# A Dhruv crash & an Air Force chief's Tejas lament: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in focus| IOD, S02, Ep 52

An episode of [In Our Defence](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1617244439), 9 Jan 2025, 1 h 03 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/63626055/09_jan_25_defence_9_jan_128.mp3

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - India's premier aerospace manufacturing company - is in focus this week due to factors some argue are beyond its control. A fatal crash of a Dhruv Mk III Advanced Light Helicopter has led to a fleet wide grounding across all the services that operate it. And, in an unrelated development, the Indian Air Force expressed frustration with the delays in the deliveries of the Tejas fighter jet. Both the machines in question are the crown jewels of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's efforts design, develop and build indigenous aircraft for India's military. The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited plays an outsized role in India's military aviation and the two developments have once again put the spotlight on the government-owned behemoth's ability to deliver quality on time. And so, on this episode of In Our Defence, host Dev Goswami and defence expert Shiv Aroor take a close look at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and all that's wrong - and also what's right - with the organisation. The two explore what the HAL needs to do to in order to shrug off its bureaucratic past and move into the competitive future where its position as India's sole supplier of military aviation equipment is at threat. Dev and Shiv also take a particular close look as Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal AP Singh's recent lament of not getting the Tejas fighter jets on time. The Air Force chief unusually strong comments raised a few eyebrows. What's behind the sentiment? Tune in for this and more to the latest episode of In Our Defence. Tune in to our previous episode on HAL here: https://indiatoday.link/NKw4 Produced by Garvit Srivastava Sound Mix by Nitin Rawat

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: This is India Today podcasts. The reason why HL has
[0:05] Speaker 1: probably not even bothered about having a decent website, or
[0:08] Speaker 1: not even needed to bother about having a website, is
[0:11] Speaker 1: because that has never ever played a part in its
[0:14] Speaker 1: order book. Its order book has been assured. You know,
[0:16] Speaker 1: they could have been sitting with their legs up in
[0:18] Speaker 1: the office and the orders would still be flowing in
[0:20] Speaker 1: because the Air Force simply had nowhere else to order
[0:23] Speaker 1: aircraft from. HL actually did a pretty decent job of
[0:27] Speaker 1: aligning itself as a reasonably competent licensed producer of aircraft
[0:32] Speaker 1: in the country, which basically meant becoming a very proficient
[0:35] Speaker 1: cookie cutter. You give me the technology, you give me
[0:37] Speaker 1: the drawings, you give me the blueprints, and I will
[0:39] Speaker 1: build those aircraft using my materials. Here in India, HL
[0:43] Speaker 1: has had its nightmarish wake up call since we are
[0:46] Speaker 1: so important dependent you know, Akman with barbarat has become difficult.
[0:49] Speaker 1: But if the they just doesn't come on time, Air
[0:51] Speaker 1: Chief Marshall ap saying will be spending sleepless nights. So
[0:55] Speaker 1: when he says technology delayed is technology denied, he is
[0:58] Speaker 1: not bullshitting, He's not pissing around. He's he's saying, this
[1:02] Speaker 1: is my job. This is literally my job to make
[1:04] Speaker 1: sure that technology is not denied to my air warriors.
[1:08] Speaker 1: What else am I going to fight with?
[1:11] Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Another Defense, a weekly podcast on
[1:15] Speaker 2: all things well defense, where I They've go Swami, your host,
[1:19] Speaker 2: along with senior journalist Shivarur, break down the world of
[1:23] Speaker 2: conflicts that range from the subtle to the brute. We
[1:26] Speaker 2: bring you nuances and perspectives that will inform and at
[1:29] Speaker 2: times provoke.
[1:33] Speaker 1: This is in our Defense.
[1:36] Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the fifty second episode of Another Defense.
[1:38] Speaker 2: Exactly one year of season two of Another Defense. Congrad
[1:42] Speaker 2: shift didn't feel like a year.
[1:43] Speaker 1: I have to be really honest, because this has felt
[1:47] Speaker 1: really effortless and easy, and I think our viewers we
[1:50] Speaker 1: should like salute them for that as we wish them
[1:52] Speaker 1: a happy new year. For yes to making the same
[1:55] Speaker 1: second nature to us now.
[1:57] Speaker 2: And also, you know, hats off to our producer. There's
[2:00] Speaker 2: any who's actually you know, made it so effortless for us.
[2:02] Speaker 2: And on a sad note, we'll have to say that
[2:05] Speaker 2: this is going to be her last episode with us.
[2:09] Speaker 2: She's done season one, season two, so for me, it's
[2:11] Speaker 2: been nearly two years. I think for u AU, so
[2:15] Speaker 2: fantastic experience with her.
[2:17] Speaker 1: You know, she kept fantastic experience. And it's Hannah's loss,
[2:20] Speaker 1: of course leaving the podcast. So you whish are the
[2:23] Speaker 1: very best as she goes on to achieve far greater
[2:26] Speaker 1: things than in our defense. But we will of course
[2:28] Speaker 1: miss her greatly.
[2:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, but she can try achieving greater things. I think
[2:31] Speaker 2: this will always be the greatest thing.
[2:32] Speaker 1: Maybe she'll be.
[2:33] Speaker 2: Back also, Yeah, right, So what are we going to
[2:38] Speaker 2: talk about this week? Like you said just before we
[2:39] Speaker 2: started rolling, you know, this new year, but same old shit,
[2:43] Speaker 2: not really exactly but kind of that.
[2:45] Speaker 1: Actually I guarantee, I guarantee it, except on a slightly
[2:50] Speaker 1: higher level.
[2:51] Speaker 2: That's exlightly high level exactly. So we're gonna be talking
[2:54] Speaker 2: about the Hindustan Era, not Exhlimited. We've talked about this
[2:57] Speaker 2: company in parts every time we've talked about in an
[3:01] Speaker 2: Air Force. It's many problems with its aging fighter fleet,
[3:04] Speaker 2: with the TAGES program, the deliveries of the just Mark
[3:07] Speaker 2: one that are still delayed.
[3:09] Speaker 3: Uh, h L has always been a.
[3:11] Speaker 2: Part a year and then we've also talked about h
[3:14] Speaker 2: L when we talked about the under helicopter, an advanced
[3:18] Speaker 2: version of not advanced per se, but our combat helicopter
[3:22] Speaker 2: based on the Groove platform, which actually is one of
[3:24] Speaker 2: the peg of this of this episode.
[3:27] Speaker 1: So what I was.
[3:28] Speaker 2: Thinking was, because we've gotten two nice pegs, which I'll
[3:31] Speaker 2: just explain it in a brief moment, we'll kind of
[3:34] Speaker 2: talk about this company, what it's like, what have your
[3:37] Speaker 2: interactions with this company been like, and how do you
[3:39] Speaker 2: see the company because for for for lay people, it's
[3:42] Speaker 2: just a name. We don't really know what it does,
[3:44] Speaker 2: how it's shaped, how it's based, how how big of
[3:47] Speaker 2: a big, big big it is, et cetera. Uh, And
[3:50] Speaker 2: then also talk about it's kind of relationship with the
[3:53] Speaker 2: Air Force and the current problems that it faces, and
[3:57] Speaker 2: how I wouldn't say this company is to blame for it,
[4:00] Speaker 2: but perhaps has played a role because when it comes
[4:03] Speaker 2: to India's military aviation, it plays a huge role. And
[4:06] Speaker 2: I think after talking to you over several episode, I
[4:10] Speaker 2: think it plays a dangerously huge role kind of almost
[4:13] Speaker 2: monopolizing the supply of military aviation equipment to Army, Air Force,
[4:18] Speaker 2: the Navy Coast Guard. So the pegs of this episode
[4:21] Speaker 2: two one is that the alh Droove Mark three, one
[4:26] Speaker 2: of which crashed a few days ago near It was
[4:30] Speaker 2: a Coast Guard helicopter three unfortunately died three crew members,
[4:33] Speaker 2: and that has led to a subsequent grounding of all
[4:36] Speaker 2: the helicopris and service across all the all the services
[4:39] Speaker 2: Coast Guard, Navy, Air Force, Army around three thirty odd
[4:42] Speaker 2: if I'm not wrong. A similar grounding happened in twenty
[4:44] Speaker 2: twenty three, when again there were three crashes in a
[4:47] Speaker 2: spate in a span off I think around two to
[4:49] Speaker 2: two and a half months. And even this third crash
[4:51] Speaker 2: that has happened in jan twenty twenty five happened just
[4:55] Speaker 2: a few months after two crashes happened late last year.
[4:59] Speaker 3: It's a that's happened.
[5:01] Speaker 2: So we'll begin this episode talking about the Groove, what's
[5:04] Speaker 2: happening with this stropper. But before we do that, the
[5:07] Speaker 2: second peg, which is going to be a very interesting one,
[5:09] Speaker 2: which we'll kind of circle back to towards the end
[5:11] Speaker 2: of this episode. When we finished talking about hl Is
[5:15] Speaker 2: the Air Force chief at a recent conference where he
[5:19] Speaker 2: kind of expressed his dismay at the delays in the
[5:22] Speaker 2: deliveries of stages. But I think this may would be
[5:24] Speaker 2: like an understatement.
[5:25] Speaker 1: He was pretty pretty strong.
[5:27] Speaker 3: Words, pretty tough words.
[5:29] Speaker 2: But I don't want to begin with those because then
[5:31] Speaker 2: I think we'll end up sounding like a broken record,
[5:33] Speaker 2: like you said, you know, repeating the same thing again
[5:36] Speaker 2: and again, because we've talked about that several several times.
[5:39] Speaker 2: But there were a couple of things that he said
[5:40] Speaker 2: that I think we should talk about. But again, like
[5:43] Speaker 2: I said, we'll do that in a bit. So before
[5:45] Speaker 2: we talk about HL, tell us about what's happening with
[5:47] Speaker 2: the Droop helicopter, the crashes that have happened in the
[5:49] Speaker 2: last few months, the crashes that happened in twenty twenty
[5:51] Speaker 2: three within a span of a few months that led
[5:54] Speaker 2: to ground a grounding and the ground of that's happened
[5:56] Speaker 2: right now. And also when we talk about groundings in
[5:59] Speaker 2: the military sense, what does it mean. So in the
[6:02] Speaker 2: commercial space, I know, for example, you know you will
[6:04] Speaker 2: have flight delays, you'll have flight tickets going prices going
[6:08] Speaker 2: up because you have shortage of aircraft, you have losses
[6:10] Speaker 2: suffered by the companies. They have to rework their entire schedules,
[6:13] Speaker 2: like they had to do with when the Bowing seventy
[6:14] Speaker 2: seven globally had to be grounded because of two deadly crashes.
[6:18] Speaker 2: When it comes to aviation, when you have an important
[6:21] Speaker 2: piece of equipment, remember you have thirty a lot of
[6:23] Speaker 2: these services across across the services. What does a grounding mean?
[6:27] Speaker 2: And then tell us about this helicopter and what's going
[6:29] Speaker 2: on with it.
[6:29] Speaker 1: So, first of all, the grounding of the groove is
[6:33] Speaker 1: a routine procedure. Whatever a crash happens, you know, by
[6:38] Speaker 1: and large, if it is not immediately apparent why the
[6:41] Speaker 1: crash happened, you know, a sort of fleetwide grounding is
[6:45] Speaker 1: a fairly routine routine action that is taken. And like
[6:48] Speaker 1: you rightly pointed out, it's not the first time that's happened.
[6:51] Speaker 1: It happened last year as well. What is worrying is
[6:54] Speaker 1: that the ALS drove, the drove helicopter that crashed in
[6:57] Speaker 1: poor Bundar, killing three was A three, which is the
[7:00] Speaker 1: most modern version off the drove, and it was a
[7:04] Speaker 1: similar type of helicopter that had crashed at sea last
[7:07] Speaker 1: year during a rescue mission in which three people or
[7:11] Speaker 1: I think four four were killed in one person was
[7:14] Speaker 1: rescued alive. I think both of those crashes the last
[7:18] Speaker 1: one and the current one I'm talking about. The Coast
[7:20] Speaker 1: Guard Mark three's are currently under investigation. There are Board
[7:24] Speaker 1: of Inquiries that are looking into them. So I don't
[7:26] Speaker 1: want to second guess what caused the crashes because they
[7:30] Speaker 1: may be completely different. We don't know if they were
[7:32] Speaker 1: technical failures or human error. We don't know that, and
[7:35] Speaker 1: it's unfair to second guess what happened. But obviously the
[7:38] Speaker 1: seriousness of a crash means that you know, a fleet
[7:41] Speaker 1: white grounding was deemed necessary. Now, when a fleet white
[7:44] Speaker 1: grounding takes place, as you rightly pointed out, it affects
[7:49] Speaker 1: operations in a big way because the droove helicopter is
[7:53] Speaker 1: present in large numbers in the Navy, the Air Force,
[7:57] Speaker 1: especially the Air Force with the Army and the Coast Guard.
[8:01] Speaker 1: The Coast Card of course has a smaller number, but
[8:03] Speaker 1: all three services use them in large numbers. The Army
[8:06] Speaker 1: uses two different varieties, the utility version and also the
[8:09] Speaker 1: armed version, which is called the drug again in large numbers.
[8:13] Speaker 1: So fleet white grounding means anything with this air frame
[8:16] Speaker 1: and engine stays on the ground until it is cleared
[8:19] Speaker 1: to fly. Once again, the reason why a fleet white
[8:22] Speaker 1: grounding has possibly been deemed necessary, and a fleet white
[8:26] Speaker 1: grounding means hundreds of these helicopters are now on the
[8:29] Speaker 1: ground and not conducting their daily operations. And the droove,
[8:33] Speaker 1: you know, for our viewers who may not be aware,
[8:34] Speaker 1: is a you know, it's it's an advanced light helicopter
[8:38] Speaker 1: and is part of the regular workhorse utility work that
[8:42] Speaker 1: is undertaken by helicopters across our military forces, carrying troops,
[8:46] Speaker 1: carrying equipment, you know, carrying fuel, doing all the you know,
[8:52] Speaker 1: all the kind of non combat activity that is required
[8:56] Speaker 1: by large militaries, and most of it is literally carrying
[9:00] Speaker 1: stuff to troops or units in you know, in disparate areas.
[9:06] Speaker 1: So helicopters form a very core part of that force,
[9:10] Speaker 1: and the roof is a is an important member of
[9:13] Speaker 1: that fleet. So if you suddenly ground the entire fleet,
[9:18] Speaker 1: it means a large part of your helicopter force that
[9:22] Speaker 1: is used to transport material, humans, troops, whatever it is,
[9:27] Speaker 1: is suddenly not available for you to use. So you've
[9:29] Speaker 1: got to use other things. You've got to use other helicopters,
[9:31] Speaker 1: you've got to use aircraft, You've got to perhaps send
[9:35] Speaker 1: things by road for a while. In some areas, So
[9:38] Speaker 1: therefore it's an impediment for sure. How long this fleetwhile
[9:41] Speaker 1: grounding lasts, we don't know. Previous groundings have lasted anywhere
[9:45] Speaker 1: between a few days to a few weeks. The reason
[9:48] Speaker 1: why this particular fleet white grounding perhaps has been deemed
[9:51] Speaker 1: necessary Groove they've again is this is again conjecture, because
[9:57] Speaker 1: there is a problem with the roof that the the
[10:00] Speaker 1: military is dealing with. And when I say problem, I
[10:02] Speaker 1: don't mean that it is unfliable. It is an excellent helicopter,
[10:06] Speaker 1: has deemed to be has has been seen to be safe.
[10:09] Speaker 1: It is operationally available to the forces. You know, they
[10:12] Speaker 1: they deem it to be safe to fly their pilots
[10:14] Speaker 1: and people in. But there appears to be a design
[10:18] Speaker 1: flaw in a certain component which is the subject matter
[10:22] Speaker 1: of an ongoing discussion between the operators of this helicopter
[10:27] Speaker 1: and HL. This has been widely reported. I remember reporting
[10:30] Speaker 1: it way back in you know, in the in the
[10:33] Speaker 1: mid two thousands. Ecuador, which was one of the first
[10:35] Speaker 1: export customers of the Groove, incidentally became the first operator
[10:40] Speaker 1: of the Droove to point out that there is some
[10:42] Speaker 1: kind of an issue with the control system where you know,
[10:47] Speaker 1: during roles, you know, the helicopter is unable to you know,
[10:51] Speaker 1: take a lot of power and it spins out of control.
[10:55] Speaker 1: And this had to do with certain transmission systems. The
[10:58] Speaker 1: design of those transmission systems, not really the quality of them.
[11:02] Speaker 1: I may be getting some specifics of this wrong, but
[11:04] Speaker 1: largely there are some component design issues which have come
[11:07] Speaker 1: to the fore and for a while HL was kind
[11:10] Speaker 1: of fighting back on those because whenever a design flaw
[11:14] Speaker 1: or a component design flow is pointed out, it practically
[11:18] Speaker 1: means going back to the drawing board on that particular component,
[11:22] Speaker 1: redesigning it, retesting the helicopter across the board, across high altitude,
[11:26] Speaker 1: low altitude, sea level, et cetera, and then re certifying
[11:30] Speaker 1: it for the military, and then reintroducing it back to
[11:33] Speaker 1: its customers. It's an arduous, painstaking, kind of kind of
[11:38] Speaker 1: difficult sort of it's a kind of shitty job that
[11:40] Speaker 1: nobody wants to do. But since it is safety specific,
[11:44] Speaker 1: it's something that the military now insists upon. The reason
[11:49] Speaker 1: why it hasn't happened, The obvious question would be, if
[11:51] Speaker 1: it's a safety issue, why hasn't it happened so far? Well,
[11:54] Speaker 1: the reason for that is because the drove by itself
[11:58] Speaker 1: is a totally capable, prime safe flying machine. But these
[12:03] Speaker 1: crashes have happened. It's not like they're crashing left, right
[12:06] Speaker 1: and center. It's not that at all. But there have
[12:08] Speaker 1: been these crashes where, uh, several different accidents have been
[12:13] Speaker 1: found to have concluded that the causal issues the same.
[12:18] Speaker 1: It's the control rod or whatever it is, the transmission system,
[12:21] Speaker 1: where where a certain component, you know, hasn't been performing
[12:25] Speaker 1: the way it's supposed to perform, and therefore it is
[12:28] Speaker 1: seen as hl's responsibility, uh to to do it. Uh.
[12:32] Speaker 1: There have been reports suggesting that HL has been resisted
[12:34] Speaker 1: into it. There have been reports to suggest that HL
[12:37] Speaker 1: has uh you know, has has notified the military about,
[12:43] Speaker 1: you know, certain limitations of the helicopter in terms of
[12:45] Speaker 1: its flying qualities, what to do, what not to do
[12:48] Speaker 1: in terms of flying You shouldn't be pushing the helicopter beyond, uh,
[12:52] Speaker 1: you know, beyond certain a certain kind of control envelope
[12:56] Speaker 1: beyond which it might go out of control. So that
[12:59] Speaker 1: kind of tutum, to put it flippantly, has happened over
[13:03] Speaker 1: the years between between the operators and HL. Some of
[13:07] Speaker 1: the operators have been frankly quite disgruntled, and I don't
[13:10] Speaker 1: blame them by what they see as a kind of
[13:13] Speaker 1: obstinacy from HL side, the operator basically saying, look, there's
[13:18] Speaker 1: a problem with these helicopters, and you know, when I
[13:21] Speaker 1: put my men and women into these helicopters and send
[13:23] Speaker 1: them up, I need to be one hundred percent sure that,
[13:27] Speaker 1: you know, all safety issues are catered for. Now. If
[13:30] Speaker 1: I have a whole host of accidents that have taken place,
[13:34] Speaker 1: not one after the other, but over time that point
[13:38] Speaker 1: to a similar issue, a similar mechanical issue, or a
[13:41] Speaker 1: design issue, then it is the owners is on HL
[13:44] Speaker 1: to accept that there is a problem, take it with
[13:47] Speaker 1: maturity and say, look, let's let's fix this, you know,
[13:50] Speaker 1: let's get together and fix it, instead of resisting or
[13:53] Speaker 1: seeing it as some kind of you know, embarrassment so
[13:58] Speaker 1: or resisting it as you know, as if it's some
[13:59] Speaker 1: kind of punitive action by the operators to somehow downplay
[14:04] Speaker 1: the abilities of this helicopter. So I think that's the
[14:07] Speaker 1: reason why this has happened. So the operators now have
[14:09] Speaker 1: shown faith in the groove because orders are still coming,
[14:12] Speaker 1: orders are still being placed, And I once again repeat
[14:15] Speaker 1: that the Droove is an extremely robust, capable, safe helicopter,
[14:20] Speaker 1: but the owners has to be on HL to make
[14:23] Speaker 1: sure that all concerns, design, mechanical, whatever it is, are
[14:27] Speaker 1: addressed without you know, without any sort of latent resentment
[14:32] Speaker 1: about why are the operators always you know, raising these issues.
[14:36] Speaker 1: You know, why can't you just shut up and fly
[14:38] Speaker 1: the helicopter? You know, it can't be that kind of
[14:40] Speaker 1: a relationship. And I think there's a little bit of
[14:42] Speaker 1: that in.
[14:42] Speaker 2: This Yeah, it's important because you know, we are talking
[14:45] Speaker 2: about military aviation, which inherently is dangerous by its way
[14:48] Speaker 2: in nature. So you'd want everything to be as close
[14:51] Speaker 2: to perfect as possible. Obviously you cannot get perfect, but
[14:54] Speaker 2: you need to be there, right there, and which is
[14:57] Speaker 2: where you'd need the company you're dealing with to be proactive.
[15:00] Speaker 2: Otherwise you can tell them, you know what will go
[15:02] Speaker 2: somewhere else, but that can't happen with the AGA, and
[15:04] Speaker 2: that is going to be one of I think one
[15:05] Speaker 2: of the main topics of this of this episode, and
[15:08] Speaker 2: something that even the Air Force chief said, but again
[15:11] Speaker 2: a bit later on that so uncloak this company for
[15:14] Speaker 2: a shift because you know, I again went back to
[15:16] Speaker 2: the website. And remember, in a previous episode, I think
[15:19] Speaker 2: it was a presant episode, I told you about how
[15:21] Speaker 2: I was very annoyed that the website had photographs that
[15:25] Speaker 2: were the aspectrations of which were completely all over the place.
[15:28] Speaker 2: They've changed that, by the way, I don't know if
[15:29] Speaker 2: it was because they listened to the episode and you know.
[15:32] Speaker 1: By the way it was it was defense impact.
[15:36] Speaker 2: In a defense impact then yes, so the photos have changed,
[15:38] Speaker 2: but the website still looks I'm sorry shitty. It doesn't
[15:41] Speaker 2: matter though, I mean, that's not really their job. But
[15:43] Speaker 2: the point I'm trying to make with that is that
[15:45] Speaker 2: when you go to the website, I don't really get
[15:46] Speaker 2: a sense that this is a company playing at the cutting.
[15:49] Speaker 3: Edge of aviation tech.
[15:51] Speaker 2: Remember, this is a company that has produced fighter jet,
[15:54] Speaker 2: that is producing fighter jets, that is working with dr
[15:57] Speaker 2: d or DRDO is one of the agencies on the AMCA,
[16:01] Speaker 2: the fifth generation fighter that indiaim is to produce by
[16:04] Speaker 2: its own That website will not give you that hint.
[16:07] Speaker 3: And again I don't want to focus on the website.
[16:10] Speaker 2: But what I'm trying to get at is like for
[16:12] Speaker 2: someone like me, for lay people, if I want to
[16:14] Speaker 2: understand this company, this behaviorth What is this company in
[16:17] Speaker 2: your dealings with this?
[16:18] Speaker 3: Help us explain what is HL?
[16:20] Speaker 2: I know from the history that it was established somewhere
[16:24] Speaker 2: and I think in nineteen forty before independence. In ninety
[16:27] Speaker 2: fifty one it was nationalized and the current HL that
[16:30] Speaker 2: we see was kind of incorporated in nineteen sixty three
[16:32] Speaker 2: and since then.
[16:34] Speaker 3: Very interesting.
[16:35] Speaker 2: If you go to the history page and if you
[16:36] Speaker 2: control F and search for the word license manufacturing, it
[16:39] Speaker 2: will come up like I think around ten to twelve times,
[16:41] Speaker 2: because almost a majority of its work.
[16:44] Speaker 3: Has been licensed.
[16:44] Speaker 2: They get license from some company, mostly Russian, and they
[16:48] Speaker 2: manufactured those planes over year. So tell us about this company?
[16:51] Speaker 3: What is HIL?
[16:53] Speaker 1: So let me preface what I'm going to say by
[16:55] Speaker 1: saying that HL is populated by very very capable space engineers,
[17:01] Speaker 1: uh you know, aerospace scientists, designers, builders, mechanics, welders, managers,
[17:08] Speaker 1: top of the line people. They're really, really good, competent people.
[17:12] Speaker 1: And I'm prefacing it with this nicety because because things
[17:15] Speaker 1: are gonna get nasty now, right, So nobody inside HL
[17:19] Speaker 1: alone is to blame for you know what I'm about
[17:22] Speaker 1: to say. But uh, I'll talk about the bad stuff,
[17:26] Speaker 1: and then I'll talk about the good stuff, because let's
[17:27] Speaker 1: let's be very clear about one thing. Uh, there's a
[17:30] Speaker 1: lot that's good about HL. There's a lot that's that
[17:33] Speaker 1: the country needs as far as HL is concerned, but
[17:36] Speaker 1: maybe not in the way that it stands right now.
[17:38] Speaker 1: And I'll qualify that in a moment. Now, HL or
[17:40] Speaker 1: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, is UH defense ministry run public sector
[17:46] Speaker 1: undertaking huge you know, socialist era ps U UH that
[17:52] Speaker 1: that basically manufactures aircraft, largely military aircraft. The you know,
[17:58] Speaker 1: I like how you bring up the website often, and
[18:01] Speaker 1: I've thought about it a lot, because it's actually an
[18:03] Speaker 1: amazing metaphor for HL. And you know, like I explained
[18:07] Speaker 1: in that previous episode, the reason why HL has probably
[18:10] Speaker 1: not even bothered about having a decent website, or not
[18:14] Speaker 1: even needed to bother about having a website, is because
[18:17] Speaker 1: that has never ever played a part in its order book.
[18:21] Speaker 1: Its order book has been assured. You know, they could
[18:24] Speaker 1: have been sitting with their legs up in the office
[18:26] Speaker 1: and the orders would still be flowing in because the
[18:28] Speaker 1: Air Force simply had nowhere else to order aircraft from.
[18:32] Speaker 1: So when you are a company where you do not
[18:35] Speaker 1: have to fight for orders. You are not competing with
[18:37] Speaker 1: anyone else. There is no level playing field with the
[18:40] Speaker 1: private sector. Therefore, there is no threat to your order book.
[18:44] Speaker 1: You do not have to seek orders from the Ministry
[18:46] Speaker 1: of Defense because the Ministry of Defense, which governs the
[18:49] Speaker 1: Air Force, the Navy, and the Army, is ensuring that
[18:52] Speaker 1: you get those orders because at the end of each year,
[18:55] Speaker 1: there is a dividend check that comes to the Ministry
[18:57] Speaker 1: of Defense. You know, these are all well, these are obvious,
[19:01] Speaker 1: uncomfortable truths, but that's the way it is. And this
[19:05] Speaker 1: is a system that has worked largely well. You know
[19:08] Speaker 1: when you said that you found the word license appearing
[19:11] Speaker 1: a dozen times on the HL website. That's because HL
[19:15] Speaker 1: actually did a pretty decent job of aligning itself as
[19:19] Speaker 1: a reasonably competent license producer of aircraft in the country,
[19:24] Speaker 1: which basically meant becoming a very proficient cookie cutter. You
[19:28] Speaker 1: give me the technology, you give me the drawings, you
[19:31] Speaker 1: give me the blueprints, and I will build those aircraft
[19:33] Speaker 1: using my materials here in India. So HL did that
[19:37] Speaker 1: with the mid twenty one. HL did that with the
[19:41] Speaker 1: mid twenty seven. I think HL I could be wrong.
[19:45] Speaker 1: HL definitely did that with the does that right now
[19:48] Speaker 1: with the sou thirty. HL did that with the Avro
[19:51] Speaker 1: HS seven four eight. HL has done that with the Jaguar,
[19:55] Speaker 1: which is the Anglo French fight obomber. And HL has
[19:59] Speaker 1: done that with a few other aircraft as well, some
[20:02] Speaker 1: trainers and other aircraft, the Hawks, et cetera. And therefore,
[20:07] Speaker 1: this is a this is a company that has built
[20:10] Speaker 1: up a high competency of acquiring, acquiring the know how
[20:16] Speaker 1: and building an aircraft under using ip that is not
[20:20] Speaker 1: its own. It's done that. The one time when HL
[20:23] Speaker 1: built an aircraft quote unquote from scratch using its own
[20:28] Speaker 1: design and technology, et cetera, was the HF twenty four Maruth,
[20:31] Speaker 1: which was an aircraft that has a kind of unfortunate
[20:34] Speaker 1: story because it it was retired well before its time.
[20:39] Speaker 1: You know, by the time it became a competent fighter,
[20:42] Speaker 1: it was kind of taken over by slightly more capable
[20:44] Speaker 1: high performance jets and stuff. And therefore the HF twenty
[20:48] Speaker 1: four has kind of passed into lore, a kind of
[20:51] Speaker 1: fond nostal jet who never really had its big shot
[20:54] Speaker 1: in terms of combat. But post that, the only the
[20:58] Speaker 1: only really big sort of homegrown project that HL has
[21:02] Speaker 1: had is a the drove, which we talked about. Uh.
[21:05] Speaker 1: And and then there is the theages. Uh. Both of
[21:08] Speaker 1: these involve the design and development aspect of it are
[21:12] Speaker 1: entirely uh under government agencies, the d R d O
[21:16] Speaker 1: or the UH Aeronautical Development Agency UH and you know
[21:21] Speaker 1: National Aerospace Laboratory and all these other alphabet soup of
[21:25] Speaker 1: laboratories that have come together to create these uh and
[21:29] Speaker 1: uh uh none of these, none of these programs have
[21:32] Speaker 1: involved the private sector at the at the core design
[21:36] Speaker 1: and development phase. UH. The private sector has only entered
[21:40] Speaker 1: the entered the room once manufacturing needed to happen. Then
[21:43] Speaker 1: you outsource components and subsystems and suppliers and this kind
[21:47] Speaker 1: of thing to private sector and there they supply things
[21:50] Speaker 1: to you, but they've got no say in the design
[21:52] Speaker 1: and development uh of these aircraft. So uh so HLU.
[21:57] Speaker 1: You know, by the turn of the millennium and beyond,
[22:00] Speaker 1: had become a company which was almost one hundred percent monopolistic,
[22:05] Speaker 1: you know, apart from the Mirage two thousands that had
[22:07] Speaker 1: been bought from abroad. And I'm talking about in the
[22:09] Speaker 1: modern era and the mid twenty nine's from Russia. Virtually
[22:14] Speaker 1: nothing else, you know, was a program that did not
[22:18] Speaker 1: have a direct HL you know on it. Either HL
[22:21] Speaker 1: was maintaining those aircraft, or HL was producing those aircraft
[22:25] Speaker 1: under license, or HL had some kind of a workshare
[22:28] Speaker 1: contract or a joint venture or a partnership with whoever,
[22:31] Speaker 1: with France or UK or Russia and doing something with
[22:34] Speaker 1: those aircraft in India, or HL was upgrading those aircraft.
[22:38] Speaker 1: So HL was getting a nice little slice of every
[22:42] Speaker 1: bit of air power activity in the country, I can say,
[22:46] Speaker 1: and that turned out to be extremely lucrative. But it
[22:50] Speaker 1: also it also kind of created a company that saw
[22:54] Speaker 1: no incentive in innovating, you know, creating its own products,
[23:00] Speaker 1: uh you know, putting large scale funds, perhaps in futuristic
[23:07] Speaker 1: concepts of the kind that they've started to do. Now
[23:09] Speaker 1: we've done a whole episode on hl's you know, unmanned
[23:12] Speaker 1: programs and stuff, and we'll put that in the show notes.
[23:15] Speaker 1: But I'm talking about how things have changed now because
[23:20] Speaker 1: of how things have changed in the last decade and
[23:22] Speaker 1: a half, where the private sector has now slowly started,
[23:26] Speaker 1: uh you know, coming into defense manufacture and development and
[23:30] Speaker 1: been given opportunities by the governments, the previous government and
[23:33] Speaker 1: this government. This government mostly actually has opened things up
[23:36] Speaker 1: for the private sector, which is why and again we've
[23:39] Speaker 1: devoted an entire episode to what I call, you know,
[23:42] Speaker 1: hl's worst nightmare, which is someone other than HL building
[23:48] Speaker 1: military aircraft in India. And in this case that's it's
[23:50] Speaker 1: the Tata Is building the C two ninety five between
[23:53] Speaker 1: Hyderabad and Vadudra. So HL has smelled the coffee. HL
[23:58] Speaker 1: has had its nightmari is wake up call in the
[24:01] Speaker 1: form of the C two ninety five contract. And believe me,
[24:03] Speaker 1: they fought it tooth and nail. They didn't want it
[24:05] Speaker 1: to happen at all. So they are aware now that
[24:09] Speaker 1: this government is not is not playing around, you know,
[24:12] Speaker 1: they will force the market to compete. They will force
[24:17] Speaker 1: HL to compete. They will give lucrative, big contracts to
[24:22] Speaker 1: the private sector where it is deemed necessary. And therefore
[24:25] Speaker 1: HL now becomes an animal in the market. It has
[24:28] Speaker 1: to compete. That's the reason why those photos are no
[24:31] Speaker 1: longer stretched on the website. Perhaps you know, maybe maybe
[24:34] Speaker 1: it'll have a more modern, you know, social media presence.
[24:38] Speaker 1: Now it does have a social media presence there are
[24:42] Speaker 1: embarrassing things to say over there, but I'll leave that
[24:44] Speaker 1: for another day. And its whole public outreach is a
[24:48] Speaker 1: is many degrees. They've believed me. I've seen HL before.
[24:51] Speaker 1: This phase that we're talking about, and the way they
[24:54] Speaker 1: are now is a sea change. It's a much more
[24:57] Speaker 1: public friendly company. It's a much more professional company. They
[25:01] Speaker 1: are much more aggressive in terms of showcasing their capabilities
[25:05] Speaker 1: in foreign shows. They are much more aggressive in terms
[25:09] Speaker 1: of pumping money into you know, futuristic programs that may
[25:13] Speaker 1: actually bear fruit, if not profits, ten fifteen, twenty years
[25:17] Speaker 1: from now, long after the current management is gone. So
[25:20] Speaker 1: for a company that was you know, much more obsessed
[25:24] Speaker 1: with near term profits and the current order book and
[25:27] Speaker 1: making sure that the next annual report has the maximum profits,
[25:31] Speaker 1: now you have a semblance of a culture in HL
[25:35] Speaker 1: that says, this is now an existential issue. Okay, we
[25:40] Speaker 1: are now dealing with a market with a government that
[25:44] Speaker 1: is not going to take our old you know, quote
[25:46] Speaker 1: unquote Nehruvian bullshit about not touching your PSUs any longer.
[25:51] Speaker 1: Nobody is going to throw HL a bone. We've got
[25:54] Speaker 1: to compete. We've got to win contracts on even ground
[25:58] Speaker 1: with the private sector and with the C two nine
[26:01] Speaker 1: to five contract, HL should now behave like it expects
[26:06] Speaker 1: any other contract that potentially could come to it could
[26:09] Speaker 1: be snapped up by someone in the private sector, or
[26:12] Speaker 1: it will be forced to be in partnership with the
[26:13] Speaker 1: private sector. You mentioned the AMCA In twenty twenty, I
[26:17] Speaker 1: had done an interview with HL where the chairmen had
[26:20] Speaker 1: told me that the AMCA fifth generation fighter project was
[26:24] Speaker 1: going to be a India's first public private partnership military project,
[26:28] Speaker 1: military aircraft project. There's been no movement. Nobody knows where
[26:31] Speaker 1: where things are at. There's no there isn't a whiff
[26:34] Speaker 1: of any private sector participation at this point of time.
[26:38] Speaker 1: Nobody knows what structure it's going forward with. You know,
[26:42] Speaker 1: there are vague reports about when the first flight is
[26:44] Speaker 1: going to be. But I think you know the emergence
[26:47] Speaker 1: of those Chinese fighters, which we you know, saw last
[26:50] Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, has has dramatically changed what
[26:54] Speaker 1: the landscape looks like and therefore HL has got a big,
[26:58] Speaker 1: big fight on its hands. But I'm but but I
[27:00] Speaker 1: will end this answer by saying I'm optimistic about HL.
[27:03] Speaker 1: It needs to it needs to get much leaner, much meaner.
[27:07] Speaker 1: It needs to get. It needs to focus its enormous resources.
[27:11] Speaker 1: HL perhaps needs to be you know, I'm no expert
[27:14] Speaker 1: at this, but I would say HL doesn't need to
[27:16] Speaker 1: be such a large company. It needs to be a
[27:18] Speaker 1: much smaller company. It needs to focus its resources and
[27:22] Speaker 1: it's and it's amazing expertise in you know, design and
[27:25] Speaker 1: development and innovation. You know, rather than having these being
[27:30] Speaker 1: such an enormous corporation, you know, maintaining so many things
[27:34] Speaker 1: that perhaps will not be of fuse to an India
[27:36] Speaker 1: that's looking into the future right now of air power. Uh,
[27:40] Speaker 1: you know.
[27:41] Speaker 2: On that note, I was wondering, how difficult is it
[27:44] Speaker 2: going to be for HL to step into this new world, because, uh,
[27:48] Speaker 2: if you look at India's aviation development, manufacturing sort of
[27:53] Speaker 2: the system, or rather the entire entire entire field, it's
[27:57] Speaker 2: very confusing. You mentioned the alphabet two different agencies involved.
[28:01] Speaker 2: That kind of struck me when I was kind of,
[28:02] Speaker 2: you know, reading up about this, and like you said
[28:05] Speaker 2: at the beginning of this episode, that not all of
[28:07] Speaker 2: this is hl's own doing or officials at the HLS
[28:10] Speaker 2: owned doing, because you have a multitude of agencies responsible
[28:14] Speaker 2: for different different parts of let's say a fighter jet,
[28:16] Speaker 2: right you like you said the tages, you had Drudio's
[28:19] Speaker 2: ada responsible for some of the design, uh, the Indian
[28:22] Speaker 2: indigenous cavery jet engine that never kind of you know,
[28:26] Speaker 2: saw the light light light of day. That was some
[28:28] Speaker 2: other agency altogether. Once again, then you had obviously hl
[28:31] Speaker 2: playing his role. So where I'm getting at is key
[28:33] Speaker 2: you have all these different agencies. Obviously all of them
[28:35] Speaker 2: are under government controls. You can argue but some cubs
[28:39] Speaker 2: has upcomel to AK. But my question then is these
[28:43] Speaker 2: agencies have their own priorities, they have their own budgetary constraints,
[28:46] Speaker 2: they have their own schedules, goals, etc.
[28:48] Speaker 1: To meet.
[28:49] Speaker 2: So if you as a country want to be developing
[28:51] Speaker 2: let's say and Am, if you as a country want
[28:53] Speaker 2: to be developing a fighter jet, wouldn't it make sense
[28:56] Speaker 2: for one company to be there and be like, I'm
[28:59] Speaker 2: going to look over everything like you would have with
[29:02] Speaker 2: say Boeing or Lockheed Martin in the US, or perhaps
[29:04] Speaker 2: you know Tata's if their aviation wing can be like
[29:07] Speaker 2: you know, we will manage everything, will give you a.
[29:08] Speaker 3: Fighter jet at the end of the day.
[29:10] Speaker 2: That do you think is going to be a challenge
[29:12] Speaker 2: for HR as it steps up into the new world.
[29:14] Speaker 1: So so look, I don't personally think they've that, you know,
[29:18] Speaker 1: having a whole bunch of labs or alphabet soupers I
[29:21] Speaker 1: call it. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing.
[29:24] Speaker 1: What is bad is that is the huge amount of
[29:27] Speaker 1: UH of overlap and multiple labs doing similar research, multiple
[29:34] Speaker 1: laboratories and entities producing similar things. You will have five
[29:39] Speaker 1: different labs producing drones of a comparable capability. You'll have
[29:45] Speaker 1: a whole bunch of labs producing similar electronics. You will
[29:48] Speaker 1: have labs under the Science and Tech Ministry producing certain
[29:53] Speaker 1: metallurgical stuff which compares with what will be done by
[29:57] Speaker 1: the MINAM limited, which is a PSU want the Defense ministry.
[30:02] Speaker 1: So I think the order of the day is more
[30:04] Speaker 1: slightly more microscopic. Someone needs to look at from a
[30:08] Speaker 1: military perspective, look at all these disparate labs. It has
[30:11] Speaker 1: happened in some measure. What I'm saying is not some
[30:13] Speaker 1: revolutionary idea, but I'm saying it needs to happen with
[30:16] Speaker 1: a far greater degree of ruthlessness. We are ultimately a
[30:19] Speaker 1: socialist minded company, you know, which thinks of all these
[30:24] Speaker 1: big companies as you know, oh my god, if we
[30:26] Speaker 1: rationalize these companies, what will happen to all these employees?
[30:30] Speaker 1: I think, I don't think it is cruel to say
[30:32] Speaker 1: that the intent of a company like HL is not
[30:35] Speaker 1: to employ thousands of people, but to produce amazing aircraft
[30:38] Speaker 1: for India's war fighters. That is the that is the
[30:42] Speaker 1: the purpose of a company like HL. It is not
[30:45] Speaker 1: meant to be, you know, a net employer of so
[30:47] Speaker 1: many people. I mean, if it needs that many people
[30:49] Speaker 1: to produce those aircraft in the correct way, then that's
[30:53] Speaker 1: absolutely fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think
[30:57] Speaker 1: the country has gotten used to having bloated, govern owned
[31:00] Speaker 1: corporations that aren't doing the job that they're supposed to
[31:03] Speaker 1: do and certainly not doing it in the right way.
[31:05] Speaker 1: So so my my, my idea of having these disparate
[31:08] Speaker 1: labs is, first of all, cut the fat. You've got
[31:11] Speaker 1: to cut the fat. You know, whether that involves, uh,
[31:14] Speaker 1: you know, cutting down on literally the size or the assets,
[31:19] Speaker 1: or you know, or spinning off certain structures and assets
[31:23] Speaker 1: into into you know, profit focused entities that can be
[31:28] Speaker 1: controlled either by the government or the private sector or
[31:30] Speaker 1: public private, you know, create you you've got to create
[31:34] Speaker 1: laboratories that have underpinnings of accountability. The Air Chief talked
[31:39] Speaker 1: about that, and we're going to come to that, you know,
[31:41] Speaker 1: towards the end of this episode. But for for far
[31:44] Speaker 1: too long, for far too long, our laboratories have run
[31:48] Speaker 1: a with the a sense of monopoly that they don't
[31:50] Speaker 1: really have to compete and be that. You know, you know,
[31:55] Speaker 1: if there are cost and time overruns, things will slide.
[31:57] Speaker 1: It's okay, we will, you know. Orchestra past said, you
[32:01] Speaker 1: know that that kind of mentality that no longer holds
[32:04] Speaker 1: because because there is the obvious paradox that India has
[32:08] Speaker 1: actually ignored self reliance in favor of being an enormous
[32:12] Speaker 1: importer of weapons and weapons systems from the you know,
[32:15] Speaker 1: from abroad, and that continues to this day. That ignominy
[32:18] Speaker 1: of India being the number one importer of military hardware
[32:21] Speaker 1: continues to be an albatross across around our neck. Which
[32:24] Speaker 1: is which is why that vicious cycle, since we are
[32:27] Speaker 1: so importt dependent, you know, akmannlburb Bara has become difficult.
[32:31] Speaker 1: But when you try and push Afmanlburbar, you know, the
[32:33] Speaker 1: cycle gets kind of disrupted and at the end of
[32:36] Speaker 1: the day, the customer doesn't get what they want. So
[32:39] Speaker 1: I think, I think, you know, a kind of really
[32:43] Speaker 1: merciless hacking away of uh of redundancies, fat too many
[32:50] Speaker 1: teams doing the same thing. UH, you know, teams that
[32:54] Speaker 1: may not be laser focused on results and delivery. UH,
[32:58] Speaker 1: overlap of teams who are doing the similar thing, lack
[33:02] Speaker 1: of clarity in terms of objectives, failure to meet timelines
[33:07] Speaker 1: and budgets in terms of delivery, resistance to partnerships with
[33:12] Speaker 1: the private sector, resistance to you know, innovating in collaboration
[33:17] Speaker 1: with private sector laboratories, etc. All of these things need
[33:21] Speaker 1: to be fixed. If at the end of that once
[33:24] Speaker 1: you've fixed all those things, if you have fifteen labs
[33:27] Speaker 1: building our next aircraft, so be it. Why not that's
[33:30] Speaker 1: perfect Because an aircraft or a fighter aircraft is a
[33:35] Speaker 1: monumentally complicated machine. It is not going to be built
[33:39] Speaker 1: by one company. It's not going to be designed by
[33:41] Speaker 1: one company. It is going to involve a sort of
[33:44] Speaker 1: neural network of capabilities across different companies and agencies. But
[33:49] Speaker 1: fix all those companies and agencies first. Yes, you know,
[33:52] Speaker 1: they can't all be distracted and bloated and you know,
[33:56] Speaker 1: kind of wishy washy and wooly in terms of what
[33:58] Speaker 1: their real core competency is. And without even being an
[34:03] Speaker 1: aeronautical expert, I can visit Bengaluru tomorrow and write a
[34:07] Speaker 1: fifty word essay on the number of things that are
[34:11] Speaker 1: being done similarly between all the agencies there. It's true,
[34:14] Speaker 1: it's true this will anger a lot of people, but
[34:17] Speaker 1: it's totally true. The backlash will be that, oh, you
[34:20] Speaker 1: don't understand the complexity of the different kinds of things
[34:23] Speaker 1: that one laboratory does versus another laboratory. If the end
[34:27] Speaker 1: result of all this wonderfully unique work that is being
[34:31] Speaker 1: done by all these laboratories is the delivery of you know,
[34:35] Speaker 1: top notch, no bullshit systems, then I will apologize. But
[34:39] Speaker 1: until that happens, I think a certain mercilesslessness needs to
[34:43] Speaker 1: be shown. We have gotten used to too much of
[34:45] Speaker 1: this socialist alphabet soup of laboratories. Every few years, one
[34:49] Speaker 1: committee is formed to rationalize DRDO or to you know,
[34:54] Speaker 1: corporatize the the Ordnance Factory Board that finally happened, you know,
[34:59] Speaker 1: in order to kind of bring bring these guys out
[35:02] Speaker 1: of their sort of Nehruvian pipe dream into you know,
[35:05] Speaker 1: into the kitchen, literally the kitchen and face the heat.
[35:09] Speaker 1: And that hasn't that that's happened in a in too
[35:11] Speaker 1: slow a man. I think it needs to happen violently.
[35:13] Speaker 1: Until that happens, it's it's going to be business as usual.
[35:17] Speaker 3: Yeah, I get it, and I agree with you.
[35:19] Speaker 2: And when I asked this question, what I actually was
[35:21] Speaker 2: kind of hoping for and I was trying to mean,
[35:24] Speaker 2: was this that you know, instead of having all these
[35:26] Speaker 2: agencies doing their own work in silos, you need to
[35:29] Speaker 2: have sort of this one single project or project manager
[35:32] Speaker 2: who could then perhaps crack the whip across those agencies.
[35:34] Speaker 2: You let them report to whoever they're reporting to. You
[35:36] Speaker 2: let them but just come from wherever they're coming from.
[35:38] Speaker 2: But then you make sure that they're adhere to the
[35:41] Speaker 2: timelines and deadlines and the parameters for this one project,
[35:44] Speaker 2: let's say the AMKA project that you have defined this
[35:47] Speaker 2: is what you need to deliver at SENS state, so
[35:49] Speaker 2: that then company number we can then take your delivery
[35:51] Speaker 2: and then do what it has to do.
[35:53] Speaker 1: Right. We'll focus a bit.
[35:55] Speaker 3: On the HLS relationship with the Indian Air force, and
[35:59] Speaker 3: that will.
[35:59] Speaker 2: Also kind of give us sort of an overview of
[36:01] Speaker 2: what this company's all about.
[36:03] Speaker 4: But after a quick break, do you sometimes get frustrated
[36:12] Speaker 4: choosing what to eat for diabetes management while stopping yourself
[36:16] Speaker 4: from eating that chocolate pudding is good? But is it
[36:20] Speaker 4: really enough? This month, Health Wealth will be doing a
[36:23] Speaker 4: special podcast on World Diabetes Day, which is the fourteenth
[36:27] Speaker 4: of November. Tune in and discover with me what nutrients
[36:32] Speaker 4: diabetics should be having and how to supplement your diet
[36:36] Speaker 4: for your long term well being. You can catch the
[36:39] Speaker 4: episode on our website, YouTube, Apple, Spotify and other audio
[36:44] Speaker 4: streaming platforms.
[36:51] Speaker 2: Welcome back, Shive and I have been discussing the Hindustan
[36:54] Speaker 2: are not exlimited and ship has given sort of a
[36:57] Speaker 2: picture of all these companies, all about things that have
[37:00] Speaker 2: perhaps gone wrong over several decades, but the hopeful science
[37:04] Speaker 2: ccs for the for the for the future to kind of,
[37:07] Speaker 2: you know, go towards that the future. I want to
[37:10] Speaker 2: kind of rEFInd just a bit by talking about the
[37:13] Speaker 2: hl's relationship with the Indiine Air Force, which is also
[37:16] Speaker 2: when you know, we'll bring in what the current air
[37:18] Speaker 2: chief had to say it at a recent event. A
[37:20] Speaker 2: couple of days ago. During the episode, you talked about
[37:24] Speaker 2: how there was this intense distrust between the HL and
[37:28] Speaker 2: the Indian Air Force. Tell us a bit about how
[37:31] Speaker 2: did that come to be when you, like you said
[37:34] Speaker 2: at the beginning of this episode, you both of them
[37:36] Speaker 2: had the same bosses. The Ministry of Defense was the
[37:38] Speaker 2: hl's boss, The Ministry of Defense was the Air forces bos.
[37:42] Speaker 2: How did it then happen that the Air Force and
[37:45] Speaker 2: the HL just stopped liking each other for like a
[37:47] Speaker 2: pretty good amount of time and then kind of they
[37:49] Speaker 2: kind of kind of came on board, you know.
[37:51] Speaker 1: The last time, last time we dwelt on this topic.
[37:55] Speaker 1: The the the amount of messages I got from both
[37:58] Speaker 1: HL and the Air Force about this is not funny.
[38:01] Speaker 1: I think it was. It was the largest amount of
[38:03] Speaker 1: feedback it'd ever gotten from the people we were talking about.
[38:07] Speaker 1: Most of the messages saying that you know this is true,
[38:09] Speaker 1: but you know, why talk about this in public and
[38:11] Speaker 1: things like that, and and uh, you know the truth is,
[38:17] Speaker 1: you know, I have seen I have seen minutes of
[38:19] Speaker 1: meetings I'm privy to, uh, you know, interactions. There's nothing
[38:23] Speaker 1: classified about it. Uh, you know, which at one point
[38:28] Speaker 1: of time demonstrated not just a level of distrust, but
[38:33] Speaker 1: a kind of a kind of irritation and UH, to
[38:36] Speaker 1: to simplify it without being facetious, I would say that
[38:40] Speaker 1: the Air Force at one layer of that relationship. It's
[38:43] Speaker 1: a complicated relationship because here is the Air Force which
[38:47] Speaker 1: is charged with the protecting the country, and here's HL
[38:50] Speaker 1: with the monopoly over you know, aircraft deliveries to the
[38:54] Speaker 1: Air Force. Their relationship has been a complicated one for
[38:57] Speaker 1: a long time. It's it's far better now. It's like
[39:00] Speaker 1: now now there are actually some roses on that path.
[39:02] Speaker 1: But at one point of time, there was distrust. There
[39:05] Speaker 1: was a sense of irritation from the Air Force that
[39:08] Speaker 1: this is an HL that doesn't give a damn about
[39:10] Speaker 1: doing anything we really say in terms of feedback, because
[39:14] Speaker 1: who else are we going to go to? So, you know,
[39:16] Speaker 1: you're the captive customer and HL sort of of course,
[39:20] Speaker 1: HL ticked all the boxes and showed respect to its customer,
[39:24] Speaker 1: but there was a culture of taking things for granted
[39:27] Speaker 1: and taking you know, the Air Force for granted, and
[39:32] Speaker 1: that's kind of what happened, and that relationship soured over
[39:36] Speaker 1: the Tager's program across many different issues, whether it was testing,
[39:40] Speaker 1: whether it was manufacture, whether it was delays on various
[39:45] Speaker 1: different levels. There was there was a great deal of
[39:49] Speaker 1: acrimony in that relationship, but it was it was what
[39:52] Speaker 1: I would call kind of constructive heat because it led
[39:56] Speaker 1: to good things. It led to a kind of wake
[39:59] Speaker 1: up call within within h L and a kind of
[40:02] Speaker 1: uh resolution within the Indian Air Force that look, this
[40:05] Speaker 1: is not gonna take us anyway. Ultimately, we are stuck together.
[40:08] Speaker 1: We've got to make this work. We do not have
[40:10] Speaker 1: the luxury of uh, you know, spending endless presentations and
[40:14] Speaker 1: meetings finding fault and finger pointing. We've got to find
[40:17] Speaker 1: common ground and figure out you know, a path forward
[40:21] Speaker 1: that uh that that that helps HL meet its targets
[40:25] Speaker 1: for us and more importantly for the Air Force to
[40:28] Speaker 1: get its aircraft on time. And those aircraft need to
[40:30] Speaker 1: be of good quality. It's as simple as that. Uh. Now,
[40:32] Speaker 1: for a long time that didn't really happen. Uh. The
[40:35] Speaker 1: Indian Air Force has had uh you know, quality issues
[40:38] Speaker 1: by from aircraft that have been delivered by AHL. It
[40:42] Speaker 1: has had maintenance issues.
[40:44] Speaker 2: Uh.
[40:44] Speaker 1: There have been delays on various other fronts, like like
[40:47] Speaker 1: with the drove that there's been a kind of uh
[40:50] Speaker 1: resistance to the operator feedback in terms of, you know, hey,
[40:55] Speaker 1: there's something wrong with this aircraft, you need to look
[40:57] Speaker 1: into it. Again, I'm simplifying, but there was this kind
[40:59] Speaker 1: of for reluctance to take it at face value and
[41:03] Speaker 1: give it the due attention that it deserved. So all
[41:06] Speaker 1: of these have been bug bears with the Air Force
[41:08] Speaker 1: and the other operators of HL aircraft, which has led
[41:12] Speaker 1: to which has led to occasions when chiefs and you know,
[41:18] Speaker 1: senior officers have lashed out. Sometimes it's happened in public,
[41:22] Speaker 1: sometimes at press conferences. You've seen you know, air chiefs
[41:26] Speaker 1: saying we've told HL we don't want this aircraft and
[41:28] Speaker 1: they're still building it. Famously, with the HTT forty trainer,
[41:32] Speaker 1: you had Air Chief Marshall Brown saying literally telling HL
[41:36] Speaker 1: at an Aero India press conference, We've told HL we
[41:39] Speaker 1: don't want this aircraft, but they're still building it. It
[41:42] Speaker 1: was shocking, but it was representative of how sort of
[41:47] Speaker 1: uneasy the relationship was between the Air Force and HL
[41:50] Speaker 1: that an air chief could say something like this in
[41:52] Speaker 1: public at a press conference, So you can imagine what
[41:55] Speaker 1: things are being said behind closed doors between officers of
[41:58] Speaker 1: both sides, right, So the inferences are very clear. But
[42:02] Speaker 1: but that is nothing to be so alarmed about because
[42:05] Speaker 1: ultimately it's a relationship and humans were dealing with these
[42:09] Speaker 1: enormously complicated projects. But but things have improved dramatically, is
[42:13] Speaker 1: what I can say. Because HL, you know, I'm not
[42:18] Speaker 1: quite clear what the tipping point may have been. It
[42:21] Speaker 1: may have been the realization that it no longer is
[42:24] Speaker 1: going to enjoy that monopoly. They may have, you know,
[42:26] Speaker 1: smartly foreseen that the winds are shifting, the private sector
[42:30] Speaker 1: is coming in a big way, and therefore HL sort
[42:33] Speaker 1: of affected a generational cultural change within the organization that
[42:37] Speaker 1: was a more responsive to the customer be It put
[42:41] Speaker 1: a lot of blood and energy into innovation, which is
[42:44] Speaker 1: which is why you see them innovating in terms of
[42:48] Speaker 1: unmanned air systems now in a big way. They have uh,
[42:53] Speaker 1: you know, projects to produce medium role medium lift helicopters
[42:57] Speaker 1: as well the IMRG.
[42:58] Speaker 4: Uh.
[42:59] Speaker 1: They've got very various other things going on where they
[43:01] Speaker 1: believe that they would like to not just meet the
[43:04] Speaker 1: Air Force and other customers requirements, but kind of delight
[43:08] Speaker 1: them with new products and delight them with new capabilities. Uh,
[43:12] Speaker 1: and uh, it's going to take a long time because
[43:15] Speaker 1: because AHL makes a lot of money, but a lot
[43:18] Speaker 1: of that money is going is going to be going
[43:20] Speaker 1: into manufacture of these aircraft. And right now it has
[43:24] Speaker 1: once again hit a bit of a troubled patch because, uh,
[43:27] Speaker 1: you've got that they just mark one A aircraft which
[43:30] Speaker 1: was supposed to which should have been sort of swooping
[43:33] Speaker 1: into service by now, are all stuck because our engines
[43:36] Speaker 1: are not coming on time from the United States. And
[43:38] Speaker 1: we've spoken about this across a few episodes, so I
[43:40] Speaker 1: won't repeat myself on that aspect, but there are some
[43:43] Speaker 1: there are some HL specific issues which I think the
[43:46] Speaker 1: Air Force also sees as being responsible for these delays.
[43:50] Speaker 1: I don't know what those delays are or hl's part,
[43:53] Speaker 1: but there are some HL related issues apparently also that
[43:56] Speaker 1: the Air Force sees as being responsible for the delays
[43:59] Speaker 1: in the tages Mark one A deliveries. Now you have
[44:03] Speaker 1: potentially you have eighty three on order ninety seven more
[44:06] Speaker 1: in the pipeline, which is about one hundred and eighty
[44:08] Speaker 1: aircraft in total, and not a single one has been
[44:11] Speaker 1: delivered to the Air Force. And these are aircraft that
[44:13] Speaker 1: are desperately needed for your numbers one at aircraft, So
[44:16] Speaker 1: where are those numbers going to come from? The next
[44:19] Speaker 1: challenge now is a litmus test for HL. The HL
[44:25] Speaker 1: is now sitting in a position where it can kind
[44:27] Speaker 1: of fob off the delays in the theages mark one
[44:30] Speaker 1: A reasonably so by saying, hey, this is not our fault.
[44:33] Speaker 1: The engines have not come, so don't look at us.
[44:36] Speaker 1: But once those engines start coming, HL bloody well produced
[44:40] Speaker 1: those aircraft at a rate that it has promised, not
[44:44] Speaker 1: six aircraft per year the air Force wants them at
[44:46] Speaker 1: leg I think I think it's eighteen or twenty four
[44:49] Speaker 1: aircraft per year? Is the annual rate that the aircraft
[44:52] Speaker 1: the air Force wants. By what year the HL will
[44:56] Speaker 1: be able to meet that production rate of aircraft annually
[44:59] Speaker 1: is is not clear. HL has a date, but it
[45:03] Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be moving in that direction just yet.
[45:06] Speaker 1: There's no clarity whether that will happen. So if those
[45:09] Speaker 1: things don't get met, if those timelines and production rates
[45:13] Speaker 1: of the they just mark one A are not met
[45:16] Speaker 1: on time, it's going to spoil people's day at HL.
[45:20] Speaker 1: It's not going to be a pretty day in the office.
[45:22] Speaker 1: The Air Force is not going to be happy. You've
[45:24] Speaker 1: seen the Air Force Chief already not in a very
[45:27] Speaker 1: good move when it comes to Adminerabarbara uh. And therefore,
[45:30] Speaker 1: I think all of hl's energy and this is not
[45:33] Speaker 1: this is not what I'm saying, is not something that
[45:35] Speaker 1: HL doesn't know. They well know about it. All of
[45:37] Speaker 1: their corporate and managerial energy will be focused, I imagine
[45:42] Speaker 1: now on making sure that they don't screw up the
[45:44] Speaker 1: the just mark one a once the wheels get turning
[45:47] Speaker 1: and the engines arrive.
[45:48] Speaker 3: Ye, right, So yeah, I did want to talk about.
[45:52] Speaker 2: What the Air Force Chief had to say Air Chief
[45:54] Speaker 2: Marshalling recently, and.
[45:58] Speaker 1: I've pulled up his quote as well for my answer.
[46:00] Speaker 3: Yes, very very interesting quotes.
[46:03] Speaker 2: The thees one he knew like it was like a
[46:05] Speaker 2: either the quote of theis by the way, it was
[46:07] Speaker 2: like a Shivarroo quote. I think you know that's something
[46:09] Speaker 2: you could easily have said on one of our episodes
[46:11] Speaker 2: when he talked about not tagers should be seen from
[46:13] Speaker 2: ninety eighty four onwards. The aircraft was conceived, then it
[46:17] Speaker 2: first flew in two thousand and one, which is seventeen
[46:19] Speaker 2: years later. Indexing started. Now after another fifteen years. Today
[46:22] Speaker 2: we're in two two four and I still do not
[46:24] Speaker 2: have the first for aircraft. I think HI meant all
[46:28] Speaker 2: the first forty aircraft.
[46:30] Speaker 1: He also spoke about.
[46:31] Speaker 2: How technology delayed is trinology denied. The most important quote
[46:34] Speaker 2: for me, I think though, was I'm paraphrasing him though
[46:37] Speaker 2: right now, where he basically said that the fear of
[46:42] Speaker 2: losing orders is something that should be there in the
[46:44] Speaker 2: ecosystem when it comes to deliveries for military aviation. So
[46:48] Speaker 2: I want your your personal takeaways from what he said
[46:51] Speaker 2: at this lecture and also your assessment of what and
[46:56] Speaker 2: how would the.
[46:57] Speaker 3: HL be reading this.
[46:59] Speaker 1: So to add to the wonderful quote, which I thank
[47:03] Speaker 1: you for thinking that, I would say the same thing
[47:05] Speaker 1: as the Air chief. I don't think he'll be very
[47:07] Speaker 1: pleased with that, but nevertheless, so this is a report
[47:10] Speaker 1: on what he said which the Indian Air Force Chief said,
[47:13] Speaker 1: R and D loses its relevance in case it is
[47:16] Speaker 1: not able to meet timelines. Technology delayed is technology denied.
[47:21] Speaker 1: Brilliant quote. I wish you'd attributed that to me. But
[47:24] Speaker 1: there has to be an increased aptitude for acceptance of
[47:27] Speaker 1: risks involved and failures in R and D arthmannir Berta
[47:31] Speaker 1: will come at a cost, and we should accept it.
[47:34] Speaker 1: We may have to spend more and buy at a
[47:36] Speaker 1: higher rate if required. Amortizing of the R and D
[47:39] Speaker 1: part and limited number will push the cost up, but
[47:42] Speaker 1: will give the much needed self reliance. These are golden
[47:46] Speaker 1: words and brave words I should say from an air
[47:50] Speaker 1: Force chief to you know, to sort of call out
[47:53] Speaker 1: the kind of self important bullshit that pervades, you know,
[47:58] Speaker 1: the culture of arthmanner. Barbara. You know, you can't wrap
[48:01] Speaker 1: yourself in the tricolor and say this is the elixir
[48:05] Speaker 1: and solution for everything, because ultimately it's the pilot on
[48:08] Speaker 1: the ground who has to fly the damplane. Okay, you
[48:11] Speaker 1: can talk about self reliance all you want, but if
[48:14] Speaker 1: that focus on self reliance, which by itself per se
[48:18] Speaker 1: is is the only way forward. We cannot depend on imports.
[48:22] Speaker 1: We have to be reliant on self, on our own stuff,
[48:25] Speaker 1: homegown projects. But if we allow them to flounder without accountability,
[48:30] Speaker 1: then we are painting ourselves into a very dangerous corner.
[48:34] Speaker 1: Look at the line where he says technology delayed is
[48:37] Speaker 1: technology denied? Uh? I'm kind of speechless because you know
[48:41] Speaker 1: he's taken the example of the the Just Mark one. Yes,
[48:44] Speaker 1: you know, he's just reminded all of us that while
[48:48] Speaker 1: we episode after episode talk about the just Mark one
[48:51] Speaker 1: A the improved they just which is stuck because engines
[48:56] Speaker 1: are not coming from the United States, He's just reminded
[48:59] Speaker 1: us that the first forty they Just Mark ones, all
[49:02] Speaker 1: of them haven't arrived yet, which is true because there
[49:04] Speaker 1: are trainers that haven't been inducted yet. So the two
[49:07] Speaker 1: squadrons that operate the Theages in Coimbator in Zulu in
[49:11] Speaker 1: Koimbator still haven't got all of their aircraft intended aircraft,
[49:14] Speaker 1: So the forty aircraft still haven't arrived for various reasons.
[49:19] Speaker 1: You know this will require another episode. But all I'm
[49:24] Speaker 1: saying is just I sound frustrated when I'm saying, imagine
[49:29] Speaker 1: a man who is now the Air Force Chief, who
[49:32] Speaker 1: has spent more than three decades in the Air Force,
[49:36] Speaker 1: seen every step of what he is describing. A man
[49:39] Speaker 1: who's a fighter pilot, by the way, and who's flown
[49:41] Speaker 1: the Theages many many times, and who is a very
[49:44] Speaker 1: strong proponent of homegrown fighters, loves the Theages, speaks very
[49:48] Speaker 1: highly of it, imagine how much more frustration is there
[49:51] Speaker 1: in his words when he says something like this, I've
[49:54] Speaker 1: got no skin in the game. If the theages doesn't
[49:56] Speaker 1: come on time, it's not going to change life in
[50:01] Speaker 1: any uh you know, substantive way. But if the just
[50:04] Speaker 1: doesn't come on time, Air Chief Marshall ap saying, will
[50:07] Speaker 1: be spending sleepless nights. So when he says technology delayed
[50:10] Speaker 1: is technology denied? He is not bullshitting, He's not pissing around.
[50:14] Speaker 1: He's he's saying, this is my job, This is literally
[50:17] Speaker 1: my job to make sure that technology is not denied
[50:21] Speaker 1: to my air warriors. What else am I going to
[50:23] Speaker 1: fight with and for a for a for a project
[50:26] Speaker 1: like Look, the thegas has been kicked around and bashed around,
[50:30] Speaker 1: sometimes unreasonably, sometimes unnecessarily for for for many many years now,
[50:35] Speaker 1: and I will freely admit that I've i have played
[50:38] Speaker 1: a part in that as well. I've i have said,
[50:40] Speaker 1: you know, unkind things about the theges without fully appreciating, uh,
[50:44] Speaker 1: you know what a difficult exercise and difficult enterprise, you know,
[50:48] Speaker 1: developing a fighter aircraft is. But the huge number of
[50:52] Speaker 1: uh time considerations and concessions cost considerations and concessions that
[50:59] Speaker 1: have been provided the project mean that by now we
[51:02] Speaker 1: should have been swimming along nicely with this project. Sure
[51:06] Speaker 1: you can now point at the US and say that
[51:08] Speaker 1: was not in our control. Those supply chain issues that
[51:11] Speaker 1: we didn't, you know, delay the engines. You can say
[51:14] Speaker 1: what you want, but we don't have the damn fighters.
[51:16] Speaker 1: That is the agony in the air chiefs voice. He's saying, Boss,
[51:19] Speaker 1: I want the fighters. I want the fighters. You know,
[51:22] Speaker 1: you started developing these in the eighties and I don't
[51:25] Speaker 1: even have my first forty fighters. Just imagine how he feels,
[51:29] Speaker 1: you know, when I can feel my blood getting warm. Right.
[51:33] Speaker 1: So the point I'm making is his when he says
[51:37] Speaker 1: technology delays, technology denied, he's basically saying, look, I'm all
[51:41] Speaker 1: for self alliance because I know that self aliance is
[51:44] Speaker 1: the only way forward. We don't have the money to
[51:46] Speaker 1: be an important focused country. Look at China. He spoke
[51:49] Speaker 1: about the Chinese so called six generation jets. Now, we're
[51:53] Speaker 1: very small disclaimer that are very credible air power experts
[51:56] Speaker 1: who say, yeah, don't go gaga over the Chinese jets.
[51:59] Speaker 1: We don't know what they can do, what they can't
[52:00] Speaker 1: do but I think there is a kind of unanimity,
[52:03] Speaker 1: unanimous belief that they are demonstrating capabilities for which we
[52:08] Speaker 1: don't have any answer right now, AMCA. Nobody knows where
[52:10] Speaker 1: it's when it's going to come. So from that respect,
[52:14] Speaker 1: there is reason for alarm. People have been laughing, saying
[52:17] Speaker 1: self flagellation, Ora, just because China has demonstrated to so
[52:21] Speaker 1: called six generation fighters. Well, they already have a fifth
[52:24] Speaker 1: generation fighter and another one coming, and they've got these
[52:26] Speaker 1: two aircraft being demonstrated. And here you have the air
[52:29] Speaker 1: Force chief of the country that borders China, that is
[52:32] Speaker 1: in a live combat situation with China, saying I can't
[52:36] Speaker 1: even get my basic fourth generation fighter cup Pella order completed.
[52:41] Speaker 1: It is the word hasn't been invented to describe the
[52:45] Speaker 1: pitiful state of the emotion that the air chief is
[52:49] Speaker 1: trying to convey. And he has to be ramrod perfect
[52:53] Speaker 1: about it, because, let's make no mistake, the Indian Air
[52:55] Speaker 1: Force will fight with what it has. The Indian Air
[52:57] Speaker 1: Force makes all manner of air power arrangements for anything
[53:03] Speaker 1: that is thrown at it. The Indian Air Force has
[53:05] Speaker 1: technologies beyond what you and I can see here, And
[53:09] Speaker 1: it isn't just about unka aircraft versus our aircraft. War
[53:12] Speaker 1: is not like that the air Force. It's not like
[53:13] Speaker 1: the air Force has been caught off guard suddenly by this.
[53:16] Speaker 1: They know what's going on. The agony is not in like,
[53:18] Speaker 1: oh my god, look what China has and we have nothing.
[53:20] Speaker 1: It's not that it's like where is our stuff? Where
[53:23] Speaker 1: is our stuff? Why are we being tied down to
[53:26] Speaker 1: committing to stuff which we cannot rely on arriving in
[53:30] Speaker 1: a timely manner. And he's even bravely suggested, you know,
[53:34] Speaker 1: saying it might cost more to order a fewer numbers,
[53:37] Speaker 1: but let's do it. That. In my view, that's this
[53:40] Speaker 1: man is a revolutionary. He's a revolutionary because he's going
[53:43] Speaker 1: to make a lot of enemies in the procurement system.
[53:46] Speaker 1: But that is the pain of a warrior, I would say,
[53:49] Speaker 1: because it's his neck on the line. Yeah, if an
[53:51] Speaker 1: air war begins tomorrow, it's his neck on the line.
[53:54] Speaker 1: Where is he going to show those numbers? And I
[53:56] Speaker 1: think that's what he's talking about. And I will only
[53:59] Speaker 1: end saying I hope that this uh, you know, I'm
[54:03] Speaker 1: saying pain and agony and frustration, but if you look
[54:05] Speaker 1: at the speech, edgvapcing is a very formal, very so
[54:10] Speaker 1: you know, delivered a you know, very normal kind of style,
[54:12] Speaker 1: and there's no emotion being displayed there. But you know,
[54:16] Speaker 1: that's what the military is. And when they're letting these
[54:19] Speaker 1: things show and when you can interpret those emotions, it's, uh,
[54:24] Speaker 1: this is the real world for them. This is not
[54:26] Speaker 1: a speech at at the Center for Air Power Studies.
[54:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, you know you're right about the code about forty jets,
[54:32] Speaker 2: because in fact, when you were covering it for the website,
[54:35] Speaker 2: I actually had to quickly scramble to a fact check
[54:37] Speaker 2: because I was like, what is he saying? I thought
[54:39] Speaker 2: we had those twenty because we've been saying those and
[54:41] Speaker 2: those Quad and tears have been we're only waiting the.
[54:44] Speaker 3: Mark one eye and thirty two twenty four cast past. Yeah,
[54:48] Speaker 3: I was like, wait, he's right, there's forty fight the jets,
[54:51] Speaker 3: all right?
[54:52] Speaker 1: Has been this episode.
[54:53] Speaker 2: Just a couple of quick points I found that quote.
[54:56] Speaker 2: So he also said that we need to have multiple
[54:58] Speaker 2: sources available so that people are ary of losing their orders,
[55:02] Speaker 2: otherwise things will not change. This is the part I
[55:03] Speaker 2: was talking about earlier when he said people need to
[55:05] Speaker 2: be worried about losing orders, which basically says, hey, if
[55:08] Speaker 2: you can't do it, I'll go there. So, as we
[55:10] Speaker 2: wrap this episode, going back to the topic of discussion HL,
[55:15] Speaker 2: the MRFA is coming up at some point. The deal
[55:17] Speaker 2: will involve more or less sixteen or eighteen being bought
[55:20] Speaker 2: off the shelf and some other one hundred odd being
[55:22] Speaker 2: manufactured in India. Should DHL be really, really, really concerned
[55:27] Speaker 2: that there is quite a big possibility that order might
[55:30] Speaker 2: not come its way.
[55:31] Speaker 1: Most certainly should be worried. Most certainly should be worried.
[55:34] Speaker 1: But HL should actually see it in a much more
[55:37] Speaker 1: positive way because HL has a huge advantage going into
[55:40] Speaker 1: this because HL has the facilities to build aircraft. HL
[55:45] Speaker 1: already has the infrastructure to build fighter aircraft. So going
[55:49] Speaker 1: into what is what could potentially be a kind of
[55:53] Speaker 1: competition between HL and the private sector on who will
[55:55] Speaker 1: build these aircraft, HL has an obvious advantage. HL has
[55:59] Speaker 1: an advantage because it will not need to spend money
[56:01] Speaker 1: in building facilities. It will not need to spend money
[56:03] Speaker 1: in a whole bunch of equipment required to fill to
[56:07] Speaker 1: build fighter aircraft. So HL should should not be worried
[56:10] Speaker 1: at all the worries that it used to have. Though
[56:13] Speaker 1: that ship has sailed now because with the C two
[56:16] Speaker 1: nine to five deal that that Warriki one day somebody
[56:19] Speaker 1: else is going to eat our cake, that that train
[56:22] Speaker 1: has left the station. Now that fear is real. It's
[56:24] Speaker 1: sitting in their living room now that somebody is here
[56:27] Speaker 1: to eat your food. Now you have to say, but
[56:29] Speaker 1: I don't care. I have the facilities to build build
[56:31] Speaker 1: these fighters much better than you, so I have no
[56:33] Speaker 1: reason to be worried. So they need to compete in
[56:35] Speaker 1: a professional corporate manner, acknowledging that this is a contest,
[56:40] Speaker 1: not showing entitlement. Even with the C two ninety five.
[56:43] Speaker 1: The lobbying that HL did with the mod was, why
[56:46] Speaker 1: the hell do you want to do this? We will
[56:48] Speaker 1: give you an upgraded Avro, We will make modifications to
[56:52] Speaker 1: the Avro and give you Avro. We will upgrade the Avros,
[56:54] Speaker 1: you know, And that kind of rubbish was going on.
[56:56] Speaker 1: So that entitlement culture that needs to go. HL needs
[57:00] Speaker 1: to realize, and it has realized. I'll be fair with
[57:03] Speaker 1: HL because it's a it's it's a company which, when
[57:06] Speaker 1: push comes to shove can most definitely competently compete with
[57:10] Speaker 1: the private sector. But but I will only end by saying, uh,
[57:14] Speaker 1: they've because because you you quoted the air chief as
[57:17] Speaker 1: saying that, you know, people should realize that they can
[57:19] Speaker 1: lose orders if there is competition. It's it's like the
[57:23] Speaker 1: structure that's there. In the United States, they don't. They
[57:26] Speaker 1: have a you know, an agency called DARTPAK which basically
[57:29] Speaker 1: commissions a capability project saying, you know, we want a
[57:32] Speaker 1: next generation bomber, and uh, we are inviting bids from
[57:36] Speaker 1: the private sector. So the private sector will form little
[57:38] Speaker 1: consortiums between companies, you know, Northrop, Government, Boeing, UH, Lockheed, Martin,
[57:43] Speaker 1: and UH and some other company will tie up and
[57:46] Speaker 1: bids will come in and depending on those bids, various
[57:49] Speaker 1: levels of uh you know, testing will take place, field
[57:51] Speaker 1: evaluations will take place, and then finally one company or
[57:55] Speaker 1: one group cup bid will win, and then government money
[57:57] Speaker 1: flows into that consortium and they build the craft and
[58:00] Speaker 1: give it. The government doesn't even get into the the
[58:03] Speaker 1: R and D. They are of course present, ever present
[58:05] Speaker 1: program managers who are there to see what is happening,
[58:08] Speaker 1: make sure that the companies are spending the money correctly.
[58:12] Speaker 1: They're not cheating. They are building the capability in a
[58:14] Speaker 1: deliverable fashion. You know. That is a kind of utopian
[58:20] Speaker 1: format or structure that I don't think India will ever
[58:22] Speaker 1: be able to achieve because we don't have a fully
[58:24] Speaker 1: mature defense private private private sector yet. But that has
[58:29] Speaker 1: worked very well for the United States and allowed them
[58:32] Speaker 1: to remove government from the R and D of defense.
[58:35] Speaker 1: Of course they do R and D, but the the
[58:38] Speaker 1: R and D that the US government doesn't defense is
[58:41] Speaker 1: very very advanced futuristic cyber space, that kind of thing.
[58:46] Speaker 1: Not not building rifles, you know, not building the wheels
[58:50] Speaker 1: of helicopters, you know, bullshit like that. They're doing real
[58:54] Speaker 1: futuristic stuff. And I think that's ultimately what the DRDO
[58:57] Speaker 1: needs to move towards as well. You know, a company
[59:00] Speaker 1: organizations like the DAD should work towards not building drones
[59:04] Speaker 1: that ID students are building, you know, or building you know,
[59:08] Speaker 1: ground robots that that mechanical engineers can put together in
[59:13] Speaker 1: six months. But to do real cutting edge futuristic you know,
[59:18] Speaker 1: weapons research, direct energy hypersonic vehicles, uh, you know that
[59:22] Speaker 1: kind of thing.
[59:23] Speaker 3: Uh.
[59:23] Speaker 1: And until that happens, it's just going to be this
[59:25] Speaker 1: kind of a you know hamster race.
[59:27] Speaker 2: Yeah right. One last quick point, nothing to do with
[59:31] Speaker 2: the discussion per se, but on Air Chief Marshal apicing
[59:35] Speaker 2: the person because it just so happens that a few
[59:38] Speaker 2: months ago, six seven months ago, when this was before
[59:41] Speaker 2: he took the office of Air Force Chief, he was
[59:43] Speaker 2: in Air Marshall back then he had said those words
[59:46] Speaker 2: which we've talked about in the previous episode, where he
[59:48] Speaker 2: said making in deck cannot come at the cost of
[59:50] Speaker 2: you know, nation's defense. In the episode we talked about,
[59:52] Speaker 2: we did mention that this is quite These are quite
[59:55] Speaker 2: some strong words coming from a senior Air Force officer
[59:57] Speaker 2: back then now is in the offices Air Force Chief,
[1:00:00] Speaker 2: and he's used even stronger words. And you've given a
[1:00:03] Speaker 2: nice passionate description of what you feel about it. Is
[1:00:07] Speaker 2: it just a personality quirk or is or has that
[1:00:10] Speaker 2: really been a tipping point within the Air Force and
[1:00:12] Speaker 2: there is really frustration boiling one.
[1:00:14] Speaker 1: I think the I think that they just mark one a.
[1:00:17] Speaker 1: The punga that's going on with the the just mark
[1:00:20] Speaker 1: one a is a tipping point because because look, the
[1:00:24] Speaker 1: they just mark one a, like I said, is not
[1:00:27] Speaker 1: quite the the just the Air Force wanted. So look
[1:00:29] Speaker 1: at it from the Air Force's perspective, the Mark one
[1:00:33] Speaker 1: did not meet all the requirements of the Air Force,
[1:00:36] Speaker 1: so the Air Force agreed to a certain limited number
[1:00:39] Speaker 1: of improvements for a improved version called the Just Mark
[1:00:43] Speaker 1: one A, which still don't completely meet the Air Force's requirements.
[1:00:47] Speaker 1: But the Air Force was persuaded to agree to committing
[1:00:50] Speaker 1: to ordering that in large numbers, which they did eighty
[1:00:53] Speaker 1: three first, ninety seven more in the pipeline almost too
[1:00:55] Speaker 1: wanted aircraft is a sizeable commitment by any stretch of imagination. Now,
[1:01:00] Speaker 1: and even that is not happening on time, you know,
[1:01:02] Speaker 1: concession like a concession lak a Wobin granted not not
[1:01:07] Speaker 1: for Hl's fault, but for various other reasons. And like
[1:01:09] Speaker 1: I said, there are some internal issues also. The frustration
[1:01:13] Speaker 1: levels must be very very high. And you know, I'm
[1:01:15] Speaker 1: using the word frustration. It's not so emotional in the
[1:01:19] Speaker 1: Air Force. They they work in a very very you know,
[1:01:22] Speaker 1: robust kind of fail safe way. It's not like if
[1:01:25] Speaker 1: one thing doesn't happen, they don't have a backup. They
[1:01:27] Speaker 1: always have a backup. Airpower is a thing where things
[1:01:30] Speaker 1: can go wrong on a dime. So there are always
[1:01:33] Speaker 1: backup plans, plan bes et cetera for this kind of thing.
[1:01:35] Speaker 1: But I'm just saying that when you've committed to such
[1:01:37] Speaker 1: a large program and it was supposed to be the
[1:01:40] Speaker 1: kind of proof that the turning point has happened, as
[1:01:44] Speaker 1: far as a homegrown project is concerned, it's going to
[1:01:46] Speaker 1: happen on time. It's going to deliver on time. You know,
[1:01:48] Speaker 1: we're happy with the jet, We've ticked all the boxes now,
[1:01:51] Speaker 1: and the damn thing still doesn't arrive to help you
[1:01:53] Speaker 1: stave off your depleting squadron strength numbers. That's that's a
[1:01:57] Speaker 1: that's a blow. That's just it's just a party poop
[1:02:00] Speaker 1: of epic proportions. And I think that has a lot
[1:02:03] Speaker 1: to do with the with the with the frustration right.
[1:02:06] Speaker 3: Now, right cool.
[1:02:07] Speaker 2: I think we'll end it there, and it just so
[1:02:09] Speaker 2: happens that, you know, Aero India is just a month
[1:02:12] Speaker 2: and a half away, by the way, uh So I hope, h.
[1:02:15] Speaker 1: L are we going there to do a stretch episode.
[1:02:18] Speaker 1: I think we should do that.
[1:02:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I hope one day, you know,
[1:02:22] Speaker 2: hl is'll be able to turn it around so much
[1:02:24] Speaker 2: that it is the headliner at these air shows, and
[1:02:27] Speaker 2: you don't really have people coming in from the country
[1:02:29] Speaker 2: to kind of grab all the.
[1:02:31] Speaker 1: Attention over there. They can be, they can be for sure.
[1:02:34] Speaker 1: Yeah right, So let's end it there.
[1:02:35] Speaker 2: Thanks Shift, great chat, Happy new year once again, first
[1:02:39] Speaker 2: episode of the year, first one year off in our
[1:02:42] Speaker 2: defense season two.
[1:02:43] Speaker 3: Uh, and I hope you.
[1:02:45] Speaker 2: Didn't talk about the same old ship, but I did
[1:02:47] Speaker 2: think but I think we talked about this one continuing
[1:02:50] Speaker 2: theme of discussion.
[1:02:51] Speaker 3: I think that will keep propping up on season two
[1:02:53] Speaker 3: as we as.
[1:02:53] Speaker 1: We either we're going to be blacklisted by the air
[1:02:55] Speaker 1: first or we're gonna have a red carpet outside Bible.
[1:02:57] Speaker 3: And yes, let's see what happens in that.
[1:03:01] Speaker 2: Great So thanks Shift, and thanks for the final time
[1:03:04] Speaker 2: unfortunately to our producer, and we will definitely miss you,
[1:03:07] Speaker 2: and I hope that you miss us through thanks to
[1:03:09] Speaker 2: our listeners and viewers. That's it for this week's Defense.
[1:03:12] Speaker 2: Does for more tune in next week. Will then stay
[1:03:14] Speaker 2: safe and not toss any bounties to the passport.

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