# India cruising along with fab cruise missile programme: What makes it so special | In Our Defence, S02, Ep 47

An episode of [In Our Defence](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1617244439), 22 Nov 2024, 58 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/62965628/22_nov_24_iod_22_nov_128.mp3

On November 12, the DRDO conducted the maiden flight test of the Long-Range Land Attack Cruise Missile (LRLACM), successfully meeting all mission objectives. Just days later, on November 16, India achieved another milestone by testing its first long-range hypersonic missile, joining an elite club of nations with this cutting-edge capability. What makes these tests so special? In this episode, host Dev Goswami and defence expert Shiv Aroor analyse their significance for India’s defence landscape. What do these tests reveal about India's growing missile technology? How do they enhance the country’s strategic position globally? The LRLACM test was especially significant because it showcased the Manik engine, a homegrown development representing a major advancement in the country’s missile propulsion technology. Are these breakthroughs sufficient to ensure India’s self-reliance in defence technology? Looking back at the evolution of missile technology, the duo traces its journey from primitive war implements to sophisticated systems like the BrahMos. How has this technological evolution transformed modern warfare and diplomacy? Moreover, they revisit the legacy of the BrahMos project as a model of international collaboration and technological growth. Tune in! Produced by Anna Priyadarshini Sound mix by Sachin Dwivedi Binge on the previous episodes here: How India hit it out of the park with the legendary BrahMos cruise missile: https://podcasts.indiatoday.in/politics-&-history/in-our-defence/how-india-hit-it-out-of-the-park-with-the-legendary-brahmos-cruise-missile-in-our-defence-s02-ep-21-991112-2024-04-25 Hypersonic missiles tested in Iran-Israel conflict: Game-changer in modern warfare? https://podcasts.indiatoday.in/politics-&-history/in-our-defence/hypersonic-missiles-tested-in-iran-israel-conflict-game-changer-in-modern-warfare-in-our-defence-s02-ep-42-1101993-2024-10-04 America to blame for Tejas delay? https://podcasts.indiatoday.in/politics-&-history/in-our-defence/america-to-blame-for-tejas-delay-in-our-defence-s02-ep-31-1052148-2024-07-18

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: This is India Today podcasts. The fact that the missile
[0:05] Speaker 1: was tested successfully and at its maximum range, by the way,
[0:09] Speaker 1: which has not been reported just yet, of a thousand
[0:11] Speaker 1: kilometers or more, using an Indian designed, Indian made, Indian produced,
[0:17] Speaker 1: Indian tested combat turbofan engine is like a huge layer
[0:21] Speaker 1: of ice cream on this cake. The laboratories doing these tests,
[0:25] Speaker 1: you know, which come under the DRDO, are very very secretive.
[0:29] Speaker 1: You never really see these scientists out there and these
[0:32] Speaker 1: aerospace engineers out there. So I applaud them. They get
[0:35] Speaker 1: a lot of flak. We've given them so much flag
[0:38] Speaker 1: here right saying that you know, when they fail, they fail,
[0:40] Speaker 1: and they should be called out. But in equal measure
[0:43] Speaker 1: and with equal emphasis, I'd like to say when they succeed,
[0:46] Speaker 1: I think they deserve a great deal of applause. The
[0:50] Speaker 1: testing of its hypersonic glide vehicle, the testing of this
[0:53] Speaker 1: new hypersonic weapon where the propulsion system, I have to admit,
[0:58] Speaker 1: is still a bit of a mystery. People are still
[1:00] Speaker 1: speculating as to what is this. Is it a rocket motor,
[1:03] Speaker 1: is it a quasi ballistic missile, is it a short
[1:05] Speaker 1: range ballistic missile system? Nobody really knows just yet.
[1:09] Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Another Defense, a weekly podcast on
[1:13] Speaker 2: all things well defense, where I They've Goswami, your host,
[1:17] Speaker 2: along with senior journalist Shivarur, break down the world of
[1:21] Speaker 2: conflicts that range from the subtle to the brute. We
[1:24] Speaker 2: bring you nuances and perspectives that will inform and at
[1:27] Speaker 2: times provoke. This is In Our Defense. Halloa and welcome.
[1:35] Speaker 2: This is the forty seventh episode of In Our Defense
[1:37] Speaker 2: High Shift. What a week it has been when it
[1:41] Speaker 2: comes to the world of missiles, if you were to
[1:44] Speaker 2: talk about in the world of defense, but how you been.
[1:47] Speaker 1: It's been an incredibly intense week for missiles, not just
[1:52] Speaker 1: here in India but also between Russia and Ukraine. And
[1:55] Speaker 1: I have a feeling that, you know, during the course
[1:57] Speaker 1: of our conversation today, we'll also get some more information
[1:59] Speaker 1: about another missile test, very very interesting missile test that's
[2:03] Speaker 1: planned for you know, probably this weekend they which is
[2:07] Speaker 1: going to be a first kind of thing. So when
[2:10] Speaker 1: this episode actually goes out, hopefully we'll have some breaking
[2:13] Speaker 1: news about a missile that's going to be tested from
[2:15] Speaker 1: these coasts.
[2:16] Speaker 2: Wow. Thanks, so the heads up SOCIALO. Before we begin
[2:19] Speaker 2: this episode, I think a note for our listeners and viewers,
[2:22] Speaker 2: you should We'll have the links in our show notes.
[2:24] Speaker 2: You should really listen to our episodes or the six
[2:26] Speaker 2: month old episode on a con cruise missiles, the Bramos project,
[2:29] Speaker 2: and the recent one on the hypersonic missiles, because that
[2:32] Speaker 2: is where she really talks about the tech behind cruise missiles,
[2:35] Speaker 2: how cruise misses are different from the nuclear missiles that
[2:37] Speaker 2: people normally associate with. Then the talk of missile missiles
[2:40] Speaker 2: usually happens. So the tech behind cruise missiles is in
[2:43] Speaker 2: the six month old episode, and what are hypersonic missiles,
[2:46] Speaker 2: how they can they are going to bring a new
[2:48] Speaker 2: chapter to modern day of warfare is in the recent episode.
[2:51] Speaker 2: We'll have the links in the show notes, and I
[2:53] Speaker 2: really recommend that our listeners and viewers listened to those
[2:56] Speaker 2: episodes or what's these episodes before you begin on this one.
[2:58] Speaker 2: So yeah, right, you know, we planned this episode. Actually
[3:02] Speaker 2: we're running a couple of days late in terms of
[3:03] Speaker 2: recording our episode, but when we planned it, we were
[3:06] Speaker 2: we're going to focus on that. Only actually two missile
[3:09] Speaker 2: launches test launchers that India has done over the course
[3:12] Speaker 2: of the last one week but Russia has added, like
[3:15] Speaker 2: you said, a new dimension to it. More than Russia
[3:17] Speaker 2: is the US. Actually, Biden is about to leave the
[3:20] Speaker 2: White House and he seems to be hand hand handing Trump.
[3:24] Speaker 2: Donald Trump a very war that's going to be on
[3:27] Speaker 2: its edge with US allowing what's known as the Army
[3:31] Speaker 2: Tactical Missile System. So it's allowed Ukraine to use this
[3:34] Speaker 2: for the first time ever in the last one thousand
[3:36] Speaker 2: days of the war to fire long range missiles into Russia.
[3:40] Speaker 2: Russia has seen that as a threat and has seen
[3:43] Speaker 2: that as sort of NATO kind of actively taking big
[3:46] Speaker 2: in the war. And there are some murmurs here and
[3:49] Speaker 2: there of nuclear weapons being used because Putin, I think
[3:53] Speaker 2: a couple of days ago, signed a change in his
[3:56] Speaker 2: nuclear doctrine, not his Russia's nuclear doctrine, kind of LORI
[4:00] Speaker 2: threshold for Aussia to use and they've just launched ICBM,
[4:03] Speaker 2: non nuclear ICBM into you pray yes, So we won't
[4:06] Speaker 2: talk about that, but I was just like bringing that
[4:08] Speaker 2: into context of why I think our conversation today is
[4:11] Speaker 2: going to become even more interesting. What we're going to
[4:14] Speaker 2: talk about is cruise missiles. We have actually talked about
[4:17] Speaker 2: cruise missiles. Around six months ago, we focused mostly on
[4:21] Speaker 2: the Bromos, the India's pride and like I think, if
[4:25] Speaker 2: I remember the words you had used last time, sort
[4:27] Speaker 2: of a heart touching and warming sort of feeling you
[4:30] Speaker 2: get when you talk about the Bramos missile project and
[4:33] Speaker 2: how sort of successful it has been over the course
[4:35] Speaker 2: of decades being developed and used in India. That's obviously
[4:40] Speaker 2: going to come up during our conversation today because I
[4:43] Speaker 2: think Bramos, the Bramo system and the tech behind the
[4:47] Speaker 2: Bramo system is kind of spawning off the several missiles
[4:51] Speaker 2: that we're going to talk about this week. So before
[4:53] Speaker 2: we get into the hard discussion, we'll talk about the
[4:56] Speaker 2: two test launches that happened on November twelfth, was the
[4:59] Speaker 2: first bunch of a long range Land Attack Cruise missile
[5:03] Speaker 2: l r l C a M. Very nicely, the PIB
[5:07] Speaker 2: calls it a Defense Acquisition Council Approved Acceptance of Necessity
[5:11] Speaker 2: Sanctioned Mission Mode project. Amazing set of words. The very
[5:17] Speaker 2: crucial bit, which we'll get to detail in a bit
[5:19] Speaker 2: on the maybe later in this episode, is that this
[5:22] Speaker 2: missile had an Indian turbofan engine. It was known it's
[5:26] Speaker 2: called the manic small turbofan engine. We'll talk a lot
[5:30] Speaker 2: about this engine and also the proposals systems that are
[5:33] Speaker 2: used on cruise missiles, but in a bit. The second
[5:35] Speaker 2: test launch happened a few days later, on November sixteenth,
[5:37] Speaker 2: if I'm not wrong, of a long, rich hyperstonic missile again,
[5:40] Speaker 2: a topic that we've covered just a few episodes ago
[5:43] Speaker 2: when we talked about Iran using it in the Middleast crisis.
[5:47] Speaker 2: Before we talk about the proposon systems that I use
[5:49] Speaker 2: on these missiles, the kind of the tech behind these missiles,
[5:52] Speaker 2: of what they will do to India's arsenal, and just
[5:56] Speaker 2: about India's cruise missile, sorry, cruise missiles program and its
[6:00] Speaker 2: future in general. Tell us about these two tests. What
[6:03] Speaker 2: are these missiles exactly? Were they just sort of demonstrative
[6:06] Speaker 2: launches or were they like test launches to the of
[6:09] Speaker 2: the kind that you know, this is going to be
[6:11] Speaker 2: in service very soon. I think the word soup that
[6:14] Speaker 2: PIB used for the first emission mode kind of gives
[6:17] Speaker 2: me an impression kid's going to be in our arsenal
[6:19] Speaker 2: very very soon. The second one perhaps could have been
[6:22] Speaker 2: a test of, like you know, technology and stuff like that.
[6:24] Speaker 2: What do you have to tell us about these?
[6:25] Speaker 1: So both these, both these missile tests were extremely significant.
[6:30] Speaker 1: They've and the reason why, you know, let's take them
[6:33] Speaker 1: one at a time, Like you said, the two missiles
[6:35] Speaker 1: that were tested about four or five days apart. The
[6:37] Speaker 1: first one was a one thousand kilometer range sub sonic
[6:42] Speaker 1: which means slower than the speed of sound, long range
[6:45] Speaker 1: land attack cruise missile, and the other UH is basically
[6:51] Speaker 1: a long range hypersonic hypersonic missile.
[6:55] Speaker 2: UH.
[6:55] Speaker 1: The both of these, both of the these tests have
[6:58] Speaker 1: had nothing to do with each other, but the fact
[7:01] Speaker 1: that they came just four days apart sort of raise
[7:05] Speaker 1: the temperatures dramatically. You know, people called it missile weak
[7:09] Speaker 1: and there was a lot of celebration happening on social media,
[7:13] Speaker 1: justifiably so because it's both of these are far more
[7:17] Speaker 1: complicated missiles than the usual testing that one sees. You know,
[7:21] Speaker 1: usually when you see a missile being tested by India,
[7:23] Speaker 1: it's something from the Ugne series or a ballistic missile.
[7:27] Speaker 1: But every time there's a cruise missile or a you know,
[7:30] Speaker 1: a different kind of missile, in this case, a hypersonic missile,
[7:34] Speaker 1: it is definitely an occasion to sit up and take
[7:37] Speaker 1: notice and celebrate. So let's take them one at a time.
[7:40] Speaker 1: The long range land attack cruise missile, which is basically,
[7:45] Speaker 1: you know, a missile that was earlier called the Niarbae.
[7:49] Speaker 1: This is a modified version of that, is a missile
[7:53] Speaker 1: that has a range of about one thousand kilometers. It's
[7:56] Speaker 1: a cruise missile, pretty stealthy flies at low level, can
[8:00] Speaker 1: be launched from either land or sea. It's remember that
[8:04] Speaker 1: in the in the acronym that you just tread out,
[8:06] Speaker 1: they've it's long range land attack Cruise missile l R
[8:11] Speaker 1: L A C m UH and land attack. You know,
[8:13] Speaker 1: it doesn't just mean surface to surface, where it means
[8:16] Speaker 1: sea to surface, you know, from from a ship to
[8:18] Speaker 1: the surf to you know, to attack a land target.
[8:20] Speaker 1: So therefore, this is a missile that's going to be
[8:23] Speaker 1: definitely a naval missile and that's what's going to give
[8:26] Speaker 1: it its real edge. The reason why it's a mission
[8:28] Speaker 1: mode missile is because, uh, the Indian Indian National Security Establishment. Uh,
[8:35] Speaker 1: when the when the when the conflict with China in
[8:38] Speaker 1: Ladak started, it realized it didn't have this kind of
[8:42] Speaker 1: a long range delivery system. It has ballistic missiles, but
[8:46] Speaker 1: it doesn't have cruise missiles, which are significantly more difficult
[8:49] Speaker 1: to detect and intercept using anti missile systems. And therefore, uh,
[8:54] Speaker 1: it was it was a kind of all systems go.
[8:59] Speaker 1: You know, you already have tested the niarby you know,
[9:01] Speaker 1: get this done. It needs to be done very quickly.
[9:03] Speaker 1: The Niarbay cruise missile, which is not in service yet,
[9:08] Speaker 1: is powered by a Russian NPO Saturn turbofan engine. But
[9:13] Speaker 1: the Indian military was very very insistent and very eager
[9:17] Speaker 1: that the final product, which is now which we now
[9:20] Speaker 1: refer to as the l R L A c M,
[9:21] Speaker 1: which was tested on November twelfth, be powered by an
[9:25] Speaker 1: Indian engine. The reasons for that, you know, we've we've
[9:29] Speaker 1: spoken about it endlessly on episodes of of of Yeah
[9:33] Speaker 1: of in our Defense, which is that you know, if
[9:35] Speaker 1: you have an engine, you have the soul and the
[9:37] Speaker 1: brains of a of a weapon system and aircraft, et cetera.
[9:41] Speaker 1: And therefore it is worth a country's time to invest money,
[9:47] Speaker 1: human power resources imperfecting that engine. A turbofan engine is
[9:50] Speaker 1: a very complicated system, as we've seen with the Kaveri,
[9:54] Speaker 1: which has not succeeded. But the manic turbofan engine, which
[9:57] Speaker 1: is basically a miniaturized turbof engine. If you take a
[10:01] Speaker 1: think of a think of the kind of engine that
[10:04] Speaker 1: powers a fighter aircraft, it's a fairly large, complicated turbofan
[10:08] Speaker 1: engine which usually sits, you know, near the back of
[10:10] Speaker 1: the aircraft with a nozzle for thrust. Now, if you
[10:13] Speaker 1: take that huge complicated engine and sort of make it
[10:18] Speaker 1: very very compact, make it thinner, make it smaller, make
[10:21] Speaker 1: it you know, mini basically a miniaturized engine which has
[10:24] Speaker 1: it comes with its own complications because you need power,
[10:27] Speaker 1: but you also don't have that much space, et cetera.
[10:31] Speaker 1: And small enough to be able to power a missile,
[10:33] Speaker 1: not an aircraft, but a missile. You've achieved a big thing.
[10:37] Speaker 1: And I think the I'm glad you asked about the
[10:39] Speaker 1: manic engine because this cruise missile test, a cruise missile
[10:43] Speaker 1: test by itself, is no big deal. India has tested
[10:45] Speaker 1: cruise missiles before testing a missile is no big deal.
[10:49] Speaker 1: But the fact that the missile was tested successfully and
[10:53] Speaker 1: at its maximum range, by the way, which has not
[10:56] Speaker 1: been reported just yet, of a thousand kilometers or more
[11:00] Speaker 1: using an Indian designed, Indian made, Indian produced, Indian tested.
[11:06] Speaker 1: Uh you know combat turbofan engine. Uh is is is
[11:10] Speaker 1: like a huge layer of ice cream on this cake.
[11:13] Speaker 1: It's it's it's everything about this test. The missile itself
[11:16] Speaker 1: is a is A is a known quantity. We know
[11:19] Speaker 1: what this missile can do, we know what its range is.
[11:22] Speaker 1: You know, the different kinds of warheads have already been
[11:25] Speaker 1: you know, planned, et cetera. But the engine was the
[11:28] Speaker 1: main variable in the equation and that's been nailed now.
[11:31] Speaker 1: It's it's this was not the first test of it,
[11:34] Speaker 1: even though you know, even though the press release says
[11:36] Speaker 1: maiden test, it's the made in public test that's been acknowledged.
[11:39] Speaker 1: That have been tests before this. But you know, hats
[11:42] Speaker 1: off to the team that made the money engine because
[11:45] Speaker 1: they've basically succeeded where many other teams attempting similar kinds
[11:49] Speaker 1: of technology have failed for various reasons in the past.
[11:52] Speaker 1: So that is the l R l A c M.
[11:55] Speaker 1: So that's the long range land attack cruise missile. It
[11:57] Speaker 1: will it will be a you know, land launched and
[12:00] Speaker 1: ship launched missile potentially could be even air launched because
[12:06] Speaker 1: at one point of time, an air launched version of
[12:09] Speaker 1: the nearby was also in discussion. I remember doing an
[12:11] Speaker 1: interview with the DRDO many years ago where they were
[12:14] Speaker 1: very keen that the Indian Air Force was very keen
[12:16] Speaker 1: to have, you know, an air launched long range cruise missile.
[12:21] Speaker 1: One doesn't know if that can still happen because remember,
[12:24] Speaker 1: this cruise missile is a big bulky creature. Right. Even
[12:27] Speaker 1: though the Air Force has been able to navigate its
[12:30] Speaker 1: way around having a big, big bulky cruise missile to
[12:33] Speaker 1: carry around, they managed to do that with the Brumos.
[12:35] Speaker 1: So they've got Sukhoy thirty fighters that are capable of,
[12:39] Speaker 1: you know, carrying one Brumos missile. It's not clear yet
[12:43] Speaker 1: whether the Narby type cruise missile can also be you
[12:47] Speaker 1: know modified similarly. Theoretically, it's definitely possible. It's desirable also,
[12:51] Speaker 1: but one doesn't know if it will actually happen. Also,
[12:55] Speaker 1: because the Brumos is having its range extended now, so
[12:58] Speaker 1: does it make sense to go for another missile. So
[13:00] Speaker 1: that's one part of it. Now, let's come to the
[13:04] Speaker 1: slightly sexier test that happened. I mean, not to take away.
[13:06] Speaker 1: I've told you what is sexy about the l R
[13:09] Speaker 1: L A CM. It's an Indian engine. Fabulous, very very sexy.
[13:12] Speaker 1: Now let's come to the other one, because this was
[13:15] Speaker 1: a This was a missile once again not being tested
[13:18] Speaker 1: for the first time. You know, this is the fun
[13:20] Speaker 1: part of missile test. They've you know, when you see
[13:22] Speaker 1: a government press release about a missile test saying maiden
[13:26] Speaker 1: test and stuff. Fun fact, usually not the maiden test, okay.
[13:30] Speaker 1: It's usually the maiden test that they're willing to speak about. Okay.
[13:34] Speaker 1: So that's what maiden test usually means in government pilance.
[13:38] Speaker 1: This particular test was of a hypersonic you know, long
[13:41] Speaker 1: range long range missile as well, terrific. You had a
[13:45] Speaker 1: press release where they talked about the range, which is rare.
[13:48] Speaker 1: It usually never happens. Ranges usually never spoken about. It
[13:52] Speaker 1: said a fifteen hundred kilometer plus range hypersonic missile, and
[13:57] Speaker 1: then you had that fabulous video and those images that
[14:00] Speaker 1: came in. Uh, we know very little about this apart
[14:03] Speaker 1: from some speculation in some conjecture.
[14:06] Speaker 2: Uh.
[14:06] Speaker 1: There are some who believe and I also believe that
[14:09] Speaker 1: this is actually an iteration of what was earlier called
[14:11] Speaker 1: the India's long range anti ship missile, which means this
[14:15] Speaker 1: particular missile is being built as a kind of you know,
[14:19] Speaker 1: big ship killer, an anti aircraft carrier weapon possibly uh.
[14:23] Speaker 1: And the fact that it is hypersonic, which means able
[14:26] Speaker 1: to achieve speeds upwards of mark five five times the
[14:30] Speaker 1: speed of sound and above, you know, makes it virtually untouchable.
[14:33] Speaker 1: Once it's been launched, it cannot be detected. It's it's
[14:36] Speaker 1: so blindingly fast that it cannot be intercepted. And therefore
[14:40] Speaker 1: it's like, you know, if one of these gets launched,
[14:42] Speaker 1: it's going to spoil your day, right So the there
[14:45] Speaker 1: is some debate happening right now about the technology that's
[14:48] Speaker 1: been used. You know, is this a is this a
[14:52] Speaker 1: true blue hypersonic weapon in terms of it you know,
[14:56] Speaker 1: being uh, you know, being a hypersonic glide with you know,
[15:00] Speaker 1: that attains those speeds across its entire journey towards its target.
[15:06] Speaker 1: Or is it or is it a missile that at
[15:08] Speaker 1: some point in its journey, you know, whether ballistic or cruise,
[15:12] Speaker 1: is able to attain hypersonic speeds. So, you know, there
[15:17] Speaker 1: is a difference between the two things. A hypersonic weapon
[15:19] Speaker 1: and a weapon that's able to for a period of
[15:22] Speaker 1: time attain hypersonic speeds are two different things. But that
[15:26] Speaker 1: doesn't really bother me right now because the weapon has
[15:30] Speaker 1: been tested, which means it's out there, and if it is, if,
[15:34] Speaker 1: as the government says, it's able to attain those speeds
[15:36] Speaker 1: at any point during its entire flight path, it's a
[15:40] Speaker 1: very very big deal, so big technological achievement. We should
[15:43] Speaker 1: also remember that India is also testing a true hypersonic weapon,
[15:47] Speaker 1: not saying this is not a true hypersonic weapon, but
[15:49] Speaker 1: India is also testing something called the Hypersonic Demonstration Vehicle HSTDV,
[15:54] Speaker 1: the full form I've forgotten, which is being tested separately.
[15:57] Speaker 1: It's launched by a ballistic missile We've spoken about it
[15:59] Speaker 1: in a Pree episode, and then it kind of pops
[16:03] Speaker 1: out from the nose of that missile and then takes
[16:05] Speaker 1: its own path. So so India's journey towards hypersonic weapons
[16:10] Speaker 1: takes a very big step forward with this test.
[16:12] Speaker 2: Yeah right, you know, tell us more about modern missiles
[16:17] Speaker 2: in general, because you know, I'm guessing missiles evolved from
[16:20] Speaker 2: the time when you know, human beings used to throw
[16:23] Speaker 2: spears and they kind of have already out of people
[16:25] Speaker 2: have played games like the Age of Empires or the
[16:28] Speaker 2: Age of Empire. I'm sorry. Then you had something that
[16:30] Speaker 2: was like a catapult which we should throw sorry rocks,
[16:33] Speaker 2: and then you know, in cendiary items, and over the
[16:37] Speaker 2: course of the centuries you evolved, evolve, evolved, And very interestingly,
[16:40] Speaker 2: when I was researching about the evolution of missiles, I
[16:44] Speaker 2: came across the fact that there's an India link to
[16:47] Speaker 2: some of the modern missiles that we see, which was
[16:50] Speaker 2: the Myceolian rockets in the eighteenth century around the time
[16:54] Speaker 2: of Tibu Sultan, who had used them against the British.
[16:58] Speaker 2: And it was a British engineer whose name William Congreeve
[17:01] Speaker 2: who kind of got inspired by those my rockets and
[17:04] Speaker 2: then kind of designed his Congrevian rocket, and that has
[17:06] Speaker 2: sort of sort of formed the basis of modern rocket
[17:09] Speaker 2: missile tech.
[17:10] Speaker 1: So to speak.
[17:11] Speaker 2: But anyway, when people think of missiles, I think of
[17:15] Speaker 2: just this, you know, long, conical sort of a thing
[17:18] Speaker 2: that takes off from somewhere and just land somewa and
[17:20] Speaker 2: creates destruction. Right. But over the course of the various
[17:23] Speaker 2: episodes that we've had, you've described missiles in very very
[17:27] Speaker 2: interesting ways. They're able to change course, they're able to
[17:30] Speaker 2: maneuver themselves. In fact, if if you look at photos
[17:32] Speaker 2: of modern day missiles, all of them are just like
[17:35] Speaker 2: you know, cylindrical items. Some of them have finns, some
[17:37] Speaker 2: of them have wings. So I'm guessing they kind of
[17:39] Speaker 2: come out of those compartments and then they reveal their
[17:42] Speaker 2: actual true shape. So tell us about modern missiles. What
[17:45] Speaker 2: are they all about? And is that that plane Jane
[17:48] Speaker 2: image of, you know, just like the conical sort of
[17:50] Speaker 2: a rocket that is being launched from one place to
[17:53] Speaker 2: the other. Is that how it is? Or are they
[17:55] Speaker 2: like something much much more advanced that we can't even
[17:57] Speaker 2: think of right now?
[17:58] Speaker 1: You know, the one particular sort of perspective and narrative
[18:02] Speaker 1: they've in the last five years five six years had
[18:05] Speaker 1: basically said that the era of missiles is probably ending
[18:10] Speaker 1: because of what is called directed energy weapons, you know,
[18:13] Speaker 1: lasers and microwaves and you know, sort of focused heat
[18:18] Speaker 1: weapons that are capable of affecting the same kind of
[18:23] Speaker 1: damage on your adversary or an incoming projectile without the
[18:28] Speaker 1: need of a projectile. You know, that kind of thing,
[18:30] Speaker 1: laser weapons, but I think the Russia Ukraine war has
[18:34] Speaker 1: just reminded the entire world that missiles are going nowhere.
[18:38] Speaker 1: You know, when it comes to nuclear deterrents as well,
[18:40] Speaker 1: the only sort of credible delivery system is a missile.
[18:43] Speaker 1: Whether it is air launched or sea launched or land launched,
[18:46] Speaker 1: it's ultimately going to have to be a missile to
[18:48] Speaker 1: do the dirty work of a nuclear attack. But even
[18:52] Speaker 1: in a conventional, even a conventional sort of war like
[18:57] Speaker 1: what's happening between Russia and Ukraine right now, even if
[19:00] Speaker 1: you look at what's happening between Israel and Iran, it's
[19:03] Speaker 1: clear that these are missile fights. You know, a large
[19:07] Speaker 1: part of what's happening projectile fights. You know, these are
[19:10] Speaker 1: not you know, troops versus troops, This is not trench warfare.
[19:15] Speaker 1: There's very little. There's very little tank warfare as such
[19:19] Speaker 1: going on. You know, even even in Russia and Ukraine,
[19:22] Speaker 1: even though there are a lot of tanks, there's no
[19:23] Speaker 1: tank warfare going on, there are no tank battles. All
[19:27] Speaker 1: of it is very very missile centric. The Russians are
[19:31] Speaker 1: using cruise missiles, ballistic missiles. Like you said, the Ukraine
[19:35] Speaker 1: has just been cleared to use the Army Tactical Missile
[19:39] Speaker 1: system or attackers. A couple of days ago they've started
[19:42] Speaker 1: using the storm Shadows, which are basically the Scalp cruise missiles,
[19:45] Speaker 1: which the Indian Air Force also has h And therefore,
[19:49] Speaker 1: you know, whether it comes to drones or whatever, it is, ultimately,
[19:54] Speaker 1: those those cylindrical objects that you mentioned qualitatively have not
[19:59] Speaker 1: changed very much at all. They've changed dramatically in terms
[20:03] Speaker 1: of their range. They've changed enormously in terms of their
[20:08] Speaker 1: their abilities to evade detection. Uh, they've changed dramatically in
[20:11] Speaker 1: terms of how smart they are in terms of guidance.
[20:15] Speaker 1: When we talk about drone warfare, what is a drone
[20:18] Speaker 1: but a highly maneuverable and intelligent missile. You know, even
[20:22] Speaker 1: a drone, you know, even an attack drone is ultimately
[20:25] Speaker 1: just a missile that you that you're remote controlling with
[20:28] Speaker 1: greater with a greater degree of accuracy, You're you're able
[20:32] Speaker 1: to make it fly around for a bit before actually
[20:34] Speaker 1: coming down and impacting its target.
[20:37] Speaker 2: Uh.
[20:37] Speaker 1: So, therefore, missiles have changed dramatically. In a previous episode,
[20:42] Speaker 1: we talked about, Uh, you know, loyal wingmen, you know,
[20:46] Speaker 1: people flying fighter planes not having to actually launch missiles themselves.
[20:51] Speaker 1: They'll have you know, loyal wingman drones doing the dangerous
[20:55] Speaker 1: work of launching those missiles. So, in all these aspects,
[20:58] Speaker 1: missile warfare has changed, but the essence of it continues
[21:03] Speaker 1: to remain the same, which is that in a war,
[21:06] Speaker 1: in a battle where adversaries are far apart, you're going
[21:10] Speaker 1: to need projectiles in order to manifest your will, your
[21:16] Speaker 1: imposition of destruction on your enemy. And the only way
[21:19] Speaker 1: to really do that is either send your armies into
[21:21] Speaker 1: that place, which most people don't want to do, or
[21:24] Speaker 1: you have missiles.
[21:25] Speaker 2: Right, let's more focus to what we said at the
[21:28] Speaker 2: beginning of this episode. We'll talk majorly about is the
[21:31] Speaker 2: proposal systems on these massages, especially the TU missiles that
[21:35] Speaker 2: were launched, and just generally the work that India is
[21:37] Speaker 2: doing when it comes to powering missiles and rockets. The
[21:42] Speaker 2: reason I say we want to focus on that is,
[21:45] Speaker 2: like you said in the first answer, is that we
[21:47] Speaker 2: have long mastered the warheads, whether they're nuclear or non nuclear.
[21:52] Speaker 2: I think you said that in the previous episode as well,
[21:54] Speaker 2: and we discussed India's ballistic nuclear ballistic missile program, that warhead,
[21:59] Speaker 2: that nuclear test launch was done and Poker and Darren dusted.
[22:02] Speaker 2: You've managed that skill to develop a water that'll explored
[22:05] Speaker 2: and you know, bring hell to you to your enemy.
[22:08] Speaker 2: Now comes the hard part of delivering that warhead to
[22:11] Speaker 2: that particular region, particular target. There are many, many different ways.
[22:16] Speaker 2: We spoke a lot about the ballistic side of things
[22:17] Speaker 2: when we did that episode, which obviously will have a
[22:20] Speaker 2: link in our notes when it comes to the cruise
[22:22] Speaker 2: missiles a bit. So you have the turbo and engine,
[22:25] Speaker 2: the manic turbofan engine that is that has been used
[22:27] Speaker 2: by the l R l C a M that was
[22:29] Speaker 2: that was test launched. I want you abously tell us
[22:32] Speaker 2: about the journey that this engine has taken. First of all,
[22:34] Speaker 2: better is the name manik for example, come from why
[22:37] Speaker 2: is it called manic small turbofan engine? And uh, you know,
[22:40] Speaker 2: turbofan engine like you know you said, But they power fighterges.
[22:43] Speaker 2: They also powered like normal airliners for example. And if
[22:45] Speaker 2: you if you have, if you have the technology, you
[22:47] Speaker 2: can obviously move on to developing planes and drones and
[22:50] Speaker 2: what not, what not, what not. So folk tell us
[22:53] Speaker 2: about that, and then we'll obviously talk about the the
[22:57] Speaker 2: second proposial system that isn't focused today the the ramptet
[23:00] Speaker 2: in the scramjet engines, but we'll come with that a
[23:02] Speaker 2: bit later. Tell us about the journey of this particular
[23:05] Speaker 2: and engine and the other work that India is doing
[23:08] Speaker 2: in terms of developing power for its cruise cell programs.
[23:11] Speaker 1: It's a it's a it's a really important question, and
[23:13] Speaker 1: I think it goes to the very heart of UH.
[23:16] Speaker 1: You know, India striving to be independent in a core
[23:20] Speaker 1: area which nobody really sees. You know. You see the missile,
[23:24] Speaker 1: you see the aircraft, you see the you know, the helicopter,
[23:29] Speaker 1: but but not very many people actually know that the
[23:32] Speaker 1: propulsion systems of most of these things are not India's. UH.
[23:36] Speaker 1: A thing that we should be very very proud about
[23:39] Speaker 1: is the fact that when it comes to rocket engines,
[23:42] Speaker 1: rocket motors, India is completely self reliant. You know, all
[23:46] Speaker 1: our ballistic missiles, all our rocket engines in ISRO are
[23:52] Speaker 1: are all Indian engines, Indian propulsion systems, and India's mastered rockets,
[23:57] Speaker 1: you know, rocket propulsion systems, which we don't need any
[23:59] Speaker 1: help with.
[24:00] Speaker 2: Uh.
[24:01] Speaker 1: You know, even if we had help earlier, we don't
[24:02] Speaker 1: need it. We haven't needed it for a very long time. Uh.
[24:05] Speaker 1: So that's that's done and dusted. That's sorted. But like
[24:09] Speaker 1: I said, a rocket engine is a while hugely complicated,
[24:12] Speaker 1: and one cannot take anything away from how complicated a
[24:15] Speaker 1: rocket engine is. It is more rudimentary and simple than
[24:18] Speaker 1: a cruise missile engine, which is either a turbojet or
[24:21] Speaker 1: a turbofan engine, simply because a turbofan engine has has
[24:28] Speaker 1: many more moving parts, much higher degree of required reliability,
[24:34] Speaker 1: a greater a greater degree of variability in terms of
[24:38] Speaker 1: performance requirements. Uh. And the fact that unlike a ballistic
[24:42] Speaker 1: missile which you know, which is powered by by by
[24:46] Speaker 1: multi stage rocket motors or rocket engines, takes a ballistic
[24:50] Speaker 1: path which is a fairly predictable, uh you know path
[24:53] Speaker 1: once it's launched, with very little, very little room for maneuver.
[24:58] Speaker 1: There is some room for maneuver, but not very much.
[25:00] Speaker 1: A cruise missile is basically a remote controlled aircraft. It's
[25:03] Speaker 1: an aircraft that can, depending on what kind of engine
[25:06] Speaker 1: it has, can fly either blindingly fast like them bramos,
[25:11] Speaker 1: or it can be you know, a fairly fairly stable,
[25:15] Speaker 1: slow kind of missile, like the one that India has
[25:18] Speaker 1: just tested. In either case, the engine is extremely important
[25:24] Speaker 1: because it is basically giving the missile its speed and
[25:30] Speaker 1: kinetic energy through its entire journey. Just think of one
[25:34] Speaker 1: thousand kilometers there, it's an enormous amount of distance. Enormous distance.
[25:39] Speaker 1: The Scalp missiles that Russia, that the Ukraine has just
[25:44] Speaker 1: been cleared to fire into Russia has a range of
[25:48] Speaker 1: somewhere between three hundred and five hundred kilometers. If I'm
[25:50] Speaker 1: not mistaken, it's an air launched cruise missile with a
[25:53] Speaker 1: range of nearly five hundred kilometers is colossal. It's a
[25:57] Speaker 1: colossal game changing kind of you know, weapons capability. But
[26:02] Speaker 1: ultimately getting a missile to be able to maintain that
[26:06] Speaker 1: kind of speed, kinetic energy, be maneuverable and guideable through
[26:12] Speaker 1: that entire journey means it needs to have a reliable
[26:15] Speaker 1: engine that is simply relentlessly, tirelessly pushing and powering that
[26:20] Speaker 1: missile without any failure whatsoever. The smallest of failure means
[26:25] Speaker 1: that missile drops out of the sky. And these missiles
[26:28] Speaker 1: are not cheap, okay, they are millions of dollars each.
[26:32] Speaker 1: Each Scalp costs like you know, three four million dollars
[26:35] Speaker 1: a pop, so they're not cheap. So the so everything
[26:39] Speaker 1: comes down to the engine. The turbofan engine Manic. The
[26:43] Speaker 1: name I'm sure is probably from you know, some scientists
[26:46] Speaker 1: who must have been involved with it during the initial stages.
[26:50] Speaker 1: They're usually little inside things about these things. I'm not
[26:53] Speaker 1: sure who exactly it's named after. But but you know,
[26:56] Speaker 1: like for instance, Attel Bhrivajpai gave the stages its name UH,
[27:01] Speaker 1: and there are various other There's no real set protocol
[27:04] Speaker 1: in terms of naming, but I imagine that the Manic
[27:06] Speaker 1: gets its name from some some big scientist on the
[27:09] Speaker 1: team now or in the past. But the Manic represents,
[27:13] Speaker 1: in my view, you know, an incredible success of the
[27:17] Speaker 1: Indian Military Research Establishment UH and the DRDO and our
[27:22] Speaker 1: you know, aerospace scientists and engineers get a lot of flak,
[27:25] Speaker 1: most of it justified with not being able to deliver
[27:28] Speaker 1: cost over runs, time over runs, you know, not being
[27:31] Speaker 1: able to give the customer what they want in a
[27:33] Speaker 1: timely fashion. But the but the manic turbofan engine is
[27:37] Speaker 1: something that will go beyond cruise miss hands. It means
[27:40] Speaker 1: that they've mastered an art that has been elusive to
[27:43] Speaker 1: India for decades together. It means that the same guys
[27:48] Speaker 1: who've made the Manich can perhaps scale it up into
[27:51] Speaker 1: bigger things. The Manic engine could could be you know,
[27:54] Speaker 1: if it is scaled up into a slightly more powerful
[27:57] Speaker 1: power plant. It could. It could. It could potentially power
[28:02] Speaker 1: India's combat drones in the future. Uh, it could, it
[28:06] Speaker 1: could it could power small aircraft in the future. Uh.
[28:11] Speaker 1: There are export possibilities. There are all these things that
[28:14] Speaker 1: happen once you're able to build engines. Look at the
[28:16] Speaker 1: United States, the UK, France, Russia, you know, the countries
[28:20] Speaker 1: that have mastered the art of making jet engines. All
[28:24] Speaker 1: aircraft in the world are basically powered by engines built
[28:28] Speaker 1: by four or five countries. Right. All aircraft and all
[28:32] Speaker 1: aviation carriers and all air forces are completely dependent on
[28:36] Speaker 1: those engine suppliers. And it is not an ideal situation
[28:41] Speaker 1: for India when it comes to weapon weapon engines, and
[28:45] Speaker 1: therefore the Manich is hugely, hugely important when we come
[28:48] Speaker 1: to the when we come to ramjet and scramjet, which
[28:51] Speaker 1: are your next generation, you know, very very high velocity weapons.
[28:56] Speaker 1: India is taking taking extremely promise sing steps there the
[29:01] Speaker 1: testing of its hypersonic glide vehicle. The testing of this
[29:05] Speaker 1: new hypersonic weapon, where the where the propulsion system I
[29:08] Speaker 1: have to I have to admit, is still a bit
[29:10] Speaker 1: of a mystery. People are still going to ask you that.
[29:12] Speaker 1: People are still speculating as to what is this. Is
[29:15] Speaker 1: it a rocket motor, is it a quasi ballistic missile,
[29:18] Speaker 1: is it a short range ballistic missile system? Nobody really
[29:21] Speaker 1: knows just yet. You know, nobody knows what kind of
[29:23] Speaker 1: path the missile is taken because no information has been revealed.
[29:26] Speaker 1: And I I'm not surprised. It's a it's a secretive
[29:29] Speaker 1: weapon that the reality of which will come out a
[29:32] Speaker 1: little later. But as a long range anti ship missile, uh,
[29:35] Speaker 1: you know, the not very much can actually be said
[29:38] Speaker 1: about it at this point of time. But all of
[29:40] Speaker 1: these tests, the manic, the hypersonic missile, the Brumos too,
[29:45] Speaker 1: whenever it comes, which is going to be a you know,
[29:48] Speaker 1: a very very advanced hypersonic missile system, basically means that
[29:51] Speaker 1: India is kind of firing on all fronts literally and figuratively,
[29:56] Speaker 1: you know, you know, from your slow manic to your hypers,
[30:00] Speaker 1: to your rocket motors, to your multi stage missiles. It
[30:04] Speaker 1: basically means that India is taking no chances. It wants
[30:06] Speaker 1: to be a master at all of these things. And
[30:09] Speaker 1: I think fabulous, because if you have the engine right,
[30:13] Speaker 1: you can just build anything over those engines. So that's
[30:15] Speaker 1: what's working.
[30:16] Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, right, A good point about you know, engines,
[30:20] Speaker 2: because I think when we talked about the tages in
[30:23] Speaker 2: one for recent episodes, and especially the delay and the
[30:26] Speaker 2: deliveries of the THESA, I think they still haven't begun.
[30:28] Speaker 2: By the way. The reason was and the number one
[30:31] Speaker 2: reason the reasons as well, but the number one reason
[30:33] Speaker 2: was the delay in the supply of engines from the US.
[30:35] Speaker 2: And you had said even back then that if India
[30:38] Speaker 2: had somehow managed to salvage perhaps the Carvery engine project,
[30:43] Speaker 2: maybe this perhaps would not be a day we would see.
[30:45] Speaker 2: And you know, like you said, if the Monk is
[30:47] Speaker 2: kind of upscale, perhaps the future they just marked two
[30:51] Speaker 2: could be powered by that instead of maybe a US
[30:53] Speaker 2: or a Western import. I think that might not be
[30:57] Speaker 2: comfortable for the development to happen, right, Yeah, So I
[31:01] Speaker 2: was I wasn't even going to ask about the RAJ stranded,
[31:03] Speaker 2: but like you said, because you you've said it's taking
[31:05] Speaker 2: very promising steps. So I think, I guess I'll leave
[31:07] Speaker 2: it at that because I know that the Bramos ramjet
[31:10] Speaker 2: engine was actually UH developed with the help of Russian tech,
[31:14] Speaker 2: but it's produced in India. But I'm guessing, like you said,
[31:16] Speaker 2: that we're taking some good babies.
[31:18] Speaker 1: All of these tests basically show that the steps that
[31:21] Speaker 1: India has taken, UH, you know, are are visible. Yes,
[31:25] Speaker 1: these are not these are not theoretical projects on side
[31:27] Speaker 1: websites somewhere or in a period file. We literally see
[31:31] Speaker 1: videos of those tests taking place. Which is which is
[31:34] Speaker 1: in my view is UH is incredible because these are
[31:38] Speaker 1: you know, they've the you know, all these the laboratories
[31:40] Speaker 1: doing these tests you know, which come under the DRDO,
[31:44] Speaker 1: are very very secretive. You never really see these scientists
[31:48] Speaker 1: out there and these aerospace engineers out there. So I
[31:51] Speaker 1: I you know, I I applaud them because they live
[31:55] Speaker 1: lives of a great deal of secrecy. Between Bengaluru, Hyderabad
[31:59] Speaker 1: and the apg Abdulkalam islands off the coast of Bodiesia,
[32:02] Speaker 1: highly classified projects tests. The only time you ever hear
[32:06] Speaker 1: that a missile test is going to happen is because
[32:08] Speaker 1: of a notification or a note tame that's been issued
[32:11] Speaker 1: which you see on Twitter, which are you know, which
[32:14] Speaker 1: are OCCENT analysts will put out saying missile testes range.
[32:19] Speaker 1: Like I said, you know, there's there's a new noteame
[32:21] Speaker 1: that's out for the next few days which seems to
[32:24] Speaker 1: be a submarine launched ballistic missile. So so even beta
[32:28] Speaker 1: degree of excitement k K four he you know all
[32:31] Speaker 1: that's happening right now. So it's a it's a it's
[32:35] Speaker 1: amazing work that they're doing. Believe me. I mean, they
[32:38] Speaker 1: get a lot of flak. We've given them so much
[32:41] Speaker 1: flak here, right, you know, saying that you know, when
[32:44] Speaker 1: they fail, they fail, and they should be called out.
[32:46] Speaker 1: But but in equal measure and with equal sort of emphasis,
[32:50] Speaker 1: I'd like to say when they succeed, I think they
[32:53] Speaker 1: deserve a great deal of applause. Because we can't name them,
[32:58] Speaker 1: we can't show their faces. But they're doing fabulous work men, women,
[33:02] Speaker 1: young Indians doing amazing aerospace engineering work in all these
[33:06] Speaker 1: laboratories and getting these weapons systems out there, I think
[33:08] Speaker 1: is really national service.
[33:11] Speaker 2: Yeah. I com reently second that, and I mean the
[33:13] Speaker 2: missile program that is the ballistic one or the cruise
[33:16] Speaker 2: one is the fabrious example of that. I think what
[33:18] Speaker 2: you just said and obviously, well come back to that
[33:21] Speaker 2: towards the end of the episode. We'll now talk about
[33:24] Speaker 2: what missiles and dat it does have right now, the
[33:26] Speaker 2: entire cruise just cruise missards, obviously, the entire cruise missile
[33:29] Speaker 2: inventory and what's going to come up again in the future.
[33:32] Speaker 3: But after a quick day, do you sometimes get frustrated
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[33:53] Speaker 3: special podcast on World Diabetes Day, which is the fourteenth
[33:57] Speaker 3: of November. Tune in and discover with me what nutrients
[34:01] Speaker 3: diabetics should be having and how to supplement your diet
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[34:08] Speaker 3: episode on our website, YouTube, Apple, Spotify and other audio
[34:14] Speaker 3: streaming platforms.
[34:21] Speaker 2: Welcome back, Save and I are discussing India's cruise missiles
[34:24] Speaker 2: and the cruise missile program for the second time in
[34:27] Speaker 2: around six months, this time in the context of two
[34:31] Speaker 2: launches test launches of missiles that happened this week. Maiden
[34:34] Speaker 2: launches on paper. But like you've said, these were not
[34:37] Speaker 2: actually made in launches. They were made in launches for
[34:39] Speaker 2: the public, which kind of explains the question I've always had, Key,
[34:43] Speaker 2: how come all these test launches never failed? Turns out
[34:47] Speaker 2: there must have been some phase launches, because obviously on
[34:49] Speaker 2: a project like this you will expect some practical failures
[34:53] Speaker 2: when you go test something like this. But they only,
[34:56] Speaker 2: I'm guessing, do that made in public launch or test
[34:59] Speaker 2: launch when they're fairly confident high the success so we
[35:02] Speaker 2: can announce the world hero this is coming or we
[35:04] Speaker 2: have this, so talking about we have this or this
[35:08] Speaker 2: is coming. Take us to the inventory that we have
[35:10] Speaker 2: right now of cruise missiles once acond. We'll avoid the
[35:13] Speaker 2: ballistics missiles because when you bring that in then it
[35:16] Speaker 2: becomes too much of of things to talk about. And
[35:18] Speaker 2: we've done a separate episode on it all together like
[35:21] Speaker 2: and we'll have a link to that in the show Roades.
[35:23] Speaker 2: Take us to the Cruise India's cruise missile inventory. Uh,
[35:26] Speaker 2: And I think the best way for you to do
[35:28] Speaker 2: that is the way we enjoy hypotheticals. Let's tick conflict
[35:33] Speaker 2: and all out raging conflict with China. You have your
[35:37] Speaker 2: land border, you have the skies, and you obviously have
[35:40] Speaker 2: the Indian Ocean. With the current crop of missiles that
[35:44] Speaker 2: we have, what is it hypothetically that India can do?
[35:48] Speaker 2: And then obviously, as you ended, tell us what's coming
[35:51] Speaker 2: in this inventory in the future.
[35:52] Speaker 1: So so, uh, the first point that you asked you
[35:55] Speaker 1: mentioned in your question they've about you know, successful missile tests.
[35:59] Speaker 1: Let me let me tell you that there have been
[36:03] Speaker 1: missile test failures, even when it comes to India's cruise missiles.
[36:07] Speaker 1: You know, a couple of nearby tests have you know,
[36:10] Speaker 1: quote unquote failed. And the reason why I say quote
[36:13] Speaker 1: unquote failed is because there is actually no such thing
[36:16] Speaker 1: as failure when it comes to testing. The whole point
[36:19] Speaker 1: of a test is to see how things look. When
[36:23] Speaker 1: you know, in an actual sort of you know, active
[36:25] Speaker 1: kinetic scenario. It's one thing to uh, you know, simulate
[36:29] Speaker 1: missiles on a computer and look at them through you
[36:32] Speaker 1: know CAD and engineering software. Uh and you know fluid
[36:37] Speaker 1: fluid testing and things like that, wind tunnel testing and stuff.
[36:40] Speaker 1: But when you actually fire it in the real world
[36:43] Speaker 1: is when you learn something about it. So, you know,
[36:45] Speaker 1: a famous missile scientist had told me this there's no
[36:47] Speaker 1: such thing as a failed missile test. Because as a
[36:50] Speaker 1: young report I had asked him once, you know, but
[36:52] Speaker 1: this failed or that failed. He said, there's no such
[36:54] Speaker 1: thing as failure. You know, we we will keep testing it.
[36:58] Speaker 1: Uh and uh and and I remember him telling me,
[37:00] Speaker 1: I think it was an nakash test that it failed
[37:02] Speaker 1: many years ago, failed quote unquote, and he said, you
[37:06] Speaker 1: know when it, as you say, failed, we learned something
[37:11] Speaker 1: about the guidance system. We learned something about the motor.
[37:14] Speaker 1: We learned something about certain procedures we were using wild
[37:18] Speaker 1: testing which were perhaps faulty, which worked in simulation but
[37:22] Speaker 1: didn't work in the real world. So we knew how
[37:24] Speaker 1: to avoid those things in the next missile we build.
[37:27] Speaker 1: So there is no such thing as a failure because
[37:29] Speaker 1: in a test, we're not firing that missile at somebody, right,
[37:32] Speaker 1: We're testing it only for ourselves. So where that missile
[37:36] Speaker 1: launches lands makes no difference. So that was a big
[37:39] Speaker 1: learning for me, So very importantly, no such thing as
[37:42] Speaker 1: a failed missile test. Everything is a learning makes things better.
[37:46] Speaker 1: The next time the missile tested, you know, much more,
[37:50] Speaker 1: many more learnings will go into it. So it's important
[37:53] Speaker 1: now the India China scenario. You know, again, the truth
[37:58] Speaker 1: of the matter is that India, even when it comes
[38:02] Speaker 1: to missiles, cruise missiles especially, has been playing catch up.
[38:06] Speaker 1: Now the bad news first, as always, and then I'll
[38:10] Speaker 1: tell you why there's a lot to celebrate when it
[38:14] Speaker 1: comes to hypersonic weapons. Even the United States acknowledges that
[38:19] Speaker 1: China is at the forefront, even the United States. The
[38:23] Speaker 1: United States is a country which is not in second
[38:26] Speaker 1: position in any form of warfare, any form of warfare, missiles, aircraft,
[38:30] Speaker 1: aircraft carriers, nuclear, cyber warfare, data, whatever it is, any
[38:35] Speaker 1: sphere of warfare. The United States is globally acknowledged as
[38:40] Speaker 1: being Numero who because they've got a vaster defense budget
[38:43] Speaker 1: than all other countries in the world put together. Right,
[38:46] Speaker 1: So for the United States to acknowledge that they're playing
[38:50] Speaker 1: catch up with China when it comes to hypersonic weapons
[38:53] Speaker 1: should make all of us wonder So where does that
[38:55] Speaker 1: leave India. Then We've just tested like a couple of
[38:57] Speaker 1: hypersonic weapons, So where are in this whole race the
[39:02] Speaker 1: So so that's the not so good news that we're
[39:04] Speaker 1: still paying catch up, but the fact that we're testing
[39:07] Speaker 1: them and that we now have the technology to take
[39:09] Speaker 1: things further, means we're in this game. India is definitely
[39:12] Speaker 1: in this game. Whether it's going to be an arms race,
[39:15] Speaker 1: whether it's going to be a you know, a game
[39:17] Speaker 1: of balance of power in the Indo Pacific, India is
[39:20] Speaker 1: in there. India is not going to have to you know,
[39:23] Speaker 1: sit by the sidelines and watch and wait for some
[39:25] Speaker 1: country to give us this technology, et cetera. We're in
[39:27] Speaker 1: this game. So that's the good news. As far as
[39:30] Speaker 1: cruise missiles is concerned. You know, again, when one talks
[39:34] Speaker 1: of weapons, we should always you know, contextualize what we're
[39:39] Speaker 1: hoping to achieve with those weapons. Weapons ultimately are just
[39:42] Speaker 1: a you know, a bomb attached to a rocket that
[39:46] Speaker 1: that's going to you know, spoil someone's day. It's going
[39:48] Speaker 1: to destroy something at the end of its journey. Now
[39:51] Speaker 1: what are you hoping to achieve with that? Are you
[39:53] Speaker 1: hoping to completely dissuade Chinese ships from coming at you.
[39:58] Speaker 1: You've got Bramos missiles. You've got Bromos missiles. It can
[40:01] Speaker 1: be launched by Indian Navy ships. You've got Bromos missiles
[40:04] Speaker 1: that can be launched by Indian Air Force sooth thirties
[40:08] Speaker 1: that are stationed in Tanjabur in Tamil Nadu, which means
[40:11] Speaker 1: that any Chinese ship that potentially tries to do anything
[40:16] Speaker 1: funny in the Indian Ocean is going to be within
[40:19] Speaker 1: possibly a target for a Brumos missile. You've got the
[40:22] Speaker 1: l R L a c M missile that will come online.
[40:25] Speaker 1: It's a mission mode missile, which means it has to
[40:27] Speaker 1: come online not decade later, but within a few years.
[40:31] Speaker 1: It's already been tested successfully with the manic engine, which
[40:34] Speaker 1: means all systems go maybe a few more tests and
[40:36] Speaker 1: it'll be operational. You know what launch mechanism, et cetera.
[40:40] Speaker 1: Those are things that will be easily sorted out. You've
[40:43] Speaker 1: got those. You've got the Scalp, a cruise missile which
[40:46] Speaker 1: is already in service operational with the Indian Air Force
[40:49] Speaker 1: using its ra file fighters. You've got the You've got
[40:53] Speaker 1: the land launched Brumos missiles, which now have you know
[40:57] Speaker 1: there's a there's a program to extend their range beyond
[41:00] Speaker 1: three hundred kilometers. There's going to be an extended range
[41:02] Speaker 1: Bromos of it could go all the way to a
[41:04] Speaker 1: thousand kilometers if necessary. With a new engine. You've got
[41:07] Speaker 1: the hypersonic Bromos too, which which is currently if my
[41:11] Speaker 1: information is correct, in the final stages of h you know,
[41:14] Speaker 1: proof of concept and definition, et cetera. You should see
[41:17] Speaker 1: that missile come online to the towards the latter half
[41:21] Speaker 1: of this decade. So you've got these are all your
[41:24] Speaker 1: cruise missile systems that are there. Then you've got your ramjet, scramjet,
[41:29] Speaker 1: uh you know, engined possibilities that could come in the future,
[41:34] Speaker 1: hypersonic you know, a cruise missile in the future if
[41:39] Speaker 1: the tests that are currently happening yield reliable technology as
[41:44] Speaker 1: far as those propulsion systems are concerned. All of this
[41:47] Speaker 1: means that the same kind of successes that India has
[41:50] Speaker 1: had with ballistic missiles is very much within within reach
[41:54] Speaker 1: when it comes to the far more complicated science of
[41:57] Speaker 1: cruise missiles, from Marnik to hypersonic to ramjets, scramsgit, whatever
[42:01] Speaker 1: you're talking about. To repeat myself, India is literally firing
[42:05] Speaker 1: in all those all those areas. China has missiles which
[42:09] Speaker 1: it mostly reverse engineers from other countries. But the same
[42:14] Speaker 1: kind of race that China is is in with the
[42:17] Speaker 1: United States. You know, we don't. We don't sort of
[42:20] Speaker 1: participate in that kind of global arms race that China
[42:23] Speaker 1: is part of, you know, with Russia and the United States.
[42:25] Speaker 1: But for India's the requirements, India's regional needs. And when
[42:30] Speaker 1: we talk about regional needs, we're basically talking about China.
[42:32] Speaker 1: We're not talking about anybody else. Uh, you know, India
[42:35] Speaker 1: has either has weapons systems and doctrines or is developing
[42:40] Speaker 1: them at a at a reasonably good rate. There there's
[42:43] Speaker 1: a long journey to go. It's not like everything's hunky dory,
[42:46] Speaker 1: you know, we have everything we need. There are huge
[42:48] Speaker 1: gaps and we've discussed those when it comes to long
[42:51] Speaker 1: range weapons, where it comes to air defense, when it
[42:53] Speaker 1: comes to delivery systems, when it comes to the navy itself,
[42:56] Speaker 1: there are huge gaps. But but things are moving well
[42:59] Speaker 1: and there's the reason for chuir when it comes to
[43:01] Speaker 1: missile systems.
[43:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, right, you know, to and the and the show
[43:05] Speaker 2: slightly at abstract question, but still I'll go there. How
[43:08] Speaker 2: do you see the legacy of the Brumos projector the
[43:12] Speaker 2: successful Promos projector and it's it's it's impact on the
[43:17] Speaker 2: ongoing what's happened in the last few years Indian missile research,
[43:20] Speaker 2: because I'll tell you something. When I was going through
[43:22] Speaker 2: the list of missiles that India has, and I'm not
[43:24] Speaker 2: just talking about cruise missus, right, I'm even talking about
[43:27] Speaker 2: something at the level of the tactical level, something that
[43:29] Speaker 2: you know a unit in the army would use to
[43:31] Speaker 2: like fire, maybe fifty klometers across, hundred kumeters across, stuff
[43:34] Speaker 2: like that. A majority of it is Indian. You may
[43:37] Speaker 2: have some miserable systems. You have a couple of Russian systems,
[43:40] Speaker 2: maybe something from Europe, but a majority of it, I
[43:43] Speaker 2: would if you if I has had, I guess it
[43:45] Speaker 2: would be a thing in the range of eighty percent
[43:47] Speaker 2: is usual mostly Indian. Yes, like you mentioned again and
[43:51] Speaker 2: against some of those systems might be Indied on paper,
[43:54] Speaker 2: but you know that there's some of the crucial elements
[43:56] Speaker 2: would be foreign. But anyway, what I'm trying to get
[43:59] Speaker 2: at is the promo system, it's success, how much of
[44:03] Speaker 2: an impact it has had in terms of branching out
[44:06] Speaker 2: into all these other missiles that we're so confidently doing that,
[44:09] Speaker 2: And do you think we're able to avoid the mistake
[44:12] Speaker 2: that the Indian Air Force has famously made of you know,
[44:15] Speaker 2: having different aircraft types and with different engines and different
[44:18] Speaker 2: spare parts and different mechanics and stuff like that. And
[44:21] Speaker 2: with your missile systems, you have this one basic community
[44:24] Speaker 2: that you know, you have the basic systems in place,
[44:27] Speaker 2: and you have various versions of it. Because when I
[44:29] Speaker 2: was looking at the missiles of the Indian missiles, it
[44:32] Speaker 2: kind of reminded me of what you once had described
[44:34] Speaker 2: what would be an idle scenario that you have this
[44:36] Speaker 2: one basic aircraft type for you Indian air Force, and
[44:39] Speaker 2: then you have different versions of those aircraft, different variants
[44:42] Speaker 2: so to speak, one that can you know, do surveillance,
[44:44] Speaker 2: one that can you know, fire fire bombs? Sorry, the
[44:47] Speaker 2: other could do something else and stuff like this, so
[44:49] Speaker 2: on and so forth. Are we there and are we
[44:51] Speaker 2: heading there? With missiles in India?
[44:53] Speaker 1: So so it's a it's a it's a super important
[44:56] Speaker 1: question because this is something that faces the government every
[44:59] Speaker 1: single day now. So there are two there are two examples,
[45:02] Speaker 1: live examples of partnerships between India and another country for
[45:06] Speaker 1: a missile system that have been very, very successful. And
[45:09] Speaker 1: when I say partnership, I don't mean technology comes here
[45:12] Speaker 1: and we make it here and we produce it and
[45:14] Speaker 1: we sell it or inducted into the military. I mean
[45:19] Speaker 1: a real sort of partnership in terms of joint development
[45:23] Speaker 1: and joint production where both countries militaries then by what
[45:27] Speaker 1: is being developed. One of them is the Bromos, even
[45:30] Speaker 1: though there was a long lead time before the Russian
[45:32] Speaker 1: military acquired the systems as well. The other is the Barakhtu,
[45:37] Speaker 1: which is an Indo Israeli weapons system. In India, it's
[45:41] Speaker 1: called the long Range Surface to a Missile. It's already
[45:43] Speaker 1: in service with the Indian Navy. It's called the m
[45:47] Speaker 1: R SAM in the Indian Air Force and the Indian Army.
[45:50] Speaker 1: Highly successful and proof of concept business models where two
[45:55] Speaker 1: countries have come together, put their you know, their no
[46:00] Speaker 1: how and their expertise in weapons development together and produced
[46:03] Speaker 1: a specific weapon for both countries' requirements. Now, the only
[46:08] Speaker 1: problem with such partnerships there is that they're pretty unique.
[46:12] Speaker 1: You know, one would imagine logically speaking like you said that, Okay,
[46:16] Speaker 1: so this model works, So why can't we just expand
[46:18] Speaker 1: it into other weapons and you know, replicate this model elsewhere.
[46:23] Speaker 1: It's the thing is, it's not that simple. It's not
[46:26] Speaker 1: that simple. India has attempted to do, you know, make
[46:30] Speaker 1: a similar model with France, didn't quite work out. India decided,
[46:34] Speaker 1: you know, we don't need foreign help for certain things.
[46:37] Speaker 1: You know, where India needs help, like for example, with
[46:41] Speaker 1: the Brumos because there was no weapon like it anywhere
[46:44] Speaker 1: in the in the world. With the l R SAM,
[46:47] Speaker 1: it needed Israeli expertise. Because India was still having a
[46:50] Speaker 1: little bit of trouble in terms of, you know, the
[46:53] Speaker 1: more advanced systems required in surface to wear missiles, it
[46:58] Speaker 1: needed Israeli help. Israel was happy to get into a
[47:01] Speaker 1: project with India that spawned it. But in all other
[47:05] Speaker 1: missile projects, especially like the ones we've discussed India, India
[47:09] Speaker 1: is fully confident of doing it doing it alone. It
[47:12] Speaker 1: doesn't need A, doesn't need foreign help. B. It doesn't
[47:17] Speaker 1: see the geopolitical value of a partnership in that particular sphere.
[47:21] Speaker 1: The United States has offered India, you know, partnerships in
[47:25] Speaker 1: terms of co development and co production of certain missile systems,
[47:28] Speaker 1: where India said, no, we want to do this alone.
[47:29] Speaker 1: We don't want to do it with somebody else. So
[47:32] Speaker 1: so India has been very very prudent on this podcast.
[47:37] Speaker 1: You know, our listeners have gotten used to, you know,
[47:40] Speaker 1: Dave and Shive calling out all the areas where India
[47:43] Speaker 1: has not been imprudent in defense, and I no regrets those.
[47:47] Speaker 1: I stand by all of the things that we've called
[47:49] Speaker 1: out here on this podcast. But when it comes to missiles, partnerships, projects,
[47:55] Speaker 1: et cetera, especially international projects, the prudence that the system
[47:58] Speaker 1: has shown, and this is not just this government, earlier
[48:00] Speaker 1: governments too. There, Sam, the Bromos are all from earlier governments,
[48:04] Speaker 1: are extremely smart decisions. This is India acknowledging that we've
[48:10] Speaker 1: got a good thing going when it comes to aerospace
[48:13] Speaker 1: missile tech in this country. Now we will be smart
[48:16] Speaker 1: and decide to partner with somebody else when it comes
[48:20] Speaker 1: to a certain amount of technology advancement that we are
[48:23] Speaker 1: absolutely certain we can't do ourselves, or we will partner
[48:27] Speaker 1: up with them in terms of some types of technology
[48:31] Speaker 1: and go but largely do it ourselves. So I think
[48:35] Speaker 1: missiles is one sphere where where India takes each each
[48:40] Speaker 1: different requirement, each different missile on a case to case basis.
[48:43] Speaker 1: It doesn't want to say, okay, LRSM and Bromos are there,
[48:47] Speaker 1: let's just scale up this model and do all our
[48:49] Speaker 1: missiles in this way because it'll just get done faster.
[48:52] Speaker 1: India is protective about its own IP. You know, most
[48:55] Speaker 1: people don't even recognize this when they talk about Indian
[48:58] Speaker 1: weapons systems and they say, the wealth of intellectual property
[49:03] Speaker 1: that Indian aerospace engineers and scientists have made through decades
[49:09] Speaker 1: and years of expertise and missile science is something that
[49:13] Speaker 1: nobody wants to acknowledge. Very few people want to acknowledge.
[49:15] Speaker 1: This is incredibly priceless data and IP that India is
[49:20] Speaker 1: sitting on. It's just a question of how much more
[49:24] Speaker 1: we can leverage all of this so other countries stand
[49:26] Speaker 1: to gain from India's expertise.
[49:28] Speaker 2: I would say I completely agree with that, and I
[49:31] Speaker 2: think all your friends in the defense pr pro business
[49:35] Speaker 2: would really want us to always talk about missiles and
[49:38] Speaker 2: not anything else, because you're right, when it comes to
[49:40] Speaker 2: the topic of missiles, you really can't find faults anyway.
[49:43] Speaker 2: You really can't even find incidence episodes. I'm pretty sure
[49:46] Speaker 2: there must have been something that happened at the at
[49:48] Speaker 2: a minor level, something that you know, didn't happen the
[49:51] Speaker 2: way it should have happened, and stuff like that. Some
[49:53] Speaker 2: overexpenses here and there, But if you look at the
[49:55] Speaker 2: broader picture, the larger, larger picture, more or less you've
[49:58] Speaker 2: got everything going right, like you said, fighting on all
[50:02] Speaker 2: engines and more or less achieving what it's set out
[50:05] Speaker 2: to achieve, and developing a good enough repository of missiles
[50:08] Speaker 2: are good enough, you know, arsenal of these of these weapons,
[50:12] Speaker 2: some of which are of mass destruction, which is the
[50:15] Speaker 2: point I want to end this episode on. When you
[50:19] Speaker 2: see how missiles have been used this year in actual
[50:23] Speaker 2: life conflicts, it's sort of a very contrasting picture for me,
[50:27] Speaker 2: because here we are sitting and talking about how these
[50:29] Speaker 2: missiles can cause mass destruction, they will level places, they
[50:32] Speaker 2: will kill hundreds and thousands of people. Yet you had
[50:35] Speaker 2: Iran firing a barrage of missiles into into Israel. Several
[50:39] Speaker 2: of them were shot down, some of many of them
[50:41] Speaker 2: were cruise missiles. You've had Ukraine recently using the US
[50:46] Speaker 2: missiles that it was authorized to by Biden, and then,
[50:48] Speaker 2: like you said, the storm Shadow missiles from the UK
[50:50] Speaker 2: firing them towards Russia. You had Russia responding just before
[50:53] Speaker 2: we began recording this episode with ICBM. ICBM like it
[50:57] Speaker 2: sounds like, oh my god, once an ICBMs is launched,
[51:00] Speaker 2: that said end of straight tata by by the end
[51:03] Speaker 2: of the world. Right, if it has a ballistic miss
[51:05] Speaker 2: what head, which in this case it did not. Yet.
[51:07] Speaker 2: My point is you don't really see a lot of damage.
[51:10] Speaker 2: The target country obviously will obviously always say yeah, it
[51:13] Speaker 2: just hit some building here and there, some stones here,
[51:16] Speaker 2: and then nothing much happened. The attacking country bills will say, key,
[51:19] Speaker 2: our mission was fulfilled by what we set out to
[51:21] Speaker 2: we did. But even in the aftermath, the days later,
[51:24] Speaker 2: weeks later, you don't really see those satellite imagery. You
[51:26] Speaker 2: don't really see actual heart pictures that show you mass destruction.
[51:29] Speaker 2: That The reason I'm asking is, look at movies. Look
[51:32] Speaker 2: at something like let's say Iron Man. If you remember
[51:35] Speaker 2: iron Man, see the movie one when when Robert Downey Junior,
[51:39] Speaker 2: who plays Iron Man, was this was set trying to
[51:41] Speaker 2: sell some missiles to the US military. He gave us
[51:44] Speaker 2: this picture of an entire hillside being completely obiliitated by
[51:47] Speaker 2: a missile strike. Right, you don't see that really happening
[51:50] Speaker 2: in the real world. You also see a lot of
[51:52] Speaker 2: these missiles being taken down the expenses get really, really high.
[51:55] Speaker 2: There are questions already being raised by the way of
[51:58] Speaker 2: how much you can spend on you using the US
[52:00] Speaker 2: missile that it has been allowed. So when it comes
[52:02] Speaker 2: to the reality of using these missiles and what happens
[52:05] Speaker 2: in a real world conflict, how do you explain that
[52:07] Speaker 2: what's happened in the last one.
[52:09] Speaker 1: The short answer to all of this is that the
[52:12] Speaker 1: reason why you don't see a great deal of destruction
[52:15] Speaker 1: when you see missile exchanges is often because missiles are
[52:18] Speaker 1: also a message. A missile is not just about affecting
[52:23] Speaker 1: a huge amount of destruction at the other end, it's
[52:25] Speaker 1: also basically telling your enemy country I can reach you,
[52:30] Speaker 1: which is what happened between Iran and Israel. Iran's missile
[52:35] Speaker 1: barrage was designed in such a way as to basically
[52:39] Speaker 1: tell Israel, all of your cities, all your air bases,
[52:42] Speaker 1: all your population centers are within the reach of my missiles.
[52:47] Speaker 1: Now I'm launching all these missiles. I'm deliberately not launching
[52:50] Speaker 1: them at places where you know anything is going to
[52:53] Speaker 1: be destroyed, because I'm sending you a message. Similarly with Israel,
[52:58] Speaker 1: where it sends a whole bunch of missiles into Iran.
[53:02] Speaker 1: You will see some damage, you will see some fires,
[53:05] Speaker 1: but the missile is the message. Contrast this with Russia Ukraine,
[53:10] Speaker 1: where you do see large scale devastation there. They've there
[53:15] Speaker 1: is no shortage of imagery of damage that has been
[53:19] Speaker 1: caused by missiles. Not so much now, but in the
[53:21] Speaker 1: first few months of the invasion in the war, the
[53:25] Speaker 1: kind of hellscapes that have been created in different cities
[53:28] Speaker 1: of Ukraine because of missile damage was very, very apparent,
[53:32] Speaker 1: because at that point Russia's message was very clear. It
[53:36] Speaker 1: was to to to create a kind of shock and
[53:39] Speaker 1: awe situation, you know days Zelenski's Ukraine into submission. Perhaps uh,
[53:47] Speaker 1: batter them, batter their cities, reduce their cities to piles
[53:50] Speaker 1: of ash, which is what happened to many cities, and
[53:54] Speaker 1: the destructive quality and impact of missiles was very visible there.
[53:58] Speaker 1: But as the war war on, it became a question
[54:02] Speaker 1: of like what is this destruction even achieving. Then it
[54:06] Speaker 1: became about much more targeted strikes, not kind of bombardments,
[54:10] Speaker 1: but much more targeted strikes of certain facilities, a nuclear facility,
[54:14] Speaker 1: an energy facility, you know, an electricity board office, those
[54:18] Speaker 1: kinds of things in order to try and cripple cripple
[54:21] Speaker 1: Ukraine in a more targeted sort of way. Similarly with
[54:25] Speaker 1: the you know, with the drone attacks on the Kremlin
[54:28] Speaker 1: wherever they will actually launch from, the idea was not
[54:31] Speaker 1: to destroy the Kremlin, but to tell Russia that my
[54:35] Speaker 1: drones or my missiles can reach you where you are,
[54:37] Speaker 1: so you are vulnerable, you are not completely safe. So
[54:41] Speaker 1: I still say that we live in a world right
[54:43] Speaker 1: now where we're seeing a lot of missile warfare where
[54:46] Speaker 1: the missile is the message, and it's become about that.
[54:50] Speaker 1: It's now about you're not safe where you're sitting. You
[54:53] Speaker 1: might think you're safe. You might think you've got your
[54:55] Speaker 1: S four hundreds and S five hundreds and all your
[54:58] Speaker 1: ballistic missile systems anti ballistic missile systems you know, in
[55:04] Speaker 1: full in full glare, and all your radars on. But
[55:07] Speaker 1: my missiles can still reach you. That's what that's what
[55:09] Speaker 1: this is really all about. And I think that's something
[55:12] Speaker 1: to be thankful for as well, because because once missiles
[55:16] Speaker 1: start being used with a huge amount of destructive intent,
[55:22] Speaker 1: that is that is instantly escalatory, that becomes much more escalatory.
[55:26] Speaker 1: Russia's use of an ICBM. You couldn't ask for a
[55:30] Speaker 1: bigger example of missile as a message. And ICBM is
[55:35] Speaker 1: theoretically is technically a missile which has a range of
[55:40] Speaker 1: tens of thousands of kilometers. You know, ten thousand kilometer
[55:43] Speaker 1: plus range is an ICBM. What the hell do you
[55:48] Speaker 1: need a ten thousand kilometer range missile for to hit Ukraine,
[55:51] Speaker 1: which is your neighbor, right? ICBMs are you are are
[55:55] Speaker 1: developed by the US, Russia, China to hit each each other,
[56:01] Speaker 1: to hit each other, right, or hit each other's bases
[56:03] Speaker 1: and other continents intercontinental ballistic missile not you know, India
[56:08] Speaker 1: doesn't need an intercontinental ballistic missile to hit Pakistan, et cetera.
[56:12] Speaker 2: Right.
[56:12] Speaker 1: So, by the way, India doesn't even have a ICBM
[56:15] Speaker 1: right now, We've got long range because because who do
[56:18] Speaker 1: we need to hit with an ICBM. The guys we
[56:21] Speaker 1: need to hit, we can hit with long range ballistic
[56:22] Speaker 1: missiles which we have right here, which are Pakistan in China. Right. So,
[56:26] Speaker 1: I think the ICBM that's been used without a nuclear warhead,
[56:30] Speaker 1: like you rightly said, was not at all to cause
[56:33] Speaker 1: any destruction in Ukraine. It was basically a message to
[56:36] Speaker 1: both Zelensky to NATO and especially the United States saying hey, hello,
[56:40] Speaker 1: I've got I've got ICBMs. I'm not using it with
[56:43] Speaker 1: a nuclear warhead, but I can because I've tweaked my
[56:46] Speaker 1: nuclear policy also, so it's a message. So we live
[56:50] Speaker 1: in a world where missiles are basically, you know, saying
[56:54] Speaker 1: something rather than doing something.
[56:55] Speaker 2: It's quite weird, you know how the two of us
[56:57] Speaker 2: managed to talk about ICBMs and destruction and nuclear war
[57:01] Speaker 2: warfare with a smile on our faces and after voices. Uh,
[57:05] Speaker 2: but that's our job and I think that's what that's
[57:08] Speaker 2: the reason our listeners and viewers keep coming to us,
[57:10] Speaker 2: and apart from the sort of banter we have at times,
[57:14] Speaker 2: we do obviously talks her stuff. And this episode once again,
[57:18] Speaker 2: like like always, was great, lots of fun up once again,
[57:21] Speaker 2: So thanks Shift as always, Thanks to our producer as
[57:24] Speaker 2: always as well, and our other money, and to all
[57:26] Speaker 2: our viewers and listeners who keep commenting and keep you know,
[57:29] Speaker 2: giving us ideas and keep leaving us great feedback, great
[57:32] Speaker 2: feedback chap. But they should literally go and watch our
[57:34] Speaker 2: watch our comments comments.
[57:35] Speaker 1: Yeah I do, I do often earlier.
[57:37] Speaker 2: So thanks to our listeners and viewers. That's it for
[57:40] Speaker 2: this week's defense goes for more, tune in next week.
[57:42] Speaker 2: Till then, stay safe and not toss any mood the
[57:44] Speaker 2: passport

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