# Scaling Laws

A podcast by Lawfare & University of Texas Law School. Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas and Senior Editor at Lawfare, dive into the intersection of AI, innovation policy, and the law through regular interviews with the folks deep in the weeds of developing, regulating, and adopting AI. They also provide regular rapid-response analysis of breaking AI governance news. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Feed: https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134

## Latest episodes

- [Live at Univ. of Oregon: AI and State Governments with Nik Blosser](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/e85a2e7bac39) (2026-10-27, 46 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6adf53698f6f9dc453c6263d/media.mp3
- [Live at North Dakota Law: Justice Jerod Tufte on AI in the Judiciary](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/50c61a4a1260) (2026-10-20, 48 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6ad6e1a510faf2bcfcaba562/media.mp3
- [Scaling Laws Live at Nebraska Law: Matt Tokson on AI Surveillance](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/b7aa71f851cf) (2026-10-13, 49 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6acd02ccd3bfab176e8ef08c/media.mp3
- [Hélène Landemore on Public Participation in AI Governance](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/dd792dd54e1a) (2026-10-06, 54 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6ab996a8c974afb154bb9118/media.mp3
- [Child Safety AI Policy at Scale with Vaishnavi J and Dave Willner](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/11b4f6a3968b) (2026-09-29, 52 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6ab4399f079b46c819889aca/media.mp3
- [Live from Columbia Law with Chloé Bakalar: What can constitutions teach us about governing AI?](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/c1e1871284c4) (2026-09-22, 53 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6ab1f8fe1f5b87e53521e346/media.mp3
- [Is Meta's Oversight Board a Model for AI Governance](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/938b9c4604c1) (2026-09-15, 47 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a8f4493d8ffec4c41ff7e41/media.mp3
- [Algorithmic Disgorgement with Christina Lee \[Live From LawAI's Workshop on Law-Following AI\]](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/78563e51fe93) (2026-09-08, 38 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a4c0559f29b714222a22751/media.mp3
- [Building AI Assurance Ecosystem with Bri Treece (PACT AI) and Dr. Rob Slone (UL Solutions)](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/51d3c25e2b5c) (2026-09-01, 50 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a95cd750305125c635a9e1e/media.mp3
- [Founders & Founders: Brandon Mitchell of WriteSea](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/7c7d5d0ac1d0) (2026-08-28, 44 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a049e4c8ef93689738a246c/media.mp3
- [AI Consciousness with Anil Seth](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/9d45b78a23db) (2026-08-25, 54 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a7d6e40baea6e03b053a9b2/media.mp3
- [Matt Abrams on Trust and the Migration to the Digital Age](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/4b6fb0840dc1) (2026-08-18, 49 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a68042da02cbcf2a1d848ec/media.mp3
- [Founders & Founders: Matthew Schwartz of Virgo](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/942686e93d5f) (2026-08-14, 43 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69f9560a3a143563edaf0b68/media.mp3
- [Daniel Kokotajlo on AI 2040: Plan A](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/c9ea8d408819) (2026-08-11, 64 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a761bcad410c25118fb0fa0/media.mp3
- [DZ Kalman on the Role of Faith in AI Policy](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/0902ac7d5e14) (2026-08-04, 50 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a4bedd8d555352bfa6015d0/media.mp3
- [Founders & Founders: Laura Davis of USLege](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/5d1c0725ba36) (2026-07-31, 43 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69f94eab836b4ec7189f67ff/media.mp3
- [Google's Kent Walker on Regulating Frontier AI](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/812784b5da6c) (2026-07-28, 27 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a67acbea02cbcf2a1b84fbf/media.mp3
- [The Politics and Politicking of AI with Assemblymember Alex Bores](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/a4db76dc4c70) (2026-07-24, 52 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a62e3ada51cbd54e212192f/media.mp3
- [Courtney Cox on AI in Adjudication \[live from the Institute of Law & AI's Workshop on Law-Following AI\]](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/76e87fdffe9a) (2026-07-21, 43 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a4eb8b0f8a80edf85fa1af7/media.mp3
- [Founders & Founders: Nils Tracy of Authorship](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/9197542607dd) (2026-07-17, 48 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a4bd2940f098230b2abbbeb/media.mp3
- [New paths to social mobility with Joe Seddon](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/49a4e10b2fb2) (2026-07-14, 50 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a46d23c5ef16cb804b22a24/media.mp3
- [Founders & Founders: Adi Tantravahi of Cofactor](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/01df8102b235) (2026-07-10, 46 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a04a2939ea03fc75ff9620d/media.mp3
- [All Things Data Centers with Andy Masley](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/264850fddcd3) (2026-07-07, 55 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a46d199ecd1239143e995b4/media.mp3
- [Founders & Founders: Kal Clark of Zauron Labs](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/f82e8522ebfe) (2026-07-03, 51 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a049ed806eee5b01c8d7200/media.mp3
- [Lawfare Daily: 'The Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI’—A Conversation with Cory Doctorow](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/b41c72a27c7a) (2026-06-30, 57 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a4323c86c42755eb6c64e4f/media.mp3
- [Founders & Founders: Dhruv Diddi of Solo Tech](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/02aec07f18a5) (2026-06-26, 49 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a04a0150cdbf0d1ff75e184/media.mp3
- ["The God Test": AI as Cosmic Reckoning, with Robert Wright](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/6b5100e52504) (2026-06-23, 53 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a3a09fe520e6781347997f3/media.mp3
- [Justified Posteriors join Scaling Laws: Two economists and two lawyers walk into a podcast studio](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/4dd0fd4b8d8f) (2026-06-19, 77 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a32c8170eff8315217d0b1b/media.mp3
- [Explain to Shane (Tews) and Scaling Laws](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/e0e7b15b2314) (2026-06-16, 48 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a2be27f4ea0f563ff7f9d23/media.mp3
- [Lawyering on the Frontier with Janel Thamkul](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/e9124977ea18) (2026-06-12, 51 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a26e35e427484b4a4c83d9b/media.mp3
- [Radical Optionality: Governing Transformative AI, with Christoph Winter and Charlie Bullock](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/75a93a2584cc) (2026-06-09, 43 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a26e2d0427484b4a4c81287/media.mp3
- [Tom Davidson on the Importance of AI Character](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/339d053d00ce) (2026-06-05, 52 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a21b13e1ddbe06b3af069f4/media.mp3
- [Governing the Frontier with Owen Larter of Google DeepMind](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/6ffc28dab0e2) (2026-06-02, 46 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a1dab3a0a986a85da4cdcc9/media.mp3
- [Inside the Fight to Detect and Govern Synthetic Abuse with Melissa Hutchins of Certifi AI](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/42d357d9ea55) (2026-05-29, 63 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a04a4dad58f9c365b21864b/media.mp3
- [HAGS (with AI): How AI Tools Are Shaping Education with Adeel Khan and Ryan Trattner](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/a7803d6be5d4) (2026-05-26, 50 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a04eb09d58f9c365b3d7fdb/media.mp3
- [The Politics of Data Centers with VA Delegate John McAuliff](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/b70ea0254f26) (2026-05-22, 48 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/6a04977606eee5b01c89fe5c/media.mp3
- [Let's Do the Science! Talking Algorithms with Cathy O'Neill](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/c36991ea1a47) (2026-05-19, 49 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69fe2be328bc864b8b33b706/media.mp3
- [Escaping One-Size-Fits-All AI Policy with Sean Perryman](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/e9219d715097) (2026-05-15, 42 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69f959fcd9139f13fbcd5cb3/media.mp3
- [Forecasting AI's Impact on the Economy with Deger Turan, CEO of Metaculus](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/7de9067fadec) (2026-05-12, 53 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69fe19592b71c054a3ca6caa/media.mp3
- [Rapid Response: An "FDA for AI" at the White House?, with Dean Ball](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/cf2accd3156b) (2026-05-08, 34 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69fcf714051b78474ee83600/media.mp3
- [Lawfare Daily: Why AI Won’t Revolutionize Law (At Least Not Yet), with Arvind Narayanan and Justin Curl](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/247d8b606927) (2026-05-05, 45 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69f90fead9139f13fbb7c56a/media.mp3
- [An EU-perspective on America’s Approach to AI with Marietje Schaake](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/221e044d6f6b) (2026-05-01, 46 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69f2ce20eaa0279b7c941b3f/media.mp3
- [Eliminating Barriers to AI Adoption with Clarion AI's Bennett Borden](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/d5d145ecbfce) (2026-04-28, 51 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69ebc165311e6f16c9334bfb/media.mp3
- [Facts & Myths About AI's Energy Usage with Gavin McCormick](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/e0845c9dddf6) (2026-04-24, 50 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69ead11b6e5b90839a881f10/media.mp3
- [AI as Abnormal Technology? Scott Sullivan Analyzes AI in the Military Domain](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/5fa6b46d4ed7) (2026-04-21, 46 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69e2f3de6e5b90839a320a9a/media.mp3
- [Lawfare Daily: Talking About Sam Altman with Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/21b327b786b9) (2026-04-17, 50 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69e19dbe0b4baf3bf20bc9e7/media.mp3
- [Why AI Needs Independent Auditors, with Miles Brundage](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/f0469f436e3d) (2026-04-14, 54 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69ddb8ffdaa5b95957ff532b/media.mp3
- [Productivity Boom? Labor Shock? Google's Chief Economist on AI](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/a26310051406) (2026-04-07, 51 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69d482d707bc2cbfc7f47627/media.mp3
- [Abundance & AI? Nicholas Bagley Explains](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/f892846ca057) (2026-04-03, 44 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69cfbbdaf44b357ce9947edb/media.mp3
- [How To Use, Govern, And Lead On AI? Rep. Begich Points The Path Forward](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1607949880/6111230aa251) (2026-03-31, 47 min): audio https://sphinx.acast.com/p/open/s/61e878a1419a9b0013b27134/e/69cb52034bc3c0b5ce79c575/media.mp3

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.