# FamilyOffice10x - How this single family office (SFO) invests in the top GPs? - Slava Darkhaev, VP, Matrix Capital

An episode of [VC10X - Investing, Venture Capital, Asset Management, Family Office, Wealth Management](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1632806986), 10 Mar 2026, 28 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/a453ddd4/podcast/play/116691639/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-2-10%2F419699610-44100-2-ac82f07ffa27b.mp3

"What does it actually take to get a family office to back you? In this episode, Prashant sits down with Slava Darkhaev, a family office investor based in Cyprus who deploys into emerging VC managers and direct deals across the US market. Slava breaks down how he evaluates first-time fund managers, what a real competitive edge looks like versus a rehearsed pitch, and why network quality matters far more than network size. They also get into portfolio construction, co-investment strategy, the emerging markets opportunity, and the biggest mistakes fund managers make when fundraising. ⭐ Sponsored by Podcast10x - Podcasting agency for VCs - https://podcast10x.com Topics covered: — What "right to exist" really means for a fund manager — How to evaluate GPs before they have a track record — Why the VC power law makes network everything — LP book vs. direct co-investments — how to run both — Diversification as upside management, not downside protection — India, Southeast Asia & Latin America — the emerging market thesis — The #1 fundraising mistake GPs make repeatedly" If you're a GP raising your first or second fund — or an LP trying to build a smarter allocation strategy — this one is for you. TIMESTAMPS (00:00) - Episode Highlights (00:51) - Introduction to Slava Darkhaev & the Episode (02:19) - The 'Right to Exist' for VCs vs. Founders (05:02) - How to Identify and Back Top-Tier GPs (07:11) - Benchmarking Emerging Managers: The Insider Approach (08:42) - The #1 Trait Separating Top GPs from the Rest (11:05) - Strategy for Direct Investments vs. LP Investments (12:43) - Securing Co-Investment and Pro-Rata Rights (13:51) - A Different Take on Diversification in Venture Capital (16:07) - Investing Thesis on Emerging Trends and Macro Cycles (17:27) - Due Diligence for a Manager's Subsequent Fund (19:22) - Family Office Asset Allocation to Venture Capital (20:02) - Investing in 'Unproven' First-Time Managers (21:29) - Approach to Investing in Global Emerging Markets (24:58) - Key Advice for Fund Managers: The Power of Storytelling (25:46) - Common Mistakes Fund Managers Make When Fundraising (26:46) - Rapid Fire Round (27:51) - Conclusion & How to Connect with Slava LINKS Slava Darkhaev - https://www.linkedin.com/in/slava-darkhaev/ Prashant Choubey - https://www.linkedin.com/in/choubeysahab Subscribe to VC10X newsletter - https://vc10x.beehiiv.com Subscribe on YouTube - https://youtube.com/@VC10X Subscribe on Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vc10x-investing-venture-capital-asset-management-private/id1632806986 Subscribe on Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7F7KEhXNhTx1bKTBFgzv3k?si=WgQ4ozMiQJ-6nowj6wBgqQ VC10X website - https://vc10x.com For sponsorship queries, reach out to prashantchoubey3@gmail.com Subscribe for more conversations at the intersection of family office investing, private markets, and emerging trends in wealth management.

## Transcript

[0:00] The whole VC industry in average returns 0% IRR.
[0:05] You know, if you take the whole venture capital industry, it's
[0:08] basically 0 IRRR net topics. What would be your, let's say
[0:13] word of advice for fund manager? My advice would be to craft your
[0:18] story. Storytelling is very important
[0:21] thing and any. Big mistakes that you see very
[0:25] often that fund managers make. I think when you're too much
[0:30] pushy, when you constantly push and follow up about feedback, I
[0:35] think it's it's a big red flag. And talking about
[0:38] diversification, how do you think about that?
[0:41] For me in venture capital diversification, it's not about
[0:46] like managing downside, it's more about managing upside.
[0:52] Hey everyone, this is Prashanth. And I'll be host of the VC the
[0:54] Next podcast. And today we have Slava Darke
[0:57] with us. In this episode, we talk about
[1:00] how does a family office investor sitting outside the VC
[1:03] circle figure out who is actually worth backing?
[1:06] Today's guest has a very clear answer.
[1:09] Slava manages VC and fund investment for a family office
[1:12] out of Cyprus, and he's deployed into some of the most
[1:16] competitive emerging managers in the US market.
[1:19] We talk about what a real right to exist looks like for GPS, how
[1:23] he evaluates fund managers before they have a track record,
[1:27] and what fund managers get catastrophically wrong when they
[1:31] pitch, and so much more. So without wasting any time,
[1:33] let's dive straight in. This episode is brought to.
[1:36] You by Podcast Enix, my podcasting agency for VCs.
[1:40] We help VCs start and run branded podcast that can serve
[1:44] as their entire content engine. Turn the conversations you're
[1:48] already having into a machine. 1 Recording becomes your presence
[1:52] on LinkedIn, Spotify, YouTube, and e-mail.
[1:56] Don't just build. Another VC firm build a firm
[1:58] that can stand out to LP's and one that founders can brag about
[2:02] having you on their cap table. Check out our services at
[2:06] Podcast ten-x.com. I'll put the link in the
[2:08] description below. Now enjoy the episode.
[2:12] Here's Lava Sobotagi on the VC10X podcast.
[2:14] How are you doing? Hey, nice to see you and great
[2:18] to be here. Yeah, it's.
[2:20] It's a pleasure having you on start things off.
[2:22] Something that you often talk about when you're you're making
[2:25] these LP deployments into fund managers is what's the team's
[2:30] right to exist, right? And that must come from a lived
[2:33] experiences, something that you believe, right?
[2:36] So when you are evaluating, let's say a first time fund
[2:39] manager versus a Series A founder, which is also something
[2:43] you do, you know, direct investments, how does that right
[2:47] to exist look different in both of these cases?
[2:51] And what is the lived experience equivalent for AVC?
[2:54] Yeah. Thanks for the question.
[2:56] It kind of relates to my personal story because I was
[3:00] entrepreneur 10 years ago, so I lost a coffee shop in Siberia.
[3:05] I am from Siberia and now I live in Cyprus and work in family
[3:10] office doing investments in BC and funds indirectly.
[3:15] But back then, 10 years ago, I launched a coffee shop.
[3:19] I quit my job from BIG4 company. The business had some mediocre
[3:24] success, but my learning was I didn't really like the coffee,
[3:33] you know, So, and this is what I look for in founders and G PS I
[3:41] see a lot of similarities. So I asked question, why do you
[3:45] do that? Why do you build this business?
[3:48] And, and they have to tell their story.
[3:52] What drives them? Do they like what they do?
[3:55] This is very important. And the second question I ask
[4:01] why you will win? What makes you very competitive?
[4:07] What makes your competitive advantages?
[4:09] You know, it's very important. And every time is different, you
[4:13] know, and this competitive advantages, this should also be
[4:17] very, very natural, very organic.
[4:20] So it's not like made-up for the pitch, you know something also
[4:26] from the elite experience or probably for fund managers, they
[4:30] probably like worked at some great Q1 fund in the US or they
[4:35] already built some very successful company cast out and
[4:39] they are in some circles. So they get the best deal flow,
[4:45] you know, or for seriously founders like similar thing, you
[4:51] know, and probably they already worked in similar business and
[4:55] they see something what others don't see or they have some some
[5:00] very, very unique advantage. Absolutely.
[5:03] But a lot of the times, you know, almost all of the pictures
[5:07] that you would be getting, they would claim to have one or the
[5:11] other of the things that you mentioned, right?
[5:13] How do you within that group figure out which is the one that
[5:18] I really want to back? You know, what is their specific
[5:21] right to exist? You know, it's not just, OK, I
[5:24] have a network, I can get that deal through.
[5:26] You know everyone is saying that who is a fund manager, but
[5:30] what's different about them when you know what's unique that
[5:33] makes you say that, OK, this is the one that I want to deploy
[5:37] into. Yeah, yeah, great question.
[5:40] You know, you kind of get this feeling why it's top, very, very
[5:48] top top GP or founder. When we talk about GPS, you
[5:52] know, I asked the question, did they really see the greatness?
[5:59] So it's mainly it's it's about track record.
[6:03] Do they already have some unicorns very successful stories
[6:08] in their track record? If they have, they are in very,
[6:13] very selective network, you know, So yeah, every, every
[6:18] time, every time. You kind of feel it if you do.
[6:22] They really did. They really see the greatness.
[6:25] I think it's mostly about it, you know, VC business.
[6:30] It's about sourcing and selecting, you know, for
[6:34] sourcing, you should be in the very best circles.
[6:37] What is their network? Which founders do they know?
[6:41] And about selecting? It's about again, about the
[6:45] track record. Did they really see the
[6:46] greatness? They can recognize similar
[6:49] patterns. Absolutely.
[6:50] So it's not just access that matters, it's access to high
[6:54] quality founders and a high quality network that matters,
[6:58] right, quite interesting. So and you mentioned that to
[7:01] find the 99.5 fifth percentile, you need to see hundreds of
[7:07] teams to build an internal benchmark for yourself, right?
[7:10] So as an LP, how do you practically do this for emerging
[7:14] managers? Are you tracking their deal
[7:17] flow, their thesis evolution, or their actual markup track record
[7:21] before they even launch? Yeah, yeah.
[7:25] So I would add to this, to this thesis that it's not only about
[7:30] the number, it's not only about the quantity of the teams you
[7:34] speak to, it's also about the quality.
[7:39] So make sure that you talk to the best GPS, to the best in the
[7:44] best network. And my personal approach, I
[7:47] travel a lot to Bay, Bay Area and New York.
[7:51] You know, America is like birthplace of unicorns and the
[7:56] BC industry. And when you personally, you
[8:00] know, immerse yourself in this ecosystem and you get this
[8:04] introductions and you gradually become insider.
[8:10] This is my my approach. So you have to actually talk to
[8:13] people so remotely. It doesn't work.
[8:16] You have to travel there, have to talk and to get insights from
[8:21] others and to get very warm introductions and referrals.
[8:26] And basically you start feeling that you start recognising
[8:31] where, where it's top, top zippy and where it's mediocre.
[8:36] Yeah. So it's about experience and and
[8:40] talk, talking to like, like people.
[8:42] Absolutely, completely agree. And many emerging managers,
[8:46] especially in the current market, they're struggling to
[8:49] even articulate their edge right.
[8:52] When you are benchmarking AGP against the top 0.5% cohort,
[8:57] what is the number one trait that immediately separates this
[9:00] signal from the noise is? Is it the network, their
[9:03] operational help that they're providing to their portfolio
[9:06] companies, or their sourcing alpha?
[9:11] You know, VC business is, is very complicated.
[9:15] You know, the whole VC industry in average returns 0% IRR.
[9:24] You know if you take the whole venture capital industry, it's
[9:27] basically zero IRR net to a piece.
[9:32] But there's a power law, you know, so there is very small
[9:38] number of investors who get most of the returns in VC and they
[9:44] build their modes, they build their competitive advantages for
[9:49] many years. There are top 20 VC in the US,
[9:54] They capture most of the returns.
[9:56] They have brand, they have network effect.
[10:02] You know, they have many, many different competitive
[10:04] advantages. And to break into this world,
[10:08] it's very hard, very hard and it takes time.
[10:13] So my my understanding of the of the VC game now is that you
[10:23] should, if you are a major manager somehow you should be
[10:28] close to this circle of top 20 VC.
[10:32] This is my understanding. So you should either like front
[10:37] run their investments. If they invested CSA and you
[10:41] invested precedence it, you should somehow front run the
[10:44] investments, you know, it should be in the right circles and you
[10:49] should see some opportunities even before them.
[10:53] You know, this is my understanding.
[10:55] So I think network, that's why I think network is the most
[11:02] important thing nowadays in, in, in VC.
[11:06] Yeah, absolutely. And talking about portfolio
[11:10] construction on that front, how do you look at direct
[11:14] investments versus your LP book differently?
[11:17] You know, do you use your fund investments purely as a
[11:21] discovery engine for direct Co investment opportunities or do
[11:24] you view them as completely separate retreat on drivers?
[11:28] Yeah, it's both. I will tell you, first of all,
[11:36] we look for best fund returners, you know, the, the funds which
[11:42] will deliver return. You know, financial success is
[11:44] the very is, is the most important thing.
[11:48] But then it's my job. It's my job of building trusted
[11:54] relationship with this GPS which will help me to invest directly
[12:00] in their best portfolio companies.
[12:02] So it's my job, not their job to, to get me into the, the,
[12:06] the, the companies. And I should demonstrate my
[12:11] understanding, my understanding of the, of the, of the market,
[12:14] my understanding of the business models, you know, my value at
[12:18] what can I add to the underlying founders of the portfolio
[12:22] companies. So this is how I see it.
[12:25] Of course, of course, GPS and management as they help me with
[12:30] some insights. You know, that's why I am best
[12:33] in the measure managers. I get insights from them, Yeah,
[12:38] but but then it's basically my job to invest directly, yeah.
[12:43] Absolutely makes sense. And what I've also seen some
[12:47] let's say fund of funds do is that they invest in a fund and
[12:50] it's also a condition they put in the contract that okay, we
[12:54] will also be a part of your Co investment opportunity.
[12:57] If you're doing a follow on round, then we have like A tag
[13:01] along right sort of a thing. So do you also do that kind of a
[13:05] thing where you have that sort of written in the contract that
[13:09] you can come along the future investments in your in their
[13:12] portfolio companies? Yes, of course.
[13:15] Of course, we'll do it with some of the managers.
[13:18] We'll have arrangement that we will invest at later stages and
[13:25] fulfill their Parata or super Parata, right?
[13:30] Yeah, because this is so the profile of of managers we look
[13:33] for their fund size is kind of small, you know up to like $50
[13:39] million and they usually don't have reserve for follow on at
[13:45] CSA and CSB. And this is where we step in,
[13:49] and this is where we can help. Yeah, absolutely makes sense.
[13:52] And talking about diversification, how do you
[13:55] think about that? Do you diversify by stage or
[13:58] region or sector? So give us an insight into.
[14:02] That diversification is, is very important.
[14:06] What do you mean by diversification?
[14:08] You know, for me in venture capital diversification, it's
[14:13] not about like managing downside, it's more about
[14:17] managing upside. So you have to like diversify
[14:25] within, within some trends. And so you diversify to increase
[14:30] your chances to catch unicorns to, to, to catch funded turners.
[14:35] You know, so it's not just, you know, diversification for
[14:40] diversification. No, you specifically try to
[14:45] increase your chances to catch outliers.
[14:49] This is this is the, the, this is how I understand
[14:52] diversification. And historically most of the
[14:57] unicorns, they emerge in the US Of course, Europe also has has
[15:03] some successes, but 80% of My Portfolio is, is United, United
[15:09] States. Also historically most of the
[15:14] unicorns were in software layer asset light businesses, easy to
[15:20] scale. And this is this is like a very
[15:24] significant part of of of of My Portfolio.
[15:27] But nowadays what I see in venture capital, there are some
[15:31] new waves emerge because of the new technologies, AI, etcetera.
[15:38] And nowadays I think that we should add some other, other
[15:43] verticals like deep tech, you know, quantum computing, nuclear
[15:50] robotics. So all these, all these
[15:53] technologies, they kinda converge because of, because of
[15:57] AI. So I think VC should, should,
[16:02] should also have exposure to this verticals as well.
[16:05] And this is what we do as well. Absolutely, quite interesting.
[16:09] And within within the family office and within the venture
[16:12] capital department which you handle.
[16:15] Do you have a specific thesis around, you know, emerging
[16:18] prints or let's say emerging sectors, let's say AI being one
[16:22] right now? And within that, do you also
[16:24] think about that? We also don't want to over
[16:27] allocate to something that's really hard right now because
[16:30] the valuations are up, right up there.
[16:34] And if a correction comes in or there's several market downturn
[16:38] or things like that, then the entire portfolio should not be
[16:42] impacted in your you're also deployed into other categories,
[16:45] other areas as well. So the way how we see VC
[16:49] investing definitely depends on the on this micro cycles,
[16:53] business cycles no doubt. But we believe that early stage
[17:00] investing is less correlated to the macro environment.
[17:05] This is how I believe that's why we build this portfolio of major
[17:09] managers at precedence seat, you know, and we believe they're
[17:13] less impacted by the macro, macro threats and that will
[17:19] convert at Series A, which is also, you know, less, less
[17:23] impacted by macro, macro. This is our our approach.
[17:28] Absolutely, absolutely. And when a manager comes back to
[17:32] you for a subsequent fund that they're raising, let's say you
[17:36] back their previous fund, which is still, you know, still you
[17:40] don't know how it's going to perform that the metrics are
[17:43] still coming in, but they're now raising another fund.
[17:47] What changes in your due diligence at that point of time?
[17:51] And what what are the key things you look for at that stage?
[17:55] Do you need to see them take the original pieces or do you prefer
[17:58] managers who sort of pivoted based on what was required at
[18:03] the time? So yeah, tell us about.
[18:06] That first of all, we look at the underlying portfolio, the
[18:10] performance of the of their portfolio companies.
[18:15] Maybe, you know, it's not yet reflected in the books, not yet
[18:20] reflected in, in markups, but we diligence carefully the
[18:26] underlying performance, the growth, the burn rate, you know,
[18:31] this is very important. And we look at the profiles of
[18:36] the founders of the portfolio companies.
[18:38] Is it like where top, top design founders or not?
[18:43] And do you kind of can judge it based on their profile and, and
[18:48] you can talk to some of the founders.
[18:51] This is, this is the, the approach.
[18:54] But of course it's great. It's great to have TVPI, then
[18:58] some returns, of course it's great.
[19:00] But you know, sometimes it's doesn't tell you the whole
[19:03] picture, the whole story. And we're not against pivoting.
[19:09] You know, when, when a manager sees some new opportunity, some
[19:16] new inefficiency, we're not against that.
[19:19] We're completely supportive if it makes sense.
[19:22] Absolutely. Quite interesting.
[19:24] And if you talk about the family office where you work, how do
[19:29] they decide that what percentage allocation of the total assets
[19:34] in the management need to go to venture capital and how big or
[19:39] small of a percentage that is? Yeah.
[19:43] So the the family office obviously have other, other,
[19:48] other other assets like in public markets a lot.
[19:51] Our exposure to venture capital is about 10 to 15% of the whole
[19:57] whole AUM of the family office. Yeah.
[19:59] And this is we stick to this exposure.
[20:02] Got it. Quite interesting.
[20:04] And how do you look at, you know, backing newer managers who
[20:08] are still unproven, let's say, versus investing into managers
[20:14] who have already proved their mettle or are already, let's say
[20:19] no one in the market already their main name for themselves
[20:22] have some good wins in the portfolio.
[20:24] So which of the two are you one of the believer kind that, OK,
[20:27] you're going to believe in a new manager, give them the funds and
[20:32] see how that performs. If that works, you're going to
[20:34] support them for that. If not, you're going to drop
[20:36] that. Or are you looking for a proven
[20:39] track record before you invest? We have first time GPS in our
[20:45] portfolio. We have but what makes them
[20:50] special, they are emerging, they are first time managers, but
[20:56] they already experienced, they already have track record.
[20:59] It's either engine portfolio or or they worked at tier one fund
[21:06] and have very successful track record.
[21:10] So it's not. So it's less less about our
[21:14] belief that they they can do it. They already proved they can do
[21:19] that. They can do it, it's just
[21:21] technically it's fun one. Absolutely.
[21:23] And and you mentioned how US is the biggest producer, let's say
[21:27] of unicorns in the world. But right now we're also seeing
[21:31] emerging markets come up and they're also performing wells at
[21:35] some points. We have seen that in some
[21:38] vintages, some other geographies, let's say emerging
[21:42] ones, have performed better than even the US market because of
[21:45] different market conditions and different factors because of
[21:48] different stage of maturity. So how do you look at global
[21:52] markets and what are the markets other than US that you are
[21:57] closely tracking? Good question.
[22:01] Obviously India, Southeast Asia emerged, they have very
[22:06] successful stories. Latin America as well.
[22:13] But you know, we kind of very careful and if we will break
[22:23] into this markets to also via partnerships with, with with
[22:28] very local funds. And I believe emerging markets
[22:35] they have big, big potential and investing comparing to yes, it's
[22:41] completely different, completely different.
[22:43] I think in emerging markets it's less about enterprise software
[22:48] investing, it's more about consumer tech, you know,
[22:52] consumer focused companies because in major markets they
[22:56] just don't have infrastructure. And for example, in in India,
[23:03] businesses just missed brick and mortar stage and they went
[23:10] directly to mobile first, you know economy.
[23:17] So it's different. I don't have strong experience
[23:20] in consumer investing. So if we do it in emerging
[23:24] markets, it definitely should be consumer focused and with right
[23:28] partners. Absolutely.
[23:29] Yeah. I think that's a very
[23:30] interesting insight there and I agree with you on that.
[23:33] With the emerging markets, what we're seeing the companies
[23:36] emerge out and the ones who are even getting good exits,
[23:40] majority of them at this stage especially are consumer
[23:43] companies. When compared to the US that
[23:46] story might be different. And that, that is because I
[23:49] think of the maturity of the market in markets like India.
[23:53] I think the, the basics, the providers are, are the, let's
[23:58] say the first layer of companies are innovative companies that
[24:03] are mobile first, Internet first that is being built.
[24:06] And and once that's there, then maybe in maybe another, let's
[24:10] say 10/15/20 years we will start to see more on the enterprise
[24:14] side as well. So yeah, that's that's
[24:17] completely very interesting inside.
[24:19] There and I think it's it's also important the the profile of the
[24:23] founders could build these companies and energy managers.
[24:27] The best stories, best successful stories I see is when
[24:32] is when a founder already got some experience in global
[24:38] markets, either in the US or other developed country and then
[24:43] this founder returned back to his home country and this
[24:47] founder already has experience, you know, and they and this
[24:51] founder can build something in the home country.
[24:54] I think this is the part and I can I see quite often.
[24:58] Absolutely. And in this market currently,
[25:02] what would be your, let's say, word of advice for fund
[25:06] managers? What, what are the key mistakes
[25:08] that you see making them all the time because you're talking to a
[25:12] lot of them and what would be your advice for them?
[25:16] My advice would be to craft your story.
[25:19] Storytelling is very important thing.
[25:23] Often fund managers and or like founders, they already have some
[25:31] very strong competitive advantages, but sometimes they
[25:34] struggle to articulate rightly, you know, and people always
[25:40] remember great stories, you know, and so my my condition is
[25:45] to craft it as much as. Possible absolutely, completely.
[25:48] And any big mistakes that you see very often that fund
[25:53] managers make while fundraising? Big mistakes.
[25:58] I think when you're too much pushy, when you constantly push
[26:03] and follow up about feedback, I think it's it's a big red flag
[26:08] and it tells about some kind of desperation.
[26:11] Absolutely. What's what's the right cadence
[26:14] of a following up or maybe dropping the ball at some point
[26:17] if you're not getting a response?
[26:19] How many follow-ups is good do you think?
[26:23] Well, I think you know it depends on the follow up if you
[26:30] have something to tell if you have some.
[26:33] Very very great update. Definitely we should follow up,
[26:38] but just following up without any, any update, you know, it's,
[26:43] it's, it's not the best approach I'd say.
[26:47] Absolutely, absolutely makes sense.
[26:49] With that, we come to the rapid fire round, wherein I'll ask you
[26:52] 4 quick questions about the investments you're making at
[26:56] both the fund level as well as directs as well, right?
[26:59] And you have to give four quick answers.
[27:01] OK. So the first one is what are the
[27:04] themes and regions that you invest in?
[27:08] It's US enterprise software and also we'll add some dip tech dip
[27:15] tech verticals like robotics, nuclear and and quantum
[27:18] computing. Great.
[27:21] What is the typical size of the LP commitment you make?
[27:26] Yeah. So we, we, we we're looking for
[27:28] a major managers with, with up to 50, maybe $100 million fund,
[27:32] fund a fund size and our ticket size up to 1,000,000.
[27:36] But in average historical it was 500 K per fund.
[27:40] Got it. Where can GPS get in touch in
[27:44] case there's a direct way? Yeah, just LinkedIn link
[27:47] outreach and LinkedIn, I respond.
[27:50] I respond very often. Awesome.
[27:52] I think the last one also dance would be LinkedIn, which is
[27:55] where where you can our listeners follow you.
[27:57] So I'll, I'll put your LinkedIn in the description below so our
[28:01] listeners can get there easily. Thanks so much for doing this
[28:04] Slava and I wish you happy investing.
[28:08] Thank you. It was a pleasure to spending
[28:10] this year if with you and with you guys.
[28:14] Likewise, and this will be going out somewhat later the next
[28:18] year, but yeah, great, great, great talking with you today.
[28:21] Sure.

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