# VC10X - The Consumer AI Opportunity Nobody Is Chasing ft. Ankur Sethi, Founder, Winner Capital

An episode of [VC10X - Investing, Venture Capital, Asset Management, Family Office, Wealth Management](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1632806986), 23 Feb 2026, 41 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/a453ddd4/podcast/play/115823861/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-1-21%2F418529893-44100-2-f570a9d3f664b.mp3

Ankur Sethi spent years at two of India's most iconic startups — Swiggy and Paytm — before leaving his operating role to found Winner Capital, a consumer-first, AI-native syndicate investing out of North America. ⭐ Sponsored by Podcast10x - Podcasting agency for VCs - https://podcast10x.com In this episode, we get into: → Why consumer AI is massively underfunded while enterprise SaaS gets all the attention → What "durable retention" actually looks like — and the ambassador signal every founder should watch for → The 0→1, 1→10, 10→100 framework and how your mindset must shift at each stage → Why unit economics are non-negotiable even at pre-seed → The one operating principle from Swiggy & Paytm that most founders underestimate until it's too late → Why launching a fund during a market correction is actually an advantage → His honest take on India as a market — and when Winner Capital plans to enter If you're a founder building in consumer tech or AI, or an operator thinking about making the leap into venture, this one is for you. 🔔 Subscribe for weekly conversations with the investors shaping the next generation of startups. 📩 Reach Ankur at ankur@winner.capital or find him on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/1ankursethi/ Timestamps: (00:00) - Two narratives of AI: Just getting started vs. over-hyped. (00:49) - Introduction to Ankur Sethi and Winner Capital. (02:21) - The market gap that led to starting a consumer-focused AI fund. (03:40) - Why Ankur believes we are just at the start of the AI revolution. (06:23) - Winner Capital's focus on the AI application layer for consumers. (07:32) - Managing fund dynamics for deep tech vs. software AI investments. (10:07) - A founder conversation that changed Ankur's conviction about a market. (15:26) - Clearest indicators of durable retention in consumer AI. (18:21) - The opportunity of launching a fund during a market correction. (20:27) - The operational shift from the 0-to-1 to the 10-to-100 million journey. (26:01) - The one operating principle from Paytm/Swiggy that founders underestimate. (30:01) - Balancing growth vs. unit economics at the seed stage. (36:08) - Ankur's perspective on India as a market and talent base. (38:57) - Start of the rapid-fire round. Podcast Links: Prashant Choubey - https://www.linkedin.com/in/choubeysahab Subscribe to VC10X newsletter - https://vc10x.beehiiv.com Subscribe on YouTube - https://youtube.com/@VC10X Subscribe on Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vc10x-investing-venture-capital-asset-management-private/id1632806986 Subscribe on Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7F7KEhXNhTx1bKTBFgzv3k?si=WgQ4ozMiQJ-6nowj6wBgqQ VC10X website - https://vc10x.com For sponsorship queries, reach out to prashantchoubey3@gmail.com #consumerai #venturecapital

## Transcript

[0:00] There's sort of two narratives around AI right now. 1 is that
[0:03] we're just getting started with AI on the other side being Which
[0:07] which thinks that AI is already over hyped and overvalued.
[0:11] AI nativeness is an obvious future.
[0:14] Like it's an obvious present. Actually, not even a future.
[0:16] In consumer and consumer AI, what are your clearest
[0:20] indicators of durable retention? What's the short lived novelty?
[0:24] You know, early users, early adopters have to start showing
[0:27] ambassador level retention loops.
[0:30] What is 1 operating principle from your pay TM or Swiggy days
[0:35] that most founded underestimate until it is too late?
[0:38] Execution Trump's everything else.
[0:40] Just just execute on ground. Do stuff, don't just talk about
[0:44] it. Ignoring unit economics for the
[0:45] sake of growth is an obvious that you're calling for
[0:47] yourselves. Hey everyone.
[0:50] This is Prashant and I'll be host of the VC10X podcast.
[0:53] And today we have Ankur Sethi with us.
[0:55] Uncle is the founder of Winner Capital.
[0:57] He left a high flying operator career having been part of two
[1:00] iconic Indian startups that went all the way to a public listing
[1:04] to do something most people would not bet on.
[1:07] Start VC fund focus entirely on consumer AI at a time when
[1:11] everyone else was chasing enterprise SAS.
[1:14] His conviction is simple. AI is not the future, it's
[1:17] already the present and the consumer side of it is massively
[1:20] underfunded. In this episode we get into what
[1:23] durable retention actually looks like while unit economics are
[1:26] non negotiable even at the earlier stages.
[1:29] And the one operating principle from his days at Swiggy and PTM
[1:33] that most founders learn too late.
[1:35] So without wasting any time, let's dive straight in.
[1:38] This episode is. Brought to you by Podcast Enix,
[1:41] my podcasting agency for VCs. We help VCs start and run
[1:45] branded podcast. That can serve as.
[1:47] Their entire content engine. Turn the conversations.
[1:51] You're already having. Into a machine 1.
[1:53] Recording becomes your presence on LinkedIn, Spotify, YouTube
[1:57] and e-mail. Don't just build another VC
[2:00] firm, build a. Firm that can stand out to LP's
[2:03] and one that founders can brag about having you on their cap
[2:06] table. Check out our services.
[2:08] At podcast 10X dot. Com I'll put the link in the
[2:11] description below. Now enjoy the episode.
[2:15] Hey Uncle, so good to have you on the VC10X podcast.
[2:17] How are you doing? Very good.
[2:19] Thank you so much. How are you doing?
[2:21] Very well. Thank you.
[2:23] To start things off, can we first know about what was the
[2:28] specific realization or market gap that convinced you to leave
[2:32] your operating roles and start win a capital?
[2:35] So is it typically capital and startups is more like a supply
[2:41] demand value chain, right? So there is a lot of, there's a
[2:45] lot of supply for capital, there's a lot of demand from
[2:49] startups and so on and so forth. But I think what got me
[2:52] convinced in the last two years when I was thinking of quitting
[2:55] my operator role was basically AI at its cusp, right?
[3:00] So AI is just getting started. Consumer, usually when there's a
[3:04] new technology, businesses are much excited about it early the
[3:07] journey. And that is where we were
[3:09] seeing, you know, a lot of B to B SAS and those kind of ventures
[3:14] getting aggressive around their investments.
[3:16] But consumer was largely ignored.
[3:18] So my background has been consumer high utility.
[3:21] You know, that is how I decided that it seems like the right
[3:24] time to start making investments in the consumer behaviour area.
[3:30] And that's how I landed up launching Winner Capital and
[3:33] making it a consumer first deep tech or an AI first venture
[3:38] capital form that we are. Absolutely.
[3:40] Quite interesting. And there's sort of two
[3:42] narratives around AI right now and the stage of market we are
[3:46] in. One is that we're just getting
[3:48] started with AI. Beside.
[3:50] Which seems you are on on the other side being which which
[3:53] thinks that AI is already over hyped and overvalued and you
[3:59] should be very sceptical and careful while investing in it.
[4:02] So give me a view into why you are on the other side, which
[4:07] says that OK, it's just the start of something really,
[4:10] really big. So I think we've been so AI in
[4:15] his previous avatar was called ML, which was machine learning
[4:18] at large, right? We've been doing machine
[4:20] learning since the I remember my time at Swiggy where 2017 18, we
[4:25] were already thinking of personalization through machine
[4:28] learning, learning about each individual and then designing,
[4:32] you know, offerings basis your own personal flavour and your
[4:36] personal behaviour and so on and so forth.
[4:38] So it's not like, you know what we're what we're listening about
[4:41] AI is something very new. Somebody who had data was
[4:44] already working on it internally.
[4:45] There were data scientists teams and you know, everybody was
[4:48] always very deep into that, especially large platforms which
[4:53] run e-commerce or platforms like Swingy, Paytm and, and you know,
[4:56] let's say Flipkart, Amazon and so on and so forth.
[4:58] But what what has changed in last, you know, three years or
[5:04] rather since the time we saw ChatGPT kind of come into the
[5:08] market is the democratization of AI.
[5:10] So today these large language models, which only a large
[5:14] organization could afford, can now be run by smaller companies.
[5:18] They can create their own language models, smaller
[5:20] language models using these larger platforms and so on and
[5:23] so forth. And basically your ability to
[5:28] make the intelligence on the platform much, much smarter is
[5:32] much easier. So you can now go into, you
[5:35] know, being AI native, you can go into being a vertical AI
[5:39] first organization very, very easily at much lower cost
[5:43] compared to what you were doing, you know, let's say before this
[5:47] really happened. So essentially we being on the
[5:51] other side of making AI first investments.
[5:53] That's all we think. We think that, you know, AI
[5:56] nativeness is an obvious future. Like it's an obvious present,
[6:00] actually not even a future. You have to think AI natively.
[6:03] You have to think very, very vertically around AI.
[6:06] And, you know, there is so much benefit that consumer needs to
[6:09] see now, whether it has to do with your healthcare, it's your
[6:12] education, finance, convenience, everything will essentially
[6:17] start getting impacted, you know, by the abilities or what
[6:20] AI can deliver. So that's how we think about it.
[6:23] Absolutely. So at Winner Capital, from what
[6:26] I understand, you've chosen to focus on the AI application to
[6:30] the consumer space, let's say the ML layer, which was earlier
[6:35] and let's say at Swiggy now the AI layer, let's call it that.
[6:39] That is what you're trying to focus on at Winner Capital.
[6:42] Right. Yep, that's what we're trying to
[6:44] focus on. We're focusing on basically
[6:46] anything that impacts, you know, your lifestyle, your behavior
[6:50] today as a consumer to anything that will impact in the future.
[6:53] So we do look at frontier tech also very seriously, you know,
[6:57] where where robotics and even let's say space tech is an
[7:01] interesting, interesting category to be kind of unlocking
[7:05] in the future, right? So we think that AI is basically
[7:09] enabling, democratizing, also kind of going much faster in the
[7:15] evolution compared to any other technology that ever did.
[7:18] So it seems like, you know, we we want to we want to part of
[7:22] the journeys of those founders who are basically either
[7:24] changing something for today, right now, or thinking very big
[7:28] or differently about the future of the consumer.
[7:31] So yeah. Absolutely.
[7:33] But being a deep tech investor, being a deep tech fund versus
[7:37] being SAS or let's say AI fund, which is more on the software
[7:41] side, these are actually 2 very different fund dynamics.
[7:46] You know, like exit cycles of these two different types of
[7:49] companies is actually different, right?
[7:52] So how do you do that within the same fund?
[7:55] Do you have a certain demarcation within the fund
[7:57] that, OK, we have set aside this part of the fund who's going to
[8:00] go towards AI and software and this other part which is going
[8:03] to go into frontier tech. So can we view into that?
[8:07] So we, we first of all we are not AB to B SAS fund at all.
[8:11] So we are actually an anti B to B SAS kind of fund.
[8:14] So we we call ourselves a little bit anti enterprise fund in
[8:17] fact. So we want to go after solutions
[8:21] which are not enterprise heavy, but maybe small retailer and
[8:24] consumer heavy. Those solutions is what is what
[8:27] we are focusing on from a segregation or earmarking the
[8:32] budget for that We are as of now syndicate fund.
[8:34] So we are not too much concerned about you know where do we go
[8:37] with this exactly in terms of earmarking it.
[8:39] But we are very opportunistic in those terms.
[8:42] So anybody you know any company that we see for example, I, I
[8:46] made some personal investment in a company called Natalis which
[8:49] is basically a wide body airplane, you know which
[8:53] basically merges with with the existing things that you have.
[8:57] So technology which will basically basically have 50%
[9:02] more capacity on your cargo, 30% more efficient on your fuel and
[9:06] almost same capacity for off passengers.
[9:09] They've they've got I think $6 million in their order books
[9:12] right now. So you know, those are the those
[9:14] are the kind of futuristic technologies also that we are
[9:17] very keen on and we're very opportunistic about that same
[9:19] point in time. We are looking at something
[9:21] which is, which is a legal tech company, which solves for, let's
[9:25] say, you know, real estate in, in North America.
[9:28] There's a closing lawyer, amazing convincing lawyer which
[9:31] which you need and they're solving it through AI
[9:33] integration their entire process, which is for today, you
[9:37] know. So those are those are typically
[9:40] kind of, you know, the thought process that we have, but we
[9:44] will be stick very much to anything that impacts consumer
[9:48] either in direct shape or maybe through a smaller retail
[9:53] function solution that you've built.
[9:56] Absolutely. And there's a key learning there
[9:58] for our listeners that when you're when you want to do
[10:01] somewhat different types of investing, which might be hard
[10:05] for LP's to put under one bucket.
[10:08] I think being a syndicate actually is a good option for
[10:11] your and gives you more freedom into investing in a different
[10:13] types of company because then you're investing deal by deal
[10:16] basis. So that's one positive on that
[10:19] side. Can you share an example of a
[10:22] founder conversation where they taught you something on obvious
[10:25] a lot in the market and it changed your conviction?
[10:29] Yeah, I can. I can share a few stories.
[10:31] So for example, this wide body plane, right, today's challenge
[10:34] is actually let's say you would think there's a regulation
[10:38] challenge in building a company like that.
[10:40] But the reality is when we are talking to founders, the reality
[10:43] is there is supply chain challenge, there is
[10:46] infrastructure challenge, there is on ground execution
[10:50] challenge. So think of this as, you know,
[10:52] your airplane turning from from a single tube kind of structure
[10:57] to more, you know, wide body triangle structure.
[11:01] Now your airports are not ready for that or your, you know,
[11:05] Bombardier has been trying to do this for almost 2 decades, but
[11:08] they could not do it because they're basically production
[11:11] chains do not allow for, for a change like that.
[11:13] It's not an experiment that they need to do.
[11:15] They need to make an investment which makes the entire design
[11:19] run differently and so on and so forth, right?
[11:21] So in the market, there needs to be new company and new
[11:26] infrastructure, a new production line which can do this, very
[11:29] similar to let's say how Tesla did for EV cards, right?
[11:34] If if Tesla or let's say VNW or Mercedes were trying to do this,
[11:38] you know, until Tesla open source the entire technology, it
[11:43] was not going to happen. It never happened.
[11:44] Tesla came in and said, OK, you know, let's let's set up an
[11:48] entire new factory, let's set up the new supply chain, you know,
[11:52] a new new design within the car to do, you know, EVs.
[11:57] And then everybody else just followed when the open source
[12:01] open sourcing of Tesla technology really happened right
[12:04] until then, it was all just Tesla trying to do the same
[12:06] thing. Similarly, in air plane, in
[12:09] aircraft industry, this is what we learned when we were talking
[12:11] to this guy, right? So Alex told us that, you know,
[12:15] typically the challenge this is NASA approved technology from a
[12:18] regulation standpoint, it's approved even, you know, your
[12:22] your airport authorities have approved.
[12:25] But the problem is in design, you know, there are no
[12:28] production lines which can manufacture this.
[12:31] There is no on ground. So for example, this plane, when
[12:33] it hits the ground, it will need a very different infrastructure
[12:36] to even upload the cargo in, in the, in the airplane, right?
[12:43] Which is, which in itself is a small little change, but it's a
[12:46] big change for, for systems that have been running for ages.
[12:50] And you know how the entire large facility is managed.
[12:52] So that that makes it very critical.
[12:56] You know, that's what we learned talking to these guys that, you
[12:59] know, how critical is actually this execution on ground more
[13:02] than anything else, you know, and that, that that was a great
[13:06] insight for us to learn about the industry as such.
[13:08] And then look at the other good example that I have is, you
[13:14] know, talking to Andrew at at body, for example, right?
[13:17] Like we've not spoken to him directly, but listening to him
[13:22] or some of his conversations, you know, being an AI super
[13:25] connector, not a very complex problem, but we'd all been kind
[13:29] of very obviously experienced situation where we have noise
[13:35] all around. We have thousands of connections
[13:37] on LinkedIn, but we don't know who's relevant, who'll be able
[13:40] to help us. And imagine talking to someone,
[13:43] you know, what this call and explaining them what you want,
[13:46] whether whether it is an investor, whether it is another
[13:48] founder or somebody else. And this super connector
[13:53] basically helps you, you know, connect to those people who are
[13:56] relevant for what you need. And it's a game changer, right?
[14:01] In the last one year, they've connected with 100,000 founders,
[14:04] they've connected with thousands of investors and so on and so
[14:07] forth, right? So just a basic insight, right?
[14:11] It's the point is, can you pick up that relevance from the
[14:14] noise? And these guys did so well, you
[14:18] know, with, with, with that, with just that concept.
[14:20] So usually founders who are deep into solving one or two
[14:25] problems, usually one problem is what I prefer, you know, where
[14:28] they're saying, OK, you know, we want to be this legal company,
[14:32] for example, that we're talking to is looking at being a closing
[14:34] lawyer. So that's it.
[14:35] They're saying we want to replace the closing lawyer.
[14:38] And that's the insight because that process is Lendy is a black
[14:41] hole process. Nobody knows what happens.
[14:43] There's no transparency. You know, once you're, once
[14:45] you've done the entire deal, you're just doing going through
[14:48] this closing process and then, you know, you're put in a black
[14:50] hole and you have no idea what's what's really going inside it.
[14:53] There's no transparency, right? So they're just trying to unlock
[14:56] that through their own one AI lawyer and then that being
[14:59] integrated with, you know, human lawyer because regulations don't
[15:03] completely allow 100% independence there.
[15:07] And that's it. That's that's the insight,
[15:09] right? And that's a lovely insight.
[15:11] And that's a very relevant insight for a consumer, you
[15:14] know, to have their transparency, to have much lower
[15:16] cost to execute something like that.
[15:18] And the rest is obviously, you know, we kind of judge the
[15:22] founder on their abilities to build a business.
[15:24] But largely the insight was very clear.
[15:27] Quite interesting. And in in consumer and consumer
[15:30] AI, what are your clearest indicators of durable retention?
[15:34] What's this shortly of loyalty? So see the durable retention is
[15:40] where you see not just same people coming back, but they
[15:43] also talk about your product to their friends.
[15:46] There is a lot of rifle that starts coming in.
[15:49] Your three month retentions are looking great.
[15:52] Your six month retentions are looking great.
[15:54] Especially your early, you know, early users, early adopters have
[15:59] to start showing like ambassador level retention loops.
[16:05] So they're not just using you for, you know, the service that
[16:09] you're offering. They start using you for
[16:11] something else as well. You know, they like it so much,
[16:14] they like that, you know, ability to unlock through this
[16:17] product and, and now they're like, OK, can I use this product
[16:20] for this as well? Can I do something with this as
[16:22] well? And then can I go and talk to,
[16:24] you know, more friends about, hey, I am, I am ordering through
[16:27] this platform. I am using this platform for
[16:29] doing this and so on and so forth.
[16:31] And you know, those are those are the signs when you talk to
[16:33] the consumers, they usually talk it out very, very clearly
[16:37] because they're very excited. They're happy to be your early
[16:40] adopters and you know, usually do show those signs that they
[16:44] are in it, you know, because there was a real need.
[16:47] It wasn't some some, you know, fancy, you know, Instagram real
[16:51] show off, you know that they're trying to do it here.
[16:54] They're really high on their utility, they're high on their
[16:58] use case, and that's why they continue to use it and share it
[17:00] with their friends. So that's usually how you kind
[17:03] of are able to make a judgement on on the durability of this
[17:05] retention. And also I think you have to
[17:12] continuously talk to these guys. Are they becoming your
[17:15] ambassadors or not is an important metric early on to say
[17:19] that OK, you guys look great and I've been talking to people
[17:24] about you guys and I think it's a great service.
[17:29] And then they come back, they come back with either their Aovs
[17:32] going up, they come back with more use cases themselves and
[17:36] you just keep spending on the platform.
[17:38] So that is, and in high numbers, in high numbers, I mean, even if
[17:42] let's say you look for a consumer, something like 1000
[17:44] users a month is a very nominal number, right?
[17:47] So 1000 users a month trying to do something like this,
[17:50] bringing, you know, higher 9598% kind of retention, you know,
[17:55] using you every month, increasing their retention loop.
[17:59] So if they were using you 4 times, have they started using
[18:01] you 5 times or whatever, You know, averages have started
[18:05] going up. Are they spending more on the
[18:06] platform those things and are they also bringing in referrals,
[18:10] you know, to to kind of talk about your platform?
[18:13] So usually these are some good signs for kind of gauging the
[18:18] durability of specific cohort that you're talking about.
[18:22] Absolutely. And you launched a winner
[18:24] Capital during a significant market connection, right?
[18:27] What was the hardest part of raising a first time fund or
[18:32] setting up a syndicate in this environment?
[18:34] So I, I very strongly believe this, that crisis is always an
[18:41] opportunity. So that's how we see this as a
[18:43] time. This is the time when valuations
[18:46] are more kind of real. You know, the businesses that
[18:51] are getting built are more real. You know, the fact is much
[18:56] lighter, much lesser, sorry, right.
[18:58] So the the fact in, in the entire structure is much lesser.
[19:04] There's real stuff that is happening.
[19:06] Companies which are able to build a real muscle through
[19:09] economics, through right distribution channels, through
[19:13] right partnerships are able to kind of scale well and make use
[19:18] of this time. You know, and that's very
[19:20] important. I think if you're building first
[19:24] principle, if you're building a fundamental business, if you're
[19:26] solving a real problem for a user, you know, you will have to
[19:30] find your ways and prove it through economics of the
[19:33] business. And the right companies are
[19:35] doing it at this point in time. So we're very happy that we've
[19:37] entered the market at this point in time typically because even
[19:42] founders are more realistic LP's, you don't understand that
[19:47] how we are thinking and picking up those companies that we are
[19:50] investing in. So our LP's are usually very
[19:52] happy with the kind of valuation of the companies that we're
[19:55] bringing in. The quality of founders that
[19:57] we're able to bring in is also highly valued at this point in
[20:00] time. And in general if, if anyone who
[20:03] can sustain this time will also do well, like there is, this is
[20:08] market correctness time is when markets have hit rock bottom in
[20:12] a way, right. So there's only upwards kind of
[20:15] trend from here on. So we are also generally more
[20:18] excited about the future as much as you know just figuring out
[20:22] and doing first principle stuff during this phase of of of
[20:25] market correction. Absolutely.
[20:28] And you've been a part of two amazing success stories of the
[20:32] Indian startup ecosystem. Both of those companies have
[20:36] gone public, right. So from that operator experience
[20:41] of yours, what is the biggest shift required to go from chaos,
[20:46] that is, let's say the zero to 1 journey to clarity, which let's
[20:50] say is the 1010 million to 100 million story?
[20:54] Right, right. So say 0 to one, one to 10 and
[21:00] 10 to 100. These are three very different
[21:02] phases that you need to evolve as a company, as a founder, as a
[21:07] balance sheet as well. You don't know how you think
[21:10] about scaling these things. So zero to 1 is where you are
[21:14] mostly dabbling between how you think of a problem and how does
[21:21] a solution need to take a shape for that problem, right?
[21:23] So zero to 1 is where you're saying, OK, let's say problem is
[21:30] organizations trying to hire or problem is healthcare, you know,
[21:35] which is not very transparent into this world, especially
[21:38] let's say in India, you know, and how do I solve that problem?
[21:42] In that phase, you're talking to a lot of partners, you're
[21:46] talking to hospitals, you're talking to doctors, you're
[21:48] trying to, you know, kind of other stakeholders conversations
[21:52] you're trying to do. But eventually you are not at a
[21:55] place where you know, what is the right solution at this point
[21:57] in time. Because zero to 1 is when you're
[21:59] discovering, you know, this is what happens in the market.
[22:03] This is how consumers currently consume a certain product or a
[22:08] service and so on and so forth. This is where the challenges and
[22:11] this is what the insight is. So zero to 1 is where you have
[22:14] like, just think of this as a this as a place where you know,
[22:19] it's more of a research phase, right?
[22:22] And you're also trying to make sense in that research of, you
[22:26] know, so just about designing that research in itself is more
[22:31] zero to 1 saying, Hey, this is the problem.
[22:34] These are, these are the possible solutions.
[22:36] Let me go and throw these solutions.
[22:39] So zero to 1 somewhere you've built an insight and now you've
[22:41] started throwing these solutions in the market, right?
[22:44] And once you start throwing these solutions, you start
[22:46] seeing this one to 10 phase transition starting to happen
[22:50] very organically, right? You're, you're throwing one
[22:53] solution. It's not sticking.
[22:54] You're like, Hey, this was the insight.
[22:55] What do I need to do differently?
[22:57] You'll make some changes, you'll see some growth and, and you
[23:00] know, maybe one will go to two and you'll be like, OK, this
[23:02] looks like the solution, but it's kind of sees that two.
[23:05] And then you'll be like, OK, let me try another solution because
[23:08] beyond this, it's not happening and so on and so forth.
[23:10] Maybe the market was not correct and, and stuff like that.
[23:13] And you will try and pivot to then get to a point where one to
[23:16] 10 will start converting into that chaos, becoming more
[23:20] structured or, you know, some method being added to that
[23:23] madness. And then, you know, one to 10 is
[23:26] where you start seeing some kind of conviction around.
[23:29] And hey, yes, this is, this is my product market for this is
[23:32] how I see the world. This is how I see this problem
[23:35] getting solved. And you know, now I think it
[23:38] looks like that time where you're 2 to 10 needs to happen
[23:41] or whatever, one to 10 needs to happen very, very fast.
[23:44] And you will realize that now retention loops are working, my
[23:48] economics are working, my referral is working and so on
[23:52] and so forth. Looks like I'm in the right
[23:53] spot. And then 10 to 100 is where you
[23:55] scale everything around whatever you've kind of learnt and
[23:59] understood and the playbook that you've created to say, OK, now
[24:02] this is the, this is the typical solution that I'm solving for.
[24:06] And, you know, now I need to scale up leadership.
[24:08] Now I need to scale up technology.
[24:10] Now I just need to scale up marketing.
[24:12] I need to bring in leaders. I need to bring in, you know,
[24:15] more structure to the organization and then just
[24:18] rapidly grow like what you did from one to 10 has to be done in
[24:22] almost a similar fashion in a 10 to 100, but with many more
[24:26] leaders in the organizations with lot more focus on execution
[24:30] and not experimenting too much. So it's not the time like doing
[24:34] experiments you as a founder can think of.
[24:36] So you're thinking of 100 million plus journey already
[24:39] somewhere. But practically your 10 to 100
[24:42] million journey will be where you'll be executing day in, day
[24:46] out, like your, you know, your typical 1010200 million journeys
[24:50] that you're getting on a call at 9:00 AM with the team just
[24:53] talking about, hey, how, how well did we execute yesterday?
[24:56] You know, where are we? You know, where have we made the
[24:58] progress? What is our week on weeks
[25:00] looking like? Where are we dropping the balls?
[25:02] Where are we? You know, what's happening with
[25:04] team structures, what's happening with team hirings and
[25:07] so on and so forth. So leadership hiring becomes
[25:09] very critical. Your ability to scale your
[25:11] marketing becomes very critical. Your ability to scale technology
[25:14] in itself becomes very critical and so on and so forth.
[25:17] And you have to like as an individual, start thinking as a
[25:20] founder, start thinking very differently, scale your own
[25:23] thinking very much because now you're supposed to get like
[25:26] senior leaders reporting to you have that structure where you
[25:31] know, you've built a brand which can hire senior leaders leaders
[25:34] as well. And that's a very, very
[25:36] different mindset all together, right?
[25:38] So you kind of start planting that in the one to 10 million
[25:41] journey somewhere. And 10 to 100 million is
[25:44] absolutely you know, different journey all together.
[25:47] Does that Does that answer your question?
[25:49] Absolutely, it does pretty well and I think you've described it
[25:53] very beautifully on how that early stage journey of
[25:56] exploration and then onto validation and execution and
[26:00] then finally to scaling and doubling down.
[26:02] So I think that's going to be very valuable for founders.
[26:05] Moving on, what is 1 operating principle from your Paytm or
[26:09] Swiggy days that most founder and underestimate until it is
[26:13] too late? So I think two things that I
[26:18] always talk about, 1 is execution Trump's everything
[26:22] else. Just execute on ground, do
[26:25] stuff, don't just talk about it, just go and do that stuff.
[26:28] And then second is your ability to scale yourself.
[26:31] Founders ability to be scalable himself in his mind, his ability
[26:36] to think of hiring leaders, of leading leaders and so on and so
[26:41] forth is equally critical. So that's what I've learnt, you
[26:44] know, working at these companies as well, that as a founder, it
[26:49] is very critical that you build that brand and you build those
[26:52] structures where leaders can thrive.
[26:56] Leaders can like literally they execute that.
[26:59] The stuff you know they've learned or the value that they
[27:02] bring to the table, you have to give them that space.
[27:04] You have to give them that infrastructure, you have to give
[27:07] them that ability to execute things on ground as well.
[27:10] And then of course, execution has to happen.
[27:14] Everything else just does not matter.
[27:17] I think both these companies that I've been lucky to be a
[27:20] part of had this execution skill set to the Max.
[27:25] Like you would execute stuff overnight.
[27:27] Like even today, I, I keep reading about Swiggy of
[27:30] launching a new, entirely new product, new app in 15 days.
[27:34] You know, like even new, a smaller teams are not able to do
[27:37] it. And imagine, you know, a Goliath
[27:40] trying to kind of launch a new product in 15 days, right?
[27:44] That's, that's, that's massive. That's that's what, you know, a
[27:48] supreme execution skill set in the organization is driven and
[27:54] same as same as Paytm, like Vijay is very passionate about,
[27:58] you know, kind of committing to things that we need to deliver
[28:02] on. And then everybody in the team
[28:05] would go double down and just execute the stuff, get it done.
[28:08] And even if it fails at times, it's fine because that's part of
[28:10] the process. When you're when you keep doing
[28:12] new stuff, when you're doing 10 to 100, obviously it's a
[28:15] different journey. But let's say when you're from a
[28:17] zero to 10 state, you execute a lot of stuff, you try and do a
[28:20] lot of things within the org and then all of that boils down to
[28:23] your ability to execute. And then again, 10 to 100 is
[28:26] also about execution of 100 to to whatever. 100 million to a
[28:30] billion is also more about execution, but those are more
[28:32] structured execution. You have a lot more KPIs and
[28:37] Kara set in and you're driven very differently when it's that
[28:41] kind of scale, 100 million to a billion.
[28:42] But at least from a zero to 10 stage, it has to be heads down
[28:48] just doing stuff. That's how we do by the way,
[28:52] that's how we run our venture as well.
[28:53] We because we're also an early stage fund in a way, right?
[28:56] We're also a new, new fund. We are also very focused on
[29:00] executing stuff and doing stuff on the ground, finding the
[29:02] companies, setting up the structures, hiring the right
[29:06] people and all of that from the very beginning itself.
[29:08] And that's how you build your brand.
[29:10] Absolutely, completely agree. And I completely see the path
[29:13] that you're taking in building with a capital.
[29:16] And I've seen multiple VCs also do similar thing.
[29:18] They start out being a syndicate because that's some good
[29:21] exploration phase if you try to relate it to what you were
[29:24] saying earlier. And then once you've found your
[29:26] deal flow, you're already getting allocation in companies.
[29:29] That's all of your validation coming in.
[29:31] And then you can, if you want, you can mature into a fund and
[29:34] show LPS that, OK, I already have deal, so I've already made
[29:38] investments and this is My Portfolio and you can see how
[29:41] it's performing. And then that is, you know, much
[29:45] better for LP's to look at. They have more context and maybe
[29:49] more willing to back here at that stage and then you can
[29:51] scale from there, so. Yeah, track record matters.
[29:54] So syndicate is, is usually to build that track record for your
[29:58] firm. So that's, that's, that's a good
[29:59] one, yeah. Totally, totally agree.
[30:03] How do you think about growth versus unit economics at sea
[30:06] today? What are you willing to
[30:08] subsidise and for how long? So growth versus unit economics,
[30:14] I think it's a very market driven situation as well.
[30:17] So it's not something that you can very independently take a
[30:20] call on. It depends how competition is
[30:23] playing out. It depends.
[30:24] See unit economics is fundamental.
[30:26] So you can't build a business anyways without unit economics.
[30:29] So you have to be very clear on unit economics from even in zero
[30:32] to 1 stage. You've got to figure it out
[30:34] whether this makes sense. Maybe a AER napkin math is fine
[30:38] as well, but it has to make sense on saying OK from an
[30:41] industry level standpoint, unit economics looks OK for a
[30:44] business like this. Growth is very much dependent on
[30:46] how market is evolving in that space, what's happening, how
[30:50] competition is doing, you know how much capital others are
[30:54] raising in the same category. And if there is a, there's a
[30:57] strong opportunity, let's say I always look at growth or capital
[31:02] infusion as your ability to scale like a front load
[31:07] experience, right, Saying if I, if I don't raise or grow at a
[31:13] pace today, you know, I can achieve this in five years.
[31:16] But if I do something through inorganic growth, can I do this
[31:20] in two years? And if I do this in two years,
[31:22] where can I land with it, right? Is there a possible exit for my
[31:26] investors? Is there possible scale of
[31:29] opportunity to maybe lead the industry, set the tone for the
[31:34] industry and so on and so forth. So it's it's very market
[31:37] contextual when it comes to very, very scalable growth,
[31:42] scalable growth as in, you know, like very, very fast growth,
[31:45] rapid growth at same point in time, you have to take what is
[31:50] vice for your business, take that call basis again, like I
[31:54] said, competition, what's how the market behaving?
[31:56] And then your personal understanding of, you know,
[31:58] maybe let's say at tech, right, I always give this example at
[32:02] tech is a great opportunity to be unlocked, but we've seen so
[32:07] many deaths happening while you did try growing those businesses
[32:12] inorganically and thinking that, you know, a 500 million business
[32:16] can eventually be acquired or you know, we can be industry
[32:21] leaders. And then you realize, OK, the
[32:23] unit economics didn't work. And then, you know, all of this
[32:26] growth is not a sustainable growth.
[32:29] So I think that's, that's a very critical factor that you and,
[32:34] and this is also dependent on how market is evolving.
[32:36] And I've seen this cycle multiple times.
[32:38] I've seen this happening in the real real estate tech, prop
[32:42] tech, you know, with housing.com collapsing, we were running as
[32:45] part of company called Grabos at that point in time.
[32:47] Everything else collapsed once, you know, housing collapsed.
[32:50] I've seen this happening in air tech.
[32:53] You know, similarly again, when when BIOS was growing, then
[32:56] everyone was, you know, the upgrade was growing and Academy
[33:00] was growing. Everybody was like just, you
[33:02] know, that was a market sentiment.
[33:04] Nobody kind of focus too much on the unit economics and everybody
[33:06] is like, OK, market is growing. We have to be leaders.
[33:09] We will be the number one, you know, a tech platform and so on
[33:12] and so forth. Everybody kept going hard on it.
[33:14] But the one that sustained and continues to do well, for
[33:17] example, is a company like upgrade, right, which is more
[33:21] fundamental driven, which is more unit economics driven,
[33:23] which is more, you know, focused on principal growth than, you
[33:29] know, just going in, in organically trying to grow
[33:32] business, which is what Baidu's and an Academy tried to do.
[33:34] And then, you know, they kind of went out of the business.
[33:37] So I think that's important that you always read the market.
[33:41] Well, you make good judgement calls when you need to grow
[33:46] because you will lose the position in the market.
[33:49] But at same point in time, ignoring, you know, economics
[33:51] for the sake of growth is, is is an obvious that you're calling
[33:55] for yourself. So I think be very, very careful
[33:57] about that when when we're comparing growth, you know, with
[34:02] with unit economics. Unit economics is a is a non
[34:05] negotiable kind of a metric that has to work.
[34:09] Absolutely. And when we're talking about a
[34:10] tech in India, I think one story or one company that we should
[34:14] also mention is physics, while it was actually a late entrant
[34:19] to the market and certainly got to a Unicorn valuation.
[34:23] Almost. With the first round they raised
[34:26] and then also is the first and only company to go public and
[34:31] with a successful listing right? Absolutely, because they look at
[34:35] their economics, right. They are like highly profitable,
[34:39] great attention, doing the right fundamental stuff there.
[34:44] And it's not just about the single guy trying to drive the
[34:47] business. It's the this company which is
[34:49] which is basically built a new methods to teach, you know, some
[34:53] complex subjects and that's what they're they're living on right
[34:58] the whatever class ratios and stuff like that.
[35:01] They did something very fundamental that they were doing
[35:02] offline already. They brought the kind of
[35:05] integrated online very smartly, you know, use that technology
[35:10] basically to enable the existing business.
[35:12] They didn't try and they create a business around technology.
[35:16] They use technology to basically enable their existing offline
[35:19] business, which is which is how fundamentally founders need to
[35:22] think as well. The business is not the
[35:24] transaction is not really happening online as much as it
[35:26] is happening with persons in offline world, right?
[35:29] Even Amazon is an offline transaction in the end, it's
[35:32] just that you're giving them opportunity to navigate online
[35:35] and find their products and so on and so forth.
[35:37] But the experience of delivery, whether it is one day delivery
[35:40] or whatever, three day delivery, being sent in a great pack and
[35:43] all of that, those are fundamental things.
[35:45] Those are the ways that that you know, you can't like you can't
[35:49] negotiate on things like that because the business is still
[35:53] selling that iPhone and selling that I watch and so on and so
[35:56] forth. That's still that's the business
[35:58] that Amazon does as well, right? There's, there's nothing unique
[36:01] about it, but the way they do it is what makes it, you know, kind
[36:06] of stay ahead of everybody else. Absolutely.
[36:09] And now I do the last question before we move to the rapid fire
[36:11] around how do you look at India right now as a market and as a
[36:15] talent base? Are you actively making
[36:17] investments in India or planning to in future?
[36:21] So we unfortunately at this point in time of our kind of
[36:26] fund, we are not investing in India.
[36:28] You know, we are very focused on North America as a region and
[36:32] that's also because we are a new fund, we are a new team.
[36:35] We have to stay focused. So India is is a massive
[36:39] opportunity. I think there is, there is for
[36:41] sure we're going to kind of expand to India sooner or later.
[36:46] At same point in time, I think India needs to build a lot more
[36:50] intervention as well as much as you know there is innovation.
[36:55] So India's very specific and and because I come from that market
[36:59] myself building businesses in that market, I think there is a
[37:02] lot of local innovation that happens.
[37:04] You know, for example, 10 minute delivery can only happen in
[37:07] India, it cannot happen in in North America, right, for for
[37:11] obvious reasons, but similar kind of so that's, that's more
[37:17] on the innovation side. I would say.
[37:18] Can we invent, can we do more, lot more on our R&D in
[37:22] technology, you know, is where I think India should spend more
[37:27] capital. Government is now kind of is
[37:29] getting sensitive about that as well.
[37:31] So that's good. I think private companies, even
[37:34] private capital needs to go into a lot more research around some
[37:39] of the very typical sectors like healthcare, even education or
[37:46] building tech itself. You know, I think we can do much
[37:49] better when it comes to the size of population that we have and
[37:53] democratizing that technology across.
[37:56] I think what.com did what Geo did with Internet penetration.
[38:00] There's an opportunity with AI to actually enable individuals
[38:06] kind of prosper economically by using and learning around these
[38:11] technologies. And with AI around, I think
[38:15] significant change can happen in, you know, the depth of
[38:18] education in the country and you know, that can that can change
[38:22] the face of our of our country. In the other way.
[38:26] I think strategically for us is, is an important market.
[38:30] Maybe our I don't know what is the right time, but maybe later
[38:34] fun one, fun tools we'll figure out, you know, when do we need
[38:36] to enter that market And we're very category specific and
[38:40] there's also very competitive even when it comes to venture.
[38:43] So we need to have, you know, the right team on ground and
[38:47] right people executing that stuff.
[38:49] So I think that's that's critical and we're not sure as
[38:52] of Norman we'll enter that market.
[38:53] But eventually, yes, of course, we would want to be a part of
[38:56] that growth journey. Absolutely.
[38:58] Thanks for sharing that. I'm not on the rapid fire around
[39:01] wherein I'll ask you 6 quick questions about the investing
[39:04] and doing correctly. It's with the Syndicate, and you
[39:07] have to give 6 quick answers. All right, let's go.
[39:10] So the first one is what are the sectors and regions you invest
[39:14] in? So we invest in North America,
[39:16] we invest in consumer tech, consumer AI, consumer deep tech,
[39:21] anything that impacts consumers directly or in AB to B to C
[39:26] fashion is where we invest and we are keenly.
[39:30] Excited about? Absolutely.
[39:32] What's the typical stage of investment?
[39:35] We try and come in at seed but very opportunistic around pre
[39:39] seed as well and then we try and support through Series A or late
[39:43] seed stages as well. OK.
[39:47] Do you lead rounds? We can lead rounds, yes.
[39:51] OK. What's the typical check size
[39:53] you put in? So usually we are targeting
[39:56] about two 50K or two or 500K kind of checks in the
[40:00] investments that we make, OK. Where can founders get in touch
[40:04] in case there's a directory? Ankur Adventer dot capital.
[40:08] That's my e-mail. I am also on LinkedIn by my
[40:11] name. Ankur City.
[40:13] Look me up and just send me a message.
[40:16] Usually very active other than the last few weeks which I've
[40:19] been over busy. But yeah uncle adminar dot
[40:22] capital just e-mail it across. That's the best way I do it.
[40:26] Absolutely. And last one, we can at least
[40:27] not follow you. LinkedIn, Just go on LinkedIn.
[40:32] You confirm me. I post a lot of content there,
[40:34] talk to founders there. We do.
[40:36] Sometimes we do live sessions as well.
[40:39] So usually that's my platform. I have to be on Twitter as well.
[40:42] A lot of people have been asking me, but I have not gotten used
[40:46] to all that platform as yet, Yeah.
[40:48] You'll get there, no worries. Awesome permission to put your
[40:51] links in the show notes, fellow, so that our listeners can get
[40:55] there easily. Thanks so much for making time,
[40:57] Ankur. It's been amazing having you on
[40:59] the podcast and I wish you all the best for building out Winner
[41:01] Capital. Thank you so much Prashanth.
[41:03] I appreciate your time today as well.
[41:07] Guys, thank you.

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