# Gold Dust Woman: Marie Suize Pantalon

An episode of [Ridiculous Crime](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1608230191), 8 Oct 2026, 55 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/0b4bcc39-7ba2-453f-aaac-ae510011dd80/0ee235cd-78e7-419b-8299-b4dc0151df20/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=3a4c50f5-ff69-4807-aa26-ae510011dd8e

Marie Suize made her way from France to the foothills of California for the Gold Rush. One of just a few women up there mining for gold, she managed to make a fortune and gain the respect of her fellow prospectors. In an effort to be practical and comfortable, she started wearing pants. But that just wasn't done. Well, tell that to Marie. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.
[0:03] Speaker 2: Zarin, if that is your real name.
[0:06] Speaker 3: It may be.
[0:08] Speaker 2: How are you?
[0:09] Speaker 3: I'm allegedly doing really well. And how are you doing?
[0:13] Speaker 2: I'm well. I'm well, good, sir.
[0:15] Speaker 3: Oh, good. Is that the word on the street or
[0:17] Speaker 3: are you just telling me the tales?
[0:18] Speaker 2: No, I'm just, I'm doing my best impression thereof.
[0:21] Speaker 3: Yeah, okay.
[0:22] Speaker 2: You know what's ridiculous?
[0:23] Speaker 3: I do. So the BBC had this story, so... It
[0:28] Speaker 3: seems to me to be quite, you know, verifiable and correct.
[0:32] Speaker 3: There was a story from the UK of this guy
[0:36] Speaker 3: who stole his partner's car and drove 150 miles or
[0:40] Speaker 3: 240 kilometers for people who go by kilometers at night.
[0:44] Speaker 3: And he was drunk and he that which was bad. Terrible.
[0:49] Speaker 3: What made it worse was he was blind.
[0:53] Speaker 2: Oh, no.
[0:54] Speaker 3: Zarin, no. Yes. Anthony, not Michael Hall, 50 years old,
[0:58] Speaker 3: who does not have a driver's license because he technically
[1:01] Speaker 3: is visually impaired, drove on the M6 for 150 miles
[1:06] Speaker 3: at night, swerving around the road because he could not see.
[1:11] Speaker 3: And it's not technically. He's, like, legally blind.
[1:14] Speaker 2: Sure.
[1:15] Speaker 3: When he went to court, he had the cane. Okay.
[1:17] Speaker 3: He had, like, the whole— the glasses, the cane, the whole
[1:19] Speaker 3: bit in the photos. So he's technically— Rather blind.
[1:22] Speaker 2: So maybe he can see, like, light. He can see light.
[1:25] Speaker 3: He can just see, like, enough light that he was
[1:27] Speaker 3: following trucks. But he couldn't see the road, couldn't see
[1:31] Speaker 3: anything other than just.
[1:32] Speaker 2: Like— And this is the first time driving a car,
[1:34] Speaker 2: I hope.
[1:35] Speaker 3: Hopefully, or at least, you know, since he's lost his vision,
[1:38] Speaker 3: if he wasn't born this way.
[1:39] Speaker 2: It wasn't in the news stories that I saw.
[1:40] Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah, that's a good point. But, uh, yeah,
[1:42] Speaker 3: so he drove 150 miles blind drunk, literally.
[1:47] Speaker 2: Blind and drunk.
[1:48] Speaker 3: Yes. Which I was like, dude, I had to say, I,
[1:52] Speaker 3: I respected the fact that this man, he basically broke
[1:55] Speaker 3: up with his partner. They, the two of them, he's
[1:57] Speaker 3: 50 years old. He, they, they've been drinking wine, like, uh, multiple, uh,
[2:02] Speaker 3: bottles of wine and, uh, He then stole his partner's car,
[2:09] Speaker 3: just took it. And he's like, I'm going home to Scotland.
[2:12] Speaker 3: And he drove north.
[2:13] Speaker 2: That's a Scotsman.
[2:14] Speaker 3: Which direction's north?
[2:16] Speaker 2: That's a Scotsman.
[2:17] Speaker 3: And I thought you'd appreciate that. I do. Because, you know.
[2:20] Speaker 3: And then the court apparently heard that he stopped for
[2:23] Speaker 3: fuel at one point.
[2:25] Speaker 4: What?
[2:25] Speaker 3: And the attendant came out and filled up his car.
[2:28] Speaker 3: I guess he'd taken the glasses off.
[2:29] Speaker 2: He's like, I can't really. Yeah, and then I'll let
[2:32] Speaker 2: you get out on the highway.
[2:32] Speaker 3: No one got injured, so there was that. And, oh, apparently,
[2:35] Speaker 3: I'm sorry, he lost his vision only two years ago.
[2:39] Speaker 2: Oh, so he had already known.
[2:41] Speaker 3: Yeah, he apparently may have known pretty well how to drive. Sure, sure.
[2:45] Speaker 3: And then he just, like, hoped it came back to
[2:46] Speaker 3: him and that there weren't. Oh, God.
[2:49] Speaker 2: Well, I'm just glad no one got hurt.
[2:51] Speaker 3: That's the kind of confidence. Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely. You know,
[2:54] Speaker 3: it could have been a disaster. But that's a ridiculous decision, right?
[2:57] Speaker 2: That is ridiculous.
[2:59] Speaker 3: I'm driving home. Yes. You can't see. It ain't going
[3:01] Speaker 3: to stop me.
[3:02] Speaker 2: I'm four bottles in.
[3:03] Speaker 3: I can see the back of a truck.
[3:04] Speaker 2: Marks and Spencer had a discount on wine. Oh, man.
[3:08] Speaker 3: 150 miles. Even I, my most stubborn and persistent and drunk,
[3:14] Speaker 3: would not be like, I can drive 150 miles with
[3:17] Speaker 3: just seeing headlights. Basically, imagine you're in the fog and
[3:20] Speaker 3: you can just barely see a truck in front of you.
[3:22] Speaker 2: That's crazy.
[3:23] Speaker 3: That's how we drove.
[3:24] Speaker 2: That's crazy.
[3:24] Speaker 3: At highway speeds.
[3:25] Speaker 2: That's crazy.
[3:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, and ridiculous.
[3:27] Speaker 2: Did I say that's crazy? It's crazy and ridiculous. Do
[3:31] Speaker 2: you want to know what else is ridiculous?
[3:32] Speaker 3: Oh, please. I'm here for it.
[3:34] Speaker 2: Getting busted for pants.
[3:36] Speaker 3: What?
[3:37] Speaker 2: I know. What? This is Ridiculous Crime, a podcast about
[4:01] Speaker 2: absurd and outrageous capers, heists and cons. It's always 99
[4:07] Speaker 2: percent murder free and 100 percent.
[4:09] Speaker 4: Ridiculous.
[4:10] Speaker 3: Damn right you are.
[4:12] Speaker 2: Zabrin.
[4:13] Speaker 3: Yes, Elizabeth.
[4:14] Speaker 2: You know I love California history.
[4:16] Speaker 3: Yeah, you do.
[4:17] Speaker 2: Obnoxiously so.
[4:19] Speaker 3: Oh, yes.
[4:19] Speaker 2: Obnoxiously so. So before I dig into the incredible story
[4:23] Speaker 2: I have for you today, and it's super incredible, one
[4:26] Speaker 2: of my comfort stories, my emotional support story, I need
[4:31] Speaker 2: to do a bit of a recap.
[4:32] Speaker 3: Okay.
[4:33] Speaker 2: In, I believe... the Drake's Plate episode you did.
[4:36] Speaker 3: Yes.
[4:37] Speaker 2: You talked about E. clampus vitus, also known as the Clampers.
[4:41] Speaker 3: Yes, the group of historians or false historians. Yes.
[4:43] Speaker 2: I want to provide a bit of a recap for
[4:45] Speaker 2: those who haven't heard the old Drake's Plate episode, which
[4:48] Speaker 2: was a great one. Go check it out if you haven't.
[4:50] Speaker 2: Or those like me who can't remember anything.
[4:53] Speaker 3: Oh, it's a historical hoax. Good fun.
[4:54] Speaker 2: Yes. So E. Clampus Vitus, fraternal organization. They call themselves
[5:00] Speaker 2: the Clampers. Oh, yeah. And they present themselves as part
[5:04] Speaker 2: historical preservation society, part drinking club, part elaborate practical joke
[5:10] Speaker 2: on the very idea of fraternal orders.
[5:13] Speaker 3: Right. Aren't they a drinking society with a history problem?
[5:15] Speaker 2: Yes, that's what they say. So it's generally one of
[5:17] Speaker 2: the stranger and more entertaining threads in the history of
[5:21] Speaker 2: the American West.
[5:23] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[5:32] Speaker 2: During and after the gold rush.
[5:34] Speaker 3: So 1850s or so.
[5:36] Speaker 2: The exact origins are kind of murky and super disputed.
[5:39] Speaker 3: No.
[5:40] Speaker 2: That's in keeping with their spirit.
[5:42] Speaker 3: 100%.
[5:42] Speaker 2: And so the core joke of the Clampers from the
[5:45] Speaker 2: start was that they were mocking this like pompous, ritual
[5:50] Speaker 2: heavy fraternal organization thing that was.
[5:52] Speaker 3: Going on oh yeah and they come west.
[5:54] Speaker 2: Yeah Freemasons and Odd Fellows and such like that and
[5:58] Speaker 2: you know those were really popular and super self-serious at
[6:02] Speaker 2: the time even.
[6:03] Speaker 3: Like the Moose Lodges and like the lesser ones.
[6:05] Speaker 2: Yeah And so miners, many of whom couldn't afford or
[6:11] Speaker 2: didn't want the dues and then like the solemnity of
[6:14] Speaker 2: all these lodges, they invented their own.
[6:16] Speaker 3: I can make a Grand Poobah on my own.
[6:18] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[6:18] Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing. You have stuff like Grand Poobah.
[6:20] Speaker 2: They decided to like... mock this absurd in their views hierarchy,
[6:25] Speaker 2: the meaningless titles, the rituals that were supposed to haze
[6:30] Speaker 2: and amuse rather than uplift. So officers would hold in
[6:37] Speaker 2: clampers deliberately grandiose and nonsensical titles like Noble Grand Humbug
[6:45] Speaker 2: or Clerk of the Wallowing Herd or Roysterous Escobar. So initiations,
[6:52] Speaker 2: they did like practical jokes. They had humiliation rituals.
[6:56] Speaker 3: Oh, did they?
[6:57] Speaker 2: Yeah. Heavy drinking.
[6:58] Speaker 3: Yes. I knew about that.
[6:59] Speaker 2: And then like they would have these like fake secret
[7:01] Speaker 2: handshakes and oaths that they would take.
[7:05] Speaker 3: Fake secret handshakes is awesome.
[7:06] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[7:06] Speaker 2: And so their semi-official motto is Credo Kia Absurdum. I
[7:11] Speaker 2: believe it because it is absurd, which is something to
[7:14] Speaker 2: live by.
[7:15] Speaker 3: Totally. Do you imagine them doing like the secret handshake
[7:17] Speaker 3: where like they slide a finger in and touch your palm? Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle.
[7:22] Speaker 2: I once was telling someone a story about how I
[7:24] Speaker 2: got to shake Bill Clinton's hand.
[7:26] Speaker 3: Oh, look at you.
[7:27] Speaker 2: When he was president and he was coming through on
[7:30] Speaker 2: like a fundraising thing. And I, and I was saying,
[7:33] Speaker 2: like telling him dead serious, I shook their, and like,
[7:36] Speaker 2: I was like, and he, it was just like this.
[7:38] Speaker 2: And I had him shake my hand and I did
[7:40] Speaker 2: the like index finger tickling their palm and they got
[7:44] Speaker 2: all upset and thought he really did that to me.
[7:46] Speaker 3: They started telling people that.
[7:47] Speaker 2: Like, oh my God, what did you, I'm like, no, no, no.
[7:49] Speaker 2: It was a joke. It was a joke. It's like,
[7:50] Speaker 2: it's okay. You can tell me the truth, Elizabeth. I
[7:53] Speaker 2: love doing that to people.
[7:54] Speaker 3: It's the best. You've done it to me. That's why
[7:56] Speaker 3: I pulled it for you.
[7:56] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so good. So yeah, if you ever want
[7:58] Speaker 2: to freak someone out, tickle their palm while you go
[8:01] Speaker 2: to shake their hand. So the running gag with E.
[8:05] Speaker 2: clampus vitus is that they say they support widows and orphans,
[8:10] Speaker 2: but of their own kind. So it's not like a
[8:14] Speaker 2: genuine charity. It's like, I don't pay attention to my
[8:17] Speaker 2: wife and kids. The original organization, like it faded out
[8:21] Speaker 2: at the end of the 1800s. Like the mining boom ended.
[8:24] Speaker 2: A lot of the chapters dissolved.
[8:27] Speaker 3: Yeah. Didn't they claim like lineage back to like Bret Hart,
[8:30] Speaker 3: like Mark Twain era?
[8:31] Speaker 2: Yes. Like those like literary.
[8:34] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[8:34] Speaker 2: And then it came back in the 1930s in California,
[8:37] Speaker 2: mainly because like amateur historians and enthusiasts really loved how
[8:42] Speaker 2: irreverent they were.
[8:43] Speaker 3: Totally.
[8:44] Speaker 2: And they had this accidental role as the informal keepers
[8:48] Speaker 2: of gold rush era history.
[8:50] Speaker 3: Right. Okay.
[8:51] Speaker 2: Yeah. So today the clampers exist mainly in California, Nevada.
[8:56] Speaker 2: They do have other chapters outside of that. And the
[8:59] Speaker 2: modern clampers are known for their historical plaque placement. Right.
[9:03] Speaker 3: Right.
[9:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's probably their most visible public activity. So
[9:07] Speaker 2: the chapters research and install bronze historical markers at sites
[9:11] Speaker 2: of gold rush and Western history significance. So like old
[9:15] Speaker 2: mining camps, trails, forgotten town sites. They're like real genuine.
[9:20] Speaker 3: These are real historical facts.
[9:22] Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
[9:23] Speaker 3: But sometimes for like sillier things, right?
[9:25] Speaker 2: Sometimes they're sillier, but for the most part.
[9:27] Speaker 3: But it's a real thing that's silly.
[9:29] Speaker 2: Yes, and a lot of them, I'd say the bulk
[9:32] Speaker 2: of them are actually just like, This was the site
[9:35] Speaker 2: of this courthouse.
[9:36] Speaker 3: And this is where this bridge once was. Yeah.
[9:38] Speaker 2: And so they wear like mock Western or like mining
[9:42] Speaker 2: era garb in their events. They have these crazy get ups.
[9:45] Speaker 2: They drink like fish still.
[9:48] Speaker 3: Thirsty crowd.
[9:49] Speaker 2: So what makes them notable to historians is there's this
[9:54] Speaker 2: tension between the self-parody and then the actual historical value.
[9:59] Speaker 3: The work they do.
[9:59] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[10:00] Speaker 2: So they're able to get plaques installed where you normally
[10:03] Speaker 2: a private group wouldn't be able to because they do
[10:05] Speaker 2: have this value. And then that brings it back to me.
[10:10] Speaker 2: You know that Bette Midler line from Beaches, but enough
[10:13] Speaker 2: about me. Let's talk about you. What do you think
[10:15] Speaker 2: of me?
[10:15] Speaker 3: Yes, I do actually know that one.
[10:16] Speaker 2: One of my favorite things. My sister loved that movie.
[10:20] Speaker 2: If someone understands that line, I feel a little closer
[10:22] Speaker 2: to them. Anyway, me. I was recently up in the
[10:25] Speaker 2: gold country.
[10:26] Speaker 3: Oh, okay.
[10:26] Speaker 2: Foothills of Northern California, Amador County, specifically Jackson.
[10:31] Speaker 3: Oh, nice.
[10:31] Speaker 2: You know who's with me?
[10:33] Speaker 3: Johnny Cash. No, June Carter.
[10:35] Speaker 2: You.
[10:35] Speaker 3: Oh, right. We're going to Jackson.
[10:37] Speaker 2: I'm glad that it was so meaningful for you that
[10:39] Speaker 2: you were there with me.
[10:41] Speaker 3: I'm a thirsty crowd. I know you are.
[10:43] Speaker 2: So you and I went on an adventure.
[10:45] Speaker 3: Yes, we did.
[10:46] Speaker 2: In part to look for clamper plaques.
[10:48] Speaker 3: Yes, we did.
[10:49] Speaker 2: And to just go on a little road trip, you
[10:51] Speaker 2: were like, you have to sometimes leave the house.
[10:54] Speaker 3: Yes. I was like, I will drive. You need to
[10:56] Speaker 3: get out. Yeah. I want to go to the gold country.
[10:58] Speaker 2: You're like, this can be done in a day and back, like,
[11:01] Speaker 2: you know, day trip.
[11:03] Speaker 3: We do silly things.
[11:04] Speaker 2: There will not be like Instagram influencer types there.
[11:07] Speaker 3: No, not in Jackson.
[11:08] Speaker 2: No, no. So off we went. I was like, I
[11:12] Speaker 2: will put on hard pants. I'll actually leave the house. Yes, sir.
[11:16] Speaker 3: We did have a good time. We did.
[11:17] Speaker 2: We had a great time.
[11:18] Speaker 3: Good lunches.
[11:19] Speaker 2: We're in Jackson. We're poking around, searching for plaques. And, like,
[11:23] Speaker 2: I felt I needed to do a deep dive. And
[11:25] Speaker 2: in my online scrolling about Jackson while we stood on
[11:28] Speaker 2: the sidewalk in Jackson, I stumbled upon a name.
[11:32] Speaker 3: What did it name?
[11:32] Speaker 2: Marie Sweeze. And as soon as I started reading about her,
[11:36] Speaker 2: I kept her to myself.
[11:37] Speaker 3: I don't remember you mentioning, yeah.
[11:38] Speaker 2: I didn't say a word about her. She doesn't have
[11:41] Speaker 2: a clamper plaque, but she does have a grave site.
[11:44] Speaker 2: I didn't tell you about her because I wanted to
[11:47] Speaker 2: preserve her story for an episode.
[11:49] Speaker 3: So while I was window shopping at those weird antique stores,
[11:53] Speaker 3: you were like, I'm going to do some work.
[11:54] Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going to put this little precious
[11:56] Speaker 2: gal in my pocket. We didn't see her grave because
[12:00] Speaker 2: I didn't want to be like, we need to go
[12:01] Speaker 2: see this. I can't tell you why. Don't look at
[12:04] Speaker 2: the name.
[12:05] Speaker 3: Don't look. Close your eyes.
[12:07] Speaker 2: You wait in the car. So I have to go
[12:10] Speaker 2: up there some other time and check it out. Oh,
[12:12] Speaker 2: one more thing about the Clampers. And I do need
[12:15] Speaker 2: to note that like the old time fraternal orders, There's
[12:18] Speaker 2: an emphasis on the fratter part of it.
[12:20] Speaker 3: Oh, the brother, the Ben.
[12:21] Speaker 2: Men only. Men only. No gals allowed. So women are
[12:25] Speaker 2: what they call spectators at clamper events.
[12:27] Speaker 3: That's right.
[12:28] Speaker 2: Male only by tradition and rule.
[12:31] Speaker 3: When we went on that Emperor Norton walking tour of
[12:33] Speaker 3: San Francisco, he mentioned that.
[12:35] Speaker 2: He's a clamper, isn't he?
[12:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a clamper.
[12:37] Speaker 2: Again, I cannot recommend enough the Emperor Norton tour of
[12:40] Speaker 2: San Francisco.
[12:41] Speaker 3: Yes, the walking tour of San Francisco. An amazing history
[12:42] Speaker 3: of the city.
[12:43] Speaker 2: The guy's a genius.
[12:44] Speaker 3: Yes.
[12:44] Speaker 2: He's fantastic.
[12:45] Speaker 3: He's fully dressed up, stays in character. You walk around
[12:47] Speaker 3: and you see all of the downtown area, all the
[12:51] Speaker 3: history from Chinatown down to the financial district.
[12:53] Speaker 2: It's incredible. So yeah, if you're ever in San Francisco,
[12:56] Speaker 2: take the tour. All right, so men only. And that's
[13:00] Speaker 2: fitting when I'm telling you about Marie Suiz. She was
[13:04] Speaker 2: a woman in some men-only spaces.
[13:07] Speaker 3: Yeah, mining.
[13:07] Speaker 2: And so this is all going to connect. So let's
[13:10] Speaker 2: get going. Enough about me. Let's talk about Marie. So
[13:13] Speaker 2: Jean-Marie Suiz, she was born in July 1824 in the
[13:16] Speaker 2: Savoy region of France.
[13:16] Speaker 1: Ah.
[13:19] Speaker 2: So that's like Western Alps bumping against Italy. When she
[13:23] Speaker 2: was born, it was actually part of the kingdom of Sardinia. Oh. Yeah.
[13:27] Speaker 2: Because it was in 1860 that it and the county
[13:29] Speaker 2: of Nice became part of France. But Marie wasn't even
[13:32] Speaker 2: living there then.
[13:33] Speaker 3: Anyway.
[13:34] Speaker 2: Her dad.
[13:35] Speaker 3: So like when Italy unified, they're like, you're out, you're France.
[13:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. And there was like some back
[13:41] Speaker 2: and forth during the unification in that region. And I
[13:45] Speaker 2: think they wanted it.
[13:46] Speaker 3: I'm sure they did.
[13:46] Speaker 2: Because they're like, you guys are awesome.
[13:47] Speaker 3: They're like. Yeah.
[13:49] Speaker 2: So Marie's dad, he owned a tavern in Tome. And
[13:53] Speaker 2: do you know that that's the capital of local cheeses,
[13:56] Speaker 2: Reblechon and Chevrotin?
[13:58] Speaker 3: I think we both know the answer is no.
[14:00] Speaker 2: Now you do know?
[14:01] Speaker 1: No.
[14:01] Speaker 2: They're soft cheeses that you would not like at all.
[14:04] Speaker 3: This is why.
[14:04] Speaker 2: They're what you call b * * * *.
[14:06] Speaker 4: Jesus.
[14:08] Speaker 2: Me? I could go to town on him.
[14:10] Speaker 3: You? This cheese is not done.
[14:11] Speaker 2: No, it's not done.
[14:12] Speaker 3: Send this back to the cheese monger.
[14:15] Speaker 2: Harden it up. So Marie's mom, Adelaide, she had 17 kids.
[14:19] Speaker 3: Whoa.
[14:21] Speaker 4: 17.
[14:21] Speaker 3: Would you give the woman a break? Climb off of
[14:23] Speaker 3: her for Christ's sakes, man.
[14:26] Speaker 2: So Marie, she was the seventh child, the second daughter.
[14:30] Speaker 3: Uh-huh.
[14:30] Speaker 2: And like, it's a bit dark, but I would imagine
[14:32] Speaker 2: that at that time, many of the 17 didn't make
[14:35] Speaker 2: it out of early childhood.
[14:36] Speaker 3: Oh, I had not thought about that. You know what
[14:37] Speaker 3: I mean? I know you're 100% correct.
[14:38] Speaker 2: That's just how it was. I mean, still, she's sainted
[14:40] Speaker 2: because she gave birth 17 times. There wasn't a lot
[14:44] Speaker 2: of work or opportunity in Savoy then. So when she
[14:48] Speaker 2: was 22, she picked up and went to Paris. Very
[14:52] Speaker 2: common thing at the time. That's what some of my
[14:53] Speaker 2: kin did.
[14:54] Speaker 3: Nice.
[14:54] Speaker 2: But Paris wasn't much better. She was poor as a
[14:58] Speaker 2: church mouse. Poor as Job's turkey.
[15:00] Speaker 3: Oh.
[15:00] Speaker 2: Out at the elbows.
[15:01] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[15:02] Speaker 2: Like homeless, for real. She lived under the Pont Neuf Bridge.
[15:05] Speaker 3: Okay.
[15:06] Speaker 2: Luckily, a woman there took pity on her.
[15:08] Speaker 3: So she's eating like scraps of baguettes.
[15:10] Speaker 2: Oh, completely.
[15:11] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[15:11] Speaker 2: And she's just like moldy cheese.
[15:13] Speaker 3: Yeah. Not in a good way.
[15:14] Speaker 2: No, no, not the good stuff. A woman took pity
[15:19] Speaker 2: on her, gave her a place to crash and then
[15:21] Speaker 2: saw how smart and crafty and resilient she was. And
[15:24] Speaker 2: she's like, I can get you a job. So and
[15:26] Speaker 2: like Marie had been kind of taken advantage of and
[15:29] Speaker 2: she was just like, let's let's get you somewhere solid.
[15:33] Speaker 2: And so she got her a gig at a newspaper.
[15:35] Speaker 3: Yeah. What?
[15:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, just like working in the office.
[15:38] Speaker 4: Okay.
[15:38] Speaker 2: Marie loved it. And it was there that she saw
[15:43] Speaker 2: the ads that lured my ancestors and thousands of other
[15:46] Speaker 2: Frenchmen and women to the Golden State.
[15:49] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
[15:49] Speaker 2: France was doing its best to push them out and
[15:51] Speaker 2: it was working. So the ads, one of them read like, Oh,
[15:56] Speaker 2: you who traverse the great city in perpetually worn out boots.
[16:06] Speaker 2: This ad is amazing. It goes on.
[16:08] Speaker 3: Poetry.
[16:08] Speaker 2: Who scour the darkest, most overlooked corners of its countless
[16:12] Speaker 2: houses to find, through sheer toil, the black bread and
[16:17] Speaker 2: meager soup that see you through to the next day.
[16:23] Speaker 2: So off to the gold mines of California.
[16:26] Speaker 3: Okay.
[16:26] Speaker 2: So they're saying like, your life here is cruel.
[16:29] Speaker 3: Exactly.
[16:30] Speaker 2: Isn't this the worst?
[16:31] Speaker 3: Rats live better than you.
[16:32] Speaker 2: This is terrible.
[16:33] Speaker 3: Go to California.
[16:34] Speaker 2: They have gold there. And so Marie's like, sold.
[16:37] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[16:37] Speaker 2: You know, I was living under the bridge, black bread.
[16:40] Speaker 2: I heard that. And so she, 1850, like my folks,
[16:44] Speaker 2: she hopped on a ship in Le Havre and headed
[16:47] Speaker 2: to San Francisco. She had her brother with her on
[16:50] Speaker 2: that long five-month voyage.
[16:52] Speaker 3: Five-month voyage?
[16:53] Speaker 2: There were 2,000 people on the ship.
[16:55] Speaker 3: So they're going down around the tip of South America.
[16:57] Speaker 2: Down around and up. Yeah.
[16:58] Speaker 3: Yeah. The southern seas, man. Yeah.
[17:00] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[17:00] Speaker 3: 2,000 people on the ship. Only 8% were women. Ooh.
[17:07] Speaker 2: So Marie looked around and she made this realization. The
[17:10] Speaker 2: men on the ship, they're destined for adventure.
[17:13] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[17:13] Speaker 2: And the few women on the ship are destined to
[17:16] Speaker 2: work in situations not too dissimilar from what they left behind.
[17:19] Speaker 3: Okay.
[17:20] Speaker 2: So like laundress, cook, dishwasher, seamstress, prostitute. And those gigs, yeah,
[17:26] Speaker 2: they'd pay more in San Francisco, way more than they
[17:29] Speaker 2: would back in France.
[17:30] Speaker 3: They'd pay in gold dust.
[17:30] Speaker 2: But still, yeah.
[17:31] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[17:32] Speaker 2: So when she stepped off the boat in San Francisco,
[17:34] Speaker 2: she saw the masses of abandoned boats, like I told
[17:37] Speaker 2: you about in the Shanghai Kelly episode.
[17:39] Speaker 3: They just run them ashore and everyone hops off, the
[17:41] Speaker 3: sailors leave.
[17:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, crew, captain, they're like, I'm off.
[17:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, he just writes in the logbook, goodbye.
[17:46] Speaker 2: Goodbye. And so, you know, she and her brother, they
[17:49] Speaker 2: get there, but they don't stay in San Francisco long.
[17:52] Speaker 2: They stuck with other French folks and hopped on another boat.
[17:56] Speaker 3: Oh, right, because they only speak French.
[17:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, they only speak French. So they're just like, ooh,
[17:59] Speaker 2: you know, looking around and people are bumping into them.
[18:02] Speaker 2: And so everyone from the ship just like, boop, boop, boop, boop,
[18:05] Speaker 2: marches over. They get on a... Shipped, headed up the
[18:09] Speaker 2: Sacramento River to Stockton.
[18:12] Speaker 3: Okay.
[18:12] Speaker 2: And once they got there, they walked 50 miles to Jackson.
[18:16] Speaker 3: Of course, they couldn't afford a stagecoach or a horse
[18:18] Speaker 3: or anything.
[18:19] Speaker 2: No, they got nothing. They got nothing. Just start walking it.
[18:21] Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
[18:22] Speaker 2: And Jackson was this new outpost. It was a gold
[18:25] Speaker 2: rush town that sprung up like this tuft of mushrooms
[18:28] Speaker 2: after a foggy rain, you know? Perfect description. There was
[18:32] Speaker 2: golden MNAR hills and up it pops.
[18:33] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
[18:34] Speaker 2: So this pretty lady, curly locks afloat, walked into the
[18:38] Speaker 2: gold camp ready to seek her fortune. And the miners
[18:41] Speaker 2: there didn't see a compatriot. They saw a potential maid, cook, laundress, seamstress.
[18:46] Speaker 2: They're like, what are you going to come and do
[18:48] Speaker 2: for us?
[18:48] Speaker 3: How are you going to serve us?
[18:49] Speaker 2: Yeah. As Charlie Rosenberg wrote for Citizen Historian, quote, nope.
[18:54] Speaker 2: She and her brother formed a business partnership and staked
[18:56] Speaker 2: their own claim. She was going to mine gold herself.
[18:59] Speaker 3: I'm glad she has her brother with her.
[19:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, seriously. Seriously. And so it's there that she met
[19:03] Speaker 2: another French immigrant, André Doué. He came over in 1849.
[19:09] Speaker 2: Gold was discovered that January, so he must have hopped
[19:12] Speaker 2: to and gotten over there immediately. He set up two
[19:15] Speaker 2: placer mines, and placer mines are the ones that use
[19:18] Speaker 2: water and gravity. So like panning, rocker boxes, sluice boxes, dredging.
[19:24] Speaker 3: Running the water down.
[19:25] Speaker 2: Yeah. He had the Wildcat just outside of Jackson and
[19:29] Speaker 2: then the Montreal in Humbug City, one county over. Humbug City.
[19:35] Speaker 2: They made him filthy rich. He was living the dream,
[19:38] Speaker 2: sold in the ads back home.
[19:40] Speaker 3: Okay.
[19:40] Speaker 2: And he was taken with Marie, just like blown away
[19:43] Speaker 2: by her drive and her pluck. He admired how determined
[19:46] Speaker 2: she was and how quick thinking. So he invested. in her.
[19:50] Speaker 2: He loaned her money to buy a mining concession.
[19:53] Speaker 3: Okay.
[19:53] Speaker 2: And she would give him a piece of the profits.
[19:55] Speaker 3: Wow.
[19:56] Speaker 2: Let's stop here for some ads. Ones we didn't pick,
[19:59] Speaker 2: but that keep the lights on and we really love.
[20:02] Speaker 2: When we get back, Marie digs in.
[20:24] Speaker 3: Zarin. Elizabeth. All right.
[20:26] Speaker 2: So here's Marie Suiz. Come from across the oceans blue
[20:30] Speaker 2: to reach California in search of gold and fortunes. She
[20:34] Speaker 2: landed in lawless and boisterous San Francisco, made her way
[20:38] Speaker 2: up to the even more lawless and boisterous gold country.
[20:42] Speaker 2: And then now she's mining for gold under the patronage
[20:45] Speaker 2: of Andre Douay. But here's the thing. It's not easy
[20:49] Speaker 2: to mine for gold in the water and the gravel
[20:52] Speaker 2: while wearing a dress and petticoats.
[20:55] Speaker 3: I hadn't thought about that, but yeah.
[20:57] Speaker 2: She's stumbling. She's covered in mud.
[21:00] Speaker 3: You're ruining your dress.
[21:01] Speaker 2: Totally. She looks around at the lawlessness and the lack
[21:06] Speaker 2: of societal structure and thought, you know what?
[21:08] Speaker 3: Sod it.
[21:09] Speaker 2: She started wearing pants and boots.
[21:11] Speaker 3: Oh.
[21:12] Speaker 2: And a wide brimmed hat.
[21:13] Speaker 3: That's a big deal.
[21:14] Speaker 2: Like minor 49er chic. Like she's just in the outfit.
[21:16] Speaker 3: She's like, give me a pair of them Levi's. They're
[21:19] Speaker 3: brand new, right? They're brand new.
[21:20] Speaker 2: Look at this guy just invented them. According to the book,
[21:23] Speaker 2: Women's Voices from the Motherlode by Susan Buttrell. Quote, soon
[21:28] Speaker 2: Marie was mucking around in the gravel with pick and shovel,
[21:32] Speaker 2: along with the men dressed in the miners uniform of
[21:34] Speaker 2: canvas pants, muslin shirt, boots and a hat. As this
[21:38] Speaker 2: woman dressed as a man became known throughout the mining district,
[21:42] Speaker 2: few people knew her real name. She was Marie or
[21:45] Speaker 2: Madame Pantelon.
[21:47] Speaker 3: They called her Lady Pants.
[21:48] Speaker 2: They called her Mary Pants.
[21:50] Speaker 3: Hey, Lady Pants.
[21:51] Speaker 2: Hey, Mary Pants over there.
[21:52] Speaker 3: You met Mary Pants, huh?
[21:54] Speaker 2: She loved being called Marie Pantalone.
[21:56] Speaker 3: Really?
[21:57] Speaker 2: Loved being called Marie Pantalone.
[21:58] Speaker 3: It's got a good ring to it.
[21:59] Speaker 2: She started signing her name that way.
[22:01] Speaker 3: Ooh, I like it. She got a street name now.
[22:03] Speaker 2: Marie Pantalone. Oh, yeah. She did not give a toss
[22:05] Speaker 2: what people thought.
[22:06] Speaker 3: Doesn't seem like it.
[22:07] Speaker 2: She rejected something that Susan Boutriel called in the documentary
[22:12] Speaker 2: about Marie. There's this documentary called Marie Sui's pantalone itinerary
[22:17] Speaker 2: of a pioneer. She called it the cult of true
[22:20] Speaker 2: womanhood at the time. And that's to be pious, pure, domestic,
[22:26] Speaker 2: and submissive.
[22:27] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
[22:28] Speaker 2: And so Marie rejects the cult of true womanhood. She
[22:32] Speaker 2: smoked cigarettes. She drank. She carried a revolver. She navigated
[22:37] Speaker 2: the muddy streets of Jackson like a man.
[22:39] Speaker 3: Good on her.
[22:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, something she could get away with it in gold country.
[22:43] Speaker 2: And it also kept her safe. And so one of
[22:46] Speaker 2: the gold claims that she got from Andre.
[22:48] Speaker 3: She's like Calamity Jane, you know, like those types of
[22:50] Speaker 3: figures were like. She's not quite like in the male camp,
[22:53] Speaker 3: but she's separate entirely and no one's going to mess
[22:56] Speaker 3: with her because they're like, I don't know what's going on.
[22:58] Speaker 2: I don't know what that is.
[22:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like being crazy on the prison yard.
[23:01] Speaker 2: Well, and you can, like I said, you can get
[23:02] Speaker 2: away with it in the Old West.
[23:04] Speaker 3: And you're free. You're free.
[23:05] Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
[23:05] Speaker 3: All the rules, they haven't come from the East yet.
[23:08] Speaker 2: Not yet.
[23:08] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[23:08] Speaker 2: And so Andre, he had this claim near the Montreal dig,
[23:13] Speaker 2: near Humbug Hill.
[23:14] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
[23:16] Speaker 2: And it was just as rich as the Montreal mine,
[23:18] Speaker 2: or I guess I should say Montréal if they're French.
[23:21] Speaker 3: Please. You know I can't.
[23:23] Speaker 2: It was so rich and so plentiful that she really
[23:27] Speaker 2: didn't have to work this one. She would like chip
[23:29] Speaker 2: in time to time and like swing a pick or
[23:32] Speaker 2: like move through the tunnels. But she more oversaw operations.
[23:36] Speaker 3: Okay.
[23:36] Speaker 2: And she had like a big crew of men working
[23:38] Speaker 2: for her. And her name is at the top of
[23:41] Speaker 2: all the documents. She called the shots and they were
[23:44] Speaker 2: all okay with it.
[23:45] Speaker 3: She's like the forewoman of the crew. She's like, okay,
[23:48] Speaker 3: mine is loose box.
[23:49] Speaker 2: Unheard of.
[23:50] Speaker 3: Yeah, 100%.
[23:50] Speaker 2: There are no other women doing this. And, like, some
[23:53] Speaker 2: people tried to test her, though. I bet they did.
[23:56] Speaker 2: And her humbug hill site was next to a claim
[24:00] Speaker 2: owned by some Canadians. And one day they thought that
[24:03] Speaker 2: they could muscle in on Marie's claim because I guess
[24:06] Speaker 2: theirs wasn't producing the way hers was. Zarin, close your eyes.
[24:11] Speaker 3: Oh, hell yeah. My eyes are closed.
[24:12] Speaker 2: I want you to picture it. It's 1860. You are
[24:21] Speaker 2: working a gold claim for Marie Pantalone on Humbug Hill,
[24:25] Speaker 2: on the south fork of the McCullamy River. All day
[24:29] Speaker 2: you dig into a little cave, pulling nuggets of gold
[24:32] Speaker 2: straight from the ground like you'd seen in the ads
[24:34] Speaker 2: back in France. You work hard, but you make money.
[24:38] Speaker 2: Madame Pantalone, who some on the crew call Joan of Arc,
[24:42] Speaker 2: is fair. She works too, and she never tries to
[24:44] Speaker 2: cheat any of you. You woke up this morning and
[24:47] Speaker 2: heard something coming from the area beyond where your crew
[24:50] Speaker 2: was working. Not your guys, but still your claim. You
[24:54] Speaker 2: walk over and look and find Marie is already watching
[24:57] Speaker 2: them through the trees. Slowly, the rest of all your
[25:00] Speaker 2: French crew begins to amass next to you. You all
[25:03] Speaker 2: silently watch as the group of miners go in and
[25:06] Speaker 2: out of a cave. Try and pull some gold from
[25:08] Speaker 2: the land you're working. Marie's land. Canadians. The man next
[25:13] Speaker 2: to you mutters. You all grunt and nod in agreement.
[25:17] Speaker 2: Leave the Canadians. You raise your pick. The men around
[25:21] Speaker 2: you raise their tools. Picks, shovels, iron bars, all at
[25:24] Speaker 2: the ready. You're ready to make your move. No, Marie says,
[25:28] Speaker 2: raising her hand in a sign to halt. No, leave
[25:31] Speaker 2: it to me. I'll take care of it. Marie moves
[25:35] Speaker 2: swiftly through the pines and scrabbles up the hill above
[25:37] Speaker 2: the cave. She quietly shifts a large rock, sliding it
[25:41] Speaker 2: over a few feet with a grunt. You know what
[25:44] Speaker 2: she's doing. She's blocking their air shaft. She returns to
[25:48] Speaker 2: your position in the woods and waits. She then scurries
[25:51] Speaker 2: back to camp and then comes back just as quickly
[25:53] Speaker 2: with a soup tureen. Qu'est-ce que c'est? What's that, Didier
[25:57] Speaker 2: beside you asks.
[25:58] Speaker 3: Du poivre.
[25:59] Speaker 2: Pepper, she tells the men. Just then, the Canadian miners
[26:03] Speaker 2: come stumbling out of the caves, gasping for breath. You
[26:07] Speaker 2: and the crew once again raise your tools, ready for action. Maurice,
[26:10] Speaker 2: a small man, hisses a weak, Vive la France. Marie
[26:15] Speaker 2: rolls her eyes. Wait here, she tells you. While the
[26:17] Speaker 2: Canadians are bent double, catching their breath, or walking around,
[26:21] Speaker 2: backs arched, trying to get as much clean mountain air
[26:24] Speaker 2: as possible into their lungs, Marie makes her move. She
[26:27] Speaker 2: moves swiftly to the opening of the cave and sits down,
[26:30] Speaker 2: the revolvers at each hip glinting in the morning sun,
[26:34] Speaker 2: the pot of pepper on the ground between her feet.
[26:36] Speaker 2: The Canadians try to re-enter the cave. No, barks Marie.
[26:41] Speaker 2: She tells the Canadians, if you try and come back
[26:43] Speaker 2: into my claim, if you try to set foot in
[26:46] Speaker 2: this cave, it'll be pepper first right to the face.
[26:50] Speaker 2: If you try again, it'll be lead to the face,
[26:52] Speaker 2: delivered courtesy of my revolvers. Your heart swells. This woman
[26:57] Speaker 2: is amazing. She signals for you to go move the
[27:00] Speaker 2: rock that's blocking the air hole. You do as commanded.
[27:03] Speaker 2: Then you and the crew move to the opening of
[27:05] Speaker 2: the cave, keeping an eye on the Canadians. Marie continues
[27:08] Speaker 2: her standoff, pot of pepper in hand. You and 13
[27:12] Speaker 2: other men flank her, pickaxes and iron bars held at
[27:15] Speaker 2: the ready. The rest of the crew heads into the mines,
[27:18] Speaker 2: whistling away as they begin to pull all the gold
[27:21] Speaker 2: they can from the cool earth inside.
[27:24] Speaker 3: Zarin. Yes.
[27:26] Speaker 2: So Marie and her men sat at the mouth of
[27:28] Speaker 2: the cave for eight days, eight nights, staring down the Canadians.
[27:33] Speaker 2: And behind them.
[27:34] Speaker 3: Some desperate Canadians.
[27:35] Speaker 2: Right? Well, I mean, they're thinking like, man, we came
[27:38] Speaker 2: down here. We can't get anything. Look at these guys.
[27:40] Speaker 3: They all have gold fever, too.
[27:41] Speaker 2: They're using slurs against the French.
[27:44] Speaker 3: I won't even repeat.
[27:45] Speaker 2: So Marie and her guys, they're guarding the front. But
[27:53] Speaker 2: then the rest of the pantalon crew, they're working behind them. Eventually,
[27:57] Speaker 2: the Canadians give up. Marie is able to fully take
[28:01] Speaker 2: back her claim as well as fully establish herself as
[28:04] Speaker 2: someone not to be messed with.
[28:05] Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
[28:06] Speaker 3: Yeah. She's a boss.
[28:08] Speaker 2: So Marie, she used her money to buy more claims.
[28:11] Speaker 2: But she also... diversified her investments. You've got to diversify
[28:15] Speaker 2: your bonds. You've got to. According to the book Jackson
[28:19] Speaker 2: by Deborah Colleen Cook, quote, in 1863, André Doué and
[28:24] Speaker 2: Marie Suiz took up the property at Secreta near Slabtown,
[28:29] Speaker 2: where they proceeded to plant extensive vineyards and bottle wine.
[28:33] Speaker 3: Oh, nice. They brought a little piece of France out.
[28:35] Speaker 2: She was one of California's first female winemakers.
[28:38] Speaker 3: What? Yes. Yes.
[28:40] Speaker 2: So remember her dad owned a tavern, so maybe it
[28:42] Speaker 2: was something that she kind of understood. But at that point, yeah,
[28:46] Speaker 2: because she owned the property.
[28:48] Speaker 3: And they still have a burgeoning wine country up there.
[28:52] Speaker 2: They do. The ranch was also known as French Garden,
[28:56] Speaker 2: and it became one of Amador's most successful early wineries.
[28:59] Speaker 2: It produced more grapes than anyone else in the area,
[29:02] Speaker 2: and today it's called Tabo Winery.
[29:05] Speaker 3: Okay.
[29:05] Speaker 2: So it's still operating. Okay. According to Pacific Rural Press,
[29:09] Speaker 2: April 8th, 1871, quote, Mademoiselle Marie Suiz is the proprietess
[29:15] Speaker 2: of a 300 acre tract of land cultivating some 30,000
[29:19] Speaker 2: vines and manufacturing about 12,000 gallons of wine and 600
[29:22] Speaker 2: gallons of brandy annually. With a view to silk raising,
[29:28] Speaker 2: she's cultivating 3,000 mulberry trees. Five men are regularly employed.
[29:33] Speaker 3: So that's 21 years after she arrived. So she's doing it.
[29:38] Speaker 2: She's doing it. She's making silk.
[29:40] Speaker 3: She's got like mulberry trees.
[29:42] Speaker 2: Isn't it so cool? So she opened up wine shops,
[29:45] Speaker 2: one in San Francisco, one in Virginia City, Nevada.
[29:48] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
[29:49] Speaker 2: And at this point, you know, she's... For the capital crowd.
[29:53] Speaker 2: She's churning all the good stuff out. According to Madam
[29:58] Speaker 2: Pantalone's Gold Rush Pioneer, quote, So there's just all of these.
[30:02] Speaker 2: One of the things that we talked about when we
[30:03] Speaker 2: were up there in Jackson is seeing like the last names.
[30:06] Speaker 2: There's a ton of Italian last names up there.
[30:07] Speaker 1: Yes.
[30:25] Speaker 3: Surprise me.
[30:26] Speaker 2: Yeah. And so you have these immigrant communities that are
[30:28] Speaker 2: kind of hooking each other up. And the Italians, like,
[30:31] Speaker 2: you know, Gallo, wine, they were from up there. And
[30:36] Speaker 2: all these, like, Bagigalupi, all these other families hooked each
[30:40] Speaker 2: other up. And the same went with the French and
[30:43] Speaker 2: all the— And I'm betting.
[30:44] Speaker 3: That the French and the Italians would rock with each other,
[30:47] Speaker 3: you know, somewhat in a preferential arrangement to others.
[30:50] Speaker 2: Well, and I think that the landscape really, like, mirrors
[30:55] Speaker 2: some of their, you know, coordinating landscape where they're from.
[31:00] Speaker 2: And so, okay, so she's got the wine shops. She's
[31:05] Speaker 2: a successful entrepreneur. And she also took advantage of a
[31:08] Speaker 2: law on the books from before California was a state.
[31:12] Speaker 3: Okay.
[31:12] Speaker 2: Unmarried women didn't have to pay taxes on the income
[31:16] Speaker 2: from their businesses.
[31:17] Speaker 3: Huh.
[31:17] Speaker 2: Because they didn't think they would ever have much.
[31:19] Speaker 3: That's like old, like, Spanish-Arabic law.
[31:23] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
[31:24] Speaker 3: Interesting.
[31:24] Speaker 2: Marie was different, though. Other people are, oh, you don't
[31:27] Speaker 2: have to pay taxes on that little pittance that you make.
[31:30] Speaker 2: you know, hemming pants. No, she's just pulling this money in,
[31:34] Speaker 2: paying no taxes on it. It was amazing.
[31:37] Speaker 3: Totally.
[31:37] Speaker 2: So she's working the system like any other business person,
[31:41] Speaker 2: but she didn't conform to the cult of true womanhood.
[31:45] Speaker 3: No.
[31:46] Speaker 2: She's still running around in pants and boots, even when
[31:48] Speaker 2: she went into town. And that wasn't just for like
[31:51] Speaker 2: when she's in the mines.
[31:52] Speaker 3: Yeah, she's transcended it now.
[31:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's just like, this is comfortable.
[31:55] Speaker 3: Like what?
[31:56] Speaker 2: This is reasonable, sensible. Where have you been all my life?
[31:59] Speaker 2: Up in Jackson, they're okay with it. The local authorities
[32:02] Speaker 2: knew her, respected her. They were willing to look the
[32:05] Speaker 2: other way, ignore the law, because the law was in
[32:07] Speaker 2: place everywhere that women couldn't wear pants.
[32:10] Speaker 3: It was a law?
[32:11] Speaker 2: It was a law.
[32:12] Speaker 3: It wasn't just a social custom? It was a law?
[32:15] Speaker 2: Women couldn't wear pants and men couldn't wear dresses. And
[32:19] Speaker 2: so I don't know how this impacted the Scots.
[32:20] Speaker 3: I was just about to ask. I mean, not to
[32:22] Speaker 3: be like cheeky.
[32:23] Speaker 2: You got your utility kilts on.
[32:24] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[32:26] Speaker 2: And or like little boys wearing dresses.
[32:28] Speaker 3: FDR. Yeah, that was very common.
[32:30] Speaker 2: Yeah. Boys and girls wore dresses.
[32:32] Speaker 3: Up to like school age. Yeah.
[32:33] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[32:34] Speaker 3: And the color switched.
[32:35] Speaker 2: In World War II. But there was a law.
[32:36] Speaker 3: They were wearing pink dresses.
[32:37] Speaker 2: That's right.
[32:38] Speaker 3: And girls were blue.
[32:39] Speaker 2: There was a law. That's why. I didn't know there
[32:41] Speaker 2: was a law. So this lack of conformity got Marie
[32:43] Speaker 2: in trouble when she ventured outside Amador County. She committed
[32:48] Speaker 2: a ridiculous crime.
[32:50] Speaker 3: Literally a ridiculous crime.
[32:51] Speaker 2: She wore pants in public, and for that, she was arrested.
[32:54] Speaker 3: What?
[32:55] Speaker 2: More than once.
[32:56] Speaker 3: What?
[32:57] Speaker 2: She was traveling more as the vineyard took off, had
[32:59] Speaker 2: to do business in the big city, and that invited
[33:02] Speaker 2: nothing but trouble.
[33:02] Speaker 3: She wouldn't put on like a traveling skirt. She's like,
[33:04] Speaker 3: the hell with that.
[33:05] Speaker 2: No, she's like, are you kidding?
[33:06] Speaker 3: Yeah. Do you remember the last time I got a
[33:08] Speaker 3: mosquito bite? Because I don't.
[33:09] Speaker 2: Because I don't either. Let's take a break, and when
[33:11] Speaker 2: we come back, pants. So Marie Suisse.
[33:36] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[33:36] Speaker 2: Marie Pantelon.
[33:37] Speaker 3: Marie Pantelon.
[33:38] Speaker 2: Sometimes they wrote it out as Panteloon. Marie Pantelon.
[33:40] Speaker 3: Oh, of course. Yeah.
[33:41] Speaker 2: But she's been Marie Pantelon.
[33:43] Speaker 3: I prefer the more Spanish French version.
[33:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. She had a lot of money that
[33:47] Speaker 2: she made mining. Like she made a lot.
[33:50] Speaker 3: I'm guessing.
[33:50] Speaker 2: And then she made a lot in the wine business.
[33:52] Speaker 3: I forgot. Yeah. And the silk too, I imagine.
[33:54] Speaker 2: So she's just rich.
[33:55] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[33:56] Speaker 2: And there were men buzzing around, like, looking to marry her.
[34:00] Speaker 3: She's Penelope now.
[34:01] Speaker 2: Well, there were men that she took up with and, like,
[34:03] Speaker 2: men who had a genuine interest in her and vice versa.
[34:06] Speaker 3: Oh, okay.
[34:06] Speaker 2: But she didn't want to change her life. She wanted
[34:09] Speaker 2: to control her assets.
[34:10] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. She gets married.
[34:11] Speaker 2: It's not hers.
[34:12] Speaker 3: Not community property, but it's half theirs.
[34:14] Speaker 2: It's his. Not even half.
[34:16] Speaker 3: Okay. Yeah.
[34:17] Speaker 2: She wanted to be able to travel, like not have
[34:19] Speaker 2: to ask permission for anything. She wanted to call the
[34:21] Speaker 2: shots in her life. So like marriage just wasn't for her.
[34:25] Speaker 2: And that was not true womanhood, Zarin.
[34:27] Speaker 3: Right. I forgot that.
[34:28] Speaker 2: Plus she's going around. She's breaking the social contract by
[34:31] Speaker 2: wearing pants. That's the real crime here. She's rich. She's influential.
[34:35] Speaker 2: She's been wearing pants for 20 years. Things are changing.
[34:39] Speaker 2: So at the peak of the gold rush, People didn't
[34:42] Speaker 2: care about those sort of things.
[34:43] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[34:44] Speaker 2: There's more freedom for everybody. People who were in other
[34:46] Speaker 2: parts of the country living under the constraints of stereotypes
[34:50] Speaker 2: and restrictions had opportunities unthinkable anywhere else. So religious groups,
[34:56] Speaker 2: ethnic groups, social classes, they could all take the opportunities
[35:00] Speaker 2: before them. In California, everything was possible.
[35:03] Speaker 3: Hmm.
[35:04] Speaker 2: And there were certainly risks, but the risks were rewarded
[35:07] Speaker 2: with incredible freedom.
[35:08] Speaker 3: I got you. Kind of setting the mold for us
[35:11] Speaker 3: being the freak state.
[35:12] Speaker 2: Basically. And honestly, there was a time in the very
[35:16] Speaker 2: beginning of the gold rush, it didn't matter what color
[35:19] Speaker 2: you were, what gender you were, what religion you were.
[35:22] Speaker 2: You were just a human being trying to get that gold.
[35:24] Speaker 2: And so go with it.
[35:27] Speaker 3: Unless you run into one of them, like, you know,
[35:29] Speaker 3: former Confederates who made their way out. Or actually not,
[35:31] Speaker 3: I guess it wouldn't be Confederates yet. But like the
[35:33] Speaker 3: people from the South who'd made their way out are like,
[35:36] Speaker 3: I have my prejudices already. So you can still run
[35:38] Speaker 3: into that.
[35:41] Speaker 2: But then society came to California and so did its restrictions.
[35:45] Speaker 2: So with this booming population there, I mean, there obviously
[35:48] Speaker 2: there's a need for more laws. But many of those
[35:52] Speaker 2: laws weren't just creating order. They were imposing the prejudices
[35:56] Speaker 2: and all this like outside stuff.
[35:58] Speaker 3: Both the South and the North.
[35:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, from the rest of the world.
[36:01] Speaker 3: Yeah, from the rest of the world. Good point.
[36:03] Speaker 2: So California entered the Union as a free state in 1850.
[36:07] Speaker 2: But the legislature passed stuff like the Fugitive Slave Act
[36:10] Speaker 2: of 1852.
[36:10] Speaker 3: It was real close on it being a free state.
[36:13] Speaker 2: They barred black witnesses from testifying against white people. They
[36:17] Speaker 2: tolerated illegal enslavement.
[36:19] Speaker 3: Pretty much from the day they became a state, they're like, okay, wait,
[36:22] Speaker 3: we're going to stratify this.
[36:24] Speaker 2: But you go before that, there were a lot of
[36:27] Speaker 2: black miners who went up. And much in the way
[36:30] Speaker 2: that the French and the Italians stuck together, these formerly
[36:35] Speaker 2: enslaved people from the South came up and used a
[36:38] Speaker 2: network and they had whole towns and claims.
[36:40] Speaker 3: Some made fortunes and would move back to Philadelphia rich
[36:42] Speaker 3: as hell.
[36:43] Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And so then you have the whole no
[36:47] Speaker 2: cross-dressing thing. That's a huge danger to people, right, Zarin?
[36:50] Speaker 3: Apparently.
[36:51] Speaker 2: I mean, if women wear pants, everything falls apart.
[36:53] Speaker 3: What happens next?
[36:55] Speaker 2: One time she went to Virginia City.
[36:57] Speaker 3: Cats and dogs living together.
[37:00] Speaker 2: She goes to Virginia City to visit her own store
[37:03] Speaker 2: that she owns. Cops stopped her and told her to
[37:06] Speaker 2: put on a dress and leave town. It wasn't like
[37:09] Speaker 2: put on a dress if you want to stay in town.
[37:11] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[37:11] Speaker 2: Put on a dress and get out of here.
[37:13] Speaker 3: So wait a minute. nevada what was the culture like
[37:16] Speaker 3: there because they're about to have their silver boom a
[37:18] Speaker 3: little bit after worse.
[37:19] Speaker 2: Than i mean like they were wilder than we.
[37:22] Speaker 3: Were yes but i remember but i mean it sounds
[37:24] Speaker 3: like the law was kind of like we're up against
[37:26] Speaker 3: it so we're going to enforce things like had they
[37:28] Speaker 3: figured out they hear them from the gold rush like
[37:30] Speaker 3: we need to like.
[37:30] Speaker 2: I think when you get into places like uh you
[37:33] Speaker 2: know virginia city and you know it's such a blurred
[37:37] Speaker 2: line up.
[37:37] Speaker 3: There and it's a boom town so it's like you
[37:39] Speaker 3: know the people are gonna be getting wild so it's
[37:40] Speaker 3: like Do you have a sheriff who's like, I'm all
[37:43] Speaker 3: about law and order. I guess they did. And I'm
[37:44] Speaker 3: going to impose the dress rule really hard.
[37:46] Speaker 2: I guess it made them uncomfortable.
[37:48] Speaker 3: Also, no guns in town, but also no pants on ladies.
[37:50] Speaker 2: But also no pants on ladies.
[37:51] Speaker 3: These two dangers cannot be abided.
[37:54] Speaker 2: The Daily Alta California, April 25th, 1871 reported, quote, It appears,
[38:00] Speaker 2: says the Virginia Enterprise, that Marie Suiz, the woman who
[38:04] Speaker 2: was engaged in business for some months in this city
[38:06] Speaker 2: in male apparel, has been fined $ 5 in San Francisco
[38:11] Speaker 2: by Judge Sawyer and required to doff her masculine toggery
[38:16] Speaker 2: and don the proper implements of her sex. In this city,
[38:20] Speaker 2: she kept a wine store on B Street. where she
[38:23] Speaker 2: sold the products of a very large vineyard owned by
[38:25] Speaker 2: her in California. Soon after making her appearance here, she
[38:29] Speaker 2: applied to the Board of Aldermen for permission to be
[38:32] Speaker 2: allowed to wear male attire. The matter was left discretionary
[38:35] Speaker 2: with the chief of police, he having authority to arrest
[38:38] Speaker 2: her at any time should he think proper. She was
[38:41] Speaker 2: in business here for several months and was never arrested,
[38:44] Speaker 2: though some of the other, quote, sole traders of her
[38:47] Speaker 2: sex were very uneasy about her for several weeks. It
[38:51] Speaker 2: came out last that there were many of these persons
[38:54] Speaker 2: who felt that they also ought to be allowed to
[38:56] Speaker 2: wear the breeches in case they desire to do so.
[38:59] Speaker 2: As in San Francisco, Marie Suiz stated here that she
[39:02] Speaker 2: had dressed as a man for 18 years, had worked
[39:05] Speaker 2: in the mines with men in Amador County, California, and
[39:08] Speaker 2: had even made a trip to France and tarried for
[39:10] Speaker 2: some months in European countries dressed in male attire. It
[39:14] Speaker 2: is said that she looks much better in male than
[39:17] Speaker 2: female habiliments.
[39:18] Speaker 3: Wow.
[39:19] Speaker 2: We should suppose so. She had not the face or
[39:22] Speaker 2: figure to set off a Grecian bend. She was sailor built.
[39:26] Speaker 2: She will be apt to get out of San Francisco
[39:29] Speaker 2: and into Amidala. County and her breaches as speedily as possible.
[39:33] Speaker 3: Dude, the newspapers of the past.
[39:35] Speaker 2: So judgmental, especially because the other descriptions of her is
[39:39] Speaker 2: that she's this beautiful woman. This long curly hair.
[39:42] Speaker 3: She looks like a sailor. What the hell?
[39:45] Speaker 2: Stubby bride.
[39:47] Speaker 3: Half of the women are like, I don't know about that.
[39:49] Speaker 3: Looking at it, other half are like, I want that
[39:52] Speaker 3: for me. But either way, they use it as a problem.
[39:54] Speaker 3: They're like, she's making some women nervous and she's making
[39:57] Speaker 3: some women unruly.
[39:59] Speaker 2: And the whole thing, she's making them nervous and they're thinking, wait,
[40:02] Speaker 2: I want to wear pants too.
[40:03] Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
[40:04] Speaker 2: So, I mean, that's one of the dangers is that
[40:06] Speaker 2: if she lights this match, the fire is going to catch.
[40:09] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
[40:10] Speaker 2: One of her arrests, though, was in fact in her
[40:12] Speaker 2: hometown of Jackson in Amador County.
[40:15] Speaker 3: Really?
[40:15] Speaker 2: They actually went to her home to get her. So
[40:19] Speaker 2: I think someone... Ratted her out. Yeah, she rubbed him
[40:21] Speaker 2: the wrong way. It might have been a business thing.
[40:23] Speaker 3: They're like, this lady in pants.
[40:25] Speaker 2: They dragged her in to a jury. And the jury
[40:29] Speaker 2: declared it a huge waste of time.
[40:31] Speaker 3: Do we know what year this was?
[40:33] Speaker 2: I do not have the exact year.
[40:34] Speaker 3: I was just figuring, I'm trying to guess where... Win
[40:36] Speaker 3: these like Eastern values and.
[40:38] Speaker 2: More worldly values. I think it's all around the same time.
[40:41] Speaker 2: I think it's that 1871 era.
[40:42] Speaker 3: Okay, that makes sense. So basically once you're about 20
[40:44] Speaker 3: years out from success and you have a whole generation. Exactly.
[40:48] Speaker 3: Now you've got new people showing up. And you've got
[40:50] Speaker 3: to think about the kids.
[40:51] Speaker 2: And the latecomers who are late to the party. And
[40:53] Speaker 2: then they're like, well, I'm just going to.
[40:54] Speaker 3: I got here from Baltimore and I can't believe how
[40:56] Speaker 3: you people live.
[40:56] Speaker 2: This is not how we do it in Baltimore. Well,
[40:58] Speaker 2: go back. Um, so anyway, uh, they went to her house,
[41:03] Speaker 2: dragged her out. They were like, no, actually this is
[41:05] Speaker 2: a waste of time. She was supposed to go hunting
[41:07] Speaker 2: with some of like the jury members later and they
[41:10] Speaker 2: didn't want to get held up. They're like, what did,
[41:12] Speaker 2: why'd you bring her in here? And so they released
[41:15] Speaker 2: her outside the courthouse. A group of suffragettes had gathered
[41:18] Speaker 2: to support her good for them inside the courthouse. She
[41:22] Speaker 2: used the dismissal of her case as a chance to
[41:24] Speaker 2: go and apply to get a license to wear pants.
[41:27] Speaker 2: License approved.
[41:28] Speaker 3: License to wear pants.
[41:29] Speaker 2: She had a pants license.
[41:31] Speaker 3: I imagine she'd have to have a license to go
[41:33] Speaker 3: into a saloon. Apparently not because.
[41:36] Speaker 2: She went into them all the time. She drank in saloons.
[41:38] Speaker 3: All the time. That's what I was wondering because if
[41:40] Speaker 3: she has money, you'd think that people are going to
[41:42] Speaker 3: look the other way.
[41:43] Speaker 2: Usually in this world.
[41:43] Speaker 3: But then they're going to her house and dragging her
[41:45] Speaker 3: out for wearing pants.
[41:46] Speaker 2: In this world, money usually lets you do whatever you want.
[41:49] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[41:49] Speaker 2: At that volume. She was so phenomenally wealthy. But you
[41:54] Speaker 2: think about it, like at the time the roads weren't paved.
[41:57] Speaker 2: There's not a robust sewage system. Horses are dropping their
[42:01] Speaker 2: mess everywhere. And yet women are expected to wear long dresses.
[42:05] Speaker 2: They had to cover their ankles. And they're not supposed
[42:07] Speaker 2: to wear boots. No. You know.
[42:09] Speaker 3: Those dainty little shoes with the buckles and stuff.
[42:11] Speaker 2: Like those little ankle breakers with a little tiny heel.
[42:14] Speaker 2: Everything was stacked against them. They couldn't do many of
[42:17] Speaker 2: the jobs, manual labor or otherwise. They couldn't vote. So
[42:20] Speaker 2: they couldn't even dress for the conditions.
[42:22] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[42:23] Speaker 2: You know, Marie, though, she doesn't care. She's like, I
[42:25] Speaker 2: do what I want. You want me to pay a
[42:27] Speaker 2: fine for wearing these pants? Here, take your money.
[42:29] Speaker 3: You do know I carry a gun on me, right?
[42:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, she was. She was making that money, but like sometimes. Yeah.
[42:36] Speaker 2: So she and Douay, they used most of the wine
[42:39] Speaker 2: profits to buy more gold claims. Most of the time
[42:42] Speaker 2: it paid off, but then things were petering out and
[42:44] Speaker 2: there were times when it didn't. So their fortunes went
[42:46] Speaker 2: up and down.
[42:47] Speaker 3: Okay.
[42:48] Speaker 2: One time she lost $ 80, 000 in some bum mines outside
[42:52] Speaker 2: Virginia City. That works out to $ 2. 5 million today. So
[42:57] Speaker 2: she just sold some stuff off, made herself whole again.
[42:59] Speaker 3: Okay. Yeah.
[43:00] Speaker 2: But like, so that's the magnitude of her wealth that
[43:03] Speaker 2: we're talking about. Like one business deal is 2.5 million.
[43:06] Speaker 2: And that's one that didn't work, but she had a
[43:08] Speaker 2: bunch that did. An article in the blog, Those Pre-Pro
[43:13] Speaker 2: Whiskey Men. Exclamation point.
[43:15] Speaker 3: That's the blog's name? Yeah.
[43:17] Speaker 2: Reads, quote, even as her assets dwindled, Marie continued to
[43:20] Speaker 2: gamble on the stock market, perhaps hoping to recoup some
[43:24] Speaker 2: of her former wealth. She is said to have lost
[43:26] Speaker 2: $ 150, 000 in one day on stocks as the markets fluctuated wildly.
[43:31] Speaker 2: Among her losses were a stake in the Comstock load.
[43:35] Speaker 2: She told an interviewer that she had accrued a cubic...
[43:38] Speaker 2: meter of gold in her lifetime but lost it all
[43:42] Speaker 2: in speculative investments.
[43:44] Speaker 3: That's how mark twain almost wanted to himself.
[43:46] Speaker 2: Because meter of gold.
[43:48] Speaker 3: Losing money on gold and silver claims they would have
[43:51] Speaker 3: these mines and they would offer out like stock on
[43:54] Speaker 3: shares on she's.
[43:55] Speaker 2: Like three million here two and a half million here
[43:57] Speaker 2: easy come easy flow cubic meter of gold i'll take
[44:02] Speaker 2: it that's crazy that's nuts Francis Douay, he bought her
[44:06] Speaker 2: out of the San Francisco wine and liquor store.
[44:09] Speaker 3: Okay.
[44:10] Speaker 2: And then he placed an ad announcing a new partnership,
[44:13] Speaker 2: and it read, customers of the house are respectfully solicited
[44:16] Speaker 2: to continue their patronage as the new owners will continue
[44:20] Speaker 2: to keep up the reputation of the house for good
[44:22] Speaker 2: wines and liquors. So people specifically sought her store out
[44:26] Speaker 2: because she had such high quality stuff.
[44:28] Speaker 3: That's a lot of words to say, under new management. Basically, yeah.
[44:31] Speaker 2: So she pretty much went into retirement around 1881. She
[44:35] Speaker 2: retreated to Jackson and her ranch.
[44:37] Speaker 3: 1881. Yeah.
[44:39] Speaker 2: She had loyal employees, but as her fortune shrank to
[44:42] Speaker 2: almost nothing, so did her crew. She had one ranch
[44:46] Speaker 2: hand who stuck it out with her to the end
[44:48] Speaker 2: and he stayed with her forever. As she drank and
[44:50] Speaker 2: smoked and gambled in the saloons in Jackson.
[44:53] Speaker 3: That'd be me. I'd be hanging out with her.
[44:55] Speaker 2: You'd be the one.
[44:58] Speaker 3: I'll go ready the wagon. We're going to town. Exactly.
[45:01] Speaker 2: Hell, like, pour her back into the coach. It was
[45:06] Speaker 2: on January 8th, 1892, that she died at the age
[45:09] Speaker 2: of 68.
[45:09] Speaker 3: Yeah, young.
[45:11] Speaker 2: She had a will that left everything to Douay.
[45:14] Speaker 3: Really?
[45:15] Speaker 2: Yeah. She was buried in St. Patrick's Catholic Cemetery, Amador.
[45:20] Speaker 2: Because she died with nothing, really, just the ranch, she
[45:23] Speaker 2: was put in an unmarked grave, which is kind of
[45:26] Speaker 2: a loser move by Douay.
[45:27] Speaker 3: I was just about to say, I'm like, I was
[45:29] Speaker 3: about to ask, it sounds like when she left everything
[45:31] Speaker 3: to him, I'm like, so they were kind of like
[45:32] Speaker 3: life partners, but then she's left in an unmarked grave,
[45:34] Speaker 3: and I'm like, they were not life partners. They were
[45:36] Speaker 3: not life partners.
[45:37] Speaker 2: No, they were not.
[45:37] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[45:38] Speaker 2: Back in Ton, France, her brother told her story to everyone.
[45:41] Speaker 2: She became a legend in the town.
[45:43] Speaker 3: Glad someone did.
[45:44] Speaker 2: But as in Jackson, that legend faded and only her
[45:47] Speaker 2: family remembered her.
[45:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, like living memory, basically. Yeah.
[45:50] Speaker 2: Well, her great-grandniece, Anne Rohrer, she tells a story in
[45:55] Speaker 2: that documentary, Marie Suisse Pantalone, Itinerary of a Pioneer, about
[46:01] Speaker 2: how Marie's brother came back from California and brought with
[46:04] Speaker 2: him this little scale that was used to weigh gold.
[46:07] Speaker 2: And then there's a little gold nugget.
[46:08] Speaker 4: Hmm.
[46:09] Speaker 2: And it's still in the family today. They show it.
[46:12] Speaker 2: And she and her siblings, Anne and her siblings were
[46:14] Speaker 2: just like fascinated by this and the story. So they
[46:17] Speaker 2: passed the story down through generations, but it didn't really
[46:19] Speaker 2: get outside of the family.
[46:20] Speaker 3: I wonder what it was like for her brother to
[46:22] Speaker 3: watch all of this. Now he goes out there with her.
[46:25] Speaker 3: He's right by her side, but she kind of separates
[46:27] Speaker 3: or keeps a wall between them in business. It sounds
[46:29] Speaker 3: like he's somewhat involved.
[46:30] Speaker 2: But I don't know. It's so little information on him.
[46:33] Speaker 3: But I mean, like, he's not the will. He's not
[46:35] Speaker 3: the beneficiary of her will. You know what I mean?
[46:37] Speaker 3: And you didn't mention him being in like involved in
[46:39] Speaker 3: some of the businesses as a clear partner.
[46:41] Speaker 2: Right, exactly. And there's not a whole lot about him.
[46:44] Speaker 2: There's nothing to search for.
[46:45] Speaker 3: I wonder if he was like, you know, like in
[46:47] Speaker 3: some way, like just not a very social person.
[46:50] Speaker 4: Yeah, who knows?
[46:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. None of the family letters back and forth
[46:55] Speaker 2: with the family in France were saved on either end.
[46:59] Speaker 2: One of the only written records of Marie that exists
[47:02] Speaker 2: is her signature on a petition that for the extension
[47:05] Speaker 2: of some water supply for mining.
[47:07] Speaker 3: Okay.
[47:08] Speaker 2: And her signature, which is really beautifully written and flourished,
[47:11] Speaker 2: is way bigger than everyone else's, like very John Hancock.
[47:14] Speaker 4: Totally, yes.
[47:15] Speaker 2: She's the only woman to sign the document. She signed
[47:17] Speaker 2: it Marie Suisse Pantalone.
[47:19] Speaker 3: Nice.
[47:20] Speaker 2: So 112 years after she died, on July 14th, 2004,
[47:23] Speaker 2: Amador County celebrated its 150th anniversary.
[47:26] Speaker 3: Okay.
[47:30] Speaker 2: And part of that celebration was paying tribute to Marie.
[47:33] Speaker 3: Hell yeah.
[47:33] Speaker 2: Like she had not been talked about, but like the
[47:35] Speaker 2: local groups had kind of been pushing, we've got to
[47:38] Speaker 2: do something. The historical societies and so forth. So they
[47:40] Speaker 2: unveiled a memorial plaque acknowledging her life and her accomplishments.
[47:44] Speaker 2: And she was honored by being named the Sesquicentennial Woman
[47:49] Speaker 2: of the Year.
[47:49] Speaker 3: Yes, I love this. Yeah.
[47:51] Speaker 2: But so there is a plaque at the cemetery now.
[47:54] Speaker 3: Okay.
[47:54] Speaker 2: Um, so Zarin.
[47:55] Speaker 3: We need a statue. I know.
[47:57] Speaker 2: We need a movie. Zarin, what's your ridiculous takeaway?
[48:00] Speaker 3: That there was a law for women to not wear pants.
[48:05] Speaker 3: I know that's the central crime of this story, but like, I,
[48:09] Speaker 3: you could have knocked me over with a feather when
[48:11] Speaker 3: you said that. I thought it was like a joke.
[48:13] Speaker 3: I mean, it's like, I thought it was more social custom,
[48:15] Speaker 3: you know, like, oh, people are going to talk and like, oh,
[48:18] Speaker 3: we're not going to invite you to the tea or whatever.
[48:20] Speaker 3: But it was like, no, we're sending the sheriff or
[48:23] Speaker 3: like in this case, I guess the city cop, like
[48:25] Speaker 3: the chief of police is going to have to come
[48:27] Speaker 3: and drag you into court. That's just nuts. The things
[48:30] Speaker 3: that we will make laws for to be like, oh,
[48:33] Speaker 3: you got to keep it. You know, I have a
[48:35] Speaker 3: hard time with the whole idea of law and order.
[48:36] Speaker 3: I think most of it is about order and not
[48:39] Speaker 3: about law. But in this case, the law was clearly
[48:42] Speaker 3: about keeping the social order happy. And like, we don't
[48:44] Speaker 3: want the, like, I don't know. the nice and clean
[48:49] Speaker 3: folk to be upset. And they're like, she is such
[48:51] Speaker 3: the best part of what's going on in this period
[48:54] Speaker 3: of time.
[48:54] Speaker 2: Is she not the American dream?
[48:56] Speaker 3: Is she not an exemplar of what you people are
[48:58] Speaker 3: going to later celebrate and what you're going to actually
[48:59] Speaker 3: be like writing to the people back in like New
[49:02] Speaker 3: York city about like, you know how we live in California.
[49:04] Speaker 3: You're going to be describing her. You're making your legend
[49:07] Speaker 3: off of her, but you won't let her live free.
[49:09] Speaker 3: It's just ridiculous how history repeats. So we're like, We're
[49:12] Speaker 3: going to want to talk about these freaks, but for
[49:14] Speaker 3: the most time, we're also going to have laws to
[49:18] Speaker 3: try to keep them in order so we can keep
[49:20] Speaker 3: a thumb down on them. Otherwise, they're just going to
[49:21] Speaker 3: be all flagrant in our face.
[49:23] Speaker 2: Well, who are the freaks that we're trying to keep
[49:24] Speaker 2: down now?
[49:25] Speaker 3: That's what I'm talking about. You know what I mean? Like,
[49:27] Speaker 3: it's just, why can't we just let people be? Like,
[49:29] Speaker 3: laws should be for harm. It shouldn't be for discomfort
[49:33] Speaker 3: or like, you know what? I don't like it when,
[49:35] Speaker 3: I don't give a flying what if. anything about what
[49:38] Speaker 3: you don't like. You know what I don't like? We
[49:40] Speaker 3: ain't got no laws for that. But I digress. What
[49:43] Speaker 3: about you, Elizabeth? What do you think is a takeaway?
[49:45] Speaker 2: I think people dismiss the importance of stories like this. Like,
[49:49] Speaker 2: we look at it as foolish. Like, how could they
[49:51] Speaker 2: care about women wearing pants? That social restriction stood for
[49:56] Speaker 2: far longer than the late 1800s. Like, in the 1970s,
[50:00] Speaker 2: there were workplaces that wouldn't let women wear pants.
[50:03] Speaker 1: What?
[50:04] Speaker 2: Into the 70s. And so.
[50:07] Speaker 2: If we look beyond the foolishness and the ridiculousness of like,
[50:10] Speaker 2: you got arrested for wearing pants. There's so much more.
[50:14] Speaker 2: This is a story of an influential figure in California history, U.S. history,
[50:20] Speaker 2: who was pretty much forgotten for a century. And that's
[50:24] Speaker 2: in large part because she was a woman.
[50:27] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, 100%.
[50:27] Speaker 2: And I know there are men out there rolling their
[50:30] Speaker 2: eyes at me right now, but you can't deny this.
[50:33] Speaker 2: Here's what we have to always remember. It does not
[50:36] Speaker 2: diminish you to accept the dismissal that others feel or experience.
[50:43] Speaker 2: Doesn't diminish you. No. Unless you're the perpetrator.
[50:46] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[50:46] Speaker 2: In which case, then you got to think about that.
[50:48] Speaker 2: But it's, if you, you know, we can say, yeah,
[50:51] Speaker 2: this happened because, you know, women weren't written into the
[50:54] Speaker 2: histories then. And if we think, okay, here's Marie Pantalone,
[50:57] Speaker 2: who's like a multimillionaire.
[50:59] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
[51:00] Speaker 2: And has money. You know, one of the most successful
[51:04] Speaker 2: vineyards in that area. And all these things, right, that
[51:08] Speaker 2: she would be, she'd have streets named for her other
[51:10] Speaker 2: places if she were a man. Because you look at
[51:14] Speaker 2: all over Northern California, the names that we have of
[51:17] Speaker 2: places are all those people, her peers. But we don't
[51:22] Speaker 2: have that. And so what it does is it makes
[51:25] Speaker 2: me think about the fact that who else do we
[51:28] Speaker 2: not know about? You know what I mean?
[51:29] Speaker 3: There's so many.
[51:30] Speaker 2: And then also, we talk about different kinds of history,
[51:33] Speaker 2: women's history, you know, Black history, Chicano history. It's American history,
[51:38] Speaker 2: all of it.
[51:39] Speaker 3: Yes.
[51:39] Speaker 2: And that's why I think why you have to isolate
[51:42] Speaker 2: it out and push it is because it's not considered
[51:44] Speaker 2: part of American history.
[51:45] Speaker 3: Yes, it's shunted off as the other. So it's not
[51:47] Speaker 3: Asian history. It's the history of an American who's Asian. Right.
[51:50] Speaker 2: And so we wouldn't have to put those distinctions on
[51:53] Speaker 2: if everyone just saw this as American history. So that's
[51:56] Speaker 2: my rant.
[51:57] Speaker 3: It's good. I agree with you.
[51:59] Speaker 4: And.
[52:00] Speaker 2: All that said, I think I could use a talkback.
[52:03] Speaker 3: Hell yeah.
[52:05] Speaker 2: Talkback.
[52:07] Speaker 3: Oh, my God. Did he just say that? OMG. Hey, Zarin.
[52:18] Speaker 2: Elizabeth.
[52:19] Speaker 4: This is Ray from Huntsville, Alabama. I got my vasectomy
[52:23] Speaker 4: done last week, and the doctor gave me the option
[52:27] Speaker 4: of listening to music or... And I asked him what
[52:31] Speaker 4: about a podcast. And he said, well, no one's ever
[52:36] Speaker 4: asked me one. So what do you want to listen to?
[52:38] Speaker 4: I told him Ridiculous Crime. So now you got two new...
[52:43] Speaker 4: It's Ray again. Let me finish my last thing. Now
[52:48] Speaker 4: you got two new rude dudes listening to Ridiculous Crime
[52:52] Speaker 4: while snipping guys in their office.
[52:55] Speaker 3: That's it.
[52:56] Speaker 4: Have a good day. Bye-bye.
[52:58] Speaker 3: I cannot love that more, Ray.
[52:59] Speaker 2: This is so incredible, Ray.
[53:02] Speaker 3: You're both responsible and also giving and sharing. I just
[53:05] Speaker 3: love that. Good on you, brother.
[53:09] Speaker 2: Oh, my God. And I would love to know what
[53:13] Speaker 2: the doctor thought.
[53:13] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[53:14] Speaker 2: First time podcast, vasectomy.
[53:16] Speaker 3: First time.
[53:17] Speaker 2: That's cool.
[53:18] Speaker 3: Long time snipper, first time podcast.
[53:21] Speaker 2: Like, was he entertained? Yeah, who knows?
[53:24] Speaker 3: Interesting.
[53:25] Speaker 2: Interesting. That's amazing. Thank you for that. That's it for today.
[53:29] Speaker 2: You can find us online at RidiculousCrime.com. We're also at
[53:34] Speaker 2: Ridiculous Crime on Blue Sky. We're on Instagram. You can
[53:37] Speaker 2: email us at RidiculousCrime at gmail.com. And please leave a
[53:42] Speaker 2: talkback on the iHeart app. It's free.
[53:44] Speaker 3: Reach out.
[53:45] Speaker 2: This is also the second medical rude dude thing we've had.
[53:48] Speaker 2: Because remember the one person got out of surgery and
[53:50] Speaker 2: wanted to talk to us. Reach out. Ridiculous Crime is
[53:58] Speaker 2: hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zarin Burnett, produced and edited
[54:01] Speaker 2: by heir to the Kustin's Acres pickle wine fortune, Dave Kustin.
[54:05] Speaker 2: Our ridiculous assistant is bell-bottom believer Terry Maldonado Fong. Research
[54:10] Speaker 2: is by ruthless Amador County shovel merchant Marissa Brown. The
[54:13] Speaker 2: theme song is by sneaky Canadian miners Thomas Lee and
[54:17] Speaker 2: Travis Dutton. Post wardrobe is provided by Botany 500. Producer
[54:20] Speaker 2: Dave Kustin's wardrobe is by Mr. Guy of Beverly Hills.
[54:24] Speaker 2: Guest hair and makeup by Sparkle Shot and Mr. Andre.
[54:28] Speaker 2: Executive producers are loyal French Gardens ranch hands Ben Bolin
[54:32] Speaker 2: and Noel Brown.
[54:38] Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime.
[54:41] Speaker 2: Say it one more time.
[54:43] Speaker 4: Ridiculous Crime.
[54:45] Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
[54:48] Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever
[54:52] Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.

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