# BRICS Summit: Will Joining Of New Countries Turn Grouping Into China's G7 Counterweight? | Geeta's World, Ep 58

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 22 Aug 2023, 48 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/56555270/22_aug_23_gw_ep_58_22_aug_128.mp3

The 15th BRICS summit, comprising Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa, kicked off today in Johannesburg, South Africa. The summit spans three days, culminating on August 24. Reverberating with significance, this summit emerges as a beacon of optimism, particularly in the aftermath of the Ukrainian conflict. In this episode, our host Anna Priyadarshini and foreign affairs editor at India Today, TV Today Network Geeta Mohan discuss the summit's importance, its implications for India, and other crucial facets that define BRICS' role in India's contemporary geo-economic and geopolitical strategy. What does BRICS bring to the table? This summit is of many firsts. This is the first in-person summit since the COVID-19 pandemic and it's the first in-person meeting since the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Is there potential for BRICS, as a collective forum, to contribute positively to the ongoing peace efforts pertaining to Russia's war in Ukraine? And how will the negotiation over letting in more countries play out since it seems inevitable that the BRICS would soon become an instrument of Chinese global diplomacy will the BRICS? Listen in! Produced by Anna Priyadarshini Sound Mix by Nitin Rawat

## Transcript

[0:00] This is India Today podcasts. The fifteenth Bricks Summit comprising Brazil, Russia,
[0:08] India, China and South Africa kicked off today in South Africa's Johannesburg. But
[0:14] is there a potential for Bricks as a collective forum to contribute positively to the
[0:19] ongoing peace efforts pertaining to Russia's war in Ukraine? But in terms of discussing
[0:25] peace and the Russia Ukraine War, that certainly will be only a part of
[0:30] the bigger agenda. Why Bricks is not going to be the space where Russia
[0:34] Ukraine war will dominate is because Russian President Vladimir Putin is not going to attend
[0:40] this summit in person. And how will the negotiation over letting in more countries
[0:46] play out? Since it seems inevitable that the Bricks would soon become an instrument
[0:51] of Chinese global diplomacy. Countries that are showing interest in joining the Bricks they
[0:56] are the global South. So yes, China did have a huge influential role,
[1:00] but I see that slowly and steadily India is also playing a very important
[1:07] role within the Bricks. Hello, I'm anna PREDESSIONI with India to Day TV's
[1:11] Foreign Affairs editor Geta Mochan, where with Geta's astute and incisive crasp of world
[1:18] affairs, we delve into all that is urgent and pressing in world politics and
[1:23] comprehend how these developments in other countries could shape India's global ambitions of being a
[1:30] Wishwa Guru. Let's untravel Geeta's world. So this is the fifty eighth episode
[1:37] and Geetha is joining me via zoom. How are you geta? How is
[1:42] the week hectic? Is always because, but more hectic than before because we
[1:48] have the G twenty summit coverage plan. There's a lot happening in terms of
[1:53] incoming and outgoing visits. So we're just trying to, yeah, trying to
[2:00] iron out all the little details of how we're going to cover the G twenty,
[2:06] which is not that far away. Yeah, actually, I think just
[2:08] two weeks away, just two week from now, and before that Prime Minister
[2:13] Moody will also be going. He's now in Johnsburg, South Africa, and
[2:16] after that he comes back in ches ahead of the G Twentyana, he'll also
[2:21] be going to Jakarta for the Asian India and the East Asia summits. So
[2:27] very important, very important, summits taking place. It's actually raining summits from
[2:32] the su to Briggs to g twenty you name it. And then you have
[2:38] all the leaders of the global southcoming together. So important important few weeks now
[2:44] for us, true, I mean this week we are basing our discussion on
[2:49] the Brick Summit itself. It's the fifteenth Brick Summit. And a little bit
[2:53] of background as guitar, you mentioned that Prime Minister Moody is joining there and
[2:59] there's several actually there are several anticipations bilateral meetings that is to unfold spans three
[3:06] days, which means that it will culminate on twenty fourth or August. Now,
[3:10] this summit, it reverberates with significance because it is sort of, you
[3:15] know, emerging as a beacon of optimism, particularly in the aftermath of the
[3:21] Ukrainian conflict, and the Western world is you know, watching this summit very
[3:27] closely. In this episode, will our discourse will sort of you know,
[3:30] center around the summit's importance, It's implications for India and other crucial facets that
[3:37] define bricks role in India's contemporary geoeconomic and geopolitical strategy. What exactly does Bricks
[3:45] bring to the table, and you know, what is the strategic logic behind
[3:50] India's continuing membership in Bricks because of time and again it has been facing criticism.
[3:55] And besides that, this summit is of many firsts because this is the
[4:00] first in person summit since the COVID nineteen pandemic, and it's the first in
[4:04] person meeting since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. So we'll deal with all these
[4:11] important bits one by one. GETA. But first, you know about what
[4:15] we have been talking about on our podcast and has been the center of discussion
[4:19] globally to the Russia Ukraine War. You know, like, given that this
[4:24] summit is the first in person meeting since the conflict began, and considering that
[4:29] Bricks deliberations, you know, they are often seen as having a counter Western
[4:34] stance, could this event potentially reshape the discourse around this, you know,
[4:42] prolonged war because you know, because here we are, like after two years
[4:46] of his invasion, where we have also discussed on our podcast, you know
[4:50] that peace efforts have now started to seep in and recently Saudi Arabia had sort
[4:56] of you know, taken this responsibility of mediating a piece ac but we did
[5:00] not see any fruitful results as such, because the Piece of God had every
[5:05] country joining in except for Russian and that has it had its reasons and for
[5:10] that you'll have to visit revisit our earlier episodes. But here, you know,
[5:15] is there a possibility that this Bricks Summit with China's participation, might play
[5:20] a role in shaping new perspective on you know, peace accords. Well,
[5:26] it certainly is going to be a very important meeting because it's not just the
[5:30] Bricks leaders, but over forty countries have been invited from the global South,
[5:36] from from the Arab world, is also Africa by President Trauma Forsa, which
[5:42] clearly shows and spells out the importance these countries are attaching to bricks and so
[5:48] yes, in the future, maybe bricks could play a more important role as
[5:54] peace maker, piece broker, and should there be an expansion because a lot
[5:58] of a lot of these kinds trees are looking at joining or being a part
[6:01] of bricks, which is looking like the other, uh, the other end
[6:05] of the spectrum when it comes to bodies like Quad, like ipaf Aucus and
[6:14] even for that matter, the G seven. Over here you have Brazil,
[6:18] Russia, India, China, South Africa and so there are other countries that
[6:23] are now want to join to join forces. But in terms of discussing peace
[6:27] and the Russia Ukraine War, that certainly will be only a part of the
[6:31] bigger agenda. There are many other important areas that will be discussed anna.
[6:35] But to put your first put in perspective, why bricks is not going to
[6:41] be the space where Russia Ukraine War will dominate is because Russian President Vladimir Putin
[6:46] is not going to attend this U this summit in person. Now, what
[6:50] happened was that they're an arrest rest warrant the International Criminal Court, and and
[7:01] South Africa is a signatory of the ICC and has ratified the ICC, so
[7:10] they will they would have had to honor their rest warrant. Although South Africa
[7:14] said that there's going to be no such things. Should Russian President Vladimir Putin
[7:18] attend their summit. I suppose the decision was taken that he will not participate,
[7:24] and he will participate in the summit virtually and in Johnsburg he will be
[7:29] represented by Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. So that's what has been the deal.
[7:35] Now, when you already know that such as the scenario and the situation Russia
[7:41] Ukraine war will come up. It will be discussed to talk about food and
[7:45] energy secure in context of food and energy security and stability in the region.
[7:49] But beyond that as as as a conversation and deliberations to bring about peace.
[7:58] I don't think that is of the Bricks agenda, Bricks expansion, Bricks bank,
[8:03] which means dealing in local currency, country currencies, economic cooperation. And
[8:11] then of course the Friends of Bricks meeting that is going to take place at
[8:15] the fact end, our areas that are going to be the main focus of
[8:20] the of the summit. Yeah, and like coming to India because you know
[8:24] what, why it matters for India is sort of the bigger questionnaire apart from
[8:28] the expansion plan. You know, I remember talking about this when we were
[8:33] discussed in sark You know, where India is the dominant, dominant partner while
[8:39] in other organizations like the SEO Bricks then there is a Rick Lashenda. China
[8:46] India's dependence is you know, like concerning since these forums were founded or are
[8:54] dominated by China. Now there's being the first in person meet after the LAS
[9:00] the standoff began in twenty twenty, and you know, a bilateral meeting between
[9:03] Shijin Ping and mister Moody is sort of expected along the lines. Do you
[9:09] think such a summit, you know, has a tendency or like probability to
[9:15] resolving the LC situation. Why I asked this is because like, given the
[9:18] fact that's ultimately you know, a China dominated forum, so could India possibly
[9:24] be able to hold talks and engage diplomatically so that its interests are not encroaged
[9:31] or like compromised upon. Well again, bilateral issues, particularly in multilateral flora,
[9:39] are not areas that are discussed in detail. Of course, having peaceful
[9:46] and brotherly relationship is something that any forum really pushes for. But over here,
[9:52] will it dominate the conversations at the Bricks Summit, I don't think so.
[9:58] But what is going to happen to day is after the Bricks Business Forum,
[10:03] there is going to be leaders retreat. Anna. That's the place where
[10:07] informal conversations take place amongst the Bricks leaders. And I suppose it's because such
[10:13] a small gathering and they'll all be in a beautiful place with a beautiful environment
[10:18] and all of that. We will have to wait and see whether if that
[10:22] will be an opportunity for the two leaders to really have a conversation. If
[10:28] you see, even in Bali, and now what happened was during the Bali
[10:31] summit, there was no structured bilateral meeting between the two sides. But what
[10:37] happened was during the formal dinner that was hosted by President of Indonesia. By
[10:45] the President, they actually had a brief conversation. Initially, they maintained,
[10:50] the Indian side especially maintained that it was just exchange of pleasantries, although we
[10:54] continue to report that there was more than just pleasantries because it was a longer
[10:58] conversation and I could see it in the video. And so many months later,
[11:03] the Chinese Foreign Ministry only recently put out that yes, they had a
[11:05] bilateral conversation and which again the ministry were still affairs accepted yet that yes,
[11:11] there was a conversation that was beyond just exchange of pleasantries that they did talk
[11:16] about bringing about or resolving the outstanding issues between the two sides. So over
[11:22] here, the dinner that will be hosted by the President of South Africa,
[11:28] President Rama Coosa and the business leaders retreat at the summer place is going to
[11:35] be a moment and an opportunity for the two leaders to meet. Apart from
[11:39] that, there could be a structured bilateral between the two sides, but that
[11:43] has not been confirmed by either side. Normally when it is Indian and China,
[11:46] and they normally keep it very close to the very end of or moments
[11:52] before the meeting is acted to take place, so we'll get to know closer
[11:56] to the structured dialogue should there be one. But I an opportunity tonight during
[12:03] the Bricks leaders retreat and the dinner, and yes, the two leaders will
[12:07] have to talk because what has happened at the LAC right now, with these
[12:11] empty number of commander level talks and diplomatic level talks between the two sides,
[12:18] there has been no breakthrough. The Chinese president is due to come to New
[12:24] Telly for the G twenty summit. When he come, will there be forward
[12:28] movement or not? It all depends on leadership intervention. These official level talks
[12:33] can continue like they are, but unless and until there is leadership intervention,
[12:39] I don't see a solution. So at the end of the day, unlessen
[12:41] until there is political will at the top. Where Shijin Ping agrees with Trime
[12:46] Minister Modi that there needs to be withdrawal of the Chinese forces from the areas
[12:50] that they're sitting on. There is going to be no forward movement. And
[12:54] already we have so much of controversy with regards to whether if the Chinese forces
[13:00] are on the Indian side or not, whether they are in the no man's
[13:05] land or the puffer zone that they call, which both sides should be allowed
[13:09] to to to patrol. A lot of controversy surrounding the the LAC in the
[13:18] Ladak sector, the Eastern Ladak sector. But the fact is that unless and
[13:22] until the leaders really agree and tell their their their people top down that this
[13:30] needs to be done, there is going to be no movement at the border.
[13:33] Interestinglyther that you pointed out that you know, I mean, there could
[13:37] be discussions, there could be meetings, but the stand off being the dominant
[13:41] factor is not going to happen. But you know, like I was thinking
[13:46] that for India, it's indied kind of important to tread this like more carefully
[13:54] and uh not upset China at any level, because considering the fact that after
[14:01] two weeks, like we mentioned the beginning, that after two weeks. India's
[14:03] G twenty is in line. It is to host it and we know that
[14:07] despite several G twenty meetings held, we have not been able to deliver a
[14:13] joint communicate in any of the minister G twenty meetings and the hindrance and reaching
[14:18] are joint communication appears to be, of course, the ongoing Russia Korean War,
[14:24] the inclusion of the Bali paragraphs, you know, which is being opposed
[14:28] by Russia and China both. As Russia says the Bali paragraphs they don't take
[14:33] into account American and European military support provided to Ukraine and the sanctions imposed on
[14:39] Russia and China says that G twenty shouldn't be focusing shouldn't be discussing geopolitical issues.
[14:46] And since this would be an opportunity for India to take China in its
[14:52] favor, India would want, you know, more cooperation from China and Russia
[14:56] both. So I want to understand that, you know, with this sure,
[15:01] can we actually expect India to adopt like a more delicate stunts if there
[15:05] is like some discussions around it while dealing with China, whether it's about Russia
[15:11] Korean whether it's the LC standoff, like a careful negotiation that you know doesn't
[15:18] upset the dragon. Well one, we should no longer be thinking about whether
[15:22] we're upsetting the dragon, per Sana. But yes, like you said,
[15:26] we have to be careful and we have to walk a very thin line.
[15:30] Now, where is that change in shift that I see? You see?
[15:33] When COVID happened and Galwan happened, India took a very very strong stand against
[15:41] China, saying that, well, we will not do business. It is
[15:45] not business as usual. Cut ties, ban exports, ban apps, so
[15:52] on and so forth. A lot of that happened somewhere down the line.
[15:56] There was a realization when COVID the second wave hit India that you cannot do
[16:03] without all the medical equipments and manufactured in China. So while we were directly
[16:07] not important from China, all the countries that gave us help or were sending
[16:12] these oxygen concentrators, so on and so forth, were Chinese manufactured oxygen concentrators
[16:19] just coming from European countries because they were the ones donating and sending and help
[16:23] coming in right, And we did not want to take anything from China,
[16:27] but anything and everything that came were all Chinese manufactured goods. They were not
[16:33] produced anywhere else but in China, so they were also sourcing from China and
[16:37] sending it to India. Having said that, there was also a realization that
[16:41] in the supply chain, the global supply chain. While there is a conversation
[16:47] to create resilience supply chain so that one country does not impact the entire global
[16:53] economy if people stopped buying, or if that country poses a threat and they
[17:00] want to do away with that country, but right now, in the current
[17:04] scenario, that is not the case. China is indispensable to global supply chains.
[17:11] That realization and looking at our own trade with China, it just seems
[17:18] like our imports have increased manifold. And while the government continued to maintain that
[17:25] you know, it's not business as usual. And now you see every time
[17:29] there's a conversation and this very same question comes up and is asked, doctor
[17:33] Jesshunka, the externalif as Minister of India now has changed his explanation to saying
[17:40] that, well, we have a problem with China. It is not going
[17:42] to be business as usual. But one needs to understand and realize that at
[17:47] this point in time, we need to continue doing business with China for whatever
[17:52] reasons that he spells out, which is the indispensable indispensability of China in the
[17:57] current scenario and scheme of things. So yes, when you are talking to
[18:03] a country like China that's aggressive but also has an advantage where the economic advantage
[18:10] over others, manufacturing advantage over others, you have to be careful. But
[18:15] not for once think that China does not need India. China needs India as
[18:21] its market. If we stop taking from China, then China will also face
[18:25] a massive economic slowdown. So it is a two way stream. But who
[18:30] needs it more? If we stop from taking from China, China will find
[18:34] other markets. Things might slow down them for them a bit because we are
[18:38] a huge market, but they will certainly only be slowed down if we stop
[18:45] taking from China. Our entire production chain will come to a screeching halt almost,
[18:52] So that's the difference. Yes, we do need to be careful with
[18:56] China, but not to the extent that we need to bow down and count
[18:59] out to China. So the negotiations will have to agree between two equals when
[19:06] it comes to strategic space. When it comes to economic space, maybe the
[19:11] bigger right now, but they see the potential India has. And China also
[19:15] does not want India to put all its eggs in the western basket. That's
[19:19] something that really irks China. Every time China sees India go more close to
[19:25] the West, they do get riled by it. They do keep saying that
[19:30] you've had an independent foreign policy. It seems like you're not following your independent
[19:34] foreign policy anymore, and don't forget right now. Even having problems with China
[19:41] does not help us because the Western front also for India is not a very
[19:47] happy, comfortable position. We are not okay with Pakistan. Anything that happens,
[19:52] China and Pakistan will always stay together. In the Russia China story,
[19:57] also a lot has changed the Russia Pakistan story, a lot has changed once
[20:03] almost want enemies today are talking, not only talking to each other. Russia's
[20:07] planning on selling some of the parts, you know, when it comes to
[20:14] military and defense sector to Pakistan. So there is a lot of change happening
[20:19] in dynamics within the region, and India has to be mindful when India goes
[20:25] into conversations and negotiations. That's why the administration might not want to rake up
[20:30] the issue, and the opposition has been raking up the issue with no answers
[20:36] coming in from the government. Even in the no confidence motion when the opposition
[20:41] spoke about about China, the Prime Minister and his response did not talk about
[20:48] what exactly his response should have been on the question on what is the reality
[20:53] on the ground is China in our territory? Is China not allowing Indian troops
[21:00] access to even the patrolling stations or patrolling areas? No response from the government
[21:07] on that front. Everything cannot be hidden under the garb of national security.
[21:14] Some things the nation is entitled to know and that should that should be discussed
[21:19] out in the open instead of being on the back foot knowing only fully well
[21:23] that when they were in the opposition, they questioned the government every time China
[21:27] did what it did, China's China's policies have not changed or irrespective of the
[21:33] government in India, whether it was the past government or this government. We
[21:37] thought that well, maybe more the Prime minister more, they will be able
[21:41] to change things with che chin Ping. When we saw all the meetings,
[21:45] the hugs, the diplomacy that we called it all of that, but it
[21:51] seems on the ground China is very clear and what it wants to do and
[21:55] how it wants to do it, do it and conduct itself, you know,
[21:59] talking about India only, uh, you know, several experts and as
[22:03] I was reading either, there were several experts who underlined that India's multidirectional foreign
[22:11] policy is guided by you know, vital interests encompassing you know, economic growth,
[22:18] there's technological progress, there's innovation, norm establishment, security reinforcement. Now,
[22:26] within this framework, two key strategic platforms have risen two prominence. First
[22:33] is bricks, which we're talking about, and the second is Quad, which
[22:37] is Australia, India, Japan and the United States. However, the quat's
[22:44] significance in India in Indian foreign policy discussions have surged, especially in the aftermath
[22:52] of the you know, twenty twenty China India India China boarder dispute that sort
[22:59] of strained by lateral ties. So I wanted to understand from you that,
[23:03] you know, given the original intention behind brick establishment, which was to counter
[23:08] the dominance of Western nations in international forums, how does India's participation in bricks
[23:15] align with its goals because particularly when the Quad, this has sort of taken
[23:22] center stage in India's foreign policy considerations. So the question being that does this
[23:29] enhanced focus on the Quad, heightened by the India China border conflict, impact
[23:37] India's engagement and priorities within the Bricks. Well, it's an interesting question,
[23:42] but you Siana, foreign policy is all about the time and you know where
[23:48] the events are taking place that are defining each country's strategic policies and foreign policy.
[23:53] Back then, when Bricks, even before Bricks and Brick Becausata Frica came
[24:00] in in twenty ten, even when Brick was originally formed, it was it
[24:07] was a grouping of countries who considered themselves emerging powers, emerging economies and thought
[24:17] that they together could work for their benefit and not to be armed twisted by
[24:23] the West. All of them did think on the same lines and how the
[24:27] West was, how the West not just traded but engaged these countries, and
[24:36] so yes, that's why, that's why the Brick came about. And remember
[24:41] even then India China had problems but went ahead with with this grouping. Today,
[24:48] China has become a bigger China has become a bigger problem for many countries,
[24:52] especially in the region and beyond when it comes to its aggressive posturing.
[24:56] For India also certainly so. So while we want to engage with China,
[25:00] we also want to engage with others who can take on China or our countering
[25:06] China. QUAD was one such grouping over here, also look at the sensitivity
[25:11] with which India wanted to handle or try to handle the grouping. Now QUAD
[25:17] is an important strategic block whose focus is the Indo Pacific, which is the
[25:25] whole breadth of the region where China wants to have a bigger play and bigger
[25:30] say. And that happened now. Back then the view was on what West
[25:36] was doing, look at the wars that were taking place, the conflicts that
[25:38] were taking place where all NATO and America had involved itself in, and whether
[25:45] it was to our advantage or not. Not really Now with Chinese aggression,
[25:51] this also is not to our advantage to have China show its aggression in the
[25:56] manner which it does, but not just us, but also our friends,
[26:00] our partners in the region and beyond. And so this entire idea of let's
[26:04] come, come, let's bring about a block that can counter China economically,
[26:11] Anna, I'm saying very clearly economically. Now, what is the distinct that
[26:17] India made. India said, QUAD is not a military block. We don't
[26:22] intend it to be a military block, because the moment it becomes a military
[26:25] block, you are taking on China directly. The other countries are not going
[26:32] to be impacted so much as much as maybe Japan and India would. But
[26:37] for us, we are direct neighbors, we have we're connected by land,
[26:44] and for us, the sensitivity of not being a part of of an anti
[26:48] China military block. All the QUAD does not call itself anti China. In
[26:52] fact, they say all like minded countries should be a part of QUAD if
[26:56] they want to be, and which includes China as well. But the idea
[27:03] is certainly China. Now China knows that everybody else knows what you know.
[27:10] The QUAD is trying to do counter aggressive countries in the region. In this
[27:14] case, the only aggressive country is China. So it is considered an anti
[27:18] China block, but not a military block. So what happened when India did
[27:23] not agree to join a military block or Japan for that matter, then came
[27:30] Aucus, which is Australia. You can the United States of America because they
[27:34] have no qualms being a part of a strategic block which is military in nature
[27:41] to take on China. And that's why Aucus came about, which is more
[27:45] of a military block. And you have all these blocks that are coming about.
[27:48] So in different time you have different for different platforms that have come about,
[27:55] different multilateral grouping to address a certain issue. Of the time, we're
[28:03] looking at more such you know, blocks and groupings coming up. What is
[28:07] I to YouTube, Israel, India, US and the UA, what is
[28:14] this? This is another block that has come about. So there are so
[28:18] many such blocks, keeping the current scenario, current geopolitics in time in mind,
[28:25] but does not mean that when you're moving forward you give up on the
[28:27] past forums. G twenty is one such it's a it's actually one of the
[28:33] most representative and big blocks that had where all other countries and regions have a
[28:38] voice, which is why Prime Minister Modi has been focusing on voice of the
[28:44] Global South that in G twenty we will talk about the bigger issues of the
[28:48] Global South. Because West also has a G seven. It used to be
[28:52] the G eight and after twenty fourteen aggression of Russia against the in the don
[28:57] bas Region and Georgia. We're seeing them having been thrown out of the G
[29:04] eight and it's now G seven. So there are different groups. Nobody's leaving
[29:08] any group to join the other, but the importance and the essence of that
[29:15] group remains. So when when India is talking in the Bricks, the conversation
[29:18] is different from when India's talking at G twenty two, when the Quad discussions
[29:22] are taking place, which is completely into Pacific focused. I don't know,
[29:26] unknowingly, you sort of through in a very nice life lesson also gather somewhere
[29:33] there when you say that when you join a new group, it doesn't mean
[29:37] that you forget the previous one, the older ones, so which it is.
[29:41] It is true for life as well. You don't forget, You don't
[29:45] forget where you come from. Why do you come from there? You know,
[29:49] it's a journey. Why you've come from there? Why were we actually
[29:52] west at one point in time? Why are we looking at a more balanced
[29:57] relationship? Why were we non aligned even before that saying that we will not
[30:02] take sides? Yeah, you know, to expand on that, we talk
[30:08] about expansion, which is sort of gaining the most you know, attraction here
[30:15] attraction here when we are talking about BRICKS, because they are more than around
[30:21] forty countries that have shown an interest in joining BRICKS and at least nineteen countries
[30:26] have applied formally for membership. And I think there's a contention between like four
[30:33] countries like Argentina, Saudi Arabia, the UA and Iran along these lines.
[30:38] Either, you know, the BRICKS has had considerable success in giving the member
[30:45] states of this grouping a good amount of bargaining power when diplomatically dealing with Western
[30:52] countries as far as I understand, and I think without going into the specifics
[30:57] and the history of everything that it has achieved, it is safe to surmise
[31:03] that, you know, being a member of BRICKS has been very helpful for
[31:07] Indian diplomacy. But the major concern is about how BRICKS is going to shape
[31:12] up in the near future. Why I say this is because the biggest question
[31:18] facing the group grouping right now is whether it should let in these new countries
[31:23] as permanent members and risk looking like a China led block to counter the West.
[31:30] But Kita, my question here is that, like, doesn't it seem
[31:34] inevitable that the BRICKS would actually soon become an instrument of Chinese global diplomacy and
[31:44] just be a tool for Beijing to challenge the US led G seven. Why
[31:49] I say this is because out of all the countries and Bricks, India is
[31:53] the only one country that is facing an ongoing border crisis with China. So
[32:00] we are actually the only country in BRICKS that is facing the direct repercussions of
[32:05] China's expansionism and growth. If you look at the other members such as South
[32:10] Africa and Brazil, being a member of the Bricks has only helped them by
[32:15] bringing them closer to China, you know, in terms of like trade partnerships,
[32:21] while Russia is now quoting on Chinese support as it continues to wage war
[32:27] in Ukraine. We spoke about China's we spoke about economies as well. That
[32:30] China's GDP is larger than you know of all other BRICKS members combined, So
[32:37] the scales are always going to be like tilted in his favor. And unless
[32:39] you're facing a border crisis with China like we are, there doesn't seem any
[32:45] reason why the other members would be opposed to letting in countries that China vouches
[32:50] for as permanent members of bricks. So, given this very uniquely difficult position
[32:55] that India finds itself in of being the only country and bricks that would want
[33:00] to control China's rise, how do you see the negotiation over letting in more
[33:07] countries play out. Well, now, there are a few things over here.
[33:10] If we talk about the SCO, that is China and Russia led primarily
[33:16] because India joined, and much later if you look at countries that are showing
[33:21] interest in joining SEO, they are countries that are actually those who do not
[33:29] have great ties with the West, but want to align themselves with a forum
[33:34] that they can deliver in and that can deliver for them because it's going to
[33:37] be very close closed group. Bricks is not that anna one because India has
[33:45] been a part of the bricks even when it was brick, and even if
[33:50] Brazil was not there, there was the ric which is again India China.
[33:53] The idea was that you need a regional forum to discuss and have converse stations
[34:00] despite and in spite of the problems the two countries face, and that they've
[34:04] been able to do all through whether it's brick, whether it's brick or now
[34:08] bricks. If you look at the interest that countries are showing. The countries
[34:14] that are showing interest in joining the bricks, they are the Global South.
[34:17] You're not looking at a European country wanting to join bricks. Why You're not
[34:22] looking at a Western developed nation like the United States of America wanting to be
[34:30] a part of bricks. Why because they don't consider it a grouping that they
[34:35] want to be a part of. They already have their G seven and then
[34:39] they have the G twenty G twenties representative of all the Western countries, the
[34:46] European Union. In fact, some of the European countries are permanent members,
[34:52] and you also represents them. All that is part of G twenty. They
[34:58] don't see the need. But there's so many others who are not part of
[35:01] the G twenty and they're not part of any of this big grouping where they
[35:07] can they can voice their opinion and have an economic cooperation beyond just the bilateral
[35:14] which is why you're looking at all these countries. Egypt. Youa Argentina.
[35:20] You know Argentina as a member of the G twenty, but you Egypt,
[35:24] they are not part of the G twenty. And Iran they want to be
[35:30] part of the Bricks so that they have a forum they can go to which
[35:37] is not absolutely pro West, where the West is not going to have a
[35:40] say on what currency to deal with. They want to have their own economic
[35:45] structure and architecture, which is why the Bricks Bank becomes very important. The
[35:51] conversation about you know, not just fundraising and lending, but also lending in
[35:55] local currency to boost national currency of countries. Then they're looking at the diverse
[36:04] economies and the investment opportunities in various sectors within the Bricks So if these countries
[36:12] join in, it will be advantage. It will be advantages for them,
[36:15] so and which is why Ramaphosa has done a very good thing. Apart from
[36:22] the Bricks and the Bricks Business Forum, there is the Friends of Bricks Summit.
[36:28] Also at the on the last day of the meetings, which is on
[36:32] the twenty fourth of August, there is the Friends of Bricks meeting where the
[36:38] President has extended invitations to about sixty seven leaders from Africa, Latin America,
[36:45] Asia, the Caribbean, and over forty of them are are going to represent
[36:53] themselves at the meeting. So it is going to be I'm in all sixty
[36:59] seven, I suppose or forty have already expressed desire to join the Bricks itself.
[37:05] So this is going to be a huge forum. We're looking at a
[37:09] conversation of the Global South at another level at the G twenty. Also,
[37:15] what the Prime Minister did is that in the inviting list of countries, there
[37:19] are voices from the Global South. Important countries so not part of the G
[37:22] twenty, but our important economies have been invited. But there are few in
[37:27] number sixty seven leaders outside of Bricks being invited for the Bricks summit and for
[37:35] the Friends of Bricks meeting in itself goes to show the importance these leaders attached
[37:39] to the Global South. So the conversation in the past was about are we
[37:44] the West, are we with the East? Are we going to counter the
[37:47] arm tristing by the West? Are we going to counter Chinese aggression? Today
[37:52] the conversation is about who is going to speak for the Global South, Who's
[37:57] going to become the voice of the Global South. And Bricks certainly seems like
[38:01] that forum. Yeah, no, I get that guitar. But another concern
[38:07] that is sort of serious is because you know, some people believe that China
[38:10] orchestrated the creation of bricks because it wanted to kill the India, Brazil,
[38:16] and South Africa ips are grouping. So South Africa's twenty ten accession to bricks
[38:22] was in fact led by China, and observers argue that if that was the
[38:27] goal, then Beijing's succeeded. But then theoretically we do know that, you
[38:31] know, every country does have a veto in the bricks over the accession of
[38:37] countries as permanent members. So how do you see this playing out like in
[38:43] terms of being pro China. So undoubtedly with the presence of China in the
[38:50] bricks it does have an overpowering effect on policies on it did in the past,
[38:58] on policy season how to take things forward, And yes China did consider
[39:04] as as as a forum. They no longer wanted the countries to associate with
[39:12] because that would have lessened the importance of bricks because they're the same countries barring
[39:17] South Africa till twenty ten. Bricks came about first and IPSA later, But
[39:27] IPSA did try to overshadow bricks, and which is what the Chinese were not
[39:31] very happy about. And what they tried to do was wean all these countries
[39:37] away and that's why they did in many ways that one push the addition of
[39:42] South Africa to the Brick Forum and making it the Bricks Forum later to ensure
[39:49] that the influence of China and the influence of bricks is way more than a
[39:55] grouping that has the same countries just songs China. So IPSA the only country
[40:00] that was missing, and IPSA was actual actually you know, Russia and China
[40:05] and China did not really want to have such various groupings. So slowly,
[40:12] if you see, the importance of IPSA started reducing, and there was lack
[40:17] of interest in ensuring that these countries trial actually continue to do things. So
[40:23] for a very long time, the IPSA has not been like the appropriate forum
[40:29] for these countries to take on issues which they actually take up in bricks.
[40:34] If anything, we've seen bricks grow in a manner which is most structured from
[40:40] bricks cooperation. Economic cooperation came the bricks Bank, the idea of bricks Bank.
[40:46] Presidency of the bricks Bank. Bricks Bank is based out of Shanghai and
[40:52] Kamath was the first president of the bricks Bank. So these are important aspects
[40:58] where they're giving important but they know where where these bodies have to be headquartered.
[41:04] So yes, bricks China did have a huge influential role, but I
[41:09] see that slowly and steadily India is also playing a very important role within the
[41:15] Bricks. It's no longer a forum of unequal partners, but a forum where
[41:23] strategically all are equal. And India search certainly has risen in stature. So
[41:30] again, you know, these are different times. We're talking about a time
[41:34] in China did look like the most influential, but today if you look at
[41:39] bricks, Russia, India, China, South African, Brazil also have their
[41:45] own say in how they want to conduct topics. Does China certain countries over
[41:53] the others, Yes they could, but so does now India have in terms
[41:59] of by laterally, especially after the pandemic, the way India went ahead and
[42:02] helped Brazil South Africa. You know India does have a say. And if
[42:08] you see the welcome of the leaders in South Africa, you'll realize the kind
[42:15] of welcome the Prime Minister mod the god with these huge banners and posters everywhere.
[42:21] It just shows that stature with its So it's changed. So it no
[42:27] longer is the conversation about how it was all China focused. Now it is
[42:32] also about how India focused bricks is and what India brings to the bricks table.
[42:38] Yeah, you know, just final thoughts. So as we ended,
[42:43] you interestingly mentioned that now the conversation, i mean, the narrative is sort
[42:46] of changing. But there's also another narrative which questions the very foundation of bricks
[42:53] and it's you know, effectiveness, it's efficacy. We have mentioned, i
[42:58] mean the time and again in this spot because in this episode as well,
[43:00] that the genesis of this blog was shaped by the collective economic influence of its
[43:06] member countries, and hence, in two thousand and one, these four emerging
[43:09] economics they were you know at that time, they were brought in together and
[43:14] later South Africa joined it. So like fast forward, you know, almost
[43:19] twenty two years since its inception, it appears that the economies of the bricks
[43:23] countries might not have fully met their initial promises. And with China's GDP surpassing
[43:30] the combined total of all other bricks countries, it kind of questions the ongoing
[43:36] significance of this blog. It has encountered a steady stream of skeptics and critics
[43:42] because there's Western analysts. Also, they have often dismissed it as you know,
[43:46] senseless and predicted its swift demise. There was something appeared in the magazine
[43:52] called Foreign Policy which said that in twenty eleven, the Financial Times declared it
[43:59] was time to bit farewell to the bricks without mortar. So there have been
[44:04] like many descriptions attached to this block, like odd grouping, like random bunch,
[44:09] you know, disparate quartet. So all these things have been there in
[44:14] the narrative. So are these skepticisms well founded or it's just like, as
[44:20] I mean, do you really think as a political body, it's sort of
[44:23] losing its effectiveness, its efficacy. Well, Anna, when it comes to
[44:29] the bricks as a political body, none of the forums that we see,
[44:35] the FUA that we see, whether it's the G twenty or any other important
[44:40] grouping, the political structure of those countries don't align. They normally never align.
[44:46] Does not mean that they cannot do business anymore. We are a different
[44:50] world altogether. Till sometime ago one could have said, well, bricks looks
[44:54] like a body which does not which does not align itself. You know,
[45:00] the members don't align themselves politically, ethos y so on and so forth.
[45:07] You know, but some countries are some countries are autocratic, countries are democracies.
[45:13] So that way. Yeah. So, but at the end of the
[45:15] day, what is the conversation today. The conversation today is how to make
[45:20] Briggs voice of the Global South at the G twenty. When Prime Minister More
[45:25] he speaks about Voice of the Global South, he will be talking about how
[45:30] the West should be looking at the Global South and hearing their concerns and allaying
[45:35] their fears and their concerns as well. At the bricks. When you say
[45:38] voice of the Global South, they are the Global South, which means it
[45:43] will be a more cohesive group talking about what concerns the global South has that
[45:47] the West does not factor in, and that they should find solutions for our
[45:52] solutions too. So that's the difference right now. The fact that there's a
[45:55] conversation on the expansion of bricks itself goes to show that there's a massive outreach
[46:01] towards the Global South from countries who are from the Global South. And if
[46:07] these countries, these developing nations come together focus their energies on economy and see
[46:15] where they're wronged on climate change and see where they're wronged and where the West
[46:20] needs to do more than the Global South. That's where you find the cohesiveness.
[46:23] The cohesiveness is in the fact that not where they come from, what
[46:30] their political structures are, but who they are. They are the Global South,
[46:35] they are all developing economies. The problems are almost the same. The
[46:39] supply structures are almost the same, The challenges in the supply structures are almost
[46:45] the same for all these countries. Climate change, the problems, challenges,
[46:51] redressals are exactly the same for all these countries, if not exact, almost
[46:54] the same. So this is a forum that is being created, and an
[46:59] ex banded manner is going to look at what in other spaces there is no
[47:05] consensus for. For example, when we talk about zero carbon so on and
[47:09] so forth, and we say, okay, well let's do it in a
[47:13] manner where we get an advantage over the West, the West always there's no
[47:17] consensus on that because the West says no, why because they don't want to
[47:22] stop their progress, their development at the cost of allowing others to do it,
[47:28] even if it means doing better for the planet. But over here,
[47:30] when the voices come together, they still be a strong body of how many
[47:35] countries coming together saying well, we all of us have suffered and they need
[47:40] to do something. This coming ahead of all the other important climate meetings is
[47:45] really really significant, So the political structures don't have to align the idea of
[47:52] how to come together to voice the global sells

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