# Ridiculous Crime Interviews: Matthew Campbell and The Man Who Stole the Gods, Part 2

An episode of [Ridiculous Crime](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1608230191), 13 Aug 2026, 1 h 00 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/0b4bcc39-7ba2-453f-aaac-ae510011dd80/13965542-7890-40a5-b99a-b4a4015994d7/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=3a4c50f5-ff69-4807-aa26-ae510011dd8e

For part two of this special edition, Zaron continues his interview with author Matthew Campbell about his book The Man Who Stole the Gods. In the second half of the interview, Matthew Campbell examines the other half of the art crime, the metaphorical detectives and police tasked with investigating and seeking justice for the Cambodian people. There's also discussion of redemption, righting of wrongs, and the role and responsibillities of museums and auction houses in this global tale of art crime. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Ridiculous crime. It's a production of iHeartRadio.
[0:03] Speaker 2: Elizabeth Dutton, Sarah Burnett. I've been looking for you high
[0:07] Speaker 2: and low and in the middle, and finally I find
[0:10] Speaker 2: you right here there. You are, right right where I'm
[0:12] Speaker 2: sposed to be.
[0:13] Speaker 3: I looked, yeah, exactly right.
[0:15] Speaker 2: So I got a question for you. Yes, sir, do
[0:17] Speaker 2: you know what's ridiculous?
[0:18] Speaker 3: I know it's ridiculous. Hot dogs? Okay, I got I
[0:22] Speaker 3: can't stop. But the hot dog it's all your faults.
[0:26] Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
[0:26] Speaker 3: I learned it from watching you.
[0:28] Speaker 2: Spread the gospel and usually deeply hot diggity dogs.
[0:31] Speaker 3: All right, So here's another thing that we've been bombarded with.
[0:35] Speaker 3: Oscar Meyer, home of the Wiener.
[0:38] Speaker 2: Say that with a smile, Elizabeth.
[0:39] Speaker 3: I'm not big into Oscar.
[0:43] Speaker 2: Really at all.
[0:44] Speaker 3: They they're celebrating ninety years. Oh yere's a hot dog.
[0:48] Speaker 2: Congrats, mister Meyer.
[0:49] Speaker 3: And to celebrate this, well, if you're ninety years old, well,
[0:53] Speaker 3: I don't think you can still lose. But during the
[0:55] Speaker 3: main summertime, if you're ninety, you could call like contact them,
[1:00] Speaker 3: call them up and be like.
[1:03] Speaker 2: Hello, Oscars.
[1:06] Speaker 3: They would send the wienermobile out to your house. Really
[1:10] Speaker 3: and Serhenaud you I suppose, I don't know, but yeah,
[1:13] Speaker 3: they would do.
[1:13] Speaker 2: It, already paid for it. If I'm ninety, I think.
[1:18] Speaker 3: So, ninety year old rude dudes. I'm sorry I didn't
[1:20] Speaker 3: get this to you faster, really, Elizabeth, my bad. But anyway,
[1:25] Speaker 3: for the rest of us, they have teamed up Oscar Meyer.
[1:29] Speaker 3: You know, anytime someone teams up with someone else.
[1:32] Speaker 2: I'm trying to not hear this go on.
[1:33] Speaker 3: They teamed up with milk Bar. Are you familiar with
[1:36] Speaker 3: milk Bar but bakery? They do cakes. They're really famous
[1:39] Speaker 3: for this. Yes, those cakes where they put they they're
[1:42] Speaker 3: kind of naked cakes. So they do the filling and
[1:45] Speaker 3: then they can see it put the plastic around the
[1:47] Speaker 3: outside so that it's Yeah, anyway, milk bar. Right, So
[1:51] Speaker 3: they they've come up with a hot dog cake and
[1:54] Speaker 3: it's a teared cake. Tears.
[1:58] Speaker 2: They should have stopped. They should stop.
[2:00] Speaker 3: I can't stop all stop. It's two tears of the
[2:04] Speaker 3: confetti cake and.
[2:06] Speaker 2: Then around cake confetti.
[2:09] Speaker 3: Yeah, around it kind of like a Charlotte cake where
[2:13] Speaker 3: it's got like lady fingers around the outside, hot dogs in.
[2:18] Speaker 3: But but here's the things there, and I want you
[2:20] Speaker 3: to calm down and really think this through. So white,
[2:25] Speaker 3: Ye mean neither, but why and so you can cut
[2:28] Speaker 3: it right and it's like you're at a at a.
[2:30] Speaker 2: Fun time separates from itself.
[2:32] Speaker 3: Yes, you're not supposed to eat them together. If pico
[2:39] Speaker 3: you can. And the decorative there's like ketchup and mustard sprinkles.
[2:44] Speaker 3: That's the confetti. Yeah, but it's not really.
[2:48] Speaker 2: Catch mustard, just like a hint of tomato.
[2:51] Speaker 3: Yeah, Oscar Meyer Wiener cake? Do people still call them Wieners?
[2:56] Speaker 2: I don't hear it much, not as much.
[2:57] Speaker 3: There's a dog place here in town that I wanted
[2:59] Speaker 3: to check out, and I'm just going to go there,
[3:01] Speaker 3: how much as a Wiener it's not it's not schnitzel. Yeah.
[3:06] Speaker 3: So anyway, uh wianer cakeous and I only had it
[3:11] Speaker 3: though it was only sorry, sorry to not let you
[3:14] Speaker 3: move on with your life. It was in Chicago, New
[3:17] Speaker 3: York and l A from Friday, July thirty first until Sunday,
[3:21] Speaker 3: August second, so.
[3:22] Speaker 2: A weekend, a weekend and weekend it was oh yeah, right,
[3:26] Speaker 2: wasn't I think that was doay? It wasn't on my calendar.
[3:29] Speaker 3: Like someone's last weekend. It has to do with Wiener.
[3:32] Speaker 2: Could you imagine like up checking Wiener and cake confetti cake?
[3:36] Speaker 3: Up checking is such a great eighties right, I'm trying
[3:39] Speaker 3: to keep it up checking Wiener cake. I can imagine that,
[3:44] Speaker 3: like you're outside, it's hot and you've had you've had
[3:49] Speaker 3: a lot of Hawaiian punch. Ok, so it all comes up.
[3:52] Speaker 2: Oh god, bloody looking. Yeah, you can stay in grass.
[3:56] Speaker 3: I'm so sorry.
[3:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry.
[3:57] Speaker 3: Anyway, So we went into the into the patented.
[4:01] Speaker 2: Dutton gross into a Dutton gross house.
[4:03] Speaker 3: I haven't dropped gross outs and quite some time, behavior
[4:07] Speaker 3: I have so and we had we had a review,
[4:09] Speaker 3: an Apple review complaining about my gross house.
[4:11] Speaker 2: We had interns complaining about your inn.
[4:14] Speaker 3: We had iHeart executives and I can't help it. And
[4:18] Speaker 3: but I've been so good, and you started it all
[4:22] Speaker 3: this hot Weaner business, you and your Weiener business. And
[4:26] Speaker 3: you're the one who said chuck and the heat and
[4:28] Speaker 3: it's very hot belongs.
[4:32] Speaker 2: Yes, Well that is ridiculous.
[4:34] Speaker 3: I know it is, and that's why I said it.
[4:36] Speaker 2: Now I have something that is well, it's not nearly
[4:39] Speaker 2: the same type of ridiculous, but I'll just put it
[4:41] Speaker 2: this way. Sometimes, like we wonder about like history, and
[4:43] Speaker 2: they oh, can that that thing that happened? Can that
[4:47] Speaker 2: be repaired? And it often doesn't feel like it. It
[4:48] Speaker 2: feels like it's a rappable time has moved on and
[4:50] Speaker 2: like things are going like when they're really going wrong,
[4:53] Speaker 2: like in the moment, right, war is dividing your family,
[4:56] Speaker 2: atrocity that they're mounting, and it's also seems un endless.
[4:59] Speaker 3: Right, the gyre is widening totally.
[5:01] Speaker 2: There's looting and theft and betrayal. These are the norms
[5:04] Speaker 2: of the day. Right, It's war, Elizabeth, and it can
[5:07] Speaker 2: get you down. I mean, I don't mean to under
[5:09] Speaker 2: tell it, but war's kind of a downer and like
[5:13] Speaker 2: it makes you question humanity. Kill why you kill a buzz?
[5:19] Speaker 2: But I'm here to tell you we are a resilient
[5:21] Speaker 2: and hopeful.
[5:22] Speaker 3: Great War is a party foul.
[5:25] Speaker 2: We're prone to making tragic party fouls. Yeah, and yet
[5:28] Speaker 2: sometimes our mistakes they can be undone, which can feel
[5:31] Speaker 2: like a ridiculous possibility.
[5:32] Speaker 3: I laugh to keep from crying.
[5:34] Speaker 2: But I want you to continue to believe in it.
[5:36] Speaker 2: I think this next episode is proof positive to watch.
[5:40] Speaker 3: So we're going to keep up with the interview.
[5:42] Speaker 2: Yes, more from Matthew Campbell and his book The Man
[5:45] Speaker 2: Who Stole the Gods.
[5:46] Speaker 3: I love it.
[6:07] Speaker 2: This is Ridiculous Crime, a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers,
[6:12] Speaker 2: hest and cons. It's always ninety nine percent murder free
[6:18] Speaker 2: and one hundred percent ridiculous. Upchuck, you like.
[6:25] Speaker 3: That, You're gonna regress? You know, I like to drive
[6:31] Speaker 3: a bit into.
[6:32] Speaker 2: I can see you getting ready now this In the
[6:35] Speaker 2: last episode we met many of the key players from
[6:37] Speaker 2: this book. We also explored the Cambodian Civil War and
[6:40] Speaker 2: the Vietnam War era in America. And and also we
[6:43] Speaker 2: stole some statues and we deadly jungle.
[6:47] Speaker 3: I got mosquito bites totally.
[6:48] Speaker 2: We pulled off insane, frankly ridiculous crimes all the name
[6:52] Speaker 2: of culture and what outsize profits. That's right.
[6:55] Speaker 3: Always.
[6:56] Speaker 2: Now, let's see if we can undo what we've already done,
[6:59] Speaker 2: not us inarticular, but rather humanity or in this case,
[7:02] Speaker 2: can we mitigate some of the horrors that were done
[7:05] Speaker 2: to Southeast Asia. It's people's cultures and nations. Well, I'm
[7:09] Speaker 2: here to say yes, Elizabeth, Yes, yes, we can see
[7:11] Speaker 2: say pore ain't easy work and it takes remarkable people
[7:15] Speaker 2: with you know, like that tenacity, unending tenacity to seek
[7:18] Speaker 2: justice and make sure it is done. And now I'd
[7:21] Speaker 2: like you to meet the remaining key players. Folks committed
[7:24] Speaker 2: to justice, Folks who are doing the right thing, Elizabeth. Yeah,
[7:27] Speaker 2: only trouble is they do have differences of opinion about
[7:30] Speaker 2: how to do the right thing.
[7:32] Speaker 3: Well, you know that happens in rational discussion.
[7:35] Speaker 2: Right, one would hope. Now for more, let's get back
[7:37] Speaker 2: into our interview with author Matthew Campbell, author of the
[7:39] Speaker 2: book The Man who Stole the Gods. Time to meet
[7:42] Speaker 2: another one of my favorite characters. Another great character is
[7:46] Speaker 2: the lawyer Bradley Gordon, and he convinces or helps to
[7:50] Speaker 2: convince tolk Tik to come forward to help repair the
[7:52] Speaker 2: colossal damage done to Cambodia, some of which obviously he
[7:55] Speaker 2: personally committed. Gordon operates like kind of like the detective
[7:58] Speaker 2: in this mystery. What did you make of him and
[8:00] Speaker 2: his story as you're researching your book?
[8:02] Speaker 4: Brad is a really, really interesting and inspirational guy. There
[8:08] Speaker 4: are a lot of people who are annoyed by him,
[8:11] Speaker 4: but no one has a bad word to say about him.
[8:15] Speaker 4: He's an American lawyer. He actually went to Harvard, did
[8:18] Speaker 4: the kind of corporate law thing for a while, and
[8:21] Speaker 4: then ended up in Pompen, initially running a investment fund
[8:27] Speaker 4: that didn't work out, and then set himself up as
[8:30] Speaker 4: a lawyer and one of the tiny number of foreign
[8:32] Speaker 4: trained lawyers in Cambodia. He ultimately was hired first by
[8:38] Speaker 4: the US Department Justice and then by the Cambodian government
[8:41] Speaker 4: to investigate stolen artifacts. I'm always really interested in people
[8:46] Speaker 4: who go beyond their brief ye and you know, he
[8:49] Speaker 4: was initially hired to do a fairly discreet in the
[8:53] Speaker 4: sense of limited set of tasks, but he became obsessed
[8:58] Speaker 4: that he just couldn't put it down and he couldn't
[9:00] Speaker 4: stop going. And actually this book began life as a
[9:05] Speaker 4: magazine story for Bloomberg Business Week, But the very first
[9:10] Speaker 4: day I spent with Brad in panom Pen in twenty
[9:13] Speaker 4: twenty two, I said, this is a book, and to
[9:17] Speaker 4: some extent, it's a book about him, because you could
[9:20] Speaker 4: just see that he was on this epic journey, and
[9:24] Speaker 4: that was totally obvious. You know, even after spending a
[9:27] Speaker 4: few hours talking to him.
[9:29] Speaker 2: He's so driven and so committed, and also he has
[9:31] Speaker 2: such high minded ideals and then he ultimately seems to
[9:34] Speaker 2: live up to them. Spending time with him in your
[9:37] Speaker 2: interviewing him, and what was it like going over the
[9:39] Speaker 2: story from his perspective.
[9:41] Speaker 4: Well, what's interesting about his entry into the story is
[9:46] Speaker 4: it's actually quite late. You know, he's he's very central
[9:49] Speaker 4: to it, and the last third of the book really
[9:55] Speaker 4: follows him pretty closely. But he entered this picture only
[10:00] Speaker 4: in twenty twelve, and as I said earlier, the whole
[10:05] Speaker 4: tale begins in the mid fifties. So he comes to
[10:08] Speaker 4: it as someone who is investigating the past. He's coming
[10:13] Speaker 4: to this as a historical mystery, not as a participant
[10:17] Speaker 4: in the live process. And I think that is what
[10:21] Speaker 4: hooked him, the idea that there's this puzzle and the
[10:28] Speaker 4: pieces are out there and you can find them. And
[10:31] Speaker 4: you know, he went around interviewing witnesses, you know, trying
[10:36] Speaker 4: to find people who could provide useful information about what
[10:40] Speaker 4: was stolen where it might have gone, and he came
[10:43] Speaker 4: up empty. And he came up empty, and came up empty,
[10:45] Speaker 4: and a camp empty. And then he found them, you know,
[10:48] Speaker 4: and then he started to find them, and then he
[10:50] Speaker 4: realized that you can actually put these pieces together. You know,
[10:55] Speaker 4: this is a puzzle that, while it's monumentally difficult, you
[10:59] Speaker 4: can actually read instruct it. And I said to him once,
[11:03] Speaker 4: this is actually the worst possible situation if you ever
[11:06] Speaker 4: hope to be done with it, because it's a monumental task.
[11:10] Speaker 4: You know, it's the work of a lifetime, but it's
[11:13] Speaker 4: not hopeless. You know you can actually get it done.
[11:15] Speaker 4: It just takes forever. So you know, he's still at this.
[11:19] Speaker 4: He will be at this, I think until his last breath.
[11:24] Speaker 2: Did he talk to you about that, the challenge and
[11:27] Speaker 2: then the responsibility of realizing your life's work by almost
[11:30] Speaker 2: by mistake, You know, he comes into it and all
[11:32] Speaker 2: of a sudden, it's like he gets, you know, much
[11:34] Speaker 2: like Latchford obsessed about the statuary. But on the opposite side.
[11:38] Speaker 4: Yeah, I think heap probably by this point has a
[11:40] Speaker 4: fairly mystical view of it. You know that this is
[11:43] Speaker 4: just in some way what he was meant to do,
[11:47] Speaker 4: and he was kind of meant to do it. And
[11:48] Speaker 4: I did in the book try to draw that parallel.
[11:51] Speaker 4: You know that his obsession with tracking these pieces down
[11:57] Speaker 4: did mirror Latchford's obsession. And there are other parallels. You know,
[12:02] Speaker 4: they are both Westerners who chose to make their lives
[12:05] Speaker 4: in Southeast Asia. They both became fascinated in different ways
[12:09] Speaker 4: by the cultures of that part of the world. They
[12:13] Speaker 4: just had very different responses to it and went in
[12:16] Speaker 4: opposite directions as a result. You know, I think the
[12:19] Speaker 4: book is if it's about anything, it's about obsession. And
[12:23] Speaker 4: I would confess that when I started doing this, I
[12:29] Speaker 4: wasn't that interested in the objects. You know, I would
[12:33] Speaker 4: think of the objects as I would think of diamonds
[12:37] Speaker 4: or you know, Rembrandts or rare feathers. You know, the
[12:42] Speaker 4: objects are They're just a device. I was interested in
[12:46] Speaker 4: what the objects made people do. And you know, I
[12:50] Speaker 4: did ultimately become very interested in the objects because the
[12:52] Speaker 4: history is incredible and that they are amazing artworks. But
[12:56] Speaker 4: mostly I care about the effects these objects have on people,
[13:00] Speaker 4: the choices they force people to make, and what people
[13:02] Speaker 4: are willing to do to get them or get them back.
[13:06] Speaker 2: Do you, in the course of writing the book and
[13:08] Speaker 2: doing your research and speaking to people and looking at
[13:10] Speaker 2: all these images, did you start to have an affinity
[13:13] Speaker 2: as you just pointed out, that you started to like
[13:14] Speaker 2: the objects.
[13:16] Speaker 4: Do you have a favorite I do have a favorite piece. Yeah,
[13:19] Speaker 4: it's called it's called Shiva and Scanda. It currently lives
[13:24] Speaker 4: in Panompan in the National Museum. It's a sculpture of
[13:28] Speaker 4: Shiva and do God, you know, with his son Scanda
[13:32] Speaker 4: pictured as an infant, and it's a father and son
[13:35] Speaker 4: clasping each other's hands, and it's just it's very emotionally powerful.
[13:39] Speaker 4: You can see what it's trying to communicate, you know,
[13:41] Speaker 4: sort of love and fatherly attention, you know, for anyone
[13:45] Speaker 4: who's a parent. You look at it and you just
[13:47] Speaker 4: recognize it instantly. It also has an epic story. So
[13:52] Speaker 4: it was stolen bytok Tick later known as Lyon in
[13:57] Speaker 4: nineteen ninety seven. He helped smuggle it to the type
[14:01] Speaker 4: order and ultimately ended up with Douglas Latchford and actually
[14:06] Speaker 4: a twin piece very similar in size, perhaps carved by
[14:11] Speaker 4: the same hand. Latchford sold to a collector and it
[14:15] Speaker 4: ultimately ended up in Manhattan. So the modern story of
[14:18] Speaker 4: these things is just amazing.
[14:21] Speaker 2: Now. Brad Gordon's partner in this mystery is Jessica Feinstein,
[14:24] Speaker 2: the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York
[14:27] Speaker 2: who in this story. She operates kind of like the
[14:29] Speaker 2: cops from a noir film. She's the one who works
[14:31] Speaker 2: with the metaphorical detective Bradley Gordon to get justice. What
[14:35] Speaker 2: was she like to interview and how was it to
[14:36] Speaker 2: hear the story from her perspective?
[14:40] Speaker 4: So she's a fascinating person. Her story is remarkable. I
[14:46] Speaker 4: was actually at university with her, though never knew her.
[14:49] Speaker 4: We were a year apart. She is in some ways
[14:53] Speaker 4: typical of prosecutors in what's known as SDN Y, which
[14:58] Speaker 4: is the Department of Justice office responsible for Manhattan, and
[15:03] Speaker 4: it attracts these incredibly hard driving, hyper educated young lawyers.
[15:11] Speaker 4: You know, they all went to Yale or Harvard Law basically,
[15:14] Speaker 4: and they are people who could instantly walk three blocks,
[15:19] Speaker 4: you know, and get hired by Wilmer Hale or Sullivan
[15:21] Speaker 4: and Cromwell and ten x their salaries, but they don't,
[15:24] Speaker 4: you know, Instead they work criminal cases. So in some
[15:28] Speaker 4: ways she was very typical, you know, very driven, incredibly brilliant.
[15:33] Speaker 4: But she was also atypical in that she was kind
[15:35] Speaker 4: of a frustrated art historian. She had done a master's
[15:40] Speaker 4: in art history at Oxford, where, unbelievably she wrote a
[15:45] Speaker 4: lengthy paper about a novel called The Spoils of Pointing,
[15:51] Speaker 4: which is about a collector who's like destroyed by their
[15:53] Speaker 4: obsession with collecting. She tried to look for ways where
[15:58] Speaker 4: she could combine art history in law, didn't really find
[16:01] Speaker 4: any and ended up at Southern instead. So when this
[16:05] Speaker 4: case came along, she was very enthusiastic. And what she
[16:09] Speaker 4: did was take work that Brad had been doing and
[16:12] Speaker 4: continued to do, and put the weight of the US
[16:16] Speaker 4: government behind it. And well, Brad is an incredibly impressive
[16:21] Speaker 4: guy and has done the most remarkable investigative work on
[16:27] Speaker 4: this subject. You know, at the end of the day,
[16:30] Speaker 4: he would mostly just be an annoyance if not for
[16:33] Speaker 4: the fact that, you know, Jessica came in with the
[16:36] Speaker 4: full weight of the Department of Justice, and that in
[16:39] Speaker 4: a conversation with for example, the Metropolitan Museum is a
[16:43] Speaker 4: very different thing than just you know, getting angry letters
[16:47] Speaker 4: from a lawyer representing the Cambodian government.
[16:50] Speaker 2: You talk about a slight little friction between the two
[16:52] Speaker 2: of them over like revelations of the case to the
[16:55] Speaker 2: press and so forth. Yet there seemed to be the
[16:57] Speaker 2: kind of a mutual respect moving forward. Did they talk
[17:00] Speaker 2: to you about that. You know, from each of their perspectives.
[17:04] Speaker 4: Jessica and Brad were on the same side, but not
[17:09] Speaker 4: necessarily on the same team throughout this process. So going
[17:14] Speaker 4: back a little bit, Brad's first client was the dj
[17:18] Speaker 4: so he was hired by the DOJ actually before Jessica
[17:22] Speaker 4: was even there, to investigate aspects of these looting cases. Subsequently,
[17:29] Speaker 4: his client became the Cambodian government. So by the period
[17:35] Speaker 4: that the gets covered in the last quarter of the book,
[17:38] Speaker 4: you know, beginning around twenty twenty twenty twenty one, Brad
[17:42] Speaker 4: and Jessica have a common goal, which is tracking these
[17:46] Speaker 4: objects down, getting them back from wherever they are, but
[17:50] Speaker 4: not necessarily fully aligned interests. So they do argue at
[17:55] Speaker 4: certain points. You know, Brad leaks various things to the press,
[17:59] Speaker 4: which is a very helpful to things Jessica is trying
[18:01] Speaker 4: to do and keep quiet. They have an argument over
[18:04] Speaker 4: money at one point, you know. So at the end
[18:08] Speaker 4: of the day, they're rowing in the same direction, but
[18:11] Speaker 4: they have different clients and the interests of those clients
[18:14] Speaker 4: are not necessarily the same.
[18:17] Speaker 2: And did she express her respect for what Brad had done,
[18:19] Speaker 2: even though he may be annoying.
[18:20] Speaker 4: You know, they are hugely mutually respectful of each other.
[18:24] Speaker 4: I think it would be fair to say.
[18:26] Speaker 2: Now there's a large number of accomplices to this crime.
[18:29] Speaker 2: I won't get into all of them, but many of
[18:31] Speaker 2: whom are these fabulously wealthy lovers of art. I'm thinking
[18:34] Speaker 2: particularly of a Emma Bunker and Nancy Weener. What did
[18:37] Speaker 2: you make of them and their roles in this story?
[18:41] Speaker 4: You could tell this story and I hope this isn't
[18:43] Speaker 4: exactly what I did, and make it all about Lashford,
[18:48] Speaker 4: and lash Fork is incredibly important, but he's also a
[18:52] Speaker 4: point on a grid. You know, He's part of a network,
[18:54] Speaker 4: and it's a network that spans. As I try to
[18:58] Speaker 4: have the subtitles of the book read from the Killing
[19:01] Speaker 4: Fields to Fifth Avenue, I mean, that's literally it. It is people.
[19:06] Speaker 4: It is looters, you know, many of them Khmer Rouge
[19:08] Speaker 4: or ex Khmer Rouge in the field in Cambodia at
[19:10] Speaker 4: one end, and it is collectors and museum curators on
[19:14] Speaker 4: the Upper East Side of Manhattan at the other end.
[19:18] Speaker 4: You mentioned too, Nancy Wiener, who was an art dealer
[19:22] Speaker 4: in New York, and Emma Bunker, now deceased, who was
[19:25] Speaker 4: an American art historian who worked closely with Latchford. Really
[19:29] Speaker 4: really interesting people who came into this in different ways.
[19:34] Speaker 4: Nancy Wiener's mother was kind of the grand dame of
[19:38] Speaker 4: Asian art in New York City, and Nancy sort of
[19:41] Speaker 4: took over that mantle. Emma Bunker was from this blue
[19:45] Speaker 4: blooded Philadelphia family. Did a PhD in art history but
[19:49] Speaker 4: never finished. Instead, she had five children and never kind
[19:54] Speaker 4: of got the academic respect she wanted and ended up
[19:57] Speaker 4: pairing up with Lashford, and they were essential in different
[20:02] Speaker 4: ways to him, as other people were essential as well.
[20:07] Speaker 4: Nancy Weener ultimately pleaded guilty to some state charges she
[20:12] Speaker 4: did not do any time. Emma Bunker was never charged,
[20:17] Speaker 4: though she was certainly investigated. She died in twenty twenty one.
[20:22] Speaker 2: Do you have a moral judgment about them because the
[20:26] Speaker 2: fact that they were very cognizant of what they were doing,
[20:28] Speaker 2: because they were in intense helping him justify and to
[20:31] Speaker 2: hide and to provide fake provenance. Is there anything about
[20:35] Speaker 2: the fact that they were very aware as opposed to
[20:38] Speaker 2: say the looters who were doing something to survive. And
[20:41] Speaker 2: if you were to provide a moral judgment of the
[20:44] Speaker 2: participants in all these crimes.
[20:47] Speaker 4: So Tuck Tick later known as Lyon, was the master louter.
[20:52] Speaker 4: He was the guy he did a huge amount of
[20:54] Speaker 4: stealing and was responsible personally for the ransacking of many, many,
[21:02] Speaker 4: many historic sites in Cambodia. But I think his culpability
[21:08] Speaker 4: is lessened in two ways. One is that he made amends.
[21:11] Speaker 4: You know, he did the right thing. He spent the
[21:13] Speaker 4: final years of his life trying to undo this damage.
[21:17] Speaker 4: And two, who among us in his shoes could say
[21:22] Speaker 4: we wouldn't do the same thing. You know, he he
[21:25] Speaker 4: emerged from the Khmer rouge into a shattered society. You know,
[21:29] Speaker 4: Cambodia was a country without doctors, without electricity, without food.
[21:35] Speaker 4: I mean, it was lacking all of the basic rudiments
[21:37] Speaker 4: of life. You could be killed for any number of
[21:40] Speaker 4: one hundred reasons or no reasons at all, and any time.
[21:45] Speaker 4: And he found a way to prosper, you know, to
[21:48] Speaker 4: keep himself safe, to keep his family safe. And I
[21:52] Speaker 4: can't say I blame him. So I have a different
[21:56] Speaker 4: view of the comfortable professionals in the Western world who
[22:02] Speaker 4: knew or should have known better and enabled all this.
[22:05] Speaker 4: You know, I think that's a different.
[22:06] Speaker 2: Category Elizabeth, how fascinating are our detectives for this strange
[22:11] Speaker 2: art crime?
[22:11] Speaker 3: I you know, I love good art crime detection.
[22:15] Speaker 2: I don't love characters, right, And we put them together
[22:18] Speaker 2: talking about it to chocolate. Now, do you think they
[22:20] Speaker 2: can get the job done? Do you think they can
[22:23] Speaker 2: bring about justice or at least some semblance of it?
[22:25] Speaker 2: Sure will hold that thought, because after these messages, we'll
[22:28] Speaker 2: come back for more justice and more peace. Yes, back
[22:31] Speaker 2: in two and two and we're back, Elizabeth. Now, so
[22:54] Speaker 2: far we've met our metaphorical detectives and some of our
[22:57] Speaker 2: associate crimers, and we've heard about how the great art
[23:00] Speaker 2: was getting smuggled out of Cambodia and then getting transported
[23:03] Speaker 2: to those like hallowed halls of the Met Museum in
[23:06] Speaker 2: New York, where, of course you know, the fat cats
[23:08] Speaker 2: and swells. Can you know, use the artwork to steal
[23:11] Speaker 2: some cultural sophistication for themselves? Is their wont? Now? I
[23:15] Speaker 2: want you to meet two new key players we have
[23:17] Speaker 2: to count of, Elizabeth. One is the man who essentially
[23:21] Speaker 2: modernized the Met Museum and turned like things like exhibitions
[23:24] Speaker 2: and galas into the events that we know and many
[23:27] Speaker 2: of us love today. Really I think met Gala. Yeah, yeah, no. Also,
[23:31] Speaker 2: it's time to meet one of the so called victims
[23:33] Speaker 2: of their crimes. He's a fat cat tech billionaire and frankly,
[23:38] Speaker 2: he gets played. He gets cond to Elizabeth, he gets
[23:40] Speaker 2: taken for millions. So I think in some ways you
[23:42] Speaker 2: will enjoy this, Yeah, I will. Okay, Now get back
[23:45] Speaker 2: to author Matthew Campbell. Now the billionaire Jim Clark, the
[23:49] Speaker 2: co founder of Netscape. He plays another key role in
[23:52] Speaker 2: this story as well. Was he cooperative in terms of interviews,
[23:54] Speaker 2: and if so, what was he like and also has
[23:56] Speaker 2: he made peace with his role in this crime.
[24:00] Speaker 4: Clark was not especially cooperative.
[24:02] Speaker 2: He I'm surprised he was, and I actually.
[24:07] Speaker 4: Don't think his role in this is I think his
[24:11] Speaker 4: role in this is complicated. I really don't believe he
[24:14] Speaker 4: knew that he was buying stolen goods. I think he
[24:17] Speaker 4: was assured by Lashford this stuff was was fine.
[24:20] Speaker 2: Any bought it.
[24:21] Speaker 4: That's not the same thing as you know, knowingly participating
[24:24] Speaker 4: in this chain.
[24:26] Speaker 2: Clark.
[24:28] Speaker 4: I did try an interview him. I actually went to
[24:30] Speaker 4: Florida the only time in my life I've ever been
[24:32] Speaker 4: stood up for an interview, you know, for a meeting
[24:37] Speaker 4: which was scheduled and confirmed with Clark, which ultimately he
[24:40] Speaker 4: pulled the plug on and I left Florida empty handed.
[24:44] Speaker 4: So I guess he decided not to engage, but he
[24:48] Speaker 4: did the right thing. In the end. He was approached
[24:51] Speaker 4: by Jessica Feinstein, by someone from the Department of Homeland
[24:55] Speaker 4: Security also working these cases. You know, they presented him
[24:59] Speaker 4: with a lot of dents showing that he had purchased
[25:02] Speaker 4: stolen objects and he gave them back.
[25:05] Speaker 2: You kind of portray him as at least in terms
[25:07] Speaker 2: how Jessica Feinstein helps assuage his concerns about prosecution and
[25:10] Speaker 2: kind of massage his ego was pointing out that he
[25:12] Speaker 2: was a victim of Latchford.
[25:14] Speaker 4: Well and Clark as he was described to me as
[25:17] Speaker 4: someone who's all about the bottom line that you know,
[25:21] Speaker 4: he's always doing the math in any situation, and in
[25:24] Speaker 4: this case, he had spent thirty five million odd dollars
[25:28] Speaker 4: on these artworks from Latchford. He's then being shown evidence
[25:35] Speaker 4: by federal prosecutors. These are dirty, they're stolen. You know
[25:38] Speaker 4: you're going to have to do something about them. And
[25:42] Speaker 4: you could think in that situation, well, I can fight them,
[25:45] Speaker 4: which is going to cost some huge amount of money.
[25:48] Speaker 4: I might win, I might lose. You know, either way,
[25:50] Speaker 4: it's a reputational issue. If they're right, you have a
[25:55] Speaker 4: big problem. And they're also, by the way, worthless because
[25:59] Speaker 4: you can't sell if they are stolen, or there's a
[26:02] Speaker 4: lot of suspicion they're stolen. You can't bequeath them to
[26:04] Speaker 4: anyone because you're just bequeathing your child or relative with
[26:09] Speaker 4: a problem, you know, not some treasure. And he just
[26:12] Speaker 4: decided to cut his losses. So he did the economically
[26:15] Speaker 4: rational thing. Not everyone did.
[26:18] Speaker 2: Can we also discuss Thomas Hoving, the former museum director
[26:20] Speaker 2: of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. He's also
[26:23] Speaker 2: quite the character. Hoving, as you point out, as responsible
[26:25] Speaker 2: for popularizing and really advertising the museum and treating its
[26:29] Speaker 2: showpiece exhibits like events like most famously, there's promotion of
[26:32] Speaker 2: the King Tut exhibit. Hoving's approach kind of changes the
[26:35] Speaker 2: nature of how pretty much all museums now sell themselves
[26:38] Speaker 2: to the public. What were your impressions of Hoving and
[26:41] Speaker 2: what's your impression of how he revolutionized museum culture.
[26:45] Speaker 4: So Tom Hoving is this great New York character who
[26:50] Speaker 4: was incredibly well known during his life, but I think
[26:53] Speaker 4: it's largely forgotten now. So he became director of the
[26:56] Speaker 4: Met in nineteen sixty seven, when he would have been
[27:00] Speaker 4: I think thirty four years old, so incredibly young being
[27:06] Speaker 4: given the reins of arguably America's preeminent cultural institution. And
[27:13] Speaker 4: he was totally blue blooded. He'd literally grown up on
[27:16] Speaker 4: Sutton Place in Manhattan, but he had kind of a
[27:19] Speaker 4: democratic sensibility, and he understood that the sixties were going
[27:23] Speaker 4: on outside. And you know, meanwhile, the Met, as he
[27:27] Speaker 4: saw it, was kind of fusty and musty and old
[27:30] Speaker 4: fashioned and hopelessly out of touch. So he set about
[27:35] Speaker 4: modernizing it. And the way he modernized it was so
[27:41] Speaker 4: complete and so enduring that a lot of what we
[27:46] Speaker 4: would now associate not just with the Met, but actually
[27:49] Speaker 4: museums in general, came from him. So the idea of
[27:54] Speaker 4: corporate sponsorship of museum exhibitions, which feels like it must
[27:58] Speaker 4: be as old as time. No, he invented that. You know,
[28:02] Speaker 4: no one had done it before. He actually got the
[28:05] Speaker 4: Olivetti Corporation, the typewriter people, to sponsor a show of
[28:08] Speaker 4: work from Italy. The idea of the museum as kind
[28:13] Speaker 4: of a social hub, you know, with events and public
[28:17] Speaker 4: spaces and stuff going on. That was him. The Blockbuster exhibition,
[28:22] Speaker 4: that was him. So this whole ethos of the museum
[28:25] Speaker 4: as kind of a big attraction he largely came up with.
[28:31] Speaker 4: And at the core of that ethos, the center of
[28:35] Speaker 4: his vision of what a museum should be, was his
[28:38] Speaker 4: conviction that you need to have show stopping objects. You
[28:42] Speaker 4: need the physical stuff that people are going to line
[28:45] Speaker 4: up to see, like they line up to see the
[28:47] Speaker 4: Mona Lisa, you know, like they line up to see
[28:49] Speaker 4: Michelangelo's David. You need the Blockbusters. And that's what he
[28:54] Speaker 4: went out to try to get.
[28:56] Speaker 2: Obviously, I don't want to get you in any legal troubles.
[28:58] Speaker 2: So in general terms, what do you think of the
[29:00] Speaker 2: Met's role and responsibility in all of this story.
[29:03] Speaker 4: Well, I think first of all, one should note that
[29:08] Speaker 4: virtually everyone at the Met now came into a situation
[29:11] Speaker 4: that was not of their making. Yes, you know, these
[29:14] Speaker 4: are bad decisions that go back a very long way
[29:18] Speaker 4: in some cases, and they've been left with a mess.
[29:23] Speaker 4: You know, the Met has a long history of being
[29:27] Speaker 4: accused by other countries of harboring stolen works, you know,
[29:32] Speaker 4: of serving as a kind of treasure house for the
[29:34] Speaker 4: stolen heritage of other nations. It has a long history
[29:38] Speaker 4: of fighting those accusations and in some cases eventually caving
[29:42] Speaker 4: after a long period of time. I can see why
[29:45] Speaker 4: they fight them, because everyone is another step down the
[29:51] Speaker 4: slippery slope. You know, if you're in the museum business,
[29:55] Speaker 4: you definitely do not want to establish the principle that
[30:00] Speaker 4: you're harboring tons of stolen stuff. But in the case
[30:03] Speaker 4: of Cambodia, they did play very significant role in Latchford's operation.
[30:07] Speaker 4: You know, he was a big supplier to the MET
[30:10] Speaker 4: of what we now know were works with wildly illicit origins.
[30:17] Speaker 4: Not enough questions were asked. In some cases almost no
[30:20] Speaker 4: questions were asked, and Lachard was able to use the
[30:26] Speaker 4: branding of his association with the MET to build his business.
[30:29] Speaker 4: Because if you're trying to sell to American billionaires, what
[30:34] Speaker 4: better advertisement is there than to say, you know, well,
[30:37] Speaker 4: you can walk over to the MET, which for many
[30:40] Speaker 4: of these guys is only a few blocks away because
[30:42] Speaker 4: they all live, you know, in ten blocks in the
[30:45] Speaker 4: East seventies in Manhattan and see stuff that.
[30:50] Speaker 2: I put there.
[30:51] Speaker 4: You know, what a great way to show that you're
[30:53] Speaker 4: a bona fide dealer. So I think you know, the
[30:56] Speaker 4: MET has to some extent reckoned with this legacy. They
[30:59] Speaker 4: have each earn some objects. I expect in the fullness
[31:02] Speaker 4: of time they will have to return more. But the
[31:07] Speaker 4: MET is a complicated part of the story, and not
[31:09] Speaker 4: just with relation to Cambodia. I mean the allegations against
[31:12] Speaker 4: the MET have come from almost every corner of the world.
[31:15] Speaker 2: So again, also again I don't want to continue to
[31:18] Speaker 2: need legal trouble, so I'll say it over the time. Obviously,
[31:20] Speaker 2: the MET, this world famous museum. They seem to lose
[31:23] Speaker 2: sight of their mission to present, preserve and protect the
[31:26] Speaker 2: cultural history of the world. And credit is due to
[31:28] Speaker 2: the museum and instructors and their fight to be on
[31:31] Speaker 2: par with the other great museums of the world. And
[31:33] Speaker 2: they accomplish that goal. And then, like any kind of
[31:35] Speaker 2: like hold fast character, the museum and instructors don't want
[31:38] Speaker 2: to lose what they've gained and attained. And you spoke
[31:41] Speaker 2: to that earlier, which means they're worried about that slippery
[31:44] Speaker 2: slope that if they agree, then they'll start to lose everything.
[31:47] Speaker 2: And so they kind of feign innocence of their crimes that,
[31:50] Speaker 2: you know, the crimes that fill the wings with works
[31:52] Speaker 2: of art and cultural importance, which also kind of harkens back,
[31:55] Speaker 2: interestingly to Hansen's idea about diggle hole and bury the past.
[32:00] Speaker 2: Did you the note that a parallel in their desires
[32:03] Speaker 2: to like kind of forget the past and to be
[32:06] Speaker 2: able to move forward.
[32:07] Speaker 4: So I did some reading, which was a lot of fun, honestly,
[32:12] Speaker 4: about the history of the Met. And there's a great
[32:14] Speaker 4: book called Rogue's Gallery, which which does the whole thing
[32:17] Speaker 4: from the beginning, and it's just sort of a rollicking tale.
[32:21] Speaker 4: So I if I tell you to do like a
[32:23] Speaker 4: word association game about the MET, you would say, okay, Met,
[32:27] Speaker 4: British Museum, louve Ermitage, you know, maybe Smithsonian. Well one
[32:34] Speaker 4: of these things is not like the other.
[32:36] Speaker 2: Other.
[32:37] Speaker 4: One of these things is not like the others. I
[32:38] Speaker 4: should say. The MET is not a state institution, Okay,
[32:43] Speaker 4: it's a private institution.
[32:45] Speaker 2: You know.
[32:45] Speaker 4: It was set up by wealthy New Yorkers in the
[32:48] Speaker 4: nineteenth century who wanted, you know, their rising metropolis, and
[32:55] Speaker 4: of course the United States to have a museum equal
[32:59] Speaker 4: to the Great Museum of Europe. You know, they viewed
[33:01] Speaker 4: this as something you have to have in.
[33:04] Speaker 2: Order to.
[33:07] Speaker 4: Be you know, world class, if you want to use
[33:09] Speaker 4: it a very hackneyed term. You know, you got to
[33:11] Speaker 4: have a great museum, you got to have great art.
[33:13] Speaker 4: But they're not a state institution. They do not receive
[33:17] Speaker 4: the proceeds of you know, colonial adventures like the Louver
[33:21] Speaker 4: and the British Museum. Do they have to fill their
[33:24] Speaker 4: museum the American way, which is on the free market.
[33:28] Speaker 4: You know, they if they want.
[33:29] Speaker 2: Stuff, they have to buy it.
[33:32] Speaker 4: So the Meta is is very different, and it's also newer.
[33:36] Speaker 4: You know, it's much younger than these other institutions, so
[33:41] Speaker 4: as a result, it's misdeeds or alleged misdeeds are much fresher.
[33:47] Speaker 4: You know, the met collection was to a large extent
[33:49] Speaker 4: built after the Second War, whereas the Louver of the
[33:52] Speaker 4: British Museum, you know, the Armitage, their collections predate that era.
[33:58] Speaker 4: And you know, things can be forgotten a lot more
[34:00] Speaker 4: easily when they happened in the eighteenth or the early
[34:03] Speaker 4: nineteenth century. You know, when something happened in the seventies
[34:05] Speaker 4: or eighties, it's very different. So look, I think some
[34:09] Speaker 4: things the MET has done have been admirable. You know,
[34:10] Speaker 4: they've they've established this provenance research team, which is a
[34:13] Speaker 4: full time group who are looking into the origins of
[34:17] Speaker 4: objects in the collection. Of course, the Met is I
[34:20] Speaker 4: don't know how many million objects, So these people could
[34:24] Speaker 4: work their whole lives and they're only ever going to
[34:27] Speaker 4: cover a small part of it. You know, they have
[34:29] Speaker 4: returned a number of artworks in the last several years.
[34:32] Speaker 4: There's a new announcement pretty frequently, often because law enforcement
[34:37] Speaker 4: has come to them and said, you know, you better
[34:39] Speaker 4: give this up. So look, are they necessarily the worst
[34:43] Speaker 4: defender on these issues. No, but they're huge, and they're prominent,
[34:47] Speaker 4: and they're located in the world's most important city, so
[34:51] Speaker 4: you know, they get a lot of attention.
[34:53] Speaker 2: They also don't have the benefit of like a Napoleon
[34:55] Speaker 2: gave this to us kind of you can kind of
[34:58] Speaker 2: shift the blame to this much larger historic figure. Has
[35:02] Speaker 2: this book and story changed how you experienced a museum?
[35:05] Speaker 2: It has.
[35:06] Speaker 4: I'm a great lover of museums, you know, I'm not
[35:08] Speaker 4: one of these people who think museums are awful and
[35:12] Speaker 4: should all be emptied out. You know, I love going
[35:14] Speaker 4: to museums, but I do wonder every time I'm in
[35:20] Speaker 4: a museum. Now, okay, well, what's the story of how
[35:24] Speaker 4: that got here?
[35:26] Speaker 2: You know?
[35:26] Speaker 4: And everything in a museum has a little card, and
[35:30] Speaker 4: sometimes it's a bigger card, and the card almost always
[35:33] Speaker 4: tells you about the history of the painting or the object,
[35:37] Speaker 4: you know, or what the artist. If you're looking at
[35:39] Speaker 4: a renoar, like what Renoir was up to in the
[35:42] Speaker 4: year this was painted, it'll almost never tell you all
[35:46] Speaker 4: the steps between Renmore painting it and it being in
[35:50] Speaker 4: front of you here. And that's kind of an epic
[35:53] Speaker 4: in itself, because the story about history, it could be
[35:57] Speaker 4: a story about war. You know, a huge amount of
[36:00] Speaker 4: the major European paintings we can now go see in
[36:03] Speaker 4: museums were stolen by the Nazis, you know, and had
[36:06] Speaker 4: to be taken back or found. It could be a
[36:10] Speaker 4: story of looting. It could be a story about cultural
[36:13] Speaker 4: interest in different periods. You know, why do people become
[36:16] Speaker 4: interested in certain types of history when they do? And
[36:20] Speaker 4: so part of me wishes museums would engage more fully
[36:23] Speaker 4: with that, which I think would just be more interesting,
[36:27] Speaker 4: Like why shouldn't we know the history of the collection. Yeah,
[36:32] Speaker 4: and I think that would be a richer experience.
[36:36] Speaker 2: Yeah. I think they shouldn't be afraid to say Herman
[36:38] Speaker 2: Gowing once owned this, you know, because.
[36:40] Speaker 4: He stuffed it into a train. Yeah, as he did
[36:43] Speaker 4: with a lot of it.
[36:45] Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, the Met Museum Yeah yeah, Now like
[36:48] Speaker 2: maybe obviously world famous museums, it has been lately wrestling
[36:52] Speaker 2: with the we'll say, legacy of exploitation and their mission
[36:56] Speaker 2: to celebrate humanity and all of our many ways of being.
[37:00] Speaker 2: But my question for you, Elizabeth is does this story
[37:03] Speaker 2: change how you look at a museum like the men?
[37:05] Speaker 3: You know, I have a push pull with with museums
[37:09] Speaker 3: that I you know, I think that if there's sometimes
[37:13] Speaker 3: that's the only way that anyone is going to see
[37:16] Speaker 3: something in a specific area.
[37:17] Speaker 2: Completely agree. Certainly, you and I have gone to lots
[37:19] Speaker 2: of museums together, Oh yeah, together, and nobody I've watched
[37:24] Speaker 2: you in a museum. I know how much you walk
[37:26] Speaker 2: in you're reading the cards.
[37:28] Speaker 3: In a museum. But I think also think about when
[37:32] Speaker 3: you're a kid and you go to a museum and
[37:34] Speaker 3: how much it opens your world, at least if you're
[37:37] Speaker 3: nerdy like me on a field trip. I was in it,
[37:40] Speaker 3: you know, and there are things that I art pieces
[37:43] Speaker 3: I saw are historical things that I saw that kind
[37:45] Speaker 3: of shaped my interests in worldview going forward, right, So
[37:49] Speaker 3: that's a really valuable thing. But at the same time,
[37:51] Speaker 3: this notion of the looting and like you know, stealing
[37:54] Speaker 3: from another culture to put it out there, those belong
[37:58] Speaker 3: to those people. So you know, in terms of like
[38:01] Speaker 3: pieces of art where you can trace a provenance and
[38:04] Speaker 3: it's there legitimately, that's one thing.
[38:06] Speaker 2: But like purchased and you've.
[38:08] Speaker 3: Been to the British Museum, no doubt, it's sickening. You're
[38:12] Speaker 3: seeing these incredible monumental.
[38:14] Speaker 2: Works, stolen pieces from clear war and exploitations, yes, colonization yes,
[38:20] Speaker 2: And so I feel very we renamed this.
[38:23] Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel very lucky to have seen them because
[38:26] Speaker 3: I wouldn't I doubt I would be able to see
[38:28] Speaker 3: them where they originated from. And it's a luxury and
[38:32] Speaker 3: a pleasure to be able to go and look at
[38:34] Speaker 3: those things, but it's also you feel kind of dirty.
[38:38] Speaker 2: Interesting. I compare them to like museums. I compare them
[38:40] Speaker 2: to like zoos. You know, we both love animals, and
[38:43] Speaker 2: I love like you know exotic ones and me you
[38:45] Speaker 2: do two. But like I used to like really love
[38:47] Speaker 2: zoos as as a kid, Like if there was like
[38:48] Speaker 2: we're having zoo week for this summer, I was first
[38:51] Speaker 2: in line, right, and then I grew critical of them
[38:54] Speaker 2: when I became an adult, really a teenager, but really
[38:56] Speaker 2: as an adult, I started being like, I'm the one
[38:58] Speaker 2: buying the tickets. Should I going to the zoo? Questions
[39:01] Speaker 2: popping up? Right? Yeah, But these days, I think there
[39:03] Speaker 2: is a place for zoos because once again, it starts
[39:06] Speaker 2: childhood education and fascination. It connects adults to the natural world.
[39:10] Speaker 2: It has a lot of value. So it's really more
[39:12] Speaker 2: of a question is how they do what they do
[39:15] Speaker 2: and how they treat the living creatures with respect and dignity.
[39:18] Speaker 2: I think museums are kind of the same thing, Yeah,
[39:20] Speaker 2: how are you doing this right?
[39:21] Speaker 3: And then you know with zoos too, it's like it
[39:24] Speaker 3: does an elephant need to be in Cincinnati? You know
[39:28] Speaker 3: those kind of things. Or I used to as a kid,
[39:31] Speaker 3: I'd go, you know that, I like a really big
[39:34] Speaker 3: softy for animals writ large, and I would get really
[39:38] Speaker 3: sad seeing like big jungle cats on cement oh God, yes,
[39:42] Speaker 3: So that shouldn't be anything that's for any of those
[39:44] Speaker 3: animals on those cement parts of the enclosure. It's just
[39:48] Speaker 3: not part of the natural habitat the La Zoo.
[39:51] Speaker 2: Made Betty White go crazy, like just trying and getting
[39:53] Speaker 2: upset and like I'm going to shut you down because
[39:55] Speaker 2: she couldn't stomach how they were treating the elephants and
[39:57] Speaker 2: like various other animals.
[39:59] Speaker 3: It's really upset and so you know, for me, I
[40:02] Speaker 3: never really liked it, even as a kid. I do
[40:05] Speaker 3: know that there are really now more responsible zoos that
[40:09] Speaker 3: practice a lot of conservancy and so they're keeping you know,
[40:14] Speaker 3: animal species going and that sort of thing. But I still,
[40:17] Speaker 3: you know, my thing, Let wild be wild. This is
[40:20] Speaker 3: my big thing.
[40:21] Speaker 2: So well, for now, let's you and I take a break. Okay,
[40:24] Speaker 2: cooler a basis yea to these messages. I know, I
[40:27] Speaker 2: love that phrase. We'll get to the justice and redemption
[40:30] Speaker 2: yeast and we're Beck Elizabeth.
[40:53] Speaker 3: Hello.
[40:53] Speaker 2: Time for the final part of our conversation with author
[40:58] Speaker 2: Matthew Campbell. Now in this next action, and we focus
[41:01] Speaker 2: on justice and redemption and the human aspects of like this,
[41:04] Speaker 2: you know, this is truly global and like historic crime
[41:07] Speaker 2: story that is, yeah, he's telling, so let's just get
[41:10] Speaker 2: back to it. Huh okay, back to Matthew Campbell. Now
[41:14] Speaker 2: the auction houses, uh Southeby's and Christie's also don't come
[41:17] Speaker 2: out with very clean hands from this story. What do
[41:18] Speaker 2: you make of their history and all this looting and
[41:21] Speaker 2: fabulous wealth generated by selling the cultural history of you know,
[41:25] Speaker 2: frankly exploited nations and peoples.
[41:27] Speaker 4: So the role of auction houses is fascinating because auction
[41:32] Speaker 4: houses are, of course, you know, where a lot of
[41:36] Speaker 4: major art and artifacts get sold. Not all you know,
[41:39] Speaker 4: some things go through galleries, but auction housees are the
[41:41] Speaker 4: big ones. And you do not, as an auction house,
[41:44] Speaker 4: want to be in the business of selling stolen goods.
[41:47] Speaker 4: You know, you do not want to be in the
[41:49] Speaker 4: business of facilitating a transaction and then having the whole
[41:53] Speaker 4: thing unwound and embarrass your clients and you know, embarrass
[41:58] Speaker 4: you because that depart justice comes and sezes the object
[42:02] Speaker 4: like you do not want that.
[42:04] Speaker 2: You know.
[42:04] Speaker 4: That said, there have been many, many, many cases where
[42:08] Speaker 4: the big auction houses have not asked enough questions with
[42:13] Speaker 4: particularly works from places like Southeast Asia, from Africa where
[42:18] Speaker 4: the bar was lower for sure for a long time,
[42:22] Speaker 4: and you know, there was this episode in the eighties.
[42:24] Speaker 4: It's great in the sense that it's very interesting where
[42:27] Speaker 4: Sotheby's in London put up these works from Cambodia that,
[42:32] Speaker 4: as far as anyone knew, like we're in secure storage
[42:38] Speaker 4: inside the country and had not been seen since the
[42:41] Speaker 4: Khmara Rouge takeover. Well and at the time, you know,
[42:44] Speaker 4: Cambodia is in the worst phase of its civil war.
[42:46] Speaker 4: It's like, okay, well, how did these get here? And
[42:50] Speaker 4: they weren't very interested in the question of how they
[42:52] Speaker 4: got to London in that case. You know, art and
[42:55] Speaker 4: artifacts are still stolen all the time. Every time there's
[42:58] Speaker 4: a breakdown in civil order, you know, every time there's
[43:02] Speaker 4: a war, Sudan being the big current example, one of
[43:06] Speaker 4: the first things that happens is museums are cleaned out,
[43:11] Speaker 4: ancient sites are cleaned out, private collections are cleaned out.
[43:13] Speaker 4: So there is still a market, you can still move stuff,
[43:17] Speaker 4: and yet you have the auction houses and dealers, you know,
[43:20] Speaker 4: asking for all this paperwork on provedance. So there's a
[43:23] Speaker 4: disconnect here.
[43:25] Speaker 2: I don't want to ruin the ending of your book
[43:26] Speaker 2: or give away the whole strikes. I want people to
[43:28] Speaker 2: check it out to such a good book, but I
[43:30] Speaker 2: do want to ask in the end, did you think
[43:32] Speaker 2: that justice was done? Were you satisfied with how it
[43:34] Speaker 2: all played out?
[43:36] Speaker 4: I think it's a shame that Latchford was never put
[43:39] Speaker 4: on trial. He was indicted on federal fraud and conspiracy
[43:42] Speaker 4: charges in October twenty nineteen, when he was turning eighty eight.
[43:48] Speaker 4: It had taken a long time for various reasons. It's
[43:51] Speaker 4: not really anyone's fault for the DOJ to get the
[43:55] Speaker 4: charges together, and it was kind of too late. The
[43:59] Speaker 4: prospect of extraditing an eighty eight year old Transpacific, you know,
[44:04] Speaker 4: from Thailand, where by the way, he was a naturalized citizen,
[44:09] Speaker 4: that would always have been unlikely. Then COVID hit and
[44:12] Speaker 4: it became incredibly unlikely. And in fact, Latchford's health was
[44:18] Speaker 4: so poor that it's likely he never knew he'd been charged.
[44:23] Speaker 4: He was so far gone that you know, if he
[44:26] Speaker 4: knew about it, it was only in the vaguest possible terms.
[44:30] Speaker 4: So I think that is, you know, justice not done
[44:33] Speaker 4: in a way. But I think if you talked to
[44:36] Speaker 4: the investigators and the prosecutors. They would say there was
[44:39] Speaker 4: a kind of justice in getting this all on the record,
[44:44] Speaker 4: in marshaling the evidence, in making it public, you know,
[44:48] Speaker 4: which would absolutely not have happened otherwise. And getting back
[44:52] Speaker 4: the objects has been incredible. So there are now the
[44:55] Speaker 4: estimates keep changing, but it's certainly in the hundreds of
[44:59] Speaker 4: works that have been returned or in the process of
[45:02] Speaker 4: being returned to Cambodia. If you go to the National
[45:04] Speaker 4: Museum and put on pen it is now packed to
[45:08] Speaker 4: the gills. It's bursting with return to pieces and they're
[45:12] Speaker 4: gonna have to figure something out and they're trying to,
[45:14] Speaker 4: you know, either expand or build a new building. Gathered
[45:18] Speaker 4: up from all over the world. I mean, these pieces
[45:20] Speaker 4: were taken by the Khmer Rouge or people associated with
[45:23] Speaker 4: the Khmer Rouge, smuggled out of the country and stood
[45:27] Speaker 4: up like in living rooms in Palm Beach and Manhattan,
[45:31] Speaker 4: and it's just incredible to think about. And now they're back,
[45:35] Speaker 4: so it's an epic story.
[45:37] Speaker 2: Did you get a chance to see the Ganesha statue
[45:40] Speaker 2: in the pagoda that was built for it? Yes, So
[45:43] Speaker 2: that is.
[45:45] Speaker 4: Right when you walk into the National Museum and put
[45:47] Speaker 4: on pen, this huge ganesha is there. It was too
[45:51] Speaker 4: big to get through the doors, too heavy, So they've
[45:54] Speaker 4: set it up outside under a kind of canopy and
[45:57] Speaker 4: people are leaving offerings. They're leaving bottles of water or
[46:01] Speaker 4: incense or flowers. And that was a piece which had
[46:06] Speaker 4: been purchased by Jim Clark, the Netscape co founder, to
[46:11] Speaker 4: decorate an apartment in South Beach in Miami. But after
[46:17] Speaker 4: he bought it, Clark's decorator didn't like how it looked,
[46:20] Speaker 4: and it stayed in the crate.
[46:24] Speaker 2: Can you believe that, Elizabeth? I mean, come on, after
[46:26] Speaker 2: all that effort, all the dynamite, the jungle trek hefting
[46:30] Speaker 2: this huge object, the smuggling operation just to get it
[46:32] Speaker 2: out of the country, the smuggling operation to get it
[46:35] Speaker 2: into this country, then you got to come up with
[46:37] Speaker 2: the fictionalized provenans. The interior decorator takes one look at
[46:41] Speaker 2: it and is like, I don't like it. Leave the
[46:44] Speaker 2: elephant god or whatever in the createlievable.
[46:48] Speaker 3: Right.
[46:48] Speaker 2: I've read the book. That blew my mind. I had
[46:50] Speaker 2: to put the book down. I was like, are you
[46:52] Speaker 2: kidding me? The billionaires like, well, it makes sense to me.
[46:55] Speaker 2: I have no taste. So anyway, let's wrap up with
[46:59] Speaker 2: Matthew Campbell because he has a few key final thoughts,
[47:03] Speaker 2: one in particular that I love and feels so important
[47:06] Speaker 2: to this story. So back to Matthew Campbell, what is
[47:09] Speaker 2: next for you? Are you working on your next book?
[47:11] Speaker 2: Do you want to share anything about your next project
[47:13] Speaker 2: or your previous book?
[47:15] Speaker 4: Well, I could talk about my previous book, which is
[47:17] Speaker 4: Dead in the Water, which is the story of probably
[47:20] Speaker 4: the largest insurance fraud in history, involving an oil tanker
[47:25] Speaker 4: and a fake pirate attack, which I co wrote it
[47:28] Speaker 4: with my friend and colleague kitchellel So if listeners read
[47:32] Speaker 4: and enjoy The Man Is to All the Gods, I
[47:34] Speaker 4: think they will certainly read and enjoy Dead in the Water.
[47:37] Speaker 4: I am working on a couple of other ideas, one
[47:41] Speaker 4: of which is going to turn into a book, I
[47:43] Speaker 4: am sure. I would say the theme that I'm interested
[47:47] Speaker 4: in the most is how the past doesn't stay where
[47:51] Speaker 4: you put it, That things that happened a long time ago,
[47:57] Speaker 4: far far away, you know, with apologies to George Lucas,
[48:00] Speaker 4: really can redound across the oceans and across the decades
[48:05] Speaker 4: and still affect people in the here and now. So
[48:08] Speaker 4: that's that's the theme I'm interested in.
[48:10] Speaker 2: And one final question, You currently are living in Singapore. Yes,
[48:15] Speaker 2: that's right, and as an expatriot, an American, And I
[48:18] Speaker 2: don't mean I don't want to speak about the political aspects,
[48:21] Speaker 2: but just say, the cultural moment of America right now
[48:23] Speaker 2: currently going through a period of forgetting. What is it
[48:27] Speaker 2: like for you to watch this from afar?
[48:30] Speaker 4: Well, so I should clarify I'm actually not a US citizen,
[48:33] Speaker 4: though I play one on TV. I'm Canadian, but you know,
[48:38] Speaker 4: educated and spent a lot of my formative years in
[48:40] Speaker 4: the US. Okay, you know, I think the lack of
[48:44] Speaker 4: historical context is not unique to Americans. You know, perhaps
[48:51] Speaker 4: America is a country uniquely focused on the new and
[48:54] Speaker 4: the now and thus quicker to forget historical lessons than
[48:59] Speaker 4: I'll A friend of mine introduced me to a concept
[49:03] Speaker 4: I never heard of called Chesterton's fence, and the idea
[49:06] Speaker 4: is basically that before you take down a fence, you
[49:08] Speaker 4: should make sure you know why the fence was put
[49:10] Speaker 4: there in the first place.
[49:12] Speaker 2: Oh, I love that, you know, And.
[49:16] Speaker 4: This is what I think of, you know, NATO, or
[49:19] Speaker 4: the rules based International Order or the international trading system.
[49:24] Speaker 4: These were all created for a reason, and in a
[49:27] Speaker 4: lot of cases the reason was the horrors of the
[49:30] Speaker 4: Second World War, you know. So I certainly hope that
[49:34] Speaker 4: before they are dismantled, the people doing the dismantling have
[49:37] Speaker 4: a good heart think about why they were created in
[49:40] Speaker 4: the first place, you know. And we're seeing with Iran
[49:43] Speaker 4: and the Strait of Hormuz and now the Babel Mundeb that,
[49:46] Speaker 4: for example, there's a reason that freedom of navigation was
[49:50] Speaker 4: such an important concept and something that successive American governments
[49:54] Speaker 4: took extremely seriously, because the world gets pretty ugly when
[49:58] Speaker 4: you don't have it. I love talking with us cause
[50:00] Speaker 4: I think it's so interesting the question that I had
[50:05] Speaker 4: to find an answer to of when and why Westerners
[50:11] Speaker 4: and particularly Americans got interested in Southeast Asia, interested in Hinduism,
[50:15] Speaker 4: you know, so if you think of other parts of Asia,
[50:19] Speaker 4: you know, there's been kind of a fascination among a
[50:21] Speaker 4: certain kind of wealthy Americans with China and Japan going
[50:27] Speaker 4: way back, you know. So Henry Luce, you know, the
[50:29] Speaker 4: founder of Time magazine.
[50:30] Speaker 2: I think he was.
[50:31] Speaker 4: Born in China. His parents are missionaries the Chinese collections
[50:36] Speaker 4: at places like the met are very old interest in
[50:40] Speaker 4: South and Southeast Asia, you know, India, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam,
[50:45] Speaker 4: that is much newer. And if you put it in
[50:48] Speaker 4: terms of pop culture in the fifties, for example, the
[50:51] Speaker 4: only product that had anything to do with that part
[50:54] Speaker 4: of the world that had any reach was The King
[50:56] Speaker 4: and I, you know, both both the movie and the musical, right,
[50:58] Speaker 4: that was something people recogniz but apart from that zip
[51:03] Speaker 4: But then that changes, and the reason it changes is
[51:07] Speaker 4: a story about the sixties, as I eventually figured about.
[51:10] Speaker 4: So of course, you have the Vietnam War, you know,
[51:12] Speaker 4: which gets going mid sixties, and that draws a lot
[51:16] Speaker 4: of attention to that part of the world. But then
[51:19] Speaker 4: you have the idea of kind of mystical fascination you know,
[51:25] Speaker 4: with the quote unquote exotic cultures of you know, in
[51:29] Speaker 4: the India, of Thailand, Nepal, that you have the hippie trail,
[51:33] Speaker 4: you know, which gets going in the late sixties. You
[51:36] Speaker 4: have the Beatles, you know, going to meditate with the
[51:39] Speaker 4: Maharishi who then goes on tour with the Beach Boys.
[51:43] Speaker 4: You know, you have the founding of the Hari Krishna
[51:46] Speaker 4: movement in nineteen sixty seven, which is I always like
[51:48] Speaker 4: to point out was not created in you know, some
[51:52] Speaker 4: temple in the Himalayas, but was actually founded in Tompkin
[51:54] Speaker 4: Square Park in Manhattan. You know, you have the rise
[51:58] Speaker 4: of transcendental meditation. Like all of this is in the air,
[52:02] Speaker 4: and then, as culture always does, it bubbles up to
[52:05] Speaker 4: the wealthy and that creates this market that ultimately drives
[52:09] Speaker 4: interest in Southeast Asian and South Asian artworks.
[52:13] Speaker 2: Totally. They're like, how do we own a piece of this?
[52:15] Speaker 2: Not just how it transform us, but how do I
[52:16] Speaker 2: get my hands on it? Exactly?
[52:18] Speaker 4: Yeah, and without that you don't have the big collectors
[52:22] Speaker 4: willing to pay millions of dollars for these objects.
[52:25] Speaker 2: So there you go, Elizabeth. Wasn't that an incredible story,
[52:30] Speaker 2: Like not fun world, but like, you know, compelling, captivating
[52:32] Speaker 2: world to spend time in.
[52:33] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[52:34] Speaker 2: I so love speaking with Matthew Campbell, And if you
[52:36] Speaker 2: enjoyed this interview, I strongly recommend you check out his book,
[52:40] Speaker 2: The Man who Stole the Gods. This isn't like an advertisement,
[52:42] Speaker 2: not getting paid for it, there was no deal done.
[52:44] Speaker 2: I just really liked the book.
[52:45] Speaker 3: And I'm all in, this is totally piqued my interest
[52:50] Speaker 3: in fact, when we went to the last ad break,
[52:52] Speaker 3: I went and got it on audible because I had
[52:54] Speaker 3: a credit.
[52:54] Speaker 2: Oh there you go, Well.
[52:55] Speaker 3: This is my regular monthly credit.
[52:57] Speaker 2: You have something to look forward to because it's so
[52:58] Speaker 2: so much more than we could barely scratch the surface
[53:01] Speaker 2: of over these two episodes. What's in the book. It's
[53:03] Speaker 2: great also, I love in the interview this is something
[53:07] Speaker 2: that comes up. I'd never heard of Chesterton's fat and
[53:10] Speaker 2: I love it. Isn't that a fantastic context?
[53:12] Speaker 3: It really is.
[53:13] Speaker 2: It's like test this ethical measure of like you know,
[53:16] Speaker 2: it's also like it's a great way to consider and
[53:18] Speaker 2: reconsider importantly any major action you're about to take. Ye
[53:22] Speaker 2: apply Chesterton's fact completely. Like I'm definitely adding that one
[53:26] Speaker 2: to my tool kit. So with that, now I must
[53:29] Speaker 2: ask you, Elizabeth, what's are ridiculous takeaway here?
[53:33] Speaker 3: I you know, when you're saying that there's so much more,
[53:35] Speaker 3: we're just scratching the surface and I can't wait to
[53:37] Speaker 3: dig in and one in my case here all of this,
[53:42] Speaker 3: but I think that's something that we have to always
[53:45] Speaker 3: keep in mind with the crimes and such that we
[53:48] Speaker 3: talk about is there's always so much more intricacy behind it,
[53:52] Speaker 3: some of which we can't don't have access to in
[53:54] Speaker 3: terms of you know, public.
[53:56] Speaker 2: Record story context.
[53:57] Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So it having this laid out and teased
[54:02] Speaker 3: almost so that I've learned so much in these two
[54:05] Speaker 3: episodes and I'm fascinated by this and it's got me
[54:08] Speaker 3: thinking about a lot of things and then being able
[54:12] Speaker 3: to read it in the book in the Sky. I mean,
[54:13] Speaker 3: he just way he explains things and it's incredible, but
[54:18] Speaker 3: it implies beyond the show, right, so that we think
[54:22] Speaker 3: we know a lot of stories, just based like how
[54:24] Speaker 3: he talked about how he found the story. You know, Oh,
[54:27] Speaker 3: I saw this headline and then I dug around, which
[54:29] Speaker 3: is like how my favorite people operate exactly.
[54:31] Speaker 2: I found a wrinkle to the.
[54:34] Speaker 3: And they followed these threads. Well you could do that
[54:36] Speaker 3: with absolutely everything. It doesn't have to be a crime story.
[54:39] Speaker 3: And that's just a good reminder in our lives to think,
[54:42] Speaker 3: like we we don't know, stay curious. Yeah, well stay curious.
[54:46] Speaker 3: There's what we know on the surface, and then everything
[54:48] Speaker 3: is far more complex than than we get. But yeah,
[54:52] Speaker 3: always follow those threads.
[54:53] Speaker 2: That's my takeaway, especially when it just peaked you and
[54:56] Speaker 2: just tickles you a bed. You never know what you'll even.
[54:58] Speaker 3: If you're not doing it for like public consumption.
[55:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I mean. Just we have we have.
[55:02] Speaker 3: In our pockets, like the world's information on our phones,
[55:06] Speaker 3: so if you see something or hear something, you could
[55:08] Speaker 3: follow the threat.
[55:09] Speaker 2: All right, I'll be watching like anything, even like like
[55:12] Speaker 2: reality TV, and all of a sudden, I'm looking stuff
[55:14] Speaker 2: up because somebody mentioned something I've never heard of, and
[55:15] Speaker 2: I'm likely look at that.
[55:17] Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm all day.
[55:19] Speaker 2: Don't you don't even watch that much reality TV? Mostly
[55:20] Speaker 2: it's when I see you.
[55:22] Speaker 3: So I don't watch it.
[55:23] Speaker 2: No, not you. I was talking to the interns. I
[55:26] Speaker 2: was pointing past you.
[55:27] Speaker 3: I mean, I've confessed watching TV, but I do have one.
[55:32] Speaker 3: What's your ridiculous takeaway?
[55:33] Speaker 2: Mine? Thank you for asking. Elizabeth is like, I don't
[55:38] Speaker 2: know how to best put it, but I'm really tickled
[55:41] Speaker 2: by the billionaire who gets the like, you know, uh,
[55:44] Speaker 2: interior decorator and then they've spent like millions, like you know,
[55:48] Speaker 2: tens of millions on some art and then the interior
[55:51] Speaker 2: decorator looks at it and it's like I don't like
[55:53] Speaker 2: that we're not digging that. So I thought that.
[55:56] Speaker 3: Was just like ostentatious wealth like that. Yes, Whereas like
[56:01] Speaker 3: you know, I knew someone who had a neighbor who
[56:03] Speaker 3: ordered these huge, gorgeous doors for their house. Hmmm, that
[56:07] Speaker 3: they were like building and they arrived and they had
[56:10] Speaker 3: to be shipped in from I don't know where they'd
[56:12] Speaker 3: been stolen from, like you know, some like antique thing,
[56:15] Speaker 3: and they're like, mmmm, now that I see them in place,
[56:18] Speaker 3: I really like it.
[56:21] Speaker 2: They're not giving doors you just got you got.
[56:23] Speaker 3: Too much money. It's that. Don't get me started on
[56:26] Speaker 3: wealth's disparity. I could just keep going.
[56:28] Speaker 2: So anyway, you well, how about a talkback. You can
[56:34] Speaker 2: move one of them, we can watch this down what
[56:37] Speaker 2: you got much? I went.
[56:51] Speaker 5: So, I've noticed that you talk a lot about criminals
[56:54] Speaker 5: nicknames and how they get them. I just want you
[56:57] Speaker 5: to note that I teach middle school, and I've given
[57:00] Speaker 5: a lot of kids their nicknames that stick for life.
[57:03] Speaker 5: My favorite so far is that I convinced a group
[57:07] Speaker 5: of middle schoolers that Bill.
[57:08] Speaker 3: Is a nickname for Zachary.
[57:10] Speaker 5: And it's been about five years and everyone still calls
[57:13] Speaker 5: him Bill. So did I set up a guy for
[57:16] Speaker 5: crime for the rest of his life.
[57:18] Speaker 2: Who knows? Who cares?
[57:20] Speaker 3: Per're my hero, You're my absolute heros.
[57:23] Speaker 2: You could see the smile on her face.
[57:25] Speaker 3: I just it's incredible. I love chaos, Yes I know,
[57:28] Speaker 3: but that's just hilarious. Oh man, you know what, and
[57:31] Speaker 3: I'm with you. Who knows? Who cares? You're putting your
[57:35] Speaker 3: mark on the World's.
[57:37] Speaker 2: The ones that that stick so good, But it was
[57:42] Speaker 2: usually it's like family, you know. They just sound like
[57:44] Speaker 2: they're doing it responsibly, So.
[57:45] Speaker 3: Why not jump in the game exactly well.
[57:48] Speaker 2: As always, you can find us online a Ridiculous Crime
[57:50] Speaker 2: on Instagram. He looks pictures from this episode and other
[57:53] Speaker 2: episodes and then blue Sky if you want to follow along,
[57:56] Speaker 2: and we have our account ridiculous crime dot com. It's
[57:59] Speaker 2: a site where we got merch and all sorts of
[58:01] Speaker 2: artwork and stuff for you. Obviously, we love you talkback,
[58:04] Speaker 2: so please go to the iHeart app, download it, leave
[58:06] Speaker 2: a talk back and maybe you'll hear your voice here.
[58:09] Speaker 2: We'd love to hear it here, or you can email
[58:11] Speaker 2: us at ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com and if
[58:13] Speaker 2: you do, please start it. Hey, Terry, Hey Tabby, thank
[58:18] Speaker 2: you for listening. We will catch you next Crime Bye.
[58:27] Speaker 2: Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaron Burnette,
[58:30] Speaker 2: produced and edited by our favorite interior decorator to the stars,
[58:34] Speaker 2: mister Dave Coustin. Our ridiculous assistant is the world's greatest
[58:38] Speaker 2: fence builder who never tears down anything that doesn't need
[58:41] Speaker 2: to go, Terry Maldonatto. Fall Research is by the unequaled
[58:45] Speaker 2: master of the facts and figures who'd never leave a
[58:47] Speaker 2: priceless statue in a crate, Marissa Brown. Our theme song
[58:51] Speaker 2: is by our favorite Vietnam era pop music cover band,
[58:55] Speaker 2: Marty Scorsese and The Rolling Stones who Gather No Moss
[58:58] Speaker 2: aka Thomas Lee and Travis Done. The host wardrobe provided
[59:01] Speaker 2: by Botany five hundred producer Dave's wardrobe provided by Mister
[59:05] Speaker 2: Guy of Beverly Hills. Guest hair and makeup by Sparkle
[59:08] Speaker 2: Shot and mister Andre and executive producers are our two
[59:13] Speaker 2: plus ones for this year's met Gala, Ben Bolden and
[59:16] Speaker 2: Noel Brown Cime Say It One More Time, Geek Cry.
[59:29] Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more podcasts
[59:32] Speaker 1: from my heart Radio. Visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts,
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