# VC10X - Gamification of Consumer Apps - Phylicia Koh, GP, Play Ventures

An episode of [VC10X - Investing, Venture Capital, Asset Management, Family Office, Wealth Management](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1632806986), 6 Jan 2026, 44 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/a453ddd4/podcast/play/113577817/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-0-6%2F415583943-44100-2-5b83598b5bd2c.mp3

In this episode, Phylicia Koh, GP at Play Ventures, explains why gaming is the new operating system for consumer engagement and how "playable apps" are transforming industries from fintech to relationship wellness. Play Ventures focuses on apps that use gaming's "live operations" and in-app economies to drive user habits. These products succeed by offering controllable outcomes, intrinsic motivators, and social elements like clans or leaderboards. In early 2025, consumer in-app purchase (IAP) officially surpassed gaming IAP revenue for the first time in history. This shift indicates a massive opportunity for founders to apply free-to-play monetization models to non-gaming consumer sectors. ⭐ Sponsored by Podcast10x - Podcasting agency for VCs - https://podcast10x.com We talk about: - Overview of the $142 million early-stage fund and its specific investment thesis. - Analysis of why consumer in-app purchase spending now exceeds gaming spending. - The four key characteristics of a successful playable app. - Insights into portfolio companies like Alinea, Bible Chat, and Aria. - The difference between adding features like streaks and building a deep meta-design. - How subscriptions compare to free-to-play models in terms of lifetime value. - The impact of AI on user acquisition and creative fatigue. - How the metaverse already exists in platforms like Roblox. - The future of product discovery and the shift away from traditional search engines. - Personal game recommendations and the evolution of the gaming audience. & lots more TIMESTAMPS (00:00) - Consumer IAP spending exceeds gaming IAP spend (00:19) - Why you can't just slap on gamification to a product (00:59) - Introduction to Felicia Ko, General Partner at Play Ventures (02:33) - Play Ventures' thesis on "Playable Apps" (03:45) - The four characteristics of a successful playable app (06:27) - Portfolio examples of gamified consumer apps (09:45) - Market trends supporting the rise of playable apps (11:15) - Why subscriptions cap lifetime value compared to free-to-play models (12:48) - How gaming founders are applying their skills to new consumer spaces (14:25) - The right stage for a company to implement gamification (17:02) - How gamification boosts retention, engagement, and virality (18:33) - What types of games Play Ventures invests in (20:44) - The much-anticipated release of GTA VI (23:59) - What makes a game a massive success like GTA or Candy Crush? (26:00) - The importance of user acquisition and finding blue ocean markets (29:22) - Game recommendations: Monopoly Go, Whiteout Survival, Roblox, and more (32:31) - Is gaming becoming a viable career path like YouTubing? (33:30) - The average gamer is in their 30s (37:00) - Does the Metaverse already exist? (38:05) - The future of gaming and playable apps in the next 5 years (41:04) - Rapid-fire round: Play Ventures' investment strategy (42:50) - How founders can connect with Phylicia Koh LINKS Phylicia Koh on X - https://x.com/ppphyl Phylicia Koh LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/phyliciakoh Play Ventures - https://www.play.vc/ Prashant Choubey - https://www.linkedin.com/in/choubeysahab Subscribe to VC10X newsletter - https://vc10x.beehiiv.com Subscribe on YouTube - https://youtube.com/@VC10X Subscribe on Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vc10x-investing-venture-capital-asset-management-private/id1632806986 Subscribe on Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7F7KEhXNhTx1bKTBFgzv3k?si=WgQ4ozMiQJ-6nowj6wBgqQ VC10X website - https://vc10x.com For sponsorship queries reach out to prashantchoubey3@gmail.com

## Transcript

[0:00] 2025 for the first time reported the consumer IEP spending
[0:03] actually exceeded gaming IEP spend for the first time ever.
[0:06] At what stage in the company does gamification help?
[0:09] Do you think if a company starting out they can just
[0:13] include gamification right away and that would help them make
[0:17] the GTM process much easier? I think it can't just be
[0:21] something that you slap on onto your product.
[0:24] And so I think, you know, if you're just trying to slap on
[0:28] streets and then you kind of wonder, oh, or just slap on
[0:31] badges and then just kind of wonder, oh, why didn't that
[0:33] work? It's probably because it wasn't
[0:36] really necessarily thought out in itself.
[0:38] The 30 year olds are playing games.
[0:40] So what that means is that as a category it's just not limited
[0:44] to early teens or 20s. It's.
[0:46] Also going on at. Those ages so that means there
[0:49] is longevity in the industry itself I.
[0:52] Mean, like I said, there's a game for everybody, right?
[0:54] So my, my mother-in-law plays Candy Crush.
[0:57] She's in her 60s. Like, that's her game, right?
[1:01] Hey everyone, this is Prashant and I will be host of the VC10X
[1:03] podcast. And today we have Felicia go
[1:05] with us. Felicia is a general partner at
[1:08] Play Ventures and Early Stage VC fund, investing globally in
[1:12] gaming and consumer apps. In this episode, we dive into
[1:16] the rise of playable apps and why consumer in apps spending
[1:20] has finally overtaken gaming for the first time in history.
[1:23] We also discussed the right way to game five products, why you
[1:27] can't just slap on a streak and explore.
[1:29] Felicia's bold take that the metaverse already exists, just
[1:33] not where you might think. So without wasting any time,
[1:36] let's dive straight in. This episode is brought to you
[1:38] by Podcast Enix, my podcasting agency for VCs.
[1:43] We help VCs start and run branded podcast that can serve
[1:46] as their entire content engine. Turn the conversations you're
[1:50] already having into a machine. One recording becomes your
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[1:58] Don't just build another VC firm, build a firm that can
[2:01] stand out to LP's and one that founders can brag about having
[2:05] you on their cap table. Check out our services at
[2:08] Podcast ten-x.com. I'll put the link in the
[2:11] description below. Now enjoy the episode.
[2:14] Hey Felicia, so good to have you on the VC10X podcast.
[2:17] How are you doing? Hi Prashant, nice to be here.
[2:21] I'm excited to chat, everything is all good.
[2:24] I am in Chile, Canada at the moment, which is a little bit
[2:28] different from where usually I'm in Singapore where it's a little
[2:31] bit sunnier. Yeah, absolutely.
[2:35] Great to have you on. And to start things off, can we
[2:38] talk about Play ventures, what it does?
[2:41] What's your specific thesis that you followed there?
[2:44] One thing that I've heard more about is playable apps, right?
[2:48] What is that explain for the audience?
[2:51] Sure. So Play Ventures is an early
[2:53] stage BC fund. We have gaming roots today.
[2:57] I'd say we identify as gaming and consumer fund.
[3:01] So we still very much invest in gaming game studios, game
[3:04] makers, also gaming adjacent technology.
[3:08] So things like payments, ad tech, marketing, tech Gen.
[3:12] AI, yes as well. But also yes, we we've also
[3:16] expanded I think the definition of play into what we call
[3:19] playable apps. And so these are basically
[3:21] consumer apps where we think, look, there is an opportunity
[3:25] here to take learnings and, and know how from gaming and free to
[3:30] play gaming and apply it into new spaces.
[3:34] You know, we see gaming really as the OS right for for user
[3:38] engagement and monetization. And so if you broaden that, it's
[3:42] not just about, hey, you know, how can we apply game design and
[3:45] gamification techniques, so to speak, into new areas, but
[3:49] really kind of like how can we take learnings from hey, but we
[3:52] know about free to play gaming and how to do user acquisition.
[3:55] How can we take learnings about designing an in app economy, for
[3:59] example, or in game economy and apply that to new space?
[4:03] What do we know about ad monetization, live operations,
[4:07] for example, in games and applying that into new spaces?
[4:10] And so when we think about the whole universe of consumer is so
[4:13] broad, right? There's so many possibilities
[4:15] and things. I think as a family kind of look
[4:18] for kind of four characteristics of where we think, you know,
[4:22] this makes sense for us as a fund to invest into a playable
[4:25] app category. And the first thing is, you
[4:27] know, is there sort of controllable outcome for the
[4:31] user? If I put in effort, for example,
[4:34] can I have, you know, some success?
[4:36] And sometimes that's learning, sometimes that's fitness,
[4:40] sometimes that's mental health. But you know, something where
[4:43] input kind of results in outcome and where this control, But then
[4:48] there's also some allowance for variability, unpredictability.
[4:52] That's what kind of keeps things fun, right?
[4:53] Not, not that you always have a very predictable outcome.
[4:57] You know, we look for things. Where is there a complementary
[4:59] motivation to entertainment? I mean, entertainment is great.
[5:02] There's nothing wrong with entertainment.
[5:04] But obviously when you combine that with something that's a
[5:07] little bit more perhaps intrinsic, you know, whether
[5:10] it's I want to improve my sleep or I want to, you know, be
[5:13] healthier and more fit and I want to run a marathon, Like
[5:16] those are very powerful motivators and can help to
[5:19] strengthen, I think baseline user acquisition, your early
[5:23] retention and engagement, for example, of of the product that
[5:26] you're building. So that's the second thing we
[5:28] look for. The third thing we look for is
[5:30] kind of, is it inherently social?
[5:33] So we know that from games. You know, the best retaining
[5:36] products often have a social element.
[5:39] So whether it's a cooperative play, whether it's competitive
[5:43] play, whether it's, you know, where where we're in a clan
[5:46] together, we're working on a a clan quest and mission.
[5:50] Those kind of social things can be really, really powerful in
[5:54] terms of driving retention. And so that's just some things
[5:57] that we look for. And obviously the last one is,
[5:59] you know, are your users willing to pay for something?
[6:03] I think ultimately, you know, we're BCS we're investing in
[6:06] what we hope will be venture skill businesses.
[6:09] And I think the biggest validation of are you actually
[6:12] offering something that the market values is are your users
[6:15] willing to pay? And, and, and so those are kind
[6:18] of like the four things that we sort of look for when we think
[6:22] is this an opportunity where, you know, playable?
[6:24] It could be a playable app for example.
[6:27] Yeah, absolutely. That's quite interesting.
[6:29] Can you share an example of maybe a portfolio company of how
[6:33] a consumer app has you know included gamification in in
[6:37] their app and how that is improving retention and how that
[6:41] is having an impact on the metrics as well.
[6:44] But what are the different ways, what I'm curious about this
[6:46] different ways in which consumer apps can be gamified and what
[6:50] are the, is there any broad teams there that you'd like to
[6:53] share? Sure.
[6:54] Sure. So, yeah, I think, you know,
[6:57] when we think about, let's talk about a few things, I guess.
[7:02] So there's, for example, a company that I invested in
[7:05] that's called Alinea, their personal investing app targeted
[7:08] at Gen. Z and millennials.
[7:10] Oftentimes these are people who are, you know, unfamiliar to
[7:13] investing. They're not on Robin Hood
[7:14] necessarily, you know, they're, they're not familiar.
[7:18] It's a scary space. And so there's a lot of kind of
[7:20] gamification in terms of, hey, can we, can we introduce kind of
[7:23] like a learnings in a, in a level progression kind of way,
[7:27] right? Let's learn about what are
[7:28] stocks, what are, what are bonds, right?
[7:32] What's dollar cost averaging, for example.
[7:34] These are all like very basic concepts, but that's the idea of
[7:37] how you onboard them. And, and once they understand
[7:39] that, then can we get them to start investing, you know,
[7:42] because, you know, you don't have to be trading every single
[7:45] day, but you do have to start investing at least, you know,
[7:50] your monthly or your, your fortnightly paycheck, right?
[7:53] That's, that's, that's our goal for them.
[7:55] And so they've kind of applied some of those learnings, you
[7:58] know, of, of how to get that positive feedback loop and that
[8:01] dopamine hit to their users to get them to build a healthy
[8:05] habit that we want them to encourage them to do.
[8:08] Another example is, for example, of a company that I invested in
[8:11] makes an app called Bible chat. It's kind of as the name
[8:14] suggests, that's how it started, you know, chatting to the Bible
[8:19] here in your and you can ask the Bible questions.
[8:22] It's all enabled by AI. Probably would not have been
[8:25] possible to do this without AI, you know, even like, you know,
[8:28] 10 years ago. And so you can ask questions,
[8:31] right? And it will give you kind of the
[8:34] answers based on what you know your faith teaches.
[8:39] But you know, we've also introduced, I guess, social
[8:41] features, right? So we introduced what we call
[8:44] live prayers. And this is where you can join a
[8:46] queue and request for prayer for resolve.
[8:48] You can join a prayer for somebody else and kind of boost
[8:51] their prayer or bless their prayer.
[8:54] We've introduced live for all prayers.
[8:56] So for example, when the Pope passed away, Pope Francis passed
[8:59] away recently, you know, there's a live world prayer, right?
[9:03] And so that's kind of like taking taking reference from
[9:05] live operations and what we know about gaming social features and
[9:09] kind of applying them in a way that makes sense for their
[9:13] particular space. You know, we introduced the idea
[9:16] of like streaks and I guess kind of like a login bonus situation,
[9:20] which we know happens in gaming a lot.
[9:22] Is that idea of like, how do we take these game design know how
[9:26] and incorporate them in a way that encourages the daily habit
[9:30] or the weekly habit that we're trying to encourage.
[9:32] And so, you know, it's not, it's not just like entertainment for
[9:35] entertainment sake, but something really positive.
[9:38] So those are like, I guess, a couple of examples of how
[9:40] they've applied it in ways that make sense for their particular
[9:43] goals and their particular sector.
[9:46] Absolutely. Both Very interesting examples
[9:48] there. And what market trends are
[9:50] shifts in user behavior made you believe that playable apps are
[9:54] the future of consumer products? Yeah, I think there's, you know,
[9:57] there's a few things, right. You know, back in 2022, we
[10:00] looked at consumer IAP spend in that purchase spend and we
[10:04] looked at gaming IAP spend. And in 2022, I believe at that
[10:08] time, consumer IAP spent was still like about half of what it
[10:12] was in gaming. So I don't think it was fairly
[10:14] obvious that, you know, that was something that was going to be a
[10:17] growing sector. But we saw I guess the, the, the
[10:21] way the winds were blowing, we saw that that was definitely the
[10:25] direction it was growing into. We saw there was a lot of low
[10:28] hanging fruits, like a lot of majority of consumer apps, for
[10:30] example, currently still monetized by subscriptions.
[10:34] And that's logical and makes sense.
[10:36] Subscriptions are much easier to spin up and run than trying to
[10:41] do like a free to use or freemium kind of approach,
[10:44] right? And then designing, it takes
[10:46] time to design an economy and test and balance it and then
[10:49] figure out, hey, you know, what are people spending time on?
[10:53] You know, how can we introduce a virtual currency, for example,
[10:55] to reward behaviors that they're doing and that we want to reward
[10:59] and give them, you know, I guess sinks where they can spend their
[11:03] currency as well, right? So like it takes time to figure
[11:05] that out. Subscriptions are much easier to
[11:07] run up. But we also knew that, hey, when
[11:09] you have subscriptions, it, it, it does a great thing for
[11:13] developers, first of all, because validation are people
[11:16] going to pay? And that's a great fast way of
[11:18] doing it. Great fast way of you.
[11:21] I wouldn't say fast, but faster way of, of generating revenue,
[11:24] bringing revenue into the business.
[11:26] You know, if you spend on user acquisition, you're going to see
[11:29] return on ad spend at a much faster clip than let's say a
[11:34] free to play experience. But we also know that that
[11:39] monetization model for business tends to cap lifetime value of a
[11:43] user. So in the long run, you know,
[11:46] perhaps that's not the model that you only want to monetize
[11:49] on and free to play has its base there.
[11:52] So we, we, we saw that basically I think we saw that there was
[11:57] probably huge potential for consumer IP spend to grow and
[12:00] keep growing at accelerated clip.
[12:02] And I think we've been validated in that.
[12:04] I think earlier this year in 2025, they for the first time
[12:08] reported the consumer IP spending actually exceeded
[12:11] gaming IP spend for the first time ever, ever.
[12:13] So that's like kind of three years in the making, right?
[12:16] But we saw that opportunity. We also saw that, you know, as
[12:20] gaming investors, you know, free to play gaming is still I think
[12:25] very much where we will continue to invest in and where we we
[12:28] still have faith that there is going to be great outcomes.
[12:32] But it is a 20 year old market and it is mature.
[12:36] And so if you think about also, I think that was a realization
[12:40] that many gaining founders themselves saw there were other
[12:43] opportunities for them to take their know how their skill set
[12:46] and go and apply into new spaces and solve exciting problems that
[12:50] they were excited about. You know, I thinking about Aria,
[12:54] which is a couple intimacy and relationship on this platform
[12:58] that has the AI enabled concierge and over there is AI
[13:02] want to say now, maybe perhaps second or third time founder and
[13:06] he built his previous company in in advertising technology, ad
[13:09] tech, in gaming. And so he's, you know, he's
[13:12] decided he's going to take that know how user acquisition and
[13:15] how that all works and apply it into a new space, which, you
[13:18] know, are is focused on, which is how do we basically help
[13:23] couples, right keep their relationships fun.
[13:26] People always think about dating, dating being a massive
[13:29] market. And yes, you have the bumbles,
[13:32] the match grooves, the hinge, everything.
[13:36] But I think very few people question what happens after you
[13:40] find your partner, right? And the truth is it takes work.
[13:43] And the truth is, no matter how fun and exciting it is at the
[13:46] start, over the long run, you know, it takes effort to
[13:50] actually continue to have that novel experience together, that
[13:54] fun experience. And so Arias focused on helping
[13:57] couple intimacy, helping them have fun together through
[14:00] digital content, but also through offline play.
[14:03] And so, you know, we saw founders like that kind of
[14:06] taking their expenses from gaming and then going into new
[14:09] spaces. And so as an early stage
[14:11] investor, obviously you know a lot of what we do with our our
[14:14] founder, but still at the end of the day.
[14:16] And so, you know, I think everything just makes sense
[14:19] where the spend was going, the maturation of the free to play
[14:22] gaming market, where the talent was going as well.
[14:25] Absolutely. These are all very interesting
[14:27] companies that you've mentioned so far.
[14:29] And when do you think at what stage in the company does
[14:34] gamification help? Do you think if a company is
[14:36] starting out, they can just include gamification right away
[14:40] and that would help them, help them make the GTM process much
[14:44] easier? Or is it that, OK, you get
[14:47] somewhat mature, you have your initial customers, then you can
[14:50] try out some gamification aspects.
[14:52] So at what stage do you think gamification is the most helpful
[14:56] for the business? I think it can't just be
[15:00] something that you slap on onto your product.
[15:03] And like I said, it was, it's always about thinking about what
[15:07] makes sense for the consumer and, and the habit that you're
[15:12] trying to, to, to facilitate, right?
[15:15] And so I think, you know, if you're just trying to slap on
[15:18] streets and then you kind of wonder, oh, you know, or slap on
[15:21] badges and then just kind of wonder, oh, why didn't that
[15:23] work? It's probably because it's, it
[15:25] wasn't really necessarily thought out itself.
[15:29] You know, when we think about, even if you think about a game,
[15:32] right, there's your core gameplay, there's your meta
[15:35] design, and it all ties in together.
[15:38] The core gameplay is important for your early retention.
[15:41] People have to find what they're doing at its core fun, right,
[15:46] But the meta gameplay could be like if you've played Monopoly
[15:48] go, I don't know if you played Monopoly or maybe somebody out
[15:50] there has like, you know, there's a collection mechanism,
[15:53] right, that's more from meta. There's, you know, you'll start
[15:57] to see, for example, typically in games, you'll start to have,
[16:01] for example, leaderboards, right, More competitively.
[16:04] That's that's part of the meta as well.
[16:06] That's what keeps people coming back.
[16:08] So, and I think in gaming, everything ties together, right?
[16:11] User acquisition, the core gameplay, the meta, the live OPS
[16:16] monetization all ties together. So I don't think it's about like
[16:19] it makes sense only at the early stage or the late stage.
[16:22] There are different things from gaming that apply to different
[16:25] stages of the user experience. And they think you think about
[16:28] it in that way, like what is why would somebody come install,
[16:32] download my app, open it, use it for day one and come back at day
[16:36] three? Like that's going to be about
[16:38] something specifically. Why would they come back at day
[16:41] 30? And then why would they come
[16:43] back at day night? And you know, we want them to
[16:45] keep coming back. We want them to play games for
[16:48] years and years. And we want them to use your
[16:50] consumer product for years and years as well.
[16:52] And so it's going to be different things and the
[16:55] combination of all those that keep people coming back, you
[16:58] know, one year on, two years on, three years on as well.
[17:01] Yeah, absolutely. And do you think gamification of
[17:06] consumer apps that are not games themselves helps increase the
[17:10] retention and engagement of those apps themselves?
[17:13] And also the aspect of vitality or maybe reference of referring
[17:17] other people to come join them and maybe play the game with
[17:20] them? So does that gamification help
[17:22] those aspects as well? I mean, yeah, I think it
[17:25] definitely does. I think yes, game design and
[17:30] gamification can help user engagement and retention.
[17:35] Definitely like I said, you, you need a lot of different things.
[17:39] It's not just one particular thing about game design that
[17:42] applies to keeping somebody coming back for day and idea.
[17:45] And, you know, also some experiences are going to be, I
[17:50] think, a more natural fit for referrals, you know, and
[17:53] cooperative gameplay. Some, for example, like, you
[17:56] know, if, if you're playing, I don't know, Candy Crush, right,
[17:59] maybe that's more of a single player experience, But those are
[18:02] single player experiences that come back and, and, and they
[18:06] retain for a long time and they spend a lot of money on those
[18:08] games, even though, you know, maybe it's not a game where
[18:12] everybody's sitting together in the living room and they're
[18:16] playing 2V2. You know, they're not, they're
[18:18] not doing that, but they're, they're doing it for a different
[18:20] reason. It's relaxation.
[18:22] They're probably doing it on, you know, playing it on the
[18:24] trains or, or, or their commute. But yeah, I think definitely it
[18:28] it does help with user engagement and and that social I
[18:32] guess aspect of it as well. Absolutely.
[18:34] And what types of games do you like the most when it comes to
[18:39] investing in them because they have a very solid business model
[18:43] with them. Can you give me an insight into
[18:47] that aspect and, and in examples that what was a particular
[18:51] company's business model? I was, I would be making money.
[18:53] What were the different pathways and what made them an attractive
[18:57] business for you? Yeah, I guess how much time to
[19:03] well, I mean, I think, I think for us it's a fun look, we're
[19:06] we're $142 million fund that's our that's the size of our third
[19:10] black chips on right. I think when it comes to fund
[19:15] size check size, the cost of development of the timeline for
[19:19] development, you know, mobile continues to I would say be the
[19:23] platform where we probably invest the most heavily on.
[19:26] So probably most most likely mobile free to play product.
[19:30] You know, personally I love playing PC console games as
[19:33] well, but from a fun perspective, it's a little bit
[19:35] harder for us to fund the development cycles are just a
[19:38] lot longer. So it's going to take, you know,
[19:41] just a much longer time to to get to basically validate
[19:46] retention or, you know, return on ads by metrics, right
[19:50] compared to a mobile free to play title.
[19:53] I think within mobile itself, we are we're still extremely
[19:56] bullish on the casual puzzle space, hybrid casual space.
[20:00] Like I said, gaming is a really. Really it's, it's free to play.
[20:04] It's a, a mature market at this point.
[20:06] There are certain genres that where we think, you know, a new
[20:08] entrant is going to be still able to succeed and make
[20:12] incredible venture scale outcomes versus some others.
[20:16] You know, I think for example, I'm, I'm not, I'm not
[20:20] necessarily saying never, it will never happen.
[20:23] But you know, trying to create APC shooter game that's going to
[20:26] create that's going to be a $2 billion outcome today is, is, I
[20:31] would say the chances are a lot more remote than you know,
[20:34] having another dream games, for example.
[20:36] And and so that's that's something that we've, I think
[20:40] our investments also kind of reflect that that thesis.
[20:44] Absolutely. And there's one big question
[20:47] that I wanted to ask you is when is GTA6 coming out?
[20:51] Do you have any clue about that? I don't have any insider
[20:57] information. I think I'm flying process for
[20:59] what is shared and I believe they pushed it back to next
[21:01] year. So very interesting that once
[21:05] they announced that they pushed it back.
[21:07] I think other other publishers publishing slate seems to have
[21:11] been brought forward in terms of launch because nobody wants to
[21:15] go up against GTA6. I'm excited about that one as
[21:17] well. But I don't have insider
[21:19] information on that. If somebody wants to tell me if
[21:21] it's going to come up, come, come out sooner, I'd be.
[21:24] I'd be happy to know. Please let me know.
[21:26] I'm ready. Yeah, surely, you know, to dig
[21:30] deeper into that, this anticipation itself and this
[21:33] delay itself can be a marketing move as well.
[21:37] Now there are memes created around it that OK, everything
[21:41] can happen, but GTA 6 is still not here, right?
[21:45] Do you think that's interesting? Because I think it has gained a
[21:48] lot more popularity just because of the delay, which is
[21:52] interesting. You know, I'm not sure if it was
[21:54] intended that way or not, but the anticipation is sky high,
[21:57] which it would not have been if it were to release on its time.
[22:02] I mean, I disagree that the anticipation was not high.
[22:05] I think it was already super high.
[22:06] Like and I think, you know, if you look at their competitors,
[22:09] right, they're looking at when GTA is coming out and then kind
[22:11] of public planning their publishing fleet based on that.
[22:15] You know, GTA is such a it's it's it's such a top tier
[22:20] franchise. Like I think that it's and it's
[22:22] been years in the making now with a lot of money investing in
[22:26] it. I think they know that there's a
[22:27] lot of eyeballs, there's a lot of anticipation.
[22:30] So I don't think it was necessary, like let's push it
[22:33] out, you know, further to to drive anticipation even why
[22:38] don't think that was particularly incremental to
[22:42] them. I think perhaps if it was
[22:43] another title that that might be true, but I don't think that was
[22:47] the case for GTA. If anything now like
[22:52] expectations are even piled on even more.
[22:54] I mean this is the 6th of the franchise.
[22:57] It's really hard to keep, you know, to meet expectations that
[23:01] are so sky high. Everybody knows there's been so
[23:04] much invested in it, But you know, the guys there, they know
[23:06] what they're doing. If you've played even the
[23:08] previous GT as recently, I think as everybody was maybe waiting
[23:12] for six to come out for like, OK, it's not coming out this
[23:14] year. Let's go back and play the
[23:16] previous editions. I mean, the game feels like it
[23:22] feels like it could have been made for today, right?
[23:24] Like the, the the pop culture references was so on point.
[23:29] And or maybe it's also commentary that perhaps pop
[23:32] culture hasn't evolved that much in the past 10 years, where
[23:36] like, you know, one of my favorite things is like when
[23:39] you're driving and put the radio on, like the music, the talk
[23:44] show radio show on the on on that is like it's, it feels like
[23:49] it could be today. I don't know.
[23:50] There. It's it's a great game, yeah,
[23:53] but I don't think in GTA's case it was.
[23:56] It was like, let's push it out for bigger anticipation.
[23:59] Yeah, absolutely. And I'm actually a noob gamer
[24:02] and myself the last GTA I played was Vice City and then San
[24:05] Andreas and none after that. So I'm not so knowledgeable on
[24:09] that aspect. But you are like, so when you're
[24:13] investing, are you also looking at what could be the next GTA?
[24:17] And to look for that, you need to 1st understand what do games
[24:21] like GTA have in them that need to be there in this new business
[24:27] that we are backing, right? And what are those aspects in
[24:31] your opinion? GTA is one example, there are
[24:32] many other. Like Angry Birds was super viral
[24:35] at one time, so was Candy Crush, right?
[24:38] They captured the imagination of the entire world right at one
[24:41] point, but GT has continued to do so.
[24:43] It's still just at the top, right?
[24:46] So how do you look at that? What aspects, what factors help
[24:51] you determine that this game can actually be really big?
[24:54] Yeah, I think that's a, that's a very good question.
[24:57] That's a pretty loaded question. I suppose, you know, all those
[25:02] are, are frankly leaders of their category, right?
[25:06] You know, you talk about like Candy Crush.
[25:08] I think it came, it cannot maybe I want to say it's probably a 20
[25:12] year old game, but I think already in, in April alone, like
[25:16] this year, it was making, you know, over 100 million still in,
[25:20] in IP revenue in that month alone.
[25:22] And it's probably going to do billion dollar revenues.
[25:25] I think in, in maybe in 20/20/24 or 2025, like it's still going
[25:31] to do close to a billion dollars.
[25:33] So these are games that have longevity and, and replayability
[25:38] and people have, you know, even if it's an old IP, they, they
[25:42] still love it, right? And so when we look at games, I
[25:45] think we're looking at games that number one, there's so many
[25:48] things like from a user acquisition point of view, what
[25:51] gives you the right to, to, to succeed as a team?
[25:55] Do you have that expertise? Are you thinking about it?
[25:58] Do you know how to do user acquisition, acquire those
[26:00] users? I think in gaming, you know, I
[26:03] know in consumer spaces, for example, like people always
[26:06] index on like organic, you know, user base and everything and
[26:10] that that is important. That's valuable.
[26:12] Obviously, the more organics you have and they're qualified, the
[26:15] better is for you because you're not spending that money
[26:17] acquiring users. But in gaming, like that's and
[26:20] then, you know, knowing how to use performance marketing and UA
[26:23] is, is, is par for the course, right?
[26:26] So from a user acquisition point of view of the team, like do you
[26:29] know the space? Can you do it?
[26:31] And it's, it's as much an art as it is a science.
[26:34] And everybody's extremely competitive, right?
[26:37] People are using AI, for example, to make sure that they
[26:39] can turn out as much user acquisition creatives as
[26:42] possible. Keep testing, testing, testing
[26:45] refreshing because you have creative fatigue.
[26:48] So you know, it's an art, but it's also science.
[26:51] And then I think on the category itself, it's kind of like if you
[26:55] talk about building AGTA, that's a massive undertaking.
[26:59] You're building an entire world. It's multiplayer.
[27:02] You know, they also have GTA Online now.
[27:05] It didn't, it didn't used to be right?
[27:06] They had GTA Online. So you have an online kind of
[27:08] play that couldn't continue even after you've finished perhaps
[27:12] the narrative gameplay. And so, you know, you're looking
[27:16] at the cost structures of doing that.
[27:18] If they GTA 6 probably cost around like was it $2 billion?
[27:22] So for fun of our size and frankly for anything many in
[27:26] gaming funding, those kind of titles just become really
[27:29] difficult. And it's difficult as well, even
[27:33] for the large guys. Like if you think about
[27:35] Electronic Arts, right, like most of their revenue continues
[27:39] to come from sports franchises. So it's your EAFC, it's it's,
[27:44] you know, it's, it's, it's their sports titles versus new titles,
[27:49] fresh titles that have been done.
[27:50] And so like creating these kind of games are, are pretty, pretty
[27:54] challenging. And so we're looking also like
[27:56] where can, where does it make sense for new entrants to come
[27:59] in and be able to actually compete?
[28:01] Which is why I guess perhaps we gravitate more towards mobile
[28:04] than necessary PC, not to say that we will never invest in
[28:07] those spaces. Or it's even thinking about like
[28:09] a concept like GTA. It's it's it's captured people's
[28:13] hearts and minds and and game time, but it is very much an
[28:17] experience that is geared towards somebody who owns a
[28:21] console right APC, which we know that again, like mobile is the
[28:27] gaming platform of gaming device of choice for most of the rest
[28:30] of the world. And so if you're, for example,
[28:33] somebody you know, in Southeast Asia, your primary gaming device
[28:37] is a mobile phone, you're probably actually not and you
[28:41] don't own a console, you don't own PC, you've probably you've
[28:43] not had that experience of GTA. So maybe if you're going for
[28:46] that market, that makes sense, right?
[28:49] Like that's OK concept, that's work.
[28:51] We know that works. People love a platform where
[28:56] it's not as saturated and competitive.
[28:59] You're not trying to do people away from GTA because no matter
[29:03] what you do, it's it's probably like going against a giant
[29:07] right, Like and you even meet their expectations, their
[29:09] expectations to sky high. But it's a new platform.
[29:12] They've never had that experience.
[29:14] So maybe you can kind of create a great opportunity there in, in
[29:18] this, I guess less of a more of a blue ocean market.
[29:22] Absolutely. So what is 1 game that you would
[29:26] like our audience to try out that they may not be aware of?
[29:32] Well, I think there's there's a few things like I said, Monopoly
[29:39] go is I think a great title scopefully published that it's
[29:43] been doing crazy. So if you want to check out what
[29:45] I mean by a collection mechanisms that I referenced
[29:47] earlier, please go check that out.
[29:50] Personally, I love whiteout survival.
[29:54] I I think that's a great example of, by the way, the, the, the
[29:58] idea itself, the core mechanic of that actually came from, I
[30:00] believe APC title, which I think was about it was called frost
[30:05] punk, if I'm, if I'm remembering correctly.
[30:08] And the idea of it was, you know, it's a, it's a frozen
[30:11] apocalypse. And so we've got to keep, it's
[30:13] like a strategy allocation game and, and you have to basically
[30:18] keep the furnace going, keeping everybody fed that core gameplay
[30:23] then got adopted into White House survival forms its core.
[30:26] But then they've added in a lot of like live operations.
[30:29] So I was talking about, you know, and, and kind of
[30:33] implemented a lot of those things.
[30:34] So I, I, I personally still really like that game with a
[30:37] little bit of an older one. But yeah, I, I think it really
[30:40] depends. My, my classic favorite is
[30:42] always Civilization. So if you like strategy games,
[30:47] that's a that's a great one to check out.
[30:49] It's classic. I love playing the sings.
[30:53] I think there's something there. It's it's a, you know, again,
[30:56] decades old franchise. I believe Sims 4.
[31:01] I don't I don't know when Sims 5 will come out, if ever, But
[31:04] that's also been a really interesting one where it
[31:06] monetizes through, you know, like a lot of DLC.
[31:10] They, they initially launched as a freemium title, then start
[31:14] premium title, then move to free to play and then added in
[31:18] monetization through like kind of like your, your, your DLCS
[31:21] and your packs and stuff like that.
[31:22] So that's also another interesting one.
[31:23] And of course, if you have kids, go check out Roblox.
[31:27] You know, I think it's, it's a great insight into what the next
[31:31] generation of gamers are playing.
[31:34] Like how do you think about IP? You know, I think what appeals
[31:38] to them, I think it's so interesting to see.
[31:41] I have two nephews, 9 and seven, they're on Roblox and it's
[31:46] really interesting to see the games where they gravitate
[31:48] towards and how they play the games.
[31:49] And people like to think that games have to be super, super
[31:52] polished. There's definitely an audience
[31:54] for that. Like you, we talked about GTA.
[31:57] GTA is very polished. And then you go to Roblox and
[32:00] you're like, oh, actually made like perhaps for this
[32:04] demographic of gamers and users, that doesn't matter so much.
[32:08] You know, IP doesn't matter so much.
[32:10] Like they create their, there's, you know, there's, I guess
[32:13] Roblox originated IPS that are created there.
[32:17] That doesn't look at all what we would think about as, as, as
[32:20] something, you know, as people, I guess who grew up with linear
[32:22] programming. It's, it's a very different
[32:25] ecosystem. So I think that's also an
[32:27] interesting one to check out. But yeah, there's, I think
[32:29] there's a game out there for everybody.
[32:31] Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting that at one
[32:34] point YouTube was not considered a career option.
[32:37] If someone said that, OK, I'm a YouTube, they said OK, but what
[32:41] do you really do for a living, right.
[32:43] But over time, they have made, they made a fortune on YouTube,
[32:47] the people who were early on it, right.
[32:49] I'm seeing the same trend also starting to happen with gaming
[32:52] as well. A lot of these young kids have
[32:55] gotten into that and their parents holding them that you're
[32:57] always playing games and then suddenly they're sitting in a
[33:00] competition and competing for prizes, right?
[33:03] So that is starting to happen. What what are you seeing there?
[33:07] Do you think it will become a profession like YouTube in in
[33:10] the coming years? I think so.
[33:13] I think you're talking about kind of like E sports athletes,
[33:15] I suppose. Yeah, I, I, I think, well, I
[33:19] think The thing is that everybody these days, I think it
[33:23] OK, if you grew up, I think in the 80s and 90s, I think you,
[33:29] you probably have this more of this dialogue where like parents
[33:32] are like, why are you spending all your time on gaming?
[33:35] This is bad for you. It's violent.
[33:37] It's gonna rock your prey. Da, da, da.
[33:41] The average gamer today is like in their 30s, right?
[33:44] So you me, you know, even though you play GT, you're a gamer.
[33:50] You know, the average person on the street, 30s is a gamer.
[33:55] I think the truth is people are like even the young kids, right?
[33:59] They're spending more time on roadblocks than they are on any
[34:01] other social network. Like most kids out there today.
[34:04] I would say 90% are gamers. So it's it's gaming as a hobby,
[34:08] as an interest has become mainstream.
[34:11] It is part of everyday pop culture and mainstream culture.
[34:16] And so we see like, for example, the Roblox ecosystem, you have
[34:20] kids building their own games and developing their own games.
[34:23] That's great. And some of them, you know,
[34:25] managed to create really games that resonate with that audience
[34:29] and they make money and revenue out of it.
[34:30] I know people who have, for example, earned their college,
[34:34] you know, college tuition from from that.
[34:37] There's that you're ready. You know, there's also like, I
[34:41] guess what you're saying around E sports athletes, which is the
[34:44] comparison you're making to to Youtubers.
[34:47] You know, I think that's been around for a while now and I
[34:51] think, you know, they're called E sports athletes for a reason,
[34:53] because you know, they can do it.
[34:56] They're good at what they do. They play, you know, they play
[34:58] really well. They train for it, right, with
[35:01] strategy. There's reflexes, there's all
[35:03] things that go into it. I could not be an E sports.
[35:08] First of all, I think I have to pay people to come and watch,
[35:10] you know, the other way around. But but you know, I think even
[35:17] for E sports athletes, similar to to sports athlete, they're
[35:21] they have a particular, I guess, limited timeline to their career
[35:26] after you typically after you get to a certain age, you're
[35:30] just not as fast and so they don't make it kind of retire
[35:35] from that as well. So as I think something to to
[35:38] aspire to, if that's your interest, I think that that
[35:40] makes sense. I don't think it's going to be
[35:42] as I don't think there's the same longevity there is to to
[35:46] you tubing, right. So, you know, Mr. Beast could
[35:49] probably go on and and evolve, right?
[35:52] And and, and and reinvent himself.
[35:54] But perhaps as a esports athlete, you can't really do
[35:57] that in the same way, although I'm sure they will, you know,
[36:00] it's life is long and I'm sure they'll have other, other things
[36:04] besides esports athletes that they they go on to do So, Yeah.
[36:08] Yeah, absolutely. And that was a very interesting
[36:11] start. You shared, shared about the 30
[36:14] year olds are playing games. So what that means is that as a
[36:18] category it's just not limited to early teens or 20s.
[36:21] It's also. Going beyond.
[36:23] Those ages, so that means there is longevity in the industry
[36:26] itself and people stay hooked for long longer periods.
[36:30] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like I said, there's a
[36:32] game for everybody, right? So, you know, my my
[36:36] mother-in-law plays Candy Crush. She's in her 60s.
[36:39] Like that's hard game, right? I'm maybe not really Candy Crush
[36:43] so much, but playing other games.
[36:45] You know, my nephews are playing Roblox and Minecraft and
[36:48] they're, you know, there's nine and seven and teenagers going to
[36:51] play something else, you know. So I think there's a game for
[36:54] everybody. I think gaming is just
[36:56] mainstream now and I I I love that of course.
[37:02] Absolutely. And and at one point Meta, Meta
[37:05] was, was a big term, right? And Mark Zuckerberg just went
[37:10] all in and renamed the entire organization to Meta.
[37:13] What do you, what do you think about that initiative?
[37:16] Do you think it's still on? Do you think it will be the
[37:18] greatest game ever built that everyone will be on there with
[37:21] the digital avatars doing live virtually?
[37:25] What do you think about that? I think the metaverse already
[37:29] exists. I think if you think about what
[37:33] they mean when it's a metaverse, it's like, you know, a bunch of
[37:35] people playing together. That exists already in Roblox.
[37:38] Roblox is a metaverse. It doesn't look the way that you
[37:40] want it, if maybe not as Hollywood.
[37:42] It's not radio player one. It's not, you know, it doesn't
[37:45] look like that, but it is, you know, the definition of it kind
[37:49] of already, I think already manifests itself and and in
[37:53] Roblox or even, you know, if you perhaps so that's why I said
[37:56] like Fortnite, you know, those those games already exist.
[37:59] The metaverse already exists there, just perhaps not in the
[38:03] way that they envisioned it. Yeah, absolutely.
[38:07] Quite interesting. And now to the last question
[38:09] before we do the rapid fire around and this is what, what do
[38:13] you see the future look like in the next five years in the
[38:16] gaming space as well as gaming applied to consumer apps?
[38:19] Yeah, I think it's it's a really exciting space.
[38:23] I think gaming applied to consumer apps it's it's you
[38:26] know, I think we saw the first generation with successfully
[38:31] done by like Duolingo, right, incredible success.
[38:34] And I think now we're going to evolve into a next site age over
[38:38] that, where we're kind of, you know, the, the so-called the
[38:43] gamification or playable apps can become more sophisticated.
[38:45] It won't just be about like game design mechanics.
[38:47] It's going to be really about everything that we talked about,
[38:49] right? And how do you design economy,
[38:51] life, operations, use acquisition on everything
[38:54] tidying together. So I think we're going to see a
[38:56] second age of that. And, and I'm, I'm really excited
[39:00] and obviously I hope that some of our, our portfolio companies
[39:03] will be those golden stars and those generation.
[39:06] I think in gaming and with consumer as well and playable
[39:10] apps, you know, we see that the hurdle to development is
[39:15] becoming kind of lower and lower, right?
[39:17] And, and that's a great thing. I think that's exciting for
[39:21] founders because you can do more with less, you can do more with
[39:24] fewer people, you can do it faster, you can validate faster
[39:27] as to whether your, your idea and your hypothesis has legs.
[39:32] I do think that that creates more pressure on things like how
[39:37] do you, how do you distribute more successfully than everybody
[39:40] else, right? Distribution is destiny, as they
[39:42] say. So I think, you know, we're
[39:44] we're going to see a lot more competition on that side.
[39:47] And I think that's, that's, that's, that's also really
[39:52] exciting, right? Because if you think about how,
[39:56] how are people discovering new products and experiences these
[39:59] days, like, you know, I don't know what you're using.
[40:03] You know, I'm on Chad GPC, I'm on perplexity.
[40:06] I want everything. I'm very, I'm more and more not
[40:11] on Google anymore, not really Googling things as much anymore.
[40:15] You know, I'm so so like, what does the next, I guess, how does
[40:21] user acquisition look like in that age?
[40:24] And I think we've already started with like, you know,
[40:26] people talking about how do you do your AI engine optimization,
[40:29] make sure your discover crawl and you know, index and all of
[40:32] that. That's like first step, right?
[40:33] But eventually is there, is there a new advertising or ad
[40:37] network paradigm in this year? I don't, I don't know.
[40:40] I would expect so. And I think that as AVC creates
[40:43] also exciting opportunities for us as investors, for people, as
[40:48] founders, for people thinking about distribution and how do I
[40:50] stand out? Because there's just more and
[40:53] more content out there. And you're fighting against
[40:55] YouTube and you're fighting against Roblox, you're fighting
[40:57] against another app and another game.
[40:59] So it's a big challenge to to tackle for sure.
[41:04] Yeah, absolutely. It would be interesting to watch
[41:06] out. Now to the rapid fire round.
[41:08] I'll ask you 6 quick questions about the investing you're doing
[41:12] and you have to give 6 quick answers, right?
[41:14] The first is what are the sectors and regions investing?
[41:18] Sectors and regions reinvested. We invest globally at place.
[41:22] So we have I want to say 30% of our portfolio companies in
[41:26] Europe, 15 to 20 in North America and the rest of the
[41:28] world. We're not afraid of investing
[41:31] in, in new markets. We've invested in Turkey since
[41:34] 2018. We've we've done our first
[41:36] investment in Romania last year as well.
[41:38] So we're we're definitely global.
[41:40] We're looking for founders who are building global companies,
[41:43] right? Global billion dollar companies,
[41:46] sectors that we invest in gaming for sure.
[41:49] So if you're building game studio, games publisher, if
[41:51] you're building gaming adjacent technology like you talked about
[41:55] where there's an AI, where there's an, you know, payment,
[41:57] something else, we we are interested in that and we invest
[42:02] in playable apps. So anywhere any consumer
[42:05] application experience where learnings from free to play
[42:08] gaming can be applied into a new space.
[42:11] Absolutely. What's the typical stage of
[42:13] investment? We are early stage investors.
[42:16] We love to come in at the precede and seat stage
[42:19] especially. We will also potentially do a
[42:22] Series A, But yeah, our sweet spot I would say is Precede and
[42:25] seat. Got it.
[42:26] Do you lead rounds? Yes, we lead rounds.
[42:30] We also call lead rounds. So you know, we're, we're, I
[42:33] think we're very collaborative investor in that sense.
[42:37] Great. What's the typical text size you
[42:39] put in? Our typical check size ranges,
[42:42] so I would say the pre C stages starts from a million upwards.
[42:46] We've done 5 million also at Series A, so it's a pretty broad
[42:49] range I would say. Got it.
[42:53] Very Can founders get in touch in cases directly?
[42:57] Sure, you can get in touch with me on X.
[43:00] I'm at the handle PPPHYL. Very inventive.
[43:05] She can also connect with me on LinkedIn or drop me an e-mail.
[43:09] I'm at Felicia at play dot VC, so Felicia's just spelled my
[43:13] name PHYLICIA at play dot VC. Absolutely.
[43:18] Last one, where can our listeners follow you?
[43:21] They can follow me on X and on LinkedIn as well.
[43:26] Awesome, I'll make sure to put those links in the show notes
[43:28] below. Thanks so much for making time
[43:30] for this, was a very enjoyable conversation for me.
[43:33] Thank you for making this. Thanks so much.
[43:35] For chat, thank you.

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