# Can a new committee solve Indian Air Force's fighter jet shortage problems? | In Our Defence, S02, Ep 51

An episode of [In Our Defence](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1617244439), 26 Dec 2024, 52 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/63476623/26_dec_24_iod_26_dec_128.mp3

A video showcasing a new Chinese stealth fighter jet, suspected to be a 6th-generation machine, has taken social media by storm. The timing couldn’t be more striking. As this footage goes viral, India grapples with a stark contrast. The country has yet to field a stealth fighter jet, and the Defence Ministry has just formed a high-level committee to address critical gaps, including a severe shortage of fighter jets, weapons, and equipment, in the Indian Air Force’s arsenal, TOI reported. The video went viral shortly after this episode’s recording. The committee, featuring DRDO chief Samir V Kamat, defence production secretary Sanjeev Kumar, and IAF deputy chief Air Marshal Tejinder Singh, aims to chart a path forward. But is this the game-changer the IAF desperately needs? Can the committee offer immediate solutions to the fighter jet shortage? Will it deliver a long-term roadmap for the IAF’s capability development, or is this another bureaucratic exercise with no tangible outcomes? With just 36 Rafale jets inducted so far and a 110-jet acquisition proposal still unresolved, how will the IAF bridge its glaring “capability voids”? And what role will indigenous production play in addressing these gaps? Host Dev Goswami and defence expert Shiv Aroor address these pressing questions. Tune in! Produced by Anna Priyadarshini Sound mix by Nitin Rawat

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: This is India Today podcasts. Frankly, I'm a little alarmed
[0:05] Speaker 1: by the formation of a committee. You know, as a country,
[0:09] Speaker 1: we love forming committees for every single thing. You know,
[0:11] Speaker 1: if there's a problem, the best way to kick a
[0:13] Speaker 1: problem down the road is to say committee banading. I'm
[0:17] Speaker 1: sure I'll get a lot of blowback from people in
[0:19] Speaker 1: the MD or the Air Force saying, you know you're
[0:20] Speaker 1: a civilian. You know you don't have these pressures on
[0:23] Speaker 1: your head. You know a committee has this, this, this,
[0:25] Speaker 1: this benefit. My answer to that again would be sure,
[0:28] Speaker 1: I'm a civilian and I certainly don't have those pressures.
[0:31] Speaker 1: But as a taxpayer, I think it is yours in
[0:33] Speaker 1: my Dave, are our right to usk in the absence
[0:36] Speaker 1: of this committee? Are you honestly telling me that the
[0:39] Speaker 1: Ministry of Defense in the Air Force did not have
[0:41] Speaker 1: a handle on these priorities. When you suddenly signal that
[0:44] Speaker 1: this requires an exclusive committee, the signal I'm getting is shit.
[0:49] Speaker 1: The problem is worse than I thought it was. MOD
[0:52] Speaker 1: knows what the shortfalls are. Air Force knows what the
[0:54] Speaker 1: MD can and cannot provide. Files are constantly moving between
[0:57] Speaker 1: MD and Air Force headquarters, which are literally about eight
[1:00] Speaker 1: hundred meters apart South Block and value by on eight
[1:03] Speaker 1: hundred meters apart. How difficult can it be for files
[1:05] Speaker 1: to move between the two? So what is this committee?
[1:07] Speaker 1: It's almost like I'm a little bewildered.
[1:10] Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Another Defense, a weekly podcast on
[1:13] Speaker 2: all things well defense, where I They've go Swami, your host,
[1:18] Speaker 2: along with senior journalist Shivarur, break down the world of
[1:21] Speaker 2: conflicts that range from the subtle to the brute. We
[1:25] Speaker 2: bring you nuances and perspectives that will inform and at
[1:28] Speaker 2: times provoke. This is In Our Defense. Hello and welcome.
[1:36] Speaker 2: This is the fifty first episode of In Our Defense
[1:39] Speaker 2: and it's the last week of the year. H shift,
[1:42] Speaker 2: How are you hi?
[1:43] Speaker 1: They've all good, We've you know. We we missed a
[1:47] Speaker 1: week last week because of my travels. I was away
[1:50] Speaker 1: in the Andermans, and I'm very happy to note that
[1:53] Speaker 1: our listeners have been tracking my movements very closely. I've
[1:55] Speaker 1: been getting comments through the entire time that I was there,
[1:59] Speaker 1: saying that, you know, if you're there, why can't you
[2:01] Speaker 1: still do an episode of In Our Defense? So thank
[2:04] Speaker 1: you to all of our listeners and viewers for suggesting
[2:06] Speaker 1: that we you know, we would have if I could,
[2:09] Speaker 1: but the thing is, there was just too much going on.
[2:11] Speaker 1: I was there for the you know, for the twentieth
[2:14] Speaker 1: anniversary event of the tsunami today. In fact, they've happens
[2:18] Speaker 1: to be the twentieth anniversary on this day. Twenty years
[2:21] Speaker 1: ago is when the you know, the biggest natural disaster
[2:25] Speaker 1: to hit the Indian Ocean happened. I was a young reporter.
[2:28] Speaker 1: I was twenty four years old at that time, and
[2:31] Speaker 1: that was my first first big outstation coverage. So I
[2:35] Speaker 1: was on the islands at the end of December to
[2:37] Speaker 1: cover the aftermath of the tsunami. And so twenty years later,
[2:41] Speaker 1: I was invited back to visit Karni Kobar, the island
[2:44] Speaker 1: you know, where a lot of military personnel perished along
[2:46] Speaker 1: with their families. The air for station there very very
[2:52] Speaker 1: very illuminating experience, also very heartbreaking because you know, the
[2:55] Speaker 1: scars of what happened twenty years ago are of course
[2:58] Speaker 1: still there. But I think it was also an event
[3:01] Speaker 1: where the where the Indian military sort of you know,
[3:06] Speaker 1: came into its own in terms of humanitarian relief. It
[3:09] Speaker 1: was a it was a disaster of truly catastrophic epic
[3:13] Speaker 1: catastrophic proportions, you know, mass damage, huge casualties, enormous displacement
[3:21] Speaker 1: of a kind never even never even planned for before.
[3:24] Speaker 1: And I think I think it was a kind of
[3:26] Speaker 1: a landmark movement for the Indian military. There's a pre
[3:29] Speaker 1: tsunami Indian military and there's a post tsunami Indian military,
[3:32] Speaker 1: and I think I've been very privileged to see them both.
[3:34] Speaker 1: So going back up to twenty years was a That's
[3:37] Speaker 1: what my week was about.
[3:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can imagine I was barely into my
[3:41] Speaker 2: teens back then, so I don't really have very strong
[3:43] Speaker 2: memories from back back then. But remember those headlines, those
[3:47] Speaker 2: photos especially that really showed that devastation that happened. And
[3:52] Speaker 2: you're right by the way a butt of fans. In fact,
[3:54] Speaker 2: I happened to meet one of the fans the other
[3:56] Speaker 2: night when I was out for dinner somewhere and just
[3:58] Speaker 2: I was exiting the restaurant, he just walked up to
[4:00] Speaker 2: me and said, Hey, I'm a big fan of a
[4:02] Speaker 2: podcast and you know you guy should just keep doing
[4:04] Speaker 2: what you guys are doing, and convinced to share as well,
[4:06] Speaker 2: and I said I will do. His name is Vishnu
[4:09] Speaker 2: so a shout out to him. That's great, that's so vish.
[4:11] Speaker 2: Thanks and keep listening to us. And like I told
[4:13] Speaker 2: you the other night, whenever you have comments for us,
[4:16] Speaker 2: please do leave us you know, whatever you want us
[4:18] Speaker 2: to talk about. Uh. So, what will we talk about
[4:22] Speaker 2: this week? We will talk about the Indian Air Force.
[4:25] Speaker 2: Uh why because of a report in Times of India
[4:28] Speaker 2: but as a bandit where he reported that a committee
[4:31] Speaker 2: is going to be set up headed by the Defense Secretary.
[4:35] Speaker 2: There will be the DRDO chief on it, I'm guessing
[4:37] Speaker 2: the Deputy Chief of the Air Force. No mention of
[4:40] Speaker 2: the Hindustan and not is limited. Very interesting to note
[4:43] Speaker 2: for me at least, and this committee will kind of
[4:47] Speaker 2: do what we are about to do on this episode.
[4:49] Speaker 2: Mota Mota. Look at what's kind of you know, imperiling
[4:53] Speaker 2: the air force, especially with terms of shortages of equipment.
[4:56] Speaker 2: When we say equipment, mostly fighter jets. Uh, there's also
[4:59] Speaker 2: the non fighter fleet. We will spend a bit on
[5:02] Speaker 2: this episode on that as well, but a bit later
[5:04] Speaker 2: we'll focus on the crux of the problem, which is
[5:06] Speaker 2: the fighter jet shortage. Uh. On this On this on
[5:11] Speaker 2: this podcast, we've talked about tages We've talked about MRFA,
[5:14] Speaker 2: You've talked about amkind bits and pieces. But this episode
[5:18] Speaker 2: I think will kind of give us an opportunity to
[5:20] Speaker 2: sort of like, you know, merge all of this together
[5:22] Speaker 2: and talk about the singular issue that is plaguing the
[5:26] Speaker 2: Air Force, the lack of fighter jets. We've done this before,
[5:29] Speaker 2: but let's do the bean count once again, so our
[5:31] Speaker 2: listeners and viewers have some have some context before I'll,
[5:34] Speaker 2: you know, let you expand on this need for this
[5:37] Speaker 2: committee in the first place. Right now, you're at around
[5:39] Speaker 2: thirty odd squadrons of that Sokois resta. You know, your Jaguars,
[5:44] Speaker 2: your manages. You have make twenty nine to make twenty
[5:46] Speaker 2: one the rafels, and that they is that they just
[5:49] Speaker 2: mark one what's in the pipeline, that they just mark
[5:53] Speaker 2: one a which has been delayed. You have placed an
[5:55] Speaker 2: order for eighty three and you are proposing to order
[5:58] Speaker 2: ninety seven more so you're aiming for on one need
[6:00] Speaker 2: one eighty total just I think ten days ago. I
[6:03] Speaker 2: think there was a fresh order around twelve, if I'm
[6:05] Speaker 2: not wrong, Suquois being placed I think to again kind
[6:07] Speaker 2: of meet the short fall. But I think you pointed
[6:09] Speaker 2: out very interestingly in our chat that visare suquoys to
[6:12] Speaker 2: kind of meet the replace that coctially is the cash
[6:15] Speaker 2: ones basically, so not really like you know, to fill
[6:18] Speaker 2: the numbers, then you have to just Mark two, like
[6:20] Speaker 2: we discussed in a previous episode. We don't really know
[6:22] Speaker 2: what's happening with that right now because the Mark one
[6:24] Speaker 2: he has not really seen the light of day. Dum
[6:27] Speaker 2: deliveries the MR it's on paper. Again, we don't know
[6:30] Speaker 2: the shape of what this contract will be to basically
[6:33] Speaker 2: buy foreign fighter jets and buy some of the shelf
[6:36] Speaker 2: and then kind of build the rest of them in India.
[6:39] Speaker 2: The AMCA, the Advanced Multi Combat Aircraft India's aim to
[6:43] Speaker 2: develop its own fifth generation fighter. It's it's a proposal
[6:47] Speaker 2: right now, it's it's an idea that's happening. It will happen,
[6:50] Speaker 2: like we've discussed on that episode as well. So this
[6:53] Speaker 2: is what the Air Force is faced with, UH and
[6:56] Speaker 2: to figure out basically what to do. Is this committee
[6:59] Speaker 2: that's coming in. You would have thought that such a
[7:02] Speaker 2: committee would have already been there. You would have thought
[7:05] Speaker 2: many such discussions would already have happened. So why are
[7:08] Speaker 2: we doing this committee? This is all over again.
[7:09] Speaker 1: Then, you know, I'm going to be very honest, this
[7:12] Speaker 1: is a this is a year end episode. So I
[7:14] Speaker 1: think our viewers or listeners, some of them at least
[7:19] Speaker 1: might have, you know, expected a kind of more buoyant,
[7:23] Speaker 1: you know, more cheerful kind of topic or tonality of
[7:27] Speaker 1: this episode. And I'm sorry to disappoint at least some
[7:30] Speaker 1: of them, but this is not going to be a
[7:33] Speaker 1: you know, an episode where we're going to pull our punches,
[7:35] Speaker 1: which they and I anyway never do. That's the reason
[7:37] Speaker 1: why you guys watch us. But frankly, I'm a little
[7:41] Speaker 1: alarmed by the formation of a committee. You know, as
[7:44] Speaker 1: a country we are we love forming committees for every
[7:48] Speaker 1: single thing. You know, if there's a problem, the best
[7:50] Speaker 1: way to kick kick a problem down the road is
[7:53] Speaker 1: to say committee banading and let them let them deliberate
[7:57] Speaker 1: on it. We've seen that largely in our in a
[8:00] Speaker 1: in a in the in the in the political in
[8:02] Speaker 1: the political sphere of public life. But there is no
[8:07] Speaker 1: shortage of that in the Ministry of Defense, uh and
[8:10] Speaker 1: in the military. And this this we should say is
[8:13] Speaker 1: a is a is a mod committee that has been
[8:17] Speaker 1: formed because it is under the chairmanship of the Defense Secretary.
[8:20] Speaker 1: Now as a as a very quick, polite sort of disclaimer,
[8:23] Speaker 1: there is per se nothing wrong with the committee because
[8:26] Speaker 1: the committee at least brings in a degree of structure.
[8:30] Speaker 1: It is basically saying that, okay, hold on, you know,
[8:34] Speaker 1: things are not quite on track and not quite the
[8:37] Speaker 1: way they need to be in terms of the shortfalls
[8:39] Speaker 1: of fighters, helicopters, refuelers, a wax, drones, et cetera, et cetera. Uh,
[8:46] Speaker 1: and it is it is significant enough a problem that
[8:49] Speaker 1: we need to form a high level committee just to
[8:52] Speaker 1: bring all these many troubling strands together so we can
[8:56] Speaker 1: make sense of it and generate some kind of action
[8:59] Speaker 1: plan on how to how to deal with all of
[9:02] Speaker 1: these separate, separate problems. The reason why so so per
[9:06] Speaker 1: se there's nothing wrong with that. It's a good thing.
[9:08] Speaker 1: At least you're recognizing the fact that your forming committee
[9:11] Speaker 1: means a you recognize as a problem. Be you're willing to,
[9:15] Speaker 1: you know, put someone like as senior as the Defense
[9:17] Speaker 1: Secretary in charge of sorting out that problem and see
[9:21] Speaker 1: it shows that you have an action plan, You're doing something.
[9:24] Speaker 1: It shows that you're not allowing these problems to simply drift.
[9:28] Speaker 1: The reason why I that disclaimer aside. Now, the reason
[9:31] Speaker 1: why I feel a little alarmed is don't we already
[9:36] Speaker 1: know what the problems are? Why does this need a committee? Okay,
[9:40] Speaker 1: I'm sure I'll get a lot of blowback from you know,
[9:43] Speaker 1: people in the MD or the Air Force saying, you know,
[9:45] Speaker 1: you're a civilian. You know you don't have these pressures
[9:48] Speaker 1: on your head. You know a committee has this, this, this,
[9:50] Speaker 1: this benefit. You know, it provides clarity, It gives you
[9:53] Speaker 1: an action plan. It, you know, in black and white,
[9:57] Speaker 1: tells you what you can and cannot do. It generates
[10:00] Speaker 1: a priority list. My answer to that again would be sure,
[10:04] Speaker 1: I'm a civilian and I certainly don't have those pressures.
[10:07] Speaker 1: But as a taxpayer, I think it is yours, in
[10:10] Speaker 1: my dave, our right to ask, in the absence of
[10:14] Speaker 1: this committee, are you honestly telling me that the Ministry
[10:17] Speaker 1: of Defense in the Air Force did not have a
[10:20] Speaker 1: handle on these priorities, were not aware of these shortfalls,
[10:24] Speaker 1: did not have an action plan to foresee and address
[10:27] Speaker 1: these short falls, did not have a structured way of
[10:31] Speaker 1: addressing some of these critical shortages within the Air Force,
[10:35] Speaker 1: which are by the way not new. None of these are.
[10:39] Speaker 1: It's not like the Air Force or the mood has
[10:41] Speaker 1: woken up today and said, oh, we don't have you know,
[10:44] Speaker 1: twelve and a half squadrons which we're supposed to have,
[10:47] Speaker 1: or oh wait a minute, it's been fifteen years and
[10:49] Speaker 1: we still haven't added new refuelers to our our fleet.
[10:53] Speaker 1: Or oh my god, we're supposed to have so and
[10:57] Speaker 1: so aircraft but we only have three.
[10:59] Speaker 2: It's not like that.
[11:00] Speaker 1: It's happened for a very long time. So my sense
[11:03] Speaker 1: of alarm and a degree of dismay is over over this,
[11:08] Speaker 1: this kind of feather touch approach, this kind of piecemeal
[11:11] Speaker 1: approach that we see in Indian defense planning over and
[11:16] Speaker 1: over and over again. And my fear is, and I'll
[11:18] Speaker 1: go into this in greater depth as we progress through
[11:21] Speaker 1: this episode, Dave, is that that this particular committee is
[11:26] Speaker 1: looking to sort of sort out just some immediate niggles
[11:31] Speaker 1: right now, you know, do we wait for the tagers,
[11:34] Speaker 1: do we accelerate the MRFA you know, small very kind
[11:38] Speaker 1: of near term quick fixes, so that whoever's in office
[11:43] Speaker 1: right now, we'll say I've done my little bit. Now
[11:46] Speaker 1: the next guy will come and sort out the long
[11:47] Speaker 1: range your long term issues. And that is one of
[11:51] Speaker 1: the reasons why, and we've said this in so many
[11:53] Speaker 1: episodes before, this is one of the reasons why that
[11:55] Speaker 1: there there has never been any kind of successful long
[11:59] Speaker 1: term you know, procurement and modernization planning possible, especially in
[12:05] Speaker 1: the Indian Air Force, because of the number of committees.
[12:08] Speaker 1: You know, I'm simplifying it. It's not only obviously because
[12:10] Speaker 1: of committees, but the fact that nobody has been able
[12:13] Speaker 1: to bite the bullet in some ways and sort of
[12:17] Speaker 1: draw a line and say, look, let's let's take a
[12:20] Speaker 1: moment and create a kind of over arching twenty five
[12:24] Speaker 1: year plan as far as capital acquisitions and modernizations and
[12:28] Speaker 1: upgrades for the air Force are concerned, and then we'll
[12:30] Speaker 1: talk about it. But since that hasn't happened, we are
[12:34] Speaker 1: now on our ear end podcast episode talking about a
[12:38] Speaker 1: damn committee that is going to discuss in a very
[12:41] Speaker 1: intelligent way. Because let's remember we are right now. What
[12:46] Speaker 1: we are doing is talking about the committee. The individuals
[12:49] Speaker 1: who are members of the committee are all fine, highly qualified,
[12:52] Speaker 1: extremely capable, you know, responsible individuals. So let me also
[12:58] Speaker 1: make that disclaimer. This is not about the Deffense Secretary
[13:00] Speaker 1: or the Deputy chief for somebody else. The powers that
[13:03] Speaker 1: we have decided that a committee of this kind needs
[13:05] Speaker 1: to be formed, and they are the people who involved
[13:07] Speaker 1: in this committee. My sense of concern and alarm is
[13:10] Speaker 1: about about the powers that be believing that a committee
[13:15] Speaker 1: is even a step towards some kind of a solution.
[13:19] Speaker 1: You know, the seminars are held, events are held, all
[13:23] Speaker 1: kinds of deliberations are happening on a constant levels. As
[13:27] Speaker 1: a civilian and a public citizen, my question is, where
[13:31] Speaker 1: is the need for a committee when you already have
[13:33] Speaker 1: these structures, You already have the MOD and the Air
[13:36] Speaker 1: Force sorting these things out on a daily basis. When
[13:40] Speaker 1: you suddenly signal that this requires an exclusive committee, the
[13:44] Speaker 1: signal I'm getting is shit, the problem is worse than
[13:48] Speaker 1: I thought it was.
[13:48] Speaker 2: Yes, actually that's.
[13:49] Speaker 1: What I'm thinking. That's what I'm thinking, because otherwise I'm thinking,
[13:52] Speaker 1: Wait a minute. There are communication channels between the MOD
[13:56] Speaker 1: and the Air Force. It ultimately it is the MOOD
[13:58] Speaker 1: that controls the purse strings. MOD knows what the shot
[14:01] Speaker 1: falls are, air Force knows what the AMoD can and
[14:04] Speaker 1: cannot provide. Files are constantly moving between mod and Air
[14:07] Speaker 1: Force headquarters, which are literally about eight hundred meters apart
[14:12] Speaker 1: South Block and Value by one eight hundred meters apart.
[14:15] Speaker 1: How difficult can it be for files to move between
[14:17] Speaker 1: the two? There is no question of people not being
[14:19] Speaker 1: you know, in the picture of what these are. So
[14:22] Speaker 1: what is this committee? So it's almost like I'm a
[14:25] Speaker 1: little bewildered. Am I missing something? Because a special committee
[14:29] Speaker 1: is formed when there is a you know, very very
[14:33] Speaker 1: urgent and immediate problem to solve, you know, like a
[14:36] Speaker 1: JPC or a group of ministers, which the UPA government
[14:38] Speaker 1: is still love any problem that came in group of ministers,
[14:41] Speaker 1: and by and large Prana would be the head of
[14:44] Speaker 1: the group of ministers here, of course is you know,
[14:46] Speaker 1: no longer there, God bless his soul. But if he
[14:48] Speaker 1: was still in the mood, he would have probably been
[14:50] Speaker 1: part of this committee also. So I am just I'm
[14:53] Speaker 1: just flummoxed that, you know, an Air Force and an
[14:58] Speaker 1: administration as professional, as advanced and forward looking, something that
[15:03] Speaker 1: should be so forward looking as ours, you know, has
[15:07] Speaker 1: entrusted a committee to solve all all these problems. I
[15:10] Speaker 1: feel like sending them copies of all our episodes and saying,
[15:13] Speaker 1: you know, forget about the committee, just watch all these episodes.
[15:15] Speaker 1: Who say PowerPoint presentation, mil jaga. That's a little boastful,
[15:20] Speaker 1: but you know what, you know where I'm coming from.
[15:22] Speaker 1: So I I just I think alarm and concern over
[15:26] Speaker 1: another committee being formed is where I stand on this, right.
[15:31] Speaker 2: Uh, you know, yeah, you're right about us. Not wanted
[15:33] Speaker 2: to sound boastful. It's not as though we have all
[15:35] Speaker 2: the solutions in life for us, but we do have some.
[15:37] Speaker 2: But we do have some exactly. But you know, one
[15:40] Speaker 2: interesting part of that report pundit where he was quoting sources,
[15:44] Speaker 2: was that this committee will look at the most critical
[15:47] Speaker 2: capability wide in the air force. That report report also
[15:50] Speaker 2: spoke about the rising air force thread from China. Then
[15:55] Speaker 2: there's also the fact this is not from the report,
[15:57] Speaker 2: but this also happened. I think maybe a week go,
[15:58] Speaker 2: so got maybe a couple of deal I forgot the
[16:00] Speaker 2: exact day when there were some reports that Pakistan is
[16:03] Speaker 2: looking to buy around forty a JF twenty five jets
[16:06] Speaker 2: from from China. And there's some reports about the Bangladesh
[16:09] Speaker 2: Air Force also kind of trying to expand, trying to
[16:12] Speaker 2: expand which could be a concern, especially considering what's happening
[16:15] Speaker 2: in markets right now and relations with that country right
[16:18] Speaker 2: now with Chaikasina being deposed and kind of living in
[16:22] Speaker 2: Deli somewhere. You also then have the Mad twenty one
[16:24] Speaker 2: which is getting which is already old, not getting whole time, sorry,
[16:28] Speaker 2: and you want to figure it out, but you are
[16:29] Speaker 2: not being able to because you think, just Mark twenty
[16:32] Speaker 2: deliveries have been hit because of the US supplier of
[16:35] Speaker 2: engines being affected by a South Korean supplier of some
[16:39] Speaker 2: part of the engines. Yes, so what is this wide?
[16:44] Speaker 2: And the alarm over the committee aside? How alarming is
[16:49] Speaker 2: the situation for the Air Force really, because it just
[16:52] Speaker 2: seems to me that in this past one year, like
[16:54] Speaker 2: you know, said we're ending this and in this year,
[16:56] Speaker 2: in this past one year, that have been just way
[16:58] Speaker 2: too many report So it's just again and again and
[17:01] Speaker 2: again highlighting and bringing it to our notice that here
[17:04] Speaker 2: there is an issue with the Air Force's fight a fleet.
[17:06] Speaker 1: You know, I think you know, when history looks back
[17:09] Speaker 1: on these last few years since twenty twenty, I think
[17:12] Speaker 1: the in our Defense playlist on YouTube is going to
[17:15] Speaker 1: be an amazing historical archive of all of the points
[17:18] Speaker 1: that you've just mentioned. And I'm not even being faceicious.
[17:20] Speaker 1: I'm totally serious because we've been you know, we've taken
[17:23] Speaker 1: the bull by its horns on all of these issues
[17:25] Speaker 1: that you've just mentioned. The fact that a committee sends
[17:28] Speaker 1: out the message that we are once again reactive, you know,
[17:32] Speaker 1: we are reacting to our problems which have been festering
[17:35] Speaker 1: over many, many years. None of the things that you mentioned,
[17:39] Speaker 1: by the way they've are a surprise to the Air Force.
[17:42] Speaker 1: The let me say this without you know, I'm not
[17:46] Speaker 1: trying to play both sides, because there are no sides
[17:48] Speaker 1: here except national interest. The Indian Air Force is one
[17:54] Speaker 1: of the most professional when it comes to looking at
[17:58] Speaker 1: long term issues. Okay, so the bottleneck here is is
[18:01] Speaker 1: not very often the Indian Air Force. The Indian Air
[18:03] Speaker 1: Force is all already wargamed. The possibility of the JF
[18:06] Speaker 1: thirty five is, you know, going to Pakistan. Chinese fighters
[18:10] Speaker 1: of any kind will ultimately fall into Pakistani hands. It's
[18:13] Speaker 1: as simple as that. Now you've got the Bangladesh situation
[18:16] Speaker 1: as well, You've got the entire dynamic of the India
[18:19] Speaker 1: China standoff that you know, we're making baby steps towards
[18:23] Speaker 1: some kind of a normalization, but we're very, very far
[18:25] Speaker 1: away from it. We've discussed that in a separate episode.
[18:29] Speaker 1: But the fact that things have changed so much that
[18:32] Speaker 1: we now need a kind of take stock committee signals
[18:37] Speaker 1: once again a sense of urgency. But again, paradoxically, I'm
[18:42] Speaker 1: wondering whether that signals that these issues were not urgent earlier.
[18:47] Speaker 1: What is again, you know, none of these big changes
[18:51] Speaker 1: have happened overnight that they've gone from being traditional you know,
[18:56] Speaker 1: issues of modernization and comparative strength capitalization in other countries
[19:00] Speaker 1: like China, Pakistan, Bangladesh visibly what we are doing here
[19:03] Speaker 1: in India. These things have been going on for years.
[19:06] Speaker 1: The J thirty five didn't spring out of thin air
[19:10] Speaker 1: in China suddenly one day, alarming all of us Indians saying,
[19:13] Speaker 1: oh my god, we don't have anything. These things have
[19:16] Speaker 1: been happening for a long time. And believe me when
[19:18] Speaker 1: I say, the mood in the Air Force know these
[19:20] Speaker 1: things very very well. They are highly capable in terms
[19:24] Speaker 1: of early warning, looking at long term threats and planning
[19:27] Speaker 1: for them, which is why I'm confused and a little
[19:30] Speaker 1: you know, left a little flammoxed about what this committee actually,
[19:36] Speaker 1: you know, seeks to seeks to achieve. The simple fact
[19:41] Speaker 1: of the matter is, of course there are shortages. Of
[19:44] Speaker 1: course there are shortages. The sanctioned squadron strength of fighters
[19:49] Speaker 1: in the Indian Air Force is forty two and a half.
[19:51] Speaker 1: We have somewhere around thirty squadrons right now, so we've
[19:54] Speaker 1: got a huge shortfall. And this shortfall has been has been,
[19:59] Speaker 1: you know, festering for the better part of you know,
[20:02] Speaker 1: a decade and a half, two decades now. It's not
[20:05] Speaker 1: a current problem. It's been going for a long time.
[20:07] Speaker 1: So what does that tell you about the fact that
[20:10] Speaker 1: for two decades you haven't been able to really address,
[20:13] Speaker 1: you know, a situation that's been unfolding in front of
[20:15] Speaker 1: your eyes. There have been three separate I'm taking small examples,
[20:19] Speaker 1: there have been three separate tenders and contests in order
[20:24] Speaker 1: to give the Indian Air Force six more aerial refueling aircraft.
[20:29] Speaker 1: Still has not happened. We've gone through all kinds of
[20:32] Speaker 1: permutations and combinations. You chose the airbus, a three thirty
[20:36] Speaker 1: refueling aircraft, the MR the multi roll tanker. You've chosen
[20:41] Speaker 1: it twice, but then you decided it's too expensive, so
[20:44] Speaker 1: forget it. Then you're talking about leasing, then you're talking
[20:47] Speaker 1: about something else. Now again you think you're going to
[20:50] Speaker 1: have some other, some other kind of contest. And so
[20:53] Speaker 1: over fifteen years, you don't have a a refueler. You're
[20:57] Speaker 1: still dependent on your Aisle seventy eighth. Okay, you've got,
[21:00] Speaker 1: you've got, let's come to let's come to the Avax.
[21:05] Speaker 1: You had three avas from from Israel Russia. The Falcon
[21:09] Speaker 1: Avax built on the IL seventy six platform that arrived
[21:11] Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine. And I remember that clearly
[21:13] Speaker 1: because I was covering the war in Sri Lanka when
[21:15] Speaker 1: those aircraft arrived, and I was I was very upset
[21:18] Speaker 1: because I wanted to be Nagara when the aircraft arrived,
[21:20] Speaker 1: but I couldn't because I was covering the LTTE war
[21:22] Speaker 1: uh and uh and I, by the way, when I
[21:26] Speaker 1: was the andermans right now, the current the current Sincan
[21:29] Speaker 1: which is the Commander in chief of the Aeneman Nicobar Command.
[21:32] Speaker 1: Am Marshall Saju Balakrishnan was the first commanding officer of
[21:36] Speaker 1: the Avax Squadron when they arrived in two thousand and nine,
[21:40] Speaker 1: and I was actually sort of commiserating with him and
[21:41] Speaker 1: saying that, you know, those three aircraft are still there.
[21:43] Speaker 1: Were completely dependent on them. We've got We've had all
[21:46] Speaker 1: these extravagant plans in the last fifteen years for more.
[21:51] Speaker 1: We've added three more aircraft, you know, based on the
[21:53] Speaker 1: embryor the Natra with an Indian radar. But beyond that,
[21:57] Speaker 1: nothing has happened. We've had so many different things A three,
[21:59] Speaker 1: A some other AVAX, C two nine, five avas, All
[22:03] Speaker 1: kinds of different things have been thought of, but nothing
[22:06] Speaker 1: is actually you know, come in and in a country
[22:08] Speaker 1: of India size definitely needs more special aircraft of that kind.
[22:12] Speaker 1: So that's your AAX shortfall in a WAX, you've got
[22:14] Speaker 1: a shortfall in your refuelers fighters. We've already spoken about drones,
[22:19] Speaker 1: completely separate story. But at least things are moving there
[22:21] Speaker 1: because we're getting those that drone deals done, even though
[22:25] Speaker 1: as we said, that's completely delayed. Now you come to helicopters,
[22:29] Speaker 1: your light helicopter project has gone nowhere. The Indian Air
[22:32] Speaker 1: Force has been in the market for I think something
[22:36] Speaker 1: like sixty or seventy light helicopters to replace cheetahs and chetaks,
[22:41] Speaker 1: et cetera. That has not gone anywhere. They've not been
[22:44] Speaker 1: able to get those helicopters. Medium lift helicopters are supposed
[22:48] Speaker 1: to come in much larger numbers. That hasn't happened as
[22:50] Speaker 1: a shortfall there as well. So in any given category
[22:55] Speaker 1: of air power in this country, there is a shortfall. Now.
[23:01] Speaker 1: Now a shortfall by itself is not an alarming thing.
[23:04] Speaker 1: Shortfalls happened. You know, everybody would like more aircraft. Everybody
[23:08] Speaker 1: would like to meet that sanctioned strength. But the problem is,
[23:12] Speaker 1: are you able to incrementally address it, you know, in
[23:16] Speaker 1: such a way that it becomes a sustainable kind of
[23:18] Speaker 1: procurement process that people don't need to constantly worry about. Okay,
[23:22] Speaker 1: we have to have another contest. Okay, we need to
[23:24] Speaker 1: do this, Okay, we need to do that. A great
[23:26] Speaker 1: example is also the C. Seventeen acquisition that India had.
[23:31] Speaker 1: We ordered ten aircraft. When the aircraft started arriving, the
[23:36] Speaker 1: Indian Air Force and the Indian government realized how amazing
[23:39] Speaker 1: these aircraft are, and a country of India's size and
[23:42] Speaker 1: a country of India's responsibilities, especially in the Indian Ocean region,
[23:45] Speaker 1: they realized that the C seventeen is the only aircraft
[23:48] Speaker 1: that can fly all around the world with huge, you know,
[23:51] Speaker 1: humanitarian loads and be able to evacuate people from other places.
[23:55] Speaker 1: And a country of India size needs aircraft like this.
[23:58] Speaker 1: So then India realized, you know, we only have We've
[24:00] Speaker 1: only ordered ten of these aircraft and the production line,
[24:03] Speaker 1: production line in Long Beach, California, is shutting, and they're
[24:07] Speaker 1: only building a few more. So so the US government said, look,
[24:10] Speaker 1: we've got a few more aircraft, but you need to
[24:11] Speaker 1: decide now because production is shutting now. This aircraft has
[24:14] Speaker 1: been built for like decades and now we don't have
[24:17] Speaker 1: any more customers. These are the last few aircraft ruling
[24:19] Speaker 1: off the line, so you need to quickly tell us.
[24:22] Speaker 1: There were five aircraft, if I'm not mistaken, five aircraft,
[24:24] Speaker 1: which India could have said, yes, we want these aircraft
[24:27] Speaker 1: because these aircraft are valuable to us. Delayed delayed, delay, delay,
[24:30] Speaker 1: daily relay. Finally, India was able to order one because
[24:32] Speaker 1: the rest was scooped up by Katar and some other
[24:35] Speaker 1: countries because India didn't react fast enough. And it's a
[24:39] Speaker 1: it's a decision that is still being regretted because a
[24:41] Speaker 1: country of India size, most definitely for an aircraft of
[24:44] Speaker 1: that kind, should have been able to operate at least
[24:47] Speaker 1: twenty of those aircraft and we're stuck with eleven now.
[24:49] Speaker 1: So that's that's another small example of the system. And
[24:52] Speaker 1: remember that was not even the air Force's fault. That
[24:54] Speaker 1: was the government being sluggish in terms of decision making.
[24:58] Speaker 1: Uh So, so all of these shortfalls are are not
[25:03] Speaker 1: are not new issues. They're not surprises, they're not they're
[25:07] Speaker 1: not sudden cod read alerts for the air Force. They
[25:10] Speaker 1: are well known for the air Force. So it remains
[25:13] Speaker 1: to be seen what this committee is going to do.
[25:16] Speaker 1: The I you know, at the I may be sounding
[25:20] Speaker 1: a little too harsh and saying, you know, I'm alarmed
[25:22] Speaker 1: and flamaxd but I will I will say this as
[25:25] Speaker 1: a kind of other side comment, which is that I
[25:28] Speaker 1: am interested in seeing what the action plan of this
[25:31] Speaker 1: committee is going to be. What is it going to do.
[25:34] Speaker 1: Is it going to provide a very very sort of
[25:36] Speaker 1: no nonsense roadmap or a priority list in terms of
[25:40] Speaker 1: what we're going to do In my in my personal analysis,
[25:43] Speaker 1: and I think Radjets has also mentioned it in his
[25:45] Speaker 1: piece in Times of India that the MRFA, which is
[25:48] Speaker 1: the Indian Air Force is long adrift, you know, hunt
[25:52] Speaker 1: for one hundred and fourteen fighters, which will be a
[25:55] Speaker 1: few of which will be bought off the shelf from
[25:57] Speaker 1: wherever they are built and the rest will be made
[26:00] Speaker 1: in India under a localized production line. I imagine that
[26:03] Speaker 1: that is one of the the immediate issues that needs
[26:06] Speaker 1: to be sorted out because that's a huge money commitment,
[26:09] Speaker 1: you know, a huge I'm not sure what it is,
[26:12] Speaker 1: but I think it's over one lack of public money
[26:16] Speaker 1: that will be committed to that. So that's why this
[26:18] Speaker 1: committee has been formed perhaps to either either decide whether
[26:22] Speaker 1: that's going to happen or decide it's not going to happen.
[26:24] Speaker 1: I imagine it is because it's the Indian Air Force
[26:26] Speaker 1: has come too far and they see that as a
[26:27] Speaker 1: quick fix. We've had a full episode on the m
[26:30] Speaker 1: r f A and the sense in going through the
[26:32] Speaker 1: motions all over again and hoping that sense will prevail.
[26:35] Speaker 1: We don't know what's going to happen with that, but
[26:37] Speaker 1: on all of these other aspects, it's going to be
[26:40] Speaker 1: interesting to see what they do. Is it going to
[26:42] Speaker 1: be Is it going to be a you know, a
[26:44] Speaker 1: white paper, one of those things that becomes a you know,
[26:47] Speaker 1: another another meandering PDF file on the internet, or is
[26:51] Speaker 1: it or is it going to be a kind of
[26:54] Speaker 1: you know, a sledgehammer report that says, this is what
[26:58] Speaker 1: we're going to do and this is how long we're
[27:00] Speaker 1: going to take to achieve it. I hope it's the latter.
[27:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, Right, we'll circle back to what this committee will
[27:05] Speaker 2: kind of focus on a couple of areas I really
[27:07] Speaker 2: want to talk about, actually, but just because you're on
[27:09] Speaker 2: the topic of shortfall, and also because I've wanted to
[27:12] Speaker 2: use this episode sort of to look at aspects of
[27:15] Speaker 2: Indian Air Forces shortfalls that you've ignored, not ignored as in,
[27:18] Speaker 2: but that we haven't discussed on this on this podcast.
[27:20] Speaker 2: The non fighter fleet, like you mentioned right now, there
[27:23] Speaker 2: was another report it's a bad week for the Air Force,
[27:26] Speaker 2: I think, another report that was tabled in parliament by
[27:29] Speaker 2: the government's auditor who said that even the pilots are
[27:33] Speaker 2: running in short fall. So apparently in twenty fifteen you
[27:38] Speaker 2: were shot of pilots by four eighty six and that
[27:41] Speaker 2: number has gone up to five ninety six. Right, So
[27:43] Speaker 2: just as a tangent, what's up with that?
[27:45] Speaker 1: So, yeah, again, this is not a new problem. The
[27:49] Speaker 1: pilot shortfall in the Air Force has been has been
[27:52] Speaker 1: a problem that I have personally seen in Parliament answers
[27:56] Speaker 1: and reported on through my entire twenty year career as
[27:59] Speaker 1: a fence correspondent. Uh. There are issues there are. First
[28:03] Speaker 1: of all, we have to remember that, uh, there are
[28:05] Speaker 1: all kinds of pilots in the Air Force. Uh. There
[28:08] Speaker 1: are there are pilots for transport aircraft, for helicopters, uh,
[28:13] Speaker 1: you know, for other kinds of There are drone operators,
[28:15] Speaker 1: there are you know, heavy transporters, light transporters, attack helicopters,
[28:20] Speaker 1: and there are fighter and you know, bomber aircraft aircraft
[28:24] Speaker 1: like the Jaguar, et cetera.
[28:25] Speaker 2: Uh.
[28:26] Speaker 1: There have been issues in terms of how many people
[28:30] Speaker 1: are actually signing up. That's the at a very basic level,
[28:33] Speaker 1: there are that there is a problem with the number
[28:36] Speaker 1: of people actually intending to join the fighters stream, which
[28:40] Speaker 1: is an ongoing battle for the Air Force, uh, which
[28:43] Speaker 1: which it has tried to do. You know, we tend
[28:44] Speaker 1: to think of, you know, fighter piloting as the obvious
[28:49] Speaker 1: career of choice if you want to be in the
[28:50] Speaker 1: air force.
[28:51] Speaker 2: Uh.
[28:51] Speaker 1: And you know, the the glamorized world of fighter flying
[28:54] Speaker 1: and the fighter cockpit means that anyone lining up to
[28:57] Speaker 1: join the air force wants to be a fighter pilot.
[28:59] Speaker 1: And now it's open to even women. So you know,
[29:01] Speaker 1: how can they be a short fall? Well, that's the
[29:03] Speaker 1: you know, that's the that's the ironic reality of it.
[29:06] Speaker 1: Not that this is of any comfort, but pilot shortfalls
[29:10] Speaker 1: are something that dog nearly every air force in the world,
[29:13] Speaker 1: including the Chinese, including the US, including the Royal Air Force,
[29:16] Speaker 1: including the French. Everywhere there is a pilot shortfall in
[29:20] Speaker 1: virtually every air force in the world. There is a problem.
[29:23] Speaker 1: There are there are societal issues as well. People are
[29:26] Speaker 1: you know, there are other different kinds of jobs available
[29:28] Speaker 1: to people. You know, some there is a sense now
[29:33] Speaker 1: that you know, why should I get into fighter flying
[29:35] Speaker 1: when I can do other things in the air force.
[29:37] Speaker 1: There are so many other things that are are available
[29:40] Speaker 1: as well. But this is an ongoing battle that can
[29:42] Speaker 1: only be I think, uh sort of you know, addressed
[29:47] Speaker 1: in a kind of multilateral way. It's there's not there's
[29:50] Speaker 1: no one quick fix solution. It's not like if you
[29:52] Speaker 1: suddenly have a fabulous advertising campaign for you know, joining
[29:56] Speaker 1: the air Force recruitment. It's going to you know, solve
[29:59] Speaker 1: the day. It's it's it's it's it's like a it's
[30:03] Speaker 1: like that kind of thing. But but remember that there
[30:08] Speaker 1: are shortages and other pilot streams as well, not just
[30:10] Speaker 1: in not just in uh fighter fighter aircraft. There there
[30:15] Speaker 1: is albeit a smaller shortfall in helicopter pilots and transport
[30:19] Speaker 1: aircraft as well, and this needs to be definitely sorted out. Obviously,
[30:24] Speaker 1: this committee is not going to look into that because
[30:26] Speaker 1: it's more of a human resources issue than anything else.
[30:29] Speaker 1: But also remember that not everyone the other the other
[30:31] Speaker 1: problem is you a, you've got not enough people signing
[30:34] Speaker 1: up to be fighter pilots. Be not everyone who signs
[30:37] Speaker 1: up to be a fighter pilot is making it because
[30:39] Speaker 1: there is a bound straight there as well, because it's
[30:43] Speaker 1: it's not like, oh, you know, you want to be
[30:45] Speaker 1: a fighter pilot. There are there are very very uh
[30:49] Speaker 1: you know, robust, uh demanding, challenging and difficult hurdles to
[30:55] Speaker 1: cross before you join the fighter stream in terms of
[31:00] Speaker 1: both you know, online and offline sort of training that
[31:03] Speaker 1: takes place. So it's not easy to become a fighter pilot,
[31:06] Speaker 1: there's a there's a you have to walk over the
[31:10] Speaker 1: coals proverbially to actually even make it there. So that's
[31:14] Speaker 1: another kind of barrier to entry into the fighter steam
[31:17] Speaker 1: because obviously you need you need people of a you know,
[31:21] Speaker 1: three sixty degree greater caliber to fly in fighters because
[31:24] Speaker 1: the demands of a fighter aircraft visibly any other aircraft
[31:27] Speaker 1: are are are literally much more so. So there is
[31:31] Speaker 1: that that bounce straight as well. So if you put
[31:34] Speaker 1: all of these together, there is a there is a
[31:36] Speaker 1: shot for now. The good thing is no air force
[31:38] Speaker 1: in the world is going to lower that barrier or
[31:41] Speaker 1: you know, kind of dilute the requirements because you can't.
[31:44] Speaker 1: You can't screw around with fighter pilots. You cannot. Those
[31:47] Speaker 1: are your frontline men and women. You can't say, okay,
[31:51] Speaker 1: we will you know, we will go easy on the
[31:54] Speaker 1: on some requirements they don't need to don't know about this,
[31:57] Speaker 1: or you know, some physical characteristic soorabilities they know or site,
[32:02] Speaker 1: et cetera. You cannot mess with those aero medical issues
[32:05] Speaker 1: when it comes to fighter pilots, and I think that's
[32:07] Speaker 1: the right way to go. It needs to be much
[32:10] Speaker 1: more of a kind of recruitment issue. You need to
[32:14] Speaker 1: entice people more to come in in fly fighters.
[32:17] Speaker 2: Right right, We'll go back to the committee now and
[32:21] Speaker 2: look at the thing. Couple of areas that it should
[32:23] Speaker 2: or maybe it will focus on.
[32:25] Speaker 3: But after a quick break, do you sometimes get frustrated
[32:34] Speaker 3: choosing what to eat for diabetes management while stopping yourself
[32:38] Speaker 3: from eating that chocolate pudding is good?
[32:41] Speaker 1: But is it really enough?
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[32:47] Speaker 3: on World Diabetes Day, which is the fourteenth of November.
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[33:14] Speaker 2: Welcome back, Shive and I are talking about what's ailing
[33:17] Speaker 2: the Indian at Force when it comes to resources in
[33:19] Speaker 2: terms of fighter jets, non fighter jets, stuff like that,
[33:24] Speaker 2: and a committee that's been formed by the Ministry of
[33:26] Speaker 2: Defense to kind of look at all these issues and
[33:28] Speaker 2: kind of figure out sort of a like Shift says
[33:30] Speaker 2: hopefully your roadmap for what could be done ahead. We've
[33:33] Speaker 2: spent the first half talking about what's actually first of all.
[33:37] Speaker 2: Obviously Shift describing his thoughts on what the setting off
[33:39] Speaker 2: a committee means to him, which he says is quite alarming,
[33:43] Speaker 2: not for the right reasons, and why this committee was
[33:46] Speaker 2: formed kind of giving our viewers and listeners a recap
[33:49] Speaker 2: of kind of all the shortages that the Internet forces
[33:51] Speaker 2: is facing. I was wondering, Shift, if you think the
[33:55] Speaker 2: committee will or perhaps should look at lessons that you
[33:59] Speaker 2: could have you should learn from the development cycle, because
[34:04] Speaker 2: we've spent an episode talking about how it was overall
[34:07] Speaker 2: a very good project. You know, there were many many
[34:09] Speaker 2: issues there. Not very happy with the fighter jet at
[34:12] Speaker 2: the beginning. The one that you have in service is
[34:14] Speaker 2: not really the one that I first wanted, the one
[34:16] Speaker 2: that you're going to get. It's not not the one
[34:17] Speaker 2: that there first wanted. The one that there first wanted,
[34:20] Speaker 2: the Mark two, we don't know quite where it's there. Uh.
[34:23] Speaker 2: And also the fact that you don't have your own
[34:26] Speaker 2: engine to power these fighter jets, something that we've briefly
[34:30] Speaker 2: touched upon on several episodes, noting how that's a very
[34:33] Speaker 2: crucial issue in this whole shortage business, because if you
[34:37] Speaker 2: had your own engine, you could then perhaps develop which
[34:39] Speaker 2: you already have you've developed an airfram around it. You
[34:42] Speaker 2: just need to have that engine to kind of get
[34:44] Speaker 2: that production line going. While I was researching, I just
[34:47] Speaker 2: on separate mode. I think you'll want to definitely bring
[34:50] Speaker 2: it up when you're answering this. I came across a
[34:53] Speaker 2: Financial Times report, not from not very old, of just
[34:55] Speaker 2: a couple of two three months ago, where it says
[34:59] Speaker 2: India's kind of explos lowering building its own engine with
[35:02] Speaker 2: foreign help. I was like, Wow, it was going to
[35:04] Speaker 2: love this, love to talk about this, you know, I mean,
[35:08] Speaker 2: you want to develop your own engine, but news mayviously
[35:11] Speaker 2: later because so again you will have to supply tchin
[35:15] Speaker 2: issues clogging that perhaps one day. Anyway, My largest point
[35:19] Speaker 2: yeah this, Uh, and do you think this committee is
[35:22] Speaker 2: going to look at the they just mark one air
[35:24] Speaker 2: and see they just development cycle, and see if there
[35:26] Speaker 2: are lessons from that there you can take and perhaps
[35:30] Speaker 2: help solve the air forces issues.
[35:31] Speaker 1: So I don't think that the committee is going to
[35:33] Speaker 1: look at the tagous program itself, but I think that
[35:37] Speaker 1: the committee has been formed because of the delays in
[35:41] Speaker 1: the tages in in one way, at least, you know
[35:44] Speaker 1: there's a compelling factor here. So I don't I don't
[35:47] Speaker 1: think it has been formed to solve any of the
[35:51] Speaker 1: TAGS problems. That thankfully is something that the Air Force
[35:55] Speaker 1: and HL and you know other agencies are sorting out
[35:59] Speaker 1: at their level, you know. And like you rightly pointed out,
[36:02] Speaker 1: the problems with the tagers are not really an Indian problem.
[36:06] Speaker 1: They are there with the supply chain issues with South
[36:09] Speaker 1: Korea and the United States, and our dependence on an
[36:12] Speaker 1: engine of American origin has meant that we've got no
[36:16] Speaker 1: choice but to sit around and wait for that engine
[36:18] Speaker 1: to you know, arrive. And I think Rahulsingh has done
[36:23] Speaker 1: a piece this morning or yesterday where he says that
[36:27] Speaker 1: the first deliveries of the Markwani are not going to
[36:30] Speaker 1: happen before March twenty twenty five. So far from the
[36:34] Speaker 1: sixteen aircraft that was supposed to be delivered in the
[36:37] Speaker 1: fiscal there will be you know, just a handful two
[36:39] Speaker 1: or three or four aircraft that will come. So that's
[36:43] Speaker 1: a very very significant sort of jolt to the TAGES
[36:50] Speaker 1: program in terms of timelines and supply. The only comfort
[36:54] Speaker 1: in all of this, if I can even call it comfort,
[36:56] Speaker 1: because there is nothing comforting about it, is that it's
[36:58] Speaker 1: not because of an Indian issue. It's not hl's fault
[37:03] Speaker 1: that we are going to get the theages just mark
[37:05] Speaker 1: one a late. It's good. It's because of the of
[37:08] Speaker 1: UH General Electric and their delays, et cetera. Of course,
[37:12] Speaker 1: we can argue that UH, you know, project mismanagement, you know,
[37:16] Speaker 1: long term lack of capability in terms of building an
[37:19] Speaker 1: engine can all have all compounded in this terrible situation
[37:23] Speaker 1: we are now in. But that's that's something we've spoken
[37:26] Speaker 1: about on our engine episode, so we can put that
[37:29] Speaker 1: in our show notes. But but the truth of the
[37:32] Speaker 1: matter is that the the the delay in the theages
[37:36] Speaker 1: is first of all, a not not a minor issue. UH.
[37:40] Speaker 1: The Indian Air Force, given its shortfall in terms of fighters,
[37:43] Speaker 1: every little delay has UH has a much larger effect
[37:48] Speaker 1: than in an air force which had adequate numbers.
[37:51] Speaker 2: UH.
[37:52] Speaker 1: It is a troubling issue because the Air Force is
[37:54] Speaker 1: now fully, very very dependent on the theages coming on
[37:57] Speaker 1: time and has had to UH have had to kind
[38:00] Speaker 1: of recalibrate and look at different things, including the m
[38:04] Speaker 1: r f A. I imagine you know, probably accelerating the
[38:07] Speaker 1: m r f A program UH in order to kind
[38:10] Speaker 1: of UH alleviate the the the you know, the the
[38:14] Speaker 1: numbers pressure that will come on the air force as
[38:16] Speaker 1: a result of delays in the tageous fighters coming online.
[38:20] Speaker 2: Uh.
[38:21] Speaker 1: Uh, that is definitely one aspect of it. On your
[38:24] Speaker 1: second part about an Indian engine being built. Uh, you know,
[38:27] Speaker 1: if any news about an engine, Indian effort to build
[38:31] Speaker 1: an engine is something that I will applaud and welcome
[38:33] Speaker 1: with open arms, you know, whether it is with the
[38:36] Speaker 1: foreign help or not. Uh. We have to be a
[38:39] Speaker 1: little realistic ultimately about it, you know. Uh, the we've
[38:43] Speaker 1: done a full episode on the Kaveri engine program in
[38:46] Speaker 1: India that didn't quite end up delivering an engine that
[38:50] Speaker 1: was usable for an Indian fighter aircraft. Uh. You know,
[38:54] Speaker 1: and I think I think the Indian uh, the Indian
[38:57] Speaker 1: dr d O and the you know, the agencies involved.
[39:01] Speaker 1: Uh have we have to credit them with having been
[39:04] Speaker 1: a little realistic about it, saying okay, we are we
[39:07] Speaker 1: are not able to build this engine ourselves, but let's
[39:09] Speaker 1: leverage the huge contracts that we have with foreign suppliers,
[39:14] Speaker 1: you know, like the French or the United States or
[39:16] Speaker 1: whoever it is. Let's leverage those relationships in order to
[39:19] Speaker 1: accelerate building what is essentially our engine, but with with
[39:23] Speaker 1: with some technological assistance from these behemits of engine engine
[39:28] Speaker 1: manufacturer like ge Or or Sneckma or Saffran, whoever it is.
[39:32] Speaker 2: Uh.
[39:32] Speaker 1: And I think there's nothing wrong with that because ultimately,
[39:35] Speaker 1: as one of the world, if not the largest importer
[39:39] Speaker 1: of weapons, what is the point of these relationships we
[39:42] Speaker 1: have with these countries if we're not able to you know,
[39:45] Speaker 1: rent some technology to to build our own stuff. So
[39:48] Speaker 1: I see nothing wrong with that. I think it's unrealistic
[39:51] Speaker 1: to think of India now sort of ab initio building
[39:54] Speaker 1: its own engine, developing its own engine when it has
[39:56] Speaker 1: already you know, quote unquote failed to deliver a workable
[40:00] Speaker 1: operational engine in the Kaveri program. So if if India
[40:03] Speaker 1: is now deciding to build its own turbofan jet engine
[40:08] Speaker 1: with some you know, with some tech from abroad, I say,
[40:12] Speaker 1: put your hands together and welcome it. You know, my
[40:15] Speaker 1: only concern would be enforced timelines, ensure ensure that there
[40:21] Speaker 1: is a workable plan going forward. I'm sure the people
[40:24] Speaker 1: involved already know all of this, you know, they would
[40:27] Speaker 1: probably uh, you know, look at what I'm saying. As
[40:31] Speaker 1: you know, as impudent giving them advice on this, but
[40:34] Speaker 1: we have a track record of having completely failed to
[40:38] Speaker 1: deliver this. So therefore I think I have the right
[40:40] Speaker 1: to you know, mention these things. And we have to
[40:43] Speaker 1: remember that the agencies involved, you know, have in the past,
[40:48] Speaker 1: have a track record of competing interests, you know, overlapping
[40:51] Speaker 1: ego issues, turf battles. Uh, you know, if not open
[40:55] Speaker 1: hostility and animosity with each other, including HL and the
[40:59] Speaker 1: Indian Air Force, and therefore leaving all that behind, if
[41:03] Speaker 1: there can be a real, uh real shot at getting
[41:07] Speaker 1: our own engine with some foreign tech, I think it's
[41:09] Speaker 1: something that is definitely, definitely welcome. I don't think that
[41:12] Speaker 1: is in the ambit of this current committee because this
[41:15] Speaker 1: is a this is a committee of a of a
[41:17] Speaker 1: more kind of acquisite you know, in the nature of
[41:22] Speaker 1: shortfalls and acquisition and not technology.
[41:24] Speaker 3: Uh.
[41:25] Speaker 1: But yeah, it's very much on the table, right.
[41:28] Speaker 2: Uh So, just like you know, as we end this episode,
[41:31] Speaker 2: a couple of points, and just to kind of expand
[41:33] Speaker 2: on what you just said and you briefly touched upon
[41:34] Speaker 2: at the beginning, you're worry in terms of what this
[41:37] Speaker 2: committee will end up actually doing. Do you think it's
[41:40] Speaker 2: going to focus, like you said, on these piecemeal approaches
[41:43] Speaker 2: of you know, kick, how do we just immediately fix
[41:45] Speaker 2: you not immediately fix, but give us sort of an
[41:48] Speaker 2: immediate solution to give some airf for some fighter fighters
[41:52] Speaker 2: so that some squadron strength is fulfilled. Or do you
[41:54] Speaker 2: think it's going to take a holistic look and try
[41:57] Speaker 2: to identify the cause that because of which you are
[42:00] Speaker 2: facing these issues, Like you know, for example, is it
[42:04] Speaker 2: that it is just way, way too expensive because fighter
[42:08] Speaker 2: jets are damn expensive. I think one jet, any fighter jet,
[42:11] Speaker 2: would cost somewhere in upwards of rupees f crow. That's
[42:14] Speaker 2: bare minimum, is what I'm saying.
[42:16] Speaker 1: Uh.
[42:16] Speaker 2: And also the fact that you know, if you commit
[42:18] Speaker 2: to something, if you commit to a big order of
[42:20] Speaker 2: fighter jets, you are committing future governments to it. Because
[42:23] Speaker 2: a lot of people don't understand this. It's not a
[42:26] Speaker 2: one time payment, right. Every year the Air Force gets
[42:29] Speaker 2: allocated a budget that's known as the cap ex budget,
[42:32] Speaker 2: the capital expenditure budget budget. And this budget is not
[42:35] Speaker 2: to buy new things. It's mostly to actually pay for
[42:37] Speaker 2: the things you've already bought many many years ago. So
[42:40] Speaker 2: if you're spending, if you're committing to like you said,
[42:43] Speaker 2: rupees one lack coka order, that'll be like you know,
[42:45] Speaker 2: generally a future many many governments they'll have to adhere
[42:49] Speaker 2: to it. And that's a lot of mine down the
[42:50] Speaker 2: line in the future. Or do you think the problem
[42:53] Speaker 2: also lies with the air force? You know, while I
[42:55] Speaker 2: was kind of researching, I came across this comment from
[42:57] Speaker 2: former Defense Minister manhor Particle. I think he was speaking
[43:00] Speaker 2: in a conclave in twenty fifteen where he kind of
[43:02] Speaker 2: basically said, the military has like you know, aspirations, like
[43:05] Speaker 2: you know, like the ones you've seen comic books, when
[43:07] Speaker 2: it comes to the kind of quality they want from vendors,
[43:10] Speaker 2: and he called it absurd and fanciful. I think are
[43:13] Speaker 2: these words that he used. So do you think the
[43:15] Speaker 2: committee will go into all of this and identify that
[43:18] Speaker 2: one cause and then perhaps give you this long term roadmap,
[43:21] Speaker 2: you know, if you stay on this line Q question.
[43:25] Speaker 1: Yeah. So my experience with committees, and believe me, I've
[43:27] Speaker 1: covered a lot of committees in my twenty years, my
[43:31] Speaker 1: analysis of this committee is that it is what I
[43:33] Speaker 1: call a crossroads committee, the or you could call it
[43:38] Speaker 1: a folk in the road committee, which is that a
[43:40] Speaker 1: committee has been formed because the Air Force now faces
[43:43] Speaker 1: a difficult decision where it needs to prioritize one path
[43:48] Speaker 1: over the other, and therefore a committee has been formed
[43:51] Speaker 1: to look at what is feasible, what is the better
[43:54] Speaker 1: path to take? You know, do we speed up the MRFA,
[43:59] Speaker 1: do we put that on hold? Do we move ahead
[44:01] Speaker 1: with other programs? Do we have the budget to do
[44:04] Speaker 1: a couple of other things? I think any good committee,
[44:07] Speaker 1: any good committee, at the very basic level, like I
[44:11] Speaker 1: said in my first answer, generates a priority list one page.
[44:15] Speaker 1: Here's your priority list on what to do, and here's
[44:17] Speaker 1: how we're going to achieve them in a phased manner.
[44:20] Speaker 1: The clearer and more specific the action plan, the better
[44:24] Speaker 1: the entire point of the committee. I don't think that
[44:27] Speaker 1: this committee, they is going to look at long term
[44:30] Speaker 1: solutions to these shortfalls, and it would be unfair to
[44:34] Speaker 1: expect that one little committee is going to be able
[44:37] Speaker 1: to do that. Those kinds of solutions come from much
[44:40] Speaker 1: larger studies and interfacing that happens at a kind of
[44:44] Speaker 1: daily level already between the Air Force, the mod and
[44:48] Speaker 1: other agencies. Which is why I was wondering why a
[44:50] Speaker 1: committee has been formed, so you know, when a committee
[44:52] Speaker 1: has been formed, I think it's much more about some
[44:55] Speaker 1: kind of an immediate crossroads or a folk in the
[44:57] Speaker 1: road where a decision needs to be taken, and so
[45:00] Speaker 1: we shouldn't expect anything greater than that. It's it's almost like,
[45:04] Speaker 1: you know, there's a bottleneck has been reached in terms
[45:08] Speaker 1: of capital acquisitions or in terms of the challenges that
[45:11] Speaker 1: the Air Force is facing, and therefore the government is decided,
[45:14] Speaker 1: let's form a committee to decide what the next step
[45:16] Speaker 1: needs to be so we can get past this kind
[45:18] Speaker 1: of bottleneck that is slowing us down in terms of
[45:21] Speaker 1: bringing in fighter numbers or helicopter numbers or whatever it is.
[45:25] Speaker 1: So so despite all the harsh things I said about
[45:28] Speaker 1: being alarmed and a committee is formed, there are some
[45:31] Speaker 1: good thing that there is a silver lining to a committee, because,
[45:34] Speaker 1: like I said in the beginning in my disclaimer, I said,
[45:36] Speaker 1: a committee at least means that you are you are
[45:39] Speaker 1: cognizant of the issue. You are you are awake to
[45:42] Speaker 1: the fact that you need to make a decision. And
[45:47] Speaker 1: we live in a country where decisiveness has never been
[45:51] Speaker 1: a virtue in government. You know, timely decisions, clarity of
[45:56] Speaker 1: decision making. You know, the bureaucracy has been allergic to it,
[45:59] Speaker 1: especially in the Ministry of Defense. So my only hope
[46:03] Speaker 1: from this committee is that it provides a kind of
[46:07] Speaker 1: very little elbow room to move this way or that way,
[46:10] Speaker 1: or to be set adrift once again, because every committee,
[46:14] Speaker 1: once again is an opportunity to kind of kick butt
[46:18] Speaker 1: and you know, get things out of chairs and and
[46:21] Speaker 1: move and get things rolling. And believe me, and this
[46:24] Speaker 1: is not specific to the Ministry of Defense, is it
[46:27] Speaker 1: is it comes as second nature to the bureaucracy. Is
[46:30] Speaker 1: that when the spotlight is gone, when the committee has
[46:33] Speaker 1: wound up, things just roll back to normal. And then
[46:37] Speaker 1: we're faced with the same old questions once again. And
[46:39] Speaker 1: then a new situation will arise, if not in the Himalayas,
[46:41] Speaker 1: then in the Indian Ocean, and then we'll be wondering
[46:44] Speaker 1: again why don't we have the same number of warships
[46:46] Speaker 1: that China has, or why aren't we ready for this
[46:48] Speaker 1: kind of situation and stuff, So that kind of bleak
[46:52] Speaker 1: picture should never face us. The good news to end
[46:55] Speaker 1: this episode is the forces the mod are not caught
[46:58] Speaker 1: by surprise by these things. They know these things. They
[47:01] Speaker 1: are fully prepared and you know, ready with solutions for
[47:04] Speaker 1: all these things, but sometimes it takes a little bit
[47:07] Speaker 1: of a kick to get things moving again. And I
[47:09] Speaker 1: think that's where this committee is coming into it. And
[47:12] Speaker 1: like I said in my first answer, there are It's like,
[47:16] Speaker 1: there are very many issues happening at the same time,
[47:19] Speaker 1: and I think someone is just trying to say, let's
[47:21] Speaker 1: just quickly make sense of this, you know, kind of
[47:23] Speaker 1: consolidated way. I mean, think of it as a fighter
[47:25] Speaker 1: pilot who's getting like one hundred different inputs on his
[47:28] Speaker 1: from his sensors. There's a surface to a missile coming,
[47:31] Speaker 1: there's a drone coming at him, somebody's fired a missile
[47:33] Speaker 1: from somewhere else, you know, there's anti aircraft fire coming in.
[47:37] Speaker 1: And he's got this one screen in front of him
[47:39] Speaker 1: that's fusing all that data and giving him an action
[47:41] Speaker 1: plan of which threat to deal with first. And I
[47:45] Speaker 1: think that's what this committee is about.
[47:46] Speaker 2: Yeah right, I think, yeah, perhaps, but there will be
[47:50] Speaker 2: something good that comes from this committee. And like you said,
[47:53] Speaker 2: I think it's all a matter of figuring out which
[47:55] Speaker 2: solution to choose. You already have solutions, like you said,
[47:58] Speaker 2: the guys in the minute you have defense. The guys
[48:01] Speaker 2: in the Air Force. They know what Snoopy done. It's
[48:03] Speaker 2: maybe a matter of saying, okay, let's do that and
[48:05] Speaker 2: not that right. And you know, a fun note to
[48:09] Speaker 2: totally a question, just a note because it just came
[48:12] Speaker 2: to my head to end this episode and kind of
[48:14] Speaker 2: you know, go back to what you said there at
[48:15] Speaker 2: the beginning and your worries. I couldn't help. But you know,
[48:18] Speaker 2: think of the Cargo Review Committee when I was doing
[48:21] Speaker 2: my research for this report, because it did exactly what
[48:23] Speaker 2: you've described in the first answer you That committee's report
[48:27] Speaker 2: was examined by a group of Minister's panel which set
[48:29] Speaker 2: up several task forces. Then there was a Parliamentary Standing
[48:32] Speaker 2: Committee that reviewed that group of minister's recommendations and to
[48:35] Speaker 2: see what had happened. And then there was some other
[48:38] Speaker 2: task force called the Narian Task Force, which basically said
[48:41] Speaker 2: nothing of that was recommended had happened in real life.
[48:44] Speaker 2: And I think there was also a Schickered Car Committee
[48:47] Speaker 2: a bit later but kind of linked to the issue,
[48:49] Speaker 2: but not really about the Cargo Review Committee report. But
[48:52] Speaker 2: still I think I just could not help think of that.
[48:54] Speaker 1: And just one example from all of these by the way,
[48:56] Speaker 1: all of these committees were very fine committees headed by
[48:58] Speaker 1: highly capable people who gave really good, actionable reports. At
[49:03] Speaker 1: the end of it, it's about implementation. It's about it's
[49:05] Speaker 1: about carrying out what they recommended where the problem actually happens,
[49:08] Speaker 1: because committees by themselves do very very good work. In
[49:12] Speaker 1: India is very well prepared with good bureaucrats, good officers
[49:14] Speaker 1: to do that kind of thing, identifying problems recommending solutions. One,
[49:18] Speaker 1: since you mentioned the Cargill Review Committee report, you know,
[49:22] Speaker 1: I became a defense correspondent in the wake of Cargill,
[49:24] Speaker 1: like two thousand and four, you know, five years after Cargill,
[49:27] Speaker 1: and I remember that one of its recommendations was, of
[49:29] Speaker 1: course the Chief of Defense Staff, that India would benefit
[49:32] Speaker 1: from having a Chief of Defense Staff providing overall leadership, etc.
[49:36] Speaker 1: And every time that question came up in Parliament, the
[49:41] Speaker 1: standard answer from whoever was the Defense Minister at that
[49:44] Speaker 1: time would be that this is a big decision and
[49:49] Speaker 1: consultations are taking place with all parties and consensus is
[49:52] Speaker 1: being evolved before a decision like this is being taken. Now,
[49:56] Speaker 1: I don't know if that consensus had come when the
[49:58] Speaker 1: Modi government finally decided, you know, stop this bullshit, we
[50:01] Speaker 1: are going to have a Chief of Defense stuff. You know,
[50:03] Speaker 1: my sense is no, there was no consensus there, okay,
[50:07] Speaker 1: someone like It took someone like a Modi who happened
[50:11] Speaker 1: to be in office at that time, to say that, listen,
[50:13] Speaker 1: why hasn't this big decision, big you know, reform recommended
[50:17] Speaker 1: by the case of Romanium Committee been implemented. You've implemented
[50:22] Speaker 1: so many other things, why not this? And he took
[50:25] Speaker 1: the opportunity to say, listen, I'm going to do it.
[50:27] Speaker 1: He used his political capital to say I don't care
[50:29] Speaker 1: about what anybody else is saying. I'm going to do it.
[50:32] Speaker 1: Why hasn't it happened for twenty years? And so he
[50:34] Speaker 1: went ahead and did it. So I think I think
[50:36] Speaker 1: it also takes a little bit of political authority. And
[50:39] Speaker 1: it's not just about mode. It could be any prime minister.
[50:42] Speaker 1: It could have been the upa Post two thousand and
[50:44] Speaker 1: nine when it had bigger numbers as well. To do
[50:46] Speaker 1: something like this, it requires a little bit of a
[50:49] Speaker 1: disruptive mindset as well to push through big reforms, which
[50:52] Speaker 1: can be risky at the end of the day. So
[50:54] Speaker 1: I think also that's also something that will play a part.
[50:56] Speaker 2: In it, definitely. All right, let's end this episode on
[50:59] Speaker 2: that note then, Thanks SHIFT, great chat as always, and
[51:02] Speaker 2: I hope we've given an overview of the larger picture
[51:06] Speaker 2: of you actually, of many things that we've discussed on
[51:09] Speaker 2: this podcast over several episodes, So thanks Shift, thanks to
[51:14] Speaker 2: our producer, and other thanks to our viewers and listeners.
[51:16] Speaker 2: This is the last episode of the year, so I'll
[51:19] Speaker 2: do the cliche thing that I do with all my
[51:21] Speaker 2: colleagues and thirty first when I'm leaving office is that
[51:24] Speaker 2: I'll see you next year. That's it for this week's Defensese.
[51:27] Speaker 2: For more, tune in next year. Till then, stay safe
[51:29] Speaker 2: and do not cross any boundaries. As the passport

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