# Our Real Thoughts On Imogen Simmond’s Doping Case + Big Lionel Sanders Updates.

An episode of [The Triathlon Hour](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1595443343), 26 Oct 2025, 1 h 04 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2640942/episodes/19698015-our-real-thoughts-on-imogen-simmond-s-doping-case-big-lionel-sanders-updates.mp3

Well, this is a big one. We break down everything about the news of Imogen Simmonds being found innocent in her doping case + give you our honest opinions and thoughts on it. We then give you some Lionel Sanders training & racing updates and discuss them. And we wrap up the show with our favourite segment of the week - reading your Spotify comments!! Lever: Use the code TTH for 20% off your Lever system Lever Pillar: Use the code TTH to get 15% off your first order with Pillar Performance at Pillar Performance or use The Feed for North American customers Nord VPN: Take advantage of a great deal with Nord VPN use the code triathlonhour or visit nordvpn.com/triathlonhour to get a huge discount in the 2 year plans PLUS 4 extra months! It is risk free with Nord's 30 days money back guarantee! Patreon: We put a lot of time & energy into bringing you this podcast every week and have done for 4 years now. If you appreciate what we do, we would love your support and you can do so for less than the cost of a coffee per week on Patreon - Patreon link

## Transcript

[0:28] SPEAKER_00: Yes, pretenders, we are back.
[0:30] SPEAKER_00: Another episode of the Triathon Hour in your ears.
[0:33] SPEAKER_00: We've got a little bit of a change up to the lineup this week.
[0:36] SPEAKER_00: So we'll start with the change.
[0:37] SPEAKER_00: Vicky's out.
[0:39] SPEAKER_00: Now, nothing sinister's gone on.
[0:40] SPEAKER_00: She's just so pregnant at the moment that when she was trying to get her microphone to work, she couldn't get close enough to it because her belly's that big.
[0:48] SPEAKER_00: So we've had to sub her out.
[0:49] SPEAKER_00: And instead, we've brought in the 220th ranked runner in the sport of long horse triathorn, Justin Riale.
[0:57] SPEAKER_04: Oh, thank you for the uh warm welcome, Jack.
[1:00] SPEAKER_04: It's an honor and a privilege to be back with you boys.
[1:03] SPEAKER_04: I've been listening from the sidelines for months now, wondering when I would get my big break back on the show.
[1:08] SPEAKER_04: And uh it happened to come with two hours' notice this morning.
[1:12] SPEAKER_00: And uh I say it every week, but I'll say it again.
[1:15] SPEAKER_00: He's the third best swimmer in triathlon, although that's dropping by the week, and he is the most opinionated man in triathlon, Greg Harper.
[1:22] SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me, Jack.
[1:24] SPEAKER_02: And I think I just gotta say fourth because Matt Hauser is obviously the best swimmer in triathlon.
[1:28] SPEAKER_00: We're gonna touch on that in the Spotify comments.
[1:30] SPEAKER_00: Lots on Matt Hauser to come.
[1:32] SPEAKER_00: And as always, the 20-time 70.3 champion, the second greatest triathlete to ever live, Sam Apo Appleton.
[1:40] SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Jack.
[1:41] SPEAKER_01: It's good to be here.
[1:42] SPEAKER_01: Good to be back.
[1:42] SPEAKER_01: I think first time recording with uh with Justin, right?
[1:45] SPEAKER_01: Is it?
[1:46] SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
[1:46] SPEAKER_01: Can't remember.
[1:47] SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, it's good to have Justin back from the dead and recording with us.
[1:51] SPEAKER_01: He's forgettable, so it's understandable.
[1:55] SPEAKER_00: Oh, there might be a lot of this between Justin and Greg today.
[1:58] SPEAKER_00: Um, boys, before we get into the serious stuff on today's episode, I just wanted to update you on the Camworth Strava yoga situation from last week.
[2:06] SPEAKER_00: So Cam messaged me during the week and he said, I can't believe I'm that insert naughty word kind of guy who would upload his yoga to Strava.
[2:16] SPEAKER_00: He claimed that his Apple Watch was uh directly uploading his yoga onto Strava, and this entire time he hasn't realized it.
[2:24] SPEAKER_00: So he has vowed to me that he will never let his Apple Watch upload his yoga again to Strava because he thinks that makes him a bit of a bit of a loser.
[2:32] SPEAKER_00: He used a different word though.
[2:34] SPEAKER_01: Why why is he using an Apple Watch as well?
[2:36] SPEAKER_01: That's like uh That's the watch that people that pretend they're into fitness get, right?
[2:40] SPEAKER_01: It's like uh Have you seen that meme where it's like brother, ooh, brother, what is that?
[2:47] SPEAKER_01: It's like when your fitness friend um brings an Apple Watch to the run and everyone else has got a garment and it's that guy going, Brother, yuck, what is that?
[2:59] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but then you meet Worthy and you realise he is kind of a bit of a he's a bit of a nerd.
[3:04] SPEAKER_00: Like he he does wear some questionable outfits.
[3:07] SPEAKER_00: So once you actually get to know him, an Apple Watch is right on brand, which is weird because he's an Olympian, fifth at the Iron Man World Championships, but yeah, it does fit, trust me.
[3:16] SPEAKER_00: Um I also wanted to touch base on the movie chat from last week because I've been thinking about it during the week.
[3:22] SPEAKER_00: Um Justin, you weren't here, but I know you listened.
[3:24] SPEAKER_00: Apo let us know that if once every fortnight he goes to the movies by himself to watch a movie, and it got me thinking.
[3:31] SPEAKER_00: I wanted to ask all of you boys if you met someone and they'd never watched a movie before and you had to recommend to them three movies to watch that you just thought they would love or would change their life or whatever it is, what movies would you recommend?
[3:45] SPEAKER_00: And we'll start with the movie man himself, the uh the potential serial killer, Sam Appleton.
[3:50] SPEAKER_01: This is a hard question, right?
[3:51] SPEAKER_01: Because I like I'm a bit of a movie buff.
[3:53] SPEAKER_01: I I listen to movie podcasts, I go to the movies a lot.
[3:55] SPEAKER_01: It's um kind of a hobby of mine, you could say.
[3:58] SPEAKER_01: But when you someone that's never seen a movie, right?
[4:03] SPEAKER_01: You don't want to just plunge them straight into the deep end.
[4:05] SPEAKER_01: I think you want to give them a taste of like what the genre or what movies can offer, right?
[4:10] SPEAKER_04: So you want to give them who's never seen a movie.
[4:15] SPEAKER_01: You want to give them a spectrum.
[4:17] SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not gonna send them to go in and see like a um something that only movie um fans, people that are deep in like myself would enjoy, right?
[4:26] SPEAKER_01: I'm just I'm just getting out all my snobbery right now, but I had to think about this.
[4:30] SPEAKER_01: And I think some of my favorite one of my favourite movies is Arrival.
[4:34] SPEAKER_01: Um that's a Denny Villanouv um picture, which I thought was really good, which I think is a great movie, which most people should see and enjoy.
[4:44] SPEAKER_01: Second, Inception by the man Christopher Nolan, um, you know, one of the greatest modern filmmakers of our time.
[4:53] SPEAKER_01: And third, I went with something a little bit lighter, and John Wick, because I just think that's a great classic action movie.
[5:00] SPEAKER_01: Anyone can enjoy a John Wick film.
[5:02] SPEAKER_01: So they're my three that I would recommend.
[5:05] SPEAKER_00: You know how I said that you're a psychopath if you run on the treadmill with no music?
[5:08] SPEAKER_00: And I even think that like movies and TV shows are a bit tough, but John Wick is a movie that you could watch while you're doing a treadmill run, I reckon.
[5:16] SPEAKER_00: So that would make the time go quickly.
[5:18] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a classic.
[5:19] SPEAKER_01: Or one, two, three, and four, all the four John Wick films are great.
[5:23] SPEAKER_01: And um if you haven't seen them, you should check them out.
[5:26] SPEAKER_02: I didn't know we were supposed to know the director of the films, so uh apologies on that, everyone.
[5:32] SPEAKER_02: Uh but my first one is uh Legally Blonde.
[5:37] SPEAKER_02: I just love this movie so much, and every time I've watched it, it's better, and it's just funny, lighthearted, a coming of age story.
[5:45] SPEAKER_02: Um, second one, forgetting Sarah Marshall.
[5:48] SPEAKER_02: This is my favorite movie of all time.
[5:51] SPEAKER_02: Jonah Hill is the greatest character to ever be in a movie in this.
[5:54] SPEAKER_02: And like I said, I've probably seen this movie like 30 times, and every time I crack up.
[5:58] SPEAKER_02: And in the same kind of genre, this is the end, just the same vibes.
[6:04] SPEAKER_02: It's just uh incredibly funny, and a lot of the same actors, and uh like Apo said, they're just anyone could watch them because they're you know, they're kind of all lighthearted movies and and and feel good movies.
[6:18] SPEAKER_02: And I feel like these days everyone tries to be all like dark and like uh blah blah blah.
[6:22] SPEAKER_02: I want a movie that I want to watch and I don't feel bad after, like the characters are bad.
[6:27] SPEAKER_02: So these these are good people, you know.
[6:29] SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna uh I went I went kind of broad range on this one.
[6:32] SPEAKER_04: So my first one is Dodgeball, also just for me the most quotable movie of my middle school childhood.
[6:40] SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, pretty much so every lawn.
[6:43] SPEAKER_04: The Lance Armstrong cameo in that movie is hilarious.
[6:46] SPEAKER_04: And he's good, actually.
[6:48] SPEAKER_04: One of the funniest scenes ever.
[6:50] SPEAKER_04: Where he's like trying to give up and he's at the bar.
[6:52] SPEAKER_04: And Lance Armstrong's like, yeah, you know, I had one ball removed and then went on to win the Tour de France five times, but I'm sure you're going through a rough patch.
[7:00] SPEAKER_04: It's like really funny.
[7:02] SPEAKER_04: Um the second movie, I went more Appleton territory.
[7:07] SPEAKER_04: I went with Interstellar.
[7:08] SPEAKER_04: I think quite similar categories Arrival and Interception definitely makes you tear up.
[7:12] SPEAKER_04: I watched it recently on a long flight and was uh yeah, pretty terrible.
[7:16] SPEAKER_04: And I love I love Matthew McConnell.
[7:18] SPEAKER_00: When he's smacking the bookshelf, but that is actually that he's like It's a whole movie, and they just with spoilers, he's just like I'm in a bookshelf at the end.
[7:26] SPEAKER_02: Like, this is fucking dumb.
[7:27] SPEAKER_00: We should have said this spoiler alert.
[7:29] SPEAKER_00: That does kind of ruin the entire movie.
[7:30] SPEAKER_03: Well, you just did it.
[7:32] SPEAKER_01: Spoiler alert for the 2010 movie Interstellar, 15 years ago.
[7:37] SPEAKER_04: I know.
[7:38] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but tell us more about forgetting Sarah Marshall and what it meant to you.
[7:46] SPEAKER_04: Uh lastly, I went with Parasite.
[7:48] SPEAKER_04: Uh movie won Best Picture.
[7:50] SPEAKER_04: I think it's Korean.
[7:51] SPEAKER_04: Alberton probably knows a lot more about it than I do.
[7:53] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is Korean.
[7:54] SPEAKER_01: It's really good.
[7:54] SPEAKER_04: Who's the director?
[7:55] SPEAKER_01: Boongjong ho.
[7:57] SPEAKER_02: Oh no, uh yes, he's he makes the good one.
[8:01] SPEAKER_02: How dare you, Greg.
[8:02] SPEAKER_00: It is a great movie though, Greg.
[8:04] SPEAKER_00: It was crazy.
[8:04] SPEAKER_02: It is, it is good.
[8:05] SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I've gone with the Shawshank Redemption.
[8:08] SPEAKER_00: I don't think that needs to be explained to anyone, one of the greatest movies of all time.
[8:11] SPEAKER_00: A feel good story, uh, a real character piece.
[8:14] SPEAKER_00: I also went with The Departed, which I don't know, the departed, the ending of The Departed might be the best ending to a movie of all time.
[8:22] SPEAKER_00: It's a it's again, it's another long character piece based on a true story, just a great movie.
[8:26] SPEAKER_00: Um, and the dark knight for me is my third one.
[8:29] SPEAKER_00: I love superhero movies, love the Marvel movies, love the Dark Knight trilogy, love the original Spider-Man's, but yeah, I think The Dark Knight is the best superhero movie of all time.
[8:38] SPEAKER_01: Just quickly, three movies by Christopher Nolan in there.
[8:41] SPEAKER_01: Inception, I had, Justin had Intercella, and you had The Dark Knight.
[8:45] SPEAKER_01: So uh Christopher Nolan, the favourite director on the podcast.
[8:50] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely no one expected us to be almost ten minutes into the podcast today and to hear Apo talking about how Christopher Nolan's the greatest director in movie history.
[9:00] SPEAKER_04: Appleton should do a triathlon hour spin-off series of just movie reviews.
[9:05] SPEAKER_00: It would actually be great.
[9:08] SPEAKER_01: Super niche.
[9:09] SPEAKER_01: Put it behind the Patreon.
[9:10] SPEAKER_00: Now, over the off season, when there's nothing going on in the triathlon world, we should start the podcast every week with Apo doing one movie review.
[9:18] SPEAKER_00: That would be awesome.
[9:20] SPEAKER_00: Okay, boys.
[9:21] SPEAKER_00: Uh, now I guess it's time to get into the serious stuff.
[9:23] SPEAKER_00: So we've got a bit coming up in today's episode.
[9:25] SPEAKER_00: We're gonna start the show talking about the Image and Simmons uh news.
[9:29] SPEAKER_00: We're gonna talk about Lionel Sanders.
[9:31] SPEAKER_00: He released a YouTube video this week and it made us want to do a little bit of a deep dive on him.
[9:35] SPEAKER_00: And then we're gonna round out the show as we always do by reading out your Spotify comments.
[9:40] SPEAKER_00: So um and just a forewarning: if you came to this podcast expecting there to be a podcast war and discussing the podcast wars that are going on, it's not happening.
[9:52] SPEAKER_00: It I hate to burst burst your bubble, but we don't want to be a part of that anymore.
[9:56] SPEAKER_00: Uh it was fun while it lasted, but we're officially putting an end to it here uh and we will not be discussing it.
[10:02] SPEAKER_00: So we're just gonna talk about the Imogen Simmons case for what it's worth, um, and talk about Imogen.
[10:07] SPEAKER_00: So I think it's probably a good thing to start with some facts.
[10:10] SPEAKER_00: So Imogen Simmons tested positive for ligandrel during an out-of-competition anti-doping control test on the 8th of December, 2024.
[10:19] SPEAKER_00: Imogen came fourth at the IMN 70.3 World Champs six days later, which was on December 14th, 2024.
[10:26] SPEAKER_00: And then throughout the results management process, which has been almost a year now, Imogen was able to establish that the presence of ligandrel in her sample was due to inadvertent contamination through intimate contact with her partner who was taking supplements containing the prohibited substance without her knowledge.
[10:44] SPEAKER_00: It was then further established that she bore no fault or negligence for the positive doping tests, and therefore no period of ineligibility has been imposed, and she is free to compete, effective immediately.
[10:57] SPEAKER_00: As the sample was collected out of competition, that's six days before the 70.3 world championships, there are no competitive results to disqualify from Imogen's records.
[11:06] SPEAKER_00: So that Iron Man 70.3 World Championships six days later, where she went on to finish fourth, that will stand as a result in Imogen's career.
[11:15] SPEAKER_00: Um I think also another probably important piece of the story is it is not the first time that a female athlete has tested positive for ligandroll and gotten off the charges by claiming it was as a result of the exchange of bodily fluids with her male partner.
[11:28] SPEAKER_00: Um canoeist Lawrence Vincent LePointe tested positive for ligandrel in 2019.
[11:34] SPEAKER_00: And after a pretty similarly long investigation, the International Canoe Federation accepted LePointe's evidence that her ex-boyfriend had ingested ligandrel and her positive test result was due to bodily fluid exchange between them.
[11:47] SPEAKER_00: Her suspension was then uplifted.
[11:49] SPEAKER_00: And then again in March 2024, curla Brianne Harris returned a positive A and B sample for ligandrel, just like Imogen Simmons did.
[11:57] SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, just like Imogen Harris won her appeal at the Court of Arbitration for Sport, arguing unknown ingestion due to bodily contact with her husband.
[12:05] SPEAKER_00: And then she returned to the sport uh a little earlier this year.
[12:09] SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's that's pretty much all the facts of the Imogen Simmons case as they stand.
[12:14] SPEAKER_00: So, boys, Imogen Simmons is officially innocent.
[12:17] SPEAKER_00: What do we make of this announcement?
[12:18] SPEAKER_01: I think one big question for me is how do they prove the the innocence or you know, whether it was intentional or whether it was accidental?
[12:27] SPEAKER_01: Do you know, Jack?
[12:28] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's there's multiple facets to it.
[12:30] SPEAKER_00: So when Imogen Simmons got in touch with her legal team, they went about a process to try and prove Imogen's innocence, and part of that was things like they did a hair sample of Imogen's partner at the time, and his hair sample came back, uh returned a positive finding for Legandrol.
[12:47] SPEAKER_00: They then also, I believe, I'm I'm I'm not fully certain on this, but I believe they were able to find or or prove the supplement or product that he was taking that had the presence of ligandrol in it.
[13:01] SPEAKER_00: And so essentially what they were able to prove to the Court of Arbitration for Sport was that Imogen's partner was using ligandroll or a product conj containing ligandrol at the time, and that it is feasible based on past precedent, which we've just described them with the other two examples that have happened in in professional female athletes, that it can be transferred via your sexual partner with the body bodily fluid exchange.
[13:27] SPEAKER_00: So I guess proving that those two things well one of those things can happen, and one of those things was happening was how they went about proving it.
[13:36] SPEAKER_00: Um any other details, I'm not sure, but I know that's part of it and probably the main part of it.
[13:42] SPEAKER_04: I believe it's you know, she was pretty much guilty until she could prove her innocence in this case, unlike a murder trial where you're innocent until proven guilty.
[13:50] SPEAKER_04: Like when you test positive A and B sample, you have to go into these things and have enough evidence, not just possibility, but evidence that it was not due to ingestion.
[14:02] SPEAKER_04: And I'm not a PhD research scientist, none of us are, but I imagine there are certain metabolite testing, whether it's hair versus urine versus blood or however it was done, that effectively show that she did not ingest this stuff.
[14:15] SPEAKER_04: And I don't think she would be innocent.
[14:18] SPEAKER_04: Um, and that she would have come across fully innocent if she wasn't able to prove that uh that she never took it or ingested it, and that it wasn't from only her ex-boyfriend at this point, who um, you know, following this situation, they're no longer together as of today.
[14:35] SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's entirely true, Justin.
[14:37] SPEAKER_00: I don't think they can fully differentiate where the ligandrol came from.
[14:42] SPEAKER_00: It's just that they can prove that the boyfriend was taking it or had it in his system, and maybe even the way he got it in his system, probably with his statements, I believe, at the time, probably with him um admitting that that he had done it, and therefore Imogen also taking to the Court of Arbitration for Sport that she vehemently denied that she was taking it, and that the only possible way it could have got into her system was was via the bodily fluid of her ex-boyfriend.
[15:10] SPEAKER_00: So I don't think they can like they can't necessarily like detect where it came from, they can detect the amount, and the thing with Imogen's case that it during the test it was a very small amount.
[15:20] SPEAKER_00: It was a metabolite of lecandroll the equivalent in in their eyes to a grain of salt in an Olympic swimming pool was found in her blood.
[15:29] SPEAKER_00: So it's a very, very small amount, a trace amount, and that's why they can more easily prove hey, this this trace amount, the reason it's so small, is because I wasn't taking it where it would be a larger amount.
[15:41] SPEAKER_00: It was because it was it was from my boyfriend.
[15:44] SPEAKER_02: Well, I'll let me ask a question to the group, and honestly, I don't want to get myself in trouble here, but if you're an athlete at the top of a sport and you might push gray areas, say, hey, I'm gonna do some substance, wouldn't you already have a fallback plan as if you test positive?
[16:00] SPEAKER_02: Like if you're a professional, you do everything so good, you're at the top of the sport, you would be professional in this too, right?
[16:07] SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, I'm gonna have an excuse lined up.
[16:09] SPEAKER_02: Not saying that's the case here, but it's like it's just really hard for us.
[16:12] SPEAKER_02: Like Justin said, we don't have all the information.
[16:15] SPEAKER_02: But look, if I was gonna do drugs, I would do a drug that I know has gotten off in the past, right?
[16:23] SPEAKER_02: And I would have a plan to say if I I tested positive, so maybe you could get cleared.
[16:27] SPEAKER_02: And that's all I'm saying.
[16:28] SPEAKER_02: Like, we don't have all the information.
[16:30] SPEAKER_02: Imogen's cleared and that's great.
[16:32] SPEAKER_02: But you know, we just sit here on the other side of it and you know, sometimes I don't really know what the the real truth is.
[16:39] SPEAKER_01: I just think it's it's also crazy how long the process takes, right?
[16:42] SPEAKER_01: Like if the boyfriend was able to get his hair samples tested and the supplements tested, and they did come back as um, you know, positive for like Andrel, why has it taken because what this came out in December, so it's been ten months.
[16:58] SPEAKER_01: Like surely they test for those things immediately and get the results within a couple of days, right?
[17:03] SPEAKER_01: Like I mean, obviously that's a lot of um, you know, stuff behind the scenes and um a lot of stuff like Justin said that we don't really know.
[17:12] SPEAKER_01: We just kind of sit behind a microphone and think, but yeah, ten months seems like a long time for it to come out and clear Imogen's name.
[17:18] SPEAKER_01: I just wonder why it takes that long.
[17:20] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a big issue in this entire appeals process.
[17:24] SPEAKER_00: It takes too long because it's been the better part of 12 months with people thinking, or you know, maybe whatever it is, whether it's the minority or majority of people thinking that Imogen is guilty of doping.
[17:36] SPEAKER_00: And I think that time, the time for that to settle in, it's just not it's just not the best part of this process.
[17:42] SPEAKER_00: And and I do think that the anti-doping authorities need to sort it out because it's not just this isn't unique to Imogen's case, those other two cases I listed before, they took forever as well.
[17:51] SPEAKER_00: Shana Jack's case took forever.
[17:54] SPEAKER_00: Like every doping case takes forever.
[17:56] SPEAKER_00: It does it, like it doesn't, it almost doesn't matter what sport it is, what drug it is, it always just takes too long.
[18:01] SPEAKER_00: And I I think, you know, for the benefit of athletes, it would be good if we could kind of streamline this process and and figure out a way to create a more streamlined process because it's just a long time to be in purgatory for the athlete in this case, Imogen.
[18:13] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean it's if it's anything like the criminal justice system in the United States, you know, it's quite similar.
[18:19] SPEAKER_04: Uh defense attorneys are constantly trying to string along the process, push out court dates, appeal every decision that gets made along the way.
[18:28] SPEAKER_04: My understanding is like it's it's operated like a court.
[18:30] SPEAKER_04: You know, you've got sort of like the prosecuting side that tested the positive, and then you've got the athlete with all the representation.
[18:35] SPEAKER_04: There's in-person stuff, there's, you know, probably an infinite number of Zoom meetings and appeals and and deadlines.
[18:42] SPEAKER_04: And then they just have to be 100% sure that they get it right.
[18:44] SPEAKER_04: So I'm I'm kind of like, yeah, does is 10 months too long?
[18:47] SPEAKER_04: Yes.
[18:47] SPEAKER_04: But should it be like a week or two?
[18:49] SPEAKER_04: You know, no, I think you you increase the likelihood of a mistake and you need to make sure that the process plays out the way it the way it's supposed to.
[18:55] SPEAKER_04: Again, sitting behind a microphone not knowing that much about it, um, could it have been a bit more efficient?
[19:01] SPEAKER_04: I I'm sure it could have been.
[19:02] SPEAKER_04: But you also don't want them to get it wrong.
[19:04] SPEAKER_04: And if if it takes 10 months to prove your innocence uh versus two weeks to be assumed guilty, uh I think Imogen would would take the time that it takes to let the process play out a bit.
[19:16] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's a good point, Justin, and a salient point that Imogen Simmons is innocent.
[19:21] SPEAKER_00: That that is a fact now.
[19:22] SPEAKER_00: Imogen Simmons is innocent.
[19:24] SPEAKER_00: She did not do, according to the the Court of Arbitration for Sport, and that say is final.
[19:30] SPEAKER_00: So um no matter what you think, that's the reality of the situation.
[19:33] SPEAKER_00: And I think it leads us on to our next topic of conversation with this case.
[19:38] SPEAKER_00: What do we make of the boyfriend's role in this?
[19:41] SPEAKER_00: What do we think?
[19:41] SPEAKER_00: Is does is this is this ruling now pretty much officially saying, well, Imogen has no fault, so the fault lies on the boyfriend?
[19:49] SPEAKER_01: It's hard to say, right?
[19:51] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think Imogen has a responsibility and the boyfriend as well to know Imogen's one of the best in the world, and um she was racing at the top echelon.
[20:03] SPEAKER_01: She should Dad have this mistake, it seems like a little bit of an oversight, and I'm sure she won't make it again, but it's hard to point the finger, I think, at the boyfriend as well, because he's just, you know, he's just doing his thing.
[20:15] SPEAKER_01: You wanted, you know, took some like Androl for his, you know, beach muscles or whatever.
[20:20] SPEAKER_01: I don't even know the reason you'd take it, but um it's hard to point the blame at him.
[20:25] SPEAKER_01: Um they probably don't know that it can be exchanged through bodily fluids as well.
[20:30] SPEAKER_01: So he might have been taking it and thinking that it's all fine.
[20:34] SPEAKER_01: I think it's just a mistake and it's just hard to point the finger at people.
[20:37] SPEAKER_04: I mean, I don't know this guy and I don't know Imogen, but I think you know it's pretty negligent of him.
[20:43] SPEAKER_04: Like he's dating the top professional athlete.
[20:45] SPEAKER_04: You don't have drugs in the house.
[20:47] SPEAKER_04: Like, just like on fun on principle.
[20:50] SPEAKER_04: Like she's competing for a top five at worlds, you know, competitive at the top of T100.
[20:56] SPEAKER_04: Like, don't have steroids in your damn house.
[20:59] SPEAKER_04: I think it's just silly.
[21:00] SPEAKER_04: Like, I think that guy is definitely at fault, and maybe there's a reason he is now her ex-boyfriend.
[21:05] SPEAKER_04: I don't know any personal trauma between them, but I don't know.
[21:09] SPEAKER_04: I uh I think it's a bad look on her, and I don't really fault her now that her innocence has been proven.
[21:14] SPEAKER_00: Just for the sake of full kind of trying to get it right, Sam's not steroids as well, Justin.
[21:19] SPEAKER_00: We don't want to say anything that's wrong with this because it is kind of a touchy situation where you don't like no, there's no winners in this.
[21:25] SPEAKER_00: Like the boyfriend or ex-boyfriend, he doesn't win from this.
[21:28] SPEAKER_00: Like he's lost his relationship with very likely because of this.
[21:32] SPEAKER_00: And I met them, they were a happy couple.
[21:34] SPEAKER_00: Like they're actually like, I know this might sound crazy.
[21:37] SPEAKER_00: I thought they were a good couple.
[21:39] SPEAKER_00: They always were the two people having the most fun at T100 events, every single time.
[21:43] SPEAKER_00: Like that's what they were known for.
[21:44] SPEAKER_00: They were a fun couple, and so like the boyfriend hasn't won from this, Imogen hasn't won from this.
[21:49] SPEAKER_00: It's just like a complete lose lose situation.
[21:52] SPEAKER_00: And I think you're right, Apple.
[21:53] SPEAKER_00: It's like so hard to pin fault on anyone, it's just a fucking shit situation all around.
[21:57] SPEAKER_00: But you're also right, Justin.
[21:59] SPEAKER_00: If you're dating Like one of the best athletes in the world, and and you're taking some some stuff behind her back, that's not right either.
[22:07] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like take just a slightly more high-profile couple in the sport.
[22:11] SPEAKER_04: Imagine Reese Barkley is taking Legendrol right now.
[22:14] SPEAKER_04: Like, we would all call him an idiot and tell him to stop doing that, right?
[22:18] SPEAKER_04: Even associating your spouse with that in that vicinity is a risk you're taking for their career.
[22:26] SPEAKER_04: And it's selfish, to be honest.
[22:27] SPEAKER_00: Reese definitely isn't though.
[22:28] SPEAKER_00: His arms are so skinny.
[22:30] SPEAKER_04: No, of course not.
[22:31] SPEAKER_02: Of course not.
[22:32] SPEAKER_02: Dude, he's a sprint, he's a fast 50 freestyler, man.
[22:36] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he was.
[22:37] SPEAKER_00: He's not anymore.
[22:38] SPEAKER_00: Have you seen how skinny he's got?
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[24:10] SPEAKER_02: And and this is like, you know, Jack broke the story, right?
[24:13] SPEAKER_02: And he he got some flack for it, right?
[24:16] SPEAKER_02: What would happen if like Jack didn't announce it, right?
[24:19] SPEAKER_02: That that was kind of my take on this.
[24:21] SPEAKER_02: You know, would the ITA have come out and said she was suspended or not?
[24:26] SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, maybe Imogen would have said, Oh, I'm I'm injured this year, right?
[24:29] SPEAKER_02: While there's an investigation going on, and then she's cleared and she comes back.
[24:33] SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that happens, but it just gets me thinking, like, I'm kind of glad that, you know, if you fail a test, it should get out there.
[24:39] SPEAKER_02: You know, you did make a mistake in some regard, right?
[24:42] SPEAKER_02: She did fail a test.
[24:43] SPEAKER_02: And like hopefully now that she's innocent, everyone, you know, gives her her second chance and sponsors her back on board.
[24:48] SPEAKER_02: But I just kind of makes you question if that that happens in the sport, um, you know, where people are provisionally suspended.
[24:56] SPEAKER_02: And if the information doesn't, you know, get out there, then maybe no one will ever even know in the end.
[25:01] SPEAKER_02: And that that that kind of scares like you're not talking about being professional things that scare you.
[25:05] SPEAKER_02: That kind of scares me, right?
[25:07] SPEAKER_02: Like, I I feel like we should all know that information, especially as someone who's trying to get up to that, people trying to climb the ladder.
[25:13] SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh, what?
[25:14] SPEAKER_02: These people can fail a drug test and no one know?
[25:17] SPEAKER_02: Is that is that actually happening?
[25:18] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Jack, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you hadn't broken the story, wouldn't this have still been made public last week that she had a negative positive A and B sample, but in fact was found innocent?
[25:30] SPEAKER_00: There's a few things to touch on here.
[25:31] SPEAKER_00: I'll try and like do them piece by piece.
[25:33] SPEAKER_00: But um, starting with Greg's, I have been told in the past by someone who was involved in a case in triathlon, like a very high-up person, that there was a situation like this before I was in media in triathlon, uh, quite a way before, uh, of an athlete having a positive drug test, it going through the court of arbitration for sport, them getting off and it never saw the light of day.
[25:56] SPEAKER_00: No one, no one knows about it to this day.
[25:58] SPEAKER_00: And that was a big part of why because I sat on this, like when I found out about this, it was actually really hard because I knew I knew that it was going to be shitty for Imogen and I hate it because I really liked Imogen.
[26:11] SPEAKER_00: Um, I still do, like she probably hates me, fair enough.
[26:13] SPEAKER_00: But I battled with it because I felt there was like this fight between trying to do what was right for the sport and for everyone involved in the sport and Imogen, and like it was a really hard kind of moral decision.
[26:27] SPEAKER_00: But like this story that I know to be true because of who told me it, and if I if I could say who, you'd you would you would 100% know that this person doesn't lie about that kind of thing because of their position.
[26:38] SPEAKER_00: And so I didn't want it to be brushed under the carpet, and I had to remove Imogen from it.
[26:43] SPEAKER_00: I was like, Well, I can't let my personal feelings for Imogen get in the way of me doing what's right for the public here or for the sport because it's not a good thing for something to potentially get brushed under the carpet, whether whether they're innocent or guilty, you just want the facts out there, and I do think one of the good things about this case is it has been transparent, like there's shit elements to it, you know, like the part of the story where Imogen has now been found innocent and she's had to go through this sucks.
[27:10] SPEAKER_00: It it really, really sucks, and it's the worst part of the story.
[27:14] SPEAKER_00: But everyone knows what's happened, like everyone in our sport knows exactly what's happened now, and I ultimately think that's a good thing for the sport, and actually for Imogen as well.
[27:24] SPEAKER_00: I do believe because of the level of transparency, people will move on from this.
[27:28] SPEAKER_00: And I do think that apart from this year, Imogen's career will not be affected too much long term.
[27:34] SPEAKER_00: Like, I think we'll look back in five to ten years and go, yeah, look, it had a short-term impact, but ultimately it didn't impact Imogen too much.
[27:43] SPEAKER_00: Um and then to touch on your point, Justin, it should be made public.
[27:47] SPEAKER_00: Now, there's clauses in both the Iron Man anti-doping regulations or or rules and the ITA's public disclosure rules, which are quite grey.
[27:56] SPEAKER_00: Like it doesn't like straight out say when and how.
[28:00] SPEAKER_00: It it does say the ITA do say that they should, and Iron Man say that they will release it.
[28:05] SPEAKER_00: So it would have came out.
[28:06] SPEAKER_00: And chances are it would have actually came out earlier, or at least it should have.
[28:10] SPEAKER_00: The latest it would have made it is to this point because Iron Man's rules would have stated that it had to be disclosed now, and we would have found out that she had a positive A and B sample and the process that's taken.
[28:21] SPEAKER_00: My suspicion is that it would have been followed to a T and released earlier anyway.
[28:26] SPEAKER_00: We'll never know because it it got released by the ITA and and and when we reported it when it did.
[28:31] SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I I mean, all of that aside, the takeaway point from this is that Imogen's now innocent, and I I think the only way forward is just to move on.
[28:40] SPEAKER_00: Like, I is there anything else to talk about here, or is it just like put this behind us?
[28:45] SPEAKER_00: Imogen's gone through this, she's proven her innocence, and and we move forward from now, and and we look forward to having her race next.
[28:52] SPEAKER_04: Yep, agreed.
[28:53] SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's like any other trial.
[28:55] SPEAKER_04: You get accused of a crime you didn't do, and if it happened to you and you were proven innocent over the course of 10 months in in a court, you would want the public to believe your innocence.
[29:05] SPEAKER_04: And not everyone will.
[29:06] SPEAKER_04: Though, you know, people still think OJ did it, but you know, the Australians are like, what are you talking about?
[29:16] SPEAKER_02: I don't know where that was going.
[29:17] SPEAKER_02: OJ's innocent.
[29:18] SPEAKER_00: That case actually has huge relevance to this podcast because that's all about if the glove fits, and we know about the gloves intro apple.
[29:27] SPEAKER_02: But yeah, we got to welcome back Imogen with open arms for sure.
[29:30] SPEAKER_02: And they'll there'll probably be some haters, but like Jack said, I feel like they'll fade.
[29:34] SPEAKER_02: You know, like if Imogen races well and she just continues to be, you know, the likable person that she is, I think she'll she'll come out uh in the end and uh ahead.
[29:42] SPEAKER_02: I'm actually curious to think if she'll like try to get on the start line like pretty soon.
[29:46] SPEAKER_02: Um you know, she doesn't she have a T100 contract too.
[29:49] SPEAKER_02: I don't know what the like at the beginning of the year, right?
[29:52] SPEAKER_02: So like is she gonna come back and try to race at the end of the year?
[29:54] SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm sure she probably wasn't training her best, you know, with all this the stress of this happening too.
[29:59] SPEAKER_02: So yeah, just curious to see um when she's back and yeah, look forward to it, honestly.
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[31:17] SPEAKER_00: Uh, as promised at the start of the show, our second topic for the day.
[31:21] SPEAKER_00: It's kind of going from something really serious to something a little less serious, but very fun for us.
[31:26] SPEAKER_00: Lionel Sanders.
[31:28] SPEAKER_00: We love talking about him.
[31:29] SPEAKER_00: I think he's everyone's favorite triathlete.
[31:31] SPEAKER_00: He announced on a YouTube video that he's out of 70.3 worlds, he was going to do Augusta 70.3, he's out of that.
[31:37] SPEAKER_00: He's not doing Iron Man Arizona as a lot of people suspected, but instead, he's going to do one more race for the year at Indian Wells 70.3.
[31:44] SPEAKER_00: He also kind of announced that from this point forward in his career, he really wants to focus on Iron Man.
[31:50] SPEAKER_00: That is his major focus.
[31:52] SPEAKER_00: He talked about having done a lot of easy aerobic training to build a base of resilience and to come back in a way that he won't break down quickly and set himself up for one last big crack over the next year or two at winning the big races in our sport.
[32:06] SPEAKER_00: Um, and and I think another interesting thing about Lionel's video is that he felt like he couldn't release YouTube videos recently because who was he to give advice when he was unfit, he'd been injured, he felt he'd gotten so many things wrong this year, um, and and he kind of didn't feel like the authority that he probably is in the sport to be giving other people advice.
[32:26] SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, a few questions, boys.
[32:28] SPEAKER_00: Uh is is Lionel being smart?
[32:31] SPEAKER_00: Do you think Lionel's finally figured it out?
[32:33] SPEAKER_00: Do you think we're about to step into the final evolution of Lionel Sanders that can finally achieve what he's always wanted and win an Iron Man World Championship?
[32:41] SPEAKER_02: With ChatGPT, anything is possible, Jack.
[32:43] SPEAKER_02: And you know that's his coach, so I'm gonna say yes.
[32:46] SPEAKER_01: First of all, I just want to say I don't think the majority of people watch Lionel's content for his advice.
[32:52] SPEAKER_01: Like I think they just watch it because he's he's just like I love Lionel, but he's just so entertaining.
[32:58] SPEAKER_01: He tells it how it is.
[32:59] SPEAKER_01: Um I watched his latest video.
[33:01] SPEAKER_01: He got injured in May, right?
[33:03] SPEAKER_01: So it's been five months.
[33:05] SPEAKER_01: Obviously, that it's been quite a bad stress fracture, right?
[33:09] SPEAKER_01: Because we're now five months post-injury and he's still not ready for racing yet.
[33:14] SPEAKER_01: Does that is that timeline seem quite long to you guys?
[33:18] SPEAKER_01: I just think that, you know, most stress fractures are what do they say, ten to twelve weeks, so three months.
[33:24] SPEAKER_01: And then I know he's been running for a while.
[33:26] SPEAKER_01: I just thought he'd be back and ready to race, but obviously he's not quite there yet.
[33:30] SPEAKER_00: Wow, a lot of stress fractures can be four to six weeks.
[33:33] SPEAKER_00: You know, it depends on where where the reaction or fractures are at, but they can be four, six, eight weeks, you know, ten to twelve are the long ones.
[33:40] SPEAKER_00: Um if you've got minor stress reactions, it can be two to four weeks.
[33:43] SPEAKER_00: So it does vary a lot.
[33:45] SPEAKER_00: I think the thing with Lionel Apo is that it was more than a stress fracture in his mind.
[33:50] SPEAKER_00: Remember all of the red S stuff?
[33:52] SPEAKER_00: He felt that he had to make kind of a complete change to the way he was going about his fueling and his diet because he felt that his uh his couple of stress fractures and other injuries were because of his red S symptoms and that maybe he had had had a period of chronic underfueling.
[34:07] SPEAKER_00: So he went about a process of kind of refeeding, refueling, where he tried to put on a bit of weight, tried to let his body heal beyond just the stress fracture.
[34:16] SPEAKER_00: Like he spent quite a lot of time trying to give his body a break.
[34:19] SPEAKER_00: So that explains the long five months instead of just the quick rush back into a race six weeks post-stressy.
[34:25] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[34:26] SPEAKER_01: And I think getting back in and jumping straight into my Bayer 70.3 worlds, like you're jumping straight into the deep end, right?
[34:31] SPEAKER_01: You're not you're not starting off with that's probably why he wanted to do Augusta, you know, a bit of a lighter race, get some confidence, get some racing, and then into my Baya.
[34:40] SPEAKER_01: But I don't um, yeah, I don't think the decision's a bad one.
[34:44] SPEAKER_01: We've seen this flip-flop of Lionel going from 70.3 back to Iron Man, back to 70.3, back to Iron Man.
[34:51] SPEAKER_01: We've seen it over the past few years.
[34:53] SPEAKER_01: So I'm not going to rule out Lionel because every time I do, he comes back and shuts up, um, shuts me up.
[34:58] SPEAKER_01: So but I think the sport, Lionel's getting Lionel's older than me, right?
[35:04] SPEAKER_01: Um so I'm 35.
[35:05] SPEAKER_01: I think Lionel's maybe 37, so time is not on his side.
[35:09] SPEAKER_01: And I think every year you show um Iron Man's becoming more and more of a young person's game.
[35:14] SPEAKER_01: Like you're looking at Nice, and a lot of these guys are in mid mid to late 20s, and I think Lionel being a decade older, it's harder and harder every year for him to get back.
[35:23] SPEAKER_01: And I don't know.
[35:25] SPEAKER_01: I I hesitate to think that he can win an Iron Man World Championships, but he's proved me wrong in the past, and yeah, I don't know.
[35:33] SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
[35:34] SPEAKER_04: Old man Apple, I can feel the retirement nearing with the uh the sense of sentiment there.
[35:39] SPEAKER_01: I feel it in my bones.
[35:42] SPEAKER_01: I went to a concert the other night and now my calf's locked up on just for standing still for a few hours.
[35:48] SPEAKER_04: You know, to to your question, Jack, you said, Do I think Lonel's being smart?
[35:53] SPEAKER_04: I think he's being smart now by not racing 70.3 worlds or Iron Man Arizona and taking the long, uh, more conservative approach, right?
[36:03] SPEAKER_04: Hey, build a base, let's prepare a mine for 2026.
[36:06] SPEAKER_04: Maybe he threw out the idea of doing 70.3 Indian Wells, which, you know, I think he's in the mindset where he won't do that if it's uh any kind of injury risk or if he's not in the fitness to win or podium.
[36:16] SPEAKER_04: But I do think he, again, I I I know I like Lionel, I love him.
[36:21] SPEAKER_04: I he's been my role model in the sport forever.
[36:24] SPEAKER_04: And I don't want to put words in his mouth, and I don't know this, but I bet you Lionel has a few regrets with how things went early on in this injury cycle.
[36:32] SPEAKER_04: I think there was a bit of a misdiagnosis, which you can gather from the YouTube, where there was it a stress fracture, was it not a stress fracture, the imaging came back negative, then it came back positive.
[36:41] SPEAKER_04: I don't think the first four to eight weeks of this injury, which from my experience with bone stress injuries, I've had two or three of them now, that's the most important period.
[36:50] SPEAKER_04: I think there was a little bit of, hey, maybe it's two weeks off, let's run again, or maybe there's maybe it's a one-month issue, maybe it's red S and not a stress fracture, let's run again.
[37:01] SPEAKER_04: You know, there was a time at which he was thinking, okay, I'm gonna do 70.3 Louisville in August.
[37:06] SPEAKER_04: And then it became, okay, 70.3 Augusta in September.
[37:10] SPEAKER_04: Then it became 70.3 Worlds in November.
[37:12] SPEAKER_04: So I get the sense of the timeline didn't always seem um maybe as conservative as it could or should have been for the stress fracture.
[37:23] SPEAKER_04: And then the lead-in and the build back up might have been trying to get to the next start line rather than saying, hey, we're gonna shelf the season and we're gonna just focus on 70.3 worlds or Ironman Arizona from the start.
[37:34] SPEAKER_04: Perhaps, I'm not saying for sure, but perhaps if that decision had been made, say May, June, um, we might see Lionel in a better position now.
[37:42] SPEAKER_04: Uh, and again, this is using a little bit of my own experience from injuries, knowing like, man, you really gotta be so conservative and careful those first three, four weeks.
[37:50] SPEAKER_04: And if it's eight weeks, it's gotta be eight weeks, and if it's 12 weeks, it's gotta be 12 weeks.
[37:54] SPEAKER_04: And if you start to tick those timelines down, you're rolling the dice a little bit.
[37:57] SPEAKER_04: Not that he did, but it it just felt from the YouTube series that I watched every episode of, they didn't always have a hundred percent grasp on what the timeline would or should be.
[38:05] SPEAKER_02: I think it's weak sauce.
[38:07] SPEAKER_02: All right, I think it's weak sauce.
[38:09] SPEAKER_02: We got Lionel Sanders skipping worlds, we got Justin Reality skipping worlds, we got Sam Appleton skipping worlds, all these pro trom athletes just too scared to show up to the start line because they're not in their best form.
[38:22] SPEAKER_02: All right, guys, you just respect your other competition and get your ass to the start line.
[38:30] SPEAKER_04: Spoken like a man who was 37th of worlds last year.
[38:34] SPEAKER_00: 32nd! 33rd one age group of beat you as well, be honest, Greg.
[38:38] SPEAKER_02: No, that was ocean's thing.
[38:39] SPEAKER_00: No, it was 70.3 worlds as well.
[38:42] SPEAKER_00: Okay, Greg, you said that ChatGBT is coaching Lionel.
[38:45] SPEAKER_00: So I think it's like a 50-50 partnership, Lionel and ChatGBT.
[38:48] SPEAKER_04: But if you were if you sponsored, honestly, like he must be right.
[38:52] SPEAKER_04: Open AI is like a hundred billion dollars.
[38:55] SPEAKER_00: If you were Lionel's coach for the next 12 months, Greg, how would you approach it?
[38:59] SPEAKER_00: What would you do with him?
[39:00] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I do think Lionel is being smart, right?
[39:03] SPEAKER_02: And like he's in the twilight of his career.
[39:05] SPEAKER_02: So being sm being a little conservative now, like building your base and resiliency now to blossom the next two years, I think is smart.
[39:14] SPEAKER_02: I can't tell him how to bike and run.
[39:16] SPEAKER_02: He knows how to get himself in that place.
[39:17] SPEAKER_02: I would say get his swim speed up.
[39:19] SPEAKER_02: I mean, like Apo said, can he get back into a world championship level form where he can compete in a podium?
[39:25] SPEAKER_02: Not if you come out five minutes behind in the swim, right?
[39:28] SPEAKER_02: So his swim speed should be his number one priority.
[39:32] SPEAKER_02: Hopefully he's been able to do it while he's been injured over the last few months.
[39:36] SPEAKER_02: And not like, oh, I need to do this threshold work.
[39:38] SPEAKER_02: Like he needs his hundred meter, his 200 meter, like his 400 meter TT speed in this pool needs to be up.
[39:45] SPEAKER_02: So that's what I would focus on him with.
[39:47] SPEAKER_02: Um, and like you said, build the resiliency so he can come back and be you know motivated to train um you know in the next in the next few months.
[39:55] SPEAKER_00: And give us the top one way you would do it.
[39:57] SPEAKER_00: Like let's not I know it's it's multifactorial, but what is the number one tip you would give him to be faster in the water?
[40:05] SPEAKER_02: A ton of technique work, but identify like what you need to work on and attack those skills and build them and and speed, like short speed, super high-end, uh, you know, hundred meter speed.
[40:16] SPEAKER_00: And what about you, Apo?
[40:17] SPEAKER_00: If you were Lionel's coach for the next 12 months, what would you do with him?
[40:20] SPEAKER_01: Give him a couple uh four by one thousands in the pool, you know, nice and easy.
[40:26] SPEAKER_01: I'm with Apo.
[40:27] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the sport's just evolving in a way that if you're not out in that front group, it's just so hard to get back to the front of the race.
[40:35] SPEAKER_01: Um and I think like what Greg said, like you see distance runners doing strides, right, improving their 1k, 3k, 5k speed, and that's shown to have economy um improvements in all zones, right?
[40:50] SPEAKER_01: And I think the same principles can be applied to swimming.
[40:53] SPEAKER_01: If you improve that takeout speed, it's gonna improve everything.
[40:58] SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, I think if Lionel can get his swim up to be in that, you know, not with the leaders like the Jamie Riddles and the Schombergs and stuff, but if he can be in that main group, I think he can put himself in um in with a great shot at winning these world championship level races.
[41:13] SPEAKER_00: The only minor concern I had watching this video is I wouldn't want Lionel to lose what I think makes Lionel special.
[41:21] SPEAKER_00: I don't think he's ever been the most gifted athlete physiologically, uh I mean mechanically, he's one of the least gifted athletes on the planet, but he's always made it work, and I think the reason he's made it work is that he's a dog.
[41:33] SPEAKER_00: Lionel has the dog in him more than almost any human alive, and I don't love this like tame version of Lionel.
[41:40] SPEAKER_00: I don't love this smart version of Lionel.
[41:43] SPEAKER_00: I actually think he's been able to get the most out of himself because he's a bit crazy, he does some batshit crazy stuff, he trains hard, he forces himself to get good because he has the mindset that if I work hard enough for long enough, I will become one of the best in the world.
[41:58] SPEAKER_00: And so when he's talking about you know building a base, doing lots of easy aerobic mileage, I kind of get scared and I'm like, I hate this version of Lionel.
[42:08] SPEAKER_00: Even if it is smart, even if it is probably what he should have done 10 years ago, I think he just he can't he can't ever lose his magic, which is his ability to work hard, push himself deeper than than every other athlete on the start line.
[42:21] SPEAKER_00: And I hope he doesn't do that.
[42:22] SPEAKER_00: Like I hope he realizes that he still needs a bit of that magic, a bit of that crazy in his mind.
[42:27] SPEAKER_00: He still needs a bit of that that kind of whatever it is, whatever as the great Jan Jan Vredino would say, whatever it is that Lionel's been running away from, don't stop running because that's what's going to make you one of the greatest athletes on the world.
[42:40] SPEAKER_00: And so I think he needs to, he needs to, yes, be a bit smarter, but I just think get someone in his team who stops him from doing the really dumb shit, but don't lose the dumb shit altogether, because that's what makes him such a special athlete, in my opinion.
[42:52] SPEAKER_01: I think for 70.3 you can let the dog out and the dog can just go crazy.
[42:56] SPEAKER_01: But for Iron Man, I do feel like you need to you need to put a bit of a muzzle on the dog.
[43:00] SPEAKER_01: You need to do have a little bit of restraint.
[43:03] SPEAKER_01: And we've seen Lionel in 70.3 be so dominant because he is, he can push himself.
[43:09] SPEAKER_01: He has, you know, Lionel's past me in races absolutely grunting and screaming, and I'm just jogging along going, man, I wish I could push myself like that.
[43:18] SPEAKER_01: Um but I think in an Iron Man, you do need a you do need some level of restraint, right?
[43:25] SPEAKER_04: Do you think that's in the training too, Appo, or is that just on race deck?
[43:29] SPEAKER_01: I think it's in the training as well.
[43:30] SPEAKER_01: Like 70.3 is such a short race.
[43:33] SPEAKER_01: Like you can just throw caution in the wind and go as hard as you can, and you're gonna get away with it most of the time, and Lionel has shown that, but you can't do that with Iron Man.
[43:40] SPEAKER_01: You do have have to have a level of restraint and calm and yeah, almost like being a bit conservative.
[43:48] SPEAKER_01: And I think you need to train that as well.
[43:50] SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think if Lionel is focusing on it, going back to more of that easier aerobic training, um, it could work for him.
[43:58] SPEAKER_01: And you know, like we spoke about it last week, we're on the Norwegian um Harold said that long easy miles is one of the key pillars to the Norwegian method success.
[44:07] SPEAKER_01: So you know maybe can work for Lionel too.
[44:11] SPEAKER_00: I just think Lionel isn't the guy to do it for himself.
[44:13] SPEAKER_00: Like I just think he needs someone to hold him back but he can't be the one to do it because I think that is giving away part of what makes him special.
[44:19] SPEAKER_00: Like I I I'm just saying I want him to realize that his greatest gift is his mind.
[44:25] SPEAKER_00: And now a lot of people look at it and go it's also his greatest weakness.
[44:28] SPEAKER_00: Which it is.
[44:29] SPEAKER_00: It's so often the case that your biggest strength is your biggest weakness.
[44:32] SPEAKER_00: But I think the way to solve this which everyone's been saying on his YouTube comments for about 16 years now is get someone to help you like stop you from doing the truly crazy shit but don't lose the crazy in his mind.
[44:44] SPEAKER_00: That's all I'm trying to say here is he can't lose the crazy he just needs someone to control the crazy he's like he's a dog on an extendable leash that's just a little bit too long.
[44:52] SPEAKER_00: He needs to be moved to a non-extendable leash that's a bit tighter keeps him on a little bit of a a smaller level.
[44:58] SPEAKER_00: Jack's got that non-extendable leash going on uh on his athletes can I can I quickly just does it annoy you if you're running on a path and someone has their dogs on an extendable leash and they're all the way across the path?
[45:10] SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
[45:11] SPEAKER_04: I mostly am like pissed off at the dog owner for being negligent.
[45:16] SPEAKER_04: It's like having your child run out in the street.
[45:18] SPEAKER_04: It's like I'm gonna step on your small dog and it's gonna die and it's gonna be your fault not mine.
[45:22] SPEAKER_04: I'm running on the path in a straight line.
[45:24] SPEAKER_04: And I've almost hit dogs on a bike multiple times.
[45:27] SPEAKER_04: Same thing.
[45:28] SPEAKER_04: You're going 30 miles an hour in TT, a little eight-pound chihuahua runs out in front of you you're like I don't want to make that you know dog into a little mint squirrel.
[45:37] SPEAKER_00: Justin's on the path it's like all the walkers and joggers he's like on his time trial bike with his arrow helmet like on your left okay do you know who I am I run these streets I personally think that all triathletes or endurance athletes in general should be taking creatine daily however not all creatines are created equal and in the case of Pillar Performance's creatine monohydrate it features single origin creepure made in Germany which is the purest form of creatine monohydrate available on the market and unlike most brands it's informed sports certified.
[46:13] SPEAKER_00: So as a triathlete why should you be taking creatine daily?
[46:17] SPEAKER_00: Well firstly energy production creatine helps but replenish ATP which is the body's primary energy source this means higher anaerobic capacity and better overall athletic performance.
[46:28] SPEAKER_00: Enhanced recovery is the second thing creatine reduces muscle damage and inflammation while promoting faster glycogen replenishment this leads to quicker recovery between training sessions and races.
[46:40] SPEAKER_00: It's it's probably in my opinion the main reason why you should use it just the in hugely enhanced recovery that that it it it leads to and then thirdly is the cognitive benefits.
[46:50] SPEAKER_00: Creatine supports brain function reducing mental fatigue and improve improving focus throughout endurance events but also just day to day in your life if you're trying to get up early and train and then go to work and then look after your family and and spend quality time with the people you care about maybe even train a second time I mean you just need to have the cognitive ability to do so and creatine definitely helps that so if you would like to try some creatine monohydrate for yourself which I highly recommend you do then head to pillarperformance.shop or for North American listeners listeners head to thefeed.com and enter the code TTH for 15% off all first purchases that's code TTH for 15% off all first purchases.
[47:32] SPEAKER_00: All right let's move on though it's time for all of our favorite segment of the week it's reading your Spotify comments and like always we just want to thank you for yet again an overwhelming amount there was like so many this week it's actually stupid how many of you get around it and we love it.
[47:46] SPEAKER_00: We like seriously our message group is just full of your Spotify comments even if they don't get read here chances are we've messaged them on the group and laughed about them or debated them.
[47:55] SPEAKER_00: So keep it up and we are sorry that we can't get to everyone's comments.
[47:58] SPEAKER_00: Like we honestly wish we could we actually talked about doing a podcast over on Patreon that was just reading every comment and discussing them.
[48:05] SPEAKER_00: Let us know if you want us to do that.
[48:06] SPEAKER_00: We just thought maybe it might be a little bit boring by the end.
[48:09] SPEAKER_00: But if you are someone who's commented and we haven't read your comment yet just keep commenting because if we notice your name multiple times and we haven't read it haven't read your comment yet we do genuinely make an attempt to to read one of them but also just make your comment a little bit funnier and then it'll get read.
[48:25] SPEAKER_00: So Greg, kick us off.
[48:27] SPEAKER_02: Alright I picked this comment because it was the best one of the bunch Justin Reale says Apo out here dishon B minus grades for Kona podium finishers when he skits Nice only to lose to Ari Clow.
[48:42] SPEAKER_02: Ooh I'm with Greg Kona podium equals a always and I will say quickly a lot of people agreed that Kona podium was an A and uh they disagreed with all you so I'll just put that out there to start.
[48:54] SPEAKER_04: Yeah well now that I'm no longer on the podcast I'm relegated to leaving comments with uh the rest of the pretenders so I'm glad I get to I get to say this one to Apo's face.
[49:03] SPEAKER_04: I was not expecting to have to face Appo face to face when I left this comment.
[49:06] SPEAKER_04: I thought I could kind of hide as a listener.
[49:08] SPEAKER_00: Keyboard warrior okay Daniel Walker says you're all off your heads are you going to be giving out 20th place ribbons at Kona next year?
[49:17] SPEAKER_00: These are pro athletes a DNF must be an F.
[49:21] SPEAKER_00: Sure give them a mention for a gallant effort but at the same time you get an F.
[49:26] SPEAKER_00: Taylor only three kilometers from the finish A for effort but too bad failed to submit a score F.
[49:32] SPEAKER_00: Okay I have a question for you guys.
[49:35] SPEAKER_00: Hypothetically it wasn't Taylor let's say that it was pick an athlete that you've never let let's say it was Sarah Sphinx the pride of Sweden if she was leading that race with that field with two Ks to go on the marathon and collapsed would you still give it an F?
[49:50] SPEAKER_02: Yes of course I was the only one who agreed with Daniel on the original and yeah of course it's just it the it's black and white D and F.
[49:59] SPEAKER_00: Daniel's comment got a lot of likes too it was the most liked comment on the Spotify last week.
[50:03] SPEAKER_02: I'm feeling good about myself I'm not gonna lie no I wouldn't give her an F.
[50:07] SPEAKER_04: I I wouldn't I wouldn't I mean if you were if you were let's fucking put Greg out here.
[50:13] SPEAKER_04: Greg goes to Kona next year wins the swim gets passed by 20 people on the bike proceeds to run down the entire field running 228 pace all the way onto the Queen K winning Kona and then collapses F I mean I didn't execute my race plan I didn't get to the finish line.
[50:30] SPEAKER_04: But you you still still the idea of somebody even leading Kona for a period of time is just an insane achievement in and of itself for many athletes that they will never achieve myself included probably so like I just think like it's a bit harsh you have to race with a lot of risk these days to get a win and having it be that binary is silly.
[50:51] SPEAKER_04: Like you think about the sponsor exposure the black I know we're just messing around with the grading like it doesn't actually mean anything but like Taylor like executed a story it does yeah you're in Greg's book he like he's like F grade I just feel like I feel like we you know we there was history made on that course on that day and like we're all just gonna say oh it's an F grade like it's kind of silly.
[51:12] SPEAKER_00: Well Daniel would tell you you're off your head.
[51:14] SPEAKER_01: Yeah off your head so last week on the pod we spoke about the top five reasons why the Norwegians are so good and Tompa says in reference to that discussion don't listen to anything the Norwegians say.
[51:26] SPEAKER_01: Again I joke but honestly there's probably a banana skin in everything they say.
[51:31] SPEAKER_01: Just ask Sam Laidlow when KB told him to have 600 milligrams of caffeine right before the race.
[51:37] SPEAKER_01: And I'm not a hundred percent sure if I understand what Tompa is saying right here.
[51:42] SPEAKER_01: What does a banana skin have to do with it?
[51:44] SPEAKER_00: This was from oh the banana skin I don't know but you know the caffeine story right because that was on this podcast where like Sam Laidlow back when he was not really a big name he came on this podcast and he and he started telling a story about how before the race Christian like told him to just have as much caffeine as he could and so and he and he saw Christian drinking a heap of coffee.
[52:04] SPEAKER_00: So Sam Laidlow the morning of the race went to the espresso machine and just drank coffee after coffee after coffee after coffee and had hundreds of milligrams of caffeine and he wasn't a caffeine guy before that and then he was explosively diarrheering on the run course.
[52:20] SPEAKER_01: That was at the Collins Cup wasn't it's hilarious.
[52:23] SPEAKER_00: And Christian did it just to fuck with him like Christian 100% like has admitted that he did it to fuck with him and that just the other day Christian commented on Sam Laidlow's Instagram post or something like a shit emoji about this.
[52:35] SPEAKER_00: So Christian's still laughing about it.
[52:37] SPEAKER_01: But Christian does consume a lot of caffeine like he he came out and said that he had didn't he have like 1200 milligrams of caffeine or something at was it Iron Man either Texas or Ironman Frankfurt one of the Ironmans that he won the Iron Man Pro Series he came out and said 1200 milligrams of caffeine like that is so much.
[52:57] SPEAKER_02: He did end up in an outhouse in that race in Ironman Frankfurt and throwing up but he won I'll take it hey Tompa says don't listen to anything the Norwegians say did he take 1200?
[53:08] SPEAKER_00: We'll never know good point great.
[53:11] SPEAKER_04: Alright this next one David says with no athlete contracts for the T100 next year I worry for the turnout of the pros at T100 Singapore.
[53:21] SPEAKER_04: That looked like the race they were all trying to dodge because of humidity.
[53:25] SPEAKER_04: Plus next year with the pro series kicking off at Iron Man New Zealand in March along with 70.3 Geelong being the same weekend as T100 Gold Coast at the end of March, I'm unsure what the pro field will look like there as well.
[53:39] SPEAKER_04: Could this backfire for the T100 badly?
[53:43] SPEAKER_04: I mean what do you guys think?
[53:44] SPEAKER_04: There's obviously just a ton of race competition to start this year off in March and it's great for fans.
[53:51] SPEAKER_04: You're gonna have your pick but I think it comes down to what are people more excited for and what are pros more excited to race?
[53:57] SPEAKER_04: The Pro Series at New Zealand and T100 uh or or T100 Singapore and Gold Coast rather than Iron Man.
[54:05] SPEAKER_00: Yeah I think this is stupid from the T100.
[54:07] SPEAKER_00: I think the T100 solution is sitting there right in front of their face.
[54:10] SPEAKER_00: We've talked about it so many times times on this podcast that I'm just gonna say it again.
[54:15] SPEAKER_00: They need to start their year with four big races where there's$150,000 on the line for each of the races and then do five other races at the end of the year that are smaller with less prize money they're the contender series.
[54:27] SPEAKER_00: Four big opens the Singapore open if you want to have it in Singapore$150,000 on the line then head over to the States do the US Open in San Francisco or where wherever they want to do it then come to Australia do the Australian Open on the Gold Coast then go to Germany and do the German the German uh open pick a German town maybe Berlin for example that's what they need to do.
[54:48] SPEAKER_00: That's the only way they get all of the athletes at their races do them at the start of the year before all of the big Iron Man races that way everyone will show up there's enough money on the line that people will come but yeah without question next year people aren't going to go to Singapore it's too it's just too hard the there's other options they've got bigger goals at the end of the year we know what the T100 need to do.
[55:08] SPEAKER_02: They just need to commit to do it no more half measure measures like we talked about like Mike Erman Traut says to Walter Wilde on Breaking Bad Alright Sasha Riesling says Hayden Wilde is the max for Stappen of the T 100.
[55:23] SPEAKER_02: They both make people stop caring about the races.
[55:26] SPEAKER_02: Now Kate Donahue also says surely this announcement of no contractual obligations caught Alex Y's attention at the opportunity to derail Hayden's reign could also be T 100's best play to make the men's race less boring.
[55:42] SPEAKER_02: Mike Marshall thinks as a community we need to come up with a way for the T 100 to handicap Hayden Wilde he suggests starting the swim five minutes later than everyone or he has to run backwards.
[55:53] SPEAKER_02: All right and our boy Noah Raz who gets his comments read a lot and this one's pretty good with Matt Hauser winning the WTCS world title the only thing wetter than his wetsuit was Greg's pants after that utterly dominant performance especially in the swim.
[56:10] SPEAKER_02: Where does this place him in the ranks if he were to move up to T100 all right I'll I'll jump us off.
[56:16] SPEAKER_02: I just gotta say Matt Hauser's the best male athlete on the planet and uh I have a and I have a crush on him a little bit so that's that's my take.
[56:24] SPEAKER_02: Little love triangle with Hauser and Schomberg over here with uh Gregory Harper.
[56:28] SPEAKER_00: Oh don't give it like oh my god I got chills just thinking about that okay Greg I've got one for you okay kiss marry kill Matthauser Hayden Wilde Jonas Schomberg kill Hayden obviously no um question about it didn't even have to think I'm gonna go with marry Matthauser because I'm and then yeah I'll uh have sex with Jonas he just took that right from kiss to sex that was quick oh now when he said oh I was about to say fluff but I didn't want to I tried to give you the out and not say fluff like that's why I said kiss and I even thought about it and you just completely ignore it and chose to fuck Jonas anyway.
[57:21] SPEAKER_01: That was great.
[57:21] SPEAKER_01: I think just going to Kate Donahue's question she said do you think Alex Ye's um is perked up at the no contractual obligation I think you know I'd love to see Alex in a in in a T100.
[57:34] SPEAKER_01: I do think it would take him a little bit of time to get his TT wheels under him.
[57:39] SPEAKER_01: Like Hayden has just shown that he's basically one of the best cyclists and far and away the best runner right so I think for um Alex to come in he would have to really be quite strong on the bike to be able to unleash that weapon of his on the run I don't know I just think Hayden is just so dominant that it's it's hard to see anyone beating him in my opinion.
[58:03] SPEAKER_00: I can say this as a fact appoint the T100 are trying to get Alex Yi to race.
[58:07] SPEAKER_00: They've made contact with him they've reached out to him they want him.
[58:10] SPEAKER_00: I think even I could go as far to say that Alex Yi is the number one person they want next year.
[58:15] SPEAKER_00: So just know that behind the scenes they are trying to make that happen and it would be awesome.
[58:20] SPEAKER_00: It would be so good to at least see the Alex and Hayden um rivalry next year whether it's at T100 or Ironman 70.3 world champs or wherever wherever it is I think we all want to see that over the middle distance and apologies to Kane I know the boys called you Kate a couple of times there but it was Kane when we read that out.
[58:36] SPEAKER_01: Yeah I did say Kate.
[58:37] SPEAKER_00: Sorry Kane You're Kate to us now Kane.
[58:41] SPEAKER_01: T17 underscore SSTPW hand to mouthful says Sam Laidlow mentioned on the All in Triton podcast that doing the T one hundred made him not as good for Iron Man and is why he didn't do well in Kona.
[58:56] SPEAKER_01: Taylor and Lucy both did T100 this year and both cracked at Kona.
[59:00] SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on that?
[59:02] SPEAKER_01: PS I agree on T one hundred having four or five big races and four or five smaller, lower ranked races.
[59:08] SPEAKER_01: I think we we all said it right Lucy has raced more this year than she has in the past and we'll never know if it affected her results.
[59:16] SPEAKER_01: I don't think for Taylor it was that that reason I think um but I think maybe for Lucy like she did race a lot more this year than she has in the past and maybe she didn't for me personally like I like long training blocks for Iron Man and uninterrupted training blocks and I think that's important but I don't think we'll ever know whether it was the T100 series that caused them to crack.
[59:37] SPEAKER_00: Well Apo, both podiums the male and female podiums none of them took T100 contracts I think that does tell you a bit.
[59:45] SPEAKER_02: Pedro says apparently the glove method is spreading I just watched Martin Van Riel's latest YouTube video where he says he's using it as well.
[59:53] SPEAKER_01: Alright Jack this is uh this is you so congrats on that I think Martin's just doing it for pleasure not science though so it's a bit different to the Norwegians the Wednesday one says Apo you need to put some more feeling into your precision fuel and hydration ad read I'm a fan of the product but you sound like you've got a gun to your head well you you were not on the call you did not see what was held to my head during that ad read but um no maybe maybe we'll have to record another one after this and I'll put a little more oomph into it.
[1:00:27] SPEAKER_04: Let's record one after this he didn't have a gun to his head like Justin said just a just a friendly glove to the head oh that's good those marshmallow bars from precision are are pretty decent the solid precision stuff is good.
[1:00:42] SPEAKER_00: I would pump it up even if they didn't support the podcast.
[1:00:44] SPEAKER_04: But once you have it you're not going to anything else especially not mortal don't say that Chris Chambers says I can confirm my wife does long runs on the treadmill up to and exceeding 15 miles.
[1:00:56] SPEAKER_04: She has major serial killer vibes Iraqi marriage for that boy I'm just gonna leave that one there.
[1:01:05] SPEAKER_00: Hoping that Chris's wife doesn't listen to the podcast if Chris doesn't comment on this this week's pod maybe someone should check in on him if we don't hear from Chris in the Spotify comments we know his wife's got him and others by the sounds of it.
[1:01:20] SPEAKER_00: And our last one this isn't we're not going to read a comment Florian Bal, your comment had too many controversial points in it and we we saw it we saw it know that we saw it and we were just thinking this week that we might start a 30 minute weekly podcast called the Triton Hour after hours that we'll like do after this.
[1:01:39] SPEAKER_00: So we'll record this podcast we'll hit stop we'll put that out to everyone and then we'll keep recording for 30 minutes where basically we can say all of the stuff that we're too scared to say on this podcast because of you know we'll probably get cancelled if we'll say it.
[1:01:52] SPEAKER_00: And yeah that's why we we thought we'd call it after hours and release it on Patreon.
[1:01:56] SPEAKER_00: So if you think that's a good idea let us know because we kind of always get off these podcasts and we're like oh we didn't say that or I didn't say that because of this.
[1:02:04] SPEAKER_00: And we just often feel like absolute um cowards for doing it.
[1:02:08] SPEAKER_00: And so we kind of want an outlet to be able to say exactly what we think about something.
[1:02:12] SPEAKER_00: So if you do want us to release a 30 minute podcast every week after this called the Trithon hour after hours where you do get the the uncut stuff, the uncut thoughts then let us know in the Spotify comments this week because if you guys are in for it, we'll start it literally next week.
[1:02:26] SPEAKER_00: We'll put it out on Patreon every single week and uh we hope we hope that uh if you do want that we can make it a really fun and entertaining and silly podcast.
[1:02:34] SPEAKER_00: Um that's us done.
[1:02:36] SPEAKER_00: That's us done uh yeah this was a wild ride this podcast the uh movie chat not realizing that Apo was uh the movie buff that he is the Chris Nolan love the Image and Simmons chat Lionel Sanders chat and then reading your Spotify comments it's uh it's been a good one.
[1:02:50] SPEAKER_00: Justin thank you for joining us mate sorry about the late notice I only gave you 90 minutes notice but thank you so much for stepping in for Vicky.
[1:02:56] SPEAKER_04: Happy to I uh I can't ever fill Vicky's shoes but hope uh hope the pregnancy goes well and maybe I'll be back on some point next year.
[1:03:03] SPEAKER_00: Definitely if not we we have the daily podcast coming up in Mar Baya next week Justin so the the people yeah the people love you we might have to get you back on for them um we're gonna do I think we're gonna do seven podcasts next week good luck uh good luck to Apo and Marbella thanks Justin hey yeah and to you too no appo's not racing it apo Greg uh like I just said Mar Baya daily pods next week that's exciting uh let's let's get ready to do it for for a whole week yeah yeah buddy yep thanks boys

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