# 184. How to Build a Premium Brand (without luck) ft. Ross Mackay

An episode of [THE 505 PODCAST](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1591279585), 4 Dec 2025, 1 h 57 min.

Audio: https://podcasts.beehiiv.com/3f71d8b4-2a8c-40eb-8500-c62b76bd9acc/019d43e4-0103-7741-b37f-b81b41dca056/019d43e4-3692-7574-a00c-badc0688605d/019d43e4-3756-7842-8c7d-f371de226330.mp3

The 10 Minute Personal Brand Kickstart (FREE): https://the505podcast.courses/personalbrandkickstart What’s up Rock Nation! Today we’re joined by Ross McKay, second-time founder, brand architect, and the mind behind Cadence, the $2 sports drink built like a luxury brand. Ross previously built Daring Foods into a nine-figure company, and now he’s moving faster, smarter, and with way more edge. In this episode, he shares how to build a brand that people brag about, why speed beats capital, and what it really takes to scale from startup to shelves in Target, Walmart, and GNC. We get into why most founders focus on the wrong metrics, how to stand out in crowded categories, and why Ross thinks distribution doesn’t matter, velocity does. You’ll also hear how he hires, how he sets boundaries, and why the secret to Cadence’s success is obsession-level execution. Check out Ross here: https://www.youtube.com/ @RossMackay1 https://www.instagram.com/rossmackay/ https://www.instagram.com/cadence/ SUSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER: https://the505podcast.ac-page.com/rock-report Kostas' Lightroom Presets https://www.kostasgarcia.com/store-1/p/kglightroompresetsgreece COP THE BFIGGY "ESSENTIALS" SFX PACK HERE: https://courses.the505podcast.com/BFIGGYSFXPACK Timestamps: 0:00 – Intro 1:14 – What Ross Is Doing Differently This Time 2:50 – The Power of Saying No 3:54 – Raising $150M and Losing Control 4:37 – How He Kept Control at Cadence 6:40 – Why He Only Raises From People He Likes 7:28 – Branding That Breaks Through the Noise 11:00 – Brand or Product: What Comes First? 12:20 – 600 Runners Showed Up for Day One 14:04 – Personal Brand Kickstart 14:29 – How Ross & George Launched With $240K 16:42 – Beverage vs Powder: Why They Went Hard Mode 18:57 – The Exact Moment They Knew It Was Working 21:11 – The Secret to Getting Repeat Customers 22:53 – How Cadence Became a Fridge Trophy 26:13 – Making Money at $2.50 a Can 27:54 – Competing With Gatorade (Not Hipster Brands) 28:44 – Why Store Count Is a Vanity Metric 30:28 – Ross’s Speed Strategy for Beating Big Brands 31:37 – Can You Stay Fast While Scaling? 34:03 – His First Hires & Who He Looks For 35:32 – Where His Relentless Drive Comes From 37:43 – Building a Billion-Dollar Brand With Boundaries 41:06 – Never Too High, Never Too Low 41:56 – How Cadence Is Built to Scale Fast 44:30 – The Real Game Behind Shelf Placement 46:04 – What Happens When You Flop in Retail 47:52 – Using Sales Data to Break Into Big Stores 50:05 – His Pitch to Take Over Retail 51:49 – Why Cadence Isn’t Just a Trendy Brand 52:30 – Going Head-to-Head With Beverage Giants 54:01 – How He Gets Retailers to Say Yes 55:16 – Outselling 50 Brands at GNC 56:22 – Why Every Retailer Gets a Unique Offer 58:55 – The $2 Luxury Philosophy 1:01:55 – What Your Fridge Says About You 1:03:29 – How Ross Obsesses Over the Consumer 1:07:20 – Why Cadence Doesn’t White Label Anything 1:08:43 – This Can Is Their Best Marketing Tool 1:13:28 – The Truth About Distribution Obsession 1:15:51 – The Only KPI That Matters in Retail 1:17:57 – You’ll Never Beat Big Brands on Capital 1:21:41 – How He Makes Million-Dollar Decisions Fast 1:23:52 – Speed vs Scale: Keeping the Culture Intact 1:26:29 – How He Handles Pressure in High Stakes 1:28:24 – Why Ross Is Gunning for a Billion in Revenue 1:30:08 – Leading When Everything’s on Fire 1:32:03 – Real Talk for Founders Building from Scratch 1:33:06 – Post Pod Debrief If you liked this episode please send it to a friend and take a screenshot for your story! And as always, we'd love to hear from you guys on what you'd like to hear us talk about or potential guests we should have on. DM US ON IG: (Our DM's are always open!) Bfiggy: https://www.instagram.com/bfiggy/ Kostas: https://www.instagram.com/kostasg95/ TikTok: Bfiggy: https://www.tiktok.com/bfiggy/ Kostas: https://www.tiktok.com/kostasgarcia/

## Transcript

[0:00] When you open the fridge and there's a Cadence, you're like, "That's what we've created." It's two dollar luxury. There's nothing in the world that's two dollar luxury.
[0:07] That's Ross MacKay, second time founder and the mind behind Cadence, a two dollar sports drink built like a luxury brand.
[0:14] After a successful exit from his first company, Daring Foods, he's now moving faster and smarter to redefine what modern hydration looks like. Moat is the brand, it's the packaging, it's the liquid, of course.
[0:24] This little white can is your marketing. The CMO of Coca-Cola said the best part of marketing is that can.
[0:29] As a seasoned entrepreneur, Ross knows that to compete against the biggest brands in the world, he has to lean on his greatest advantage.
[0:34] Speed is fundamentally the most important trait you have as an early stage founder. Packaging, A or B? A, go. Done.
[0:40] I will have, in the space of five minutes, made decisions that we will see on shelf in three to six months. Ross isn't just fast, he's precise. He understands that brand is a superpower.
[0:48] And every decision from the liquid to the can is a marketing opportunity. No funders should care about distribution.
[0:53] I don't care how many stores you're in, I care about how much you turn in store per day, per week, per minute. That is the heartbeat of any consumer business.
[1:00] In this episode, Ross shares what it really takes to build a breakout brand, from moving with relentless speed to crafting a brand so strong it's impossible to ignore.
[1:07] Whether you're a founder, marketer, or just brand obsessed, this one's a masterclass in how to build a brand that leaves a legacy. Let's get into it. This is now your second nine-figure business that we're building.
[1:17] We wanna reach o- over a billion dollars with Cadence. When someone's building their second brand like this, it's, it's not luck. It's, it's something that you've actually already done before.
[1:27] Walking into Cadence, what are you going to change about the first company? Like, what are you taking into the second company? Just like my first company, uh, this one definitely still started with a purpose.
[1:38] Like, I think some great businesses are born out of, like, what keeps you up at night, scratching an itch. Like, it's not there in the market, let me fix it. So I would say there's similarity there for Cadence for me.
[1:48] You know, pretty avid endurance consumer, didn't see the opportunity with electrolytes or, you know, performance supplements. Let me go and fix it myself.
[1:56] Some of the things that, you know, I'm doing differently or better this time is, like, huge emphasis on prioritization and saying no.
[2:04] You know, in the beginning of my first business, like, every opportunity seems like the right decision and you're kind of taking quick opportunities here, there, left.
[2:11] Like, for me now, I'm, like, taking a step back on everything and being like, "If this doesn't equate to X or Y," and I have kind of my levels of importance, whether it's brand, equity value, revenue, or other.
[2:22] I'm very, really strict with time allocation. Whereas, again, my first business, like, you'd catch me on a flight for a meeting, you'd catch me saying yes to every retail opportunity.
[2:32] Whereas now, I'm just a bit more methodical, a bit slower to, you know, say yes.
[2:37] I think, um, that's probably fundamentally one of the most important things that's allowed us to grow so quickly because we're just so focused on certain KPIs.
[2:47] Um, but there's a million other things, but that's probably the number one thing. Saying no is important. Do you have an example of something that you said yes for your first company that you're like, "Absolutely not.
[2:56] Will not do this. Don't even ask"? Oh, so many. I think- \[laughs\] Two... One would probably be, like, capital raising. Um- Okay... I think there's a really big difference between need and want. Need is need.
[3:09] Like, I need it to survive, and you take opportunities because fundamentally need is need. And then want is want.
[3:15] I'm moving into this business, thankfully, after a successful exit, therefore, I do everything that I want to do. Um, so aren't forced to take, you know, capital from partners that I am in aligned with,
[3:28] um, in terms of mission and patience, et cetera. And then also in retail. So I think when you scale into retail, whereas you put this product versus my last business, we went, we're going a bit slower into retail.
[3:39] We're taking our time, we're making sure the business can scale in retail, making sure the business is ready for scale, which is like, can you afford it? Can you make money? Et cetera.
[3:46] Whereas last time it was like, "Hey, X calls. Like, take it all. Let's go. Like, we'll figure it out later." So probably two things we're thinking about differently this time.
[3:54] I feel like I'd probably make a lot of those same mistakes 'cause when you're first starting out your first business, everything probably sounds so fucking exciting. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I also came from the UK.
[4:02] I'm not from here. So, like, first time in America was 2019 December. This thing called COVID happened. Um, frozen food kind of went through the roof.
[4:10] Everyone was queuing up at Whole Foods for, like, three days to buy whatever they could buy. So, like, naturally, the business progressed very, very quickly.
[4:17] Um, so we are kind of operating this time in a bit more of a flat market where it's a fair competition.
[4:24] Last time was just like, I picked the right category at the right time in a place where frozen food was up 1000% year over year. So y- we didn't have the right fundamentals to build a business.
[4:36] It was, like, very glorified.
[4:37] When you go about raising money, there's obviously the pro of not raising money and being in full control, and then there's this other side where it's like, if I wanna reach this crazy goal, I wanna have a billion dollar brand, I wanna sit with the Goliaths of this category.
[4:50] It's something that probably most people have to do to get capital. When you think about both of those sides of it, why did you end up raising money?
[4:57] Like, instead of just saying like, "Oh, you know, I c- I'm gonna bootstrap this and I'll grow it much slower," or I'm just, like, curious about that. It's a, \[chuckles\] it's a great question.
[5:05] Probably the most common question I get is, like, how to raise money and, um, you said one thing at the beginning, you know, keeping control of a business by not raising capital.
[5:14] You can still raise capital and keep control of your company. Um, I'm living proof of that. We've raised capital for Cadence, but yeah, I still...
[5:21] I'm the sole bo-bo, you know, member of the board, still control majority of the business. So I think there is, uh, an ability to do so.
[5:29] However, it comes being a second time founder now, having leverage and being, being like, basically, you know, like, it's my terms or, or nothing. First time around it was, you know, need.
[5:40] We needed to raise capital to scale the business. We had X opportunity, we couldn't afford to do it without capital. So there was a little bit of leverage.
[5:47] Find the right partner to, to fund us through a life cycle, and then we continue to raise capital. My last business, we raised a lot of money, over about $150 million in the space of 11 months.
[5:56] With that does come losing control of your business because as a founder, you're not focused on the certain things-That you should be focused on. You're only focused on the capital.
[6:03] But with capital does come hooks and claws and terms that isolate you from the end goal, which is control. Um, and this time we've decided to do a small amount of financing just through strategic partners.
[6:17] I mean, between me and my co-founder, we funded the business, and then we found people that we really fuck with along the journey, and being like, "Hey, we know we're gonna turn this into the next X.
[6:26] We want you to be part of it." And less about like, "Hey, we really need money, um, can you please help us out?"
[6:31] It's been like, "Hey, my sister," like, "my dad," like, "your friends, like, we'll, we'll let you into this because we know we're gonna hundred X your capital." Um, so slightly different this time.
[6:41] So round two, it's so much easier because you've already, you already have the proof, but round one's very difficult to even keep any terms 'cause they're like, it's such a bet on you, correct? Is that what I'm hearing?
[6:50] Yeah. There's little data of, you know- Mm-hmm... you go out and raise money as a first-time funder. You've got, you've done a million in your last eight months, so you're like couple hu- you know what I mean?
[6:58] You're like a hundred, hundred grand a month, um, whatever it is. So there's very little data to show this is gonna be a success. And every early stage VC or f-funder will bet on the person and potentially the team.
[7:09] So they're gonna make a bet on like the category, the person. Do they believe you are gonna go and take my money, execute on it, and give your life towards the mission?
[7:17] And I think as a founder, you have to be extremely se- like you need to be able to sell the business extremely well.
[7:21] Like that is fundamentally communication, passion, ability to take calls and con-convince people to join you on the mission is so important. I'm pretty bummed that we didn't get the call \[laughing\] before this.
[7:32] And after, after trying it, I'm like- Yeah... I'm bought in, dude. I... Dude, I would've invested. \[laughing\] Hey, you bring up an interesting thing that you're so bought in and you...
[7:42] when you are raising money, you really have to live and breathe the brand and convince people to give you their money.
[7:49] \[lips smack\] You're super in the weeds of training and running and the culture of what Cadence stands for. And so when you were thinking about the product,
[8:01] how did you think about the positioning of how to position Cadence to stand out from the market and also when it comes to the branding side?
[8:09] Because the branding's impeccable, so I would love to know about positioning from the terms of how to stand out from the market, from other beverages that may be similar to yours, and then also like how to stand out from the branding perspective.
[8:20] Yeah. Our mission is to fuel the goal-oriented consumer, and to us, that means thinking about the consumer pre, during, or post-exercise. For us, our primary exercise is running or cycling, endurance sport.
[8:32] So we took a step back there, and ultimately we're a sports drink. We're a sports performance supp-supplement company.
[8:37] Other brands in this space offering you similar minerals are for more for lifestyle, for mom and pop, for hangovers.
[8:43] We are in terms of functionality, but we position the brand to be for that goal-oriented consumer, the individual doing their first Hyrox, their first half marathon, their first 10K, their first marathon, their first ultra-marathon, running across a country, whatever it may be, and we go in after them, and we find brands that they aspire to wear or to be part of or to go to run clubs.
[9:01] And we identified that there was a huge gap. What we felt the biggest gap was for, uh, Gatorade 2.0. It's a sports drink.
[9:08] It's a sports drink where we are completely focused on the sporting occasion, so post-exercise, pre-exercise, whereas most drinks now are lifestyle. It's a lifestyle drink.
[9:18] You drink it with your sweet green, or you drink it with your dinner, or we directly built the brand, the positioning to be, to be built and, and consumed after exercise, which no one else was really thinking about.
[9:30] But yet, with the adoption of running and run clubs and sport and Hyrox, there was this influx of consumers who were moving their body more versus moving their body less.
[9:39] But they were then going to coffee shops or restaurants and buying a Diet Coke or an Olipop or a Poppi, and we wanted to win them over at that moment in time.
[9:46] So we built a brand that was a sports drink, modern sports drink. We'd seen soda disrupted. We'd seen energy disrupted. We'd never seen hydration in the sporting category disrupted.
[9:56] You look at our can, we have a fuel guide on the can. When, objective, and key electrolytes. We're literally a fuel guide. There's, there's, there's
[10:05] a, a, a menu of when to consume the product, and no one's ever done that before, for example. So that's how we think about the category. That's how we think of the positioning.
[10:14] Branding was sketched on a notepad by myself. I love branding. I love creative. Um, don't get to spend as much time in it day to day because we have a team executing on it now.
[10:23] But, um, I think the only real moat you have as a CPG ba- business, and you can claim IP, and we have IP, and we formulate everything ourself, is the brand. It's the community and it's the brand.
[10:33] Community is a buzzword and everyone's talking about it now. But, um, moat is the brand. It's the packaging. It's the liquid, of course. A lot of brands are white labeled. We don't do any white labeling.
[10:43] We don't just pick a product off the shelf and put it in our branded packaging. But for the most part, that is a good solution when you're earlier in business. But this little white can is your marketing.
[10:52] The CMO of Coca-Cola said the best form of marketing is the red can, and we think about that the same. So when we see it, we see tagged pictures. Everyone's holding it down. It's like a trophy.
[11:00] When in the process does branding come into play? Are you first like, "I have this idea for the beverage. Let's get the actual product down, then we can figure out branding"?
[11:09] Or is it, "Branding's pretty fucking awesome and like fun to work on," so are you working on those simultane-simultaneously? Yeah, like did the deck come first and then the formulation or?
[11:19] It's fun, it's funner to work on like the logo and the tagline. Yeah.
[11:22] But ultimately, you know, um, it's a great question, and in the past I was more like, "Let's build the brand out and then let's find the formulation," and so on.
[11:31] Um, my wife has a business and I always tell her, "Get your liquid right or get your product right first," because the brand's gonna iterate so much when your contract manufacturer tells you you cannot do X.
[11:41] So for our argument's sake, we wanna do a zero calorie, zero sugar hydration drink that's super sporty, and then you go to your manufacturer, like, "We can't do that. It needs to have sugar in it." I don't know.
[11:49] Give you an example, so therefore the brand's gonna change. So they have to work to, they have to work together. You also have to show people things, you know, to get them excited. "This is what it's gonna look like."
[11:59] And also, we were just talking about this in the, in the car, like momentum.
[12:02] Brand, when you're building a brand, you're looking at logos, it gets you excited, gets you, gets that momentum going, gets you thinking about things, so simultaneously for sure.
[12:10] But I will just say is like your first iteration probably and where the brand ends up being are wildly different.
[12:16] So get your product right and the brand should evolve naturally.In the very beginning, did you notice that traction?
[12:23] I mean, I know you're partnered with George on it, and, like, he has a built-in group from Represent and whatnot, and, like, you know, you're doing YouTube now, which is amazing. I really like those vlogs.
[12:32] They're very, like, long-form, just getting to know you and, like, the, the voice behind it. What was that like in those early days? Building content? Yeah, no, just, like, with building momentum around the brand with...
[12:44] when you put it out to the world. Were you surprised at where it was at? Did it gain traction very quickly? Um, yeah, I mean, in the beginning, we launched the brand in, like, a run event in London.
[12:55] Me and George flew out. I think there was, like, 600 people came through, and, like, now there's run clubs every day, and there's hundreds of people and sometimes less or more. But 100%.
[13:05] I think the thing we were just so excited about is the reaction to the liquid. Um, and I think li- getting liquid to lips was su- you know, super important early on.
[13:14] But, um, yeah, the momentum and the adoption of the brand over the last... We've been going for about 400 days, has been wild.
[13:21] I mean, I, I already we're- I've surpassed where we are as a business, and we will completely blow out of the water at my last company in, in, in 16 to 18 months. Wow.
[13:30] Um, so I think our partnerships with the likes of Bandit, with the likes of On, with the... You know, last night we sponsored, I think, like, 1,200, um, people at a Nike event. And I think our... I, I know our, um,
[13:43] our pulse on the key partners in key cities around the States and abroad is really strong.
[13:49] So when we looked at, you know, how we could differentiate, that we just talked about being a sports drink, like, taking key partners and fueling them, which is part of our mission, it was really important.
[13:58] So yeah, we've done a great job at that. We have someone internally, Cam K, who's just crushing that, and, uh, it's definitely what differentiates us. \[whooshing sound\] Hope you're enjoying this episode.
[14:06] Real quick, wanna let you know about an awesome free product that we got linked in the description. It's our personal brand kickstart. What's in it? Okay, we got five prompts for you.
[14:13] It's gonna help you define your personal brand, get clarity, and start posting content that really resonates with your audience.
[14:19] It'll literally take you less than 10 minutes, and it's been super apparent with all the guests that we've had on our show, they have really strong personal brands, and it's allowed them to scale their businesses.
[14:27] So go check it out, top link, and let's keep it rolling. \[whooshing sound\] How much did you have to put in, and George, like, right off the bat, to just get the thing off the ground, get this in the hands of you guys?
[14:36] I'm just so curious. We started with, like, 120 grand each. Wow. Um- And, and does that, does that just get you, like, one round of- That got us, like, one round- Wow... and then we've continued to fund the business.
[14:46] Wow. Um, but we are... Yeah, like, uh, that's, that was the start, and then we've continued to evolve it.
[14:52] And instead of going out to outside capital and raising from, like, you know, VCs, because my ph- definitely not, and no ego, but our phones have definitely been going, you know?
[15:00] But I've just been like, "Yeah, it doesn't make sense for us right now." Like, I'll either do it myself unless you give me really good terms. And, like, Steven Bartlett's a good friend of mine.
[15:07] He invested in the company. Um, we've got a great fund out of Paris who have ties to the largest family in Europe. They've invested in the company. We haven't announced it because I think funding news is so glorified.
[15:18] The only thing that really matters is creating a great business. With great business comes great optionality, selling it, running it, doing what you want with it.
[15:25] So that's all we're really focused on, but we chose a beverage instead of a powder product when we launched the company, and it's a much higher MOQ, minimum order quantity.
[15:34] And therefore, if you wanna launch a sachet version, the barrier to entry is... Yo, we could string up a sachet brand in 15 minutes. You can launch it with, like, five grand, 10 grand. Super low barrier to entry.
[15:43] What is that? Like a powdered version. Like a powder. Gotcha. You know, like a... I don't wanna name any brands, put them on, but, like, salt in a stick. Yes.
[15:50] They are, like, super low minimums, very cheap to make and, you know, put a logo, TikTok shop it, and just go for it- Mm-hmm...
[15:59] hack your way through the world and never build anything great and sustainable and world-changing, but maybe make some money. Whereas we wanted to go the hard route, which is essentially beverage.
[16:09] Um, we have other optionality in our portfolio, sachets and gels and bars for the consumer, but our core business is the beverage, and we're a printed can. We make it at a large scale manufacturer.
[16:20] Minimums are at least... We made 5 million cans this month, you know? Wow. This month? So... Yeah. \[chuckles\] Five and a half million cans. When did you know you had something? 'Cause I,
[16:31] I think about, you show up to the first run club- Yeah... or \[sighs\] I could imagine you went through quite a few iterations- \[laughs\]... of, like, getting the fucking formula down, right? \[laughs\] Yeah.
[16:40] So then you and George are trying it, and you're like, "This is the one. Tastes great." Then you launch at this run club, you got 600 people, and I think that people could tell you, "Oh, this tastes great"- Mm...
[16:51] but then never go out and, like, buy it again because they're, like, in front of you, they wanna be nice, and they- Totally... they're gonna just be like, "Oh, this tastes good."
[16:58] You clearly have something that's, like, sticking and that works, and so was there a moment where you were like, "People genuinely really like this, and I know that we have something"? Yeah. Yeah.
[17:07] I mean, iteration-wise, a year ago we had a can... This is a 335 ML, uh, 355 ML. A year ago we had a can that was 250 ML made in the UK in a completely different liquid, different design, a year ago.
[17:22] So we've iterated on formulation, manufacturers, we now make it somewhere else, and the cans have evolved. And that sounds like three simple things, but that is- Yeah...
[17:31] like, reformulation and transferring that to a manufacturer and changing can supply or an artwork, right? Like, it's a big lift. That can take six months at a time while flying the plane.
[17:41] \[chuckles\] So of course, when we s- went to the run club, like, genuinely there was, like, fans of the brand and fans of George, and everyone's loving it and it's great, and, um, the one thing I'll say about George is, like, he's a big critique of his own stuff.
[17:54] Mm. And he'll never put out anything he doesn't believe in or, or, or love, and I think having that and not believing your own bullshit is really important. So we were pretty confident in the liquid when we tried it.
[18:04] It took several months to get there, and I kinda led charge on that.
[18:07] But when we had the cans and we ran a marathon in Malibu with our buddy, Iman, me and George, and we finished it after, and it was like, "This is really strong."
[18:14] Like, it was the first time we'd really tried the production samples. Then we flew to UK, launched it.
[18:19] I think the main point of inflection where we had something was-When we sold, I took it to a retail buyer who didn't like sports drinks, hated our biggest competitor, was just like, "Mm."
[18:31] And I made her try it, and she was like, "Hold on." \[laughs\] So... And I was like, "Okay, if I c- I can sell to the runners, no problem. We're gonna win them over. We got a couple million of them."
[18:42] But if I can then transcend z- transcend this into the consumer who's e- drinking soda and make them switch, I have a big category. On energy, I have a big category.
[18:51] So that was the moment, and that was only about, I'd say s- eight months ago. But we've only been going for, like, 15 months, but it was, it was really early on.
[18:58] What are some of these strategies to actually get someone to buy a drink multiple times? 'Cause we were talking with someone from a very, very large company that couldn't get people to buy their drink a second time. Mm.
[19:08] And we've seen it a lot in the beverage space, where people might try you once, but that doesn't mean anything. It's, like, the repeat buyers. So
[19:16] how do you go about getting someone to actually go out and purchase it a second time, and, like, give it another go? Great. I like this question. It's quite good thought, actually. \[laughs\] \[laughs\] Fuck yeah.
[19:26] Dude, I really- Take one. Dude, come on, brother. I really appreciate that. You know what I mean? Um- \[laughs\] I got a couple, couple, couple, couple answers there. Okay.
[19:31] I think one is when y- Do you take any supplements? I take creatine. Creatine. I take ginkgo. I take a lot of, like, uh, su- You're on a cy- are you on a cycle right now? N- \[laughs\] Bro, you don't look natty.
[19:41] I like, I like- Yeah, dude. You more look natty, bro. You're barely fitting in that chair, bro. \[laughs\] Fuck off. Why are you benching, brother? \[laughs\] I like 315. I like Pure Cap- The reps? I like Pure Encapsulation.
[19:49] Okay. Th- those guys, and I like the ones from, uh... I take, like, magnesium and stuff like that. I like to listen to, like, Huberman. Yeah, yeah. And I like the little stack, man. I try, I try that stuff.
[19:57] Do any of those supplements make you feel instantaneously better? No, none of them. You just take them f- because you believe in the data?
[20:02] I believe in the data, and I believe in what, what- \[laughs\] Dude, that's such- \[laughs\] No, no, no. Let me run with this. Okay, okay, okay, yeah, so fair. No.
[20:07] So you believe in the data, and you understand that there's clinical studies or other, and you believe in the thought leaders who are promoting the supplements. Correct.
[20:14] When you have a headache and you drink an electrolyte, instantaneously better. It's one of the only minerals in the world that make you feel better. Instantaneous. I take gr- greens powders. I take...
[20:23] My boy Grunze's brand. I do... I'll take, I take creatine, and I, I take other supplementation, depending on, like, blood work, et cetera. And you take it because you trust it, but you really don't know.
[20:33] It's just in there, and you're just like, "All right, fuck it." And you can do blood work every three months- Yeah... six months to identify key metrics,
[20:40] but if you don't feel good or you've just finished a run and you drink an electrolyte, it... Mine or other, you feel better. So that helps with repeat purchase because when you feel better, you're gonna try it.
[20:50] And if you run every day or you run three days a week or you're doing whatever training, therefore you're gonna start to implement it the way you implement, implement coffee in the morning 'cause you want a caffeine uptake.
[21:00] So for us, we see that as a big factor in if I can win over that consumer because they're feeling good after they work out and they have a can and they're like, "Wow," six, seven days a week, if not 10 times a week, they're gonna take my can.
[21:12] And the caff- or, I mean, the, the drink's a fun one because we were talking about just brands, and we went out to Texas. We interviewed Christian Guzman, who owns 3B Energy.
[21:20] And, like, my y- drink of choice in the very morning is yerba mate. I like the, like, the Orange Exuberance drink. I have it every day. Oh.
[21:26] And the people that also have it, we talk in Instagram DM, and it's funny 'cause it's like, it's ritualistic. It's your coffee. It's whatever you drink- Yeah... in the morning.
[21:32] Like, a drink is very ritualistic, and if you can get someone to really enjoy it, it's like it's a repeat on Amazon. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm just, I'm just on the subscribe train. Sweat out, sold in. Sweat out, boom.
[21:42] Sold in. Mm-hmm. That's the thing. Mm. Shout out to Chris- Christian's a good homie. Mm. Know him, know him well. Uh- I also think the, the branding plays a part into that, too. Like, you guys have clearly built out
[21:53] story- Mm... when it comes to Cadence. Like, it stands for something. But the brand- Mm.
[21:57] Like, you guys fucking nailed it, and, like, as I've kinda gotten into the world of running, there's, like, a certain swag that comes with running. Yeah. \[laughs\] And so, like, this- It's the UK swag, bro.
[22:07] You don't get it here. Dude, it fits- Oh, dude... it fits perfectly. All right. You know what? It's the champagne of ele- it's the champagne of electrolytes. Mm.
[22:13] That's what, like, the kinda thing is right now, and thankfully someone else said that and not me. But, um- \[laughs\] You know when you go into, like, um, you go into someone's house.
[22:22] You go into their bathroom, and it's a tiny little studio apartment in Brooklyn, and there's an Aesop- Yeah... candle burning in the, in the bathroom? Yes. You go, "Dude, I fuck with this guy."
[22:31] \[laughs\] Like, he's got the rizz. \[laughs\] This guy is... He's locked in. Like, doesn't matter. Yeah. Like, mattress on the floor. Like, struggling, I get it. \[laughs\] But he's got that Aesop burning in the bathroom.
[22:41] Mm-hmm. He's got the Aesop. Yeah. His finances are... He's, he's putting priority on the right things. \[laughs\] When you open, when you open the fridge and there's a Cadence, you're like- Yeah...
[22:50] "That's what we've created." It's $2 luxury. There's nothing in the world that's $2 luxury. Okay. How, how do we go about getting this to be two bucks and still actually make money?
[22:58] I, I've, I've done a lot- So it's two, it's 2.50. Okay, 2.50. 2.30. I've done a, I've done a lot of re- I'm very intrigued by just the beverage space. Mm. I might wanna get into it one day. Yeah.
[23:09] And I know how difficult it is with the weight. We talked to a guy who was a huge investor in Liquid Death, and he's made a lot of money in multiple ventures. It is...
[23:18] He was explaining to us how difficult it was 'cause Liquid Death originally started in Europe. Yep.
[23:21] And then they were trying to get it to go over to the US, and it was very difficult with shipping and all that good stuff. How do we end up making money on 2.50? Mm. And how, how does that process come to be?
[23:30] How do you decide to play at 2.50 and not $4 like all these other brands? Mm-hmm. When we go to the store, it's ridiculous to buy a drink for $4. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah.
[23:38] But that's how much they all cost now, and I, I remember when you told me, like, "Oh, it's 2.50," I'm like, "How?" And you told us that that was important to you. That was very important.
[23:45] Very important to me, yeah, because we don't think about... Well, we think about one brand, Gatorade, and they are about 11-and-a-bit billion dollar business, primarily hot-filled plastic bottles.
[23:58] And it affects our pricing strategy and our distribution strategy because if you wanna go after that market, not the beautiful little farmer's market, Erewhon, Fresh Thyme, I, I mean, those are customers that hopefully we'll do business with, great business with, but we...
[24:12] It isn't gonna help us towards our mission. So when we think about distribution and price, we think about the big Gatorade, Monster, that are doing $12 billion of hydration a year. So, mm, I...
[24:24] Also, we talked about, like, David's Bond, how they build their distribution. They wanted to be everywhere Bear Bellies as well. And everyone's like, "Why aren't you going to, like, Whole Foods?"
[24:30] And then he was like, "Because I'm going straight after the biggest competitor in the market. I wanna be where Mars barSo that's how I think about it.
[24:36] And therefore, in order to achieve that mission, we have to be as close within the pricing category of the bu- or we have to be as close with pricing the category.
[24:43] What that means is when I look left and right, if you're 25% outside of the category, i.e. everyone else is two and you're five, like, chances are middle of America still care about that $3 delta.
[24:55] And in order to achieve scale, you have to win over people outside of this bubble we live in in LA and New York. So I think about that consumer, which is affecting my distribution strategy. February, we go Target.
[25:07] We go July, we go Walmart, we go CVS, Walgreens. Like, we're going blitz in distribution- \[laughs\]...
[25:12] because as has, have Gatorade, and obviously they have the infrastructure of Pepsi and all the capital in the world, but it affects that.
[25:19] And I think price is such an important, um, metric in consuming purchasing decision, and we're very focused on scale within the beverage. How we achieve it,
[25:30] um, relationships with our co-man because when I rock up and say, "Hey, I ordered $27 million of cost in my last company a year.
[25:38] I'm gonna do that to you, too, and I'm gonna scale this to be times 10," they're probably willing to open the door and probably give me good terms. Second of all, uh, we have a blended portfolio of not only cans.
[25:48] We have sachets, bars, and gels that are higher margin products. When I bunt them together, it gives us a bledder- better blended margin.
[25:55] B2B, we ship direct, so we load container loads on a truck, and we ship them direct into distribution today, which helps middleman and people touching the product, which therefore eats away at margin.
[26:05] So a combination of strategy, contract manufacturers, and our supply chain have allowed us to price this at $2.50 and still make great margin. That's so interesting. Does it worry you at all to go into these six at once?
[26:18] Like, does that cross your mind at all? I know you've done it once with the big- 100%. Okay. It's very expensive. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't care about distribution, and no founder should care about distribution.
[26:27] I don't care how many stores you're in. I care about how much you turn in store per day, per week, per minute. That's all that matters.
[26:32] It's that gr- that is the heartbeat of any consumer business, units per store, per week, and dollars per store, per week. If you are outside of the category, i.e.
[26:40] you are like, if my biggest competitor is performing at 10 units a week per store and I'm at one unit a week per store, they're gonna take that off the shelf, and they're gonna put strawberry vanilla from that other brand right there and take me away.
[26:52] They don't care about brand. There's no loyalty in this fucking world, and definitely not in retail. So if anyone thinks there is, it's like, "Oh, we have a cooler brand." They're like, they don't care.
[27:00] \[laughs\] They care about money. It's a profit business. Show me the money. \[laughs\] Because the person buying my product is Margaret- Yeah...
[27:07] who lives in Minneapolis, and she gets her bonus at Christmas on how well her shelf did. That's it. If I'm bringing her shelf down just 'cause we have a sick brand, doesn't matter.
[27:20] So she wants to build her portfolio on the shelf of her 50 brands of what's gonna sell the most, so you have to just drive traffic.
[27:28] So there's tactics we use and the team we've hired now, um, to help drive tactics which can be in the store, which stores don't really do anything for you. They give you shelf space. That's all they'll ever do for you.
[27:38] They might help you work on trade, promotional pricing, two for five, little shelf tag, whatever, but everything you do from a brand perspective, from a ads perspective, from a community perspective, from an influen- influencer perspective to create awareness and then drive that into retail is all you should really care about, and that's what we're focused on now.
[27:56] I wanna touch on that, but I... Your guys are growing so fast, and I wanna, I wanna know how you think about speed as a founder. Yeah. It's all you've got. All you got. It's all you got.
[28:07] In the beginning, you're never gonna win on capital resources. You're only gonna win on speed. Um,
[28:14] with discipline, of course, you know, it's not frivolous execution, but I am going to win on speed because I'll, I made five decisions on a phone call outside before I came into this on, like, packaging A or B. A, go.
[28:27] Done. We'll make, go. B, flavor A or B, artwork, go. Like, that would take six months for, uh, my competitor to do.
[28:35] So I will have, in the space of five minutes, made decisions that we will see on shelf in three to six months, so I think speed is fundamentally the most important, um, trait you have as an early-stage founder.
[28:46] 'Cause you were talking about when you guys were dialing in the formula and the packaging and all that kind of stuff, it's like, it's a six-month process, potentially even longer.
[28:55] Knowing that, are you like, "We gotta get this fucking done quicker because speed is my advantage"? Yeah, 100%. I'm, I have... Super fortunate at my last company to be gifted a, a mentor for
[29:07] a short period of time, gentleman, um, who has an amazing book. It's called Amp It Up.
[29:11] If you're ever an early-stage founder and you're looking for, like, leadership, um, kind of advice, Frank Slootman, he has an amazing book, Amp It Up, and he talks about, like, just a relentless execution on the mission, and there should be zero light between you and the mission.
[29:24] And as you scale the business and you hire people, don't let those individuals who frankly, and I love my team, will never care as much as you.
[29:33] And what happens is people often see it as a job, and it's your job to make them feel 13 feet tall and change that mentality, but the reality is, is they can turn off. You cannot as a founder.
[29:42] So sometimes they bring the energy down a notch or two, and then you become, "Okay," like, "okay, I believe them because he was really successful at his last job, and now he works for me, and he knows better than me because he's an operational a- he's a killer in operations, and she's an operational, she's a sales executor, and what do I know because I'm just a founder with a vision?"
[30:02] And they say, "Oh, no, we gotta do that," and you bring it down, and your job is to be like, "Nope. Nope. Nope. When can I get that?" "10 days from now." "Well, can I get it in two days?"
[30:12] And then maybe you get it in four days, but at least you cut off six days.
[30:15] So, like, as a founder, your only real job in the beginning is to set the vision for the company, finance the company if you need to, yourself or other, and hire the best fucking team in the world.
[30:28] Like, that's all you should really focus on. Is it possible as you be- turn into this behemoth that you're thinking you can be that the speed stays?
[30:36] Well, I- Or is it inevitably, is it inevitably really- When you say behemoth, like- Oh, I, I, I'm-... $100 million is still a rounding error. I, I'm going b- I'm going with a B. I wanna be a b- Evaluation or revenue?
[30:45] Rev. How much you get to- I want a rev, baby. I want to be rev. \[laughs\] Absolutely not. I, I believe it. I believe you can do itIf we hit a billion in revenue, then- There's too many...
[30:53] Does, is there just so many people- I've never been there. Okay. Honestly, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We'll tap in in a year. Yeah, we'll tap in in a few months. Yeah, we're gonna get a call in a year.
[31:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. \[laughs\] But okay, at, just as you grow with speed, is it slowly as you've gotten- Of course... 10... Okay, it's slowly. Has to. I mean- More cooks in the kitchen.
[31:09] More cooks in the kitchen, and again, like, everything within reason. When I say speed- Yeah... it's not like we're just fucking- Yeah, yeah. \[laughs\]... throwing shit at a wall like, \[laughs\] let's go. 12 new cans.
[31:20] Ship it. \[laughs\] \[laughs\] Yeah. But we have stage gates and processes. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And we have amazing individuals who, like, tighten the reins, like, hold the glue, uh- Can I get another one of these?
[31:31] Yeah, absolutely. Can, can we get another one? Have you, have you tried cream soda? I would love to try cream soda. You're gonna be over- I would love to. Are you gonna be over, uh- Dude, I'm gonna go on a bender.
[31:37] How many of these can you drink? I'm gonna be working out. 40 a day. You brought up hiring, and so when it comes to hiring, obviously you wanna bring on a kickass team.
[31:45] But, like, what was that first key hire you guys brought on, and what do you look for when you bring on people to the Cadence team? Hm. Yeah. We, \[sighs\]
[31:54] we kinda went from, like, one to 10 instead of, like, one to two to two to four to five to seven. I was kind of, like, identifying what I wanted.
[32:03] I brought on a lot of people from my previous company, uh, that I wanted to go to war again with, and I just called them up and I was like, "Hey, I'm doing this again. Let's fucking rock."
[32:11] And, like, already had underwrote their skill set, was written five years 'cause I worked with them for a while.
[32:17] Uh, my cousin was my first employee at my last company, and he was my, technically my first employee at this company as well. He runs operations and finance, which is kind of important.
[32:26] \[laughs\] Um, 'cause I'm fucking useless at that. Um, joking. But I think, like, personality traits, you know, there's a few that we think about. We don't have, like, this HR booklet and, like, values document yet.
[32:38] Like, we just f- we're just running this thing, like, kind of from, like, a bunch of people that really care about the mission and want to do very well in life, honestly. Yeah. We, we also don't have an HR department.
[32:50] \[laughs\] Yeah, like, my HR- Dude, you want an HR brother? \[laughs\] Yeah. Nice to meet you. \[laughs\] Yeah, nice to meet you. I'm the same. Um- \[laughs\]
[32:58] I think, like, the one thing which we care a lot about is, like, self-starters. Like, I think- Yeah...
[33:02] your job as a founder, I said earlier, is, like, to make people feel 13 feet tall and give them a sandbox that allows them to feel important in, um, driving impact towards the mission. There's nothing worse...
[33:11] People talk about, "Okay, what makes you excited about work?" And you're fucking lying. Sorry for swearing so much. I'm from Scotland, so it's kind of like my second language. Please, let it rip. It plays here.
[33:18] If you don't care about financial goals, like, I don't believe you. If you're like, "Oh, you know, I'm just kinda focused on the mission," I'm like, "How are you gonna pay rent?" \[laughs\] 'Cause it's kind of important.
[33:26] So I truly believe that my job is to put people in a different position in life if they give me the best they got. And, like, I'll show you what best you got is, 'cause my pace is so... Like, I'm so on it.
[33:38] I can see people when I'm on a call, and I'm like, "All right, what's your problem? Like, what's the problem you're solving? Let's talk about it." We'll spend eight hours screens up, and I'm like, "Okay, what's next?"
[33:46] And I can see their face light up, and like, oh, this is what the pace looks like. Like, this is what it should look like. And I'm like, "Okay, what's... Tomorrow we go, 7:00 AM. Get on a call.
[33:56] Let's go for the next thing." I'm, like, literally there in front of them working through problems, so I think your job as a founder is also to, like, show people what greatness looks like. Um, yeah.
[34:05] Where does that come from? Oh. Was that... Is there something from your childhood that you experienced, or is it just you've always had that, like, "I'ma fucking go get this shit"?
[34:15] Or is there, is there something that, like, happened as a kid that you're, that really brought that drive into you, or were you just kind of naturally born with it? I was kind of lazy, honestly. Like- Really? Yeah.
[34:23] I played sport. I was very talented at s- uh, s- tennis, but, like, didn't really care. But, like, I'd be, like, six love up, five love up and, like, thinking about my dinner, you know?
[34:32] And I played in Spain, I played for my country, and, like, but I just didn't really care. And then I was, like, okay at school. I dropped out of college after, like, a year.
[34:41] Um, went on to my own crazy journey, and, like, here I am. But, um, I don't know. I honestly don't know.
[34:46] I think I just, similar to you guys, like, potentially was exposed to greatness and great people, and understanding there's pattern recognition and, like, I need to be like that. I don't find...
[34:56] Don't need a lot of motivation to get up and run anymore for, um... I don't need a lot of motivation to get up and, like, work 12-hour days. Um, so I don't know where it's come from. Mm. Wasn't some book or some quote.
[35:07] I just think that I have a specific goal in life, and I understand by looking around me that the people who have achieved the goals that I personally have in life have one to three traits, and one of them is, like, an obsession around, uh, work rate.
[35:21] Like, they just work ex- work hard. They work at such a level. Whereas, like, okay, if you're doing that and you're doing that and you're there, then chances are I probably need to do the same.
[35:30] And then now over the last five years, I've instilled that. On the topic of that, 'cause I've been watching a lot of your YouTube stuff, and I've also talked to Cole about this,
[35:38] and it's something I really admire about you, about the way you operate with your family- Mm... and your daughter. And Cole is like, "I love Ross.
[35:49] It can get kind of frustrating because, like, the only way we'll hang out is if we're going on a fucking run." Yeah. "And sometimes
[35:56] he's just fucking doubling the pace the last two miles 'cause he needs to make it home," 'cause you have a non-negotiable of I'm gonna see my daughter wake up every morning. Yeah.
[36:04] As someone who's trying to build a giant fucking company, but you prioritize your family,
[36:10] how do you set those boundaries in your business where you could work 12 to 16 hours a day, but you've set those boundaries for yourself where you have non-negotiables when it comes to your family and your daughter?
[36:24] Yeah, I remember that run a couple weeks ago with Cole where, like- \[laughs\]... we're on Main Street. Were you there? Yeah.
[36:31] We're on Main Street, and I'm like, "Bro, we're gonna have, we're gonna have to hit some six-minute miles on the way home." \[laughs\] He's like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "I gotta wake up my daughter."
[36:38] Non-negotiable, I wake up my daughter every weekend when she wakes up. I want her to see her father, um, because Monday to Friday I'm a little bit busier with the day job and I travel a lot.
[36:48] Um, like, I'm on a flight tonight, you know? Like, I wanna put her to bed tonight, and that's, like, a, a big thing for me. But I say it's my goals, not theirs.Um, that's what I say to myself.
[36:56] Like, my goal is my time, so if I'm going to do something that is as selfish as running for four hours, it better be on my time. Mm. Um, the...
[37:05] So the goals I have outside of business, which are training, for example, then I make sure that they don't need to affect everyone else around me, 'cause that's, that's selfish.
[37:13] Um, so the hours of 4:00 to 7:00 are called dad hours. Um, the hours of 7:00 PM to 9:00 PM are, are my, what I spend with my wife. So it's a great relationship that I have with my wife, and she understands the mission.
[37:27] She was there the day I came up with the, pretty much the name for my first company. Um, she helped me pack the boxes, um, so she understands what I'm doing now, and, you know, within reason, we've all benefited from it.
[37:38] Um, but I wanna be dad of the year, not athlete of the year. You know, that's my goal. \[laughs\] I love that.
[37:45] There was something I also saw that you've said, you've said in our pod, you've said this in your vlogs, how as a founder it's really important to be n- like neutral- Mm... and never be too high or never be too low.
[37:56] And it's funny, 'cause w- I was working with the Lakers during our playoff run. I remember LeBron would say this in the locker room. He'd be like, "Never too high, never too low.
[38:04] No matter if we're up a lot, we need to be even-keeltered. No matter if we're down a lot, we don't need to be down on ourselves, we need to keep even-keeltered."
[38:11] And I notice you said a very similar quote, like in your vlog, about how there might be a fire that day, but it's not my job to be like reactionary to this fire, it's my job to figure out how to put this fire out and not like bring that to the rest of the team.
[38:22] 100%. How, how do you do that, and what's that look like in actual practicality, being a founder in a company that's growing this fast? Mm. I think, um, yeah, I said that a couple days ago, and it was like real.
[38:35] It was very raw. Like that, that week I had landed our biggest, honestly a company-changing deal. We, we landed 4,000 stores, probably a multiple eight-figure deal on our first order.
[38:50] It was like close to nine figure over two years. It was, it was a massive deal on Monday. On... By Thursday I was like, "The company's, it's gone." Like, I'm falling out with this guy,
[39:02] cans are falling off a truck, like renegotiating terms that are gonna affect pr- Like it was a, it was... It's like so... The highs are so high, and the highs... The lows are so low that if you are affected by them,
[39:15] you're just gonna tread water, you know? Honestly. I think there's nothing wrong with feeling them.
[39:20] I think feeling is super important, but I have also become a little bit numb to it, I'll be honest, which makes me f- judge myself sometimes. I'm like, "Wow, am I just like, do I care about anything anymore?"
[39:30] Like, you could tell me we're gonna land a $50 million contract, and I'm like, "All right." 'Cause I expect that.
[39:35] Honestly, like that's the expectations I have on the business and the people, and then if things go wrong, I'm like, "I've solved just about every problem. Everything is solvable." So- \[laughs\]...
[39:43] like my buddy Chris messages me being like, "I disagree." And he was one of the founders of Bomb a- Bomb Energy and, and Raw. And he's like, "I disagree. You need to feel absolutely everything and let it like soak in."
[39:52] But the issue is, for me personally, as like the head of the company, everyone looks to me for where we're going, and if I'm stressed out, then sure as hell the first-time operations manager is gonna be sh- like pretty stressed out too.
[40:04] So I think, um, I've just been through so much. Um, any second-time founder, even any first-time founder who's been through five, six years of building consumer brand has probably dealt with just about everything.
[40:16] Uh, in the beginning, dude, I remember crying in my wife's apartment, uh, at the time girlfriend, that my packaging had a spelling mistake. Like crying. I was like, "The whole company's gone."
[40:28] \[laughs\] And now it's like I'll print five million cans with a, with a... Is there a small line error on your cola? There is. Yeah, there you go. See? Right under zero. That would've, that... You know, like who cares?
[40:41] Uh-huh. I've made so many millions of those that like I would- Oh, wow, and there's not, there's- There's none on that. Huh. Yeah, yeah. And I bet you if you didn't point it out, I, I would not have noticed.
[40:49] I, I would've, I would've noticed. I would've known. I just feel like, you know, I'm on the production line- Yeah... like, "What the \[laughs\] f- My own company's gonna fail."
[40:56] \[laughs\] Whereas like now you're just like, "Dude," like, "Next." You know? Yeah. So it just comes with time. It's like anything, you know? Mm-hmm. I'm Kevlar. Kevlar, bro. Kevlar suit on all the time. That's awesome.
[41:07] Um, you told us you're going from... You're being... You're in 2,000 stores right now- Oh, yeah... but you're gonna be scaling to 50,000? Yeah, so, um, we're in, um, we're in all of the Vitamin Shoppe's nationwide.
[41:19] We're in just about every GNC nationwide with our cans, depending on flavor, and some of our ready-to-mix products. And then, uh, we have a huge launch in February, which is announced here for the first time, is Target.
[41:32] Launching in Target. Um, beside, you know, different hydration beverages, and then as you think about the rest of the year, you're gonna find us in CVS, Walgreens nationwide.
[41:42] You're gonna find us in Walmart in July in all stores. Um, H-E-B, Publix, I mean, honestly, the number I'm not sure about. Distribution points, definitely like TDPs, 40,000 for sure, so probably like 8 to 10,000 stores.
[41:56] Yeah, that's insane. You told us that Cadence is built for scale. Mm. The only way you're able to do that kind of distribution is if you're built for scale.
[42:06] So how have you set up Cadence to be a brand that is built for scale? Unit economics is the first thing. So, um, what allows a business to scale is if you can afford it, one of the things.
[42:18] So if everything else is clicking, and we'll talk about that in a second, then X retailer comes along and wants to order 5 million cans, you have to be able to make it for less than you're selling it for.
[42:29] Sounds like a very basic thing, but some people don't get that right. And then you have to factor in all the other costs of doing business with a retailer, promotions, trade, freight, you know, anything else.
[42:41] Um, so we've got that right.
[42:42] We know that if we make it for X, I have the ability with my sales team where they can basically go and say, "If this opportunity is right for the brand, and if we feel like we can sell units per store, per week," i.e.
[42:54] do we think our shopper is there? Do we think our consumer is going to that location? For example-You know, arguably you could say that my shopper isn't at Walmart.
[43:02] I would disagree, because I think my shopper is going to buy hydration there from another brand. The data is showing me that, the buyer's telling me I'm selling a billion dollars of Liquid IV last 52 weeks.
[43:14] My job now is to say, "Okay, marketing team, let's make sure we win over that consumer and swap them going from X to Y," because there's already money being spent in that store, just not on me, so I need to bring in a new consumer or convert a customer.
[43:26] And in the life cycle of a brand, you probably wanna bring in an incremental customer first. So today you might not go to Target.
[43:35] But then if I am the f- if my first distribution point is in Target and you're an advocate for the brand, then it's kind of annoying to order a can on my website, five-day shipping, kind of expensive, you need to order 12 as a minimum, you're now gonna go to Target.
[43:48] So I'm gonna bring an incremental customer into the, into the store.
[43:52] If I can multiply that at scale, it's gonna add, like, unit dollars per store per week to the set, and Margaret in Minneapolis is gonna be pretty happy with me, and she's gonna expand my distribution, add in a new flavor.
[44:02] Boom. Next. The other thing is, is brand. So you have to be able to have the right... And it's kind of an chicken and egg because with distribution comes awareness, right? Because everyone...
[44:14] You know, an end cap in, in Target, like, the end situation where you see these brand displays get us about 40 to 70 million people walk past it a quarter. Whoa. Find me a shopper tactical hacker guy- Yeah...
[44:27] on Twitter- Mm-hmm... that can get me 40 to 70 million organic views a month. That's crazy. Max was telling... Max Ching was telling us all about the, uh...
[44:35] When he got into Target, they're like, "Max, we'd really like you to be at the end cap." He goes, "Super excited about that." And they're like, "It's gonna be an extra 50,000-" \[laughs\]... per store. He's like- More...
[44:44] "Yeah. More. More." A fit out for an end cap if it's done right can be 500 bucks. We're doing s- 4,000 end caps in July. Wow. It's like $3 million of fit out fees. Wow. Wow. Fit out fees.
[44:55] And, um, that's just kinda the price of rice. Yeah. You're just like, "I wanna play ball." Just play the game. Yeah.
[45:00] But it's like I'll factor into, like, okay, when you, when you look at the opportunity in a store, I don't know how tactical we wanna get into it, but I'm basically saying, "Okay, buyer, Margaret, what is my competition selling every single week?"
[45:11] And she'll give you that data. So I know that this can, if I forecast, it will sell eight units a week per store, multiply by 4,000 stores, I have four SKUs.
[45:19] There'll be some cannibalization because people are not gonna buy all four. They're gonna buy, you know, opt in to buy one or two maybe.
[45:26] And then I'm gonna build a business case for that business, so how much am I gonna potentially achieve from a base case and an upside case.
[45:31] If this goes really well and fricking Joe Rogan starts to talk about it, I'm gonna have a higher base case, but I build my marketing spend and what I can afford to do based on my base, and I'll do that over, let's say, a 12-month period.
[45:44] So I know the business is gonna bring me in 3 million of gross sales based on my wholesale price into distribution, and I'm gonna probably spend around 20% trade.
[45:53] I'm gonna take that 3 million, spend 20% of that, 600 grand, on building the awareness.
[45:58] So all the influencers going into Target and like, "Come with me as I buy my first hydration brand at Target," and we're gonna 5,000 of those, and then we're gonna do all sorts of sh- shit. So, yeah.
[46:07] So w- when you go into... You mentioned a lot of different stores. Yeah. There's, there's CVS, there's- Yeah... H- H-E-B, right? Is there a chance that one of them doesn't do what you think it could do, right?
[46:17] And then what ha- what happens with that? Do you lose that relationship if it doesn't sell very well? Do they put you to the bottom and then slowly you're like, "Fuck, we didn't make it in this store.
[46:24] We didn't do what we were supposed to do, and now we gotta focus on this other one"? Like, what is that like? Yeah, 100%. Okay. It is... definitely, um, has happened to us before. Mm.
[46:32] I've lost one account in my last business. We weren't performing right. Looking back at it, my consumer wasn't there. We took the opportunity, but, you know, we didn't invest into it, and my customer wasn't there.
[46:42] As I think about Cadence, you know, we're probably taking on a lot of custom- You can probably take on one to two retailers a year. I don't know what the number is.
[46:50] There'll be someone who's smarter than me who'll tell us. Um, whereas I'm also... I'm a, I'm a believer that this category is expanding so quickly.
[46:59] I mean, you turn on your phone today, there's hydration, hydration, hydration, hydration, creatine, creatine, creatine, hydration, hydration.
[47:05] And, like, I have an early mover advantage with a great liquid, great relationships, and well-funded business where I can kind of feel that I can just go at it and fix it as I build, you know? And that's different.
[47:17] If I'm entering the coconut water market, like, chances are it's a little bit harder for me right now.
[47:22] There's brands that are doing tens of millions of dollars a week in categories, ZICO, et cetera, uh, Cult, and, um, you know, you probably have to be more methodical because you're not gonna displace a brand that's doing well.
[47:34] There's not really that many hydration carbonated beverages that taste like your favorite soda right now, so we're kind of doing something unique, and we have the ability to basically take that business, build a team around it, and make sure we execute.
[47:48] But the point is, yes, it's nervous. It's definitely nervous. Um, so that's where it comes into building the brand and the marketing. Does your pitch change as you go to different retailers, or is it relatively the same?
[48:00] You know, within reason. Ei- eight out of 10 is the same spiel. Um, you know, most retailers wanna know a little about how you're gonna add incrementality to the category. They've got Gatorade willing to pay them.
[48:11] To not have you in. Yeah. Honestly. Um- Wow. Gatorade's getting nervous. Yeah. \[laughs\] We call ourself a midgie biter. Uh-huh. You know, when you're- You take, you take a little bit off that...
[48:21] you know, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah... like, like, uh, like we're not a shark, right? We're a midgie biter. Mm-hmm. Mosquito. Was that what you called it? Mosquito? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[48:26] You know, you're in the room, and there's like, fuck, mosquito. Yeah. Like, that's what we are, you know? Mm-hmm.
[48:32] Um, and there's obviously brands that have become sharks, like OLIPOP, and the guys at Poppi, you know, they've started to become a threat, so they get acquired.
[48:39] Um, we're definitely not a threat to anyone right now, but, um, you know, yeah, we, we have to build... Uh, you have to build a strong, uh, uh, you have to build a strong presentation for retailer.
[48:51] The number one thing that you can do for retailer to e- get them excited to bring your product in is data.
[48:58] So if you launch at the local shop, you say, "Well, we are outselling this brand that you already have in my local shop."Ah, okay, that's pretty cool.
[49:10] And you magnify that now, where I turn around and say, "Hey, in Vitamin Shoppe, I'm performing better than most of the major brands in those fridges," the brands that are owned by the big guys, Celsius, et cetera.
[49:22] So I turned around to the retailers, and I say, "I'm the th- my mel- my melon berry in GNC is the third-best selling out of 40 brands. My citrus and cola in the Vitamin Shoppe is top 10 out of 50 brands."
[49:33] So then I'm taking that data, and I'm turning around to buyer X, Margaret, and I'm saying, "You don't have this, you know? And I'm... In those stores, they're making all this money. You want some of that, too?
[49:44] Okay, we'll bring you in." Underst- she doesn't compete with Vitamin Shoppe. It's not like you're sitting there and being like, "Am I gonna go to Ralph's or Vitamin Shoppe?" Mm. No.
[49:51] Yeah, you're- They're completely different- Yeah. Uh-huh... consumers. I see. And they're completely different decisions.
[49:55] So you try and add value, and then also the last thing I'll say is you try and give cons- uh, retailers different opportunities, case sizes, flavors, something you don't have that they don't have, et cetera.
[50:07] Um, but yeah. So it's very, it was very conscious, too. I, I mean, like I, I can't really think of many melon berry things I've ever had, honestly. Yeah. Like, can't really think of many things.
[50:15] That's because we're like gelato, not ice cream. Mm. Talk to him now. Yeah. Fuck yeah. Luxury. We're luxury. We're $2 luxury. Ooh. I like that, man. Yeah. Yeah, that, that's... How conscious was that?
[50:28] Like, it's kind of like a tagline, like, we are a $2.50- Luxury... we're 2.50 luxury. Yeah. This can feels premium as fuck. Yeah, it feels premium. Yeah. The branding's on point. Yeah. Yeah. You feel...
[50:38] I feel expensive right now. Yeah, expensive, yeah. Yeah, I'm feeling... Dude, I'm walk- Yeah, yeah... I'm gonna walk to the airport on Thursday. Yeah. People are gonna be asking, "Where'd you get that?" Yeah.
[50:45] I might, might sneak this through TSA. Yeah. They might not even know. I mean, it's meme culture, right? Mm-hmm. You know the White Monster memes? Uh-huh. Like, you see a guy in a White Monster, you know what he is.
[50:52] You're like, "You know what?" Dude, I used to drink that shit in college. Dude, I... Nothing. I mean, I'll crush a White Monster. \[laughs\] I got nothing against White Monster.
[50:57] Dude, when I'm in the, whenever I'm in the- You want some of that White Stallion? \[laughs\]... whenever I'm in the UK, White Stallion's different, dude. It is.
[51:01] They don't- They don't have, they don't have other stuff up there. \[laughs\] But, like, you... I'm obsessed with the consumer, obsessed. I know what that guy pays for rent. I know what he had for dinner. Mm.
[51:09] Like, it says so much about you, um, what you drink, you know? Like- It does. No, it does... the guy that drinks the 42 on ice. Or the guy that's drinking the Gorilla Mind, I'm like, "Whoa, man." But it's true, right?
[51:20] \[laughs\] Bang Energy. \[laughs\] Dude. Yeah, the Bang Energy. I'm like, "Brother, hey, keep it chill, man. Be nice to the guy that's drinking the Bang, \[laughs\] dude." But, like, jokingly, you know where he trains.
[51:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what his split is. Uh-huh. You just know- Yeah... when you see a, a guy or girl, 'cause we have a really strong female audience, which I think is part of the strategy here.
[51:39] And, you know, we're very- Very... No, this is unisex... it's unisex. 100, 100%. You see those other drink cans, and you don't wanna be carrying it around. Our ta- Yeah. We get, like,
[51:47] 200 to 250 tagged pictures a day on social. We're a year old. Wow. Dude, y'all are, like, road, man. Like- Was it bumped up with the, with New York Marathon? Oh, New York was a crazy... I had to...
[51:57] I didn't go, actually, because first question you asked about what I'm focused on, I just don't induce distraction. Uh, I'm not gonna go, because it's too busy. Yeah. There's too much noise, and I'm not the guy.
[52:08] Like, I got my team. Like, they're gonna be... I'm not... I don't need to be at all that and razzamatazz and the run clubs, and I, I... Like, we do it, but, like, I got Cam, I got Alex, I got Herc, I got the squad there.
[52:20] Will will show up, handsome motherfucker. Like, you know, like, I'm, I'm, I'm in the P&L. \[laughs\] I'm, like, figuring this can printing issue out. So I didn't go, 'cause it's, like, a bit of a distraction.
[52:30] It was one of the busiest weeks for us as a company. You bring up data, though, and how important that is when you're pitching retailers.
[52:36] Is there something that is almost harder to track, but makes you feel or believe that you're on the right track?
[52:44] For example, getting tagged in an Instagram post or, like, seeing your product on a flat lay for the marathon as opposed to some... like, another company. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I had the mission.
[52:55] I used X a lot, and I said, like, a year ago that I wasn't reposting anyone who used our first product can, because I could see too many other brands on the flat lay. Mm.
[53:06] Fast-forward New York, it was just like, dude, the roads were covered in Cadence gel. \[laughs\] Like, covered. I got people messaging me like, "What the hell happened?"
[53:15] And flat lays all over being like gel, bar, sachet, bottle, can. Sh- it was kinda sick. \[laughs\] Yeah. Um, you know, am I gonna go around saying, like, "We were 250 tags this day. Like, buy our business," you know?
[53:28] Like, mm, but anyone who's smart enough, where you're... who you're selling that to is primarily probably an investor. Sure. And you're like, "We're building this community. We're building a cult."
[53:36] You know, we got, like, 40, 50 people with the Daily Discipline tattoo. Daily Discipline's our tagline. Wow. It's kind of our version of, like, another brand down in Austin that have their tagline.
[53:45] Um, it's tattooed on my arm here. And I think we put out a tweet being like, "Anyone who has it, I'll fuel them for a year," and we got, like, 60, 60, 65 people who had the tattoo. Wow.
[53:55] So, like, early indicators that you're creating a movement and a lifestyle brand that people wanna be associated to. Yeah. That is so, so interesting. Yeah, yeah.
[54:05] Yeah, that's g- that's, like, um, that's the hardest thing to do is, like- Yeah... build a cult. Like, you're building a movement. And you can't fake it. No, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[54:13] Like, I just, like, you know, I just... We don't, like, we s- you know, we don't know each other that well, but, like, we really, like, George and, like, me, and there's nothing fake about it, you know?
[54:24] Like, you don't... We don't have to try that hard. We really do it. Like, he, he called me and being like, "Bro, I'm running at, like, 350 this morning." I'm like, "Bro, that's too early. I'm gonna go at 450."
[54:32] So, like, this concept of, like, on a mission, daily discipline, guys now, I think the modern influencer, you know, is, um, inspiring through different means, whereas before it was like who's partying the hardest and, like, who's popping the biggest bottles at the club and living in Miami.
[54:46] And now when you think about who you're influenced by, like, I'm influenced by the dad who's got a couple hundred mil in the bank and he's got some shredded abs and a hot wife. Mm-hmm. Like, those are the- And some drip.
[54:57] \[laughs\] And some drip, true. That sick fucking Rolex. No, you're right, dude. You're right. I'm sorry to sound like that guy, but when I, like, turn...
[55:03] Like, times have changed, and I think people are influenced by different things. So when I think about how we've built the community, it's because we-You know, I think a fundamental...
[55:11] The times have shifted between what the young man or woman want in their life, and it is fitness, and it's hydration, and it's performance, and it's aspiration. Being fit is also, I think, a sign that someone is...
[55:22] is disciplined. Yeah. Someone, that someone that cares, they give a fuck. There's like, it is not easy to be fit. There's a requirement there- Yes... of like, you- Oh, 100%.
[55:32] When you, when you see someone that is fit, that's someone you wanna do business with, that's someone you want in your corner.
[55:36] You're like, "I know that this person goes the extra mile with, like, little details and shit." The dues have been paid. 100%. Yeah. Dude- Absolutely... it's the fairest sport in the world. Mm. Mm.
[55:45] Your body, other than people who have health issues- Yes, totally... eradicate that from the conversation. Totally. Totally. Don't wanna get canceled. Yeah.
[55:51] \[laughs\] Um, but, like, factually speaking, how you look is, \[sighs\] economic circumstances, I understand that. Yeah. Yeah, totally. But, like, me and you, same everything. Like, we have the same opportunities.
[56:03] I can go for a run, you can go for a run. We can eat chicken and rice, whatever you wanna eat in your life, count your calories. Like, it's a pretty fair... It's not opinion-based sport.
[56:10] Business is an opinion-based sport. You like that, you don't. You're a decision-maker, you're not. I go up, y- I go down. Whereas, like, how you look generally is a pretty even keel. It's a pretty even sport.
[56:21] Um, and I like, I like those odds- Yeah... where you can control things. When you think about your marketing though, I wanna get into, like... 'Cause we've talked about the branding of the actual can. Yeah.
[56:30] The branding of Cadence itself and the marketing, your guys' campaigns are fucking next level. Mm. Like, the actual content is second to none.
[56:40] How do you think about that from, I know you said you're, like, not crazy in the weeds of it, but, like, when it comes to doing new campaigns, launching new products, like, the content that you guys are putting out on social media, your website, how do you think about that
[56:56] to allow you to create a cult-like- Mm... audience and a culture around your brand? Yeah. I would say I, I definitely spend, uh, more time than I should on it. I love it.
[57:05] It's, like, my favorite part of the business, and I work closely with Alex, um, who I have to give most of the credit for. Alex always...
[57:11] I mean, Alex Lopez, sorry, um, who's our creative director and has a great pulse on, you know, where we wanna take the vision of the brand.
[57:20] I think what's also important is I work so closely with him, so he can soak up where my vision is for the brand, and I think any people who have a pair like that, you have to work simultaneously because you have to work in tandem.
[57:30] We do a lot of storytelling.
[57:32] Um, I think w- in a world of maximalism and consumerism, where everyone's trying to sell you everything on an ad, on a discount, on AI-generated, like, best in the world, we've kind of taken a different approach, and we think that inspiration, aspiration comes from storytelling.
[57:49] For us, it was through athletes, individuals running, um, the fastest marathons in the world, individuals running across the country, and what's the brand who did that the best? Red Bull.
[57:57] There's no pictures of their can. Everyone talks about that on their social media.
[57:59] They have people jumping out of planes or off buildings, or BMX is doing 500 flips, you know, whatever, and we took a lot of inspiration from that and say, "Okay, let's step away from the product.
[58:08] Let's look at who we want to appeal to and what they're interested in." My consumer wants to watch Will Goodge run across Australia, and then he fuels with Cadence.
[58:17] So naturally, we integrate product, but through storytelling, and that's always been kind of how we wanted to position the brand front and forward, that we really don't have a lot of pictures of our can on our Instagram.
[58:27] Mm. Um, not specifically because we won't do it, just because we wanna differentiate ourself in a crowded category of people who are just constantly selling you what they have to offer you. Um, in addition,
[58:39] um, I'm surrounded with people with- who just have a creative pulse, George, and the guys there, and Caesar, and Alex, and we kinda live in the world of fashion and luxury, so, um, something that has always been important, and I go back to the fact that it's all you've really got in the end is your brand.
[58:53] So, um, yeah, if you become a me too, you just become, you know, a ro- a race to the bottom on price.
[58:59] What were some of these bottlenecks that popped in as the brand has scaled that were really important that we had to fix to keep growing and keep excelling, that would save a founder from a lot of headache?
[59:11] I mean, the hardest thing in a business when you're scaling from zero to 10 or 1 to 10 million, I think, is, um, demand planning. So
[59:23] I'm gonna go and make my minimum of these, and they're gonna last me till here, and then I'm gonna probably use that cash and order again, you know, here. The issue is if you sell out here, \[laughs\]
[59:35] you, you, you, you didn't demand plan right, so we didn't forecast how many cans. And consistently for about the last 365 days, we've not been in stock for 200 days on our website 'cause we continuously sell out.
[59:47] I think that's a glorified thing. I don't think people should necessarily be proud of selling out because we sell a subscription offering where people should drink it every day, so if they can't drink it every day- Mm...
[59:56] it goes against my mission of fueling the athlete. So with all that being said, the hardest thing to do is how much do I need to have to buy what I think I can support for a period of, let's say, 12 weeks?
[1:00:07] Problem is, if that sells out in four weeks, you're kind of screwed because your manufacturer doesn't have time to produce for you. You gotta book in over here, buddy. Join the wait list.
[1:00:16] And if it lasts you too long, you can't... You don't have the cash generation- Mm... to do the fun stuff, and the cool campaigns, and the sponsoring of X and Y.
[1:00:24] So it's just this, like, constant threading of the needle of, like, inventory and cash, and then it's called demand planning, and it's one of the hardest things to do as a business because you go from selling 100 grand a month to a million a month to 10 million a month, and, like, what I always say is companies...
[1:00:39] We're gonna grow 500% this year. \[laughs\] First year to second year. Yeah, and do you know anyone that grew 500%? I'm... You know, grow 1%. This guy right here, man.
[1:00:49] \[laughs\] No, but, like, I'm telling you on this- \[laughs\] No, no. Yeah, no, not at all... like, it just doesn't happen. Yeah. You know?
[1:00:53] I hope I get this question later on this week from somebody else, be like, "Nah, I actually do fucking grow-" No, I actually do, man. \[laughs\] Let me, let me shoot him a text right now. \[laughs\] Yeah.
[1:00:59] That's f- what- Like, people and companies don't grow at the same pace. That's insane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just not, it's just not a thing. I feel like you'd, you'd be happy if you grew 100%- Yeah... every year.
[1:01:07] You'd be, you'd be stoked, man. There's a lot of brands right now that are down 70% on the year. Yeah. Big brands that are down a lot. Dude, you know Sweetgreen and Cava? Down fucking crazy. I know. I know. I know.
[1:01:18] Saw that yesterday, man, as a ve- as a- \[sighs\] I know... overrated salad bowlI like Sweetgreen, bro. I eat Sweetgreen I, I like Sweetgreen. Nick Jawin's a very good friend of mine I'm a bowl guy, man. Yeah.
[1:01:26] I d- I, I love the bowl situation. Yeah, I know. I love the- I'll honestly, I love the brand. I think it's one of the best consumer brands. I think Sweetgreen have a great product, and I love the team there. I'm biased.
[1:01:36] Nick's a very good friend of mine. Mm. Uh, his wife, his whole family are amazing. I think naturally speaking, you know, same as us, like, their Gatorade is, like, Chipotle and McDonald's. You know?
[1:01:44] Like, it's hard to sell people a $20- Yeah... my salad at Sweetgreen, by the way, is, like, 30 buck. I don't know what I put in it, but it's not cheap. Yes. And that's hard to bring- Yeah, totally... mass America.
[1:01:53] So go back to that question, like- Yeah. Mm-hmm... the Gatorade for them, like, you just rock up to Burger King and get, like, a $4 meal deal. Even Chipotle's gotten more expensive, though. My Chipotle order- Yeah...
[1:02:01] the other day, I hadn't been to Chipotle in a really long time, and I was in a pinch. I'm like, "I'll go get a little double C- I rate Chipotle... double chi- I rate Chipotle. I know you like Chipotle.
[1:02:07] I, I just, I really prefer now to cook at home. I cook at home most of my meal- Have you been to that health... I cook at home as well. Mm. Have you been to the one, uh, uh, uh, Tala Organic? No. I haven't.
[1:02:18] The, the Chipotle or, the Chipotle killer? It's good, bro. I need to try it. It's good. I've been... You know, there's a spot over in Santa Monica that I really like that's a beef tala burger and fries.
[1:02:26] It's called, um- Mm... silly ass name. Horrible name. I can't even remember it, it's so bad. Palms & Patties. Palms & Patties, yeah, yeah, yeah. Palms & Patties. I've not been. Fire, though. Yeah.
[1:02:34] Actually a really good burger. It's super- I think it's just... Yeah, it's interesting, though, because- The health-conscious person going forward, man... w- I feel like, uh, a, like, a,
[1:02:45] it, they used to be positioned in a place where it's, like, 13, 14- Yeah... maybe $15. Their costs have risen. And, like, now you're talking about something that's costing, like, 22 to $26. You're like,
[1:02:59] "This is getting kind of expensive." Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, it's j- And if we're feeling like that in LA- Mm-hmm...
[1:03:04] where you're in a bubble where you can go to fucking Erewhon and spend $35 on a hot plate and be like- Yeah... "Um, if I get, if I get Erewhon under $30," you're like, "I won."
[1:03:12] \[laughs\] But now you talk about, like, Middle America, you're like, they're looking at a $22 smoothie or a $22- That's crazy... Sweetgreen. It's ridiculous. It's, it's a lot. It's absurd.
[1:03:21] I don't even know how that little Earth Bar place survives, man. It's a $20 smoothie if you go. People buy it. It's aspiration. It's- It's brand. People want in. Yeah. It's content. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[1:03:29] It's, um- It's very, very interesting. God. You also brought up in a YouTube video that you had a great conversation with a partner in the Middle East. Mm.
[1:03:39] And you said that distributing abroad is, like, difficult, and it can, if you're partnered with the wrong person, it can hinder the brand, 'cause it's like, that's your baby. Yep.
[1:03:50] And, and, uh, distributing abroad is, is tough. So what about the deal with the partner in the Middle East, like, works, and what are you looking for in a partner when you go to distribute, um- Yeah... abroad?
[1:04:03] Yeah, I also said that, like, I hate international business- Yeah... because I believe that until you've achieved a certain scale, like, why would you take your resource allocation?
[1:04:12] So all, if all you have is speed, and you're never gonna win on resource or capital, then why are you taking your resource and your capital, the two things that you can't beat other people on, and deprioritizing the core strategy, uh, of the business, i.e.
[1:04:28] US retail, and having them going over here and deal with a very small rounding error? Because you're not just gonna hire more people to deal with, like, a couple POs a year.
[1:04:39] So I generally hate it, and I don't think many businesses should do it until they reach, let's say, $100 million. When it's the right time to do it probably comes down to a couple things.
[1:04:48] One is, like, operational complexity and lift. For us, when we went into Australia way ear- way too early probably- Mm... we had to change our artwork on our can.
[1:04:56] Our MOQs are so high, so I had to get regulatory in, have an Aus- Australian business set up, an Australian lawyer, reprint the can, ship them off to Australia, tie up our cash, send it off.
[1:05:06] And, like, it's been an okay business. Yeah. It will grow. We're launching 7-Eleven there, 750 stores, couple of other big gas stations, petrol stations. But you get excited by, like, "Oh, international.
[1:05:15] Australia, it's so sick." But, like, nothing else matters other than this four walls of America. Mm.
[1:05:20] Like f- Celsius, however many billion dollars here, Monster, Ghost, look at all these brands, they just focus on this market. And, um, that's what I'm trying to instill in my team. But what do I look for?
[1:05:32] I look for brand alignment in terms of, um, are they gonna represent the brand well?
[1:05:37] Because you don't lose control of the brand, but chances are you're not gonna be signing off on every mom and pop shop they put it into. And thankfully for us, we're okay kinda being in a lot of places.
[1:05:49] Um, but, you know, if I see a Cadence run club out in the Middle East- Yeah... and it's like, I'm like, "I'm pulling the plug on that thing." Like, that's just jeopardizing- Mm...
[1:05:58] my core business, because people are gonna get confused if they start seeing athletes who are fueled by Cadence, and they're not, who we...
[1:06:03] So there's certain rules and regulations we put in place contractually that they can't do X and they can't do Y.
[1:06:09] This individual, Hamdan, happens to be a very good friend of mine, a very successful entrepreneur, and has full alignment on who the brand is and where we wanna be.
[1:06:17] And then the last thing I'll say is, like, it's a very easy supply chain. He's buying the same can as we make today. No artwork changes, no labeling changes, and he picks it up at our factory in a truck.
[1:06:27] Like, I don't have to do anything. So, you know, for me, it's like, you know, it's a nice... I mean, uh, the, the, Ahmed from Woodpoint over there created a great business.
[1:06:35] He's always over there, you know, raising capital. Um, they're becoming a very health-conscious state. Um, we're launching Emirates Airlines, things like that, so there is some big revenue opportunities for us.
[1:06:46] You guys are partnering with Emirates? Yeah, yeah. So you'll be on- Oh... the plane? You know. Holy- Touch wood and say our good day. Yeah. Wow, that's so cool. Yeah. \[laughs\] Yeah. Get pretty dehydrated on a flight.
[1:06:56] Damn, that's true. That is so true. And Emirates is top- That's tip, tip-... of the crown... tip, tip-top of the mountain. Yeah, all the cool... There's a big food culture there.
[1:07:04] You don't really, don't drink a lot of alcohol. Clearly, Emirates- Yeah... is local culture, and obviously there's Brits abroad, um, who drink enough for everyone, but- \[laughs\]... um, it's a big food culture.
[1:07:14] People eat a lot, drink a lot of coffee, a lot of coffee shops, great chains. So it's, it's an okay market.
[1:07:18] It will be generally, you know, 1% to 2% of the business, but we can still do a couple million dollars there for sure. Yeah, and that's really solid. So- Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Go.
[1:07:26] I've gotta stick on Emirates for a secYou talk about having leverage and being able to, like, do these deals on your own term. Are you working into an Emirates deal first-class flights? \[laughs\] Me personally? Yeah.
[1:07:41] \[laughs\] I need an agent or something. \[laughs\] I'd rather just take the money. Okay. Yeah, yeah. No. Have you flown Emirates first class? I've never flown Emirates first class. No, no. \[gasps\] That's the goal. Yeah.
[1:07:50] Yeah, yeah. I actually looked at it. I'm going over to Dubai in December. Uh, we're launching in November, so, like, now. Uh, I know George is going out, and then Will's out, um, to activate. Uh-huh.
[1:07:59] And, um, I just can't make it work 'cause I'm traveling too much. I'm going to London next week to do some cool Sh- Suil stuff.
[1:08:05] And then I was like, "Let me take my wife, who's been through the wringer with me, and my daughter, go for a holiday." I wouldn't opt or choose Dubai naturally. Uh-huh.
[1:08:13] Um, got other places in the world, but because we're launching... And I looked at first class flights, and I was like, "I need to sell a few more cans first." \[laughs\] You know? Like...
[1:08:21] Or I'm like, "I'll do some influencer stuff." \[laughs\] Or- Do a poster now. Yeah, yeah. "Come with me on my first-class flight to Paris." I was like, "Dude, that's probably-" I've been vlogging on YouTube.
[1:08:29] Bro, I'm like, that's probably one of the things I, like, would do it for, but, um- That's so funny... no, no. I've been business class. I've been fortunate enough to do that.
[1:08:37] But also, like, a few years ago when flights weren't as expensive, it's like crazy. Sure. I go... I'm going to New York tomorrow. I'm, like, taking a red-eye, which is, like, the worst flight, and I'm like, "How much?"
[1:08:45] Yeah. Crazy. God, yeah, those New York flights are expensive. Yeah. Hong Kong, man, we bought a little early. We- Hong Kong... we got a good deal. We gotta, we gotta get a deal. Hong Kong is actually where I wanna go.
[1:08:51] I wanna run Hong Kong in March. Ooh. Um- We were talking. So I, I ran one marathon in May. I haven't ran one since. Okay? What one did you run? I ran the, uh, the one in Orange County. Oh, nice. It was fun.
[1:09:02] Uh, it wasn't really fun. Anyways- \[laughs\] I have a love-hate relationship with running 'cause I wrestled in high school. Mm. So we'd run a lot, late at night, every single day, like, all of high school.
[1:09:11] So- Trying to cut weight... yeah, I was trying to cut w- A lot of trauma with running... yeah, a lot of trauma with running. With running. You know? It's, like, not my love.
[1:09:15] But we were talking to our buddy, uh, Johnny Hochstetler, J-Hoch, and he's like, "We should run New York." And I've been seeing the stories. I'm very... I was like, "That looks like a fun time." Yeah.
[1:09:24] And all our friends that live in New York are like, "This is the marathon to do." Orange County, I didn't feel any vibes from- No... there's no vibe in the city in Orange County, man. No.
[1:09:30] We were running through, like, a local high school. No. There was no one there for, like, hour... like, two hours of the run. It's just me and this one dude who we kept going back and forth with, passing.
[1:09:39] That's all you're really running with. There's no, like, city kinda... I'd see my mom and my girlfriend and my aunt, like, be like, "Whoo," and that was it, you know? Yeah. So, like, we kinda want some vibe.
[1:09:47] Like a- Oh, a major mara- like, the vibe at... I ran London. I ran New York last year, and I was meant to run this year. I had a meeting.
[1:09:53] I had to cancel, whatever, but I deferred, and my promise is I'm always gonna run New York. That's my city. That's where I met my wife, like- Mm. To me, that's really home.
[1:10:02] And, uh, the energy in that city, especially, like, mile 1 to 12 coming through Brooklyn- Mm... like, there's some- you got people sh- you know, one of the tactics I'll say is printing your name on your jersey.
[1:10:15] So it's like, "Ross, Ross, Ross." I'm like, "Yes." \[laughs\] But I wouldn't... I, I... You know, like- Let's go. \[laughs\] But it's, like, a million people or something crazy. Yeah. Yeah. You know?
[1:10:24] And obviously now, like, you know, it's become this big, you know, you know, influencer i- infused activity or y- me being in the city for the week, and it's an energy that actually will carry you through 26 miles.
[1:10:35] You can't muscle- Mm... through 26 miles, but in New York you can. Mm.
[1:10:38] 'Cause they just lift you up, and I think, um, the only thing I'll say is I'll never try and, like, race New York because- It's a lot of stimuli going on... uh, yeah, no. It's just also, it's a...
[1:10:46] Well, first of all, it's a very tough course. If you're gonna, like, try and PR, like, I wouldn't pick New York. I've got friends who have PR'd New York, and, like, fair play to them.
[1:10:54] You gotta be really strong on the hills and the bridges. But, like, you go see your buddies. If you drink, you crack a beer. If not- Mm...
[1:11:00] you crack a cadence, and then you have a slice of pizza on mile 12 at the Dirty Bird pop-up, and it's just, like, an energy where you just... Like, I don't... I wanna be out here for five hours.
[1:11:09] \[laughs\] Honestly, I don't wanna be- Yeah, yeah... I don't wanna be done in two and a half. I wanna be out here for five. So, um, my buddy this year did a reverse. You see that? No. Hercules.
[1:11:18] He r- he went to the start... He went to the finish line at 1:00 AM, ran to the start line, and then ran the marathon. \[laughs\] It's crazy. Holy shit. So he ran- He-... so he ran 40 some or 50- He ran, he ran 80...
[1:11:30] He ran 84, 85K. Yeah. Yeah. Math isn't really Brayden's strong suit. I'm not good at math. So yeah, do the- That's not me... help me out with that, guys. \[laughs\] He ran two marathons. Yeah.
[1:11:38] Yeah, like, actually ran two marathons. And he also, like- Ran, like, 52 miles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't just, didn't just jog it. He just, like, he's r- I mean, he, he can run a t- he's a very fast marathoner. Wow.
[1:11:46] He just ran across Montenegro last month. He's done 150 miles in a day. Mm. He's, like, a... He works with us. He h- he heads up brand in the UK for us. Wow. Mm. He also happens to be, like, a top, top runner.
[1:11:58] Um, but he ran with his fiancée. But, you know, he does a lot of content, and it was kind of, like... went kind of viral online. He got a lot of hate for it, which is part of the...
[1:12:06] I mean, running's a funny sport, you know? It's like- Yeah, runners, there's an interesting group that runs, man. Interesting group. That's funny. Yeah. People need to just chill out a little bit.
[1:12:12] Yeah, people need to relax. I saw the... Wait, on the topic- Crack a cadence, dude. Yeah, yeah. \[laughs\] Pop a cadence and chill, dude. Come on, man.
[1:12:18] I, um, on the topic of running and it being kind of a weird sport, I saw some...
[1:12:21] It must have been on TikTok, or somebody was telling me that they were posting on Strava, and this, like, really, like, really successful, like, fast runner was, like, commenting hateful shit- Oh yeah, I saw this, I saw this...
[1:12:34] of like, oh, cute run or something. Yeah, yeah, I saw this. I'm like, what are you doing? Oh. You know? And obviously now, like, you know, it's become this big, you know, you
[1:12:51] know, influencer i- infused activity or me
[1:13:10] being in the city for the week, and
[1:13:18] it's an energy that actually will carry you through 26 miles. You can't muscle- Mm... through 26 miles, but in New York you can. Mm.
[1:13:34] 'Cause they just lift you up, and I think, um, the only thing I'll say is I'll never try and, like, race New York because- It's a lot of stimuli going on... uh, yeah, no. It's just also, it's a...
[1:13:34] Well, first of all, it's a very tough course. If you're gonna, like, try and PR, like, I wouldn't pick New York. I've got friends who have PR'd New York, and, like, fair play to them.
[1:13:34] You gotta be really strong on the hills and the bridges. But, like, you go see your buddies. If you drink, you crack a beer. If not- Mm...
[1:13:34] you crack a cadence, and then you have a slice of pizza on mile 12 at the Dirty Bird pop-up, and it's just, like, an energy where you just... Like, I don't... I wanna be out here for five hours.
[1:13:34] \[laughs\] Honestly, I don't wanna be- Yeah, yeah... I don't wanna be done in two and a half. I wanna be out here for five. So, um, my buddy this year did a reverse. You see that? No. Hercules.
[1:13:34] He r- he went to the start... He went to the finish line at 1:00 AM, ran to the start line, and then ran the marathon. \[laughs\] It's crazy. Holy shit. So he ran- He's a-... he ran 40 some or 50- He ran, he ran 80...
[1:13:34] He ran 84, 85K. Yeah. Yeah. Math isn't really Brayden's strong suit. I'm not good at math. So yeah, do the- That's not me... help me out with that, guys. \[laughs\] He ran two marathons. Yeah.
[1:13:34] Yeah, like, actually ran two marathons. And he also, like- Ran, like, 52 miles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't just, didn't just jog it. He just, like, he's r- I mean, he, he can run a t- he's a very fast marathoner. Wow.
[1:13:34] He just ran across Montenegro last month. He's done 150 miles in a day. Mm. He's, like, a... He works with us. He h- he heads up brand in the UK for us. Wow. Mm. He also happens to be, like, a top, top runner.
[1:13:34] Um, but he ran with his fiancée. But, you know, he does a lot of content, and it was kind of, like... went kind of viral online. He got a lot of hate for it, which is part of the...
[1:13:34] I mean, running's a funny sport, you know? It's like- Yeah, runners, there's an interesting group that runs, man. Interesting group. That's funny. Yeah. People need to just chill out a little bit.
[1:13:34] Yeah, people need to relax. I saw the...You've been posting some awesome vlogs on YouTube. I wanna know why. Hmm. As a founder, what is the point or what is the benefit of being forward-facing on YouTube?
[1:13:48] You don't have to. No. You could build Cadence without being a well-known founder. Yep. We see you doing it. We see George doing it. Why be forward-facing and create content and put your face out there? Um- Hmm...
[1:14:03] is it to have more of an impact? Like, what is the... Why, why do it if you don't have to? Honestly, um, I found it very hard in the beginning. Um, when...
[1:14:14] My last company, I pretty much didn't, showed nothing, and we did some cra- like, crazy stuff. Peter Thiel wrote my Series C term sheet on a private plane. Wow. Gave me $42 million on a flight from LA to San Francisco.
[1:14:27] Like, Peter Thiel, like, Gates straight was an investor. We threw the Coachella party, Justin Bieber. Like, we... I could have a bazillion YouTube view if I'd have documented that.
[1:14:34] \[laughs\] And there was a level of regret to that. Hmm. By the way, none of that created great business, so I'm just like, that doesn't mean we were, like, like, the... Un- fundamentally, that's not impressive.
[1:14:44] However, I've always been inspired personally as a consumer of founders that have documented their journey.
[1:14:50] George is a huge inspiration to me, and I'll tell him as my b- best buddy, like, he inspired me through his content. Starting Cadence, I understood the value it could create on a company through founder-led content.
[1:15:02] Um, so I wanted to take it on, and I built a small team around me to help me do that because fundamentally, when I wake up in the morning and I, I don't think about, "Oh, let me, like, think through the list of content."
[1:15:12] Like, "Almesh is tired. I need you to be my brain on this-" Yeah... 'cause I'm focused on X and Y. Like, we just talked about, like, operational sales strategies. Like, that gets me off.
[1:15:21] The other thing is, is I actually just feel hugely inspired by the fact that when I am 40, 50 years old, 60 years old, my daughter will watch this and be like, "Wow, my dad was a savage."
[1:15:34] \[laughs\] Imagine your dad built Red Bull- Yeah... and you could watch that. Um, so I got to watch my father, he was a super big inspiration to me, um, firsthand.
[1:15:44] But I think, um, I, I'm inspired that my daughter, who's now nearly two years old, when she's old enough to watch, will watch her dad build what will be the one of the biggest drinks companies in the world. It's amazing.
[1:15:56] You, um, you said a quote too. You said, uh, "My family gives me meaning, but purpose gives me direction." Mm-hmm. Can you tell us a little bit about what that quote means to you? Yeah.
[1:16:07] It kinda came off the back that I think, um... Huh. It's a, yeah, it's a, it's a good, it's a good one. They, they, they... That was an interesting quote. I think, um, you know, um,
[1:16:22] I think it's over-glorified to think that, um, balance and being, like, quote-unquote, I guess, happy all the time is really gonna be existence. I have everything going for me.
[1:16:34] I have a great business that I'm in love with. I have a wife and a daughter. But it does feel selfish that when I wake up in the morning, I think primarily about my work, you know, honestly.
[1:16:45] There's other, there's two other living beings in my life that I am fundamentally responsible for to some extent.
[1:16:50] My wife is a huge factor for my child, my, my daughter because she cares for her and she's a full-time mother. But, um, you know, when I wake up in the morning, I'm straight into the office. I'm working all day.
[1:17:01] I come home at night. I have my non-negotiables. I take her to the park at 3:30, non-negotiable, don't call me, phone is off, and I bath her at night. Like, that is the two moments in time.
[1:17:10] But work is just such a big part of my life, and it does make sh- it is fundamentally, again, the most important thing for the mission of the family.
[1:17:20] So I think that it's hard to find the balance, and I'm not balanced, but this is my version of balance. You know, like, 99% work, 1% here, half percent here, whatever the math's not mathing.
[1:17:34] But to go back to that, it came back from the fact that, like, maybe this is okay. Like, you know, maybe this is normal.
[1:17:40] And I think a lot of people, um, comment and be like, "Oh, you've got such a good balance," but, like, they don't see behind the curtain.
[1:17:46] I'm not necessarily this perfect guy who's, like, spending all their time with their family, or I'm in the gym enough or whatever.
[1:17:52] So yeah, I think that came from the fact that, like, it is hard to prioritize other things that could be prioritized when you're so focused on building such a great business.
[1:18:02] I wanna stay on this for just a sec because... So I just got engaged a few months ago. Congrats. Thank you. And I've always struggled with, like, I know I want a family, I know I want kids for sure.
[1:18:16] Having a kid or having multiple changes things a lot. Yeah.
[1:18:20] And as someone who, you know, we're building a podcast, I've, me and Brayden both have, like, big goals for ourselves and, and maybe things change, like, once you do have a kid and- Mm...
[1:18:30] and your priorities change and everything. But, like, I admire you because you are such a, like, from what I've seen, a- an amazing family man, but also, like, a fucking killer entrepreneur.
[1:18:43] And I think what I worry about is, like, once you do have a kid, it gets harder to do the business shit. Focus on, yeah, 100%. You're a selfish guy, and that's okay. Mm. Like, I, I am too. Um,
[1:18:58] you know, I always wanted kids. I want a kid. I grew up with two sisters, and I've always been inspired by, like, big families.
[1:19:03] I didn't have, like, a lot of, like, big family cousins and, like, and all that around me, but, like, I've always wanted that, and I always told myself the same story. Yeah.
[1:19:10] Like, you're telling yourself the story, like, "I can't have this if I have this," but, like, eh. Or like, I, I, I can't have a kid until, like- And so-... so and so is set up...
[1:19:20] but then, like, when you get so and so- Yeah... like, other problems and other goals exist. Like, it does, it's never ending. It's unstoppable, right? Mm-hmm. It's that big.
[1:19:27] It's like the unstoppable, "When I win my first, when I sell my first company, I'm just gonna..." Yeah. No, you're not, bro. \[laughs\] Yeah. I was in the hospital. My wife was five centimeters dilated.
[1:19:35] I signed, I signed the term sheet to sell my business.Wow. I was in the laptop in the corner. I'm like, "When it comes out, when she comes out, you, I got, I got you." But until then, like, I'm cranking.
[1:19:47] \[laughs\] That's the truth. Wow. And that's who I am. But also, my wife understood that's who I am. We didn't just, like- Mm... have a baby after meeting for a week, you know? We're like- Yeah... not in the NBA.
[1:19:56] So- \[laughs\] But, but anyway, all that being said is, um, there's truth to it, and I think it's okay. Mm. Honestly, you can't do it all, and that's the inconvenient truth.
[1:20:07] I think anyone who comes on here, and maybe people disagree and says, "No, you can do it all," you cannot be the best father in the world. You can be the best father you can be given your circumstances.
[1:20:17] And for me, the best father in my agreement with my wife, and I think it's important to have agreements 'cause I fucking hate expectations. Mm. Like, expectations are the worst thing.
[1:20:25] You could've come on here and be like, "I thought he would be great," but we had a call before, and we briefed, and we understood where the relationship was gonna be.
[1:20:31] My ex- my relationship with my wife is that, like, I'm gonna do this, you're gonna do this, and we are signing up for that as a joint business plan, all for the importance of my daughter. What did my daughter need?
[1:20:41] She needs certain things. We gotta pay for, you know, we gotta pay for shit. You know, that's the truth. And I think anyone who's like, "No, there's perfect balance," and all this stuff, it shouldn't be 50/50. Mm.
[1:20:50] My version of 50/50 is different. I don't do half the childcare and she does half the childcare 'cause I do... I don't do 50% of the work and she does 50% of the work.
[1:20:59] That's the agreement I have with my wife, and she's okay with that and I'm okay with that.
[1:21:02] So, I think to go back to it, when you do decide to have a kid, it's obviously with a partner that you've had a discussion with where you wanna be in life, where she wants to be in life.
[1:21:12] And I do think the inconvenient truth, and there's a podcast Stephen did with this amazing doctor and psychologist, and she talked about, like, the reality is, is, like, generally speaking, the father is less important to the newborn between the ages of one to three.
[1:21:25] Your job, the, the baby doesn't need two moms. Yeah. That's the truth.
[1:21:29] So I've allowed, my wife has allowed for us, and me, to focus on certain things that are gonna have longer term value for the family, and I know that come three, four years old, I'll be in a position where, yes, I can take 12 o'clock off because my...
[1:21:42] I've got a team of 200, and it's okay. I just gotta get there. Just gotta build that and keep going with that. What have, what have you noticed from having Stephen as an investor?
[1:21:50] As someone that I admire a lot, someone that I think we've watched, I've watched him grow. I've, uh, modeled certain things that we've done after him. What have you noticed from working around him? Mm.
[1:22:02] And we were up at his house the other day, and I think the one thing that Stephen has is an obsession around, uh, source of truth. So when he is...
[1:22:13] He's one of the best interviewers in the world, other than you guys, obviously. Um- We're second... but he will s- We're coming. \[laughs\] I mean, lo- watching the la... He will read books about- Mm... people.
[1:22:23] He'll read books about people who think ab- Like, he is so obsessed around the source of truth. So when I...
[1:22:28] I've spent time with him, you know, understanding how deep he goes into the individual that he is, um, interviewing.
[1:22:36] And not only that, the level of depth he goes into about what other people are saying or the c- uh, creator economy around the tags and the likes and the comments. So for example, there's a subject on electrolytes.
[1:22:50] He's gonna find out who the thought leader is on that. You know, he's so data obsessed. This guy is not opinion-based at all.
[1:22:56] He's so, he's so data obsessed, and just being able to see how his mind thinks about, um, the obsession over that source is, is amazing.
[1:23:04] And the level of depth he goes into the work he does and the team he has around him. I mean, you go up to his house, there's teams, ar- uh, armies on working on mini projects and sprints.
[1:23:12] It's like, it's, it's really impressive. Uh, he's a super impressive guy. And the other thing I'll say is he gives you his time. Mm. He'll sit there, and his phone, I mean, I see it, his phone is going... bzz,
[1:23:26] See, people's names that I'm like, "You should barely pick that up. That guy was in the White House not too long ago." And he's got you. He's locked in. No problem.
[1:23:34] If you, he's, if you've got his time, you've got his time. And I find that extremely respectful because he's not like, "Oh yeah, no, bro, that sounds really great." And, um,
[1:23:43] and that's something that I, I, I'm like, wow, if he can do that, and I've seen what, you know, people... Mr. Beast calling him back, Obama's calling him. It's crazy.
[1:23:50] And he's, like, locked in, and I find that, like, honestly, that's pretty s- that's pretty sick. Wow. That's crazy. That's awesome.
[1:23:57] Is there something, is there somebody else maybe similar to Stephen who you've been fortunate enough to spend some time around that you've learned- Mm...
[1:24:04] quite a bit from or that you admire that you're like, "I wanna bring this into my life"? \[sighs\] Um, yeah. I, through the last company raised, uh, from some great investors.
[1:24:17] You know, um, raised from, like, founder of Starbucks. Um, we raised from, uh, obviously Peter Thiel, and raised from Dan Sondheim, which is one of the best hedge fund managers probably to ever live.
[1:24:28] So just being able to spend time around them, whether it's in board meetings or whether it's just on offsite, um, just two, three hours can be life-changing. The way they think, the way they operate. Um, I think, um,
[1:24:42] you know, without sounding cliché, I'm hugely inspired by my father. He's taught me a lot. You know, he had a, a modest business growing up. Never, you know,
[1:24:50] changed the world or anything, but I had a lot of aspiration when I grew up. I got to see him build a company from one person to five people to 10 people, in a very different industry.
[1:24:59] But, like, used to take the bus after school and sit in his office, and, like, his office was, like, half this size, and then it got a little bit bigger, and then it became the size of this home.
[1:25:06] And I was like, wow, like, that's pretty cool. And, like, always on, like, always in his team. He used to sit right in the middle of the office, no corner office bullshit.
[1:25:15] And, uh, that definitely ingrained a lot in me, in how he deals with people and, um, how he likes to think about, like, success. It's always been super inspirational.
[1:25:23] So I think, like, just the amount of time I've spent with him has been probably the biggest impact on my life. Was he always, like, working with his team? Did you notice that? Yeah.
[1:25:30] He was always, like, in the weeds with them. Yeah, he was in recruitment, so it's a very, like, sales personal- Mm... um, you know, very hands-on business. Um, but it was from... He really...
[1:25:38] I'm from a, from a small town in a small country. I'm from Glasgow in Scotland, which isn't like... The average income is $21,700.That's the average. So it's not like... No one's making six figures a year.
[1:25:49] That doesn't exist. So everything in relative terms, if your business does a million a year, that was like, you're wow, like fucking, you know, like \[laughs\] You know, he dropped off in a Volvo to school.
[1:26:00] \[laughs\] If someone turns up in a BMW, it's like, what the hell? Mm-hmm. So that's just... I wanna just share that light, but what didn't change is like, um, how he handled people and how he, um...
[1:26:13] what he looked for when he was hiring, and the level. It's just, like, that's instilled in me, for sure.
[1:26:17] I also played sports, so, like, coaches that I've had in my life have definitely shaped my, shaped my opinion on, like, you know, um, working hard and all that stuff.
[1:26:25] But huge, huge amount of pattern recognition in this game, honestly. Um, and I think just surrounding yourself with the right people is definitely the best thing to do. Have you gamified business?
[1:26:35] Do you feel like you look at it as a game? Totally. Mm-hmm. What are some of those key things that you've noticed? Like, what are some of those patterns that you can instill to someone listening to this?
[1:26:47] Depends on the business, honestly. Okay. Um, within, within my category, there's definitely, there's definitely patterns, and they're evolving over time as, like, consumers' habits change, for sure.
[1:26:57] So I, I might not be able to give, like, key specific points. Um, but I have gamified it. Ev- everything... I'm playing the game.
[1:27:05] Like, I'm fully aware of it, and I'll play the game as long as I need to play the game until I don't need to play the game. Um- Do you think you would be able to do that? Like, do you think- Not play the game?
[1:27:12] Yeah, with your brain. \[laughs\] Do you feel like you'd be able to not play the game, and just get out and be like... No. Yeah, you don't think so. No. I don't think I could either. No, definitely not.
[1:27:19] I mean, I would like to, uh, not be a CEO forever- Yeah... to be honest with you. Um, I mean, I enjoy the brand side. Like, chief brand officer would be amazing. Um, right now, that's, we're just not there yet, you know?
[1:27:31] And, um, I take a lot...
[1:27:32] Like, even George, for example, we've talked about him a lot, but, like, CEO founder for 15 years or 14 years, and then he builds a team, and now he's, you know, creative director because that's what he does.
[1:27:41] He's, like, in the fabrics and the design, photography, and art direction, creative direction. Like, does he want to build the P&L? No. Um, so, like, I love...
[1:27:51] I think a great founder knows what rooms they don't need to be, heck, what tables they don't need to be in all the time, and then they put a person in that position who can execute on that.
[1:27:59] And I think for me, I would love to continue to be building businesses in consumer space.
[1:28:03] I don't think there's anything more inspirational when you see someone use your product or there's a feedback that is positive on your product. Like, it hits every time.
[1:28:10] I could land a massive store today, doesn't really get me hard.
[1:28:14] When I see a customer being like, "This helped me with my marathon, bro, I'm bugging, let's go," \[laughs\] 'cause I know, like, it's just, like, I don't know, it just, like, hits different for me.
[1:28:23] But running the day-to-day business, honestly, I think this is my last time. Mm. It's funny, we, we say that about the pod. Like, we'll get messages online, and it's fucking awesome any time you get a message.
[1:28:37] If you get someone you know who's like, "Yo, that was a sick episode"- Yeah... or, "I'm actually listening," hits different. Yeah.
[1:28:42] You see them in person, if you meet someone, they're like, "I love your pod," I'm like, "Holy shit"- Yeah, yeah, yeah... "you're real, man." Yeah, yeah. It's not... This isn't just, like, a comment online.
[1:28:48] I do read them. And it's kinda, it's kinda hard to... It's like you see the numbers online, and
[1:28:54] it's cool 'cause, like, they're going up and maybe you hit different milestones and stuff, but it can be hard to, like, internalize it of, like, well, that's kind of a lot of people watching every episode or every week- Yeah...
[1:29:04] every month. But yeah, sometimes it can hit different if it's in person or if it's, like, a close buddy. Makes my whole fucking day if I meet someone in person. 100%. It's the craziest thing.
[1:29:12] I'm sure seeing it out in public, you're like, "Yo," \[laughs\] Yeah, it's crazy. I was, like, in Brooklyn a couple weeks ago with my wife, and we're, like, pushing...
[1:29:18] and my daughter, uh, for whatever reason, she like now, like, 'cause we have, like, the fridges in the house and the Cadence fridges, she's like, "Cadence." She's only nearly two.
[1:29:26] She doesn't really speak so- It's her first words. \[laughs\] But bro, I swear to God, there was a guy with a water bottle, like, in the line for coffee, and she's like, "Cadence."
[1:29:34] \[laughs\] And I'm like, "Wait," and I was like, "No way, that's crazy." Wow. It was, like, a really cool moment, like, right outside, like, where- Did she go up to him? Did she? No, he was, like, in my arms. Oh, okay.
[1:29:43] Yeah, yeah. She, like, goes in to ask him? Yeah. It's kinda cool. So I don't know how, I mean, it must be, like, the white, the logo- Yeah... like, the white space. She had the...
[1:29:49] I mean, it was also, like, this far away, but- That's so cool... um, and then, yeah, we just see it all the time. Like, upstate New York, there's a...
[1:29:54] Like, my friend will send me a picture of, like, you know, you're upstate New York, three hours in Hudson, and the barista- Mm... has a Cadence water bottle.
[1:30:02] And I'm like, "Wow, that's, like, uh, that's kinda crazy to me"- Yeah... you know? Um, but we, we do have a mission, and I think the goal for the company is to, to be as ubiquitous as a Red Bull can. Mm. You know?
[1:30:12] I like it. I wanna, I wanna that. If you were able to talk to a founder or if a founder is listening to this, and, you know, they're doing a million, maybe a few million dollars a year,
[1:30:21] what are, like, those mindset shifts a founder needs to have to be able to scale 10 million plus? Mm.
[1:30:30] Mindset shift, I think the, uh, to go back to the very first question, I think it's really important to ident- \[laughs\] to identify the three to six things that are company changing. Mm.
[1:30:39] You don't need to get every decision right. Heck, if you get 50%, you're probably on your, you know, it's probably a good odds.
[1:30:45] Three to six things that are gonna fundamentally change the outcome of the business from a, a size of the prize perspective, and that's all you should hone in on, because, like, one to 10 million is kind of this gray zone of, like, you've really not made it out yet.
[1:30:59] Even 10 million, you've really not made it out yet \[laughs\], you know? But, like, the things that you deal with every day as a founder, because your team at, like, one to $2 million is probably one to three people.
[1:31:08] It's probably not more than that, I don't imagine. So you're doing everything, and you can't really get out of the way. You're dealing with the lawyers on the IP contract manufacturing agreement.
[1:31:16] You're dealing with the co-man, and you're not an expert on product or liquid, but you're doing that, too, and you're probably doing the social media, and you've heard about this paid ad thing, so you gotta do that, too, and you can't afford to hire the agency that everyone's talking about.
[1:31:25] Yeah. So you're like, "Oh, shit, and I should be on Amazon too," or, "Fuck it, we'll buy an Amazon agency." So you're doing all this stuff, but, like, my advice is, like, create measurable outcomes for all these things.
[1:31:36] If I do this right, it's gonna be worth this. It's gonna take up this much time, and it can be done in this amount of time.
[1:31:42] And identify those three things, probably channel strategy, product, et cetera.And take away the bottom 70%. And just be like, "We'll do that." Because they're not gonna be as impactful to the company.
[1:31:53] And focus on those one, two, three things, get those right, and you'll get to the next stage.
[1:31:59] And at the next stage you can hire people, you can raise money, and you'll get those other 70% of things that are rounding errors to the business if you get the one, two, three right. I'm massively...
[1:32:07] Uh, I think that's the biggest thing a founder can do. Last one. What were those top three for Cadence? What were the top three in your opinion? Um,
[1:32:16] it's, for us it's distribution, it's stores, which ones we're focused on, which ones we're not, uh, and innovation.
[1:32:22] So we've kind of halted innovation as the company because we've got quite horizontally ambitious about the portfolio. We're ready to drink, ready to mix and other, and we have the balance sheet to launch 50 new flavors.
[1:32:33] Honestly, we could launch 20 new flavors, we could do it, and I know they'd be successful, but we said, "Okay, stop. What's the most important thing for the company?
[1:32:40] Let's get each one of these SKUs to 100 million until we launch another flavor." And until we get there, we haven't unlocked the ability to do X.
[1:32:46] And we probably will before, but as a general purpose, I'm saying that needs to be in... I need 2% to 5% of America to have tried that can before I launch orange soda. Mm-hmm. You know? I love it.
[1:32:57] That's basically my thesis. I love it. This has been such a fun episode. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been episode 183 with Ross McCabe.
[1:33:03] If you're still here, please hit the subscribe button, drop us a comment, leave us a like, and we'll see you guys all next week. Peace. PPD. Some people say they just come for this part.
[1:33:11] That's what a lot of people are saying. Yeah. So speed. Gotta be fast. Gotta be fast. Gotta be f- 3.840. That's quick. Yeah. That's what pe- that's what Ross is running at. Yeah.
[1:33:19] I mean, he's making five decisions in the car before we hit record. He made a few decisions sitting on the couch right there. \[laughs\] Yeah. He's like, "We're gonna pause the pod." Yeah. "Gotta make this call." Mm-hmm.
[1:33:29] He didn't do that, but he could've. Could've if he wanted to. I would've respected it. I would've been like, "Okay, game is game. What are we making a decision on?"
[1:33:36] \[laughs\] Can we, can we make a dec- can we help make a decision? What do you need help with? Yeah. Where can we take this? Yeah. You know what? Actually, we had some thoughts, Ross.
[1:33:43] After talking to you, we had some thoughts about Cadence. I will say, and I, I feel like I say this after a ton of our episodes- Okay... but this truly was one of my favorites. It was great.
[1:33:53] It was a, it was a master class in building a very successful CPG brand. I mean, he's exited before from Daring, so it was so interesting to hear, like, what he's taking into this new venture.
[1:34:04] Uh, this is something that him and George Heaton co-founded. Yeah. And just to see all of the decisions that go into sipping the liquid that was on the table, it's- And it was really good. Very good. Very good.
[1:34:16] I loved the flavor that I spilled all over myself. Yeah. It was fantastic. A lot of spillage this episode. We had a lot of spillage going on. Yeah. Low scores in the corner. \[laughs\] Dude.
[1:34:25] Ross thought it was gonna be easy. Yeah. You know what's also interesting is he made it seem like he kind of got lucky with Daring Foods in a way. Like, with right time. Right t- like, COVID hit, it was frozen food.
[1:34:40] Mm-hmm. It just so happened that it took off, but I don't think he gives himself enough credit. Like, I, he's f- smart, dude. So, he j- he's so smart. He's so dialed on just the details that go into this stuff.
[1:34:53] It's not just like, "Oh, is the liquid good?" It's- Yeah... it's like the world. It's the world that he's building. It's the YouTube channel. And I, I wanna say, too, this is really interesting.
[1:35:01] I just found him through, like, Cadence through YouTube. Mm.
[1:35:06] That's how I got exposed to the brand, and I think it shows the importance of founder-led content, how important YouTube is, and it's why after our trip to Hong Kong, like, we are starting, we started a second YouTube channel.
[1:35:16] Yeah. Specifically for the case that if you just come to the show and hang out with us here, you only get... Dude, you only get the PPD to really get to know us. I know. You only get the PPD.
[1:35:26] I mean, I don't wanna take away from this time. Yeah. I wanna add more to this time. Yeah. And it's so funny 'cause, um, after the episode, I was... My wheels were turning. Wheels were turning.
[1:35:38] And I'm like, "I gotta make, I gotta make something. I need to, I want an exit." Gotta build. You know? Gotta build something. So we've been, we've been, \[laughs\] we've been flying, dude.
[1:35:49] But just know, dude, whether it's, whether it's the thing that me and Brayden are gonna do together that we're super excited about, we're not ready to, to talk about it yet. But I also have some ideas.
[1:36:00] I, like, I know you wanna get into beverage. I, I kinda came up- Would have been so good... with an idea for a beverage myself.
[1:36:05] But after hearing, like, Christian Guzman and him talk about, like, how hard it is and how much time and effort you actually have to put into a beverage brand, like- It's gotta be, it's gotta be your thing.
[1:36:15] It's gotta be like- Yeah... that, that has gotta be the thing. What I also thought was really interesting that Ross talked about was it's like you're solving a problem that you have. Yes.
[1:36:24] It's like a lot of the s- the start of an entrepreneur's journey is- Yeah... looking at your life and thinking about, like, what are the super annoying problems you wanna solve, right?
[1:36:33] Whether looking at the lights that are in this room, I'm assuming the founders of these lights were like, "I think we can make a better light that does X- Yeah... Y, and Z."
[1:36:39] I think that I can make a better beverage that is, tastes better- Yeah... is more functional, has better ingredients in it, whatever, more caffeine, whatever the heck the thing may be.
[1:36:48] So for many of you listening to this right now, you probably have an idea that bothers you.
[1:36:53] There's something out there in your life, whether it be a shoe on your feet, pants, shirt, you know, a software that you think can make your life easier.
[1:37:01] Lean into those things and I bet you, you might, you know, one of the biggest companies in the world might be listening to this right now.
[1:37:07] I mean, you think about all the most successful, biggest brands, they all solve a problem, and I think, like, we all dream about making this, like, massive company, and you're like, "Okay, what's the fucking idea?"
[1:37:18] And it doesn't come from you sitting down and being like, "I'm going to right now think of a billion-dollar brand idea." It come, it's gonna come one day and be like, this doesn't exist out there.
[1:37:33] He said the hydration beverage for, or the performance... Like, Cadence didn't, it didn't, uh, it didn't exist and he needed it.
[1:37:43] It was like he was trying to find it and he was trying to fuel himself after these workouts. It didn't exist, so he went out to go make it. Like- With lo- with no sugar. Yeah.
[1:37:51] It doesn't, that doesn't happen if he's just like, "Hmm."Like if, if he's not in the culture of working out and running, like he doesn't come up with the idea for Cadence. Without a doubt.
[1:38:01] I, I thought something that was also really interesting, he talked about like getting outside of his bubble and like making a product that's not just for Los Angeles- Yes... or New York City.
[1:38:09] Ross is not just thinking about a product that would land here. It's like what could the entire US consume, and what would they enjoy, and what's a price point that could stick?
[1:38:17] It's not gonna be probably like that $4 price point that we're so used to seeing in these convenience stores out here, which is ridiculous. He went, "We gotta make them two bucks again. Everything should be two bucks.
[1:38:27] Every drink." You go to the Alfred's that we live right down the street from, $7 for a medium iced coffee, $6 if you don't choose to do the cold foam, and I've almost just kinda gotten used to that.
[1:38:40] And what's messed up about that is now I'm like, "Man, $5 for an iced coffee sounds pretty good." But like I specifically remember, bro,
[1:38:49] a time when Starbucks was 2.75 for a medium co- or grande cold brew, iced cold brew. And then I remember the day I went, and it went up to 3.25, and I remember that because I was like, "Oh my God, it's no longer two.
[1:39:05] It's in the threes." I'm like, "Man, things are getting expensive." And then something happened with minimum wage, and then Starbucks, I went again, and it was like $5 for an iced coffee.
[1:39:14] And I'm like, "Dude, what are we doing? So expensive." You've lived through so many moments in history like that. I know, dude. I'm so old, dude. \[laughs\] It's crazy. I feel like a dinosaur.
[1:39:22] But things are getting expensive. Um, and, and you kinda get kind of used to it because you live in LA, and it just kinda becomes the norm. And like you think about that that is just so not the case everywhere else.
[1:39:36] It's outra- it's outrageous is what it is. And I think, uh, something interesting too, if you looked at like all the cans, if you looked at... Take out something interesting.
[1:39:46] If you look at all of the cans on a wall, and you stick his beverage on- Sexy... it's beautiful. Yeah. Feels good in the hand. It's pretty. It's a pretty can, very photogenic. Yeah.
[1:39:57] It stands out, and it, and it's, uh, it's a marketing tool itself. You see it, like we talked about it on the flat lays of people going to do their marathons. It's like that's a, that's now part...
[1:40:07] It's, it's the watch, the shoes, the socks, and then boom, it's the gels and the drink. Yeah. Ooh, I loved this. We even put this in the PPD.
[1:40:16] Talking about the price point of the can and being able to have more products in your ecosystem 'cause you have these different like you... Okay, you have like Target or something is not just buying that can. Mm-hmm.
[1:40:27] You're also getting the gels or the, the salt, um- Yeah... you know what I'm talking about? Those little pouches things. You're able to make more on those than you are on the beverage 'cause the weight- Yes...
[1:40:37] and all that stuff. So it's interesting to have like different product SKUs in your arsenal to where when you're going to those stores, you can, in theory, you can make less on your actual can.
[1:40:46] You're making it back on the revenue that you're getting from like the pouches or from the gels 'cause it's so much cheaper to make those.
[1:40:54] And like he was telling us about that, so that's a really interesting strategy where a lot of brands are just like, "Oh, it's just the canned beverage." Yeah. They're not going into these other different items.
[1:41:01] And so, you know, you can afford to potentially make a little bit less on the price of said can 'cause you're gonna get it back on another product that's gonna be in the same vicinity or in that, in that same ecosystem for your brand.
[1:41:14] But the, but the can is the main thing- For sure, yes... around the brand. Definitely, yeah. That's what- And, and you-... that's what, that's what people know it as... and you start with one, and then you build out.
[1:41:22] 'Cause he probably, when he was thinking about, uh, you know, Cadence as a brand, he was probably having all these ideas of like, "Oh, we could make this and this and this."
[1:41:31] But he's like, "Let's just start with the can, and then as we get the liquid down and we start having traction, we can introduce other things and other flavors as well." You think Ross goes to bed at, like, 8:00 PM?
[1:41:42] He's going, he's gonna be up at like 4:30, man. Respect. I thought what he said was very interesting. He's like, "If I want to train and go on a four-hour run," he's like, "it has to be on my time."
[1:41:55] He's like, "I'm not-" To not impact the- "I'm not gonna impact... Like, I wanna spend time with my daughter.
[1:41:59] I wanna be present, and there's things that I need to do for my business and also for my family, that if I wanna be selfish and have me time, I'm just gonna have to wake up a little bit earlier."
[1:42:09] And I honestly respect it, and it just kinda scares me because I'm like- Oh, you think you-... I'm not a 4:00 AM kinda guy, but do I have to become that when, you know, we eventually start having kids? Oh, my God.
[1:42:22] Isn't that kinda scary? The thought of 4:00 AM makes me wanna, like, bash my head against a wall. Yeah. Getting up at 4:00 AM. That's what time my dad gets up, dude. I don't even know what you guys- Dude, same.
[1:42:32] What do you do at 4:00 AM? What's up with our dads getting up at 4:00 AM? \[laughs\] Dude, my dad doesn't even wake up with an alarm. It's just like they levitate at 4:00 AM, bro. Yeah.
[1:42:39] Anyone over the age of 60, these dads just like- Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah... they just come to life at 4:00 AM. Yeah. It's like Dracula. \[laughs\] They just pop up, pop up out of bed. It's the craziest shit.
[1:42:47] Maybe that's what it is. Maybe you become a dad, and you're like, okay, you know, you're already getting trained for it. You have no sleep for that first little period of time. Yeah. Just lock in.
[1:42:54] Um, back to the can and how it looks, there's a, uh, there's a detergent that we started buying. Oh. And it looks completely different. I forget the freaking name of it. We're not plugging them for free, bro.
[1:43:10] No, no, no, not, definitely not. But then I was thinking about... So, like, their whole marketing thing is that it's, it's not toxic. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah.
[1:43:18] But it looks real sexy, and it looks like something that I would take a photo of and post it on my story. It's like an aluminum can, solid matte color. It looks really sexy, and that's like another example of these...
[1:43:33] There's so many brands out there and so many industries that just haven't been disrupted, and they all look the exact same. Oh, yeah. Keep going.
[1:43:40] If you, like, healthify it, and then you make it look fancy and sexy, I feel like both of those are just, it's like a recipe for success, which is exactly what, uh, Ross did with Cadence.
[1:43:51] What is the brand, this is what I'm trying to look up, of the hand sanitizer? ASAP? No. No, no, no. It's, like, Touch Free or something.Touchland Okay How much did Touchland sell for? Okay.
[1:44:06] On the topic of what you were just saying, this hand sanitizer brand, if- it was always Purell, like since I was like a- Yes... a young kid, right?
[1:44:13] It was like Purell, and then maybe Bath & Body Works had some like hand sanitizers, but really it was Purell, right? You looked at all the different sanitizers, the same couple brands.
[1:44:23] Touch- Touchland came out with like, "Oh, this is like kind of a cuter little, little thing," and it's like the... it looks a little bit more premium. You know which one I'm talking about? I literally have it in my bag.
[1:44:31] Do you have a photo of it? Yeah. It's r- You just pulled it up. I do, I do, just pulled it up. It's that, those ones. Oh, now that... Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
[1:44:39] They, \[laughs\] they sold for 880 million this year. Wow. It's just hand sanitizer. There's really nothing different. They changed the packaging of it. They changed the look and feel of it.
[1:44:49] That's another thing that from everyone that we've talked to on the show that's a very successful entrepreneur, many of them really...
[1:44:55] Like Ross's, Ross reinvented what he wanted, uh, out of like the, the beverage space, but it's, it's still a drink. It's not like it's, it's n- Sure... you know what I'm saying? It's still a drink, right?
[1:45:04] It's a beverage. Many of the really massive companies that we see aren't like magical ideas that no one's ever thought of before. Yeah. It's like a little twist on something that already exists- Mm-hmm...
[1:45:16] and making it more either for them, like that's a, that's a cooler looking hand sanitizer. It's still hand sanitizer. It still does- Yeah... the same thing that all the other brands are still doing.
[1:45:24] Maybe it smells a little bit different. Mm-hmm. And d- like you don't have to reinvent the wheel to go make something great is where I was going with that. 100%.
[1:45:31] And he talked about he's kinda going after Gatorade, right? Yeah, he wants- Or like Red Bull. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:45:37] Like, he wants to make something that big, and right now you look at Cadence and they're doing very well, but it's like a drop in the bucket in comparison to what the Goliath of Gatorade is doing.
[1:45:51] I have no doubt in my mind that he will get to that like billion dollar plus, uh, marker. But I, I think there's, there's like so much opportunity out there and so much of...
[1:46:07] Like, a little part of that pie is still so much money.
[1:46:12] And so just because one person is doing it or there's one brand out there doesn't mean that you can't go out there and do something similar, change things up, change up the branding, um, and your positioning slightly, and like still have major success.
[1:46:27] 2026, I think, or 2025 has shown, especially in like the women's fashion, the huge players, the Lulus, the Alo's- Yeah... you had all the littler brands taking market share. Those littler brands were- Yeah...
[1:46:40] coming in and taking 10 million here, 10 million here, $50 million here, $100 million here. We see them on our street, bro. Yeah. They pop up. Those legging brands, they pop up. They can compete.
[1:46:52] It's no longer just like you're having to have, oh, if it's not the biggest and the best thing, like- Yeah... consumers are spreading out. It's not, and it's no longer like, "Oh, I only buy said brand." And I also think
[1:47:05] it- I think. What do you think? Or what's your thoughts on that? It- Do you only buy... Like what, like are you loyal to any direct brand? I, dude, I literally bought, for example, i- I drink yerba mate every day.
[1:47:16] I could totally be persuaded to buy a different drink because of a healthier provision, and I got the new Liquid Death drink that's like, it's just to try it out, just to, just to see- So-...
[1:47:25] if it's legit, if it tastes good. I'll tell you guys if I think it's trash or not... I think that we're seeing a, a major shift in,
[1:47:33] like obviously creator-led businesses are becoming, and, and like forward-facing founders, it's becoming like a real thing. I think that like the opportunity didn't really exist 20 years ago.
[1:47:46] Like, social media has made it to where anyone can build a brand and, and create a story around a product and really market it and like actually go up against these like major brands.
[1:48:00] I, I bet you, for example, his co-founder, George Heaton, made 247 Athletic Wear. I'm more tempted to go buy
[1:48:11] running shorts and a top from 247 because I resonate with that more so than like this giant Nike thing. It almost am like I resonate more with George Heaton and Ross McKay than I do with LeBron. You know what I'm saying?
[1:48:28] So like I would rather go \[laughs\] like- \[laughs\] No, seriously. No, no, I know, I know. I know. I just wasn't expecting you to say LeBron. I thought you were gonna say like Phil Knight at first- No, okay, sure...
[1:48:37] and then you just, you just dropped, you just dropped \[laughs\] LeBron. LeBron. I was like- Like they're, they're athletes. No, I know, I know, I know, I know.
[1:48:43] Um- I feel like, you know, I kinda like do have some reservation, you know. Yeah. Okay. Work- we worked at the same company. Yeah, I get it. I get it. Um- So co- we were coworkers...
[1:48:50] you guys did completely different things. We both impacted the court- So different... on the bottom, bottom line. So \[laughs\] different. So different, dude. What is... Uh, stakeholder value, man.
[1:49:02] We were, we were bringing that to the table. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Both of us. Him a little bit more than you. \[laughs\] What I'm saying though is I don't think that happened before. Like- No.
[1:49:12] Because of social media, that's a thing... like I don't know if Ross can, could have built Cadence
[1:49:20] 20 years ago because like the distribution of content, um, distribution of like getting the, the drink in, you know, in stores is, is one thing, but like getting the message and building the brand and like creating a movement, it really, it's not possible like it is today.
[1:49:40] Without the, yeah, without the internet. Yeah.
[1:49:42] And so that's why I think that like you are gonna see a lot more of these brands start popping up and taking real market share from these big companies because I think the big companies still are thinking like, "Ah, these are just like these little brands," and like we've been-...
[1:49:58] crushing it for the past couple of decades I think if anything, the end of this year and the, uh, reports from the publicly traded brands that have come out- Oh... has, has shown that they- Yeah...
[1:50:08] need to be weary of what the littler brands are doing. Would you agree, though? Would you say that you're- I, dude, I literally went and bought Represent for the first time ever because I enjoy his vlogs. Yeah.
[1:50:22] Um, n- not because of any other reason. I didn't see... I've, I personally really haven't seen many people buy Represent. You're the first person, honestly, that I ever saw wear it.
[1:50:30] Yeah, because I, you know- You put me on. You're in front of culture. Yeah. That's one, that's literally the- I'm, I'm in front of culture...
[1:50:35] I was thinking about the only thing you might have been in front of me on, and it might have just been that. I set trends. You did also- I'm a trend setter... you also put me onto Kith. I love- Oh.
[1:50:45] Yeah, I just re- Okay... I just- Keep going. What else? I think those are the only two things. Oh, dude. But yeah. But those are life-changing things. \[laughs\] Those two- You know?
[1:50:53] Think about how different your life is- You said, you told me-... since, since I came into it... you told me my hat's a little dirty, so I'm gonna have to get a, I'll have to retire this hat.
[1:50:59] You guys seen Fig's brown hat? It used to be black. Um, but yeah, man. I, you know what? It's, it's very interesting, though, and it, it's so- Hmm... it's so crazy 'cause I, I have one Represent hoodie- Mm-hmm...
[1:51:11] and I want another one, and it's this sick cobalt blue color, and I was wearing it earlier today, and I realized that when I had it on- Hmm... it, it's so silly, but I'm like, I put it on, I'm like
[1:51:23] kind of feeling like George Clooney. \[laughs\] You know? Seriously. I'm like, dude, am I ripped? \[laughs\] You know, am I ripped? Am I swaggy? Like- Mm-hmm... I'm in my Jeep, but it's looking like a Range Rover.
[1:51:35] Could, could... \[laughs\] No, it could be. \[laughs\] That's what I was gonna say. You know? You just transform. That's so funny. Different than when I'm wearing my, my, uh, blank heather gray Abercrombie hoodie.
[1:51:46] It's a little different. Yeah. It's a little different. Dude, it's a m- Not as sick... it's the power of, uh, f- power of founder-led content. Dude, come on. Come on, dude. Come on.
[1:51:53] Hope you guys have really been enjoying the... Did you, can you figure that out? Brother, it's on do not disturb. It's obviously not. My fiance just comes through- It's obviously not... regardless. Oh, I see. Okay. Okay.
[1:52:04] Uh, the PBDs have been so fun, and wanna shout all of you out who have been commenting on all of the pods because it's so... Oh my God, it makes our day. Makes our day to see the comments.
[1:52:17] You guys are so kind, uh, with just supporting us and sharing this with your buddies. Just know that none of it's possible without you guys helping us out and doing, doing this whole thing with us.
[1:52:28] Or if you're a Spotify-only listener, know we like you a little bit less, but we'd really appreciate a review. I mean, we don't make a cent off Spotify. \[laughs\] Just know that we love you a little bit less- Yeah...
[1:52:37] and it's all good. We love you. Still love you, just a little bit less than the YouTube squad, but really appreciate a review. How is our Hong Kong vlog coming? Oh my God, it's so sick.
[1:52:47] Are you past just the intro at all? Yeah. I've act- I, so I didn't actually like go in and cut it. I've, I've went through... It's a little bit of an interesting process.
[1:52:54] I've went into all the clips and just like chopped the, chopped the heads and the tails off, so it's like, okay, that's- I see... that's what I'm gonna use.
[1:53:00] And like going in, I'm probably like a quarter of the way through like all of those clips. It's a lot of footage, but it's so fun. Yeah. You guys, the, the first 15 seconds, it's gonna get you fired up. Oh, dude.
[1:53:12] God, it's gonna get you fired up. I got, I got really fired up. Did you get goosebumps when you saw it, where you're like, "This is it. This is..." Yeah. Was that kinda like in your head what was going on?
[1:53:19] I was kinda like, "Uh, we're Himi." We're there. Yeah. Yeah, we're there. The first vlog ever is- Do you know how long I've wanted to be like a YouTuber- I know... where it's like, "Gotta do it"? This is our big break.
[1:53:28] This is our big break. The first vlog ever is- \[laughs\] It's our big break... is going with Daniel Dailen to China to visit factories, and it was such a fun, such a fun experience, and that's- Yeah...
[1:53:38] gonna be our first vlog. And the second one we think will be like just the overall Hong Kong trip as a whole. Each of those vlogs, though, are not gonna be just like, "Oh, hey, look how, look what we're doing."
[1:53:49] We're gonna try to make them very value packed, so like every week we'll have a theme, potentially, you know, maybe call some rocks in on the show to help us, you know, with answering questions and whatnot.
[1:54:00] Uh, you should send me a one-handed crack that's not embarrassing on Instagram that I can rate at the very- Oh, I like that... at the very end. It's gonna go in every single vlog.
[1:54:08] I feel like it should go kind of like at the beginning. Okay. You're just- Or somewhere in the middle... sh- just shaking it. Oh, you want it to go at the end? No, you're just shaking your head up. We can go at the end.
[1:54:15] It's just fine. Oh, also, thank you very much to everybody that bought, um- Oh, the personal brand- The Profitable Personal Brand Playbook... I forgot the name of it. Profitable Personal Brand Playbook.
[1:54:25] Try saying that 10 times fast. We appreciate you guys. That was, uh, that was epic. That directly goes and helps us like go travel and whatnot, so if you're thinking about copping it, it's down in the description.
[1:54:33] If you DM me and you're from YouTube only, not the Spotify group, I will happily, I'll give you 10 bucks off. Oh, hell yeah. If you, if you DM. You gotta be subscribed, though, on YouTube. Yeah.
[1:54:41] It's not, uh, not doing that, so that's- Send a screenshot of the subscribe and then say- Not for-... "Fig, I'd like $10 off." Not for the Spotify folks. No. No, no, no, no. Can't do it. Can't do it. Just can't do it.
[1:54:50] That's where I draw the line. Yeah. Yeah, this has been, this has been so fun. What are we... What else is going on? Is there anything else we have to update them on? Holidays are coming. Holidays are coming.
[1:54:59] Did a little black- Trying to stay, trying to stay consistent with the pod as we go into the holidays, 'cause we got a lot of travel coming up.
[1:55:06] Um, but we have some very exciting stuff that we will talk about in a few episodes, because 2026 is gonna be epic, and we have some really fun things coming, and I'm stoked. Let's go. Let's keep it rolling.
[1:55:19] Oh, okay, also, if anyone's an audio engineer in the, in the, in the group- Oh, dude... okay, we gotta tell you guys about, this is actually insane. So this is our beautiful set, right? We finished the set.
[1:55:28] Looks amazing. The other day we come here to record, put the headphones on, sounds horrible. \[laughs\] Literally horrendous, like a little baby squirrel. Don't do it anymore. That's what it sounded like.
[1:55:37] That's what it sounded like. It was horrendous. We couldn't record. We're like, "What the heck is going on?" We moved the mic closer to the wall, and then we're like, it gets worse close to the wall. We walk outside.
[1:55:47] Of course, the breaker to the whole entire home is on the back of this wall, which is so epic for us. Then we come back today, nothing changed. Nothing in the home changed.
[1:55:56] The, like AC wasn't on, like that wasn't on, and now it sounds perfectly fine. Why is that a thing? I don't know. We think we might have to order this special paint called EMF paint. We bought, we bought...
[1:56:07] No, we bought it. It's like $300.
[1:56:09] Okay, so we did buy it, and we're thinking we're gonna have to take down all of the, that we're gonna have to take down these wood panels, paint the wall, and then use a grounding kit, whatever the F that is- Get electricity-...
[1:56:20] ground it... ground it. Send all that frequency down to the ground... and then put the boards back up. But yeah, it was...
[1:56:27] We just got very lucky that it didn't happen when we had a guest, but when I tell you that we were over here for, I think, six and a half hours trying to record something, and it was one of the most miserable, frustrating days of my entire life, because we were like, "I just wanna record.
[1:56:43] We don't understand what's wrong." And then we figured out that it was wrong, and then when we...
[1:56:49] And then we recorded, and it sounded terrible in our headphones, but it didn't sound a- nearly as bad on the actual recording. It was so confusing. Yeah.
[1:56:58] Let us know, though, if you're a, if you're a Podcast Rock, and you can, uh, help us, help us out with that. Yeah. I have no idea. Super fun episode though. Ross McKay, ladies and gentlemen.
[1:57:06] Please hit the subscribe button, drop us a comment, go to 505 Studios and be the 67th subscriber, and we'll see you guys all next week. Peace.

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