# Azerbaijan-Armenia Conflict: Will Peace Prevail? | Geeta's World, Ep 63

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 3 Oct 2023, 39 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/57042743/03_oct_23_gw_ep_63_mix_3_oct_128.mp3

Last week, as the world's attention remained fixated on the diplomatic row with Canada, a significant and alarming development unfolded in the Caucasus when Thousands of ethnic Armenians fled from Nagorno-Karabakh following the region's surrender to Azerbaijan on September 20th. This region is home to a majority of approximately 120,000 ethnic Armenians. What transpired was the resurgence of a long-standing conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan. The Lachin Corridor, a vital road, serves as the sole connection between the Republic of Armenia and the population of Nagorno-Karabakh. This corridor plays a crucial role in supplying essential goods, and residents in Nagorno-Karabakh have reported severe shortages of basic necessities like food and medication in recent months. Meanwhile, Azerbaijan has accused Armenia of using this corridor to transport military supplies, a claim strongly denied by Armenia. Baku, Azerbaijan’s capital, has also asserted that it offered food and aid through an alternate route, but Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh refused to accept it. Only recently, Azeri forces attacked Stepanakert, forcing the separatists to hand over full control to Baku. The conflict still claimed many lives, enabled mass displacement and triggered turmoil across the wider region. And another major humanitarian crisis is looming on the horizon. Given these unfolding events, Our host Anna Priyadarshini and foreign affairs editor at India Today, TV Today Network Geeta delve into the core of this conflict. They seek to understand why this war has resurfaced, explore the underlying reasons, examine the roles of Russia and the United States in this crisis, and assess the global implications of the refugee crisis that has arisen as a result. Listen in! Produced by Anna Priyadarshini Sound Mix by Kapil Dev Singh

## Transcript

[0:00] This is India Today podcasts. What unfolded in the CAUCUSUS region was the resurgence
[0:08] of a protracted conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Following the surrender of Nagorno Karabak
[0:15] to Azerbaijan. Thousands of ethnic Armenia's were forced to flee the region. Armenia
[0:21] pursives Russia, It's traditional ally, as having betrayed them. And also meanwhile,
[0:26] Armenia held joint exercises with the US forces earlier this month. Can the
[0:30] US be substituted as an ally to Armenia Now it's a little late in the
[0:35] day, but yes, the US has been working with both as Baijan and
[0:39] Armenia, and many of the region's ethnic Armenians fear they have no future in
[0:44] Nagorno Karabak. So is there any scope of peace being instilled in the region.
[0:50] Can never say never in in geopolitics. It all depends on how Armenia
[0:54] is going to play its hand. But there's some certainty whether it's the West
[0:58] or Russia who don't see it to our many things, but on this one
[1:00] have said, well, it was always internationally recognized as a Bijani territory.
[1:07] Hello, I'm anna PREDESSIONI with India Today TV's Foreign Affairs editor Geita Mohan,
[1:14] where with Geta's astute and incisive crasp of world affairs, we delve into all
[1:19] that is urgent and pressing in world politics and comprehend how these developments in other
[1:25] countries could shape India's global ambitions. Of being a wish for Guru, Let's
[1:30] untravel Geta's World. Hello and welcome. This is the third sixty third episode
[1:38] of Geta's World. And from my voice, you can actually understand that this
[1:42] is not as too as opposed to what Geita wanted, because I have realized
[1:48] you're very serious. You wanted me to be outside the studio. Yeah,
[1:55] I am in the studio. Unlike your wish, I want you to be
[1:59] in the studio. I want you to allow me to be not in this
[2:01] world. I'm sorry, but that is not going to happen. But yeah,
[2:08] I mean this time, but we're recording it because she's going on a
[2:12] holiday and we'll talk about a larger we'll give a larger perspective on a current
[2:19] developing story developing. So yeah, actually, and we wanted to, you
[2:23] know, take up some topic that would actually not be dated. And but
[2:29] I realized that Geta wanted us to do something on this conflict between these two
[2:36] countries, which is Armenia and Azaid by job which I had, I mean,
[2:42] I had no idea. I had to read up a lot for this,
[2:46] and I'm sure like many listeners here thank you, and may listeners here
[2:51] as well might not be knowing about it. So before we begin, I'll
[2:55] give a brief to it and then Geta can all add on. So what
[3:00] exactly happened is that, you know, we remained fixated on the diplomatic route
[3:07] with Canada. There was a significant and alarming development that unfolded in the Caucusus
[3:13] region when thousands of ethnic Armenians they fled from this region which is called Nago
[3:21] No Karabac. So what happened exactly is that this region was finally surrendered to
[3:27] Azerbaijan on September twentieth. And this has like a background story to it will
[3:32] come to that. But apart from this, like what exactly transpired was the
[3:38] resurgence of this long standing conflict between these two countries. And there's a particular
[3:44] corridor which is called the Latin Corridor. It is a vital rule that serves
[3:49] as the sole connection between the Republic of Armenia and the population of this region
[3:53] Nago No Karabac, and this corridor plays a very crucial role in supplying essential
[4:00] goods and and the residents here in this region, Karabac region, they have
[4:04] reported that they're facing severe shortages of basic necessities like food and medication in recent
[4:12] months. And meanwhile, Azerbaijan they have accused Armenia of using this corridor to
[4:18] transport military supplies, which is a claim that Armenia strongly denies. And Baku,
[4:27] Azerbaijan's capital, they have also asserted that it offered food and aid through
[4:31] an alternate route, but Armenians in this region refused to accept it. So,
[4:39] you know, it's it's kind of complex, very you know, like
[4:46] like globally. Also there's a you know, like an implication to it because
[4:48] there's a refugee crisis which is going on. So we'll try to understand and
[4:53] Russia and the USS rule, the European Union rule also you know comes through.
[4:59] But before that, like I said that, it's like the current situation
[5:03] that is unfolding between these two countries is undoubtedly the product of a very long
[5:10] and violent history. Geta but wanted to understand, like me and many others
[5:16] like me, why do we hear so little about these two countries and mainstream
[5:21] news media unless like a major event like this occurs. There was a time
[5:26] when Azerbaijan Armenia, the conflict between them, posts the Soviet Union and the
[5:31] fall of Soviet Union did not really make news. Not many in our parts
[5:36] of the world followed it because the geopolitical ramifications of Naga Karabaka and the Armenia
[5:44] Azerbaijan crisis is not as much as the other conflicts that we are seeing that
[5:48] have huge ramifications. Today. Anna, we are in a world where there
[5:54] are so many conflicts in so many parts of the world. Some have taken
[5:58] consumed we have more of our time than many other issues. The only reason
[6:03] why in twenty twenty, when it when, when it interrupted again and as
[6:08] a Bijan again tried to take the Carrabac region back and and wage to war
[6:15] against our Menia and the and the autonomous oblast that had come into being.
[6:23] Although internationally nag Karabak is recognized as a territory territory so it came to light
[6:30] is because I think if we look at it from Indian Indian viewers and listeners
[6:36] perspective, there has been a growing interest in conflict stories and there has been
[6:44] so that's why it was carried a lot in Indian media even in twenty twenty.
[6:47] And there is a growing interest in how a conflict impacts are part of
[6:54] the world also global politics, and we've seen that with West Asia, many
[6:59] of the many of the pulls and pushes in West Asia, how that has
[7:03] impacted the oil economy, so on and so forth. This time around,
[7:09] we're looking at an eruption, but we're also looking at a cease fire.
[7:13] And finally, you wouldn't say this is the end of the conflict, but
[7:19] it certainly is a place whereas a Bijan and Armenia are in where maybe for
[7:28] a long haul, this is a decisive move by as a Bijan, which
[7:35] kind of when it comes to Nagonakaraba and a cease fire, because the lactually
[7:41] three decades, Yes, it took three decades, three days it did this.
[7:45] Yes, yeah, that's also because I think there was a so there
[7:49] are a lot of countries involved in the in the conflict. You have the
[7:55] West, you have Europe, you have the United States of America and you
[8:00] have Russia playing a major role as as as Soviet Union and Armenia as a
[8:07] Bijan being part of the Soviet Union, they were the since makers, yes,
[8:11] since the since the fall of Soviet Union and the state's coming up.
[8:16] That's why they hold military importance in the region. They were the peacekeepers.
[8:22] They still hold the Larchin Corridor, and Larchin Corridor is very important. If
[8:28] one opens the map and sees as a Bijan, Armenia Nagono Karabak and the
[8:35] Larchin Corridor connects Nagono Karabac to Armenia. Why is that important? Because yeah,
[8:41] it is important because they're the I mean, the region itself has majority
[8:46] in Armenians ethnicity, So the Armenian ethnic population of Nagono Karabak are leaving.
[8:56] What happened is that the squeeze came in when Azabaijan moved and this military assault
[9:03] to take over or take back however you want to put it. Nagano Karabak
[9:09] happened with a squeeze on the AID as well, so those who were there
[9:13] within the Lachin Corridor was shut by Azerbaijan, and they blockaded the entire Yea
[9:20] so no aid could go in. And as Abijan told the Armenians within Karabak
[9:26] to take or accept the aid that is coming in from the Azerbaijani side,
[9:35] which certainly was to them an issue. And of course the Red Cross also
[9:41] would send aid from this side, which is why in the conversations that took
[9:46] place, the tripartite conversation between or among Russia Armenian Azerbaijan, the Russian forces
[9:54] certainly allowed the cease fire and opening of the Lachin Corridor greed by Azerbaijan,
[10:00] which would not just allow aid to move in. They shutted saying that apart
[10:03] from aid, also weapons come in, so on and so forth. So
[10:07] not just aid come in, but also a very important route for Armenian ethnic
[10:13] population to leave. So there is a massive exodus of the Armenians from Nagar
[10:20] Nakarabaki leaving the region for Armenia. And this comes at a time and as
[10:26] Abijahan is saying that they will all those who live there will be protected.
[10:31] But the animosity and they said that all those who are sympathizers of the autonomous
[10:39] the separatist faction will not be entertained. But you know, there's a thin
[10:43] line between those who were a part of the of the faction, the separatist
[10:50] faction, those who weren't. And anyway, if you're living in that community,
[10:54] you are looking up to that leader because you've been a part of that
[10:58] region for so long. So it is a thin line. So all those
[11:03] who think that they will be treated very badly are leaving, which means just
[11:07] about just about almost all of that they are trying to leave. And what
[11:11] do they leave behind. They leave behind not just their homes, their lives,
[11:16] but they also leave behind the elders who are buried there, their ancestors
[11:20] who are buried there. So you know, I was listening to a few
[11:24] people and there are some videos I would not say that you know, as
[11:28] a Bijan will be doing this to every individual, but the videos, some
[11:31] of them are not really nice. It's really sad to see ill treatment.
[11:37] And then it's also sad to see people heartbroken that they're they're leaving everything that
[11:41] they built over years and decades and generations and such as the faces of the
[11:46] conflicts that that that is the most any conflict because we've covered conflict, any
[11:52] conflict, Anna, the saddest bit of that conflict is the human story and
[11:58] the tool it takes on humanity as a whole, and which is what we're
[12:01] seeing unfold in in Nagano Karabak as well. True, and you know,
[12:09] like, of course you summarized it quite nicely for the listeners, but still
[12:16] I had some doubts when you speak of the Soviet era, you know,
[12:20] and then the war again in twenty twenty, and these are the two defining
[12:24] wars that actually shaped the face of the region. But I wanted to understand
[12:31] that earlier. You know, when Nagono Karabac with a majority I mean in
[12:35] population and Azerbaijan Beijani minorities, they were under I mean they were under Russian
[12:43] Empire until nineteen eighteen. So at that point, when the Russian Empire collapsed
[12:50] in nineteen eighteen, both these communities they formed separate countries and contested control of
[12:58] this region. Okay, Then three years later, the Soviet the Soviet Union,
[13:03] conquered the entire Caucuses and it redrew boundaries, and as a result,
[13:09] what happened is that the Karabak region, it became a semi autonomous area within
[13:16] the Azerbaijani Republic. Now that's what it is. And despite being this Armenian
[13:22] majority, So do you think that could it be that the very seats of
[13:28] this enduring dispute were sown during this period only under the Russian Empire's influence?
[13:35] That why would they when they know that this is majority. You know,
[13:39] I know, it's not that simptome. It's a very important question, and
[13:43] it's a very important perspective Anna that you add. Every conflict that we're seeing
[13:48] today is about ethnicity and land anywhere, look within or look outside. Yeah,
[14:00] look at Israel, look at Kashmir. To a certain extent, ethnicity,
[14:07] religion, land, Land is a part in an integral part of a
[14:13] state, and state cannot change ethnicity the ethnicity if they have more affinity to
[14:22] the bordering country, region, neighborhood area, or even not to another country
[14:28] as a whole. If we take Israel for an example, that's where the
[14:33] conflict begins. That's where the problem lies. And if the country of the
[14:41] state in question is not able to assimilate people, not become inclusive, or
[14:48] that is lacking, or there is a difference or there are those factions who
[14:52] say it, but we need a separate state for whatever reason, that becomes
[14:56] a problem, So Nagona Karaba. Also the underlying problem is ethnicity and land.
[15:03] It was very clear after the fall of the Russian Empire they were they
[15:07] were for a very brief period, for a very brief period, independent states,
[15:13] and then we had Soviet Union. But when Soviet Union came, a
[15:16] lot of people say that were there no problems. Then when a bigger state
[15:22] is controlling the entire country the region, Yeah, then whatever problems they had
[15:30] were within the largest state, so they could not have wars. They had
[15:37] questions and problems. And then when the borders were drawn in Agorno Karabac became
[15:41] a part of Azerbaijan and was declared that these factions continued to break up of
[15:50] the Soviet Union and the states came about, and then they said we want
[15:52] our separate state. And since then the war has continued for that. And
[15:58] then you had support coming in from Armenia for this, this region that was
[16:04] trying to declare itself. It was already autonomous in many ways, but that
[16:08] was also trying to declare itself a separate state. But after the arrest of
[16:14] Reuben of ar dan Jan, who was the who's who's controlling this part of
[16:22] of Arstak region. Nagano Karabak has been arrested, so it almost feels definite,
[16:32] definitive or definite in the fate of Nagano Karabak being a part of Azerbaijan.
[16:41] Armenians who are a huge population within the Armenian ethnic population, huge population
[16:48] within. We'll have to decide whether if they want to or they don't want
[16:52] to. There are many who are actually saying we'll come back to our homeland.
[16:56] It all depends on how things span out for those who stay back or
[17:00] those who don't leave or can't leave to see whether they can come back.
[17:04] But there are many others who are saying I'm never coming back. That's it
[17:08] because people have been longing for peace for a very long time. Nobody wants
[17:14] to live in such uncertainty where you build your entire life in a city in
[17:19] a place and then you're uprooted overnight with nothing. People have fled with almost
[17:26] nothing to show for and again leaving your loved ones, some of them buried
[17:37] there, some still living, but can all be taken behind, and then
[17:41] leaving to go and live in Armenia and then over there also it is going
[17:47] to be difficult for them. So it is a very different situation. But
[17:49] the situation changed internationally. You see all the players. We're trying to broker
[17:56] peace and be a part of both. You had arms sales by Russia to
[18:00] Azerbaijan and Armenia, your arm sales from US to Armenia and as so,
[18:07] and now you have calls, you have calls for ces, fire, this,
[18:12] that and the rest. Samantha Power who was in Armenia looking into all
[18:18] this. She has the USAID who was looking into and she was former ambassador
[18:23] of US to the UN looking into the aid that is coming in and so
[18:29] on, and s what she was speaking to the media when somebody was there
[18:32] from from a far shouted and said, go back. If you're not going
[18:34] to sanction as Abijan, you are nothing to us. You're doing nothing,
[18:38] You're not helping us. So the inaction by the West, the inaction by
[18:47] all the stakeholders against as Abijan, has been a problem is exposed. And
[18:52] everybody knows that you have left them, left the Armenians to fend for themselves.
[19:02] Yeah, and very interestingly, you know this was about to be my
[19:07] next question, because the international community's rule here has been like okay, somebody
[19:11] is an applied Okay, how I need to you know, profit out of
[19:15] it. And that has been Russia's approach, Turkey's approach, US's approach,
[19:22] of course, a very oil rich and resource rich region. Money tie yeah
[19:27] yeah, so uh but you know, I was reading this piece that was
[19:33] published in the Al Jazeera Al Jazeera, and I think this person he said
[19:37] that, you know, after like Armenian forces they won the first War,
[19:47] displacing thousands of ethnic a series, the international community failed to pressure Armenians to
[19:53] engage in talks with Azerbaisa for a sustainable peace deal. Instead, what they
[19:59] did they just turned a blind eye to simmering tensions there and even profited from
[20:03] Azerbachans military preparations by selling weapons Israel. Turkey. Russia also benefited. So
[20:11] like when we can say at that point in time, the Russian Empire was
[20:15] to be blamed. But even after like so many years, when in nineteen
[20:22] ninety four itself, you had this edge, like you could have doused the
[20:26] fire between the two countries and have asserted like piece of cords between the two
[20:30] you did not so like, why wasn't me. That's what is very different
[20:36] over here. You know, if you look at Russia, Ukraine, countries
[20:38] the West have taken sides. Israel Iran sides have been taken. Yeah,
[20:44] you know, Saudi Iran sides have been taken. But in this case,
[20:49] everybody was out to get what they could best and still have influence in the
[20:55] region. But little did they think, or maybe they weren't attention because there's
[21:00] so much of you know, global developments, whether if it's China, the
[21:03] South China Sea, Russia, Ukraine, Iran, the whole of West Asia,
[21:08] Africa, so much happening that you didn't realize. As a Bijan economically
[21:15] has grown strength by strength, and they invested in the military. They thrown
[21:19] invested through Turkey, through and through, and Turkey's position in this was absolutely
[21:27] clear. They have never taken jumped ship from one to the other. They
[21:33] have been very clearly supporting as a bit. But on the contrary, Russia's
[21:37] role is quite muddled here because it although it said because because Russia, so
[21:41] if it was if both were your states, you have to be the peace
[21:45] broker. How are you to take sites? But look at the West Yeah,
[21:52] they were all in it to sell and to engage to see whoever has
[21:56] the resource rich region to be able to gain to gain out of it.
[22:02] So which is why today they stand exposed. There is a lot of heartburn,
[22:07] but also a lot of anger and outrage with the fact that no,
[22:11] no sanctions have come about. All of them are welcoming the ceasefire and saying
[22:17] but nobody realizes that the ceasefire has come at a cost of Armenian losing land,
[22:22] which, by the way, de facto and now because of the military
[22:30] operation is as a Bijar territory. Yeah, it's internationally also recognizing. So
[22:37] there's nothing much that can be done apart from the fact that how is as
[22:41] a Bijar going to treat the Armenian ethnic population. Most of them are very
[22:48] scared and they're leaving and like specifically, you know, they also operate on
[22:55] this idea of revenge. Right, they did this in nineteen ninety four,
[22:57] So why would I mean, of course, if you're international criticism, but
[23:03] I don't think that is like a ethnic strife is all about that. Anna
[23:07] any part of the world. Look at the ethnic strife in any part of
[23:11] the world. It is all historical. In your generation, you are fighting
[23:15] for what the other side did to your previous generation or the generation before that.
[23:22] Ethnic strife fight for land is all about the past, not about the
[23:29] present, certainly not about the future, because the future is so muddled and
[23:34] over here it is so so again Internationally, one will have to see how
[23:40] this pans out. For now, it almost seems definite, but you never
[23:45] know what cards Armenia has. It is a loss for Armenia for now,
[23:52] and with the leadership taken in taken into custody, we don't see much of
[24:02] the movement for a separate state continue because as Abijan is going to come down
[24:10] very heavily on those who seek succession, and which is why the army in
[24:15] population thinks that they will be at the receiving end of the Azerbaijani wroth.
[24:22] And but the international community is monitoring. Larchin Corridor is a very very important
[24:29] and a decision to keep it open is a very important one because they had
[24:33] really squeezed the region by blockading the larch In corridor. But there are two
[24:38] other There's one other corridor that is coming about the option of connectivity, where
[24:47] through which the Red Cross will be sending aid to the region from but that
[24:56] still does not take away the importance, the strategic and significance of Lachin Corridor,
[25:03] which is now open and completely under Russian control. Yeah, and amid
[25:08] all this, we discussed Russia and the access to the Latin corridor and they
[25:15] are dam what is it dam m akh Dam road from Azerbaijan. It relied
[25:22] heavily on Russian peace peacekeepers deployed in twenty twenty. But Armenia's Prime minister,
[25:30] he apparently he made an interesting comment that he said that Armenia's reliance on Russia
[25:36] as a single source for security was a strategic error and that Russia's focus and
[25:42] military resources have shifted to the conflict in Ukraine. So Russia spontaneously left the
[25:49] region, leaving this Karabak region in a very precarious state. You know,
[25:56] I was wondering, and they also like, it is true, it is
[26:00] true that the Russians were focused so much on the war, Yeah, that
[26:06] they did not focus on this region, and they did think that it,
[26:08] yes, and they did think that maybe they have time in hand, not
[26:14] realizing that as a Bijon was preparing. In fact, the first onslot was
[26:18] in twenty twenty during COVID times, so Asian waits for a moment, a
[26:25] brief gap to go and you know, maybe be able to capture. Back
[26:32] then there was a massive, you know response also, but this time around
[26:37] they just did succeed in taking Armenia out. Yeah. No, the point
[26:44] where I was coming at was that the fact that you know, Russia's ignorance
[26:48] to this part cost Armenia's friendship, so to say. And meanwhile, Armenia
[26:55] held joint exercises with the US forces earlier this month. You know, it's
[27:00] quite farfeit, but like, can we actually say that they can the US
[27:06] be substituted as an ally to Armenia now although USS shift is already there,
[27:11] I mean, the side is already chosen, but still it's a little late
[27:15] in the day. But yes, the US has been has been working with
[27:18] both as a Bijan and Armenia. But if you look at the statements that
[27:22] have come from the White House, from the State Department, they have welcomed
[27:26] the cease fire for now. They're saying that the decision has been weighed,
[27:30] we just wanted to be upheld and that there should be no case of genocide
[27:34] or ethnic lensing, so on and so forth, and age should reach.
[27:38] So the statements are not like the statements we hear from us during the when
[27:44] when we heard during the Russia Ukraine War or for that matter, you know
[27:48] on Iran, it's not it's not a stand that they've taken. But are
[27:53] they going to engage Armenia. They do, they will surely see a military
[27:57] opportunity over there, and at a time when Russia's influence is something that they'd
[28:03] want to counter, to engage with Armenia will become all the more important for
[28:08] Armenia that is feeling very let down with Russia because they're saying that everything in
[28:14] the ceasefire and the talks went there as a Bijan way. So they did
[28:18] have conversation, they held talks, but nothing was to the advantage of Armenia.
[28:26] Everything was aligned with what as Abijan wants. It was almost like,
[28:30] okay, you just take what you want and end this conflict, end this
[28:36] bloodshed. It was almost like that. And that is also because of the
[28:40] status right now that Army as a Bijan has built itself up to Armenia is
[28:48] a long way from from what as a Bijan has achieved, but like like
[28:55] you said, a policy decision to diversify could be something that they be looking
[29:00] at. It's just one region that's a conflict area, and there is nothing
[29:04] that Azerbaijan and Armenia would be doing to each other if not for Nagona Kabak.
[29:10] And you know, so, Armenia has now the time and space to
[29:15] engage and see how they want to diversify their foreign policy and strategic options and
[29:22] which they will. But will they actually look at going back into the space
[29:29] to recapture something. We'll have to wait and see. The cost of maintaining
[29:33] a conflict such as Nagono Karabak in itself is very very high, although because
[29:40] of its resources, it is a very important region and that's the reason why
[29:44] they neither side want to give up. And Armenia had the advantage of having
[29:48] such a huge Armenian ethnic population in Nagono Karabak. But with the leadership now
[29:56] taken away, with Azerbaijan in control, we'll see how things pan out in
[30:03] the region for the next few months and a year or so to come and
[30:07] see how Asabajan is going to deal with this region. If the majority of
[30:15] the Armenians leave Armenians ethnic population leaves NK and goes to Armenia. Then there's
[30:23] hardly a foothold that Armenia will have in the region itself. So it's a
[30:30] huge loss on the strategic front for hand, the military front for Armenia,
[30:37] but for they certainly will be looking at diversifying, having more strategic options.
[30:45] But yeah, I mean that like it makes sense buttary options. But still
[30:48] I think it's quite like they are at cross roads because still if you see,
[30:55] Russia is sort of you know, the strained relations are quite apparent,
[31:00] and US also perceives this region as a pure like you know, loyal Russian
[31:06] ally, so to undo that perception is indeed like a big thing too.
[31:12] So how that will transpire, like you said, it will wait and see.
[31:17] But you know, before we end this discussion, and just wanted to
[31:19] touch upon this one last point. You were speaking about generations and human tool
[31:26] and everything, and like often in such war prone areas where you know,
[31:32] these violent bouts of fighting continue to erupt, the remnants of these cars often
[31:38] seep through generations and generations, Like you said, I was reading this BBC
[31:44] report on that had quoted It's a Zerbe Journey Service editor Cornell haall LoVa,
[31:51] who said that it sometimes surprises her how little young people in both countries don't
[31:57] know about the atrocity, Like no one tells Armenians about the Azerban Azerbaijanis who
[32:04] were killed. Likewise, young Azerbaijanis today do not hear about poke rooms of
[32:08] the Armenian people in Azerbaijani cities such as Baku and et cetera. At the
[32:14] end of the nineteen eighties. So I was just left wondering, like,
[32:17] why is it that the reminisce you know, must be seen. I mean,
[32:21] it's not like although I mean I'm not saying that I wanted, but
[32:25] it's just like a difficult to you know, grasp this fact that the Second
[32:31] War was not like very you know, decades sold has just happened in twenty
[32:37] twenties. So why this generational remnant is not seen? If you can say
[32:46] that, I mean, if you can, but it is saying that.
[32:49] But it is because again because the world has not focused on and we certainly
[32:54] have not focused on what impact Armenia as a Baijan conflict with the Nagarono Karabak
[33:00] has had on the generations living in the region. You wouldn't know, but
[33:07] if you talk about if you look at and if you speak to people over
[33:09] there, they have lived with the conflict. In fact, this generation of
[33:16] children are conflict generation. It is a conflict generation. They have seen conflict.
[33:22] They've seen it not so long ago, in the eighties to ninety four
[33:25] and then so that entire generation, my generation, our generation and the children
[33:31] who are now since twenty twenty puntil now have seen conflict. The in a
[33:40] conflict zone, in a situation where you are an autonomous region where the other
[33:45] side is always trying to get in. These are full blown wars that we're
[33:50] talking about, you know, between eighty eight, ninety four and twenty twenty
[33:53] a puntil now. But even in the interim, the tensions are felt every
[34:00] now and again. There have been tensions between Azerbaijan and Armenia, there have
[34:04] been talks. The fact that it is highly militarized, the fact that there
[34:08] are Russian peace keepers. When children see men in uniform, yeah around your
[34:15] region, then you know you're living in a conflict zone. So this is
[34:19] a generation that has lived with conflict in a conflict zone. It is a
[34:23] conflict generation. It's only that not many people outside realize the impact it has
[34:30] on their lives, or it has had on their lives, and how it
[34:34] continues to have. It's only now that there is so much uncertainty about the
[34:38] future that they have just given up, many of them saying they'll never return,
[34:44] many others hoping that they might be able to return. But again we'll
[34:47] have to see how Azerbaijan now treats its own ethnic minority population within Azerbaijan,
[34:54] and are they going to be good to them or not. You think that
[34:58] there is a chance, although you say, of course, never say never,
[35:00] but there's a chance of peace being restored in this particular region. See
[35:07] again, if you can never say never to you know. In geopolitics,
[35:13] it all depends on how Armenia is going to play its hand, what Armenia's
[35:16] next steps are going to be. But there is some certainty where whether it's
[35:22] the West or Russia, who don't see eye to eye on many things,
[35:24] but on this one have said, well, it was always internationally recognized as
[35:30] a Bijani territory, of course, so at this point in time, I'm
[35:36] looking at Russian presence, to ensure stability that this is how NATUS statusco and
[35:43] to ensure that there is no more of a of military offensive from the Armenian
[35:49] side, but also to monitor there will be a lot of international monitoring that
[35:54] there is no ethnic cleansing, genocide or suppression of the minority community in the
[36:04] Nagano Karabak area of Azerbaijan, because if you're looking at the larger as Abajan
[36:09] picture, they are they'll be considered minority although they were in a major the
[36:16] population was a majority in the Naga Karabak area. So this huge population now
[36:22] displaced with no foothold, no soft power, or no influence or hardly any
[36:30] influence. We'll have to see how ourmenium will will take its steps from here
[36:37] on, and would they have any influence in NK or not. Yeah,
[36:44] okay, I think you know a lot of my doubts actually were cleared,
[36:49] so thank you for that. It was it's a difficult topic in the sense
[36:52] that you know, there's a there's something that like they say that history replace
[36:57] itself. So this is what happened here, you know, thirty days,
[37:01] like three thirty three decades. What am I saying? Three decades. They
[37:07] were trying to you know, like knock it down, you know, change
[37:13] the history again. And this is what they gained, Like they could actually
[37:16] do it in three days. So that was something I mean very interesting to
[37:24] actually unders understand. And I hope the listeners also got to hear something like
[37:31] really insightful all the way. Uh. I think it was like a bit
[37:36] like a shorter episode rights crisp and our and our listeners will certainly be able
[37:44] to understand the basic premise of what really happened and why is there a conflict,
[37:51] and conflict is like very difficult to you know understand. I feel it's
[37:57] like you just cannot understand some countries relations with like two or three countries by
[38:02] reading one or two articles. You have to dig deep. And that is
[38:06] what I did. So thanks for that and I and the listeners out there.
[38:10] If you had any thoughts about this episode or the previous episodes, let
[38:15] us know. The number is eight five, double eight nine, double six,
[38:19] double line six and the email idea is spots at the rate in da
[38:22] today dot com. So thank you, Geita. I hope to see you
[38:28] again after I come back refreshed. While you sit here, have a good
[38:32] holiday, Anna, and thank you to our listeners for keeping us, for
[38:37] showing all the love and keeping us on the top of the podcast list.
[38:44] Yeah so thank you, thank you.

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