# Answering Training Questions For 2 Hours!

An episode of [The Triathlon Hour](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1595443343), 4 Jan 2026, 2 h 13 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2640942/episodes/19698002-answering-training-questions-for-2-hours.mp3

The whole gang is back together this week to talk about training for 2 hours straight! So much training chat is covered in this episode it’s almost impossible to describe it all - but we can guarantee your inner training nerd will love this one. As always there’s plenty of fun & laughs along the way too. Nord VPN:Take advantage of a great deal with Nord VPN use the code triathlonhour or visit nordvpn.com/triathlonhour to get a huge discount in the 2 year plans PLUS 4 extra months! It is risk free with Nord's 30 days money back guarantee! Precision: Use the code TTH25 to get 15% off your first order with Precision at Precision Fuel & Hydration or subscribe to the Patreon and access the link that will save you 20% on every order, not just your first Patreon Pillar: Use the code TTH to get 15% off your first order with Pillar Performance at Pillar Performance or use The Feed for North American customers Lever: Use the code TTH for 20% off your Lever system Lever

## Transcript

[0:28] SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the first episode of the Trithlon Hour for 2026.
[0:33] SPEAKER_00: Like I said in last week's podcast, it's off-season time.
[0:36] SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to us, we don't want to stop making content just because nothing's happening in the triathlon world.
[0:42] SPEAKER_00: So instead, what we're going to do is we're going to do off-season radio, which is where we dive into training a little bit more, maybe talk about some of the things you don't get time to talk about when you're kind of focusing on the week-to-week racing and drama of professional triathlon.
[0:57] SPEAKER_00: So there's no better way to do it than with the whole crew to start off the new year.
[1:02] SPEAKER_00: So the greatest triathlete probably we've ever had on the podcast, the Olympic medalist, the world champion, the smartest triathlete maybe we've also ever had on the podcast.
[1:11] SPEAKER_00: She's here as always, Vicky Holland.
[1:13] SPEAKER_04: Jack, thanks as always.
[1:14] SPEAKER_04: Another sterling introduction from yourself there.
[1:17] SPEAKER_04: Again, none of it true, but I'm still happy to take it.
[1:20] SPEAKER_00: And we've got both of the boys back, not just one.
[1:23] SPEAKER_00: There was some drama potentially behind the scenes that we're not really going to dive into.
[1:27] SPEAKER_00: Just know that it's sorted.
[1:28] SPEAKER_00: Greg Harper, the most opinionated man in Trithlon, he joins us.
[1:32] SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me, Jack, and happy New Year to my fellow co-hosts.
[1:35] SPEAKER_02: It's so great to see your faces again.
[1:37] SPEAKER_00: And the second greatest male triathlete of all time, behind Lionel Sanders, of course, Jan Fredino, a close, well, not actually that close.
[1:44] SPEAKER_00: He's third spot, but this is the second greatest male triathlete of all time.
[1:47] SPEAKER_00: He's on the podcast.
[1:48] SPEAKER_00: It's a privilege to have him.
[1:49] SPEAKER_00: Sam Appleton is back.
[1:51] SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me, Jack.
[1:52] SPEAKER_01: It's good to be on the podcast with yourself, the number one triflon journalist, Vicky, the voice of reason, and my best friend Greg.
[2:00] SPEAKER_00: Just for the record, though, Apple, I actually don't do journalism anymore.
[2:03] SPEAKER_00: Imogen Simmons ended that for me.
[2:05] SPEAKER_00: She made it not fun.
[2:07] SPEAKER_00: That was all a little bit too much drama for even me.
[2:09] SPEAKER_00: So I actually retired earlier in 2025.
[2:12] SPEAKER_00: And 2026, no more journalism from me.
[2:14] SPEAKER_01: So you're just a pundit with a microphone now.
[2:17] SPEAKER_00: I honestly don't really know what I am.
[2:19] SPEAKER_00: Probably actually, you know what I am?
[2:21] SPEAKER_00: Pointless.
[2:21] SPEAKER_00: I am absolutely pointless to this podcast, but I'm here, so you got to put up with me.
[2:26] SPEAKER_00: Vicki, Greg, Apo.
[2:28] SPEAKER_00: On today's podcast, we're going to do something a little bit different.
[2:31] SPEAKER_00: We're going to ask each other questions about training.
[2:34] SPEAKER_00: So for example, Vicki's brought two questions that she's going to ask myself, Greg, and Apo about training.
[2:40] SPEAKER_00: And then I've brought two that I'm going to ask Greg, Apo, and Vicky.
[2:43] SPEAKER_00: And we're just going to go through until all of those questions have been asked and answered.
[2:48] SPEAKER_00: We kind of want it to be like discussional and ask each other questions and just provide value to all of you.
[2:54] SPEAKER_00: Maybe give you like little tidbits and pieces of information that you can take into your own training, or maybe that you can listen to and dismiss and realize, hey, that's stupid.
[3:04] SPEAKER_00: I don't want to use that in my training.
[3:05] SPEAKER_00: However, you use it is up to you.
[3:07] SPEAKER_00: But like I said, off-season radio, we want to talk about training a lot more, and we're going to use the weekly podcast to kick that off.
[3:13] SPEAKER_00: So Vicky, you have volunteered to start us off with your questions.
[3:17] SPEAKER_04: I have.
[3:18] SPEAKER_04: And as a caveat, I would say that one or two of my questions aren't specifically about training, maybe a little bit broader than that.
[3:24] SPEAKER_04: But on the whole, we're still on the training topic.
[3:27] SPEAKER_04: So my first question is to you, Jack.
[3:31] SPEAKER_04: As a coach, can you define your training philosophy?
[3:34] SPEAKER_04: How you work with your athletes and what you believe are the fundamentals to your training programs?
[3:40] SPEAKER_00: Okay, so um we actually did write these questions uh and so we've all seen them earlier, but then the day got away from me and I didn't have any time to prepare.
[3:50] SPEAKER_00: And that is a deep question that probably, you know, you can't.
[3:53] SPEAKER_04: You probably should have done your homework, shouldn't you, Jack?
[3:56] unknown: Yeah, yeah.
[3:56] SPEAKER_00: That yeah, yeah, that's made me realize that I'm an idiot and should have prepared.
[4:00] SPEAKER_00: But um, I'll try and keep it kind of quick because this is the kind of thing that Olaf Alexander Boo would take five to six hours to answer, and you'd be like, I'm still not quite sure what he said.
[4:10] SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'll try not to be Olaf Alexander Boo about it, and then I'm realizing I actually am already doing that.
[4:15] SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, I think probably the single most important thing in any coach athlete setup is that both the coach and athlete have optimism, excitement, and buy into the program.
[4:27] SPEAKER_00: Um, so I guess maybe what makes me the coach I am is trying to cultivate those three things.
[4:34] SPEAKER_00: Uh and if it's not there on one or both ends, like let's say the athlete doesn't have optimism or excitement or or buy into the program, or I don't have optimism or excitement or buy into the program with that athlete, I just I just don't think it can be the best it could be, and potentially even just won't work at all.
[4:53] SPEAKER_00: And you're just gonna be butting your head against a wall as a coach and an athlete.
[4:56] SPEAKER_00: Um, and and it's not program related, but I view myself as a really obsessed and motivated coach.
[5:03] SPEAKER_00: And I try to bring a culture of obsession and motivation to my programs.
[5:08] SPEAKER_00: I I also work very hard on ingraining a culture of hard work in the athlete.
[5:14] SPEAKER_00: So I prefer if I don't have to, like I prefer if the athlete just is a naturally hardworking athlete and I'm constantly having to say to them, I love how hard you're working, I love how hard you want to work, but on this session or in this week, we need to just pull things back.
[5:29] SPEAKER_00: I I definitely prefer that to having an athlete who's a little bit lazier or kind of shies away from hard work.
[5:35] SPEAKER_00: They're harder to they're harder to get the most out of.
[5:38] SPEAKER_00: But I mean, you're not always going to get the athlete who is intrinsically super motivated.
[5:43] SPEAKER_00: So there is times where you do have to kind of try and work hard on on cultivating that culture of hard work in the athlete and in the program as a whole.
[5:51] SPEAKER_00: Um, and and this is obviously linked closely to the athlete's excitement and optimism and buy-in that I that I touched on just then.
[5:58] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's easy to work hard when you're in that headspace where you've just got complete buy-in and and and excitement for the program, I think.
[6:05] SPEAKER_00: And that's been my experience, especially when coaching professionals.
[6:08] SPEAKER_00: Um but but at the core of my training philosophy is hard work.
[6:12] SPEAKER_00: And if you're an athlete that's coached by me, you're gonna be working hard, and there's just no way around that.
[6:18] SPEAKER_00: Um, and because of that, I'd probably describe myself as a challenge first support second coach.
[6:24] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that kind of sounds bad.
[6:26] SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't mean I'm a hard ass and have no empathy or don't care about my athlete, it's just it's support second, not not don't support at all.
[6:34] SPEAKER_00: I like like I yeah, just I don't know if that sounds bad.
[6:37] SPEAKER_00: That probably makes me sound like Brett Sutton, but it's not trying to be that.
[6:41] SPEAKER_00: It's just if if I think if support is the foundation and challenge is is like the secondary thing, that you're probably gonna end up like tipping into territories of being the athlete's friend more than their coach.
[6:53] SPEAKER_00: And I really want to be the athlete's coach first and friend second.
[6:57] SPEAKER_00: And I've I've fallen into this trap in the past because in endurance sport, the relationship you have with your uh athlete is intense.
[7:06] SPEAKER_00: Like there's not really a big team for most people, like yes, Taylor Nib has about six coaches, but with me, I pretty much just have me and the athlete I work with.
[7:15] SPEAKER_00: And so that because of that, you're talking most days, you're becoming really close friends, and it can just be a dangerous path to go down when you're constantly the friend of the athlete and not the coach.
[7:25] SPEAKER_00: And like, say, um uh yeah, I won't use specific examples, but I have fallen into that trap with athletes, and I think overall it makes the program worse, not better.
[7:34] SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I really try and be coach first and challenge first, and then support second and friend second.
[7:41] SPEAKER_00: And the the longer you work with an athlete, the more time you you have to develop trust so that the athlete knows you're challenging them for the right reasons, and then you'll support them at the right time.
[7:50] SPEAKER_00: So uh I guess part of my philosophy is trying to develop and ingrain that trust that the athlete knows you're challenging them for the right reasons, and you will support them when you need, but you're also just not gonna pander to them and and you know, like kind of not be the hard coach you have to be at the right times.
[8:06] SPEAKER_00: That that's a big part of me.
[8:07] SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, so when it comes to programming specifically, which I guess is more the question you asked, Vicky, that's really bloody hard to sum up quickly, I think.
[8:16] SPEAKER_00: So um I'm a sports scientist at heart and I do view training as an experiment at the end of the day.
[8:23] SPEAKER_00: And I I I think I realize that I don't have all the answers.
[8:26] SPEAKER_00: I definitely don't know everything.
[8:28] SPEAKER_00: And part of what makes good coaching so hard is that you're always trying to figure out things on the fly and make them work.
[8:36] SPEAKER_00: You don't like you don't have the solution in front of you, and and you can't just like click copy and paste into training peaks and you'll get results.
[8:42] SPEAKER_00: And and if anyone did do had that, like if anyone had that, they'd just be the best coach in the world because it doesn't exist.
[8:49] SPEAKER_00: And being a sports science-backed coach isn't being like, oh, well, this research tell tells me this, or this research tells me that, so I'll I'll implement this.
[8:57] SPEAKER_00: Because what you realize is that what we can prove works is very limited because every research paper out there kind of ends at 12 weeks because that's how long a university term is, and even 12 weeks would be a really long research paper.
[9:11] SPEAKER_00: Like most research is done over like four, five, six weeks.
[9:14] SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, part of being a sports science-driven coach is realizing that I don't have all the answers and I am experimenting with my athlete um and and my athletes, like so.
[9:24] SPEAKER_00: Each individual athlete is a different experiment, and you're both just trying to make it work.
[9:28] SPEAKER_00: And and and I think being a good coach is realizing that and not trying to pretend that you have all of the answers.
[9:34] SPEAKER_00: Um, like I get yeah, I guess with that, that's what what my programs look like with my athletes varies quite a lot based on their strengths and weaknesses, um, what they're training for, where where they're at in their development cycle as an athlete, their psychology, you know, lots of different things like that.
[9:52] SPEAKER_00: Um, and and with some athletes, I might do like a traditionally periodized program where volume is high in the preseason and then it drops off closer to the race as their intensity increases.
[10:02] SPEAKER_00: Um, with another athlete, I might do the opposite and use reverse periodization.
[10:07] SPEAKER_00: Um, with some, I might even do block periodization.
[10:10] SPEAKER_00: That's kind of a newer thing that I've been experimenting with with some of my athletes that I I've never traditionally used.
[10:16] SPEAKER_00: So it is always evolving in terms of what you set and why you set it.
[10:21] SPEAKER_00: Um, and like with some athletes, we we literally might not periodise their training program at all and just sprinkle in bits of everything all year round.
[10:30] SPEAKER_00: Uh, yeah, so it's it's really very individual.
[10:33] SPEAKER_00: But I guess I do think fundamentally uh uh I'm I'm a pretty diligent program setter and spend like more hours than uh than the average coach with training peaks open thinking about and planning or like um trying to like uh adjust the programs I set.
[10:50] SPEAKER_00: Like at the moment I'm running a lot, and every single run that I go on, I'm the all I'm thinking about is uh my athletes' programs and what I'm gonna set and why I'm gonna set it.
[11:00] SPEAKER_00: Uh and like I might go for a two-hour run and I think about all of my athletes and all of their programs, or maybe it's just one of my athletes and one of their programs for the entire two hours, and like it's to the point where I like subconsciously um I guess I'm just living the culture that I try to set with my athletes that I talked about earlier, which is is one of obsession and hard work, and and I really am obsessed with the programs I set.
[11:25] SPEAKER_00: Uh and and yeah, I've waffled on here a bit, but getting the most out of an athlete, I think, is a combination of physiology and psychology, and that is the foundation of everything I do.
[11:36] SPEAKER_00: So, from a physiological perspective, you're basically building the athlete's strengths and improving their weaknesses, like specifically based on the demands of their racing.
[11:46] SPEAKER_00: So that that changes depending on what sport they're doing, whether it's triathlon or running or cycling, or if it is triathlon, whether they're doing Iron Man or Short Course or 70.3.
[11:56] SPEAKER_00: Um, like like does this athlete need a higher VO2 max?
[11:59] SPEAKER_00: Do they need higher thresholds?
[12:01] SPEAKER_00: Does their economy need improving?
[12:02] SPEAKER_00: Does their muscular endurance or strength need improving?
[12:05] SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, they're the they're the kinds of questions I'm asking myself and trying to answer in the programming that I'm setting.
[12:11] SPEAKER_00: And um, and obviously psychology is massive.
[12:14] SPEAKER_00: And I touched on all of that, but it doesn't matter how good my programming is that I set if I don't work on the psychology of the athlete and make sure that they're in a position all the time, not just one day, not just one week, not just one month, but the entire time that you work with them to work really hard, to be super optimistic about the program, to to have excitement about their day-to-day training.
[12:35] SPEAKER_00: And if you're sensing that they're not, then then making sure you're trying to get them excited about their day-to-day training and cultivating binds.
[12:42] SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if I answered your question, Vicky, but uh but yeah, that's how that's that's me as a coach.
[12:48] SPEAKER_02: More that well, I'll just uh since I'm one of Jack's athletes, you have to check training peaks every morning because he'll like change the session.
[12:58] SPEAKER_02: I feel like he's like on a run one day, he's like, nah, that session's too easy, and you wake up, you realize this session's harder than it was originally planned for, or whatever, too.
[13:05] SPEAKER_02: So uh yeah, I think Jack spends a lot of time just like thinking about the like little things, like, oh, the watt range is actually narrower and higher than it was three hours ago.
[13:14] SPEAKER_02: Because Jack was on a run, like, nah, fuck that.
[13:16] SPEAKER_02: This session needs to be harder for Greg.
[13:18] SPEAKER_02: So uh yeah, he's uh he's meticulous in that way.
[13:21] SPEAKER_04: So well, I made a quick synopsis as you were talking.
[13:24] SPEAKER_04: I've got that you're a hard ass, obsessive sports scientist who puts in lots of variation, insists on hard work and experimentation.
[13:34] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[13:34] SPEAKER_04: Do you think that's about right?
[13:35] SPEAKER_00: But I just want to on record, Vicky, that none of that experimentation involves inserting anything into any of my athletes' asses.
[13:42] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[13:43] SPEAKER_04: Never done.
[13:44] SPEAKER_04: Right, we need to move on because this is gonna be the travel three hours otherwise.
[13:50] SPEAKER_04: All right, my next question is to Apo.
[13:53] SPEAKER_04: So, Apo, you are someone who's won many, many races in your career and 70.3 races even in the last year.
[14:00] SPEAKER_04: But how far off do you think you are from a pro series or a T100 podium?
[14:06] SPEAKER_04: And do you think you could have podiumed at one in 2025 on the right day?
[14:10] SPEAKER_01: Ooh, um I I would say probably not to a T100 podium.
[14:17] SPEAKER_01: I think that level of racing's extremely high.
[14:19] SPEAKER_01: And I don't think even on a really good day, I could be on the podium at a T100.
[14:25] SPEAKER_01: I think maybe one of the pro series, like um, I won Santa Cruz um in September, and I felt like that was a really, really good race for me and from a numbers perspective and things like that.
[14:36] SPEAKER_01: And I think at the right pro series race, I think that could have slotted me close to the podium.
[14:41] SPEAKER_01: Maybe like if I executed that race that I did at Santa Cruz at Oceanside, potentially it could have seen me challenging for the podium, or maybe um the Eagle Man uh Pro Series race.
[14:54] SPEAKER_01: I think the Pro Series races in Europe uh they definitely don't play to my strengths, right?
[15:01] SPEAKER_01: It seems to be very pack oriented and then lots of really fast runners, like lots of sub-10 runners that get off and um and execute fast runs.
[15:11] SPEAKER_01: That's generally not my strength.
[15:13] SPEAKER_01: Like I'm more of an athlete that thrives on, you know, swim bike, getting in a breakaway off the bike, and then running um strong.
[15:21] SPEAKER_01: I'm not a great athlete at getting off in a pack and then you know, duking it out on the run with lots of fast runners.
[15:27] SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of hard to say as well, you know.
[15:30] SPEAKER_01: Pro series, I think T100 is generally um the competition is higher than the Pro Series 70.3s.
[15:38] SPEAKER_01: Um But yeah, so I think maybe a little bit off the T100 podium, but I think on the right day and the right race I could be challenging for a Pro Series podium.
[15:47] SPEAKER_01: Um But my whole reasoning for the races I chose in 2025 was to um look at races that I thought I could do well at, what's going to give me the best chance of you know earning money and um getting value to my sponsors and things like that.
[16:02] SPEAKER_01: And I kind of wanted to do races that didn't require so much physical and emotional investment, and races that I could just you know fly in on Friday and fly out straight after the race, minimize time away from my family and um and try and maximize uh my chances at podiums and yeah, earning money because at the end of the day it's a business, right?
[16:24] SPEAKER_01: And it's not always the most fulfilling to go to a um you know a lower tier 70.3 and win, like um you know, racing the best and racing well at Pro Series and T100 is probably more fulfilling.
[16:38] SPEAKER_01: Well, not probably, it would absolutely be more fulfilling, but yeah, at the end of the day, I've got to do what's best for my sponsors and um my bottom line.
[16:46] SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of the reasoning for my 2025 um schedule.
[16:50] SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, I think uh yeah, I was reasonably happy with how it all played out in the end.
[16:55] SPEAKER_04: Okay, I've done a synopsis for you as well.
[16:58] SPEAKER_04: So you were pretty close at points uh for a pro series, but maybe not a T100, that you are more of a swim bike specialist, and therefore really what you need is the 20-meter draft zone.
[17:11] SPEAKER_04: I think that would really benefit you.
[17:13] SPEAKER_04: And essentially, to really hit that top tier, you need a sub-110 half.
[17:18] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[17:18] SPEAKER_04: That's that's what I've got from that.
[17:20] SPEAKER_01: Basically, yeah, I think 110 now is becoming the standard at these higher um, or not even, it's the minimum, right?
[17:27] SPEAKER_01: At these higher tier races like the T100 and the Pro Series.
[17:31] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think you can still get away with, and I did in 2025, like some you know, 112, 113 runs at those second-tier 70.3s.
[17:40] SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, if you want to win or podium a pro series, you definitely need to be sub-110 for sure.
[17:45] unknown: Yeah.
[17:46] SPEAKER_02: Well, in Europe, because the courses are short.
[17:49] SPEAKER_02: In Oceanside, you don't have to be.
[17:51] SPEAKER_04: Are you one of those Americans, Greg, who's never left America?
[17:55] SPEAKER_04: Like, do you know where Europe is and that?
[17:58] SPEAKER_02: Europe?
[17:58] SPEAKER_02: Is that a country or a continent?
[18:00] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, there we go.
[18:01] SPEAKER_04: That's what I was after.
[18:02] SPEAKER_04: All right.
[18:03] SPEAKER_04: Next one is for you, Greg.
[18:05] SPEAKER_04: And unsurprisingly, it's a swimming question.
[18:08] SPEAKER_04: So, aside from drills and technique work, which we all know that you love, what would be your number one swim session to help triathlete, and this can be different for professionals and amateurs if you think it's appropriate, that would enable them to maximize their swim performance within a triathlon?
[18:24] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good question.
[18:25] SPEAKER_02: Um, I would say I think my favorite set ever is 10, 400s long course.
[18:31] SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, maybe with like 20 or 30 seconds rest.
[18:33] SPEAKER_02: Just kind of like go as hard as you can, essentially.
[18:36] SPEAKER_02: However, I think that's more of like a professional and like more of an elite type swimmer workout.
[18:41] SPEAKER_02: I'm a super big fan of like hundreds on quick rest.
[18:45] SPEAKER_02: I think triathletes have this they think that like, oh, quick rest, they'll get like 10 or 15 seconds in a hundred.
[18:52] SPEAKER_02: I'm talking like two to four seconds.
[18:54] SPEAKER_02: Like, do 10-100s on an interval that is just insanely hard for you that you might not be able to make and kind of touch and go.
[19:00] SPEAKER_02: I think it's super good, like mentally and physically, you know, stimulating.
[19:04] SPEAKER_02: And it's essentially you're swimming straight with the tiny breaks, which I kind of think resets the stroke a little bit.
[19:10] SPEAKER_02: There's kind of a time and place.
[19:11] SPEAKER_02: It's like if you're an elite swimmer, you can do more of the 10-400 stuff, but if you're not, like maybe that's not going to be the best set for you as you kind of grind down your technique in a bad way.
[19:21] SPEAKER_02: But I think really short rest hundreds, like I call it FPSO, fastest possible send-off.
[19:27] SPEAKER_02: Now I will say it's on.
[19:29] SPEAKER_02: An interval means like on.
[19:31] SPEAKER_02: Like sometimes I'll say, Oh, I did 10100s on 105.
[19:33] SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, when did you leave?
[19:34] SPEAKER_02: It's like, I just said it, motherfucker.
[19:36] SPEAKER_02: Like, on 105.
[19:38] SPEAKER_02: I I would have said in if that's when I came in.
[19:40] SPEAKER_02: So so like what is the fastest interval you can make?
[19:43] SPEAKER_02: You know, 10100s on the 130.
[19:45] SPEAKER_02: You came in at 127.
[19:47] SPEAKER_02: It's just that like you have to really mentally be okay with getting two seconds rest and then resetting and then just like being on your limit the whole time.
[19:55] SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a a super good one.
[19:58] SPEAKER_04: So you limit that at 10, because that's the sort of session, like growing up as a swimmer.
[20:02] SPEAKER_04: We would do like 50 of them.
[20:05] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like yeah.
[20:07] SPEAKER_04: And I'm sure you did do.
[20:08] SPEAKER_02: Hookers would do a lot.
[20:09] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[20:10] SPEAKER_02: No, exactly.
[20:11] SPEAKER_02: I'd probably limit it like 20.
[20:13] SPEAKER_02: Although I did give 40 to a gentleman who was doing an Iron Man, but he like was like, oh, we did 20, then 30.
[20:18] SPEAKER_02: Can we do 40?
[20:19] SPEAKER_02: I'm like, okay.
[20:21] SPEAKER_02: If you want that.
[20:21] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[20:22] SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, I just uh doing the distance you're gonna swim in the race in the pro than the yardage, right?
[20:28] SPEAKER_02: So like if you're gonna do a half, like do 20.
[20:30] SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna do a full, yeah, go for 40.
[20:32] SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, that's uh that can be tough as well.
[20:35] SPEAKER_02: But that's that's one of my favorite.
[20:37] SPEAKER_01: So with those hundreds, Greg, um to put it in more like layman's terms, like um, you know, that explain it to me like I'm five, would you um would you say that's considered like settled race effort on those hundreds?
[20:53] SPEAKER_01: Like if you were trying to give that to a to an amateur that doesn't really know like how hard they should be pushing, if you can just kind of simplify it, would that be like, oh, this is kind of the effort that you'd be doing when you're settled in a race?
[21:06] SPEAKER_01: Is that kind of what you're looking at for those 10 to 21 hundreds, or should it be harder than that?
[21:10] SPEAKER_02: I think like in that set, probably harder.
[21:12] SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like threshold, threshold plus almost into VO2, essentially, like by the end, right?
[21:19] SPEAKER_02: On those on that really hard stuff, you could do race effort ones, but maybe take a little bit more rest and be like more settled.
[21:24] SPEAKER_02: But I think if you're gonna that's the whole point, like the true make-in interval that you is gonna challenge you that you might not be able to make.
[21:31] SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're essentially going full gas by the end.
[21:33] SPEAKER_02: Like it's hard to start, and then by the end, it's it's very, very hard.
[21:36] SPEAKER_02: And I feel like triathletes need to like get more uncomfortable in the pool and then be uncomfortable for 15 or 20 minutes straight.
[21:44] SPEAKER_02: Um I th I feel like people are really good at doing that on the bike and run, but when it comes to swim, there's like a little bit of a block there.
[21:49] SPEAKER_02: So I think that's important.
[21:51] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think swimming is like the it's like the uh the black swan of of the three, Greg.
[21:57] SPEAKER_00: So read cycling and running from from A training perspective, you train very similar in both of them.
[22:03] SPEAKER_00: And if you looked at an intensity breakdown like time spent in zone, they're very similar.
[22:09] SPEAKER_00: Whereas swimming is very different, isn't it?
[22:11] SPEAKER_00: And if you talk to any any swimmer, any former swimmer, any professional swim coach, they'll tell you that swimming has an insanely high percentage of higher intensity training relative to other endurance sports.
[22:24] SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of an anomaly when it comes to endurance sports, where you do spend a lot more time at a higher intensity than say what you would if you were just a cyclist, where your time spent in zone one might be like 80 to 90% of your program.
[22:38] SPEAKER_00: Whereas in swimming, it's nowhere near that, is it?
[22:41] SPEAKER_00: Like you probably are doing intensity every single day.
[22:44] SPEAKER_00: So you're not kind of advocating for, hey, do this session once a week.
[22:48] SPEAKER_00: You're kind of advocating to do these sessions pretty frequently, if not most times you swim.
[22:54] SPEAKER_02: Yes and no.
[22:55] SPEAKER_02: I I I wouldn't give that to maybe like an age group triathlete, but like if you're a professional and you're really trying to up your swim, then then yeah.
[23:02] SPEAKER_02: And like you said, I got good at swimming because I did 10 years of trying to go as fast as I could every single practice.
[23:08] SPEAKER_02: Like it was just one long best average set.
[23:12] SPEAKER_02: I would, you know, I would start my workout at tempo effort and I would end it sprinting as fast as I could.
[23:17] SPEAKER_02: And I did that every day for 10 years, and that's how I got good.
[23:20] SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I think if you're going to reach your swim potential for sure.
[23:22] SPEAKER_02: Now, in the context of triathlon, there might be some more nuance there, but yeah, you can't get away with the hard effort, that's for sure.
[23:30] SPEAKER_04: Okay, next question.
[23:31] SPEAKER_04: Back to you, Jack.
[23:32] SPEAKER_04: You have been doing this podcast for several years now, and have there been, or could you tell me what your three biggest takeaways have been, your big three biggest learnings from this podcast?
[23:44] SPEAKER_00: Yep.
[23:44] SPEAKER_00: So when Apo was answering his first question, then Vicky, I completely zoned out.
[23:48] SPEAKER_00: I went and looked at what your next question is.
[23:50] SPEAKER_00: And did some prep.
[23:51] SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
[23:53] SPEAKER_00: So this answer will be far more concise than my last one.
[23:56] SPEAKER_00: Uh, the number one biggest learning from doing the podcast is don't get caught up on fads or hype.
[24:03] SPEAKER_00: Like, there's been so many in the space of the five years I've done this podcast.
[24:08] SPEAKER_00: Don't get caught up on them.
[24:09] SPEAKER_00: Just stick to the basics.
[24:11] SPEAKER_00: Try and like just because an athlete you really like says that they like this pair of shoes or you know, um, does this certain kind of training, don't then go and change everything you do or or or think that that's the secret or the answer.
[24:25] SPEAKER_00: It really isn't.
[24:26] SPEAKER_00: So just avoid hype, avoid fads at all costs.
[24:30] SPEAKER_00: Um the second biggest learning is if you want to be the best athlete you can be, nothing, and I I repeat, nothing is more important than working hard and being all in.
[24:41] SPEAKER_00: If you ever want to get to the to the the tippy top of your potential, go all in and work hard.
[24:48] SPEAKER_00: And the third biggest learning is that time is magic.
[24:51] SPEAKER_00: If you want to be good, start now and accumulate as much time as you can trying to become better.
[24:58] SPEAKER_00: Everyone overestimates what they can do in a year or two in this sport, I reckon.
[25:02] SPEAKER_00: But if you can just be on the tools every day for, you know, three, four, five, ten, fifteen, if you're Apo 20 years, that's the magic right there.
[25:10] SPEAKER_00: So work hard, be on the tools every day, spend as many days as possible doing that, uh, accumulate years, and you'll get the most out of yourself and avoid uh fads and hypes along the way.
[25:21] SPEAKER_04: I really like that.
[25:22] SPEAKER_04: And especially the bit about time being magic.
[25:24] SPEAKER_04: I mean, I had a career that I'm really proud of, but it took me 10 years to win a big race.
[25:30] SPEAKER_04: So it was a really long time, and I think that gets overlooked sometimes.
[25:34] SPEAKER_04: People just think that they can do it for a year or two and get these amazing results, and actually it can take a really long time.
[25:40] SPEAKER_04: Right, next question.
[25:42] SPEAKER_04: I'm going back to you, Apo.
[25:44] SPEAKER_04: So I am someone who is relatively recently retired, and I know how hard it is to find the right moment and to retire sort of feeling happy and satisfied that the moment's right.
[25:56] SPEAKER_04: And I very nearly retired when it wouldn't have been right.
[25:59] SPEAKER_04: So carrying on, I got to feel like I retired totally fulfilled.
[26:03] SPEAKER_04: And for you, I know you've spoken about possible retirement.
[26:07] SPEAKER_04: What do you think successful retirement looks like for you?
[26:11] SPEAKER_04: And have you really thought about that?
[26:13] SPEAKER_01: Dan, Vicky, are you trying to uh are you trying to retire me?
[26:16] SPEAKER_01: Is this uh is this is this what you're leading towards?
[26:18] SPEAKER_04: No, I am I'm thinking I'm acting as your life coach.
[26:21] SPEAKER_04: I'm trying to prepare you for what is inevitably to come at some point, hopefully not in the next year or two.
[26:28] SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, I do I think it's important to think about it and what would what would constitute a successful and happy moment to retire.
[26:35] SPEAKER_01: I think so, yes, I have thought about retirement quite a lot actually.
[26:40] SPEAKER_01: And I think most triathletes do when races are going bad or they've had a bad year, like even probably people like even in their 20s are considering retirement and things, and um I think that's a very natural thought and feeling to have.
[26:53] SPEAKER_01: Um and I've seen a lot of athletes and friends that kind of you know, they keep um holding on to their career and things like that, and um almost like they should have retired a few years ago and they keep racing.
[27:09] SPEAKER_01: And I don't really want to be someone like that that keeps racing and just the kind of results fall off the cliff and things like that.
[27:17] SPEAKER_01: But I think I could retire.
[27:18] SPEAKER_01: Like if I was to retire now and never race again, I think I would still be quite content and happy with my career.
[27:26] SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there's a lot of things that I haven't achieved and things that I still want to achieve.
[27:30] SPEAKER_01: Um but I think waiting for that right moment, I don't think there is a right moment, right?
[27:36] SPEAKER_01: I think you have to have a hard hard conversation with yourself.
[27:39] SPEAKER_01: And I think most athletes that go through retirement are gonna be thinking about, should I do another year?
[27:45] SPEAKER_01: Or I'm sure there's lots of conflicting thoughts that pull them in different directions.
[27:50] SPEAKER_01: So I think waiting for that right time isn't necessarily the answer.
[27:53] SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes you just have to have that hard conversation with yourself.
[27:58] SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, it's hard because I have considered retirement and with a young family as well, it gets harder and harder.
[28:06] SPEAKER_01: Um and I feel like my priorities have not shifted, but you know, I've got other other priorities in my life now.
[28:16] SPEAKER_01: And um I think I'm not the win-it-all-costs athlete that I used to be, maybe ten, even eight, seven, eight years ago.
[28:24] SPEAKER_01: I do like winning, but I'm not gonna do that at the cost of my family or things like that.
[28:32] SPEAKER_01: You know, there's things that I'm not willing to give up in order to be the best athlete I can be, which you know, that might be controversial for some listening, but um, yeah, I just think you've got to have that balance, right?
[28:46] SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think I think what I've got at the moment is um, you know, I'm really happy with where my life is at and how my career has played out, but there is still things that I do want to go out and do before I retire.
[28:58] SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of my thoughts on my career and um and where I'm at thinking about retirement as well.
[29:03] SPEAKER_01: But I'm 35, so I'm not I'm not that young anymore.
[29:07] SPEAKER_01: Um I think when I raced Kona last year or in 2024, um Torsten put out that um that list of the age of all the athletes, and it kind of was really surprising for me to be like in that top 30% of oldest athletes, because you know it's not something that I was really cognizant of.
[29:26] SPEAKER_04: Shocking when that happens, isn't it?
[29:27] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's like you don't really you don't think about it, and then all of a sudden, like you just read that fact and you're like, wait, what the hell?
[29:34] SPEAKER_01: Am I one of the oldest athletes racing?
[29:37] SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, so I'm not I'm not that young anymore.
[29:40] SPEAKER_01: I'm 35, and I think Iron Man is only trending younger and younger these days.
[29:44] SPEAKER_01: It used to be one of those sports that people would do for a few years, you know, at the end of doing short course or 70.3 and things like that.
[29:52] SPEAKER_01: Like 35 15 years ago was young for an Iron Man athlete, but now it's definitely on the older end.
[29:57] SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's my uh that's my response.
[30:00] SPEAKER_02: I got a question to follow up.
[30:03] SPEAKER_02: Is there an athlete or two, you know, in the pro male field that if they beat you, you'd be like, oh fuck it, I'm retiring.
[30:10] SPEAKER_02: Like this is my all-time low.
[30:13] SPEAKER_02: Savage, we're gonna cool them out.
[30:16] SPEAKER_00: No, I mean generally Apo, get off the fence right now.
[30:21] SPEAKER_00: Take that ass, get off the fence.
[30:25] SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's always people that you like don't want to beat you, right?
[30:28] SPEAKER_01: Especially people um that you even have friend Well, I mean, even someone like Ari beating me at um Augusta, you know, it doesn't it doesn't feel good, but um I'm I'm also not one of those people that gets resentful for people beating me, you know.
[30:42] SPEAKER_01: I don't get bitter, get better.
[30:44] SPEAKER_01: That's what you guys always say, and I guess that's um kind of you know where my head's at.
[30:48] SPEAKER_01: And I move on from bad races pretty quickly, despite what you guys may have thought after um Western Australia.
[30:54] SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I try not to dwell on bad races too long.
[30:57] SPEAKER_01: And I'm never I never get mad at people for beating me, you know.
[31:00] SPEAKER_01: It's um of course I want to beat everyone, but that's not gonna happen, is it?
[31:04] SPEAKER_00: Vicky, I've just got three quick fire points.
[31:06] SPEAKER_00: One, fuck yeah, appo, get better, not bitter.
[31:09] SPEAKER_00: Two, you were depressed as fuck after Busser.
[31:12] SPEAKER_00: We didn't hear from you for three weeks.
[31:13] SPEAKER_00: Stop lying.
[31:14] SPEAKER_00: And three, don't listen to Vicky.
[31:17] SPEAKER_00: Fuck retirement.
[31:18] SPEAKER_00: You can still have the best two years of your career.
[31:21] SPEAKER_00: Like, don't even think about any of that shit for two years.
[31:23] SPEAKER_00: Jan Fredino, uh, Patrick Lang, Craig Alexander, they all won Kona at 38.
[31:28] SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying you can win Kona, but I still think that one of the next two years will be your two your best years that you've ever had in the sport.
[31:35] SPEAKER_00: So fuck all that retirement talk, Apo.
[31:37] SPEAKER_00: And uh speaking on behalf of everyone listening to the podcast, if you have a good year, it's gonna be funner to listen to your stories throughout the year on the podcast.
[31:46] SPEAKER_00: If you have a shit year, you're gonna be depressed, you're gonna be an alcoholic.
[31:49] SPEAKER_00: That's fun in its own way, but it's not the fun I want to have.
[31:51] SPEAKER_04: Can I just be clear?
[31:52] SPEAKER_04: I did not try to retire, Apo.
[31:55] SPEAKER_04: It was merely a future conversation about have you thought about it?
[31:59] SPEAKER_04: I retired at 38, so I think you've got a good few years yet.
[32:02] SPEAKER_04: And you know, I could have carried on a bit longer, but unfortunately, being a woman, if you want to have children, it slightly reduces your capabilities of actually doing triathlon.
[32:12] SPEAKER_04: And I did want another child, so I made that decision that in a similar way to you said actually that both family came first, and I thought I've done all I can do and I'm gonna step away.
[32:21] SPEAKER_04: Anyway, this is not my question.
[32:23] SPEAKER_04: So the next one, my final question is to you, Greg.
[32:27] SPEAKER_04: So, what would a successful 2026 season look like for you?
[32:33] SPEAKER_04: And what are the biggest barriers or things that you need to improve for you to reach the very top echelon of our sport?
[32:39] SPEAKER_04: And with that I mean, because you're obviously already a professional, but I mean podiuming at Pro Series or T100.
[32:45] SPEAKER_02: A successful 2026 would be beating Sam Apple.
[32:49] SPEAKER_02: No, I'm just kidding.
[32:50] SPEAKER_02: Um although, like, you know, it's funny because you want to judge your own performances yourself, but it's hard not to have those like external goals too.
[32:58] SPEAKER_02: Like, I want to go to a race with Apple and like get off the bike with him and like mix it up with him.
[33:02] SPEAKER_02: Like, that would be fun for me.
[33:04] SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of what I'm hoping.
[33:05] SPEAKER_02: I'm hoping I can get like a North American podium.
[33:07] SPEAKER_02: I feel like that would be a successful season, but also just have races that I'm like proud of where I was like just really mentally tough on the bike, and just that's where I've like let myself down a bit, like physically and mentally, I would say.
[33:22] SPEAKER_02: So kind of taking that like dog that I have in the swim, it's like I walk I walked up to the swim line and I'm like I have no nerves because I know I'm just gonna do whatever I want out there.
[33:31] SPEAKER_02: Like I want to take that mindset into the the rest of my racing um and just you know be confident that I I belong up there as well.
[33:39] SPEAKER_02: But yeah, just like execute a race that I'm proud of.
[33:42] SPEAKER_02: I feel like I've raced a few Olympic distances that are like solid, but I've never really raced a 70.3 that was like any good, really.
[33:52] SPEAKER_02: I mean, a few that were like solid, but I always thought I could do better.
[33:55] SPEAKER_02: So just like make myself proud.
[33:57] SPEAKER_02: It's kind of and I guess just stick to the process and kind of have have trust in what I'm doing and uh not make excuses, I guess.
[34:06] SPEAKER_02: So but yeah, outcome-wise, I'd really love to get on a podium or two in North America and I mean win races too.
[34:13] SPEAKER_02: Like fuck, winning is awesome.
[34:15] SPEAKER_02: It's fun.
[34:16] SPEAKER_02: I miss it.
[34:17] SPEAKER_02: Like it's the best feeling there is.
[34:19] SPEAKER_02: I've loved winning since I've been four years old, and I would love to feel that again uh on a on a professional level.
[34:26] SPEAKER_00: So to bring this back to training, Greg, um, based on Vicky's question, what do you need to do to actually achieve these things?
[34:33] SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's so easy to say, oh, I'd love to win again, or I'd love to podium.
[34:37] SPEAKER_00: Like they're stupid outcome-based things, which you kind of hinted at, but what do you actually have to do in training day to day to make that uh kind of like I guess optimistic goal a reality?
[34:47] SPEAKER_02: Well, just hard work.
[34:48] SPEAKER_02: I mean, Jack, you know, I mean this is it's kind of funny because you think back to all the things you said about as your coach and you are my coach.
[34:55] SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I think just trust in and what you're giving me and really just like we said, just like take off every box on training peaks green for many, many months, and I feel like that will be it.
[35:05] SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, just be really tough in training.
[35:09] SPEAKER_02: And I think that's you know, obviously keep raising my threshold on the bike and be a great time trialist too.
[35:15] SPEAKER_02: Um I think that's that's really important.
[35:17] SPEAKER_02: But yeah, just just that hard, that hard nose work ethic, I think.
[35:22] SPEAKER_02: Um like the the Jack Kelly way where you know Jack told me like a few months back, he's like, you know, well you're gonna do stuff that you don't want to do, but you you're gonna have to do it.
[35:32] SPEAKER_02: And I said, okay.
[35:33] SPEAKER_02: So I think that too.
[35:34] SPEAKER_02: And you know, Jack and I are aren't always on the exact same page, but I think at this point, like just trusting in your coach, I think is huge with that.
[35:42] SPEAKER_02: And it's hard, it's hard for me to detach a little bit because I self-coached for so many years, but uh I think I have the most faith in anyone as a coach right now in Jack, so I think that's that's gonna be powerful going forward.
[35:57] SPEAKER_02: Because in the end, Jack, if you just do his program, you're gonna get fit because you have to work hard.
[36:04] SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna talk to you about precision fuel and hydration.
[36:07] SPEAKER_00: I think I can talk about precision at the moment because I'm using them so much.
[36:11] SPEAKER_00: I ran 145k last week.
[36:13] SPEAKER_00: I've ran over 100k for like six weeks in a row now, and I'm going through almost more precision fuel and hydration than I uh I care to admit to.
[36:23] SPEAKER_00: I think the best way to use it is consistently.
[36:26] SPEAKER_00: And I've been thinking about this because I think that over the history of my training, I've been someone who uses gels or electrolyte tablets really haphazardly, really sporadically.
[36:38] SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I was ever getting the most out of myself now that I reflect on it.
[36:42] SPEAKER_00: Whereas now I use them almost every day, like literally almost every day.
[36:46] SPEAKER_00: If I have a long run, then I have three gels with me.
[36:48] SPEAKER_00: I have a PF30, a PF30 caffeine, and a PF90.
[36:52] SPEAKER_00: Every single long run, whether it's 20K or 30k, whether I take them all or not, I just have them with me at all times.
[36:58] SPEAKER_00: If I'm on the treadmill doing an hour session, I have two gels, two PF30 gels.
[37:03] SPEAKER_00: Every night before bed, if I've got a big session the next day, I have a pH 1000 electrolyte tablet in a 600mm bottle of water at about 7 p.m.
[37:12] SPEAKER_00: the night before.
[37:13] SPEAKER_00: And I just feel like so good every day.
[37:15] SPEAKER_00: Like if you go and look at my Strava, my training's been super consistent.
[37:19] SPEAKER_00: I haven't had a bad run in like you know, 12 weeks since I've been running seriously.
[37:24] SPEAKER_00: And I 100% think it's because of how I've been fueling, and I use precision for that because I just love them.
[37:30] SPEAKER_00: I think the gels have the best texture and flavor of any gel that I've had.
[37:34] SPEAKER_00: Um, I really like their electrolyte tablet.
[37:37] SPEAKER_00: Some Evervescency electrolyte tablets have made my gut a bit shit in the past, whereas the pH 1000 hasn't.
[37:43] SPEAKER_00: And I think it's maybe because of the concentration of the minerals in the the uh tablets.
[37:49] SPEAKER_00: Like some are stronger than others, some are weaker than others.
[37:51] SPEAKER_00: I think I can't handle a really strong one, like the pH 1500.
[37:55] SPEAKER_00: I don't think I lose enough in my sweat to tolerate that.
[37:58] SPEAKER_00: Whereas the pH 1000, which just has a little bit less, is so good for me and I never feel sick from it.
[38:04] SPEAKER_00: Um, and if I reflect on my training, like I said, I just used to feel so like randomly bad out of nowhere, randomly fucked out of nowhere, tired.
[38:13] SPEAKER_00: I'd have bad sessions all the time.
[38:15] SPEAKER_00: I'd start to do like a threshold session, and I'd be like, why don't I have it today?
[38:19] SPEAKER_00: I haven't felt that this entire training block.
[38:21] SPEAKER_00: And I do think it's just because I consistently every day am on top of my nutrition, on top of my fueling, on top of my hydration.
[38:28] SPEAKER_00: So if you want to do that as well, if you relate to anything that you just heard me say, then head over to Precision Fuel and Hydration's website.
[38:35] SPEAKER_00: Use the discount code TTH25 that gets you 15% off your first order.
[38:40] SPEAKER_00: Um, and all the details for that are in the description to this podcast as well.
[38:45] SPEAKER_01: All right.
[38:46] SPEAKER_01: I have prepared some questions myself.
[38:49] SPEAKER_01: Um I'm gonna start with you, Jack.
[38:51] SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
[38:52] SPEAKER_01: You've been doing this podcast for a long time, and it's kind of started out as the How They Train podcast.
[38:59] SPEAKER_01: So you used to do, for those that don't know, Jack used to do a weekly uh podcast and interview all the best triathletes about how they train and um and things like that.
[39:07] SPEAKER_01: Get a bit of an insight, uh sneak behind the curtain, if you will, on their um on their training.
[39:13] SPEAKER_01: And I had a question.
[39:15] SPEAKER_01: Has interviewing some of the world's best triathletes, has that influenced the way you coach at all?
[39:21] SPEAKER_01: Like when you speak to people and athletes, do you think, oh, that's you know, really good ideas, or you like the way this program was built, or you like this certain session and things like that?
[39:31] SPEAKER_01: Or have you taken kind of what you've learned from doing the um how they train and applied it to your own coaching philosophy?
[39:38] SPEAKER_00: Firstly, Appo, part of off-season triathlon radio is that I'm gonna be doing some of those interviews again.
[39:44] SPEAKER_00: So thank you for bringing that up.
[39:45] SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get some uh coaches, experts, athletes on, and I'm gonna deep dive with them again.
[39:50] SPEAKER_00: Have to take a bit of a break from that in 2025 because once you've done it for four years and you're on to your third round of interview with the same person, it was getting a little bit stale for me.
[39:58] SPEAKER_00: But I'm excited to bring that back over over the off-season.
[40:01] SPEAKER_00: Um, second part of your question, honestly, uh on the whole, not really.
[40:07] SPEAKER_00: There's like times where you talk to a certain athlete.
[40:09] SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, um, I talked to Christian Hoganhag in one of the episodes, and I thought he had some really interesting points.
[40:15] SPEAKER_00: And so, like I said in my my question to Vicky, I went and experimented.
[40:19] SPEAKER_00: I took some things that I liked the sound of, and I experimented using those things with an athlete or an athlete or a couple of athletes, and then was like, do I like that or do I not?
[40:29] SPEAKER_00: It was pretty rare though.
[40:30] SPEAKER_00: That that didn't happen that often because when you're a coach who does experiment a lot already, you're kind of constantly trying things.
[40:38] SPEAKER_00: So, like my coaching philosophy is always try things, see if they work.
[40:42] SPEAKER_00: Do they work for that individual?
[40:44] SPEAKER_00: If they don't scrap them, move on to something else.
[40:46] SPEAKER_00: So it like at my at the core of my programming and coaching, it didn't change too much.
[40:51] SPEAKER_00: There's been a couple of times where I'm like, you know, maybe I I try some extra volume based on on someone who's doing really well on a high volume program, and I've got an athlete who's doing low volume, and I'm like, yeah, you know what, volume does does matter.
[41:04] SPEAKER_00: Thank you for reminding me about that.
[41:06] SPEAKER_00: Let me go and add some volume to this athlete's program.
[41:08] SPEAKER_00: Um and something that a lot of like um people might not realize about sports science appo is when they when they have uh like when they have this idea in their head about what makes a a sports science based coach a sports science based based coach, they probably think, well, that that coach uses a lot of research and a lot of a lot of proof, a lot of a lot of they do a lot of reading of studies to kind of set this the the training that they're giving their athletes.
[41:34] SPEAKER_00: But that honestly is like completely removed from the truth of a sports science-based coach.
[41:40] SPEAKER_00: Because when you are when you are in the sports science world, you like I talked about with my answer to Vicky, you realize how limiting most research is.
[41:48] SPEAKER_00: It's all completely irrelevant to most practical applications because it's too short, it's too specific, and it just hasn't been tested in the real world.
[41:58] SPEAKER_00: So how sports science-based coaches work is they often just take what the best are doing and then they reverse engineer from there.
[42:05] SPEAKER_00: So, for example, uh maybe Christian Blumenfeld is the best in our sport or has been.
[42:11] SPEAKER_00: And so, what you do is you look at what is he doing, you try and get as much information about that as possible and break it all down and then apply it to your training.
[42:19] SPEAKER_00: And why I say that honestly it hasn't really changed the way I coach is because I was already doing that.
[42:25] SPEAKER_00: I just the the one thing it did is it gave me really easy access to like um asking questions I would want to ask that I might not get to ask if I was listening to them on another podcast or reading about their training.
[42:37] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's always been a really big part of my coaching to like look at what the best in the world are doing and then try and copy that or integrate that and and experimenting myself and seeing whether it works with athletes that I'm coaching because that is what sports science-based coaches do at the end of the day.
[42:53] SPEAKER_01: Who's had the craziest training regime that like when you were doing that um how they train podcast?
[43:01] SPEAKER_01: Do you have an athlete that stuck out that was like, Man, this guy's training insane?
[43:05] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, only one, Cam Brown, and like no one has even come close.
[43:09] SPEAKER_00: And that's a like a boring answer because he's an old athlete from it from yesteryear who most people listening to this probably weren't following Triathlon when he was one of the best in the world.
[43:18] SPEAKER_00: But honestly, no one's training has come close.
[43:22] SPEAKER_00: I was I was sitting there recording in that episode, and I still remember where I was and and all of it because I was just like, this guy's fucking mental.
[43:30] SPEAKER_00: Like he is insane.
[43:31] SPEAKER_00: He was doing 40 to 50 hours of training a week.
[43:34] SPEAKER_00: He he was just relentless.
[43:36] SPEAKER_00: He would like um he would like do a three-hour long run, eat a sausage roll, and then go and do a six hour long ride.
[43:43] SPEAKER_00: And like it was just the like pure old school way of training.
[43:47] SPEAKER_00: And and like even compared to like Craig Alexander and Chris McCormack and Mark Allen, who I've talked to, who were doing really high training volumes, none of them come close to the the volumes that Cam Brown was doing in training.
[43:58] SPEAKER_00: So if you haven't listened Of that episode, search Cam Brown on the Triton hour, go back and listen.
[44:03] SPEAKER_00: It's easily one of my favourite episodes I've done.
[44:06] SPEAKER_00: Just because Cam Brown was an animal and like he doesn't think it's weird, like he just thinks it's normal what he did.
[44:12] SPEAKER_00: So it's a really good listen.
[44:14] SPEAKER_01: He still does like six-hour bike rides on his TT bike, even though he's retired and everything.
[44:18] SPEAKER_01: He's still riding on those shitty New Zealand roads on his TT bike.
[44:22] SPEAKER_01: Probably 100 PSI and every tire as well, just bouncing around.
[44:25] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think he I think his heart's had a bit of problems too, but it doesn't stop him, you know.
[44:30] SPEAKER_01: Alright, moving on, um Vicky.
[44:34] SPEAKER_01: So we were talking about retirement, and I've got a bit of a retirement or maybe a reflection um question for you.
[44:42] SPEAKER_01: Is there any part of you that regrets not going to 70.3 or Iron Man after your short course career?
[44:50] SPEAKER_01: Um when you look back, do you feel like there's anything that's that you've left on the table that you wish you would have done before retirement?
[44:57] SPEAKER_01: Or are you completely content and happy you never delved into the middle distance and Iron Man game?
[45:03] SPEAKER_04: Uh so with short course, I left everything out there.
[45:06] SPEAKER_04: There's there was nothing else I could have done.
[45:08] SPEAKER_04: No stones went unturned, and that was the maximum I had.
[45:11] SPEAKER_04: Um, as for sort of going on to middle and long distance, I guess the short answer is no, I'm not disappointed I didn't give it a go because it came down to a straight shootout of going for a third Olympic Games or moving up to middle and long distance.
[45:28] SPEAKER_04: I was 35 by the time Tokyo rolled around because of the year delay, and then I knew I wanted to start a family.
[45:37] SPEAKER_04: So when you factor all that in, and then even coming back into the sport, there kind of just wasn't the time.
[45:42] SPEAKER_04: And if I had to choose again, I would always choose that shot at a third Olympics.
[45:47] SPEAKER_04: Like that, I've always been driven by the Olympics since I was six years old.
[45:51] SPEAKER_04: That was for me the absolute pinnacle of sport, it still is, and the fact that I got to go three times, I kind of still can't believe at points that I did that, and it was everything to me that I got to go and I got to have another shot.
[46:05] SPEAKER_04: And yeah, my third shot didn't pan out, but I absolutely wanted that way more than I wanted a shot at middle distance.
[46:12] SPEAKER_04: Now, in an ideal world, I would have had a couple more years, and yes, I would have liked to see what maybe would have been possible for me in the middle distance scene, but the type of athlete I am, it wouldn't have been a quick transition.
[46:25] SPEAKER_04: It wouldn't have been, I'm not someone who, like Taylor Nib, can one week be doing an Olympic distance race and winning it, and the next week winning a 70.3, and then next week doing an Iron Man.
[46:36] SPEAKER_04: Like that's just not me.
[46:38] SPEAKER_04: I would have needed to be very focused, I think, and very specific about training for middle distance.
[46:44] SPEAKER_04: So that would have taken me time, and I simply didn't have the time.
[46:48] SPEAKER_04: And so for me, it was just it was an easy choice.
[46:50] SPEAKER_04: Like I possibly could have gone into it when I came back to the sport after I had my first child, but I only trained for 18 months or just over 18 months in between having my first child and then retiring.
[47:03] SPEAKER_04: So I didn't have particularly long, and I think that would have even been probably not quite long enough.
[47:09] SPEAKER_04: I just about got to the point at the end of those 18 months where I was performing at the level I wanted to in short course.
[47:15] SPEAKER_04: I just I just don't think I had enough time.
[47:17] SPEAKER_04: So yeah, it was an age thing and a factor of having to make a priority decision.
[47:22] SPEAKER_04: And for me, that was short course because that was what always inspired me.
[47:25] SPEAKER_01: And you're in such rarefied air, like going to three Olympics, like how many people can say they've been to three Olympics?
[47:33] SPEAKER_01: Like, think about how hard it is to get like just to make one Olympic team and to go for that third one.
[47:39] SPEAKER_01: I don't think, yeah, I don't think you can look back with any regret on that.
[47:43] SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, great answer.
[47:45] SPEAKER_04: And and I'd be lying, I'd be lying if I said that another part of the reason why I went back to short course was because there was the lunar of a fourth.
[47:52] SPEAKER_04: Like that was that was a possibility.
[47:54] SPEAKER_04: I mean, I didn't get there, but I wasn't a million miles off, and I do think with a one more year it might have been a different story.
[48:00] SPEAKER_04: Um I didn't get that extra year because of COVID again.
[48:04] SPEAKER_04: Cheers.
[48:04] SPEAKER_04: Um, but I I would have liked, you know, again, if if it's a straight shootout between do you want to try for a fourth or do you want to give this long middle distance thing a year or two, I think I probably still would have gone for the Olympics again.
[48:17] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great answer.
[48:19] SPEAKER_01: All right, Greg, moving on to you, and surprise, surprise, it's a swimming question.
[48:25] SPEAKER_01: Um and I feel like this is pretty similar to what Vicky asked, but there's a little bit of difference here.
[48:30] SPEAKER_01: Um so obviously pool swimming and open water swimming uh they're different skill sets, right?
[48:38] SPEAKER_01: And you see a lot of people swim really well in the pool, but they can't convert that pool fitness to open water.
[48:45] SPEAKER_01: Um generally it doesn't happen the other way.
[48:47] SPEAKER_01: Generally, it's people struggling to convert you know pool times into open water.
[48:52] SPEAKER_01: What would you say is the biggest difference in technique and skills from swimming open water versus swimming in the pool?
[49:00] SPEAKER_01: And do you have any idea or or what's your best tips for preparing for these differences, like when athletes are coming from pool swimming into triathlon racing?
[49:11] SPEAKER_02: I get this question a lot, and I feel like I've changed my answer over the years.
[49:16] SPEAKER_02: And I will say, you're wrong, there are people who succeed in the open water who are not that good at pool swimming.
[49:22] SPEAKER_02: My dad was a um was an example of that.
[49:25] SPEAKER_02: He did have really long legs, so the wetsuit helped him uh hold up, but he was a water polo player.
[49:31] SPEAKER_02: Like awareness and like I always thought it was like the skill set thing.
[49:36] SPEAKER_02: It's it's so mental for a lot of people, I think.
[49:39] SPEAKER_02: Like they just get in the open water and they just they lose their confidence, they don't fight out there, and like they're like they don't know what's happening around them.
[49:47] SPEAKER_02: Like if you're swimming in the open water and it's and you know you're 30 seconds into a race and you're on the start line and you don't know where the first person is, like is he to the right, he's left, he's five meters ahead, you're you're off.
[50:00] SPEAKER_02: You're wrong.
[50:00] SPEAKER_02: Like you you have to understand that.
[50:03] SPEAKER_02: So I think that you know, people coming from like a water polo background or something, you you can really succeed.
[50:07] SPEAKER_02: You can, you know, we we friend of the show, Justin Reale.
[50:11] SPEAKER_02: I think he rest in peace.
[50:13] SPEAKER_02: Exceed rest in peace.
[50:15] SPEAKER_02: He exceeds his capacity in uh open water.
[50:18] SPEAKER_02: He came from a water polo background.
[50:19] SPEAKER_02: Um so now I think you can work on these things.
[50:22] SPEAKER_02: Like I I still think like doing other strokes in the water and you know, can you sprint a heads up 25 not that much slower than you can put do it with your head down?
[50:31] SPEAKER_02: Like sculling in different ways.
[50:33] SPEAKER_02: All these little skills in the pool I think help, but I think just being a dog out there, and I think Alistair Brownlee is like one of, you know, I don't know, do you guys know him?
[50:41] SPEAKER_02: Um never heard of him.
[50:42] SPEAKER_02: He's one of my favorite examples because his stroke sucks.
[50:46] SPEAKER_02: It's so bad.
[50:48] SPEAKER_02: But he has a high stroke rate.
[50:51] SPEAKER_02: It's it's shit.
[50:52] SPEAKER_02: It's shit.
[50:53] SPEAKER_02: Um he's got an incredibly high stroke rate and he can cite super well.
[50:57] SPEAKER_02: And I guarantee you he knows exactly what's happening with everyone out there.
[51:00] SPEAKER_02: So I think those are like common themes.
[51:03] SPEAKER_02: Like you have you don't have to be that technically sound because, like we said, I'm obviously the best swimmer in the sport.
[51:09] SPEAKER_02: I'm not that fast.
[51:10] SPEAKER_02: Sorry to break it to everyone.
[51:12] SPEAKER_02: I'm actually quite slow in the context of swimming uh in general.
[51:15] SPEAKER_02: So you just gotta be scrappy out there, like have a good stroke rate and be really aware.
[51:19] SPEAKER_02: And I think those things are like the the key uh parts.
[51:22] SPEAKER_02: But you know, working on your skills in the pool and and not neglecting being able to swim other strokes.
[51:27] SPEAKER_02: I think just general awareness for the water you can learn.
[51:30] SPEAKER_02: And yeah, freaking sign up for a club water polo uh team and and yeah, uh have fun with that.
[51:37] SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I I I think for a lot of pros, I think it's mental because it can be really tough out there.
[51:43] SPEAKER_02: Um, Cloud.
[51:45] SPEAKER_02: I'm just kidding.
[51:45] SPEAKER_02: All right.
[51:46] SPEAKER_01: That's interesting what you say about the stroke rate thing because when you're swimming in a pool, the water is very still, right?
[51:52] SPEAKER_01: And it's not really moving against you as such.
[51:55] SPEAKER_01: So you can get away with that longer, you know, loping um swim style, like an Ian Thorpe or something for those uh for those old hats that know Ian Thorpe.
[52:04] SPEAKER_04: Like he had that very glide as well.
[52:06] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that long glide, like the perfect you know, stroke.
[52:10] SPEAKER_01: But like you said, an Alistair Brownlee or another example that I think about is Josh Amberger, like not the best technical stroke, but he is just such an amazing swimmer that he can get that stroke rate up.
[52:21] SPEAKER_01: And when you've got water pushing against you to have that stroke rate to create that consistent propulsion, right?
[52:27] SPEAKER_01: I think that's super important in the open water.
[52:30] SPEAKER_02: Well, I'll say one more thing, because I tried to like body Josh off I think it was I forget Ed Worlds, like just tried to body him off someone's feet, and he like attacked me.
[52:40] SPEAKER_02: And like there's a reason why like he's as good a swimmer as he has, because he's like he's like packs a punch out there.
[52:45] SPEAKER_02: So you have to defend your space and be like really tough out there as well because you can get away with a lot in the open water.
[52:51] SPEAKER_02: Uh Alistair Brownley pushing down Chase McQueen, but that was that was a that was that was a fluke.
[52:59] SPEAKER_02: He would never uh yeah, anyway.
[53:01] SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a I think it's an interesting point, Greg, about like just being timid as an athlete.
[53:06] SPEAKER_00: I think triathlon and endurance sports as a whole can attract like real hard asses, but also real pussies at the same time.
[53:14] SPEAKER_00: Like if you're going and playing NFL or AFL or I don't know, what's a hard sport, maybe rugby if you're in the world.
[53:20] SPEAKER_00: Hard yeah, or MMA, you're not you're most likely not going to be a timid, scared pussy like 99% of the time.
[53:28] SPEAKER_00: Whereas Trithlon, it is a sport that might find someone who's a bit more timid, a little bit more shy, a bit more introverted, and and a bit scared at times when it comes to competing.
[53:38] SPEAKER_00: But unfortunately, when it comes to the swim, if you want to be the best open water swimmer you can be, you just can't afford to be.
[53:45] SPEAKER_00: So you like you you called out Ari Cloud, Greg.
[53:48] SPEAKER_00: I think it's a great call out.
[53:49] SPEAKER_00: He is someone who's too timid in the open water, he's a bit of a pussy, and I I think if you put him like head to head with Lionel Sanders in a pool, they're probably pretty comparable.
[53:57] SPEAKER_00: But Lionel Sanders in an Iron Man probably out swims him by four, five, six minutes at times.
[54:01] SPEAKER_00: And I think it does come down to what you're talking about.
[54:04] SPEAKER_00: So unfortunately, if you are someone who is a bit timid, a bit scared, you know, doesn't have awareness, doesn't have that dog in you, as Greg says it, you just have to find out a way to make yourself that version of who you maybe need to become so that you can be a better open water swimmer.
[54:21] SPEAKER_00: There's no way around it.
[54:22] SPEAKER_00: Don't be afraid, don't be scared, do what you gotta do to find your inner dog.
[54:27] SPEAKER_01: Alright, back to you, Jack.
[54:28] SPEAKER_01: This is pretty simple and concise.
[54:31] SPEAKER_01: In your opinion, are there many ways to skin a cat, or are all the top pros training pretty similarly to each other?
[54:38] SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, Apo.
[54:39] SPEAKER_00: I get fucking frustrated when I hear people say, and Craig Alexander has been saying it for as long as I've been in the sport.
[54:46] SPEAKER_00: He says, There's no secrets in this sport, you know, everyone pretty much knows what everyone else is doing.
[54:51] SPEAKER_00: That's such bullshit.
[54:52] SPEAKER_00: I I could not disagree with that anymore if I tried.
[54:56] SPEAKER_00: I think there's lots of pros and and age groupers who aren't achieving their potential purely because their training sucks.
[55:02] SPEAKER_00: And I think there's some pros and age groupers who are completely overachieving based on their physiology and potential because their programs and coaching are awesome.
[55:12] SPEAKER_00: And I'm so tempted to call people out here and name names, but like I can't, I can't do that.
[55:18] SPEAKER_00: But there's I can like there's five pros off the top of my head who I just look at and think you should be so much better, but your training sucks and you're not realizing it, and it frustrates the hell of out of me that you're not realizing it, and you're just showing up for another year in 2026 about to do the same thing and you're gonna underachieve again.
[55:36] SPEAKER_00: Um so I I do think there are many ways to skin a cat at uh bow, but I I don't think all the all the pros in the world are training the same.
[55:44] SPEAKER_00: I don't think everyone's on an even playing field when it comes to their their training knowledge, their training programming, their coaching.
[55:50] SPEAKER_00: Um I do think it's an area you should think about if you're a pro who wants to be the best you can be, or if you're an age group who wants to be the best you can be.
[55:58] SPEAKER_00: Really be diligent about the the coach that you get and the training that you're being set.
[56:03] SPEAKER_00: It does matter.
[56:04] SPEAKER_00: It isn't like you won't just inevitably get there if you if you if you do the work.
[56:09] SPEAKER_00: The work has to be the right work.
[56:11] SPEAKER_00: There is a lot of wrong, wrong training philosophy out there, in my opinion.
[56:14] SPEAKER_01: Alright, good answer.
[56:16] SPEAKER_01: Alright, Vicky, another um maybe reflection question for you.
[56:21] SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, I didn't realise that these were both uh reflection on your career questions.
[56:26] SPEAKER_01: Um pretty simple and maybe a little bit cliche, but what has been your career highlight?
[56:31] SPEAKER_01: Was it your bronze medal at Rio?
[56:33] SPEAKER_01: Or is there something else that you hold in a higher regard that perhaps people don't know about?
[56:38] SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, people see the I know from my career when I'm reflecting, like some of my best races that I'm most proud of are races that I didn't even win or even podium at, you know, like some of those races that people wouldn't even suspect are some of the races that I hold in higher regard than you know some of my 70.3 wins.
[56:57] SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering, is there something like that for you, or is you know, I never got a medal at the Olympics, I never went to the Olympics, so I can't really comment on that.
[57:06] SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that holds pretty high regard when you look back.
[57:09] SPEAKER_01: But is there anything else that um you know challenges that in your um career?
[57:15] SPEAKER_04: Well, firstly, Rio actually has to be the the number one race, the number one moment, because it was the moment that I fulfilled a lifelong dream.
[57:24] SPEAKER_04: You know, I'd loved the Olympics, as I said earlier, since I was six years old and I was 30 when I won that Olympic medal.
[57:31] SPEAKER_04: It was my second Olympics.
[57:33] SPEAKER_04: I had what I consider the perfect prep into that race.
[57:38] SPEAKER_04: Um, and then if I'm honest, it was a less than perfect day.
[57:41] SPEAKER_04: I was a bit sick on the day, but I I got the most out of myself that I could have done and delivering under that level of pressure, both internal and external, and stress, and the fact that it comes around just once every four years, I have such an appreciation now, more than I ever did, of how hard it is to get it right on that one day.
[58:04] SPEAKER_04: So, for all those reasons, it was Rio, um, you know, the pinnacle of sport for me.
[58:10] SPEAKER_04: But there are other races that came really close to that, you know, other big moments in my career.
[58:14] SPEAKER_04: Um, the winning I when I won a Commonwealth Games bronze medal, that was in 2014.
[58:19] SPEAKER_04: That was the first time I delivered a medal on the highest stage or or a really high international stage anyway.
[58:26] SPEAKER_04: And it was the kind of the moment that switched things for me because it made me believe that I could do more, and that maybe winning a medal at the Olympics wasn't a pipe dream.
[58:35] SPEAKER_04: So that was huge for me.
[58:36] SPEAKER_04: And again, I got the most out of myself I could have done on that day.
[58:39] SPEAKER_04: I think there were other athletes on paper who should have beaten me, but I got everything out, and so therefore I got a medal.
[58:46] SPEAKER_04: Um, winning a world title, something I never thought I would be able to do because it's won across a series across a whole year, and I've always considered myself, you know, a one-day performer and someone who can peak for that moment in a year but not be amazing across a whole season.
[59:00] SPEAKER_04: And then the way I did it in that race, I was um first out of the water, would you believe?
[59:05] SPEAKER_04: I mean, I didn't actually lead a single stroke of the swim, but I managed to swim up beside Jess Leamonth as we got out of the water and on the timing maps, they gave it to me.
[59:14] SPEAKER_04: So, you know, I'm still taking it as probably my only ever first out of the water.
[59:18] SPEAKER_04: Um, but I was in a breakaway, we we then did get caught, but then on the run, I got dropped, I came back into it, I did enough to win the title.
[59:24] SPEAKER_04: So there was things like that.
[59:26] SPEAKER_04: That those races are really, really special to me.
[59:28] SPEAKER_04: But all of them resulted it, had a great result.
[59:31] SPEAKER_04: Um, if you're asking about kind of uh more surprising ones, then at the very end of my career after I came back having had Emmy, uh, I think I had such a roller coaster of a year and a half that there were some races that went really, really well, especially towards the end, and I was able to retire on such a high.
[59:52] SPEAKER_04: Um, but there were some that were really awful.
[59:55] SPEAKER_04: And you know, there was a day where, without going into a lot of detail because it's really difficult to explain and it'll take us about two hours, that getting back into short course racing is really difficult, especially when I did it because there was no protection of my ranking as someone who took time out to have a baby.
[1:00:12] SPEAKER_04: That is now in place, but there was no freezing of your rankings, so my ranking dropped to about 250 in the world, and I couldn't even get into the races I wanted to get into.
[1:00:21] SPEAKER_04: So that meant that I spent the m probably the biggest proportion of my time racing again, chasing points and trying to get myself back into those races.
[1:00:30] SPEAKER_04: And by doing that, I made some poor choices, and sometimes I didn't get a choice, I had to go to this race somewhere I didn't want to go to that had terrible travel that was off the back of another race with awful travel, and and I had to just chase my tail all the time, which wasn't particularly beneficial.
[1:00:46] SPEAKER_04: And one of those times I made a decision, having gone to Japan and come back after a race there, to go to a race in Uzbekistan the following week.
[1:00:56] SPEAKER_04: So I went to Japan, raced, turnaround, came back to the UK, spent two days in the UK, went to Uzbekistan, raced there, raced awfully.
[1:01:04] SPEAKER_04: And it was the probably the 28th place, yikes.
[1:01:08] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think there was only about 30 in the race.
[1:01:10] SPEAKER_01: Um Did you just Google that, Greg?
[1:01:14] SPEAKER_01: How did you get there?
[1:01:16] SPEAKER_02: It's stalking me or can you can you comment on your world triathlon uh cup disqualification in 2024?
[1:01:23] SPEAKER_02: No, I'm just kidding.
[1:01:24] SPEAKER_04: Did I get disqualified?
[1:01:26] SPEAKER_04: That's what I did, okay.
[1:01:28] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, dude, I did.
[1:01:29] SPEAKER_04: I got disqualified.
[1:01:30] SPEAKER_04: I got a penalty and I didn't know I had a penalty.
[1:01:32] SPEAKER_04: And if you don't take the penalty and you finish the race, you get DQ'd.
[1:01:36] SPEAKER_04: So I got myself DQ'd.
[1:01:38] SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, that happened.
[1:01:40] SPEAKER_04: That's another awful moment that happened in my final year.
[1:01:43] SPEAKER_04: But this race in Uzbekistan, I was out the water so far behind everyone.
[1:01:47] SPEAKER_04: I just don't know what happened.
[1:01:48] SPEAKER_04: I think the whole week trying to back up from the week before the travel just caught up with me.
[1:01:53] SPEAKER_04: And in the water, I can't describe it.
[1:01:55] SPEAKER_04: Like I just couldn't make my arms move.
[1:01:57] SPEAKER_04: So bizarre.
[1:01:58] SPEAKER_04: And I came out the water and I was minutes behind.
[1:02:01] SPEAKER_04: And in short course racing, your day is so done at that point.
[1:02:04] SPEAKER_04: And I very nearly just walked off.
[1:02:07] SPEAKER_04: I so close to just walking off that course, but I didn't.
[1:02:10] SPEAKER_04: I carried on.
[1:02:11] SPEAKER_04: It wasn't pretty, but I got to the finish line.
[1:02:14] SPEAKER_04: And it's one of those days that Reese and I look back on, and we call it the you don't get in the boat day, because I very nearly got in the safety boat.
[1:02:22] SPEAKER_04: I very nearly was like, I am done, someone take me back to shore.
[1:02:26] SPEAKER_04: I'm out.
[1:02:26] SPEAKER_04: And I didn't, I carried on and I toughed it out, and I made it through on a two-hour Olympic distance race.
[1:02:31] SPEAKER_04: Badly, but I made it through.
[1:02:33] SPEAKER_04: And it's one of those days that I'm really proud of.
[1:02:35] SPEAKER_04: And I very nearly quit off the back of it as well, but I didn't because you don't get in the boat.
[1:02:39] SPEAKER_04: And that's that's something that's really special to me.
[1:02:42] SPEAKER_04: And the final thing to say is that my very, very last two races were a European championships and a World Series grand final, and I got to retire having won the world championship.
[1:02:53] SPEAKER_04: Sorry, won won the European Championship and came fourth at the grand final.
[1:02:58] SPEAKER_04: And the three people in front of me were first, second, and fourth at the Olympic Games that same year.
[1:03:03] SPEAKER_04: So after everything, I mean that race in Samakand and Uzbekistan had been in the May, and this was in like September and October.
[1:03:10] SPEAKER_04: So I've turned things around pretty drastically to be back at the top tier of racing and knowing everything that went in from pre-pregnancy, near retirement, to then going through pregnancy to try and get back into shape to going on this mad points hunt to finally getting back to where I wanted to be.
[1:03:27] SPEAKER_04: That was really special as well.
[1:03:29] SPEAKER_00: You forgot to mention that that was actually when you first met me as well, Vicky, and I was a big factor in that, very motivational to you, and I inspired you to those performances.
[1:03:37] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's right.
[1:03:38] SPEAKER_04: To be fair, it was.
[1:03:39] SPEAKER_04: I think I met you about two weeks after that race in Uzbekistan.
[1:03:44] SPEAKER_04: At that point, you must have been like, what a joker.
[1:03:46] SPEAKER_04: She's one of those people that Apo's spoken about and needs to retire.
[1:03:49] SPEAKER_04: Um but I stuck at it and I got I got my uh I got my mic drop moment instead.
[1:03:54] SPEAKER_01: Great answer, Vicky.
[1:03:55] SPEAKER_01: Um and you never regret finishing a race, right?
[1:03:59] SPEAKER_01: Like so many races, and I'm sure everybody listening, you know, goes to races where they want to quit and pull out.
[1:04:06] SPEAKER_01: But I've never finished a race and regretted finishing.
[1:04:09] SPEAKER_01: So in fact, it's quite the opposite.
[1:04:11] SPEAKER_01: Usually when it's going really bad and you do finish, that's kind of the one silver lining you can take.
[1:04:16] SPEAKER_01: Well, at least I finished it.
[1:04:17] SPEAKER_01: Finish where I started.
[1:04:18] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, definitely.
[1:04:21] SPEAKER_01: Alright, moving on to Gregory.
[1:04:22] SPEAKER_01: This one is simple, a bit of fun.
[1:04:24] SPEAKER_01: What is more elite?
[1:04:26] SPEAKER_01: A sub-four mile on the track, a sub-4 minute 400 freestyle long course, or a sub-eight-hour Iron Man?
[1:04:33] SPEAKER_02: It's definitely not a sub-eight-hour Iron Man, because that's not even hard.
[1:04:38] SPEAKER_04: Um all the comments on Spotify this week saying Greg needs to do an Iron Man pronto and get it under eight hours.
[1:04:49] SPEAKER_01: Set him up.
[1:04:50] SPEAKER_01: He took the bait everyone too.
[1:04:51] SPEAKER_01: He took it.
[1:04:52] SPEAKER_00: In 2026, we're gonna have a list of things that Greg has declared as not that hard.
[1:04:57] SPEAKER_00: We've already got number one, a sub-three hour marathon, and now number two, a sub-eight Iron Man.
[1:05:03] SPEAKER_02: And you know, obviously the times have gotten much faster.
[1:05:06] SPEAKER_02: But I think about the athletes that have gone under eight hours as an Iron Man.
[1:05:10] SPEAKER_02: You know, and there's tons of pros who've done that now.
[1:05:13] SPEAKER_01: And not all Cosmil doesn't count.
[1:05:14] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[1:05:15] SPEAKER_01: Cosmil doesn't count.
[1:05:16] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right, exactly.
[1:05:17] SPEAKER_01: If you've got a sub-eight at Cosmel, you have to go do that somewhere else.
[1:05:21] SPEAKER_02: But the amount of pro traathlets who have run like sub-4 minutes in a mile on a track, I think that I think about it in terms of world records a little bit, because the the mile and the 400 are very similar.
[1:05:31] SPEAKER_02: The world record in the 400 freestyle is 340, and the mile is 343.
[1:05:36] SPEAKER_02: So I think based on that, I have to pick the track.
[1:05:39] SPEAKER_02: I did run I did swim a sub four minute, 400 meter freestyle long course, but I the the depth of running though, too, like a 354 mile these days is actually not even that good, right?
[1:05:53] SPEAKER_02: I mean, not that good in the terms in the context of professional running or even NC2A running, is actually not that fast.
[1:06:00] SPEAKER_02: You know, I have a buddy who goes a 352 miler and he doesn't have a pro contract, right?
[1:06:04] SPEAKER_02: So I think I still think sub-4 mile on the track is harder, but yeah, sub four minute for freestyle second, sub-eight Iron Man, fucking easy.
[1:06:16] SPEAKER_00: I reckon I disagree with you, Greg.
[1:06:18] SPEAKER_00: I reckon that the hardest of those is the sub, like a legit sub-4, 400 meter in a 50 meter pool.
[1:06:26] SPEAKER_00: That is, I think that's just slightly harder than a sub-four minute mile.
[1:06:30] SPEAKER_00: But they're very, they're very, very close.
[1:06:32] SPEAKER_00: And I kind of got the sense that you think that as well, but you didn't want to put the swimming thing first.
[1:06:36] SPEAKER_00: And I reckon a sub-8-hour Iron Man is not even like in the ballpark of those two.
[1:06:40] SPEAKER_00: I would say it would be more like a sub-750 Iron Man or maybe even sub like 748, something like that.
[1:06:47] SPEAKER_02: I guess the the swimming is a little more nuanced because it's swimming and there's a technical aspect, but yeah, it'd be interesting to see how many like just tally it up and see how many humans on Earth have ever done either.
[1:06:58] SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's a fun one, Nappo.
[1:07:00] SPEAKER_02: Um so your sub eight hour sub eight-hour Iron Man, not impressive, dude.
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[1:09:49] SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'll start with uh Coach Jack.
[1:09:53] SPEAKER_02: Alright, easy writing.
[1:09:55] SPEAKER_02: Is there like a wattage or say percentage of FTP or threshold that is as too low for easy riding?
[1:10:02] SPEAKER_02: And like how much easy writing should be like say zone one versus zone two in a five-zone model?
[1:10:08] SPEAKER_02: And does it even matter?
[1:10:10] SPEAKER_02: And how do you define that with your athletes and who they are?
[1:10:13] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um, first point, intensity distribution, not like let's not just talk about zone one or zone two or zone three, four or five.
[1:10:22] SPEAKER_00: Intensity distribution as a whole in a training program is so individual, especially in a sport like triathlon.
[1:10:28] SPEAKER_00: So um, like say if you're coaching a runner or a cyclist, it's funny because you review the programs, you've set them over the course of a year.
[1:10:36] SPEAKER_00: And in a three-zone model or a five-zone model, it doesn't really matter.
[1:10:39] SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's a little different different in a five-zone model, but in a in a three-zone model, the breakdowns in intensity end up being really similar across all of your athletes, like all of your runners, all of your cyclists, their intensity distribute distribution breakdown ends up being very, very similar.
[1:10:56] SPEAKER_00: But with tri with triathletes, and I I can only really speak about my tri-athletes like coach, it actually varies a lot.
[1:11:02] SPEAKER_00: Um, and the reasons are we talked about one in your answer earlier, Greg, is that swimming has lots of intensity relative to volume.
[1:11:10] SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, you you just you end up doing a lot more um in in the zone three, four, five, six, if you use a six-zone model than what you do in other sports relative to the volume you do.
[1:11:23] SPEAKER_00: Uh and in your running, you you naturally do a much uh lower volume run program than a pure runner.
[1:11:30] SPEAKER_00: So naturally, your intensity distribution is more shifted towards the top of say a five-zone model than what a runner's is.
[1:11:38] SPEAKER_00: Like if you look at a runner, it's so common for a runner's intensity distribution over the course of a training block or a training year to be like 80 to 90% below LT1 and and maybe like one, two, three percent above LT2.
[1:11:53] SPEAKER_00: Like it's a really low number.
[1:11:55] SPEAKER_00: But with a triathlete, it can be like 60% below zone um two and and like 40% above zone two.
[1:12:02] SPEAKER_00: So much different, more different to a pure runner.
[1:12:05] SPEAKER_00: And same with a cyclist, cyclist numbers can be insane, like it can be like 95% zone one in their program throughout a year or in a training block.
[1:12:14] SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean that they do really low amounts of intensity, but just relative to the volume of training they do, their training is spent um a lot more distributed to the lower end of a five-zone model.
[1:12:26] SPEAKER_00: Um, for example, they might do 20 to 30 hours of wet uh of cycling a week, and let's say it's 30, like 27 of those hours might be in zone one.
[1:12:36] SPEAKER_00: Um Yeah, I like so so I I to get more specific about the question, Greg, I would say that a general rule of thumb is that the younger the training age of an athlete, the more time you want to program for them in zone one, and the older the training age of the athlete, the more time you want to program for them in like zone three, four, five, just because you said of a five-zone training model.
[1:13:01] SPEAKER_00: And again, if the athlete's training age is low, then there's no intensity that is too low to do your easy riding at because you're really just wanting the athlete to accumulate as much volume as they can tolerate.
[1:13:14] SPEAKER_00: So a lot of that is going to have to be super easy.
[1:13:17] SPEAKER_00: Whereas the better and more experienced an athlete and the older their training age, the more nuanced this discussion becomes.
[1:13:24] SPEAKER_00: And yeah, there probably is, especially as a triathlet, not a cyclist, there probably is riding that is just too easy.
[1:13:32] SPEAKER_00: And if you do it too often, you're most likely wasting your time and energy.
[1:13:36] SPEAKER_00: And that could be better spent doing other things in your cycling training or in your training program as a whole.
[1:13:42] SPEAKER_00: Because keep in mind we are swim, bike, run, not just cycling.
[1:13:45] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, but again, in saying that, training load is the king, which is volume times intensity.
[1:13:51] SPEAKER_00: Uh so if you're doing lots of volume, even if it is in zone one, and even if it is really easy, um, yeah, then then your your training load is probably going to be super high.
[1:13:59] SPEAKER_00: And it's never a bad thing for your training load to be super high.
[1:14:03] SPEAKER_00: But I do think there's better ways of getting there.
[1:14:06] SPEAKER_00: So um, if you're a good age grouper, if you're an experienced age grouper, if you're a professional, yeah, you probably don't want to be doing heaps of really easy zone one riding.
[1:14:15] SPEAKER_00: It's probably pointless.
[1:14:16] SPEAKER_00: And zone two, that's a whole other thing.
[1:14:19] SPEAKER_00: Like how much time do we have?
[1:14:20] SPEAKER_00: If you're a very rookie beginner triathlete, you your zone two doesn't matter.
[1:14:25] SPEAKER_00: Don't even worry about it, don't even think about it, don't worry about that word.
[1:14:28] SPEAKER_00: If you're a professional or a really good age grouper, then yeah, like a lot of your easy riding could probably be shifted more into zone two than zone one because it's a better use of time most of the time.
[1:14:39] SPEAKER_00: And zone two riding isn't super fatigue inducing.
[1:14:42] SPEAKER_00: If it's if it's progressing and becoming like zone three all the time, that can be an issue issue in and of itself.
[1:14:48] SPEAKER_00: And you probably want to shift that riding to be higher on the intensity scale and shift your easy riding down into the lower end of zone two or or higher end of zone one.
[1:14:57] SPEAKER_02: I think that's a really good answer.
[1:14:58] SPEAKER_02: I think people will um learn a lot from that.
[1:15:01] SPEAKER_02: Uh Apo, I don't even know I'm asking you training questions.
[1:15:05] SPEAKER_02: No, I'm just kidding.
[1:15:06] SPEAKER_02: Okay.
[1:15:06] SPEAKER_02: Uh should you always do harder sessions first in the day to keep quality higher?
[1:15:12] SPEAKER_02: Or like when is it important to do sessions fatigued?
[1:15:15] SPEAKER_02: And like how often should you do that?
[1:15:18] SPEAKER_02: Um, I guess in your opinion, and if maybe you were gonna put your coaching hat on, although I know you don't coach a ton of athletes, but um for for someone else as well.
[1:15:26] SPEAKER_01: I think that's it's different for a pro versus an amateur.
[1:15:30] SPEAKER_01: Like the athletes that I coach are all amateurs and um you know work-life balance and things like that.
[1:15:36] SPEAKER_01: I think personally, I like to do my hardest session first.
[1:15:42] SPEAKER_01: Um and generally if it's if I'm gonna do a fatigued session, like often I'll do a brick session or something like that.
[1:15:52] SPEAKER_01: Very rarely will I do a bike session in the morning and then go do a hard run session in the afternoon.
[1:15:58] SPEAKER_01: If I'm doing both of those in one day, I'll combine them into a brick session for me personally.
[1:16:04] SPEAKER_01: Um that's just how I like to do it to simulate the racing in Trithlon.
[1:16:09] SPEAKER_01: And um I think it is important to do some sessions fatigued, right?
[1:16:13] SPEAKER_01: Because Trithlon is when you're getting off the bike, you are fatigued, right?
[1:16:18] SPEAKER_01: You're never running fresh.
[1:16:19] SPEAKER_01: Um but then there is a compromise, right?
[1:16:22] SPEAKER_01: When you're doing sessions fatigued, you're likely not going to be hitting the same effort, output, paces, and things like that.
[1:16:28] SPEAKER_01: So I think it is important to do a mix of both fatigued and fresh.
[1:16:33] SPEAKER_01: Um if I this is just me personally, if I have a hard bike or run and a hard swim in one day, I will always do the hard swim later in the day because I don't know.
[1:16:45] SPEAKER_01: I just feel like nailing a hard bike or run is more important to me than nailing a hard swim.
[1:16:50] SPEAKER_01: And I can be pretty flexible with where I place my hard swims.
[1:16:54] SPEAKER_01: Like often if I go to the pool and you know I know I'm not having a great day, I can shift a hard swim to a recovery day or something, and it won't have any impact on the rest of my training week.
[1:17:05] SPEAKER_01: It's a bit harder to do that with the bike and run.
[1:17:07] SPEAKER_01: I would say if a session doesn't go as planned, it's very difficult to make up a hard bike or run.
[1:17:13] SPEAKER_01: Um but a hard swim, I think the overall load and toll that a hard swim takes on the body for me is less than it is on the bike and run, so I can be a bit more flexible with that.
[1:17:24] SPEAKER_01: Um I don't know, Jack.
[1:17:26] SPEAKER_01: Do you have any input on this?
[1:17:28] SPEAKER_01: I feel like this is a good question that you might you might totally just disagree with everything I've just said, but I'd be interested to hear your take on this.
[1:17:35] SPEAKER_01: I know it's not your question, um, but as I was talking, I was interested to s to hear what you uh had to say.
[1:17:41] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I won't encroach on what you've said too much, Apo, because it's your time to shine.
[1:17:45] SPEAKER_00: The the one thing I really disagree with is accidentally incorporating too many bricks into your training.
[1:17:51] SPEAKER_00: I hear you, I hear you.
[1:17:52] SPEAKER_00: This is a very Brett Sutton method, in that it's not swim bike run, it's triathlon.
[1:17:57] SPEAKER_00: But I think I think it's really important to keep as much of your training quality as high as possible.
[1:18:04] SPEAKER_00: And if you're doing your running like as a convenience thing, I've just done a hard bike session, I'm gonna get out and do this run.
[1:18:10] SPEAKER_00: It's convenient for time, it's convenient with your family, mentally it can be easier.
[1:18:14] SPEAKER_00: But sometimes you've got to step back and realize hey, this is hurting the quality of my run session.
[1:18:20] SPEAKER_00: And if I did take some extra time, or if I did the run first, like let's say you did six hours break between the bike and the run, or then you or you did the run first and then did six hours and did your ride, you're probably gonna get better quality out of out of that run session.
[1:18:35] SPEAKER_00: And I do think it's a trap to fall into that that a lot of like triathletes will at certain points in their career is just doing like all of their easy running as bricks, all of their sessions as bricks, or just way too many.
[1:18:46] SPEAKER_00: I reckon you should actually uh err on the side of caution with that.
[1:18:50] SPEAKER_00: And even if it's like, oh yeah, I just want to go and get this done, like fuck it, I like then I have the my whole day free and I can lay on the couch or I can go and be social.
[1:18:58] SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that's what's gonna get the absolute most out of your performance.
[1:19:02] SPEAKER_00: It won't kill your performance, but like over time, if you do it too often, your running isn't gonna be as good as what it it could be if you if you were focusing on getting the the the absolute most quality out of those run sessions.
[1:19:16] SPEAKER_00: That's the one thing that I I kind of really disagreed with um on what you said, Appa.
[1:19:20] SPEAKER_02: Fair enough.
[1:19:21] SPEAKER_02: Vicky, we don't care about your opinion.
[1:19:22] SPEAKER_02: So I'll ask you a question instead.
[1:19:25] SPEAKER_02: Um Is there a period of like I'm gonna say triathlete's life, but I'm curious.
[1:19:31] SPEAKER_02: I know you're not a pure runner, but you could throw this in there as well.
[1:19:34] SPEAKER_02: Um, where they should kind of find out how much running they can handle, maybe the trial of miles.
[1:19:40] SPEAKER_02: And do you think that's necessary for reaching potential as a runner?
[1:19:44] SPEAKER_04: Well, I had a little bit of a think about this, and I I'm not sure if I ever did that.
[1:19:49] SPEAKER_04: Um in with a coach that I had quite early on in my career, we did do a few sort of hundred-mile weeks.
[1:19:58] SPEAKER_04: Uh, it was in off-season, and to be honest, I felt like shit off it.
[1:20:02] SPEAKER_04: Um, I didn't race immediately off that, and I said it was it was in a different time of the year, so I can't really be sure if it did anything for me.
[1:20:11] SPEAKER_04: I mean, I didn't get injured, which is one positive, but I didn't feel good for doing it either.
[1:20:16] SPEAKER_04: Um, I would say that uh I probably maybe inadvertently found my top limit of what I could do throughout my career, but it wasn't kind of the main thing we were trying to achieve.
[1:20:29] SPEAKER_04: I guess at my biggest periods of training, I was doing 80 to 85k a week, and that was kind of mid-season.
[1:20:36] SPEAKER_04: Um, I was doing that quite routinely with quite a lot of, you know, two sort of real intense sessions in there a week as well.
[1:20:43] SPEAKER_04: Um, and that worked really well for me that I did that through the summers of probably 2015 all the way through to 2021.
[1:20:51] SPEAKER_04: Um, and that that definitely gave me my best results.
[1:20:55] SPEAKER_04: I'm not 100% convinced it's necessary to find out what your absolute maximum volume is because I don't really believe that volume is absolutely everything.
[1:21:05] SPEAKER_04: But there is a school of thought, and I do agree a little bit to say that running if you can run more, you're probably gonna get a bit faster.
[1:21:15] SPEAKER_04: So maybe finding out where your ceiling is isn't a bad idea, but I just think you've got to be so careful of how you do it.
[1:21:21] SPEAKER_04: You can't just one season decide, oh sorry, I'm gonna see how far I can run every week for six weeks, and if I don't get broken, I'll be really fit.
[1:21:30] SPEAKER_04: I think that's just a bit of a disaster, a recipe for disaster.
[1:21:34] SPEAKER_04: So I think a much more sensible way of doing this, sort of, as you said, called it a trial by miles, is year on year just creep that up.
[1:21:43] SPEAKER_04: So say one year over winter you're consistently hitting 80 to 90k a week, or maybe the next winter you're trying to go 90 to 95, and then just see whether that does actually give you some results.
[1:21:55] SPEAKER_04: If you're still improving every year at that, I don't know, 80 to 90k mark, um, then maybe you don't actually need to increase it and the risk it just doesn't pan out.
[1:22:05] SPEAKER_04: The risk reward isn't worth it.
[1:22:07] SPEAKER_04: But if you've stagnated a little bit, then maybe trying to add in a little bit more each winter is worthwhile.
[1:22:13] SPEAKER_04: But especially if you're a professional athlete, the risk of just slamming in super high volume, I don't think it's worth it because the risk reward of getting injured or ill is just too high.
[1:22:24] SPEAKER_00: I think with this, Vicky, you're like you've just described progressive overload in a roundabout way.
[1:22:30] SPEAKER_00: Like if you're a good coach or a good athlete, you should know about basic training principles, and progressive overload is one of those things.
[1:22:37] SPEAKER_00: So, of course, if you're gonna do what Greg's talking about here and just figuring out what is the limit, you can't do it in a stupid way.
[1:22:45] SPEAKER_00: You've got to do it in a progressive way where you're overloading over time.
[1:22:48] SPEAKER_00: That is like that's just a non-negotiable, like duh.
[1:22:52] SPEAKER_00: Of course, you have to do it like that.
[1:22:53] SPEAKER_00: But remember like coaching and and becoming the best athlete you can be, it is an experiment.
[1:23:00] SPEAKER_00: So stop trying to avoid that.
[1:23:02] SPEAKER_00: Stop like if you have a coach who tries to like pretend that they're not experimenting, then they're either a shitty coach or they're a liar.
[1:23:10] SPEAKER_00: Like, experimentation is like a fundamental part of being a good coach.
[1:23:16] SPEAKER_00: And and so you do need to figure out what your athletes or your own limits are, otherwise, you're never gonna be the best version of yourself.
[1:23:24] SPEAKER_00: So stop avoiding that.
[1:23:26] SPEAKER_00: Like, stop being scared of that.
[1:23:28] SPEAKER_00: Go out and find your athlete's limits, or if you're self-coach, go out and find your own limits, do it progressively over time.
[1:23:35] SPEAKER_00: And once you hit the limit, you'll know where it is, and then that's gonna be helpful in guiding your training for the rest of your time in in whatever sport you're doing.
[1:23:43] SPEAKER_00: So don't be scared of finding your limits, don't be stupid in how you do it, but don't be scared of it.
[1:23:48] SPEAKER_02: Love that.
[1:23:49] SPEAKER_02: And I feel like over as you get older, like maybe the limit slightly comes down.
[1:23:54] SPEAKER_02: Maybe you guys would agree with that too.
[1:23:55] SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe if you're in your your late 30s or something like that.
[1:23:58] SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so Jack, question for you.
[1:24:01] SPEAKER_02: Now, you answered part of this question already, so I'm gonna kind of simplify it.
[1:24:05] SPEAKER_02: Lt1.
[1:24:07] SPEAKER_02: Do you think this is an important training metric?
[1:24:09] SPEAKER_02: And what about an important performance metric?
[1:24:13] SPEAKER_02: Like particularly around Iron Man, I guess.
[1:24:15] SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, well, if it's particularly around Iron Man, then it changes it.
[1:24:18] SPEAKER_00: But um take a step back, uh, defining LT1.
[1:24:22] SPEAKER_00: So uh LT1 it's your aerobic threshold, um, and it's the point where blood lactate starts rising above resting levels, but it's still stable.
[1:24:32] SPEAKER_00: Okay, um and like to answer your question, is it important?
[1:24:38] SPEAKER_00: Like, well, yes, but also it's not some magic number relative to any other physiological marker.
[1:24:45] SPEAKER_00: Um, and and like you said, if it's if it's based on Iron Man, then yeah, like if it's is it important that question, it's completely dependent on the event you're training for.
[1:24:55] SPEAKER_00: So if you are doing an Iron Man or if you're running a straight marathon or an ultra marathon, or if you're a professional uh world tour cyclist, then your LT1 is a really important metric.
[1:25:06] SPEAKER_00: But if you're doing 70.3 or shorter racing like Vicky has done her whole career, um half marathons, which is a very common entry level, and probably a lot of people um listening to this episode right now are training for a half marathon, have in the past or plan to in the future, then it's still an important metric, but it's probably less important than your VO2 max and your LT2.
[1:25:28] SPEAKER_00: Um, and and those two things might become a bit more of a focus point in your training and like trying to get your LT2 to be um at a really high percentage of your VO2 max, like not and not doing that by lowering your VO2 max, keeping your VO2 max really high or increasing it, and then progressively getting your LT2 closer to your VO2 max when it is at a high point, is what you might spend more time focusing on.
[1:25:51] SPEAKER_00: Um, and like a lot of people new to the sport, they get obsessed with zone two training, and you and like that's what I did just talk about before a little bit, Greg.
[1:26:00] SPEAKER_00: But if you're really new to endurance training, then zone two literally might not exist for you.
[1:26:05] SPEAKER_00: Like, have you guys ever heard stories about people who they try and stay in their zone two heart rate when they're out in a run and they can't do it?
[1:26:13] SPEAKER_00: Like they get to a hill and their heart rate goes above what their zone two is based off like these generic, hey, like calculations of what your zone two is.
[1:26:21] SPEAKER_00: So they say to their coach, oh yeah, but I went up a hill and my my heart rate went above zone two, and then their coach might say to them, Oh, well, just you gotta do whatever you whatever you gotta do to keep your heart rate in that zone two.
[1:26:33] SPEAKER_00: So you just gotta walk up the hills.
[1:26:35] SPEAKER_00: Like that's the stupidest shit ever.
[1:26:37] SPEAKER_00: And it's just a complete misunderstanding of physiology.
[1:26:40] SPEAKER_00: If you're a really untrained athlete, where if you've had heaps of time away from sport and you're coming back, if you're just getting into things, you literally might not have a zone two that you can work in.
[1:26:51] SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's just physiologically impossible.
[1:26:53] SPEAKER_00: You have zone one and you have like zone four and five, and that's that's all you have.
[1:26:58] SPEAKER_00: So realizing that is is important.
[1:27:00] SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, uh like if you are that, if you're a new athlete, if you're a super unfit person, if you're just getting back into your training, don't even worry about your LT1, don't even worry about your LT2, don't worry about your zone two.
[1:27:13] SPEAKER_00: It's all not applicable to you.
[1:27:15] SPEAKER_00: Um and my second point would be if you're a middle-of-the-pack athlete, you're not bad, but you're not poding your age group either, then don't worry about your LT1 almost at all.
[1:27:24] SPEAKER_00: It's not the secret for you.
[1:27:26] SPEAKER_00: Just spend more time at either end of your zones, and over time your VO2 max will naturally improve, as will your LT1 and your LT2 while we're at it, um, and all aspects of your physiology while we're at it.
[1:27:38] SPEAKER_00: The specificity dark hole, it's just not your friend.
[1:27:41] SPEAKER_00: It's only ever going to make you end up in a worse position.
[1:27:44] SPEAKER_00: So if your coach is constantly setting you like LT1 reps and you're like not really that good of an athlete, I don't know.
[1:27:51] SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a little bit pointless.
[1:27:52] SPEAKER_00: Um, even if you are training for a marathon or an Iron Man where it is an important physiological marker, it's just not something you should really.
[1:28:00] SPEAKER_00: Focus on in your training and obsess over.
[1:28:02] SPEAKER_00: Just spend lots of time developing in every area of your physiology and do lots of volume and touch on all intensity zones pretty frequently and you'll improve.
[1:28:10] SPEAKER_00: And then my third and last point would be if you're a better age group triathlete or a better age group or amateur runner or a professional, you don't you shouldn't become obsessed with your LT1.
[1:28:22] SPEAKER_00: Just let volume and time do its work.
[1:28:24] SPEAKER_00: Your LT1 will improve if your volume is high at an acute and chronic level.
[1:28:29] SPEAKER_00: Spend periods of time trying to improve your improve your VO2 max.
[1:28:33] SPEAKER_00: Spend periods of time trying to improve your LT2 through like correctly integrated intensity rather than thinking, oh, I need to add all this really specific LT1 training, which might be closer to my marathon pace or my Iron Man bike power.
[1:28:47] SPEAKER_00: Like just keep your volume high at all times.
[1:28:50] SPEAKER_00: Do your long rides, do your long runs, and your LT1 will take care of itself.
[1:28:53] SPEAKER_01: A little anecdote, Jack.
[1:28:55] SPEAKER_01: You're talking about the zone two running and walking up hills and things, and I'm just getting back into some training.
[1:29:01] SPEAKER_01: He's been walking up hills.
[1:29:03] SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, I didn't, but I fucking wanted to yesterday, I'll tell you that much.
[1:29:06] SPEAKER_01: No.
[1:29:06] SPEAKER_01: But in terms of like I did a 10k run yesterday with some strides, and I averaged the whole run, I felt awful.
[1:29:14] SPEAKER_01: I averaged 448 kilometre pace and an average heart rate of 151.
[1:29:19] SPEAKER_01: So that like a heart rate of 151 for me is like way above what it should be for a 448 average pace, right?
[1:29:29] SPEAKER_01: But you know, if I tried to stay in zone two, which for me um you know is way lower than that 151, I would have had to have been walking.
[1:29:37] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
[1:29:38] SPEAKER_04: So can we just um address the fact that you who are current professional athlete as has a high heart rate at the moment for doing what you'd call pretty basic training?
[1:29:47] SPEAKER_04: Jack, who is giving me all sorts of grief on my Strava at the moment for my power being pretty low, I can I can confess it's not great.
[1:29:57] SPEAKER_04: Jack's giving me all sorts of grief.
[1:29:59] SPEAKER_04: Someone who hasn't ridden their bike in over a year and is about two months postpartum, and you're giving me shit because my power's not very good.
[1:30:06] SPEAKER_04: I'm not a professional athlete anymore, Jack.
[1:30:09] SPEAKER_00: Got him.
[1:30:09] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[1:30:10] SPEAKER_00: Firstly, everyone, you you just heard it.
[1:30:12] SPEAKER_00: Vicky is officially on Strava, so go and um search Vicky Holland on Strava.
[1:30:16] SPEAKER_00: Give her a follow.
[1:30:17] SPEAKER_00: She's only been on it for about five days and she's already got as many followers as Greg.
[1:30:21] SPEAKER_00: So let's make sure that you all go and follow her so that she overtakes Greg, who's been on Strava for his entire career.
[1:30:27] SPEAKER_00: Um, secondly, Vicky, your power on the bike has been pathetic, Vicky.
[1:30:31] SPEAKER_00: There's no way around it.
[1:30:33] SPEAKER_00: You're unfit, you're slow, you're weak, you need to get better.
[1:30:37] SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna break one 1730 in the half marathon, you got a lot of work to do in 2026.
[1:30:42] SPEAKER_04: Correct, I do, but I don't need you bullying me, all right?
[1:30:45] SPEAKER_04: Support, please.
[1:30:48] SPEAKER_00: Challenge first, support second.
[1:30:50] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:30:51] SPEAKER_04: I've seen it.
[1:30:52] SPEAKER_01: This is the tree of trust.
[1:30:54] SPEAKER_00: And yeah, Apo's anecdote is really good.
[1:30:57] SPEAKER_00: Like, if let's say if Apo's coach had said, hey, go out and do your 10k easy with some strides, keep your heart rate between 120 and 130, which is what that run might be for Apo when he's really fit, that training session is going to absolutely suck.
[1:31:10] SPEAKER_00: Like, that's completely stupid and completely pointless.
[1:31:13] SPEAKER_00: If Apo's heart rate is a bit higher, that's fine.
[1:31:16] SPEAKER_00: He's just getting back into his training.
[1:31:18] SPEAKER_00: So if you're just getting getting back into your training in this period, don't be all guided by heart rate that is kind of irrelevant to where your fitness is at at the moment.
[1:31:26] SPEAKER_00: If your easy running is a little bit harder and feels a little bit harder and your heart rate's a little bit higher than what it was at the end of 2025, just let it be that.
[1:31:34] SPEAKER_00: Don't be scared of it.
[1:31:35] SPEAKER_00: Naturally, over four, five, six weeks, it will get lower, it will get easier.
[1:31:40] SPEAKER_00: Don't like, don't kind of try and do it the opposite way where you keep everything in the zones when you were really fit and like try and be the athlete you were four, five, six weeks ago before you before your off season.
[1:31:52] SPEAKER_00: So really good anecdote, Apo.
[1:31:54] SPEAKER_00: And uh, my advice to you is on your next run, do the same thing, and you'll probably notice your heart rate's a little bit lower, even if it's only two, three, four beats per minute.
[1:32:02] SPEAKER_00: And then that'll happen over the course of two to three weeks, and you'll be back where you are.
[1:32:05] SPEAKER_00: But don't try and like lower your pace just to get your heart rate lower.
[1:32:10] SPEAKER_02: What he didn't tell us is he had three IPAs the night before and slept like shit.
[1:32:14] SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah.
[1:32:18] SPEAKER_00: Okay, so a quick break from the show to talk about something that's a game changer, not for your training, but for your online life, and that's Nord VPN.
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[1:33:29] SPEAKER_02: Alright, question for you, Apple.
[1:33:31] SPEAKER_02: So you were very slippery, as they say, on the TT bike.
[1:33:35] SPEAKER_02: Did that always come natural to you?
[1:33:37] SPEAKER_02: And kind of what are your three best, I don't know, sessions or tips to become a beast time trialist and kind of hold really good form over the course of you know a half or a full Iron Man?
[1:33:48] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so like Jack said earlier at the start of the pod, we've had these um questions in the running sheet, so we've had time to think about it.
[1:33:55] SPEAKER_01: Um but I've never really done um you know, you see people doing exercises and drills, time trial drills, etc.
[1:34:05] SPEAKER_01: And I've never been one that's um had to do that.
[1:34:08] SPEAKER_01: I've I've had I got a bike fit um probably like 2012 or 13 when I first started doing 17.3s from a friend of mine in uh in Sydney that owns a good bike fitting business, and I've pretty much kept that same position, like the foundation of that same position, my whole career, and then just made small tweaks here and there.
[1:34:30] SPEAKER_01: Um but I don't really do any drills or anything.
[1:34:34] SPEAKER_01: I know you see some it's really popular in the UK, like the time trialing forums and things, they're all talking about drills and head tuck and things like that.
[1:34:42] SPEAKER_01: And I've never really done any of that.
[1:34:45] SPEAKER_01: I will say I do quite a lot of um like my bike sessions on the trainer, and I think trying to hold that TT position um in the intervals is really important, and often you will feel like, man, I just want to break T T position because I know I can hold 10 watts more if I get on the base bar, right?
[1:35:05] SPEAKER_01: But I think it's pretty important to try and resist that urge and try and stay in the TT position for as long as possible.
[1:35:12] SPEAKER_01: But I think the main thing is just getting comfortable.
[1:35:15] SPEAKER_01: I think comfort trumps speed, right, um, to begin with, and then you can start iterating on your position to become faster.
[1:35:23] SPEAKER_01: I think you know, there's no point in getting a really, really fast position if you can only hold it for ten minutes when when you've got to be out there for, you know, two hours, four hours, six hours for some amateurs.
[1:35:34] SPEAKER_01: I think it's important to get established comfort first and then iterate from there.
[1:35:38] SPEAKER_01: Um and then just spend as much time as possible in the TT bars.
[1:35:41] SPEAKER_01: And when you're out on the road as well, like do most of your efforts in the TT position.
[1:35:46] SPEAKER_01: We're safe, of course, um, and things like that.
[1:35:49] SPEAKER_01: It just comes with time, and um, yeah, that's pretty much all I can say.
[1:35:53] SPEAKER_01: I don't do any drills or anything.
[1:35:55] SPEAKER_01: I know people do the head tuck, um, the sh shoulder shrug and things like that.
[1:35:59] SPEAKER_01: And while I think that can be beneficial, um, you also doing the head tuck and the shoulder shrug is also hard to do out on the road, right?
[1:36:07] SPEAKER_01: So you've got to be what you can hold on the trainer is obviously a lot different to what you're gonna hold on the road because you don't need to navigate, you don't need to look for potholes and um you know control the bike.
[1:36:16] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think it's important um to practice outside and inside as well, and yeah, just as much time as possible in the bars.
[1:36:25] SPEAKER_00: Appba, you know how they talk about like it takes three weeks to develop a habit or whatever it is.
[1:36:30] SPEAKER_00: I reckon that riding your TT bike is very similar to starting a new diet or a new training program where the start period is the hardest.
[1:36:39] SPEAKER_00: Like if you're someone who really struggles to hold TT position, day one of going, okay, today I'm gonna spend as much time in my intervals in my TT bars as possible is the hardest.
[1:36:51] SPEAKER_00: Then day two is the second hardest, then day three is the third hardest.
[1:36:54] SPEAKER_00: But what will happen is if you just push through it, like it's like if you're someone who really struggles with eating too much and you're laying in bed at night on your first day of your new diet, and you're thinking about you're obsessed about food, you're thinking about that Tim Tam.
[1:37:07] SPEAKER_00: We know Vicky has been doing that a lot recently, or you're thinking about KFC and you just want to go and order Uber Eats at midnight.
[1:37:14] SPEAKER_00: That's kind of the same as as becoming a really good time trialist.
[1:37:18] SPEAKER_00: You've got to just push through the hard times at the early part of trying to become a good time trialist when it sucks, when you're just like, fuck, all I want to do is sit up.
[1:37:26] SPEAKER_00: Don't don't let yourself, like Greg talked about in the swim start, don't be timid, don't be a pussy, be tough on yourself, stay in the TT position.
[1:37:35] SPEAKER_00: And what you'll realize is in four or five weeks' time, it's so, so, so, so much easier to stay in TT position, and you've got yourself to thank four or five weeks ago when you didn't leave it on that rep on day one or day two or day three.
[1:37:50] SPEAKER_01: One quick caveat.
[1:37:51] SPEAKER_01: If you're doing a VO2 session or something, or like one minute intervals where you're trying to just hold your best power possible, I don't think holding T T position for something like that is as important as if you're doing threshold reps or something like that.
[1:38:05] SPEAKER_01: So if you're doing a VO2 session, um, you know, I often even do those on my road bike or something like that, where it's just about absolute power.
[1:38:12] SPEAKER_01: But yeah, threshold stuff, I think.
[1:38:14] SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, TT position all the way.
[1:38:17] SPEAKER_00: Amen.
[1:38:18] SPEAKER_01: Love that.
[1:38:19] SPEAKER_02: All right, Vicky.
[1:38:21] SPEAKER_02: You've reached the pinnacle of our sport.
[1:38:24] SPEAKER_02: And I had a little caveat here.
[1:38:26] SPEAKER_02: 45 seconds from the pinnacle of our sport.
[1:38:29] SPEAKER_02: But when you put back on your chair, I take it!
[1:38:32] SPEAKER_04: I agree with you, Greg.
[1:38:33] SPEAKER_04: I'm on that.
[1:38:35] SPEAKER_00: Shout out to Gren Jorgensen.
[1:38:37] SPEAKER_02: Uh I had to look up the results.
[1:38:39] SPEAKER_02: We didn't nip Non Stanford by three seconds.
[1:38:41] SPEAKER_02: Man, I bet she never uh forgave you for that one.
[1:38:43] SPEAKER_00: So Greg, this is classic though, because you know that Non and Vicki are pretty much best friends, and Vicky stole Non's bronze medal by three seconds from it.
[1:38:52] SPEAKER_02: No, she earned it.
[1:38:53] SPEAKER_02: She didn't steal it.
[1:38:54] SPEAKER_02: Um stir in the pot.
[1:38:56] SPEAKER_02: So so when you look back at the training, what like really worked and and what didn't work kind of over the course of a career?
[1:39:04] SPEAKER_02: And let's say like pre-baby, because I think you know, obviously things look different um on the other side of that.
[1:39:10] SPEAKER_02: And you've you've touched on that before.
[1:39:12] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I guess I've probably trained in every different way you can, where it's been very much about intensity and low volume, or completely the opposite, or a polarized approach.
[1:39:23] SPEAKER_04: You know, I've done most things across my career, and I think the turning point for me was being able to consistently train high volume.
[1:39:32] SPEAKER_04: I think when I cracked that, the results followed relatively quickly afterwards.
[1:39:38] SPEAKER_04: And that was basically when I moved to Leeds at the end of 2013.
[1:39:43] SPEAKER_04: Um, this place is is known, of course, for Alistair and Johnny and the the kind of training methodology that they adhered to that was essentially train hard and train a lot.
[1:39:54] SPEAKER_04: Um, and that's what we all did.
[1:39:57] SPEAKER_04: And you either got broke or you got good.
[1:39:59] SPEAKER_04: Um, broken, I should say.
[1:40:01] SPEAKER_04: Um, not broke as in you had no money, broken as in you were injured or ill.
[1:40:06] SPEAKER_04: Um and yeah, for me, that's what really worked.
[1:40:10] SPEAKER_04: And I would say that period of time, especially in the build-up to Rio, was probably the best block of training I've ever done.
[1:40:19] SPEAKER_04: Like I said, I touched upon it earlier.
[1:40:22] SPEAKER_04: Um, I went into that season, already auto-qualified for the Rio Olympics.
[1:40:26] SPEAKER_04: So then we kind of kept things relatively low-key through the early part of the season, and it was sort of almost like intentional underperforming to keep making sure I was doing all the base work that I needed to do.
[1:40:38] SPEAKER_04: So I went into some of those races a little bit undercooked.
[1:40:41] SPEAKER_04: And then after the final race, I was going to do before um Rio, um, I came out of that race.
[1:40:48] SPEAKER_04: I think I was fourth.
[1:40:49] SPEAKER_04: It was an average performance, I wasn't great.
[1:40:51] SPEAKER_04: I went away and did like the best six-week block of training I've ever done in my life, where I think I only had one day, one session where I adjusted it at all.
[1:41:00] SPEAKER_04: I thought I might have been on the edge of getting sick, and so I reduced a ride length.
[1:41:04] SPEAKER_04: Um, I think actually we just found the ceiling, we'd found the limit of where I could push to.
[1:41:08] SPEAKER_04: We brought it back down a bit.
[1:41:09] SPEAKER_04: Um, I did a four-week block there that was at altitude that went really well.
[1:41:13] SPEAKER_04: I then did two weeks back at sea level that was the finishing touches, flew out to Rio for five days before the race, and I just couldn't have done any more.
[1:41:23] SPEAKER_04: I remember just being so excited to go to that race because I knew that I was in the best shape I could possibly be in.
[1:41:30] SPEAKER_04: So that was something that definitely, definitely worked for me.
[1:41:34] SPEAKER_04: Um, I would say, in terms of things that didn't work for me, I don't actually think there was a type of training that didn't work.
[1:41:41] SPEAKER_04: I just think that was the one that worked the best.
[1:41:44] SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think the only times in my career where I think things didn't go as well were things almost that were out of my control.
[1:41:50] SPEAKER_04: You're ill or you're injured or COVID, things like that really affected my end result.
[1:41:57] SPEAKER_04: Um, I had another really good block, I should say, in the build-up to the 2019 test event in Tokyo.
[1:42:02] SPEAKER_04: I was absolutely back to my very, very best for that race, having not had a great season.
[1:42:08] SPEAKER_04: Um, and then World Traff absolutely shafted me by changing the event on the morning at 3:30 a.m.
[1:42:15] SPEAKER_04: to a full-distance swim, a full distance bike, and a half distance run.
[1:42:19] SPEAKER_04: Um, as someone whose strength was my run, that was not ideal for me.
[1:42:24] SPEAKER_04: Um I've still not forgiven them for that.
[1:42:26] SPEAKER_04: Uh completely unprecedented change in the race distances.
[1:42:30] SPEAKER_04: It was due, I should say, to temperature.
[1:42:31] SPEAKER_04: They uh had forecast that the temperature was going to be so hot by nine o'clock.
[1:42:36] SPEAKER_04: I mean, obviously it's Tokyo, it's August, um, that we had to do a shorter distance run.
[1:42:42] SPEAKER_04: And it it messed me over in so many ways because I didn't get to show what I could do over 10k.
[1:42:48] SPEAKER_04: I was very, very well heat-prepped.
[1:42:50] SPEAKER_04: We'd done both altitude and heat in the preparation for that race.
[1:42:53] SPEAKER_04: Both of those things, again, I should say, work really, really well for me.
[1:42:56] SPEAKER_04: Altitude, probably slightly better than heat, but both of those things I respond really well to.
[1:43:01] SPEAKER_04: So, in training blocks into big races, I would always try and incorporate those.
[1:43:06] SPEAKER_04: Um, and then again, the the negative one, the one that sticks out as being the block that I didn't want was the build into the Tokyo Olympics itself.
[1:43:15] SPEAKER_04: And that one was for several reasons.
[1:43:17] SPEAKER_04: COVID, it just hampered everything, access to facilities, ability to go onto training camps, ability to ride in groups, train in groups.
[1:43:26] SPEAKER_04: We had lots of restrictions in the UK, which just meant it was a really, really tough way to train into a massive race.
[1:43:34] SPEAKER_04: Um, and on top of that, I had some problems with my shoulder, which we couldn't diagnose at the time, found out sort of a year and a half later what I was dealing with.
[1:43:42] SPEAKER_04: So things like that meant that my blocking of training into Tokyo was not what I'd want it to be.
[1:43:48] SPEAKER_04: But it wasn't because we were doing the training wrong, it was because of other factors.
[1:43:52] SPEAKER_04: So essentially, I think high volume worked for me.
[1:43:56] SPEAKER_04: I think um keeping some really high intensity, some polarized training worked best for me.
[1:44:02] SPEAKER_04: I think altitude worked really well for me, and I think heat worked really well for me.
[1:44:05] SPEAKER_02: What a surprise.
[1:44:06] SPEAKER_02: You train a lot the most you can and you have the best results.
[1:44:10] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's not really that surprising, is it?
[1:44:12] SPEAKER_04: When you look at it like that.
[1:44:14] SPEAKER_00: And that's Alistair Brownlee's method as well.
[1:44:16] SPEAKER_00: Training load is king.
[1:44:17] SPEAKER_00: And you went into that system and and kind of realized the same thing that your your training load, it like you can't you can't make up for it if you don't have it.
[1:44:25] SPEAKER_00: And once you have it, you realize, oh shit, it really is the be all and end all.
[1:44:30] SPEAKER_00: Like that doesn't matter about the secret session or that kind of thing if your training load's not there.
[1:44:34] SPEAKER_00: Um, okay.
[1:44:35] SPEAKER_00: I'll finish off with my questions and and it then it's a another uh fantastic addition of the triathlon three hours.
[1:44:41] SPEAKER_00: I'll start with Apo.
[1:44:43] SPEAKER_00: Apo, you've been in the sport for 20 years.
[1:44:45] SPEAKER_00: In your experience in training, what separates the best athletes from the good athletes from the athletes who can never quite make it?
[1:44:54] SPEAKER_01: Ooh, that is a tough one.
[1:44:56] SPEAKER_01: Um I think you guys kind of touched on it before, and um there's an element of you have to rise to the occasion, right?
[1:45:08] SPEAKER_01: Like you see it so many times.
[1:45:10] SPEAKER_01: Like athletes are so good at training, but they can't execute in racing, and vice versa.
[1:45:15] SPEAKER_01: Athletes are quite mediocre in training but have the ability to rise to the race.
[1:45:19] SPEAKER_01: And I think it's kind of like what we were touching on in that swim.
[1:45:24] SPEAKER_01: Like you gotta be aggressive, right?
[1:45:26] SPEAKER_01: You gotta shift that mindset, you gotta get into that racing mood.
[1:45:30] SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, there's some athletes that just thrive on training that can't execute in racing.
[1:45:35] SPEAKER_01: And um another thing I would say it's consistency.
[1:45:40] SPEAKER_01: I think consistency is still king.
[1:45:42] SPEAKER_01: Um it's all about like you guys said, the load as well.
[1:45:47] SPEAKER_01: And when you can stack that load for months and years on end, like that's gonna lead, it's gonna yield results, right?
[1:45:53] SPEAKER_01: And I think some people have come into the sport looking for quick results, and yes, that may happen, but I think um time in the sport is the biggest indicator of um success, right?
[1:46:05] SPEAKER_01: You look at all the really good athletes, they've been in the sport for such a long time, and even though you might not have heard about them until recently, like they've been toiling away behind the scenes for many years, and I think consistency is king.
[1:46:18] SPEAKER_01: I think it's one of the most important things that contributes towards racing success.
[1:46:24] SPEAKER_00: Greg, you've run 70 minutes for a half marathon.
[1:46:27] SPEAKER_00: What do you think are the key factors in running your fastest half marathon?
[1:46:32] SPEAKER_02: Consistency over time.
[1:46:34] SPEAKER_02: No, I mean I obviously that is incredibly important.
[1:46:38] SPEAKER_02: Um I think that like not overdoing, I mean, I'm kind of speaking from personal experience, because I don't really coach people to like set their per personal bests and half marathons that much.
[1:46:50] SPEAKER_02: I mean, you we do it in a nutshell, but not like I'm not coaching a pro runner to that.
[1:46:55] SPEAKER_02: But I just think like you can't get away from volume.
[1:46:58] SPEAKER_02: And like doing I think doing two sessions that are a little bit more controlled, like say you're really sub-threshold, versus maybe one session that's like very hard, hard that'll take a lot out of you, is like kind of better for that type of running.
[1:47:12] SPEAKER_02: Like you don't have to be in your best 5k shape ever to be a half good half marathon.
[1:47:17] SPEAKER_02: You're probably gonna be in decent 5k shape, but I think for the half, and what I found success was like doing two like really controlled good sessions in the in a long run where maybe you go a little harder or maybe you don't, depending on the week.
[1:47:30] SPEAKER_02: So I just think that those things are like just kind of stacking the work in a consistent way and and not not crushing like too much hard track workout where you're kind of on the floor at the end of it.
[1:47:43] SPEAKER_02: Um, although you know, maybe pro runners would would disagree, but I think if you're doing that in the context of triathlon training, it's like a successful way.
[1:47:52] SPEAKER_02: Not not necessarily a you know, you can go like top-down or bottom-up kind of in training, like you start with the fast stuff, but I think kind of going bottom up and running is just a safer way to do it to keep that consistency because threshold plus and VO2 run work is the most risky, too.
[1:48:09] SPEAKER_02: So in terms of getting sick or getting injured.
[1:48:11] SPEAKER_02: So being consistent is about like just keeping it in control uh over time.
[1:48:19] SPEAKER_00: The single hardest thing about training is being consistent.
[1:48:22] SPEAKER_00: And there's nothing more frustrating than when you want to be consistent or you've finally found some consistency and you get yet another running-related injury, like Achilles pain, a stress fracture or reaction, runner's knee, or some plantar fasciitis.
[1:48:34] SPEAKER_00: That's exactly where lever can help.
[1:48:37] SPEAKER_00: Lever is a tool that allows you to keep training while reducing impact so you can recover, rebuild, and stay on track with your running.
[1:48:44] SPEAKER_00: Lever is a bodyweight support system that attaches to your treadmill and can remove up to 45 pounds or 20 kilos of your body weight while you run.
[1:48:52] SPEAKER_00: By reducing impact, it helps you train through little niggly injuries, safely rebuild after some time off running, and increase your mileage without fear of breaking down.
[1:49:02] SPEAKER_00: And it's not just for rehabbing, although that is a great use for it, it's also a tool for performance.
[1:49:07] SPEAKER_00: What many people don't know is that seven of the top 11 women at the 2024 IMAN World Championships used Lever to train and recover in the lead up to the race, including the world champion.
[1:49:18] SPEAKER_00: Lever is lightweight, it's portable, and connects with a digital scale so you can dial in exactly how much load you want to take off while you run.
[1:49:27] SPEAKER_00: Exclusive to the Trithon hour listeners, you can use the code TTH to get you 20% off your lever system.
[1:49:35] SPEAKER_00: Um, to do that, just visit levermovement.com and start running smarter today.
[1:49:40] SPEAKER_00: Get consistent in your running.
[1:49:42] SPEAKER_00: It's the main thing that will get you running faster.
[1:49:47] SPEAKER_00: Vicky, both of my questions uh to you revolve around 5 and 10k running.
[1:49:52] SPEAKER_00: You said it yourself.
[1:49:53] SPEAKER_00: Your strength was your running.
[1:49:55] SPEAKER_00: You never really got to see where that turned out to put you in a marathon or A half marathon, I suspect it would have been very good, but we know that you got very good at the five and the tenk, so I'm gonna ask you about that.
[1:50:06] SPEAKER_00: My first question is generally speaking, the best five and tenk runners care about their body composition or their weight, even whether they talk about it or not.
[1:50:16] SPEAKER_00: Generally speaking, they think about it and they care about it.
[1:50:19] SPEAKER_00: When you were at your Olympic medal winning best or your world championship winning peak, did you care and think about your weight?
[1:50:28] SPEAKER_00: Even if it was secretly while like you projected outwardly into the world that you didn't care about it or you didn't think about it.
[1:50:34] SPEAKER_00: That's part one.
[1:50:35] SPEAKER_00: And part two, do you think we've gone too far in one direction of body body positivity and not talking about it and pretending that it doesn't impact how fast we run as a as a sport in triathlon?
[1:50:48] SPEAKER_04: Okay, so um I did care about my weight, that's absolutely a fact, but I cared about other things way more.
[1:50:57] SPEAKER_04: So at times I I cared too much about my weight, and I'll touch on that a bit, I guess, but um I cared about other things, so making sure my sessions were done to the level I wanted to do, working on my weaknesses, discovering what those were, and really trying to improve that race dynamic strategy.
[1:51:15] SPEAKER_04: You know, that that was way more important to me than what a number on a scale said.
[1:51:21] SPEAKER_04: Um early on in my career, I did have some bad experiences where weight became a huge focus, um, whether that was a coach putting that on me or whether that was something I took on myself.
[1:51:31] SPEAKER_04: And I never had an eating disorder, but I would say I had a pretty messed up relationship with food and with my own body for a while.
[1:51:39] SPEAKER_04: And I am really proud that I got myself out of that to a point where I wasn't impacted by food in that same way.
[1:51:47] SPEAKER_04: I have a healthy relationship with food now.
[1:51:49] SPEAKER_04: As we all know, I'm very big on chocolate and biscuits and cake, you know, we we've touched on that already.
[1:51:54] SPEAKER_04: Um I didn't spiral ever into a full-on eating disorder, I didn't leave myself with problems with my metabolism.
[1:52:01] SPEAKER_04: Um, I was able to get myself to a point where I had a very, as I said, healthy relationship with food and with my body.
[1:52:08] SPEAKER_04: Um, now triath one is obviously a weight-affected sport, you can't really get away from that, but I would always rather be a kilo over than a kilo under.
[1:52:18] SPEAKER_04: I think the risk reward for that performance benefit isn't worth it.
[1:52:21] SPEAKER_04: Being a kilo under, you very, very quickly get found out with both injury and illness and constant issues.
[1:52:29] SPEAKER_04: Bone density is affected pretty quickly.
[1:52:32] SPEAKER_04: Um, and you know, my best weight wasn't necessarily what someone else's best weight would have been.
[1:52:38] SPEAKER_04: And you know, everyone's body composition is very different.
[1:52:41] SPEAKER_04: So for me, being 56-57 kilos, that was probably the sweet spot.
[1:52:46] SPEAKER_04: Um, and that was what I would keep an eye on going into the very biggest races, like the Olympic Games or a World Champs final.
[1:52:54] SPEAKER_04: Um, 58 was still okay, um, but then I was 55 in Tokyo, and I don't think that made me any better.
[1:53:00] SPEAKER_04: So I I think it's it's different for different people.
[1:53:04] SPEAKER_04: Um, I was also quite lucky that I didn't really have to do too much to get to the weight I wanted to be at when I was looking at it, and again, it was pretty rare that I was focusing on it, but when I did, it was probably just eating a little bit less chocolate, to be honest.
[1:53:22] SPEAKER_04: Um, I utilized altitude for that as well.
[1:53:24] SPEAKER_04: I mean, it wasn't for that reason, I should say.
[1:53:26] SPEAKER_04: Altitude had multiple benefits to me, and I definitely responded really, really well to training at altitude, but a sort of side effect of that was that I did tend to get a little bit leaner while I was there.
[1:53:37] SPEAKER_04: Um, and then to touch on the other thing that you asked regarding body positivity and stuff, uh, I don't actually think it's body positivity, is the reason that we kind of don't talk about it anymore.
[1:53:49] SPEAKER_04: Um, I think it's because it's actually kind of not really anyone else's business.
[1:53:54] SPEAKER_04: Um, what you weigh and what you look like, why are we commenting on other people's bodies?
[1:53:59] SPEAKER_04: I think it's just accepted now that that's not really appropriate and possibly does push people down a path that leads to unhealthy habits and that are extremely hard to come back on.
[1:54:10] SPEAKER_04: And if you're not a professional athlete, I don't think your coach should pretty much ever be bringing that up to you.
[1:54:16] SPEAKER_04: Um, if you are a professional, then it's a conversation that can be had, providing it's done in the right way.
[1:54:22] SPEAKER_04: But usually even then it's still athlete-led.
[1:54:24] SPEAKER_04: It's brought up by the athlete who might say that they want to lose a kilo or so.
[1:54:28] SPEAKER_04: And it's important that the athlete does it if they are going to do it, they tell the coach because the coach needs to know so that they can support in appropriate ways, guide them to a nutritionist, um, tailor training appropriately.
[1:54:39] SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, you know, done in the right way as a coach, you can still question your athlete.
[1:54:45] SPEAKER_04: You know, is this a is this something that you're comfortable with?
[1:54:47] SPEAKER_04: Are you comfortable at the weight you're at now?
[1:54:48] SPEAKER_04: Is this something that you want to look into?
[1:54:50] SPEAKER_04: But you think you've got to be so careful because I just think first and foremost, as a coach, you have a responsibility to look after your athlete's mental health before trying to optimize their performance.
[1:55:02] SPEAKER_00: I love all of that, Vicky.
[1:55:03] SPEAKER_00: Particularly your point.
[1:55:04] SPEAKER_00: If you're an amateur athlete in any sport, runner, cyclist, triathlet, and your coach brings to the table your weight and you haven't brought it up.
[1:55:12] SPEAKER_00: Like I don't want to be extremely, but it's yeah, pretty much.
[1:55:16] SPEAKER_00: That's pretty much like fire that person on the spot.
[1:55:19] SPEAKER_00: Oh shoot.
[1:55:20] SPEAKER_00: No, I'm just kidding.
[1:55:21] SPEAKER_00: That's what Greg does to all these athletes.
[1:55:24] SPEAKER_00: And and and and you're right, even for a professional, if you're coaching a professional, that's a nuanced conversation that I I don't think you can take lightly, can you?
[1:55:32] SPEAKER_00: Um and love it.
[1:55:33] SPEAKER_00: I just thought all of that was like yeah, I loved all that, Vicky.
[1:55:36] SPEAKER_00: I I couldn't agree more with anything that you said.
[1:55:38] SPEAKER_00: Um, all right, Appo, on to your your last question for the podcast.
[1:55:43] SPEAKER_00: Um You've come fourth, fifth, and sixth at the Iron Man 70.3 World Championships.
[1:55:49] SPEAKER_00: You've won 20 70.3 crowns.
[1:55:52] SPEAKER_00: I don't know if people listening to this podcast know that about you.
[1:55:55] SPEAKER_00: I don't talk about any of that very often.
[1:55:58] SPEAKER_00: But going into 2026, you've touched on it, but I want to I want to focus in on your training.
[1:56:03] SPEAKER_00: Not all this other stuff, not your racing, nothing, your training.
[1:56:07] SPEAKER_00: What do you believe are the three things you need to do to not only get back to your best level, but maybe even surpass your best when it comes to um this year 2026?
[1:56:18] SPEAKER_01: First off, I think I need to run more, pretty simple.
[1:56:23] SPEAKER_01: Um over my career I've definitely veered into the low mileage on running.
[1:56:29] SPEAKER_01: Like Vicky touched on it before when she was saying, Oh, she used to run 85 to 90k run weeks and even over a hundred K.
[1:56:36] SPEAKER_01: And I can't remember the last time I've done over a hundred K run week.
[1:56:40] SPEAKER_01: I last year training for Iron Man Western Australia, I did I think I did a 95k run week, and that was the biggest week that I could remember for a couple of years, and I think generally my average weekly volume is very low, like probably within 60 to 70 kilometers, and I think we need to increase that.
[1:57:01] SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just need to do more running.
[1:57:03] SPEAKER_01: I think I need to improve my economy in my upper cycling zones.
[1:57:08] SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm quite good.
[1:57:10] SPEAKER_01: My aerobic threshold is quite good, but as soon as I get close and above my FTP, my lactate spikes through the roof.
[1:57:18] SPEAKER_01: So I think I need to get more economy in those zones, like four, five, and six.
[1:57:23] SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's the second one.
[1:57:26] SPEAKER_01: Third, maybe if I've done one for the bike, one for the run, maybe just be a little bit more present with my swimming.
[1:57:36] SPEAKER_01: Um, I know I'm famous on the podcast for going to the pool and just doing 4K straight or four times one thousand.
[1:57:43] SPEAKER_01: And that's generally because I just don't really enjoy swimming, right?
[1:57:46] SPEAKER_01: And I just am like, alright, I've got to get to 4K.
[1:57:50] SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna get this done in 55 minutes, I'm gonna do four times one thousand on you know, fourteen minutes or something.
[1:57:57] SPEAKER_01: Kind of slow, but well, this is aerobic, Greg.
[1:58:00] SPEAKER_01: Come on.
[1:58:01] SPEAKER_01: Um and I think for some reason I just get in my head that I want to hit between like 20 and 25 kilometers of swimming a week.
[1:58:10] SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I don't even care how that happens.
[1:58:13] SPEAKER_01: I just want to hit that number, and I will go to the pool and I'll just swim an hour straight five days in a row, and then that'll get me to my 25k.
[1:58:22] SPEAKER_01: I think I need to do less of that and be more intentional with my swimming.
[1:58:26] SPEAKER_01: Um, and even if that means doing less volume um but more specific stuff, I think I'm going to get better.
[1:58:34] SPEAKER_01: Um like even Greg, you said you swim like 15k a week, right?
[1:58:37] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like 15 to 20.
[1:58:39] SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, it kind of depends, but I would say that in in in a training load, yeah.
[1:58:43] SPEAKER_00: If you think of like Alistair Bradley or Maddie Hauser or Jonas Schomberg as like the gold standard of what Greg pitches while he's making love, then what you just described that you do in your swim programming has to be the complete opposite end of that.
[1:58:57] SPEAKER_00: Like that has to that has to put Greg's penis back inside his body.
[1:59:03] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's called inverted end.
[1:59:06] SPEAKER_01: Um so that's the three, maybe yeah.
[1:59:08] SPEAKER_01: I just did one for each discipline.
[1:59:09] SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, how was that?
[1:59:11] SPEAKER_00: I like it.
[1:59:12] SPEAKER_00: Get to work.
[1:59:13] SPEAKER_00: All right, Greg.
[1:59:14] SPEAKER_00: My last question for you, your last question of the podcast, and try and remove me uh in your answer to this.
[1:59:19] SPEAKER_00: What is the number one attribute that you look for in a coach or that you think other people should look for in a coach?
[1:59:25] SPEAKER_00: What are the shiny, flashy kind of resume pieces that you think don't actually matter at all for a coach?
[1:59:32] SPEAKER_00: Um, but they might look good, but but the substance behind them isn't really there.
[1:59:36] SPEAKER_00: Um, versus what are the potentially like kind of forgotten about, uh maybe potentially seen as insignificant things that you think make a coach special and are non-negotiables uh in your mind for them to be the best coach for you?
[1:59:51] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, this is it's a funny question because I had coaches thrust upon me my whole life, and then at a period where, you know, my dad coached me for a bit, and then I coached myself, and now it's kind of the first year I have a coach again.
[2:00:02] SPEAKER_02: It's gonna sound like kind of funny, but I think the mo number one attribute that I was kind of looking for in a coach was someone like who believed in me.
[2:00:12] SPEAKER_02: Which sounds like Yeah, it's just kind of funny because maybe I had kind of lost that in myself a little bit over the last you know few years.
[2:00:20] SPEAKER_02: So um I think that's I think that's kind of forgotten about um in a in a coach-athlete relationship.
[2:00:27] SPEAKER_02: Like kind of find a coach who is like, yeah, man, like you're in a good spot.
[2:00:31] SPEAKER_02: Like I I think we can get a lot better.
[2:00:33] SPEAKER_02: Like I believe in you as an athlete and just having a coach who you can sense like believes in you and you want to keep getting better.
[2:00:41] SPEAKER_02: I think that's big just for yeah, just for like athlete and coach relationship.
[2:00:46] SPEAKER_02: Um I think all the resume stuff, you know, like the level we've talked about, like all these certifications and you know, I'm not gonna poo-poo sports science degrees because I think those are important, but you have to take off your scientist hat and put on a coaching hat and like use that knowledge to to help your coaching, but not guide it per se, you know.
[2:01:05] SPEAKER_02: So I think you, you know, oh I have a PhD.
[2:01:07] SPEAKER_02: It's like that, yeah, but are you like a you know, are you personable?
[2:01:12] SPEAKER_02: Because you can be a really smart PhD sports scientist, it's definitely not gonna make you a good coach.
[2:01:17] SPEAKER_02: So um I think just communication and and and all that is is super important and undervalued, and you know, the especially if they you know if they have a level, if they have an Iron Man circuit certification, like get out of there.
[2:01:29] SPEAKER_00: Um red flag.
[2:01:32] SPEAKER_02: But you know, it's funny you you brought up something about friend and athlete, and you know, I had a coach in college, and it it was more about and that's a team atmosphere, but it's about managing people, and he wasn't our friend, right?
[2:01:45] SPEAKER_02: He was trying to extract performance out of us.
[2:01:47] SPEAKER_02: So I think that that can be a little different for a one-on-one coach.
[2:01:51] SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, don't don't chase the titles and have someone who kind of believes in you and and you know has has six obsessed themselves or with other athletes to kind of fall back and guide them, and they definitely can't have all the answers because that's no good coach has all the answers.
[2:02:07] SPEAKER_00: I like it.
[2:02:08] SPEAKER_00: And our last question for the podcast, um Vicky, it's it's fitting that it's for you.
[2:02:12] SPEAKER_00: We really have uh become the trifle on two hours.
[2:02:15] SPEAKER_00: I just wonder if in 2026 we we should officially change the name.
[2:02:18] SPEAKER_00: But I th I've I I don't know.
[2:02:20] SPEAKER_00: I I'm curious um uh what everyone listening thinks, whether they've enjoyed this, because I really enjoy these just kind of informal training discussions, and uh I kind of like not having to talk about the news of the week.
[2:02:31] SPEAKER_00: So I've really enjoyed this, so let's finish it strong.
[2:02:33] SPEAKER_00: Um it's becoming increasingly common in a long-distance trython world where people's A races are 21 kilometres for the half marathon or 42 kilometres for the marathon, um, for people to start their years in in a in a like using reverse periodization in their training program, Vicky, for where, for example, they might like start the year by focusing on trying to lower their five or ten KPs or or get faster in the run, and then as they get closer to their A race, whether it's middle of the year or end of the year, they become more specific to their their pace that they're going to run for 21 kilometres or 42 kilometres.
[2:03:12] SPEAKER_00: Like I said, you specialized in the five and ten kilometre run your whole career.
[2:03:16] SPEAKER_00: In your opinion, what are the three most important run sessions for being the best 5k runner that you can possibly be?
[2:03:23] SPEAKER_00: And what are the three most important sessions for being the best 10 kilometre runner that you can be if those things are different?
[2:03:31] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so the first thing I would say is that for me fundamentally they're not that different.
[2:03:36] SPEAKER_04: Um, 5k sessions, 10k sessions, that they're pretty much the same.
[2:03:40] SPEAKER_04: You just run for slightly longer and at a slightly slower pace if you're doing a 10k session than if you're doing a 5k.
[2:03:46] SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, not that different.
[2:03:49] SPEAKER_04: Uh, I would say no session is super important or super key, but I can give you examples of kind of my favourites and why we did them.
[2:03:58] SPEAKER_04: Um, and I guess the the biggest thing to sort of underline is that the way I think you run fast is with a good engine and great mechanics.
[2:04:08] SPEAKER_04: Um, and you develop those in completely different ends of the spectrum in how you run, but those are kind of the fundamentals that you need to put in early on.
[2:04:18] SPEAKER_04: So, with that in mind, the first session that I would say is um creating fitness-based, so you might be on an easy jog, but incorporate at the end of that session eight by 100 meter strides or similar.
[2:04:31] SPEAKER_04: It doesn't have to be exact, run for 20 seconds, do it on a good surface, do it where you can um make sure that you are thinking about your your technique, the stimulus is is neurological, and it's because it really increases that mechanical efficiency.
[2:04:47] SPEAKER_04: You need to be able to run fast mechanically well, and so that is the number one thing.
[2:04:51] SPEAKER_04: It's a really simple session, just put in strides at the end of your easy run.
[2:04:56] SPEAKER_04: And you know, you might even do that for five, six, seven, eight weeks before you actually start putting in really other sessions that matter.
[2:05:05] SPEAKER_04: That is a really important, I think, part of the session.
[2:05:07] SPEAKER_04: The week one, you're gonna feel clunky, it's gonna feel uncoordinated, but it should get easier and faster with time.
[2:05:15] SPEAKER_04: You should feel more smooth as you do it.
[2:05:17] SPEAKER_04: Um, the next session I would say that's important is a short fart lick, and I guess this is probably more 5k specific.
[2:05:24] SPEAKER_04: And with that, you might be doing um 60 seconds on, 60 seconds off, or something like 60 on, 60 off, then 30 on, 30 off.
[2:05:32] SPEAKER_04: Um, and you're doing that for around 20 minutes, and you're looking at going faster than 5k pace.
[2:05:38] SPEAKER_04: It's a really good VO2 session.
[2:05:40] SPEAKER_04: Um, obviously, the longer you go, it becomes a bit more thresholdy.
[2:05:43] SPEAKER_04: But that was a session I really like.
[2:05:45] SPEAKER_04: Um, the next session I would say is a track session.
[2:05:50] SPEAKER_04: So probably something like four to five K on the track.
[2:05:54] SPEAKER_04: Um, as a bit of background, running that sort of programme here in Leeds where we did sort of high volume across the board, swim, bike, and run, um, but really polarized.
[2:06:03] SPEAKER_04: So you're either going pretty easy or you're going really hard.
[2:06:06] SPEAKER_04: We never ran harder, we never ran further than about 5k on the track, even when we were prepping specifically for 10k.
[2:06:13] SPEAKER_04: Um, 5k was the absolute top that we did, but it was all fast, so way faster than race pace.
[2:06:20] SPEAKER_04: Um, so with that, with like a 4x, it might be four or five by kilometres, uh, with 200 meters jog, real joggy though.
[2:06:27] SPEAKER_04: So you're talking like 90 seconds, maybe even more than that.
[2:06:30] SPEAKER_04: Um, it's great for overall conditioning.
[2:06:33] SPEAKER_04: Um, and it's just fast running, real VO2, mechanical stimulus.
[2:06:37] SPEAKER_04: Again, I really love these fast sessions because I think that that mechanical stimulus, you can't get it if you're running too much at race pace.
[2:06:44] SPEAKER_04: So that's why I really like that one.
[2:06:46] SPEAKER_04: The next one is uh a long fartlek.
[2:06:49] SPEAKER_04: So I've done the short fartleck, now we're on the track and we're doing maybe up to eight kilometres or so on the track, and it might be done as 200 meters, 300 meters, 400 meter reps, and then you're taking sort of again 200, 300 meters off each rep as well.
[2:07:04] SPEAKER_04: But this time you're trying to keep the off quite high.
[2:07:09] SPEAKER_04: And I should have said actually with your earlier short fartlek as well, you're trying to keep when I said it was 60 on 60 off, your on might be for me, for example, three minute per K, but your off is four minute per K.
[2:07:20] SPEAKER_04: So it's it's not really, really easy.
[2:07:23] SPEAKER_04: You're not kind of stopping, catching your breath, you're keeping on going.
[2:07:26] SPEAKER_04: Same with the long fartlek.
[2:07:28] SPEAKER_04: It might be that my on was more like three tens because we're now kind of bringing that pace down a little bit, but your off is still trying to be about four minute perquet.
[2:07:36] SPEAKER_04: It's it's both a kind of pulling your ceiling up from above, but also pushing from below.
[2:07:41] SPEAKER_04: It's both of those two things at the same time.
[2:07:44] SPEAKER_04: And really, you're you're producing lactate, you're not really able to flush it, but you're learning to tolerate it, you're learning to sit with that lactate.
[2:07:51] SPEAKER_04: It's awful the first week you do it, but it just gets better.
[2:07:55] SPEAKER_04: Um, and then the last session I'm going to give you, because I'm also going to give you one that I don't think you need.
[2:08:00] SPEAKER_04: Um, this is session number five, is sort of a 30 minutes of work.
[2:08:05] SPEAKER_04: Break that down in any way you can, but that 30 minutes of work needs to be as fast as you can sustain.
[2:08:12] SPEAKER_04: It's all above threshold.
[2:08:13] SPEAKER_04: It's the same reasons I've spoken about, it's being as conditioned about running as fast as you can, never longer, probably than a 10-minute rep, but you can go down to two minutes if that's what you want to do.
[2:08:24] SPEAKER_04: You tend to take 90 seconds to two-minute recoveries.
[2:08:28] SPEAKER_04: You can mix it up.
[2:08:28] SPEAKER_04: I mean, an example would be two by six, two by five, two by four, all with two-minute recoveries in between.
[2:08:35] SPEAKER_04: Um, you can do it on trail, you can do it on road, you can do it on track, you can do it on a path, you can do it on the grass if you want to.
[2:08:42] SPEAKER_04: There's a lot of grass running in the UK.
[2:08:44] SPEAKER_04: Um, it kind of takes pace out of it a little bit, you focus more on RPE.
[2:08:48] SPEAKER_04: I think that's a good way of doing it.
[2:08:50] SPEAKER_04: Um, it's also really good for pacing because if you go out like a bat out of hell in the first two minutes, you're gonna get found out.
[2:08:57] SPEAKER_04: But if you pace it properly, it's really good for racing for learning for learning how to pace.
[2:09:03] SPEAKER_04: It's just basically a really good threshold session.
[2:09:05] SPEAKER_04: So, those are my five that I think all of those things really help with your your five and your 10k.
[2:09:12] SPEAKER_04: And the one that I would then take out, so this is my sixth session, is a long run.
[2:09:16] SPEAKER_04: I just don't think you need it, especially if you are at this point of the year where you are focusing on five and 10k, a long run isn't needed, especially if you're doing an all-round swim bike run program.
[2:09:26] SPEAKER_04: You're getting so much aerobic stimulus from the other things that you're doing, you kind of don't need it.
[2:09:31] SPEAKER_04: And then when you're bringing in those longer sort of fartlic sessions, your run's probably gonna end up being like 15 to 18k anyway.
[2:09:39] SPEAKER_04: You kind of don't need more than that in one hit.
[2:09:41] SPEAKER_04: And the long run is kind of a hangover from runners.
[2:09:45] SPEAKER_04: Runners do that, they need that because they don't have those long bikes and swim sessions that we have.
[2:09:52] SPEAKER_04: If you're focusing on 5 to 10k, take out that long run, give yourself back some time to focus on other things, and then put that long run back in when you are more focused back on your half marathon or your full marathon.
[2:10:05] SPEAKER_00: I really loved your point about strides, Vicky.
[2:10:07] SPEAKER_00: And I always say to my athletes that neurons that uh fire together, wire together, I think neurological conditioning is the most forgotten about element when it comes to run training.
[2:10:17] SPEAKER_00: We get really obsessed about threshold runs, long runs, weekly mileage.
[2:10:22] SPEAKER_00: But then we've all had that feeling when you go out and try and run fast and you're like, what the fuck?
[2:10:26] SPEAKER_00: I feel like a baby giraffe, like my my body is just not working.
[2:10:30] SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I really like that point.
[2:10:33] SPEAKER_01: Nice and thorough, Vicky.
[2:10:34] SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
[2:10:34] SPEAKER_01: Even I learned a lot.
[2:10:36] SPEAKER_04: Wow, that's that's the ultimate compliment right there.
[2:10:41] SPEAKER_01: All right, I've got something fun to finish off the episode, if you guys will indulge me.
[2:10:46] SPEAKER_01: And um I'm just gonna fire through these.
[2:10:48] SPEAKER_01: I don't want um, you know, this podcast has already gone on over two hours, so I'm just gonna read this for a bit of fun.
[2:10:54] SPEAKER_01: I did some 2026 predictions.
[2:10:57] SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna fire off the five that I wrote down and you guys can comment um if you like.
[2:11:04] SPEAKER_01: Alright, first one.
[2:11:05] SPEAKER_01: Joe Skipper starts two or more podcasts that don't get past two episodes in 2026.
[2:11:12] SPEAKER_01: Prediction number two Lionel Sanders doesn't break the top 20 at Kona in 2026.
[2:11:19] SPEAKER_01: Whoa.
[2:11:19] SPEAKER_01: Ari Clare wins his first 70.3 in 2026.
[2:11:24] SPEAKER_01: The Kona winners are two people that has previously not won an Iron Man world.
[2:11:30] SPEAKER_04: That was the one I had.
[2:11:32] SPEAKER_04: I agree with you.
[2:11:34] SPEAKER_04: That was one of the only things I could think of was this.
[2:11:37] SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I'm with you.
[2:11:38] SPEAKER_04: Go for it, Appo.
[2:11:40] SPEAKER_01: And my last quick one is at the end of 2026, um, the T-100 is considered to have an excellent and successful year, and that sentiment is felt throughout the Trithlon community.
[2:11:51] SPEAKER_01: They're my quick 2026 predictions to wrap up the episode.
[2:11:57] SPEAKER_02: Alright, well, thanks for those shitty opinions about the year, Apple.
[2:12:01] SPEAKER_02: No, I think those are really good.
[2:12:02] SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to uh talk about next episode I'll do mine, and then next episode Vicky will do hers, and we can we can run through the predictions.
[2:12:10] SPEAKER_02: But that's the that's an edition of the Trathlon two hours.
[2:12:14] SPEAKER_02: Sam, Vicky, Jack is MIA now because he lives in the mountains, and apparently his internet has gone out.
[2:12:22] SPEAKER_02: So that's all we got here.
[2:12:24] SPEAKER_02: Uh any closing words?
[2:12:25] SPEAKER_02: Any words of motivation for the pretenders out there?
[2:12:27] SPEAKER_01: Nope, thanks for listening.
[2:12:28] SPEAKER_01: It's been a great episode.
[2:12:30] SPEAKER_01: Um, probably a bit longer.
[2:12:31] SPEAKER_01: We didn't get to the Spotify comments, but um Yeah, we'll throw some in next week uh for sure.
[2:12:37] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, thanks for listening.
[2:12:39] SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we will read out some Spotify comments next week.
[2:12:42] SPEAKER_01: So if you do want um, you know, our take on anything that you have.
[2:12:46] SPEAKER_01: And the spicier the comments, generally the spicy ones get read.
[2:12:49] SPEAKER_01: So if you put something boring in, it's probably not going to get read.
[2:12:52] SPEAKER_01: But if you uh you know if you poke the bear a little bit, we might uh we might be inclined to read it.
[2:12:57] SPEAKER_04: Cheers guys, see you next week.
[2:12:58] SPEAKER_01: Have you?
[2:12:59] SPEAKER_01: Love love.

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