# Founder10x - From $500M Exit to Reinventing Software - Shay Levi, Co-founder & CEO, Unframe

An episode of [VC10X - Investing, Venture Capital, Asset Management, Family Office, Wealth Management](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1632806986), 11 Nov 2025, 42 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/a453ddd4/podcast/play/110973398/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2025-10-10%2F412202627-44100-2-0a9e9f55d8d1.mp3

After selling your company for half a billion dollars, what do you do next? Our guest, Shay Levi, decided to start all over again with an even more ambitious mission. Shay previously co-founded the API security giant Noname Security, which was acquired by Akamai for a staggering $500 million. Now, he's back with Unframe, a company taking on the entire software industry with a radical promise: they'll build your custom software for free, and you only pay if it delivers a real impact. Today, Shay walks us through his incredible journey, the contrarian thinking behind his new venture, and how Unframe is using AI to build working solutions in just a matter of days. ⭐ Sponsored by Podcast10x - Podcasting agency for VCs - https://podcast10x.com VC10X website - https://VC10X.com/ Unframe website - https://unframe.ai Shay Levi on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaylevi2 🎙️ Hosted by Prashant Choubey Follow Prashant on X - https://x.com/ChoubeySahab Follow Prashant on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/choubeysahab Timestamps: (00:00) - Introduction to Unframe's business model and value proposition (01:07) - Shay Levy's background and Noname Security's $500M exit (02:52) - Founding story of Noname Security (04:51) - Difficult moments and challenges during the Noname journey (07:05) - Learning from failures and improving processes (08:22) - Decision to start Unframe after successful exit (11:38) - How Unframe's business model works in practice (14:44) - Pricing structure and customer alignment (17:14) - Managing client expectations and feature requests (19:24) - Using AI tools for building solutions quickly (21:45) - AI models and developer tools used at Unframe (22:34) - Team structure for building solutions (23:45) - Building blocks approach and platform architecture (24:00) - Early days GTM strategy and customer acquisition (25:39) - Emerging from stealth with $50M funding (27:54) - Fundraising experience and investor reactions (30:41) - Positioning Unframe as a foundational platform (32:21) - Product-market fit indicators for Unframe (34:06) - Building a moat and competitive advantages (37:40) - Lessons learned from Noname Security (38:40) - Biggest learning as a founder: the importance of hard work (41:24) - Closing remarks For sponsorship or guest appearance requests, write to prashantchoubey3@gmail.com Subscribe to VC10X on Youtube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts.

## Transcript

[0:00] I looked at the market and I kind of understood that the
[0:02] world is going to need something like unframe because existing
[0:05] companies and incumbents are just trying to get themselves
[0:10] value out of AI. They're trying to take instead
[0:13] of give. I had this idea in my mind where
[0:16] software can really work in the way that you just ask for it,
[0:20] you get it, and only if it made an impact, you pay for it.
[0:23] And then you guys build that software for them, you do not
[0:27] charge them upfront I suppose. The build is completely free, we
[0:30] really don't charge you a time, you only license and you pay per
[0:34] solution per year, just like you pay any other SAS only if you
[0:38] like the outcome. When you're saying you're
[0:39] building solutions in a week, that means you are also using AI
[0:43] extensively to, you know, build those solutions.
[0:46] And I've heard a divided views on that and that how capable AI
[0:50] is at this point, let's say AI coding tools etc.
[0:53] App generators don't work well. You're never going to get a
[0:56] working app with those. That's pointless.
[0:58] Vibe coding is nice because but but you need disciplined
[1:01] developers, not ones that just let the vibe coding and commit
[1:04] it immediately. That's not going to work.
[1:09] After selling your company for half a billion dollars, what do
[1:12] you do next? Our guest Cher Levy decided to
[1:15] start all over again with an even ambitious project.
[1:18] Cher previously Co founded the API security giant No Name
[1:21] Security, which was acquired by Akamai for a staggering $500
[1:25] million. Now he's back with Enframe, a
[1:27] company taking on the entire software industry with a radical
[1:31] promise they'll build your custom software for free and you
[1:34] only pay for it once it delivers real impact.
[1:36] Today, Cher walks us through his incredible journey, the country
[1:39] and thinking behind this new venture and how Onframe is using
[1:43] AI to build working solutions in a matter of days, not months.
[1:47] So without wasting any time, let's dive straight in.
[1:49] This episode is sponsored by my own podcasting agency called
[1:53] Podcast NX, where they help venture capitalists, asset
[1:56] managers, allocators and family offices and starting their own
[1:59] podcast and building a strong brand.
[2:02] Podcast NX is designed in a way to work well with the busy
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[2:12] If you're looking to build a strong investor brand, starting
[2:15] a podcast should be right up your priority list.
[2:18] It's the only form of marketing where you can showcase your
[2:21] strong network. In other words, access to
[2:24] limited partners and founders and grow that network further.
[2:28] And contrary to what most people here, it's still very early to
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[2:34] newsletters and thousand X more blogs than there are podcasts in
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[2:44] I'll make sure to add the link in the description below.
[2:47] Enjoy this episode. Hey Shai, so good to have you on
[2:49] the VC10X podcast. How are you doing?
[2:52] Pretty good. How are you?
[2:54] Very well, thank you. Your journey has been remarkable
[2:57] and you Co founded No Name Security which was acquired by
[3:00] Akamai for a reported $500 million.
[3:04] Could you walk us through the phony story of No Name and the
[3:06] most pivotal decisions that led to that successful exit?
[3:10] Sure. So yeah.
[3:11] So the journey of no name pretty interesting.
[3:13] We started it in 2020. I Co founded it together with
[3:18] Oz. Oz was the Ceoi was the CTO.
[3:21] We grew super fast. I've known him was like a very
[3:26] rapidly growing company. Right through the course of four
[3:29] years we grew to about 250 people.
[3:32] At the time we were acquired by Akamai 4, half a billion
[3:36] dollars, which was pretty good outcome for sure.
[3:39] You know, we in between think about it like that 2020, we
[3:43] started right before COVID and there was the COVID thing.
[3:47] Then after COVID 2022 was a very tricky year in terms of the
[3:52] stock market. If you think about it like that,
[3:54] like the market slowed down. And so there was that and then
[3:58] end of 2022 LLM moment, right the GPT moment like those those
[4:08] years were crazy every like you felt every day is so, so it was
[4:13] very, very, very interesting time.
[4:15] No name operated in the world of API security.
[4:19] When we started, there were already incumbents, there were
[4:22] already companies doing that. The problem space of API
[4:25] security wasn't necessarily as widely known.
[4:27] And so we understood that it is going to be as widely known.
[4:30] And so we have to play aggressive.
[4:31] And so no name played aggressive throughout its entire journey.
[4:35] Growth, sales, R&D, like everything played super
[4:38] aggressive because the market was there, right.
[4:43] Yeah. If you if you want me to go down
[4:45] into a particular particular detail or something like that,
[4:47] feel free. But otherwise, I think that's a
[4:49] good generalized answer. Absolutely, quite interesting
[4:52] and quite a journey there and having the exit of half a
[4:55] billion dollars is quite incredible right in itself.
[4:58] Can you take us behind the scenes to what were some of
[5:02] those difficult moments or vulnerable moments which are
[5:05] always there in any startup story, right, Which happened in
[5:08] that no name journey and what learnings did they bring you?
[5:12] Oh, the hardships you mean. OK, so everyone, everyone that
[5:16] did a startup always say it's the ups and downs and the downs
[5:19] are really rough. Like they get you pretty beat
[5:23] up. Like there were areas where, you
[5:26] know, you started engaging with a certain customer or prospect
[5:30] that is very hard to get and then they tried the solution.
[5:34] The solution just doesn't work. And you're like, how could we,
[5:37] how did you fuck it up? And then obviously because
[5:38] you're under a lot of pressure to to move quickly into the
[5:41] lever quickly, like it makes sense that some things will go
[5:44] amiss, right? And so had had things like that
[5:48] and then you kind of take it on on yourself, like how did we get
[5:52] to a point where the product doesn't deliver?
[5:54] Like it was so hard to get to the sale or you're working on a
[5:56] large deal and there's a Bake Off and they choose to go with
[5:59] someone else, another company and they're like, what did, what
[6:02] did we mess up? Like maybe not on the product,
[6:04] maybe it's on the sales side. And like there are many, many
[6:08] things can go wrong in a start up, right?
[6:10] Different areas and different times.
[6:12] Sometimes it's a sale, sometimes it's the R&D, sometimes it's the
[6:14] marketing. And, and in any given time, if
[6:17] you just look at the negative, then it looks like a very low
[6:20] point. Yeah.
[6:23] So it's a few of the hardships I remember are definitely like
[6:27] working on an exciting prospect and then the product doesn't
[6:30] deliver trying with a very exciting prospect that we, you
[6:33] know, we want to make it happen and they choose someone else.
[6:36] But those hardships made us better.
[6:38] You know, if the solution didn't deliver, then we'd understood
[6:40] what what failed, took it internally and made sure next
[6:43] time it's spot on. If we messed up our sales
[6:47] process, we started to look into that and see where did we not
[6:50] engage properly with a customer, Why did they pick someone else?
[6:53] Maybe our references aren't strong enough, Things like that.
[6:56] Absolutely. I completely relate to that.
[6:58] I also run a few businesses, not not at a massive scale or
[7:02] venture scale. They are mostly bootstrap, but
[7:05] still the learnings and experiences are very similar.
[7:08] You know, when you go on a sales call, you know, it can be either
[7:12] what you're offering that's not sufficient for them, or they
[7:16] just drop the ball somewhere and go for someone else and you're
[7:20] left wondering where did you not do right?
[7:22] Maybe it's the serious process, like you said.
[7:24] So yeah, absolutely. And it's.
[7:26] Definitely disheartening right when it happens because not like
[7:29] a point in time think people think those hardships you you
[7:32] work towards something right in a start up, especially a large
[7:35] deal. You work, work, work, work, work
[7:37] and then it messes up. Then you really like, oof, can
[7:41] take you the wind out of your sails, right?
[7:44] And like, that's, that's and the same thing with finally getting
[7:48] to the point where they deploy it and try it and they're like,
[7:51] oh, it, it messed up And so why did it mess up?
[7:53] But how do, how do we get to that point?
[7:55] So yeah, could, could be, could you could have hardships in in
[7:59] various different areas for sure.
[8:02] Absolutely, completely agree. And having that sort of massive
[8:06] exit in a way right after that, a lot of founders go through
[8:11] this sort of existential crisis in a way they don't know what to
[8:15] do next. Should we just sit around or
[8:17] should we, you know, help onto another project or maybe become
[8:21] AVC? You know a lot.
[8:22] Of people do that so. What was that, that internal
[8:26] conversation that you had that, OK, I've had a successful exit,
[8:29] I can do a lot of things or maybe not do a lot of things.
[8:32] Why did you choose to go again into the startup world and start
[8:35] on Frame AI? Yeah.
[8:37] So when I looked at the, you know, there was the LLM moment,
[8:41] right. And then if, you know, take us
[8:44] half a year later or something like that, I looked at the
[8:47] market and I kind of understood that the world is going to need
[8:49] something like on frame because existing companies and
[8:52] incumbents are just trying to get themselves value out of AI.
[8:57] Like they're trying to, to increase their ticket size.
[9:01] They're trying to, they're trying to take instead of give,
[9:04] instead of giving their customers and their companies
[9:07] and the enterprise out there the benefit of AI, like the
[9:10] productivity improvement and the process automations and, and
[9:14] doing things that were previously impossible.
[9:18] They were trying to think how can they use AI to benefit them
[9:21] and how can they get more out of the enterprise they're working
[9:24] with. And I didn't like that motion so
[9:26] much. And I felt the same happened
[9:27] with consultancies that suddenly started taking huge ticket sizes
[9:31] for consulting on AI and like custom bills, people offer you
[9:35] custom bills and they charge you a fortune and they take long
[9:38] and, and I thought everything is going to need to be transformed.
[9:41] So much is going to need to be transformed if someone would
[9:44] just offer it in a way that is very tailored, but then take
[9:49] really short time to value, like do it in a week.
[9:53] Because now with AI you can really be fast.
[9:56] If you will have the core components of the different, you
[9:58] know, different AI use cases are going to require this, the same
[10:01] components. You're going to have those
[10:02] components available and you're going to use AI and you're going
[10:05] to move fast. You're going to be able to
[10:07] deliver AI use cases really, really quickly, really in a
[10:10] matter of days, you're going to be able to even offer them in a
[10:15] try them, see if it gives you the value and only then license.
[10:18] And I thought about this world and I had this this idea in my
[10:21] mind where software can really work in the way that you just
[10:25] ask for it, you get it, and only if it made an impact, you pay
[10:29] for it. And I thought, why isn't it like
[10:31] that? Maybe someone will do it.
[10:33] And I waited and I waited and I waited and no one was doing it.
[10:36] And at some point it just burned so much in me.
[10:38] Then I was like, I'm going to do it.
[10:39] And so it was very clear to me when I departed from no name
[10:43] that this is what I'm going to do.
[10:45] This is this is what I'm going to chase.
[10:46] Everything is going to have to be reinvented with AI.
[10:49] I'm going to build a company that gives tailored solutions
[10:53] that are going to be very accurate, very valuable, very
[10:56] fat, like everything is going to be high quality so much that the
[10:59] customer can have the choice if they want to license it or not
[11:02] when they get it tailored to their problem.
[11:05] And that's what Unframe does. And we do it at scale and we
[11:07] serve a lot of enterprises. We mainly work with enterprises
[11:11] and I'm happy we had the success we had because, you know,
[11:14] starting a second journey, you're kind of concerned that
[11:17] you're going to start something and it's not going to work out
[11:19] so well. And why do you waste your time?
[11:21] Like you already have financial freedom to do anything you ever
[11:24] like, do whatever. But when you have like this goal
[11:27] in your mind, especially entrepreneurs, we can't let that
[11:30] go. Like you have this idea and you
[11:32] know, it sits, it sits, it's bruised, it bruised.
[11:34] And then it's like, I'm, I'm going to do it.
[11:36] And so I I went there and did it.
[11:38] Absolutely. Yeah, quite interesting.
[11:41] And so how does this work in practice?
[11:43] So just to dig deeper, a few questions, right.
[11:46] So let's say a company wants to work with you, they need a
[11:49] particular solution or let's say a software, they're going to ask
[11:53] on frame that can you build this for me, right.
[11:56] And then you guys build that software for them.
[11:58] You do not charge them upfront I suppose.
[12:01] So you build that for them and then you show it to them that
[12:05] can this help? And then they say would we like
[12:08] to license it and pay for it or not?
[12:11] And then you can also license the same software to other
[12:13] companies as well since you own the software.
[12:17] I'll give you it's, it's it's somewhat like that, but they
[12:20] usually don't come with come to us with a very detailed software
[12:23] spec in in today world. They talk in AI opportunities or
[12:28] AI like things they want to tackle with AI to make make them
[12:32] better, automate them, do something like that.
[12:33] So they usually come in the form of A use case.
[12:36] We have an AI use case. This is where we want AI to help
[12:39] us and they don't know to describe it to the tiniest
[12:43] details definitely because it's kind of new.
[12:45] So they talk to us and we ask them some questions about what
[12:48] they currently doing, what are they hoping to we, we know to do
[12:51] it quite well to, to dig deep on a problem statement to find out
[12:55] what's actually going on. Then we come to the conclusion
[12:58] of how an A good solution for them would look like.
[13:00] And we tell them, look, we're going to bring the solution to
[13:03] life at the end of the road. If you guys like the solution
[13:07] and one license it, it's going to cost $150,000 per year,
[13:11] $200,000 per year. It ranges between 75K to 500K
[13:16] somewhere like that, like it's a large range, but so they will
[13:19] know in advance how much will it cost should they want a license.
[13:22] Then they say, OK, that's fine with us, show us the solution.
[13:25] We go make it, bring it into reality really quickly.
[13:29] In a matter of a week, they get it ready and they can go ahead
[13:32] and try it, integrate it to their own environment, try it on
[13:35] their own data, see if it does what they expected it to do.
[13:38] See if the business user like it, see if it makes an impact.
[13:41] If it does, then they say, you know what, I actually like it.
[13:44] I want to keep it long term. Let me subscribe and the
[13:47] subscribe and we charge per solution per year.
[13:49] And after we do one solution with an enterprise, they're
[13:52] usually so, you know, so excited with about the engagement and
[13:56] the way they do things with enframe that they usually do a
[13:58] lot more solutions. Like we have a cases where we
[14:01] have 15 or 20 different solutions running on a single
[14:04] environment just because it was so easy to get going.
[14:09] So yeah, that that's how we, that's how we operate.
[14:13] And you, you ask a question about the IP, we usually don't
[14:16] take the same exact solution to someone else.
[14:19] It usually kind of differs. You still need tailoring and you
[14:22] still, this is the reason we have this concept of building
[14:24] blocks. We already have the building
[14:26] blocks. And a good analogy is Lego
[14:27] bricks. We already have the Lego bricks.
[14:30] So when we encounter a new use case, we assemble the Lego
[14:32] bricks that look a bit differently for that person.
[14:36] And this is the reason we are quick in time to value is
[14:38] because we look at the tech components like Lego bricks,
[14:41] assemble them together. Go ahead, let's move on.
[14:44] Absolutely. Yeah.
[14:44] Thanks for sharing that. And there are different kind of
[14:47] pricing models working around these kind of companies like
[14:52] yours, right? So what 1 is that OK, we're
[14:54] going to have one cause wherein we build the solution.
[14:57] There's going to be a cost for that and then right there will
[15:00] be a different pricing that will be applicable for subscribing
[15:04] that will be recurring right, which is slightly lower than the
[15:07] upfront in a building cost. Do you follow similar model or
[15:11] is that? Different.
[15:12] So we the build is completely free.
[15:15] We really don't charge you a nine, you only license and you
[15:18] pay per solution per year just like you pay any other SAS.
[15:21] Only if you like the outcome you get a ready solution.
[15:25] You can go ahead and run. By the way, you don't have to
[15:27] run it as a SAS. In many regulated industries,
[15:29] they run it and their perimeter and we're completely fine with
[15:32] that. So you get a container that you
[15:34] can run in your environment without any data leaving.
[15:37] You pay subscription. So you get all the benefits of
[15:39] managed. So we manage their feature
[15:41] request support, troubleshooting, that's what you
[15:43] pay for and that's it. There's no other pay.
[15:46] You don't pay us for the time you don't pay us.
[15:47] And what I like about this, that means that unframing the
[15:51] customer are very well aligned. If we deliver slow, that's on
[15:55] us. That's not on them.
[15:56] They don't pay us for our time. We will be losing.
[15:59] If we deliver low quality, that's not on them.
[16:02] They didn't commit in advance that they're going to buy it,
[16:04] that's on us. And so I like the full alignment
[16:07] with in on frame. I like that was what said in my
[16:10] mind, I was like, now there's an opportunity to do so much
[16:15] because everyone needs AI to really reform how they they
[16:18] operate. And we can do it right.
[16:21] We can do it in a way that's very aligned, that gives value.
[16:25] We're not a nonprofit. We also want to make something.
[16:28] But it's very much about giving, being a good partner, giving,
[16:31] giving more solutions, more use cases, more value and building
[16:35] on Frame as a large company throughout.
[16:37] Absolutely. So I believe when you discuss
[16:40] that, OK, this is going to be a potential solution we are going
[16:42] to build for you. Do you agree that OK, we should
[16:46] start working on this? You will have an opt in from
[16:48] them and then it can also happen that, OK, you spend your amount
[16:53] of time and effort in building that solution and then they say
[16:58] that OK, we don't like it or maybe be more demanding that OK,
[17:02] we want this feature as well or that feature as well.
[17:04] There are all types of clients, right?
[17:06] So how do you manage it on that situation that a client can drop
[17:10] off because of such things as well, but your effort has
[17:13] already gone in? Yeah.
[17:14] So we, we tell them like we usually to tell them in advance,
[17:18] like this is going to be, you know, the, the, the, this is the
[17:22] solution that we envision. You know, we let them kind of,
[17:26] we talk through it, we make sure we're aligned.
[17:28] This is how we're going to evaluate it.
[17:30] This is how you're going to test it like that.
[17:31] They otherwise they get something and they're like, OK,
[17:33] what do we do now? So we want to in advance plan
[17:35] how they're going to now they pay per solution per year
[17:39] because it includes feature requests and enhancement and
[17:42] support. And so if they need more things
[17:44] in the solution that's included in their price, like we do that
[17:48] where they don't have to pay extra.
[17:50] And so again, it's all about giving.
[17:51] We obviously don't want to go into the point where they just
[17:54] sending us on an endless Rd. for months on end and they don't
[17:58] plan to ever license. That's a bit of an abuse of the
[18:01] system. But to tell you the truth, I, I
[18:04] found most, most people and definitely most enterprise and
[18:08] they're rather fair. They understand your model.
[18:10] They're not trying to abuse you. If they say they need more
[18:13] things that they needed in order to be able to license and to
[18:15] understand the value, they won't just drag you for the purpose of
[18:18] dragging you. That will be like, who does
[18:21] that? Like there's better things to do
[18:23] with your time, right? And so that's, that's what we
[18:25] found in our frame is very, it's very like servant to its
[18:29] customers. And so if they need more stuff,
[18:31] they get more stuff if they need.
[18:33] And so it's very rare that we say, okay, we cut it here.
[18:36] Sorry guys, we're done. But we do try to stick to the
[18:40] original. What we said we're gonna do how
[18:44] we're gonna evaluate it. How are we gonna do?
[18:46] Cuz otherwise it gets into into the sticky thing that, that the
[18:50] customer even isn't even sure like how, how am I going to
[18:53] evaluate it? How am I going to.
[18:54] So this plan in advance is a good thing to have and it's
[18:58] really quick. It doesn't take us long.
[18:59] We plan it in about two days. We show them, we say this is and
[19:03] there we go. And we kick start and about a
[19:05] week later they already have something they can go ahead test
[19:07] it, try it. It's super fast.
[19:09] Absolutely. And when you're saying you're
[19:12] building solutions in a week, that means you are also using AI
[19:16] extensively to you know, build those solutions.
[19:18] And I've heard a divided views on that, that how capable AI is
[19:23] at this point, let's say AI coding tools, etcetera.
[19:27] Are they actually capable enough to build ads on their own cells?
[19:31] Sometimes I've seen developers say, OK, just made it worse.
[19:34] You know, it took me more time to correct the code than if I
[19:37] would have originally coded it myself, right?
[19:39] What's what's your take on that? What?
[19:42] If you could share what tools you're using internally that are
[19:47] you find actually are better or more accurate than others, sure.
[19:50] So I definitely agree the the the the vibe coding it, it
[20:00] accelerates what the developer does, but definitely not app
[20:04] generators, those that does not work at all.
[20:06] So if there's some quick app generators where you try to tell
[20:09] it what the app should do and try it, that doesn't work at
[20:11] all. And the the vibe coding is
[20:14] helpful sometimes, but again, you need coders to actually code
[20:17] or correct the code. Maybe it helps the coders, makes
[20:20] them 2030% more efficient, whatever.
[20:23] But you still need coders and the only way for.
[20:25] To operate is not to start from scratch every time.
[20:28] That will not work at all. We need to have core building
[20:31] blocks in our platform that make up our platform that actually
[20:34] enable us to, you know, to to to build on top of to get the next
[20:38] use case out. That's the only way to do it.
[20:41] And so this is kind of our deep IP is that platform and the
[20:45] strong building blocks within it that we build throughout the
[20:48] time because we encounter more use cases and more use cases and
[20:51] more use cases that enable us to tackle, you know, variety of
[20:57] solution. You asked me what I found work
[20:59] well, app generators don't work well.
[21:02] You're never going to get a working up with those.
[21:04] That's pointless. Vibe coding is nice because,
[21:08] but, but you need discipline developers, not ones that just
[21:11] let the vibe coding and committed immediately.
[21:13] That's not going to work at all. We we both know that.
[21:17] So you need to be smart, but it does make you more efficient if
[21:20] you're smart about it, if you know how to use it.
[21:22] And I still think you should, you definitely shouldn't ignore
[21:26] AI as a developer, right? And so, yeah, it whether it's
[21:30] cursor that is your favorite ID or if you you didn't switch an
[21:34] ID yet and you just want to use get up copilot, that's still all
[21:37] right. It's still it still does the job
[21:39] in my opinion. Yeah, those are those are the 2
[21:43] main ones. I don't think there's much
[21:44] others. Absolutely, and within these
[21:46] there are different models. Oh, which model?
[21:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which not.
[21:50] Yeah. So.
[21:51] So we don't hold our, our, our. We let the developers usually
[21:55] choose. I think there was a time where
[21:58] the majority were clawed. I think for coding that was
[22:02] popular. I think that Grok Code is doing
[22:05] a pretty good job. I don't know if some switch,
[22:07] some didn't, so it's hard for me to tell you.
[22:11] I'm not quite sure the developers have their choice, as
[22:14] long as it's one of the approved models, obviously.
[22:16] So they can use GPT, they can use Claw, they can use Grok,
[22:20] they can use Gemini. Let them choose.
[22:22] Yeah, absolutely. So how it works is that you're
[22:26] saying that a singular developer will, you know, draft out and
[22:29] build that solution in a week's time or will a team be deployed
[22:33] on that? No.
[22:34] So it's one to two people usually, usually one person.
[22:38] The the better we get, the less it requires because the the main
[22:41] job of that person that is composing the solution, if you
[22:45] will, is to assemble the Lego bricks.
[22:47] It's already like he has the Lego bricks almost in all cases.
[22:50] He doesn't need to come up with a new form of a new piece.
[22:52] The pieces are there. It's about sitting and composing
[22:55] the Lego basically create writing the Lego instructions,
[22:59] if you will, like, OK, I'm assembling a car.
[23:01] These are the parts I need. Let me quickly put them
[23:03] together. Let's go.
[23:04] So it's a pretty, I wouldn't say simple.
[23:08] It's not completely because you still need to, you know, think
[23:12] about it, you have Legos, you still need to build a car.
[23:13] So that might be not so simple, but but it's a much nicer task
[23:17] than trying to code a whole new thing from scratch.
[23:20] Like that will take months on end.
[23:22] That will not be you will not be able to maintain on frames model
[23:26] like a business model. If you didn't, if you didn't
[23:29] have the building blocks, there was no way.
[23:31] Absolutely. So you have, you know,
[23:33] streamlined the process by building those building blocks
[23:35] 1st and then now it's much easier for you.
[23:38] Exactly, Exactly. And knowing how to engage with
[23:41] customers, understanding how the process is going to look like.
[23:44] Yeah, for sure. Got it.
[23:45] Awesome. And let's talk about the you're
[23:49] still in the early days of starting on frame.
[23:52] You know, you have some clients now, but so let's talk about
[23:56] those early days when you were just trying to validate the
[23:58] idea, you know, get some early clients.
[24:00] You know what was is called a sort of the GTM process for you
[24:04] or how did you start approaching clients to you know, get going?
[24:08] So you know, you use everything you can in the beginning, you
[24:12] use your personal network, you go to those, you go to local
[24:17] events anywhere 200, you know, 200 directors in New Jersey
[24:24] coming to a convention thing and you're there with a booth like
[24:27] you do anything you can hustle, hustle.
[24:31] You're you're trying to to go anywhere, any, any anyone that
[24:34] will give you a second look. You just you run with like you
[24:37] have to because you kind of have to get out of this static
[24:41] friction. You have to get going and so you
[24:43] just push, push, push, push. And so, you know, personal
[24:46] network is good reaching even cold out, reaching to people on
[24:50] LinkedIn, being on those weird events.
[24:54] Some are small, some are big events.
[24:56] You just go there to you put your presence, you know, to
[24:58] speak about your problem. Well, that's, that's the, that's
[25:03] the only way. And hopefully someone will I, I
[25:05] would resonate with your idea, understand the potential and
[25:08] we'll give you, we'll give you a shot.
[25:10] And when they give you a shot, make sure you do a good job and
[25:12] start, start iterating from there.
[25:14] It wasn't necessarily easier for me because I was a second time,
[25:18] second timer. It might have been easier to
[25:20] raise. I would say that, but not
[25:22] necessarily easier in terms of the market.
[25:24] It's still a free market. Absolutely, completely agree.
[25:28] And I believe you're how how you're structured offer that, no
[25:31] upfront cost. I think that would have made it
[25:33] easier for people to, you know, start working with you and then
[25:37] see the results before, you know, committing.
[25:38] So that surely helps. So you've just immersed out of
[25:43] stealth with a massive $50 million seed round, which is a
[25:47] huge vote of confidence. How did you approach fundraising
[25:51] around this time and how was your experience compared with
[25:54] when you were doing it for for your previous company No name
[25:57] and what what were the key learnings that you took from
[25:59] that previous journey onto Onframe?
[26:03] Yeah. So it's important to say we
[26:05] raised seed and Series A kind of we, we emerge with it out of
[26:08] stealth with seed and Series A kind of together.
[26:10] So it wasn't like $50 million seed.
[26:12] We started early last year and when we when I came to raise the
[26:20] concept of UNFRAMED sounded very strange and nontrivial to a lot
[26:25] of a lot of VCC because we were talking about doing a variety of
[26:29] solutions, not a single solution.
[26:31] I take you back to that time, it was single product, single
[26:34] company. Even today, I think this is
[26:37] probably the common theme. You have a company, it does a
[26:40] single product and unframe is not unframe does a lot.
[26:43] And to them it sounded very strange.
[26:45] And so surprisingly enough, even as a second timer, it wasn't
[26:49] very trivial to race. It wasn't.
[26:51] I had to, I had to work hard, had to meet a lot of people, had
[26:55] to talk about unframe a lot of times.
[26:59] But we got over it. We, we found our VC that we, you
[27:04] know, connected with very strongly and they led the round
[27:07] and then others obviously join. And then when we came to raise
[27:10] our Series A sometime after that, it was much easier because
[27:15] at that point in time, we already came with existing
[27:17] customers, we already came with some engagement and we came
[27:20] with, we came at a point in time in which the unframed concept of
[27:24] like one company doing more than one solution sounded reasonable
[27:29] suddenly OK. And I took them back and I told
[27:32] them, do you guys remember? Like we, we talked like a year
[27:35] ago, you, you looked at me like I, I, I came off, I came from
[27:39] Mars and like, now it's like, OK.
[27:43] And I, I, I found it kind of funny because in many times
[27:46] where when you're raising, especially if you're raising for
[27:50] a non trivial idea, it's really, it's kind of rough.
[27:54] People look at you like you're especially if they have a strong
[27:58] fundamental intuition that their intuition says you're wrong,
[28:02] like they can get pretty aggressive and they can really
[28:04] lower you down. And so that that the seed was
[28:07] not was not easy, But I found it funny that the A round not that
[28:11] much longer than that, that not that much later was kind of
[28:19] like, OK, makes sense. And it's like it moved much
[28:21] faster. I didn't have to meet as much.
[28:23] I came in and it was much simpler.
[28:25] You asked about what I learned from No Name.
[28:26] So look, generally when you raise, I think you need to
[28:29] prepare the deck. The I I really believe in
[28:34] preparing the deck as a founding team, even if you don't even
[28:38] show the deck, because the the reason this process works is
[28:42] that at the time you compose the deck, you understand how your
[28:46] engagement with your other Co founders are.
[28:48] You have to refine your messaging because you can't just
[28:51] dump a lot of text into the slides.
[28:53] So you kind of narrow, narrow, you kind of this process of
[28:56] digesting it. That's the part of building a
[28:59] company. It's, it's like that will tell
[29:02] you if you have a good team that will tell you if you understand
[29:05] your problem, that will tell you if you understand your market.
[29:07] And so the deck is what you work around.
[29:10] That's kind of the start. And then if you did that, now
[29:13] you can talk about the problem. Now you can talk about the
[29:15] space, now you can talk about what you do now, etcetera,
[29:18] etcetera, etcetera. And so I didn't necessarily take
[29:21] it from no name, but that's my general tip that that I give no
[29:24] name raising never was no name operated in the cybersecurity
[29:29] space very much our four day me and my Co founder, we were very
[29:33] sought after, always based on momentum was very different
[29:38] journey to unframe. Unframe is operating in the
[29:41] unknown. AI is generally the big unknown.
[29:45] Like people are still like, is it going to change the world?
[29:47] Is it going to replace everyone or is it just the fad or like
[29:51] what is this thing? And everyday, depending how
[29:54] people wake up, the whole stock market shifts and Oracle makes a
[29:58] fortune. Oh, maybe it's just bullshit and
[30:00] it's, you know, it's like that. So we're operating in the
[30:02] unknown. So it's very different, very
[30:04] different. And no name was API security,
[30:06] cybersecurity, my home, my bread and butter.
[30:10] I didn't have that much to take in terms of fundraising from
[30:13] there. Just the general of how VCs
[30:15] operate, how you engage with them.
[30:17] There's no informal meanings with VCs.
[30:20] To anyone listening, I, you know, you and me both know it,
[30:23] but there's no informal meeting. If you go to an informal meeting
[30:26] with VC, they made the decision in that informal meeting.
[30:29] So there's some things you kind of need to know, those I took
[30:32] with me, but other stuff, not that much.
[30:35] Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for sharing that.
[30:36] And you're spoken about enterprises cutting down vendor
[30:39] sprawl and point solutions. What is Unfame's go to market
[30:43] strategy to position itself not just as another vendor, but as a
[30:47] foundational platform that simplifies the tech stack for
[30:50] them. Because OK, so that's a great
[30:52] question. But think, think back to to our
[30:54] offering, right? We said we land on a use case,
[30:56] we decide, we'll give it to you and you decide if the license.
[30:59] So they usually quite excited about this business model.
[31:02] And then if it works and we did it and we're fast, it's not just
[31:05] the business model, we're fast. We give that to them in a week.
[31:08] They usually say, wow, at the beginning it sounded too good to
[31:10] be true, but now I see it's working and it's like crazy.
[31:13] They look at us like, how did you guys do it?
[31:16] And then it starts rolling because they have so much they
[31:19] want to achieve and they were stuck on.
[31:21] They were looking at whether they're going to bring some
[31:23] consultancy, They're going to take eight months, they're going
[31:26] to build it internally, can take a year.
[31:28] And suddenly they have the sound frame that just accelerates it,
[31:32] very cost effective, isn't so expensive, much better than than
[31:36] all the alternatives they looked at.
[31:38] And so it's usually just starting to roll and roll and
[31:41] roll. And unframe has the advantage
[31:42] that all the solutions are running on a shared layer.
[31:45] So you have this core layer, which we like to call a
[31:47] knowledge fabric running within the org.
[31:50] And so all the solutions are getting better and smarter over
[31:54] time. And it's just, it's a very
[31:56] effective way to really transform your org.
[31:59] So in almost all, all cases, we're never ending in one one
[32:03] solution. It's always like if we did a
[32:05] good job, they'll want to do a lot more with us.
[32:08] Absolutely, completely agree. And since you are offering ready
[32:11] to use solutions to different businesses, what would be the
[32:15] key indicator for PMF for you going forward because there are
[32:18] different products operating for different clients?
[32:21] You mean product market fit? Yes, exactly.
[32:24] Yes. So the, the, the the product
[32:26] market fit here would be around unframe itself.
[32:28] Can it offer its model long term at scale, you know, and and like
[32:38] create those strategic engagements with enterprises,
[32:41] keeping enterprises happy throughout that process as much
[32:45] as success as we have now? Like if this trajectory will
[32:47] continue, then we actually change something like unframe,
[32:51] change something fundamental. It's not just yet another
[32:54] company. It's suddenly the whole approach
[32:56] to AI solutions and even software can change because you
[33:00] wouldn't suddenly think, wait, I so I can just ask what I want.
[33:04] I'll get it ready and I'll pay if I liked it.
[33:06] This is how software should be like it was.
[33:08] And then I wonder if people will be like, oh, that's trivial.
[33:11] I hope not because I tell let me tell you, I we sweated a lot on
[33:15] on getting this done, but that that's kind of what I think is
[33:21] the product market fit is that approach in general, every
[33:24] solution making an impact enterprises happy want to do a
[33:27] lot more solutions with us being scalable, being able to operate
[33:33] with all the enterprises that we're operating with that will
[33:37] be that will be the product market fit.
[33:40] So it's this whole it's unframe as a general, it's not the one
[33:43] individual solution, the one individual solution running,
[33:46] it's OK, it's like good. Obviously you need that in order
[33:50] to get the customer, but it's not the product market fit for
[33:54] Unframe as a company. Got it.
[33:56] And how the winter market works especially is that they are
[34:01] looking for companies that would have that winner take all kind
[34:05] of opportunity in them, right. And the kind of space you're
[34:08] operating in, I think it's hard to see that for them that OK,
[34:13] the entire market would be taken by this company and then there
[34:15] would be no other players offering the same kind of
[34:18] solution. So what?
[34:19] How do you think about building a mode around what you're
[34:21] building so that others cannot anti or there's some sort of
[34:25] Moat around it? I think it's very very hard to
[34:28] build your own on frame. It's insanely hard.
[34:30] Like I wouldn't recommend anyone and, and you asked before, I
[34:34] think VCs are mainly looking for companies with, with a lot of
[34:38] predictability. Not necessarily.
[34:40] Like that's my, my take, at least what I see from VCs, they
[34:43] much rather prefer a company doing 1 product packing,
[34:46] packaging it well, maybe it will explode and will become a giant
[34:50] company. Most cases it will be an M&A.
[34:51] But I will do my 10X10X20X depending on your, the stage
[34:55] you're in. I feel that's the that's the
[34:57] comfort zone for VCs. Not a lot of them like the moon
[35:00] shots, like moon shots is you can't have the entire, your
[35:04] entire bets being moon shots because then, well, you might
[35:07] end up with nothing. So I don't know how much
[35:09] appetite there is for moon shot, but the mode in onframe is is
[35:12] insanely is insanely deep. First of all, you need to have a
[35:15] very strong platform and very strong building blocks and very
[35:18] strong understanding of how those building blocks are going
[35:20] to look like. You need to have a very strong
[35:22] mode around how your sales process is going to go because
[35:24] you're not selling very trivially.
[35:26] You need to have a very strong process on product because you
[35:30] don't have just one product. You're a company that serves a
[35:33] lot of different enterprises, a lot of different solutions.
[35:36] It's almost like picking the hardest level on any possible
[35:39] front. Product wise.
[35:42] You you know you can get anything on your plate.
[35:45] Sales wise you can. You need to sell in a way that
[35:49] is like you, you need to listen to the problems they're saying.
[35:52] You don't come with your own problem statement.
[35:53] Also more difficult R&D wise. You need to solve things in in
[35:58] more like instead of being hyper focused on the problem you're
[36:01] solving. Oh, you need to think building
[36:02] blocks. If you build something, you need
[36:04] to build it in a building blocks.
[36:05] Everything is on the hardest level, hardest challenge.
[36:09] Even business model wise, you get paid only if you're provided
[36:13] value. That's not a very common
[36:15] business business model. Most business models is if I do
[36:18] something for you, you pay me, I give it to you and then we'll
[36:22] say maybe it gives you value, maybe not, but I that's, that's
[36:25] the usual again. So I wouldn't recommend anyone
[36:29] to, to go the route of like trying to do that.
[36:33] I think actually on frame is a winner takes all motion.
[36:37] I don't think there's a chance for a lot of companies to be
[36:40] able to offer what on frame offers.
[36:42] I, I, I even tell you like, even to myself, like onframe is a
[36:47] very hard execution challenge. It's the hardest one I could
[36:49] have ever, ever picked. It's exciting.
[36:52] I like it because I'm a second timer.
[36:54] So at least let's pick something that is, you know, challenging
[36:57] and can make a huge impact. But I think the, the motor on on
[37:00] frame is so, so deep. It's like, I don't think there's
[37:04] going to be a lot of competitors doing that.
[37:05] I think the safe choice and and the wise choice really to anyone
[37:09] building an AI pick the one product, pick the one domain, do
[37:13] the one thing, package it most likely you'll be acquired.
[37:16] You won't IPO this massive gigantic next Google, but you
[37:22] probably want to make your bang. You don't necessarily want to
[37:25] build the next. And so I, I, I, I think there's
[37:29] a lot there. Yeah, absolutely.
[37:31] And as a senior entrepreneur, what is the biggest mistake that
[37:35] you made during your time at No Name that you determine to avoid
[37:39] with on frame? I don't know if there was a
[37:41] giant mistake in No name. I think anonym operated quite
[37:44] well. Biggest mistake.
[37:48] It's hard for me to think about one particular thing that I look
[37:51] back and would say, oh, it was tragic.
[37:53] I don't know. There's a lot of learnings.
[37:55] The, the thing about learnings, you encounter them in the actual
[37:58] situation that you're in. And then it's not like the, you
[38:01] know, I have those mantras listed and that's like, I have
[38:04] to read it. It's not like that, but I
[38:06] encounter a situation and I'm like, Oh, I had this in no name.
[38:09] Oh, I messed it up then I know what to do now, right.
[38:12] And so there's just things like that, not nothing, you know,
[38:17] nothing was a good run. It was it was a great company.
[38:20] We did, we did quite well. I don't there were mistakes just
[38:23] like anything else, but I can't think of 1 like particularly
[38:26] giant thing that I'm like, I'll I have to avoid that.
[38:29] No, nothing in particular. Awesome.
[38:32] So coming to the last question before we try to close this out,
[38:35] looking back on your entire career so far, what's been your
[38:38] single biggest learning as a founder?
[38:40] Wow. Single biggest learning as a
[38:43] founder, I'll tell you my single biggest learning as in my career
[38:49] is that for success, you know, to achieve your whatever dream
[38:57] you have, you have to work really, really, really, really
[39:00] hard. It's not people say, OK, I have
[39:02] to work hard to give you a frame of mind.
[39:04] OK, let's say you're working in a nine to five, nine to six,
[39:07] nine to seven job and you have a dream you want to achieve.
[39:10] That means that I don't know. You come home, you have your
[39:14] hour, hour and a half, and then you have your second shift
[39:17] working on your dream from 8:00 to 2:00 AM, three AM and you go
[39:21] to sleep, you wake up and you do that for a year, for two years.
[39:26] That's the real life, right? That's, that's a real life.
[39:28] I know that's, that's the, that's what I always did.
[39:31] I, I get excited talking about it.
[39:33] Like when I look back, like I think about so many cases where
[39:36] I had my job and my other things that were just as much work.
[39:41] And some people might find it grim, like you work all the time
[39:45] maybe. But if you want to achieve
[39:47] something, guess what? Like prepare yourself.
[39:50] Like that's, that's it. That's what I believe.
[39:52] I, maybe some people had a stroke of luck and they were
[39:54] just thrown into it and stuff like that.
[39:57] Not for me. I, I always had another thing
[39:59] going, always had the extra thing I'm working on all the
[40:03] time. And like, I, I worked so hard,
[40:06] like so many nights for years and years and years and years.
[40:11] It was just my norm. And that's, that's the only way
[40:14] I think creates a success. So I, I, I believe to say that
[40:17] those successes overnight, I tend to think, I don't know, but
[40:21] I tend to think those are people that work nights a lot, every
[40:25] day for days on end. And, and so those people that
[40:28] you see successful somewhere and you're like, oh, how do I ever
[40:32] get to that? I'm stuck somewhere.
[40:34] It's like you finish, you know, work your regular thing and then
[40:38] good luck. Start the second thing, start
[40:40] working at it, work at it, work at it.
[40:43] And yes, it's hard. Yes, it's annoying, yes, you'll
[40:45] sleep less, you'll you'll suffer the ups and downs, you'll be
[40:48] beaten like crazy. But that's how success is built.
[40:52] That's my that's how I reflect on my career.
[40:55] Absolutely. Thanks so much for sharing that,
[40:57] that that's massive learning coming from someone who has
[41:00] exited a business for half a billion dollars in a time frame
[41:03] of four to five years, I guess, for which the business falls
[41:06] with you. And that is much less than the
[41:09] usual life cycle. Let's say the venture cycle is
[41:12] also 10 years. And that is not just overnight
[41:16] or luck, as Shay puts it. It's hard work, pure hard work.
[41:21] And he's at it again. And I wish him all the best.
[41:24] Thank you. Thanks so much for doing this
[41:26] with us, Shay, and I'm looking forward to get this out soon.
[41:28] Thank you. Thank you.
[41:29] Thank you very much.

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