# Lionel Sanders DOMINATES, Paula Findlay Says It How It Is & All Things St George

An episode of [The Triathlon Hour](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1595443343), 12 May 2025, 1 h 04 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2640942/episodes/19698062-lionel-sanders-dominates-paula-findlay-says-it-how-it-is-all-things-st-george.mp3

Opinions, discussions and observations from a big weekend at Ironman 70.3 St George.

## Transcript

[0:00] SPEAKER_00: There's never been more triathlon stories.
[0:02] SPEAKER_00: The Triathlon Our Podcast brings Type A's together.
[0:05] SPEAKER_00: Triathlon nerds are watching news and fearless debate.
[0:09] SPEAKER_00: We're invested in you.
[0:10] SPEAKER_00: From Lanzarate to Noosa to Coney.
[0:13] SPEAKER_00: Andrew Mesik is listening wherever you are.
[0:15] SPEAKER_00: On Instagram and podcasts, training stories you need, providing you the entertainment that celebrates Triathlon, the Triathon, Triathlon opinions, and much more.
[0:27] SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the Trithon Hour.
[0:29] SPEAKER_00: We're here for our first recap podcast of 2025.
[0:32] SPEAKER_00: This is something that's been missing from the channel for a little bit now, but we're back, baby.
[0:36] SPEAKER_00: And to do it, I'm joined by three of the best opinionists in the game.
[0:40] SPEAKER_00: They're also professional triathletes themselves.
[0:42] SPEAKER_00: Greg Harper's here, the best swimmer in Trithon.
[0:44] SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Greg.
[0:45] SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Jack.
[0:46] SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.
[0:47] SPEAKER_00: We're joined by Ari Clow as well, always full of opinions and not afraid to s uh to say exactly what he thinks.
[0:53] SPEAKER_00: Hello, mate.
[0:55] SPEAKER_00: And of course, Justin Riale, world famous for singing Pink Pony Club on the Triton hour last week.
[1:00] SPEAKER_00: Justin, welcome.
[1:02] SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me, Jack.
[1:03] SPEAKER_03: It was uh it was a tough day yesterday at 70.3 St.
[1:06] SPEAKER_03: George.
[1:07] SPEAKER_03: So stoked to get this group together and just talk shop and talk about the highs and the lows of the day.
[1:14] SPEAKER_03: Uh my race recap was basically getting off the bike in the front, flatting, having terrible legs the rest of the day, retiring from Trathon in an outhouse and finishing somewhere way down the field.
[1:26] SPEAKER_03: So we're not gonna dwell on that.
[1:27] SPEAKER_03: If you'd like to learn more about that, you can tune into the Triathon Hours Patreon podcast, where Greg, Ari, and I give each other shit and break down all of our races.
[1:35] SPEAKER_03: Today we're gonna be starting off the conversation with the headline of the week, which is never doubt the king of 70.3, Lionel Sanders.
[1:43] SPEAKER_03: Anyone who has doubted him over the last few weeks or months has been just proven wrong over and over again, myself included.
[1:50] SPEAKER_03: I had Magnus for the win.
[1:51] SPEAKER_03: Boy, was I wrong.
[1:52] SPEAKER_03: What do we think of Lionel's form yesterday, everyone?
[1:55] SPEAKER_00: Well, where do you think it ranks Ari and Greg on Lionel's resume as best wins in his career?
[2:00] SPEAKER_00: Is it number one?
[2:02] SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
[2:03] SPEAKER_01: I feel like he rode 205 low at Oceanside back when bikes were like heavy and shitty and rim breaks and no one knew anything about aerodynamics.
[2:15] SPEAKER_01: I so I feel like in the maybe like Lionel era too, if we split it, you know, into the first part of his career, second half of his career, is this would be the best.
[2:26] SPEAKER_01: But I feel like he used to throw down some absolutely absolutely disgusting bikes.
[2:33] SPEAKER_03: I mean, what did he do yesterday?
[2:35] SPEAKER_03: He did just break the course record at a course where they've had 70.3 worlds here.
[2:40] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what I think.
[2:41] SPEAKER_00: Like to put it into context, we all talk about how good Gustav Eden was 2019 to 2022, like arguably the best middle distance triathlet that's walked the planet.
[2:51] SPEAKER_00: And Lionel was better than him yesterday, better than what he's thrown down on that course.
[2:55] SPEAKER_00: I mean it's obviously different days and and technology's always changing, but I don't see anything vastly different in Lionel's performance versus Gustav.
[3:03] SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't think there's been groundbreaking changes in technology to make you faster in that period of time.
[3:07] SPEAKER_00: Like Lionel was at the level where he probably would have been competitive with like 2021, 2022 Gustav Eden over that course.
[3:15] SPEAKER_02: But the fact remains is Lionel cannot win a world championship with his swim.
[3:21] SPEAKER_02: And that's what I think.
[3:24] SPEAKER_01: Marbella's a pretty uh take this year, uh it's a pretty hilly course, right?
[3:28] SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's as hard as St.
[3:29] SPEAKER_01: George, but it's there's a lot of climbing.
[3:31] SPEAKER_01: And he swam uh, I mean, it was two minutes-ish from the front, the very front, or two forty-five from Seth Ryder, but he was only like what, a minute from you, Justin?
[3:44] SPEAKER_01: Just over a minute.
[3:45] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, just about the Which is the real front.
[3:48] SPEAKER_03: He had a very good swim, I would say, for Lionel.
[3:50] SPEAKER_03: It was 25 minutes flat, and you know, he swam one minute behind Magnus, the same split as Werf, 45 seconds behind Matt Marquot, an Olympic trial swimmer.
[4:01] SPEAKER_03: So I don't think it was a bad swim, and it clearly put him in contention where he had that minute gap over Sam Long, and he caught me at mile 15, which in my six or seven races against Lionel is by far the earliest he has ever caught me on the bike.
[4:15] SPEAKER_03: And it's not like me and Magnus weren't pushing big power.
[4:18] SPEAKER_03: I couldn't believe how quickly he got to the front and just took control of that race, grabbed it by the horns and went basically mile 10 to the finish line by himself in a dominant fashion.
[4:27] SPEAKER_00: It is interesting, isn't it, how because it's Lionel, we're always like, yeah, it was awesome, but there's always a but with Lionel.
[4:34] SPEAKER_00: And of course it's his swim, and when the Europeans are all in there and the New Zealanders and Australians are all in there, how can he do?
[4:41] SPEAKER_00: Like, I think it is a it's a it's actually a fair point, Greg.
[4:44] SPEAKER_00: If Hayden Wilde's there, if Yalla Geans, Martin Van Riel, if there's a really big, strong front pack, how would he do?
[4:50] SPEAKER_00: Like, how would his his performance yesterday have stacked up at, say, Singapore?
[4:55] SPEAKER_02: I you know, I think you're right.
[4:56] SPEAKER_02: And the swim dynamics change.
[4:58] SPEAKER_02: I mean, the reality is that there were swimmers missing yesterday, and that can go into Lionel's favor.
[5:03] SPEAKER_02: So, you know, when you get those guys you just mentioned, and then you're behind the Matias Magnus train, like you just can't catch up.
[5:09] SPEAKER_02: Like, those guys are at his level on the on the riding.
[5:12] SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I mean, I think it's one of his best performances ever, and uh, it's hard to you know compare race to race, but you know, I I still think that's that's his Achilles heel, and he can't win the world title because of it.
[5:24] SPEAKER_01: How do we how do we go from Lionel is on the same level as Gustav 2021-2022, which was the best version of Gustav, one of the best 70.3 athletes to walk the planet to he can't compete with like the same level of guys?
[5:42] SPEAKER_00: I think the the thing is that maybe we're saying that Hayden Wilde now and the top echelon of guys now are already better.
[5:49] SPEAKER_00: We I guess that's the only way you can justify it.
[5:51] SPEAKER_00: Or like just dynamics-wise, like okay, is it just dynamics that matter so much for Lionel's racing to get this version of him?
[5:59] SPEAKER_00: Like, if he gets chucked into Mar Bayer at the end of the year, do the dynamics change where even if he puts in physiologically the exact same performance as he does as he did yesterday at St.
[6:09] SPEAKER_00: George, that it ends up him finishing fifth or sixth?
[6:12] SPEAKER_00: That's the question, isn't it?
[6:14] SPEAKER_01: It's course dependent.
[6:15] SPEAKER_01: And Sam in that year with Gustav, which we were talking about, uh he he finished second and you know, kind of close.
[6:23] SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the exact gap was, but he basically biked and ran his way all the way up to the front.
[6:27] SPEAKER_01: So if it were a course as hard as St.
[6:29] SPEAKER_01: George, or if it was on St.
[6:31] SPEAKER_01: George, I think that changes it a lot.
[6:34] SPEAKER_01: Uh but speaking of Sam uh Yeah, I mean let's not discount some records either.
[6:40] SPEAKER_01: But his swim has regressed, it looks like, uh, over the last uh two, three years.
[6:45] SPEAKER_01: It feels like he used to be consistently coming out two minutes back from the lead, and now it's over three.
[6:51] SPEAKER_01: Uh and it seemed like it was worse at T100, and it you know, now he's uh a full minute behind Lionel.
[6:57] SPEAKER_00: Well, we've got our resident swim expert here, Greg Harper, the best swimmer in middle distance triathlon.
[7:02] SPEAKER_00: Greg, what do you think?
[7:03] SPEAKER_00: Because in Singapore I th I saw the same thing.
[7:05] SPEAKER_00: Sam Long's swim does feel like it's gone a little bit backwards despite the fact in training it seems like he's doing more volume than ever.
[7:11] SPEAKER_00: And at St.
[7:12] SPEAKER_00: George yesterday, I don't think he had a bad swim, but it definitely looks like he's just the same as he's ever like as he's always been, if not maybe a fraction slower, like Ari said.
[7:24] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean it's it's it's hard to put your finger exactly on it, but you know, in the end, volume isn't Sam's problem in the swim.
[7:32] SPEAKER_02: We know he's fit.
[7:33] SPEAKER_02: He has technical deficiencies that are glaring.
[7:37] SPEAKER_02: His speed is not where it needs to be.
[7:39] SPEAKER_02: And you know, if I were him, I'd be swimming 12k a week.
[7:42] SPEAKER_02: I'd be swimming five, 2K practices a week that are incredibly focused on his his lack of what he needs, his speed and technique, because his fitness is not the problem.
[7:53] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna comment on what Sam needs in training.
[7:56] SPEAKER_03: I don't know what his training looks like, and Greg's the swim coach, not me, but uh Sam 70.3 St.
[8:01] SPEAKER_03: George swim times 2021, 2523, 22, 25 flat, 23, 2530.
[8:07] SPEAKER_03: So pretty consistently, low to mid 25 minutes.
[8:10] SPEAKER_03: And then last year, 26.03, this year 26 flat.
[8:13] SPEAKER_03: So, you know, stagnant at best over five years with basically no progression to show for.
[8:19] SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's a little easier effort, right?
[8:21] SPEAKER_03: And he's biking and running a little stronger than he used to.
[8:23] SPEAKER_03: Uh, but you know, I obviously that's not where he wants to be.
[8:27] SPEAKER_03: And he lost a minute on Lionel in this race, and that cost him critically.
[8:30] SPEAKER_03: I think that may have been the difference in the race because Sam threw down a hell of a bike run combo, you know, up there with the best in the world, very, very close to Lionel, probably similar to Lionel because Lionel was able to work with Magnus for a little bit of that bike ride.
[8:42] SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, Lionel came by me at mile 15 yesterday.
[8:45] SPEAKER_03: The man was on a frickin' mission, dead serious, didn't even look at me, no smile, just no acknowledgement.
[8:52] SPEAKER_03: Like he is just gonna go to the front and go win this race.
[8:55] SPEAKER_03: Sam comes by me after I flatted.
[8:56] SPEAKER_03: He actually hadn't passed me.
[8:57] SPEAKER_03: So I get back on the road two minutes later, and Sam comes by screaming at me, Where's Lionel?
[9:03] SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, he's way up there with Magnus, and he goes, What?
[9:08] SPEAKER_03: And I was cracking up.
[9:09] SPEAKER_03: I was like, You ask, buddy.
[9:11] SPEAKER_03: And he he like he was in panic mode.
[9:14] SPEAKER_03: Like, all right, he he's on a hunt, he's chasing, and it was kind of the story all day.
[9:19] SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, I'm sure it's kind of it's difficult to crawl back from.
[9:23] SPEAKER_03: And he he's had to do it many, many times in T100, and he put on a great race and gave it a great effort.
[9:28] SPEAKER_03: But you know, if he's with Lionel, that dynamic completely changes.
[9:31] SPEAKER_03: You might have a bit more confidence, you can play the tactics, and it was clear from the gun here yesterday that he was on the back foot in the in the race.
[9:38] SPEAKER_00: I the I think this Sam Long and Lionel conversation all blending into one is really good.
[9:43] SPEAKER_00: So at Singapore, which was obviously Sam's first race of the season, um, he rode like 151 there that day.
[9:51] SPEAKER_00: He had the fifth fastest bike.
[9:52] SPEAKER_00: Hayden Wilde put, I think it was almost two minutes into him on the on the bike.
[9:56] SPEAKER_00: It was pretty much Hayden who had the second fastest bike of the day behind Rico Bogan, but they were pretty much the same time.
[10:03] SPEAKER_00: They put a like Rico and Hayden put about the exact same amount of time into Sam Long at Singapore as Lionel put into Sam Long at St.
[10:11] SPEAKER_00: George.
[10:12] SPEAKER_00: And then Sam Long went on and had the third fastest run of the day at Singapore, 101.50, I think it was.
[10:18] SPEAKER_00: And um, it was pretty much the same time as Hayden Wilde.
[10:21] SPEAKER_00: I think Hayden Wilde was like 10 seconds faster.
[10:23] SPEAKER_00: And obviously Sam Long and Lionel Sanders ran within about 10, 20 seconds of each other yesterday at St.
[10:28] SPEAKER_00: George.
[10:28] SPEAKER_00: So very clearly, right, from this race, we're seeing Lionel Sanders and Sam Long have one of, if not the best one, two punch in their bike and run.
[10:39] SPEAKER_00: That's undebatable.
[10:40] SPEAKER_00: They're pretty much as good, give or take, you know, one, two minutes as Rico Bogan, Hayden Wilde, all these kind of guys, Martin Van Riel.
[10:49] SPEAKER_00: It's just the swim, isn't it?
[10:50] SPEAKER_00: That's the big thing we're we're we're kind of questioning here is okay, that performance is great in a North American race.
[10:56] SPEAKER_00: They've shown that when it comes to North American races, they're not far off unbeatable.
[11:01] SPEAKER_00: Like Magnus Ditliv was in this race that we'll we'll get to, and it's all on the back of their like out of this world bike runs.
[11:09] SPEAKER_00: But when there's a bigger swim pack, can can they still you know have that same level of performance?
[11:14] SPEAKER_00: That's the takeaway, you know, broad stroke from yesterday, isn't it?
[11:17] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I mean they both have here and there, right?
[11:20] SPEAKER_03: Sam has finished on the podium in many T100 races and world championships, and so is Lionel.
[11:25] SPEAKER_03: It's just about can they do it every time?
[11:27] SPEAKER_03: Because if there were front pack swimmers, they would be multiple world champions, right?
[11:32] SPEAKER_01: Well, speaking of of Magnus, which Jackie kind of brought up as like the measuring stick, he was obviously off yesterday.
[11:40] SPEAKER_01: I think it's a a little unfair.
[11:41] SPEAKER_01: I think Magnus and Sam Laidlow, especially over full distance, are I I still think those two are a level above really anybody else.
[11:51] SPEAKER_01: Um, I think Magnus, for the most part, makes his run look better in 70.3.
[11:58] SPEAKER_01: I think his full distance runs pretty good, but especially over 70.3 because he doesn't even have to bike that hard.
[12:03] SPEAKER_01: Um so yes, I he was clearly off yesterday.
[12:08] SPEAKER_01: I had him for the win.
[12:10] SPEAKER_01: Uh pretty much everyone had him for the win.
[12:12] SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it was funny because my uh my buddy Josh, we were texting who our podium picks were, and he said, uh Magnus DNF, he he uh he's always takes a while to get back in shape after racing a full distance.
[12:24] SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if it was that or if it was, you know, traveling from Europe is is hard.
[12:29] SPEAKER_01: Um, but he clearly had an off day even before the flat tire.
[12:33] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was worried about him because of the travel.
[12:36] SPEAKER_00: Like people Americans don't realize how hard it is for Europeans and you know people from Oceania to travel to America and race, just like Europeans don't realize how hard it is for Americans and people from Oceania to go to Europe.
[12:48] SPEAKER_00: So I wouldn't discount the travel, but yeah, Magnus, I don't know.
[12:52] SPEAKER_00: I like he's one of the that crew who, when they're a hundred percent in on a race and that's their like sole focus, you know you're gonna get like a really high-level Magnus.
[13:02] SPEAKER_00: I just wonder whether like I wonder how much Magnus cared about about 70.3 St.
[13:06] SPEAKER_00: George compared to say how much he cared about South Af South Africa or Nice at the end of the year.
[13:11] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean half the pro series points.
[13:13] SPEAKER_01: And he can, it's so much easier to make up a 70.3 if his end goal is both pro series and uh you know world championship performance.
[13:22] SPEAKER_01: But it's he was targeting it from a long way out.
[13:25] SPEAKER_03: So I was gonna say, I think that's BS.
[13:28] SPEAKER_03: Like you, you know, you don't fly across the Atlantic and not care about the race, right?
[13:32] SPEAKER_03: Like this isn't a a backyard 70.3 for him.
[13:34] SPEAKER_03: He came with his whole crew, he was here for a week, he talked about it for a while, he planned it for six weeks, and I think it was just an off day.
[13:40] SPEAKER_03: It happens to everybody, you know.
[13:42] SPEAKER_03: He he went up crazy hard on the bike.
[13:44] SPEAKER_03: Lionel caught him and dropped him, and it was a bit of downhill.
[13:48] SPEAKER_03: Obviously, he had terrible luck with the flat, uh, but a little bit of just kind of downhill slide from there.
[13:53] SPEAKER_03: And I don't know.
[13:54] SPEAKER_03: I don't I don't think it's that much more than that, right?
[13:56] SPEAKER_03: Like I think uh maybe he's a little beat up from South Africa where he put on a clinic, but I don't think we can say how he didn't know what happened performance.
[14:05] SPEAKER_02: North America has the best trah that's in the world.
[14:08] SPEAKER_02: Obviously, it was shown yesterday.
[14:10] SPEAKER_01: One, two, three, baby.
[14:12] SPEAKER_01: The long course specifically, even the Olympians couldn't compete.
[14:15] SPEAKER_01: Even the North American Olympians, the full uh North American long course podium on the men's side yesterday with Lionel Sam and shout out to Colin such that uh breakthrough performance uh held off Kevin McDowell, short course Olympian by 20 seconds.
[14:35] SPEAKER_00: This is a real thing that wherever races are, the people who are from there do better.
[14:40] SPEAKER_00: So, for example, if you go back to the world championships that Rico Bogan won, where it was Fred Funk and Jan Struttman uh in second and third, are they ever gonna do that at the Taupo World Championships?
[14:51] SPEAKER_00: Or if the world championships are in America, let's say they're in St.
[14:54] SPEAKER_00: George.
[14:54] SPEAKER_00: Like Gustav Eden's pretty special in that he did that at St.
[14:57] SPEAKER_00: George, but it's such an advantage to have a race close to where you base yourself and train in terms of the level of performance you're gonna have.
[15:05] SPEAKER_00: Like it's not a surprise to me that Magnus had a bad day.
[15:07] SPEAKER_00: And if you look at you know the whole 11th to kind of 15th where you had Max Newman and Magnus Ditliff and Cameron Wirth, that they had bad days, but you know, like Colin Such came third and Kevin McDowell came fourth, and Sam and Lionel.
[15:21] SPEAKER_00: I think there's such a huge advantage.
[15:22] SPEAKER_00: We saw it in in New Zealand, like obviously Yellow Geans is from Australia and Hayden Wilde's from New Zealand, and they were the big hitters down there in Taupo.
[15:30] SPEAKER_00: Uh that's why I actually think at 70.3 worlds this year, I think kind of like realize that this happens and realize how good the Europeans are going to be there and how hard it's gonna be for Australians and and Americans to travel and do well at these races.
[15:46] SPEAKER_00: I just think it's such an under-talked about part of long long course triathon that the travel impacts the race so much.
[15:52] SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what we saw in in Magnus Ditliff to go over that again.
[15:55] SPEAKER_00: I I do think he didn't come in early enough.
[15:58] SPEAKER_00: I think it's very, very hard to travel and get up for a 70.3, particularly, even more so than an Iron Man, just because of the intensity of it.
[16:05] SPEAKER_00: And um, I just don't think he can sleep on that.
[16:07] SPEAKER_00: On that, hasn't Bert Whistle been here for weeks?
[16:11] SPEAKER_03: No, he flew home after Oceanside.
[16:13] SPEAKER_03: And then he flew back really.
[16:15] SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's crazy.
[16:16] SPEAKER_01: Respect.
[16:17] SPEAKER_03: Now he's staying, and the two of us got wild cards to San Francisco, so he'll be staying going to Boulder at altitude for the next few weeks before his final North American race in San Francisco.
[16:26] SPEAKER_03: But it's tough coming across the pond from Australia to perform, and he put a great show, you know, pretty, I think, like solid result for him in fifth place.
[16:34] SPEAKER_03: But uh, I don't think he was quite as sharp as he was in Oceanside.
[16:36] SPEAKER_03: I think he would probably agree with that.
[16:38] SPEAKER_00: I couldn't agree more either.
[16:39] SPEAKER_00: And I think it's because of that travel.
[16:41] SPEAKER_00: I think if he had a stayed in America, he probably would have been pretty competitive with Collin for that third place.
[16:46] SPEAKER_00: I I I would almost, I know it's like coulda, woulda, shoulda, but I almost I almost think he just would have would have come third if he had stayed over in America and and done the race.
[16:55] SPEAKER_00: I I like I do think that's how big a impact travel has.
[16:59] SPEAKER_03: Well, Jake Burrwers, if you're listening, you can stay in my guest room and train with me for three weeks next time.
[17:05] SPEAKER_02: I want to give one shout out to uh Seth Ryder because he just went off the front in the swim and then kind of rode solo for a while.
[17:12] SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, it's just good to see someone who just goes for it.
[17:14] SPEAKER_02: You know, we all try to be Lucy Lucy Charles, but we can't.
[17:17] SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, uh that was good to see.
[17:20] SPEAKER_03: It was an unbelievable swim.
[17:21] SPEAKER_03: I mean, up there with Greg Harper, you you know, would have been a good battle for First Out of the Water, Greg, I dare say.
[17:27] SPEAKER_03: Because I was uh in that front main chase pack.
[17:29] SPEAKER_03: I thought there was a group of about 10 of 10 or so people way up front.
[17:32] SPEAKER_03: Turns out it was only Seth Ryder, a massive 40-second gap to Mark Dubrick, and then another massive gap to myself and the rest of the contenders.
[17:40] SPEAKER_03: And, you know, yeah, Seth just blitzed that thing at 110 per 100 pace and kind of paid for it later on the run, but very, very impressive swim and really split the whole thing up.
[17:51] SPEAKER_01: Well, Greg, if you were there and maybe let's say one or two more swimmers of of that level, like uh, you know, Magnus Manor and whoever else is kind of there uh at Oceanside with you, does that completely change the entire dynamic?
[18:05] SPEAKER_01: You know, because like Dubrick then stays on, and then that pack is Baker, and maybe Justin and and the pack that he came out with all stay on, and then Lionel is even further back.
[18:16] SPEAKER_01: How does that work?
[18:17] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I think it's possible, and like it the splits happen in different spots, and I think that's super, super possible.
[18:24] SPEAKER_02: But you know, it could have just been a group of five, and then those guys could have been a minute back, but yeah, and that's what I'm saying.
[18:30] SPEAKER_02: Like just based on how the first 300 meters goes and who's going out there, like can really change how the swims go in the end.
[18:37] SPEAKER_02: So I I think it's super valid, but you know, you never really know.
[18:40] SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, good good swim for line all around.
[18:44] SPEAKER_02: And yeah.
[18:45] SPEAKER_03: What I'll say about 70.3 St.
[18:47] SPEAKER_03: George, and it's a shame that the this is the last and final year of the race, is that yes, it certainly would have changed the way the swim packs come out and the initial bike groups form, but it would not have changed the outcome because this course is relentless on the bike and there's absolutely nowhere to hide.
[19:03] SPEAKER_03: Unlike Oceanside, where you have the group dynamics for about 35 miles until it gets hard, St.
[19:08] SPEAKER_03: George kicks you in the teeth within 10 minutes on the bike and packs shatter.
[19:13] SPEAKER_03: And there's a reason Magnus and Lionel got to the front within 20 minutes of this thing, and Lionel never caught the front in Oceanside.
[19:18] SPEAKER_03: So I think you do not need to be that good of a swimmer to win St.
[19:23] SPEAKER_03: George.
[19:24] SPEAKER_03: You know, yes, throw throw anology long or a Venice or an Eagle Man absolutely changes the outcome.
[19:30] SPEAKER_03: But St.
[19:31] SPEAKER_03: George, hell no.
[19:32] SPEAKER_00: 100%.
[19:33] SPEAKER_00: And look, like we saw that with Lionel.
[19:35] SPEAKER_00: I feel like Lionel was able to ride harder on that St.
[19:38] SPEAKER_00: George course.
[19:39] SPEAKER_00: Like if you look at Lionel, he was riding possessed, he was riding like a beast.
[19:43] SPEAKER_00: Certain courses mean that you can ride harder relative to the field if you're better on the bike and you can make up more time.
[19:49] SPEAKER_00: And I think we saw that with Lionel.
[19:50] SPEAKER_00: He just rode so, so hard, and he got rewarded for that.
[19:55] SPEAKER_00: Whereas he could ride that kind of same level of intensity and effort at Eagle Man in a few weeks, and he's not going to get rewarded as strongly.
[20:03] SPEAKER_00: Um, I just I just think that's how it works.
[20:05] SPEAKER_00: And if you if you look at um, you know, if you look at Sam Long, that's that's the exact same thing with him.
[20:11] SPEAKER_00: You just get rewarded for being the kind of person who goes off and and beasts it on the bike and the run at St.
[20:16] SPEAKER_00: George and the swim is a little less impactful.
[20:18] SPEAKER_00: Um, does does anyone have any hot takes on on that group from 11th to 15th, who I think are all really important big names in in long course trifle?
[20:26] SPEAKER_00: Max Newman obviously made his return in 11th, Magnus Ditliv was 12th, which we've already kind of covered on.
[20:31] SPEAKER_00: Cam Worth, who's doing every single race in the world this year, was 13th.
[20:34] SPEAKER_00: Trevor Foley was 14th, the future, and Matt Marquart, who oh we need to talk about Matt Marquart and his his 2015, uh 2025, because it's not how I would have seen it going in 15th.
[20:45] SPEAKER_00: Does anyone have any hot takes on on those boys in 11th through to 15th?
[20:50] SPEAKER_03: I don't know if it's a hot take.
[20:52] SPEAKER_03: You know, Trevor had a seat post issue with his bike, it slid down.
[20:56] SPEAKER_03: There's a funny photo he just posted where he's basically riding like a little kid's tricycle and it basically shot his legs and he couldn't run well.
[21:03] SPEAKER_03: Um, unfortunately.
[21:04] SPEAKER_03: He could have run faster than 122, though, 121 high.
[21:09] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you'll have to take that up with him, but I don't know.
[21:12] SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think uh, you know, he's had a tough start to the season, DNFing Texas and obviously not the outcome he wanted at St.
[21:17] SPEAKER_03: George, but well, going all the way back to Kona.
[21:20] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean he crashed out in Kona.
[21:22] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like just the crash at Kona.
[21:23] SPEAKER_01: I feel like he's had such a rough stretch of it since then.
[21:27] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's tough, right?
[21:28] SPEAKER_03: Like I'm I'm buddies with Trevor and Matt.
[21:31] SPEAKER_02: No, but listen, is Cam Worth just gonna get worse at every race?
[21:35] SPEAKER_02: I mean, like he's doing every single race, right?
[21:37] SPEAKER_02: Like, do you get better to a point and then you start getting worse?
[21:41] SPEAKER_02: Like, I just don't understand what what his season is gonna look like.
[21:44] SPEAKER_00: I think with Cam, he's got that cyclist mentality where they just train and race so much and they they don't hit every race at peak form.
[21:51] SPEAKER_00: So he just brings that into triathlon.
[21:53] SPEAKER_00: So I think what we're gonna see is there'll be certain races that he really targets and tapers for um and peaks for.
[22:00] SPEAKER_00: Then there'll be others that he just trains through and he treats them almost in his mind like a training day.
[22:04] SPEAKER_00: I think St.
[22:05] SPEAKER_00: George was definitely that for him, that he just took it as a training day.
[22:09] SPEAKER_00: He didn't really it probably doesn't taper for 70.3s.
[22:13] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think he would have tapered, like or very, very minimal.
[22:17] SPEAKER_00: And I I don't think he would be beat up about how it coming 13th.
[22:21] SPEAKER_00: I think he'll just want to get it right at Nice if I if I had to bet.
[22:24] SPEAKER_00: I don't think he cares about a single other day in the sport this year that much.
[22:28] SPEAKER_00: Like, but I think he cares 10 out of 10 about Nice, so he'll try and peak for that.
[22:31] SPEAKER_00: And I I I think we'll say a really good Camworth.
[22:34] SPEAKER_00: Like I I would be so shocked if he didn't finish inside the top 10, top eight at Nice.
[22:39] SPEAKER_00: But I think get used to this version of Camworth at almost every other race where it kind of looks like he's just out there at seven to eight out of ten all day.
[22:48] SPEAKER_00: Jack, do you have any info on Max Newman?
[22:51] SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, he got a new dog um not that long ago.
[22:54] SPEAKER_00: Um he had a dog that passed away last year and he got a new one.
[22:58] SPEAKER_00: Uh look, I talk like I talk to Max and his partner all the time, uh, and they are good friends, but we don't talk about Trithlon much uh because Max doesn't want to talk about it.
[23:08] SPEAKER_00: Uh Max is a private guy.
[23:11] SPEAKER_00: No one knows what Max is doing.
[23:12] SPEAKER_00: No one ever knows if Max is fit.
[23:14] SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure no one ever trains with Max.
[23:15] SPEAKER_00: Max does does things on his own.
[23:18] SPEAKER_00: Um he's uh he's the enigma, isn't he?
[23:20] SPEAKER_00: He's the he's the where's Wally of the Trithlon world.
[23:23] SPEAKER_00: It was just like it was just good to see him back racing.
[23:25] SPEAKER_00: Um he doesn't he doesn't feel like he's that much better than what he was at the end of last year, but he traveled in late from Europe.
[23:31] SPEAKER_00: You're never gonna race while doing that, I don't think.
[23:34] SPEAKER_00: Um I just think it's probably a good good step in the right direction to see him racing.
[23:38] SPEAKER_00: Again, a guy who only cares about Nice this year, he doesn't care about anything else.
[23:43] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and let's not forget 13, 14, 15, Werf, Foley, Marquis.
[23:47] SPEAKER_03: They all raced Iron Man, Texas two weeks ago.
[23:50] SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I don't care.
[23:51] SPEAKER_03: You can convince yourself you're you're fresh two weeks after an Iron Man.
[23:54] SPEAKER_03: Maybe Werf is, but I sure as hell no.
[23:57] SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm barely running two weeks after an Iron Man.
[23:59] SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I I don't think you're gonna go win a 70.3 St.
[24:03] SPEAKER_03: George if you're coming fresh off of an Iron Man two weeks earlier, unless you're a very, very special character, like maybe a Van Real or something.
[24:09] SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know, Foley had a career best swim.
[24:12] SPEAKER_03: So shout out, he swam 43 seconds behind Matthew Marquot, an Olympic trial swimmer.
[24:17] SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's that's pretty exceptional.
[24:18] SPEAKER_03: So he's as a young phenom who has won a major Iron Man Pro Series race and many other 70.3s here in North America, like his swim is his weakness, like Sam and Lionel.
[24:27] SPEAKER_03: And as a young guy in his early to mid-20s, making steps in the right direction is you know worth taking note of because he's a guy, at least as a a friend fan and American, you you think could win a world title at some point if he just sharpens that swim a little bit.
[24:44] SPEAKER_03: So that's cool to see, even though it wasn't his best day.
[24:46] SPEAKER_03: And then Matthew Marquot, you know, he's had this cramping issue um in his last three races.
[24:52] SPEAKER_03: Uh, I don't know what it is, I'm not sure he knows what it what it is, but you know, basically comes out of the water and he can't push power for a little while, and then seems like the Jets sort of turn on and then he's back to his normal self.
[25:01] SPEAKER_03: But it's it's certainly cost him, and he unfortunately doesn't have a world championship slot, and he's you know basically put up two poor scores for the pro series this year.
[25:09] SPEAKER_03: So it'll be interesting to see how he fares the rest of the season.
[25:12] SPEAKER_01: What do you guys think?
[25:12] SPEAKER_01: Can we talk can we just talk about how those three all coming off of Texas raced basically within like one minute of each other, like less than a minute of each other all day?
[25:23] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, crazy.
[25:24] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like that's just funny.
[25:26] SPEAKER_01: That's just it's like interesting to look at that though, those are the three coming off of Texas.
[25:30] SPEAKER_01: I don't think anyone ahead, I guess uh Matt Hansen did Texas, right?
[25:34] SPEAKER_01: Came like 10th at Texas and did okay.
[25:36] SPEAKER_01: But those three literally were within uh like a minute and less than a minute or all day.
[25:42] SPEAKER_01: Like their swim bike and run splits.
[25:45] SPEAKER_00: Wrapping up the men's race, Lionel Beast, it stopped doubting him.
[25:48] SPEAKER_00: He's he's he's here to stay in 2025, I think.
[25:51] SPEAKER_00: And seems like he's got his shit together.
[25:53] SPEAKER_00: I just seem like every time I watch him, I feel like he's he's less chaotic than what he's been in the past, and that's why we've seen two great performances at Oceanside and St.
[26:01] SPEAKER_00: George.
[26:01] SPEAKER_00: I fully expect him to just have a good year from here.
[26:03] SPEAKER_00: I would be a little worried about how we go over the full distance, but I think we're going to see this over middle distance all year from Lionel.
[26:09] SPEAKER_00: Sam Long was awesome.
[26:10] SPEAKER_00: Colin Such, what a beast coming third at a race like St.
[26:13] SPEAKER_00: George.
[26:13] SPEAKER_00: Shout out, Colin, well done, mate.
[26:15] SPEAKER_00: Um, and then Magnus didn't show up, uh, but I do think he'll get it right when it counts at the end of the year.
[26:21] SPEAKER_00: The women, Paula Finlay just did what she does in North American races.
[26:25] SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like if Paula is gonna be there in a North American race, and unless like a cat or a tailor shows up, if it's just the usual North American crew like St.
[26:35] SPEAKER_00: George was on the weekend, she's just gonna win it, isn't it?
[26:38] SPEAKER_00: And comfortable.
[26:38] SPEAKER_00: She doesn't she doesn't ever look like she's not gonna win it.
[26:42] SPEAKER_00: And and St.
[26:42] SPEAKER_00: George yesterday was just another example of Paula doing what Paula does.
[26:46] SPEAKER_01: Yes, but on it's it's uh there's not even that much to talk about.
[26:51] SPEAKER_01: Um I guess she was uh she wasn't winning the entire time.
[26:54] SPEAKER_01: It took her a little while to get to the front uh over Vittoria Lopez, who uh didn't even run.
[27:00] SPEAKER_01: But uh and there's also the the Chelsea storyline of maybe Chelsea could have uh provided a challenge, but just I guess is having trouble getting back into training and getting getting the fitness back up since getting sick before Texas.
[27:15] SPEAKER_01: But even still, I feel like Chelsea's probably in Iron Man shape a little bit.
[27:19] SPEAKER_01: Paula's in still doing T100 this year, and I mean this is just her course, really.
[27:25] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, not not much more to say about it.
[27:27] SPEAKER_01: It was almost never in doubt.
[27:29] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, in North America when Taylor Nibb hasn't been showing up to these 70.3s, it it seems like it's Paula's for the taking, obviously.
[27:36] SPEAKER_03: You know, we want to see a bit more competition, and there is some some very good women in the top ten that are battling it out for the you know, third, fourth, fifth, sixth position, but Paula's pretty much been dominating.
[27:48] SPEAKER_00: Greg, I've got a question for you.
[27:50] SPEAKER_00: Is this an insult to Paula?
[27:53] SPEAKER_00: Paula makes North American races boring on the women's side of the field.
[27:57] SPEAKER_00: Is that a compliment or an insult?
[28:00] SPEAKER_02: It's a compliment.
[28:01] SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think I've thought the same thing watching Taylor Nib race at times.
[28:06] SPEAKER_02: And like when you get athletes of this caliber who just like, oh, they're they're it's kind of a written story already.
[28:12] SPEAKER_02: It doesn't make the race a little less exciting, to be honest.
[28:15] SPEAKER_02: But I mean, she's probably happy about it.
[28:18] SPEAKER_02: So it it's it's definitely not an insult, uh, I would say it's a compliment.
[28:23] SPEAKER_00: Because it couldn't be more different to the men's race, really, is it where Lionel gets to the front, he's riding with Magnus, and Sam Long's coming up from behind, and it's exciting, and you're like, this is this is so fun to watch, and you don't fully expect Lionel to win.
[28:36] SPEAKER_00: It's not that you like don't think he could, it's just like, oh, Magnus is in the race.
[28:41] SPEAKER_00: But with the women's race, going into it, you're like, Paula will just win this, and then you're watching it play out, and sure, Victoria Lopez is in there, which we've got to touch on because that's crazy what happened there.
[28:51] SPEAKER_00: But you kind of just it's just like a matter of time.
[28:53] SPEAKER_00: Yep, Paula's exactly where we thought she would be.
[28:56] SPEAKER_00: Yep, she's gonna win this now.
[28:57] SPEAKER_00: How much is she gonna win this by?
[28:58] SPEAKER_00: Oh, four minutes, three minutes, yeah, somewhere like that makes sense.
[29:02] SPEAKER_00: Cool.
[29:02] SPEAKER_00: Like it's I don't I don't know if it's it sounds disrespectful to the field.
[29:07] SPEAKER_00: It's not meant to be.
[29:08] SPEAKER_00: It's just as a as someone watching the race, you kind of feel like you know what's gonna happen before the race, and Paula proves us right, which is yeah, I think it's a huge compliment and and it's a huge um bow in the in the cap for Paula Finlay.
[29:21] SPEAKER_00: But uh it's yeah, it's a little it's a little boring because of how how good she is and how consistent she is at these races.
[29:27] SPEAKER_00: Um let me touch on this Vittoria Lopez thing because she's obviously there in the front of the swim and then she's there at the front of the bike and she pulls out on the run, in my opinion, quite heavily influences how the race goes, but never plan to finish the run.
[29:42] SPEAKER_00: How do we feel about that?
[29:44] SPEAKER_03: Well, Jack, you know, I think there's a there's a big difference between influencing the race when you're planning to finish the race and actually racing for your best result, and influencing the race when you're planning to DNF.
[29:57] SPEAKER_03: Uh, I mean, speaking of Paula, right before the race, she was actually on the Pro Try-News podcast as a guest and kind of threw a shot at me, just said, Hey, do you think just in reality, changing the dynamics on the bike and then not featuring in the run is that fair to the other athletes?
[30:14] SPEAKER_03: And I mean, I, you know, uh what do you guys think of that?
[30:19] SPEAKER_02: Absolutely ridiculous.
[30:20] SPEAKER_01: No, it's un unfair.
[30:22] SPEAKER_01: Stop racing.
[30:23] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you should probably quit racing, dude, because you're just too good at biking.
[30:27] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like I should slow down and then swim in the bike, let Lionel, Sam, and Magnus, the boys, you know, I'll just ride mid-pack and then run for 25th place in all of them, right?
[30:36] SPEAKER_03: Like, so it's kind of silly.
[30:38] SPEAKER_03: It's like, of course, it's fair.
[30:39] SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm out there to compete for my best result, and I have many top tens and a few top fives and a couple podiums.
[30:45] SPEAKER_03: It's like, it's like, you know, it's only the podium club gets to battle for the podium and make the race exciting.
[30:50] SPEAKER_03: And I think it shows Paula's perspective is hey, you know, you want to be in control of your own destiny in these races, but in the men's field, there's so many dynamics and there are so many uncontrollables that get thrown at you throughout the day.
[31:03] SPEAKER_03: And I think she'll get a taste of that once she steps up to T100 and the world championship field this year.
[31:08] SPEAKER_00: I mean, Paula's been around for like 20 years.
[31:10] SPEAKER_00: I think she knows how it goes by now.
[31:11] SPEAKER_01: Mate, there's a saying, there's a saying that I live by sometimes, and uh I want to say to you, don't get bitter, get better.
[31:19] SPEAKER_00: You can tell Justin's been thinking about this from the moment he heard it.
[31:22] SPEAKER_00: Was she right, Justin?
[31:24] SPEAKER_00: Would you have run faster than the fastest girl on the weekend?
[31:26] SPEAKER_00: I think it was 119.
[31:27] SPEAKER_00: Would you have would you have run faster than that?
[31:31] SPEAKER_03: No, I wouldn't have.
[31:32] SPEAKER_03: Um she was so I I laughed at that one.
[31:36] SPEAKER_03: She she threw shots saying I was a slow runner, which like, yeah, like I gotta work on my run for sure.
[31:40] SPEAKER_03: But it was the fair, it was like it essentially was like, you know, don't don't show up because you're you're irrelevant and you're gonna influence the race.
[31:49] SPEAKER_01: I I've won cash multiple times getting outswam.
[31:52] SPEAKER_01: I I think by Paula for one, but getting outswam by the by the uh top female when it's a two-minute gap.
[32:00] SPEAKER_01: Uh so I I mean honestly, that probably helped, which not fair to the other guys, if you think about it.
[32:07] SPEAKER_00: I love the take from Paula.
[32:08] SPEAKER_00: Love that she just says it how she thinks it.
[32:10] SPEAKER_00: And Justin, she's right.
[32:11] SPEAKER_00: You've got to work on your run.
[32:12] SPEAKER_00: I I do think she's wrong though, in that like if I'm not I'm I didn't listen, so I'm not sure what her take was.
[32:17] SPEAKER_00: Whether was she saying that you shouldn't, or was she just asking the question?
[32:21] SPEAKER_00: Like, was she saying I like should he be in the race if it was directed at you?
[32:26] SPEAKER_00: Should he be allowed to race if he's gonna help the the swim pack and then help the bike and then just blow up and finish 15th?
[32:32] SPEAKER_03: Or was she saying that she The question was The question was, is it fair for an athlete like me to change the dynamics of the race and then not feature in the run?
[32:43] SPEAKER_03: But you could ask the same question about any strong swimmer or any strong biker that's not racing for a podium.
[32:49] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course that's fair.
[32:50] SPEAKER_00: No, no, that's a that's if that's a not that that doesn't even need to be talked about.
[32:53] SPEAKER_00: As long as you're out there, as long as you're in the race and you want to finish and you're trying to do your best, sure.
[32:59] SPEAKER_00: I think it gets into murky areas if it's like, let's say, for example, you and Greg were teammates and you never plan to run, and then you help Greg on the swim and then you let him sit 12 meters behind you on the bike and you never drop him, but then you pull out and the run, then for sure that's unfair.
[33:14] SPEAKER_00: But if you're in the race racing as an individual and you've got a strong swim bike, but you're a poor runner, that's that's just how it goes.
[33:20] SPEAKER_00: That's that's of course it's fair.
[33:22] SPEAKER_00: You can do whatever you want, influence the race however you want.
[33:25] SPEAKER_00: I think where it's iffy is what we saw in the women's race on the weekend with Vittoria Lopez, where she from what I gathered from her Instagram post, she had a stress, a stress, a bone stress reaction in um about six weeks ago, pre-oceanside, and she's just getting over that.
[33:41] SPEAKER_00: And then she pretty much came into the race with the intention to swim really hard, ride really hard, and then pull out.
[33:46] SPEAKER_00: That's how I interpret it.
[33:47] SPEAKER_00: Please correct me if that's wrong.
[33:49] SPEAKER_00: To me, that's the murky area.
[33:51] SPEAKER_00: I do not agree with that.
[33:53] SPEAKER_00: I recently had an athlete, I'll just say it, Jocelyn McCauley, who I coach, um, she's been she missed about eight months of running and she's been coming back from a run-related injury.
[34:02] SPEAKER_00: And we had a discussion like, is it fair of us to go to a race and swim as hard as we can, ride as hard as we can, and then just pull out on the run?
[34:10] SPEAKER_00: Or if you're going to be at the race, do you have to finish the race and try your best on the run?
[34:14] SPEAKER_00: And we both just concluded that it's it's if you're a moral person and and have ethics when it comes to racing, that you must not influence the race if you don't have intentions of finishing it.
[34:24] SPEAKER_00: And so I was pretty disappointed to see that from Vittoria on the weekend because I do think she influenced the race, being at the front of it for almost the entire um entire you know, swim bike.
[34:34] SPEAKER_00: And I I don't like that.
[34:37] SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's something we should encourage people going out there and hammering swim bikes and influencing it with no um intention to finish the run.
[34:45] SPEAKER_03: Kind of hard to police though.
[34:46] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you gotta fake it a little bit.
[34:48] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you can't you can't police it.
[34:50] SPEAKER_03: It's it's more of just like an athlete a an athlete honor code in a sense.
[34:54] SPEAKER_03: Like I think it's one of those things you if you want a good swim bike session, go train.
[34:59] SPEAKER_03: But you're racing a triathlon, not a swim bike event.
[35:02] SPEAKER_03: And it's just not fair to the other athletes um if you have no intention of finishing the race, in my opinion.
[35:07] SPEAKER_02: I'll say one thing about Victoria though, or Victoria, she has no C.
[35:11] SPEAKER_02: Um, she was kind of off the front the whole time by herself.
[35:14] SPEAKER_02: And when Paula caught her, she was riding behind Paula.
[35:17] SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, she's out there as a carrot, she's affecting the race, but like she wasn't pulling a pack, and she wasn't really pulling anyone in the swim, from what I gathered.
[35:26] SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
[35:26] SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously it can change depending on the race, but I don't think it played that big a role, but I still agree with you.
[35:34] SPEAKER_01: Well, it didn't happen to in this case, exactly.
[35:37] SPEAKER_01: No, you're right, you're right, exactly.
[35:38] SPEAKER_03: Like, I I you know, no, no shame to Victoria.
[35:41] SPEAKER_03: Like, and and maybe she did plan to finish the run.
[35:44] SPEAKER_03: Her Instagram post we we did translate.
[35:46] SPEAKER_03: We're not a hundred percent sure she wasn't planning to run.
[35:49] SPEAKER_03: Can you raise it?
[35:49] SPEAKER_03: She started to run.
[35:51] SPEAKER_03: Uh no, it's in Portuguese, Jack.
[35:53] SPEAKER_03: I can't.
[35:54] SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was watching the broadcast.
[35:56] SPEAKER_02: She was literally in the in the front, it's like a half mile in, and Paula like pulls up next to her, and then she's like just pulls off.
[36:02] SPEAKER_02: She's like, I'm done.
[36:04] SPEAKER_02: I I mean, it was pretty clear.
[36:06] SPEAKER_02: I was like, what just happened?
[36:07] SPEAKER_02: Like, she and then now that she we know she planned to you know not really run, it's it's pretty pretty clear in my opinion.
[36:13] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, if you have a stress reaction, like if you feel it at all, the right thing to do is to pull off the race and call it.
[36:19] SPEAKER_03: So maybe she maybe it was like, hey, I've a 10% chance I don't feel this thing, and if I don't, I'll finish.
[36:24] SPEAKER_03: But a 90% chance of DNFing, you know, that's kind of how I read it, but it it's hard to say in this specific case.
[36:30] SPEAKER_03: I think it's more about in the future, if you if you have a run injury, just don't race a triath horn.
[36:35] SPEAKER_01: I feel like you should be allowed to go for it though, on the 10% chance.
[36:40] SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's murky.
[36:42] SPEAKER_00: Because like it comes into your own morals, but yeah.
[36:45] SPEAKER_00: If you if you are uh in your mind, if you're a hundred percent in the mindset that you're going to try, then you can kind of understand it.
[36:53] SPEAKER_00: But if you go in knowing that you're gonna bail on the run and have the chance to impact the front of the race, that I don't think that's murky.
[37:00] SPEAKER_00: I think that's just I think we can all agree that we don't want to see that in the sport, but then it's tricky because what's really the difference between that and thinking, oh, I'm gonna go out and have a crack and then pulling out at the same point anyway.
[37:10] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it obviously is grey.
[37:12] SPEAKER_00: But just because she might might not have dragged someone along with her the whole time on the bike doesn't mean she influences, doesn't mean she's not influencing things because she still has a lead motorbike with her, she still has a camera with her, so that would be with another group, and it kind of influences things in little ways.
[37:27] SPEAKER_00: Maybe her being up the road, like you said, is a carrot for Paula, Greg.
[37:30] SPEAKER_00: So maybe she rides harder than if Vittoria isn't in the race.
[37:33] SPEAKER_00: Maybe, you know, maybe she did help things a little bit early on in the swim.
[37:37] SPEAKER_00: You know, you know how like swim dynamics are early, it can influence things.
[37:40] SPEAKER_00: So maybe it's not these massive influences, but even influencing a race like five, ten percent, uh, you know, that can that can be that can be quite big.
[37:50] SPEAKER_02: I think that's fair.
[37:51] SPEAKER_02: And can we talk about DNFing for a second?
[37:54] SPEAKER_02: And you know, pros DNF all the time, right?
[37:57] SPEAKER_02: I just I feel like it's pretty soft.
[38:00] SPEAKER_02: Like pros are showing up to races and not finishing the race because they don't feel good.
[38:06] SPEAKER_02: I just think that's like disrespectful to the other pros and everyone in the race.
[38:11] SPEAKER_02: There was age groupers walking their bikes up Snow Canyon in 95 degree heat, but like if you don't finish the race, I just think it's just a little bit disrespectful.
[38:20] SPEAKER_02: And like, you know, on the T100 circuit, we saw it a ton last year.
[38:23] SPEAKER_02: Guys are just like, they're wild cards to the race and they're not finishing.
[38:26] SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
[38:27] SPEAKER_02: I just like it doesn't sit well with me.
[38:29] SPEAKER_02: If you end up in the hospital or you're crazy injured, that's one thing in the race, but I just don't like seeing pros like make BS excuses for DNFing.
[38:38] SPEAKER_02: I'm just like, dude, come on, man, respect yourself and respect everyone else.
[38:42] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, all three of us have had we've all had days where we basically finish 30 minutes behind where we thought we would, and we walk jog an entire half marathon with our head between our legs, but we finished those races, and sometimes those build character.
[38:58] SPEAKER_03: You know, I had one of those days yesterday where I sat in a porta potty at mile three of the run for like three fucking minutes and thought I was gonna retire from the sport, and it got so hot in there I had to leave, and then I was like, well, I might as well finish and cheer on my amateur friends and just make sure that my last memory at 70.3 St.
[39:14] SPEAKER_03: George is a finish.
[39:16] SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I think once you DNF, do you guys think it makes it easier to do in the future?
[39:20] SPEAKER_03: Like, is it a learned behavior and then it then all of a sudden becomes an option for you?
[39:24] SPEAKER_03: 100%.
[39:25] SPEAKER_01: I mean it has to, but I'm of I'm of two minds about it though, because I think some some people are the death before DNF camp, which I'd say I I lean towards that for myself, but I try not to judge other people for not feeling so strongly about it.
[39:41] SPEAKER_01: I think there's only one the the one valid reason to DNF that I think sometimes people use like too often is you're a legitimate high-level professional and you have a lot of races kind of sandwiched together.
[39:56] SPEAKER_01: One of them is going really, really poorly, and you're like, okay, I just gotta take the L here because if I do finish this race, it actually will impact my prep for future races.
[40:07] SPEAKER_01: Like I think I'm doing some damage now and I'm costing myself money by finishing this race.
[40:12] SPEAKER_01: And whether or not that's true, and whether or not you can make that decision in the heat of a of an Iron Man or a 70.3 is a different story.
[40:20] SPEAKER_01: That's the only thing I I really see as valid.
[40:22] SPEAKER_01: But I feel like some people just don't feel as strongly, especially as professionals, about like the um the sentimental side of making sure you get to the finish no matter what.
[40:35] SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, I can get to the finish, but like I'm not making any money today.
[40:39] SPEAKER_01: This is terrible.
[40:39] SPEAKER_01: Why am I here?
[40:41] SPEAKER_01: I don't I'm trying not to like judge other pros too much because I feel like I used to for not being of the I'm either getting to the finish line or going out here on a stretcher sort of mindset.
[40:52] SPEAKER_00: There's there's magic to triathlon, right?
[40:54] SPEAKER_00: Where we have this culture where the professionals aren't like separate from the age groupers.
[41:00] SPEAKER_00: Whereas in most sports, particularly, you know, the big sports, think of NFL and soccer, the the professionals are so removed.
[41:08] SPEAKER_00: And because of this, we have this kind of set of rules for our professionals or like unwritten guidelines that are different from other sports.
[41:16] SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna step out and play NBA, but you've got something a little bit wrong with you, your coach isn't gonna let you, right?
[41:22] SPEAKER_00: They're just gonna, or for them for the most part, they're just gonna pick the best team that's available.
[41:27] SPEAKER_00: And you don't have to go out there and play if you can't.
[41:29] SPEAKER_00: It's like live to fight another day.
[41:31] SPEAKER_00: Whereas in triathlon, our professionals aren't fully seen as professionals, they're more seen as one of the community.
[41:36] SPEAKER_00: And so it's like we all go out there and we suffer together, right?
[41:39] SPEAKER_00: Like if you're having a bad day, suffer through it, finish, get those finish line like highs and celebrate with everyone and don't quit on yourself.
[41:46] SPEAKER_00: That's not what this sport's about.
[41:48] SPEAKER_00: But there is an element that it's also a professional sport.
[41:51] SPEAKER_00: And if you are having a bad day where you're gonna suffer and you're gonna come in 40, 50 minutes behind the lead, maybe even more, and it's gonna impact your training and your recovery and your next race.
[42:00] SPEAKER_00: Surely we do have to get a little bit more professional as a sport and realize that it's the smart thing to pull out.
[42:06] SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's not the magical thing.
[42:08] SPEAKER_00: It's not this like this, you know, it's not the essence of triathlon that we have and we love and we want to protect, but it is the professional, smart thing to do so that you can live to fight another day and go and do a little bit better at the other at your next race and make money at your next race.
[42:23] SPEAKER_00: And then there's also the the side of things where it's like, well, if you quit once, does it make quitting in training easier?
[42:28] SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, I've allowed my brain to quit here.
[42:31] SPEAKER_00: Will I then quit if a session gets hard?
[42:33] SPEAKER_00: If I'm not feeling good in a session, does it make it that little bit easier to switch off and quit?
[42:37] SPEAKER_00: And then because I've done it once, does doing it twice make it easier to do it a third time and a fourth time and a fifth time?
[42:42] SPEAKER_00: And before you know it, you've become a little bit soft and a bit of a quitter in your training and your racing.
[42:47] SPEAKER_00: There's so many like elements to this.
[42:49] SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's like as simple as yes, you should DNF if you're not feeling good, or no, you should never DNF.
[42:54] SPEAKER_00: You know, like it's so nuanced.
[42:57] SPEAKER_02: I agree.
[42:58] SPEAKER_02: And it is nuanced, but to me, like being a professional is finishing what you started.
[43:04] SPEAKER_02: And I I'm not in the full death to DNF or death or DNF camp, but I don't know.
[43:11] SPEAKER_02: I just think people do it a little too much.
[43:13] SPEAKER_01: And and and maybe you either die or you DNF.
[43:17] SPEAKER_01: You die or DNF.
[43:19] SPEAKER_02: You do not finish the race under any circumstances.
[43:21] SPEAKER_02: If you get a T100 wild card and you DNF, you should never get another one.
[43:26] SPEAKER_02: Like I'll stand there.
[43:27] SPEAKER_02: Like, no, like that, come on, man.
[43:30] SPEAKER_02: Like, uh there's people showing up.
[43:31] SPEAKER_02: Even if you crash or I mean there's exceptions, there's obviously other circumstances, but yeah, there's exceptions, but like, come on.
[43:38] SPEAKER_01: If you DNF because you felt bad.
[43:40] SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
[43:41] SPEAKER_03: Walk.
[43:41] SPEAKER_03: You can walk ever all ever all professional athletes can walk a half marathon.
[43:44] SPEAKER_03: Wow, it's an experience that is it'll shape you and shape you bones.
[43:49] SPEAKER_03: And it will make you hungry.
[43:51] SPEAKER_03: I woke up this morning and I trained for three hours.
[43:54] SPEAKER_03: Like, I was just like, I yesterday sucked so much walking 13 miles.
[44:00] SPEAKER_03: Miles and just feeling humiliated and being passed all day.
[44:02] SPEAKER_03: And it it it lights a fire under you.
[44:06] SPEAKER_03: Whereas if you DNF, you just feel like shit the next day and unmotivated, and you feel like a bag of shit, and you look back on it and you're like, man, why didn't I finish what I started?
[44:15] SPEAKER_03: That's what I was thinking about yesterday.
[44:16] SPEAKER_03: I was like, I will feel better tomorrow if I finish this race.
[44:19] SPEAKER_03: And so I don't even think it's like something you should do.
[44:21] SPEAKER_03: I think, like for for the sake of the sport, I think it's oftentimes when you feel bad, something you should do for exactly what you said, Jack.
[44:28] SPEAKER_03: You should do it because it's it trains the right behavior to suffer and push through things when it gets difficult and it shapes you mentally and makes you tougher.
[44:36] SPEAKER_00: I think that's the one big thing that I think of is that once you quit once, quitting becomes a habit.
[44:41] SPEAKER_00: Like quitting is the easiest thing to fall into the trap of doing.
[44:45] SPEAKER_00: And the the more you can stop yourself from quitting from anything in life, like literally anything.
[44:50] SPEAKER_00: So it could be your relationship where you're getting in a little bit of an argument, you're like, fuck, I just want to quit on this relationship.
[44:56] SPEAKER_00: Once you once you make that decision, you stop caring about it.
[44:59] SPEAKER_00: You stop investing in the in the confrontation you might have with your partner that could actually make your relationship stronger and better.
[45:04] SPEAKER_00: But you quit, you zone out, and then it becomes a thing that you do.
[45:07] SPEAKER_00: And then before you know it, your relationship's not as strong as it could be if you're having really productive conversations.
[45:12] SPEAKER_00: Same with your training.
[45:14] SPEAKER_00: Once you quit in sessions, it's so easy to continue quitting.
[45:17] SPEAKER_00: And I do think that's the case for racing.
[45:19] SPEAKER_00: And I do think it just floods your entire trifle on day-to-day life.
[45:23] SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's the big thing.
[45:25] SPEAKER_00: But also, like, my only question to you, Justin, is would you have been better off not suffering through that half marathon and then and then shaping up for Chattanooga this weekend?
[45:34] SPEAKER_00: Like you could you could go into Chattanooga and finish third and have a have a day that makes you money, but now because you did the the half marathon, you're probably gonna be a little bit too sore and banged up to do that.
[45:43] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I wasn't I'm not on the Chattanooga start list, Jack, but had I been, it would have been something that crossed my mind.
[45:49] SPEAKER_03: Um, I am racing T100 San Francisco in three weeks, and so I did start to think about okay, what's gonna be best for that, and I decided a you know, a moderate paced tempo run was needed.
[46:00] SPEAKER_03: Like I tapered and I didn't have much running in my legs, and so I wanted to do, you know, yeah, I wanted to get the run in for for the sake of training and for the sake of finishing my final race in St.
[46:09] SPEAKER_03: George.
[46:09] SPEAKER_03: It was never really an option to DNF.
[46:11] SPEAKER_03: Uh if I had a race next weekend, yeah, you know, it would have crossed my mind, but I probably still would have would have finished.
[46:17] SPEAKER_02: You're probably gonna DNF at no, yeah, he's probably gonna DNF though at T100 San Francisco now.
[46:24] SPEAKER_01: And then he's gonna be banned from this pole.
[46:26] SPEAKER_01: Are we gonna segue into Chelsea Sidaro here?
[46:29] SPEAKER_01: I feel like this is the the natural direction.
[46:33] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, leading up.
[46:34] SPEAKER_01: Were you guys not thinking about that?
[46:36] SPEAKER_02: Well, it crossed my mind because like she DNF'd, but I wasn't really trying to bring her up specifically.
[46:41] SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I mean it happened in the race with her, and um, it's happened before, but you know, she also got third at the world championships last year, so I don't really know what I have to say about it.
[46:50] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the camp I fall into.
[46:52] SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna question a champion like Chelsea, like she's an IMM world champion and came third at the Iron Man World Championships last year.
[46:58] SPEAKER_00: I'm I have nothing bad to say, but are you kind of thinking, Ari, that do you think that Chelsea's checked out a little bit?
[47:04] SPEAKER_00: Like, do you think that that she did this exact thing we talked about where she maybe quit once when she could have pushed through and now it's become a habit?
[47:11] SPEAKER_00: Is that what you're kind of insinuating?
[47:13] SPEAKER_01: Uh no, I actually think that Chelsea's probably more in the being a professional camp.
[47:18] SPEAKER_01: I think she's DNF to a fair few races over the last, let's say, three years since winning Kona.
[47:25] SPEAKER_01: Uh like I know like Roth comes to memory, uh, but she was having like serious GI issues.
[47:33] SPEAKER_01: Um Singapore and Yeah, Singapore.
[47:39] SPEAKER_01: But I guess you just gotta back her.
[47:41] SPEAKER_01: Like she did the whole Texas build, she got sick.
[47:45] SPEAKER_01: You can get if you're training really hard for a big Iron Man build, you can get really, really sick.
[47:52] SPEAKER_01: Uh so I'm not gonna, you know, like, oh, it's been it's been uh a couple weeks, she should have time to recover.
[47:58] SPEAKER_01: Like you can really mess yourself up if you've kind of gone over the red line in an Iron Man build.
[48:03] SPEAKER_01: Uh so I I'm gonna back her on that.
[48:05] SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you guys had any opinions, but we were just talking about DNFing so much I kind of No, I I just wish they showed it more.
[48:12] SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know, like you don't know what's happening also when you're like watching these races, and you know, we can talk about commentary all day, Iron Man commentary.
[48:20] SPEAKER_02: I mean it was Honestly, I just feel like it was not it was one of the worst ones I've seen.
[48:25] SPEAKER_02: Um I just it it's hard to follow, and yeah, the tracker was pretty off, it seemed like, and you know, they weren't really knowing the names of the athletes, so I don't know.
[48:36] SPEAKER_02: It's it can be tough to see.
[48:37] SPEAKER_02: That's the most ridiculous part to me.
[48:39] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I rewatched it today, and obviously I didn't see it yesterday live, but I just rewatched a little bit of the men's swim and early in the bike when I was actually featuring, and Seth Ryder came out of the water and they didn't know his name.
[48:50] SPEAKER_03: I mean, the disrespect.
[48:52] SPEAKER_01: He's an Olympic silver medalist, an Olympic medalist.
[48:54] SPEAKER_02: Like, no, no, no.
[48:55] SPEAKER_02: It wasn't even that they didn't know his name.
[48:57] SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
[48:58] SPEAKER_02: It was they like they they were saying Mark was leading, right?
[49:01] SPEAKER_02: And like Seth comes out and he's like the literally the first one out, and then the camera points to Mark and they're like, Oh, here's Mark leading the swim.
[49:08] SPEAKER_02: And Seth is like 30 seconds ahead, already at his bike, and like Mark Dubrich's leading the swim.
[49:12] SPEAKER_02: Like they had no idea what was going on, like they didn't understand what was happening in the freaking race.
[49:18] SPEAKER_02: Like, and then of course they didn't know Seth.
[49:20] SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was just like, dude, what is happening here?
[49:22] SPEAKER_02: This is crazy.
[49:23] SPEAKER_02: You can't even follow the race.
[49:26] SPEAKER_03: At one point, they said Greg was in the top 10, and you're not even racing, and you had a colored cap assigned to you, Greg, because you were on the start list before pulling out.
[49:36] SPEAKER_03: Instead of reassigning that colored cap, they hand that to the commentators and they say, That might be Greg.
[49:42] SPEAKER_03: I mean, I was like, Oh boy.
[49:45] SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, when I flatted, they had no idea who I was, and I I think they did.
[49:50] SPEAKER_03: I think they did.
[49:51] SPEAKER_03: No, they did not.
[49:52] SPEAKER_03: No, rewatch it.
[49:53] SPEAKER_03: They didn't know.
[49:54] SPEAKER_00: I had a heap of DMs in the game.
[49:57] SPEAKER_03: They have no idea who I am.
[49:58] SPEAKER_03: And they said that athlete, right?
[50:01] SPEAKER_03: They and and it's a little disappointing because it's like I'm in bright yellow on a felt, you know.
[50:06] SPEAKER_03: Danielle's a felt sponsored writer, she had no idea who I was, and it's basically the only names they knew were Lionel, Magnus, and Sam.
[50:13] SPEAKER_03: And so I just ask the broadcast team to do a little more homework, interview the top 20 pros for three minutes each before the races.
[50:22] SPEAKER_00: Just bring some people in.
[50:23] SPEAKER_00: Like, I think Rini is the pick of the Iron Man coverage, probably because she's just a little more invested in the sport at the moment, like stays up to date with it.
[50:31] SPEAKER_00: Like the vibe I get.
[50:32] SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to I wouldn't say Rinnie is in love with the sport and follows everything, say, like you guys do.
[50:41] SPEAKER_00: She she does follow it more than I think most of the other um commentators uh on the Iron Man's end of things, but like I don't want to make about anyone specifically.
[50:50] SPEAKER_00: I just think I think you need to have people who have their finger on the pulse and live it day to day.
[50:56] SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't even care who commentates races, really.
[50:58] SPEAKER_00: Like, I know people get really caught up in the personal opinions they have of someone, they like this person, they don't like this person.
[51:03] SPEAKER_00: I don't think it really matters.
[51:04] SPEAKER_00: You just want people who, when you're watching it, you know that they're living this day to day.
[51:09] SPEAKER_00: Like they're spending seven days a week following the sport.
[51:12] SPEAKER_00: It's it's their job.
[51:13] SPEAKER_00: They're getting paid thousands of dollars to do that commentary.
[51:16] SPEAKER_00: And you can tell they don't really follow the sport day to day.
[51:19] SPEAKER_00: That's the that's the for me, that's the disappointing thing.
[51:21] SPEAKER_00: I couldn't care less who who the commentators are.
[51:24] SPEAKER_00: I just want people who follow the sport and know who Colin Such is and and know who Justin Riale is and and know everyone in the race and and like can tell you some stories about them and what they've been doing recently and tell you about, and you know, when they're watching it, they can picture the last race that everyone did and how things are going week to week in Triathon.
[51:41] SPEAKER_00: And you know, like that, I think that's basic.
[51:43] SPEAKER_00: I don't even think that's asking too much, but I do think Iron Man are lacking that a little bit.
[51:48] SPEAKER_00: You know, like I don't I don't think it's about hating a particular person or being annoyed at a particular person.
[51:53] SPEAKER_00: You just want people who are following it.
[51:55] SPEAKER_01: It's not personal.
[51:57] SPEAKER_01: Well, and on that, Daniela, I I wouldn't consider as she doesn't strike me as somebody who has her finger on the pulse of the especially North American triathlon scene.
[52:06] SPEAKER_01: And then she also just had the worst audio quality.
[52:10] SPEAKER_01: Like she was just kind of dialed in from her kitchen.
[52:12] SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know if they asked her to asked her to do it last minute because it's like, oh, it's Daniela Reef, it's a big name everybody knows.
[52:18] SPEAKER_01: So people tuning into the broadcast are gonna be more engaged because they're listening to Daniela Reef commentate the race.
[52:24] SPEAKER_01: But the audio was just so I mean, it's a professional sporting broadcast.
[52:29] SPEAKER_01: I feel like that was uh that's like some pretty low-hanging fruit.
[52:33] SPEAKER_01: And of course that's that's minor compared to you know the not knowing the names of the athletes or what's going on or the ads or the tracker and the the whole GPS thing they're using that sucks even worse than before they implemented it.
[52:48] SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, but Daniela coming on and not knowing people doesn't worry me because it's just a little complimentary piece of it, whatever.
[52:54] SPEAKER_00: She's a champion, it's good to hear from her.
[52:56] SPEAKER_00: Like I don't that doesn't matter.
[52:58] SPEAKER_00: It's just the main team that do the three hours, you know, solo.
[53:01] SPEAKER_00: They're the ones who have to be on the polls.
[53:03] SPEAKER_00: You can like if say if Jan Fredino or Patrick Langer or Chris McCormack or Daniela Reef or whoever it is come in for 15 minutes and they don't know that much because they're living lives, living their life, and you know, they don't want to be fingers.
[53:17] SPEAKER_01: She was on the entire time.
[53:18] SPEAKER_00: I know, I know, I know.
[53:19] SPEAKER_01: I did go for a bike ride, but yeah, yeah.
[53:21] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but to Jack's point, like her role is the is the colour commentary, the side expert analysis on it.
[53:26] SPEAKER_03: And she's not a full-time main commentator has to do the research.
[53:29] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's not a full-time clearly that that's a bit of a last minute.
[53:32] SPEAKER_00: Like clearly, that's you know, you know what that what they're doing there.
[53:35] SPEAKER_00: I don't put that on Daniella.
[53:37] SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying that because let's not just talk about St.
[53:39] SPEAKER_00: George, let's talk about general stroke the whole year.
[53:41] SPEAKER_00: You just want the core team who are there doing it all the time to just be fully on the pulse so that if they have an expert come in who's can speak about dynamics and was a champion and they've got them in there because they're a champion, that the people who are running the ship are the ones who can make up for that because they've got the detailed knowledge because they're living it every day.
[54:00] SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway, let's move on from this to the most important uh thing to come out of the weekend.
[54:05] SPEAKER_00: Justin, I put up a story and I saw Iron Man's post of it, where you were riding in the lead with Magnus and Lionel, and then Lionel comes past you and you straight away dip in behind him to start drafting.
[54:18] SPEAKER_00: And that's when you have the big blowout of your real wheel and your race is over.
[54:23] SPEAKER_00: And I had, I counted, over 20 messages of people using things like the word karma, like karma for drafting, serves him right, the wheel sucker, things like this.
[54:33] SPEAKER_00: What's your what's your statement following that?
[54:35] SPEAKER_00: Because there's a lot of talk that you are a dirty drafting cheat.
[54:40] SPEAKER_03: You know, first of all, I just laughed at it.
[54:43] SPEAKER_03: Um I am not a dirty drafting cheat.
[54:46] SPEAKER_03: I'll say that.
[54:47] SPEAKER_03: Anyone who's ever raced with me knows that.
[54:49] SPEAKER_03: I'm one of the most honest racers and I've never had a drafting penalty.
[54:52] SPEAKER_03: And we also have Race Ranger.
[54:54] SPEAKER_03: It's literally impossible to draft.
[54:56] SPEAKER_03: Like, there are refs on you all day in every pro series race.
[55:00] SPEAKER_03: And if the light turns red and you don't back up, you do get a penalty.
[55:04] SPEAKER_03: There were a ton of penalties dished out yesterday.
[55:06] SPEAKER_03: So no one is cheating anymore.
[55:08] SPEAKER_03: Like, if there was ever cheating in in these races, it's absolutely not happening in the pro series races.
[55:13] SPEAKER_03: So I'll just say that as a matter of fact.
[55:15] SPEAKER_03: The second thing is like, I don't think I broke any rules.
[55:18] SPEAKER_03: Someone can correct me if I did, but when you are passed, the rule is that you have 25 seconds to drop out of the drafting zone.
[55:25] SPEAKER_03: I was absolutely on the limit.
[55:27] SPEAKER_03: And what you don't really see in that video is that Magnus is basically actively dropping me as Lionel passes me.
[55:32] SPEAKER_03: And so I was like, oh, thank God Lionel's coming by.
[55:36] SPEAKER_03: I might be able to just barely hang back, you know, legally from 12 to 15 meters on his wheel just long enough to be able to get back to Magnus.
[55:45] SPEAKER_03: And then maybe I can hold this train in the third position instead of the second position.
[55:48] SPEAKER_03: So that's what was going through my head as this all went down.
[55:50] SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, as soon as Lionel passed me, I was like, oh, I'm gonna use all 25 of these precious seconds as I can.
[55:56] SPEAKER_03: And so I got behind him and start drifting backwards slowly over the course of the 25 seconds I have.
[56:02] SPEAKER_03: And I think within five or six seconds my tire blew up and I pulled over.
[56:06] SPEAKER_03: But yeah, it looks, I think, worse than it is.
[56:09] SPEAKER_03: And also anyone that's ever raced knows that that rearward or forward facing camera angle makes athletes look way closer together than they are.
[56:17] SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, I will just say that I don't think I broke any rules, but yeah, I did, you know, slide left a couple of feet to make sure that I didn't get dropped immediately.
[56:26] SPEAKER_03: But I was certainly within the 20 seconds that I have to drop back.
[56:29] SPEAKER_03: There were refs on us, didn't get a warning, nobody said a word.
[56:32] SPEAKER_00: The drop back is the big rule, right?
[56:34] SPEAKER_00: That you didn't break.
[56:35] SPEAKER_00: The only question I have, and I don't know how it sits in the letter of the law, is you're supposed to stay right at all times unless passing.
[56:43] SPEAKER_00: And you didn't.
[56:43] SPEAKER_00: You come out into the middle of the road to sit on with Lionel as he's passing on the left-hand side.
[56:48] SPEAKER_00: Is that a like, do you think that's the rule that people think you broke?
[56:52] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I guess so.
[56:53] SPEAKER_03: You know, when you look at the road there, it's a little weird because we're on the left side of the road already, and there's a a shoulder to the left, a bike lane line divider, and then some cones on our right.
[57:03] SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, I slid left about three to four feet, I would say.
[57:08] SPEAKER_03: I don't think I moved to the left side of the road per se, but it was uh yeah, I guess it was a little shady looking.
[57:14] SPEAKER_03: If I if I broke a rule, I won't do it in the future.
[57:16] SPEAKER_03: Wait, were you gonna pass Magnus?
[57:18] unknown: No.
[57:19] SPEAKER_01: Is that your plan?
[57:20] SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
[57:20] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
[57:22] SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
[57:22] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, then that's uh a little bit shady.
[57:27] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like when somebody passes you, are you allowed to be in their draft zone as you drop back 25 to 20 to 12 meters?
[57:35] SPEAKER_00: I don't think you're allowed to move out to the left-hand side of the the road to do it.
[57:39] SPEAKER_00: I think you've got to hold the line on the right.
[57:41] SPEAKER_03: You gotta let them cut you off, and then you can stay in the draft zone.
[57:44] SPEAKER_03: I think so.
[57:45] SPEAKER_01: I don't think you're supposed to move out right, because it's the it's the the draft zone is technically 12 meters by five meters.
[57:51] SPEAKER_01: Is it five meters?
[57:52] SPEAKER_01: It's like a square.
[57:53] SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I don't know what the letter of the law says in terms of are you breaking a rule by moving left to get into Lionel's draft, but morally, that's what you're doing.
[58:04] SPEAKER_01: Morally, you're drafting, even if you're not breaking any rules.
[58:08] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, but let's I let's have a talk about triathlon morals here, because we all know, we've raced, there is things that happen in professional racing that or even age group racing for sure, it still happens, where you break rules, and everyone breaks rules that that no one really knows about.
[58:24] SPEAKER_00: Like this is one when someone passes you, yeah, you jump out and you get in their wheel and you hold it for as long as you can.
[58:29] SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people, if there's no one around, probably hold it for a minute instead of 45 seconds or 25 seconds, and that that happens all the time.
[58:36] SPEAKER_00: We all know that.
[58:36] SPEAKER_00: Obviously, there was a camera on you, Justin, so you've been caught doing it.
[58:39] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like it I I'll argue with that, Jack.
[58:41] SPEAKER_03: It doesn't happen.
[58:42] SPEAKER_03: Like nobody is I I I don't know.
[58:44] SPEAKER_03: This whole trial fund moral thing versus the rules, like if you're not breaking a rule, you're not doing anything wrong.
[58:51] SPEAKER_03: If I was breaking a rule by moving left, then yeah, should have gotten a two-minute penalty.
[58:56] SPEAKER_03: But a ref was looking at me and I didn't.
[58:58] SPEAKER_00: But there's there's other ones as well.
[59:00] SPEAKER_00: A very famous three-time Iron Man World champion said to me once the about the swim start of a swim.
[59:05] SPEAKER_00: If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying in triathlon, because everyone does it, everyone creeps forward.
[59:10] SPEAKER_00: So where the swim start line is, everyone just drifts forward, and then before you know it, the start line's actually 10 meters up ahead because everyone wants to start in front, and then the next person does the next person, and it goes like that.
[59:18] SPEAKER_00: There's lots of these little things that happen in triathlon, right?
[59:21] SPEAKER_03: That's true, that's a good example.
[59:23] SPEAKER_01: I'm also not even mad about it, Justin.
[59:26] SPEAKER_01: Like, again, it's the from my perspective, don't get bitter, get better.
[59:30] SPEAKER_01: Because when I'm up there, you better bet I'm taking Lionel's wheel for 25 seconds when he comes by.
[59:38] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's exactly, dude.
[59:40] SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't remember that moment.
[59:42] SPEAKER_03: All I remember is holy fuck, holy fuck, Magnus is dropping me.
[59:45] SPEAKER_03: Ow.
[59:45] SPEAKER_03: Oh my god, ow.
[59:47] SPEAKER_03: And like literally, I'm power were you pushing?
[59:50] SPEAKER_03: My legs are burning, and then I hear uh I did 402 aughts for five minutes over the climb the bridge to Magnus, and then I did I don't know, 340 to 350.
[1:00:01] SPEAKER_00: I think Lono Howard average payoff of the rice.
[1:00:03] SPEAKER_01: I was actually gonna ask that.
[1:00:06] SPEAKER_03: Uh 355.
[1:00:08] SPEAKER_03: I think he probably did like three 380 to get to Magnus um by himself to close the gap to me and Magnus, and then probably yeah, 350.
[1:00:21] SPEAKER_03: I bet it was closer to 360, yeah.
[1:00:23] SPEAKER_01: Average.
[1:00:24] SPEAKER_01: That's Strava, which always has a bit of attacks, and then his normalized was probably like Sam's normalized was probably 360 to go 90 seconds slower, but you know, Sam's a little bit bigger, and so he's gonna push a little bit more power.
[1:00:38] SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's probably in the mid 350s average.
[1:00:43] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they're big numbers.
[1:00:44] SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, all these guys have different CDA and they're different sizes and weights and stuff, but super strong riding.
[1:00:51] SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I mean, like when you're when you're on the limit, like anyone knows, when you're just like burying yourself, you're it's hard to think straight.
[1:00:57] SPEAKER_03: Like, that is when people get accidental drafting penalties, is when you're like your head is down, you're at mile 90 of Kona, you're looking out at the ocean and you're like dehydrated, and you're like, oh shit, the light turned red and I didn't pass, and your race is over.
[1:01:10] SPEAKER_03: Like, that's how it happens.
[1:01:11] SPEAKER_03: It's it's very rarely like anyone trying to cheat.
[1:01:15] SPEAKER_00: Last thing before we wrap it up, I put out a story yesterday on Instagram that like was what is different about Lionel in 2025 because he does look better than last year's version of him, and he seems he seems in a good spot.
[1:01:27] SPEAKER_00: So I just want each of you, just very quickly in 30 seconds, tell me your your theory on what's going on with Lionel and and how he got to this level of performance at St.
[1:01:36] SPEAKER_00: George on the weekend.
[1:01:38] SPEAKER_03: Uh Argo 1st.
[1:01:39] SPEAKER_03: I think he's coaching himself and he is in control of his own destiny.
[1:01:44] SPEAKER_02: Uh volume is overrated, so it's all about intensity.
[1:01:48] SPEAKER_02: You should do 100% intensity and train about six hours a week.
[1:01:51] SPEAKER_02: That's what Lionel's doing.
[1:01:53] SPEAKER_01: Ari.
[1:01:55] SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, I think he's uh blocking out the outside noise and he's confident in what he's doing.
[1:02:03] SPEAKER_01: And he's been doing it for like 15 years.
[1:02:05] SPEAKER_01: So uh that's that's the main thing.
[1:02:10] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I've said this to you in private, Ari.
[1:02:12] SPEAKER_00: I think Lionel had it all figured out in like 2015 and 2016, and then he went on this like he'll say that too.
[1:02:18] SPEAKER_01: He's probably said that on YouTube multiple times in the last couple months.
[1:02:21] SPEAKER_00: Oh, I haven't seen that.
[1:02:22] SPEAKER_00: Um and then he I've watched his videos, I've just must have forgotten, or maybe I've been subliminally like think this is my own idea, but it's actually his.
[1:02:30] SPEAKER_00: I think he had it together and figured it out, and he was one of the best in the world.
[1:02:33] SPEAKER_00: And then he went away from that in this search of trying to find the secret that he was missing or find the missing piece, and he he didn't realize that he actually had it figured out the whole time, and now he's come full circle and he seems to be doing very similar things to what he was almost a decade ago now that he knows works, and we're seeing that they still work for him, and he kind of went through this whole period of self-discover self-discovery that got him to the same place he already was, and it's really it's really interesting because I would have loved to have seen what Lionel could have achieved if in 2015 and 16 he just kept doing his own thing, kept doing what he knew what works for him and where his career would have been.
[1:03:08] SPEAKER_00: But great to see him back.
[1:03:10] SPEAKER_00: Uh, Justin, Greg, Ari, thank you so much for coming on and doing doing it.
[1:03:14] SPEAKER_00: It was a heap of fun.
[1:03:15] SPEAKER_00: Um, we do want to keep doing these throughout the year when there's big races, just do a little debrief afterwards, exactly like this, with this same crew.
[1:03:22] SPEAKER_00: Um so this was the first one.
[1:03:23] SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, they just get better and better from here.
[1:03:25] SPEAKER_00: Uh, boys, let's do it again soon.
[1:03:28] SPEAKER_02: Sounds good.
[1:03:29] SPEAKER_02: Later, mate.
[1:03:30] SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Jack.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.