# How to ACTUALLY Work with Big Brands (as a Solo Videographer) ft. Evan Tanaka

An episode of [THE 505 PODCAST](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1591279585), 3 Jun 2026, 1 h 23 min.

Audio: https://podcasts.beehiiv.com/3f71d8b4-2a8c-40eb-8500-c62b76bd9acc/019d43e4-0103-7741-b37f-b81b41dca056/019e8baf-a536-7532-9a38-64982353c2b9/019e90d4-063a-775f-b1f5-1e65f17288a7.mp3

Get 30% OFF your first 3 months of beehiiv with our code "505POD30" http://www.beehiiv.com/splash?utm_campaign=brayden-figueroa-2026-Partnership&utm_medium=podcast&utm_source=brayden-figueroa&utm_term=dedicated-podcast-1&stripe_campaign_code=505POD30 What’s up Rock Nation! Today we’re joined by Evan Tanaka, director, DP, and founder of Naka Studios, a production company working with brands like Panda Express, Google, Marvel, Bud Light, and more. In this episode, we get into what actually separates the videographers who level up from the ones who stay stuck, why relationships and trust matter more than gear or talent, how Evan went from one-man-band creator to running a studio with bigger crews and bigger productions, the unspoken rules of working with brands and agencies, how to build trust before you ever step on set, when to speak up creatively versus when to bite your tongue, why renegotiating your rate during a shoot can ruin a relationship, how social media became one of the best investments in his business, and the real playbook for turning small opportunities into long-term brand relationships. Check out Evan here: https://www.instagram.com/evan_naka/ 00:00 – Intro 01:08 – One-Handed Crack 02:00 – Welcome Evan Tanaka 02:15 – Going From One-Man Band to Bigger Productions 04:43 – How to Build Trust With Clients 06:08 – Building Trust Before You Get on Set 07:20 – Adding Creative Ideas Without Overstepping 09:00 – When to Speak Up vs. Bite Your Tongue 11:53 – Beehiiv Sponsor 12:54 – How Evan Built His Relationship With Panda Express 18:30 – How to Light Food and Beverage 21:56 – Positioning Yourself Around a Specific Niche 24:38 – What Evan Learned From Bigger Commercial Sets 26:15 – Building a Team You Can Trust 28:56 – How Crew Members Can Get Hired by Production Companies 29:46 – Why Making People’s Lives Easier Gets You Rehired 32:18 – Why Renegotiating Rates During a Shoot Is a Bad Move 33:21 – What Evan Learned From Getting an MBA 36:48 – Why Social Media Was Evan’s Best Business Investment 38:47 – Building Margins and Actually Making Money 41:26 – How to Add Value Without Overcomplicating the Budget 43:19 – Giving Brands More Content Without More Work 45:43 – Shooting 16:9 vs. Vertical for Social 48:12 – Gear Investments That Were Worth It 50:25 – Why the FX6 Wasn’t Evan’s Best Investment 52:00 – Why Evan’s Studio Was One of His Best Investments 53:56 – Thinking About the Next 10 Years of Your Career 55:12 – Growing Into a Bigger “Fishbowl” 56:40 – How AI Could Impact Food and Product Production 58:58 – Which Creative Niches Are Safe From AI 1:01:47 – How AI Could Change Location-Based Shoots 1:03:15 – Why Real Photography Still Matters 1:06:46 – How Licensing Works With Bigger Brands 1:09:32 – When to Get an Agent or Manager 1:11:35 – Why Evan Doesn’t Do Outbound Anymore 1:12:01 – The Right Way to Build Relationships 1:14:36 – Why “Can I Pick Your Brain?” Usually Doesn’t Work 1:17:39 – The Shoot That Made Evan Realize He Had Leveled Up 1:19:47 – Going From Shooter to Director 1:20:08 – Why You Need to Build the Body of Work for the Role You Want 1:21:56 – Stop Taking Jobs for the Role You Don’t Want 1:22:59 – Wrapping the Episode With Evan If you liked this episode please send it to a friend and take a screenshot for your story! And as always, we'd love to hear from you guys on what you'd like to hear us talk about or potential guests we should have on. DM US ON IG: (Our DM's are always open!) Bfiggy: https://www.instagram.com/bfiggy/ Kostas: https://www.instagram.com/kostasg95/

## Transcript

[0:00] Renegotiating prices during your shoots, that's wild to me. You're not gonna work with that person again.
[0:05] That's Evan Tanaka, director, DP, and founder of Naka Studios, whose work with brands like Panda Express, Google, and Marvel, has been built on the same foundation he started with in his garage; relationships, trust, and a long game most creatives aren't patient enough to play.
[0:18] When it comes down to who's gonna get the job, it's the relationship and the trust. Don't worry about all the other production needs, because it... You're gonna get overwhelmed.
[0:26] In this episode, Evan breaks down what actually separates the videographers who level up and those who stay stuck, and why it has almost nothing to do with gear or skill.
[0:34] If you're only taking PA jobs, you are going to stay a PA. Start doing the other jobs and start challenging yourself to get to that next level.
[0:42] We also get into the unspoken rules of working with bigger brands, and the things you do on set that quietly determine whether you get hired again or not.
[0:49] A lot of people in this industry are afraid of saying, "I don't understand." That's the worst thing that you can do.
[0:55] Today, Evan opens up about what it really took to go from one-man band videographer to owning a studio, and the real playbook it takes to work with bigger brands.
[1:03] If you can find ways to get them more content, that's gonna get you more jobs. I'm gonna do an example, 'cause I feel like- Yeah... I feel like I'm gonna do really good. Teach me how to do this.
[1:11] \[can opening\] That was pretty damn good. Well, you've been doing this for 20 years. I know. That was a really good one. Come on. Wait, so is that, like, a perfect score? I feel like- It wasn't a perfect score.
[1:18] I, it was a little slow on the, on the pop-up, you know? It was a little slow. So I give myself an 8.1 right there. That's an 8.1. So it's... You get graded on how fast you open it up too?
[1:25] You gotta, it's gotta, it's just gotta be perfect. Jesus. You know? See, see how there's no liquid on the lid? Every time- What do you got, Lindsay? Every time we do it, he just brings a new rule.
[1:31] See how there's, see how there's no liquid on the lid? Yeah. That's a per- that's a good one. Show mine now to them. No liquid on the lid too? \[can opening\] See? He spilled a little bit. I saw that. I saw that.
[1:37] You see that? So that's a, that deducts something. So that's like docked at least 0.5. But no dents? He didn't dent it. It was, it was one of his better ones. Okay. That was a 7.7. Yeah.
[1:43] He's, he's not as good as you are. It was good, but it wasn't as good as me. Okay. Okay, now go. So here. Yep. And \[can opening\]. Wow. Wow. \[laughs\] I feel like I'm gonna spill so much though. Did you dent it?
[1:52] There's no dent. Okay. I don't... I think that was there before. 6.9. Welcome to the show, Evan Tanaka. \[laughs\] Come on, baby. Cheers, boys. Let's go, dude. Evan's favorite number. It's so good to see you. Evan. Yes.
[2:02] We've known each other for such a long time. We go all the way back to the University of Oregon days. Oregon, baby. Okay? \[laughs\] Let's go. Let's go.
[2:08] There's a lot of people listening to this show that might be a freelancer, they're one man, one woman band situation- Yep. Yep... and they wanna get up into the bigger productions.
[2:16] What do you feel like was the key characteristic that allowed you to go from, "I'm just showing up with my camera," to now you have a studio, you're doing it full time, you have a team, you're working on the bigger stuff.
[2:26] What needs to happen in the, in the mix of that? Dude, I love how you just jumped right into it. Right in. There was no warmup question- No... at all. Never.
[2:34] There was just like, "Hey, Evan, so what's your secret to get to where you, you-" How do you- \[laughs\] Hey, Evan, remember when we went to college together? \[laughs\] Social Security number. How do you make money?
[2:40] How do you make money? \[laughs\] Social Security number. Yeah. Give me your Social. Dang, man. Um, yeah, let me, let me think about that. That's a, that's a great question. \[laughs\] Uh, right out the gate.
[2:50] It's like Cameron thought we were gonna ease into it. Yeah. I was like, "Yeah." Hi, the kids. Uh, exactly. \[laughs\] Just not even anything.
[2:56] We were talking ab- we were talking before the podcast about how- I was like, "How about like an easy question like what about a website? Do you think a website is important to have?" Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[3:02] \[laughs\] Fuck the website, give me the important stuff. \[laughs\] Yeah. Um, okay. So I guess when...
[3:07] To go from starting as a one-man band, or one-man, woman band, and you're, you're showing up, you're bringing your camera, whatever you're doing, whether it's video or photo, I think no matter what, relationships.
[3:19] Like hands down most important thing beyond the equipment, beyond your skillset, to be honest. There are so many different talented people out there.
[3:28] When it comes down to who's gonna get the job and the bigger job, it's the relationship and the trust. So if you can just start there, you're in a really great place.
[3:38] Don't worry about all the other bullshit that comes with production, because it's gonna overwhelm you.
[3:43] If you're still in that position where you're, you're a single person and you're trying to just show up, uh, single in terms of your crew size- \[laughs\]...
[3:50] uh, and you're just showing up and you're just trying to get the shot, like don't worry about all the other production needs that go into stuff, because it... You're gonna get overwhelmed.
[4:00] Work on the relationship, work on the trust, show them that you can be relied on, so when they give you a call, they're just like, "No-brainer." You know? "Brayden's gonna handle us. He's gonna take care of it.
[4:10] We have so much other crap going on for our production, we know that if we call Brayden, he's, he's, he's a rock. Like, he's no... Solid." A- and it starts there. \[laughs\] Yeah. Uh, and this is a hypothetical.
[4:21] It definitely is. You're a squishy rock. It definitely is. Yeah, a squishy rock. \[laughs\] It's a, it's a hypothetic- like a big hypothetical example. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big rock.
[4:25] I know that may not be the case, but- I don't know if people c- um- \[laughs\]... I don't know if people really grasped that based off of the example that you gave. \[laughs\] You know?
[4:35] With, with Brayden being that reliable rock. \[laughs\] Yeah. Yeah, maybe it was a bad example. \[laughs\] But, uh, but I think, I, I think it's there. I think it's there. What are ways to build trust with a client?
[4:46] Um, I mean, it, it, I... Maybe this is very basic for to start off with, but I think it is good to have a, a, a baseline somewhere.
[4:54] Um, it, it's showing up on time, it's answering your emails, it's answering the questions when they get back, when, when they, uh, come to you.
[5:02] Uh, this is all very, very basic stuff, but I think in our world it's very easy for us to get distracted. Um, it, it's really easy for us to start thinking about the next project. That's a big one.
[5:15] When y- If you're working, that's awesome. Like, congratulations, you're already beating out 80% of the other creators out there, any of the other videographers out there, that you're busy.
[5:26] But if you're showing them that when you're saying yes to a job, and then you're already focused on the next job and they feel that, whether it's, "I can't schedule my meetings around your meetings," uh, when you're on set you're whipping out your phone and you're talking about another production, that, that's shit everybody feels.
[5:42] That's stuff that everybody hears and feels and knows, like, man, we're not the main topic here. And that's what they brought you on.
[5:50] So make sure that your client, the brand you're working for, the agency that brought you on, that they feel that you're present. I mean, basic, but it goes a long way.
[5:59] What about things that you can do in the pre-production side of things... to build trust with the client where they know you're gonna crush it before you even get on set?
[6:08] Uh, I think it goes a lot to the work, but then also, uh, the understanding that when they're asking you questions and you're in the... Maybe it's like a, the creative kickoff meeting.
[6:18] Uh, little things that I do is repeat the, the creative back to the client.
[6:23] So when the agency or the client's walking you through the creative, if you didn't come up with it and it's being provided and you just have to be there to be able to capture it, um, make sure that they know that you understand it and you can reiterate it back to them.
[6:35] Um, that's something that I think is, again, maybe this is all very basic stuff, but it's super important that a lot of people in this industry are afraid of saying, "I don't understand. I don't get it."
[6:48] And they're scared because if they say that, then maybe they think, "Oh man, these people think I'm, you know, maybe less intelligent, or I just, I'm not as experienced, uh, as somebody else that might get this job."
[6:59] But that's the worst thing that you can do before you set up, get to set, and I've seen it firsthand.
[7:04] I've e- I've done it firsthand because you don't wanna let on like, "Oh man, I just, I don't wanna be the dumb one on set or in this meeting." So when you say, "Hey, that's great. Can I clarify something?"
[7:15] And then you go into it, and they may say, "Exactly," or they may say, "Almost, but if we're gonna do this..." Perfect. Now you guys are on the same page.
[7:22] Everybody just wants the best product possible, so if you can make them feel like, wow, Kostas, I'm gonna use you this time. Uh, if Kostas were- Better example...
[7:30] if he asked questions in this meeting and it shows that he really understands what this is. Now, the next level of that is op- uh, offering, uh, a plus up, a level up.
[7:41] Um, and I think this is something else that needs to be used, uh, very, you know, smartly, if you will. Uh, because if you offer too much creative to creatives that it's theirs, you don't wanna overstep.
[7:55] Uh, and that's really important, especially on the agency side. Uh, they have creative minds. They're very proud of their work.
[8:01] So if they're bringing you creative ideas already, most likely they've spent a lot of time to get it there, whether it's within their team, whether it's with their c- their clients, and they're going back and forth.
[8:12] So when you come in and you change and you're like, "Oh, that's a great idea, but I, I have some, a better idea," they're, they're not gonna like that.
[8:17] But what they do like is when you're able to level it up a little bit w- and it has to do with whatever that creative is and it's specific to it. You know, we were talking about probe lens.
[8:27] So if they come in with something, uh, something like, "Oh, we're gonna do a close-up shot of the food and we're gonna skate..." In my world I shoot a lot of food. "We're gonna, you know, move the camera above the food."
[8:37] "Hey, have you guys thought about using a probe lens for that shot? I think it'd be really cool. It'll g- be very immersive." Great. Not a huge, like, creative, like, mind buster.
[8:45] Like, whoa, this guy's, uh, he's so smart. He's a genius. \[laughs\] He's a genius with this idea.
[8:50] But it's like he gets it, he understands what the creative is, and he's, he's adding his two cents and he's able to bring something new to the table that doesn't disregard all the hard work we got to this point.
[9:00] Have you had an instance where the creative really is shit- \[laughs\]... and you're like, "I know this isn't gonna land"? Because- Yep...
[9:09] I'm sure that these clients come to you as, I know that Evan can knock it out of the park from the production standpoint, but you're also... You create a bunch of content for yourself.
[9:18] Like, you really understand social and what's gonna work. So have there been instances where the creative you know really isn't gonna land, and
[9:27] do you bite your tongue in that instance because they're coming to you and it's not necessarily your idea, so you're like, "I'm just gonna do as good of a job as I can. I'm gonna get paid.
[9:36] This is gonna be a successful shoot in their eyes. I would maybe do it a little bit differently"? Or are there times where maybe you speak up?
[9:43] Uh, I think it goes back to the thing we initially started talking about, is the trust. Hm.
[9:47] And if you can earn the trust of the client and the agency that you're working with, uh, I think that conversation's very different.
[9:54] But if it's your first day and you just got hired as a one-off freelancer and you're brought to set and they provided you with all the creative and, uh, like going back to what I said of like they put in a ton of work to get to this point,
[10:06] might need to bi- bite your tongue. Mm-hmm. Like, and that is just full, honest truth in terms of all the big productions I've been on. I've seen it happen, and people get turned off so fast.
[10:17] If you're, if you overstep too soon and you're offering an opinion that throws a wrench in the system, it's gonna be met with a lot of resistance.
[10:28] Now, I'm not saying it's always bad to do that, because there are certain times when it's like that really needed to happen, or they were looking for advice.
[10:35] 'Cause sometimes that happens too, is like, "Hey, this is how we wanna shoot it. What do you think?" Perfect example. Let them know. Again, I wouldn't stray too far away from the creative. Yeah. Add your two cents.
[10:46] Add something that's gonna level it up. If, in my case, it's something that's gonna be a better hook or a social, um, it's gonna be th- m- maybe people are gonna respond better to it, it's better doing it that way.
[10:57] Mm-hmm. So I, I'm a little bit more conservative on my approach until I really establish a relationship with the brand. Yeah. The other, other example that I would give is, so I work with Panda Express a lot
[11:08] and I shoot a lot of their social. We'll come up with creative and we'll go through a bunch of iterations of what that creative is.
[11:15] Now I've built a really strong relationship with them, and we'll get the creative, or sometimes I come up with it, sometimes they come up with it, sometimes the agency they work with comes up with it, and we'll be on set and there's always something new that you see that you didn't expect, whether, ah, that's a cool characteristic of the talent we're using or the, the light's coming in a different way or, uh, just, you just realize that there's a better way to shoot it on set.
[11:40] I always like to, if there's time, I always like to shoot it how it's scripted-And then one for myself. And then that's how I always, "Hey." Then we have options. People love options. Give them options.
[11:51] So that's another way to d- uh, approach it. Flag on the play. What's going on, Fig? Well, this episode with Evan's got me super fired up. You know what's got me even more fired up? Tell me.
[11:58] Is it Beehiiv's integration into Claude, which is- Ooh... this is insane. Okay, we got a bunch of crazy updates going from our buddies at Beehiiv, and we have a crazy code for the rock.
[12:06] So Beehiiv is integrated with their MCP with Claude, which basically means we have, like, a connection, a bridge from Claude over to Beehiiv.
[12:14] So I can ask Claude any question, and I can get direct access into my entire Beehiiv library. So that's my podcast, my newsletter insights, ou- my audience is growing.
[12:22] Now we got one platform that solves everything for our business. Another thing that it solves is webinars. Yeah, webinars.
[12:28] Okay, so instead of having to go to another platform, and I was paying a pretty egregious fee every single month, it's now my podcast, my webinar, my newsletter, all home.
[12:36] And I can connect them up to my AI platforms and get great insights on how I can make them better, how we can optimize, and how we can just keep growing our community over on Beehiiv.
[12:44] If you're a creator, you're an entrepreneur, and you have not figured out a place to host your audience, Beehiiv is the number one tool, and you also get 30% off your first three months if you use our code 505POD30.
[12:53] So check it out. Let's keep it rolling. I'd love to go a little bit more in depth with your specific relationship with Panda. Mm. Because I think that's, like, an incredible example of building trust over the years.
[13:05] Now what it is, now what the relationship has gotten to is not what it originally started as. No. And you're shooting a lot more at a bigger level. So I'd love for you to go into how did that relationship start?
[13:17] What did it look like at the beginning? And how have you fostered that relationship to turn it into what it is now? Yeah. So that was... That's an interesting s- story. So
[13:27] this was now, man, it must have been probably right after I did the first podcast with you all. Oh, wow. Four years ago. Four years, right? It's been four years. Can you believe it's been that long? What episode was Ev?
[13:36] Ev was, like, 13 or something. You were early on. Was I single-digit episodes? Bro, you were low. You were definitely- You were like Bitcoin in '04, dog... yeah, dude. Come on.
[13:43] No, yeah, I think you were, uh- Almost there knew more then... I think you were, you were definitely within 20 or 25. Insane. Yeah. That, that's crazy.
[13:51] Uh, and I got a mustache now, and this is just, man, a lot, lot's happened. Couple of kids. Couple of kids. \[laughs\] Couple. \[laughs\] A sick, uh, a sick vintage car. Got a sick vintage... Dude, lots, lot's changed.
[14:02] Lot of changes. A studio. A studio. Made it out the garage. Did I have a studio? He didn't even have a camera back then. No, you were shooting in the garage. I didn't have a camera. Oh yeah, that's right.
[14:07] I didn't even pick up the camera. Yeah, you were in the garage. Yeah, I was in the garage. You were in your garage. No, I'm just kidding. I had a camera, but I was in the garage.
[14:11] \[laughs\] Damn, actually, no, now, now that we're talking back, yeah, a lot's changed. Yeah. Um, what was, what was your question? Four years ago, what did I do? How did the relationship come with Panda?
[14:18] Oh, the relationship. That's what it was. Um, so this is... I'll tell you how I got the job first because that, this is something that
[14:28] my wife is gonna see this and be like, "Yep, I remember when you decided to choose work over me."
[14:34] \[laughs\] Um, but it was, I got, I got the call or an email or text, whatever, and somebody was like, "We have a upcoming shoot with Panda Express," and they were the full-time agency with them, and I was just being brought in as a, a freelancer, director, and shooter for them.
[14:47] Um, and- Did they find you through social? They, they found me through social. I lost the job.
[14:52] I had to actually, you know, build a pitch deck and everything for them, and I was like one of, you know, four or five directors, as you do with these bigger projects and bigger companies.
[15:01] Um, and I didn't get hired first off. So they went with somebody else. Then however that shoot went, maybe it didn't go well. I don't know exactly, but for whatever reason, that person didn't get hired again.
[15:12] So they reached out to me because I was second choice, and then they were like, "Hey, you know, this person isn't available. Would you be interested in doing this next shoot?"
[15:20] And I was like, "I'm supposed to go to Japan" in, like, that exact same time- \[laughs\]... on a family vacation. Or on a- Oh... just a vacation with my- Yeah... my wife. Mm-hmm. And, like, we didn't have kids yet.
[15:30] And I was like, "Oh, God." I don't... I, I remember having this talk with her. \[laughs\] We bought tickets and everything. Like, we had tickets- Mm-hmm... and we were ready to go. Fully booked. Fully booked. Hotels?
[15:38] I don't know about the hotels. Yeah. I can't remember. Let's, to, to make this story more dramatic, I'm gonna say yes. We had- \[laughs\]... this whole- Full itinerary... this full itinerary. Dinner reservations.
[15:47] Yeah, I'm gonna meet people, and my ancestors- Yeah, yeah... we were gonna meet them out there, my home. \[laughs\] Um, so, uh, I remember having this talk with her.
[15:54] I was like, "Look, this is really important, and I, I need to explore this opportunity. I don't know if I'm gonna get this again." I think looking back, I made the right decision.
[16:02] Um, now I've been working with Panda Express pretty consistently for the past, like, three, four years, and the, it, the relationship has just grown. I mean, they're amazing people.
[16:12] So, um, here's one other thing is I always get the same question from, you know, a lot of people that I talk with is, "What's your dream brand? What's your, the dream company to work with?"
[16:22] Um, when I was younger and I, I would always say, you know, like, "The Nikes, the, the Adidas. That'd be so cool. Uh, Apple." Now it's truly, without a shadow of a doubt, it's the people.
[16:35] It's the people that I wanna work with that are good. They're just, you know, honest people. They're all working towards a common goal, and that's what Panda Express is. They're just good people.
[16:45] So I, I really, really appreciate that I found them and they found me. Um, that's enough of a plug. Uh \[laughs\]- I was gonna send you that clip. Yeah, thanks, dude. So definitely, yeah, yeah. Thanks, dude.
[16:54] Um, but what I...
[16:55] Uh, so from there, I got hired on as their, like, social creator, and the shoot went really well, and then we did another and another, and it was still that same, you know, repetition of just making sure that the client gets what they want, the agency gets what they want, and I really just built that trust, and it was a long-term foundation.
[17:12] Took me about a year or so with them, and then they decided to move into, uh, move to another agency, but they wanted to keep me.
[17:19] So they contacted me and said, "We really like working with you and how you work with us," um, and we built that relationship.
[17:25] So they took me with them, uh, to their next agency, um, which was great, um, and it was, uh, not something that commonly happens.
[17:32] So then from there, I started showing them that I was able to do little things that are extra.And this is when that trust really comes into play.
[17:41] When they would have quick needs, I, I could- I would let them know, 'cause I was mainly shooting social iPhone-type content, TikTok, Reels, those kind of things, nothing too professional.
[17:50] And then they started seeing, like, oh, I was doing other work that was more, like, elevated productions. And then that's when I would just, like, slowly introduce it to them.
[17:59] If they had tabletop needs, food needs, because that's a lot of the stuff that I did, I would show them and be like, "Hey, if you ever need anything, I'm there for you, but let's focus on this.
[18:08] We're focused on the need," and then it would build up from there. And do they see that other stuff that you're shooting on Instagram and TikTok?
[18:15] Yeah, Instagram, TikTok, uh, it was more curated now since I was doing, doing a lot more professional work. It wasn't just solely about myself. Yeah.
[18:23] I also started my Naka Studios page, which had more of my professional work, less about me, more about really just the professional work. Okay.
[18:32] This is a more specific topic for food specifically because as I've stepped into the world of hospitality, food and beverage is just- Mm... naturally a part of that. Yep.
[18:43] How do you light food and beverage to look beautiful? Do you put the light more so on, like, the backside so you're kind of sh- Oh, we're getting, like- Yeah... super specific on the lighting.
[18:53] This is, this is- Okay, yeah... this is honestly something I wanted to ask you- Yeah... uh, off the pod, but since- \[laughs\] I just think it could be interesting. \[laughs\] Yeah.
[18:59] What is, like, the best lighting setup for, for food? So it depends on the meat, right? Okay. I'm just kidding. \[laughs\] Um, I mean, it does, but, like, we won't get to that nitty-gritty of it.
[19:08] Um, \[laughs\] I mean, it really depends on what you're trying to, you know, portray, what the food is, what the vibe is, the style of it. I'm very commercial in how I like to shoot. Okay. I like to make sure that...
[19:21] You, you look at any of my c- my actual spots, it is bright light. There's shape to it, but, you know, it is, it is commercial. You know?
[19:29] I, I've even told that in, when I put, build pitch decks and everything that they're like, "Oh, we like Evan. His look is very commercial." Like, I, that's what I'm more known for.
[19:38] Um, so again, it really depends on what you want. What I've found nice is always a nice backlight. Uh, that way it gives a good shape around the food. But having a g- nice fill as well because you don't want... I mean,
[19:50] the best way I think I could equate it to, and this is, uh, a DP that I work with, Matt Roe. Uh, 'cause I don't always shoot it. I'm more directing now. Uh, he, he lights m- a lot of my tabletop food.
[20:02] Uh, we talk about it as if it's a car.
[20:04] It's very similar depending on how you're, what food you're shooting, 'cause y- you think of it as, you know, let's say I just shot a, uh, some, like, steak, and those are cut in rectangular pieces.
[20:15] So how you light that is very different than, you know, I've shot for Jimmy Dean's. Those are sausages. They, they're more circular, and they are glossy, and they catch light very different. So how you light it is,
[20:27] it, it's like a car, and you have to approach it that way. Every little shimmer is gonna be caught by where you're putting a light.
[20:34] It, it's not as complicated as people f- make it out to be because I think when you look into a smaller tabletop, you b- think, like,
[20:44] "Well, I don't have a lot of room for all the different lights to go in there," but if you explo- expanded this out to the size of a car, you would see everything.
[20:53] So you could put your backlight, but then you'd have a, a fill light here, but then you want a highlight here and a highlight there, and then you want a shape that's gonna go across the top of the car.
[21:01] It's the exact same thing with food, but you're shrinking it down to a tabletop. So we use tiny little mirrors and reflectors and everything to get those same types of highlights as if it was a massive, massive product.
[21:13] Mm. That, if that helps. Yeah. It's, it's, it's very finer detail stuff. So sort of like you're making a miniature kind of- Yeah... s- situation. Exactly. I remember when, when I, I hired Evan to do... What did we do?
[21:24] Oh, Mavi Tequila. Oh, Mavi. That's right. So it was kind of sick. I stole these filters from Evan then. \[laughs\] He told me about these, like, these Lee diffusion filters. Oh, yeah. Oh, nice.
[21:30] 'Cause if you just shoot the bottle with just a straight light, it looks all weird. Yep, yep. It looks all, like, kinda harsh. Yeah. There, there's a, there's fun little tricks and things, like, with polarizers too.
[21:41] Mm-hmm. I don't think we did it on that one, but you can use two, two different polarizers, one for your lens and one for your light. Oh. And when you... They're circular polarizers.
[21:47] When you match them, you can get rid of the hot spots. It's a really cool, like, little trick. So it's- Yeah, it's- Yeah. There's such nuances that come with, with food. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like that is, um...
[22:00] I'd love to talk about your, like, positioning, and I think a big reason why you've been able to work with the brands that you're working with is because you've really positioned yourself as someone who shoots something specific at, like, the highest caliber.
[22:12] Um, when was that decision to kinda go all in on, on product and food, and, like- Yeah... what do you feel like is your unique value proposition with, with Naka Studios and just as Evan Tanaka?
[22:24] Um, I probably talked about this on the last pod. It was the pandemic. That's really- Yeah... when everything shifted for me, um, because I didn't, I...
[22:32] Before that I was shooting, like, streetwear and fashion brands and things like that, but then pandemic happened. You don't have access to models, so then I started shooting more product.
[22:40] Um, that's when I started really noticing, oh, you know, one, the follower count went up because I was really focused on showing the behind the scenes and the product.
[22:50] So that was good, but then it also started re- I started realizing, oh, people started knowing me more as the product guy.
[22:56] I think I was resistant for a while because, like most, I liked shooting fashion and streetwear and narrative pieces and those types of things, but it was like, "Okay, let me stop resisting," and this was probably maybe three, three and a half years ago.
[23:12] I was like, "No, I'm, I'm gonna own product. I'm gonna really sink my teeth in.
[23:16] I'm gonna be known for product and food, and if you want it shot, and especially in this, like, you know, super social first way, that's, you go to Evan. That's what you're gonna go for."
[23:28] Um, so I think once I made that decision, a lot of doors opened up for me, and I, the doors that I thought would remain closed slowly opened back up because it's then building that trust that you can nail this.
[23:42] Oh, if he can light-You know, a can and make it look sex- sexy. I'm sure you can light a person holding a can, uh, and make it look sexy. Okay, let's let Evan do that.
[23:51] It literally just happened with, uh, in Vancouver, so... Nice. What did you do in Vancouver? Um, yeah, I'm sure it's fine. Uh, Bud Light. Oh, wow. So I was working up there with Bud Light, so Vancouver.
[24:01] So I had shot with Anheuser Bus- Anheuser-Busch for, you know, the past couple years doing, like, Stagecoach with them, and had sh- shot a couple different productions with them.
[24:11] I was on the Post Malone shoot that they were doing. Um, and it was really product focused, and then now it's like, well, he shot... I shot Stella campaign for them with Hot Ones. Um, and now it's like, okay, he's...
[24:24] can do really good work with the product. Let's have the talent hold the product, and the talent they get to work with are amazing. So, you know, I get to work with some pretty cool people now.
[24:33] And so those doors are reopening now that I've own product, and now I'm moving into- Mm-hmm... a little bit bigger productions.
[24:39] What did you notice from, like, the Super Bowl Post Malone commercial versus something, like, on a much smaller scale?
[24:46] Maybe you were able to steal from being on, like, this crazy million-dollar spot and put into what you're doing- Oh, that-... at any level. You know what's interesting? I- I'll say this. The only...
[24:57] There, there are huge differences, but I think when you- It's a lot of the same shit, huh? It's... When you boil it down, it's- Yeah... a, a lot of it's the same shit, just bigger. More peeps. It's more people. Mm-hmm.
[25:06] It's actually more complicated, just because there's so many different levels. Mm.
[25:09] Like this, this shoot that we were just on, you know, there's three, four different agencies all involved, and that makes things really diff- Now, it was ne- necessary to make things work, but man, it is... It...
[25:21] The secret sauce that I think a lot of people are looking for, especially, like... I, I always watch the, the directors.
[25:28] Um, and I didn't really get to work with the main unit director on this one, so I didn't get to see him work or anything.
[25:33] But from my experience in the past for other, other productions, you know, I'm, I'm looking to s- you know, steal, learn. Yeah, yeah.
[25:40] I wa- I wanna adapt what they're doing because, man, they've been doing this for years. It's not that much difference. There really isn't. The prep, I don't get to see that.
[25:48] There's a lot of prep that goes into this that w- maybe we don't get to see. But when they're on set, the cool, calm, collected, like, things that you would already think makes a good director, you're right.
[25:59] That makes a good cor- director. If you... When you're on those bigger production, the million-dollar shoots, and you see, uh, you know, the, the team, everybody just knows their role. They're, they're ready to work.
[26:11] And then there, there is no secret sauce. Everybody's just working really fucking hard, and they know what exactly what they need to get done. You brought up that there's a DP that you work with. Yep.
[26:19] I'd love to talk about building your team- Yeah... trust within building your team, and how you started to build out your team.
[26:27] 'Cause a, a lot of questions we get is, you know, "I wanna work on these bigger sets, bigger brands. I wanna b- I wanna start forming my team. I don't really know where to even look at. Do I just tap into my network?"
[26:42] So I'm curious to see, like, how did you connect with the people that you're working with now, and, um, how has been building your team? Building your team is probably one of the hardest things to do. Like, it is...
[26:54] I, I've, I've... I work with a lot of different people, and I, I mean, I've been doing this now for, what, 10 years almost, and really, really professional work in the, probably in the past five, six years.
[27:06] And, like, it is still something that's ongoing, still trying to find those people. Now, I was really lucky to get introduced to the DP I w- I work with now, Matt Roe. Um, you know, shout out, shout out my man.
[27:17] Um, but, like, when I got introduced to him, he... I was working with a different production studio, and they were like, they just said, "You need to check out this guy, Matt.
[27:27] Um, he happens to be off his feature, and he's gonna be here and wants to w- work with you, or wants to work. Would you be open to having another... work with somebody?" I was like, "Of course."
[27:35] So I just think it's more of just being ready for those opportunities and saying yes, even if you're uncomfortable or you have a natural, you know, person that you gravitate towards.
[27:46] Uh, I'm not saying that who you're working with isn't right for you, but you still need to be open, and there's gonna be different DPs that are gonna be better for different projects, different, you know, photographers, different, uh, prop stylists, all of that.
[27:58] Um, and I, I still build my team. I'm still looking for the right people.
[28:01] But I think if you can find those core two, three people, if you're a director and you find that DP, maybe a prop stylist, they're way more valuable than you realize. Um, wardrobe stylist.
[28:13] If you find those core people in your team and that you can always call on, you're in a really good place to just be able to have trust in at least one major department, and then you can go focus on the rest.
[28:26] Uh, and I think that's what I'm trying to work towards now, is can I just trust the people that are in charge of all my different departments when it comes to set so I don't have to worry about that and I can get to a place where I truly just worry about the creative and the narrative that we're, the story we're trying to tell, uh, and make sure that that can get done.
[28:44] All of the finer details in terms of, like, how the lighting is gonna look, how the styling is gonna look, that can be handled with, you know, approvals obviously, but that will be handled by the people that I've built and brought in.
[28:55] Mm-hmm. But it's, it's hard. It's really difficult to find those people. On the flip side, if someone's listening to this and they're like, "I don't want to start my own agency or production company.
[29:04] I just wanna be a DP or a director, and I wanna work," or an AC, whatever it may be- Yep... how does that person get connected with production company, agency? You hit brothers like us. \[laughs\] Yeah. Um- Call, call us.
[29:19] \[laughs\] Yeah, call us. Yeah, yeah. Call me. Here's my number right here, under here. Like, have you been, have you been cold emailed from a- Oh, yeah... another DP or some- Oh, yeah... somebody else? Uh, yeah.
[29:30] Y- emails, DMs. I mean, it... Again, there's no secret to how to get in touch with those people.
[29:35] It is truly if you want to build that relationship and you want to start building and, and have that core, make whoever you're working for or reaching out to, make their life easy. Uh, and again, very basic, but it's...
[29:50] commonly just overlooked. It's when you... Okay, here, here's an example. Uh, let me loosen up for this one. So here's the example.
[29:59] Like, if you get hired by, okay, let's say you're, uh, a, a director and you're, you're a DP. Or excuse me, you're getting hired by the director and you're the DP.
[30:08] And you get brought on, and as the DP, you start giving pushback or you, you, you miss a meeting or, you know, something li- limited to that.
[30:18] Or it's just, you, there's always seems, you, you always meet the director's ideas with a little bit of hesitation.
[30:25] Um, and then when it comes to, you know, building gear lists and things like that, or if he, you need additional crew, if you're stopping that train from moving or you're just slowing it down,
[30:38] it's probably not gonna be a great relationship.
[30:41] If you're re- and, like, again, this, if you're still looking to make it and you're building that relationship and you're trying to find your director or whoever it is to work with and you get reached out by them and you're like, "I'm gonna build this," make their life easy.
[30:54] Just it, it's so simple. If you feel something, if you're like, "Hey, I'm gonna anticipate this 'cause I know you're gonna need it," they're gonna s- appreciate it, like, beyond.
[31:04] If you have a relationship with a rental house, like, "I got a relationship with a rental house. Do you wanna go there, or do you have something existing?" They may have something existing, but great.
[31:12] At least he sees or she sees that you're already taking the steps to get the production moving in the right direction, and you're aiding instead of just, like, taking orders and marching orders.
[31:24] And then if you meet those marching orders with a bit of resistance, "Oh, I don't think I can do that. Oh, well, how long is the day? Oh, it's, I'm, I'm only gonna be on for a 10.
[31:33] Uh, are we gonna be like 30 minutes after? How long is lunch? Is lunch gonna be a long time?" Uh, it's like little things like that that a- really- Bro, I'm dealing with that right now...
[31:40] you, um- Fucking drives me crazy... I, like, and, and look, like \[laughs\] you- Oh my God... everybody has the right to want those things. Sure.
[31:47] But if you do that, and you have the right to, people will take that shit personally. Uh-huh.
[31:52] And they're gonna feel it, and they know, like, "Okay, so-and-so is good at their job, but fuck, man, they just, they always complain. They're always complaining on set of the crafty's not good enough.
[32:02] Oh, they, they d- they didn't get me a coffee on set." Like, that l- Uh-huh...
[32:05] that shit happens all the time, and it's just like, it's an eye roll moment, but those things add up and you're like, "I don't wanna work with that person again." Well, especially- It just makes it difficult...
[32:13] especially in a city like LA where there's so many talented people. There's so many talented people. Like- It's like you can find someone who's really good at their job- Yeah... and doesn't fucking complain. Yeah.
[32:20] Like, a- and it, and it's crazy. And then okay, here- here's other smaller things. Renegotiating prices during your shoots, like, that's wild to me. So, like, I've had that happen to me where- No. Really?...
[32:31] I've hi- yes. No. Like, you hire somebody, and you're like, "Here, this is the scope." And you're not changing scope. And, and, like, changing scope is totally understandable. Sure. You need to, like, do that.
[32:39] Yeah, I'll hire somebody and b- I'll be like, "Hey, I heard you're $1,000. And we're gonna hire you for $1,000." And they're like, "Cool, I'm in." And then you start b- going into production.
[32:49] Two days, day before, they're like, "Hey, you know what? I just realized that, uh, this is, you know, uh, it's gonna be a long day for me, so can I get, like, maybe $1,300?"
[33:00] And you're just kinda like, "Dude," like, it's the day before. What am I gonna say? No or yes? Fuck off. So then you're like- That's wild. That's crazy. So what, what are you gonna...
[33:07] If I say no, are you just gonna s- not work with us- Yeah. Yeah... now?
[33:10] And, like, we've, you've known the creative, you've known the prep, and now day before, you're just like, "Hey, can I get a little extra because- That's crazy... it's a long day for me."
[33:18] It's like, it's a long day for everybody, bud. Yeah. Like, and so those, those things, you're not gonna work with that person again. Uh-huh. So keep that in mind. Man. That's actually insane. Yeah.
[33:27] I- you're, you're also... You're one of the few creative people who has an MBA. I- Yeah... yeah.
[33:32] And I wanna know if running your business now today, if you've s- taken a lot of those things from the greatest alma mater, University of Oregon- \[laughs\] Yeah... over Wisconsin. Yeah, your MBA- Or-...
[33:43] must not mean shit \[laughs\] Or, or, or if you felt like you could have just built the relationships from running it and learning it and figuring out, or if you felt like a lot of that stuff that you ended up taking.
[33:54] Dude, that's a great question. That- I'll give you a dap on that. That, that's good. I appreciate that, guys. Um- That wasn't even in the notes... I would say a little. Uh-huh.
[34:03] Like, uh, and being completely honest, you know? It's the same with our m- with, like, advertisers saying- I, I think it- Yeah, you gotta- There's no school better than experience, right? Mm.
[34:13] Uh- \[laughs\] There's no school better than Oregon. \[laughs\] There's no school better than Oregon. With that being said. With that being said. Didn't learn too much. Yeah \[laughs\]. Didn't learn anything.
[34:20] Uh, yeah, I think the, if I can attribute the MBA to anything, it is more of understanding that this is a business, not a hobby.
[34:34] And again, that seems to be very obv- I feel like this is the title of this podcast, like The Obvious Podcast.
[34:40] Um, but it's like, it's, it's one of those things, like I understand that there's a business, uh, that I'm running, but a business that they're running and a business that the brand is running.
[34:50] They're, everybody is trying to better theirselves, and since I have that understanding, it's like, okay, again, what can I do to make their lives easier?
[34:59] Um, but, like, apples to apples of like, oh, you know, my finance degree or m- the finance class I took here is paying off here. No, I don't remember that shit.
[35:08] Um, it's truly what grad school does for you is the relationships. Mm-hmm. And now I'm starting to see that benefit a lot, actually.
[35:14] So on that point, that, that'll be the answer is the relationships from grad school, um, where the people that... And I, I think this goes for any college degree or anything.
[35:25] Not with, not Wisconsin, but- Not Wisconsin, obviously... yeah, but like a duck thing, I guess. In a duck thing, 'cause, you know, we're more creative than ducks. But do the ducks fly and the ducks hire ducks, man?
[35:32] Exactly. And every time, and like no joke- No, seriously... any time that I work- The ducks hire-... with an agency or anything that's up in Portland- Yeah... and, you know, 90% of them came from Oregon.
[35:41] If I, I'm on the call and they don't know that I went to UO, and I'm just like, "Oh, by the way, I went to UO," they're just like, "Oh, \[laughs\] fuck. This guy." Yeah.
[35:48] And everybody just rips it off and have the O just tattooed on their chest. \[laughs\] Fucking A, this guy. They're just like, "I'm now fully Torqued." Right? \[laughs\] I'm ready. I'm ready for the job. I'm ready for this.
[35:57] Uh- No, but they have. The Ducks have hired me a lotThey're like- Yeah... tons, tons of ducks And I think the, what really benefited me right out of grad school was I, I went to finance.
[36:07] I'm sure, again, I'm sure I talked about this last time, but I went into finance, uh, worked there, and when I wanted my first creative job, my first, like, uh, production, uh, video, photo job, um, a duck put me in touch with somebody else who was a former duck too, and they knew each other, and then I worked with them for a while.
[36:25] Um, and that got my foot in the door in actually having a full-time, uh, creative production job. College is a networking tool, man. It, it is.
[36:32] And now I see, like, my, my classmates, like, are all doing some greater great things, and like tomorrow I literally have a call with one of them for an upcoming project, and I haven't talked to her in, you know, five years professionally.
[36:44] You know, we talk here and there, but she's like, "Hey, I'm in a position that now we can bring you in. Let's talk." And it's, and it's, that's how it works. Mm.
[36:52] So it's like putting in the, the time then, have a good reputation at your college or whatever you're doing so that when they get down the road and they can do the hiring, you're ready.
[37:02] Has social media been probably like one of your best investments for time to building out the business? Yeah. Thus far. Yeah, 1,000%. Um, I would not be here if it weren't for social media. There is...
[37:16] Uh, you know, it goes back to say there's so many talented people that do this now that w- you need to get in front of them in the right way. Like, it is...
[37:26] If you don't have that marketing tool and getting in front of people, uh, it's really difficult. It's hard. So it, it, it was definitely the best investment in my time to get to me in a place of like, okay,
[37:39] we see that he exists. Now let's see what he can do. Mm. Dude, I'm just laughing because- \[laughs\] I see you chuckling over there. Yeah, what the fuck's he laughing about? Nobody knows.
[37:49] So me and Evan- If you're thinking about the Highball w- was it the can thing that we, you, Chris, a- \[laughs\] and I would do like- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but-... one of the first things at the Bethesda...
[37:56] I was just, I'm laughing because I remember- Find that video somewhere... Evan was hopping on TikTok, and this was after we, I had met him for like... This was maybe like the third time I was hanging out or something.
[38:07] Yeah. \[laughs\] And he just comes over and he opens up TikTok. Goes, "Man, just plus 99 every time I open this app." \[laughs\] Oh, the glory days. Plus 99. Plus 99. Man.
[38:17] You can't even equate how many- That dopamine hit, dude. \[laughs\] That, that- There's nothing like 2020 TikTok... nothing like plus 99, dude... dude, 2020 TikTok was, uh, absolutely insane. Oh, my God. What a good time.
[38:27] Good time, man. It was, it was funny because when we, the first time we ever hang, hung out, and this is such a LA thing in my opinion, it was like we hung out, but it was like, "Let's make some content." Yeah.
[38:37] Yeah, yeah. We, I know we went to your place, and then we went to my house. Yeah. Remember when it was empty and va- it had no furniture. I had just- Yeah... moved in there. And then we were...
[38:45] \[laughs\] You, AV, and I were shooting the content- Yeah... out there. \[laughs\] Yeah, that was great. That was the good times, man. Okay, staying on the business topic. Sure.
[38:53] Let's talk about building out margins as a company and actually making money. Sure. Because I think that- Great... a lot of freelancers, they're just like, "Okay, yeah, this is the shoot.
[39:04] It's 1,000 bucks or 1,500 bucks." Yeah. And it's like, "This is what it costs to come to shoot- Yep... and edit," and that's just like what it is. They're kinda just pulling a, a price out of their ass, honestly. Yeah.
[39:17] Um- I mean, that's production in general. I mean, that's like half the battle. Like, it is just pulling it out of your ass. What are you worth? Mm-hmm. What do you feel like you're worth today? Mm-hmm.
[39:25] Like, and then tomorrow you're gonna feel like you're worth less or more. \[laughs\] Like, it's just how it goes, man. Like, I, I've had people send me their rate cards. I'm just like, "This is cute."
[39:34] Like, y- this rate card is gonna be, it's all over the place.
[39:38] And like, it, it truly is up to the person that wants the job is what they're willing to either be flexible, because some jobs are gonna be paying more, some jobs are gonna be paying less.
[39:48] It's up to you to decide, are you gonna stick to your rate, or are you gonna stick to something else? Or if you're gonna be flexible to something else. And that's, that's hard take. Mm-hmm. Hard take on that.
[39:58] Well, it's fair. I mean, if they come to you and they're like, "It's 10,000," you were like, "This should be 30,000, but I want it." Yeah, exactly. I'll do, I'll do it. It, I mean, we've all been there, right? Yeah.
[40:07] It's not like a... I, I agree, we should all be paid our worth and we should, you know, work to that, but I mean, it, sometimes the, the bigger shoot- I'd rather be a brand than not shooting, man... exactly. Yeah.
[40:19] And, uh, like, the industry right now, it's tough. In terms of the, the commercial spot, the bigger commercial spot world, it's tough in LA.
[40:28] So i- I've seen DPs who are cinematic shooters that have worked on features shooting with iPhones just to get the job. Wow. So it's like,
[40:38] when I get faced with people that are so hardcore of like, "This is my rate and nothing less," good luck.
[40:45] And I, I appreciate you, uh, on sticking to your guns, but it's gonna be a really hard time to build those relationships that I'm talking about because
[40:56] my, my rate will fluctuate so much that I'll be making, you know, 50% less on one shoot, and then I'll be making 100% more on the next.
[41:05] 'Cause it is just so, it's such an up-and-down battle based on the brands, based on their budget, based on the, the ask, the deliverables, and it's up to you. Do you want the job?
[41:15] Do you wanna build a relationship with them? Do you wanna prove your worth? Or are you just gonna stick to what your rate card says and, and that's it? So it, it's, it, it, it's a, it's a hard game to play.
[41:26] We talked about this on the, on the pre-show call, but on the topic also of you running a business and, like, pitching more ideas,
[41:33] can you talk to a brand comes to you and they have a certain scope, they have an idea of what they want out of this production, but then maybe you throw out some ideas that is gonna allow the budget to increase a little bit, but you do it in a tasteful way?
[41:46] It's not like you're telling them or offering ideas of something that is not a value to them or, like, they don't need at all or won't want at all. You know, adding, finding ways to add money to the budget-...
[42:01] that isn't already scoped for is really tough. Um, 'cause usually, at least in my world, when I- I'm going into, so like a commercial spot, even though, let's say it's a, a million dollar production,
[42:15] by the time they're already doing the hiring, they've already gotten the budget to where it needs to be, and they've allotted different departments with the, that budget.
[42:23] So if I come to them with an idea of like, "Hey, I know that we're gonna be shooting, um, you know, this certain concept, but then let's say I wanna...
[42:31] What if we brought in a slow motion camera and we're gonna have things falling from the sky and it's gonna look super sick?" Yeah, it's gonna look sick.
[42:37] Great idea, but now you're talking about bringing in a Phantom, a Phantom tech.
[42:41] Uh, you, you need the drives to be able to hold that, and then you're talking about a post-processing process that's not already budgeted for. So you just expanded their budget by 10, 15 grand, and that ain't gonna fly.
[42:52] So I think where it a-... So to... My point is adding money to a budget post them already figuring out what that is is really hard, 'cause nobody wants to go back to Brandon and ask for more money.
[43:07] Um, but if you can find ways to get them more content, that's gonna get you more jobs. So if...
[43:13] A- and I think, you know, something that's really important on that note is m- give them more without making your lift heavier. If you can figure that out...
[43:22] Now, there's a secret that I think a lot of creators can take with them, is what can I give you that's... give you that you're gonna feel like you're getting more without making my workload heavier?
[43:31] And I'll give you an example. Um, let's say you're a photographer and you're doing a tabletop shot, and it's a pouring, uh, you know, we're, we're pouring this smartwater into a glass of water.
[43:43] And the, the deliverable, the scope is they just want one still of that frozen liquid going into the, into the glass. You can give them a GIF, GIF, whatever.
[43:52] You can give them that, and that takes no extra effort in terms of your production.
[43:57] Now, if they want it edited, different, but if you're just gonna hand them over the photos, what, that takes you an extra minute, two minutes- Yeah... to export.
[44:04] And in terms of the actual workflow on set, no extra time, 'cause you're gonna have to burst shoot anyways. So that right there is a perfect example of you're increasing your worth and your value- Yeah...
[44:14] to the brand, to the agency, without making your job really that much harder, if, if not at all. So that, that's something that I think is more important than trying to find ways to add money to the budget.
[44:24] I'll give you an example of something I recently did. I went and shot a hotel, and I gave them four videos. That was, like, what the scope of work was. Mm. I gave them five, uh, five still videos for a carousel post.
[44:41] I didn't shoot anything more, and I basically just took moments from the already edited reels, and I exported them as single frames. Yep, yep. So they asked for four pieces of content.
[44:52] I got them five, and it really did me, or it really took me not much longer. Not much longer. Yeah. 10 minutes. You know, you're just doing the exports. You're pulling them out, and I think that's such a perfect example.
[45:02] Same thing with Panda Express, going back to them. I'll, I'll do a tabletop shoot with them, and we have like... For a tabletop day, we're looking at anywhere from 9 to 11 shots that we can get on a day,
[45:13] uh, and, and for, like, the slow motion stuff, and we shot with an Ember on this last one.
[45:17] But, you know, we have our final spot, but then I, I can offer them, "Hey, if you want individual clips of the wok toss, because that's a cool moment and that could be a good teaser, let me just give you the string out of that.
[45:29] It's colored because it's colored already, and I can give that to you, and, you know, maybe give you a 9 by 16, a 16 by 9, whatever you need." And that's an extra asset, that extra deliverable. You're also giving...
[45:40] You're taking the initiative to understand what their needs are, and that goes a long way. Yeah, 100%. That, yeah, that's the difference maker. Are you typically...
[45:49] Because you're shooting a lot of stuff for social, are you typically shooting vertical, or do you find a lot of these brands are wanting a wide version- Dude, it's everything. It's everything...
[45:58] and then you're just, like, shooting for the vertical in mind? Vertical in mind. It is still... It's so rare that we get to flip camera and shoot solely 9:16. Mm. It's always 16:9, then we crop for 9:16.
[46:10] Uh, yeah, I'm trying to think of, like, the last professional production that we've done that only required 9 by 16.
[46:18] If it's social and we're shooting with phones, that's one thing, but any time we pull out the big camera, it's rare that we're, like, locked in. Everybody wants that 16:9 safety. Yeah. Like, are they using it, though?
[46:32] Beats me, man. \[laughs\] Beats me. I think, I honestly think it's the crutch of the industry right now of, you know- Maybe YouTube... like, the what if. Maybe YouTube. Maybe YouTube.
[46:41] Uh, and it- Maybe they'll toss it on YouTube... and that's usually the go-to, is, like, we might run it as YouTube ads, and if we wanna do that, then we need a 16:9.
[46:49] Um, but I have been in the situation where I shoot something 9:16, and then I get asked for the 16:9 version, and I go, "Fuck." \[laughs\] And- Oh...
[46:55] and then I do a up-res Topaz, and then- \[laughs\] Or you do, like, a cool social edit, and you have, like, individual frames- Mm... that the three frame thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We both know.
[47:05] You're using Nano Banana to generative expand? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've done that. Oh, I, I l-... Yeah, I, I've done that. That one's good. Do they ha- do they have that, um, for video yet?
[47:13] Well, you'd have to get the still, and then you'd make it a video. Yeah.
[47:16] So in the tabletop world, uh, a lot of the times, not on purpose, but a lot of times the camera w- doesn't move unless you're getting, like, a Moco arm or something like that. Sure.
[47:27] Um, but if it's s- if I can do a shot without moving camera, you're so safe, and I've done that many times- Sure... of having to just build out the s- the s- left side or the right side or both. I was doing a food shoot.
[47:41] I'm not gonna name the brand because it's already out there. Um, and it was a top-down shot of all the food, and we were dropping a package into there. Now I'm sure somebody could find that, what brand I'm talking about.
[47:52] But we shot that 9:16, and it... They need the 9:16, or the 16:9 version. Yeah. So I did use some, some, uh, some other help to expand that scene. Uh-huh. And it worked out great. Mm. Can't tell.
[48:06] That's how, that's how it's done, dude.Before we started rolling, Brayden, you, you and Brayden were talking about tripod costs- Yeah... and how expensive gear is. Bro, it's crazy.
[48:17] What gear have you found that you've invested in that has been worth it- Mm... versus, like, have you invested in certain gear that it's a really unique thing that you think you're gonna use a lot, and it- Yeah...
[48:28] you think it's gonna elevate your production, and it, you really... You, you've opened it once, used it, and you're like, "Ah, just haven't really touched it"? Do I? I'm sure I have. \[laughs\] Ah.
[48:36] I know, I know I, I buy so much gear. I just, I got an extension on my 2025 taxes, and so we're still... I just sent it over to my accountant, and it's like, that's how much money I spent on gear last year?
[48:47] Oh my God, how, how do we eat? Um, I know that I have... The slow motion camera that I, I bought, the Freefly Ember, I love that camera. I'm probably one of very few people that use it for food. Hm.
[49:02] Um, which I don't know why they haven't reached out to me. Um, but- They will now... that, that's what I, that's why I'm here. Mm-hmm. That's the whole point. Yeah, yeah, that's the whole point. Duh.
[49:10] Uh, no, it, that h- that in itself, it was such a value add that I can give to brands because it is expensive. I mean, it, it's 20 grand, 25 for the full build-out. Um, so it's not cheap.
[49:23] There is a bigger barrier to entry versus, like, getting an FX3 or something like that. Um, it's also harder to use. Uh, and you have to have the right kind of light, the right kind of people that are involved with it.
[49:33] Yeah, you need a ton of light for it, right? You need a ton of light. Yeah. It, it is, it's a bigger...
[49:38] It, it's, it's a lot more to it than just buying the camera, so I'm not recommending people just go out and buy an Ember and invest that money.
[49:44] But for me, in my world, I can say, "Hey, do we wanna shoot this in slow motion?" And this is, like, early day talk, and I can get them excited about it. Mm. And I'm like, "Hey, I got this camera.
[49:54] Nobody else got this camera." \[laughs\] "I, I got this. \[laughs\] This is gonna be fire, baby." And they're like- \[laughs\]... "Oh, what is it?" "This is a Freefly Ember." And, uh- \[laughs\]
[50:02] And they're like, "Oh, what is that?" And, "This is so special. Nobody else has it."
[50:05] And they'll, they get really excited 'cause then you can show them the ex- the sexy pours and the, the food falling, and that's what they want, they just are, don't have access to it. Mm.
[50:14] And they don't know how much money it's actually gonna cost. And now it's the baby brother of the Phantom, but we can get them a lot of cool stuff with that camera. So that's been a huge one.
[50:23] Um, and then I park it at a rental house, Rare Breeds, and it gets rented out by a lot of people, so you know, that camera's probably paid for itself by now.
[50:31] Um, and then, you know, the one that I thought was a huge investment piece, and it hasn't really worked out too well, is the FX6. Like- Really? Oh, interesting... you didn't, you didn't think it was a good investment?
[50:43] No, 'cause I used it a lot early on. Okay. I like, I got super excited, like, with the bigger cinema camera. Mm. Now I'm more legit.
[50:51] And then I just found, like, man, the FX3 really just gives me that same quality that I'm looking for. Now the built-in NDs and all that stuff.
[50:59] But for what I do, when it calls for a nicer camera, we're gonna get a, a nicer camera. We're gonna go into the Reds. We're gonna get into the REs, like, um, the higher end Sonys.
[51:10] Um, and the FX6 rarely gets used anymore. That's interesting. And, 'cause if it's gonna be quicker things, I, I opt for the FX3 with an ND on it every time because it's just like- Small... I know, I know that camera.
[51:23] Uh-huh. It's small. Also, the ISO on the FX6 is weird, the dual base. Like it still- What is it?... has no... It's, I mean, same with the FX3. Oh. But- It's got some noise at 12.8? But it's noisy at the 12.8. Mm.
[51:32] And it's weird. Like, I always take it to 12, 12.8, back it off to, like, a 10. Um, FX3, I've never seen that issue, ever. So it's, that was, like, a big one for me of, like, this is, I always opt for the FX3. Yeah.
[51:45] So FX6 was one of them. And then there's, like, little pieces of gear. I remember I was, uh, shooting
[51:51] multicam stuff at the same time, so I bought a big monitor that was gonna have multiple, like, \[laughs\] images stream to it. Used it once. Nice, like, four grand monitor, and I was like, "Nah, nope, don't ever use that.
[52:03] Anybody wanna buy it?" \[laughs\] Like, "That'd be great to get rid of that one." Um- Has the studio been a good investment? Studio's been awesome. Studio, without a doubt, one of the best. We, uh, so I own that studio.
[52:15] Uh, it is, it is constantly working. It's a fucking mess. Dude, you've got a real estate portfolio. \[laughs\] You're, you're, you're fronting as a production company. He's a real estate guy.
[52:28] But you're really a real estate investor. Yeah, it's like McDonald's, you know? Yeah. \[laughs\] You know? You own the space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. You own the space. If you... Yeah. Own the land. Own the land.
[52:35] Uh, yeah, I mean, that's, that's the goal, right? It's, uh, I think that's something that I did early on in my career is, um... I mean, I, I've thought this way since early on. Maybe this is NBA. I don't know.
[52:47] Maybe it's just me being worried that my back's gonna give out and I can't hold a camera at some point in my life.
[52:52] But I, I, early on, when I was, like, running around the streets with ThreadBeast, I don't know if you remember that brand. Like, early on subscription box streetwear brand.
[53:02] Um, I'm running around literally holding clothes on my back. I have one camera in hand with a gimbal, and it was an R, Sony R II.
[53:11] And I'm shooting video on that thing as well, and you're not supposed to do that, but whatever. I didn't know the difference.
[53:15] Not even fucking coloring the footage, 'cause I had no idea what a, what coloring was, but it was, so it was all log that I was sending over to them. \[laughs\] That's great. That's perfect. Yeah.
[53:24] You're like, "This is what the camera says." And they loved it. It was like, "This is street, bro." So, so vintage. It's so fucking street. So vintage, man. \[laughs\] Uh, and it was so bad.
[53:33] Uh, I remember, too, like, on the streets of Fairfax, I was walking along, and this is early on, and somebody was like, "Yo, man, what kind of glass you got on there?" And I thought he was talking about a lens filter.
[53:44] So I was like, "Oh, it's an ND." \[laughs\] "It's a, it's a variable ND." And he was just like, "Okay." \[laughs\] I was like, "All right. Yeah, cool, bro." Um, yeah, that, that was a, had no idea what I was doing.
[53:56] Um, but even back then, I saw what my future was. I was like, I know in 10 years I can't do this. I can't be rolling around the ground.
[54:04] I can't be doing, holding cameras like this and just r- this can't be my workflow for me- Yeah... when I'm a bit older.
[54:12] Uh, and I've approached every situation like that for my career ofYeah, social is fun here, but what am I gonna do in 10 years?
[54:21] Am, am I gonna be doing the same, you know, skits or same type of BTS, or is it gonna evolve? How is that gonna evolve?
[54:27] Um, so it's something that's constantly on my mind of all that, and that goes into the real estate play. Not that I'm, like, a real estate tycoon by any means, or, like, not even close. I shouldn't even say that.
[54:36] But it's just like, okay, if I'm gonna invest in a studio, what am I gonna... Am I gonna rent it out, or can I go a little smaller and buy something to build a foundation? And I'm always foundation guy.
[54:48] Build your foundation, build on top of that. Don't s- stretch out and overreach and then have to backpedal later on. It always is a level up game for me, not a backpedal. Mm. Mm.
[55:00] The studio is so handy, though, and I feel it with here, 'cause now that we have a space that's set up, it's like, could never not do this. Yeah. This is a bitch to- Well, and it's your...
[55:09] It's a, it's a fish tank, right? You... I'm sure you know the, uh, the fishbowl, um, metaphor, whatever thing is you're only gonna grow as big as your fishbowl. Ah. Mm-hmm. Um, and so it's the same thing for me.
[55:22] It's like, yeah, I've moved into that studio, and it was great because I had come from the garage. It was time to get out of the garage and move into something a bit bigger. Um, it went... I think my garage was
[55:34] 250 square feet, something like that. Now my studio's 1,200 square feet, so still small in the relative eyes of other production studios, but for me, it was great.
[55:43] Now it's, I'm filling out my fishbowl, and now it's time to start looking at something else. Interesting. And so it... 'Cause now it's...
[55:49] We've, we've done so much there, it start- it's starting to feel like a workshop because I have so many p- like, props and surfaces, and, uh, all the gear is there, and now we just, now we just need to level up.
[56:01] How big do you wanna go? Oh, great question. Uh, as big as we can, baby. Like, I would love to get, like, 3,500. Oh, wow. You wanna triple. Yeah, 4,000 square feet. Wow. If we could get something that size.
[56:13] Uh, we're in the place that we need, you know, offices and, uh, like, war room and conference table and stuff like that. War room? War room. Yeah. See like that. Um. \[laughs\] Kitchen.
[56:26] Like, that would be great to have- So, yes... an actual kitchen for all the food that we do. Well, he's gonna sleep there. Yeah. That's the whole play. This is, I'm there. So moving the family into the studio. Yeah.
[56:33] Like, that's what we're doing. Well, I was gonna say, you know, you just, you never took Anisa back to Japan, so. \[laughs\] Yeah, see if she sticks around. \[laughs\] Man, she's gonna lose it on me. \[laughs\] Uh, no.
[56:43] Yeah, it's like having the kitchen, have all that, so yeah. Big dreams ahead. So hopefully we get there someday.
[56:49] Do you, do you feel worried at all with AI in the space of what you're in, or do you feel like because of the limitations around food that, like, it's safe? Solid question. Um, so I, I do think with AI and food,
[57:06] th- this is not backed up by any research. This is all, this is all vibes. This is, this is all here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what I think and how I'm- Yeah, yeah... coping \[laughs\] with the situation.
[57:15] Yeah, this is all, this is the Oregon- Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, this is Oregon MBA speaking right now. MBA speaking. Yeah, yeah. We just throw shit out there- Yeah, yeah... and just like, "That's right, right?" Yeah.
[57:21] You know, that, that feels right. Um, but there are so many rules and restrictions around food and what you can and can't do in terms of advertising. Like, you have to use the right products, and you have to...
[57:30] If you're gonna be selling something, um, that is, uh, if you're selling the food that you're showing, you can't be using non, like, ingredients on it. So
[57:41] that, my, my take on this with AI is, one, since that's already in place, food is gonna be really hard to touch.
[57:47] Uh, if you're making fake food and you're selling fake food and it's not real, like, you're not gonna be able to do that. It's very similar, like, to toys.
[57:55] Like, you can't show, you can't sell toys to kids when in a so- a commercial spot. It has to be a certain percentage of real toys to any animation. Um, so the- Oh...
[58:06] kids don't get into their minds that it, this toy can, you know, walk and talk and do something like that. Coast, that's, you know, so that's- Yeah... you know, don't wanna mislead people like you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[58:15] And so, like, same with food. \[laughs\] It's the same thing. You, you can't mislead, mislead the consumer. Um, and then on top of that, you know, we're, we're such in a society of organic and health. Yes. Like, we...
[58:29] How, uh, to me in my mind, the way my brain works, it's how can a brand who preaches organic, community, authenticity, like, all of these things, and then they use AI to show their product?
[58:40] Like, that, how, how does that make any sense for your brand ethos? Mm-hmm.
[58:45] So I think that world, if they're doing that, I think that's a problem because you're already showing a disconnect from your understanding of who you are as a brand and a product.
[58:54] Um, but, uh, the brands that are gonna realize that, yeah, I think AI's not gonna be able to touch at least the product itself for a long time. Mm.
[59:02] What other industries or what industries do you feel like will be heavily affected by AI? In, in production world. Like- Yeah... yeah. In production world? Yeah, yeah. Like- Oh, like, so- In, like-...
[59:13] below the line type stuff of like, uh- No. More, more so, like, industry, like, uh, a niche. Different niches. Yeah, yeah. Like hotels or- Mm... sports or whatever. Like, I think, I think hotels is relatively safe.
[59:24] I think sports are safe. I think sports. That was one that I, I've always said, too, is, uh, I'm an advocate for that because just live entertainment- Yeah... in general. Live entertainment. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[59:33] Um, for event capture and that kind of stuff. Yeah. There, there's gonna be areas where AI's gonna help it and elevate it. Yeah. But I think in terms of, like, boots on the ground, it's safe for a while. Like weddings.
[59:44] Weddings ain't going nowhere. Like, yeah, wedding. Wedding, yeah. \[laughs\] The wedding, the wedding peeps are s- That would be nuts, the first AI wedding video... are set, dude. They are set.
[59:50] Yeah, they're gonna own the world there. I feel like for w- Uh, fashion I think is gonna be tough. Mm. Yes. Uh, I, 'cause I think there's just a lot of, uh- Shit, you can't even tell... room.
[1:00:00] You can't even tell what's- Can't even tell. Like- Yeah. Fashion's interesting. So my mom has a girls' clothing line, and she's been- Plug it... she's been use-- Malibu Sugar.
[1:00:09] \[laughs\] She's been using a lot of AI images, though. Yeah. But it's just because she's like, "We're about to launch this new thing. I don't have... I'm actually about to go on a trip.
[1:00:18] I don't have time to do a new photo shoot. Something's better than nothing." Nothing, yeah. And alsoShe'll sell not just clothing, but acc- My, my question, though, is what did they do before that?
[1:00:29] Like, she, her mom says she doesn't have time to do the shoot. What, what, what would she have done before AI? Just not had the content. Just not have it. Just like- Yeah, she, uh, she, she's also, um...
[1:00:41] This is a whole different conversation- \[laughs\]... but, like- Puts you in the hot seat. How you like it? There's, uh... There... She hasn't done a ton of, like, marketing.
[1:00:49] She's built her really great business, uh, from doing trade shows in person- Yeah... building the relationships with the actual brands. So she's been stepping more into the social stuff. Um, but yeah, we started doing...
[1:01:02] I started helping her with l- more lifestyle shoots, uh, a little over a year ago, um, which have been great, but yet she's been using AI to, you know, with, uh, with some of the accessories, like bracelets and all that kind of stuff is, um, maybe she'll take a photo and then she can use AI to kind of build out the world.
[1:01:23] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, it's... I think that... I think AI's gonna get so good. Yeah. 'Cause right now some of the images you'll look at and you can... You're like, "It's good," but you can tell that it's AI.
[1:01:33] For sure. I could see where it could get scary.
[1:01:37] I think it, it could get scary, but I think there's gonna be some type of control on it that allows people to know that this was shot using AI, which it- I think there has to be... has to be.
[1:01:45] And they're already kind of doing that- Yeah, there's, there's-... in certain circumstances... there's definitely gonna be a fucking stamp- Yeah... and it's gonna be big.
[1:01:51] I think location-based shoots are gonna be kind of tough coming up here. Like, there- that's gonna be something. Kind of what you just said, how b- she'll take a picture of the product, then build it out. Yeah.
[1:02:01] So I think... Like, I, I literally just saw something where, uh, they did a photo shoot and this, you know, woman with a fashion brand and she was sitting on, uh, a white cube in a studio- Yeah... and that was it.
[1:02:13] There was nothing. And then they put her somewhere else. They put her on a train. Oh. And it was epic looking. Now, I'm not saying that it was just, like, a prompt and then there you go. Yeah. Totally, totally.
[1:02:22] I get what you mean. And I'm sure there was a lot of, uh, finessing there. Yeah. But that shot that they probably woulda had to get on the train, 'cause she's, like, looking out a window- Yeah...
[1:02:30] and that camera had to be out there, that's a, you know- Bro... $100,000 production if more, you know? Mm-hmm. They probably did that for 10 grand, and then the editing took maybe three grand for that.
[1:02:41] I think it's gonna be hy- So- I think it'll be, like, hybrid, like you're saying. You'll still... You'll shoot it on the nice camera- Yeah...
[1:02:46] maybe, or you'll do it on a stage, and then you'll have the LED thing, and then you'll put it somewhere else if you want it- Yeah... to be somewhere else, and you'll save 100 grand- All the... Yeah...
[1:02:54] for the permits- All the travels. Yeah... all the stuff like that. Yeah. And you can do it inside. Exactly. And it'll still...
[1:02:59] You'll still have humans doing, like, the- I think, I think the human aspect, I'd be, I'd be shocked if we just totally eliminate the human aspect, especially in, like, fashion and stuff like that. Yeah.
[1:03:10] If we're eliminating the models because- Yeah... we're using AI, full AI people too, that would be insane to me, but maybe. I was having a conversation- That, that one's a little- Yeah... I don't know.
[1:03:22] I was having a conversation with someone about this the other day, and we were trying to interview someone who does the Planet Earth docs. Mm.
[1:03:28] And something that I think about that specifically, why I think it's so fucking cool, is it's so hard and difficult for them to get those shots. Yeah. So it's like there is that aspect of this was so hard- Yeah...
[1:03:39] for you guys to get that it makes it that much cooler. Yep. It- It, like, diminishes it if it's- Yes. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's the story behind it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, like, how photography is. Totally.
[1:03:47] It's not necessarily just the shot. It's the fact that you were in the right place at the right time- Yeah, the story behind it... the right moment. Yeah, yeah. Like, the, uh... I just saw, who's the photographer?
[1:03:56] I'm gonna get just fricking raked for not knowing his name. That shot the famous Muhammad Ali shot, and he's, like, standing over- Oh. Uh, we met him at Sony condo. Um, I don't know. We...
[1:04:05] Uh, no, you didn't, didn't- Oh, you get the invite. Oh. Oh, damn. God damn it, dude. Well, well, Brayden's never got the invite. God damn. \[laughs\] Was there, got that plus one on the gang, baby.
[1:04:15] Yeah, that was pretty amazing. Come on, dude. Shit. Um- I would be fucking pissed if I didn't get the invite, and I went. Yeah. \[laughs\] 'Cause that means you got axed from the list. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying?
[1:04:22] Yeah, but I heard it, I heard it wasn't sick. But I never made it. Dude, it was so sick. \[laughs\] I heard it wasn't that sick. \[laughs\] It was crazy. Different when you never make it on. Yeah, yeah.
[1:04:28] But, like, to go and then get axed? Nah, true. Crazy work, bro. Dude, it's crazy to get... You know, this is, like- \[laughs\] Is he fucking talking? Crazy work, dude... it's, like, it's, like, it doesn't matter.
[1:04:38] No, no, no. You never got invited in the first place. It's cra- Like, it doesn't matter. It's- Like, I get that... it's- It's just, like, they made a mistake... a lot of talking- Exactly, bro. No, no, no, no. Whoops.
[1:04:45] Exactly, bro. No. A lot of talking. Like- A lot of talking from the 300 section. Dude, up in the nosebleeds, bro. Brayden's in the fucking 500 section at SoFi. Bro, this guy's wearing an owner's club suit.
[1:04:55] Can't even, can't even see. I didn't want, I didn't want to go, though, bro. Brayden didn't even have a ticket to the game. I didn't want to go, dude. Dude didn't have a ticket to the game, dude.
[1:05:00] \[laughs\] Uh, did not even mean it for it to go that way, but, uh, yeah. Anyways, time, place, that's what makes the photo sick. That's what I was trying to get at.
[1:05:08] \[laughs\] So I threw on, I threw on Planet Earth the other night, and Sarah Catherine is just like, "What are you watching?" I go, "I don't wanna, I don't wanna watch any more reality TV.
[1:05:20] I don't wanna watch, um- Don't lie. Don't lie... Love is Blind and shit?" Ugh. No, no, no. Do love it. What's the one that- Love Love is Blind... uh, Perfect Match. I'm like- Oh...
[1:05:27] "Babe, can we watch some good-" I haven't sunk that low... "Can we, can we watch some good fucking TV?" \[laughs\] I haven't gone that low, bro. But to your point- Yeah...
[1:05:33] if I was to watch that and it was an AI-generated movie, I'd be like, "Something's off." Like, I wanna know that this is real. Yeah.
[1:05:43] Yeah, I mean, like, that's, you know, w- w- l- and now we're on this topic, but, like, Toy Story and all that, the reason why it was so impressive is that people created this using technology, but it was- Sure...
[1:05:53] like, the painstaking hours that went into it. I, I think there's still not an understanding of, like, the prompting world to get it there, of, like, actually how hard that really is. No, it's a bitch. It's hard.
[1:06:03] But you go into- It's super hard... you go into watching Toy Story knowing that it is animated- Animated, yeah... and it's not trying to front as being real. Yeah. Well, 'cause it was like...
[1:06:13] It just el- elevated an already existing art form- Yes... which was, you know, the 2D world, and then now they're doing the 3D thing, and it's like, okay, I get that. It's still people creating this. Yeah.
[1:06:23] How impressive. Now it's kind of like getting rid of-... a lot to get there. But still, I mean, prompting is not- No, it is hard...
[1:06:30] I think that's the issue that a lot of people see with all the advertisems- a- advertment- advertisements out there about AI and prompting. It's like, "Oh, I just went in there and I made this prompt." Yes.
[1:06:39] "And there it is, and here, look at this my final thing." No, it's, it's hard. "And it's so, so great." Mm-hmm. It's hard. It's not that easy to create something that actually makes you think, "That looks real." Yeah.
[1:06:49] Like, holy shit. Mm. I wanna transition a little bit and talk about licensing, because you're working with these big brands, and
[1:06:58] I wanna know how you go about licensing, charging for licensing, how that works in your world, where you're working with these bigger brands where, uh, it's living a lot of different places. Yeah.
[1:07:08] And maybe it's something just for social, or maybe it's something for website, or maybe something for broadcast. How does licensing work in what you do, and how does that... how do you charge for that? Yeah.
[1:07:19] Is there a standard fee, or is it, does it vary so much per project? It varies so much, uh, for pro- per project. I'm still not the best at licensing. I'll, I'll admit.
[1:07:30] That, that world is really tough be- 'cause it's so objective- Yeah... of, like, what should I get paid? Again,
[1:07:37] depending on the brand, the brand might be hu- huge brand, but they're not gonna pay you a bunch of money, 'cause sometimes they're like, "You should be excited just to be working with us"- \[laughs\]...
[1:07:45] type of thing, right? Like, that's the vibe you get. Yeah. And they might give you something, but it's not like... You're not retiring. It's not like it used to be. Uh, it's...
[1:07:53] Back in- Where the photographers would make a majority of their money off licensing. The photographers would make, like... Yeah, exactly.
[1:07:57] They would get, like, a $20,000 licensing deal for the year, and then they'd be offered a buyout for, like, 60 grand.
[1:08:03] Like, that's not unheard of on a full-scale commercial, uh, project, but that really doesn't exist unless you're a top tier. Mm. Top, top tier.
[1:08:12] Um, I mean, I think the best thing that I've done is I let them, especially on early on, I let the brands lead the conversations a couple time, couple times, and I, you know, I, I like to ask them, I'm like, "Oh yeah, great, you know, I, I have a licensing fee or licensing structure."
[1:08:26] I don't. Uh, and this was \[laughs\] early on. And I'm like, "But if you have an idea of what you're trying to keep within, 'cause I know you're working with a budget," you, you know, you play the nice guy.
[1:08:35] I like to play the nice guy with clients and everything. See what they come back with, and then you can build it off of there. Like, "Oh, that's what I was thinking, but that might be a little low." \[laughs\] "So let's...
[1:08:44] well, can we do this?" You know? \[laughs\] Like, that's a... That's funny you said that. I was thinking \[laughs\] exactly- It's typically a little below my rate. Yeah. \[laughs\] Exactly. And so- We can work with that...
[1:08:51] but then from there you're like, "Okay, here's my... I, I did this work with X brand," and then- \[laughs\]... you know, another brand comes to work with you, and you, you have something at least base it off of. Mm-hmm.
[1:09:01] And now you're like, "This is my standard \[laughs\] right here." Mm-hmm. "I've only done licensing once, but this is my standard." Sure. "And here, let me use that on the next one that I go on."
[1:09:09] Um, licensing's difficult, but definitely get a renewal, set up a six-month if you can, year at the most. Um, total buyouts are tough if you're gonna do a total buyout, but sometimes that's what the brand needs.
[1:09:22] They just want e- everything, and they just wanna own it. And again, it comes down to you. Do you want the job or not? Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's how it goes, man. That's interesting. I remember, um- Get an agent.
[1:09:32] You really care, get an agent and they'll take care of it all for you... when I was shooting- Do you have an agent now? No. Oh, okay, okay. No. I've, I've thought, I've- \[laughs\] Absolutely not. Yeah.
[1:09:40] Uh, I've thought about it and, you know, it's something for photography I've really, I want to explore. Hmm. Um, but it, you know, it's, it's a weird game.
[1:09:52] I've had a manager in the past for, like, social and everything, and it just doesn't work out. I think the, the best thing I have going for me is personal connections, going back to that.
[1:10:02] Personal connections, working with a brand. True story.
[1:10:05] I worked with White Claw for many years, uh, many years, three years, uh, for three years, and I was, like, doing, like, one-off social projects with them, and then started doing a little bit more here. Like, I...
[1:10:16] Remember I did the White Claw one with you, right? Oh, yeah. We jumped in the pool, we splashed and everything. Yeah, dude, I, I was, I was- I don't think you got any licensing fee for that one...
[1:10:22] I was of big value on that shoot. Yeah, \[laughs\] you and the cannonball. I was the one doing the cannonball in the pool. \[laughs\] That's right. That was a sick image. Yeah. The way that came out was awesome.
[1:10:31] Um, but I was working with them, and then I got a manager, and I was exclusive with them, and they were, they asked, like, "Well, anything you do, we get a piece of." And I was like, "Okay, this is how it works."
[1:10:41] I gave them White Claw, uh, 'cause we were going to South by Southwest, gave them that contact. After South By, I never heard from White Claw again. Oh, wow.
[1:10:50] And it was just like that got rid of that relationship, and at that moment I just went, "Maybe this, this just isn't for me." Yeah. Because I lost that personal connection.
[1:10:59] Even though South By went great, I, you know, I met the brand out there, I met the agency, but then- Oh, you were working with White Claw at South By? Yeah. Yeah. Ah. And I, like, um, I went out to dinner with them.
[1:11:10] Like, it was great, but then it, they hit that roadblock of the manager agent person that they had to go through, and they went, "Oh, we can just work with somebody else-" Mm... "that's easier to work with."
[1:11:21] So it's like, I think you have to be at a certain level to really start thinking is a manager...
[1:11:26] Are you trying to get a manager to get more jobs, or are you trying to get a manager to level you up, or an agent to level you up?
[1:11:32] And now in photography I'm tr- I would only explore an agent to level me up, not to get me more jobs. Hmm. What percentage of your jobs are you getting referral-based, network-based versus doing outbound?
[1:11:44] Are you doing any outbound? 100%. Like, no, no- Wow... outbound at all. I'm very, very fortunate. You know, s- social media h- was a great, uh, marketing tool for myself. Um,
[1:11:56] I haven't done outbound in maybe three f- three years. Wow. Um, everything i- again, like I'm so sorry, relationships. Yeah. Uh, \[laughs\] relationships, relationships, relationships.
[1:12:08] We should tat it right here, dude, so you don't forget it. Here's... Okay. I know. Here's what I wanna- But, yeah...
[1:12:13] oh, here's what I wanna say about relationships, because I think you hear, "Oh, you gotta go out and network, and you wanna build these relationships."
[1:12:21] I think before you can think about that, you have to be good at what you do. You gotta back it up. Like- Because with networking, right?No one wants- No one wants to network with the... Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah...
[1:12:31] no one wants to network with someone who isn't interesting- Yeah... or isn't good at what they do, and no one wants to go grab coffee with someone who's just like, "Can I pick your brain and- Yeah... buy you coffee?"
[1:12:41] Like, no, I'm a little busy for that. And, and, and my networking, I'm terrible at networking. Sure. I don't like networking. I don't like going to grab coffee. I'm, I, I grab coffee by myself.
[1:12:51] Um, like I'm just like I'm not that guy- Yeah... to reach out to somebody, or when they reach out to me, I'm awkward in those types of scenarios. Give me three, three, four people in a group scenario, fucking crush.
[1:13:03] \[laughs\] I thought you were gonna say... \[laughs\] What? What, what? \[laughs\] Give me three, four shots and I'm just- \[laughs\] I'm, I'm a, I'm a good time after. I'm a good time after four shots. Yeah.
[1:13:12] I am, I am really good, n- not awkward at all. But yeah, three, four people strong- \[laughs\]... like there. Uh-huh. But one-on-one networking- Sure... um, no, no thank you. It, it's too much, too much pressure. Yeah.
[1:13:22] Um, so when I talk about networking and relationship building, I'm really talking about how, what your demeanor is on set- Mm... and how you handle yourself in those emails, and how can you make it personable. Hm.
[1:13:34] Um, end of the day, ton of other people out there that could give a job to, but who do they wanna work with? Who's a friend? Like who- Yeah...
[1:13:41] who c- And don't go into it like that because people can smell thirsty, and if you are like, "Hey, you know, what do you need? I'm here," like this, it's too much. But
[1:13:50] own your shit, you know what you're talking about, have confidence in your work, but don't make it strict business.
[1:13:56] And I think if you can f- strike that balance, you're gonna make a lot more long-term relationships than that. And that kinda goes back to what we were saying earlier of there's so many good people out here. Yeah.
[1:14:05] And so just by being a good person, being personable, it can feel maybe a little bit awkward 'cause I think a lot of people, they like to be behind the camera 'cause they're maybe not a- like they're a little introverted.
[1:14:17] Mm. Um, but yeah, I think the, the building relationships is, is so important, and it, it, it can be a little bit difficult to hear because it's a little bit not like...
[1:14:32] You can't tell someone what to say in a conversation. No, but you guys- It-... you guys are right. I got a DM, this was like last week, random. I hadn't heard from this person in forever.
[1:14:40] Like, we just had ran- I don't, whatever. They DM me. Nice. "Would you like to support me on a monetary thing for..." Didn't send me any work. I was like, "For what? What do you want me to just fucking send you money?"
[1:14:51] \[laughs\] What is this, what does this DM mean? Crazy. Like, I- Do, do you guys ever get like the coffee invites? All the time. I'm sure you do, right? Yeah, all the time. Yeah. All the time. Do you do them? No.
[1:14:59] \[laughs\] Love this drink. I'm, I'm getting, I'm getting... This is interesting. Unless there's a mutual thing there. Yes. Unless I'm like, oh, this person is insanely talented- Yeah...
[1:15:08] we could work together on some shit. Yeah, yeah. I think that like- I've had that happen a couple times... yeah, but that makes sense though 'cause it's like you're doing this at a really high level.
[1:15:15] There's synergy here. Yeah. It's not just like, this is a waste of an hour of my time, and this is only gonna help you. Yeah. You know? Exactly. It's the same thing for me.
[1:15:24] I wouldn't hit someone up if I'm like, "I can't really help this person." Yeah, I think- They're doing crazy shit. There's no, there's nothing here that I could like give to them, or like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
[1:15:32] No, I get it. I, I think, was it Gary Vee? Um- Or there's no friend, they're like, you don't have a bun- we don't have the same group of friends. Yeah.
[1:15:39] It's like, it'd be like random of me to do the- But it, it's a value that you're adding back and forth to each other. Yes, yes. Yes. It has to have, be an exchange. 100%. I'll give you a perfect example.
[1:15:46] Give me an example. On, on Wednesday, I'm getting breakfast with a guy named Dane, and he does, um, he just does photography for interiors. That's cool. And, and my agency- Oh, a little shake and bake...
[1:15:57] is focused on video. Hm. And so I'm like- Oh, yeah... it makes sense for us to connect. Um, we also have a mutual friend. They could link and build. And, and my- They can link and build. Yeah. Yeah, yeah...
[1:16:07] our mutual friend, Brian, I was talking to him. He goes, "He's not interested in building out the agency. He just wants to be kind of a freelance photographer." And I'm like, great.
[1:16:15] I could see myself down the road connecting with a hotel and them wanting photo and video, and I know I can do both, but it's like I'm not gonna be shooting both. So it's like having someone like him- Mm-hmm...
[1:16:28] in my network, and vice versa, I'm sure he'll- Smart... he gets hit up by a hotel, and they might want video as well. So we're at similar levels. We both do good work. Yeah. There's a mutual beneficial...
[1:16:40] There's something mutually beneficial- There's a-... that can come out of this. Exactly. Yeah. It's not just like, "Hey, dude, let me pick your brain." See, it's d- Yeah...
[1:16:46] it's different though, but I'll say DM me on IG with any questions. I invite questions. Yeah. I'm down to help. Yeah. I'm just not gonna drive an hour. It's tough. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
[1:16:56] But like I'll answer questions all fucking day. Like you ask me a question- Yeah. Like I, I live-... I will respond... far away. Yeah, you live- I get here-... you live in, you live in Nam, dude. Yeah. He lives deep.
[1:17:03] Thank God it's Memorial Day- Yeah... right now. I know. Oh, traffic was- Yeah, traffic was 30 minutes... yeah, it was easy to get over here, bro. I was like, what? It usually takes an hour to get over here.
[1:17:10] I was like, this is piece of cake. But yeah, and it's a big time commitment to go and get coffee.
[1:17:15] The one time, the, the times that I make an exception is if it's for like school and they wanna do like an interview and a report. Oh, yeah, and that's cool. I'll do like a Zoom call or something- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:17:24] For sure... here or there, but- Help the younger generation. Dude, help the younger gen. I think it's also like- Help the young rocks... I feel like we all feel like the, uh, imposter syndrome too.
[1:17:32] When people ask just to like pick my brain- Sure... I'm like, "About what?" You know? Like I'm just, I'm in the thick of it. I'm still figuring it out. I'm fi- Mm. Mm, mm...
[1:17:40] I'm, I'm fighting every day to figure out what my next job is gonna be- Mm, mm... how I'm gonna better myself. Like I'm still tr- I don't feel like I've made it. I'm just trying to. So when you say pick my brain- Yeah...
[1:17:49] I'm just like, oh, what do, hopefully I can give you something. Mm. You know? Mm, mm-hmm. Was there a shoot that was a big level up for you? Where you were like doing- Yeah...
[1:18:02] the social stuff, still working mainly in your garage, and then you got an opportunity. Ooh, that's a good one. Um, one comes to mind, but I'm trying to think if there was one earlier than that.
[1:18:14] You don't have to say the name of the brand, but more like what was the lesson? Yeah. And like what- That I, that I knew more than I realized. Oh, okay. I think that was, that was the i- it, it goes to that secret sauce.
[1:18:26] When you're worried about crossing over into the professional commercial world and, for me, it's like what do these guys, what do these girls know that I don't- Uh-huh...
[1:18:37] that got them here?And a lot of the times it's not anything. It's just hard work and experience. Um, so I think that was it.
[1:18:45] But it was probably the big one for me two-ish, probably two and a half years ago is when I felt it. When I walked on the set, I was a director, and I walked on the set and it was a, a multi-set location.
[1:18:59] I didn't realize how big it was. I just... I kinda went into the same scrappy mentality. Um- And this was, you were just a director? I was just directing. Mm.
[1:19:08] And that was also a good feeling of like, I don't get pulled into 15 different directions. Um, I'm just solely here for director. My call time was later. \[laughs\] My, you know, like- You're just like- On the pre-light...
[1:19:17] "Where's the talent, man?" Yeah, like the pre... I, I remember that. "Who's getting me coffee?" They were... \[laughs\] Yeah. "Where is the truck?"
[1:19:23] The pre-light, like, on the pre-light they were like, "Oh, crew call time is 8:00 AM." And I was like, "Okay, be there at 8:00." And they're like, "Oh, no, you don't need to come until, like, 12:00."
[1:19:30] And I was like, "Why? W- why am I coming at 12:00 when everybody else is coming at 8:00?" Don't you need to be there? Yeah, exactly. \[laughs\] Don't I have to put stands up and lights up or something?
[1:19:39] \[laughs\] And that was, like, a big realization to me of like, oh, this is, this is a... This is different. And the reason for it isn't to just, like... isn't an ego boost.
[1:19:48] It's you need to focus on what you're getting hired for, and that was a big moment for me of like, this is great. I can focus on my job and not have to fulfill 10 different hats.
[1:20:00] How did you go from being the person who is shooting the thing using the camera to then I'm just directing? That- Like, was that, again, was that a relationship? It, it wasn't... It's not an overnight thing. Yeah.
[1:20:13] For sure. Like, one- One brand gave you a shot. Yeah You proved it. Keep crushing. Boom, boom, boom, boom. The, it, but it also is based on the work that you're doing. Yes, totally. It's not,
[1:20:22] uh, you- Yeah, no one's gonna just hand you that- What I, I just-... hand you that fucking job... I, I heard, I heard this actually in Vancouver from another cam op that I was working with.
[1:20:30] Um, and I'm gonna butcher what he said, but it was along the lines of you, you can't become a DP within your own city.
[1:20:38] And what that meant was is when you're starting out in this world as a PA, as you're s- and that's usually the route, right? You start out a PA and then you move into, like...
[1:20:48] uh, maybe you're a gaffer or a grip, and then you want to second AC, first AC, and then maybe you get your shot to be a DP. Because the people that you're surrounding yourself with a- at that early stage see you as that.
[1:20:59] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's really hard to move up. Mm-hmm.
[1:21:02] So unless you build a really strong relationship with those people and they see and you're all leveling up together and they bring you along for the ride, you're gonna have to explore different opportunities.
[1:21:11] And then that body of work you're building, they will see it, and then they'll start attributing different things.
[1:21:16] And then they see you can do, handle a camera or see that, and then that's how you're gonna get pulled into these bigger productions.
[1:21:22] Um, so similar to me, it's not like someone just one day was just like, "Oh, you're a director now."
[1:21:28] Now, I had directed things, but usually it was ran under my studio that I was, I was self-titled director because it was my production. Um, then finally with all of that body of work, they saw Evan Tanaka, director.
[1:21:45] Director. And this is the crew. This is the work. Great. He's a director. Let's hire him as the dir- the director. Let's hire him as the photographer based on the body of work. Um, so it is not an overnight thing.
[1:21:56] It's also put your... Don't surround yourself, especially when you're first starting out.
[1:22:01] When you're more established it's a bit different, but when you're first starting out, take on all the opportunities you can and then also start building yourself into whatever role you want to.
[1:22:12] If you're only taking PA jobs, you are going to stay a PA. Mm-hmm. If you're only taking second AC jobs, you will stay a second AC.
[1:22:19] S- start doing the other jobs and start challenging yourself to get to that next level with those other people, and they'll start seeing you in the light you want to be seen in.
[1:22:27] God, I think that's such a, that's such a great point because when we had Brady Besette on, he said the same thing. He was like, "Oh, I, I was gaffing everyone's shit, so then everyone's hitting me up to gaff." Yep.
[1:22:36] And he's like, "I wanna be a DP. Well, I had to, like, I had to go find these clients myself- Yep... or, like, go outside to get DP roles, and now I'm a DP. Now you're a DP. I'm not a...
[1:22:45] Everyone else is calling me for gaffing jobs." He keeps taking the, keeps posting about the gaffing jobs. He was, yeah, he was also like, "I was networking with all DPs." \[laughs\] Yeah. He's, "All my boys are DPs."
[1:22:54] He's like- Yeah... "DP isn't gonna hire me." \[laughs\] Yeah, exactly. I mean, solid point. \[laughs\] If you're surrounding yourself with a position you wanna be in, sounds like a smart thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[1:23:04] But it's like they're not gonna hire you- No, no... 'cause they are themselves what you wanna be. Yeah. You need to be buddies with directors and producers. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
[1:23:11] Man, this has been, this has been such an epic conversation. I can't wait to see in four years where the, the next pod with Evan Tanaka goes and Knocka Studios.
[1:23:19] Ladies and gentlemen, this has been episode 208 of the 505 Podcast. Wow. If it's your first time here, please hit the subscribe button, drop us a comment, leave us a like, and we'll see you guys all next week. Peace.

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