# Russia’s Su-57 ‘Googly’: A Strategic Opportunity or a Risky Distraction for India? | In Our Defence, S02, Ep 50

An episode of [In Our Defence](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1617244439), 13 Dec 2024, 53 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/63299612/13_dec_24_defence_13_dec_128.mp3

What fifth-generation fighter jet should India invest in—the Russian Su-57 or the American F-35? This question has taken centre stage following a calculated pitch by Russian state media, spearheaded by Sputnik, touting the Su-57 as a ‘superior option’ for India. But is this merely a tactical move, or does it hold real strategic merit? The timing of Russia's push is quite interesting too. President Vladimir Putin is slated to visit New Delhi in early 2025 for the 23rd annual India-Russia bilateral summit. Against this backdrop, the Sputnik India tweets have reignited debate over India’s potential acquisition of a fifth-generation fighter jet. It presented the Su-57 as an attractive alternative to the F-35 and an essential complement to India’s "Make in India" initiative. But is this a sincere offer or a cleverly crafted gambit? The pitch also comes when India is grappling with delays in its domestic fighter programs, such as the Tejas Mark 1A and the ambitious AMCA, which remain in the prototype stage. These setbacks create a fertile ground for foreign lobbying, but should India let its long-term vision for indigenous defence manufacturing take a backseat? On this episode of In Our Defence, host Dev Goswami and defence expert Shiv Aroor analyse Russia’s ‘googly’ pitch for the Su-57. How would acquiring this jet impact India’s indigenous AMCA project? Given its current defense strategy, how realistic is the prospect of India considering the Su-57—or even the F-35? Tune in! Binge our earlier episodes on fighter jets here: Military Equipment To Conflicts: How India-Russia Friendship Has Endured Ups & Downs: https://podcasts.indiatoday.in...&-history/in-our-defence/military-equipment-to-conflicts-how-india-russia-friendship-has-endured-ups-downs-in-our-defence-s02-ep-30-1047333-2024-07-11 Why Indian Air Force is in hunt for fighter jets all over again: https://podcasts.indiatoday.in...&-history/in-our-defence/why-indian-air-force-is-in-hunt-for-fighter-jets-all-over-again-in-our-defence-s02-ep-45-1117371-2024-11-08 Produced by Anna Priyadarshini Sound mix by Sachin Dwivedi

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: This is India Today podcasts.
[0:05] Speaker 2: India is never going to choose the mid thirty five
[0:07] Speaker 2: because the mid thirty five is now perceived as a
[0:09] Speaker 2: legacy fighter.
[0:10] Speaker 1: It's not going to happen.
[0:11] Speaker 2: So I feel that this, you know, whether we're talking
[0:14] Speaker 2: about the Sputnik tweets or the columns that have been
[0:17] Speaker 2: written by some journalists, you know, saying is India considering
[0:20] Speaker 2: this fifty seven? I think this is all a kind
[0:23] Speaker 2: of googly this is Russia kind of you know, throwing
[0:26] Speaker 2: this into the ring, saying you know, why are you
[0:28] Speaker 2: even considering all these fourth generation fighters when we can offer.
[0:32] Speaker 1: You the latest fighter.
[0:34] Speaker 2: They see chatters saying tag se nto and you guys
[0:38] Speaker 2: are talking about AMCA. What makes you think AMCA will
[0:40] Speaker 2: come by twenty twenty seven? And it's all unofficial exactly.
[0:45] Speaker 3: You know.
[0:45] Speaker 2: The Eurasian Times has some column by some Indian journalists.
[0:48] Speaker 2: They've also written some extended columns. You know, should India
[0:51] Speaker 2: be looking at are struck at a column?
[0:53] Speaker 1: Hello? By the way, we are not. We are nowhere
[0:55] Speaker 1: to be left behind.
[0:56] Speaker 2: So that is the power of planting a seed like
[0:58] Speaker 2: this and seeing where it goes. And they all look
[1:01] Speaker 2: at India as paradise because India is a is a
[1:03] Speaker 2: country that loves to buy it all, you know, Like
[1:05] Speaker 2: I said, our inventory is like a utopia for weapons
[1:09] Speaker 2: suppliers because India buys everything.
[1:12] Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome to Another Defense, a weekly podcast on
[1:15] Speaker 4: all things well defense, where I They've go Swami, your host,
[1:20] Speaker 4: along with senior journalist Shivaru, break down the world of
[1:23] Speaker 4: conflicts that range from the subtle to the brute. We
[1:26] Speaker 4: bring you nuances and perspectives that will inform and at
[1:29] Speaker 4: times provoke.
[1:34] Speaker 1: This is In Our Defense.
[1:41] Speaker 4: Hello and welcome to the fiftieth episode of In Our Defense,
[1:43] Speaker 4: A grand half century shift.
[1:45] Speaker 1: Fifty episodes. I can't believe it.
[1:46] Speaker 2: That went by so fast, fifty episodes and without really
[1:51] Speaker 2: you know, repeating any major topics. We've really kept up
[1:55] Speaker 2: with the news, and I think we've done good by
[1:58] Speaker 2: our listeners and viewers.
[1:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, I just wanted to count. What's it been like
[2:00] Speaker 1: for you?
[2:01] Speaker 4: You know, I think this is the first time you're
[2:02] Speaker 4: doing a podcast, and I think this is season two
[2:05] Speaker 4: and season one we had Abisha butala uh and then
[2:08] Speaker 4: we caught you on board and you were quite enthusiastic.
[2:11] Speaker 4: I think actually because and and me producer. I think
[2:14] Speaker 4: both of us were a bit he will he won't
[2:16] Speaker 4: he because we also knew the kind of, you know,
[2:18] Speaker 4: the day job that you have running a TV newsroom,
[2:21] Speaker 4: so to kind of you know, get that one hour
[2:23] Speaker 4: out every week. But you are like, you know, all
[2:25] Speaker 4: for it, like, yeah, I one ar every week. I'll
[2:27] Speaker 4: definitely do it.
[2:28] Speaker 2: No, because you know this this fits right into you know,
[2:30] Speaker 2: what I love to do. Obviously, I love to talk
[2:34] Speaker 2: and I do enough of that for a living in
[2:36] Speaker 2: my day job, as you called it, which is right.
[2:38] Speaker 2: But but I think, I think what we've both proven
[2:42] Speaker 2: there is that this podcast fills a clear void that
[2:46] Speaker 2: was out there. I mean, there's a there's a whole
[2:47] Speaker 2: lot of good quality content in terms of defense, but
[2:51] Speaker 2: most of it is quite dodgy, quite dubious, not very
[2:55] Speaker 2: accurate information. But I think in our defense has proven
[2:59] Speaker 2: that you can have good sober conversations. And what I
[3:03] Speaker 2: love most is that the feedback that we always get
[3:05] Speaker 2: is that we call a spade a spade. Yes, you
[3:07] Speaker 2: know we you know, we take no orders from anyone.
[3:10] Speaker 2: We are happy to drag the government through the calls
[3:13] Speaker 2: whenever we feel like it, and when when the time
[3:15] Speaker 2: is right, and I think that's really important, you know,
[3:19] Speaker 2: you know, in a sensitive, sensitive topic and domain like defense,
[3:23] Speaker 2: to be able to you know, fearlessly call it out,
[3:26] Speaker 2: you know, especially at a time when not many people
[3:29] Speaker 2: actually do. That, I think is something that we should
[3:32] Speaker 2: be very proud of. And it reflects in the kind
[3:34] Speaker 2: of comments.
[3:35] Speaker 4: That we get on a daily definitely, because you know,
[3:38] Speaker 4: I think, and this is something we've We've even said
[3:40] Speaker 4: on several episodes that we try not to have debates
[3:42] Speaker 4: per se. It's not about you know, what's right, what's wrong,
[3:45] Speaker 4: what we think is right and what we think is wrong.
[3:47] Speaker 4: It's more about shift bringing the twenty audios of experience
[3:51] Speaker 4: that he has covering the world of defense and giving
[3:53] Speaker 4: that sort of context, which is oftentimes very very necessary
[3:57] Speaker 4: to things that look very simplistic on the sois. But
[4:00] Speaker 4: then when you get that context, and even I at
[4:02] Speaker 4: times have been very surprised when you give give us
[4:04] Speaker 4: that layers of you know, context and back information and
[4:07] Speaker 4: background information that kind of helps you understand the subject
[4:11] Speaker 4: at heart and the way.
[4:12] Speaker 1: Things are changing in defense.
[4:13] Speaker 2: Even I'm learning, and we're both learning together because even
[4:16] Speaker 2: though I bring those twenty years, I mean, look look
[4:18] Speaker 2: at where things are with defense right now and the
[4:20] Speaker 2: way things are changing. So I think, you know, and
[4:23] Speaker 2: I hope our viewers and listeners benefit from the fact
[4:25] Speaker 2: that you and I both do a lot of updated
[4:28] Speaker 2: research before we approach each episode, which I think also reflects.
[4:32] Speaker 4: Yes, in fact, you know, because you said that there
[4:35] Speaker 4: was a topic that I want to discuss this weeak.
[4:37] Speaker 4: But you just told me last night that hey, let's
[4:39] Speaker 4: avoid this because I need to read up a bit
[4:40] Speaker 4: more on this now. You know, for our listeners and viewers,
[4:43] Speaker 4: that would be a bit surprising. Hey, Schev needs to
[4:45] Speaker 4: read something about defense, but yeah, that's right, he does. Yeah,
[4:47] Speaker 4: because the topic was such, I won't reveal it obviously,
[4:49] Speaker 4: we'll try and do that in the next episode. Was
[4:51] Speaker 4: such that he said, Yeah, I get it, but want
[4:54] Speaker 4: some new information, want some latest information that we can
[4:57] Speaker 4: We owe it.
[4:58] Speaker 2: To our audiences to you know, have absolutely the most
[5:01] Speaker 2: up to date information as accurate and you know, updated
[5:05] Speaker 2: as possible, because people aren't listening to us in the
[5:09] Speaker 2: numbers that they are for nothing. You know, there's a
[5:12] Speaker 2: certain standard that they expect for us and from us,
[5:15] Speaker 2: and I don't think you and I will ever let
[5:16] Speaker 2: them down in that rispe. Right, So enough talking about
[5:19] Speaker 2: fifty episodes market and a reminder for that, yeah, and
[5:22] Speaker 2: enough talking about US.
[5:23] Speaker 4: I think I think the congratulations shift congratulations to our
[5:26] Speaker 4: listeners and our producer.
[5:29] Speaker 1: This week we'll talk about Russia.
[5:32] Speaker 4: Why because in the words of Russia Mantri Rajhnat saying
[5:35] Speaker 4: Russia and India's friendship is higher in the highest mountains
[5:39] Speaker 4: and the deeper in the deepest ocean. He said this
[5:42] Speaker 4: during a visit to Russia recently, a three or four
[5:44] Speaker 4: year visit during which he also attended I think there
[5:48] Speaker 4: was a launch of a ship, of circummissioning of a
[5:52] Speaker 4: ship Irons two shield. The reason we'll talk about Russia
[5:55] Speaker 4: on this episode is sort of what is happening on
[5:58] Speaker 4: the sidelines, not sidelines when we say when we write
[6:01] Speaker 4: the word on the sidelines of a visit, but more
[6:04] Speaker 4: so that a Russian back, not back to the Russian
[6:07] Speaker 4: state propaganda out it basically Spartnik. They put a series
[6:10] Speaker 4: of peats that shift, you know, sort of sort of
[6:12] Speaker 4: pointed me to when he said we should talk about
[6:14] Speaker 4: this sort of selling their sou fifty seven, the fifth
[6:18] Speaker 4: general generation fighter or jet that they have and basically
[6:22] Speaker 4: saying why that would make such a great addition to
[6:24] Speaker 4: Indian Air Forces fleet and why should seriously look at it,
[6:27] Speaker 4: also saying that you know, when it comes to fifth
[6:30] Speaker 4: generation aircraft, a fighter aircraft, the Indian Air Force in
[6:33] Speaker 4: India really have two options to look for, the Russian
[6:36] Speaker 4: through fifty seven and the American F thirty five. I
[6:39] Speaker 4: want to talk about why this is happening, but before
[6:42] Speaker 4: we do that, I want to actually talk about Ironist
[6:44] Speaker 4: two shield because I wanted to talk about this on
[6:46] Speaker 4: this episode, but I could not find a peg.
[6:48] Speaker 1: Because we've talked about Indian Navy.
[6:50] Speaker 4: We've talked about Indian Navy Summardy sorry the fleet, Indian
[6:53] Speaker 4: Navy summary in Indian Navy's ships and how self reliant,
[6:56] Speaker 4: not self reliant, but how relianed on Indian made ships
[7:00] Speaker 4: the Indian Navy has become over over several years. And
[7:04] Speaker 4: we've also talked about India and Russia's deep partnership on
[7:07] Speaker 4: episode thirty which I've noted which will have a link
[7:10] Speaker 4: to in our show notes of how that partnership evolved
[7:13] Speaker 4: through many ups and downs. It was a very nice,
[7:15] Speaker 4: deep discussion that our listeners should definitely definitely refer to
[7:19] Speaker 4: so I really could not think of a way to
[7:21] Speaker 4: kind of expand more on that, more on this question
[7:23] Speaker 4: that I'm about to ask you. But since you said
[7:25] Speaker 4: we'll do this, I thought great, My question then can
[7:28] Speaker 4: come why.
[7:30] Speaker 1: Are we still getting Russia to make for us?
[7:32] Speaker 2: So it's a really good question, but there's a pretty
[7:35] Speaker 2: solid answer. So in twenty nineteen, I happened to be
[7:40] Speaker 2: at the Anter shipyard in Kalaningrad where Rajana thing was
[7:43] Speaker 2: for the commissioning where I reported. I remember with the
[7:47] Speaker 2: two unfinished hulls of those ships that were behind me.
[7:50] Speaker 2: Now Russia had basically constructed the hulls but then didn't
[7:55] Speaker 2: finish them up into full warships because the Russian navy,
[7:59] Speaker 2: if I'm not missed, didn't need them more. They were
[8:02] Speaker 2: looking for customers and they had these half built shells
[8:05] Speaker 2: of ships lying there, and India of course needs these ships. Now,
[8:12] Speaker 2: the ilist to shield is what is called an advanced
[8:14] Speaker 2: talwar class frigate. The Indian Navy already operates six of these,
[8:21] Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken, or more, and had a requirement
[8:26] Speaker 2: for a certain number more of these ships. So basically,
[8:29] Speaker 2: and you know, the relationship between India and Russia has
[8:31] Speaker 2: always been very close, very transactional. Of course, Pessa speaks
[8:36] Speaker 2: louder than anything else. But it made a lot of
[8:39] Speaker 2: sense because there were these two hulls just sitting there,
[8:43] Speaker 2: which basically meant that all that needed to be done
[8:45] Speaker 2: is that Russia just needed to outfit them, construct the
[8:48] Speaker 2: rest of the ship, and they'd be ready for delivery,
[8:51] Speaker 2: which is borne out by the fact that those two
[8:53] Speaker 2: hulls were sitting there in twenty nineteen when I went,
[8:55] Speaker 2: and now you've got the first ship that's been commissioned.
[8:57] Speaker 2: So in five years everything was done, you know, which
[9:00] Speaker 2: is which is pretty good. And in that time there
[9:03] Speaker 2: has been the pandemic, there's been the Russia Ukraine War,
[9:06] Speaker 2: so the actual time would have been far less. But
[9:08] Speaker 2: five years, given all that Russia has been dealing with,
[9:11] Speaker 2: is actually still something to be thankful for. One more
[9:14] Speaker 2: such ship will be built. India ideally would not have
[9:19] Speaker 2: wanted to buy ships any more ships from Russia in
[9:23] Speaker 2: this way, but because those hulls were already ready and built,
[9:26] Speaker 2: it just made sense, you know, in view of time, economics,
[9:30] Speaker 2: et cetera. The good news is two more such ships
[9:34] Speaker 2: are going to be built here in India. So you've
[9:36] Speaker 2: got these two ships that are going to be going
[9:38] Speaker 2: to be coming from Russia, but two more such ships,
[9:40] Speaker 2: which are called the Advanced Talva class, will be built
[9:43] Speaker 2: in India if I'm not mistaken by goa shipyard, so
[9:47] Speaker 2: that that construction will also happen. So so it's not
[9:49] Speaker 2: all bad news. It's not one hundred percent import project.
[9:53] Speaker 2: Fifty percent of it is actually going to come from India.
[9:56] Speaker 2: So so I think it's overall a really good project
[9:59] Speaker 2: because these these vessels, which are called the Krivak class
[10:03] Speaker 2: frigates from Russia. Our ships that the Indian Navy absolutely loves,
[10:08] Speaker 2: Like I said, tala Ions, Thrishool iron S, teig Irons,
[10:12] Speaker 2: three cun et cetera, are already in service. They are
[10:14] Speaker 2: among the ships that sail all over the world, very
[10:17] Speaker 2: very reliable platforms, and the Indian Navy always knew that
[10:21] Speaker 2: it wanted more because these are pretty compact ships that
[10:24] Speaker 2: packer real punch. They've got a lot of you know,
[10:27] Speaker 2: a lot of guns and missile power on board them.
[10:31] Speaker 2: So the Indian Navy felt that it would make sense
[10:34] Speaker 2: since we already operate a few of these let's get
[10:36] Speaker 2: a few more while we can. And it just made
[10:38] Speaker 2: sense to finish those two hulls and build two more.
[10:41] Speaker 1: In India, right.
[10:41] Speaker 4: I guess that answers it, because yeah, I was wondering
[10:43] Speaker 4: because if you look at Indian Navy's fleet of ships,
[10:46] Speaker 4: I think ninety percent of them would be Indian origin,
[10:49] Speaker 4: Indian made, Indian origin. So I was wondering, why would
[10:51] Speaker 4: you want a ship to be made in Russia then, right,
[10:54] Speaker 4: So while all of this was happening, there was also
[10:56] Speaker 4: an announcement made that President Putin would be visiting India
[11:00] Speaker 4: early next year. I think in Jan Feb. The MEA
[11:02] Speaker 4: said the dates have to be worked out. What he's
[11:04] Speaker 4: coming for sure, it's an annual Indian India Russia summit
[11:08] Speaker 4: that happens. PMOD was there for a similar summit this year.
[11:12] Speaker 4: So while this was happening, that announcement was made about
[11:14] Speaker 4: put In coming to India, Raja saying was that the
[11:17] Speaker 4: ship is commissioned. And you have this tweet thread put
[11:21] Speaker 4: out by Spartanik's India handle basically selling the Russian to
[11:25] Speaker 4: fifty seven. At one point even called out that India
[11:29] Speaker 4: has been looking for a fifth generation fighter jet. We've
[11:31] Speaker 4: discussed this previously on an episode where we talked about amcar,
[11:34] Speaker 4: the advanced medium combat aircraft that is right to Numery.
[11:38] Speaker 4: Prototype is development design sort of a phase. It's more
[11:40] Speaker 4: of a concept than anything right now. That's basically India
[11:44] Speaker 4: sort of a moonshot attempt at developing its own fifth
[11:46] Speaker 4: generation fighter fighter fighter jet.
[11:49] Speaker 1: So that tweet thread said many things, one of.
[11:52] Speaker 4: Which essentially was that when it comes to fifth generation
[11:55] Speaker 4: fighter jets, India only has two options, that is the
[11:58] Speaker 4: TOO fifty seven and the fifty five from the US.
[12:02] Speaker 4: The tweet tread also had some very interesting choice of keywords,
[12:06] Speaker 4: which I thought was just perfect.
[12:07] Speaker 1: For the Indian audience.
[12:08] Speaker 4: There was making India, there was production in India, there
[12:12] Speaker 4: was exports. It was as though, like, you know, this
[12:13] Speaker 4: is like the complete package for you. If you remember
[12:15] Speaker 4: a previous episode where we talked about a Boeing fighter jet,
[12:19] Speaker 4: the F twenty two if I'm twenty one, if I'm
[12:21] Speaker 4: not wrong, I forgot the name, where they have this
[12:24] Speaker 4: fancy page for a for a fighter jet completely made perfectly.
[12:28] Speaker 1: For the indiannet.
[12:28] Speaker 4: It was even though the Internet was not even a
[12:30] Speaker 4: pros Boeing for like an okay, give.
[12:31] Speaker 1: Us Yeah, I sorry talking about it.
[12:33] Speaker 4: Sorry, yeah, right, So anyway, this tweet comes and I
[12:38] Speaker 4: tend to wonder why so also, you're getting a very
[12:40] Speaker 4: sort of a live view into how the global arms
[12:43] Speaker 4: negotiation and sales pitches work. You know, Oh, we have
[12:46] Speaker 4: a president going over there. Let's create some noise in
[12:48] Speaker 4: the media, because we are pretty sure this will be
[12:50] Speaker 4: tacked up by the right sort of you know, channelsen
[12:53] Speaker 4: and they're like, we're discussing on this podcast, for example,
[12:55] Speaker 4: there will be some noise about it.
[12:56] Speaker 1: Even though India might.
[12:57] Speaker 4: Not be looking to discuss this during Putin's business, but
[13:00] Speaker 4: this will at least set some point put this on
[13:02] Speaker 4: the on the minds of officials of the air force.
[13:05] Speaker 4: So maybe the Indian Foreign Ministry, Defense ministry, et et cetera,
[13:07] Speaker 4: et cetera.
[13:08] Speaker 1: What do you make of what's happening with this tweet thread?
[13:10] Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's a little perplexing.
[13:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, you know Sputnik, which is you know, all all
[13:15] Speaker 2: Russian media are basically state media arms of the Russian government.
[13:19] Speaker 2: Uh uh, And therefore, you know, and it isn't just Sputnik.
[13:23] Speaker 2: There are you know, there are there are other Russian
[13:24] Speaker 2: outlets which have you know, proposed this idea that the
[13:29] Speaker 2: Sukoi Su fifty seven fifth generation fighter aircraft is uh
[13:34] Speaker 2: is something that India should consider for its air force.
[13:37] Speaker 2: The reason why this is perplexing me and perplexing a
[13:40] Speaker 2: lot of others is there are multiple reasons, and let's
[13:44] Speaker 2: go through all of them one by one. Number one,
[13:47] Speaker 2: the the Su fifty seven is basically Russia's latest operational fighter.
[13:52] Speaker 1: It's a fifth generation fighter.
[13:53] Speaker 2: There are about thirty odd that are currently in service,
[13:56] Speaker 2: and there are many more that are on order.
[13:58] Speaker 1: By the Russian Air Force.
[14:01] Speaker 2: Not many may remember many people, I'm sure no, but
[14:04] Speaker 2: not many people remember that the Indian government and HL
[14:08] Speaker 2: was actually part of this program many years ago. So
[14:12] Speaker 2: HL had a partnership with Sukhoi Sukoy's mother company actually
[14:17] Speaker 2: called United Aircraft Corporation UAC. Way back in two thousand
[14:21] Speaker 2: and seven, they had actually formed a joint venture. India
[14:25] Speaker 2: and Russia were partners in the aircraft that became the
[14:29] Speaker 2: sou fifty seven, and under the terms of that agreement,
[14:32] Speaker 2: Russia would develop what became the Su fifty seven now
[14:36] Speaker 2: and a derivative of that would be built under a
[14:40] Speaker 2: partnership between India and Russia, which India called, you know,
[14:44] Speaker 2: in a very anodyne way, the FGFA.
[14:46] Speaker 1: Fifth Generation fighter aircraft.
[14:48] Speaker 2: You know, they didn't want to give it any sexy
[14:50] Speaker 2: name or any massalah, so it was just called FGFA.
[14:53] Speaker 2: Somehow during negotiations between the two countries over workshare over
[14:59] Speaker 2: you know, technology over, you know, who would do what
[15:03] Speaker 2: in the aircraft over over about a decade, things just
[15:06] Speaker 2: kind of unraveled and that entire partnership collapse in India
[15:10] Speaker 2: pulled out. The thing is India had already put in
[15:12] Speaker 2: quite a bit of money into the project. This is
[15:13] Speaker 2: something that not a lot of people know, but a
[15:16] Speaker 2: considerable amount of money had been put in by India,
[15:19] Speaker 2: and which is which is not not uncommon, because there
[15:23] Speaker 2: are a lot of projects that Russia has built using
[15:27] Speaker 2: Indian money because they've got the ideas, they've got the knowledge,
[15:30] Speaker 2: they've got the expertise, they've got the aerospace scientists doing
[15:33] Speaker 2: all this stuff, but they don't have the money to
[15:35] Speaker 2: get these projects off the ground. So they've always had
[15:38] Speaker 2: a willing sort of investor slash customer in India. So
[15:43] Speaker 2: whether it is ships, whether it is submarines two thirty
[15:46] Speaker 2: greatest example UH and the and the the. The FGFA
[15:50] Speaker 2: was the latest example uh uh. In Russia, it was
[15:54] Speaker 2: called the PAKFA, which is basically a Russian acronym for
[15:57] Speaker 2: you know, the multiplicity of technologies that go.
[15:59] Speaker 1: In to a fifth generation fighter aircraft.
[16:01] Speaker 2: Anyway, to cut a long story shot, India realized that
[16:05] Speaker 2: this wasn't working out. The Russians were being obstinate in
[16:09] Speaker 2: terms of certain workshare issues, and so India pulled out.
[16:13] Speaker 2: It was around the same time that the AMCRA had
[16:16] Speaker 2: kind of solidified in terms of what it was going
[16:19] Speaker 2: to look like. There was a reasonable amount of confidence
[16:22] Speaker 2: in India about being able to pull off something as complicated
[16:26] Speaker 2: as an AMCA, and therefore both these things coincided. India
[16:30] Speaker 2: decided we will we will go with the AMCA and
[16:32] Speaker 2: we will not do the FGFA. Now let's flash forward
[16:36] Speaker 2: all these years. You suddenly have a situation where we,
[16:40] Speaker 2: like we discussed just a few episodes ago, the Indian
[16:44] Speaker 2: Air Force is now looking for fighters you know where
[16:47] Speaker 2: it has this It is intending to go in for
[16:50] Speaker 2: another global contest which will involve, you know, a kind
[16:54] Speaker 2: of beauty pageant of fighters including the Raphaele, the Typhoon,
[16:59] Speaker 2: the F fifty Eagle to and other fighters. And theoretically
[17:04] Speaker 2: there are some Russian fighters also in this context, namely
[17:07] Speaker 2: the Mid thirty five and the Sooth thirty five. But
[17:10] Speaker 2: Russia has I think realized in a very realistic sort
[17:14] Speaker 2: of way, and I think they're absolutely right that they've
[17:17] Speaker 2: got absolutely no chance of, you know, winning any more
[17:22] Speaker 2: aircraft deals with India fighter aircraft deals with India in
[17:25] Speaker 2: the current configuration. India is never going to choose the
[17:28] Speaker 2: South thirty five because we already have the Sooth thirty
[17:31] Speaker 2: so why would we choose a Russian aircraft. India is
[17:34] Speaker 2: never going to choose the Mid thirty five because Mid
[17:36] Speaker 2: thirty five is now perceived as a legacy fighter.
[17:39] Speaker 1: It's not going to happen.
[17:40] Speaker 2: So I feel that this, you know, whether we're talking
[17:43] Speaker 2: about the Sputnik tweets or the columns that have been
[17:47] Speaker 2: written by some journalists, you know, saying, is India considering
[17:50] Speaker 2: the sou fifty seven, I think this is all a
[17:53] Speaker 2: kind of googly, you know, this is this is Russia
[17:56] Speaker 2: kind of you know, throwing this into the ring, saying,
[17:59] Speaker 2: you know, why even considering all these fourth generation fighters
[18:03] Speaker 2: when we can offer you the latest fighter. You know,
[18:07] Speaker 2: this this in my view. And look, there will be
[18:10] Speaker 2: those who say, oh, this is just a Sputnik tweet,
[18:12] Speaker 2: doesn't need to be taken seriously. You know, this is
[18:14] Speaker 2: just Russian propaganda, This is just this is just playing
[18:17] Speaker 2: mind games with India. All of that may be true,
[18:20] Speaker 2: but the fact is the Russian government industrial military complex
[18:25] Speaker 2: is highly tuned towards trying to get as much as
[18:29] Speaker 2: it possibly can out of the Indian military. It is
[18:31] Speaker 2: not happy with the fact that, you know, India has
[18:35] Speaker 2: increasingly diversified its supply base and is getting aircraft from
[18:39] Speaker 2: the United States, getting aircraft from other places, getting fighters
[18:43] Speaker 2: from France, which it has done before but not at
[18:45] Speaker 2: this scale, is now considering American fighters, uh. And it
[18:49] Speaker 2: doesn't like that. And it feels that what was once
[18:53] Speaker 2: its domain domain, you know, and once it's something that
[18:58] Speaker 2: it controlled, uh is it has lost its grip on that.
[19:02] Speaker 2: And it knows that it cannot win India's delight or
[19:07] Speaker 2: confidence with with a mid thirty five or a sou
[19:09] Speaker 2: thirty five, which I are you know, bread and butter
[19:12] Speaker 2: fighters now, so they're trying to sex things up now
[19:15] Speaker 2: by kind of floating this balloon of the SU fifty seven.
[19:18] Speaker 2: This appears to be Russia saying, look, we know that
[19:21] Speaker 2: you pulled out of the partnership way back in the
[19:24] Speaker 2: twenty tens because you know, our workshare agreement didn't work out,
[19:29] Speaker 2: et cetera. But now look, the fighter is ready. Now
[19:32] Speaker 2: we're not talking about partnership, et cetera. Now we're saying
[19:35] Speaker 2: the fighter is ready. The Russian Air Force is inducting it.
[19:39] Speaker 2: They have flown missions in the Ukraine War. You can
[19:42] Speaker 2: see them having, you know, notching up their combat hours.
[19:47] Speaker 2: So therefore the Russians are speaking with a sense of confidence.
[19:49] Speaker 2: Now Ki yet Tayah ready here, combat platform here, Now
[19:53] Speaker 2: you can consider taking it and building it in India
[19:55] Speaker 2: because it's nothing like what we've built before. This is
[19:58] Speaker 2: the next generation. That's what I think the Russians are
[20:01] Speaker 2: doing there. It's it's it's a kind of it's a
[20:03] Speaker 2: kind of Google. I would call it a Google. They
[20:05] Speaker 2: are doing it through Sputnik, and you know, some some
[20:09] Speaker 2: prominent columnists comparing it with the F thirty five, saying
[20:13] Speaker 2: there are no other operational fighters available to India except
[20:15] Speaker 2: the F thirty five. All very cleverly done because it
[20:18] Speaker 2: is designed to trigger chatter. They certainly have booked Tuskspaces
[20:23] Speaker 2: doing an entire episode on it, which is it's fun
[20:25] Speaker 2: to talk about, but obviously on this episode we will
[20:27] Speaker 2: be very realistic about the chances of something like this happening.
[20:30] Speaker 2: So this is Russia basically saying we're not going to
[20:33] Speaker 2: win another fighter aircraft contract unless we change the game
[20:37] Speaker 2: a little bit and be a little aggressive, and I
[20:39] Speaker 2: think this is what that is.
[20:40] Speaker 4: It's a very good point you made about the Russian
[20:42] Speaker 4: industry sort of not being happy with losing that grip
[20:45] Speaker 4: it had on defense applies to India because that's something
[20:48] Speaker 4: that was there in this tweet threat by Sputnik, which
[20:50] Speaker 4: I think where they mentioned that, oh, there's a history
[20:52] Speaker 4: of successful partnerships and then they listed all the fighters
[20:54] Speaker 4: that we had seven, twenty nine and then shoot thirteen. So,
[20:58] Speaker 4: you know, just for some context of two, what you've
[21:01] Speaker 4: just said and what we'll talk about on this episode
[21:04] Speaker 4: more give us sort of a crash course into what
[21:06] Speaker 4: we've discussed previously fifth genation aircraft, which is what the
[21:09] Speaker 4: fifty seven is, and especially the trough fifty seven. And
[21:13] Speaker 4: for two, I think the best way for me and
[21:14] Speaker 4: for a listeners and used to understand is to compare
[21:16] Speaker 4: it to the aircraft that we have right now, the
[21:18] Speaker 4: best of which is the fel for example, right which
[21:20] Speaker 4: I think everyone refers to as sort of a four
[21:22] Speaker 4: point five generation fighter jet. So tell us about fifty
[21:25] Speaker 4: seven fifth generation fighter jets in general, and how does
[21:29] Speaker 4: two fifty seven compare to let's say the f thirty five.
[21:31] Speaker 1: And of course the effect Look.
[21:32] Speaker 2: You know, the lines between these so called generations of
[21:36] Speaker 2: fighters are largely quite blurred, but you know, accepted knowledge
[21:40] Speaker 2: or the understanding of what you know for fourth generation,
[21:43] Speaker 2: four point five generation, fifth generation, et cetera. World, it
[21:46] Speaker 2: means basically boils down to certain you know, key coore
[21:51] Speaker 2: sort of game changing technologies that differentiate one generation from
[21:55] Speaker 2: the other. Now, fifth generation fighters are differentiated from earlier
[22:01] Speaker 2: fighters like the Raphael and their fifteen, et cetera, which
[22:05] Speaker 2: are considered four four point five generation fighters. Uh from
[22:08] Speaker 2: the fact that there is a pronounced emphasis on all
[22:12] Speaker 2: around stealth, you know, from the shape of the aircraft
[22:15] Speaker 2: to low observable technologies and things like that. There is
[22:18] Speaker 2: a great emphasis on you know, network centric operations, a
[22:24] Speaker 2: lot of data fusion, uh, you know, not burdening the
[22:27] Speaker 2: pilot with too much, you know, but giving giving the
[22:31] Speaker 2: pilot enough data allowing him to be a you know,
[22:34] Speaker 2: a war fighter rather than a person who's you know,
[22:37] Speaker 2: flying a plane. A huge amount of linkages with satellites
[22:41] Speaker 2: all you know, the huge amount of three sixty degrees
[22:43] Speaker 2: domain awareness for a pilot. Those are the things that
[22:46] Speaker 2: are core technologies in a fifth generation fighter. So stealth
[22:51] Speaker 2: and networks network centric you know, domain awareness are two
[22:54] Speaker 2: things data fusion. Of course, like I said, certain other
[22:57] Speaker 2: technologies as well. Like I said, there's a blurred line.
[23:00] Speaker 2: Now we're already talking about six generation fighters as well,
[23:03] Speaker 2: where the sort of quote unquote game changing technologies there
[23:07] Speaker 2: are considered things like multi spectral stealth, you know, which
[23:11] Speaker 2: takes stealth to another another level altogether, manned unmanned teaming,
[23:16] Speaker 2: loyal wing man drones, which are there in fifth generation fighters. Also,
[23:20] Speaker 2: you know, things like being capable of launching hypersonic weapons,
[23:24] Speaker 2: directed energy weapons, you know, combat networking, etc. So there
[23:29] Speaker 2: are incremental technologies that make something from a fifth generation
[23:33] Speaker 2: to a sixth generation fighter. We don't need to concern
[23:35] Speaker 2: ourselves too much with that. But suffice it to say
[23:38] Speaker 2: that fifth generation fighter technology is not something that India
[23:44] Speaker 2: has currently. All our entire Indian Air Force fleet right
[23:47] Speaker 2: now is if you look at the lower end, we've
[23:50] Speaker 2: got mid twenty ones. And you know, there was some
[23:53] Speaker 2: news recently in the media saying that because of delays
[23:56] Speaker 2: in the stages, the mid twenty ones are going to
[23:58] Speaker 2: be extended again. It's going to be a world record
[24:01] Speaker 2: in terms of how long we've used these aircraft, which
[24:03] Speaker 2: is amazing. But we've the Indian Air Force fleet is
[24:06] Speaker 2: basically a fourth generation fleet. There are some incremental technologies
[24:11] Speaker 2: like the Raphle which offer a slightly more advanced capability,
[24:15] Speaker 2: but we do not have any fifth generation fighters in
[24:18] Speaker 2: terms of some of the things that I've mentioned, stealth
[24:20] Speaker 2: and all.
[24:21] Speaker 1: Those other things.
[24:22] Speaker 2: Now the Sukhoi fifty seven is a stealth fighter. There's
[24:27] Speaker 2: a huge amount of debate. There's always a lot of
[24:29] Speaker 2: debate when it comes to fifth generation fighters. Are they
[24:32] Speaker 2: really fifth generation? Is it really stealth? You know, Okay,
[24:35] Speaker 2: it looks like a stealth aircraft, but you know, it
[24:39] Speaker 2: doesn't have a very small radar cross section, Its engines
[24:42] Speaker 2: are visible. You know, there are all sorts of other issues.
[24:44] Speaker 2: If you look at you know, aviation articles and aviation
[24:47] Speaker 2: discussion forums. It's fascinating to see how they dissect Chinese
[24:51] Speaker 2: and Russian fifth generation fighters, you know, because the Americans
[24:55] Speaker 2: don't like anybody else building anything of even remotely decent
[24:59] Speaker 2: quality when it comes to the domain of you know,
[25:02] Speaker 2: advanced fighters, which America justifiably believes it is its kingdom right.
[25:07] Speaker 2: But what Russia has demonstrated is that it is a
[25:10] Speaker 2: reasonably capable fighter, does demonstrate fifth generation qualities, and is
[25:17] Speaker 2: a fighter that is most importantly in full rate production,
[25:21] Speaker 2: is in service with the Russian Air Force, and is
[25:26] Speaker 2: clearly a modern fighter because it has entered service not
[25:29] Speaker 2: very long ago, and therefore that is an important plus
[25:32] Speaker 2: for Russia. The other important opportunity that Russia sees, and
[25:37] Speaker 2: I think that's the reason why we're seeing these columns
[25:39] Speaker 2: suddenly talk about the fifty seven under consideration by India.
[25:43] Speaker 1: Et cetera, is the AMCA.
[25:47] Speaker 2: You know, I think Russia sees an opportunity a to
[25:50] Speaker 2: disrupt the MRFA contest one hundred and fourteen fourth generation
[25:54] Speaker 2: fighters by India.
[25:55] Speaker 1: They're saying, you know, we are ready. You don't even
[25:57] Speaker 1: need to look.
[25:58] Speaker 2: You know why they're basically saying, why choose a fourth
[26:02] Speaker 2: generation fighter when you can build your fifth generation fighter
[26:05] Speaker 2: and you can also develop your Amcar. Now that becomes
[26:09] Speaker 2: tricky for India because India had taken a call to
[26:12] Speaker 2: pursue its own homegrown fifth generation fighter concept called the Amcar,
[26:16] Speaker 2: because it did not want to consider anything else from
[26:19] Speaker 2: the outside. This Russian platform has been on offer to
[26:23] Speaker 2: India for many years, and like I explained in my
[26:25] Speaker 2: first answer, India was part of the program initially and
[26:28] Speaker 2: it departed that program. The F thirty five, which is
[26:31] Speaker 2: the largest fifth generation fighter aircraft program in history. Is
[26:36] Speaker 2: many say that has never been on offer to India.
[26:39] Speaker 2: As I've said on previous episodes, it has most definitely
[26:43] Speaker 2: been on offer to India. Should India, you know, pick
[26:45] Speaker 2: up the phone and say, listen, we don't want this
[26:47] Speaker 2: fifteen F twenty one rubbish, We want to go straight
[26:51] Speaker 2: in for the for an F thirty five, that would
[26:53] Speaker 2: have been a conversation.
[26:55] Speaker 1: But India had taken a very considered decision that we
[27:00] Speaker 1: are not going to join anybody else.
[27:03] Speaker 2: We're not going to buy anything from the outside when
[27:05] Speaker 2: it comes to this technology be we will not partner
[27:08] Speaker 2: with anyone from the outside. There have been opportunities to
[27:10] Speaker 2: partner with France, there have been opportunities pa Is to
[27:12] Speaker 2: partner with the with the British on the on the
[27:15] Speaker 2: tempest fifth generation fighter. India has basically said no, saying
[27:18] Speaker 2: that you know, we might, we might bring you guys
[27:21] Speaker 2: in for some consultancy and help us with a few
[27:23] Speaker 2: core technologies, but we want to do this ourselves and
[27:26] Speaker 2: that's what the AMCA is. So I don't I honestly
[27:30] Speaker 2: don't see that changing. Of course, there are opportunities, you know,
[27:33] Speaker 2: in a country like India, which has had a very
[27:35] Speaker 2: whimsical defense procurement system, and how many times have we
[27:39] Speaker 2: talked about that day, you know, any any large country
[27:41] Speaker 2: like Russia would always see an opportunity saying, look the
[27:44] Speaker 2: AMCA as per current.
[27:47] Speaker 1: You know, delivery guidelines.
[27:49] Speaker 2: I think there were a few reports recently quoting the
[27:51] Speaker 2: DRDO chief as well to say that the first AMCA
[27:55] Speaker 2: prototype will roll out or maybe have a first flight
[27:57] Speaker 2: sometime in twenty twenty seven, twenty eight, and the inductions
[28:00] Speaker 2: will happen around the middle of the next decade. So
[28:03] Speaker 2: you're basically you basically have Russia looking at India and
[28:07] Speaker 2: saying Gara salka window before you know, delivery and production
[28:12] Speaker 2: and stuff like that, which means that we've in this
[28:14] Speaker 2: tenure thing. There's uncertainty and it's an opportunity for us.
[28:17] Speaker 2: So let's float this idea. Let's fly some kuites as
[28:21] Speaker 2: far as fifty seven is concerned, and who knows India
[28:23] Speaker 2: may bite, you know, who knows things may change put
[28:26] Speaker 2: in and more. They are really good friends, you know,
[28:29] Speaker 2: you know, these things are never just about requirements and
[28:32] Speaker 2: capabilities and missile care, fire kai and stuff. It's also
[28:35] Speaker 2: about body language and the fact that India and Russia
[28:38] Speaker 2: are closed. You know, maybe India, given its proximity to
[28:42] Speaker 2: the United States, will want to send out a gesture
[28:44] Speaker 2: that Russia, Russia is an old and you know, steady friend,
[28:48] Speaker 2: so who knows no harm in trying.
[28:50] Speaker 1: I think that's that's what this is, sort of.
[28:52] Speaker 4: Like the suit thirty story told us, I think, which
[28:54] Speaker 4: was more of a geopolitical and political decision and then
[28:57] Speaker 4: more of a defensive requirement.
[28:58] Speaker 1: For the dais purcess what you are ruleless. We'll have
[29:01] Speaker 1: one again, we have the nugget.
[29:02] Speaker 4: I think separately, we'll have a favor, Yes, right, we'll
[29:07] Speaker 4: talk more about the India forces frustration of not.
[29:12] Speaker 1: Having enough fighter jets right now, because of which I
[29:15] Speaker 1: think a lot of what is happening is happening.
[29:16] Speaker 3: But after a quick break, eat eggs, no eat fiber, sleep,
[29:24] Speaker 3: no take short naps, don't listen to others, no serve others.
[29:28] Speaker 3: Do you ever feel like you're drowning in a pool
[29:32] Speaker 3: of advice? This is Sonalia Charji, a health journalist for
[29:37] Speaker 3: the last ten years, who is equally fed up of
[29:40] Speaker 3: lines like ten ways to stay fit. So join me
[29:43] Speaker 3: in the podcast Health Wealth, as we learn about health
[29:46] Speaker 3: from a completely new perspective where investing in yourself is
[29:50] Speaker 3: not a task but simple, satisfying and joyful. Full episodes
[29:55] Speaker 3: are available on Apple, Google, Spotify, and the India Today
[29:59] Speaker 3: podcast website.
[30:01] Speaker 1: Tune in now, Welcome back.
[30:09] Speaker 4: Shive and I are discussing a sort of a balloon
[30:12] Speaker 4: like shift said that has been floated by Russian media,
[30:14] Speaker 4: sort of pitching Russia's fifty seven for the Indian Air
[30:19] Speaker 4: Force to India, you know, sort of like you know, hey,
[30:21] Speaker 4: come buy this aircraft, so great for you. So you've
[30:24] Speaker 4: just described to your what your thoughts are on this
[30:27] Speaker 4: topic and why do you think this sort of a
[30:28] Speaker 4: balloon is being sort of floated and see it's well,
[30:31] Speaker 4: I was like a little let's throw it down there
[30:32] Speaker 4: and see what stakes and you know, let's take it
[30:34] Speaker 4: from there. One of the reasons I think, and I
[30:37] Speaker 4: think you'll agree with me, and I want you to
[30:38] Speaker 4: expand more on this is do you think it's also
[30:40] Speaker 4: because of uh in Russia, Russian media, Russian industry and
[30:44] Speaker 4: perhaps you know, maybe in the near future a few
[30:46] Speaker 4: months now, then we'll also see that happening with other countries,
[30:49] Speaker 4: other other perhaps manufacturers sort of sensing this sort of
[30:53] Speaker 4: frustration in the Air force about not really getting the
[30:56] Speaker 4: fighters that it wanted, that they just mark one.
[30:58] Speaker 1: Aid liveries have been delayed.
[30:59] Speaker 4: I think we didn't episode around two and a half
[31:01] Speaker 4: months back that they have been delayed. Back then, we
[31:04] Speaker 4: had said we'll see the first debries by the end
[31:06] Speaker 4: of this year. We are at the end of this
[31:07] Speaker 4: year and we haven't seen the deliver's happening. Even though
[31:10] Speaker 4: the reason for that is not really in India. The
[31:14] Speaker 4: reason for that is actually in the US. It's the
[31:16] Speaker 4: engines from General General Electric that is causing the delays.
[31:20] Speaker 4: But then Shave had made a very good point back
[31:22] Speaker 4: then that you know, if you had your own engine,
[31:23] Speaker 4: then this would not have happened in the first place.
[31:25] Speaker 1: So this actually is an example of doing.
[31:27] Speaker 4: A project where even a slight dependency on a on
[31:30] Speaker 4: a sort of a foreign country, can you know, kind
[31:32] Speaker 4: of derail that in the longer run. Sort of the
[31:35] Speaker 4: same argument you've just made right now. Because of which
[31:38] Speaker 4: India wants to go with the Amcup project on its own,
[31:41] Speaker 4: we'll kind of circle back to am kind of bit.
[31:43] Speaker 4: But yeah, coming back to my question and my point
[31:45] Speaker 4: about the indianet for frustration. So yeah, you have the
[31:47] Speaker 4: Mark one ay deliveries getting delayed a bit. The Mark two,
[31:51] Speaker 4: I mean then you don't know where it is. Where
[31:53] Speaker 4: it is, it's coming for sure, but you know with
[31:55] Speaker 4: Mark one is still not here. You know, the player's
[31:58] Speaker 4: Mark two, you know, you don't know well when that
[32:00] Speaker 4: will happen. The MR of a tender, like we spoke
[32:02] Speaker 4: about a couple of episodes ago, is sort of in
[32:04] Speaker 4: the works. It's still not out there again, you don't
[32:07] Speaker 4: know what will happen, like we discussed in the full
[32:09] Speaker 4: episode back then, you know what that competition will look
[32:12] Speaker 4: like when that will happen when those liberties will start coming.
[32:14] Speaker 1: In, et cetera.
[32:16] Speaker 4: A few months ago then Air Marshall Ahmapreet saying who
[32:20] Speaker 4: currently is there? Fors Chief Chief Marshamapree saying had made
[32:23] Speaker 4: a statement where he had said that Arthmann and Ledberta
[32:26] Speaker 4: cannot be at the cost of nation security. I don't
[32:29] Speaker 4: want to read too much into his comment. He actually
[32:31] Speaker 4: was talking to Indian industry and he was actually trying
[32:33] Speaker 4: to kind of push them to do more. But the
[32:35] Speaker 4: statement did make headlines back then, kind of you know,
[32:38] Speaker 4: and everyone drew that shuttle hint that you know, the
[32:40] Speaker 4: Air Force is basically saying, hey, if it cannot happen
[32:44] Speaker 4: with this project, then let's, you know, see if it
[32:47] Speaker 4: can happen outside. So what I'm trying to ask is
[32:49] Speaker 4: are these with what we've just discussed. It's just picking
[32:53] Speaker 4: up those sort of clues. Okay, see that person said,
[32:55] Speaker 4: So I'm not believe I'm not saying it's only because
[32:57] Speaker 4: of what he said, but this is the larger over
[33:00] Speaker 4: air force frustration with not having the fighter get once.
[33:03] Speaker 1: Is that also happening?
[33:04] Speaker 2: You couldn't be more correct about the way Russians do
[33:07] Speaker 2: things and I can guarantee you Dave that a Chief
[33:11] Speaker 2: Marshall Apcying's words where he said that cannot be at
[33:16] Speaker 2: the cost of you know, capability and readiness, would most
[33:20] Speaker 2: definitely have been one of the things that would have
[33:23] Speaker 2: raised eyebrows in in in Russia and beyond, because because
[33:28] Speaker 2: we know for a fact that a Chief Marshall ap
[33:30] Speaker 2: Sying was saying a very reasonable thing. Yes, he was
[33:33] Speaker 2: saying a very very sensible, very reasonable thing, which is
[33:35] Speaker 2: that you know, you can't you can't do something just
[33:39] Speaker 2: because it's made in India, you know, while capability suffers
[33:43] Speaker 2: because ultimately you are not an experiment. You are a
[33:45] Speaker 2: military who has to defend the country. So the priority
[33:49] Speaker 2: has to be about capability and readiness, not about whether
[33:52] Speaker 2: it's made in India or or abroad. Okay, So that
[33:54] Speaker 2: was the point he was making, and it's there's absolutely
[33:57] Speaker 2: nothing wrong. He'st one hundred percent correct. But the subtext
[34:00] Speaker 2: off that when seen alongside what you just mentioned, the
[34:04] Speaker 2: fact that the tags mark one A is delayed because
[34:06] Speaker 2: of supply chain issues, the fact that the tagus mark
[34:10] Speaker 2: to you know, we don't really know at what stage
[34:14] Speaker 2: it is. You know, there is some chatter online, but
[34:16] Speaker 2: there's no way to know for sure whether that's coming
[34:19] Speaker 2: or whether that's even going to happen. You know, there
[34:21] Speaker 2: is one section of the Air Force that says, you know,
[34:24] Speaker 2: stop all this stage just marked to stuff and just
[34:27] Speaker 2: focus on the AMCA. There is one section that says,
[34:30] Speaker 2: you know, we can't even get the tageous mark one
[34:33] Speaker 2: A and the mark to you know, right and on
[34:36] Speaker 2: time and without all these hundreds of problems, and we're
[34:40] Speaker 2: aiming for the AMCA, how is that going to happen?
[34:42] Speaker 2: And Russia is looking at all these things, and it's
[34:45] Speaker 2: not just Russia, believe me, it's any any large country
[34:47] Speaker 2: that supplies stuff to India will be looking at this saying, ah,
[34:50] Speaker 2: there's trouble in paradise, right, And they all look at
[34:53] Speaker 2: India as paradise because India is a is a country
[34:56] Speaker 2: that loves to buy it all, you know, like I said,
[34:58] Speaker 2: our inventory, you know is like utopia for weapons suppliers
[35:03] Speaker 2: because India buys everything. So the fact that you've got
[35:06] Speaker 2: the absolute chief of the Air Force saying that making
[35:10] Speaker 2: India is important to us, but capability is more important
[35:14] Speaker 2: at a time when our indigenous homegrown programs are facing
[35:19] Speaker 2: some tensions and some turbulence is an opportunity on a
[35:22] Speaker 2: platter for Russia. There is no doubt in my mind
[35:26] Speaker 2: that this balloon or this kite being flown right now
[35:29] Speaker 2: via Sputnik and task in the others by Russia is
[35:33] Speaker 2: a testing the waters. Let's see what the mood does.
[35:37] Speaker 2: And boy, are they going to be listening to this
[35:39] Speaker 2: episode right Hopefully maybe they'll get some official feedback as
[35:43] Speaker 2: well from the system.
[35:44] Speaker 1: You never know, you know, in the run up to Putin.
[35:47] Speaker 2: Coming in, you know, you know who knows, maybe we'll
[35:50] Speaker 2: get a talking point when Putin comes to India in
[35:52] Speaker 2: the next couple of months to meet Modi that you know,
[35:54] Speaker 2: India is also thinking of the fifty seven because they
[35:58] Speaker 2: also know that this is a government that is disruptive
[36:00] Speaker 2: in terms of decision making. You know, it's not going
[36:03] Speaker 2: to depend on legacy ways of doing things to announce something.
[36:06] Speaker 2: It may actually say the app that the AMCA will
[36:10] Speaker 2: become a partnership project. I'm just I'm just saying that
[36:12] Speaker 2: this is how the Russians think in terms of opportunity
[36:15] Speaker 2: they have. They are opportunists, and I don't mean that
[36:18] Speaker 2: in a bad way. Okay, So when they sniff this
[36:21] Speaker 2: kind of disenchantment with the Air Force as far as
[36:24] Speaker 2: their chair is concerned, or they think that the Air
[36:27] Speaker 2: Force is pissed off with the DRDO because of delays,
[36:29] Speaker 2: or that they're seeing these supply supply chain issues that
[36:32] Speaker 2: are dogging that they just mark one A. They've seen
[36:34] Speaker 2: the media report saying Mike twenty one go or b
[36:36] Speaker 2: extend karnahead because they is not coming on time. They
[36:40] Speaker 2: see chatters saying the STO and you guys are talking
[36:45] Speaker 2: about AMCA. What makes you think AMCA will come by
[36:47] Speaker 2: twenty twenty seven? You can't even get your tags in
[36:49] Speaker 2: on time? How are you social? AMCA will fly by
[36:53] Speaker 2: twenty twenty seven, which means that is also going to slip.
[36:56] Speaker 2: So all this this kind of uh turbulent tension which
[37:01] Speaker 2: is there in the Indian aerospace procurement system, is where
[37:04] Speaker 2: this balloon is being floated as a as a kind
[37:06] Speaker 2: of as a kind of elixer saying you know, yes,
[37:10] Speaker 2: we understand things are really bad, but abe they clo
[37:13] Speaker 2: ab hay available ready hair taya India may and and
[37:20] Speaker 2: it's all unofficial exactly, you know, the Eurasian Times has
[37:24] Speaker 2: some column by some Indian journalists.
[37:26] Speaker 1: The've also written some extended columns.
[37:27] Speaker 2: You know, should India be looking at ARTSTA had a
[37:30] Speaker 2: column Hello, by the way, we are not we are
[37:32] Speaker 2: nowhere to be left behind. Just before getting on this show,
[37:36] Speaker 2: ARTSTA had a report saying India CONCERTGA so.
[37:39] Speaker 1: Fifty seven or f thirty five.
[37:41] Speaker 2: They had an article hellos, the biggest media entity in
[37:45] Speaker 2: the country is talking about it. So that is the
[37:48] Speaker 2: power of planting a seed like this and seeing where
[37:51] Speaker 2: it goes, right, And the Russians are past masters at that.
[37:55] Speaker 1: And of course we are talking about it. Yeah, and
[37:56] Speaker 1: we're talking about it.
[37:58] Speaker 4: But yeah, doesn't get bigger than this exactly. But let's
[38:01] Speaker 4: talk hard reality. So the way I see it, uh,
[38:06] Speaker 4: you've embarked on this path of making India. You have
[38:10] Speaker 4: embarked on this path of self reliance. And Arthman edberta
[38:14] Speaker 4: what we've just described. You know, they just one mark sorry,
[38:16] Speaker 4: Mark one a being delayed because of supply chain issues,
[38:19] Speaker 4: Marked two being don't really know what's happening.
[38:22] Speaker 1: This is the first content time you're trying it right.
[38:25] Speaker 4: These are in my view, teething issues, issues that you
[38:29] Speaker 4: were gonna face no matter what correct do you think
[38:32] Speaker 4: and do you think this is what will eventually end
[38:34] Speaker 4: up happening. This is just a time for India and
[38:37] Speaker 4: perhaps the Indian Air Force to be a bit deat
[38:40] Speaker 4: and just carry on with the projects invested in and
[38:43] Speaker 4: given its faith in and just hope for the best
[38:46] Speaker 4: or wiringly is the situation for the air force so
[38:49] Speaker 4: dire that things could change in the maybe next few
[38:52] Speaker 4: years if things don't improve on the on the on
[38:54] Speaker 4: the making India front.
[38:56] Speaker 2: Look, let's first look at what all is on the
[38:59] Speaker 2: Indian Air Force's place right now. They've got they've got
[39:02] Speaker 2: a steady stream of stages fighters joining. Once the Markwane
[39:05] Speaker 2: deliveries begin, then those issues will be sorted out. Their
[39:08] Speaker 2: supply chain issues, they are serious. There is a delay,
[39:12] Speaker 2: but it is reasonable to expect that once they start
[39:14] Speaker 2: coming in there there will be no issue and they'll
[39:16] Speaker 2: they'll start arriving in large numbers. There's an additional order
[39:20] Speaker 2: which is in the pipeline, like we've reported of ninety
[39:22] Speaker 2: three i think ninety seven more jets which is.
[39:24] Speaker 1: To be cleared.
[39:25] Speaker 2: So you've got a you've got a sort of visible
[39:29] Speaker 2: fleet of more than two hundred fighters that are going
[39:31] Speaker 2: to be entering service with the Indian Air Force. The
[39:34] Speaker 2: So the Stages I wouldn't worry about too much. These
[39:36] Speaker 2: are like you said, there, they are production teething troubles
[39:39] Speaker 2: and they'll they'll be sorted out. The Indian Air Force, however,
[39:42] Speaker 2: also has the MRFA on hand, and they also floated
[39:46] Speaker 2: that balloon recently, saying that we're going to We've done
[39:48] Speaker 2: a full angry episode on that, which we'll put into
[39:51] Speaker 2: our show notes and where they, you know, want to
[39:54] Speaker 2: revisit that, and that get the wheels moving on the MRFA,
[39:58] Speaker 2: which seeks to, you know, and build one hundred and
[40:01] Speaker 2: fourteen of a chosen foreign fighter, either the Rafah or
[40:05] Speaker 2: the F fifteen or the Typhoon or whatever whichever one
[40:07] Speaker 2: they choose. We don't know what direction that's going in.
[40:10] Speaker 2: So the Indian Air Force is not tied down by
[40:14] Speaker 2: Athmannilbertha at all. They are committed to building the Tagers.
[40:19] Speaker 2: They've got skin in the game as far as the
[40:21] Speaker 2: Theages Mark two is concerned. They've got their fingers crossed
[40:25] Speaker 2: as far as the AMKA is concerned. But the most
[40:29] Speaker 2: visible acquisition apart from the Tages, which is already entering
[40:32] Speaker 2: service is the MRFA, which is going to be a
[40:34] Speaker 2: foreign fighter. So Atman Nilbertha is a very complicated thing
[40:38] Speaker 2: already in the Indian Air Force. The Air Force is
[40:41] Speaker 2: most definitely not hostage to make in India because Therfa
[40:46] Speaker 2: is literally going to be a foreign fighter. Yes, granted
[40:48] Speaker 2: that most of them theoretically are supposed to be built
[40:51] Speaker 2: in India, so you could argue that it's ultimately a
[40:54] Speaker 2: made in India project, But so is the T thirty
[40:56] Speaker 2: a made in India project, and we all know how
[40:58] Speaker 2: that went right.
[40:59] Speaker 1: I don't want to go down that frustrating path again,
[41:02] Speaker 1: but I'm just saying that the Indian Air Force don't.
[41:07] Speaker 2: I don't see very much changing they've honestly, because even
[41:10] Speaker 2: though we are sort of dissecting the turbulence issues, as
[41:15] Speaker 2: far as these separate programs are concerned, there is actually
[41:17] Speaker 2: quite a healthy rhythm to all of them. It's not
[41:20] Speaker 2: like there's a mess going on. The tags mark one
[41:23] Speaker 2: a aircraft is ready, I abey, you know, like I said,
[41:26] Speaker 2: it's like a plug. It's like, you know, the drain
[41:28] Speaker 2: is clogged. Once that drain is unclogged, the water is
[41:32] Speaker 2: going to flow freely and then then then there will
[41:34] Speaker 2: not be any problems the opportunity or the or the
[41:37] Speaker 2: or the uncertainty or risk issues or the tags mark two.
[41:40] Speaker 2: Where does that stand? Is that really going to become
[41:43] Speaker 2: a full fledged program or is that going to you know,
[41:46] Speaker 2: sort of die premature death and.
[41:48] Speaker 1: The AMCA is going to be the main focus. Those
[41:50] Speaker 1: are the issues now.
[41:51] Speaker 2: We do know that the am CUP is a full fledged,
[41:54] Speaker 2: sanctioned government program, which means it's going to become a priority,
[41:57] Speaker 2: priority program. To be very honest, there is a growing
[42:00] Speaker 2: voice within the Air Force saying, look, you've got your
[42:03] Speaker 2: you've got your tags, you've got your MRFA. If you
[42:06] Speaker 2: need to bolster numbers further on these two programs, just
[42:08] Speaker 2: do it, you know, like we spoke about THEMRFA, stop
[42:11] Speaker 2: wasting time on it. You've already got the Raphi'll buy
[42:13] Speaker 2: some more and just go all guns into the AMCA.
[42:17] Speaker 2: If you want to get some technology from abroad, from
[42:20] Speaker 2: the Russians, Americans, French, British, whatever it is, do it,
[42:22] Speaker 2: but get the AMCA on on booster power. Because the
[42:27] Speaker 2: Chinese have the J twenty, they've got the J thirty
[42:29] Speaker 2: five that's coming online. The Turkish have you know a
[42:32] Speaker 2: fifth generation fighter coming, the Koreans have a fifth generation
[42:36] Speaker 2: fighter coming. It is not okay for India not to
[42:38] Speaker 2: have those technologies. And therefore, I think there is no
[42:43] Speaker 2: mess as far as any of these programs is concerned.
[42:45] Speaker 2: It's just going to be a matter of realigning certain
[42:48] Speaker 2: priorities and there will have to be some hard decisions.
[42:51] Speaker 2: There will have to be some sacrifices. One of these
[42:53] Speaker 2: things is going to have to evaporate. It's going to
[42:55] Speaker 2: have to be cut loose. Whether it is the tags
[42:58] Speaker 2: Mark two or the MRAFA, one of these in my view,
[43:02] Speaker 2: is going to have to be buried. India can't have
[43:04] Speaker 2: all of these.
[43:05] Speaker 1: Things at the same time. It's not going to happen.
[43:07] Speaker 4: Yeah, that's coold you mention that, because that was actually
[43:09] Speaker 4: going to be exactly my last question on this episode.
[43:12] Speaker 1: We then kind of change it a bit.
[43:14] Speaker 4: I really did want to talk about how does the
[43:17] Speaker 4: India force really want a fifth generation right now when like,
[43:20] Speaker 4: considering what you said, it's kind of preoccupied filling the
[43:24] Speaker 4: wide of a fighter Judget has right now. You answered
[43:27] Speaker 4: part of that.
[43:28] Speaker 1: So my question then is the Air Force CERI Air.
[43:31] Speaker 4: Force I'm talking about, not the government right, because I
[43:33] Speaker 4: think the recommendation will have to come from the Air
[43:35] Speaker 4: Force for the government to then, because like we've discussed
[43:37] Speaker 4: in several episodes, it will be the political arm or
[43:40] Speaker 4: that will take the decision at the end of the
[43:41] Speaker 4: day what to go to go, because the Air Force
[43:43] Speaker 4: does not make those decisions, but the report, the recommendation
[43:47] Speaker 4: will have to come from the Air Force.
[43:49] Speaker 1: Is there a serious debate.
[43:50] Speaker 4: Going on right now or are there or are the
[43:53] Speaker 4: plans just going on or even the idea of getting
[43:56] Speaker 4: a fifth generation aircraft? Oh heck, I hear back of
[43:59] Speaker 4: the mind met, But right now we are focused with
[44:01] Speaker 4: getting the TS one Mark one A, the the Mark
[44:03] Speaker 4: two and the and the MRFA because those are already
[44:06] Speaker 4: planned and that will help because you know, we've discussed
[44:08] Speaker 4: how the Air Force has planned on filling the missing squadrons.
[44:12] Speaker 4: It has a set number of Mark one it wants,
[44:15] Speaker 4: it has set number of TS Mark two it wants,
[44:17] Speaker 4: and it is a set number of MRFA that he
[44:19] Speaker 4: thinks will be able to fulfill all the squadrons that
[44:21] Speaker 4: it needs right now, and then you have the fifth
[44:24] Speaker 4: generation fighter coming. So is a debate happening seriously and
[44:28] Speaker 4: based on what you know and based on what you
[44:30] Speaker 4: can tell us, do you think a decision on that
[44:32] Speaker 4: front will happen? Maybe anytime soon.
[44:34] Speaker 2: Look, priorities change, cost corrections can happen in terms of numbers. Uh,
[44:40] Speaker 2: budgetary pressures will always mean that the Indian Air Force
[44:44] Speaker 2: has historically been uh, you know, fairly flexible in terms
[44:48] Speaker 2: of moving the chess pieces around, uh in terms of
[44:52] Speaker 2: you know, how it wants to move forward. But I
[44:55] Speaker 2: can tell you that the Indian Air Force is a
[44:58] Speaker 2: very very agile force. Considering the kind of procurement journey
[45:02] Speaker 2: it has had over many decades under many governments, it
[45:04] Speaker 2: knows how to uh, you know, realign itself quickly. As
[45:08] Speaker 2: far as its priorities are concerned. Like I said, and
[45:10] Speaker 2: I repeat this, sacrifices are going to have to be
[45:12] Speaker 2: made there. It will not be able to have it all. Okay,
[45:16] Speaker 2: you're absolutely right when you say that the priority right
[45:19] Speaker 2: now is the numbers, to get as many numbers as
[45:21] Speaker 2: possible because it needs to meet that you know, proverbial
[45:24] Speaker 2: squadron strength issue. But at no point, and by no means,
[45:30] Speaker 2: is the Indian Air Force taking its eye off the
[45:32] Speaker 2: AMCA that you know, getting to a point where the
[45:35] Speaker 2: AMCA is u is an unignorable touchstone for the Air Force.
[45:41] Speaker 2: The journey to that point has been a very difficult
[45:43] Speaker 2: one because you basically had India's aerospace complex delivering the TAGES.
[45:49] Speaker 2: The Indian Air Force had a journey of uh uh
[45:52] Speaker 2: you know, uh journey of hurdles and cost overruns and
[45:56] Speaker 2: time over runs and you know, a difficult, complicated relationship
[46:00] Speaker 2: shape if I can put it that way, with HL
[46:01] Speaker 2: and the DRDO over the TAGES, which many people thought
[46:06] Speaker 2: had left it under confident about, you know, giving these
[46:10] Speaker 2: same teams more work for more advanced aircraft.
[46:14] Speaker 1: But the way geopolitics has worked, the way.
[46:17] Speaker 2: Things have turned out in terms of India and the
[46:20] Speaker 2: industrial complex delivering a you know, a Tagus which is
[46:24] Speaker 2: a world class fighter, a really good fighter. Of course,
[46:27] Speaker 2: there are problems in terms of productionization, et cetera. But
[46:31] Speaker 2: the TAGES has turned out to be a mature fighter,
[46:35] Speaker 2: you know, comparable to the best in the world.
[46:38] Speaker 3: Uh.
[46:38] Speaker 2: And therefore that has given the Indian Air Force a
[46:40] Speaker 2: huge amount of confidence that the AMCA is not some
[46:43] Speaker 2: pipe train.
[46:44] Speaker 1: The AMCA is going to be uh, you know, a reality.
[46:48] Speaker 2: And but but like I said, and and I want
[46:50] Speaker 2: to stress this further because confidence in your suppliers is
[46:54] Speaker 2: everything as far as the Air Force is concerned. And
[46:56] Speaker 2: when the Air Force has had a difficult relationship with
[46:58] Speaker 2: its you know, monopolistic suppliers like HL and et cetera.
[47:02] Speaker 2: Getting to a point where they've been able to sort
[47:05] Speaker 2: of trust HL and the DRDO to you know, build
[47:10] Speaker 2: a fifth generation fighter which is going to define the
[47:13] Speaker 2: future of air power capability has been a difficult journey
[47:16] Speaker 2: for the Air Force. But now they are there. Like
[47:18] Speaker 2: I said, they've turned the corner. You know, things have
[47:20] Speaker 2: turned the corner as far as faith credibility from the
[47:23] Speaker 2: Indian Air Force are concerned. And the Indian Air Force
[47:25] Speaker 2: is a bloody tough customer. They don't take shit from
[47:28] Speaker 2: anyone and therefore winning that faith has been a big, big,
[47:33] Speaker 2: big thing. So I don't think that's going to be
[47:35] Speaker 2: shaken easily. Now you can have your two fifty seven's
[47:38] Speaker 2: flying on balloons or the odd you know, American you know,
[47:43] Speaker 2: American elbow coming in saying by thirty five THEA. But
[47:48] Speaker 2: I think the Indian Air Force is absolutely clear because
[47:52] Speaker 2: it makes it makes enormous capability geopolitical industrial sense to
[47:59] Speaker 2: pursue something like this. And as we spoke in the
[48:01] Speaker 2: last episode, in the episode on the AMCA, they the
[48:04] Speaker 2: Air Force has been extremely insistent its condition for the
[48:08] Speaker 2: AMCA is that it has to be a public private partnership.
[48:12] Speaker 2: It cannot be just HL and DRDU. You have to
[48:15] Speaker 2: have your L and T's or your Tata's or your
[48:18] Speaker 2: you know, your big private sector companies need to be
[48:21] Speaker 2: in on it because they want that kind of corporate
[48:24] Speaker 2: professionalism in terms of timelines, in terms of technology.
[48:28] Speaker 1: You know, profit driven is going to make things more professional,
[48:31] Speaker 1: is what the Air Force believes.
[48:32] Speaker 2: So they are insistent that it has to be a
[48:34] Speaker 2: public private partnership type of project, just like in in
[48:39] Speaker 2: certain other smaller cases that are happening, like in the
[48:42] Speaker 2: WAP armored vehicle that the Tata and.
[48:45] Speaker 1: The d Areo have built, et cetera.
[48:47] Speaker 2: And therefore, I think, I think, I don't think the
[48:50] Speaker 2: Indian Air Force is going to be going to sway
[48:52] Speaker 2: from the AMCA path.
[48:53] Speaker 1: It's not going to happen.
[48:54] Speaker 4: I think that's a good point to end this episode on.
[48:56] Speaker 4: I mean, just a balloon then I guess then the
[48:58] Speaker 4: end of the day end. But funchat anyway. Yeah, one
[49:01] Speaker 4: last quick point to discuss, because I always wanted to
[49:04] Speaker 4: talk about this, said never you in which episode to
[49:06] Speaker 4: bring it up, But this is the perfect one since
[49:08] Speaker 4: you're talking about sukoys. Just look at pictures of a
[49:10] Speaker 4: suit thirty next to an afail or tages or on
[49:13] Speaker 4: a on a runway. Google images of fifty seven versus
[49:17] Speaker 4: the f thirty five.
[49:19] Speaker 2: Why the hell are sukuoys so damn big? Well they
[49:23] Speaker 2: will too in in defense of Soukoi. Sukoys were not
[49:27] Speaker 2: always so big. But you know, the the the culture
[49:33] Speaker 2: of building big fighters in order to create fighters that
[49:38] Speaker 2: are basically called air dominance fighters, being capable of being
[49:42] Speaker 2: in the air much longer, therefore larger fuel tanks, higher
[49:45] Speaker 2: fuel capacity, greater range, you know, being able to deploy
[49:49] Speaker 2: nuclear weapons did involve a kind of aerospace culture which
[49:54] Speaker 2: resulted in the building of larger fighters.
[49:57] Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's.
[49:59] Speaker 2: An eye popping revelation when people look at pictures and
[50:02] Speaker 2: and believe me, I've been to a lot of exercises,
[50:05] Speaker 2: air exercise in the country where we've seen sukhoy is
[50:09] Speaker 2: parked next to other fighters. What I love the best
[50:13] Speaker 2: is seeing the suquoi next to next to a stages.
[50:15] Speaker 2: It's like it's like mama bear and baby bear, and
[50:18] Speaker 2: it's a it's it's it's a it's a it's a
[50:20] Speaker 2: comical sight. I mean, they're both amazing fighters in their
[50:23] Speaker 2: own right, in their own categories. But the SOOO thirty
[50:26] Speaker 2: is the size of a transport aircraft. It's a big,
[50:29] Speaker 2: huge bus of a fighter, so elegant in the air,
[50:32] Speaker 2: but on the ground it's like this big hulking beast.
[50:35] Speaker 2: It's almost as long as a you know, you know,
[50:38] Speaker 2: as a as a light transport aircraft. So yeah, that's
[50:42] Speaker 2: I think this family of fighters SOOTH thirty twenty seven onwards.
[50:47] Speaker 2: These were these were meant to be heavy fighters, uh,
[50:51] Speaker 2: you know, capable of a large payload, carrying a lot
[50:53] Speaker 2: of weapons, huge amount of fuel, you know, considerably larger
[50:59] Speaker 2: unrefueled rain, et cetera. And that's what translated into it's
[51:03] Speaker 2: their huge Bulkan dimensions.
[51:05] Speaker 4: Right, no wonder then it was a two thirty that
[51:07] Speaker 4: was chosen to sort of you know, test fires from
[51:11] Speaker 4: the air.
[51:11] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the only it's the only fighter that I
[51:13] Speaker 1: can carry on on. Yeah, right, that's it. Then we'll
[51:17] Speaker 1: ended there fun chat.
[51:18] Speaker 4: Shift great fun and I'm pretty sure the Russian media
[51:20] Speaker 4: would have picked this up media or whatever.
[51:22] Speaker 1: Sell the Russia. Russia.
[51:23] Speaker 4: Russia has to Moor talks about we've basically thrown water
[51:27] Speaker 4: on their balloon. But yeah, yeah, but fun chat. So
[51:31] Speaker 4: thanks Shift, and I hope our listeners and viewers enjoyed it.
[51:34] Speaker 4: Thanks is always for all the comments that you keep
[51:35] Speaker 4: sending us. Trust us, Trust us that we every weekend
[51:39] Speaker 4: we take out at least like fifteen many minutes and
[51:41] Speaker 4: kind of go through it because sometimes we find a
[51:43] Speaker 4: lot of good ideas from.
[51:44] Speaker 1: On those comments and we kind of developed them into
[51:47] Speaker 1: an order. So keep doing that.
[51:49] Speaker 4: And thanks as always to our producer Andy Address. That's
[51:52] Speaker 4: it for this Pik's Defense tours. For more, tune in
[51:54] Speaker 4: next week till then, stay safe and not crossing any
[51:56] Speaker 4: bound in the passport.
[52:05] Speaker 3: Do you sometimes get frustrated choosing what to eat for
[52:09] Speaker 3: diabetes management while stopping yourself from eating that chocolate pudding
[52:14] Speaker 3: is good?
[52:15] Speaker 1: But is it really enough? This month, Health.
[52:19] Speaker 3: Wealth will be doing a special podcast on World Diabetes Day,
[52:22] Speaker 3: which is the fourteenth of November. Tune in and discover
[52:26] Speaker 3: with me what nutrients diabetics should be having and how
[52:31] Speaker 3: to supplement your diet for your long term well being.
[52:34] Speaker 3: You can catch the episode on our website, YouTube, Apple, Spotify,
[52:39] Speaker 3: and other audio streaming platforms.

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