# Matthew Marquardt

An episode of [The Triathlon Hour](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1595443343), 7 Jul 2025, 1 h 10 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2640942/episodes/19698049-matthew-marquardt.mp3

After winning Ironman Cairns Matthew Marquardt joins us to talk about the race, his season, his training (in LOTS of detail), the cramping issue that has been plaguing his season, the importance of sleep for performance and lots more! Nord VPN: Take advantage of a great deal with Nord VPN use the code triathlonhour or visit nordvpn.com/triathlonhour to get a huge discount in the 2 year plans PLUS 4 extra months! It is risk free with Nord's 30 days money back guarantee! Pillar: Use the code TTH to get 15% off your first order with Pillar Performance at Pillar Performance or use The Feed for North American customers Precision: Use the code TTH25 to get 15% off your first order with Precision at Precision Fuel & Hydration or subscribe to the Patreon and access the link that will save you 20% on every order, not just your first Patreon Patreon: We put a lot of time & energy into bringing you this podcast every week and have done for 4 years now. If you appreciate what we do, we would love your support and you can do so for less than the cost of a coffee per week on Patreon - Patreon link

## Transcript

[0:29] SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the Triton Hour.
[0:31] SPEAKER_00: We're joined by the man the beast, Matthew Marklart, fresh off his win at Iron Man Cairns.
[0:36] SPEAKER_00: Matt, thank you for coming back for your second time on the Triton Hour.
[0:40] SPEAKER_01: Of course, more than happy to, anytime.
[0:42] SPEAKER_00: So you've made your way out to Australia and you've exited the water at Iron Man Cairns and you're in the front pack with Jamie Riddle, and then suddenly you start cramping and you're walking in T1, and it looks like your race is over and you're going to be kind of facing this same problem you've had pretty much since the Iron Man World Championships last year after your massive performance at Iron Man Lake Placid, where you came second to Trevor Foley.
[1:06] SPEAKER_00: You've been dealing with this cramping issue out of the water straight away.
[1:08] SPEAKER_00: What were you thinking in T1 after you'd flown all the way out here only to have the issue happen again?
[1:14] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I think the main thought was like, oh, oh, here we go again.
[1:18] SPEAKER_01: Um just kind of honestly not necessarily in like crisis mode, just kind of more and not quite defeated either, but I think just very matter of fact, like, okay, here we go again.
[1:29] SPEAKER_01: Um, the one benefit of it happening so many times is I know what needs to happen for it to loosen up, which is that I needed to get to my bike as quickly but also um conservatively as possible.
[1:41] SPEAKER_01: Um, because obviously, if I were to kind of push it too much, I could obviously get injured, but I also needed to get on the bike because that was gonna be the main way to help loosen it up.
[1:51] SPEAKER_01: Because what I found is that the, you know, just riding the bike at like a very low power for a couple of minutes helps loosen things up and then eventually like I'm good to go.
[2:01] SPEAKER_01: Um, but obviously was definitely disappointed because the swim went pretty much exactly as I had hoped it would, which was getting out of the water with Josh and Jamie and um and with kind of like uh a chase group somewhat far behind.
[2:16] SPEAKER_01: And so um was definitely bummed by that, but you know, I think at the same time it was like, okay, like, you know, here we go again, and like let's just give give yourself a chance um and start writing and let's see what the day brings and and stay patient.
[2:33] SPEAKER_01: And so thankfully, like after about 30 minutes, things started to loosen up and I started to feel better again.
[2:38] SPEAKER_01: And um and then at and then at that point it was like, okay, like you know, you need to be patient.
[2:45] SPEAKER_01: Like you can't just go all out and try and catch these people because it is an Iron Man and it's a long day, and you have to be patient.
[2:51] SPEAKER_01: So um at that point it was really like, okay, like let's just, you know, ride at power, ride to the ride to the plan, um, and don't do anything crazy yet, and see where you're at at the first turnaround.
[3:04] SPEAKER_01: And at the first turnaround, I think I was about six minutes um behind, and um, which are obviously is not great to automatically lose six minutes, but also at the same time, it was my mentality was like, okay, six minutes, but let's see, you know, let's let's try and not let that get any further.
[3:22] SPEAKER_01: And by the by the time we got back down to Palm Cove and started the second loop, it was kind of about the same.
[3:28] SPEAKER_01: Maybe I pulled back like 30 seconds and it was like, okay, like I'm holding.
[3:33] SPEAKER_01: And and at that point, kind of going at the the first way out on the second loop was when I started catching people, and I was like, oh, okay, like, you know, I'm feeling better, and um, let's just make that last 65k into the headwind my like my time.
[3:49] SPEAKER_01: And that's that's my opportunity.
[3:51] SPEAKER_01: And so took that and was able to obviously pull everyone back except for Nick Thompson and Ben Hill.
[3:56] SPEAKER_01: And um, and yeah, so like it was it was definitely a crazy start to the race, and obviously would have preferred to not have the cramping, but um also at the same time, I think that I'm very proud of the way that I managed it.
[4:10] SPEAKER_01: Um so so yeah, but we always we always knew that it was a risk.
[4:14] SPEAKER_01: Like when we decided to do cans, um, we knew that it was a lot of travel, and and obviously there's the money and the time that goes with that and and kind of the disruption of training, and but that was the whole point.
[4:26] SPEAKER_01: Like the whole point of going down there was not necessarily to win.
[4:30] SPEAKER_01: It was like let's have another opportunity to race and see if we have this cramping problem figured out again.
[4:35] SPEAKER_01: Um so we which I guess we we don't quite have it figured out, but I do feel like I'm optimistic that by Lake Plastic we'll have have something figured out.
[4:46] SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna come back to Cairns and go into that in in more detail in a second.
[4:50] SPEAKER_00: But firstly, for those who don't know, you kind of burst onto the scene, I would say, Matt, in Texas in 2023, where you had that podium finish behind Rudy Von Berg, and then you went on to Caulder Lane, where you you had another podium finish, like I think it was like a month and a half later.
[5:06] SPEAKER_00: And then you came 11th at the Iron Man World Championships in Nice that year, which I think kind of was surprising to a lot of people.
[5:11] SPEAKER_00: That was a massive performance I felt on that course coming from America, and then you you podiumed Iron Man Florida, and then you went into 2024, and you had a massive 2024 as well, where you had that Texas and Lake Placid run where you were on the podium in in both of those races.
[5:26] SPEAKER_00: And it was kind of like you were on top of the world a little bit, and then at Kona, you were like you were a massive factor in Patrick Lang winning that Iron Man World Championships last year.
[5:36] SPEAKER_00: I really think that the the group you did a lot of work in that that kind of was that big, strong front bike pack where Patrick Lang was a part of, and and yeah, you were you played a pivotal role in that race despite coming 15th.
[5:49] SPEAKER_00: And then since then, it's just become weird.
[5:52] SPEAKER_00: Like you came on, you were you weren't having any issues really.
[5:56] SPEAKER_00: Like you're on top of the world, you were running well, you were swimming well, you were you were cycling well, you were into the kind of top 20, top 30 in the world, and it just looked like this year you were going to just run on with things and and become one of the real big hitters in the game, and then you've had this slow start to the year, you know, you haven't you haven't, I don't know, I've like come like 15th at at Texas, and then pretty similar at St.
[6:16] SPEAKER_00: George.
[6:16] SPEAKER_00: Um, and so before Cans, it was kind of concerning.
[6:20] SPEAKER_00: You were having this massive cramping issue every time you come out of the water.
[6:23] SPEAKER_00: In in your mind, what was what's been happening?
[6:27] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean, I think like uh obviously I was very fortunate um to have such a good run at the beginning, um, and not saying that that runs over, but we've obviously had a little little bump in the road.
[6:39] SPEAKER_01: And um I think you know, really the the most frustrating thing to me about it is um that I put in re I'm put in really great training in the offseason from you know January till Texas.
[6:52] SPEAKER_01: Like I was really happy with how training progressed, especially with kind of some changes to school um in terms of the ability and how I was able to train and stuff like that.
[7:02] SPEAKER_01: But despite all of that, like objectively, I was getting better, um especially on the run.
[7:09] SPEAKER_01: And so coming into like Texas in particular, like I was really looking forward to being able to express that.
[7:16] SPEAKER_01: Like I made some tactical errors at Kona um that kind of hurt me on the run.
[7:22] SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, uh 70.3 worlds and Topah obviously had the cramping, and so that was kind of not the way that I wanted to end last year.
[7:31] SPEAKER_01: And so coming into Texas, like I was definitely really motivated, but also um really happy with kind of where I was at from a training standpoint and really ready to go, um, especially against as competitive a field as it was.
[7:44] SPEAKER_01: And um, but yeah, and then like the cramping happened again and like in Topah, our guess was like maybe it was the colder water or maybe it was the wetsuit.
[7:53] SPEAKER_01: But like I this was my fourth time racing Texas, and I've never had cramping problems before.
[7:59] SPEAKER_01: And Texas is like warm, warmer water, and it's a wetsuit, like or sorry, it's a swim skin.
[8:05] SPEAKER_01: Like, and so all of those things like you know shouldn't necessarily contribute to cramping, but we had but you know, then we had the problem again, and and so and then St.
[8:15] SPEAKER_01: George again.
[8:16] SPEAKER_01: And so um to kind of answer your question, uh what we believe is happening is uh to keep it really, really simple, is that there's um like some stuff going on in the swim that's um contributing to kind of um a nerve issue, um, where basically uh the nerve that the nerve in both of my legs um that uh controls kind of the muscles in my quads, the the front of my upper leg is basically kind of getting overstimulated and to the point where when I transition from being in the water um to getting out of the water, it kind of is basically just going haywire and causing these spasms.
[9:03] SPEAKER_01: And um what can happen you know from talking to a bunch of people is uh basically what's happened is when you have, you know, when you you have kind of muscles and you have nerves.
[9:16] SPEAKER_01: And your muscle, you can almost think of your muscle as like a ziploc bag.
[9:20] SPEAKER_01: Um and then you're and if you you can stack two ziploc bags on it on top of each other with water in them.
[9:26] SPEAKER_01: And then you the nerve is like call it like a string, or I mean you you could call it like a really flexible um straw or something that that runs between those two ziploc bags, and normally that nerve slides just fine between those muscles because when your muscles contract, the muscles move, but the nerve kind of stays in the same position.
[9:47] SPEAKER_01: But what can happen, especially like with lots and lots of training, is that you can build up little bits of scar tissue kind of either between the muscle and the nerve or between the muscles of each other, and that can kind of um prevent the nerve from moving, from gliding as easily as it can, and that can overstimulate it.
[10:05] SPEAKER_01: And um so that's like the hypothesis, the general working hypothesis that we have to go with.
[10:11] SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I've had a lot of um what's called active release therapy treatment done to kind of help hopefully to help that nerve move a little bit better.
[10:20] SPEAKER_01: And then kind of what our our thought right now, because we thought that we had kind of fixed everything for cans, but um our thought right now is that like um there's probably a body position problem um when I do open water because like I swim in a pool, and when you swim in a pool, you get to do a flip turn every 15 every 15 seconds, pretty much 15 to 20 seconds.
[10:45] SPEAKER_01: And um, whereas when you're in open water, you're kind of arching your back for 50 minutes at a time, and that can put pressure on those same nerves that are I'm kind of that are causing the spasms.
[10:58] SPEAKER_01: And so, really, kind of the the thought it moving forward um for Lake Placid is to really um work on strengthening my core and focusing on adjusting my body position um to hopefully kind of release some of the pressure on those nerves during the open water swim.
[11:14] SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of where we think we're at.
[11:16] SPEAKER_01: Um, hopefully that wasn't too complex.
[11:19] SPEAKER_01: Um but but we'll I mean only time will tell.
[11:22] SPEAKER_01: This is something that only happens um in races, is kind of been the the frustrating thing.
[11:28] SPEAKER_01: Um and so only racing will kind of let us know what's going on.
[11:33] SPEAKER_00: I think that was going to be my next line of questioning anyway, that you've kind of 80% answered.
[11:39] SPEAKER_00: So you've done since Kona last year, where you were really incredible, um and and then you go to 70.3 world championships and have the cramping.
[11:49] SPEAKER_00: So you've had it at 70.3 worlds and then Texas and then St.
[11:52] SPEAKER_00: George and now Cannes.
[11:53] SPEAKER_00: So you've had it in your last four races.
[11:55] SPEAKER_00: Uh are they the only four times it's happened to you, or if you try hard enough, have you been able to bring it on in training as well?
[12:02] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um, you know, I actually did have like a smaller event in Lake Placid, believe it or not.
[12:11] SPEAKER_01: Coming out of the swim um last year I fell um kind of like on the sand in Lake Placid, and my elbow kind of went into one of my quads, and I was in so I was like on the verge of of cramping, kind of on the run to the bike.
[12:28] SPEAKER_01: But thankfully for Lake Placid, you start going downhill immediately.
[12:33] SPEAKER_01: And I think because of that, I was able to salvage it and kind of like get the legs moving without necessarily pushing power, um, where I was able to kind of kind of save it.
[12:45] SPEAKER_01: Um and then yeah, we didn't have any problems in Kona, so it's like, but like Lake Placid, I think was kind of uh the start of something uh of this problem, but that I got lucky and that it didn't kind of tip over the edge.
[12:59] SPEAKER_01: Um, and then in terms of like training, um not really.
[13:03] SPEAKER_01: Um I have had problems uh after like lots of travel in the past, where like if I traveled a lot, um I would kind of get spasms, but that like I get spasms like running after like lots of travel.
[13:17] SPEAKER_01: Um but I've never I've never had problems um, you know, kind of after a swim session or during a swim session like I do in a race.
[13:26] SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's go to Cairns now.
[13:27] SPEAKER_00: And you already gave like probably 50% of the race report.
[13:31] SPEAKER_00: So maybe just um let's pick up from where you left off.
[13:34] SPEAKER_00: You were coming into the the back end of the ride where you caught everyone except for Nick Thompson and Ben Hill.
[13:39] SPEAKER_00: Talk to me about what happened from then.
[13:42] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um I think you know the the key moment for me in that race was um kind of on on the it was probably about 50k to go of the bike um when I was able to catch um a group with like Mike Phillips and a couple other guys because I had kind of seen throughout the race that they were near the front, that they were within like call it two minutes of the leader.
[14:04] SPEAKER_01: And so when I caught them, I was like, oh, like I'm I'm in this um and there's a chance.
[14:09] SPEAKER_01: And so that was like a big morale boost for me.
[14:12] SPEAKER_01: Um, because obviously there's nothing um uh more, I guess, frustrating or kind of demotivating than like putting in all of this work and not being able to pull guys back for one reason or the other.
[14:24] SPEAKER_01: So it was a huge, huge boost um to actually know that that that hard work was paying off.
[14:30] SPEAKER_01: And so then I got into T2 and learned that I was about a minute behind whoever was in second and about three minutes behind whoever was in first.
[14:42] SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, like like game on.
[14:44] SPEAKER_01: Um like I I'm in this, but also like at the same time, like the transition from bike, once you've had these spasms, the transition from the bike to the run, you never really know exactly what's gonna happen.
[14:56] SPEAKER_01: And so um it was like game on, but also like um we're just gonna have to see what happens.
[15:00] SPEAKER_01: And thankfully it was it was good things.
[15:03] SPEAKER_01: And um, from the start of the run, uh like things were feeling really good.
[15:08] SPEAKER_01: And um, so like my my plan all along was to kind of quote unquote fur float the first lap and then build from there and um was pretty much able to do that.
[15:18] SPEAKER_01: And near the end of the second lap, people were telling me, like, hey, like Nick Thompson, Nick, you know, you're starting to put time in Nick Thompson.
[15:26] SPEAKER_01: And and so then I kind of made the mental commitment that like, okay, I'm gonna catch him on the third lap.
[15:32] SPEAKER_01: Um, and so really kind of put the like you know, dug deep for that and was able to catch him near the end of the third lap.
[15:38] SPEAKER_01: And then the last 40 minutes in the fourth lap was just about survival, and um, especially the last 10 to 15 minutes, that's where um like when I they were excruciatingly painful, and I was truly worried that like I was just gonna collapse um at any moment, like that the legs were just gonna give out.
[15:55] SPEAKER_01: Um and so, but was was able to hold on and and get across the finish line, um, which was which was really incredible.
[16:03] SPEAKER_01: And I think the I think uh the best example of how uh deep I was digging is that when I came across the finish line, I thought that I was smiling.
[16:12] SPEAKER_01: Um I was trying to smile and I was definitely very much enjoying the moment, but the all the pictures would say um the contrary and that like it's just like it's just expressions of pain and grimacing.
[16:24] SPEAKER_01: So I guess that's what I was truly feeling.
[16:27] SPEAKER_00: Uh that's Iron Man though, isn't it?
[16:29] SPEAKER_00: Um Sam Appledon was on our podcast and he kind of asked the question why are more pros not coming out to do Iron Man cans?
[16:38] SPEAKER_00: Because the fields are quite a bit weaker than, say, Iron Man Frankfurt, but everyone's going to Iron Man Frankfurt.
[16:43] SPEAKER_00: And I think another example is of that is Iron Man Texas, which you did, which was a very, very, very strong field, men and women.
[16:50] SPEAKER_00: Um in your experience, having done one of probably the two or three strongest races of the year at Texas at the start of the year, and having almost identical problems at Cairns, uh like uh like with the cramping and then it coming back on the bike and being able to run pretty well, um what what's your view on that?
[17:08] SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like did you feel like the race at Cairns was as weak relative to, say, a Texas as maybe some people are hypothesizing they are?
[17:17] SPEAKER_00: And did you feel like it was um like something that you wanted to go and do because you felt like you might be able to get a get a win that you might not be able to at other races?
[17:27] SPEAKER_01: Um so to answer your your second question, uh winning was definitely not the goal of Cans at all.
[17:33] SPEAKER_01: Um the reason why we decided to do Cans is um to focus on this this cramping opportunity, this cramping problem and figure out and just get another race under the belt.
[17:44] SPEAKER_01: Um, because we knew that this would only be solved um by racing, and we didn't want to, like I didn't have a world champ slot, and we didn't want to basically leave all the eggs in the like plastic basket.
[17:57] SPEAKER_01: Um and so that was really the main motivation for Cans is like let's just get another opportunity to race and really truly thought nothing about the field.
[18:06] SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I certainly think like there wasn't quite maybe there wasn't quite the bike power that there was at Texas.
[18:14] SPEAKER_01: Um, but the course is also different in that like, you know, it's not quite as much of a draft fest as Texas is.
[18:20] SPEAKER_01: Um there was really, really strong headwinds in that course, and the core the the surface of the road is a little bit um rougher than Texas.
[18:29] SPEAKER_01: And so I think those things contributed to like things breaking up a little bit.
[18:33] SPEAKER_01: But I mean, like, I I also certainly think it was not as strong of a field as Texas.
[18:37] SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, that's probably mainly because Australia is obviously really hard to get to and there's consequences to travel and and all that.
[18:45] SPEAKER_01: But like at the end of the day, I went into that race thinking like, okay, I'm either gonna be off the front or off the back.
[18:53] SPEAKER_01: And so in in many regards, my race plan didn't didn't really change very much um based on who was there.
[19:00] SPEAKER_01: Um, because at the end of the day, like I want to be the best athlete that I can be, and it doesn't really matter to me who's there versus not, um, because I think the best athlete would be the one that can do their own race um and not be dependent on others to carry them through it.
[19:17] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
[19:18] SPEAKER_00: And so uh maybe compare it for me.
[19:21] SPEAKER_00: You um did Texas and you came 15th, and then you won Cairns.
[19:25] SPEAKER_00: So they obviously seem poles apart if you just look at the results list.
[19:29] SPEAKER_00: But then if you dive into it a little bit deeper, you rode pretty much the same kind of time.
[19:34] SPEAKER_00: You swam in very similar positions, maybe Cairns, you're in a bit of a better position out of the swim.
[19:39] SPEAKER_00: And then you did run faster at Cairns, but I do think the Cairns course is probably about a four or five minute faster run course compared to to Texas.
[19:47] SPEAKER_00: So maybe you still ran slightly better at Cairns.
[19:50] SPEAKER_00: Would would what would this performance at Cairns, in your opinion, have gotten you at say a race like Texas?
[19:57] SPEAKER_01: Um, so I mean I think like in Texas, like I think the big thing is that I was instead of being handicapped for like 15 to 30 minutes on the bike, like I was in Cairns, I was handicapped for a solid two hours.
[20:10] SPEAKER_01: Um and like in in can in Texas it it quite literally took me two hours to be able to push even like close to my goal power, and uh it was probably until three hours before I could push what actually like I'm capable of, whereas in Cans it only took about 30 minutes.
[20:27] SPEAKER_01: So that's like a big that's that's a big part of the difference.
[20:30] SPEAKER_01: And then um, you know, why why the run in Cans was so much better than in Texas, I don't really know.
[20:38] SPEAKER_01: I think I think just like I think the work that we did after Texas really helped reduce the what we would call in medicine the sequelae or the kind of the aftermath of the cramping.
[20:50] SPEAKER_01: Whereas in Texas, I think like even when I was able to get back, I think I was probably only operating at 70% of my potential.
[20:58] SPEAKER_01: Whereas I felt like in Cannes it was like more like 90 to 95%.
[21:03] SPEAKER_01: Um and so in my mind, like the the performance in Texas is not even comparable to the performance in Cannes because like just how I was performing was completely different, and how the cramping impacted things was was completely different.
[21:18] SPEAKER_01: So I mean I'd I'd like to think that like the performance in Cannes, like probably would have been top five at Texas, but I mean it's imp it's impossible to know.
[21:27] SPEAKER_01: Um especially because Texas was very much a race driven by dynamics within the pro field, whereas Cannes was a lot more kind of solo efforts.
[21:39] SPEAKER_01: And so that's just like totally different racing.
[21:42] SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's really hard to predict.
[21:46] SPEAKER_00: I've always received heaps of messages from people who listen to this podcast and are frustrated about how inconvenient it is to watch Trithorn or how annoying some aspects of trying to watch Triton are.
[21:56] SPEAKER_00: In the US, you're paying for one streaming service to watch Iron Man and sitting through ads.
[22:00] SPEAKER_00: And I get lots of messages about how for some races you can't even watch the replay of it after it's finished.
[22:05] SPEAKER_00: And then in the UK, you're paying for another streaming service to watch T100.
[22:09] SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, in countries like Australia, you can watch both Iron Man and T100 for free on YouTube with way less ads, and it's just super convenient.
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[24:47] SPEAKER_00: It's completely risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee.
[24:51] SPEAKER_00: Um, the link to go and get it for yourself is also in the description of this episode.
[24:57] SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about your training for a bit here, Matt.
[25:00] SPEAKER_00: So you said that you did some really good training at the start of 2025, maybe end of 2024, in preparation for this year.
[25:07] SPEAKER_00: And we're seeing that like it cans, like you run 239, that's a very fast view.
[25:12] SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure off the top of my head, that is your fastest marathon.
[25:15] SPEAKER_00: I know you you ran well at Texas the first time you did it, but I still think you're a few minutes off that, weren't you?
[25:20] SPEAKER_00: So you're you're a 230 X guy now on the marathon, which shows that you have been doing some great training.
[25:26] SPEAKER_00: And when you were able to ride after the cramping, you rode really strong as well, and obviously swimming really strong if you're coming out of the water with um riddle and hamburger.
[25:35] SPEAKER_00: So talk to me about the training block that you've done at the start of 2025 to set you up for these performances in the face of the adversity that you're going through.
[25:45] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean, I think one of the big things that I've learned over the last six months is that um you don't necessarily have to do everything by the book in order to put together good training.
[25:56] SPEAKER_01: So arguably the period of time from like January to now on paper is kind of the worst possible setting um for performance.
[26:07] SPEAKER_01: Like I was in I was in clinical rotations until basically May 1st, um, which meant that like I was getting up early, like 4 a.m., doing my first workout, leaving for the hospital by 6 a.m.
[26:20] SPEAKER_01: I'd get home, I'd be on my feet all day, um, and then would get home somewhere between 3 and 6 um in the afternoonslash evening, and then would have to do another workout, and then would get to bed hopefully by 9 if I was lucky.
[26:35] SPEAKER_01: So like I was I was on my feet all day.
[26:39] SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I did my best to hydrate the best that I could, but like, you know, not necessarily being able to eat or drink as much as you would ideally, um, and then certainly not getting enough sleep.
[26:51] SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I was, you know, on paper, you would expect that the training would not go well.
[26:56] SPEAKER_01: And even myself, I I would didn't necessarily expect the training to go well, but objectively, like it went really, really well.
[27:03] SPEAKER_01: Um and I guess I just chopped that up to I don't know, consistency and um focusing on the things that you can control, I think is is a big thing.
[27:15] SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, certainly like sleep is everyone knows sleep is really important for athletic performance.
[27:20] SPEAKER_01: I know that I've written like papers on it.
[27:23] SPEAKER_01: And um, but like at the end of the day, like I it was kind of out of my control how much sleep I got.
[27:31] SPEAKER_01: And so it was just something that like I was like, okay, I'm gonna try and get as much as I can, but like I'm not gonna like stress about if I don't get enough and and just work on it and just move forward.
[27:41] SPEAKER_01: So um very atypical.
[27:44] SPEAKER_01: I was still probably putting, I don't know, averaging about 20 hours a week uh of training and just really kind of my coach and I were in really close communication with um the load management and everything, and um and yeah, and it went super well.
[28:00] SPEAKER_01: Like I it wasn't necessarily anything drastically different than what we had ever done before.
[28:05] SPEAKER_01: I think it was just very intentional, and um, but what was very different is what leading into cans, which is what everyone loved to talk about, is that like starting three weeks before the race, I was on a cruise for for a full week um with my significant other's family, and um, you know, kind of balancing vacation with uh with Iron Man training, and uh we all made it work and um super grateful for the support that they gave me and allowing me to bring a bike on the cruise and and kind of you know do some workouts, you know, early in the morning or kind of during the downtime in the afternoon, and and you know, at the end of the day it all worked out.
[28:46] SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I I it would have been a great vacation even if cans didn't go well.
[28:51] SPEAKER_01: Um, but obviously the uh cans also going well, you know, makes it all that much better.
[28:58] SPEAKER_00: Matt, I've got to be honest with you.
[29:00] SPEAKER_00: I kind of associate cruise vacations with retirees and don't really see the attraction of them myself.
[29:07] SPEAKER_00: I feel I feel they're they're maybe not uh something you should start dipping your toes in until you're at least probably 65, maybe even 70.
[29:16] SPEAKER_00: Why did you go on this cruise?
[29:17] SPEAKER_00: Did you like were you just compelled to for family reasons, or are you actually a cruise guy?
[29:22] SPEAKER_01: No, I definitely say I'm I'm probably not a cruise guy, but um it was a family vacation and I was invited to go on it.
[29:29] SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I think the one of the huge benefits of a cruise is that it can bring people of all generations together and um provide activities for everyone.
[29:39] SPEAKER_01: And so yes, the the average age was probably 55 or 65 on the cruise, but there was a lot of families too, and because there's you know, there's there's lots of ice cream for the little kids and lots of activities kind of um on the cruise ship as well as well as kind of when you when you go to port.
[29:57] SPEAKER_01: So um it was a really great opportunity for us to kind of all kind of spend family time together without having to worry about the hassles of cooking meals or you know, really scheduling things to do and and whatnot.
[30:09] SPEAKER_01: And so um in that regard, it it certainly like was very very you know, it was a very successful vacation um because it got us all together and and we had a great time.
[30:19] SPEAKER_00: So did you did you feel like I I assume you're doing all your running on a treadmill?
[30:23] SPEAKER_00: I I don't know, maybe you're running around the pool deck.
[30:25] SPEAKER_00: I have seen people literally do that on cruises, which I find just crazy.
[30:29] SPEAKER_00: Um, but I assume you were doing it all on the treadmill and then all of your cycling you're obviously doing on the trainer.
[30:34] SPEAKER_00: Did you feel like in that period, did it did it make you realize maybe running on the treaddy and riding on the trainer full time could be very beneficial?
[30:45] SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I mean in many regards it wasn't necessarily that different.
[30:49] SPEAKER_01: Um the main de difference was that like you would you would get some incline and decline as the ship rolled.
[30:56] SPEAKER_01: Really?
[30:57] SPEAKER_01: So it was mainly maybe maybe a little bit more uh realistic than a normal uh run run on a treadmill because you'd be like you'd like be like, oh, I feel like I'm going uphill, and then you're like, oh, I feel like I'm going downhill.
[31:08] SPEAKER_00: Was there ever any moments where you like feel unstable on the treadmill because of it?
[31:13] SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, no.
[31:14] SPEAKER_01: Um overall we had pretty pretty calm seas for the most part, but like certainly I would imagine that like if it was a little bit crazier of an ocean, uh a little bit rougher, that it you know, you might not want to do it.
[31:28] SPEAKER_01: But it was fine.
[31:29] SPEAKER_01: Um, but I mean honestly, like I do let's see here.
[31:34] SPEAKER_01: I mean, probably 70, probably do 60 to 70 percent of my running on a treadmill just to begin with, and I probably do 70 to 80 percent of my riding on a trainer just because of like a combination of the weather in Ohio, especially in the winter, um, as well as um the efficiency of it, especially with biking.
[31:56] SPEAKER_01: Like it's just it's so, so much more time efficient for me to do my workouts on the trainer.
[32:03] SPEAKER_01: Um, that I pretty much reserve going out on the road once, maybe twice a week.
[32:07] SPEAKER_01: Um, and I save that for like my really long rides because like it takes me basically I call it 30 to 40 minutes of riding to get to good roads.
[32:17] SPEAKER_01: And it's probably 20 to 30 minutes of driving to get to good roads.
[32:21] SPEAKER_01: So like it just doesn't when you're as time constrained as I am, it just doesn't make sense to ride outside all the time.
[32:30] SPEAKER_01: Um in, you know, obviously in the winter, uh with the snow and ice, and and and also like if I'm riding before I go into the hospital, that means that I'm riding in four at 4 a.m.
[32:43] SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's just and then finishing kind of right at the start of rush hour.
[32:47] SPEAKER_01: And so it also becomes a safety thing um in terms of why I do so much stuff on the trainer.
[32:54] SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah.
[32:56] SPEAKER_00: Makes total sense.
[32:57] SPEAKER_00: Um give me your like go-to or favorite two bulk workouts on the trainer and two like favorite or go-to two treadmill sessions.
[33:07] SPEAKER_01: Um so I think like treadmill stuff, like my my favorite stuff is when we do stuff at an incline.
[33:12] SPEAKER_01: And that's just like I feel like that we feel like that gets really good at activation for me and helps build a lot of strength.
[33:20] SPEAKER_00: So give me the example of the session.
[33:21] SPEAKER_00: What what what might it actually be?
[33:24] SPEAKER_01: Um anywhere from four to eight minutes um at like a five to eight percent incline, um, and do that like five or so times.
[33:37] SPEAKER_01: Um like it it kind of varies.
[33:40] SPEAKER_01: I like every every week is different.
[33:42] SPEAKER_01: We don't really repeat workouts, um which I really like.
[33:45] SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, kind of in that area of like a five to eight percent incline um for four to ten minutes, kind of depending on where I'm at in the training cycle and everything.
[33:54] SPEAKER_00: And um and how do you control intensity of that?
[33:59] SPEAKER_01: Uh so we you know, we do we do lactate, and so it's a combination of heart rate and lactate um kind of titrate.
[34:06] SPEAKER_01: You kind of use both to titrate it um to make sure you don't overdo it, um is is the big thing because obviously like you don't want it, you don't want it you want it to be hard, but you don't want it to be too hard.
[34:17] SPEAKER_01: So um yeah.
[34:20] SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
[34:21] SPEAKER_00: And then um do you do like so you got you you do that that's kind of a session that you love to do where you're you're doing intervals using incline as the thing to to make it intense and and I assume I assume there's also other factors there with the incline.
[34:35] SPEAKER_00: Like, do you do you think that if you did that same session, still using heart rate and lactate to to titrate the intensity control, as you call it, which is so medical of you, it's not even funny.
[34:47] SPEAKER_00: Um, do you is there reasons why you don't also love doing that at say 0% incline or 0.5% incline?
[34:55] SPEAKER_01: Um no, like we'll we'll certainly do um kind of similar workouts at 0.5% incline.
[35:02] SPEAKER_01: Um, but like then you're just running much faster.
[35:06] SPEAKER_01: And so you're kind of at that point you're working more turnover, um, whereas when you're doing incline, you're working more strength.
[35:13] SPEAKER_01: So it's just kind of different things.
[35:15] SPEAKER_01: Um, and certainly like both, but I feel like I get a lot of benefit from from the incline stuff, especially kind of more in the off season when we're looking to kind of build strength and and kind of durability.
[35:26] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[35:26] SPEAKER_00: And so aside from that, is there something else that you love doing?
[35:29] SPEAKER_00: Like is there another kind of session that you love doing on the treadie?
[35:33] SPEAKER_01: Um I've had I've had some really this is gonna sound really weird.
[35:37] SPEAKER_01: I've had some really enjoyable kind of like sub-threshold hour and 45, two-hour long runs on treadmills.
[35:46] SPEAKER_00: Mate, that's psychopath territory.
[35:48] SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
[35:48] SPEAKER_01: I've like like I I often I often do it Sunday morning um if I'm gonna do a session like that.
[35:55] SPEAKER_01: And um, I don't know, I as crazy as it sounds, like I've had some some really good runs where um you know it's like one four 140 heart rate um for like two hours and uh and then I'm done at like 7 a.m.
[36:12] SPEAKER_01: or 7.30, and then I have like the day.
[36:15] SPEAKER_01: So um I think it's a combination of like the feeling of accomplishment of like, oh, I did 18 miles or 19 miles on the treadmill and it's 7.30, as well as like the flow state that you just get in.
[36:28] SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, I know it sounds a little bit psychotic.
[36:32] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[36:32] SPEAKER_00: So for those who aren't uh using freedom units, that's kind of like up to 30k on the treadmill at sub-threshold.
[36:39] SPEAKER_00: What what's your definition of sub-threshold for a session like that?
[36:42] SPEAKER_01: Um somewhere between like 135 and 145, like 130 to 145 heart rate.
[36:49] SPEAKER_01: Okay.
[36:49] SPEAKER_01: For like is is kind of what we would look at for the for that.
[36:52] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so for most people, that's kind of like up, you know, mid to upper zone two, potentially dropping into some zone three for some of it, but but it's it's kind of in that in that area, right?
[37:04] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
[37:06] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, makes sense.
[37:06] SPEAKER_00: And then um with your your indoor training on the bike, same thing.
[37:10] SPEAKER_00: What are some like go-to sessions for you?
[37:13] SPEAKER_01: Um I I really enjoy um like an like an Iron Man type power um workout for 60 to 90 minutes.
[37:24] SPEAKER_01: So it'll end up being like a two and a half to three hour workout where you do a warm-up and then kind of do a 60 to 90 minute build, kind of really pushing the last 45 minutes kind of like Iron Man power or just above it.
[37:39] SPEAKER_01: Um I definitely really like those because I don't know, again, like you just kind of get into a rhythm, and um, that's what I think that I enjoy the most about Iron Man training is is the ability to kind of get in a rhythm and get into that flow state where time, you know, just kind of goes by.
[37:56] SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
[37:59] SPEAKER_00: I personally think that all triathletes or endurance athletes in general should be taking creatine daily.
[38:05] SPEAKER_00: However, not all creatines are created equal.
[38:08] SPEAKER_00: And in the case of Pillar Performance's creatine monohydrate, it features single origin creepure made in Germany, which is the purest form of creatine monohydrate available on the market.
[38:17] SPEAKER_00: And unlike most brands, it's informed sports certified.
[38:21] SPEAKER_00: So, as a triathlet, why should you be taking creatine daily?
[38:25] SPEAKER_00: Well, firstly, energy production.
[38:28] SPEAKER_00: Creatine helps replenish ATP, which is the body's primary energy source.
[38:32] SPEAKER_00: This means higher anaerobic capacity and better overall athletic performance.
[38:37] SPEAKER_00: Enhanced recovery is the second thing.
[38:39] SPEAKER_00: Creatine reduces muscle damage and inflammation while promoting faster glycogen replenishment.
[38:45] SPEAKER_00: This leads to quicker recovery between training sessions and races.
[38:48] SPEAKER_00: It's it's probably, in my opinion, the main reason why you should use it.
[38:52] SPEAKER_00: Just the in hugely enhanced recovery that it leads to.
[38:56] SPEAKER_00: And then thirdly, is the cognitive benefits.
[38:59] SPEAKER_00: Creatine supports brain function, reducing mental fatigue and improving improving focus throughout endurance events, but also just day-to-day in your life.
[39:07] SPEAKER_00: If you're trying to get up early and train and then go to work and then um look after your family and spend quality time with the people you care about, maybe even train a second time.
[39:16] SPEAKER_00: I mean, you just need to have the cognitive ability to do so.
[39:19] SPEAKER_00: And creatine definitely helps that.
[39:21] SPEAKER_00: So if you would like to try some creatine monohydrate for yourself, which I highly recommend you do, then head to pillarperformance.shop or for North American listeners, listeners, head to thefeed.com and enter the code TTH for 15% off all first purchases.
[39:35] SPEAKER_00: That's code TTH for 15% off all first purchases.
[39:41] SPEAKER_00: Last year, after Kona Matt, me and you did a podcast together, um, and you became a little bit famous amongst like die hard listeners of the show because we beeped out you the power number that you gave uh for for Kona.
[39:54] SPEAKER_00: And so I know the number, but but no one else does.
[39:57] SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna are you gonna divulge some power numbers on a on a session like that for us?
[40:02] SPEAKER_01: Uh no, probably not.
[40:05] SPEAKER_01: We'll keep it we'll keep it mysterious just for the key the the purpose of keeping it mysterious.
[40:10] SPEAKER_00: Uh real Taylor nib style.
[40:12] SPEAKER_00: I like it.
[40:13] SPEAKER_00: I like it.
[40:13] SPEAKER_00: Um do you do any like VO2 max work on the on the bike on the indoor trainer?
[40:18] SPEAKER_01: No.
[40:19] SPEAKER_01: Um at one point we did and um we kind of got away from it.
[40:23] SPEAKER_01: Um just because I don't know, I I don't think that we felt like we were seeing a sufficient benefit from it.
[40:28] SPEAKER_00: Wow, okay, that's interesting.
[40:29] SPEAKER_01: And like at the at the end of the day, like my specialty is Iron Man, and so you probably shouldn't be going VO2 Max um during a race.
[40:38] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is that is okay.
[40:40] SPEAKER_00: So when you when it comes to your year, or like let's say maybe just these first six months of your year, how do you kind of periodize your training, or or do you not really periodize it?
[40:51] SPEAKER_00: Do you more just do the same kind of training for the entire build?
[40:56] SPEAKER_01: Um that is fully up to my coach.
[40:58] SPEAKER_01: I just do whatever he says.
[41:00] SPEAKER_01: And that is that is the beauty of how I I think that I've been able to progress as much as I have, is I've pretty much I don't have the mental capacity with all the other things that I have going on to think about training.
[41:11] SPEAKER_01: I'll give feedback of like, hey, this went well, or this didn't well went well, go well, or I was feeling this or that.
[41:17] SPEAKER_01: But like by and large, like he just has control um it because I fully trust him and fully believe in kind of what he gives me.
[41:25] SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, every now and again I'll be like, oh, I think we should, you know, maybe tweak this or or that.
[41:30] SPEAKER_01: But like by like I'd say 95%, it's just he tells me what to do and I do it.
[41:35] SPEAKER_01: Um because again, I just don't every decision you make in the course of a day um has a cost.
[41:43] SPEAKER_01: Um, and this is why some people wear the same thing every day, because like even something as simple as deciding what to wear in the morning um impacts kind of the energy and the mental capacity that you have for that day.
[41:57] SPEAKER_01: And um like I don't want to have to think about what I'm gonna do from a training standpoint.
[42:03] SPEAKER_01: And you know, I've been working with Andrew for uh about four years now, and so I like he knows me super well, and um I fully trust him, and so I have no and this is like how we've always operated.
[42:16] SPEAKER_01: I I tell him, like, hey, like here's how much I have time I have on this day and this day and this day, and then he creates the plan, and then I do it.
[42:23] SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm very content with with that um setup.
[42:28] SPEAKER_00: Before we we got onto this, you touched on sleep and the importance of sleep, and you you kind of talked about the study that you'd done on sleep.
[42:36] SPEAKER_00: I I want to ask you some questions about this.
[42:38] SPEAKER_00: So I was talking to someone who uh uh has tested positive for for uh taking drugs in in the past, and they said that so many people don't realize that they could dope themselves if they just fix their sleeping.
[42:53] SPEAKER_00: And it really made me think.
[42:54] SPEAKER_00: I I like it was quite a quite an interesting thing for a for a convicted doper to say.
[43:00] SPEAKER_00: But then I thought about, and it kind of makes sense, right?
[43:02] SPEAKER_00: Because when you sleep, that's when, you know, um, like what adequate sleep is linked to higher human growth hormone levels, higher testosterone levels in men and women, not just in men.
[43:13] SPEAKER_00: And like during slow wave sleep, um, like the more slow wave slow wave sleep you get, the higher your human growth hormone is, the more deep sleep or REM sleep you get, the higher your testosterone is.
[43:24] SPEAKER_00: And on the flip side, the less you get, the lower your human growth hormone, the lower your testosterone.
[43:29] SPEAKER_00: So it really is, if you're sleeping enough in line with uh natural circadian rhythm and getting a lot of deep sleep, you are gonna wake up and then over time have higher testosterone levels, higher human growth hormone levels, which means you're gonna be recovering from your training better, adapting to your training better, you know, increase lean muscle mass, all these kind of great things, more energy throughout a day.
[43:50] SPEAKER_00: Can you talk to me about that and maybe educate me a little bit more deeply about all of that?
[43:56] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean, you've you've hit by far the vast majority.
[44:00] SPEAKER_01: Of it in that in my opinion, at the end of the day, all the research points towards you need a minimum of seven hours of sleep.
[44:11] SPEAKER_01: The recommendation is seven to nine hours of sleep, kind of for an average person.
[44:15] SPEAKER_01: I kind of subscribe to the belief that like an athlete probably needs potentially another hour on top of that.
[44:22] SPEAKER_01: So an athlete probably should be getting eight to ten hours of sleep per night to really optimize performance.
[44:27] SPEAKER_01: But like basically all the research has shown from a cognitive standpoint, mental health standpoint, physical recovery standpoint, et cetera, that if you get less than seven hours of sleep, you start to um have consequences from it.
[44:40] SPEAKER_01: You might not notice it though.
[44:41] SPEAKER_01: So there's kind of this effect where basically, like if you're constantly sleep deprived, you adjust to that new baseline and you get used to operating at a sub kind of optimal level, but you think that it's totally fine.
[44:57] SPEAKER_01: Um and you just don't know it because it it happens over time and you don't notice the difference necessarily.
[45:04] SPEAKER_01: Um, but from an objective standpoint, everything points towards you need you you need a minimum of seven hours of sleep per night um in order to get like all the benefits of sleep.
[45:14] SPEAKER_01: And so it's certainly like, you know, definitely one of the most important things.
[45:18] SPEAKER_01: Um but I think that you know the other thing you didn't quite touch on is increasingly research is showing that sleep consistency, so that's the variation in when you go to bed and when you wake up, um, in some cases can be more important than the amount of sleep that you're getting.
[45:34] SPEAKER_01: Um so for example, like if you're getting eight hours of sleep every night, but you're going to bed at 6 p.m.
[45:40] SPEAKER_01: one night and then midnight the next night, and then back to like 6 30 p.m.
[45:45] SPEAKER_01: the next night, that constant shift in when you kind of are going to bed and go waking up actually has pretty significant effects on your bot on your body because it impacts your circadian rhythm.
[45:56] SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, like I I I'm not I don't know of any study yet that has shown this.
[46:02] SPEAKER_01: Um, and so there's a huge caveat to this, but I think that there's an argument that, like, hey, if you're only gonna be able to get seven hours of sleep per night, um, make sure that it's really consistent to optimize it.
[46:13] SPEAKER_01: And that is the one area that I did very well in um over the past six months because I had to wake up between basically four and four thirty pretty much every day.
[46:23] SPEAKER_01: Um, and then even on the weekends, I didn't sleep in past like 5.30 um because I didn't want to have that those big swings in my circadian rhythm.
[46:32] SPEAKER_01: And so maybe that's part of the reason why um I didn't like have quite as many consequences from from the not quite as much sleep.
[46:41] SPEAKER_01: Um But but yeah, I mean I think that's the biggest, I think that's the biggest thing is like, you know, making sure that the environment that you sleep in, like if you're not able to get enough sleep, making sure the environment that you're sleeping in is optimal.
[46:53] SPEAKER_01: So like it's not super noisy, it's very dark, you have your, you know, you have blackout curtains or you wear an eye mask, um, and you know, you don't have any lights on in the room, even even the little indicator lights on an alarm clock or on a phone or on a charger have actually been shown to disrupt um your sleep.
[47:15] SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you want to kind of optimize that sleep environment um as well as kind of optimize your consistency if you're not able to get enough quantity of sleep.
[47:25] SPEAKER_00: So, Matt, my understanding of circadian rhythm and sleep, and I kind of touched on it, but my understanding of it is that uh there's a lot of hormones in your body that are to an extent, I wouldn't say controlled by, because they're not controlled by, but they're they're impacted by your circadian rhythm.
[47:44] SPEAKER_00: And so human growth hormone and cortisol and testosterone and and like a lot of sex hormones are uh are impacted by your circadian rhythm.
[47:53] SPEAKER_00: So if you can have sleep consistency, so like be going to bed by 10 p.m.
[47:58] SPEAKER_00: every night and be up at 7 a.m.
[48:00] SPEAKER_00: every morning, for example, and do that consistently, then your growth hormone, human growth hormone, your testosterone are gonna be higher over time.
[48:09] SPEAKER_00: And things like your cortisol levels, so your your natural stress hormone is going to be lower over time.
[48:14] SPEAKER_00: And am I correct in assuming that if you do have that regular and consistent circadian rhythm, so same sleep time, same wake-up time, you are gonna have higher amounts of positive um hormones when it comes to performance like growth hormone and testosterone, and you are gonna have lower uh levels of of stress hormone like cortisol.
[48:35] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, overall, like obviously there's there's not like you're not gonna go, you're not, you're not gonna triple the amount of testosterone you have or or anything, or but like from you know, kind of within natural ranges.
[48:46] SPEAKER_01: Um, I would certainly say that like my understanding of everything is that that's true.
[48:51] SPEAKER_01: Um and so, but like obviously you're never gonna get to know cortisol and you're not gonna like all of a sudden have an infinite amount of testosterone, but certainly like it's it's you will help optimize it um kind of within natural, natural abilities by like having a very consistent sleep schedule.
[49:09] SPEAKER_00: Yep, makes sense.
[49:11] SPEAKER_00: And um Lionel Sanders obviously released a video talking about uh his health.
[49:16] SPEAKER_00: He talked about a lot in that.
[49:17] SPEAKER_00: He talked about uh him potentially having red S, him uh struggling with some erectile dysfunction, he talked about his diet, he talked about his sleep and his recovery.
[49:29] SPEAKER_00: He touched on a lot.
[49:30] SPEAKER_00: You're obviously getting yourself into the medical field and you're becoming a really successful professional triathlete.
[49:37] SPEAKER_00: Do you have things that you use to measure your health?
[49:40] SPEAKER_00: Like, do you have things like Lionel talked about nighttime erections, morning erections, sex drive?
[49:46] SPEAKER_00: Um, like, do you have things like that that you stay on top of and and check in with to make sure that you are healthy as a professional triathlete?
[49:56] SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, uh like the main thing that I use is like is whoop.
[50:01] SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's mainly just to kind of I will look at my HRV, my which is called heart rate variability, and my resting heart rate.
[50:09] SPEAKER_01: And those are really the two main metrics that I will use um to look at things.
[50:13] SPEAKER_01: And then I honestly think that there is a lot that can be learned by just having a strong awareness for your body um and knowing when things are starting to go south.
[50:23] SPEAKER_01: And I don't I don't really do much beyond that.
[50:26] SPEAKER_01: Um I think you know, blood tests, I think they they can be in certain circumstances when things go wrong, they could potentially provide a little extra value.
[50:36] SPEAKER_01: But you know, for someone that's healthy, um, I I'm not really sure that they provide that much value because like at the end of the day, like as a healthy triathlete, like I'm probably gonna fall within normal ranges.
[50:49] SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, like I there's just there's not really as someone who's gone through med, you know, gone through medical school, like I started off thinking like, okay, you know, you should measure all of these things, but at the end of the day, like they don't necessarily provide that much value if you're healthy.
[51:07] SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, like spending all this money to uh, you know, look at your blood tests or whatnot and all the time, like the evidence would show my understanding of the evidence is that that doesn't necessarily provide a ton of value unless something has started to go wrong.
[51:22] SPEAKER_01: Um, just because your body does such a good job of keeping things within normal ranges until it no longer can.
[51:29] SPEAKER_01: And so, so for me, it's really like I'll look at HR, I'll look at trends of HRV and resting heart rate over time.
[51:39] SPEAKER_01: And I will also just like take a really good um, you know, inventory of how I'm feeling.
[51:45] SPEAKER_01: Like, do I f do I feel like over the past couple of days or weeks I've you know been a lot moodier, or I've been really tired all the time, or I've always been like, you know, out of normal sore, or kind of had, you know, little aches and niggles every every here and there.
[52:02] SPEAKER_01: And those are kind of the main things that I do.
[52:04] SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also I've been very fortunate in that like I really haven't had I had a stress reaction last year um in my kind of lower left leg, um, which is a precursor to a stress fracture.
[52:15] SPEAKER_01: So like I was probably maybe one or two long runs away from having a full-blown stress fracture.
[52:21] SPEAKER_01: Um, but like I noticed like, okay, this is a new pain that I haven't had before, and I got it checked out um before it got really bad.
[52:30] SPEAKER_00: So you've had these cramping issues to start the year.
[52:33] SPEAKER_00: We can hear from everything you're saying that you're on top of most things.
[52:36] SPEAKER_00: Like you understand performance, you understand how to get the most out of yourself, and you you seem yeah, you seem completely in control, and you're just having this one issue that you know, if it's a nerve thing, and I loved your analogy, like that is as well explained as I think you can.
[52:51] SPEAKER_00: And I think everyone can picture that and understand nerve function a little bit better when it comes to athletic performance.
[52:56] SPEAKER_00: Um, like say everyone's had some like hip or lower back kind of nerve issues, and your your analogy is perfect to describe what's happening.
[53:03] SPEAKER_00: Um, if you can get on top of that, what what does your year look like versus if you can't get on top of that, do you think, when it comes to races you might do and how you approach your year?
[53:14] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I I don't think it will really change that much.
[53:17] SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, for the most part, like obviously adding cans was a semi-last minute decision, but when my coach and I sit down at the beginning of the year, we we generally like to try and come up with a plan and then stick to it for the most part, because I think you can just get in trouble um chasing things.
[53:35] SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, like yeah, like you know, maybe, maybe there's an adjustment that would be made or whatnot if Lake Plastic goes really well or goes poorly, but for the most part, like nothing major, like you know, the the main focus is Lake Plastic and World Champs, and and then we'll kind of take an inventory from there and see if we do any kind of quote unquote postseason races.
[53:57] SPEAKER_01: Um just because like you know, if you there's obviously this fine balance between racing and racing well and also overdoing it.
[54:06] SPEAKER_01: So um you just kind of have to be a little bit careful sometimes.
[54:11] SPEAKER_00: If you're training for any triathlon or running event, you should 1000% start using precision fuel and hydration as your training and race day nutrition.
[54:19] SPEAKER_00: Their best products, in my opinion, are their gels.
[54:22] SPEAKER_00: I love the PF90, PF30, and PF30 caffeine gels, and I also love their flow gel for the bike.
[54:27] SPEAKER_00: All four of those are just amazing products.
[54:29] SPEAKER_00: The thing that separates precision gels from other brands is that they taste great.
[54:34] SPEAKER_00: They just have this really simple, sugary flavor that you don't get sick of.
[54:37] SPEAKER_00: Um, and in combination with that, they also have this texture that goes down really, really easily and doesn't leave you feeling gross and nauseous after taking it.
[54:45] SPEAKER_00: And I know for me, they're kind of two of the biggest factors that I've struggled with in other gels, but with precision, just a really simple, nice, sweet flavour, and they go down so so easily.
[54:55] SPEAKER_00: Um they've also nailed their packaging, which can be a bit of a bugbear of mine, but they've made a really um practical and simple packaging that that doesn't spill out and get everywhere in their smaller jails.
[55:06] SPEAKER_00: And the PF90 literally has an easy-to-use on-race day screw top.
[55:10] SPEAKER_00: And in training, the PF90 is just absolutely incredible if you're doing a long run or if you're out on the bike.
[55:15] SPEAKER_00: Like there's no better jail uh on the market than the PF90, in my opinion.
[55:19] SPEAKER_00: It's just the best.
[55:20] SPEAKER_00: Um, they also make electrolyte tablets that have become a staple in the Triton world.
[55:24] SPEAKER_00: So join the bandwagon, start using precision for your training and racing, and to get a discount code when you do, um, either use the code TTH25, which gets you 15% off the first time you use it, or click the link in this episode description if you want a bigger discount code.
[55:40] SPEAKER_00: Um, it's over on the Triton our Patreon.
[55:43] SPEAKER_00: So the link to the Patreon is in the description of this episode.
[55:45] SPEAKER_00: And there's a 20% off every time you shop at Precision Link if you do sign up for Patreon that you can take advantage of.
[55:54] SPEAKER_00: And you made a comment this year, I believe, about not knowing how much longer you have left in this sport, which is kind of quite crazy because you're young and you're very good, uh, and you've already shown potential to race at the front of the Iron Man World Championships two years in a row.
[56:11] SPEAKER_00: So are you serious about that?
[56:13] SPEAKER_00: Is it is there a real world where in the next couple of years you leave professional triathlon to go and do medicine full-time, or are you kind of just saying that because it's like, you know, you're not sure?
[56:23] SPEAKER_01: Well, it's gonna happen at some point.
[56:25] SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think the question is when.
[56:27] SPEAKER_01: And so um, you know, each each phase, you know, there's a bunch of different phases in medicine and different kind of changes that happen.
[56:37] SPEAKER_01: And no one's ever done what I what I'm currently doing, and so it's very much an uncharted path.
[56:43] SPEAKER_01: And um it's it's impossible to know until you've actually started doing it um whether or not you'll be able to do it.
[56:50] SPEAKER_01: So a great example is like this these past six months, um, starting clinical rotations in January.
[56:58] SPEAKER_01: That was a really big change.
[56:59] SPEAKER_01: And that I went from kind of being more lecture-based and then also being on research time where I had a lot of flexibility with when I could train and kind of had a little bit more control over sleep and and all of those factors, and then going into the hospital where like now I've pretty much completely lost that autonomy and and had to do, you know, some slightly extreme measures in terms of when I woke up and when I was doing workouts in the in at the end of the day.
[57:27] SPEAKER_01: And so I truly was not sure exactly how things were gonna go.
[57:32] SPEAKER_01: Like I had full confidence in my team around me um to, you know, make the best of it.
[57:37] SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it was uncharted territory.
[57:40] SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there are gonna be more in more of those stages.
[57:44] SPEAKER_01: Um, and as someone who wants to do surgical residency, that's gonna be another like huge thing because surgery in the US, surgical residency is like you're in the hospital probably at five and you're gonna get home at seven or eight at night.
[57:59] SPEAKER_01: And you know, it will ebb and flow.
[58:01] SPEAKER_01: There will be harder times and there will be easier times.
[58:04] SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's like it's a big unknown.
[58:06] SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I feel very confident that I have the team around me to make it happen.
[58:11] SPEAKER_01: But also at the end of the day, even I only have 24 hours in a day.
[58:16] SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, you you kind of have to, you have to kind of slice and dice, um, you can only slice and dice so many different ways.
[58:24] SPEAKER_00: Are you really the only person who's gonna have been like going through your, you know, uh time as a med student and then early days as a doctor who's a professional triathlete?
[58:32] SPEAKER_00: Because I know like Lucy Gossage and Alz Vissa are both doctors and have been professional triathletes, but do they not do it together?
[58:39] SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna be the the first to ever do that?
[58:42] SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm not I don't I don't know enough about their specific histories to be able to say that one way or another.
[58:48] SPEAKER_01: Um but I I also know that like the other thing as well is that medical education in different countries is very different.
[58:55] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
[58:56] SPEAKER_01: And and so you know, unfortunately, I I wouldn't say that the US has necessarily the best or the most humane uh medical education system.
[59:05] SPEAKER_01: Um and I think a lot of us would agree with that just in terms of the the pressures that you're under and the stress and everything.
[59:11] SPEAKER_01: So um so I'm not I'm not totally sure.
[59:15] SPEAKER_01: Um there certainly might be.
[59:16] SPEAKER_01: And I I know that there have been successful athletes um in other sports, but obviously triathlon has a uh a different set of time requirements to train appropriately.
[59:29] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, whether you're the first, whether you're the third, whether you're the tenth, doesn't really change that it's bloody impressive and gonna be very, very hard, which takes me to my next question.
[59:39] SPEAKER_00: Like medical school hospitals, uh whether you want to go into private private practice, they're gonna be there until you're we might be living till 150 or to a thousand by the time you know that time comes for you.
[59:53] SPEAKER_00: You can only be a professional triathlete for the next 10 years, and then you're done.
[59:56] SPEAKER_00: Well, why don't you?
[59:57] SPEAKER_00: Why don't you just put off med school for a little bit?
[59:59] SPEAKER_00: You you're at a level where you can make money from professional triathlon.
[1:00:03] SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, Trek, you're on a trek contract already, which is very hard to get come by.
[1:00:07] SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I don't think Mark has any plans of of getting rid of you anytime soon.
[1:00:12] SPEAKER_00: Like, you've got money that can that can be made in triathlon, and you're coming coming off into T2 at the lead of the race pretty much at the Iron Man World Championships.
[1:00:20] SPEAKER_00: Why don't you just go all in on that for 10 years and then be a doctor for the next thousand years of your life?
[1:00:25] SPEAKER_01: Um, well, my exam scores expire at a certain point, so that's the biggest thing holding me back, I guess.
[1:00:30] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[1:00:31] SPEAKER_01: But I I don't know.
[1:00:32] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think like, you know, it's uh honestly, my whole journey in triathlon the past four years has been pretty much just six to twelve months at a time.
[1:00:40] SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's kind of the plan moving forward is six to twelve months at a time, and um, and we'll we'll we'll you know do it as we do it.
[1:00:48] SPEAKER_01: So um so yeah, I don't know.
[1:00:50] SPEAKER_01: I mean I I there's obviously a lot of different ways that it can go, and um, you know, we'll just kind of keep making those decisions as we come.
[1:00:59] SPEAKER_01: Um, because so far it's worked out pretty well.
[1:01:01] SPEAKER_00: But you are saying, because you've you've when you've talked about in the past, you've gone, well, at some point my triathlon will give way to my career as a as a as an MD.
[1:01:10] SPEAKER_00: But you're saying that there is like a slither of hope, like the door's just kind of a little bit open.
[1:01:15] SPEAKER_00: I can see some light in there that it might actually be the opposite, and your career as an MD gives way to your career as a professional long-course triathlete.
[1:01:24] SPEAKER_01: Well, it certainly won't give way.
[1:01:26] SPEAKER_01: I mean, the entirely.
[1:01:28] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the question is delay or not.
[1:01:31] SPEAKER_01: Um, and and and if delay, how much?
[1:01:35] SPEAKER_01: And so because at the end of the day, like I went into medical school because I want to take care of patients, and that is what I feel like my full calling is.
[1:01:45] SPEAKER_01: And, you know, obviously I love triathlon and I love training and and love racing, but at the end of the day, like the calling to treat patients is much stronger than anything I have in terms of racing for triathlon.
[1:01:57] SPEAKER_01: And so, um, and I feel super and actually one of the really amazing things that I feel really, really privileged to be in a position where like I'm kind of being an inspiration to people that you know are doing a full-time job and also training for a triathlon.
[1:02:10] SPEAKER_01: And um I think that's been really, really cool and really, really fulfilling.
[1:02:14] SPEAKER_01: And um, but yeah, at the at the end of the day, like, you know, even even the best of even the best triathletes ever, you know, their career ends at like 45.
[1:02:23] SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, you I know physicians that are still pre you know, still going into the office, you know, in their 80.
[1:02:31] SPEAKER_01: And so um medicine is definitely something you that like I feel like I will do for my whole life.
[1:02:36] SPEAKER_01: And triathlon has a a period and we're still kind of I think figuring out how long that period is, but um you know, we'll we'll figure it out as we go.
[1:02:47] SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, it could be so yeah, like I think like it's it I don't know.
[1:02:53] SPEAKER_01: I I have I'm very much at peace with that and um and like you know, fully on board.
[1:03:00] SPEAKER_01: I think the journey that I've been in within triathlon has been really phenomenal so far and um feel very, very lucky to have had it.
[1:03:08] SPEAKER_00: Mate, I get it.
[1:03:09] SPEAKER_00: I get it 100%.
[1:03:10] SPEAKER_00: Like you got this deep-seated desire to alleviate the suffering of people in the world, improve everyone's health, make a real positive impact on the world and the lives of your patients and their families, and get all the intellectual stimulation that someone as smart as you needs.
[1:03:25] SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's medicine.
[1:03:26] SPEAKER_00: That's going to be great for you.
[1:03:27] SPEAKER_00: You'll have great job security, you'll make good cash for the rest of your life, you'll be you'll be a um probably a multi-millionaire if you go down the the private practice path and and if you're you're a consultant and all that stuff.
[1:03:39] SPEAKER_00: I I like I get it all.
[1:03:41] SPEAKER_00: But also, not many people get the chance to run down a lead drive at the front of the Iron Man World Championships.
[1:03:49] SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you can put aside all that noble stuff, all the all the money, all the all the helping the world, making a positive impact, if you can put all that aside and just think selfishly for a second, you could lead the Iron Man World Championships into a Lee Drive.
[1:04:04] SPEAKER_00: Like that's a that's a special moment, isn't it?
[1:04:07] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, certainly.
[1:04:08] SPEAKER_01: And I I I would certainly say it's definitely a dream.
[1:04:11] SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, I think like also um, you know, I think I think going into any world championship, there's probably really call it three to five people that are truly in contention for a title um in any given year.
[1:04:26] SPEAKER_01: And who comes out on top, you know, like I'm not saying this to disparage any champion.
[1:04:31] SPEAKER_01: It's it's obviously a huge, huge accomplishment, and they worked super hard, but there's also a a little bit of luck that goes into it in any given year.
[1:04:39] SPEAKER_01: And um and so like you know, the question is how long do you want to chase the dream?
[1:04:44] SPEAKER_01: Because you could certainly be I mean, like, look look at Lucy Charles.
[1:04:48] SPEAKER_01: It took her, you know, how many years of getting second and third before she got first, and um and ultimately she did it, and that's a huge accomplishment.
[1:04:57] SPEAKER_01: But like I'm just using that as an example of like, you know, things didn't quite go her way um so many years in a row before it finally did.
[1:05:06] SPEAKER_01: And so there's there's always gonna be a little bit of luck or a little bit of things going your way um with any sort of world title because the field is that competitive and is so um everyone's so well matched, you know.
[1:05:20] SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
[1:05:21] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it does, mate.
[1:05:22] SPEAKER_00: It does.
[1:05:23] SPEAKER_00: And I think four, four second places for Lucy at Kona before she finally won or something like that, off the top of my head.
[1:05:29] SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, exactly sure, yeah.
[1:05:32] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good point.
[1:05:33] SPEAKER_00: Look, I think whatever you do, like you're you're clearly a guy who's gonna be successful and has heaps of drive.
[1:05:38] SPEAKER_00: And it's really mate, it's a great story.
[1:05:40] SPEAKER_00: Like it's really inspiring for a lot of people.
[1:05:42] SPEAKER_00: Um, because you're you're super relatable.
[1:05:44] SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, not everyone's a doctor and a professional triathlete, so in that sense, you're actually completely unrelatable for most of us.
[1:05:50] SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
[1:05:51] SPEAKER_00: But but the working full time, studying full time, grinding really hard, getting up early to do your training, staying up late to do to do your training.
[1:06:00] SPEAKER_00: struggling with sleep and struggling with life balance, all of that is super relatable.
[1:06:04] SPEAKER_00: And at some stage, you know, you're an you're a you're a you're a guy who's I I think's probably going to have it all and and and become even more unrelatable.
[1:06:12] SPEAKER_00: But for now telling your story of of the struggle of of fitting it all in is actually super relatable.
[1:06:16] SPEAKER_00: So um while that while that element of it lasts it's it's really good to hear you talk about mate.
[1:06:21] SPEAKER_00: So um thank you for coming on the podcast and doing it.
[1:06:23] SPEAKER_00: Going forward this year you said Lake Placid is next and then Iron Man World Championships.
[1:06:28] SPEAKER_00: Are they the only two like races that you've got locked in?
[1:06:31] SPEAKER_01: Yeah those are the only two that are definitely locked in and um we will kind of have to go go from there depending on how they play out.
[1:06:38] SPEAKER_00: So yeah yeah and if you if you like could have a a perfect world this year do really well at them would you even race outside of that or is is life too busy outside of it?
[1:06:49] SPEAKER_01: I think that you know I think that there's certainly the depending on how life is I think that there's a potential to do like a late season race to try and uh lock in a Kono slot for next year.
[1:07:00] SPEAKER_01: Um but uh you know there's gonna be a lot of factors that are gonna depend on that.
[1:07:04] SPEAKER_01: So um it's kind of too hard it's too it's too early to say which race that would be in if it would be one at all, I think.
[1:07:11] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, makes sense.
[1:07:12] SPEAKER_00: Um and I think I've looked at you forever as being a strong cyclist although now I actually think there's a argument to be made that you're a better marathoner than you are 180k time trialist.
[1:07:22] SPEAKER_00: But to leave the the show Matt, give everyone one bike workout to do in the next week.
[1:07:29] SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh you're asking someone who's a medicine who qualifies everything to do one bike workout.
[1:07:37] SPEAKER_01: Everyone yeah um oh gosh I mean like I I always hate these questions to be perfectly honest because like everyone's so individualized and um and whatnot.
[1:07:49] SPEAKER_01: But I mean if I had to say anything I would say go out and ride and enjoy the weather um and just like enjoy being outside and you know don't overdo it drink enough water because at the end of at the end of the day the beauty of triathlon is being outside and pushing yourself and you know coming back and then being able to eat however many pancakes you want at the end of the ride.
[1:08:13] SPEAKER_01: So um just go go out and make that happen.
[1:08:16] SPEAKER_00: And from me I would give you eight by six minutes at about 150 to 160 heart rate um preferably uphill in TT position with just an easy ride back down recovery.
[1:08:29] SPEAKER_00: Yeah that works too and you can still have pancakes afterwards.
[1:08:34] SPEAKER_00: Matt, uh thank you for coming on um well done at Cairns mate it was honestly in I assume a lot of Americans with time zones probably didn't get the chance to watch it and even Europeans would have struggled with watching it.
[1:08:46] SPEAKER_00: But as an Australian who sat back and watched every second of that day at Cairns you made the race mate it was it was seriously awesome to watch like we were messaging in the group chat the podcast group chat in T1 with like sending screenshots of you struggling with the cramps and then we had like a poll will he finish will he finish top five will he win and like you just made the day it was so fun to watch and um that like coming back from from that like you you were down by a long way and you just worked your way through and had that battle with Nick Thompson it was awesome mate so thank you for uh putting your body on the line for us to have some entertainment and uh I look forward to to seeing what how things pan out at Lake Placid.
[1:09:22] SPEAKER_00: Like I think one of the most interesting things at Lake Placid is watching you out of the swim and seeing what happens like does he cramp does he not cramp how long for uh I hope for your sake it doesn't happen.
[1:09:34] SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah even if it does you've now proven to yourself that you can still get back into the race and and um and even win races with it.
[1:09:41] SPEAKER_00: So yeah well done mate and thanks for coming on.
[1:09:43] SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.

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