# Nukes & Dump Trucks: Unpacking Pak Army Chief Asim Munir's Wild US Speech | In Our Defence S3 | Ep 18

An episode of [In Our Defence](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1617244439), 15 Aug 2025, 57 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/67377325/15_aug_25_iod_15_aug_128.mp3

Pakistan's army chief Asim Munir recently made wild headlines in the US, casually threatening nuclear apocalypse at a private dinner. He claimed that if India ever attacked, Pakistan would "take half the world down" with it. Yes, really. In this episode, defence journalist Sandeep Unnithan joins host Dev Goswami to unpack what's behind this latest nuclear sabre-rattling. Why would Pakistan's top general say something so reckless -- and why now, and in Florida of all places? We also dive into: -The factors behind the US's new-found but old love for the Pakistan military -The "Mercedes vs dump truck" analogy -The US designation of Baloch Liberation Army as a terror group, timed right after Munir's visit -How Pakistan developed nukes so fast after India's 1998 Pokhran -The legend of US control over Pakistan's nuclear button -How worried should India be about Asim Munir's Produced by Garvit Srivastava Sound mixed by Rohan Bharti

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: This is India Today Podcasts.
[0:05] Speaker 2: Welcome to Season three of Another Defense, the podcast that
[0:09] Speaker 2: takes you inside the world of conflict. I'm your host,
[0:12] Speaker 2: Deve Goswami and every week I sit down with experts
[0:16] Speaker 2: and retired officers from the Army, Navy and Air Force
[0:20] Speaker 2: to decode all things to do with India security and
[0:23] Speaker 2: explore what it truly means to serve. Get ready for
[0:27] Speaker 2: stories of strategy, sacrifice and strength.
[0:32] Speaker 1: This is in our defense. Welcome to Another Defense.
[0:37] Speaker 2: Kiki maklijs Ma Kali josakti heir but mah Mahoir. I
[0:43] Speaker 2: don't know what that means. But that's one of the
[0:45] Speaker 2: comments that Field Marshal Assimunir is reported to have said.
[0:49] Speaker 2: When he was in the US recently. He'd gone there
[0:52] Speaker 2: for an event, for a formal event. Actually he'd gone
[0:54] Speaker 2: there to a bit farewell to a top US military general,
[0:58] Speaker 2: somebody with whom he was in close touch with when
[1:00] Speaker 2: the general was serving in the in the Asia Pacific region.
[1:04] Speaker 3: Uh.
[1:04] Speaker 2: But there in the US he attended a private dinner
[1:08] Speaker 2: hosted by a Pakistani businessman where he's made this comment.
[1:11] Speaker 4: Uh.
[1:12] Speaker 2: This is part of many comments. The one that actually
[1:14] Speaker 2: has caught the tension of many in India and across
[1:17] Speaker 2: the world. Is where he basically went on new Nucleus
[1:20] Speaker 2: saber at ring by saying that if a push comes
[1:23] Speaker 2: to shave, Pakistan is ready to take down half the
[1:27] Speaker 2: world with it, by saying that we're a nuclear nation
[1:30] Speaker 2: and if it comes to that, we'll take down half
[1:31] Speaker 2: the world with it. Uh, you know, to unpack what's
[1:35] Speaker 2: happened exactly and what may have made him say this,
[1:39] Speaker 2: the timing of the comments, the location of the comment
[1:42] Speaker 2: coming when he was in the US, and for that
[1:44] Speaker 2: I have.
[1:46] Speaker 3: Are you good to be back there? I thought for
[1:48] Speaker 3: a second we were going to talk about Shirley or something,
[1:50] Speaker 3: you know, when you.
[1:51] Speaker 2: Begin thank god this is yeah Bollywood, Yeah, yeah, pretty
[1:57] Speaker 2: absurd statements. And we must say, by the very report
[2:00] Speaker 2: by Pravian Swami for the print, that's the one.
[2:01] Speaker 1: Who got the scoop.
[2:03] Speaker 2: There's no official confirmation obviously he pra means Swami says
[2:07] Speaker 2: he's spoken to people who were at the dinner who
[2:10] Speaker 2: told him in multiple so multiple sources who told him
[2:12] Speaker 2: in confidence of what Field Marsha Muni had said at
[2:16] Speaker 2: the dinner. Pakistan while reacting to India's statement on that
[2:20] Speaker 2: said that was a misinterpretation of his comments. I don't
[2:24] Speaker 2: know what, but yeah, pretty absurd comments, especially the one
[2:29] Speaker 2: what I said, the one about you know, India's like
[2:31] Speaker 2: Mercedes speeding along like a Ferrari and Pakistan is a
[2:35] Speaker 2: dumpster full of gravel. And if Mercedes speeding like a
[2:38] Speaker 2: Ferrari hits the dumster.
[2:40] Speaker 3: Possibly the first Pakistani dictator who's called his country a
[2:44] Speaker 3: dumpster exactly. I don't know how he gets away with
[2:47] Speaker 3: so many things, but but you know, they've there's there's
[2:50] Speaker 3: a method to his madness, right. It's not an isolated statement.
[2:54] Speaker 3: It's certainly not Bollywood or Lolliwood whatever place in Pakistan.
[2:57] Speaker 3: There is a certain pattern to this us Munir. And
[3:00] Speaker 3: you know, I've been studying him for a couple of
[3:03] Speaker 3: months now, and I think he's a guy who flew
[3:06] Speaker 3: completely below the radar. Nobody really kind of figured what
[3:10] Speaker 3: kind of guy this chap was. You know, Initially one
[3:13] Speaker 3: thought that he is one of those people, one of
[3:17] Speaker 3: those wanna be dictators who think they are God's gift
[3:20] Speaker 3: to all of Pakistan's problems. We've seen that four times
[3:22] Speaker 3: in the past. But with Munir, it's something else. And
[3:26] Speaker 3: this is really scary because not only is this guy
[3:30] Speaker 3: he's very deeply he's a religious fundamentalist.
[3:33] Speaker 4: Right.
[3:33] Speaker 3: He makes no bones about the fact that he's memorized
[3:36] Speaker 3: the Qoran. That's not bad in itself, but you know,
[3:39] Speaker 3: he goes on to talk the kind of rhetoric that
[3:41] Speaker 3: he's been using very unlike any Pakistani military dictator or
[3:45] Speaker 3: even any Pakistani army chief. You know, they've been very
[3:48] Speaker 3: measured in what they say in public. Right, Munir is
[3:51] Speaker 3: someone who doesn't make any bones about what he thinks
[3:54] Speaker 3: and it just comes out like that. But that's not
[3:57] Speaker 3: an isolated phenomenon. The thing is that there seems to
[4:01] Speaker 3: be an increasing convergence between the US and Pakistan relationship,
[4:06] Speaker 3: and Munir is a symptom of a larger problem that
[4:11] Speaker 3: we are facing in our neighborhood, which is the United
[4:15] Speaker 3: States coming back into Pakistan about four years after it
[4:19] Speaker 3: had quit and run in a hurry. You know, under
[4:22] Speaker 3: Joe Biden's tenure, when they exited Afghanistan, they lost all
[4:26] Speaker 3: interests in Pakistan. And this is the pattern we've seen
[4:28] Speaker 3: repeatedly after eighty eight. You know, Pakistan's uses over after
[4:32] Speaker 3: the Afghan War, the US exits, and then you know
[4:35] Speaker 3: you have al Kai that they come back in. Then
[4:37] Speaker 3: twenty years later they lose interest and now they're coming
[4:40] Speaker 3: back in. And which is why I believe Munir's ranks
[4:45] Speaker 3: are a phenomenon. It's a pattern that's slowly building up.
[4:50] Speaker 3: Where it's going to head is something that we need
[4:53] Speaker 3: to figure out because I don't see good times ahead.
[4:58] Speaker 3: You know, when a Pakistani dictator and this way and
[5:01] Speaker 3: he's got the support of the United States, bad things
[5:04] Speaker 3: have happened in the past.
[5:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Uh, good point about how he's sort of
[5:09] Speaker 2: been under under the redar for the last couple of
[5:12] Speaker 2: years because I remember Ben Brankhan was the Prime Minister.
[5:15] Speaker 2: You had this whole sort of succession controversy in the
[5:18] Speaker 2: partisan in military. You had a fight between the military
[5:21] Speaker 2: and the PM on who would be the chief of
[5:24] Speaker 2: the I S I uh. And then there was some
[5:27] Speaker 2: some controversy about you know, there was this whole section
[5:30] Speaker 2: of general supporting this one general and that was happening.
[5:33] Speaker 1: No one need that name never came up. It just
[5:36] Speaker 1: sort of just before.
[5:38] Speaker 2: The attack that happened was when he made that rabbit
[5:41] Speaker 2: speech which many have linked to the attack itself. That's
[5:45] Speaker 2: when he sort of got of got some prominence in
[5:47] Speaker 2: Indian media and then you know what's happened, what happened since?
[5:51] Speaker 2: Uh So, before we actually go to the US comments
[5:53] Speaker 2: and the US backing the park military bit, because you
[5:56] Speaker 2: brought this up.
[5:57] Speaker 1: You know, in the last episode, the last season of In.
[6:01] Speaker 2: Our Defense, when I had Shivaru as the guest, we
[6:05] Speaker 2: talked many times about how in the last couple of years,
[6:08] Speaker 2: Pakistan has stopped sort of being India's big warry.
[6:11] Speaker 4: Right.
[6:11] Speaker 2: It was China the stand up that began during COVID
[6:14] Speaker 2: You had the Galvan Valley clash where you know, we
[6:16] Speaker 2: had many people dying, including the commanding officers. Right, so
[6:20] Speaker 2: China was the top focus and Pakistan seemed to have
[6:23] Speaker 2: been like you know, done and dusted because, like you said,
[6:26] Speaker 2: the US had no interest in it. Pakistan's economy was
[6:29] Speaker 2: in a free fall, so they had no finances sort
[6:31] Speaker 2: of back terrorism to forment trouble along the yellowc You
[6:35] Speaker 2: had that declaration to follow the seas Fire Agreement that
[6:38] Speaker 2: was signed many years earlier between the two dgmos of Pakistan.
[6:41] Speaker 4: Because we wanted the Western front to be quite.
[6:43] Speaker 1: Exactly to be quiet that we could focus on China.
[6:45] Speaker 2: Then with the hell Caam that seems to have turned.
[6:48] Speaker 2: Pakistan now is in headlines. Pakistan has become a talking
[6:51] Speaker 2: point and the US again is involved.
[6:52] Speaker 3: Right, so you know, good observations that they've and you
[6:55] Speaker 3: know what I see is a slow pattern emerging over here,
[6:58] Speaker 3: which is when Donald Trump comes into the White House,
[7:02] Speaker 3: you see a lot of activity suddenly, right, Pakistan is
[7:06] Speaker 3: all out to woo the United States. They say that, oh,
[7:10] Speaker 3: we've got this guy who was responsible for the ster
[7:13] Speaker 3: attack which killed American civilians a serviceman in Afghanistan twenty
[7:17] Speaker 3: twenty one. They handed over some low life and they
[7:20] Speaker 3: said he was the mastermind. And Trump appreciates it. There's
[7:24] Speaker 3: a minerals deal that's been talked about. There is another
[7:27] Speaker 3: deal for prospecting oil and gas, and all of that.
[7:31] Speaker 3: They're playing into Trump's hands.
[7:33] Speaker 4: Literally.
[7:34] Speaker 3: Yeah, they're telling Trump all the things that Trump wants
[7:37] Speaker 3: to hear, right, which is basically resources for peace and
[7:41] Speaker 3: to convince him somehow that you know, South Asia or
[7:44] Speaker 3: the Indian subcontinent is a deeply destabilized place and he
[7:48] Speaker 3: needs to come in use his good offices and which
[7:51] Speaker 3: is what happened during Operations Sindhur. Right, so Pakistan seems
[7:55] Speaker 3: to have got an edge over India in playing Donald
[7:59] Speaker 3: Trump charging is ego doing all of that, And there
[8:02] Speaker 3: was a slow build up which we kind of missed
[8:04] Speaker 3: right from January on. We thought that, you know, well,
[8:08] Speaker 3: Trump is a friend of India, upkey bar, Trump's our car,
[8:10] Speaker 3: all of that, right, But there was something else. There
[8:13] Speaker 3: was another game that was playing on there and we
[8:16] Speaker 3: saw that the ugly phase of that during Operations Sindur,
[8:20] Speaker 3: where Pakistan seems to have convinced the world that look
[8:24] Speaker 3: they got the United States to mediate, and not just
[8:27] Speaker 3: the United States, it's Donald Trump to mediate, right, And
[8:30] Speaker 3: Trump then picks that line and he goes on and
[8:32] Speaker 3: repeating it, much to our discomfort and embarrassment. And we
[8:36] Speaker 3: have called that out, Sala. The Government of India has
[8:39] Speaker 3: called it out, the maas called it out, the Prime
[8:41] Speaker 3: Minister has said so he's called Trump and said, look.
[8:44] Speaker 4: There was no Pea state.
[8:45] Speaker 3: We agreed to cease fire only when the pakistanis called
[8:50] Speaker 3: up on the tenth of May and said enough, you know,
[8:52] Speaker 3: stop and we be escalated. Then the operation continues. Now
[8:58] Speaker 3: my point is that US couldn't have said all of
[9:01] Speaker 3: this if he did not have the backing of the
[9:03] Speaker 3: United States. Pakistani military dictators don't function very well in isolation.
[9:10] Speaker 3: When they have the United States behind them, bad things
[9:14] Speaker 3: happen in the neighborhood. We saw that in the seventies
[9:18] Speaker 3: when you had General Ziaoul Haku was in the doghouse
[9:23] Speaker 3: for unseating Zulfi Karali Bhuto, no friend of India. Incidentally,
[9:29] Speaker 3: he executed Zerei Bhutto and the entire Pakistani nuclear weapons
[9:33] Speaker 3: program was under American sanctions. And then lo and behold,
[9:37] Speaker 3: the Soviets invade Afghanistan in nineteen seventy nine and Zia
[9:41] Speaker 3: becomes this frontline ally in this war against the Soviets.
[9:45] Speaker 3: The Americans turn a blind eye to the nuclear weapons
[9:47] Speaker 3: program and the proliferation that's going on. Pakistan gets the bomb,
[9:51] Speaker 3: and then the Americans exit. Pakistan is once again in
[9:56] Speaker 3: the wilderness, and then lo and behold, nine to eleven happen.
[10:00] Speaker 3: The Americans re enter the scene. Musharaf is the dictator.
[10:04] Speaker 3: He escapes sanctions, and forget escaping sanctions, he manages to
[10:09] Speaker 3: expand the Pakistani nuclear arsenal while the Americans are watching, right,
[10:14] Speaker 3: Pakistan is already a nuclear weapons state in nineteen ninety eight.
[10:17] Speaker 3: So that's what my point is. If you know, every
[10:20] Speaker 3: time the Americans enter the subcontinent, Pakistani dictators get emboldened,
[10:25] Speaker 3: their behavior changes, and we're seeing that with Muni a
[10:28] Speaker 3: third time when Trump is entered the Indian subcontinent supposedly
[10:32] Speaker 3: playing this you know peacemaker. You know, he wants a
[10:36] Speaker 3: Nobel prize, and he's trying to build up his case
[10:38] Speaker 3: for a Nobel because he says, look, I've so called
[10:41] Speaker 3: mediated this peace thing between India and Pakistan. I have
[10:45] Speaker 3: brought Armenia and Azerbaijan to the negotiating table. I am
[10:48] Speaker 3: now off to Russia and Ukraine to end the war
[10:52] Speaker 3: in the longest, the most savage war of the twenty
[10:55] Speaker 3: first century. So Trump is making a case for him
[10:57] Speaker 3: and Pakistan seems to have figured that out. They're massaging Ego,
[11:00] Speaker 3: they're giving him all the resources and you know, the oil.
[11:03] Speaker 3: There's no oil in Pakistan's snake oil. Right, there's probably
[11:06] Speaker 3: some gas. A lot of it is in GSQ Rabble
[11:08] Speaker 3: Pindy incident. Right. They seem to have fool Trump. And
[11:12] Speaker 3: this happens every time. They've done it with Ronald Reagan,
[11:16] Speaker 3: in the seventies and eighties, they did it with George W. Bush,
[11:20] Speaker 3: and now they're doing it with Trump. It's a familiar pattern.
[11:23] Speaker 3: It's a familiar playbook. Anyone who's been around long enough
[11:27] Speaker 3: would know that this is the Ghq Rabble Pindy playbook.
[11:30] Speaker 3: And that's playing out in front of our eyes.
[11:33] Speaker 2: Which is exactly what the statement also said when they
[11:35] Speaker 2: responded to Moni's comments in the US that they said, basically,
[11:40] Speaker 2: this is exactly what happens when you have the US
[11:42] Speaker 2: packing the parfessonal military. But what I'm still not able
[11:46] Speaker 2: to understand is the why of it. So the previous
[11:48] Speaker 2: examples you gave that those make they made such strategic sense.
[11:51] Speaker 2: So you had the Soviets invading the Khanistan, so US
[11:54] Speaker 2: wanted to contain them. Pakistan as the staging base Afghanistan
[11:58] Speaker 2: response to the nine eleven at time, So you began
[12:01] Speaker 2: this war on terror, and again you need a Pakistan
[12:03] Speaker 2: for your basis and support.
[12:06] Speaker 1: Briefly, we thought.
[12:07] Speaker 2: Of when the Israeli Ran conflict was at a peak,
[12:10] Speaker 2: that the US may need Pakistan once again for staging basis, support, visits,
[12:14] Speaker 2: et cetera. But that sort of phizzled out and after
[12:17] Speaker 2: the US bombing Iran's and you civil nuclear side. It's
[12:20] Speaker 2: what Iran claims.
[12:22] Speaker 1: So what's the need for the US to cozy up
[12:25] Speaker 1: to Pakistan?
[12:26] Speaker 3: Well, you know several reasons there they and the first
[12:30] Speaker 3: reason is of course the basis. Right, you enter Pakistan,
[12:34] Speaker 3: you get access to their basis, which I believe Muni
[12:37] Speaker 3: has already promised them. You can look at Iran, you
[12:41] Speaker 3: can look at Afghanistan, you can look at China and India. Right,
[12:45] Speaker 3: that's a very strategic location. And that is all Pakistan
[12:49] Speaker 3: is to the west. Pakistan is strategically located. It is
[12:53] Speaker 3: like a massive, massive base. It has no qualms about
[12:57] Speaker 3: renting its territory out. This is a country that has
[13:02] Speaker 3: allowed its citizens to be killed by the Americans and
[13:05] Speaker 3: then claimed bounties for that. Can you believe that this
[13:08] Speaker 3: is unimaginable parves measure of said that, you know, the
[13:13] Speaker 3: former dictator of Pakistan mentioned that in his autobiography that
[13:16] Speaker 3: we were actually collecting bounties from the United States for
[13:21] Speaker 3: pakistanis who are terrorists?
[13:23] Speaker 4: Right?
[13:23] Speaker 3: That's how low it gets. You're allowing a foreign country.
[13:26] Speaker 3: It's like you know those scanned hunts that we hear
[13:28] Speaker 3: of in South Africa where you can go and pay
[13:29] Speaker 3: a lot of money and shoot elephant and wild game
[13:32] Speaker 3: and all that.
[13:32] Speaker 4: Pakistan is like that.
[13:34] Speaker 3: It's a wild game preserve and you know, you can
[13:38] Speaker 3: do what you want to in Pakistan as long as
[13:40] Speaker 3: the money is right. But you know there's another subtext
[13:43] Speaker 3: to this what we're seeing right now. Theyve that is
[13:47] Speaker 3: what happened on the tenth of May, right, Yeah, a
[13:51] Speaker 3: lot of us don't understand how truly groundbreaking. What happened
[13:56] Speaker 3: on the tenth of me is operations indur. We just say, oh,
[13:59] Speaker 3: operations in India struck, you know, Pakistani air bases and
[14:03] Speaker 3: all that. But you have to understand that what India
[14:07] Speaker 3: actually did was to strike at Pakistan's nuclear vectors. And
[14:13] Speaker 3: by nuclear vectors, I mean the means to deliver a
[14:16] Speaker 3: nuclear weapon. Pakistans rise on the Atra for the last
[14:20] Speaker 3: four decades. When it comes to the nuclear weapons, is
[14:23] Speaker 3: that it wants to establish deterrence against India. They have
[14:26] Speaker 3: what is called nuclear weapons enabled terrorism, which means that
[14:31] Speaker 3: it uses nuclear weapons as a shield while it uses
[14:35] Speaker 3: a sword of the War of one thousand cuts you know,
[14:37] Speaker 3: terror attacks against India, and when we threaten to attack
[14:40] Speaker 3: them conventionally, they say, look, we have nuclear weapons, the
[14:43] Speaker 3: subcontinent will be nuclear.
[14:45] Speaker 4: You know, there will be a nuclear war, you know.
[14:47] Speaker 3: And then they shout and then they ask for the
[14:49] Speaker 3: world to intervene to prevent an attack on them. Now,
[14:52] Speaker 3: this strategy is held from the eighties through the nineties
[14:58] Speaker 3: and for over two and a half decades ever since
[15:00] Speaker 3: they became a nuclear weapons par and if you look
[15:03] Speaker 3: at it, the pattern is similar. They attack parliament, India mobilizers.
[15:07] Speaker 3: There's a nuclear weapons threat that's made the situation disengages.
[15:12] Speaker 3: They tried that several times, several sensational attacks twenty sixty
[15:15] Speaker 3: eleven and all of that. But now, for the first time,
[15:19] Speaker 3: you have a political leadership that is not deterred by
[15:23] Speaker 3: Pakistan's nuclear weapons, which carries out a series of attacks.
[15:29] Speaker 3: I call it a rampage because a BrahMos missile attack
[15:33] Speaker 3: of the time that we launched on Pakistan in thirty minutes,
[15:36] Speaker 3: attacking their air bases from the north to the south,
[15:40] Speaker 3: completely shook Pakistan's nuclear establishment. The Strategic Plans Division, which
[15:46] Speaker 3: you know, strategizes how they move their nuclear weapons that
[15:49] Speaker 3: handles their nuclear weapons. They must have been in a
[15:52] Speaker 3: state of panic because Pakistan has two nuclear vectors, right,
[15:56] Speaker 3: It has air launched weapons and it has ground launched weapons.
[16:00] Speaker 3: Launched weapons are its F sixteens and its Mirage threes,
[16:02] Speaker 3: which are configured to drop gravity bombs at atomic weapons.
[16:06] Speaker 3: And the ground based vector are the tls, the transporter
[16:10] Speaker 3: erector launchers which are their Abdhali series and the Shahin
[16:14] Speaker 3: series missiles which have nuclear weapons on them. Now, when
[16:19] Speaker 3: you attack their air bases, it means they can't fly
[16:23] Speaker 3: their aircraft, right, they have to withdraw to other bases.
[16:26] Speaker 3: They have to withdraw away from the basis where they've
[16:29] Speaker 3: kept their nuclear weapons, which means you have negated the
[16:32] Speaker 3: air vector. Now for the tels to move, you need
[16:37] Speaker 3: the air cover that the aircraft of the Air Force provide.
[16:41] Speaker 3: So when there are no aircraft flying, you don't have
[16:44] Speaker 3: your ground based vector as well. So they are deeply vulnerable.
[16:48] Speaker 3: And I think this is the kind of panic that
[16:50] Speaker 3: we're seeing in Pakistan, that their entire nuclear doctrine, which
[16:54] Speaker 3: they've built on three decades, in half an hour, the
[16:58] Speaker 3: Indian political leadership, the Prime Minister, Prime MINISTERM. Modia said
[17:03] Speaker 3: We're not going to be blackmailed by a nuclear weapons
[17:06] Speaker 3: and that is frightened them. And I think what Muni
[17:09] Speaker 3: has said in Tampa, Florida just last week is a
[17:14] Speaker 3: manifestation of that utter panic in pakistan strategic community. And
[17:20] Speaker 3: this is I spoke with left General Rabishankar. Actually I
[17:24] Speaker 3: must give him credit for that. We spoke together on
[17:27] Speaker 3: this and he believes this is what's going on right now,
[17:30] Speaker 3: that there is panic in pakistan strategic community because they
[17:33] Speaker 3: feel that their nuclear weapons. See, Pakistan's nuclear weapons are
[17:38] Speaker 3: not about deterring the Indian military, right, that's a fact.
[17:43] Speaker 3: It is to deter the Indian political leadership. Pakistan achieved
[17:49] Speaker 3: nuclear weapons parity with India the minute the first F
[17:55] Speaker 3: sixteen flew with a nuclear weapon under its belly. When
[17:58] Speaker 3: one bomb could fly in an F six team, the
[18:01] Speaker 3: Indian political leadership was, which actually is going to you know,
[18:04] Speaker 3: initiate a conventional war. They took a pause. They said, look,
[18:09] Speaker 3: you know what if it goes nuclear. They didn't understand
[18:12] Speaker 3: the escalation ladder, which is what this government seems to
[18:15] Speaker 3: have understood. There's that one comment that Admiral Promote made
[18:19] Speaker 3: in the brieface. If you remember we discussed this where
[18:22] Speaker 3: he said that we had an escalation ladder worked out,
[18:25] Speaker 3: and that must have scared them because now you're looking
[18:28] Speaker 3: not just as the Indian leadership that has figured out
[18:32] Speaker 3: the escalation ladder, but is now slowly calibrating moving up
[18:36] Speaker 3: the ladder. So even as you know, as unreasonable as
[18:42] Speaker 3: these attacks might look to the Pakistanis, it was very calibrated.
[18:46] Speaker 3: They only hit about eleven or twelve bases. There is
[18:49] Speaker 3: a lot more BrahMos missiles from where they came from, right,
[18:52] Speaker 3: But it was messaging to Pakistan right sees, desist, do
[18:57] Speaker 3: not escalate because if you escalate, there will be war attacks.
[19:01] Speaker 4: Right.
[19:01] Speaker 3: So what you're seeing now with Munir's rant, oh nuclear weapons,
[19:05] Speaker 3: we're going to do this, that is they really don't
[19:08] Speaker 3: know what's going on. And the one person I'm waiting
[19:10] Speaker 3: for to come out and speak is a gentleman of
[19:16] Speaker 3: Lieutenant General Khalid Kidway. Now he was the head of
[19:18] Speaker 3: the Strategic Plant's Division in Pakistan. He is like literally
[19:23] Speaker 3: their nuclear Ayatollahs, a very calm, quiet composed guy. He's
[19:29] Speaker 3: headed the SPD for several years. And when Khalid Kidway
[19:33] Speaker 3: speaks the world listens, and he's spoken only publicly only twice,
[19:38] Speaker 3: in two thousand and in two thousand and two. I remember, Yes,
[19:42] Speaker 3: two thousand and two is the first time he spoke
[19:44] Speaker 3: when he said, when he enunciated the red lines that
[19:47] Speaker 3: Pakistan had before it would go nuclear. It is that
[19:51] Speaker 3: if you conquered a large part of Pakistan's territory, if
[19:56] Speaker 3: you destroyed their military machinery, their capability to capacity to
[20:00] Speaker 3: wage war, if you strangulated them economically, or if you
[20:05] Speaker 3: destabilize them politically, these are four red lines, we would
[20:09] Speaker 3: go nuclear as soon as.
[20:10] Speaker 4: They were crossed.
[20:11] Speaker 3: So it was basically telling us that if you do
[20:13] Speaker 3: these things to us, we will attack you with nuclear weapons.
[20:16] Speaker 3: And then he said he spoke again in twenty twenty
[20:19] Speaker 3: after Balacote, Yes, where he said, look, we aim to
[20:23] Speaker 3: not establish parity with India. We want escalation dominance, which
[20:27] Speaker 3: is we will threaten you with so many nuclear weapons
[20:29] Speaker 3: that you will be forced to, you know, rethink and a.
[20:32] Speaker 3: And now five years later there's utter silence. So I
[20:35] Speaker 3: believe that the Pakistan strategic community has, you know, gone
[20:40] Speaker 3: back to the drawing board. They're trying to work things
[20:43] Speaker 3: out because they've been hit by a number of things,
[20:46] Speaker 3: by a number of vectors, not just by missiles. The
[20:48] Speaker 3: Indus Water Treaty, that's again an out of syllabus questions.
[20:52] Speaker 3: You know, sixty five years nobody ever thought that the
[20:55] Speaker 3: IWT was on the table. It was that it will
[20:58] Speaker 3: never be touched. It is this enduring treaty. It will
[21:01] Speaker 3: last until you know, the Earth, until the sun burns
[21:04] Speaker 3: out a million years from now or something like that.
[21:06] Speaker 3: But it is now on the table, right, And which
[21:10] Speaker 3: is why they're confused, like, oh, these guys have called
[21:13] Speaker 3: out our nuclear blackmail and they've they're squeezing us in
[21:18] Speaker 3: the Indus Water Treaty. So while Munir might have been
[21:21] Speaker 3: shouting in April about Kashmir being his juggler and all that,
[21:25] Speaker 3: it's the Indus that's his juggler, right, and they're aware
[21:27] Speaker 3: of that. They're frightened. They're back at the drawing board.
[21:31] Speaker 3: I'm sure Karige Kidway, he's very old now, he must
[21:33] Speaker 3: be in his early eighties from.
[21:35] Speaker 4: What I remember.
[21:36] Speaker 3: They're sitting and they're working out how do we deter
[21:38] Speaker 3: the Indians. Now, you know, these guys are unpredictable. They're
[21:43] Speaker 3: becoming like us, you know, what we once were, right,
[21:46] Speaker 3: So that's frightened them, and I think Muniir is a
[21:48] Speaker 3: manifestation of that. He has to show strength, he has
[21:52] Speaker 3: to show bluster, and like all Pakistan military dictators in
[21:57] Speaker 3: the past, he is a dictator. He's de facto control
[22:00] Speaker 3: ruler of Pakistan. I feel that he is going to
[22:03] Speaker 3: do something really stupid to prove his point. Where that's
[22:08] Speaker 3: going to end. I really don't know.
[22:09] Speaker 2: Right, you know, I obviously want to talk a bit
[22:13] Speaker 2: more about Pakistan's than nukes. But before we do that again,
[22:16] Speaker 2: back to his comments in the US.
[22:17] Speaker 1: Whom were they aimed at?
[22:19] Speaker 2: Because or am I to naive to think that Asimuni thought,
[22:23] Speaker 2: it's a close to an event of mostly Pakistanis. I'm
[22:25] Speaker 2: guessing all of them Pakistanis. It's not going to go anywhere.
[22:28] Speaker 2: He was not expecting it to go out in the media.
[22:31] Speaker 2: Whom were those comments aimed Well, you know.
[22:33] Speaker 3: Both his comments they have been made before the Pakistani diaspora, right,
[22:37] Speaker 3: the first one in April that ran about two nation
[22:40] Speaker 3: theory and Hindu Muslim and all that street thug language.
[22:45] Speaker 3: That was also the diaspora. Then you had this one
[22:48] Speaker 3: in Tampa, Florida, as about nuclear weapons and you know
[22:51] Speaker 3: Pakistan and India and all that. So you know, in
[22:54] Speaker 3: a very narrow sense, I think it was to the diaspora.
[22:57] Speaker 3: He was talking to them, because there's nothing you can
[23:01] Speaker 3: tell the diaspora that will encourage them, that will motivate them,
[23:06] Speaker 3: that will get them to lose in their pockets. He
[23:08] Speaker 3: needs money, yeah, he needs money, right, Which is the
[23:13] Speaker 3: only two emotive things that Muni can think of is religion.
[23:17] Speaker 3: Pakistan was created on the basis of religion and the
[23:22] Speaker 3: only technological breakthrough that they have had since nineteen forty seven,
[23:26] Speaker 3: which is nuclear weapons. So in one speech in April
[23:29] Speaker 3: before six days before Parlagam, he talks about religion. The
[23:34] Speaker 3: second speech he talks about religion and nuclear weapons. Oh,
[23:36] Speaker 3: we have this great nuclear power and we're going to
[23:39] Speaker 3: whack them and we'll bomb them and drop missiles on them,
[23:42] Speaker 3: and you know stuff like that. So in a narrow sence,
[23:45] Speaker 3: he's talking to the diaspora. And I know for a
[23:47] Speaker 3: fact that the diaspora is now Pakistan is realized that
[23:51] Speaker 3: they need to weaponize their diaspora, not only get money
[23:55] Speaker 3: from them. There is there are credible reports of the
[23:58] Speaker 3: diaspora being used even to get weapons as well through
[24:02] Speaker 3: front companies. Right in the UK. They're on a weapons
[24:05] Speaker 3: buying spree as you know. Uh, they're trying to you know,
[24:09] Speaker 3: build up whatever they lost during operations Sindur and to
[24:13] Speaker 3: get weapons. They believe we are going to give them
[24:16] Speaker 3: a conventional edge over India. They need the diaspora for that.
[24:19] Speaker 3: So Muni needs to talk to the diaspora, he needs
[24:22] Speaker 3: to motivate them. So that is one part of his speech.
[24:26] Speaker 3: The other one, of course, is to tell America that, look,
[24:31] Speaker 3: you know, as you said about Pakistan, Pakistan is a
[24:34] Speaker 3: country that negotiates with a gun to its head, right,
[24:37] Speaker 3: So he says, hello, we're extremely you know, we're a
[24:41] Speaker 3: very unstable part of the world.
[24:43] Speaker 4: Mister Trump. We need you.
[24:44] Speaker 3: You need to come and make peace between US and
[24:46] Speaker 3: India because otherwise it's going to be nuclear weapons launch.
[24:49] Speaker 3: And Trump will wag in and say that, oh, look,
[24:52] Speaker 3: look I told you this place is so unstable. They
[24:54] Speaker 3: need a peacemaker like me. They need to give me
[24:56] Speaker 3: a Nobel. And you know I would even go so far.
[25:00] Speaker 3: They have to say, I wouldn't put it past Asimuni
[25:04] Speaker 3: if he actually tests a nuclear weapon. I mean The
[25:06] Speaker 3: guy is in such a bad spot right now, right,
[25:09] Speaker 3: he needs to do something to recover his lost crown.
[25:12] Speaker 3: And what better way to flex your muscle and prove
[25:16] Speaker 3: your matches more than to detonate a weapon. Imran Khan
[25:20] Speaker 3: couldn't detonate a bomb. I detonated a nuclear war. You know,
[25:23] Speaker 3: he could even do that, And I think we should
[25:25] Speaker 3: prepare for all of these contingencies.
[25:28] Speaker 4: What if he does that?
[25:30] Speaker 3: And you know it was it was different if it
[25:32] Speaker 3: was another American president, and even Biden, right even, but
[25:38] Speaker 3: with Trump, an unpredictable Pakistani dictator, an unpredictable US president
[25:46] Speaker 3: who knows how did he'd react. He wouldn't impose sanctions,
[25:48] Speaker 3: even he might say, look, I told you they've exploded
[25:51] Speaker 3: a weapon, they've tested a weapon.
[25:53] Speaker 4: South Asia is very unstable.
[25:55] Speaker 3: They need me. We need to bring peace over there.
[25:58] Speaker 3: I've just started talking to put In. Looks like I
[26:00] Speaker 3: had to talk to India and Pakistan as well. So
[26:04] Speaker 3: this plays into Trump's playbook, Right, I brought peace, I
[26:09] Speaker 3: bombed Iran, and I brought peace in between Iran and Israel.
[26:14] Speaker 3: So this is part of this whole playbook that's going on.
[26:17] Speaker 3: And that's the reason I feel that the next few
[26:19] Speaker 3: months are going to be very, very.
[26:23] Speaker 1: Scary.
[26:24] Speaker 2: Also in fact, I mean, you know, knowing Trump's love
[26:27] Speaker 2: for strong men, Oh he loves dictators. He might actually
[26:31] Speaker 2: love love the idea of Pakistani. Pakistani of course great
[26:35] Speaker 2: loves nuclear weapons.
[26:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, show off strength, Look, strong man, Pakistan, strong man
[26:39] Speaker 3: detonates weapon. I mean, this is crazy, and you know,
[26:42] Speaker 3: I see the pain in our diplomats, in our military people,
[26:47] Speaker 3: in our politicians. We can't do this kind of stuff, right.
[26:50] Speaker 3: We are a responsible nation and we have no option
[26:55] Speaker 3: but to keep calm and carry on. Right. We cannot
[26:59] Speaker 3: be unpredicted. Well, we can't be mercurial. We have a
[27:02] Speaker 3: reputation to protect. We are not going to toss aside
[27:06] Speaker 3: twenty five fifty seventy five years of what we've built
[27:10] Speaker 3: so far just because we want to, you know, react
[27:13] Speaker 3: to some crazy guy on the block.
[27:18] Speaker 2: One point on the US US topic is how much
[27:22] Speaker 2: of this is linked to what we discuss in the
[27:25] Speaker 2: previous episode, where India seemingly is playing a bit of
[27:29] Speaker 2: a hard ball game with the US and Trump definitely
[27:32] Speaker 2: not liking it. India is saying, insisting that you were
[27:36] Speaker 2: not involved in lating the pause.
[27:38] Speaker 4: Of fighting.
[27:40] Speaker 2: India and its stocks being consistent on that point that
[27:45] Speaker 2: you will not get access to completely all of agriculture
[27:48] Speaker 2: market in India. How much of this is linked to
[27:52] Speaker 2: that or do you think both of these are entirely
[27:54] Speaker 2: separate issue.
[27:54] Speaker 3: No, I think they're linked. They've and you knows, as
[27:57] Speaker 3: you mentioned, the fact is that Trump wants a win
[27:59] Speaker 3: from India. He wants to say that, oh, you know,
[28:02] Speaker 3: there was this thing I negotiated with India, and there was,
[28:06] Speaker 3: you know, such a hard bargain and finally we agreed
[28:08] Speaker 3: at this I got what I wanted. Or you have
[28:11] Speaker 3: to say, oh, you know, I negotiated this speech deal
[28:14] Speaker 3: and Indians loved me for it and they hailed me
[28:17] Speaker 3: and they nominated me for a Nobel or they're going
[28:21] Speaker 3: to buy ten billion dollars worth of uh, you know
[28:24] Speaker 3: arms from the United States.
[28:26] Speaker 4: Look, I did it. I did it.
[28:27] Speaker 3: We haven't given him a win, and he doesn't know
[28:30] Speaker 3: what to do right. The silence here is that the
[28:33] Speaker 3: fifty years of Shorely, right, Can I can I use
[28:36] Speaker 3: a can I use.
[28:36] Speaker 4: A shole line?
[28:37] Speaker 3: Yet?
[28:38] Speaker 1: Of course? Yeah?
[28:39] Speaker 3: No, sanata q By, she doesn't know why we haven't
[28:44] Speaker 3: responded yet, and we haven't risen to the bait, you know.
[28:47] Speaker 3: So I think he's a little confused, he's a little puzzled,
[28:49] Speaker 3: and he's now you know, going to uh probably take
[28:53] Speaker 3: the tariffs even higher to get a reaction out of us.
[28:56] Speaker 4: Right.
[28:56] Speaker 3: So, but but you know, the point being that he
[28:58] Speaker 3: loves dictators, and he says it more openly there. But
[29:04] Speaker 3: I think Americans, the American establishment, they love dictators. They
[29:09] Speaker 3: love them across the world. And you've seen it, and
[29:11] Speaker 3: you know, there's a playbook here, and I would say
[29:14] Speaker 3: it because when you mentioned Imran Khan, that was the
[29:16] Speaker 3: first thing that flashed through my mind. You remember the
[29:18] Speaker 3: Egyptian experiment post the Arab Spring, Yes, where they had
[29:23] Speaker 3: this popular elected uh Mohammed Morcy, who came there. He
[29:28] Speaker 3: was in a he was wearing a suit, and he
[29:30] Speaker 3: was wearing rimless glasses. He was on the cover of
[29:33] Speaker 3: Time magazine and says he's the man of the moment,
[29:36] Speaker 3: Mohmed Morcy, representative of people. And then they discover, oh
[29:40] Speaker 3: he's Muslim brotherhood. Oh he's an extremist. Oh you know,
[29:44] Speaker 3: and can we get someone else? Uh, can we get
[29:47] Speaker 3: another host name of Barak? Yeah? Sure, there's the former
[29:50] Speaker 3: chief there, General Alcci. So lo and behold, Morcy is
[29:55] Speaker 3: in prison and Cissy's in power.
[29:57] Speaker 4: Right, this is the playbook.
[29:59] Speaker 3: Imran Khan shows a bit of independence and he starts
[30:03] Speaker 3: speaking his own mind. He actually believes he's in control
[30:06] Speaker 3: and lo and behold he's in prison and.
[30:09] Speaker 1: His life we'll see, we'll see.
[30:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, but good point on that, because you know there's
[30:17] Speaker 2: something we were discussing in the newsroom that uh, you know,
[30:19] Speaker 2: India was very wise to reject Trump's offer when he
[30:24] Speaker 2: called Modi just before his first visit to the US,
[30:28] Speaker 2: and he invited him very strangely.
[30:30] Speaker 4: So it was a trap.
[30:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a trap because I think what he
[30:32] Speaker 2: wanted was a photo. Actually he wanted to have the
[30:35] Speaker 2: arsimonyal by side, like raising hands.
[30:38] Speaker 4: You saw that.
[30:40] Speaker 3: Photograph exactly Trump with those you know, saying I did it.
[30:43] Speaker 3: You know, I said, my god.
[30:44] Speaker 1: But he wanted he wanted that, and again did not
[30:48] Speaker 1: give him that some right, we'll talk more about this,
[30:54] Speaker 1: but a quick break when the.
[30:55] Speaker 5: Activor came, it was such a revolution. It was a scooter,
[31:01] Speaker 5: which means it was more worth the time.
[31:03] Speaker 3: It wasn't fast, it was very plain looking, it was
[31:07] Speaker 3: very simple, and that was what it's sort of USB was.
[31:11] Speaker 5: That's what clicked the simplicity. You remember, I spoke about
[31:15] Speaker 5: the tranetic Honda, each and every feature which the kinetic
[31:19] Speaker 5: Honda had, which was essentially a Honda. The act ever
[31:25] Speaker 5: did it slightly better, so much so viewers. The Active
[31:30] Speaker 5: in two thousand and one had the same suspension as
[31:33] Speaker 5: the CAN so when you would break the front breaks,
[31:40] Speaker 5: it would come up, and if you would hit the
[31:43] Speaker 5: rear breaks, it would dip because it was anti diveno sense,
[31:46] Speaker 5: you know, like even recently, I think Active has discovered
[31:50] Speaker 5: discovered telescopic folks.
[31:52] Speaker 1: Last to last year, I think so.
[31:55] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[31:55] Speaker 4: I think it was the.
[31:56] Speaker 5: Same suspension which kept on going, going, going, even until
[32:01] Speaker 5: the last couple of years.
[32:02] Speaker 4: But it worked.
[32:08] Speaker 1: Welcome back, Sandip.
[32:10] Speaker 2: I want to talk a bit about Pakistan's nuclear weapons,
[32:15] Speaker 2: the program itself and the situation right now.
[32:19] Speaker 1: The program, you know, growing.
[32:21] Speaker 2: Up, I've read lots about how it was a dirty program,
[32:25] Speaker 2: but unfortunately I haven't done a deep dive into it.
[32:28] Speaker 1: So I think I am very interested.
[32:31] Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure our listeners and viewers will be pretty
[32:33] Speaker 2: interested if you can sort of give us a sort
[32:34] Speaker 2: of a very short history lesson on how did Pakistan
[32:37] Speaker 2: end up getting its nuclear weapons?
[32:40] Speaker 1: The iq Khant chapter.
[32:42] Speaker 2: And also, even though this may be a naive question,
[32:45] Speaker 2: but how is it that when it comes to nuclear
[32:47] Speaker 2: program which will take decades for any country, it has
[32:50] Speaker 2: taken decades for many countries. How is it that when
[32:54] Speaker 2: India had its second round of tests, pok run to
[32:57] Speaker 2: Pakistan was able to test within a couple of weeks.
[33:00] Speaker 4: Good question.
[33:00] Speaker 3: You want me to answer that first? I will answer
[33:04] Speaker 3: that that last part of your question. First, The fact
[33:08] Speaker 3: is that Pakistan weaponized before we did, right, Yeah, we tested,
[33:15] Speaker 3: but the weapon that we tested was not a weapon,
[33:19] Speaker 3: was not a deliverable weapon.
[33:20] Speaker 1: Right right.
[33:21] Speaker 3: It was a large device. And that device could not
[33:24] Speaker 3: be put onto a vector. It couldn't be put in
[33:27] Speaker 3: a on the tip of a missile or even you know,
[33:32] Speaker 3: rolled out of a cargo aircraft or launched in any
[33:35] Speaker 3: particular way. It was a test of a device. That
[33:38] Speaker 3: device was very large. I don't want to get into
[33:40] Speaker 3: the details of that device. But that was nineteen seventy four,
[33:43] Speaker 3: the poke Roon one test, that's right. And but what
[33:47] Speaker 3: we did, what we tested in ninety eight was a deliverable.
[33:50] Speaker 1: Device or a series of five.
[33:52] Speaker 3: The five tests were deliverable devices and then nuclear power.
[33:56] Speaker 4: That's correct.
[33:57] Speaker 3: So how it starts is that India's new clear weapons
[34:00] Speaker 3: program was a reaction to China going nuclear. So when
[34:04] Speaker 3: we fought with that border war with China in nineteen
[34:08] Speaker 3: sixty two, neither India nor China were nuclear weapon states.
[34:13] Speaker 3: China went nuclear in nineteen sixty four, just two years
[34:17] Speaker 3: after the war. And you must understand that in sixty two,
[34:20] Speaker 3: the kind of shock to the Indian system that you
[34:24] Speaker 3: could well have lost the entire northeast of India, right
[34:28] Speaker 3: that is a large chunk of territory. There was nothing
[34:31] Speaker 3: between the Chinese and say East Pakistan. They could have
[34:36] Speaker 3: just rolled all the way up there. We would have
[34:38] Speaker 3: lost the entire northeast. That frightened the America, the Indian establishment,
[34:43] Speaker 3: and that is one of the reasons that we started
[34:45] Speaker 3: going nuclear. We started pursuing a covert nuclear program. It
[34:51] Speaker 3: was couched in the civilian Nuclear Energy program sixty four.
[34:57] Speaker 3: When China tested, we accelerated the program. They were they
[35:02] Speaker 3: were bomb scientists like Homi Baba who said we need
[35:06] Speaker 3: to all of you watched rocket boys.
[35:08] Speaker 4: You know the story. Homi Baba was.
[35:10] Speaker 3: One of our most ardent advocates of a nuclear bomb.
[35:15] Speaker 3: And in seventy two, when Pakistan came out of the
[35:21] Speaker 3: Indoor Park War with half of Pakistan it lost East Pakistan.
[35:26] Speaker 4: They were in a state of shock.
[35:28] Speaker 3: And Sulfi Bhutto Zai Bhutto lined up all the Pakistani
[35:32] Speaker 3: scientists and military men and said, we will eat grass,
[35:37] Speaker 3: but we will build a bomb. Now, when a country,
[35:40] Speaker 3: even as poor and as technologically challenged as Pakistan, sets
[35:46] Speaker 3: its mind to a nuclear weapons program, they can get it.
[35:50] Speaker 3: And the proof is North Korea. Yes, despite all of
[35:53] Speaker 3: the you know, the economy and all of that, it's
[35:56] Speaker 3: become a state project. They got the bomb two decades ago.
[36:01] Speaker 3: Pakistan began the nuclear weapons program. It was there in
[36:04] Speaker 3: the sixties. They also had civilian nuclear reactors. But the
[36:07] Speaker 3: interesting thing is that when they began the program in
[36:10] Speaker 3: seventy two, they found a very powerful set of allies,
[36:16] Speaker 3: the United States and China. Now, the US was deeply
[36:19] Speaker 3: worried about India coming out the way it did in
[36:22] Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one. He had disregarded American saber rattling. Kissinger
[36:28] Speaker 3: wanted the Chinese to roll down the things and tell
[36:31] Speaker 3: the Indians, you know, all those declassified things are there.
[36:34] Speaker 3: We were literally fighting a three front walk Pakistan on
[36:37] Speaker 3: one side, the United States and China, like three of
[36:39] Speaker 3: them had ganged upon India. We only had the Soviet Union. Now,
[36:44] Speaker 3: Pakistan comes out in the seventies with its nuclear weapons program.
[36:49] Speaker 3: It accelerates through the late seventies. When ziaulhak Stage is
[36:54] Speaker 3: a coup in the late seventies, he not only executes
[36:58] Speaker 3: zere Bhutto, but he gets the military into the nuclear
[37:02] Speaker 3: weapons program. The military grabs the Pakistani nuclear weapons program
[37:06] Speaker 3: nascent program then and it never lets go. It is
[37:09] Speaker 3: the only country in the world today out of the
[37:11] Speaker 3: eight nuclear powers, it is the only country where the
[37:13] Speaker 3: military directly controls nuclear weapons. And that's the reason we
[37:17] Speaker 3: must take what Asimuni said very seriously. He actually has
[37:20] Speaker 3: his finger on the button.
[37:22] Speaker 4: Right.
[37:22] Speaker 3: But back to this story of how they got it
[37:26] Speaker 3: is China entered the game in the seventies a very
[37:31] Speaker 3: close ally of Pakistan, and in the early eighties they
[37:34] Speaker 3: did something that no country has done in eighty years
[37:39] Speaker 3: that nuclear weapons have been around. Right. August twenty twenty
[37:42] Speaker 3: five is the eightieth anniversary of the first use of
[37:45] Speaker 3: nuclear weapons in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In eighty years, no
[37:49] Speaker 3: country has transferred nuclear weapons blueprints fissile material to another country.
[37:56] Speaker 3: China did that in the early eighties, and we believe
[38:00] Speaker 3: that the Chinese even tested a nuclear weapon for the Pakistanis.
[38:05] Speaker 3: We know that because in nearly two decades ago, when
[38:10] Speaker 3: Gadafi surrendered his nuclear weapons program to the United Nations,
[38:14] Speaker 3: he feared the Americans would invade, so he surrendered whatever
[38:16] Speaker 3: he had. They found bomb blueprints of a weapon called
[38:20] Speaker 3: the CCHI C four, which is a Chinese fifteen kilotan
[38:26] Speaker 3: nuclear device, which had been given to Pakistan. So the
[38:29] Speaker 3: Chinese had not only given the and of course Pakistan
[38:32] Speaker 3: sold it to got to see the Aku.
[38:35] Speaker 4: Khan, you know network.
[38:38] Speaker 3: Now, China not only gave them the design, the blueprints,
[38:44] Speaker 3: the facile material, they tested the weapon for them. They
[38:47] Speaker 3: even gave them the missiles to launch those nuclear weapons.
[38:52] Speaker 3: This kind of close collaboration between two countries is unheard of,
[38:57] Speaker 3: even in the world of nuclear prot feration. This kind
[39:02] Speaker 3: of support one country has given to the other. So
[39:04] Speaker 3: the Akugan was a smoke screen. He did get some
[39:07] Speaker 3: of those centrifugies, but the bulk of the stuff actually
[39:10] Speaker 3: came from China, right, So it was Chinese support that
[39:13] Speaker 3: made Pakistan and nuclear weapons state. And why did the
[39:15] Speaker 3: Chinese do it? Next question is they wanted to firewall India.
[39:21] Speaker 3: They saw, I mean, they are an empire, right, they
[39:24] Speaker 3: play the long game. They understood that if India kept advancing, modernizing,
[39:29] Speaker 3: became a military part, they'd become a threat to China. Right,
[39:32] Speaker 3: So they've wanted to create Pakistan as that subcontinental threat
[39:38] Speaker 3: for India that would forever firewalls into the Indian subcontinent.
[39:43] Speaker 3: And they've done that not just with Pakistan, they've done
[39:46] Speaker 3: it with North Korea. They support North Korea because North
[39:48] Speaker 3: Korea acts as a hedge against South Korea and Japan
[39:52] Speaker 3: and of course the United States.
[39:54] Speaker 4: So their whole worldview is.
[39:56] Speaker 3: That the barbarians at the gate must never unify because
[39:59] Speaker 3: if they un they will threaten US. So keep them
[40:02] Speaker 3: fighting amongst themselves. That's how they played. They played the
[40:04] Speaker 3: long game. They saw Pakistan as useful in this war
[40:09] Speaker 3: against India, and therefore they armed them. So that's the
[40:11] Speaker 3: birth of Pakistan's.
[40:13] Speaker 4: Nuclear weapons program.
[40:14] Speaker 3: And so back to your question of nineteen ninety eight,
[40:17] Speaker 3: how did they test, they already had the weapon, they
[40:19] Speaker 3: had several weapons. They had about a dozen weapons then
[40:24] Speaker 3: I'm not sure what our numbers were. We tested because
[40:28] Speaker 3: our weapons program was one of the last things that
[40:31] Speaker 3: the outgoing Raji Gandi government sanctioned in nineteen eighty nine,
[40:35] Speaker 3: One of the last things that Raji Gandhi okaide was
[40:39] Speaker 3: to restart the Indian nuclear weapons program, which had been
[40:42] Speaker 3: actually put back in the basement after seventy four because
[40:45] Speaker 3: we came under tremendous sanctions global sanctions. Right we were
[40:49] Speaker 3: the sixth country. This exclusive club of five countries was
[40:53] Speaker 3: not going to allow a sixth country to enter this
[40:55] Speaker 3: exclusive club. They put all manner of sanctions to ensure
[40:59] Speaker 3: that our our capacity to develop this weapons program was crippled.
[41:04] Speaker 3: Enormous tanctions of put our reactors would not get fuel,
[41:07] Speaker 3: which is one reason we went for the Indo US
[41:09] Speaker 3: nuclear Right, but in ninety eight, it was almost nine
[41:13] Speaker 3: years since we had developed the weapons, and the scientists
[41:15] Speaker 3: told the Indian political leadership, you got to test because
[41:19] Speaker 3: we see a window closing. We have to test now
[41:21] Speaker 3: we have these designs, otherwise we will never be a
[41:23] Speaker 3: nuclear weapons program. So while narsamraw did try and test.
[41:28] Speaker 3: I think the evidence was detected by the US. They
[41:34] Speaker 3: warned us, they said, look, if you test, will come
[41:36] Speaker 3: down like a ton of bricks on you. Whatever the
[41:39] Speaker 3: word the wordage of that communication was but watched by
[41:43] Speaker 3: test today ninety eight and since then, the publicly available
[41:50] Speaker 3: figures suggest that we have about one hundred and fifty
[41:52] Speaker 3: weapons nuclear weapons. These are just estimates. I could be
[41:57] Speaker 3: way off, but the only estimates that you know. One
[42:01] Speaker 3: of the Federation of Atomic Scientists that tracks this says
[42:04] Speaker 3: that Pakistan has about one hundred and seventy yeah bombs
[42:09] Speaker 3: and we have a little less than that. So Pakistan
[42:12] Speaker 3: would have the world's sixth largest arsenal of nuclear weapons, and.
[42:17] Speaker 4: It's growing.
[42:19] Speaker 3: By the end of this decade, they could get something
[42:22] Speaker 3: like upwards of two hundred nuclear weapons. Because it's a
[42:24] Speaker 3: production line, you know, it's a production line that's been
[42:29] Speaker 3: churning out weapons for twenty years. And it's worrying because
[42:32] Speaker 3: the country the size of Pakistan, which has no geographical depth,
[42:37] Speaker 3: which is driven with extremism, and which is an economic
[42:41] Speaker 3: basket case. Where are they going to hide all these weapons?
[42:44] Speaker 4: You know, they're going to run out of space. They're
[42:45] Speaker 4: going to run out of bases.
[42:46] Speaker 3: They all had to dig deeper and deeper to hide
[42:49] Speaker 3: these weapons.
[42:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, that was gonna be my next question.
[42:53] Speaker 2: Kind of that actually is that you have a country
[42:56] Speaker 2: where unknown gunmen run.
[42:59] Speaker 4: Right, all manner of people run, not.
[43:02] Speaker 2: Just so how real is the fear, especially within the
[43:08] Speaker 2: Indian national security setup, of Pakistan's nukes falling into rogue
[43:14] Speaker 2: I mean, I would say roguer hands And a link
[43:18] Speaker 2: question to that, there is this widely held belief that
[43:23] Speaker 2: because of this fear, the US has some strict oversight
[43:27] Speaker 2: on Pakistan's nuclear weapons, and some actually say to the
[43:30] Speaker 2: extent of them being able to cancel a launch if
[43:34] Speaker 2: it were to happen. So one, do you think that
[43:37] Speaker 2: is the case, the US having that much oversight? And
[43:39] Speaker 2: the larger question, how big is the worry that at
[43:43] Speaker 2: some point they met up hands of people You don't well.
[43:47] Speaker 4: Good question, Dave.
[43:48] Speaker 3: And this has been a problem, This has been a
[43:50] Speaker 3: global worry actually ever since nine eleven, when al Kaeda
[43:54] Speaker 3: kept saying that look after the nine eleven attacks where
[43:57] Speaker 3: close to three thousand US civilians were killed, that said
[44:01] Speaker 3: they wanted to get hold of weapons of mass destruction,
[44:04] Speaker 3: and the closest address to that was Pakistan, right, because
[44:07] Speaker 3: they were all in Pakistan. Alca that was in Pakistan.
[44:10] Speaker 3: And you had this nuclear scientist called Sultan Bashiru Memo
[44:15] Speaker 3: who was a very bright nuclear scientist who was actually
[44:21] Speaker 3: in touch with al Kahi that he had gone and
[44:22] Speaker 3: met Osama bin Laden, right, And this is what worried
[44:27] Speaker 3: the United States, that they could be elements within the
[44:31] Speaker 3: Pakistani state that could compromise their nuclear weapons. There could
[44:35] Speaker 3: be a situation where there would be political instability, there
[44:39] Speaker 3: would be a regime collapse, and this rogue nukes lose
[44:44] Speaker 3: nukes kind of thing. Some general would run away with
[44:47] Speaker 3: a nuclear weapon or too and will they will use
[44:50] Speaker 3: it almost immediately. They will use it against the West.
[44:52] Speaker 3: They will try and attack targets in Saudi abr smuggle
[44:55] Speaker 3: it into the United States or into the West. And
[44:58] Speaker 3: this was a if you remember, this was a constant
[45:02] Speaker 3: trope in all the Hollywood movies of the early twenty
[45:05] Speaker 3: first century, right, you had the movies like The Peacemaker
[45:08] Speaker 3: and all of that. Yeah, this thing of a loose
[45:10] Speaker 3: nuke being used. So the Americans prepared contingency plans for this,
[45:16] Speaker 3: specifically for the Pakistani nuclear arsenal, what will they do
[45:22] Speaker 3: if there is this kind of an emergency. This was
[45:26] Speaker 3: somewhere after nine to eleven where you had a special
[45:29] Speaker 3: team that was you know, with with the spurts drawn
[45:35] Speaker 3: from all you know, not just the military, but civilians.
[45:39] Speaker 3: There were spies, special forces, guys who could be airborne
[45:44] Speaker 3: in a matter of hours and would reach the spot
[45:47] Speaker 3: and then try and you know, kind of extricate these
[45:49] Speaker 3: weapons or something like that. So there is and I
[45:52] Speaker 3: believe that that was a story that Samor Hirsch broke
[45:54] Speaker 3: in the New Yorker way back in two thousand and nine.
[45:57] Speaker 3: And I believe these contingencies have you know, the Americans,
[46:00] Speaker 3: I mean, you have to give it to them. They
[46:01] Speaker 3: prepare for all manner of contingencies and they have this
[46:04] Speaker 3: one contingency. And I believe they would have worked on this.
[46:08] Speaker 3: The possibility that, you know, extremeists could get hold of
[46:11] Speaker 3: nuclear weapons. What would they do in that thing? How
[46:13] Speaker 3: would they cancel a launch? How would they prevent this
[46:16] Speaker 3: kind of a launch. But that was a scenario where
[46:20] Speaker 3: Pakistan Siemini convinced the world their military was perfectly all right,
[46:25] Speaker 3: it's British trained, it's westernized, We're just like you. You know,
[46:30] Speaker 3: we love our whiskey and cigars and.
[46:32] Speaker 1: You know all of that, flats in London.
[46:34] Speaker 3: And flats in London and Dubai. But what do you
[46:38] Speaker 3: do in a scenario where you have somebody like Asimuni,
[46:41] Speaker 3: an extremist who takes over so here you are trying
[46:44] Speaker 3: to protect the Pakistani nuclear weapons from falling into extremists hands,
[46:50] Speaker 3: and lo and behold you have an extremist to the
[46:52] Speaker 3: army chief, you know, what do you say to that?
[46:55] Speaker 4: Right?
[46:55] Speaker 2: You know, in fact, I think I mean if he
[46:58] Speaker 2: make it ideas if he's watching this podcast, that actually
[47:00] Speaker 2: might be a good calling card for us in money.
[47:02] Speaker 2: For Trump, knowing from the way he is that you know,
[47:04] Speaker 2: he might say, hey, we need money to ensure the
[47:06] Speaker 2: safe ons.
[47:07] Speaker 1: You help us, you know, ghq.
[47:11] Speaker 4: Ravel Pinty playbook.
[47:12] Speaker 3: You know, I'm sure we can actually sit and make
[47:14] Speaker 3: that pinty playbook. How to get money out of the Americans?
[47:19] Speaker 3: Right Number one, tell them that you're you know, extremists
[47:23] Speaker 3: are going to get hold of the nuclear weapons, Please
[47:25] Speaker 3: give us money. Number two, uh, India is going to
[47:28] Speaker 3: invaders and you know they're going to attack a lot
[47:31] Speaker 3: of American aircraft on the ground, give us money. Number three,
[47:36] Speaker 3: if you don't give us weapons free of course, if
[47:38] Speaker 3: you don't give us weapons, uh, you know we're going
[47:41] Speaker 3: to use nuclear weapons, so you better give us some
[47:44] Speaker 3: conventional weapons and given, you know, give them free.
[47:47] Speaker 4: Number four.
[47:48] Speaker 3: Uh, if you don't give us weapons, we'll go to
[47:51] Speaker 3: the Chinese. Chinese will become most He is our iron
[47:55] Speaker 3: brother and all that. So you know, Pakistan Munei, actually
[47:58] Speaker 3: not Pakistan. Money is a they've done doing that balancing
[48:02] Speaker 3: act between Shi Jinping and you know, Donald Trump, and
[48:06] Speaker 3: I'm sure he's going to meet an electric pole very soon.
[48:09] Speaker 4: Yeah, it always happens.
[48:10] Speaker 3: Look, look, every single dictator in Pakistan comes with this
[48:15] Speaker 3: idea that I am larger than life. You know, I
[48:18] Speaker 3: am the answer to all of Pakistan's problems.
[48:21] Speaker 4: Are you what happened to you?
[48:22] Speaker 3: Yeah? He was flushed down the toilet literally by the Pakistanis.
[48:26] Speaker 3: He's a good guy, right, well, meaning not to us,
[48:29] Speaker 3: but the Pakistanis. Ya Ya Khan triggers off a genocide
[48:33] Speaker 3: in Pakistan, loses half of Pakistan, and lives the rest
[48:37] Speaker 3: of his life in utter disgrace. He's an under house arrest.
[48:41] Speaker 3: That's Dictator number two. Dictator number three, ziaulhak Ah, I'm
[48:46] Speaker 3: God's answer to Pakistan and less than a decade exploding
[48:50] Speaker 3: mangoes right, Dictator number four Musharraff, I am finally the
[48:55] Speaker 3: answer to all of Pakistan's problems. What happens exile in
[49:00] Speaker 3: Dubai and the pervissure of who's on that hospital bed
[49:03] Speaker 3: is not the pervis measure of who we recognize. Who
[49:06] Speaker 3: I met here incidentally at the India Today conclave, completely unrecognizable, broken, defeated,
[49:13] Speaker 3: you know, forgotten by his people, and now it's the
[49:17] Speaker 3: data number five Simon, Yeah, so.
[49:20] Speaker 2: I think, like you said earlier, it's not that much
[49:23] Speaker 2: of a laughing matter, because he might end up hitting
[49:25] Speaker 2: that electric pole eventually. But what he does until then,
[49:28] Speaker 2: until then, especially considering his views and his fundamentals beliefs,
[49:34] Speaker 2: that's going to be quite something.
[49:36] Speaker 1: To watch, and we will watch.
[49:37] Speaker 2: So my last question was going to be about, actually,
[49:39] Speaker 2: what's the endgame for him, but like you said, we
[49:41] Speaker 2: didn't watch right now. It's pretty dangerous what he said.
[49:45] Speaker 2: So my last question is going to be about the
[49:48] Speaker 2: US's gift to Pakistan. When Arsimuni was in the US
[49:52] Speaker 2: designation of the Baloche Liberation Army as a terrisk group
[49:57] Speaker 2: straight up gift obviously, because I think before this ide
[50:00] Speaker 2: I didn't even know the US was interested in the
[50:02] Speaker 2: Blocibration Army. I don't think even I don't think Trump
[50:04] Speaker 2: even news.
[50:05] Speaker 3: So they designated them as a global terrorists in twenty nineteen.
[50:09] Speaker 3: So now what they've done is the Maji Brigade, which
[50:12] Speaker 3: is the unit of the BLA, has been designated you know, Okay,
[50:15] Speaker 3: So it's basically they're just you know, climping down very
[50:18] Speaker 3: hard on them. But you know, like you said that,
[50:20] Speaker 3: there's ever every reason to believe that this could be
[50:23] Speaker 3: one of the deliverables that you know, what did mo
[50:27] Speaker 3: you sit and talked to Trump for two hours about
[50:29] Speaker 3: must have gone with a long.
[50:30] Speaker 4: List of yeah yeah stuff.
[50:32] Speaker 3: So it's it's it's usual, it's predictable. The first couple
[50:36] Speaker 3: of things would have been points would have been conventional weapons.
[50:40] Speaker 3: I need F sixteen's, I need long range missiles, I
[50:42] Speaker 3: need radars, I need this, I need them free. I
[50:45] Speaker 3: have no money. I need this thing. In return, I'll
[50:49] Speaker 3: give you. I'll give you the Nobel Prize, I'll give
[50:51] Speaker 3: you minerals, I'll give you gas I'll give you my
[50:54] Speaker 3: non existent oil I'll give you. I'll rat on Iran
[50:57] Speaker 3: for you. I have all their this thing intel. I'll
[51:00] Speaker 3: write on Afghanistan for you if you want to even
[51:03] Speaker 3: sell the Chinese out for you.
[51:04] Speaker 4: So you know.
[51:06] Speaker 3: Pakistan, JSQ Rabbal Pindi, they're extremely transactional. And that's the
[51:13] Speaker 3: reason that this is like a meeting of minds. It's
[51:15] Speaker 3: a transactional US president meeting with a transactional Pakistan's.
[51:20] Speaker 1: Meeting a CEO.
[51:21] Speaker 4: Actually, yeah, it is.
[51:22] Speaker 3: It is two CEOs meeting each other. So it's like
[51:25] Speaker 3: ravel Pindi meeting New York, New York realtor.
[51:29] Speaker 2: Right, yeah, so I start cutting on my bla point.
[51:32] Speaker 2: But the question was also going to come to after
[51:34] Speaker 2: that was is this also part of Trump trying to
[51:39] Speaker 2: turn the crews on India. The reason I asked that
[51:40] Speaker 2: as because obviously Pakistan has been accusing India of fomenting
[51:44] Speaker 2: undressed in Balajhistan uh and has obviously accused India of
[51:48] Speaker 2: backing the bl and other such elements over there. So
[51:52] Speaker 2: this was sort of you know, something we were discussing
[51:53] Speaker 2: in the newsroom when this news came yesterday is that
[51:57] Speaker 2: would this be sort of a stepping stone for Trump
[51:59] Speaker 2: to at some point into three and a half years
[52:02] Speaker 2: he's still in the presidency to take that unprecedented step
[52:07] Speaker 2: of ending up naming an Indian as a potential terrorist.
[52:12] Speaker 2: So you know, you have only the case of the
[52:14] Speaker 2: former officer of Kasia, the US labels credit for taking
[52:18] Speaker 2: part in them. Yes, so do you think that may also.
[52:22] Speaker 4: Have quite possible?
[52:23] Speaker 3: I mean, this is a this is the playbook, and
[52:25] Speaker 3: you know what I really want to know at the
[52:27] Speaker 3: stage there is I don't know, we need more evidence
[52:31] Speaker 3: on this. Has Trump turned against the Indian government or
[52:36] Speaker 3: is it the entire US establishment? Because that would be worrisome.
[52:40] Speaker 3: If the US establishment is turned against us, then we
[52:43] Speaker 3: have a problem because then you're going back on a
[52:47] Speaker 3: relationship that you've built over twenty five years. Right, I'm
[52:50] Speaker 3: not for a minute advocating that we don't need better
[52:52] Speaker 3: ties with.
[52:52] Speaker 4: The United States.
[52:53] Speaker 3: We need even better ties than we have now. Right,
[52:56] Speaker 3: the US is simply too large to ignore. But still
[53:01] Speaker 3: we have to do it in such a way that
[53:02] Speaker 3: it doesn't compromise on our dignity and our sovereignty. Right,
[53:07] Speaker 3: they can't write rough shot on us. It has to
[53:09] Speaker 3: be on our terms, right, and what Trump is doing
[53:14] Speaker 3: the way he's humilating leaders, the way his name calling them,
[53:18] Speaker 3: and I think he's used some very harsh words with India,
[53:22] Speaker 3: you know, the dead economy and you know all of that.
[53:25] Speaker 3: I mean, this is not what there's not the language
[53:26] Speaker 3: that mature leaders use when they're talking of other countries
[53:31] Speaker 3: which you've built up relationships with and stuff. So I
[53:33] Speaker 3: think that that is always going to be the you know,
[53:37] Speaker 3: a sore point. But the point we have to look
[53:39] Speaker 3: for is that is the American establishment not running against us?
[53:43] Speaker 3: Because if that's the case, then we have a problem UH.
[53:47] Speaker 3: And we have a problem with this convergence of interest
[53:50] Speaker 3: that we discussed with Pakistan as well. And Pakistan is
[53:53] Speaker 3: always happy to play, you know, the useful idiots for
[53:57] Speaker 3: American games in this part of the world, like they.
[54:00] Speaker 4: Have done in the past.
[54:03] Speaker 3: And yeah, I think it's going to be a very
[54:05] Speaker 3: rough and tumultus three and a half years for US.
[54:08] Speaker 3: I four see, unless there is some breakthrough with UH
[54:12] Speaker 3: in Alaska who knows the fifteenth of August and you know,
[54:16] Speaker 3: going forward, possibly an end to the conflict where Trump
[54:19] Speaker 3: kind of gets distracted with you know, ending the war
[54:21] Speaker 3: and getting and getting the Nobel Priests gave him the
[54:24] Speaker 3: Nobel Peace.
[54:27] Speaker 2: But yeah, you know a good point, Actuallyaim, I think
[54:29] Speaker 2: that's something that's a good idea for another.
[54:30] Speaker 1: Episode we do, maybe very shortly.
[54:32] Speaker 2: Actually, it's the turn in the US India try ties
[54:35] Speaker 2: because that's something when I've been wondering, because I've always
[54:38] Speaker 2: believed that when it comes to foreign policy, UH, leaders
[54:42] Speaker 2: don't really drastically change the country's policy. Been India, for example,
[54:46] Speaker 2: what you've talked about this sclation ladder, It's not as
[54:49] Speaker 2: though it's just the PM mode let government that's done that.
[54:51] Speaker 2: It's been happening on a snow boil over. The current
[54:54] Speaker 2: regime may have accelerated that process, been a bit more
[54:57] Speaker 2: you know, aggressive in that regard, but that was happen anyway.
[55:00] Speaker 2: So I've always felt that, you know, presidents, prime ministers, leaders,
[55:04] Speaker 2: they just sort of take that policy forward faster, slower,
[55:08] Speaker 2: but they do that.
[55:09] Speaker 1: But this would be.
[55:10] Speaker 2: Like you said, that's what, that's what, that's what I'm monday. Actually,
[55:13] Speaker 2: how is it possible for this one guy to certainly
[55:15] Speaker 2: just make the entire USD Department amenable to this idea
[55:19] Speaker 2: of what he's doing, but I think that's something we
[55:22] Speaker 2: can discuss at length or a different.
[55:24] Speaker 3: Oh, this is a this is a long soapopular, yeah,
[55:27] Speaker 3: fastening half and a half.
[55:30] Speaker 2: Ye man, it's just January, and I think most.
[55:34] Speaker 3: Feels like it's been yeah, two or three years. The
[55:36] Speaker 3: trumpets like that, what's the time dilation? Yeah, you know,
[55:40] Speaker 3: it's like you think the days. You know, events that
[55:44] Speaker 3: happen over years now happening in days.
[55:47] Speaker 4: Exactly right.
[55:48] Speaker 1: Great, then I think we'll end the chat there.
[55:50] Speaker 2: Thanks, and the fantastic chat has always loved by the
[55:53] Speaker 2: way you're insight and your answer about Pakistan nuclear program
[55:58] Speaker 2: and the fact that they got it before. I think
[56:01] Speaker 2: now that you've seen the weaponiz is before, weaponize before us,
[56:03] Speaker 2: now that you say it, it seems.
[56:05] Speaker 3: Fairly deliverable weapons, deliverable weapons.
[56:07] Speaker 1: Now that you say it, seems very fairly obvious. But
[56:09] Speaker 1: I think not a lot of people put their minds
[56:11] Speaker 1: to it and think of it that way.
[56:12] Speaker 2: So thanks, great chat, Thanks a lot, Thank you, thanks
[56:15] Speaker 2: as always to our listeners and viewers. That's it for
[56:17] Speaker 2: this weeks, depends throughs for more tune in next week.
[56:20] Speaker 2: Tell then, stay safe and do not lost any boundaries.
[56:21] Speaker 3: For the passport

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