# Hard Training, Doping & Triathlon Conspiracy Theories!!!

An episode of [The Triathlon Hour](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1595443343), 14 Jul 2025, 1 h 07 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2640942/episodes/19698048-hard-training-doping-triathlon-conspiracy-theories.mp3

Age Group drug testing, Race Ranger making drafting data public, reflection on Andrew Messick vs Scott Derues differences as CEO of Ironman, the T100 is (maybe) going to the Olympics, the Sam Laidlow conspiracy theory, the Kona favourites + can debutant win, which male & female triathletes train the hardest, should pro’s speak up if they are suspicious about an athlete doping + the first ever edition of pretender or contender. Yep, it was a big one!! Patreon: We put a lot of time & energy into bringing you this podcast every week and have done for 4 years now. If you appreciate what we do, we would love your support and you can do so for less than the cost of a coffee per week on Patreon - Patreon link

## Transcript

[0:19] SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another edition of the Triathon Hour.
[0:22] SPEAKER_00: I'm Jack Kelly, your host, as always, and just like always, I'm joined by Ari Clare, who's now shaved his head for the first time ever in his life.
[0:29] SPEAKER_02: Should be extra good in the heat.
[0:31] SPEAKER_02: Also, not the first time.
[0:32] SPEAKER_02: I uh had my friends shave my head in high school once for no reason.
[0:36] SPEAKER_00: Uh we should come back to a story you were telling us on the group message during the week about something else you did in high school, maybe Ari.
[0:42] SPEAKER_02: Not high school.
[0:43] SPEAKER_02: That was college.
[0:44] SPEAKER_02: That's not for the public to know.
[0:48] SPEAKER_00: Uh and just like always, I'm joined by the now swim coach of Sam Long, Greg Harper.
[0:54] SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
[0:54] SPEAKER_01: Uh thanks for having me, Jack.
[0:56] SPEAKER_01: Should be a good one.
[0:57] SPEAKER_00: Lots to talk about.
[0:58] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I guess we'll kind of get rolling.
[1:01] SPEAKER_01: So following the news that Roth would be increasing its age group drug testing, the question is, is age group drug testing worth the financial investment?
[1:12] SPEAKER_01: Personally, I would like to see all money for drug testing go to all pro races and testing more pros.
[1:21] SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that's just that's my that's my initial thought about on the subject.
[1:26] SPEAKER_00: I got a question on that, Greg.
[1:27] SPEAKER_00: Given that Trithlon is largely an age group sport, age groupers make up all of the money in the sport.
[1:33] SPEAKER_00: They're the ones bringing in the money through participation, they're the ones watching it, they're the ones buying sponsors product.
[1:38] SPEAKER_00: Don't you think it is incumbent on the sport that they should give that kind of support back to the age group racing rather than just funneling it all into the pros, which make up a really small percentage of the sport?
[1:49] SPEAKER_01: I think that's like a fair question.
[1:51] SPEAKER_01: And you know, if you're gonna put a lot of money and time into the sport, you want to be yeah, rewarded or treated well.
[1:58] SPEAKER_01: However, in the end, it's not their jobs, and like the pros are competing for money.
[2:02] SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I just think that that principle of the matter is kind of most important.
[2:07] SPEAKER_01: And I think you can do both, but it's just like I mean, I could be out here doing as many drugs as I want.
[2:12] SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm I'm not being drug tested.
[2:14] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm not winning races, but it's just like there are so many pros who are, you know, ranked 50 to 200 in the world.
[2:20] SPEAKER_01: You don't have to drug test them all, but like a lot of us could be doing a lot of different stuff, and then you get to the top, right?
[2:26] SPEAKER_01: And then you can take money and all that type of stuff.
[2:29] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I just think that maybe they could give some money.
[2:32] SPEAKER_01: But I mean it's a challenge, right?
[2:34] SPEAKER_01: This was this was an Iron Man, so I'm not quite sure where all the money would go, but it seems like you could probably do more with the pros before you start doing the age groupers.
[2:43] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I generally agree with you, Greg.
[2:46] SPEAKER_02: And the only edge case I can really see here is maybe in some of the younger age groups where the the winners of those age groups might one day go pro and there's no age group drug testing, so they can kind of get away with it and then you know, and maybe they they stop doing whatever they're doing once they go pro because there is drug testing.
[3:05] SPEAKER_02: I I I have to imagine that's happened at least a couple times.
[3:10] SPEAKER_02: It's not the kind of thing that's like never happened before.
[3:12] SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's common, but that's really the only edge case I could see.
[3:16] SPEAKER_02: But otherwise, I'm totally in agreement with you, Greg.
[3:18] SPEAKER_02: I I think there needs to be more money going towards drug testing for the pros instead of just the you know the very top level.
[3:26] SPEAKER_00: So do you guys think that there should be no age group drug testing or just limited age group drug testing?
[3:32] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think limited.
[3:34] SPEAKER_01: And I like the threat of it too, right?
[3:37] SPEAKER_01: I think that's gonna be the biggest deterrent for the age groupers.
[3:40] SPEAKER_01: Like you have to do enough to deter people.
[3:43] SPEAKER_01: So hopefully there is some testing.
[3:45] SPEAKER_01: Like, whatever happens, if Iron Man is just like, we're ramping up drug testing for Kona, and they don't, that's fine.
[3:51] SPEAKER_01: It will probably deter the 50-year-old man from getting that extra shot of testosterone from his doctor this week.
[3:57] SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm all for like the threat of it, I think making a bigger difference.
[4:00] SPEAKER_01: And even for the pros, too.
[4:01] SPEAKER_01: Like, if if you s if you say you're gonna drug test more, people will probably be more careful and less likely to do drugs.
[4:08] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm torn on it because I don't like the idea that age group racing just becomes full of drugs.
[4:14] SPEAKER_00: And the only way to stop that from happening is by testing more.
[4:17] SPEAKER_00: Like if if if you're an age grouper and you know there's zero testing or very limited testing, I mean, and you're considering and maybe I do go and get some get on some testosterone because my doctor said I'm eligible for it or whatever it is.
[4:29] SPEAKER_00: I I mean, I don't love that, but then again, I don't care as as much as what I do if a professional does it.
[4:36] SPEAKER_00: So I'm kind of I'm just torn.
[4:37] SPEAKER_00: Like if I hear about an age grouper doping, I go, it's not great, but I definitely don't care to the same level as if I found out that the professional Iron Man World Champion um was was doping.
[4:50] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm torn on it.
[4:52] SPEAKER_00: I do unlike you, Greg, I think that there probably needs to be a little bit, but I don't know if it's really the best financial investment to just keep funneling more and more money into age group drug testing.
[5:02] SPEAKER_01: Well, there is a bit of a self-reporting system too with age groupers, and I'm not sure if it works for the pros, but you know, my dad used to race against a guy and he would win his age group a lot, and enough people spoke up that they went and drug tested this guy and he was positive.
[5:15] SPEAKER_01: That's the hotline.
[5:16] SPEAKER_01: That was in that was like 60 to 64 like Kona time, maybe 55, 59, 60 to 64.
[5:23] SPEAKER_01: You know, this is 10, 15 years ago, and they went and he he did get banned.
[5:27] SPEAKER_01: Um so wow.
[5:28] SPEAKER_01: I I I think it can be uh it can be obvious um at times for people who are in the age group and maybe they have to kind of band together to to make a change.
[5:38] SPEAKER_00: And like I said, I do I do think that age group triathlon is triathlon to a to a degree.
[5:43] SPEAKER_00: Like professional triathlon is bigger than it's ever been, but we still are an age group sport.
[5:47] SPEAKER_00: So I still do like the idea that as a support as a sport we support the age groupers.
[5:52] SPEAKER_00: And I mean, if you're a clean age grouper and you're getting beaten by someone on drugs, that sucks.
[5:56] SPEAKER_00: And we don't really want that.
[5:57] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, tricky, tricky.
[5:59] SPEAKER_00: Um speaking of tricky, I've got a question for you boys.
[6:03] SPEAKER_00: Is Race Ranger making drafting data public a good thing?
[6:06] SPEAKER_00: They haven't released the numbers yet from Challenge Roth, but we know that they said they were going to.
[6:11] SPEAKER_00: Does that show that they're being careful about maybe how they do that so that they don't upset anyone?
[6:16] SPEAKER_02: Can I ask you why you think they haven't released it yet?
[6:20] SPEAKER_02: Like why why would they be upsetting someone?
[6:22] SPEAKER_02: Or or if if you are Challenge Roth, why why haven't you released it yet?
[6:28] SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, I've chatted to to the boys over at Race Ranger since Roth, and they made a really good point.
[6:34] SPEAKER_00: And someone has to be on top of that list.
[6:37] SPEAKER_00: So no matter how much people did or didn't draft, there always has to be someone who drafted the most.
[6:43] SPEAKER_00: And that's something they're being careful about.
[6:45] SPEAKER_00: And Felix, who runs Challenge Roth, he's like the nicest guy in Triflon.
[6:49] SPEAKER_00: You literally will not meet a nicer guy in in the sport, and he wouldn't want to upset anyone.
[6:55] SPEAKER_00: And so I think they'd just be trying to find that balance of how do we release this because we promised we were going to, but how do we do it without really offending someone or maybe multiple people?
[7:05] SPEAKER_00: Because even if you only drafted for say eight minutes, you could still be the most by a factor of two or three or four, and then people might be like, oh, well, that person's a drafter.
[7:14] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, my belief is that they're just being super careful about how they go about it so that they do it in in like an ethical and moral way without upsetting anyone too much.
[7:22] SPEAKER_02: But that means in the red, right?
[7:24] SPEAKER_02: When you say drafted for eight minutes, you mean in the red for eight minutes?
[7:27] SPEAKER_00: Hypothetical number, but just to say that, like, say that that that's the most in the red, and then someone was at four minutes.
[7:34] SPEAKER_00: They're completely hypothetical numbers.
[7:35] SPEAKER_02: I feel like who cares?
[7:37] SPEAKER_02: Like, who cares who's at the you're you don't want to offend the guy who drafted the most in the race, who spent the most time actually cheating and it's backed up by data.
[7:46] SPEAKER_02: Like that's that's ridiculous to say we don't want to upset the pro who might or the pros who might be at the top of this list because they spent the most time cheating.
[7:55] SPEAKER_01: It's not cheating though all the time.
[7:56] SPEAKER_01: Like not all the time.
[7:58] SPEAKER_01: If we get Lionel and he's passing 30 people, that's a lot of time in red, right?
[8:02] SPEAKER_01: So I mean there's that nuance to it, right?
[8:04] SPEAKER_01: If you're coming from the back.
[8:05] SPEAKER_00: No, because that does get cut out of it.
[8:07] SPEAKER_02: That data should be on, yeah, that data should be on there, right?
[8:09] SPEAKER_02: If you are in the red and then immediately pass, Race Ranger should be able to pick that up and it doesn't like or or maybe it counts as you know, 20 seconds in the red.
[8:17] SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, but still that that adds up, right, over time.
[8:21] SPEAKER_01: And then if you're if you're working with someone legally and then you you guys are taking polls, 10-minute polls, how would you distinguish the data between people like you're technically drafting, but it is legal.
[8:32] SPEAKER_02: No, but they can tell, did you back out or did you pass?
[8:35] SPEAKER_02: The the di devices should be able to discern whether or not you cheated or if you raced fairly and should be able to say how many times did you cheat, how much time did you spend in the red and back out, or every time you read you you were in the red, did you go by?
[8:50] SPEAKER_02: I mean, and maybe that's not in the data, and that's why they're being sensitive about releasing it.
[8:55] SPEAKER_02: I can totally see that.
[8:57] SPEAKER_02: You need as much context as you probably can possibly have for something like this.
[9:02] SPEAKER_00: So read the data.
[9:03] SPEAKER_00: Let's say you have 25 seconds allotted to pass or 45 seconds allotted to pass, that time gets cut out of it.
[9:10] SPEAKER_00: So if you've made the pass inside that and your light was red for that time, that gets cut out.
[9:15] SPEAKER_00: It's only the time post that.
[9:17] SPEAKER_00: So say if you have 25 seconds to pass, but it takes you 30 seconds, you'll have five seconds of of drafting come up on the data.
[9:24] SPEAKER_00: So that's easy.
[9:25] SPEAKER_00: They've sorted that out.
[9:27] SPEAKER_00: But I I don't, I don't like I think it is simple, Ari, like you, like you're saying, that yes, just release it.
[9:32] SPEAKER_00: That's just what it's going to be.
[9:34] SPEAKER_00: Someone always has to be number one on the first list released.
[9:37] SPEAKER_00: And we'll just get used to it and used to it and used to it.
[9:39] SPEAKER_00: But this is the point.
[9:40] SPEAKER_00: Felix is such a nice guy that he'd be playing lead on this.
[9:44] SPEAKER_00: So Race Ranger wouldn't be playing lead on this, they'd be being led by Felix.
[9:49] SPEAKER_00: So Felix will be deciding how this gets released, when it gets released, etc.
[9:52] SPEAKER_00: etc.
[9:53] SPEAKER_00: Because remember, he's employing Race Ranger.
[9:56] SPEAKER_00: So challenge Roth, pay Race Ranger to be there.
[9:59] SPEAKER_00: And so Race Ranger aren't just going to release this data because they wouldn't want to upset one of their clients.
[10:04] SPEAKER_00: So Felix, being the nicest guy in the sport, will be doing everything he can to make sure to make sure that when they release it, it doesn't upset or offend anyone because he's just the kind of guy who wants everyone to come back to Roth.
[10:15] SPEAKER_00: He wouldn't want to upset anyone, and the potential to even somewhat upset someone would would kind of deter him, I think, from what I know.
[10:23] SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's that's interesting.
[10:24] SPEAKER_01: And now that you've framed it that way, it literally would be all time in illegal reading.
[10:30] SPEAKER_01: Like you're you're read and it's been illegal.
[10:32] SPEAKER_01: You went in, you went out.
[10:33] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm in Aries Camp, and I mean it'd be cool if Iron Man did it.
[10:37] SPEAKER_01: I mean, and look, if you're at the top of the list, guess what?
[10:39] SPEAKER_01: You're gonna come back to the next race and you're not gonna be at the top of the list.
[10:43] SPEAKER_01: Like, because if you're at the top of the list every single time and they keep releasing it, like you're just not gonna have a good brand as an athlete, and people are gonna be like commenting on your stuff or whatever it might be.
[10:53] SPEAKER_01: So I think it's kind of what we talked about before.
[10:55] SPEAKER_01: It's about deterrent, right?
[10:57] SPEAKER_01: So like the threat of releasing or saying, hey, we're gonna release it every third race or whatever it might be, or we might release the data depending on what what uh organization are you are.
[11:06] SPEAKER_01: I think most people could wrap their head around that that would be a good thing for the for the racing.
[11:11] SPEAKER_01: Um, I think.
[11:13] SPEAKER_00: And I think the question of race ranger making uh drafting data public, is that a good thing or not?
[11:18] SPEAKER_00: I think universally we can agree it's a good thing.
[11:21] SPEAKER_00: Like everyone everyone thinks that.
[11:24] SPEAKER_00: The only person who might not is someone who really relies on drafting to to have success in races, but I don't actually think that's as real a thing as we think.
[11:35] SPEAKER_00: Um I have a good story about Iron Man and Race Ranger.
[11:40] SPEAKER_00: So we we this this kind of story about Challenge Roth and them releasing the data and being the first to do it, and you guys being like, Well, it would be good if Iron Man did that.
[11:50] SPEAKER_00: In I think it was January or February 2023, so a long time ago, I randomly got a call from the CEO of Iron Man at the time, Andrew Messik.
[12:01] SPEAKER_00: And he asked me if I would be interested in releasing the data of Race Ranger, like um from one of their races, and he said, We want it out there, we want the results public, but we can't do it.
[12:18] SPEAKER_00: Would you be interested?
[12:19] SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yeah, of course.
[12:21] SPEAKER_00: Like, that's that's that'd be fun.
[12:23] SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it never actually ended up happening because Andrew had to go and get approval from everyone and make it happen in a way that you know didn't upset anyone and they couldn't get that tick off.
[12:32] SPEAKER_00: But Andrew Mesik wanted this way back in early 2023.
[12:36] SPEAKER_00: He wanted the the data out there when he was the CEO of Iron Man.
[12:39] SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's so annoying that it didn't come through.
[12:41] SPEAKER_02: And at that point, he's kind of asking you to leak it, so why not just you know leak it?
[12:47] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, he didn't give me any data.
[12:50] SPEAKER_02: Give you a secret a secret files, you know, or has an intern send over a file like over Instagram DMs.
[12:56] SPEAKER_00: No, because I don't think he was trying to do it in a dodgy way.
[12:58] SPEAKER_02: No, but I'm saying he should because he wasn't doing it in a dodgy way, it never saw the light of day.
[13:03] SPEAKER_02: But if somebody was dodgy, if there was some, you know, back channel stuff going on at Iron Man, maybe we would have had this data two years ago.
[13:12] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but he never would.
[13:13] SPEAKER_00: This is the this is the interesting thing about Andrew Mesik, because I really didn't like Andrew Mesik to start, and he really didn't like me.
[13:19] SPEAKER_00: But then we kind of we kind of got on the same page about a lot of things.
[13:22] SPEAKER_00: And Andrew Mesik hates cheating.
[13:24] SPEAKER_00: No one hates cheaters more than Andrew Mesik.
[13:27] SPEAKER_00: He hates dopers, and he's the person really responsible for Iron Man going hard into doping.
[13:32] SPEAKER_00: Like he's always been hard on that, and he hates drafters.
[13:35] SPEAKER_00: Like he would call me frequently and just like shit on someone who he thought had drafted too much in a race.
[13:41] SPEAKER_00: Like he hated it that much.
[13:42] SPEAKER_00: And I think he saw a race around this time where he saw some really bad drafting, and he was like, fuck this.
[13:49] SPEAKER_00: Like, let's get this out there.
[13:50] SPEAKER_00: This we have the race ranger data now, let's make this public.
[13:53] SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I mean, he did eat on the podcast, which I haven't forgiven him for, but he uh he actually he actually was he was on to a good thing earlier with this.
[14:03] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was one of the greatest uh 180s, I think, in uh podcasting history was you managing to become friends with Andrew Mesek.
[14:11] SPEAKER_02: But he's out the door now, and I feel like Scott DeRue would have released the Race Ranger data.
[14:16] SPEAKER_02: But speaking of things going on at Iron Man, it's been two years, they've made some big decisions, most notably uh both sexes going back to Kona uh on the same day, and the even more recently announced performance-based Kona qualifications.
[14:32] SPEAKER_02: So Andrew Mesick at the very end of his tenure at Iron Man did uh come up with the pro series, or I'm I assume it was a team.
[14:41] SPEAKER_02: But what what are your thoughts about you know Iron Man under Scott Darue versus Iron Man under Andrew Mesick?
[14:47] SPEAKER_01: I can't like speak too much to this, to be honest, but I just have I've noticed their like social media and like the willingness to work with pros, maybe hear them out more, seems like Scott is doing more.
[14:59] SPEAKER_01: However, but then you know, maybe behind the scenes, I didn't really know what Andrew was doing.
[15:02] SPEAKER_01: Like he's talking to Jack, he really doesn't want dopers in, he wants people not to cheat.
[15:06] SPEAKER_01: So it's like we're in it, but I'm not.
[15:09] SPEAKER_01: It's like I don't know what Iron Man does at all.
[15:11] SPEAKER_01: I have like no understanding of what they're like who their teams, what what they're really focused on.
[15:16] SPEAKER_01: Obviously, like money and shareholders and things like that.
[15:19] SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, I mean, I think they're just continuing to evolve, and like not that Scott's doing a better job.
[15:25] SPEAKER_01: Maybe we would be in the same position if Andrew were still here, but yeah, I think they're like the listening to the pros and kind of like building us more into their sport, so it seems.
[15:34] SPEAKER_01: Um that's it kind of from my perspective at least.
[15:38] SPEAKER_00: I think the pro series is the biggest thing in triathlon right now, and that's an Andrew Mesik uh baby.
[15:43] SPEAKER_00: So I think that on his way out, probably the best thing Andrew Mesik ever did for Iron Man was the Iron Man Pro Series, and we're seeing benefit under the new leadership of Scott DeRoo because they've got the Iron Man Pro Series.
[15:56] SPEAKER_00: So I I mean I I I think Andrew Mesik he was so obsessed with making his his um his shareholders' money.
[16:04] SPEAKER_00: That's that's Andrew Mesik.
[16:05] SPEAKER_00: He's a businessman through and through.
[16:07] SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that probably got a little bit old because people were crying out for more passion and love just of the sport of triathlon, not for it just to be this big corporate, money-hungry, greedy giant um that Andrew Mesik had sort of turned it into a little bit.
[16:24] SPEAKER_00: And that sounds like an insult, but it's really not.
[16:26] SPEAKER_00: Like Iron Man is I think it's the second biggest events company in the world, if not even the biggest right now.
[16:32] SPEAKER_00: So Andrew Mesig was very successful at making a lot of people a lot of money.
[16:36] SPEAKER_00: However, I think what Scott DeRoo and his kind of legacy is starting to be is that they are leaning back into hey, what do the people want?
[16:46] SPEAKER_00: What are the people crying out for?
[16:47] SPEAKER_00: How can we make that happen?
[16:48] SPEAKER_00: That's been shown by the move from um the split world championships to getting both sexes back at Kona on the one day.
[16:55] SPEAKER_00: I think that's just a just a direct result of Scott DeRue and his leadership trying to make the people happy.
[17:02] SPEAKER_00: And I mean, a few, there's a few other things.
[17:04] SPEAKER_00: The Kona qualification, again, I feel like that's one for the people.
[17:07] SPEAKER_00: So I think Scott DeRue and his leadership have gone, okay, what were people not liking about what was happening here?
[17:15] SPEAKER_00: Well, they felt they probably felt like Iron Man was turning a bit heartless and a bit, a bit like kind of Tin Man and just caring about money.
[17:22] SPEAKER_00: So how do we get the people back on side?
[17:24] SPEAKER_00: And like you said, Greg, the the social media's been a big part of that.
[17:27] SPEAKER_00: They're leaning into making the sport fun and accessible, and they're trying to tick off a few things that they think the majority of people are gonna want, like the like the Kona and the Kona qualifications.
[17:37] SPEAKER_00: So that's the difference.
[17:38] SPEAKER_00: I think overall the the Pro Series is the thing that's dominating right now.
[17:42] SPEAKER_00: So that's credit to Andrew Mesik, but Scott DeRoo's doing a lot right.
[17:46] SPEAKER_02: I I agree.
[17:47] SPEAKER_02: It's much more personable, and it makes me feel like we're gonna get a 20-meter draft zone for the pros somewhat soon.
[17:56] SPEAKER_02: It's just something that everyone's been crying out for for a long time, and the type of thing that uh Andrew Mesek didn't really care to listen to, but Scott DeRoo might.
[18:06] SPEAKER_02: Um so I just have this feeling that it's it's coming sooner rather than later.
[18:10] SPEAKER_02: But yeah, also totally in agreement.
[18:12] SPEAKER_02: The Iron Man Pro series is uh uh it's the thing this year.
[18:16] SPEAKER_02: I mean, with T-100's still on, and I find myself not getting that excited to watch the T-100 races, whereas when the the Start list drop for like Iron Man Frankfurt a couple weeks ago, that was like a big deal.
[18:29] SPEAKER_02: Like not even the race being on, just like, oh man, start list is out.
[18:33] SPEAKER_02: We got some hitters on here.
[18:34] SPEAKER_02: This race is gonna be crazy.
[18:36] SPEAKER_02: Uh it's yeah, it's really um they have some work to do on the broadcast, but the event itself, the racing, the personalities, the names, the dynamics, uh, you know, just the things that that go on during the races are the most entertaining thing happening this year.
[18:52] SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll I'll say one more thing because you know you mentioned, Jack, that the Kona qualification, you know, going back to Kona is is for the people.
[19:00] SPEAKER_01: And well, it is, yes.
[19:01] SPEAKER_01: But I could also argue that it's for money as well.
[19:06] SPEAKER_01: I mean, people want to go to Kona, right?
[19:08] SPEAKER_01: So people are gonna race more to try to go to Kona.
[19:11] SPEAKER_01: And now that it's it seems like it's gonna be harder, right, to go to Kona, are they trying to like bring back this like allure of the Kona?
[19:17] SPEAKER_01: It's like me more exclusive maybe than it has in the past.
[19:20] SPEAKER_01: There's less people.
[19:22] SPEAKER_01: Do you think that can make them more money in the end?
[19:24] SPEAKER_01: If people have to race more, they have to chase, you know, whatever it might be, chase more races to try to get there and kind of bring back not that it's not prestigious, like if you've qualified for Kona, that's amazing.
[19:34] SPEAKER_01: But if it's even harder, then all of a sudden you're yeah, you might be the pocketbooks, pocketbooks might feel better for the for the shareholders as well, because people have to race more to try to achieve it.
[19:45] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
[19:47] SPEAKER_00: I think it it's it goes hand in hand that if you have happy clients, you have clients who are going to spend more money on your business.
[19:53] SPEAKER_00: So for sure, there's always a bit a business and money-making undercurrent to anything that a that a business as successful as what Iron Man does.
[20:02] SPEAKER_00: But to Ari's point, I do also think that they're just way more likely at the moment to do things that the majority of people want.
[20:08] SPEAKER_00: 20-meter draft zone is coming.
[20:10] SPEAKER_00: Like it's a hard it will happen within the next couple of years under Scott DeRoo.
[20:14] SPEAKER_00: It's it just seems to be what they want to do is that whatever people are crying out for, Scott DeRoo's leadership is going to make happen.
[20:21] SPEAKER_00: So I think you're right, Greg, that yes, ultimately they're doing it because they feel like there's a way for it to make them more money and bring back the prestige to Kona, and that means that more people are going to do more races to qualify, and they're just not going to be as unhappy at Iron Man and and like not want to go and do their races.
[20:39] SPEAKER_00: So, yes, I think I think both things can be true.
[20:42] SPEAKER_00: Ari, you touched on the T-100 and not being as excited about that.
[20:45] SPEAKER_00: We heard what Sam Appleton had to say about that a couple of weeks ago on the show.
[20:50] SPEAKER_00: Sam Renouf confirmed during the week that the T-100 are making a bid to be added to the Olympics in the future.
[20:56] SPEAKER_00: What do you think of this?
[20:57] SPEAKER_00: Could this be the thing that kind of brings back your excitement for the T100 and saves it for lack of a better, a better term?
[21:04] SPEAKER_02: Yes and no.
[21:06] SPEAKER_02: Um, for me, no, outside of the Olympics.
[21:11] SPEAKER_02: Like I would be hyped to watch the you know, the T-100 format, the 100k distance at the Olympics.
[21:16] SPEAKER_02: I think it would help the T100 blow up more with the the general populace, the people who watch track and field every four years, and the people who watch swimming and triathlon every four years, they would maybe say, Oh, well, you know, there's eight, ten broadcasts a year of this cool event.
[21:33] SPEAKER_02: Whereas, you know, there's not that much track and swimming on all year.
[21:37] SPEAKER_02: People might want to watch it, but the the broadcasting of those sports isn't very good.
[21:40] SPEAKER_02: Whereas the broadcasting of T100 is amazing.
[21:44] SPEAKER_02: So if you people are tuning into the Olympics every four years and they're like, This event is is awesome, um, and they do a good job sort of selling it, then yeah, it could bring a huge audience uh to triathlon.
[21:56] SPEAKER_02: But I kind of I I'm trying to put my favorite.
[22:00] SPEAKER_02: On why I am not as excited about T100 this year as last year.
[22:06] SPEAKER_02: And I I don't want to say it's the names and personalities per se.
[22:11] SPEAKER_02: Um, because I think Martin Van Riel's a great personality.
[22:14] SPEAKER_02: I think Rico Bogan's a great personality, and and Yellow Geans.
[22:18] SPEAKER_02: And you know, I like the guys who are are racing, but I feel like maybe their skill sets are all too similar, and it ends up feeling like a draft legal race, which just is never as exciting to watch as somebody trying to bust it open from the gun, which happens in long course racing.
[22:37] SPEAKER_02: I mean, I feel like that's what the rules of long course racing are designed to do, is someone who can't run very well has to play their card on the bike, and the non-drafting aspect of it makes it possible for them to have a chance at it.
[22:50] SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I yeah, so I don't know if T-100 has just become maybe more vanilla in that regard to me.
[22:57] SPEAKER_02: Like there just doesn't seem to be too many fireworks going on in the races.
[23:01] SPEAKER_02: Nobody's like way off the front on on most of the courses.
[23:04] SPEAKER_02: Granted, San Francisco was a little bit different, but that that's the uh exception, not the rule.
[23:09] SPEAKER_02: So that's where I'm at with T-100, and I don't think that an Olympic bid, if successful, would change that for me.
[23:16] SPEAKER_02: But I think it would change it for the the general audience watching Triathlon and expand it potentially.
[23:22] SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna hard disagree with Ari because I just don't think a casual fan would care about a 100k race.
[23:28] SPEAKER_01: Like for the Olympics, it just adds nothing to me.
[23:31] SPEAKER_01: I think a super sprint is way more exciting than a T100.
[23:33] SPEAKER_01: I think a casual fan.
[23:34] SPEAKER_01: And you're wrong that like track and field has tons of broadcasts all year.
[23:39] SPEAKER_01: If you're a track fan, you're watching a lot of track.
[23:41] SPEAKER_01: Swimming fan, same thing.
[23:42] SPEAKER_01: There's plenty of swim broadcasts.
[23:44] SPEAKER_01: We just don't know because no one cares.
[23:46] SPEAKER_01: No one is gonna care outside of the sport of triathlon about triathlon outside the Olympics.
[23:50] SPEAKER_01: And we don't need a third triathlon in the Olympics.
[23:53] SPEAKER_01: I think we need one triathlon in the Olympics and it should just be a sprint distance race.
[23:57] SPEAKER_01: And then that should be the whole Olympics.
[23:58] SPEAKER_01: I think that would be the most fun.
[24:00] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I don't know if it's you know how T-100 would even brand it.
[24:04] SPEAKER_01: You know, if it's part of the Olympics, could they even call it a T-100?
[24:07] SPEAKER_01: Like, I I don't even know how that would work with their whole branding thing, but I just think it's like I I don't know.
[24:13] SPEAKER_01: Uh people would know Iron Man.
[24:14] SPEAKER_01: If you're like, we're putting an Iron Man in the Olympics, people would be like, oh, whoa, that's crazy because Iron Man has history.
[24:19] SPEAKER_01: The thing about the T-100 and everything that's missing, there's no history yet, so we just can't care that much.
[24:25] SPEAKER_01: If if there's no history, people don't care.
[24:28] SPEAKER_01: It's like the pre-classic in track, like we just talked about, versus the Grand Slam.
[24:32] SPEAKER_01: It's like people care about the pre-classic, there's history, no one cares about Grand Slam because there's no history.
[24:37] SPEAKER_00: Also, last year, according to the T-100, they released stats on their TV viewership and their streaming viewership.
[24:45] SPEAKER_00: They have released that they had 50 million TV and streaming viewers globally across their seven races last year, including 10 million in Lake Las Vegas and 10 million in Dubai.
[24:58] SPEAKER_00: So are we just too close to it that we don't see that it is, or well, I'm I'm saying we I really talk about you, are you are we just too close to it so you don't see that it is doing better than what you think?
[25:08] SPEAKER_00: And maybe because you're just uh like into Iron Man at the moment that that doesn't speak to what the majority of people are thinking, or do you think those numbers just aren't real?
[25:18] SPEAKER_02: Uh can can you give me some frame of reference?
[25:21] SPEAKER_02: Like Iron Man would not be touching that.
[25:24] SPEAKER_02: I have no idea.
[25:25] SPEAKER_02: 10 million in a single race?
[25:27] SPEAKER_02: Like, and is it it's like 10 million unique viewers or 10 million different times it was tuned in?
[25:33] SPEAKER_02: I didn't see yeah, I didn't see these statistics.
[25:36] SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't know what to make of them.
[25:38] SPEAKER_02: That does seem like a lot, and I know they have a lot of different broadcasting partners across the world.
[25:44] SPEAKER_02: I would love to know average watch time.
[25:46] SPEAKER_02: Is it just people flipping through channels and they're like, what the hell is going on?
[25:50] SPEAKER_01: It's the bot, it's the bot farmers, right?
[25:52] SPEAKER_01: The bot farms that they hire.
[25:54] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I don't know.
[25:56] SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it seems a little bit much because if you go on you know the YouTubes, I mean we don't get the T100.
[26:02] SPEAKER_01: Oh no, we do.
[26:03] SPEAKER_01: It's like there's like 30,000 people.
[26:05] SPEAKER_01: So to go from that from a YouTube channel, which is essentially everyone in America, maybe others, to get up to 10 million seems like a stretch to me.
[26:14] SPEAKER_01: So who who really knows?
[26:16] SPEAKER_01: The more date more uh more information is needed for sure to really compare.
[26:20] SPEAKER_02: Well, Greg, you kind of answered my next question for me, uh, which is what is the T100 missing?
[26:28] SPEAKER_02: And I kind of said maybe it's the the the racing itself doesn't seem that exciting.
[26:35] SPEAKER_01: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[26:36] SPEAKER_02: Read the second part of the question, sir.
[26:38] SPEAKER_02: What is the T100 missing?
[26:41] SPEAKER_02: Why do I not give a fuck?
[26:44] SPEAKER_02: And I think I think it does come down to there's no history.
[26:48] SPEAKER_02: Like I think that I I kind of care about the individual races.
[26:52] SPEAKER_02: I like to watch them.
[26:54] SPEAKER_02: I like you know, it's the best athletes in the world going head to head.
[26:57] SPEAKER_02: And um I think sometimes when the courses are, especially like you know, hilly bike courses, or maybe there's you know, orcas in the water and it's it's a really choppy ocean swim.
[27:09] SPEAKER_02: Uh and and things just break up a little bit.
[27:11] SPEAKER_02: But I find it so disinteresting when there is a 20-man front pack, and then it's you know, five, six guys break away on the bike, and then those five or six guys end up battling for the win in the podium spots.
[27:26] SPEAKER_01: But that's Iron Man.
[27:28] SPEAKER_02: Uh not always.
[27:29] SPEAKER_02: Iron Man, way more commonly, you have one guy blowing his load on the bike because that's the only card he has, and then he tries to stay away, and then the great runners you know come and run him down.
[27:41] SPEAKER_02: And sometimes Iron Man is that.
[27:42] SPEAKER_02: Sometimes Iron Man is worse than that and way more boring.
[27:45] SPEAKER_02: But uh I'm starting to think that if T-100 had been going on for 40 years, I would start to really care about who the T-100 world champion was.
[27:55] SPEAKER_02: Because I yeah, I would find it more impressive and prestigious.
[27:58] SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I am also curious to hear your thoughts, Jack.
[28:01] SPEAKER_00: I I don't think that the racing or the athletes are any more exciting or interesting at Iron Man versus T-100.
[28:07] SPEAKER_00: I think the issue right now that a lot of people are having, myself included, is not buying into the individual races of the T-100 World Tour.
[28:17] SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, how excited are you for T100 London?
[28:21] SPEAKER_00: Which really is their big marquee event.
[28:23] SPEAKER_00: It's their home race, it's T100's home race, it's it's massive.
[28:28] SPEAKER_00: But I'm not that invested in the individual race.
[28:31] SPEAKER_00: I couldn't even really tell you, well, which which males and females that are contracted are going to be there, which ones aren't.
[28:38] SPEAKER_00: I'm not I'm just struggling with the individual races.
[28:41] SPEAKER_00: And we've heard it so many times on this podcast, and it's all over social media, that the pinnacle of the PTO and T-100 so far was 2023 when we had the European Open, the Asian Open, and the US Open.
[28:53] SPEAKER_00: That shit was hype.
[28:55] SPEAKER_00: Like Jarn winning at the US Open, that battle in Ibiza was just epic.
[29:00] SPEAKER_00: I like that that whole season, that so far was when the the PTO and the T-100 was at its best.
[29:06] SPEAKER_00: And it's because it was limited, the racing was awesome, the fields were stacked.
[29:12] SPEAKER_00: And I think I think just the number of races, it kind of all gets a little bit blurry.
[29:18] SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh yeah, another T100 race is on, I'll watch that, but you're not super, super invested in each race like maybe we were in 2023.
[29:25] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I don't know whether the solution to that is just to go to a few less races or to make the races mean a little bit more or to have more variation in the races.
[29:35] SPEAKER_00: Because right now it kind of is just a bit F1, where it's just like every race is kind of the same.
[29:40] SPEAKER_00: There's there's not too much individual excitement for each race, it's just another T100 race.
[29:45] SPEAKER_00: That's that's my main concern right now.
[29:47] SPEAKER_02: But it but it's interesting that you say that because F1 is like huge right now.
[29:53] SPEAKER_02: You know, F1 uh has huge viewership and the drivers are making shitloads of money.
[29:58] SPEAKER_02: So and I've heard that before.
[30:00] SPEAKER_02: I don't watch F1.
[30:01] SPEAKER_02: I I I have I have like basically watched over someone's shoulder while they kind of explained some things to me one time, and I was like, oh, that's cool, you know.
[30:10] SPEAKER_02: And so people even people who watch F1 say that it's kind of boring.
[30:15] SPEAKER_02: I've heard that.
[30:17] SPEAKER_02: So how is it like was it just that Netflix doc?
[30:20] SPEAKER_02: Was it just drive to survive?
[30:21] SPEAKER_00: Two factors.
[30:22] SPEAKER_00: F1 is cool as fuck.
[30:24] SPEAKER_00: Like F1 is the like pinnacle of human engineering, it's the fastest cars in the world.
[30:29] SPEAKER_00: The the people who are driving them are cool, they're like all dating models, they're all rich as hell, they all live in Monaco.
[30:35] SPEAKER_00: It's obviously got so many.
[30:37] SPEAKER_02: Triathletes aren't dating hard enough people, but you know what I mean?
[30:40] SPEAKER_00: Like that's a solution.
[30:42] SPEAKER_00: Everyone, every male, and I think even female would love to be an F1 driver.
[30:47] SPEAKER_00: Like, that's cool.
[30:48] SPEAKER_00: Not everyone's being like, oh, all I want in life is to be a professional triathlete.
[30:52] SPEAKER_00: That's the pinnacle of cool.
[30:53] SPEAKER_00: We're not we're not the pinnacle of cool, no endurance sport is.
[30:57] SPEAKER_00: And also the T100 is so new compared to F1, like the F1 hasn't always been this big.
[31:02] SPEAKER_00: Um, and then also Drive to Survive just kicked it off to a whole new level, which by the way, I think Triathlon needs a reality TV show.
[31:08] SPEAKER_00: I think that could be cool.
[31:09] SPEAKER_00: But like, yeah, T100, like Yala Geans, Martin Van Riel, Rico Bogan, Kyle Smith, Meek.
[31:15] SPEAKER_02: The pinnacle of cool man.
[31:17] SPEAKER_00: These are all like some of the best, most exciting triathletes in the world.
[31:20] SPEAKER_00: On the women, you've got Taylor Nib, Julie Duron, Ash Gentle.
[31:23] SPEAKER_00: Like we have Kate Waff.
[31:25] SPEAKER_00: I think T-100 has all the ingredients.
[31:27] SPEAKER_00: They just need some tweaks to make people more invested in each individual race.
[31:31] SPEAKER_00: Um, I I was listening to a podcast the other day about a from a really high-up um decision maker in soccer, and he said that the key to having engaged audiences is to give them things that they're very excited about very regularly.
[31:47] SPEAKER_00: And to do that, you have to make each individual thing have something on the line.
[31:52] SPEAKER_00: So he talked about how, and I'm not a soccer man, so I don't understand, but they have like different leagues, like the Champions League and the Premier League, and they have these things throughout the year that actually mean something.
[32:03] SPEAKER_00: And so each individual race of the T100 probably doesn't mean enough, is my big thing.
[32:09] SPEAKER_00: They need to, I don't know what it is, but they need to have injections.
[32:12] SPEAKER_00: He used the word injections a lot.
[32:14] SPEAKER_00: You need to have three, four, five injections throughout a year that mean something to keep people engaged.
[32:20] SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so I think T100 just need the injections rather than just go the F1 model of lots of the same races, because we're not as cool as or as exciting as F1.
[32:27] SPEAKER_00: So that will get a little bit dull and boring.
[32:29] SPEAKER_01: Well, and you said it, Jack, it was 2023 with their four opens that with big money.
[32:35] SPEAKER_01: Those were the injections, right?
[32:37] SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like I feel like you're kind of right that they had the model.
[32:40] SPEAKER_01: When and when you put big money, then you get all the people too.
[32:44] SPEAKER_01: Like, we all want to see the Norwegians on at races, but like now they're kind of blacklisted because they like turned down contracts.
[32:51] SPEAKER_01: Like, that's just not the way.
[32:52] SPEAKER_01: Like, you want as many big names as you can.
[32:55] SPEAKER_01: So I think I think going back to four and world champion?
[32:59] SPEAKER_01: I mean, what do you guys think?
[33:00] SPEAKER_01: Do you think a T100 world champion is actually real?
[33:04] SPEAKER_01: It's like no one, no one really cares.
[33:06] SPEAKER_01: In 20 years, maybe they would, but at this point, it's like and they hype it up too much almost.
[33:12] SPEAKER_01: Hey, oh, world champion, world, and you know, Martin Van Riel was like, Oh, I've always wanted to be world champion.
[33:17] SPEAKER_01: I'm like, sorry, dude, you're kind of not still.
[33:20] SPEAKER_01: I don't mean to be mean.
[33:21] SPEAKER_01: You're an amazing trahlete, but like until you win an Iron Man world champion, or like you win the WCTS, or you're an Olympic medalist, like, are you truly a world champion?
[33:30] SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
[33:31] SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel like it to me.
[33:33] SPEAKER_00: I think you're right.
[33:33] SPEAKER_00: They did have the model.
[33:34] SPEAKER_00: That's the irony of the T100.
[33:36] SPEAKER_00: They had the model before the T100 that I think could have been mega successful, and they can still pivot back to the question is just like can it make enough money for them?
[33:46] SPEAKER_00: So obviously they've gone to more races because more races means more money, whether it's from broadcasters or spot or sponsors.
[33:52] SPEAKER_00: Clearly, that's the the battle here is hey, how many races is the minimum that we can get away with before we stop making money?
[34:00] SPEAKER_00: But then on the flip side to that, bigger races less frequently probably does in the long run end up making them more money.
[34:06] SPEAKER_00: But I think most people agree that the T100 or the PTO did have the model in 2023.
[34:11] SPEAKER_00: And if they had gone all in on that, people like the PTO would be massive now if it was still just three to four big races per year, the the Grand Slam kind of method of tennis and the major method of golf.
[34:22] SPEAKER_00: I think I think that's the winner.
[34:23] SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I'd love to see him go back to it.
[34:26] SPEAKER_01: Well, and you and you get the big names, right?
[34:27] SPEAKER_01: And kind of kind of speaking of big names, someone who turned down a T100 contract this year.
[34:33] SPEAKER_01: Now, he just went to Roth and won the race.
[34:36] SPEAKER_01: My question is, was Sam Lelo really sick and not training all year?
[34:42] SPEAKER_01: Do you really believe that he averaged 10 hours a week of training?
[34:45] SPEAKER_01: Or honestly, is it just a bunch of bullshit?
[34:47] SPEAKER_02: Looking back on the whole UU thing that he posted on this YouTube, maybe he was just like.
[34:52] SPEAKER_02: I don't know what I you have to enlighten me on that.
[34:55] SPEAKER_02: He said, he said, what what oh oh that was what was wrong with him.
[34:59] SPEAKER_02: It was a it was a horrible disease called UU, which stands for unexplained underperformance.
[35:06] SPEAKER_02: Then that was that was what he was sick with.
[35:09] SPEAKER_02: Okay.
[35:12] SPEAKER_02: I don't even like that.
[35:13] SPEAKER_02: I that's what he said on his YouTube video.
[35:16] SPEAKER_02: And he I don't know.
[35:16] SPEAKER_02: I was why I I like his YouTube channel.
[35:18] SPEAKER_02: It's well done, whoever's whoever's filming it.
[35:21] SPEAKER_02: Uh and I think there were three or four videos where like the first one he was like, Yeah, I haven't been able to train since Kona.
[35:28] SPEAKER_02: I would train one day, and then the next day I feel terrible.
[35:31] SPEAKER_02: Like just it seemed like some sort of uh you know excessive or chronic fatigue syndrome.
[35:36] SPEAKER_02: And then he went to the Red Bull performance lab and they just kind of measured everything he did and they couldn't figure it out.
[35:42] SPEAKER_02: And so I think they just slapped a label of unexplained underperformance.
[35:46] SPEAKER_02: Like, clearly you're not doing well, but we don't know why.
[35:49] SPEAKER_02: And I it would be crazy if you know the the uh one of the best, or arguably the best, you know, championship Iron Man championship racer of the last few years was trolling everyone so he could like people off his back.
[36:06] SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like blowing up in Kona gets people off your back a little bit.
[36:10] SPEAKER_02: Like I I you know, like he doesn't have a target on his back for the first half of the year because he didn't he didn't defend his title.
[36:17] SPEAKER_02: I d I don't know.
[36:18] SPEAKER_02: That's seems crazy to me, but if you know, if he was training, I guess the strategy worked.
[36:25] SPEAKER_02: Like nobody was really paying attention to him.
[36:28] SPEAKER_02: Nobody everyone was saying, like, nobody's talking about Sam Lalo to uh go repeat at Nice in September.
[36:35] SPEAKER_00: We're gonna come on to that later in the podcast as well.
[36:38] SPEAKER_00: I think the big question remains how impressive was his performance at Roth?
[36:43] SPEAKER_00: Because he won the race and it was a strong field, but it wasn't a world-class, world championship level field.
[36:49] SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, it was it was Sam, it was Jonas Schomburg, Jan Stratman, Vincent Louis, Frederick Funk, that's the top five.
[36:56] SPEAKER_00: How many of those five do we expect to finish, say, in the top 10 or 15 at the Iron Man World Championships this year?
[37:03] SPEAKER_02: I think Jonas Schomberg really alone is the is the litmus test there.
[37:08] SPEAKER_02: Because he was off the front at Frankfurt, which which is one of the most competitive races we've seen this year, and like may maybe could have podiumed that race.
[37:18] SPEAKER_02: So maybe transitive property Sam Laidlow is it is uh you know on the podium with Hogan Hog and uh Christian Blumenfeld in Frankfurt.
[37:28] SPEAKER_02: Plausible.
[37:29] SPEAKER_00: I I mean I think it was a really strong performance.
[37:32] SPEAKER_00: 729 was his finishing time.
[37:34] SPEAKER_00: Last year Magnus went 723, so he's six minutes off what Magnus did last year.
[37:38] SPEAKER_00: Rode four or something minutes slower than him, um, ran three, three and a half minutes slower than him.
[37:44] SPEAKER_00: So I think it was a really strong performance.
[37:46] SPEAKER_00: I don't think it is the best Sam Laidlow performance, like it's hardly 2023 IM World Championship niece Sam Laidlow.
[37:52] SPEAKER_00: So it's plausible that he's been struggling all year and has only trained ten or so average hours.
[37:58] SPEAKER_00: Look, it's still if if if what he's saying is true and that's what his year's been, it's ridiculously impressive.
[38:06] SPEAKER_00: Like beyond words, impressive.
[38:09] SPEAKER_00: So make up your own mind.
[38:10] SPEAKER_00: Has he has he played into it a little bit to take the the kind of um maybe attention off him?
[38:16] SPEAKER_00: Is it just a good storyline and good for sponsors and marketing and good for his YouTube and that kind of thing?
[38:21] SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
[38:22] SPEAKER_00: Like he's a smart guy, don't put anything past him.
[38:24] SPEAKER_00: He knows how to market.
[38:25] SPEAKER_00: He's he's very, very, very in tune with everything, Sam Laidlow.
[38:30] SPEAKER_00: So he he if anyone is able to pull off like a marketing campaign like this and a storyline like this, it's Sam Laidlow.
[38:37] SPEAKER_00: He's smart enough.
[38:38] SPEAKER_00: And if he has done that, well done.
[38:40] SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's worked.
[38:41] SPEAKER_00: And uh, if he wins Iron Man World Championships in Nice, it would be a crazy story that he can tell.
[38:46] SPEAKER_02: Well, before we move on, uh uh this whole 10, 11 hours a week average thing keeps getting thrown around.
[38:53] SPEAKER_02: Like, based on those videos, he like was not training the first several months of the year.
[38:59] SPEAKER_02: So to get it up to 10 or 11 hours average on the year by the end of June or early July, he was probably training quite a bit the last few months.
[39:11] SPEAKER_02: So I don't think he was doing nothing in this build into Roth.
[39:15] SPEAKER_02: I think he probably is a little bit short on fitness going into the race, but it gives me the vibe that he had gotten back into some solid training if he wasn't trolling everybody.
[39:27] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree completely.
[39:28] SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll say one thing.
[39:29] SPEAKER_01: This this is no, this is the accumulation of like his trolling.
[39:32] SPEAKER_01: Like he did it before Nice 2023.
[39:35] SPEAKER_01: Remember everyone like let him go, like, oh Sam.
[39:37] SPEAKER_01: Like he was kind of downplaying it.
[39:39] SPEAKER_01: He's like, oh, I won.
[39:40] SPEAKER_01: What a surprise.
[39:41] SPEAKER_01: And like now, this is like his this is like his this is like his full house he's played.
[39:45] SPEAKER_01: No one's ever gonna take Sam.
[39:47] SPEAKER_01: Like, no one is ever gonna believe what Sam says in terms of training or whatnot ever again at the world champ.
[39:52] SPEAKER_01: They're not gonna be like, oh, Sam, oh yeah, he's not in run shape.
[39:55] SPEAKER_01: You guys watch his latest YouTube?
[39:57] SPEAKER_01: This man hasn't been running.
[39:58] SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, dude, that card is over for Sam Laidlow.
[40:01] SPEAKER_01: Like, he's gonna need to try some new tactics because I sure as hell would not ever buy that that story, that sob story, I can't train ever again.
[40:09] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if Sam Laidlow's on the start line of a big race, he's there to win.
[40:12] SPEAKER_00: Don't be fooled by anything he said.
[40:14] SPEAKER_02: He's learned from the Norwegians and and raised them.
[40:17] SPEAKER_02: He has.
[40:18] SPEAKER_02: Like, it's that's the game.
[40:19] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[40:20] SPEAKER_02: So speaking of the Iron Man World Championships, who are the three?
[40:25] SPEAKER_02: Uh I want each of you to give me your three current men's and women's podium, and then I'll give mine.
[40:32] SPEAKER_02: Let's go women's first.
[40:34] SPEAKER_02: Who's on your women's podium?
[40:35] SPEAKER_02: Mine, I feel like is super obvious.
[40:37] SPEAKER_02: Is this in order or just who's on it?
[40:39] SPEAKER_02: Uh give me a first, second, third.
[40:40] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[40:41] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go three, two, one.
[40:42] SPEAKER_00: I like the countdown.
[40:44] SPEAKER_01: Uh third, I'm gonna go Cat Matthews.
[40:48] SPEAKER_01: Second, I'm going Laura Phillip.
[40:50] SPEAKER_01: First, I'm going Julie Duron, fresh off her 37-minute win last weekend.
[40:56] SPEAKER_00: I like it.
[40:57] SPEAKER_00: I I'm gonna I'm gonna be very similar.
[40:59] SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go third Cat Matthews, second Julie Duron, and first Laura Phillip, and it kills me not to have Taylor Nib there.
[41:07] SPEAKER_02: That's crazy.
[41:08] SPEAKER_02: I'm going third, Taylor Nib, second Laura Phillip, first Cat Matthews.
[41:12] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so for some context here, I think Taylor Nib will lead off the bike and probably by a fair bit.
[41:18] SPEAKER_00: And I think I think Julie Duron will just be wherever Laura Phillip or Cat Matthews are.
[41:22] SPEAKER_00: They could even all come in together.
[41:24] SPEAKER_00: Like I think those three are going to be around the mark.
[41:26] SPEAKER_00: Annie Hag might not even make it at this point, but she'll be nowhere near it.
[41:30] SPEAKER_00: Lucy Charles Barclay could be um with Taylor Nib or maybe get dropped late and be somewhere between Taylor Nib and the Laura Phillip, Cat Matthews, Julie Duron kind of bunch.
[41:40] SPEAKER_00: And I just think it's going to be a run battle between Laura Phillip, Cat Matthews, and Julie Duron.
[41:43] SPEAKER_00: That's how I see it playing playing out with them all catching Taylor Nib at some point and Taylor Nib finishing fourth.
[41:49] SPEAKER_00: I just feel that in the heat, Cat Matthews maybe isn't going to run as well as Laura Phillip and Julie Duron.
[41:57] SPEAKER_00: But I think all three will break the previous course record and it'll be probably the most epic rum battle we've had a women's corner race ever.
[42:06] SPEAKER_00: Like I just I just see this year shaping up so so perfectly for an epic rum battle with the women.
[42:12] SPEAKER_02: It's insane that Lucy Charles Barclay was hardly mentioned in this conversation outside of maybe it should get dropped by Taylor Nib.
[42:23] SPEAKER_02: Like that is how stacked this field is.
[42:26] SPEAKER_02: What's it like all these names in the chat?
[42:29] SPEAKER_02: Uh what about the men's?
[42:30] SPEAKER_00: All right.
[42:31] SPEAKER_00: Uh third, Christian Blumenfeld, second, Martin Van Riel, and first, Sam Laidlow.
[42:38] SPEAKER_02: I actually kind of want to guess Greggs.
[42:40] SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
[42:41] SPEAKER_02: All right, go for it.
[42:42] SPEAKER_02: I just know who's first.
[42:43] SPEAKER_01: No, you don't.
[42:44] SPEAKER_01: Oh.
[42:46] SPEAKER_01: No, I uh yeah, all right, yeah, you know who's first.
[42:50] SPEAKER_01: All right, third, Magnus, second, Martin Van Riel, first, my man, Jonah Schoenberg.
[42:56] SPEAKER_01: Yep.
[42:57] SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's that crazy.
[42:59] SPEAKER_01: It's really not.
[42:59] SPEAKER_01: Like, alright, here.
[43:00] SPEAKER_01: Well, you go first, sorry, then we'll dive into it.
[43:03] SPEAKER_02: I think it's uh God, I have no idea.
[43:06] SPEAKER_02: I think this one's so much tougher to call than the women's, but I'm gonna go third, Martin Van Riel, second Christian Blumenfeld.
[43:15] SPEAKER_02: Uh no, second, Sam Laidlow, first Christian Blumenfeld.
[43:19] SPEAKER_00: So Magnus is only on one of our lists, and Patrick Lang isn't on any of our lists.
[43:25] SPEAKER_01: Well, that's because Jonas has arrived.
[43:27] SPEAKER_01: And look it, if for anyone who's watched Shorecourse Racing, no one races with more heart than Jonas Schoenberg.
[43:32] SPEAKER_01: He goes off the front out of T2 and just blitzes the run every single time.
[43:36] SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it hits.
[43:37] SPEAKER_01: My prediction for Nice is it hits.
[43:39] SPEAKER_01: And I just think Martin might be like, Oh, I'm gonna let Jonas go.
[43:42] SPEAKER_01: The dude's gonna just push so many watts up the climb.
[43:46] SPEAKER_01: He's gonna come off the bike with an eight minute lead, and he just has to run two thirty nine and he'll win the race, most likely.
[43:52] SPEAKER_01: So that's that's how I see it happening.
[43:54] SPEAKER_01: I mean, see it happening, obviously there's so many things that could happen, but I just think it'd be good because like no.
[44:00] SPEAKER_01: Like we said, like you said earlier, no one races like Jonas, dude.
[44:04] SPEAKER_01: Like he just I mean, Christian Hoganhardt didn't make it to say that.
[44:07] SPEAKER_01: I think I mean like you like you like no no you like people going off the front like some dude's gonna go for like this dude races with heart, man.
[44:14] SPEAKER_01: Like I want someone to when Lucy Travis Barkley went wire to wire at Kona, like that was still like one of the greatest races of all time.
[44:20] SPEAKER_01: Like I want that for Jonas Schomberg.
[44:22] SPEAKER_01: And I don't I think he's uh the only one uh with the balls to do it.
[44:25] SPEAKER_00: I think the reason that I have Sam Ladlow and Martin Van Riel ahead of Christian Blumenfeld is Jonas Schomberg.
[44:32] SPEAKER_00: I think Christian gets dropped in the swim by those boys because I think Jonas is gonna push it so hard in the swim, but I don't think he'll drop Sam Ladlow or Martin Van Riel.
[44:41] SPEAKER_00: And then I think early on in the bike, because the bike, it's kind of like a flat run into this kind of punchy section that takes you to the first climb.
[44:49] SPEAKER_00: And those punchy sections, that's the most underrated part of this bike course at Nice.
[44:53] SPEAKER_00: It's so hard.
[44:54] SPEAKER_00: Like it's what split the race up last year as much as the first climb did.
[44:58] SPEAKER_00: And I think Jonas Schomberg's gonna go on those first punchy climbs.
[45:02] SPEAKER_00: And I think Martin Van Riel and Sam Laidlow are gonna have this holy fuck, do we go with this or do we let it go moment?
[45:08] SPEAKER_00: And I think they're both gonna go all in because they're just racers.
[45:10] SPEAKER_00: And so I think we'll have a situation potentially where Jonas Schomberg drags Sam Laidlow and Martin Van Riel off the front of the race and makes it almost impossible for anyone behind to catch up.
[45:21] SPEAKER_00: But then Jonas will completely blow himself up.
[45:23] SPEAKER_00: He won't run, he's not gonna run 232, I don't think.
[45:26] SPEAKER_00: I think he might even struggle to run 240 because he's gonna go so hard on the bike.
[45:30] SPEAKER_00: But I think Sam Laidlow and Martin Van Riel will probably hold on a little bit better than him.
[45:35] SPEAKER_00: So I think Jonas Schomberg's kind of like the key to the Iron Man World Championships this year, as crazy as that is.
[45:40] SPEAKER_00: Um but but also Sam Laidlow could just ride off the front and have an eight-minute lead into T2.
[45:45] SPEAKER_00: So hey, and I think they're what they're kind of the the three who ruined the race for Magnus Dittliff because he won't be there in the swim either.
[45:51] SPEAKER_00: Okay, speaking of the Iron Man World Championships boys, is it possible for a debutante to win either race?
[45:58] SPEAKER_00: I think, Greg, you've given your answer, but let's discuss it a little bit more.
[46:01] SPEAKER_00: Do we think a first timer can win the men's or women's race at this point?
[46:05] SPEAKER_02: Yes.
[46:07] SPEAKER_02: Can, yes.
[46:08] SPEAKER_02: I think I don't think Schomberg is actually a threat to win.
[46:11] SPEAKER_02: I think he's an outside threat to podium, and I think having him as your winner is uh disrespectful to the seasoned veterans of the Iron Man scene.
[46:21] SPEAKER_02: Uh he's very good and and you know, may yet be a contender, but as of now is just a pretender.
[46:28] SPEAKER_02: And Martin Van Riel is the real deal, though.
[46:32] SPEAKER_02: Uh first Iron Man World Championships.
[46:34] SPEAKER_02: I think, I mean, everybody's looking at him.
[46:36] SPEAKER_02: Like other pros are saying, uh, you know, this guy, this guy could do it.
[46:40] SPEAKER_02: He's dangerous, he's light, and he's got probably the best power to weight in the race, potentially.
[46:46] SPEAKER_02: And he I don't think he's not gonna get dropped on the swim, he's not gonna get dropped on the bike.
[46:51] SPEAKER_02: And he pretty you know, he pretty much always runs well.
[46:55] SPEAKER_02: Uh I yeah, I can't really see him coming into T2 too far back.
[47:02] SPEAKER_02: It's just the Iron Man distance run, you know, the marathon off a bike that hard.
[47:08] SPEAKER_02: I feel like it favors a guy like Christian Blumenfeld, like Patrick Lange, you know, more so than it does a Martin.
[47:15] SPEAKER_02: But I we don't really know yet.
[47:17] SPEAKER_02: He's pretty raw, you know, in in terms of full distance racing.
[47:21] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he hasn't quite been tested at that at that level of bike, has he?
[47:25] SPEAKER_01: No, I think that those are good thoughts.
[47:26] SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's funny because 10 years ago, just talking about Kona, no one's ever waltzed up to Kona and won.
[47:34] SPEAKER_01: Okay, so if we talk about the women's race, it's like, I mean, I said Julie Duron.
[47:37] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Julie Duron.
[47:38] SPEAKER_01: I think an Olympic medalist has a shot, and we never saw it before Gustav in Kona, right?
[47:43] SPEAKER_01: Like you you can't just I mean, Mark Allen failed what five times, six times in a row before he won it six times, you know.
[47:49] SPEAKER_01: So that race is historically super hard.
[47:52] SPEAKER_01: I think it takes someone to caliber like Julie Duron, like an Olympic medalist, to come in there and win.
[47:56] SPEAKER_01: You know, you saw Taylor Nibb get would she get fourth that one year?
[48:00] SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, she was like she was wearing a road helmet.
[48:03] SPEAKER_02: She was like into the camera.
[48:05] SPEAKER_01: Like I'm just gonna.
[48:07] SPEAKER_01: It's super hard.
[48:08] SPEAKER_01: And I think Martin has a shot, just like you said, Ari.
[48:11] SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, other than that, but Yonish and Martin have shots, I would say, on the Nice course when it's like it's climbing, it's technical, that's what these guys do.
[48:19] SPEAKER_01: It's a f easy, I mean, easy run, it's not crazy hot.
[48:22] SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's flat.
[48:24] SPEAKER_01: So I think it's like more in these guys' wheelhouses.
[48:26] SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't pick either of them to win in Kona for their first time, uh, I don't think.
[48:30] SPEAKER_01: But you think Julie Duran can?
[48:32] SPEAKER_00: For me, I absolutely think that two debutants can win.
[48:35] SPEAKER_00: I think Martin and Julie can win.
[48:37] SPEAKER_00: I mean, Julie is a Brett Sutton student.
[48:39] SPEAKER_00: And look what he nearly did it with Daniela Reef.
[48:42] SPEAKER_00: She was leading by like almost 20 minutes when on her debut ended up coming second because she blew up the last 10k of the run and Mirinda Carfrey got her.
[48:50] SPEAKER_00: But this is what Brett Sutton does.
[48:52] SPEAKER_00: He just makes women who can win the Iron Man World Championships at Kona.
[48:55] SPEAKER_00: He's been doing it for like 20 years.
[48:57] SPEAKER_00: No one's done more, done it more than him.
[48:59] SPEAKER_00: And Julie Duron's just his latest soldier.
[49:01] SPEAKER_00: So she absolutely can.
[49:03] SPEAKER_00: And I actually think that Julie Duron's going to be so much better at the Iron Man World Championships at Kona than she has been at short distance or middle distance.
[49:10] SPEAKER_00: I think that's her that's her jam, um, which is crazy because she came second at the Olympics and uh we've seen what she's doing at T100.
[49:17] SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I I almost I almost think you can guarantee that Julie Duron will finish her career as someone who was known for what they did at the Iron Man distance, and those kind of things will almost be forgotten.
[49:27] SPEAKER_00: That's how good she's gonna be, in my opinion.
[49:30] SPEAKER_00: Um so she absolutely can.
[49:31] SPEAKER_00: And Martin Van Riel, he absolutely can as well.
[49:34] SPEAKER_00: No one no one trains harder than that guy, no one prepares better than that guy.
[49:37] SPEAKER_00: He won't he won't blow up on the marathon.
[49:39] SPEAKER_00: He'll run the slowest he'll run on that Nice course is 236, I reckon.
[49:43] SPEAKER_00: So he'll be there, and if he's there in T2, he's gonna be a hard man to beat.
[49:47] SPEAKER_02: Are there any debutants we haven't mentioned?
[49:50] SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean they would be pretty low-key, but it's really just them two.
[49:54] SPEAKER_00: In my opinion, yeah, they're the they're the big two.
[49:56] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you said this interesting thing about Martin Van Riel.
[50:00] SPEAKER_02: No one trains harder than him.
[50:02] SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's true?
[50:04] SPEAKER_00: I think it's close, yeah.
[50:05] SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying no one trains harder than him, but he definitely he definitely is not someone who's gonna underprepare.
[50:10] SPEAKER_02: So which male and female triathlete do you think train the hardest?
[50:16] SPEAKER_02: And this is kind of impossible to to really know.
[50:18] SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess Jack would have the best idea of the three of us because Jack, you spend your you spend your life talking to athletes about how they train.
[50:26] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is a good question.
[50:28] SPEAKER_00: I've never thought about this.
[50:29] SPEAKER_00: Which individual male and female train the hardest?
[50:32] SPEAKER_00: I don't think anyone's ever in the history of Trithon, just cliche as that is me saying that, talk to more professionals about their training.
[50:40] SPEAKER_00: Like I've spent the last four almost five years doing it every week.
[50:44] SPEAKER_00: Bob Babbitt.
[50:45] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, Bob doesn't really talk about their training, he's more like, what did you eat for breakfast?
[50:49] SPEAKER_00: You know, how's the family?
[50:51] SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
[50:52] SPEAKER_00: He's too nice.
[50:53] SPEAKER_00: He doesn't want to ask the hard hidden questions, like he doesn't want to know about their brick sessions, he wants to know about, you know, yeah, how their how their relationship is and that kind of thing.
[51:02] SPEAKER_00: Um, just joking, Bob.
[51:04] SPEAKER_00: Uh also me and Bob talked the other day.
[51:07] SPEAKER_00: You talked to the enemy of the show.
[51:10] SPEAKER_00: He loves it.
[51:11] SPEAKER_00: He thinks it's hilarious.
[51:12] SPEAKER_00: He genuinely was pissing himself laughing about it.
[51:15] SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't sure.
[51:16] SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm like, will Bob actually get this joke?
[51:18] SPEAKER_00: Uh he loved it.
[51:19] SPEAKER_00: He's he he wanted it to keep going.
[51:21] SPEAKER_00: Um And he he said that it it would be good if he said it'd be good if we got out to Kona and could hang out with him and do the breakfast with Bob stuff and that kind of thing with him.
[51:30] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, maybe he's becoming a friend of the show.
[51:32] SPEAKER_00: Um back to your question, oh, which male and female trifle train the hardest?
[51:35] SPEAKER_00: I this is a good question.
[51:36] SPEAKER_00: Magnus Didlif trains very, very hard.
[51:39] SPEAKER_00: Uh I think we heard Christian Hoganhag's training that to me that sounded pretty incredibly hard.
[51:45] SPEAKER_00: Um uh female, uh, this is harder.
[51:50] SPEAKER_00: Um, I think Lucy Charles Barclay trains very hard.
[51:53] SPEAKER_00: I think Julie Duron trains very, very hard.
[51:56] SPEAKER_00: Uh Taylor Nibb, she trains very, very hard.
[52:00] SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, they're probably some modern.
[52:03] SPEAKER_02: Well, everyone good trains very, very hard.
[52:05] SPEAKER_02: Well, I guess a better question would be: is there anyone who is world-class who doesn't train very, very hard?
[52:09] SPEAKER_02: I was gonna ask this.
[52:10] SPEAKER_02: Because I'm not asking about who trains very, very hard.
[52:13] SPEAKER_02: It's like I hear stories in my head, who pops in first is Christian Blumenfeld and Lucy Charles Barkley.
[52:20] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[52:20] SPEAKER_02: Because it's just over the past few years you hear you know other pros going on media talking about those guys train crazy.
[52:27] SPEAKER_02: Like those people are legitimately crazy.
[52:29] SPEAKER_02: And I feel like I've heard it about those two more than anybody else.
[52:35] SPEAKER_01: And Christian has been like studied in scientific studies.
[52:38] SPEAKER_01: It's like his training volume analyzed over three or four years, and it's not like, oh, Christian says he does 30 hour weeks and he doesn't, but then you like average it and whatever.
[52:47] SPEAKER_01: Like this guy is literally training really hard and a lot very consistently.
[52:51] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like it's not even the hours, it's the intensity.
[52:54] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but with with with hours too.
[52:57] SPEAKER_00: Sam Long trains hard too.
[52:59] SPEAKER_02: I would love to.
[53:00] SPEAKER_02: I feel like Sam Long would not last with Christian.
[53:03] SPEAKER_01: No, I think he would.
[53:04] SPEAKER_01: Like, I think when you talk about like kilojoules on the bike or something like this, like has anyone put down more watts over the last five years than Sam Long?
[53:15] SPEAKER_01: I believe Magnus Titlov has.
[53:19] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, probably.
[53:20] SPEAKER_01: You think so?
[53:21] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think Sam's probably done less now, and maybe in the last year or two, but like he he was also doing yeah, bigger stuff, it seemed in the past.
[53:28] SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
[53:29] SPEAKER_01: I just feel like Sam is uh just an absolute workhorse, which is why he is what he is.
[53:34] SPEAKER_00: I was chatting to Magnus and his team, I think it was like I can't remember when, but it was prior to last year's World Championships, and he'd been riding like 17 to 21 hours a week and running 120k.
[53:45] SPEAKER_00: Like Magnus trains hard.
[53:47] SPEAKER_00: Magnus just goes to altitude camps pretty much by himself.
[53:50] SPEAKER_00: He doesn't really train with anything.
[53:51] SPEAKER_00: That's the other amazing thing about Magnus, and he just trains hard.
[53:55] SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I mean, I think Magnus is the the one who comes to mind for me, and uh yeah, I don't know.
[54:01] SPEAKER_00: I think Taylor Taylor Nib trains bloody hard.
[54:03] SPEAKER_00: I reckon people would be shocked by just how hard she's trained over the years, but I think she's training easier now under Dan Lorang than what she was under Ian O'Brien.
[54:11] SPEAKER_00: I think Taylor, Taylor Nib under Ian O'Brien was training like a psychopath.
[54:15] SPEAKER_00: And I also think the Joel Filio boys like Yala and Martin, I think they were training crazy under Joel, but they've kind of eased things off a bit now as well.
[54:23] SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
[54:24] SPEAKER_01: Well, we talk about training and stuff, and then you talk about recovery, and you know, we all speculate on who trains the hardest and all this.
[54:31] SPEAKER_01: But this is kind of like a segue into something else that goes along with this hard training.
[54:36] SPEAKER_01: And we're watching the Tour de France, and we all think about it when we watch these guys blast up the hills.
[54:40] SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, so do pro do professional athletes have the right to speak up about performances that they think might be suspect?
[54:48] SPEAKER_01: Or maybe is being suspicious of an athlete who hasn't tested positive, is that lame as hell?
[54:55] SPEAKER_01: Like, where where do we draw the line?
[54:56] SPEAKER_01: Can you speak up about your competitors?
[54:58] SPEAKER_01: Is it disrespectful?
[55:00] SPEAKER_01: You know, d where do where do we do it?
[55:03] SPEAKER_01: Where do we draw the line here in sport like this?
[55:06] SPEAKER_02: I'm personally, I get a little bit tired of it.
[55:10] SPEAKER_02: I don't feel the need to call someone out that I find suspicious because it doesn't, I I feel like it doesn't lead anywhere.
[55:19] SPEAKER_02: You know, and it's like even if it amounted to something and all of you know my you know, fellow professionals said, yeah, I agree, this is sus.
[55:27] SPEAKER_02: You know, like this person needs to, you know, be me be more transparent or we need to hold them accountable somehow.
[55:33] SPEAKER_02: And then said athlete says, There's absolutely no proof I'm clean.
[55:38] SPEAKER_02: I've been, you know, I I'm all for clean sport and blah, blah, blah.
[55:41] SPEAKER_02: And nothing, nothing happens.
[55:44] SPEAKER_02: And so I just feel like I personally don't have the energy to call someone out or to you know even like talk about it privately, say, like, oh, what do you guys think about this guy?
[55:56] SPEAKER_02: You know, is this do you guys think this is suspicious too?
[55:59] SPEAKER_02: Like, because what are you gonna do about it?
[56:01] SPEAKER_00: I used to care way more and like used to be I used to be way more skeptical.
[56:05] SPEAKER_00: Like it used to consume more of my thoughts than what it does now.
[56:08] SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking about this the other day.
[56:10] SPEAKER_00: Since 2017, well over a hundred Kenyan athletes, runners, have tested positive.
[56:16] SPEAKER_00: Imagine in Triton if we'd had over a hundred of our professionals test positive.
[56:21] SPEAKER_00: Like, but I don't watch running and think like, oh, he's doping, he's doping, he's doping, she's doping, she's doping, she's doping.
[56:27] SPEAKER_00: Even though statistically we can see that the best are doping at very high levels, it's just water off a duck's back to me because I'm not as invested in the sport.
[56:34] SPEAKER_00: And then I watch the Tour de France now and I go, okay, this is pretty alien what we're seeing.
[56:38] SPEAKER_00: Like these guys are doing some crazy shit, but I don't feel the need to go and post on social media, oh my god, they're doping, they're doping, they're doping.
[56:46] SPEAKER_00: Even though my brain tells me, look, they're probably doing something.
[56:50] SPEAKER_00: I think the difference with triathlon is it's the sport I'm most invested in.
[56:54] SPEAKER_00: So if I knew someone was doping, I would probably feel kind of uh bigger emotions about it than what I do about other sports that I watch.
[57:02] SPEAKER_00: Although I am trying to watch the sport through the same lens that I do the others.
[57:07] SPEAKER_00: Like if it's happening, it's happening.
[57:08] SPEAKER_00: If it, if it if someone tests positive, great, then we talk about it.
[57:12] SPEAKER_00: But up until that point, like, what's the point?
[57:15] SPEAKER_00: What's the point?
[57:15] SPEAKER_00: It just consumes your thoughts for nothing.
[57:17] SPEAKER_00: You're never gonna know who's clean, who's dirty.
[57:19] SPEAKER_00: Like, what's what's even the point in thinking about it?
[57:22] SPEAKER_00: Unless you're just someone who loves being skeptical, in which case, if you enjoy that, fair enough.
[57:26] SPEAKER_00: Sport's all about your own entertainment and your your own pleasure.
[57:29] SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if if that's if that's what makes it fun for you.
[57:32] SPEAKER_00: But for me, it doesn't make it fun.
[57:34] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it really doesn't make it fun.
[57:35] SPEAKER_01: I feel like making random jokes with your friends about it is like sort of fun, but then you just kind of let it like flee fleet away or something, right?
[57:41] SPEAKER_01: It's not like we're up at at night like thinking about it.
[57:45] SPEAKER_01: And like you said, I mean, we talk about cycling.
[57:48] SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, I don't know, that Lance Armstrong era, that was some fucking good TV.
[57:51] SPEAKER_01: I don't know about you guys, but I had a great time watching and still watch somebody plays.
[57:55] SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna lie, it's like, okay, I love watching what they're doing out there.
[57:59] SPEAKER_01: So who am I to say?
[58:00] SPEAKER_01: If it's an entertainment product, I mean, yeah, the morals of it are gray sometimes, but no doubt.
[58:05] SPEAKER_01: I mean, everyone pushes gray limits, I mean, especially in cycling.
[58:09] SPEAKER_01: There's no question about that.
[58:10] SPEAKER_00: But uh if the question was, do pros have the right or should they come out and say something they're suspicious of, that's a bit different to what we're saying.
[58:17] SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, I hate the era where if you say your opinion, you know, someone might sue you or whatever.
[58:22] SPEAKER_00: So like I think if a pro, if someone feels something and it's it's it's based on something, you can say it.
[58:27] SPEAKER_00: But I think saying something baseless is kind of lame.
[58:31] SPEAKER_00: Like if you don't know something, you just don't like someone or you think they're they're better than you and you're suspicious, that's kind of lame.
[58:36] SPEAKER_00: Like keep say it in private, that's fine.
[58:38] SPEAKER_00: Like, like you said, if if you want to say that in the group chat or over a beer with one of your mates, yeah, 100%.
[58:43] SPEAKER_00: That's that's just that's completely fine.
[58:45] SPEAKER_00: But you know, publicly a bit different.
[58:47] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Jack, that's a great point.
[58:48] SPEAKER_02: I uh I really only accuse people of doping when my girlfriend asks why I can't beat them.
[58:56] SPEAKER_00: And fair enough too.
[58:57] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's a perfect way to wrap that conversation up, Jack.
[59:00] SPEAKER_01: I think that's a smart way.
[59:01] SPEAKER_01: So, all right, so I thought I'd bring a little quick fire segment to the table.
[59:04] SPEAKER_01: It's called Ari broke the news earlier on the segment name.
[59:08] SPEAKER_01: It's called contender or pretender.
[59:10] SPEAKER_01: And Jack, all I want and Ari, all I want you to do is give me one word.
[59:13] SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say contender, I'm gonna ask you someone's name, and you say contender or pretender.
[59:19] SPEAKER_01: No justification needed, okay?
[59:21] SPEAKER_00: Read this, Greg.
[59:22] SPEAKER_00: Is it contender or pretender for a specific race or just for the big races or for the rest of the year?
[59:27] SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I think we're kind of thinking kind of the yeah, pointy end of the season.
[59:32] SPEAKER_01: Big big races.
[59:32] SPEAKER_01: Alright, number one.
[59:34] SPEAKER_01: Jonas Schoenberg.
[59:36] SPEAKER_00: Contender?
[59:38] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[59:40] SPEAKER_01: I'm saying contender.
[59:41] SPEAKER_01: Uh Christian Hoganhog.
[59:43] SPEAKER_00: Contender.
[59:44] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[59:45] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[59:48] SPEAKER_01: Leon Chevalier.
[59:50] SPEAKER_00: Contender.
[59:51] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[59:52] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[59:54] SPEAKER_01: Harry Palmer.
[59:56] SPEAKER_00: Oh for the big races.
[1:00:00] SPEAKER_00: Oh uh contender.
[1:00:05] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:00:06] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:00:07] SPEAKER_01: Vincent Louis.
[1:00:09] SPEAKER_00: Pretender.
[1:00:11] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:00:12] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:00:14] SPEAKER_00: This is so offensive.
[1:00:18] SPEAKER_01: I know we're just out here judging, just like, oh, look at these clowns.
[1:00:22] SPEAKER_01: Alright, Johnny Brownle.
[1:00:23] SPEAKER_00: Oh, this.
[1:00:24] SPEAKER_01: How did Johnny Brownley make it on this list?
[1:00:27] SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if we're.
[1:00:28] SPEAKER_01: Does he have a 70.3 world slot?
[1:00:31] SPEAKER_00: This kills me, but he he's a uh he's just he's a pretender at the moment.
[1:00:35] SPEAKER_00: That sucks to say.
[1:00:36] SPEAKER_01: For we got only talking about answer the question.
[1:00:41] SPEAKER_01: Uh Pretender.
[1:00:42] SPEAKER_01: I'm saying contender.
[1:00:44] SPEAKER_01: I would never throw him under the bus like that.
[1:00:45] SPEAKER_01: Jack, you're a dick.
[1:00:46] SPEAKER_00: I feel like Greg's done this segment just to make us look bad.
[1:00:52] SPEAKER_01: Joe Skipper.
[1:00:54] SPEAKER_01: Pass.
[1:00:56] unknown: What?
[1:00:59] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:01:00] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:01:02] SPEAKER_01: Marjolaine Pierre.
[1:01:04] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:01:05] SPEAKER_01: Oh, contender.
[1:01:07] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:01:08] SPEAKER_01: Kieran Linders.
[1:01:10] SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm sorry, Kieran.
[1:01:13] SPEAKER_00: Pretender.
[1:01:14] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:01:16] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:01:18] SPEAKER_01: Danielle Lewis.
[1:01:19] SPEAKER_01: I don't like this segment anymore.
[1:01:21] SPEAKER_00: It's your segment.
[1:01:24] SPEAKER_00: Danielle Lewis.
[1:01:25] SPEAKER_00: Oh, if we're talking big.
[1:01:26] SPEAKER_00: Does late plastic count as a big race?
[1:01:29] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[1:01:29] SPEAKER_00: Duh.
[1:01:31] SPEAKER_01: Duh.
[1:01:32] SPEAKER_01: Ari's doing it.
[1:01:33] SPEAKER_00: Because it's like, is it just world championships?
[1:01:35] SPEAKER_00: Because in my head, I'm thinking, can they do well at Iron Man World Championships or 70.3 world championships?
[1:01:39] SPEAKER_00: Or maybe like in like top five kind of thing.
[1:01:43] SPEAKER_00: Well, okay.
[1:01:44] SPEAKER_00: Danielle Lewis pretender.
[1:01:46] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:01:47] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:01:48] SPEAKER_01: Fred Funk.
[1:01:49] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:01:52] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:01:54] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:01:56] SPEAKER_01: Tomorrow Jewett.
[1:01:59] SPEAKER_01: Oh, pretender.
[1:02:01] SPEAKER_01: Also pretender.
[1:02:03] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:02:04] SPEAKER_01: Nikki Bartlett.
[1:02:06] SPEAKER_00: Oh, she's a smokey, but pretender for now.
[1:02:10] SPEAKER_00: Just a tough personal situation in 2025.
[1:02:13] SPEAKER_02: I don't know anything about that, but pretender, because Jack seems to know something.
[1:02:20] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:02:21] SPEAKER_01: Jackie Herring.
[1:02:22] SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's the hardest one yet.
[1:02:25] SPEAKER_00: Contender.
[1:02:27] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:02:28] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:02:30] SPEAKER_01: Ben Canute.
[1:02:33] SPEAKER_01: Uh uh.
[1:02:35] SPEAKER_01: Pretender?
[1:02:37] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:02:38] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:02:39] SPEAKER_01: Elsviser.
[1:02:41] SPEAKER_00: Pretender?
[1:02:42] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:02:44] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:02:46] SPEAKER_01: Penny Slater.
[1:02:48] SPEAKER_01: Oh, no comment.
[1:02:52] SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Pen.
[1:02:53] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:02:54] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:02:56] SPEAKER_01: Matisse Marjurier.
[1:02:58] SPEAKER_00: Oh, contender.
[1:02:59] SPEAKER_01: Is he gonna race anything but T100?
[1:03:03] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:03:03] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:03:04] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:03:05] SPEAKER_01: Yuri Kulin.
[1:03:07] SPEAKER_00: Ooh.
[1:03:09] SPEAKER_01: Uh contender.
[1:03:11] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:03:12] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:03:14] SPEAKER_01: Pengiados Batados, the Ari's favorite.
[1:03:18] SPEAKER_01: Uh Pretender this year.
[1:03:21] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:03:23] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:03:24] SPEAKER_01: This this next one we're gonna just hang our heads a bit before.
[1:03:29] SPEAKER_01: The late Justin Reale.
[1:03:31] SPEAKER_01: Rest in peace.
[1:03:32] SPEAKER_00: Uh Pretender.
[1:03:34] SPEAKER_01: I'd like to offer a minute of silence.
[1:03:37] SPEAKER_01: We're not doing that.
[1:03:38] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:03:40] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:03:42] SPEAKER_01: Daniel Backagard.
[1:03:44] SPEAKER_00: Oh.
[1:03:46] SPEAKER_00: This might be the new toughest one.
[1:03:48] SPEAKER_00: Um Pretend oh Pretender, just.
[1:03:57] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pretender.
[1:03:59] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:04:00] SPEAKER_01: Jason West.
[1:04:02] SPEAKER_01: Uh Pretender.
[1:04:04] SPEAKER_01: Also pretender.
[1:04:06] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:04:07] SPEAKER_01: Trevor Foley.
[1:04:09] SPEAKER_01: Oh, contender.
[1:04:10] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:04:12] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:04:13] SPEAKER_01: Morgan Pearson.
[1:04:15] SPEAKER_00: Ooh.
[1:04:17] SPEAKER_00: Uh.
[1:04:19] SPEAKER_00: 70.3 worlds.
[1:04:20] SPEAKER_00: Has he got a slot?
[1:04:23] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Indian Wells.
[1:04:24] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Indian Wells.
[1:04:25] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, contender.
[1:04:26] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:04:27] SPEAKER_01: Who cares?
[1:04:28] SPEAKER_01: Patrick Lang.
[1:04:30] SPEAKER_01: Oh, contender.
[1:04:31] SPEAKER_01: World champion.
[1:04:32] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:04:34] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:04:35] unknown: Oh.
[1:04:36] SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Craig.
[1:04:38] SPEAKER_00: Oh, he's just still a fan.
[1:04:40] SPEAKER_00: Because Patrick called Ari an idiot.
[1:04:45] SPEAKER_01: Cam Worf.
[1:04:46] SPEAKER_00: Contender.
[1:04:49] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:04:50] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:04:51] SPEAKER_01: Gustav Eden.
[1:04:53] SPEAKER_00: Contender.
[1:04:56] SPEAKER_01: Pretender this year, still.
[1:04:58] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:04:59] SPEAKER_01: I want to say one thing about Gustav.
[1:05:02] SPEAKER_01: I feel like he could get on the podium.
[1:05:04] SPEAKER_01: Anyway, we could we could we could debate that.
[1:05:06] SPEAKER_01: But I think what he did this year, doing all the races with Christian and stuff, was actually the best thing for him.
[1:05:11] SPEAKER_01: He gets to train with Christian every day.
[1:05:12] SPEAKER_01: I don't know why anyone gave him slack for that.
[1:05:15] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right?
[1:05:16] SPEAKER_01: Alright, Josh Hamburger.
[1:05:18] SPEAKER_01: Uh uh pass.
[1:05:23] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:05:24] SPEAKER_01: Pretender, for sure.
[1:05:26] SPEAKER_01: Um, Max Newman.
[1:05:28] SPEAKER_00: Is Max still alive?
[1:05:31] SPEAKER_00: You would know.
[1:05:33] SPEAKER_00: No one has heard from Max.
[1:05:34] SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure he's still alive, so can't comment.
[1:05:37] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:05:39] SPEAKER_01: I'm going contender too, and we have a special final one.
[1:05:43] SPEAKER_01: Ari Clow Lake Placid specific.
[1:05:46] SPEAKER_01: Coach Jack.
[1:05:47] SPEAKER_00: Pretender.
[1:05:52] SPEAKER_01: Pretender.
[1:05:54] SPEAKER_01: Contender.
[1:05:56] SPEAKER_01: That wraps up contender or pretender.
[1:05:58] SPEAKER_00: That was a good way to end it, but that is a brutal segment.
[1:06:00] SPEAKER_00: You just like that is just a surefire way to make people not like you by calling them a pretender.
[1:06:05] SPEAKER_00: It's such harsh language.
[1:06:07] SPEAKER_00: Like, I know.
[1:06:08] SPEAKER_00: It should be more subtle.
[1:06:10] SPEAKER_00: Like, can can this person finish on the podium at World Champs?
[1:06:13] SPEAKER_00: Like, that makes it less offensive, but just like, sorry, sorry, sorry.
[1:06:17] SPEAKER_00: Like uh Ben Canute, you're a pretender.
[1:06:20] SPEAKER_00: That's so harsh.
[1:06:21] SPEAKER_00: Because he's still good.
[1:06:23] SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, you can probably finish 10th at IMM Worlds, and that'd be a great result.
[1:06:26] SPEAKER_00: But yeah, harsh segment.
[1:06:28] SPEAKER_01: The rhyming really like made me want to do it, and now I'm like, I I don't feel good.
[1:06:33] SPEAKER_01: So um let's just end the show.
[1:06:35] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was also long.
[1:06:39] SPEAKER_00: It was still fun though.
[1:06:40] SPEAKER_00: All right, boys.
[1:06:41] SPEAKER_00: That was a good episode.
[1:06:42] SPEAKER_00: Lots of good things to discuss.
[1:06:43] SPEAKER_00: Uh Greg, Ari, thank you.
[1:06:45] SPEAKER_00: We'll uh we'll do it again next week, as always.
[1:06:47] SPEAKER_00: See you, mate.
[1:06:48] SPEAKER_01: We'll do later.

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