# Founder10x - The $250B Patent Cliff: How AI is Reshaping Drug Discovery

An episode of [VC10X - Investing, Venture Capital, Asset Management, Family Office, Wealth Management](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1632806986), 9 Dec 2025, 25 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/a453ddd4/podcast/play/112366871/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2025-11-9%2F414044161-44100-2-935f4e8db5041.mp3

In this episode, we sit down with Caitlyn Krebs, Co-founder and CEO of Nalu Bio, to discuss how her company is leveraging generative AI to revolutionize drug discovery. Caitlyn shares how they are creating novel chemical entities five times faster than traditional methods to tackle massive unmet needs like endometriosis and post-surgical pain. We also dive deep into the business of biotech: the looming $250 billion "Patent Cliff" facing big pharma, the reality of the fundraising "rollercoaster," and why bringing innovation back to the US is critical for the industry's future. If you are interested in the intersection of AI and biology, the future of pain management, or the grit required to build a life sciences startup, you won't want to miss this conversation. ⭐ Sponsored by Podcast10x - Podcasting agency for VCs - https://podcast10x.com Key Topics Covered: - The Next GLP-1? Why the endocannabinoid system is the largest regulator in the human body. - AI in Biotech: How Nalu Bio uses "digital twins" and virtual patients to de-risk drug development. - The $250B Opportunity: Understanding the massive patent cliff approaching the pharma industry. - Women's Health: Solving endometriosis with non-hormonal, non-opioid therapeutics. - Founder Resilience: Caitlyn’s story of a lead investor walking away at the final document stage and how she bounced back. - Building Moats: How to protect IP and technology in a competitive market. Connect with Caitlyn & Nalu Bio: * Website: https://nalubio.com * LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caitlynkrebs * Email: caitlyn@nalubio.com VC10X website - https://VC10X.com Don't forget to LIKE, SUBSCRIBE, and turn on notifications for more deep dives into the future of technology and healthcare! #Biotech #AI #DrugDiscovery #Endometriosis #Startup #NaluBio #HealthTech #Entrepreneurship #GLP1 #Pharma

## Transcript

[0:00] I started looking into CBD and learned that the endocannabinoid
[0:03] system is actually the largest regulator in your body and it
[0:08] has so much therapeutic potential.
[0:10] With AI, do you think that even problems like cancer which have
[0:15] not been solved yet, there is a greater possibility now that we
[0:20] are going to find a solution soon?
[0:22] AI definitely allows you to explore the biology and create a
[0:27] number of virtual patients that you can test these therapies on,
[0:30] again in computers before actually going into patients.
[0:34] What mistakes do you see founders make in complex
[0:36] industries and what would you do differently?
[0:39] I believe the biggest mistake is.
[0:43] Hey everyone, this is Prashanth and I'll be host for the VC the
[0:46] Next podcast. And today we have Caitlin Cribbs
[0:48] with us. Caitlin is the cofounder and CEO
[0:51] of Nalu Bio. She is a scientist by training
[0:53] and an entrepreneur at heart who has spent the last 20 years
[0:56] building startups across therapeutics, diagnostics, and
[0:59] digital health. Today, she is leading the charge
[1:02] in using AI to unlock the endocannabinoid system.
[1:05] It is a biological network that regulates everything from pain
[1:09] to metabolism. We dive deep into how Nalu Bio
[1:12] is using digital twins and generative AI to design new
[1:16] molecules five times faster than the traditional methods.
[1:20] We also discussed the massive $250 billion patent Cliff facing
[1:25] the pharma industry over the next decade, why Women's Health
[1:29] issues like endometriosis have been overlooked for so long, and
[1:33] a gritty advice on surviving the biotech roller coaster of
[1:36] fundraising. So without wasting any time,
[1:38] let's dive straight in. This episode is sponsored by my
[1:41] own podcasting agency called Podcast 10X where I help venture
[1:45] capitalists, asset managers, allocators and family offices
[1:49] and starting their own podcast and building a strong brand.
[1:52] Podcast 10X is designed in a way to work well with the busy
[1:56] schedule of investors where we handle every aspect of podcast
[1:59] production so you can focus on investing.
[2:02] If you're looking to build a strong investor brand, starting
[2:05] a podcast should be right up your priority list.
[2:09] It's the only form of marketing where you can showcase your
[2:12] strong network, In other words, access to limited partners and
[2:16] founders and grow that network further.
[2:18] And contrary to what most people here, it's still very early to
[2:22] start a podcast. There are at least 10X more
[2:24] newsletters and thousand X more blogs than there are podcasts in
[2:28] this world. You can learn more about our
[2:31] podcasting services at Podcast ten-x.com.
[2:34] I'll make sure to add the link in the description below.
[2:37] Enjoy this episode. Hey Caitlin, so good to have you
[2:40] on the VC10X podcast. How are you doing?
[2:42] Thank you for having me Prashant.
[2:44] Excited to be here today. Yeah, absolute pleasure having
[2:47] you on. To start things off, can we
[2:49] start with a little bit about your background and what drew
[2:52] you into starting Nalo Bio? Sure.
[2:55] So I really sit at the intersection of science and
[2:59] entrepreneurship. I'm a scientist by training, but
[3:02] an entrepreneur at heart. I have spent the last 20 years
[3:07] in healthcare and biotech, building a number of different
[3:11] startups across therapeutics, diagnostics, digital health.
[3:15] I've actually been at kind of six start-ups focused on
[3:20] diabetes, Alzheimer's, but I have this lifelong passion for
[3:24] health and Wellness. And it was growing up in Hawaii
[3:28] and studying biology at Brown University that really shaped
[3:32] that passion for health and Wellness.
[3:35] And I kind of in 2019, I discovered the endocannabinoid
[3:41] system. There was a boom in California
[3:44] for CBD and I started looking into CBD and learned that the
[3:49] endocannabinoid system is actually the largest regulator
[3:53] in your body and it has so much therapeutic potential.
[3:58] And I got really excited about it.
[3:59] And that's really what drew me to start a company around the
[4:03] endocannabinoid system. It controls every major system
[4:07] in your body, cardiovascular pain, inflammation, metabolism.
[4:12] And I saw a list of 100 different health and Wellness
[4:17] areas that the endocannabinoid system could cover.
[4:20] And I just knew that I had to start a company that would
[4:24] generate new chemical entities, novel entities that target the
[4:28] endocannabinoid system. And I think this is going to be
[4:31] bigger than GLP ones. So there's so much tremendous
[4:35] opportunity. Yeah, absolutely.
[4:37] And how did you validate targeting ECS therapeutic
[4:40] therapeutics with mainstream medicine?
[4:42] And investors had overlooked this area for a long time.
[4:48] Yes. So if you start digging into the
[4:51] science, there are thousands of papers on small molecules and
[4:58] naturally occurring cannabinoids that target the ECS, around
[5:01] pain, around inflammation, around mood, sleep, metabolism.
[5:06] But it wasn't well organized. And so we've basically built a
[5:11] team of experts in the endocannabinoid system.
[5:14] So the science was there, we just had to organize it.
[5:19] The patient and consumer demand is there.
[5:22] Millions of people across the world, here in the US and
[5:25] globally are using naturally occurring cannabinoids for pain,
[5:29] for sleep, for anxiety. And specifically, we're going
[5:33] after an area of endometriosis as our first indication, and 50%
[5:38] of women use cannabis already for endometriosis.
[5:42] So the science was there, the demand was there, but the tech
[5:46] was missing. And that's what we have really
[5:48] brought through Nalubaya. We've developed an AI generative
[5:52] platform where we can develop new chemical entities, so
[5:55] inspired by nature, but novel chemical compounds to address
[6:00] pain, inflammation and endometriosis.
[6:03] So it's really about the science, about the patient
[6:07] demand, but really unlocking it through technology.
[6:10] Yeah, absolutely. And in the biotech space, the
[6:14] timelines are longer than other industries, right?
[6:16] So how do you approach fundraising with that?
[6:20] Yes. So in, you know, I've been in
[6:21] digital health and software, those are much shorter
[6:24] timelines. Biotech is long.
[6:26] It's about 10 years to get a drug to market.
[6:30] It's about taking your compound and proving 1st that it's safe
[6:34] and 2nd, that it's efficacious. So from a fundraising
[6:37] perspective, I'm always thinking about how do I de risk the
[6:42] company? How do we meet those investor
[6:44] milestones to show that we can de risk it?
[6:48] For example, biotech is high risk but really high reward for
[6:53] investors. And so being able to show that
[6:56] we have in vitro data, we have in vivo data, ultimately
[7:00] clinical data and we're going after very large markets.
[7:04] We're going after endometriosis, which is a Women's Health
[7:07] indication. It's a $250 billion market.
[7:11] The second market that we're going after is post surgical
[7:14] pain. It's $190 billion market.
[7:17] So show telling investors that we're developing new chemical
[7:20] entities that are safe and effective, going after these
[7:24] these large markets and kind of proving ourselves over time.
[7:28] So we're not just asking investors to trust us for the
[7:31] next 10 years. We continue, there's a true
[7:35] biotech playbook and we continue to show them really validation
[7:40] starting off on how we develop these molecules through AI, we
[7:44] can optimize them through AI. Our platform allows us to
[7:49] generate compounds 5 times faster.
[7:51] So we're able to actually speed up the development pipelines in
[7:55] comparison to other companies. So it's not just trust us, it's
[7:59] that we continue to meet our milestones and communicate that.
[8:03] So it's really about transparency, it's about
[8:05] discipline and it's really about aligning, finding those right
[8:09] investors who understand the opportunity, see the market and
[8:15] and understand kind of the fit. Absolutely.
[8:18] That's amazing. And how do you position alibi to
[8:21] investors given the two $50 billion patent Cliff
[8:25] opportunity? Yes.
[8:27] So there is a $250 billion patent Cliff coming in the next
[8:32] 10 years. So which means pharma companies
[8:35] are losing exclusivity of their drugs and they need to fill that
[8:39] pipeline and we're developing a novel class of molecules to
[8:45] address that pipeline. The other shift that's happening
[8:49] is that 10 of the top 20 companies by enterprise value
[8:55] are based in China. So the US is losing kind of
[8:59] innovation to China and so bringing innovation back to the
[9:03] US we believe is really important and we believe we can
[9:07] do that. And all the bio through these AI
[9:09] designed compounds, they're validated, they're trusted and
[9:14] we're developing this, you know, kind of next generation, first
[9:17] in class set of molecules for large, large markets,
[9:22] endometriosis and post surgical pain.
[9:24] So we really we position Nalu as an ECS technology company with
[9:30] both pipeline that we're developing of compounds, but
[9:33] also a platform to accelerate that.
[9:36] Absolutely. And how do you approach hiring?
[9:38] How do you balance expertise with the execution?
[9:41] Yeah. So in a start up, it's always
[9:43] hard, right? Do you hire very seasoned
[9:46] experts or do you hire kind of younger, you know, talented
[9:51] individuals who will work really hard?
[9:54] And I see it as a balance. You need both those young,
[9:58] smart, hungry team members to help you build, but you also
[10:03] need seasoned experts. You need those that have done
[10:08] this before, that know the mistakes of the past.
[10:11] So I I hire for a combination of both.
[10:13] We use a lot of advisors and consultants who are seasoned
[10:17] experts in their particular area, whether it's pharmacology
[10:21] or toxicology or regulatory to really de risk the business.
[10:27] And so it's really about being disciplined, that company of
[10:30] both the hungry smart team members in conjunction with the
[10:38] season experts. Yeah, absolutely.
[10:41] And how do you think about building competitive modes,
[10:44] especially with Breakthrough technologies?
[10:47] Yes. So in biotech creating a
[10:51] competitive mode is really important and the it's really
[10:54] kind of three elements for us. The 1st is IP, so intellectual
[10:57] property, we are able to patent our new chemical entities both
[11:03] method patents and composition of matter patent.
[11:05] So we've spent a lot of time, effort and money on our IP,
[11:10] which I'm very proud of. The second piece is the
[11:13] technology platform. So our and I get questions from
[11:16] people, you know what platform do you use for AI?
[11:19] We have actually generated our own platform, so really home
[11:23] grown using other off the shelf software's.
[11:25] But really the the technology is proprietary and we're very
[11:28] careful about keeping that kind of in house.
[11:32] And the third, so you know the 1st is IP, the second is the
[11:35] technology and the third piece of the Moat is really the know
[11:38] how in the data. So we've developed very valuable
[11:41] data and know how around cannabinoids we have.
[11:45] I'd say we have the best ECS and no cannabinoid system team in
[11:48] the world and we leverage their expertise in order to maintain
[11:52] our competitive advantage. Yeah, absolutely.
[11:56] And what key metrics do you track and how do you show
[11:59] progress despite long development cycles?
[12:02] Yeah. So biotech is definitely a long
[12:04] development cycle in comparison to other industries.
[12:08] We, you know, there's a playbook in biotech.
[12:10] And so there are milestones every way.
[12:14] First, when you're in cells, second, when you're in animals,
[12:17] you need to look at the safety, the efficacy of these compounds.
[12:21] So we're very careful to follow that playbook.
[12:24] But for us using AI, we've been able to track kind of three
[12:29] generations of compounds that we've made and those compounds
[12:33] improve in each generation. So we can actually track the
[12:35] metrics of the compound. We can look at the safety, we
[12:38] can look at the efficacy. And so we are very careful about
[12:43] making sure that we use our resources wisely and really hit
[12:47] our milestones. And we we communicate with our
[12:50] investors. As you know, it's really
[12:51] important to not only internally track those metrics, but
[12:55] communicate them externally. So we do that with our current
[12:58] investors, but also potential investors.
[13:01] So as you know, you need to build relationships with
[13:04] investors, you know, years ahead of time before they invest.
[13:08] And you know, I believe we do a really good job at that.
[13:12] And so we're really excited to bring these new chemical
[13:15] entities to market in in large markets.
[13:18] Pain and endometriosis. Yeah, absolutely.
[13:21] And AI in biotech is a very interesting topic.
[13:24] And what I've heard is that it's going to make development
[13:27] faster, testing faster and so many other things.
[13:30] And even one thing I've heard is that target some targeted or
[13:34] rare diseases, which earlier it was not worthwhile to invest
[13:38] that amount of money in a rare disease.
[13:41] Now it is possible with AI to solve those problems and provide
[13:45] drugs for those problems as well.
[13:48] You, being an insider in the industry, give me a view into
[13:51] what AI is going to make possible, which was not possible
[13:54] before. Yes, I agree.
[13:56] If you're not, if you're not using AI in drug discovery and
[14:00] development, you're behind already.
[14:03] You know, for us, for example, we have a, a program that's
[14:09] completely generated through AI. So we fed the model with
[14:13] compounds that we know bind to the receptors that we're
[14:16] interested in. But, you know, there was no
[14:19] human design of this compound and it's now showing great
[14:23] safety and efficacy. It's as good as opioids, it's as
[14:25] good as N says, without the side effects.
[14:28] But AI is really unlocking a new class of compounds.
[14:33] The compounds that we've developed, we have this dual
[14:36] target approach. We we target two different
[14:39] receptors and then we can bias them so we can precision
[14:43] engineer them using AI. What you weren't able to do
[14:46] before. And our platform allows us to do
[14:50] it five times faster. So to your point about, you
[14:54] know, make, you know, faster cycles, it's absolutely it.
[14:58] Absolutely allows for faster cycles and development.
[15:01] We are going after large markets.
[15:03] I think you're absolutely right that orphan and you know, orphan
[15:07] diseases could be even, you know, well suited for AI because
[15:13] you know, it'll take less money. Therefore investors and pharma
[15:17] would would be willing to go after some smaller markets, but
[15:20] we're going after some large ones.
[15:22] High risk, high reward. Absolutely.
[15:26] Playing the playing the VC game, which VCs like, right?
[15:29] And also with AI, do you think that even problems like cancer
[15:35] which have not been solved yet, there, there is a greater
[15:39] possibility now that we're going to find a solution soon?
[15:43] Yes. In fact, at Nalo Bio, not only
[15:46] are we using AI to develop these new chemical entities, but we've
[15:50] built these mechanistic models of biology, and that allows us
[15:55] to really understand the biology and what's driving it.
[15:59] And so we believe for cancer, for example, that if you can
[16:04] mechanistically model the biology, think about creating
[16:08] digital twins, right? Like virtual patients, either
[16:11] cancer patients or for us, endometriosis patients, which
[16:15] there is no cure, there is no solution that's non hormonal.
[16:20] AI definitely allows you to explore the biology and create a
[16:25] number of virtual patients that you can test these therapies on,
[16:28] again in computers before actually going into patients.
[16:31] So I think it does unlock a number of indications and really
[16:36] provide insights that we couldn't keep in a mental model
[16:39] in our head previously. Absolutely.
[16:42] That's quite interesting. And are you also our biotech
[16:45] firms using the same AI models that all of us are using say
[16:50] Chat, GVT, Gemini and so on? Or are there like different
[16:53] models have a limbs for you? So they're actually quite
[16:57] different. So we use large language models
[17:00] for, you know, kind of I'll say operations like working in
[17:03] general, but we've actually developed a small language
[17:07] model. So it's very focused on the
[17:09] endocannabinoid system trained by thousands of compounds that
[17:14] we know bind to the receptors of interest.
[17:17] We then in silico we can look at how these molecules dock to
[17:21] specific receptors. We are part of Nvidia's
[17:25] inception program. So we do use off the shelf
[17:29] software in conjunction to our proprietary software, but
[17:32] they're very tailored specific models.
[17:34] Absolutely, quite interesting. And how has your view of on risk
[17:39] and failure changed as a serial launch of new?
[17:42] So as an entrepreneur, you know, I think it's just in my DNA.
[17:45] I'm inherently, you know, I'm a risk taker.
[17:48] You know, all the companies that I've been at has been at, you
[17:51] know, novel science and technology that we've brought to
[17:55] market and commercialized. You know, I would say for me,
[17:59] risk taking has really changed over time.
[18:03] You know, at first I thought it was inherent, particularly in
[18:06] biotech and science, but you can do a lot.
[18:09] You know, I've learned over my 25 years, you can do a lot to de
[18:13] risk it. So it's really about knowing
[18:15] where the risks are in your development program in your
[18:19] company and doing either the experiments or doing the work to
[18:23] de risk those. So now I think it's much more
[18:27] about discipline milestones to de risk the company and you
[18:32] know, I but I still embrace, you know, bold ideas.
[18:35] I get excited by new technologies.
[18:37] AI is completely changing the way we develop drugs.
[18:41] And so, you know, I'm I'm excited about this next
[18:44] generation of AI generated molecules.
[18:46] And and that's what we're doing at at Nalu Bio.
[18:50] Yeah, absolutely. Tell us about your most
[18:53] challenging moments as a founder and how you overcame them.
[18:57] I mean, there are so many challenging moments as an
[18:59] entrepreneur. It's like a roller coaster.
[19:01] You know, they're the highs and the lows.
[19:04] You know, I've had some low lows.
[19:06] One of them was, I mean, really around fundraising.
[19:10] One of them was an investor, took me to Final Docs, you know,
[19:14] kind of took me to the altar, right?
[19:16] And then walked away and I had to start all over again for my
[19:20] last round. So it's really for me about
[19:23] persistence, about grit. You know, it's just, it's, it's
[19:28] not, you know, it's really about believing in the mission and the
[19:31] vision of the company. You know, I, I believe that the
[19:34] endocannabinoid system in therapeutics could be as big as
[19:37] the GLP 1 market. You know, GLP started in weight
[19:40] loss. Now we know it's good for blood
[19:42] pressure, for cholesterol, for cognition, for cardiovascular.
[19:46] The endocannabinoid system is the same way.
[19:48] It's good for pain, it's good for inflammation, for
[19:51] endometriosis, for post surgical pain.
[19:53] So, you know, it's about having a mission and just having a lot
[19:57] of assistance and grit. Absolutely.
[20:00] And all through these hardships and these highs and lows, how do
[20:04] you maintain your mental health, yours and your teams, in these
[20:07] high pressure situations? Yeah, biotech is, you know, high
[20:12] pressure and it's a marathon, right?
[20:14] It's not a Sprint. It's a, you know, 10 year
[20:16] timeline. I think it's really about
[20:19] routines and grounding yourself mentally and physically.
[20:25] So, you know, having taking time, you know, I do a lot of
[20:29] exercise. I love long walks on the beach.
[20:32] I do hot yoga. I do CrossFit, I run.
[20:36] You know, that actually helps me more mentally.
[20:38] It also helps me physically, but it helps me mentally and I
[20:41] encourage my team to do the same, to take breaks.
[20:46] It's OK to take a mental health day.
[20:47] I have team members that will raise their hand and say, you
[20:51] know, I need some time to just decompress and de stress.
[20:55] And I encourage that because on the other side, you know, I'm
[20:57] more, I'm more productive after those breaks, they're more
[21:02] productive. So I think it's really about
[21:04] finding time to recharge in this very high stressful environment.
[21:10] But also it's about the mission and the vision, right?
[21:13] So it's getting the team to really understand.
[21:16] We are creating new first in class medicines that, you know,
[21:21] for an endometriosis, there's no cure.
[21:23] So if we could develop a non hormonal therapy that doesn't
[21:27] have side effects, that's game changing for these women.
[21:30] So it's about really the mission at the end of the day,
[21:33] meaningful work. Yeah, absolutely.
[21:36] And what mistakes do you see founders make in complex
[21:39] industries, and what would you do differently?
[21:43] So, you know, in biotech, which is a complex industry, I believe
[21:49] the biggest mistake is entrepreneurs.
[21:52] They underestimate the regulatory risk.
[21:55] There's a lot of risk when you're going to in the US to the
[21:59] FDA presenting your data, getting buy in.
[22:03] And so I've lived that risk. I lived it at a diabetes company
[22:08] where we had great data, we had a great test, but we didn't
[22:12] communicate to the regulatory body.
[22:14] So this was CMS Center for Medicaid.
[22:19] We didn't communicate to them the value of the test and they
[22:22] decided not to cover it. And when in healthcare, when
[22:25] you're not reimbursed it, it basically is the death of the
[22:28] product. And so that that killed the
[22:31] company. So I've learned, I've lived it
[22:33] myself and I'm very aware now of the risk in this space.
[22:38] You know, there's some stigma attached to cannabinoids, even
[22:41] though we are new chemical entities that we're developing.
[22:45] You have to be aware of the regulatory environment.
[22:47] So we we use experts who have been through this before,
[22:52] including myself, to really de risk it and ensure that we're
[22:56] aware of the regulatory environment, how it changes and
[22:59] how to really mitigate that risk through the process.
[23:03] One other kind of risk or pitfall is it's this balance
[23:08] between science and getting to market.
[23:11] So as scientists, you know, they want the best product, the best
[23:14] performance, you know, you know, but as a, as a commercial
[23:17] entrepreneur, you know, I'm my eyes are on the prize of getting
[23:21] FDA approval. So for me, it's really that
[23:24] balance between having really good science, but also pushing
[23:28] the team and the product through.
[23:31] And I think that's also another pitfall of more scientific based
[23:35] entrepreneurs as they focus a lot of their time on perfecting
[23:39] the science versus really showing that the compounds work
[23:45] and getting it to market. Yeah, absolutely.
[23:48] And with that, we come to the last question, which is what's
[23:52] been your biggest learning as a founder, as a serial
[23:55] entrepreneur that you'd like to pass on to other founders?
[24:00] Yeah. You know, being at a number of
[24:01] different companies across different types of, you know,
[24:06] therapeutics, diagnostics, digital health, I think, you
[24:10] know, the, the biggest learning for me is you could have the
[24:14] best technology, but it's all about the team and the culture.
[24:18] At the end of the day, the team and culture wins because people
[24:23] will work through challenges. They will work through, you
[24:26] know, the lows. But if you don't have the right
[24:29] culture and right team to support it, you know, it's
[24:32] nearly impossible. So, you know, I believe it's
[24:34] creating this mix, right of kind of young and seasoned and having
[24:39] a vision and mission that really drives people.
[24:42] So having, you know, the right people, the right culture, the
[24:45] right mission to really overcome, you know, challenges
[24:50] when they're tough. Absolutely.
[24:51] That's profound. And with that we come to the
[24:54] close. Do let our listeners know where
[24:56] they can learn more about Nalu Bio and for a journey.
[25:00] Yes. So Nalu Bio.
[25:02] Nalu is actually a Hawaiian word.
[25:04] I'm from Hawaii. So it's means wave or go with
[25:08] the flow. And we're at nalubio.com and I'm
[25:12] Caitlin at Nalu Bio if folks want to reach out via e-mail.
[25:16] Awesome man. I'll also make sure to put your
[25:18] LinkedIn in there in the show notes, so all these links will
[25:21] be in the show notes. Our listeners can get there
[25:23] easily. Thanks so much for doing this,
[25:24] Caitlin. Wonderful.
[25:26] Thank you, Prashant.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.