# Ironman NEEDS A Competitive Age Group Wave!!!!

An episode of [The Triathlon Hour](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1595443343), 28 Jul 2025, 1 h 13 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2640942/episodes/19698045-ironman-needs-a-competitive-age-group-wave.mp3

Jack has a proposal that centres around the need for Ironman to create a competitive Age Group category in their races and how Race Ranger might be one of the keys to unlocking its potential. Boise 70.3 & Ironman Leeds get a quick discussion and then things you NEED to add into your training or do more of and contender or pretender is back! Patreon: We put a lot of time & energy into bringing you this podcast every week and have done for 4 years now. If you appreciate what we do, we would love your support and you can do so for less than the cost of a coffee per week on Patreon - Patreon link

## Transcript

[0:19] SPEAKER_01: And we are back for another episode of the Triathlon Hour.
[0:23] SPEAKER_01: As always, I'm joined by the best swimmer in Triathlon, Greg Harper.
[0:26] SPEAKER_01: Greg, thanks for being here.
[0:28] SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me once again, Jack.
[0:30] SPEAKER_01: And last week we had a bit of a mix up.
[0:32] SPEAKER_01: The the late and great Justin Riale, he joined us again from the Holy Gates of Heaven because Ari was away racing Iron Man Lake Placid.
[0:41] SPEAKER_01: And Ari, thank you for coming back on again a week after the race.
[0:45] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think uh if I had finished and actually become an Iron Man, I'd probably be too good for you guys and wouldn't be here.
[0:52] SPEAKER_04: But yeah, on account of my DNF, uh I'm still here.
[0:56] SPEAKER_04: So happy to be on another pod.
[0:58] SPEAKER_01: Well, speaking of that, Ari, we we had planned some things for you upon your return to the podcast, and they were too good not to play.
[1:06] SPEAKER_01: So I figured we would we would just continue what we had already planned before we saw what actually happened at Iron Man Lake Placid.
[1:14] SPEAKER_00: All right.
[1:15] SPEAKER_00: Hello, Ari, Mike Riley here, the voice of Iron Man.
[1:19] SPEAKER_00: Congratulations on finishing your Iron Man.
[1:21] SPEAKER_00: That is fantastic.
[1:23] SPEAKER_00: You set your big goal and you found your finish line.
[1:27] SPEAKER_00: And no one can ever take that away from you for the rest of your life.
[1:31] SPEAKER_00: So for me to you, Ari, you are an Iron Man.
[1:36] SPEAKER_00: Congratulations again, young man.
[1:39] SPEAKER_00: And as always, my warmest aloha.
[1:46] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you DNF'd, but thank you, Mike Riley, for sending that in the voice of Iron Man.
[1:50] SPEAKER_01: We had it pre-prepared.
[1:52] SPEAKER_01: We just assumed there's like, yeah, you might have a bad day, but we thought there's no way he's gonna DNF.
[1:58] SPEAKER_06: I have no words.
[2:00] SPEAKER_06: Just shame.
[2:01] SPEAKER_06: Thanks, Mike Riley.
[2:03] SPEAKER_05: Shame and guilt.
[2:04] SPEAKER_05: Sorry, Mike Riley.
[2:05] SPEAKER_05: Mike Riley, friend of the show.
[2:07] SPEAKER_05: Good good work, Mike.
[2:08] SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah.
[2:09] SPEAKER_01: I I'd put Mike Riley in the Bob Babbitt category.
[2:11] SPEAKER_01: Like, I think they're both pretty likely to try and have conversations with you in an elevator about your family.
[2:17] SPEAKER_01: And we know that's a no-go for Jack.
[2:20] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, shout out Mike.
[2:21] SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for doing that.
[2:22] SPEAKER_01: Uh, and sorry our boy couldn't deliver for you.
[2:24] SPEAKER_01: All right, Greg, Ari, should we jump into the big talking point of the week, the the Roth Race Ranger data?
[2:30] SPEAKER_01: We talked about a little bit with Joe Skipper during the week, but I know you boys had a few things that you wanted to kind of touch on.
[2:35] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I guess I guess kind of the first question, kind of jump right into it.
[2:39] SPEAKER_05: The first question is how much time is too much time?
[2:43] SPEAKER_05: And in my eyes, I feel like you need to we need to go race to race and kind of find like averages and kind of see how things change race to race.
[2:53] SPEAKER_05: But I'm almost thinking in terms of yo-yos, you know, that's when you get into the red and come out.
[2:58] SPEAKER_05: I mean, it seems like the average was anywhere between like twenty to thirty.
[3:02] SPEAKER_05: I mean, some guys were above that.
[3:06] SPEAKER_05: One guy had 251 yo yo-yos, Stefan.
[3:10] SPEAKER_05: Nice dog.
[3:11] SPEAKER_04: There was a lot of variation though.
[3:13] SPEAKER_04: So it was like average 30, but it's you either had 10 or 50.
[3:18] SPEAKER_04: You know, it wasn't like most people were in and around the 30 range.
[3:21] SPEAKER_04: And I guess it we're not gonna be able to go through and be like this person rode mostly solo, this person rode in a group with this person, this person, and the other people in the group had this many yo-yos, and you know, they were all around the same kind of offenders, or one person was riding, you know, egregiously illegal in the group.
[3:40] SPEAKER_04: But when I just go through the list, I have the data pulled up.
[3:43] SPEAKER_04: You know, Sam Laidlow, Jonas Schomburg, literally zero seconds.
[3:46] SPEAKER_04: They rode, I mean, they basically rode solo the entire day.
[3:49] SPEAKER_04: Jan Strautman, four seconds, like four total seconds in the red.
[3:53] SPEAKER_04: And then Vince Louie, who is like kind of a big talking point in the comments on some of the Instagram posts, was nearly 10 minutes in the red.
[4:01] SPEAKER_04: But I look, go down the list, and I see athletes that I think of as like really fair racers.
[4:09] SPEAKER_04: And it's like Fred Funk, a minute 10, Daniel Backago, a minute 45, uh, Zachary Cooper, who Jack, you and Joe were talking about on the podcast.
[4:17] SPEAKER_04: I didn't know him before, but seems like a really strong cyclist, uh, just under two minutes.
[4:21] SPEAKER_04: Joe Skipper, a minute 18.
[4:24] SPEAKER_04: Uh, these are guys who, I mean, maybe they had so little time in the red on account of having ridden a lot of the day solo, or maybe they're just uh, you know, the the fairest racers.
[4:37] SPEAKER_04: And now that this data is out, we kind of know that people will basically get away with whatever they can when the officials aren't around, right?
[4:46] SPEAKER_04: Because race ranger is a great tool, but if there are no officials around, like there's nobody to give you a penalty, there's nobody to call you on your bullshit.
[4:52] SPEAKER_04: So uh this is a pretty eye-opening piece of data.
[4:56] SPEAKER_05: That's a good marker, too.
[4:57] SPEAKER_05: Like those guys are definitely fair racers, especially like for you know, Fred Funk.
[5:01] SPEAKER_05: Like he comes from behind, he pushes power, he tries to bring things up.
[5:04] SPEAKER_05: So, I mean, if you're under that two-minute range, I feel like you're kind of like in the clear.
[5:09] SPEAKER_05: It's like, okay, cool.
[5:10] SPEAKER_05: I mean, so look at Jasper Svensson, he had 131.
[5:13] SPEAKER_05: So there was other guys.
[5:14] SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah.
[5:15] SPEAKER_05: So someone Henry Schumann drafted off Willie Hirsch for eight minutes, but like they were all riding together, and those guys are really low, but Schumann and Vince Louie were like 10 or 11 minutes.
[5:24] SPEAKER_05: And it's like, dude, you guys rode, you guys cheated, and you didn't ride fair.
[5:29] SPEAKER_05: So I just think that's super lame, especially from like people like Vince and Henry, who are like, I mean, Henry's an Olympic medalist, Vince is a world champion.
[5:37] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I just I don't like to see that.
[5:39] SPEAKER_05: I mean, you can make the whole ITU excuse, like, oh, they're not experienced at this, but it's like, I don't know.
[5:44] SPEAKER_05: I think that's kind of BS from those guys.
[5:47] SPEAKER_04: But they both are experienced.
[5:48] SPEAKER_04: They've both been racing enough long course to know the rules and be able to follow the rules.
[5:52] SPEAKER_04: And and yeah, you look at yo-yos, like Vince Louie was in the red and out of the red 40 times.
[6:00] SPEAKER_04: Uh where's Henry Schumann on this list?
[6:02] SPEAKER_04: 69 nice, nice, 69 times in and out of the red.
[6:08] SPEAKER_04: And like you can't just say, oh, it was around corners.
[6:10] SPEAKER_04: Like it's not a super straightforward pancake flat, you know, out and back course.
[6:16] SPEAKER_04: There's definitely some twists and turns on there, but that is that is egregious.
[6:21] SPEAKER_04: That is cheating.
[6:22] SPEAKER_04: Like there's no there's no excuse for that.
[6:25] SPEAKER_05: You can say some corners, but it's like Jan Stratman had three yo-yos for four seconds, right?
[6:30] SPEAKER_05: And like even Willie Hirsch had three minutes, but he had 32 yo-yos.
[6:34] SPEAKER_05: So it's like they're shorter.
[6:36] SPEAKER_05: But Vince Lee had 40 yo-yos, but it's 10 minutes.
[6:40] SPEAKER_05: So it's like you're you they're trying to push the limits like a lot, which I don't, I don't, I don't love.
[6:46] SPEAKER_05: So I feel like under two minutes, you're like really good.
[6:49] SPEAKER_05: That two to four minutes, you're kind of like, all right, you're probably doing it's kind of the average, but once you're getting like above five minutes, it's like, dude, go fuck yourself, man.
[6:59] SPEAKER_05: Like, dude.
[7:00] SPEAKER_05: Like I just I thought it was gonna be, I thought it was gonna be better.
[7:03] SPEAKER_05: Honestly, like I had more I just thought it was gonna be cleaner from some of these guys.
[7:09] SPEAKER_05: And now that I'm looking at it, I'm like, I'd rather it drop than the draft that much and have my name on this list, man.
[7:15] SPEAKER_05: And I would know.
[7:18] SPEAKER_04: I would love to see uh Justin Reales data from whatever the next race he does is.
[7:23] SPEAKER_04: Uh special shout out to Stefan Benedict.
[7:26] SPEAKER_04: 19 minutes in the red and 251 yo-yos.
[7:31] SPEAKER_04: And then uh where was it?
[7:34] SPEAKER_04: Timo Shaffeld with uh 22 minutes in the red.
[7:38] SPEAKER_04: 22-25.
[7:40] SPEAKER_04: I believe those were the two worst offenders on the day, but I mean, oh what do we think?
[7:45] SPEAKER_04: If you come in 27th and 39th, like fair play.
[7:50] SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, I guess it's like whatever.
[7:53] SPEAKER_04: A penalty is and is not gonna change your day that much.
[7:56] SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't know.
[7:58] SPEAKER_04: That doesn't bother me that much.
[8:00] SPEAKER_04: It does like Vince bothers me a fair bit, to be honest, because it's like the the top three who honestly deservedly got the medals, I'd say, like basically followed the rules to a T.
[8:17] SPEAKER_04: Like, absolutely.
[8:18] SPEAKER_04: So Vince coming in and forth, you know, Iron Man debut.
[8:21] SPEAKER_04: It's a little bit disappointing to see.
[8:23] SPEAKER_04: And um, I actually I I did prepare something that I would like to read.
[8:28] SPEAKER_04: Q music.
[8:33] SPEAKER_04: Vincent Louis, Sacreble.
[8:36] SPEAKER_04: You've come forth a challenge, Roth, only beaten by Jan Strautman, a bona fide stalwart on the European full distance circuit.
[8:44] SPEAKER_04: Jonas Schomberg, the chosen one, and by that I mean chosen by Greg.
[8:49] SPEAKER_04: And Sam Laidlow, who could become pretty good at triathlon if he decided to train more than 10 hours a week.
[8:55] SPEAKER_04: If you're going to miss a medal, there aren't many trios you'd rather have grab them ahead of you.
[9:01] SPEAKER_04: But those three played fair, with a total of four seconds in the red between all of them.
[9:07] SPEAKER_04: Whereas Vince, you spent over nine minutes illegally spaced from the rider in front of you.
[9:13] SPEAKER_04: You entered the draft zone and backed out without passing 40 times.
[9:19] SPEAKER_04: You know the rules.
[9:21] SPEAKER_04: Everyone knows the rules.
[9:23] SPEAKER_04: And there's a handy little device on the back of Henry Schumann's bike that was at one point blinking red at you for 87 seconds straight, so you couldn't have forgotten.
[9:33] SPEAKER_04: But when the cameras are off and the officials are elsewhere, you decided that the rules didn't apply to you.
[9:40] SPEAKER_04: Now, Vince, you weren't the worst offender.
[9:44] SPEAKER_04: Far from it, in fact, but you were the worst offender that was once a champion.
[9:50] SPEAKER_04: Someone who knows what it takes to win.
[9:53] SPEAKER_04: Someone with integrity.
[9:55] SPEAKER_04: Someone I respect.
[9:57] SPEAKER_04: Someone who I thought was better.
[9:59] SPEAKER_04: But what I saw in that race ranger data was simply merde.
[10:05] SPEAKER_04: I speak for the three of us here at the triathlon hour when I say Vincent, we know you can be better.
[10:11] SPEAKER_04: So, si vous play, be better.
[10:15] SPEAKER_04: Merci beaucoup.
[10:17] SPEAKER_05: Merci beaucoup.
[10:19] SPEAKER_05: Wow.
[10:20] SPEAKER_05: I I echo those statements.
[10:21] SPEAKER_05: Now I've just one follow-up question.
[10:24] SPEAKER_05: What was worse?
[10:25] SPEAKER_05: His 49er triathlon kit from the T100 or his race ranger data.
[10:32] SPEAKER_02: I mean the kit was kind of fresh.
[10:34] SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna lie, dude.
[10:35] SPEAKER_02: Like I didn't mind the kitchen.
[10:36] SPEAKER_02: He's put a lot of thought, thought into the kits.
[10:38] SPEAKER_02: They're pretty nah.
[10:40] SPEAKER_04: I think they're pretty sick.
[10:41] SPEAKER_04: I I thought his Roth setup, like with the whole with the bike and the kit, that I thought it was pretty sick.
[10:46] SPEAKER_04: You know, race ranger data aside, he was looking fresh out there.
[10:50] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, cross him off the list of people who are willing to come on the triathlon hour from now, though.
[10:54] SPEAKER_04: That's just an I'm building up quite the repertoire here.
[10:59] SPEAKER_04: How many world champions can I get blacklisted, self-blacklisted from the triathlon hour?
[11:04] SPEAKER_01: So there was a point in time where Patrick Lang and his partner came up to me, Julia, and said um that the Trithlon Hour is the only Triathlon podcast they listen to.
[11:14] SPEAKER_01: And Julia turns to me and she goes, Trust me, that's like a big deal because he doesn't listen to any triathlon stuff.
[11:20] SPEAKER_01: And now it's to the point where because of you are he not only doesn't listen, he sink he like simply hates us, and he thinks you're an idiot.
[11:27] SPEAKER_04: So him and I mean I I can't disagree with him.
[11:31] SPEAKER_04: I am just you know coming on and spewing whatever comes to my mind.
[11:35] SPEAKER_01: So Okay, speaking of Race Ranger, I want to kind of take this conversation in another direction.
[11:41] SPEAKER_01: I have a little bit of a proposal, like I haven't written up some kind of long-winded proposal that I'm gonna read out, but I have a a bit of a proposal in my head that I want to kind of nut out with you boys.
[11:52] SPEAKER_01: So if you have any questions, ask me and I'll try and come up with answers on the fly.
[11:57] SPEAKER_01: But I think that Race Ranger needs to become an age group tool as well.
[12:02] SPEAKER_01: I love it for the pro field, I think it's it's awesome.
[12:04] SPEAKER_01: I think what happened at Roth just needs to happen at all T100 and Iron Man races.
[12:08] SPEAKER_01: Like at T100 London, surely they release the Race Ranger data, surely, and then just from then they do it at every single race.
[12:15] SPEAKER_01: I know Iron Man will be a bit slower on on uptaking uh a bit of a an agenda like that, but eventually Iron Man will follow suit if there's enough if there's enough pressure.
[12:26] SPEAKER_01: I just don't think like I think Race Ranger is so valuable to the sport, and I think we've seen why with that data there.
[12:33] SPEAKER_01: But Race Ranger won't survive unless it becomes an age group tool, because they just won't be able to make enough money.
[12:39] SPEAKER_01: And so the only way that Race Ranger can become a viable business is if they start doing every age group race in the world, basically.
[12:47] SPEAKER_01: Like if they could just start doing every challenge and Iron Man and even T100 age group race, they'd they'd make enough money that they would stay around and therefore we would have it in the professional triathlon sphere as something to use as a fairness tool going on forever.
[13:01] SPEAKER_01: But without it, without Race Ranger, like think about what happens.
[13:05] SPEAKER_01: We just you know, if they if they can't make money, what what what what then?
[13:08] SPEAKER_01: They just slowly disappear and then we get back to the point where we we don't really care about fairness or have this kind of data available to us anymore, or or what are we expecting Iron Man to make their own version of it, which I just don't think they're gonna do.
[13:22] SPEAKER_01: So currently how Race Ranger get paid is they get paid like a per event fee, depending on the amount of travel and shipping required to that event.
[13:31] SPEAKER_01: And they've really only got the T100 races, um, some select Iron Man races and some select challenge races.
[13:38] SPEAKER_01: For for age group races, what that would mean is that they would do it per unit.
[13:43] SPEAKER_01: So instead of it being just a per event fee, it would be like a per per units fee, and um it would become like a big operational task for them where they'd be like, you know, flying these units all around the world and taking them in, you know, the backs of trucks to events.
[13:58] SPEAKER_01: And because of that, they would have to probably charge quite a bit, but it's worth it for the benefit of the sport, I think.
[14:03] SPEAKER_01: And I think the big like detraction from it would be like, yeah, but if you've got 3,000 people out on course, everything's just gonna be flashing red.
[14:11] SPEAKER_01: Like there's genuinely palatons out there.
[14:13] SPEAKER_01: And so I think I have a solution to that.
[14:16] SPEAKER_01: I know that Race Ranger has the capability to act as like a an everything tracker.
[14:23] SPEAKER_01: So currently we have heaps of issues with the Iron Man tracker.
[14:26] SPEAKER_01: Like, if you've ever tried to track a race, you know that some races are perfect and some races are completely flawed and it just doesn't work that well.
[14:32] SPEAKER_01: But Race Ranger can take over that.
[14:35] SPEAKER_01: So you could have kind of on the Iron Man app everything that you see from the the GPS tracking to the timer tracking can be done on Race Ranger.
[14:44] SPEAKER_01: And the beauty of it is it can actually have more data on it as well.
[14:47] SPEAKER_01: So, say if you're tracking a race on the Iron Man tracker, using Race Ranger, you can have access to lots more data.
[14:53] SPEAKER_01: Like I think there's a world where it could have like athletes' heart rate, power, all of these kind of things.
[14:58] SPEAKER_04: Oh, like the Velan CC and the in the tour that all the riders have under their saddle.
[15:02] SPEAKER_04: Exactly the same.
[15:03] SPEAKER_04: I mean it's basically a camera, but I do think it has access to other data.
[15:06] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's exactly the same as that.
[15:08] SPEAKER_01: So it could really um kind of uh revolutionize the way we track the sport and and take it from just like the bare minimum data to this whole expansive field of data for every athlete racing the race, including age groupers, because it would be on the back of every age grouper's race.
[15:26] SPEAKER_01: Now, race ranger have control of each individual unit.
[15:29] SPEAKER_01: So what I think has to happen, I don't think it can be a fairness tool for every single athlete out on course.
[15:34] SPEAKER_01: I think there's a large percentage of uh age group athletes who don't care about that.
[15:38] SPEAKER_01: And so this is the main part of my kind of proposal.
[15:42] SPEAKER_01: I think we need to keep the pro field and keep the age group fields, but I think we need a third field, which is a competitive age group field.
[15:49] SPEAKER_01: Call it what you want.
[15:50] SPEAKER_01: I think you can race in it no matter you know how old you are.
[15:53] SPEAKER_01: If you if you want to be in it, you can be in it.
[15:56] SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's a little bit of an additional cost on top, maybe it's 30, 40, 50 bucks more, I don't know what it is, um, just to de-incentivize, like you know, some person doing it who doesn't actually want to be competitive, but maybe it has a bet a bit of a better start wave, or maybe you've got to qualify to be in the competitive um competitive field at a different event by starting in the age group event or having been a previous pro, I don't know, whatever that looks like.
[16:21] SPEAKER_01: But the competitive athletes, they use their race ranger tools exactly like the pros do.
[16:26] SPEAKER_01: So everyone in that field starts together in the same wave as men and women, and then when they're out on the bike, they they they have the same interaction with their race ranger units as the pros do.
[16:37] SPEAKER_01: Now the problem with it is that they'll still see it on every athlete, but really, like, unless you're in the competitive age group way with them, that won't be too big a deal.
[16:46] SPEAKER_01: And what that does is I think there's like a real thirst from competitive age groupers to race competitively.
[16:52] SPEAKER_01: And how Iron Man doing are doing races right now, it doesn't allow for that.
[16:56] SPEAKER_01: Like it's just so confusing out there in an Iron Man course.
[17:00] SPEAKER_01: You don't know where you are in races, you don't know who you're racing against.
[17:03] SPEAKER_01: It's like it's it's not like if you're if you're honest as an age grouper, if you're wanting to be super competitive and race, you're not really getting it fulfilled in an Iron Man race at the moment.
[17:13] SPEAKER_01: But this this new wave, this competitive age group wave, would a hundred percent fulfill that desire for you.
[17:20] SPEAKER_01: And then you could also have access to Race Ranger and know that you're draft you're racing really fairly, and then all these like complaints about age group racing being draft fest goes away.
[17:29] SPEAKER_01: Because if if it's not your cup of tea and you don't want to be a competitive racer, you're just out there for self-fulfilment and to enjoy the day and to tick off a goal, then you just be in the age group field and you don't have to worry about it.
[17:39] SPEAKER_01: Your race ranger unit is just used as as a tracking and GPS um device.
[17:45] SPEAKER_01: So I think that Iron Man from 2026 should bring in those two things.
[17:50] SPEAKER_01: They should start using Race Ranger as a replacement for all of their GPS.
[17:53] SPEAKER_01: So for example, if you crash, Race Ranger will notify the medics of that on the spot because they've got that technology.
[18:00] SPEAKER_01: Um it can also set notifications sent to Iron Man and your family and that kind of thing, which is just a huge step up, I think, in terms of safety.
[18:09] SPEAKER_01: Um, I think from 2026, bring in the competitive age group field, give them access to Race Ranger, do it at every single Iron Man race and then and then use Iron Man and use Race Ranger for for all athletes as a GPS unit.
[18:23] SPEAKER_01: And that way Race Ranger can stay around, they'll be able to actually make money from the sport and will get a fairer professional triathlon sphere because they might stay around for 10, 20 years instead of just being this thing that's around for five to ten years um and then goes away because they can't make money.
[18:39] SPEAKER_04: So I have a bunch of thoughts on this.
[18:42] SPEAKER_04: Number one is I think that at the very least, if none of the things that you mentioned regarding the capabilities of Race Ranger beyond being a drafting detector or um you know having uh being able to expand the capabilities of tracking throughout any race, I think that Race Rangers should stay around and be funded for the same reason that that drug testing needs to stay around and be funded.
[19:11] SPEAKER_04: Like drug testers, like I don't know what the makeup of the companies are like, but like they can't be raking in cash.
[19:19] SPEAKER_04: You know, it's funded by Iron Man and T100 and World Triathlon because it's uh it's a necessary good to ensure fairness in professional racing.
[19:31] SPEAKER_04: And I don't know how big of an operation Race Ranger is.
[19:35] SPEAKER_04: You seem to have a little bit more uh info than we do on like, you know, are they losing shitloads of money at the moment, or is T100 and Iron Man kind of just keeping them profitable?
[19:45] SPEAKER_04: But I think thinking that they won't stay around just because it's not a money-making machine, like I would like to think that all the pros are vocal enough about how good it is it to have in the races now these past few years, that you know, we talk about Scott DeRoo kind of listening to the needs of the pros and well and age groupers, just the needs of the people competing at the race.
[20:09] SPEAKER_01: The problem with that is that with with the doping example, the anti the anti-doping example, is that they are not there's not a single anti-doping agency that's just employed by triathlon.
[20:20] SPEAKER_01: They they so the ITA, for example, they do a whole bunch of sports and are paid by a whole bunch of sports.
[20:26] SPEAKER_04: So an Iron Man just like kind of outsourced, they're just like one of their clients, basically.
[20:30] SPEAKER_01: They're just one of their clients, exactly.
[20:32] SPEAKER_01: Whereas with Race Ranger, Triathlon is their only business.
[20:35] SPEAKER_04: And you don't think it's enough to stay around Iron Man and T100 and not without age group racing.
[20:40] SPEAKER_01: No, they they won't be able to survive.
[20:42] SPEAKER_01: So right now they they survive off investor funding, and then the small bits of money they get from T100 and Challenge and Iron Man.
[20:51] SPEAKER_04: So they have to expand, like they have to, basically.
[20:54] SPEAKER_04: And this is a known fact.
[20:55] SPEAKER_04: Well, and so then my second thing is I love the competitive age group idea because it's uh there is a huge divide between people who just go do an Iron Man or a 70.3 to finish and kind of you know improve their own lives, and then uh kind of the the you know, die hard fans of people whose life basically revolves around it, who go in there to race and get a world championship slot and try to win their age group.
[21:22] SPEAKER_04: Um, and a lot of people who have dreams of of qualifying for a pro card.
[21:26] SPEAKER_04: So there's definitely uh a dichotomy there between you know, it seems like it really is only two types of people who are racing in the non-pro field.
[21:35] SPEAKER_04: So I love the idea of having a competitive age group field.
[21:38] SPEAKER_01: It fixes another problem with the men age groupers interfering with women professionals.
[21:43] SPEAKER_04: Well, how would you how where would you start them?
[21:46] SPEAKER_01: Well, you would start them ten minutes behind the pro women, in my opinion.
[21:49] SPEAKER_01: So this this is how the I've thought about this, like this is how the wave starts would go.
[21:53] SPEAKER_01: So it would go pro men, and then ideally 10 minutes, but if you want to do five, fine, as long as the ratio Has race ranger, and we can identify the men who are getting involved in the women's race.
[22:03] SPEAKER_01: So it's pro men five to ten minutes, pro women ten minutes.
[22:08] SPEAKER_01: Absolutely like there's no way around that.
[22:10] SPEAKER_01: That's got to be ten minutes, if not fifteen.
[22:13] SPEAKER_01: And then you just start from there, you just start what age group waves almost straight away, like five five minutes absolute maximum after the competitive age group field, I think.
[22:23] SPEAKER_01: Um and then that way the competitive age groupers who we're seeing get mixed up in the f for the pro-female race, they're suddenly now identifiable people because they've got the race range of units on them.
[22:34] SPEAKER_01: And the age groupers are they're going to be probably too far back to affect anything meaningful in the women's pro race.
[22:39] SPEAKER_01: So they won't catch up, or if they do, it'll be extremely late and and not an issue, or at the very back of the pro-female race, which, you know, maybe is still not ideal, but maybe is unavoidable.
[22:49] SPEAKER_01: So I think that's another problem it fixes.
[22:51] SPEAKER_04: And what about officials?
[22:52] SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, because you need uh you still need officials on course to police the competitive age group field more than there is currently.
[23:02] SPEAKER_04: Because I mean that's a huge complaint, is yeah, it is a draft fest.
[23:04] SPEAKER_04: And there are officials back there, but I definitely way fewer than they dedicate to the pro field.
[23:09] SPEAKER_04: Is it the kind of thing where you do police it during the race, or maybe you know, once the data comes out, you can, you know, your uh result or your world championship qualification can change retroactively, you know.
[23:21] SPEAKER_04: Say if you've drafted for more than five minutes or something or other.
[23:25] SPEAKER_01: In an ideal world, you would have as many technical officials out on course as possible without it being a thing that affects safety.
[23:33] SPEAKER_01: The issue is it's really hard to find people who want to volunteer for that job.
[23:36] SPEAKER_01: That's that kind of point one.
[23:38] SPEAKER_01: But I still think like it you need to be having eyes on the on the field so that penalties are given at the time.
[23:44] SPEAKER_01: In an ideal world, the more money Race Ranger make, the better their technology gets.
[23:49] SPEAKER_01: And this all just gets automated, where it's all going back to a central hub at the race, and there's a head referee or maybe a group of referees at every race, and everything's on an iPad.
[23:59] SPEAKER_01: They literally have, like, for example, let's say us three were in a competitive age group race.
[24:03] SPEAKER_01: So they have Greg Greg Harper, DNF Clow, and Jack Kelly.
[24:07] SPEAKER_01: And we're in this age group competitive age group race, and it just goes, okay, there's a there's the like the signal comes through, yep, Jack's just he stayed in Ari's draft zone for whatever the agreed upon time is that uh that a penalty should be given.
[24:23] SPEAKER_01: Yep, that's a penalty.
[24:24] SPEAKER_01: And then there's a big board in T2, a big like you know, electronic board where it's all just going back to and it says Ari Clow, three minute drafting penalty, T2, and you know you have to go and start.
[24:34] SPEAKER_04: And that's my race day over.
[24:36] SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
[24:36] SPEAKER_01: Like that's clearly the future of this, in my opinion, is this has to be automated at eventually, or else it, you know, or else it like we're not taking advantage of the technology available to us.
[24:47] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I think it's still the it still deters people, I think.
[24:50] SPEAKER_05: I mean, actually, after seeing the challenge Roth data, I'm like, oh, maybe it doesn't deter people as much.
[24:55] SPEAKER_05: But you know, if if they start publishing data and say they haven't gotten to this automated point, but we're like six months in, there's lots of races, and you know, you see competitors, you know, taking advantage of the rules, or even aid troopers, like they release some of the data and you know you're competitive aid troopers, like maybe you all speak up a bit, or you know, you're kind of throwing shade at this person on social media, like whatever it needs to be done.
[25:17] SPEAKER_05: Like, I I don't think like you need to like well, actually, we did just talk shit on other pros on this podcast, but like there's a balance, right?
[25:26] SPEAKER_05: Like, I don't know, we're not trying to be mean to people all the like that's not how it's about, but like holding people accountable.
[25:32] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, unless it's funny, but holding people accountable is also important too.
[25:36] SPEAKER_05: So the threat of data being out there where you're shown as a cheater, even if there's no official on course, I think would help a competitive age group field.
[25:44] SPEAKER_05: Now, like Jack says, getting to a point where it's automated is great.
[25:48] SPEAKER_05: And you know, competitive age group fields do exist in some races, which is which is cool.
[25:53] SPEAKER_05: I don't know about in Australia, but in the States, there are, you know, there's like Olympic distance races with with pro races and then competitive age group and then regular age group.
[26:01] SPEAKER_05: So um I think that's a really unique, not even unique, just a smart thing to do because, like you said, the the difference between some of the people racing and the age group feel is massive, right?
[26:13] SPEAKER_01: There's a whole group of people crying out for it, right?
[26:16] SPEAKER_05: 100%.
[26:17] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think that's a super good idea.
[26:19] SPEAKER_05: And honestly, I had some questions about like oh, is there would Iron Man ever do it?
[26:25] SPEAKER_05: Like, does that mean less people on their race courses?
[26:28] SPEAKER_05: You know, right?
[26:28] SPEAKER_05: Because essentially you you just can't have 2,500 people and all space 12 meters apart and not people cheating.
[26:36] SPEAKER_05: But if if 2,000 of them, it's not really that important, which I kind of agree that it's not, they can make their money.
[26:44] SPEAKER_05: They get the 500 age groupers who are really into it, who can race more fair, and I think that kind of solves that problem.
[26:51] SPEAKER_05: And the one thing I thought was like, now should it be doing more of the pro races, like all the Iron Man pro races, before we kind of dabble into the age group field?
[27:01] SPEAKER_05: But you know, maybe we have to do it all at the same time, like he said, because we just want Race Ranger to be around um having race with Range Ranger and going back to racing without it, it just kind of sucks.
[27:12] SPEAKER_05: Like once you have that, it's just it's just so much better and cleaner to race with.
[27:17] SPEAKER_05: Um and I think it's easier for officials too.
[27:19] SPEAKER_01: And Scott DeRue has shown that he wants to do the right thing by the athletes in the game.
[27:24] SPEAKER_01: He really does.
[27:25] SPEAKER_01: Like, that is becoming his legacy, in my opinion, and and I love it.
[27:29] SPEAKER_01: Uh so why wouldn't he do this?
[27:31] SPEAKER_01: That the only reason you wouldn't do this is uh either A, it's too expensive, or B, they're in bed with another company that kind of do the tracking already and they don't want to, you know, there's some relationship there that they can't screw over.
[27:46] SPEAKER_01: They're the only two reasons.
[27:48] SPEAKER_01: So as long as it's not like an exorbitant amount of money that's uh completely unrealistic by Race Ranger, you know, Iron's a big business, they're a multi-billion dollar business, they're one of the biggest event companies in the world.
[27:59] SPEAKER_01: They're making cash, they can afford to invest in things like this for the betterment of their product.
[28:04] SPEAKER_01: So they've just as long as they're not in bed with some other company in the tracking world already, which I'm not actually aware of.
[28:09] SPEAKER_01: Maybe they are, maybe they've got a long-term deal.
[28:12] SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
[28:12] SPEAKER_01: But if that doesn't exist, then there's no real reason they couldn't just start doing this.
[28:16] SPEAKER_01: You know, it's simple.
[28:17] SPEAKER_05: I'll say one thing on that.
[28:18] SPEAKER_05: The GPS trackers they give the pros chafe your back.
[28:21] SPEAKER_05: Oh, they're bad.
[28:22] SPEAKER_05: It's like we we need to move away from that.
[28:24] SPEAKER_05: And you know, they have stuff in the tour and stuff.
[28:26] SPEAKER_05: I don't know what what what's going on there, but like I had scabs on my back.
[28:31] SPEAKER_05: I've seen it bad from people.
[28:33] SPEAKER_05: So we need to move away from that.
[28:35] SPEAKER_05: We need to And it sucks.
[28:36] SPEAKER_05: Having it with Race Ranger seamless in the way.
[28:39] SPEAKER_01: It just it feels Yeah, and it doesn't work all the time.
[28:41] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[28:42] SPEAKER_05: This solves like this random little problem that only a few pros are facing, but it's pretty awful.
[28:47] SPEAKER_05: Like, there's already chafing involved in the sport.
[28:49] SPEAKER_05: Like now we're putting something on our bodies to like chafe more.
[28:51] SPEAKER_05: Like, what are we doing here?
[28:53] SPEAKER_05: Like, I already get in the shower and my balls are in the dream, maybe.
[28:56] SPEAKER_01: And Race Ranger is super simple.
[28:58] SPEAKER_01: Like, pros are already putting Race Ranger on their own bikes and then just Race Ranger come and check it.
[29:03] SPEAKER_01: So, what what could happen is part of your like pack, you would just get a Race Ranger unit and as an age group, and you just put it onto your bike.
[29:10] SPEAKER_01: Like it's that simple.
[29:11] SPEAKER_01: And then Race Ranger just would have people come through and just check it at T2.
[29:16] SPEAKER_01: So once transition uh one is closed, Race Ranger just come through and they check it all.
[29:21] SPEAKER_01: They just have employees there, make sure everyone's done it right.
[29:23] SPEAKER_01: If they haven't, they quickly fix it.
[29:25] SPEAKER_01: But it's such a simple, like it's such a simple solution to a whole heap of issues that we're having, I think.
[29:30] SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, Scott, you get to you get to appease people who aren't quite good enough or are maybe too old and want to race competitively but can't race professionally.
[29:40] SPEAKER_01: Now we have a field for them.
[29:42] SPEAKER_01: Everyone wants fair racing in that field.
[29:44] SPEAKER_01: This this this fixes that the pros want fair racing and they want race ranger and they want 20-meter draft zones, by the way.
[29:51] SPEAKER_01: This fixes that.
[29:52] SPEAKER_01: And then the whole other bunch of thousands of and thousands of age groupers who don't want it, they just use it as a GPS and tracking unit.
[29:59] SPEAKER_01: They already, they already have that through the timing chips, they already, but but then there's no need for them either.
[30:04] SPEAKER_01: Like it just fixes so many problems, I think.
[30:07] SPEAKER_04: Speaking of the tracker, 70.3 Boise, it sucked.
[30:12] SPEAKER_04: The tracker could not tell what was going on.
[30:14] SPEAKER_04: It's not a huge race.
[30:15] SPEAKER_04: It's you know, small, well, not small, it's a standard North American circuit 70.3, but it's extremely noteworthy because our boys, Apoconda and LinkedIn, went one and three and uh spent a good portion of the race off the front.
[30:30] SPEAKER_04: Although Justin did say that he felt terrible and didn't take a poll after 20 miles, and Apple led the entire thing.
[30:35] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, shout out to Apo, uh, regular co-host of this winning uh Iron Man 70.3 Boise in really pretty dominant fashion.
[30:43] SPEAKER_01: Like it's kind of the Apo from 2016.
[30:46] SPEAKER_01: He's back.
[30:47] SPEAKER_01: Contender?
[30:48] SPEAKER_01: Pretender?
[30:48] SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
[30:50] SPEAKER_01: Are we doing contender or pretender this week, Greg?
[30:52] SPEAKER_05: Of course not.
[30:53] SPEAKER_05: Everyone was just like messaging me, like, oh my god, that was so good.
[30:56] SPEAKER_05: It wasn't hard to listen to at all.
[30:58] SPEAKER_05: Like, we want it back, we want it back.
[31:00] SPEAKER_05: So obviously we'll be doing it in a few minutes here.
[31:04] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, it's a that's the second 70.3 win of the year.
[31:07] SPEAKER_04: There's not that many dudes who are just winning multiple North American 70.3s.
[31:12] SPEAKER_04: And say what you want about the North American circuit.
[31:14] SPEAKER_04: I know it's there, there's there's no like real competition.
[31:18] SPEAKER_04: It's not as deep as the European circuit.
[31:21] SPEAKER_04: It's it's just not.
[31:23] SPEAKER_04: But it's pretty good at the top.
[31:25] SPEAKER_04: It's very, very solid at the top.
[31:28] SPEAKER_04: And you know, you want to list off the names of people who can win one, but you know, let alone multiple North American 70.3s.
[31:35] SPEAKER_04: It's like San Long, Trevor Foley, Lionel Sanders, uh, you know, maybe Jackson Laundrie when he's like in really good form.
[31:45] SPEAKER_04: And am I missing any names who are like, you know, if they're if they're on the list, it's gonna be one of those guys.
[31:52] SPEAKER_01: Maybe Jason West, did you say him?
[31:53] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Jason West.
[31:54] SPEAKER_04: He's been doing a lot more T100, but yeah, for him, but even Jason West is like you know, he wasn't even on the podium at or no, he was third at Chattanooga, but um it's uh good performances by Apo.
[32:08] SPEAKER_04: I mean, I I assume he's he's doing 70.3 worlds.
[32:11] SPEAKER_04: I don't is he going to knees?
[32:13] SPEAKER_01: He hasn't won two Iron Man 70.3 since 2019 in a year.
[32:18] SPEAKER_01: Like, think about that.
[32:19] SPEAKER_01: That's a huge break for someone of his class.
[32:21] SPEAKER_01: Like he's come fourth and fifth and sixth at the 70.3 world championships.
[32:25] SPEAKER_01: At one point, he was a real contender to to win these big races, and then he kind of just you know, he just wasn't the same guy for a few years, and yeah, so I think that's a big kind of milestone for him.
[32:35] SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's it's a very weak field for a professional race.
[32:38] SPEAKER_01: Like a 76 strength of field is is quite low.
[32:41] SPEAKER_01: And you got like, you know, Apo won it, Jacko Laundry came second, riale came third, Matthew Sharp came fourth, Jason Paul came fifth.
[32:50] SPEAKER_01: Like it does, it drops off quite a bit after the kind of top two or even kind of top three or four.
[32:56] SPEAKER_01: Um but still I doubt Justin.
[32:59] SPEAKER_05: Oh, the top two, it's literally a nosedive.
[33:02] SPEAKER_05: Like, I mean, why do they even race?
[33:05] SPEAKER_04: Like there was absolutely no life in that field from third onwards.
[33:11] SPEAKER_01: Uh Justin is actually becoming a real factor at the front of North American 70.3 races.
[33:16] SPEAKER_01: I'd love to see him go and do it at like a European race.
[33:18] SPEAKER_01: I just want to see it.
[33:19] SPEAKER_01: I think he's got the kind of racing that can get him to the front of those races at least.
[33:22] SPEAKER_01: Um, so shout out Justin as well.
[33:24] SPEAKER_01: Um, the women's race was quite a bit a bit stronger.
[33:27] SPEAKER_01: Like I think it had an 82 strength of field, and Paula Finlay just dominated as she always does in these North American 70.3.
[33:34] SPEAKER_01: She's almost unbeatable at him, really, isn't she, isn't she?
[33:37] SPEAKER_05: I mean, it it shows because she just wins everyone that's like she won St.
[33:42] SPEAKER_05: George.
[33:42] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Oceanside, Oceanside, St.
[33:44] SPEAKER_04: George.
[33:45] SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
[33:45] SPEAKER_05: And those are all the big ones.
[33:47] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, pretty much.
[33:48] SPEAKER_05: But like you said, the the depth of she's like the only real consistent 70.3 like world-class performer on the North American circuit.
[33:57] SPEAKER_05: I mean, obviously there's others, but like no one wins like Paula wins.
[34:01] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[34:01] SPEAKER_01: If if she's there, like Taylor Nib doesn't really do any of these races anymore.
[34:05] SPEAKER_01: And there's like unless a Cat Matthews or a Laura Phillip or a Taylor Nib or you know Julie Duron show up, who's beaten?
[34:12] SPEAKER_01: Who's beaten Paula?
[34:12] SPEAKER_04: But that's not North American circuit, you know.
[34:14] SPEAKER_04: That's what I'm saying.
[34:15] SPEAKER_04: That's like that's like saying if Yellow Geans showed up to 70.3 Boise.
[34:19] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but that's what I'm saying.
[34:20] SPEAKER_01: Unless they show up, who's beaten Paula?
[34:23] SPEAKER_01: Like you you if you're in North America, you kind of got to avoid races Paula's gonna do in a way if you want to win them.
[34:28] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, oh, 100%.
[34:30] SPEAKER_05: Fifth place was 13 minutes back.
[34:32] SPEAKER_05: Like she won by five minutes.
[34:35] SPEAKER_05: Third place was almost nine minutes back.
[34:37] SPEAKER_05: I mean, she like just dominates these races.
[34:40] SPEAKER_05: Um and you know, there's there's other good people in the field too.
[34:43] SPEAKER_05: Um, yeah, so kudos to Paula.
[34:46] SPEAKER_05: Another, another win.
[34:47] SPEAKER_05: It must feel good too.
[34:48] SPEAKER_05: Like, I mean it's smart, and we talked about this before.
[34:50] SPEAKER_05: People who do T100, but you know, they want to come back and race Iron Man, they want to get those wins for their for their sponsors, they want to feel what it's like too.
[34:58] SPEAKER_05: So I I think you know, these wins for Paula this year could, you know, pay off at the big races at the end of the year and maybe kind of keeps her confidence up, you know, because it's hard to go and get sixth place a lot, I would imagine.
[35:09] SPEAKER_05: I mean, I it's hard for me to get 15th place all the time.
[35:12] SPEAKER_05: So I, you know, it's like I I mean I don't I don't even know what winning feels like.
[35:16] SPEAKER_05: But yeah, I think you know, Paula sneaks onto the podium or does really well at 70.3 worlds, like that wouldn't be a surprise at all.
[35:23] SPEAKER_01: And we saw Sam Laidlow completely dominate Iron Man leads as well on the weekend.
[35:27] SPEAKER_01: He won by about a gazillion minutes and he just rode off the front of the race and did whatever he wanted only a few weeks after absolutely dominating Challenge Roth, and just you know, a handful of weeks before he's got to go and try and win the Iron Man World Championships in Nice.
[35:40] SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's pretty crazy, this Sam Laidlow story.
[35:43] SPEAKER_01: Like, let's actually let's just think about this for a little bit.
[35:46] SPEAKER_01: So the narrative is that Sam had some unexplained sickness pretty much since Kona.
[35:51] SPEAKER_01: No one knows, he doesn't know, and he's just been struggling with it, barely trained, finally got a little bit of health, did a few weeks of training, comes and dominates everyone at Roth, like dominates off the front by himself, and then has a couple of weeks rest and then dominates Iron Man leads off the front by himself.
[36:09] SPEAKER_04: Just look like Well, look, uh let's talk about the rest of the podium.
[36:12] SPEAKER_04: Shout out Harry Palmer in third.
[36:14] SPEAKER_04: I never heard of the guy in second.
[36:16] SPEAKER_05: That's fair.
[36:17] SPEAKER_04: Do we do we have any info on him?
[36:18] SPEAKER_04: Like, does he have other like uh sort of under under the radar results that are like really, really good?
[36:23] SPEAKER_05: He only got outbiked by four minutes from from Laidlow on a really tough course.
[36:28] SPEAKER_04: I mean, he must be super, super strong, yeah.
[36:30] SPEAKER_01: This performance surprised me.
[36:33] SPEAKER_01: Um from what I don't even know how to say his last name, but it's Nathan, it's Nathan Gerber.
[36:38] SPEAKER_01: I've I I personally had only I'd seen his name, but I've never like enough to like go, who is that guy?
[36:44] SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, it surprised me.
[36:47] SPEAKER_01: I I know he had a decent ride at um what was it?
[36:51] SPEAKER_01: Gisole, Gisolo ear earlier in the year, the Italian 7.3 that and the Batados Smash Fest.
[36:59] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, where he won and Cameron Main was in a run battle with him.
[37:02] SPEAKER_01: I remember him there, and yeah, Lacourt ran like 106.
[37:05] SPEAKER_01: I think he had one of the fastest rides that day, and that's when I kind of saw his name, was like, oh, who's this guy?
[37:10] SPEAKER_01: But apart from that, yeah, I don't I don't really know him.
[37:13] SPEAKER_01: I know he's won Alp Duez in the past, but I don't know anything about him.
[37:17] SPEAKER_01: So for him to ride that well compared to Sam Lalo is an incredibly impressive performance.
[37:22] SPEAKER_04: I mean Kieran Lenders was fourth.
[37:23] SPEAKER_04: Like Kieran, I mean he's legit seventh at Connor.
[37:26] SPEAKER_04: Is he seventh at Connor?
[37:28] SPEAKER_01: Well, Harry Palmer's the big one.
[37:30] SPEAKER_01: Harry Palmer's legit now.
[37:31] SPEAKER_01: Like Harry Palmer is legit one of the best in the world, top ten at 70.3 world champs, just won Swansea for for the second time in a row.
[37:38] SPEAKER_01: Like Harry Palmer's legit.
[37:40] SPEAKER_01: And Sam just rode 10 minutes into him and then runs seven minutes into him and you know you know comes out of the water in front 40, 45 seconds ahead of him.
[37:49] SPEAKER_01: Like it's a like Harry Palmer's not just this guy on YouTube who's no good.
[37:53] SPEAKER_01: Like Harry Palmer is world class, I reckon, in my opinion.
[37:57] SPEAKER_01: Oh, God, that was such another shot at me.
[37:59] SPEAKER_01: God damn it.
[38:00] SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm overrating Harry Palmer, but I think he's so good.
[38:03] SPEAKER_04: No, I think Harry is is that good at 70.3.
[38:07] SPEAKER_04: I mean, eighth at 70.3 world.
[38:08] SPEAKER_04: I just he hasn't shown it.
[38:11] SPEAKER_04: And maybe this performance is that.
[38:13] SPEAKER_04: It's just it's just really hard to tell from like the other names on the list.
[38:18] SPEAKER_04: You know, like Kieran Lenders was I I think he was seventh at Kona.
[38:22] SPEAKER_04: I didn't get any confirmation on that.
[38:23] SPEAKER_04: But like I, you know, maybe he's uh really good in the heat, uh, you know, peak peaks really well for Kona kind of guy.
[38:32] SPEAKER_04: Um, or maybe this is Harry's coming out party.
[38:34] SPEAKER_04: But so it's still like we talked about Roth, and it seems like it's a pretty good performance for Laidlow, but kind of all the big hitters were at Frankfurt.
[38:44] SPEAKER_04: So, you know, and now it's like it seems like it's a pretty good performance, putting a lot of time into Harry Palmer, who's legit, and Kieran Linders, who's legit, but uh, you know, again, hard to tell.
[38:55] SPEAKER_04: Like, how where is your confidence on Sam Laidlow going into Nice in what do we have?
[39:00] SPEAKER_04: Eight weeks?
[39:01] SPEAKER_01: Oh, for me it's high.
[39:02] SPEAKER_01: For me, it's like I just I I can see him winning.
[39:06] SPEAKER_01: Well, like you'd I think you'd be crazy to think that he can't win Nice.
[39:09] SPEAKER_01: 100%.
[39:10] SPEAKER_04: Not that he can't, uh you know, uh, can for sure, and probably will I I mean I can't see him coming into T2 uh gapped by anybody, you know, if not with a lead.
[39:23] SPEAKER_04: But I don't know, there's there's a lot of really, really, really good guys who he has not raced.
[39:30] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just think on that course with how he rides, I can see a world where him and Jonas Schomberg are just off the front of the race.
[39:36] SPEAKER_04: And dropping Martin Van Riel.
[39:37] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or Martin's there and hanging on.
[39:39] SPEAKER_01: Like but but I can see a world where Jonas and Sam just smash it out of out of like T T1.
[39:46] SPEAKER_01: Like the course is hard from the start.
[39:48] SPEAKER_01: You get this like kind of easy section out past the airport, out into you know, but once you're into those hills, like it's just on the gas for like the next 90k.
[39:58] SPEAKER_01: And I can just see him and Jonas at like 100-110k into this bike, having like a five-six minute lead.
[40:04] SPEAKER_01: I really can.
[40:05] SPEAKER_05: Three Ironmans 12 weeks, that's the only like thing I'm thinking about.
[40:10] SPEAKER_05: But I mean, I'm the amount of soreness I'll find from a 70.3 sometimes, maybe that my coach doesn't prepare me well enough for him.
[40:18] SPEAKER_05: Um but to do that and like race at your best seems like a lot, but I this day and age with some of these athletes, it's like they just can back up Iron Man.
[40:27] SPEAKER_05: So we saw it with Marquat and you know, Cans and Placid.
[40:31] SPEAKER_05: I it's crazy, man.
[40:33] SPEAKER_05: So that's my only like uh that's a bit much, but I mean he's the world champ, and it's his bread and butter course.
[40:40] SPEAKER_05: So I think Jack's right.
[40:42] SPEAKER_05: Like you can't you there's no way you can discount him, and no one's no one's gonna discount him.
[40:47] SPEAKER_01: I don't think he went to the wallet leads either.
[40:49] SPEAKER_01: I think he won it easy.
[40:50] SPEAKER_01: I I guarantee he came out of this like he'll be sore and whatever, but I don't think he went you know past eight eight out of ten kind of effort all day.
[40:58] SPEAKER_01: Maybe for periods on the bike to get the lead, he went pretty hard, but I bet you he packed it in a bit for the run.
[41:03] SPEAKER_01: I I reckon he left five or six minutes out there.
[41:05] SPEAKER_05: Well, two two forty-one, I mean, he's gonna have to have his best run of his life, I think, to win Nice, though.
[41:12] SPEAKER_05: You know, don't you think he's gonna be need to be in that like 235 range to win, maybe faster?
[41:18] SPEAKER_01: I reckon he'll come into T2 with a lead and he'll run 235 or 236.
[41:23] SPEAKER_01: So if you if you I I just think if you want to beat Sam Lalo at Nice, you're gonna have to either be with him into T2 and be prepared to run low 230s, or you're gonna have to run like say Christian.
[41:33] SPEAKER_01: Let's say Christian comes in with like a six or seven minute you know deficit to him.
[41:37] SPEAKER_01: Well, have fun.
[41:38] SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have to run 228 to beat him.
[41:40] SPEAKER_01: That's that's just my that's how I see things going.
[41:42] SPEAKER_05: Christian, Gustav, and Martin all come off together six minutes down.
[41:47] SPEAKER_05: I mean, I don't think Martin would, but yeah, we'll see.
[41:49] SPEAKER_04: If they came off six minutes down from Laidlow, I I think one of those three would win, to be honest.
[41:54] SPEAKER_04: But the one thing I'll say on this is has Ladlow ever raced well when his stock is high?
[42:03] SPEAKER_01: I would argue his stock isn't that high right now.
[42:05] SPEAKER_01: He just won leads and Roth went pretty under the radar, hasn't been doing T100, didn't do Frankfurt, hasn't won a big 70.3.
[42:12] SPEAKER_01: I reckon he is like we're bringing attention to it, but I reckon he is, apart from Roth, he's kind of floating pretty under the radar this year compared to what he has in the past.
[42:21] SPEAKER_01: You think we're buying low?
[42:23] SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's a world champion, like he stocks pretty high all the time now when he's at a race.
[42:27] SPEAKER_04: But that's not true, like going into Roth.
[42:30] SPEAKER_04: Nobody thought, like, nobody was paying attention to him.
[42:33] SPEAKER_04: But that's that's all I'll say is he seems to go really, really well when there's nobody betting on him, and he's kind of had a rough lead up, and then he seems to not go as well when he's had a smooth bit.
[42:48] SPEAKER_05: Rough lead up, in quotes.
[42:50] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, was it it's also just crazy.
[42:53] SPEAKER_01: Sam Laidlow was just a hundred percent the favorite for Roth.
[42:56] SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent.
[42:56] SPEAKER_04: Hindsight's 2020.
[42:58] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[42:58] SPEAKER_01: I was messaging Fred before the race, and and we were talking about how he's just gonna go right off the front and win it by as much as he wants.
[43:04] SPEAKER_01: Like everyone knew that Laidlow was gonna win at Roth, and he did.
[43:07] SPEAKER_01: He's went like he's just a step above a field like that.
[43:10] SPEAKER_01: He's the defending champ at the Iron Man World Champs in Nice.
[43:13] SPEAKER_01: Like, do you remember what he did here last time?
[43:16] SPEAKER_01: He dominated it, completely dominated it.
[43:19] SPEAKER_05: All right.
[43:20] SPEAKER_05: Well, I guess we're gonna get in some random like questions, maybe a little more applicable for some of our audience.
[43:26] SPEAKER_05: So, you know, I coach a fair number of age groupers, and I've wrestled with this question myself.
[43:31] SPEAKER_05: Is there like running or cycling efforts that are essentially too easy and not beneficial for someone, say who's been in the sport for a few years, and maybe does that differ between the two sports?
[43:42] SPEAKER_05: I feel like Ari's gonna be like, well, the tendon resiliency of running, like obviously putting in some miles at you know, if you if you can run a five minute mile and a 5k and running eight minute miles is very slow uh comparatively, but that might still build up tendon resistancy.
[43:58] SPEAKER_05: But is a hundred hundred and fifty watts?
[44:00] SPEAKER_05: That's like a waste of time if your threshold's, you know, 300 or something like that.
[44:04] SPEAKER_05: Um kind of a question I still have and wrestle with sometimes.
[44:07] SPEAKER_05: And I'm curious to hear you guys' thoughts.
[44:10] SPEAKER_04: Well, I I'd actually like to uh I anticipating Jack that you'll you'll come in and give your opinion afterwards.
[44:18] SPEAKER_04: Because uh Jack, you've coached me for uh it's been like two years at this point.
[44:22] SPEAKER_04: My cycling was was shit.
[44:26] SPEAKER_04: Like I think I have a good natural engine, but when we started working together, I was I was straight up terrible.
[44:33] SPEAKER_04: I'd been coaching myself for a while and I was just like inconsistent.
[44:37] SPEAKER_04: Um and in the beginning, going out and riding an hour, 90 minutes, two hours at 150 watts did have benefit because it was better than nothing, which is what I was often often doing.
[44:53] SPEAKER_04: So it was super, super important.
[44:55] SPEAKER_04: And look, I had been running for over a decade at that point.
[44:58] SPEAKER_04: You know, I had been in the sport for a while, but what I lacked was consistency, so you know, and that was my uh specific uh sort of limiter in my performance.
[45:09] SPEAKER_04: So there was huge benefit in just going out a couple times a week.
[45:13] SPEAKER_04: And if I rode, if I needed to ride 150 watts and I was super fatigued, absolutely there was benefit.
[45:19] SPEAKER_04: Fast forward two years later, I would say there is basically no benefit for me going out and riding 150 watts because I'm a different athlete now and I've I've progressed a lot.
[45:31] SPEAKER_04: So I think it depends a lot, you know, where you are in your progression, uh, what kind of athlete you are, what are you training for, uh, how consistent have you been for a number of weeks, months, or years.
[45:44] SPEAKER_04: And yeah, it just depends.
[45:47] SPEAKER_04: Like sometimes it will be necessary, um, but then sometimes you're probably better off doing nothing.
[45:54] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think there's a couple of things here.
[45:56] SPEAKER_01: So how easy is too easy, and is there a point where it's too easy that you shouldn't do it?
[46:01] SPEAKER_01: I think if you zoom out and go, okay, all you're gonna do for the next two years is train really easy on the bike and the run.
[46:08] SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna do any sessions, you're just gonna do everything, you know, super easy on the bike, super easy jogs running.
[46:14] SPEAKER_01: Uh or you're gonna do nothing.
[46:16] SPEAKER_01: After those two years, which person is in a better position?
[46:20] SPEAKER_01: Uh the person who does nothing or the person who just does easy stuff?
[46:23] SPEAKER_05: The easy, obviously.
[46:25] SPEAKER_05: Uh option two.
[46:26] SPEAKER_05: Well, and that would be really easy in this case, right?
[46:29] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[46:29] SPEAKER_05: You you could even walk, right?
[46:30] SPEAKER_05: I mean, obviously walking would be you'd be in a better spot, right?
[46:34] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
[46:35] SPEAKER_01: Which shows that physiologically there has to be some benefit to doing things easy, right?
[46:39] SPEAKER_01: Now, the question differs when you go, well, I'm trying to peak for a race, or I'm trying to be my absolute best.
[46:46] SPEAKER_01: Is there a point where just doing everything too easy is not going to get going to get me to be my best?
[46:52] SPEAKER_01: Well, of course.
[46:53] SPEAKER_01: And is there a point where in amongst all of my training, should I be doing some of this stuff that I'm doing easy?
[46:59] SPEAKER_01: A bit harder, quite a lot harder, very hard.
[47:02] SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, for sure.
[47:03] SPEAKER_01: This is where like having a structured program with a coach who knows their shit is really important, in my opinion.
[47:09] SPEAKER_01: But I think the big area for age groupers is the bike.
[47:14] SPEAKER_01: Every age grouper that I know, pretty much, can ride as hard as they want on the bike because they're so limited by time.
[47:21] SPEAKER_01: Like they're not going to go out there and ride 20 hours a week and smack themselves up and be drained.
[47:26] SPEAKER_01: Like most age groupers can get out there for between like five and fifteen hours a week.
[47:31] SPEAKER_01: That's very standard.
[47:32] SPEAKER_01: If you're one of the age groupers who can get out there for more than that, then you're you're getting into the professional age group space, which is kind of a different point.
[47:40] SPEAKER_01: But if you're only riding between, say, five and 10 hours a week, you can afford for a huge percentage of that to be intensity.
[47:47] SPEAKER_01: Whether it's zone two, three, four, five, whatever it is, you don't really need a lot of zone one riding.
[47:53] SPEAKER_01: You can do it because you enjoy it, and you can do it like, you know, intermittently to help recovery and just so that you're not, you know, cooked for work or whatever it is, and you can adjust things on the fly if you had a bad night's sleep with your kids or whatever it is.
[48:07] SPEAKER_01: But generally speaking, if you're a low volume trainer like most age groupers are, and I consider low volume anything under 15 hours, which is crazy in our sport, but that is what I consider low volume.
[48:18] SPEAKER_01: Now, super low volume I consider under 10 hours.
[48:20] SPEAKER_01: Again, crazy, but I'm comparing it to professionals who can train 20 to 35 hours a week.
[48:25] SPEAKER_01: So if you're a low volume trainer, so that's anything under 15 hours in total swim bike run gym, then you can afford to do almost exclusively intensity on the bike.
[48:34] SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's a tempo session on a Tuesday into a VO2 session on a Thursday, into a long ride with threshold efforts on a sat day.
[48:42] SPEAKER_01: But that could be what your bike week looks like, and you're probably going to get to your absolute peak better than someone who's doing one session a week and the rest zone one, easy riding.
[48:51] SPEAKER_01: So, yes, in that scenario, I'd say zone one riding is kind of pointless for most people.
[48:56] SPEAKER_01: For professionals, that's a that's so individual, it's hard to answer.
[49:01] SPEAKER_01: Depends what who you are, where you're at.
[49:02] SPEAKER_01: Um, and the same goes for running.
[49:04] SPEAKER_01: The just the thing with the running is you're just so limited to limited by injury risk.
[49:09] SPEAKER_01: So in an ideal world, yes, you would do a lot of running at a higher intensity, but it's just so dependent on how resilient you are to injury because that's gonna that's gonna derail your training more than anything if you get injured.
[49:19] SPEAKER_04: Well, I I want to go back to the hypothetical though.
[49:22] SPEAKER_04: So we're the two years only easy versus two years nothing.
[49:27] SPEAKER_04: Do you agree that after yeah let's say uh six months, eight months, twelve months, and I'm assuming it's it's a pretty consistent amount of easy, because obviously if you do you know progressively overload the easy to the point where you're doing 30 hours a week or of just like easy training, there's you know a considerable amount of of benefit for that.
[49:50] SPEAKER_04: But if you're just you know going out and you build up from five to let's just say 15 for an age grouper and it's all easy, you're gonna reach, you're gonna stagnate after six months, eight months, twelve months.
[50:03] SPEAKER_04: Like the entire second year, your your threshold will basically remain unchanged.
[50:10] SPEAKER_04: Your race performance, if you went and did a 70.3 or an Olympic, would pretty much be unchanged.
[50:17] SPEAKER_04: Like the small percentage increases by because you're still getting an you know aerobic stimulus in that second year, but you're really not moving the needle after a certain point.
[50:27] SPEAKER_01: Well, you you would all it would always be going forward in some sense.
[50:30] SPEAKER_01: It's just how much compared and compared to if I was doing this other stuff.
[50:34] SPEAKER_01: Like you would be progressing, it just would be at a slower rate than what you might do if you go, okay, let's now add intensity three, four, five, six times a week.
[50:44] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, like you're gonna stagnate a bit relative to someone who who is training in a bit of a more sophisticated way, but again, compared to someone who's doing nothing.
[50:53] SPEAKER_04: Or who's just training harder?
[50:54] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is training harder.
[50:56] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
[50:56] SPEAKER_01: So I mean, you're right, the progression would be slow, but then if you just keep zooming out and go, well, if you just trained easy for 10 years, would you be fitter than the person who only trained easy for two years?
[51:06] SPEAKER_01: The answer is obviously yes, right?
[51:09] SPEAKER_01: So you it's not it doesn't stagnate to the point where you don't see any progression.
[51:13] SPEAKER_01: You're just gonna see slower, more gradual progression than someone who goes, Okay, I'm gonna peek for 12 weeks into this race and and does a lot of intensity.
[51:20] SPEAKER_04: To answer your question, Greg.
[51:21] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, those are good answers.
[51:23] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think the I think the running too is obviously you're limited by injury risk, but strides, baby.
[51:30] SPEAKER_05: Getting the miles in, like when I was getting back into running, like maybe 10 years ago, kept having Achilles flare up.
[51:37] SPEAKER_05: You know, I could probably run a 5k in I don't know, 17 minutes, 1630.
[51:42] SPEAKER_05: But I would I went out and jogged for like 830 pace for like three months just to get a baseline of consistency, then I progress from there, you know.
[51:51] SPEAKER_05: So I think it's like the the running easy is like underrated just for like just getting your body used to it, so then you can build on top of it.
[51:59] SPEAKER_05: But for cycling, it's like you're not gonna get injured, you're not gonna have an injury risk if you ride at 200 watts versus 130, right?
[52:05] SPEAKER_05: Essentially, unless you know you're severely underfueled.
[52:08] SPEAKER_05: Um, so I think that's that's something to consider as well if you're an age group.
[52:13] SPEAKER_04: The real answer is if you're serious, get a coach.
[52:16] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and just having a bike fit on the bike, because if you're doing too much on the bike and you know your saddle's too high or your saddle's too low, yeah, you actually will get injured.
[52:23] SPEAKER_01: So just a reliable bike fit.
[52:25] SPEAKER_01: And you'll know that by hey, when you ride, do your knees hurt, do your hips hurt, do your Achilles hurt, things like that.
[52:31] SPEAKER_01: If you don't have those things just by riding easy, then you'll know that I could I can probably ride pretty hard regularly and I won't get injured.
[52:37] SPEAKER_01: But if you get little like niggles all the time when you ride, it's probably a a um a symptom of a bad bike fit more than more than the training.
[52:44] SPEAKER_01: And then with the running, I completely agree with you, Greg.
[52:47] SPEAKER_01: If you're someone who's getting back into running or you're a little bit injury prone, a period of non-flashy training is the best thing in the world.
[52:54] SPEAKER_01: So I I I always think that sometimes with your own training, if you're setting it for yourself or or if you've got a coach who's setting your training, sometimes they try to like or like so either the coach tries to kind of validate the money that you're paying them or the expert expertise that they should bring by adding too much variety and and changing too many things and adding too many things when really what might be best for you is just six months of pretty much the same thing every time you run, or three months, or four months, or whatever it is.
[53:27] SPEAKER_01: But it's just like, hey, six K easy run, seven K easy run, eight K easy run, six K easy run, seven K easy runs, eight K easy run, ten K easy run, six K easy run, and that's what your program looks like for months and months and months.
[53:39] SPEAKER_01: And then maybe you add some strides every now and then, or maybe you add a very small LT1 run session every now and then.
[53:46] SPEAKER_01: Because this period of like it's almost resilience training for your body, for your tendons, ligaments, bones.
[53:52] SPEAKER_01: That's so vital before you just jump into okay, we're gonna do a VO2 run on the track on a Tuesday, and then we're gonna do tempo efforts on our local trail on a Thursday, and then we're gonna do a long run on a Sunday, and then the next week we're gonna do a different session on the Tuesday, and then a different session on the Thursday, and then this long run's gonna have hill reps on it.
[54:10] SPEAKER_01: Like that happens.
[54:11] SPEAKER_01: People try to add all this spice and variety into their training programs because they hear it on podcasts like this, or they read about it on Instagram, or they watch a YouTube video about it, and then they go, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do that, and they start pulling pieces from here, there, and everywhere, or coaches, like I said, they're just trying to justify it, so they're constantly adding variety.
[54:28] SPEAKER_01: Sometimes the best thing for your training is for it to be super boring and super repetitive.
[54:35] SPEAKER_01: And I think coaches need to like have confidence in their programming to realize hey, sometimes the best programming is just so basic and simple that it's almost like, why is this person paying me?
[54:47] SPEAKER_01: Well, they're paying you to set the basic and simple thing that will work for them.
[54:50] SPEAKER_04: And to text you once a week.
[54:52] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and to hold the hold them accountable for doing it and to have companionship of the process of doing it.
[54:57] SPEAKER_01: So I think that's something not to not to get um scared of as a coach or as an athlete as well.
[55:02] SPEAKER_01: Like if you're an athlete and your coach does set you things like that, it's probably a sign that they're a pretty good coach and quite a secure coach.
[55:09] SPEAKER_01: Now, at some point it does have to change and progress, but again, if you just got a coach who like let's say every single week there's two different run sessions every single week or year, that's kind of red flag-ish for me.
[55:21] SPEAKER_01: Um I also have a bit of a training question speaking of training.
[55:26] SPEAKER_01: What do you think is the one thing that most people are undervaluing in their training and should start doing more of?
[55:35] SPEAKER_01: Or just start doing in general?
[55:37] SPEAKER_04: I think if we're talking about age groupers, I I think it still comes down to uh nutrition and carbohydrate consumption.
[55:44] SPEAKER_04: I think that's probably the number one thing that uh probably newer triathletes, but you know, experienced triathletes uh have like you have to catch on at some point, uh, because like you keep bonking and you keep just having like terrible days because you're underfueled, like you have to learn eventually.
[56:02] SPEAKER_04: But I think people who are relatively new, it could be eye-opening.
[56:06] SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, especially if you're training for an Iron Man, like how much you have to eat and how much you have to eat like while you're riding.
[56:14] SPEAKER_04: You know, if you're gonna go get ready for uh a 180k ride and a marathon after that, and after a 3,800 meter swim, like just doing the training for that, you're gonna be burning a lot of calories and a lot of carbohydrate.
[56:27] SPEAKER_04: And yeah, I think people think it's way harder than it is, and it is hard, but people think it's harder than it is, sometimes impossible, simply because they're not eating enough.
[56:39] SPEAKER_04: And that would solve so many people's problems.
[56:42] SPEAKER_04: That's I at least from what I have seen, is probably like the number one.
[56:46] SPEAKER_05: I like that one.
[56:48] SPEAKER_05: Um well, I'm the swim expert, so swim frequency.
[56:53] SPEAKER_05: You know, it's it's funny.
[56:54] SPEAKER_05: I talk to a fair amount of age groupers and I coach a fair amount, and you know, I'm trying to throw shade at anyone, but you know, oh, I'm frustrated with my swim.
[57:01] SPEAKER_05: It's like, well, how much do you swim?
[57:02] SPEAKER_05: Well, two days a week, sometimes three.
[57:04] SPEAKER_05: It's like it's just not enough.
[57:07] SPEAKER_05: Like, I mean, you can improve on those things like with a well-structured program, but I just think touching the water like as many days as you possibly can, and I get it.
[57:14] SPEAKER_05: Time, driving to the pool, it all takes time, but I don't know.
[57:18] SPEAKER_05: I think swim frequency is like massively underrated, and I'd much rather you some swim six, three K workouts than three, six K workouts.
[57:27] SPEAKER_01: Greg, is this for professionals or age groupers?
[57:29] SPEAKER_05: I think both.
[57:30] SPEAKER_05: I think pros like actually commend up going to the pool a lot and grinding a lot, which maybe grinding too much, which I've seen with some pros.
[57:40] SPEAKER_05: I mean, because the other loads are so high, too.
[57:43] SPEAKER_05: So I mean it's all nuanced, but I think anyone, I mean, you know, I just think the best swimmers in the world, they all swim.
[57:50] SPEAKER_05: If you want to get good at something, you should do it pretty much every day.
[57:53] SPEAKER_05: Pro runners train every day.
[57:55] SPEAKER_05: Like the best cyclists in the world, they ride every day.
[57:57] SPEAKER_05: And we can't all do that, but if you're seriously trying to make gains or like get better at something, and and swimming is so like neuro and motor patterns and just this feel for the water, it's like give yourself a chance to feel that feeling five or six days a week, and you'll probably and you look back in six months, you're probably gonna be in a way better spot, even if there's not that much more intensity or even volume.
[58:22] SPEAKER_05: But I think just touching the water is is important.
[58:25] SPEAKER_01: Okay, so can I throw a few scenarios at you?
[58:27] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
[58:28] SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
[58:29] SPEAKER_01: Okay, so if you're an age grouper and you have somewhere south of 15 hours a week to train, between, let's say between five and fifteen hours a week to train, how much of that time in hours do you think should be spent in the pool?
[58:43] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, this is a hard one.
[58:45] SPEAKER_05: Like, because if you want I'd say like four, maybe like four, four and seven, maybe four, three and a half running and seven and a half cycling.
[58:55] SPEAKER_05: You know, it's it's it's a small portion of the race though.
[58:58] SPEAKER_05: So I I get it, and it takes time to get to the pool too.
[59:02] SPEAKER_05: But I, you know, I think you can do a lot in 40 minutes, and you can do really good 2k to 2.5k like structured quality workouts.
[59:10] SPEAKER_05: Doesn't mean it's intensity, but just like really skill-based.
[59:14] SPEAKER_05: So I think maybe in that ballpark would would would be good, but you know, I I come with my own biases, and you know, people might think that's ridiculous, but um, whatever.
[59:23] SPEAKER_05: I let out 70.3 worlds, so whatever.
[59:26] SPEAKER_01: And and if you were to swim, let's say if you like let's say four hours, but let's even go, it's like between three and four hours, right?
[59:34] SPEAKER_01: So how am I best to do that?
[59:35] SPEAKER_01: Is is is if what you're saying that frequency matters, what if I went and did seven by one case swims every single week?
[59:43] SPEAKER_01: Is that better than two by you know three and a half c swims?
[59:47] SPEAKER_05: I think that's pushing the limits, but uh let's another scenario would be like let's do an hour swim, let's do two 45 minute swims, and let's do two 30-minute swims.
[59:57] SPEAKER_05: So that would get you in three and a half hours.
[1:00:00] SPEAKER_05: So that's five swims, right?
[1:00:02] SPEAKER_05: Um I still think a longer swim each week is like a general good thing, but one K is pretty short.
[1:00:11] SPEAKER_05: I would say like two K, maybe in that structure.
[1:00:14] SPEAKER_05: So in that structure, maybe you go three, two Ks and one 1K workout rather than like two, three and a half.
[1:00:21] SPEAKER_05: But I'd I'd just rather you see you swim more than uh 7K.
[1:00:26] SPEAKER_05: Like I I think getting over 10K, I think, is is is pretty money, and getting closer to that 15k is um important to if you want to finish your rate, if you want to have a good back half of your 70.3 swim and you swim eight K a week, you're gonna have to pace it really conservatively because you probably I don't think you have the fill fitness or strength endurance built up with that type of volume, unless you're coming from a massive swim background.
[1:00:51] SPEAKER_01: And talk to me about intensity.
[1:00:53] SPEAKER_01: Like if you're only swimming that much, how much should it should be intensity?
[1:00:56] SPEAKER_01: Like what if I did set what if I did do the seven by one K's, but every single thing I did was just really high intensity at race pace.
[1:01:04] SPEAKER_05: I think you would be better off to go like faster than race pace, like uh higher intensity with like maybe some like scale building, you know, some like catchwork or balance or rotation, whatever things that are lacking in your stroke, plus like some speed.
[1:01:17] SPEAKER_05: I'm like I'm a big proponent of speed is efficiency.
[1:01:20] SPEAKER_05: So um I think you can all be quality.
[1:01:24] SPEAKER_05: And uh you know, 3x1k aerobic isn't quality work.
[1:01:28] SPEAKER_05: You can do quality in a different way and like have it mean something.
[1:01:32] SPEAKER_05: So I think if you're only gonna swim seven or eight K, I think you can do a fair amount at like a good intensity, but just making sure it's not these crazy long three or four hundred threshold intervals where your form technique goes to shit and you can like, you know, you can still get really fit doing 50s and 100.
[1:01:49] SPEAKER_05: You know, I think you can get fit as heck doing all 50s for an Iron Man.
[1:01:53] SPEAKER_05: It just has to be appropriately done.
[1:01:55] SPEAKER_04: I'm just eating this up so I can uh take my eight-minute Iron Man deficit to four minutes and finish the race next time.
[1:02:02] SPEAKER_01: My uh my bit of advice, I think that people should either start doing or or be doing more of is T T position efforts uphill or on the trainer where you don't break T T position like at all.
[1:02:17] SPEAKER_01: Not you don't come up the three seconds, you do not break it for the entire interval at somewhere between like 70.3 race specific power or FTP power, which I would say for most people 70.3 power is probably slightly lower than their FTP.
[1:02:33] SPEAKER_01: So somewhere in that range, and like so, for example, let's say you're gonna go and ride 260 watts for a 70.3 and your FTP is like 290 watts.
[1:02:44] SPEAKER_01: So I would say, for example, a really good session might be Wait, that's crazy.
[1:02:50] SPEAKER_04: I feel like that's a crazy high uh percentage, is it?
[1:02:53] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[1:02:54] SPEAKER_04: Well, no, not really.
[1:02:55] SPEAKER_04: If your FTP is 290 and you push 260, well, I feel like that's if you think about it, your true FTP.
[1:03:02] SPEAKER_04: That's at night.
[1:03:03] SPEAKER_01: Your true FTP you should be able to hold for about an hour, right?
[1:03:06] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, if you go 90% of your one hour power for 70.3, I feel like you would be cooked.
[1:03:11] SPEAKER_01: Well, your FTP is like 345 at the moment, probably.
[1:03:15] SPEAKER_04: Oh god, I feel like you're just stabbing me this whole episode.
[1:03:19] SPEAKER_04: I think it is.
[1:03:20] SPEAKER_04: I mean, it might be.
[1:03:20] SPEAKER_04: I actually think it is.
[1:03:21] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you if you look at it, I think your FTP right now is about 345, 350 watts, and your 70.3 power is like 320 to 340.
[1:03:30] SPEAKER_04: No, I if I'm going 320 to 330 right now, I'm I'm gonna go fresh and tapered, probably like.
[1:03:37] SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's crazy.
[1:03:38] SPEAKER_04: I can't, I you're I you're definitely not right.
[1:03:40] SPEAKER_04: I can't argue with you right now, but you think it's not right.
[1:03:44] SPEAKER_01: It's not think about it.
[1:03:45] SPEAKER_01: A 70.3 is about two hours, right?
[1:03:48] SPEAKER_01: And then an FTP is about an hour.
[1:03:50] SPEAKER_01: So your FTP, like the the most common way people try and figure it out is it's like somewhere between like 92 and 95% of a 20-meter power test, 20-minute power test, right?
[1:04:00] SPEAKER_04: Well, the true one is at five minutes all out.
[1:04:03] SPEAKER_01: No, that's just another that's just another test to try and figure out your FTP.
[1:04:07] SPEAKER_04: No, but I think I think 20 uh 95% of a 20-minute, fresh 20-minute test for most people is going to overestimate your FTP.
[1:04:15] SPEAKER_04: Well, I mean, regardless, I think I feel like we're getting too far from the from the main point, which is I wholly agree with you from experience.
[1:04:23] SPEAKER_04: Uh TTing on the trainer or uphill where you don't where you do not leave TT position is extremely effective.
[1:04:30] SPEAKER_01: I think this is important though, like what is FTP?
[1:04:32] SPEAKER_01: Because it's a quite confusing subject, but FTP is literally just the average power you can hold for about an hour.
[1:04:38] SPEAKER_01: That's that's literally what FTP is.
[1:04:41] SPEAKER_01: So there won't be a huge gap between what you can hold for an hour and what you can hold for two hours.
[1:04:45] SPEAKER_01: That gap is very small for most people.
[1:04:47] SPEAKER_01: I actually think like the 260, 290 is fairly reasonable.
[1:04:51] SPEAKER_01: Like I I would say most people it's going to be between 20 and 50 watts difference for an hour, what they can hold for one hour compared to two hours.
[1:04:59] SPEAKER_01: Anyway, the point the point of the session, um I think something like a session like you know, five by five minutes in TT position, holding somewhere between 70.3 specific power and FTP, not breaking the position at all, and then progressing that and progressing that.
[1:05:14] SPEAKER_01: It can be on the trainer as well, because it's really hard.
[1:05:16] SPEAKER_01: I think so many people they just get lazy with it and they break position.
[1:05:20] SPEAKER_01: It's really easy sub those powers, like iron man-ish power.
[1:05:24] SPEAKER_01: It's really easy to hold it for quite a while.
[1:05:26] SPEAKER_01: And then even I think for like say if you're doing like one minute on, one minute off, or any kind of VO2, it can be quite easy in short intervals to hold it, but it's really hard to hold it for like five to twenty minutes at FTP to 70.3 power.
[1:05:40] SPEAKER_01: So do more of that.
[1:05:41] SPEAKER_01: That's my that's my big piece of start doing or do more of.
[1:05:45] SPEAKER_05: Okay.
[1:05:46] SPEAKER_05: Um back by popular demand, contender or pretender, here we go again.
[1:05:52] SPEAKER_05: I wish Justin was on the show because I know he loved this and he, you know, it makes makes you feel good.
[1:05:57] SPEAKER_05: Like we said, we felt really good after we did this.
[1:06:00] SPEAKER_05: Before, so we're we're we're bringing it back, and we got some good stuff on store.
[1:06:04] SPEAKER_05: Okay.
[1:06:05] SPEAKER_01: Are we going to talk about what happened when we went to record with Justin last week while Ari was away?
[1:06:11] SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
[1:06:13] SPEAKER_05: We thought about doing the segment, and Justin was like, I'm I'm I can't do the podcast.
[1:06:17] SPEAKER_02: Oh drop out.
[1:06:21] SPEAKER_01: Greg goes, Greg goes, hey, can we do contender or pretender again?
[1:06:24] SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh sure, dunno.
[1:06:26] SPEAKER_01: And Justin goes, guys, if we're gonna do that, then I'm not gonna do the podcast.
[1:06:31] SPEAKER_02: And that's exactly what he sounds like too.
[1:06:33] SPEAKER_01: And then I just laugh, I just laughed and I was like, oh whatever, like I don't care.
[1:06:36] SPEAKER_01: And he's like, no, seriously, guys, I I'm out, I'm out.
[1:06:40] SPEAKER_01: I'm out.
[1:06:40] SPEAKER_01: If we're gonna do if we're gonna do that, I'm out.
[1:06:45] SPEAKER_01: And I I then we just kind of didn't say anything and I and and went about the episode.
[1:06:49] SPEAKER_01: And the whole time I'm like, is Greg gonna do this?
[1:06:52] SPEAKER_01: But he didn't.
[1:06:53] SPEAKER_04: Uh well, I have no shame.
[1:06:55] SPEAKER_04: I'm just an idiot talking about other people on a podcast, so let's go.
[1:07:00] SPEAKER_04: Let's go.
[1:07:00] SPEAKER_04: All you motherfuckers are pretenders.
[1:07:02] SPEAKER_01: I do hate this segment, but it's kind of funny.
[1:07:04] SPEAKER_05: First one, first one, Sam Appleton.
[1:07:08] SPEAKER_05: Contender! Uh contender.
[1:07:12] SPEAKER_05: Contender.
[1:07:14] SPEAKER_05: Matthew Marquat.
[1:07:16] SPEAKER_05: Contender.
[1:07:17] SPEAKER_05: Oh, contender.
[1:07:18] SPEAKER_06: Even more contender if he cramps.
[1:07:23] SPEAKER_06: Lionel Sanders.
[1:07:24] SPEAKER_06: Contender.
[1:07:26] SPEAKER_01: Oh.
[1:07:28] SPEAKER_01: Uh Contender.
[1:07:31] SPEAKER_05: I'm going contender.
[1:07:32] SPEAKER_05: And just for context, this is kind of end of the year, in the money.
[1:07:37] SPEAKER_05: Saying like top five-ish?
[1:07:39] SPEAKER_05: In the money.
[1:07:40] SPEAKER_05: In the money.
[1:07:42] SPEAKER_05: So, okay.
[1:07:43] SPEAKER_05: I meant like in the money of the race.
[1:07:44] SPEAKER_05: But yeah, kind of, we're thinking like top five, fringe top top five on a good day.
[1:07:48] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[1:07:49] SPEAKER_01: At 70.3 worlds or T100 World Champs or IMM Worlds.
[1:07:53] SPEAKER_01: That kind of that kind of race.
[1:07:54] SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
[1:07:55] SPEAKER_05: Alright.
[1:07:55] SPEAKER_05: Sam Long.
[1:07:58] SPEAKER_05: Pretender.
[1:07:59] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:08:01] SPEAKER_05: Contender.
[1:08:02] SPEAKER_05: Um, this gentleman asked me specifically not to include him in this, so we're going for it.
[1:08:08] SPEAKER_05: Jackson Laundry.
[1:08:10] SPEAKER_05: Pretender.
[1:08:12] SPEAKER_05: I hate that.
[1:08:13] SPEAKER_05: Pretender.
[1:08:14] SPEAKER_05: Contender, come on.
[1:08:15] SPEAKER_06: Oh, you're folding.
[1:08:17] SPEAKER_05: No.
[1:08:19] SPEAKER_05: He's gonna swim from Packet Worlds.
[1:08:21] SPEAKER_05: Just mark my words.
[1:08:22] SPEAKER_05: I've got insider information.
[1:08:24] SPEAKER_05: Alright, Paula Finlay.
[1:08:26] SPEAKER_05: Contender.
[1:08:27] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:08:28] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:08:29] SPEAKER_01: These have been so easy compared to the first time you did it.
[1:08:32] SPEAKER_01: These are just all contenders.
[1:08:33] SPEAKER_06: As gentle.
[1:08:34] SPEAKER_06: Contender, best in the world.
[1:08:36] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, contender.
[1:08:38] SPEAKER_06: Yeah, contender.
[1:08:39] SPEAKER_06: Alright, Braden Curry.
[1:08:41] SPEAKER_06: Pretender.
[1:08:42] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pretender.
[1:08:43] SPEAKER_02: Pretender.
[1:08:44] SPEAKER_06: Solvit Solveg Lovseth.
[1:08:47] SPEAKER_06: Contender for sure.
[1:08:48] SPEAKER_06: Yeah, contender for sure.
[1:08:50] SPEAKER_05: Contender.
[1:08:51] SPEAKER_05: Matt Hansen.
[1:08:53] SPEAKER_06: Pretender.
[1:08:54] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pretender.
[1:08:56] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:08:57] SPEAKER_01: Lottie Wilms.
[1:09:00] SPEAKER_01: Ah, pretender.
[1:09:01] SPEAKER_01: I hate this.
[1:09:02] SPEAKER_01: Lottie's one of my favorite people.
[1:09:04] SPEAKER_01: Um Pretender.
[1:09:07] SPEAKER_04: But like close to being a contender, you know?
[1:09:10] SPEAKER_01: Really close.
[1:09:11] SPEAKER_01: She she like surely we are expecting her to be around that tenth mark worlds.
[1:09:15] SPEAKER_04: I was gonna say like sixth to tenth, which is like close to fifth.
[1:09:19] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's borderline contender, pretender, but yeah.
[1:09:22] SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
[1:09:23] SPEAKER_06: Jason West.
[1:09:26] SPEAKER_06: Current Jason West pretender.
[1:09:28] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pretender.
[1:09:29] SPEAKER_01: Can't ride.
[1:09:29] SPEAKER_01: Can't ride strong enough at the big races.
[1:09:32] SPEAKER_05: I think he's going top five at 70.3 worlds.
[1:09:34] SPEAKER_05: Jason West contender.
[1:09:37] SPEAKER_05: Kyle Smith.
[1:09:39] SPEAKER_05: Contender.
[1:09:40] SPEAKER_05: Oh, huge contender.
[1:09:42] SPEAKER_05: Contender.
[1:09:43] SPEAKER_05: Colin Zoo.
[1:09:45] SPEAKER_05: Such I don't actually.
[1:09:47] SPEAKER_03: Colin Zoo.
[1:09:48] SPEAKER_05: I always say zoo for some reason.
[1:09:51] SPEAKER_04: It's such love you, Colin.
[1:09:54] SPEAKER_04: Shout out.
[1:09:55] SPEAKER_04: Thank you for the gel on the run course.
[1:09:56] SPEAKER_04: You gave me a caffeine gel at Lake Placid, but uh pretender.
[1:09:59] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pretender for now.
[1:10:00] SPEAKER_01: Pretender for now.
[1:10:02] SPEAKER_04: Uh Hannah Berry.
[1:10:05] SPEAKER_04: I mean, same as Lottie.
[1:10:07] SPEAKER_04: Like, I'm gonna say pretender, but just because it's I hate this.
[1:10:11] SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
[1:10:11] SPEAKER_01: I'm not answering that.
[1:10:12] SPEAKER_01: I love that.
[1:10:13] SPEAKER_01: That's a tough one.
[1:10:16] SPEAKER_01: Oh, hate this segment.
[1:10:19] SPEAKER_01: Um, only a few more.
[1:10:23] SPEAKER_01: I hate this.
[1:10:24] SPEAKER_05: No, no.
[1:10:25] SPEAKER_01: Uh can oh can she come top five at Kona?
[1:10:32] SPEAKER_01: Probably pretender.
[1:10:34] SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, probably pretender.
[1:10:36] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:10:37] SPEAKER_01: Justin Reale.
[1:10:39] SPEAKER_06: Pretender.
[1:10:40] SPEAKER_06: Pretender.
[1:10:41] SPEAKER_06: Pretender.
[1:10:42] SPEAKER_06: He's pretender.
[1:10:43] SPEAKER_06: Alright, Joe Skipper.
[1:10:45] SPEAKER_06: He's already been on here.
[1:10:46] SPEAKER_06: I know.
[1:10:47] SPEAKER_06: Okay, well, pretender.
[1:10:49] SPEAKER_05: Alright, fine.
[1:10:50] SPEAKER_05: No comment.
[1:10:51] SPEAKER_05: Pretender.
[1:10:52] SPEAKER_05: Joe Skipper as commentator.
[1:10:54] SPEAKER_06: Absolute contender.
[1:10:56] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, funny.
[1:10:57] SPEAKER_05: Funny as fuck.
[1:10:58] SPEAKER_05: Love it.
[1:10:58] SPEAKER_05: Jack Kelly's coaching.
[1:11:01] SPEAKER_06: Contender.
[1:11:01] SPEAKER_06: Best in the world.
[1:11:02] SPEAKER_06: That's fucking podium at World Champs for sure.
[1:11:05] SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, we're seeing an example right now about someone getting worse without it.
[1:11:10] SPEAKER_05: And your answer, Jack?
[1:11:11] SPEAKER_05: Pass.
[1:11:13] SPEAKER_05: I'm going contender.
[1:11:15] SPEAKER_05: Ari Cloud's YouTube.
[1:11:17] SPEAKER_04: Oh, I mean, right right now, pretender.
[1:11:19] SPEAKER_02: Like, absolutely no question there.
[1:11:21] SPEAKER_02: Depressingly bad pretender.
[1:11:25] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I'm going, I'm going pretender on that.
[1:11:27] SPEAKER_05: I've fallen a long way.
[1:11:29] SPEAKER_05: Alright, we're doing three more.
[1:11:31] SPEAKER_05: Uh, Anne Reichman, pretender.
[1:11:34] SPEAKER_02: Contender.
[1:11:35] SPEAKER_01: Top five?
[1:11:36] SPEAKER_01: Yep, at Cona.
[1:11:36] SPEAKER_01: She's a beast, mate.
[1:11:38] SPEAKER_01: Her bike is huge.
[1:11:39] SPEAKER_01: Look, I'm not saying she will, but just what at Nice, she would have come top five at Nice if she didn't crash.
[1:11:46] SPEAKER_01: She 100% would have come top five at Nice if she didn't crash last year.
[1:11:50] SPEAKER_01: 100%.
[1:11:50] SPEAKER_05: Alright, watch this face.
[1:11:52] SPEAKER_05: I'm going contender as well.
[1:11:54] SPEAKER_05: Uh, Henry Shuman Schumann.
[1:11:57] SPEAKER_05: If he rides with Vince Louie, contender.
[1:11:59] SPEAKER_05: Pretender.
[1:12:02] SPEAKER_05: Big pretender.
[1:12:03] SPEAKER_05: Alright.
[1:12:04] SPEAKER_05: This is a question mark one.
[1:12:05] SPEAKER_05: I don't know if she's kinda.
[1:12:06] SPEAKER_05: I hope she's coming back for the end of the year, but I'm not sure actually.
[1:12:09] SPEAKER_05: Emma Palant Brown.
[1:12:11] SPEAKER_01: Oh.
[1:12:11] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like this.
[1:12:13] SPEAKER_01: Did she have a baby?
[1:12:15] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but on Mom Judy's, but or hasn't had it yet.
[1:12:18] SPEAKER_01: He's having it.
[1:12:19] SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
[1:12:20] SPEAKER_01: Oh, she hasn't had it yet?
[1:12:21] SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's a little close.
[1:12:23] SPEAKER_01: Let's just say, let's just say two months after pregnancy, contender or pretender.
[1:12:27] SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's like unfair.
[1:12:31] SPEAKER_05: We're just out here like that.
[1:12:33] SPEAKER_05: That's not that hard.
[1:12:34] SPEAKER_05: Oh no, two months, that's a long time.
[1:12:37] SPEAKER_05: Well, November, so August, September.
[1:12:40] SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna say Contender.
[1:12:41] SPEAKER_05: I think she's having her baby soon.
[1:12:43] SPEAKER_05: I think she could get back to uh for yeah, for 70.3 worlds.
[1:12:46] SPEAKER_01: Women always come back better after babies.
[1:12:48] SPEAKER_01: That's just a fact.
[1:12:49] SPEAKER_06: Alright, I'll say I'll say contender for 70.3 worlds for sure.
[1:12:52] SPEAKER_01: Yep, for sure.
[1:12:54] SPEAKER_01: Alright.
[1:12:54] SPEAKER_01: Another big episode in the books.
[1:12:56] SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Ari.
[1:12:57] SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Greg, for coming on.
[1:12:58] SPEAKER_01: We'll do it all again next week.
[1:13:00] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, how long till we get canceled?
[1:13:02] SPEAKER_02: I think that might be the end of the death of contender opportunities.
[1:13:08] SPEAKER_02: That wasn't as bad as last time I didn't think that.
[1:13:10] SPEAKER_01: No, a lot of contenders there, which makes it easy, but also makes it kind of boring.
[1:13:13] SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
[1:13:14] SPEAKER_05: I thought I thought your coaching was a good one, but uh yeah, anyway.
[1:13:18] SPEAKER_05: Alright.
[1:13:19] SPEAKER_05: Whatever.
[1:13:20] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, my segment sucks.
[1:13:21] SPEAKER_05: I realize, guys.
[1:13:22] SPEAKER_05: All right, I'm out.

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