# We NEED To Talk About Lionel Sanders

An episode of [The Triathlon Hour](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1595443343), 23 Jun 2025, 1 h 12 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2640942/episodes/19698053-we-need-to-talk-about-lionel-sanders.mp3

We start the show like always with our triathlon news headlines of the week. Then we dive into Lionel Sanders and the massive conversation he opened up last week. We share some embarrassing (but completely relatable) stories of our own. Then it’s time to close the show with the first ever funeral hosted live on a triathlon podcast. History is made on today’s episode. 00:00 - Triathlon News Headlines. 26:03 - Lionel Sanders, opening up & embarrassing/vulnerable stories. 1:05:20 - We host a funeral live on the podcast.

## Chapters

- 0:00 Triathlon News Headlines.
- 26:03 Lionel Sanders, opening up & embarrassing/vulnerable stories.
- 1:05:20 We host a funeral live on the podcast.

## Transcript

[0:00] SPEAKER_00: There's never been more triathlon stories.
[0:02] SPEAKER_00: The Triathlon Hour Podcast brings type A's together.
[0:05] SPEAKER_00: Triathlon nerds are watching news and fearless debate.
[0:09] SPEAKER_00: We're invested in you from Lanzarote to Noosa to Coney.
[0:13] SPEAKER_00: Andrew Messik is listening wherever you are.
[0:15] SPEAKER_00: On Instagram and podcasts, training stories you need, providing you the entertainment that celebrates Triathlon, the triathlon, triathlon opinions, and much more.
[0:27] SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to episode five of the newly refurbed triathlon hour.
[0:32] SPEAKER_00: I'm joined by always Ari Clare.
[0:34] SPEAKER_00: Hello, mate.
[0:35] SPEAKER_00: Greg Harper's here, back off a swim camp with the famous Sam Long.
[0:39] SPEAKER_00: Good to be here.
[0:40] SPEAKER_00: And friend of the show, he joins us again.
[0:42] SPEAKER_00: After he came on for his first episode, I was just inundated with messages asking to get him back.
[0:47] SPEAKER_00: Actually, mainly asking to replace uh Greg full time with him, but Apo joins us again, Sam Appleton.
[0:53] SPEAKER_05: Gotta give the people what they want, don't you, Jack?
[0:55] SPEAKER_00: Boys, you know what it's time for.
[1:00] SPEAKER_00: It's time for this week's edition of Triathlon News Headlines.
[1:05] SPEAKER_00: Discussion included.
[1:10] SPEAKER_00: My headline of the week: India Lee fucking dominates.
[1:14] SPEAKER_00: We've been talking all year about the big women who we think are potentially going to compete at the Iron Man World Championships in Kona.
[1:21] SPEAKER_00: Laura Phillip and Kat Matthews had that famous battle already at Hamburg.
[1:25] SPEAKER_00: We've got Taylor Nib, who everyone suspects if she gets it right, could be a threat.
[1:29] SPEAKER_00: Lucy Charles Barclay, she's won there before, as has Chelsea Cidaro.
[1:32] SPEAKER_00: But did India Lee on the weekend put herself up in lights and asked to be in the conversation with those women?
[1:40] SPEAKER_00: She won by over 20 minutes.
[1:42] SPEAKER_00: Uh Alz Vissa was second.
[1:44] SPEAKER_00: So just a crazy, crazy performance from India Lee.
[1:47] SPEAKER_00: She got away on the bike.
[1:48] SPEAKER_00: She just extended that gap up to about 17 minutes.
[1:51] SPEAKER_00: And yeah, by the time she'd finished her three-hour marathon, she was uh 20 minutes ahead of Alz Visser in second, and we know Al's Vissa is no slouch.
[1:58] SPEAKER_00: So amazing performance by India Lee.
[2:00] SPEAKER_00: Well done.
[2:01] SPEAKER_00: And I actually can't wait for India Lee to make her debut at Kona.
[2:05] SPEAKER_03: Jack, can you tell us a little bit about the course and your honest thoughts about where she fits into the conversation?
[2:11] SPEAKER_03: Because my initial thought is 20 minutes over Els Visser.
[2:14] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a contender.
[2:16] SPEAKER_03: But uh I wanna I want to dive deeper into what you think about the course and her performance and where she'll stack up about the names that you mentioned before.
[2:24] SPEAKER_00: I thought it was a good performance.
[2:27] SPEAKER_00: I don't think it was the level of Laura and Kat at Hamburg, but I think it was a very, very solid performance, maybe more on par with what Lucy Charles Barclay did at Lanza Rote.
[2:36] SPEAKER_00: I think the thing with India is how does she perform in the heat.
[2:39] SPEAKER_00: We saw what she did in Miami, which was very good, but then we've seen what she's done at Singapore, which has not been as good.
[2:45] SPEAKER_00: I think it just depends on the day we get at Kona.
[2:48] SPEAKER_00: I think if we get a nice day, like relatively cool conditions, that she can sit in that group and be a real driving force on the bike, with, say, like a Cat Matthews.
[2:57] SPEAKER_00: And if you're into T2 with the Cat Matthews group at Kona, you're going to put yourself in a great position to maybe not win the race, but at least compete for the podium.
[3:06] SPEAKER_00: I think she has that level of potential and can be that kind of athlete this year at Kona.
[3:10] SPEAKER_00: I worry if it's a really hot day though, particularly with the 180k ride and the marathon, if it's if it's classic Kona, brutally hot, might not suit India Lee.
[3:21] SPEAKER_00: But but I think that's the big watch and see because this performance over the weekend was really important.
[3:25] SPEAKER_00: Conditions weren't brutal though, so I think that is what played into India Lee's favour.
[3:29] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and she, what, 824?
[3:31] SPEAKER_05: Like it's pretty fast.
[3:33] SPEAKER_05: Um, I mean, I've done a couple of Iron Man slower than 824, I think.
[3:36] SPEAKER_05: So um, you know, it's definitely a bit of a um like a yeah, put put some people on notice, and I think it's a great um a great addition to this battle that's shaping up to be awesome in uh in Kona in a few months.
[3:49] SPEAKER_05: You know, a lot of people are kind of putting their hands up and saying, you know, I'm a contender, I'm a contender.
[3:54] SPEAKER_05: So um yeah, it'll be interesting.
[3:56] SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, a few more Iron Man's coming up ahead of Kona, and um, yeah, I'm sure a lot of people are eager to put some runs on the board ahead of Kona and um announce themselves as well.
[4:08] SPEAKER_05: So yeah, good on India for this.
[4:10] SPEAKER_00: Speaking of uh Iron Man World Championships, Apo, there's a big Iron Man coming up this weekend.
[4:15] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean, I guess my um headline, I wanted to talk about um people that are serious about the pro series.
[4:24] SPEAKER_05: Um why is so many people going to Frankfurt and when Cairns was last weekend, and I think if you were serious about the pro series, going to Cairns was um, you know, it would have been pretty easy pickings for a lot of guys, and instead you've got pretty much like a world championship field heading to Frankfurt, you know, you've got Magnus, you've got Patrick, you've got the three Norwegians, you've got Rudy von Berg, um, you know, everyone is doing Frankfurt, and I think, you know, if you were if you were serious about the pro series, I think, you know, it was a mistake for some of these guys to not go and do cans last weekend.
[4:59] SPEAKER_05: I know it's a bit of a longer flight, but a lot of US guys are still flying over for Frankfurt, and it's you know, it's still an international flight, it's not that much longer to go to Australia.
[5:09] SPEAKER_05: So yeah, I kind of thought that was a little bit interesting in terms of, yeah, everyone is just you know, wants to race the best guys, and I think I think there was a bit of a missed opportunity for some people to get some easy points on the board at Cairns last week.
[5:24] SPEAKER_02: We talked about it last week too, and I think you're so right about the missed opportunity.
[5:27] SPEAKER_02: It's like hindsight is everything, and you think, oh, it's a long flight, maybe I won't go.
[5:32] SPEAKER_02: And now they're looking back, you know, you go and you get 13th, you could have a decent day at this this race coming up, and you could that could have got you third at Cannes.
[5:41] SPEAKER_02: So definitely probably a missed opportunity for some.
[5:43] SPEAKER_02: And yeah, looking back, they kind of wish wish they had had done that.
[5:48] SPEAKER_02: I mean, you the start list on this race is it's so deep.
[5:52] SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's there's so many hitters, and you know it's all about time back, so yeah, missed opportunity for sure.
[5:58] SPEAKER_00: How much of it is just being scared of the travel versus Iron Man Cans not being as big a race, so people don't like start their year and go, oh yeah, I'm gonna lock in Iron Man Cans.
[6:08] SPEAKER_00: I I really am excited to go and do that race.
[6:10] SPEAKER_00: Because I know a lot of Australians would have that thought, but maybe a lot of Europeans and Americans just don't have that, oh, I'm gonna go to Cairns.
[6:16] SPEAKER_00: They they kind of seem to use it as a backup option, whereas the majority of big Europeans they probably start their year and go, okay, Iron Man Frankfurt, that's a big one over here.
[6:24] SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna lock that in at the start of the year.
[6:26] SPEAKER_03: I think it's got something to do with how new the Pro Series is.
[6:30] SPEAKER_03: And when you think about it, it is it is a game, uh, and it has it has rules and incentives that dictate how the game is played.
[6:39] SPEAKER_03: So there's there's no, for example, there's no outright rule that says you need three Ironmans uh to compete in the Pro Series.
[6:47] SPEAKER_03: But everyone who wants to compete in the Pro Series is doing three Ironmans because they're worth double.
[6:51] SPEAKER_03: There's just no way to compete if you're only doing two.
[6:56] SPEAKER_03: And that's something that people knew right when the what when the rules came out.
[7:00] SPEAKER_03: But now I think it's only year two.
[7:02] SPEAKER_03: Maybe over the next couple years we'll see people playing the game differently.
[7:07] SPEAKER_03: So for example, if Matthew Marquart, I don't know if it was his original plan to do Cairns anyway, um, but he he messed up at Texas, so he needed a second one.
[7:16] SPEAKER_03: But maybe he does really well in the pro series, or like Matt Hansen, for example, finishes really close to the podium, pretty close to the front, finishes really high up in the pro series on account of this race.
[7:28] SPEAKER_03: And next year, people who did Frankfurt instead are like, oh, maybe that then maybe that would have been a good bet, you know.
[7:34] SPEAKER_03: Like I only needed 10 minutes of total time to win, you know, X amount of thousands more dollars.
[7:40] SPEAKER_03: So I think it's just young.
[7:42] SPEAKER_03: And maybe if it is so much better, uh, you know, incentive-wise to go to Australia for a race, we'll probably see people start doing it over the next few years.
[7:51] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, we saw it with Jackie Herring as well.
[7:54] SPEAKER_00: You know, she just said on the podcast last week that uh she didn't Cairns was completely a backup option for her, and she only decided a couple of weeks beforehand that she was going to do it when she was on the side of the road over in Europe in Hamburg, and she's like, Oh, well, I guess I better go to Cairns.
[8:06] SPEAKER_00: And so she flies from Europe to America to Australia and then wins it quite comfortably.
[8:11] SPEAKER_00: So surely a lot of people looked at that, even people like yourself, Apo, look at that and go, Oh, should I add co should should I add Cairns next year?
[8:18] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think so.
[8:19] SPEAKER_05: I mean, that flat tire in Hamburg for Jackie could have been you know the best thing that happens to her this year in in terms of forcing her to go to Cairns and bank five thousand points.
[8:29] SPEAKER_05: Um because yeah, I mean, she obviously went to to um Hamburg, but then we saw how fast both um Laura and Kat went.
[8:39] SPEAKER_05: And you know, Jackie would have been up there for sure, but you know, I think bagging that win at Cairns, um, she's probably you know thanking that uh that slash tire in in uh in Hamburg.
[8:50] SPEAKER_00: So there's like multiple reasons you would do a race.
[8:53] SPEAKER_00: There's intrinsic reasons, but then there's also external factors like sponsorship, prize money, um, gaining Instagram followers, all that kind of thing.
[9:01] SPEAKER_00: How much does it matter which Iron Man you win?
[9:04] SPEAKER_00: Like if you win Iron Man Hamburg, is it any different to all of those things as winning Iron Man Cairns, or is there still just as much value to sponsors, fans, prize money by winning a smaller Iron Man like Cairns versus a Frankfurt or a Hamburg?
[9:18] SPEAKER_05: I think if you're German, winning in Germany is big.
[9:22] SPEAKER_05: Like obviously, winning in Hamburg for Laura Phillip is big.
[9:25] SPEAKER_05: I know Jan and Sebi and Patrick always loved racing and winning Frankfurt and Roth.
[9:30] SPEAKER_05: I think it kind of depends where you come from.
[9:33] SPEAKER_05: Um, and I think there is internal intrinsic motivation as well, but you know, from my personal experience, a lot of sponsors don't really care if you win, you know, Frankfurt, which is um European Championships, versus any other Iron Man.
[9:51] SPEAKER_05: They just kind of want to see their athlete holding up the banner, winning the race, you know.
[9:56] SPEAKER_05: Um that's coming from my experience.
[9:58] SPEAKER_05: I think people that are in the sport a little bit more and some of the brands that um you know are really invested in Trithlon understand the importance of winning something like a Pro Series Iron Man versus a non-pro series Iron Man.
[10:10] SPEAKER_05: But there's still a lot of sponsors out there that don't care, you know, if it's a B tier Iron Man or a Pro Series, in my experience.
[10:20] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and perception's kind of the reality with it, isn't it?
[10:22] SPEAKER_00: If you're perceived to be an Iron Man champion and perceived to be someone who wins races, if whether it's Cairns, like whether it's Matt Marquart winning Cannes or Matt Marquart winning Chattanooga or Matt Marquart winning, say, Frankfurt this weekend, I don't think it matters to a lot of people.
[10:38] SPEAKER_00: It matters to the diehards.
[10:40] SPEAKER_00: The diehards go, well, obviously beating Christian and Patrick and Gustav and Rudy at Frankfurt is a much bigger deal.
[10:45] SPEAKER_00: But to keto and IQ who want to give you$10,000 for the year or something like that, they just go, oh, this guy's an Iron Man champion.
[10:52] SPEAKER_00: We can put him in in our ads as an Iron Man champion.
[10:54] SPEAKER_00: And on his Instagram bio, he's got Iron Man Champions.
[10:56] SPEAKER_00: So it really doesn't matter that much to us.
[10:59] SPEAKER_03: That's such a good point.
[11:00] SPEAKER_03: People get introduced as X-Time Iron Man Champion, and there's no asterisk of, you know, who who else was there.
[11:07] SPEAKER_02: Or if it's a European championship or whatnot.
[11:09] SPEAKER_02: And like you, yeah, it's like 98% of the people don't know.
[11:12] SPEAKER_02: I mean, even if you're an age grouper and you win your race with no pros, it's like, oh, they're a 70.3 champion.
[11:19] SPEAKER_02: That means the same to a lot of people then as a pro winning the race, right?
[11:22] SPEAKER_02: I mean, most people really don't know.
[11:23] SPEAKER_02: It's it's kind of a niche sport, so it's an interesting debate to be had for sure.
[11:28] SPEAKER_00: And then this weekend at Frankfurt, it's obviously a massive race.
[11:31] SPEAKER_00: Like I just said, some of those names.
[11:32] SPEAKER_00: We've got Christian Blumenfeld there, Patrick Lang, the defending Iron Man World Champions there, Magnus Ditliff, who really doesn't finish off podiums at Iron Man races, he's there, Rudy Von Berg, he's the same, he's there.
[11:43] SPEAKER_00: Gustav Eden's there, who else there?
[11:45] SPEAKER_00: Greg Barnaby, Cam Werve, Kasper Stoyners, Christian Hoganhag, Robert Callan, uh Ben Canute, uh Clement Mignon.
[11:54] SPEAKER_05: Christian Hoganhag.
[11:55] SPEAKER_00: It's just a massive field.
[11:57] SPEAKER_00: What do we make of this race, boys?
[11:58] SPEAKER_05: Blue wins easy.
[12:00] SPEAKER_05: Nah.
[12:01] SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
[12:02] SPEAKER_05: No.
[12:03] SPEAKER_05: I think Blue Blue rides with Magnus when he comes through.
[12:07] SPEAKER_05: Magnus doesn't drop Christian.
[12:08] SPEAKER_05: Christian gets off, runs 228, and Lang runs into second.
[12:14] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good thought.
[12:15] SPEAKER_02: I feel like I gotta put Rudy up there for sure.
[12:18] SPEAKER_02: And my boy Jonas Schoenberg, don't sleep on him.
[12:20] SPEAKER_02: He's going off the front, and he's gonna hold on for that podium.
[12:24] SPEAKER_02: That's my prediction.
[12:25] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, a lot of interesting dynamics here, but Christian, I think thus far has proven that he he is he is the guy to beat.
[12:32] SPEAKER_03: I don't see him losing this race.
[12:34] SPEAKER_00: Is there any chance that Magnus does what he did to Christian at Kona and Christian tries to go with Magnus and completely blows himself up and then and then just runs a slow marathon like he did at Kona?
[12:44] SPEAKER_03: No, I think the conditions are gonna be too fair.
[12:46] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[12:47] SPEAKER_05: I think he rides with Magnus this time, and because it's a cooler race, he keeps all his nutrition down and he gets off.
[12:54] SPEAKER_05: And I mean, I think both Christian and Patrick are really upset that someone broke the 230 barrier before them, so they're gonna want to come out and show that they've got the uh the stuff to do to uh sub 230 as well.
[13:08] SPEAKER_02: Now is it a flat course?
[13:10] SPEAKER_02: This is like this is a 230 sub type of course?
[13:13] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Frankfurt's reasonably fast.
[13:14] SPEAKER_00: You can de if if conditions are good, you can definitely have a very, very fast day on that Frankfurt course, uh bike and run, I think.
[13:21] SPEAKER_00: I think like guys like Patrick Lang and Christian Blumenfeld could definitely go sub 230 there.
[13:26] SPEAKER_00: Because I I still think there's like that the yeah, 230's been broken, but I still think there's an asterisk where people want to see 230 broken by someone who's competitive in the race and in a big race.
[13:36] SPEAKER_00: So like a Christian winning this race and going sub 230, I think that would still have a big impact.
[13:42] SPEAKER_00: It's not like it's done and it doesn't matter anymore.
[13:44] SPEAKER_05: Where was it Frankfurt last year when Christian ran low like 232?
[13:48] SPEAKER_03: It was 232.
[13:50] SPEAKER_03: Was that Frankfurt?
[13:50] SPEAKER_05: Hamburg.
[13:51] SPEAKER_03: Last year it would have been Hamburg and the and the women were at the game last year.
[13:54] SPEAKER_05: Okay.
[13:55] SPEAKER_05: Um yeah, I'm not too sure what the course is like, but um, I mean I've seen guys go pretty fast on that course in previous years, so it wouldn't surprise me um to see a sub 230.
[14:06] SPEAKER_00: And no chance of an upset victory here.
[14:08] SPEAKER_00: Like, are we just thinking that if Christian doesn't win, Magnus wins, or if Magnus doesn't win, Patrick Lang wings?
[14:13] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's gonna be a big name.
[14:14] SPEAKER_03: I I would put money on it.
[14:15] SPEAKER_03: Jonathan Jonas Schaumburg, no chance, Greg.
[14:18] SPEAKER_02: I think we could see some non-big names on the podium.
[14:20] SPEAKER_02: I you know, I think a backgard could slip onto the podium, or you know, he he was sneakily fourth in Texas, right?
[14:27] SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, he's on good form.
[14:28] SPEAKER_02: I mean, the predictor of good races is prior good races, too.
[14:32] SPEAKER_02: So he's definitely on on good form.
[14:35] SPEAKER_02: And but Schaumburg will win, obviously.
[14:37] SPEAKER_02: I mean, I already know, but yeah.
[14:38] SPEAKER_03: And Christian's not a front pack swimmer, so he'll be out of it.
[14:41] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he'll be no chance he makes the front.
[14:44] SPEAKER_05: There's too many good guys for there to be an upset, you know.
[14:47] SPEAKER_05: There's that's four or five or five guys that can win it, and one of them is gonna win it.
[14:51] SPEAKER_05: Like it's not gonna be they're not all gonna have bad days, and someone comes through that surprises us, I don't think.
[14:57] SPEAKER_00: I do think there could be some carnage though, just by because there's so many strong cyclists like Christian Blumenfeld, Magnus Ditlev, Rudy Von Berg, Jonas Schomberg, Hoganhag, Greg Barn, Daniel Backegaard, Christian Hoganhag, Robert Callan, Rasmus Svenningsen.
[15:13] SPEAKER_00: Like, that's ten guys who are really close to being in the top ten best cyclists in long course triform.
[15:19] SPEAKER_00: Like, that's an insane bike pack.
[15:21] SPEAKER_00: If and if that gets rolling and Magnus is driving it, and Robert Callan's driving it, and Christian Hoganhag's driving it, there has to be some chaos, right?
[15:30] SPEAKER_03: I love this thing that Greg says.
[15:32] SPEAKER_03: There's there's someone who is the last guy to bridge up.
[15:36] SPEAKER_03: So my guess is there's going to be a large sort of front swim pack.
[15:39] SPEAKER_03: Some guys will get dropped from it, you know, assuming the pace is somewhat hot.
[15:42] SPEAKER_03: And then out of those ten guys, I don't think uh I think because of the amount of bike power there that it inevitably will join the front one by one, there's going to be sort of a last guy who makes it, and like a lot of those guys that you mentioned will kind of straggle behind.
[16:00] SPEAKER_02: It's only it's like the Magnus train.
[16:02] SPEAKER_02: Like, if if you come out behind Magnus, you can't get to a front of a race.
[16:05] SPEAKER_02: Like it's just there's no chance.
[16:08] SPEAKER_02: Because he'll drive the front once he gets there.
[16:10] SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
[16:11] SPEAKER_00: Will Patrick Lang be in that front group, or will he just be behind that and then bleed time all day?
[16:16] SPEAKER_03: Front group, I bet.
[16:17] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so if he comes off front group and he's into T2 with Christian, you're not backing like none of you are backing him head to head in a marathon versus Christian on the weekend?
[16:25] SPEAKER_03: Oh no, I didn't say that the front group necessarily stays together.
[16:28] SPEAKER_03: I think like Magnus could go off the front, Christian could go off the front.
[16:31] SPEAKER_03: I just don't think that those strong cyclists behind will join if they don't get there sort of before Magnus or before maybe like a Robert Callen, that sort of thing.
[16:41] SPEAKER_03: I would I would back Patrick Lang.
[16:43] SPEAKER_02: I would back Christian.
[16:44] SPEAKER_02: I would back Christian.
[16:45] SPEAKER_02: I mean, he did 232 like three weeks after the Olympics last year.
[16:49] SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
[16:50] SPEAKER_02: I I bet he backs himself.
[16:51] SPEAKER_02: He's also the Olympic champ.
[16:53] SPEAKER_02: Like he wants, yeah.
[16:54] SPEAKER_02: I I think I have to back Christian on it.
[16:56] SPEAKER_02: But I mean it would be a close, close battle.
[16:59] SPEAKER_00: Should we all pick a winner?
[17:00] SPEAKER_02: I already did.
[17:01] SPEAKER_02: Christian Blumenfeld.
[17:02] SPEAKER_02: You already know mine.
[17:03] SPEAKER_02: Schomberg.
[17:04] SPEAKER_00: Nappa.
[17:05] SPEAKER_02: I think Christian will win it.
[17:06] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[17:07] SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess I'll go Magnus then.
[17:09] SPEAKER_00: Um, Greg, you've had a big week in the triathon space.
[17:12] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, my headline is uh Sam Long will be the first out of the water at the T100 French Riviera race.
[17:22] SPEAKER_02: You heard it here first.
[17:25] SPEAKER_04: Is that okay?
[17:26] SPEAKER_04: Ha ha.
[17:31] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was a good one, huh?
[17:32] SPEAKER_02: Huh, guys?
[17:33] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, all right.
[17:33] SPEAKER_02: So a little context.
[17:35] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I spent some time with Sam this last week, uh staying in his house and working to swim with him.
[17:40] SPEAKER_02: And I thought it went really well.
[17:42] SPEAKER_02: And I just was I just love Sam Long, man.
[17:45] SPEAKER_02: Like he was he was an enemy of the show.
[17:47] SPEAKER_02: Those he's he's now my best friend of the show.
[17:50] SPEAKER_02: He's no more longer an enemy of the show.
[17:52] SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I was just impressed with how he carries himself and you know everything he does in triathlon and outside.
[17:59] SPEAKER_02: And uh, we had a really fun time, and he was super hospitable.
[18:02] SPEAKER_02: So we had a good time kind of working on his body position, his head position, his breath, just everything that make up good stroke mechanics and swimming.
[18:11] SPEAKER_02: And I think uh I think we got him a little more dialed.
[18:13] SPEAKER_02: So I'm hoping he can close that gap in the swim and become that U.S.
[18:18] SPEAKER_02: Iron Man world champion that we're all have been desperately wanting here in in the States.
[18:23] SPEAKER_00: Okay, so some questions out of this week, Greg.
[18:26] SPEAKER_00: What are like the three big weaknesses in Sam Long's stroke that you think stop him from being a fast swimmer?
[18:33] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would say the main one is kind of his like late breath, which creates like this hitch in his stroke.
[18:39] SPEAKER_02: So, and especially when you get isolated and you fatigue, it's like it becomes more pronounced.
[18:45] SPEAKER_02: So all of a sudden his stroke rate slows even more, and his breath timing is late.
[18:49] SPEAKER_02: And his head was kind of buried, so he's really reaching for the breath.
[18:53] SPEAKER_02: It's not just side to side, because if it's your head's so low, you have to turn your head too far, and then you over-rotate.
[18:59] SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, it's like it's a little bit of that balance, a little bit of over-rotation with that breath timing and just stroke rate.
[19:07] SPEAKER_02: I mean, those are kind of the three things we really honed in.
[19:09] SPEAKER_02: His body position is actually decent for someone who's long legs and incredibly muscular, and muscular long legs legs sink.
[19:18] SPEAKER_02: Like Sam Long is not going to be an Olympic swimmer just because his his body composition doesn't really call for it, and he lacks mobility in his shoulders for sure.
[19:27] SPEAKER_02: I mean, he's a great time trialist.
[19:29] SPEAKER_02: So I think working on like the head position and the mobility also will come into play, but you know, his catch is actually pretty decent too.
[19:38] SPEAKER_02: So it was just a few little things, and I I think it went well.
[19:43] SPEAKER_02: We made we made progress pretty much every session until towards the end, it was like the ninth session in five days.
[19:49] SPEAKER_02: We were like both really mentally like fatigued.
[19:52] SPEAKER_02: Um, he was mentally fatigued, and I was mentally fatigued just from like we were just so locked in, and it was really fun watching him like tackle a problem, like someone at that level, and like just really dedicate himself to it.
[20:04] SPEAKER_02: It was yeah, it was kind of inspired me a bit.
[20:07] SPEAKER_02: So thanks, Sam.
[20:08] SPEAKER_03: Well, Greg he came out uh four, it was about four and a half minutes down out of the water in a uh very chops choppy wetsuit, uh ocean swim in Vancouver.
[20:21] SPEAKER_03: And the next race is uh extremely, extremely salty.
[20:25] SPEAKER_03: Um but it'll be non-wetsuit in the Mediterranean.
[20:28] SPEAKER_03: It's hard, but can you maybe quantify or give us, you know, as fans, some expectation?
[20:37] SPEAKER_03: Is it gonna be the same and it's uh you know a months to years long process, or do you think that he can immediately kind of go to work on these changes and and what will the difference be?
[20:47] SPEAKER_02: I think immediate, like he definitely made immediate changes.
[20:52] SPEAKER_02: Like his everything had clicked a little bit better.
[20:55] SPEAKER_02: What I'm hoping to see out of Sam is he like he gets on a I mean, well, Fred wasn't having a great swim.
[21:01] SPEAKER_02: He gets on the guy's feet who come maybe a Nico man or someone like that.
[21:05] SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm hoping he can use those guys to piggyback himself to like three minutes behind, right?
[21:10] SPEAKER_02: Like I th I still think he could come out solo closer, you know, say four or three and a half minutes back, but I'm hoping he can get out faster, work on his awareness and his siding, and get in the group and stay there.
[21:22] SPEAKER_02: You know, in this last race, it's like I want to see him coming out with Jackson Laundry and a couple of those guys who come out, you know, maybe a minute and a half.
[21:28] SPEAKER_02: So it depends who's there.
[21:29] SPEAKER_02: Like if it's 19 front pack guys who, you know, like Sam Appleton, the best swimmer in triathlon level, then maybe he doesn't he he bleeds the same amount of time, but I'm hoping he can, you know, use that awareness and you know, kind of piggyback off other guys to get himself closer to the front.
[21:48] SPEAKER_05: I've got a question, Greg.
[21:50] SPEAKER_05: Um you know, fitness with swimming only gets you so far, right?
[21:55] SPEAKER_05: Um, as triathletes, we're all really fit, and with people that I've helped in the past, it's like Fitness gets you to a certain point with swimming, but then so much about it is technique, feel for the water, body position.
[22:08] SPEAKER_05: If people listening to this show now say are adult onset swimmers, do you have, you know, two or three kind of key body position or you know, key things that they should be looking out for when they're swimming?
[22:23] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I've been working with Ari a little bit on his floating game.
[22:27] SPEAKER_02: Um It's impossible.
[22:29] SPEAKER_02: Like just even practicing some floating, like if you can float easy, you can use your energy to move forward.
[22:34] SPEAKER_02: So, you know, floating in a ball or kind of some just easy floating stuff and feeling like the relaxation, I think can go a really long way.
[22:42] SPEAKER_02: I mean, we all did it as kids, but traathlets come into it late and they're like, oh, I need to chase fitness.
[22:47] SPEAKER_02: I think short intervals too.
[22:49] SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's something we're gonna do doing with Sam.
[22:51] SPEAKER_02: Like, we did 25s and 50s, mostly 25s for five straight days.
[22:57] SPEAKER_02: And even at the end, we started doing a 75.
[22:59] SPEAKER_02: I was like, you ain't ready.
[23:00] SPEAKER_02: You ain't ready for that.
[23:02] SPEAKER_02: So I think you know, doing shorter intervals where you get that quick reset of a stroke to like keep your mechanics together and and technique is is super big.
[23:10] SPEAKER_02: And yeah, just really thinking about like head, like body position kick or thinking about your head position because the head dictates so much, you know.
[23:18] SPEAKER_02: I see people peep when people try to go for it in the swim, their head moves or goes up and down.
[23:23] SPEAKER_02: And if your head is extra side to side or up and down, it just creates problems down the chain.
[23:29] SPEAKER_02: So I think those are some some big stuff.
[23:31] SPEAKER_02: And you know, LT1 and LT2 aren't um those aren't real swim.
[23:37] SPEAKER_02: Like that's not real.
[23:38] SPEAKER_02: Like if they just be careful, like, oh, I'm doing 10100s LT2, then 400-400s LT1.
[23:44] SPEAKER_02: It's like, are you an elite swimmer?
[23:46] SPEAKER_02: Because you can do that.
[23:47] SPEAKER_02: But if you're not, that's not like a the right way to approach development uh in the pool.
[23:52] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but because people think of swimming as the same as riding and running, but it's really different both physiologically and from a skill-based perspective.
[23:59] SPEAKER_00: Like if you're doing all your swimming at LT1, that's so slow for most people, just because percentage of fast switch muscle fibers in your upper body so much higher, so you produce so much more lactate or more waste product just from swimming easy, let alone swimming hard.
[24:12] SPEAKER_00: So I agree with you there, Greg.
[24:14] SPEAKER_00: Um just a question on the floating thing.
[24:17] SPEAKER_00: When you recommend floating to your athletes, and that being a very important skill, what do you mean?
[24:23] SPEAKER_00: Like you you mentioned the ball floating, but uh like floating on your stomach, floating on your back, how should be how should you be going about it?
[24:29] SPEAKER_00: How should you be structuring it into your training?
[24:32] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, you um I'll structure it like so ball float, like you literally would hug your legs, right?
[24:38] SPEAKER_02: You're floating in a ball.
[24:39] SPEAKER_02: That's kind of like beginner, right?
[24:41] SPEAKER_02: Like if you grab your legs and you try to float in a ball and you sink, that should be your number one priority.
[24:47] SPEAKER_02: Because you have to be able to hold yourself up with your lungs, or else it's not going to be successful.
[24:51] SPEAKER_02: So the thing about it is we don't have to just do technique or just do skills.
[24:55] SPEAKER_02: We can say, okay, ball float for 15 seconds into a 50 free times 10.
[24:59] SPEAKER_02: So we do ball float and then you take that lift into the swim.
[25:03] SPEAKER_02: I mean, and when uh another one I'll do is like an X float or a ball float to X float.
[25:07] SPEAKER_02: So you start on a ball, then you move to an X.
[25:09] SPEAKER_02: And an X is like an intermediate position, and then an I, like the letter I would be an advanced position.
[25:15] SPEAKER_02: Um, so in an X position, you have more stability, so it's gonna be a little bit easier, but is still very challenging, I would say, to about 99% of tri athletes and a lot of professional triathles.
[25:26] SPEAKER_02: Um, I know for myself I could do that all day, and I think that's what you know helps me be a good swimmer.
[25:33] SPEAKER_02: I can use my energy to move forward.
[25:34] SPEAKER_02: So you can combine it.
[25:35] SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna do a little bit of floating and I'm gonna swim and try to feel that lift.
[25:39] SPEAKER_02: And the object behind floating is our lungs are what's gonna keep us afloat in the water.
[25:45] SPEAKER_02: And when they're full of air, you you know use that chest pressure to push on the water, which holds holds your legs up a bit better.
[25:52] SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of what the best swimmers in the world uh do.
[25:55] SPEAKER_02: You know, their their body position, they're very high out of the water.
[25:58] SPEAKER_02: The higher you are in the water, the faster you go because air is way less dense than water.
[26:03] SPEAKER_03: I have a feeling that Lionel Sanders is gonna listen to this and he's gonna see the YouTube that Sam Long put out of you guys working together.
[26:12] SPEAKER_03: And uh he's gonna hit you up next as soon as he uh gets over his current crux, which leads to my headline Lionel Sanders, confirmed shower, not grower.
[26:24] SPEAKER_03: This was all over the triathlon world this week.
[26:28] SPEAKER_03: It's all everyone was talking about, and it spawned a whole host of memes.
[26:33] SPEAKER_03: And the serious side of it is Lionel uploaded a video, he's injured, he's out of Lake Placid, uh, which is sad.
[26:41] SPEAKER_03: But the uh I guess the whole point of the video is he well, I guess he he really self-diagnosed, or he didn't make it clear um, you know, who he went to or what other signs that were uh to get diagnosed with uh reds.
[26:56] SPEAKER_03: So relative energy deficiency in sport.
[26:59] SPEAKER_03: And he's dealing with what uh appears to I I mean, we'll talk about this later.
[27:05] SPEAKER_03: He has he is diagnosed himself with a stress fracture or is treating his current glute injury as a stress fracture.
[27:11] SPEAKER_03: And the other symptoms are how often he has gotten sick, which is 10 times in the last 15 months, which is a crazy amount of time to get sick.
[27:19] SPEAKER_03: And the the banger of it all is that Lionel struggles to get hard.
[27:24] SPEAKER_03: Uh he struggles, he has uh lack of nighttime erections.
[27:29] SPEAKER_03: Uh and I mean he said it, he said it flat out.
[27:33] SPEAKER_03: He's uh got a form of erectile dysfunction.
[27:36] SPEAKER_03: And it's a really I mean you can see me almost stumbling because it's kudos to Lionel for like talking about an insanely uncomfortable topic that he cannot be the only one struggling with.
[27:48] SPEAKER_03: But that was like a bombshell of a video to come out and say that on YouTube.
[27:53] SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't know if I have the balls to do that.
[27:56] SPEAKER_00: I think that's the the important part of it, Ari, is that he has started a conversation and we've been talking about it behind the scenes.
[28:03] SPEAKER_00: Like, we want to do a segment now where we just do the same thing, open up a little bit, share some stories about ourselves.
[28:09] SPEAKER_00: Greg's already scared or awkward, and and that that but that's right.
[28:13] SPEAKER_00: It's like Greg's like, Oh, I don't want to do that, man, and you're and you're like, Oh, I don't like that.
[28:17] SPEAKER_00: And I think that is a real problem that that most, I won't I won't say all, but most blokes that I know have.
[28:24] SPEAKER_00: And I I feel like in society, we've gone through a real decade or so of women empowerment, and it's a great thing because the amount of Instagram reels I see, the amount of female podcasts I see that are just women talking about their sex lives, you know, their like any medical or health issues that they have, particularly revolving around um sexual health issues, I see them all the time.
[28:49] SPEAKER_00: Whereas I don't really see them with guys, and I think if like four guys got together and did like a sexual health podcast or a podcast where they just tell sex stories, I think other guys would largely hate it and take the piss out of them.
[29:02] SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know if it's just a difference between men and women, but I do think women are killing men in this area at the moment and completely dominating them.
[29:12] SPEAKER_00: And I think Lionel kind of confronted us with that.
[29:15] SPEAKER_00: Like talking about erectile dysfunction shouldn't be that uncommon.
[29:19] SPEAKER_00: You know, most men suffer from erectile dysfunction at some point in their life, the m the majority of men.
[29:24] SPEAKER_00: And yet I don't remember the last time I had a conversation with any of my mates in real life about erectile dysfunction.
[29:31] SPEAKER_00: Like I don't have a single mate who's come come to me in the last year and said, you know what, I'm struggling with erectile dysfunction.
[29:37] SPEAKER_00: But I a hundred percent have at least one mate who has been struggling with it.
[29:40] SPEAKER_00: So I think we've got to get better at about talking about these things, don't you think?
[29:45] SPEAKER_03: Wait, how do you know you have a mate who struggles with erectile dysfunction if none of them have sold your mate?
[29:50] SPEAKER_03: It's Lionel, dude.
[29:51] SPEAKER_02: Lionel is his mate that he's talking about right now.
[29:53] SPEAKER_00: Well, just statistically speaking, right?
[29:55] SPEAKER_00: If if I have if I know a hundred a hundred guys and the majority of guys struggle from a r with erectile dysfunction at some point in their life, it's just highly likely I do, right?
[30:05] SPEAKER_00: Like one of you three probably has.
[30:07] SPEAKER_05: Are you just saying you can have a hundred mates?
[30:09] SPEAKER_05: Did you just say you have a hundred friends?
[30:11] SPEAKER_05: That's a humble problem.
[30:12] SPEAKER_00: I said I knew a hundred guys.
[30:14] SPEAKER_00: About three of them are friends, and and I'm talking to them all here.
[30:17] SPEAKER_03: Well, I just pulled up this statistic here.
[30:20] SPEAKER_03: It says uh one in four men definitely have erectile dysfunction, and it's not me, so Greg?
[30:29] SPEAKER_02: It's not it's not a perfectly clean track record, if I have to admit.
[30:34] SPEAKER_02: Depends how many bees you've had.
[30:35] SPEAKER_03: Do you guys have thoughts on this?
[30:36] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's it's it's alcohol-induced, obviously.
[30:40] SPEAKER_03: Any other thoughts on this on this uh Lionel video?
[30:43] SPEAKER_02: Well, I got a I got a question, because you've trained with him, so you're it's a confirmed shower, um, not a grower.
[30:49] SPEAKER_02: You've trained with him.
[30:50] SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
[30:51] SPEAKER_02: Massive hog.
[30:53] unknown: Okay.
[30:55] SPEAKER_05: Um I think I mean I just think that's why everyone loves Lionel, because he just like he doesn't give like he doesn't care what anyone thinks.
[31:04] SPEAKER_05: He's just no filter, says it how it is.
[31:07] SPEAKER_05: Um you know, he's so charismatic almost in the way he approaches all these topics and nothing is off the table.
[31:16] SPEAKER_05: And I think you know, his life is an open book, and that's why his YouTube is so successful because it's yeah, it's just raw, unfiltered stuff.
[31:26] SPEAKER_05: And yeah, I don't think I, you know, if I was in Lionel's position, I definitely don't think that I would be disclosing that information.
[31:33] SPEAKER_05: Um not saying that, you know, either way is right or wrong, it's just comes down to personality.
[31:38] SPEAKER_05: But I think, you know, I think it is good that someone's coming out and talking about it.
[31:42] SPEAKER_05: Um and yeah, I think, you know, if anything, it has spawned some legendary memes, which I have definitely been chuckling at.
[31:50] SPEAKER_03: Okay, but boners aside, he well another thing that I feel like gets lost is he's treating this injury as a stress fracture with two sets of imaging that don't show a fracture line.
[32:02] SPEAKER_03: You know, like what do we uh This is what I wanted to speak about, Ari.
[32:06] SPEAKER_00: I've had so many like DMs from physios in the trith on our Instagram, um, some really reputable physios as well, who just have said, look, this is this is actually not that healthy a thing to be doing self-diagnosis like this.
[32:19] SPEAKER_00: You've got multiple sets of imaging that show you don't have bone stress injury and yet you're treating it like bone stress injury.
[32:25] SPEAKER_00: Um, I think a common theme that they were saying is Lionel just needs a better team around him.
[32:31] SPEAKER_00: He needs people he trusts in his corner who he can go to and can actually give him advice.
[32:36] SPEAKER_00: And I do think that's something that from the outside looking in, he struggled with.
[32:40] SPEAKER_00: Like he struggled to give up control in in his program quite a lot.
[32:44] SPEAKER_00: Like he gets a coach in for a little bit of time, like Jan Fredina or David Tilby Davis.
[32:48] SPEAKER_00: Um, I know he was considering Bjorn Geisman and and then ultimately didn't.
[32:52] SPEAKER_00: I think more than anything, I don't think it's necessarily that Lionel needs a coach, but I really wish Lionel just had two or three experts in different areas around him that he just trusted wholeheartedly.
[33:03] SPEAKER_00: Because if you get those sets of images, as a like Lionel's one of the best triflets in the world.
[33:08] SPEAKER_00: Surely he should have a physio that he knows that he can send them to and discuss it with, and that physio just says, look, this is what we're dealing with, this is what you have to do, so that he's not forced to be in a position where he's on a YouTube video thinking saying, like, well, these two sets of scans aren't showing bone stress injury, but I'm going to treat it like it is bone stress injury anyway, because I suspect I have a bone stress injury.
[33:30] SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think the the big takeaway from me is just something that I reckon I've seen for over a decade with Lionel that I just think he needs a team around him.
[33:39] SPEAKER_02: Do you think it's too late almost?
[33:41] SPEAKER_02: I mean, like you said, it's he is one of the most he's probably the biggest figure in the sport, you know.
[33:46] SPEAKER_02: I mean, Lucy and Jan and stuff, but it's almost he's so big, you can't let people in, right?
[33:52] SPEAKER_02: I mean, you probably have your guard up a little bit more, like how who you keep close.
[33:56] SPEAKER_02: And now he's 37 and he really trusts his own intuition.
[33:59] SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, do you think it's kind of too late that he would never really open up to someone and trust someone to let someone like that in in his last few years?
[34:08] SPEAKER_00: It's personality based, right?
[34:09] SPEAKER_00: And Lionel's shown a history of struggling with letting people in and struggling, giving up control.
[34:14] SPEAKER_00: And I think the kind of personality that can get as good at a hard sport like Trithlon as Lionel is probably prone to that.
[34:21] SPEAKER_00: So do I think he could do that?
[34:24] SPEAKER_00: I think he will struggle with it.
[34:25] SPEAKER_00: But do I think he should do that for sure?
[34:28] SPEAKER_00: I think that the biggest like thing Lionel could do for this last two, three, four years of his of his career where he can be seriously competitive in the in the biggest races in the world, is just focus on getting a group around him, get a physio, maybe get a swim coach.
[34:42] SPEAKER_00: Like I I think I think he has that swim coach.
[34:44] SPEAKER_00: I don't know how much he trusts him.
[34:46] SPEAKER_00: So maybe he needs someone more like a Greg Harper style into his team, and he can just put full trust into it.
[34:54] SPEAKER_00: Uh I wouldn't trust him.
[34:56] SPEAKER_00: But I I do think like he should just go, okay, I've got I'm getting sick uh quite a bit.
[35:00] SPEAKER_00: Let me go and get a doctor that I really respect, like do a lot of research on it, and have a doctor on speed dial because I think the world's best need that.
[35:08] SPEAKER_00: And if he's getting sick, you know, upwards of 10 times in the past calendar year, that's too much.
[35:12] SPEAKER_00: You can't be at your best side.
[35:14] SPEAKER_00: That's so I I really think a doctor, uh like a nutritionist, because I felt like he struggled with his nutrition.
[35:19] SPEAKER_00: Like we we saw his video at the start of the year where he talked about making nutritional changes.
[35:23] SPEAKER_00: Now he thinks he might be suffering from red S, which all of his symptoms it does seem like he probably is.
[35:29] SPEAKER_00: And a a really like highly qualified dietitian in his life that could help him with that, I think could be a huge benefit.
[35:35] SPEAKER_00: A physio, so that this this situation he's in right now doesn't you know happen again.
[35:40] SPEAKER_00: I think I think that could benefit him, whether he whether he will do it, I don't know.
[35:44] SPEAKER_00: What do you think, Apo?
[35:45] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean Lionel has shown, like he has tried to have people direct him, and I think he's just one of those athletes that likes to have control, he doesn't like to surrender control to other people.
[35:59] SPEAKER_05: And I think it's just a personality thing.
[36:01] SPEAKER_05: Like for me personally, look like if a coach tells me to have a day off training, then I've got no problem having a day off training.
[36:08] SPEAKER_05: Where you know, if I was to make that call myself, I would find that a little bit more challenging.
[36:13] SPEAKER_05: Um, and I think Lionel has, you know, he's tried, and we've seen it um because he is such an open book, we have seen him reach out to people.
[36:21] SPEAKER_05: You know, Jan was helping him for a little while, like you said, Jack, and he's had a handful of coaches and other people in his corner, but it just seems like nothing sticks.
[36:32] SPEAKER_05: Um, so yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if having a better team around him is the answer.
[36:38] SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, sometimes I think Lionel is his own worst enemy.
[36:42] SPEAKER_05: Um, and yeah, I mean sometimes you just have to live with those consequences, I guess.
[36:48] SPEAKER_00: Is it just part of being who Lionel is?
[36:50] SPEAKER_00: Like, do you just if you're Lionel, right, or if if you're if you're already one of the select few people in Lionel's team right now and you're looking at this this problem that he's having, do you go, okay, well, I guess this just is Lionel?
[37:02] SPEAKER_00: Like, he's clearly become one of the best in the world.
[37:05] SPEAKER_00: He's come second at two Iron Man World Championships.
[37:08] SPEAKER_00: He's look at what he's done this year.
[37:09] SPEAKER_00: That performance at St.
[37:10] SPEAKER_00: George this year was insane.
[37:11] SPEAKER_00: One of the best performances of the year for sure.
[37:14] SPEAKER_00: Like, is this just the highs and lows that comes with being the personality type that that Lionel is, and you just accept that and and you take the good with the bad?
[37:22] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think so.
[37:23] SPEAKER_05: I mean, yeah, he's on some great form.
[37:26] SPEAKER_05: And what I find interesting is that, you know, earlier this year there was the whole debate of um high volume versus low volume, and Lionel was definitely in that camp of lower volume.
[37:37] SPEAKER_05: I think he published that you know his average training was like 17 hours a week leading into was it Oceanside or St.
[37:43] SPEAKER_05: George, one of the big races that he won.
[37:45] SPEAKER_05: So it's interesting, you know, being a low volume guy and then still having, you know, bone stress injuries and reds, which typically come from overtraining, doing too much, and your body's not adapting.
[38:00] SPEAKER_05: Um so yeah, it's interesting, and obviously we don't know everything going on behind the scenes.
[38:05] SPEAKER_05: I don't have you know, I've ha I've never looked at Lionel's training peaks or anything, so I don't know how much he's actually doing, but it is interesting.
[38:13] SPEAKER_05: I bet it would be crazy to look to his training peaks.
[38:16] SPEAKER_05: Oh, I would love, you know, I but can you imagine just having access to Lionel's training peaks?
[38:23] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, just going to the bike workouts like my God.
[38:26] SPEAKER_00: That is the thing.
[38:27] SPEAKER_00: Every time he's on his bike, he seems to be doing intensity.
[38:29] SPEAKER_00: Like no one does more intensity than Lionel by by what he puts out on YouTube.
[38:33] SPEAKER_00: Well, it works.
[38:34] SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
[38:35] SPEAKER_05: And perhaps that 17 hours he's doing, you know, maybe that's a huge percentage of that that is really intense and it is really stressful on the body.
[38:43] SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, like I said, I don't have access to his training, but it is interesting, you know, um, lower volume and still having having these kind of over-training symptoms, which um usually calm like red S and bone stress injuries.
[38:57] SPEAKER_03: But a lot of it comes from calorie deficit, which we know from last year in Lake Placid.
[39:03] SPEAKER_03: And uh you uh you almost nipped him, Apo.
[39:06] SPEAKER_03: You got you may have if there was a swim in Canada.
[39:10] SPEAKER_03: He was very public with you know struggling to get down basically enough enough carbohydrate.
[39:16] SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, we've entered a carbohydrate revolution in a sense the last couple years, where all the top guys were doing 120 and you know, Cam Worth was having like 200 grams an hour or something in Texas, like something absolutely absolutely ridiculous.
[39:30] SPEAKER_03: And Lionel was was uh very public about how he was struggling to even get to 90, and you know, he'd get to hour five, six, seven, and iron man, and and his stomach would shut down.
[39:40] SPEAKER_03: And he said in that video how clean he's eating and how he was aiming for 2,000 calories outside of training.
[39:46] SPEAKER_03: So, you know, if we extrapolate all that and he's eating 2,000 calories outside of training, and he's not hitting those super high carbohydrate and and therefore you know high calorie numbers in training, maybe he he can be at quite a deficit off of 17 hours.
[40:00] SPEAKER_03: You know, I I and with the amount of intensity he's doing that that uh he's gonna be burning a lot of kilojoules.
[40:07] SPEAKER_03: So you know it's it's not unheard of, especially for what we know about the way he trains to end up in sort of a long-term calorie hole.
[40:16] SPEAKER_00: 100% Ari.
[40:17] SPEAKER_00: And this is the thing that even I think everyone can relate to this in the triathon bubble, because even the healthiest, most kind of well-rounded triathlete, I think at some point has struggled inside their own head with a little bit of disordered eating to some degree.
[40:32] SPEAKER_00: So you might look at what Lionel's saying and go, well, okay, I don't think he has a full-blown eating disorder, but there's definitely some disordered eating behavior in there.
[40:41] SPEAKER_00: Like even the idea that you are tracking calories in in any way, it can sometimes be quite indicative that you are trying to control calories a little bit.
[40:50] SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think like we can all relate to that, right?
[40:53] SPEAKER_00: We just we we've all had some form of disordered eating, even if it's only very minor.
[40:58] SPEAKER_00: And the thing with Red S is that, like you talked about Apo, okay, he's not a high volume guy, but often a symptom that comes with Red S is you are forced to reduce your training volume because you're really fatigued.
[41:10] SPEAKER_00: And I got the vibe from Lionel that his reduction in volume was a little bit brought about by him being fatigued and struggling with the training load.
[41:19] SPEAKER_00: So if you're chronically calorie in calorie deficits, your body just can't back up day after day after day.
[41:27] SPEAKER_00: And so it's very hard to go and do 25 to 30 hours of training.
[41:30] SPEAKER_00: Like you just find yourself having to take days off and having to reduce the volume of sessions.
[41:35] SPEAKER_00: And I know Lionel talked about in an earlier video this year that he had chosen to take some days off on patches where he in the past would never have done that.
[41:43] SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, I wonder whether that was because he was struggling so much because he was in like a mild to rather extreme calorie deficit on some days, and that was happening most days, and then he was just in a state where he was really fatigued, really tired, not sleeping well.
[41:58] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, Red S is one of those things where sure bone stress injury generally comes from overtraining, but because of the the energy energy deficiency, it it can also mean that if you're just if you're like a low volume guy, your volume just gets lower and lower and lower as well.
[42:14] SPEAKER_00: So it's it's quite complicated, Red S.
[42:16] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, for sure.
[42:17] SPEAKER_02: Now, Apo, have you kind of had I don't know, I feel like you're like the most coachable athlete ever.
[42:23] SPEAKER_02: Like I bet your coach is like, what a pleasure it is to coach Apo.
[42:27] SPEAKER_02: And you're like, you're Jack's talking about disordered eating.
[42:30] SPEAKER_02: You're like, no, I've actually been good my whole life.
[42:32] SPEAKER_02: So I'm just curious.
[42:33] SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've had such a long and like successful career.
[42:35] SPEAKER_02: I'm just kind of curious if you've ever messed or you know, found yourself in that situation.
[42:40] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think so.
[42:42] SPEAKER_05: Um I've had some periods of like really low energy availability.
[42:48] SPEAKER_05: And now that I look back on it, it's you know, times of probably chronically underfueling, not necessarily on purpose, um, but there has been times.
[42:59] SPEAKER_05: And I think, you know, leading up to big races, you know, you mates you you want to go out for ice cream or something, and you have that guilt feeling, oh, I better not.
[43:09] SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, I want to stay lean, I want to be as light as possible for this race.
[43:13] SPEAKER_05: But I've never had anything that I would consider a disorder.
[43:17] SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, sometimes it's just hard to say no to ice cream or burgers and beer on a Sunday afternoon, you know, but never to the point where I think, you know, um, yeah, anything that would be classified as a disorder.
[43:30] SPEAKER_00: And on that point, Apo, everyone talks about being lighter as being faster, and that's kind of like just a fact of endurance training.
[43:38] SPEAKER_00: But have you found a point?
[43:39] SPEAKER_00: Like, have you over your career found that when you get too light you perform worse, when you get too heavy, you perform worse, and there's a middle ground?
[43:45] SPEAKER_00: Or like what have you found out is like the perfect way for you to be at your best in terms of all round performance?
[43:52] SPEAKER_05: I think as I've gotten older, I've given less credence to you know losing weight and trying to stay.
[44:00] SPEAKER_05: Really lean.
[44:01] SPEAKER_05: And it's funny, I feel like I've left that behind me and I've actually maintained the exact same weight.
[44:09] SPEAKER_05: Because I would find that, you know, when there was times of you know, not limiting eating, but times where, you know, I found I was eating the most on rest days because it was almost like a time for your body to catch up.
[44:21] SPEAKER_05: I don't know if you guys are the same, but sometimes when you're training a lot, you just you know, you for not forget about eating, but you're so busy that you don't have time to eat massive amounts of food, and then you have a swim-only day or something, and you can't, you know, sometimes I can't curb my eating.
[44:35] SPEAKER_05: Um, but I think um, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say there's been a particular time where I've gotten too skinny and noticed, you know, my swim or bike power drop-off or anything like that.
[44:47] SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, it's pretty obvious that there's correlation but but between being a little bit lighter and you know, speed and running.
[44:55] SPEAKER_05: Like that's I think that's undisputed.
[44:57] SPEAKER_05: Um, but I also think there's a lot, you know, I would much prefer to be strong and healthy than, you know, skinny and weak.
[45:06] SPEAKER_05: And so yeah, the the the last few years of my career I've just kind of you know, trython training's already so hard.
[45:14] SPEAKER_05: I just try and remove as many of those barriers as possible and try and make it as manageable as possible.
[45:20] SPEAKER_05: And if that means having a beer on a Sunday night while recording a podcast with you guys, then so be it.
[45:26] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, boy.
[45:27] SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we're gonna get into telling a few little stories about ourselves, trying to, you know, lift the lid on some uncomfortable, awkward, funny, confronting conversations.
[45:36] SPEAKER_00: But hearing just to start, Apo, one from me, hearing you talk made me really relate to something that I thought potentially was just something I struggled with.
[45:43] SPEAKER_00: I've been getting back into my training quite a bit recently, and when I've had days off, I've been really struggling to control my eating, like to the point where I basically binge eat on days off, and then I wake up the next day and I have very low motivation to train because my sw my sleep was so much worse because I'd eaten so much junk food on my rest day.
[46:02] SPEAKER_00: I wake up with like a little bit of a stomachache.
[46:04] SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, like, you know, my like when I go to the toilet in the morning, I have to go two or three times and my gut's fucked up because of what I ate on my rest day.
[46:12] SPEAKER_00: Is that a normal thing?
[46:13] SPEAKER_00: Like I just thought I was the only one going through that.
[46:15] SPEAKER_05: I think it's um I've found some correlation between overeating a bunch of carbs and feeling quite sluggish.
[46:23] SPEAKER_05: Um you know, like eating a bunch of processed carbs, like you have, you know, pizza for lunch and then spaghetti for dinner and stuff, and you're not training much.
[46:32] SPEAKER_05: I have found like feeling a bit sluggish eating, you know, simple carbs like that.
[46:37] SPEAKER_05: Um, but I don't think ever to the point of like GI distress and things like that, but definitely, yeah, some you know, post-carb hangover on some of my easier days when I've eaten too much.
[46:49] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[46:50] SPEAKER_00: Um something else that I've struggled with, I don't we don't really have to talk about because it's not my story, but I'll tell you what, after you do a big training day, particularly if you go and ride your bike for like five or six days, really, really hard to um really hard to uh ejaculate if you have sex, I've found.
[47:06] SPEAKER_00: Don't know if either of you any of you boys have struggled with that.
[47:11] SPEAKER_02: That's crazy.
[47:12] SPEAKER_02: You think I'm having sex?
[47:14] SPEAKER_02: Like I'm just I'm going to bed, dude.
[47:16] SPEAKER_02: I'm too tired.
[47:19] SPEAKER_00: Well, that's another issue of itself, isn't it?
[47:21] SPEAKER_00: Like low sex drives are very very common thing when you are training so much.
[47:25] SPEAKER_02: I mean it's all kind of intertwined, right?
[47:27] SPEAKER_02: Um all right, boys.
[47:28] SPEAKER_02: What what about what about your answers to the question?
[47:31] SPEAKER_03: I think it's a great marker because honestly, sometimes when I'm fit and I do like a huge training day, like there are times when I I'm just insanely horny and I'm like, I'll think about it and be like, oh my god, I'm so fit right now.
[47:45] SPEAKER_03: And then sometimes I'm yeah, yeah, like can't get it up, or maybe I can get it up, and and then yeah, really struggle to uh or don't get it across the line.
[47:55] SPEAKER_03: And I know like, oh man, I'm I'm really tired.
[47:58] SPEAKER_03: So it's a good, it's a good marker.
[48:00] SPEAKER_03: It doesn't always happen though.
[48:01] SPEAKER_03: And sometimes I am on such a high after finishing a day like that that like I don't know if having done a day like that makes me horny, or it's like the testosterone's naturally high if I'm if I'm like uh already in a good spot with training, with the sort of fatigue and and fitness, but it's not an every time thing for me, and I feel blessed.
[48:20] SPEAKER_00: Isn't it funny though, like the innuendo and the dancing around saying something how it is that we do?
[48:26] SPEAKER_00: Like I felt so uncomfortable.
[48:27] SPEAKER_00: I didn't, I I did not feel confident enough to say if I'm training really hard, sometimes I struggle to ejaculate.
[48:34] SPEAKER_00: That feels so ridiculous to say.
[48:37] SPEAKER_00: Like in my mind, I'm thinking that is outrageous.
[48:39] SPEAKER_00: And then you are then you go, get it across the line instead of saying what it actually is.
[48:44] SPEAKER_00: Like, why are we so uncomfortable with talking about things?
[48:48] SPEAKER_00: We're all like 30-year-old grown men.
[48:51] SPEAKER_03: We're on a public platform for one.
[48:52] SPEAKER_03: This is going out to I don't know how many thousands of people.
[48:55] SPEAKER_03: I don't know if it's a thing as men were like taught and you guys as as Australians can maybe I bet the culture is different, but I feel like American men are not supposed to talk about that kind of thing publicly.
[49:07] SPEAKER_03: It's seen to it's seen as like uh trashy if you if you talk about having sex, you know, and people will take the piss out of you, they make fun of you and be like, oh, you're not having sex, you fucking virgin.
[49:16] SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
[49:17] SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's like uh I feel like it's kind of taboo to talk about.
[49:21] SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, my dad's probably gonna listen to this podcast and same, dude.
[49:28] SPEAKER_03: Same.
[49:28] SPEAKER_03: Like I really kind of like, what am I comfortable with like my dad hearing is a lot of how I think about probably what I what I say publicly.
[49:35] SPEAKER_00: I'd say in Australia, it's like completely fine to joke about.
[49:38] SPEAKER_00: Like if you're with friends, joking about it's fine.
[49:41] SPEAKER_00: But as soon as you're serious about it, like if I if I just went, if I said to my mates, like, you know, like you said, get across the line, versus if I said, you know, oh, I'm struggling to ejaculate.
[49:51] SPEAKER_00: That's the line.
[49:52] SPEAKER_00: Like you can't become serious, you know what I mean?
[49:55] SPEAKER_03: Um Well, I I had one uh eye-opening moment uh with my grandpa last year, or maybe it was two years ago.
[50:03] SPEAKER_03: I was on Greg on camera gave me a gave me a look.
[50:08] SPEAKER_03: It was on the phone, Greg.
[50:10] SPEAKER_03: I was talking on the phone with my grandpa, and um he he basically said uh, how's your sex life?
[50:19] SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Oh, I don't know, that's good.
[50:21] SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I'm training really hard and it's you know it can be hard.
[50:24] SPEAKER_03: I was taken aback to the fact that he asked, and he said, Well, you can always use the blue pill.
[50:28] SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Grandpa, I'm like 26 years old.
[50:30] SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't need to be using that.
[50:32] SPEAKER_03: And he said, You're never too young for the pill.
[50:35] SPEAKER_02: I never had that conversation wise words from Ari's grandpa.
[50:39] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[50:40] SPEAKER_03: Thanks, thanks, he obviously didn't care.
[50:42] SPEAKER_03: He was, I thought I was like, I I don't remember if I was laughing or if I like he was serious.
[50:47] SPEAKER_03: He was like, and uh this conversation is kind of bringing me back to that with how openly he talked about it.
[50:53] SPEAKER_03: And I was like, You think it's weird to talk with your grandpa about your sex life on the phone?
[50:56] SPEAKER_03: But he was he was just like making sure that I was doing all right.
[50:59] SPEAKER_02: I think we need some wise words from the the elder statesman, the father, just to like just keep us like we're we don't know what we're talking about.
[51:07] SPEAKER_02: I want to hear from like the actual grown-up on the podcast about him.
[51:11] SPEAKER_05: I mean, I um I've never really had an issue um, you know, getting it up, I think.
[51:22] SPEAKER_05: It's funny, it's like we're we're just talking to four of us here on the podcast, but I don't know how many thousands of people are gonna listen to this.
[51:28] SPEAKER_05: Um but yeah, I mean I think there definitely is a correlation between training too much and yeah, I think I definitely go through um phases where the sex drive goes up and goes down.
[51:40] SPEAKER_05: Um you know, when you tapered and into a race, maybe the uh the testosterone gets a little bit uh a little bit high and you get a bit toe, as we call it in Australia.
[51:50] SPEAKER_05: But um yeah, I think some of those heavy Ironman weeks, the the uh the libido is definitely lower.
[51:56] SPEAKER_05: Um but you know, if my uh if my wife's giving me the tap on the shoulder, I'm not uh I'm I'm in no position to decline.
[52:06] SPEAKER_05: What a healthy marriage.
[52:07] SPEAKER_05: Uh just goals, great.
[52:09] SPEAKER_05: Goals.
[52:11] SPEAKER_05: Maybe she won't be tapping me on the shoulder if um I've done a four-hour ride and I've got some uh you know some chafe on the marble bag or something, you know.
[52:19] SPEAKER_05: You got this there's times where you might need to let it rest for uh for 24 hours post-long ride.
[52:24] SPEAKER_05: Juicy saddle sores.
[52:27] SPEAKER_00: I went for my first real long run over the weekend.
[52:30] SPEAKER_00: I did 26k or two hours, and I came back and I was having a shower, and I kind of like bent over a little bit in the shower to pick something up, and when the water went down my butt crack and between my legs and like onto my gooch, I literally had to get out of the shower.
[52:45] SPEAKER_00: I like I like screamed, like I half screamed.
[52:48] SPEAKER_00: It was like a squeal, not a squream.
[52:49] SPEAKER_00: It was actually like it would have even if you were there, it would have been a huge ick.
[52:56] SPEAKER_00: Like you would never sleep with me again if you heard the squeal.
[52:59] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I would never sleep with you again.
[53:00] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
[53:02] SPEAKER_00: Um, and like I had to get out of the shower and get my towel and like dry it, and I was in so much pain that I was scared to get back in the shower.
[53:09] SPEAKER_00: Like, and yeah, I could only imagine what happens if what would have happened if I had opened the the cheeks a little bit more and let more water in there, it would have been you have to power through, that's it.
[53:19] SPEAKER_05: You just you just gotta hold and then it gets Yeah that initial that initial burst of hot water onto the you know the chafe from the from the race suit or the uh or the cycling bibs, but it usually passes in about 10 seconds, so you just gotta, you know, you just gotta clench the cheeks and uh get it over with.
[53:38] SPEAKER_00: Um another story, like we I I think it's not just about sex or sexual health that that Lionel brought to the table, but I think it's just blokes talking about embarrassing um stories in general that is important to hear because we're all kind of weird and we've all kind of had weird stuff happen and we just live live with it uh in isolation.
[53:58] SPEAKER_00: So I thought I'd bring a story to the table, and I hope that we all have a bit of a story to bring.
[54:02] SPEAKER_00: Um so back in the day I was seeing this girl and we were really new.
[54:07] SPEAKER_00: We'd probably been seeing each other for about a month, I think.
[54:10] SPEAKER_00: And um I'd started drinking kombucha because I thought it was really good for me.
[54:15] SPEAKER_00: And this guy that I was working with, who was a very good runner, like a low 210 kind of marathon runner, he drank kombucha every single day.
[54:22] SPEAKER_00: So I started drinking kombucha because he'd kind of convinced me of it and he'd always buy me one for lunch.
[54:27] SPEAKER_00: And I didn't put it together, but I was going for runs and like I was having explosive diarrhea, and I couldn't get more than like a K or two into a run without having to go off into the bush, and I didn't know why.
[54:39] SPEAKER_00: And then this girl, she was also a runner, and so I started going for runs with her.
[54:44] SPEAKER_00: And on our first run that we did together, I had to be like, Oh, I've got to go to the toilet, like just just to go, like, you know, number number one, not number two.
[54:51] SPEAKER_00: That's what I said to her.
[54:52] SPEAKER_00: But and I said, You keep running, I'll catch up.
[54:54] SPEAKER_00: And I and so I went into the bushes and did what I had to do, and then ran off and caught up.
[55:00] SPEAKER_00: And then um a week later we went for like a bush run where it's like 16k loop, and we parked her car um like near uh out in the bush, about a 10-minute drive from where we lived, and we went for a run.
[55:11] SPEAKER_00: And I I it wasn't as bad, but towards the end of the run, I didn't realise it, and I um a little bit of poo came out into my into my running shorts.
[55:20] SPEAKER_00: It wasn't much by any means, but it was a little bit.
[55:23] SPEAKER_00: It wasn't Taylor nib levels last year at Dubai, but it was definitely still a little bit to the point where I'm like, oh, I reckon maybe you might be able to smell that if we're in a confined space, like the car together.
[55:34] SPEAKER_00: And it was a freezing winter morning, like freezing, like one or two degrees Celsius, very cold.
[55:40] SPEAKER_00: And we got back to the car and I put the window down and I said, because I was so hot, but it was freezing, like it was absolutely freezing.
[55:46] SPEAKER_00: And I was like, you just need to have the window down because like I'm sweating so badly here after this run, and we got back to her house and whatever.
[55:53] SPEAKER_00: And then the then on the SAT day that week, the same thing happened.
[55:57] SPEAKER_00: We went to for a run, and I just had explosive diarrhea, and I was so I couldn't like understand what was going on.
[56:03] SPEAKER_00: And so I was talking to um another guy at work, and he said, Oh, it's the kombucha you're drinking.
[56:08] SPEAKER_00: That happened to me as well.
[56:09] SPEAKER_00: Like, I just couldn't, you know, avoid going to the toilet when I was running when I was drinking heaps of kombucha, and so I stopped the kombucha and it stopped happening.
[56:16] SPEAKER_00: And then anyway, I was like, Okay, this is really embarrassing, but I'm gonna just tell this girl about this.
[56:23] SPEAKER_00: And so I told her, and she goes, Oh, yeah, I know.
[56:26] SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Wait, wait, how do you know?
[56:29] SPEAKER_00: Because I thought I'd I thought I'd gotten away with it.
[56:31] SPEAKER_00: And she goes, Yeah, when we went for that run the other night, I turned around and I could see you in the bush when I told her I was just going number one, and I'm like, and you didn't say anything, and she goes, Oh well, thought you'd be embarrassed about it, and I was like, Yeah, that's that's fair.
[56:45] SPEAKER_00: Well, I would have been.
[56:46] SPEAKER_00: And then she and then she goes, Oh yeah, and I could kind of smell something in the car the other day.
[56:52] SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yeah, uh, but I like for the record, I didn't actually poo myself in the car.
[56:57] SPEAKER_00: I just you know when you just have like just a really small amount, or is that just me?
[57:02] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, no, I've been there.
[57:04] SPEAKER_03: That happened to me like uh a month or two ago on a run.
[57:07] SPEAKER_03: First time, first time ever.
[57:09] SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't have a story like that because I guess my my gut microbiome is just not acting up.
[57:15] SPEAKER_03: Um, I love kombucha, and I honestly maybe it's worth sharing.
[57:20] SPEAKER_03: I have diarrhea like all the time, and I I feel like it's just part of training.
[57:25] SPEAKER_03: You just like messing up your gut.
[57:27] SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't even think it's weird, like it's just normal for me.
[57:32] SPEAKER_03: But uh I I know a lot of people when they get sick, they're like, Oh, I was having diarrhea.
[57:36] SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, Am I just sick all the time?
[57:39] SPEAKER_03: But it never happens, never happens uh when I run, except for one time, like everyone knows the game, the the Russian roulette.
[57:47] SPEAKER_03: Uh, and you gotta be careful.
[57:49] SPEAKER_03: And you know, thus far in my entire running career, I've I've gotten away with it.
[57:53] SPEAKER_03: I've it's always been a fart.
[57:54] SPEAKER_03: Um, never shit my pants.
[57:56] SPEAKER_03: And then, like, I want to say it was six weeks ago, I was actually um getting ready to go do the podcast with Greg and Justin.
[58:05] SPEAKER_03: And uh I just just shit my pants.
[58:07] SPEAKER_03: And like before it was before I could even like figure out what was going on.
[58:11] SPEAKER_03: It was just out.
[58:12] SPEAKER_03: Like, I didn't even like it wasn't even like, oh, here comes a fart.
[58:15] SPEAKER_03: It was just like it was so sudden.
[58:18] SPEAKER_03: Uh, and I had to kind of hobble over to the nearest.
[58:22] SPEAKER_03: Uh luckily where where I run around, there's like a lot of bathrooms.
[58:25] SPEAKER_03: So I only had to like kind of walk, jog, shimmy, probably a couple hundred meters uh before I could get cleaned up.
[58:32] SPEAKER_03: But yeah, it really that just came out of nowhere.
[58:34] SPEAKER_02: I mean, do you think it's training related, or like I mean, you know what we do these days, like with the gels and the sports nutrition?
[58:41] SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, it seems like it's maybe not the training, but maybe what we consume sometimes too.
[58:46] SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I I question like what we'd take in a lot too.
[58:50] SPEAKER_02: I'm like, hmm, what is what is happening here?
[58:53] SPEAKER_03: Do you ever do like a super hot run though?
[58:55] SPEAKER_03: And then like you get to the end of the run and all of a sudden you just like you just gotta go.
[58:59] SPEAKER_03: Like you're about to shit your pants, and like there's you have like 10 seconds to get to the bathroom.
[59:04] SPEAKER_03: Like with I think it's just when there's a lot of stress, that's maybe for maybe that's just me when there's like a lot of stress on the body, that's kind of an an effect.
[59:12] SPEAKER_05: I've got one for you, Ari.
[59:14] SPEAKER_05: Would you shit your pants for a top five at Lake Placid?
[59:18] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[59:20] SPEAKER_05: Top ten?
[59:22] SPEAKER_03: Nah.
[59:24] SPEAKER_00: Yes, you would.
[59:24] SPEAKER_00: You 100% would for a top ten, wouldn't you?
[59:27] SPEAKER_03: Um I'm like in if I'm in 11th and like I'm running down the guy in 10th, and we're like two or three miles to go, and I know I have enough time.
[59:38] SPEAKER_03: It's like it's gonna be tight, but like I'm gonna get him, my body's kind of holding up, and I I gotta go immediately.
[59:44] SPEAKER_03: And the choices between yeah, shitting my suit or stopping stopping on the side of the road.
[59:52] SPEAKER_03: That's tough.
[59:53] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'd probably soil myself.
[59:56] SPEAKER_00: Maybe non-poo related.
[59:58] SPEAKER_00: Uh, Greg or Apo, do you have anything that you would like to bring to the table, like Lionel-inspired open conversation?
[1:00:04] SPEAKER_02: Um unfortunately, the one I brought to the table is in the same ballpark, but it's not I I think it's from big sports nutrition days usually, and it's like, you know, we all eat and we fart, but like sometimes on the big, big sports nutrition days, like just absolutely as my partner says, Are you doing toxic farts again?
[1:00:25] SPEAKER_02: Are you doing toxic farts again?
[1:00:26] SPEAKER_02: And we're in the bed.
[1:00:27] SPEAKER_02: She's like, You need to leave the room, and like, I don't know, it just sometimes it puts a little strain, strain on us, and I'm like, Well, I don't know what you want from me.
[1:00:34] SPEAKER_02: I can't hold it in.
[1:00:35] SPEAKER_02: It feels awful to hold it.
[1:00:37] SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it can it can be tough out there, but I don't shit my pants.
[1:00:42] SPEAKER_02: But I mean, it's I smell that I'm like, oh man, that's that's tough, Greg.
[1:00:48] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but everyone likes the smell of their own brew.
[1:00:52] SPEAKER_02: No, these ones though, I'm like, it's borderline.
[1:00:55] SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh, it's like I'm telling you, man.
[1:00:58] SPEAKER_02: It's not I pretend that that's not that bad, but it's bad.
[1:01:02] SPEAKER_02: You're telling me you've never given yourself a Dutch oven, Ari?
[1:01:05] SPEAKER_05: Under the bed sheets, and then lift them over your head?
[1:01:08] SPEAKER_03: No, no, I would I definitely wouldn't enjoy it.
[1:01:11] SPEAKER_03: What I feel like we were we entered this trying to be open and vulnerable and talk about things that like nobody wants to talk about.
[1:01:18] SPEAKER_03: It just devolved into what four guys would be talking about anyway, with just bonus cards and shits.
[1:01:22] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[1:01:23] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I thought we might have some real like, okay, one of us has erectile dysfunction, let's talk about it kind of conversation.
[1:01:29] SPEAKER_05: I don't I don't I don't really have much to bring to the table.
[1:01:32] SPEAKER_02: I mean that's what I'm saying.
[1:01:34] SPEAKER_02: You're like the most coachable, like level-headed, like guy.
[1:01:40] SPEAKER_02: We're all here just like degenerates, like, oh man.
[1:01:43] SPEAKER_05: No, I'm no, I think I'm just too vanilla, you know.
[1:01:46] SPEAKER_05: It's uh this I d I don't know.
[1:01:48] SPEAKER_05: I'm trying to think.
[1:01:49] SPEAKER_05: I don't think there's anything, you know, the odd chafe here or there, the you know, the uh the saddle saw or the just all the general stuff, but I do agree with you guys, like I feel like the protein farts are a big one.
[1:02:02] SPEAKER_05: I feel like sports nutrition isn't the best for our stomach, like the amount that we consume.
[1:02:07] SPEAKER_05: Have you ever left like a gel on your bike frame that you've missed and then you've tried to like clean it off like a week later, and it's like literally like cement, and it's like peeling off the enamel off your bike frame when you're trying to get it off.
[1:02:22] SPEAKER_05: I'm like, we're putting that shit in our stomach, like you know?
[1:02:26] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and it just going right through Ari, just straight straight through, dude.
[1:02:31] SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's what you want.
[1:02:32] SPEAKER_02: You do want it going straight through.
[1:02:33] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, actually Ari's found the secret.
[1:02:35] SPEAKER_02: He's like, oh yeah, I do that every day.
[1:02:36] SPEAKER_02: He's just like, oh, here I go.
[1:02:38] SPEAKER_02: Just absorb what I need, let out the rest.
[1:02:40] SPEAKER_02: It's all the kombucha I drink.
[1:02:42] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I thought the kombucha's supposed to do the opposite, but uh, yeah, not for Jack.
[1:02:47] SPEAKER_00: I think we've done uh plenty of health chat here, plenty of uh we were gonna give some health tips, but I think we've we've basically done that throughout this this anyway.
[1:02:55] SPEAKER_00: I mean, um just to wrap it up, I would say that uh the only thing I've ever really struggled with outside of that that poo story, and I kind of touched on it before, but like just like my sex drive can be so ridiculously low for long periods of time when training.
[1:03:10] SPEAKER_00: Like so crazy low.
[1:03:12] SPEAKER_00: Like I could go two months without like wanting to have sex, I would say, when when when when I'm training every day.
[1:03:19] SPEAKER_00: And uh I don't know, I've always thought that's probably pretty normal, but I also think the more I learn, the more I realise it's not actually that normal, and it's a sh sign of pretty bad hormonal health.
[1:03:30] SPEAKER_00: Probably like overtraining, yes, but also from a nutritional aspect.
[1:03:34] SPEAKER_00: Like I think I think nutrition and sleep have a huge role in hormonal health, and we probably don't think about it.
[1:03:39] SPEAKER_00: And when I'm training a lot, sometimes I get into bad habits where I don't sleep very well, and then I eat very poorly as well.
[1:03:45] SPEAKER_00: And so that combination of like uh poor sleep, poor nutrition, and quite a lot of training really impacts my hormonal health to the point where yeah, I'm I I don't ever really want to have sex.
[1:03:56] SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think it can be a really good measure of like how often do you want to have sex, how often are you thinking about sex, um as to like how healthy you are on a hormonal level, which um probably never gets talked about really.
[1:04:09] SPEAKER_00: Like I've done so many training and and um and performance-based podcasts, like 300 of them, and I've never really talked about the importance of um hormonal health and and and how you perform on race day, but I think it has a huge, huge impact, and it's kind of like this sleeping giant in in negatively affecting performance that we don't talk about.
[1:04:28] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I've I've I've struggled with that.
[1:04:31] SPEAKER_03: Thank you for sharing, Jack.
[1:04:33] SPEAKER_03: I personally, if I go longer than like four or five days, I like know something's up, and either I I mean I I don't really do anything about it, I kind of just wait for it to go away and it and it eventually does, and I get back on top of sleep.
[1:04:47] SPEAKER_03: I'm honestly gonna leave it.
[1:04:48] SPEAKER_03: I don't know if it's abnormal or or if that's normal with training.
[1:04:52] SPEAKER_03: I would leave that to Dr.
[1:04:53] SPEAKER_03: Apo to um diagnose you whether you you you have an issue, Jack.
[1:04:57] SPEAKER_03: But thank you for being so vulnerable with us.
[1:05:00] SPEAKER_05: I want to know, Jack, if you're still um seeing that girl that caught you pooing behind.
[1:05:04] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, the poo girl.
[1:05:06] SPEAKER_00: Nah, nah, I'm not.
[1:05:08] SPEAKER_00: That was uh that was quite a few years ago now, maybe like yeah, that was over half a decade ago, that's for sure.
[1:05:14] SPEAKER_00: Uh but I still think about it.
[1:05:16] SPEAKER_00: It still makes me really cringe every time I think about it.
[1:05:19] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[1:05:20] SPEAKER_00: All right, let's move on.
[1:05:22] SPEAKER_00: Um we it's no secret that Justin Riale, uh co-host of this show, is not here anymore, and Apo has taken over yet again.
[1:05:31] SPEAKER_00: Look, we don't want to go too much into it, but we we did prepare a few things.
[1:05:58] SPEAKER_00: I never realized how much I would.
[1:06:00] SPEAKER_00: Miss the relentless two to three hourly calendar updates he would force upon the group until he was gone.
[1:06:07] SPEAKER_00: I will also miss the constant, constant messaging from Justin on the group WhatsApp chat.
[1:06:12] SPEAKER_00: Hundreds of messages every day about whether he thinks ex-athlete could beat him, should he quit his job and go full-time athlete?
[1:06:19] SPEAKER_00: Or to question what on God's earth was the point of another crazy training session Ari had done that day?
[1:06:25] SPEAKER_00: And now that he is gone, the group chat has all but died with him.
[1:06:29] SPEAKER_00: It has averaged less than one message per day since his passing.
[1:06:33] SPEAKER_00: Which leaves me to ponder, was Justin really that busy?
[1:06:38] SPEAKER_00: Can a man who considers nine hours of weekly training and calls a 30-minute easy jog a long run ever understand what it means to be truly busy?
[1:06:46] SPEAKER_00: Although, something I often forget is just how much time he spends on a daily basis staring at himself in his full-length floor-to-ceiling mirrors.
[1:06:54] SPEAKER_00: I will miss the constant selfie he would send daily of us with his shirt off in front of those goddamn mirrors.
[1:07:02] SPEAKER_00: I know one of his dreams for when he did quit his job was to install full-length floor-to-ceiling mirrors in every room of his house.
[1:07:08] SPEAKER_00: That's right, including his bedroom.
[1:07:12] SPEAKER_00: I can think of so many people I would have rather died before Justin.
[1:07:18] SPEAKER_00: Like the San Francisco boat driver, for example.
[1:07:22] SPEAKER_00: As many of you know by now, Justin and I were extremely close.
[1:07:27] SPEAKER_00: He would often tell me, almost on a daily basis, that I was his favourite triathlon podcaster.
[1:07:32] SPEAKER_00: I'll always remember the last words Justin said to me.
[1:07:35] SPEAKER_00: I'm proud of you, Jack.
[1:07:37] SPEAKER_00: Never change.
[1:07:38] SPEAKER_00: Well, I heard you loud and clearly, Justin.
[1:07:41] SPEAKER_00: I will never change.
[1:07:43] SPEAKER_00: Never ever.
[1:07:45] SPEAKER_00: Rest in peace, Justin.
[1:07:50] SPEAKER_03: Brought tears to my eyes.
[1:07:51] SPEAKER_03: That was beautiful, Jack.
[1:07:52] SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
[1:07:53] SPEAKER_03: I've prepared a few words as well.
[1:07:55] SPEAKER_03: Today, we mourn the loss of our friend Justin.
[1:07:59] SPEAKER_03: It's been a week, and I haven't heard him talk about how he trains around his full-time, extremely lucrative corporate marketing job.
[1:08:06] SPEAKER_03: There are so many great things we can all say about Justin, but we must acknowledge that towards the end, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.
[1:08:13] SPEAKER_03: His addiction got the better of him, and despite our interventions, he never admitted his problem or sought the help he needed.
[1:08:20] SPEAKER_03: In remembering our departed friend, we must acknowledge what Justin refused to.
[1:08:25] SPEAKER_03: Slow Twitch kills.
[1:08:28] SPEAKER_03: The forums are so toxic that they can literally kill a man.
[1:08:31] SPEAKER_03: We can't bring Justin back, but we can help others, which is why I'm announcing the Justin Rielle Triathlon Forum Addiction Rehabilitation Center, to which Jack has already pledged one million Australian dollars to build.
[1:08:44] SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, this only comes out to five American dollars, so we are still looking for more donors.
[1:08:50] SPEAKER_03: We miss you, Justin.
[1:08:51] SPEAKER_03: We know that God has you set up with a full-length mirror in heaven, and so you're not looking down on us.
[1:08:56] SPEAKER_03: You're looking at yourself flexing for all eternity.
[1:09:00] SPEAKER_03: Rest in peace.
[1:09:01] SPEAKER_03: Beautiful.
[1:09:03] SPEAKER_02: I guess I guess I'll have to say what I have to say as well.
[1:09:08] SPEAKER_02: Dear Justin, I'm sorry.
[1:09:12] SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry I didn't do more.
[1:09:14] SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry I didn't reach out and try harder.
[1:09:21] SPEAKER_02: I never knew the floor-to-ceiling mirrors would cause you to flex so hard that you died.
[1:09:27] SPEAKER_02: They say the mirror cracked under the pressure of your gaze, but we all know it was the sheer weight of your self-confidence.
[1:09:36] SPEAKER_02: And while he's no longer with us, I know he's up there somewhere, running shirtless through the clouds.
[1:09:43] SPEAKER_02: I want to promise you here, Justin, that I will be here to take care of your wife.
[1:09:49] SPEAKER_02: I will make sure to provide her with lover tending care.
[1:09:54] SPEAKER_02: I love you.
[1:09:56] SPEAKER_02: I miss you.
[1:09:58] SPEAKER_01: I close my eyes.
[1:10:28] SPEAKER_05: It was in Oceanside earlier this year.
[1:10:31] SPEAKER_05: Um but you know, we're gathered here today on this podcast, not because Justin finished first, but because he is now finished in life.
[1:10:42] SPEAKER_05: Justin told me at Oceanside he doesn't do triathlons to be fast.
[1:10:47] SPEAKER_05: He does them to test how long he can ignore pain.
[1:10:50] SPEAKER_05: And we all know that when he's out on the run, Justin is ignoring pain for quite a long time.
[1:10:57] SPEAKER_05: Justin, it was an honour, and I'm sorry that I ran past you at Oceanside going two minutes a mile faster.
[1:11:04] SPEAKER_05: But there was no reason to uh, you know, get upset, and I'm sorry.
[1:11:10] SPEAKER_05: I wish you the best up there, and I hope we can meet again.
[1:11:16] SPEAKER_05: The end.
[1:11:18] SPEAKER_03: Beautiful, beautiful words, everyone.
[1:11:21] SPEAKER_00: On behalf of the wider triath on our community, Justin Riale, you will be missed.
[1:11:28] SPEAKER_00: Ari Greg Apo, thank you for joining us.
[1:11:33] SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry to end on this sombre note, but that is the reality of life and podcasting.
[1:11:38] SPEAKER_00: Try and enjoy the rest of your week.
[1:11:40] SPEAKER_00: Justin, you'll be in all of our thoughts.
[1:11:43] SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Jack.
[1:11:44] SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Greg, thank you, Sam.
[1:11:45] SPEAKER_03: Have a good week, everyone.
[1:11:48] SPEAKER_03: I just made that up on the fly.

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