# How to Develop a Creative Style That Actually Gets You Hired ft. Vuhlandes

An episode of [THE 505 PODCAST](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1591279585), 30 Sep 2026, 1 h 11 min.

Audio: https://podcasts.beehiiv.com/3f71d8b4-2a8c-40eb-8500-c62b76bd9acc/019d43e4-0103-7741-b37f-b81b41dca056/01a0f092-9b0f-7e41-b3c3-1754663d9690/01a0f092-9c32-7b45-b31c-32fa39a1501f.mp3

Get 2 extra months of Artlist free when you use our code on an annual subscription: https://artlist.io/artlist-70446?artlist_aid=the505podcast_2970&utm_source=affiliate_p&utm_medium=the505podcast_2970&utm_campaign=the505podcast_2970 What’s up, Rock Nation! Today we’re joined by photographer, filmmaker, and director Vuhlandez. We talk about how personal work helped him develop a style that stands out, how Detroit shaped his creative voice, and why making work for yourself can ultimately lead to bigger opportunities. We also get into taste, creativity, building a career without chasing trends, and how his battle with cancer changed his relationship with work and what really matters. Check Out Vuhlandes Here: https://www.instagram.com/vuhlandes/ Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 01:13 – Being a Filmmaker vs. a “Content Creator” 04:07 – Using YouTube as a Creative Outlet 05:28 – Why Creatives Need to Stop Waiting for Permission 05:57 – How Vuhlandes Developed His Photography and Filmmaking Skills 09:23 – When Vuhlandes First Picked Up a Camera 10:57 – Turning a Passion for Cameras Into a Career 13:10 – Getting Paid for Creative Work for the First Time 13:56 - Artlist 14:38 – Moving From Detroit to LA and Starting Over 18:11 – What It Feels Like When the Opportunities Don’t Come 20:33 – How Growing Up in Detroit Shaped Vuhlandes’ Style 23:23 – Why Staying True to Where You’re From Matters 24:53 – The Opportunities That Come From Building an Audience 27:24 – The Chip on Vuhlandes’ Shoulder That Keeps Him Creating 31:48 – Why Personal Work Is So Important for Getting Hired 33:40 – Creating a Photography Book From 13 Years of Work 35:19 – How Vuhlandes Got Better as a Photographer 38:12 – Why Shooting Wide Open Isn’t Always Better 41:09 – How to Develop a Better Eye for Photography 43:54 – Why Making Art for Yourself Leads to Better Work 45:08 – The Danger of Creating Only for Views and Engagement 46:14 – Why Shooting the Same Places Can Make You More Creative 48:44 – What Vuhlandes Wants His YouTube Channel to Become 51:11 – Creating Without Feeling Pressure to Post Every Week 52:52 – The Film Vuhlandes Made About His Cancer Journey 57:38 – The Response to Sharing Something So Personal Online 58:31 – What Helped Vuhlandes Through Cancer 1:01:42 – Advice for Someone Going Through Something Similar 1:03:48 – How Cancer Changed Vuhlandes’ Relationship With Work 1:07:22 – Moving to New York and Entering a New Chapter 1:09:55 – What Vuhlandes Would Tell His 18-Year-Old Self If you liked this episode please send it to a friend and take a screenshot for your story! And as always, we'd love to hear from you guys on what you'd like to hear us talk about or potential guests we should have on. DM US ON IG: (Our DM's are always open!) Bfiggy: https://www.instagram.com/bfiggy/ Kostas: https://www.instagram.com/kostasg95/

## Transcript

[0:00] Without personal work, you don't really have anything to show what you're capable of. The things that I've gotten hired for was because of, like, my personal work.
[0:07] That's Vlanders, a photographer, filmmaker, and director whose work has become known for its raw storytelling, incredible color, and unmistakable Detroit influence.
[0:15] In this episode, Vlanders breaks down how he taught himself photography and filmmaking, built a career through years of personal work, and why staying true to where he comes from has played such a major role in developing his style.
[0:25] I'm very proud to say I'm from Detroit. Having Detroit as a backdrop for everything that I do is crucial for how I developed my style and taste.
[0:34] We also get into his evolution as a filmmaker, what 13 years behind the camera has taught him about getting better at his craft and working with bigger clients.
[0:41] I kinda just want to have my YouTube be more of a representation of where I am now in my life. I'd rather make things with substance rather than just, like, putting something out because I feel like I need to.
[0:52] And finally, we have a really powerful conversation about his battle with cancer, the film he made documenting that experience, how being forced to slow down changed his relationship with work, and what it taught him about life, creativity, and what actually matters.
[1:03] There's so many more reasons in life to live for than my camera. I feel like I didn't see that until this happened. Vlanders, I wanna start off, uh, you are stepping more into the traditional filmmaking space.
[1:16] You're directing these big campaigns, and I wanna know, what is your relationship like right now with the term content creator? Are you actively trying to distance yourself away from that?
[1:27] Talk us through kinda where you sit with that right now. Yeah, no. Um, I think, I think the goal for me is to always just sh- like, to be doing more. So I think,
[1:41] um, I think kind of naturally you, and myself, like, all of us or whoever it is, kind of naturally with social media, um, start off making content, like what,
[1:54] uh, um, however I guess I f- I feel about the word or how people view me. Because there was a long time where I
[2:02] didn't, like, where, like, being called a YouTuber was kind of, like, a negative thing, where, like, if you were called a YouTuber it came with, like, this connotation that, like, you, like, I don't know, do pranks or you, um, do kind of the YouTubey thing.
[2:16] So I think a lot of the times these kind of, uh, these kind of things and, like, these, um, labels get put on us kind of naturally. But at the end of the day, I think it's just a way for people to kind of, um,
[2:32] I don't know, have a better, have a better way of kind of just, like, describing someone and what they do. I don't necessarily wanna be called a content creator because I think when
[2:43] o- other people hear that or, like, other kind of brands hear that, it kinda takes away from, like, what I'm trying to do, which is, again, just kind of be a director in a director space,
[2:55] in just, like, the filmmaking world and stuff like that, not necessarily creating content. Although, like, I guess you could argue when you set your camera up and record, that is creating content and, like, the,
[3:08] the de- the, the definition of content creating. I guess filmmaking could also be called content creation. So I think it's just, like, I don't know who...
[3:16] It's just how you f- uh, I, I think it just depends on the person. I don't really care. Mm. But I definitely can see why that could, like, kind of be a problem- Mm... in the future for certain things. \[laughs\] But
[3:32] you're so good at the videos that you make on YouTube, I have a hard time putting you in the c- like, traditional content creator bucket because you're putting out films on YouTube that are beautiful.
[3:47] Maybe they're not, you know, feature length in length, but the short films and stuff that you're putting out, um, are beautiful. And so how has, uh, how has that been, posting or making, like, films and
[4:04] going maybe a slightly different route on, on YouTube? Was that, was that always the goal?
[4:09] Like, when you started making, you know, YouTube videos, were you just like, "I'm just gonna use it as a creative outlet, and not sure what's gonna come of it"? Yeah, y- that's exactly it.
[4:19] I think when I first started YouTube, I kind of just wanted to make things that I wanted to make, and, um, I wasn't getting hired to make those things or, like, no one was looking to me to do those things.
[4:30] And to me is, I'd rather be doing it than not doing it at all.
[4:35] So I, um, regardless of if I was wanting, wanting to talk about, uh, a piece of gear, like a lens or camera or whatever the case may be, I still always wanted to kind of, um, practice filmmaking and, like, kinda just, like, practice the things that, like, I wanna do in the future.
[4:54] Whether or not that was with a, a big team or just myself, I kinda just wanted to do those things, and I think YouTube and making YouTube videos was a perfect outlet for me to kind of learn color grading, learn a little bit about lighting, learn a little bit about, um, compositions and, uh, sound, and just all of these things that I don't think I would've had any understanding of if not for making some of these videos.
[5:17] Mm. \[sighs\] Yeah, like, I love what you're saying here because we talk about this a lot. I think people oftentimes wait to pick up a camera. They wait for permission. They wait for someone to pay them- Mm...
[5:33] to do the thing, to practice, or even just pick up their camera in the first place. Um, where did you learn the skill?
[5:41] Was it, did you go to YouTube University and you were just like, "I'm a just try my best to get as good as I can at this craft"? Because you're known within the space for having saucy color editing.
[5:54] You're dialed on photography and cinematography. Y- your sound, storytelling, it's all immaculate. Like, it's, it really is of the 1% caliber in my opinion. And so-
[6:07] I'm just curious, like, how long has it taken you to get to that point, and, like, what did you do? Was it just, "I'm gonna just try to make some incredible YouTube videos"? Wow.
[6:17] Well, first of all, thank you for \[laughs\] the kind words. That, that really warmed my heart. I feel like I'm gonna start crying. But no- \[laughs\]...
[6:24] I think, \[laughs\] um- Bro, save some for the rest of us, man \[laughs\] You can't have, you can't have color, sound, video, photo. I mean, fuck. But, like, I mean, okay.
[6:32] Let- Jesus Chri- No, it's- Dude, the photographer, I'm telling you, it's the photographers that end up going into video, fucks it up. They're just too good at it. Yeah. \[laughs\] That's what it is, bro. I'm telling you.
[6:40] Dude, the guys that stay in video, it's like, save some for everybody. Uh-huh. Yeah. Like, you know, like Hayden- Yeah... Henry- Yeah... Flanders, you guys just can do it all. \[laughs\] It's like, dude. It's not fair.
[6:49] Yeah, it's not fair. \[laughs\] Yeah, no, I'm grateful for photography. I feel like it gives you, it, well, it gave me a little bit of a more of an understanding, um, and an appreciation for filmmaking and what I...
[7:06] I kinda, like, dialed in what I wanted to do and kind of, like, what I like and what I wanna see through photography, and it kind of translated over to, um, my videos.
[7:16] Because I feel like my videos are just, like, an extension of my photography. At least, that's kind of what I wanted it to feel like.
[7:22] Um, so when I was making YouTube videos about photography, I was like, "This is kind of just the perfect, um, segue into that," because I feel like you can kinda flex two muscles at once.
[7:34] You can go out and kind of talk about photography, practice photography, and at the same time, make a beautiful or what I deem to be beautiful, um, kind of film to go along with it. Because I would watch YouTube videos.
[7:49] I did go to YouTube University. That's how I learned, to answer your question. Um, I kinda just, like, wanted to do photography my entire life, but for lack of better terms, I never got into it. And \[laughs\]
[8:02] no, no, no disrespect, I kinda just, like, growing up, thought it was, like, some white people shit. \[laughs\] I'm like, "Oh, that's, like, like, white people, like, take photos," like National Geographic- \[laughs\]...
[8:11] taking pictures of birds. Yeah, the cargo shorts. \[laughs\] I didn't think that was, like, a \[laughs\]
[8:15] I didn't think that was a thing that I could really accomplish or do, especially, like, where I, where I, where I'm from and kind of, like, how I grew up. Nobody else was doing photography for a living.
[8:25] No one else had just, like, a camera. So, um, it, but it's always something I've been, like, inspired by. Like, my older sister would collect, like, these kinda hip hop magazines and kinda pop culture magazines.
[8:38] I always just was like, "Wow, this is extremely, like, beautiful. I love this." Um, and then yeah, as I got older, I just was like, "You know what? I'm gonna just buy a camera and figure it out." So I did.
[8:50] I kinda, like... I used to skateboard a lot, and, um, I got hurt. I got hurt really bad skateboarding. I was in the hospital for, like, two weeks, and then I was like, "All right. This is, like, my opportunity to
[9:03] do, do this photography thing," 'cause it was always in the back of my mind, but, like, I never, like, took the leap.
[9:07] But then after that, like, when I couldn't kind of do it anymore, I was like, "Okay, I, I, I have to start doing s- what I... Like, I have to start doing this. I'm still young. I still have, like..."
[9:18] Like, it's been on my mind since I was a kid. It's like I can't, like, get it out of my mind, so I'm like, "I have to at this point." So- Do you, do you-... yeah, man, hopped on YouTube and taught myself...
[9:26] how old were you when you did pick up the camera? Uh, 19. Oh, wow. Okay. That's c- that's the same age that I picked up a camera. I think I was 19 as well. I was a freshman or something in college.
[9:38] But I vividly remember, too, do you, do you remember the, the day that you finally got the final product?
[9:43] Like, you put the memory card in, and you're like, "Damn, okay," like, "This is some work that I just did," and, like, kinda that moment? \[laughs\] Yeah, man. I remember. I went to Target,
[9:54] went to, uh, \[laughs\] the back, got me a nice little T3i. \[laughs\] Yeah. Same. I had the T5, but yeah, no. \[laughs\] That was the camera. Got me a little T3i. That's a legendary camera, honestly. That- Yeah...
[10:07] that camera did numbers, man, I'm not gonna lie. I feel like that's, like, the starting point for everyone. True.
[10:12] Um, but yeah, got me a T3i with the kit lens, and, like, I just thought I was like, I was like, "Oh, man, I, I'm, I'm getting to it." \[laughs\] Like, I was just like, "Man, this is crazy. I can't believe this."
[10:24] Um, I spent every last dollar I had. I think it was, like, $500. I spent, like, I think I had $500. I had to borrow some money from someone else to get it, too. I was like, "Man." But
[10:36] yeah, then I got it, and it was just, like, ever since then, like, I think, like, I never, like, put it down.
[10:40] I would walk around the house taking pictures of the, the animals, the pets, taking pictures of, like, random stuff on tables and just, like, doorknobs. Like, I just wanted to use the camera.
[10:51] And I felt like any opportunity to just, like, press the shutter was, like, an, a opportunity to, to learn and figure things out.
[10:58] When you, when you finally get into this thing, you find out that you like it, you're like, "This is something that I enjoy doing," was there always this thought in the back of your head of, like, "How could I turn this into something that pays me back for this thing that I love?"
[11:10] Or was it kind of a happy accident? You got into it, you started posting stuff, people started recognizing you, and you're like, "Oh, maybe, like, maybe this is a thing that I could step into."
[11:18] Like, were you at a job before? What was that relationship like? Yeah, no, I, um, I definitely, I definitely had no intention at all in growing a following on Instagram. Um, at the time, Instagram was very early, too.
[11:35] In, like, 2013, '14, Instagram was, like, kind of very early. Again, I didn't even know that there was, like, a photo community on Instagram. I thought it was just solely used for posting selfies.
[11:46] So, like, at the time, I was still, like, posting, like, pictures of my shoes and just, like, pictures of me, uh, selfies and stuff like that, and, like, skateboard clips. I wasn't, um, trying to gain a following.
[12:00] But then I, I think I came across a bunch of photographers early on on Instagram. Like, I don't know if you guys are familiar with Trashhead and 13th Witness. Um- Mm-mm. But some of those guys- Mm-hmm...
[12:12] they, they were, like, older at the time. Okay. They're, like, at that time, they were my age now. Oh, okay, okay. How old are you? And yeah, trash. I'm 32. Okay. We're like the same age. I'm 29. You're what? I'm 31.
[12:23] Dude, we're young, dude. Yeah, you guys are young, young lads, man. \[laughs\] Nah, for real.
[12:29] But yeah, and then I was like, oh, people are actually like taking pictures of like cool shit and like things of like, of whatever they want and like posting it.
[12:39] So then I just started doing that, and then it kind of like snowballed from there, I think, but I definitely never cared. I remember the first time I got like 20 likes on a photo, I was like, "Bro, I'm doing numbers."
[12:50] \[laughs\] This... I was like \[laughs\] Same. I remember. That's so funny. Yeah, I was like, "This is crazy, man. Like 20 likes?" I was like, "I don't even know like 20 people for real."
[13:00] Like, people I went to high school with clearly, but it was like, yeah, it was definitely not something I anticipated or even like planned to do.
[13:11] When, when it finally does start to roll in, are you working like a normal job at the time?
[13:17] I wanna go back to like your head space if you did have a job at the time or if you didn't, and you're just like, "Wow, this, this is starting to pick up." Like, the first person that pays you.
[13:25] Like, I remember vividly when I was at school, uh, I was, I was just hanging out and I get a DM from a girl, and she's like, "Hey, do you wanna do our sorority rush video?" And I was like, "Fucking dollar signs, dude.
[13:34] This is crazy." \[laughs\] "I can make, I can make bread doing this thing." She's like, "I like your YouTube videos." I'm like, "Man, there's money to be made here." And- "This is crazy." And- Huh?
[13:43] You get to be around the sorority girls. Oh, you get to be around the sorority. \[laughs\] You know? It was a win-win. \[laughs\] Cooler than shooting the frat dudes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[13:49] \[laughs\] I was like, "This is crazy. I'm gonna get paid to do some..." I would've done it for free. And hang out with the huzz, dude. Yeah. \[laughs\] I'm crying.
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[14:38] Now let's get back to the episode. I think inevitably, yeah, just like, you know, I ran into some of that as well. I was working at this store called Ollie's.
[14:46] I'm sure you guys have no idea what that is, but basically it's like a, it's like a department store, but it's a bunch of... Like, everything's discounted. It's just like a bunch of discount everything.
[14:57] Rugs, uh, supplies, just everything you can think of is in there, but it's like at a... It costs n- not a lot of money.
[15:04] If you're from the Midwest, you probably heard of Ollie's, especially Michigan, you know what Ollie's is. But I was working there, and I would have to work in the morning. I'd go in at like 7:00 in the morning.
[15:15] Um, but before that, I'd be like, "Oh, if I'ma be here at 7:00 in the morning, like I wanna, I wanna shoot before I, like, have to be at work all day."
[15:23] So I'd wake up before I had to shoot and, like, just go outside and just, like, walk around my neighborhood and take pictures before I had to go in.
[15:30] And then, like, I would go leave after work, go take pictures again, and it was just like, I felt like it w- it, like, kind of just consumed me.
[15:38] Like, it s- it was like the only thing I wanted to do, and not even, like, for money. Like, I didn't even, like, really care about making money. But I also learned early on that, like, I didn't wanna shoot, like, uh...
[15:49] I didn't wanna be like a, um, like... How do you put it? Like, service. Like, I didn't wanna do, like, a service. Like, I don't wanna do graduations. I don't wanna do senior pictures. I don't wanna do weddings.
[16:01] I don't wanna do any of those things because I did maybe three of them, and it was, like, the worst experience of my life, and I was like, "I'll never do this again." And I have...
[16:10] And it \[laughs\] I, like, got no fulfillment out of it, and I was like, it's, like, not even, like, why I wanted to, like, start taking photos in the first place. So, like, I already felt the...
[16:22] If I would've gone that route, the love for what I was doing would've, like, kind of diminished pretty quickly, I feel like, because it just, like, wasn't serving me at all.
[16:31] Um, not to say that it has to, but, like, I just wasn't happy doing those things. So I was like, I would... I'm more happy just, like, running around taking pictures for zero dollars. Like, why not?
[16:44] But then I remember I moved to, uh, LA in 2016 with like $300 because I was just like, "Man, I just wanna be somewhere else. I wanna..." Like, at the time, I was like, "LA is, like, a, a perfect place.
[16:57] Like, Hollywood's out there.
[16:59] There's people out there who kinda understand what I'm trying to do," because, like, in Detroit and just where I was, I just felt like it wasn't kind of being understood that, like, photography could be
[17:10] a, a job or, like, something that you do for a living. Um, so I was like, "I just gotta go to LA." But then I went to LA for, like, four, like, five months and came back. I, I can't stand LA.
[17:21] I was like, "I gotta get back." \[laughs\] So you bounce, you, you leave, you leave Detroit, leave Michigan, you go to LA. Do you feel like you didn't have the community out here?
[17:31] Like, what did you not, what did you not like about it? I think so now because I was just in LA, I was just in LA, um, a month ago. Mm. And boy, I had the time of my life. \[laughs\] It was a good time.
[17:43] I, I was like, "I love LA, man. This is, this is great." So I think just being young, not really having a community, like you said, and, um, not really knowing the, the city at all- Mm...
[17:54] or, like, where to go, what to do, how to move and stuff like that. And, um, I kinda just, like, thought I'd go out there and it'd kinda, like, fall in my lap. Like, I'll kinda just, like...
[18:05] Um, I was slightly big on Instagram at the time, so I was like, "Oh, I could figure it out." Like- But yeah, it just wasn't- Did you-... wasn't great...
[18:14] when you go back home, did you feel defeated at all or did you think like, "I still can, I know I can do this. Like, I know it's possible"?
[18:21] Walk us through the head space in that 'cause I know a lot of people go to any big city, to New York, to a Miami, to an LA, and they expect all these opportunities to come. I did the same thing.
[18:30] When I came back from school, I was living on my parents' couch a- and like I, I, I had a, a bedroom but I was pretty much living on the couch.
[18:37] I was trying to like hit people up, DM people, email people, and I was going 0 for fucking 200. I'm like, "This is bullshit." \[laughs\] Like, I thought I was gonna come back, I'm like, I have good work.
[18:46] I thought opportunities similar to you, I was like, "They're gonna come to me," you know? And I didn't feel like those opportunities did come to me. It was very humbling. Or,
[18:54] you know, we have a lot of people who listen to this show f- that don't live in a major city like LA or New York, and sometimes they might... I feel like it's easy to play the victim card when you're a creative
[19:06] and you're like, "I need to be in a big city to make it," but like clearly that's not the case. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no. I think, um, I've been a... I was an early advocate of like don't move to LA, don't move to New York.
[19:20] You can make things happen where you are. And I was in Detroit, which is a, a extremely small market, especially for photography, 'cause I was only doing photography at the time.
[19:30] Um, and when I went back home I was like elated. I was just like so happy to like be back in my space 'cause I always, like I love Detroit.
[19:41] Like I, to this day I don't, I live in New York now, but I still think Detroit's like the best city in the world just 'cause it's where I'm from and made me who I am, and like I just love it there. Like, I feel like so
[19:52] good when I'm home. Um, and I've made some of the best work I've ever made in my life in Detroit. So I was really happy to go back home because I was like, "I can get back to like what I was doing."
[20:03] I felt like going to LA kind of like s- like s- stopped me from like the path that I was on and like what I was doing, and the things that I was trying to accomplish.
[20:12] So when I went back home I was happy to kind of get back into that, and I felt like I hit the ground running and, um, started just like creating. Because I'm comfortable in Detroit I know where to go.
[20:22] Again, I know where to go, I know who to talk to for certain...
[20:25] Like, it's, it was just like easy and more comfortable, which could also be a crutch, but for me at the time for what I wanted to do it was where I needed to be. Yeah. There's the phrase art imitates life, right?
[20:39] Being that you grew up where you did, I think it's very evident in the work that you make, but I would love to hear you talk about how growing up in Detroit influenced the work that you make, that you made and make, and how it influences you still to this day even if you are somewhere like, you know, LA or New York.
[21:01] Yeah. I think, um, I think a lot of people who are proud to be where they're from, like I'm very proud to say I'm from Detroit.
[21:10] Like, a lot of people move to, to other places and like they become that place, but like I'll never not be from Detroit. I'll never not be a Detroiter.
[21:19] I'll never not like carry those like things that I've learned from living and growing up in Detroit with me through no matter where I go.
[21:26] I could be in, on the other side of the world and I'll still carry myself with those values that I learned, um, just from being in Detroit.
[21:34] But with that, I think with, in my work I like to photograph kind of real-life moments. I love kind of just the way life happens, and that's probably my biggest inspiration. I don't really get inspired by, um,
[21:51] like things that are meant to be inspiring. For me, like just walking outside and seeing life happens is inspiring to me, and I think a lot of people...
[21:59] There's so many people in the world and there's so many stories to be told within all of these people. Like, you walk past someone every single day.
[22:06] I mean, you walk past hundreds of people every single day, and all of these people have very unique stories and lives that, that they've lived. And in Detroit everyone has that as well,
[22:17] and I think just growing up around it, I wanted to just be immersed in, in doing that, in telling stories, and, um, just having
[22:30] Detroit as a backdrop for everything that I do was I think crucial for how I, um, developed my style and taste and everything that I wanna do within my work.
[22:42] Because essentially the goal for me in life now is to make a movie, and what I wanna make a movie about is like real life. Like, I don't wanna make a movie about something that didn't happen.
[22:53] I wanna make a s- story, tell a story about my life, the lives of people around me, and stuff like that. So I'm super inspired by just living in Detroit. Very hard city, very like, very gritty, very, um,
[23:11] very tough, but like very beautiful and resilient and, um, just a lot, all the people there are very hardworking and that's what inspires me to kind of do the work that I do now. Oh, you go.
[23:26] I was gonna say on the topic of being inspired, I remember... 'Cause I had been following you for a minute before we met in Tokyo, which is really sick place to meet.
[23:35] \[laughs\] But I remember after hanging out with you for like, what, five, six days, leaving thinking a few things. One, Velandis is like exactly who he comes off on camera.
[23:49] Like, I felt, I didn't feel any different between the real-life you versus you in the videos that I had been watching on YouTube. And also, you were very,
[24:04] like you just had your own swag, for lack of a better term. Like, I admired how- \[laughs\]... comfortable you are in your own skin.
[24:13] And like you just said, you're like, "I'm very proud to be from Detroit," and that to me was super evident. It was like super refreshing, and it was really inspiring because-
[24:22] I think it's, it's easy for some people to, like you said, if they move to a new city, they start acting like the people that they're start hanging around or, like, they try to
[24:33] become that city in some way, shape, or form. So I just remember meeting you and, and what you just said now about s- being super proud of where you're from was very evident when I met you, so that was really cool.
[24:46] And I just wanted to tell you that, like, I felt inspired after we hung out 'cause I was like, yeah, like, lean into, lean into who you are, and don't be, don't be afraid of that.
[24:55] Um, and it's also, speaking of Tokyo, that's, like, a really dope opportunity. I still think to this day it was probably the coolest opportunity I've gotten through content. Um,
[25:06] I would love to talk to you about, like, the opportunities that have come through building a following because, you know, you're extremely gifted and talented, and you're hardworking, and there is no
[25:20] mistake for where you are right now. But with that comes some incredible doors that can get opened and some incredible opportunities that you can create for yourself.
[25:29] I'd love for you to talk about, you know, as someone who grew up in Detroit, you've created a following for yourself. Your work is really good. What amazing opportunities have come from that? Man,
[25:42] just, I'm extremely grateful and just, like, uh, blessed to have been... Like, to be put in a position to kind of see the world, um, through the... Just because of the images that I make. Um, it's amazing.
[25:58] Like you said, Tokyo was honestly probably to this day, yeah, the best- Super... kind of opportunity I've gotten through, um, cre- like, creating images ever. Um, that, that's...
[26:10] There was, like, no better experience than, than going to, like, a place like Tokyo for, for that. But, um, I've gone to Sweden, um, with Epidemic Sound. Uh, where else did I go? I'm kind of blanking. But I feel like,
[26:28] just like now, like, I never thought that I'd see another, let alone other places of the United States, but other places of the world.
[26:35] It's like, there's a lot of people where I'm from who haven't, who, who aren't even familiar \[laughs\] with, uh, outside of their neighborhood or outside of our neighborhood.
[26:43] And it's like, I never thought that I'd have the opportunity to kind of like, see the world and meet new people and, uh, just experience new cultures, life, and food, and just all of these beautiful things about human beings that I'm excited and just grateful that I've got to experience.
[27:01] Yeah. Um, I still think about there...
[27:04] \[laughs\] We were driving, and I believe it was a 7-Eleven, and there was some really sick, I think it was, like, one vintage car or two, like, old school cars, and you were so pissed that we didn't stop and we couldn't get the photo.
[27:17] I still remember that dude. Haunts you to this day, but- I still talk about that \[laughs\] I was just telling somebody about that. Really? \[laughs\] Bro, I'll never forget that. That... It was, like, set up.
[27:27] Like, I was like, "This is kinda crazy." It's like, begging to be photographed. Mm-hmm. Like, geez. Man, that's funny. Okay. Uh, on the pre-show call, you told us that
[27:38] you've always kinda had this, like, chip on your shoulder that feel like you needed to prove it to yourself and prove it to other people that you could actually, you know, make something of yourself, especially, uh, growing up in Detroit.
[27:51] Have you had that chip on your shoulder in multiple different times in your life as well as now? What I mean by that is you started off in photography,
[28:02] and maybe you had a chip on your shoulder to become a successful photographer, and then you got into video later on, and then you're like, "Oh, peop-" Maybe you're thinking, "People think I can only make photos, but I can also make videos."
[28:14] And now you're also stepping into one, you're working on a book, and two, you wanna direct actual proper films. Has that chip on your shoulder been consistent through the different phases of your life? I think so.
[28:26] Bro, I think just, again, \[laughs\] I hate to, I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but again, just growing up in Detroit, I feel like it's just, like, just, like, who we are, um, as people.
[28:38] It's like, the city of Detroit is so, like, it's looked down upon amongst the rest of the country.
[28:43] Like, you don't have to be from Detroit, but, like, if you care about Detroit, you're gonna hear, like, very kind of negative things. And
[28:51] again, like, I mean, you guys aren't from Detroit, but if you guys heard somebody mention Detroit, I'm sure it wasn't in, like, a context of like, "Oh, that's a beautiful place. I wanna go there."
[29:00] \[laughs\] Um- \[laughs\] But, but it is. So fair. \[laughs\] But it is. But I've al- you know what? I've always met the nicest people from Detroit. Carhartt's based in Detroit. Really great people. Yeah, exactly.
[29:10] Everyone in Detroit was fucking nice to us when I- Yeah. 'Cause I, I went to Detroit a few times, um, when I was working for the Lakers, and everyone's always really nice in Detroit. Also, Big Sean- \[laughs\]...
[29:20] in high school, Finally Famous was my shit. \[laughs\] And so I was like- Did numbers in my high school too. Shout out to Big Sean and Detroit. \[laughs\] Yeah. See, that was, that was good PR for Detroit.
[29:33] Shout out Big Sean.
[29:34] \[laughs\] Uh, \[laughs\] but, um, but yeah, it was just like, I think just nationally, just kind of we've had our, our moments in history where, like, it wasn't the brightest, and I feel like that kind of cloud loomed over the entire city for the entire country, um, without people ever actually coming here and experiencing it.
[29:55] 'Cause I would always \[laughs\] say stuff like that, like, "Oh, man, like, a lot of people have so much to say about the city, but they've never even been here or interacted with people here," and, like, you know, just gave it a chance, um, before you let someone on the news tell you how you should feel about a place.
[30:12] But yeah, so I think because of that, like, you just naturally have a, like, you just naturally feel like the underdog. I was...
[30:19] I'm very, like, I'm a short guy, so, like, I played football growing up, so- I always felt like I had to be, like, proving myself in that term. Like, oh, I can play these positions, I can do this, I can do that.
[30:32] And I think it kinda just naturally rolled over into, like, what I do now,
[30:38] where like, yeah, I mean, you do have to work a little bit harder when you're not in these, in these places, um, like New York or California or certain areas. So you feel like you gotta work a little bit harder.
[30:50] You feel like you get overlooked a little bit because you're not in these places, you're not from these places.
[30:56] And, you know, to me, I was putting out work that I thought was beautiful and, and good enough for, like, what, you know, brands or companies or whatever the case may be would wanna see and work with me because of it.
[31:11] But then you just realize, like, this shit, this shit is all, like, a business, and it's, it's not... It doesn't always go the way you see it in your head or how you expect it to be or what you think is fair.
[31:22] So, um, I think so. I think I do still kinda have that chip on my shoulder, but also, like, I'm a little bit older now, so like I, I, I understand a little bit more how, how life works.
[31:34] I don't have life figured out, but like I, I get things and I understand that things are, are, are the way because of certain things in life. So yeah, I don't know. I just try to do what I, what I do.
[31:46] And if I get opportunities, I get them. If not, I'ma just keep pushing and doing what I do. How important has the personal work been for just growing your photo and film directing business as a whole?
[31:59] Like, for you as a, as a creator. Oh, I think it's everything. I think without personal work, which, like, that's my favorite thing to do is personal work because I have all the input and s- \[laughs\] and say into it.
[32:13] Um- I'm with you, dude. Like, dude... but I also have all these- Being told what to do, man, fuck. \[laughs\] Jesus. \[laughs\] I'm like, "Just let me take the shots and edit it, man." I'm a p- I'm a peacock.
[32:22] You gotta let me fly. Yeah, bro. A peacock. Let me fly. \[laughs\] Let me cook, man. \[laughs\] But yeah. I think yeah, I just l- I love personal work. I have all these ideas in my head that, like, I wanna do.
[32:34] And again, like, no one's gonna come to me and be like, "Hey, what you thinking? You wanna do it?" It's just like \[laughs\] I gotta go do it.
[32:41] And a lot of times I have ideas, and I wanna cl- complete them so bad that I'm like, "I have to do this tomorrow." Like, I have to go do this, like, right now. Um, or I'm gonna, like, be anxious about it.
[32:52] But I love my personal work, and I think because of my personal work...
[32:56] Without personal work, without work that you created on your own, it's like you don't really have anything to show or, like, what you're capable of or, like, what you do, for lack of better terms.
[33:05] It's like, yeah, I mean, my work, the things that I've gotten hired for was solely because of, like, my, my personal work. So, um, I think it's super important. I think I, I make a lot of time for my personal work.
[33:21] There's, like, a lot of times where I'm like, "No, I, I actually can't do that job because I have to, like, do something for myself."
[33:28] Um, which I'm incredibly blessed to have the opportunity to say no to stuff, \[laughs\] to work on things that's gonna l- make me lose money, actually. So it's like, yeah, I think
[33:38] for me, my personal work is, like, it's ex- extremely important. When you think about this new book that you're doing, which is a passion project, right?
[33:47] How difficult is it to come out with a photography book and pull down probably tens of thousands of pictures into your 80 favorite? Like, talk us through that process. Not easy at all.
[34:02] Honestly, it's like I wanna put every photo that I've ever taken in there almost. Like \[laughs\] and then a lot of my...
[34:09] I, like, switched to film very early on in my, uh, photography career, so like I have a, I have bins of, like, just film negatives that, like, I have to sift through and, like, look at in the light and, like, I'm like, "Is this the photo?"
[34:22] Like, I, I'm not sure. So it's like, it's definitely not easy, and it's also hard because for me, I'm doing a book based around my kind of progression in photography, so what I started off doing to what I'm doing now.
[34:38] Um, so I can have a little bit more, like, I can have more photos in it because it's a book over, I don't know, what, 13 years. So- Oh, shit...
[34:52] I think, I think it's appropriate to have a bit of work in there. But I couldn't imagine having to make a book and it's, like, only
[35:01] 70 pages and 10 pages is writing and just, like, blank stuff, and then I have to pick 30 pictures. Like, I don't even know how that would work.
[35:09] I feel like if that's something I had to do, it'd have to be for, like, a project. Like, I did this one project and I'm turning it into, like, a book. But 'cause that's just too hard. Mm.
[35:21] It's interesting that you're doing your 13 years as a photographer. Is there a clear year as you're s- pulling these photos, is there a clear point where you're like, "I got better right there"? And- \[laughs\]...
[35:36] if there is, like, what do you attribute, um, what do you attribute to improving as a photographer?
[35:45] Is it simply going out and shooting more, or is there some sauce that you can leave us with of, like, this is actually, if you take this mindset or this little trick, it's allowed me to come to a scene or j- if I'm just walking around, it's allowed me to come out with, um, you know, better photos?
[36:05] Yeah. \[laughs\] I think, yeah, there's a, there's a lot of clear points with... Like, going through these photos were, was kinda crazy 'cause I'm like, "Geez, man. What, what was I doing?"
[36:14] \[laughs\] And at the time you were like- It was so bad These are tough. These are so tough. \[laughs\] At the time I'm like, "This is tough."
[36:21] \[laughs\] But a lot of it, a lot of it comes down to, like, the way I edited the photos, too. I'm like, this actually wouldn't be that bad if I didn't, like- Like deep fry it. Like, what was I doing? Like \[laughs\] what...
[36:32] I was in Lightroom cooking too much \[laughs\] Overcooking. Um, but yeah, there, there's some times, but also I'll say now, like I still to this day take photos and like get a roll of film back and I'm like,
[36:47] "I don't know what I was thinking." Like I \[laughs\] this is not good.
[36:51] But I think a lot of that con- uh, stems from just like me being my, my biggest critic and like wanting things to look and feel and come off a certain way to me, not even everyone else.
[37:04] And sometimes I kind of get discouraged by, not really discouraged, but I think we could all agree that we want to be the best versions of ourself when we, when we're creating anything.
[37:14] Even if it's something we don't wanna do, we still try to do it to the best of our abilities. Um, just so, just 'cause that's who, that's just who I am.
[37:22] So I think there's times where I look back and I'm like, "These photos are good," but I just see, I just see a kind of a style change honestly over the time. I feel like the, the subject matter is,
[37:34] is pretty much more or less the same. But I think just like the way I approached it and the way that I went about photograph. And I used to shoot wide open and wide, like 24 millimeter 1.4 all the time.
[37:47] Like I don't think my lens even left one point. I don't even think that my 24 millimeter ever left 1.4 aperture the entire time I had it.
[37:56] So I think now, like I'm, now that I'm older \[laughs\] I just like have a little bit more understanding of just photography and image making and image creating in itself.
[38:07] I don't know everything still, but I, \[laughs\] I know that other apertures exist now, so. \[laughs\] Yeah. What are you primarily at? \[laughs\] Like are you, are you primarily like an F4 or 5.6?
[38:19] What it, what are you, when you're walking around the streets and you're looking for something, what are you typically at? I think I'm more of like a 5.6. Mm. I feel like that's like the- Sweet spot...
[38:30] especially shooting, I shoot a lot of medium format too, so like 5.6 still looks like 2.8. Mm. It's like- Oh, okay... it's kinda wild. Um, yeah.
[38:41] Es- especially too, like if you kinda understand distance and stuff like that, any a, a, a deep aperture could look wide, not wide open, but it could have some blurriness to it. So it's like
[38:54] I kind of like to um, I've also learned that like I want more of like, uh, my scene to be seen, if that makes, \[laughs\] if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. So
[39:06] it's tough because like a lot of the times I'm like, man, this background and just like this environment is really beautiful to the work, but then like you crush it by like just blurring it out completely. And
[39:17] a lot of times now I've, I've wanted the environment to interact with the subject more. So I've just, yeah, I think shooting and figuring out lighting and, um, stuff like that- I'm, I'm with you on the-...
[39:31] is where I am... on the aperture. Yeah. I'm with you on the aperture.
[39:34] Like I remember when I was shooting sports, I was always at 1.8 or 2.8 or whatever it was wide open, and then slowly as I got better and better and started to understand just composition more and framing, I'm like, "Man, I could be at F5.6" and then- But- You know?
[39:48] Here's the thing Yeah. 'Cause Brayden used to shoot a lot of sp- I mean, he worked for the Lakers for five years, so he shot sports damn near every single week. I was in the music scene for like three years.
[40:00] You're dealing with low light conditions. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Because of the environment, you're almost- Truly... forced to shoot wide open. Yeah, that's fair.
[40:07] I am with both of you guys, like as of recently, probably this year, um, I actually, I watched a- This week. Yeah, this week. Yesterday. Uh, I watched- \[laughs\]...
[40:17] a video by, I believe his name is Cam Mackey, and he was saying exa- he was having this conversation. He goes, "I used to shoot wide open all the time."
[40:24] He goes, "But I was wondering why my photos weren't looking like these other photos, like they're just a different feeling." He's like, "So I did a test.
[40:32] I went to go shoot the same exact photos wide open versus like 5.6 to 7.1." He goes, "There's just a different look and feel." He's like, "I can't explain it. I can't put it into words.
[40:42] You guys can clearly see that there's a difference." And so I saw that and I was like, "Oh, I do like the- Mm... the l- like not so wide open photos."
[40:49] So I've taken that into my work and I've actually found that the photos that I've been taking that aren't wide open, I've enjoyed the look of them more. I- And that's just, yeah...
[40:58] so, so on the topic of you looking back at your old stuff, I don't like critiquing people's creative work that don't fucking ask for it. 'Cause I think that we all have a starting point- \[laughs\]...
[41:09] and we all were ass at one point, like we're fucking terrible, and then you slowly get better over time, and then you're like, "Wow, my stuff is, you know, at a great level."
[41:16] But if you could go back and you could just talk to someone that's young right now, that might be looking at your photos on Instagram and they're like, "I know I'm not at this level yet, but I'm trying to bridge this gap," is there something that you could say to them that would help them with when they go out, how to find these frames, and how to find something that when they actually go get into Lightroom that they're like, "I'm happy with this.
[41:35] Like I know I'm getting somewhere. I'm not just shooting fucking flowers when I walk outside every time. Like I'm finding these little micro moments."
[41:42] 'Cause you go on your page and these photos, they fucking talk to you. Like you can see there's like emotion behind them.
[41:47] I love when you can see the faces and you can see s- like what someone's feeling and, you know, these beautiful, you know, sweeping scenes. What would you say to that person? Hmm.
[41:59] I think I'd say to approach photography from a standpoint of wanting of... Approach photography from a standpoint of not trying to, I guess,
[42:14] take an amazing photo, but like take a photo that is interesting to you. Take photos that are like, uh, that mean something to yourself.
[42:27] And it doesn't have to be like emotional, but like you liked the way that the sha- like you liked the way the shadows look- On this street at a certain time of the day and you walk this street every single day, like go out and photograph that.
[42:43] And then go out and photograph that again and again. And just like do it over and over, and just kind of make yourself see things differently. A lot of th... A, a,
[42:53] a way that I felt like I got myself better was, like I said, I would walk around the house taking pictures of random things. But another thing that I did was I used to...
[43:02] There was this back street by my house that like had this car on it, and, um, it was, uh, the car wasn't abandoned, but it never moved.
[43:09] And I would take pictures of that at least three times a week, different ways every single time. Different compositions, different times of the day, different, um, uh, what is it? Um, seasons. Summer- Mm... winter, fall.
[43:26] Like raining, bright. Like I feel like that forced me to kind of see the exact same thing differently, and that's something that I really wanted to do.
[43:36] Because with Instagram and just like being on social media all the time, a lot of this stuff can kind of get muddy and kind of start looking the same.
[43:44] Especially like when certain things are doing well, you're like, "Okay, I need to be doing that thing." Or- Mm... then like...
[43:50] 'Cause at the time a lot of people was shooting at 1.4, so I'm like, "Oh, that's like what, that's what we're doing." Like, you know what I'm saying? \[laughs\] Like that's like how we're supposed to take photos.
[43:57] We've all agreed. So n- Yeah. This is the law. \[laughs\] Yeah. So like naturally you kind of, you know, do those things as well.
[44:06] So I think it's important to kind of find what you like, even if it's of something as mundane as like a car sitting on the street.
[44:14] It may not be interesting, but I feel like it's a good practice to kind of figure yourself out and kind of figure out what you like and what you wanna do, and what you wanna see within your own work.
[44:26] Because what you do should be for... not for you. Clearly if you're putting it on the internet it's for the, for the masses. But at the end of the day it's like you, you, you don't wanna be another, I don't know.
[44:39] What's the school of fish that's always together? I forgot what kind of fish they are, but- Like the herring or something... they all look the same. Sardines? It's like you can't- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[44:46] Something like that. Yeah. You can't tell them apart. Mm. You can't tell them apart. But then if a, if a nice shiny big orange and yellow fish swims through the middle of them you're gonna be like, "What's that?
[44:56] Who's that?" Mm. And, um, terrible analogy, but I think it's important to kind of \[laughs\] be yourself and kind of stand out from like what's, what's going on and like what's popping and what's not popping.
[45:09] It's just like do whatever you wanna do. No, I think it is a, I think it's a great analogy because I think Rick Rubin had this quote about making art for yourself, and inevitably that makes it better for the audience.
[45:20] 'Cause you're not making stuff with the thought of, how are they gonna perceive this? And I think it's like exactly what you're saying.
[45:27] It's a really dangerous game that we've all been played into 'cause you notice that something works. You're like, "I'ma rip this again." Mm-hmm. And then you get in this mindset- Mm-hmm...
[45:35] especially when you're getting money for the creative stuff. You're like, "Okay, that obviously is 100,000 people- Yeah, yeah, yeah... saw that and liked it.
[45:42] If I do it again, pretty high chance that someone in there wants to work with me." And then you do it again, and then you do it again. Oh, yeah. For sure.
[45:47] And then, and then you almost compromise, uh, your, not style, but just almost what you would naturally do anyways because of the little numbers on the screen.
[45:57] And then the comments, and people are like clapping for you and shit. And it just kinda... \[laughs\] You know what I'm saying?
[46:01] It's just like, it's a tough, um, it's a tough game that we all play 'cause at the same time, yeah, it is, it is a business, you know?
[46:08] And you're try- You're like, "I'm paying rent with this camera and with this like, these photography." Yeah. You know? So it's, uh, it's super interesting to think through.
[46:17] I, I think it's so interesting that you talk about how you shot this car over and over and over again. Yeah. I love that. And I can relate to it because I just moved back to Santa Monica, and I can...
[46:31] I can't see the pier from my apartment because there's a fricking hotel blocking it. But if I walk- \[laughs\]... across the street I can see the pier. And I've always been super drawn to like photographing the pier.
[46:43] When Braden and I lived together and I had to do some sort of brand deal it was like, "Let's go to the pier." I don't know why, I've just always- Mm. It's always been super interesting.
[46:51] There's always like street performers. It's such a classic part of LA. Um, and I have an idea for shooting. Like I would love to create some sort of photo book that, you know, captures the West Side of LA and, and...
[47:03] or maybe even just shoot the pier. But I say all that to say this past weekend there was like a hurricane that happened, and so the waves were like massive and the weather was crazy.
[47:13] And I went down to go see if I could shoot some photos and get something, and I got a photo that I could not have gotten like any other time. It was just a unique situation where the time of the day, the waves.
[47:29] It, like that, I've been to the pier a million times. I've been to the same spot that I took the photo a million times, but a unique photo came from it.
[47:38] And so I love the idea of like practicing on the same thing because you might think that you're getting bored 'cause you're shooting the same thing. But maybe you give yourself some restrictions. That's another thing.
[47:50] Like I love- Mm. I have a, I have like a Leica Q2, and at first I was like, "Fuck," like it only, it's a fixed focal length. It only has one focal length. Like I, I'm gonna be limited as a photographer.
[48:02] But I kind of love it because restriction forces you to get creative. And sometimes as an artist if you have unlimited options, if I had...
[48:13] Like how unrealistic is it for me to carry around a camera that, you know, I have my 16 to 35, a 24 to 70, and a 70 to 200, and a focal length, and maybe a 200.
[48:24] It's like you can't have everything, and it almost makes it overwhelming. So I love- Yeah... the idea that you're saying of, of shooting the same thing to practice
[48:34] different times of the days, different focal lengths, different seasons. Like you'd be surprised at the different types of images you'll create shooting the same thing. But with different options. For sure. I agree.
[48:47] Yeah, I like it. Um, going, going into YouTube right now, what are you focused on making?
[48:55] Like, in this n- in this new season of your life right now, 32, where are you trying to go with the films that you're putting out there, these movies? \[laughs\] Yeah, man, I think I'm trying to figure it out.
[49:08] With YouTube, I feel like YouTube's always evolving, and something that I'm always trying to do is evolve. I never wanna kind of stay the same or kind of just keep doing the exact same thing.
[49:20] So I think for me with YouTube, um, 'cause YouTube used to be my livelihood, like, that's how I would make money. So you kinda have to play into, like, certain tropes of YouTube- Mm-hmm...
[49:34] with, like, thumbnails and titles and, um, what your, the, the subject matter is.
[49:40] But I think for me moving forward, um, I kinda just wanna start get back to making videos just because I wanna make videos of, like, whatever, whether it's something about photography or filmmaking, or whether it's just, like, a video of, of me doing something that I wanna do or talk about something that I wanna talk about.
[50:00] I kinda just want to have my YouTube be more of a representation of where I am now in my life. And I think I just wanna make stuff. I don't wanna do the whole, um, the whole thing anymore.
[50:14] I think that's kind of ran its course with, like, the, uh, what do you call it, the, um,
[50:21] gear, the gear videos and the breakdowns and kind of testing gear, which I still will do but, like, in a different way that makes sense and kind of feels refreshing to me at least.
[50:33] So I think just moving forward, I kinda just wanna start making films and letting films live on my YouTube channel without, um... I'm trying to find a way to kind of remove myself from, from all of that- Mm...
[50:46] and kinda just, like, make films. 'Cause, like, if you go to my Instagram page, I'm not on it. Like, I, I take photos of other people. I post other people, and tho- like, that's, that's what I do.
[50:57] So I want my YouTube to kinda reflect that as well. Even if I am in a video, I want it to be a video that makes, that, that like I think is, uh, a good video I guess. I just wanna make good video.
[51:10] I just wanna make videos. That's it. Um, how often are you putting them out? Do you feel any sort of pressure that you need to follow this, you know, "I need to put out a video every single week or biweekly," um,
[51:26] a- and, like, what is your creative process? Are, are you now just saying, "I'ma make something when I feel inspired," and that is what it is? Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's, that's what I'm saying.
[51:37] Yeah, just whenever I feel like I wanna make something or make these, like, little stories, uh, 'cause, yeah, I think just,
[51:47] I just wanna have these ideas, make them, and then put them out, and that's really it, whether I do it twice a week or once a month or once every two months, whether, whatever the case may be.
[51:57] 'Cause I used to follow a strict schedule with posting, but now ever since the, uh, my cancer diagnosis, I've kinda had to, like, forcibly step away from that.
[52:08] But I think it was good because it helped me kind of, like, relax and, you know, realize that these things, like, there are no deadlines. There are no timelines. There are no things that I'm, like, required to do.
[52:19] I can go at my own pace, and, like, it's, it's okay and it's fine. I feel like
[52:25] for a long time you feel like if you're not posting you're gonna lose your audience, or if you're not doing this you're gonna lose your audience. And you always...
[52:33] I mean, my, I'm so grateful for my audience, so, like, I always think a way that I pay them back is by making these videos and by, like, you know, giving back in that way. So yeah. But I think now I'd rather
[52:48] just make things with substance and things that, like, I like making rather than just, like, putting something out because I feel like I need to.
[52:55] I remember I was sitting on my YouTube home screen a few months back, and the video popped up about you losing your hair to cancer, and it was one of the most impactful films I think I've ever watched on the platform.
[53:12] And I wanna go through wh- you know, why you made it and, like, what you were thinking in that period of time because I remember I, I hadn't... I'd watched, I'd seen your Instagram before.
[53:23] I don't think I had watched many of the YouTube videos, and I watched that front to back, and I was like, man, what a, what a brave video to make for also all the guys and gals out there that are struggling with the same thing and see it from a storyteller's perspective and, you know, walk you through this process of what it's been like to have, you know, to have cancer and go through chemotherapy and have to lose your hair and something like that.
[53:49] Could you talk us through that? Yeah, no. Um, I appreciate, uh, I appreciate the question. But yeah, I think for me, like, just naturally, like I said, I wanna tell stories, so
[54:03] even when something, like, traumatic like that is happening, I'm like, "I have to find out a way to..." 'Cause for me that's, it's like therapy I feel. It's like I have to find a way to kind of document what's going on.
[54:16] Like I s- I wanna tell stories about things that actually happen, and, like, what better way to then, like, what better way to document something that's happening? I feel like specifically that video too, my hair,
[54:30] I had my hair for so long. Like, I started growing my hair when I started photography, so I've, it's been with me on this entire journey of, um...
[54:39] And I've been through so many stages of, in my life up until that point, so, like, it's, my hair, like, felt like it was... a part of me in a way that, like, nothing else was.
[54:48] It's been with me when I was going through really tough times, really exciting times, um, just so many different times in my life, just all wrapped into, like, the strands of hair that I felt like made me who I was.
[55:01] And the reason I really made the video is because that impacted me so much, because y- losing your hair to, to chemo isn't unique to, to me. It happens to everyone who goes through it. But I felt like it was unique,
[55:17] but I felt like it was unique to me because I had never gone through it. And,
[55:22] um, my hair was important to me, and I fa- I found out I was losing my hair because I was in the hospital for something else, and I was, like, really sick, and it was on my birthday. And I was just, like,
[55:34] in the hospital for, like, five days, and I was just like, "Bro, like, I just, I, I don't feel good. I don't know why."
[55:39] 'Cause it was something unrelated to, like, me having cancer to why I didn't feel good, but it was something to, to do with cancer, if that makes sense. It was, like, a side effect from, from the shit. Um,
[55:50] and then, like, I'm, like, tossing and turning one day, like the day after my birthday. No, it was on my birthday.
[55:55] I'm, like, tossing and turning, then, like, I take my pillow and I turn it, and I just see, like, a shit ton of hair just, like, on the pillow. So I was like, "Yo, what?"
[56:04] So then I'm, like, feeling my hair and I'm, like, can feel my scalp, and I'm like, "When did this happen?" And then, um, I just think the experience of, of all of that...
[56:13] So when I got home, I was like, "Okay, it's falling out, so before it falls out, I need to, like, cut it." And, um, yeah, I think it was just, like, for me, that was the moment.
[56:23] Even when I was, like, dead sick, to me, that was the moment
[56:27] that, like, it felt real to me, that, like, it felt like I had the, the, uh, disease because I was like, "Oh, this is, like, a visual representation now that, like, I'm sick." 'Cause before that, I could just kind of...
[56:42] I mean, if y- if I don't look sick, I don't look sick. Like, I have my hair. I, like, I could, like, look like this and be sick, but you wouldn't know.
[56:49] But yeah, I was, like, losing weight, lost my hair, so I was like, that's when, like, it really hit me that, like, oh shit, this shit is real. Like, it's actually not, like, a joke. So
[56:58] yeah, I was like, "Oh, no, I gotta document this," 'cause it'd be, one, great for people who go through the same thing, because I went through it blind, didn't know what to expect.
[57:09] And then two, also, like, I do photography. I'm a photographer. Like, you kind of, a lot of... I feel like we equate having cancer to, like, really old people or kind of, like, younger kids for some reason.
[57:22] It feels like it doesn't happen to someone who's, like, healthy and they're 20, like late 20s, like, doing, like, working out, eating good, and stuff like that.
[57:32] You feel like it doesn't happen to those people, but it does. And it's like I feel like I needed to make those videos just to kind of shine light on that in my own type of way.
[57:41] What was the response to that video when you put it out? Man, it was... I think the response to all the videos I put out were, were just overwhelmingly, like, good, just very...
[57:57] A lot of people who I don't know wishing me well and just, like, you know, saying really nice things. So it was, it was, it was overwhelming, the response.
[58:09] Like, it was, it was nothing but good responses, but it wa- it was overwhelming because I was like, "Wow, like, there's a lot of people out there who don't know me that care."
[58:19] There was a lot of people who came across that video for the first time not knowing me at all that were like, "I don't know you, but hope you, like, beat this," and stuff like that.
[58:28] So it was just, like, really good responses to it. That's amazing. I'm also curious, like, how you're doing now and how the journey has been. Um, and I mean, that's...
[58:43] What you, what you've gone through is, is incredibly heavy, and so I'm curious if there's something you were able to lean on or something you kept going back to that got you through the hard times, because
[59:02] I could imagine if, if something like that was to happen to me, like, you lean on friends and family and stuff, but I think that I would, I would lean to, like...
[59:14] I'd probably consume a lot of, like, stand-up comedy and try to- \[laughs\]... try to get myself- Yeah...
[59:19] in, like, a positive, a, a positive mindset or obviously try to, you know, go on walks and clear the head and all that kind of stuff. But I'm, I'm curious if there's- Yeah... anything like that where, um,
[59:30] when, when things did get really tough, if there's something that, like, you, you went to that helped you get through what you were going through. Yeah, man. I, I watched just...
[59:42] I just watched a ton of movies, just, like, comedies and, uh, rom-coms, serious stuff. I watched sad stuff about people with cancer. It was, like, a lot of stuff just, like, I felt like, I don't know. I love filmmaking.
[59:59] I just love watching videos and movies and films. So, like, I felt like I had nothing else to do, so I was just consuming a lot of, like,
[1:00:12] things that, that, that were, that's, like, made for, that were made for, like, movie theaters and, uh, stuff like that. I felt like I had to kind of get off of social media for a bit. So
[1:00:24] I wasn't really too heavy on that. And then, um, I kind of just, like, formed
[1:00:33] just, like, a deeper relationship with myself, I think, just, like, in life in general and just, like, being so grateful for life that, like, I don't know. I just feel like that's really all I've kind of cared about.
[1:00:48] It just kind of made me view life in a different lens and- Like, move through life differently, just more compassionate.
[1:00:58] \[clears throat\] I felt like I was already a pretty passionate, uh, compassionate person, um, nice to strangers and stuff like that, but I feel like it kind of molds your brain into, like...
[1:01:11] It molds your brain in a way that, like, I can... I don't think I could have ever done without it, if that makes sense. Um, so I am, in a way, grateful for the experience. I'm doing better now. I do still...
[1:01:26] I s- I still am on, um, a regiment. I have to take pills and stuff like that, but I don't have to do any of the hard stuff that I was doing, which is great. But I have to take pills and stuff like that.
[1:01:37] But other than that, doing fantastic. I'm alive and well. Oh. All the stuff. It's, it's great. It's a good time. I'm so happy to- Yeah, it's amazing... to hear that.
[1:01:45] Um, if someone by chance has made it this far into the episode,
[1:01:51] they've maybe come across the video that you put out of maybe you losing your hair or another video of yours, and they've, they've stumbled across this and maybe they're
[1:02:00] going through something, like, similar to what you went through, um, do you have anything that you could tell or share with that person, um, maybe a, a piece of advice or something that you might, that you think might help them in the time that they're going through?
[1:02:21] I'd say don't feel like you have to do any of the things that you're doing alone. A lot, a lot of times, I would feel like
[1:02:32] even if I explained to someone what I was going through, that nobody kind of understood what I was going through.
[1:02:39] Even if people saw me and what I was going through, like, it's kinda tough to feel like, you know, you, you, you're not isolated in, like, that experience. But I would say kind of
[1:02:51] lean into, like, these groups out there that are full of people like me, and if that person has, uh, something similar, there's a lot of people out there to talk to, a lot of people out there to connect with about this.
[1:03:05] And I would say probably don't isolate yourself and, and do that.
[1:03:10] Because outside of your family, of course you have your family and friends, which is amazing, but I feel like there's nothing like connecting with people that's, that's gone through or are going through the same thing that you're going through.
[1:03:21] Yeah. I think that's, that's really fair. I think that you can, um... With what you went through, um, my fiance has gone through some pretty heavy stuff, and I think just being able to talk...
[1:03:36] It's one thing to lean on and talk to people who, your friends and family. I think, like you just said, it, it is another thing to
[1:03:44] be able to talk to someone who's gone through the same thing as you, because you can just relate to them, um, in a different way. So I totally agree.
[1:03:53] I, I also think what's really interesting, and you brought it up, is like when that happened to you, your, your whole livelihood, you know, changed. Like, you're forced to slow down, not work as much.
[1:04:06] And so as someone who, you know, their livelihood was or does depend a lot about, like, being on this hamster wheel of putting out content every single week or consistently, um, what has that taught you?
[1:04:22] Or, like, what have you had to, had to learn to, like... Like, how did you deal with that? Because me and Brayden have talked about this a lot, where we're young, we're healthy, you kinda feel invincible, and you're...
[1:04:37] The reality is we could wake up tomorrow and, and receive some sort of news or something that forces you to, uh, kind of reshift your life in a way that you didn't expect to.
[1:04:50] And so I'm curious to know, like, how you dealt with that and how that has changed how you go about your work now. Yeah, no, it's crazy. Like, like you said, it could just happen to, to anyone.
[1:05:04] Because \[laughs\] literally the day before I was playing flag football and, like,
[1:05:08] scoring touchdowns and just, like, running and, like, you know, just doing things like that, and the next day I'm, like, di- like, you know what I'm saying?
[1:05:16] It just kinda just, like, happens out of nowhere, which is ex- it's so crazy.
[1:05:20] But I think that, that experience, I'm also grateful for it with when it comes to, like, my work and just, like, life in general because \[clears throat\] since it kind of forced me to take a break and, like, kinda sit down and not be able to create things or go out or, and do things, or just kinda, like,
[1:05:40] be in this kind of grind, grind s- like, grind sta- uh, grind state where, like, I feel like every single day I wake up and ev- all day I'm just, like, doing something to kind of push and further my goals, whether it was \[clears throat\]
[1:05:54] sending emails or going out to shoot or, like, doing three shoots in a day and just, like, kind of just grinding and grinding because I'm like, "I'm chasing my dreams and this is what I wanna do," it kind of forced me to realize that it's okay if you're not doing that.
[1:06:09] It's okay if you aren't posting for a week, a month. It's okay to take breaks. It's okay to not have to feel like you have to do all these things all the time, because
[1:06:21] out of nowhere I couldn't do any of those things, and the things that were still there were my friends, my family, my, um, \[laughs\] my pets. It's like s- the things in life that matter way more than, than my camera.
[1:06:36] And at the time I'm like, "Nothing matters more than, like, my camera and, like, doing the things that I wanna do," but there's so many more reasons in life to live for.
[1:06:45] And I feel like I didn't see that until this happened. So I feel like it definitely helped me form more of a healthy relationship with-
[1:06:56] Creating content and, like, putting it, and the internet itself because I was off the internet for a while, and for the longest time I'm like, "I can't be off the internet for a day, I'm gonna miss something.
[1:07:05] I, I gotta be interacting with people," and this and that.
[1:07:09] But yeah, it's, it's just helped me kinda like form a better relationship with my friends and family, social media, my career, just everything all around, just 'cause I think there's things in life that matter more than, um,
[1:07:23] my career. Yeah. One, 100%, yeah. How has, uh... When did you move to New York, and how has that experience been? We got here seven months ago. We moved in February, so, um- Good time to move, huh?
[1:07:37] Been here for a little bit. The... Oh, amazing. It was, it was \[laughs\] it was the best. \[laughs\] Middle of winter. Yeah, don't move in February. It is wild. It was tough.
[1:07:49] And then the movers we got, it was only two of them, and like I had to sit in the, the truck and it was freezing- God... just like, 'cause I had to watch our stuff. So I'm like, oh, it was, it was brutal, man.
[1:08:01] But, um, other than that, it's been, it's been a great time. It's been a really good time. I've been wanting to move to New York, but never kind of like really pressed the button on that.
[1:08:14] My fiancee loves it here, and she kind of convinced me,
[1:08:19] uh, to, like, kinda take the, take the leap because I was kinda just like, "Nah," like, my work is so embedded in, in like the Midwest landscape, I don't know how I would work in New York. I don't know what I would do.
[1:08:31] We were coming here so much, though, that it almost felt like we, we were living here before we lived here. Like, I know how to get around, I know how to catch the train, I know what areas I w- I like to be in and go to.
[1:08:40] I have friends here. Um, so it wasn't, it wasn't any of that. It was more so me just, like, wanting to, like... I was comfortable with, like, what I was doing.
[1:08:49] I also felt like I wasn't really done doing what I was doing. But, um,
[1:08:56] m- to go back to the cancer thing too, I'm like, once I got done with that, I was like, it was nice to kinda get, get out of Detroit because it was just, like, reminding me of that experience.
[1:09:08] And I'm like, okay, since I beat this, like, I'm still young and I do still have my life and health, so like
[1:09:14] I wanna at least go live in a big city while I still can and, like, see what it's like and, um, just do things like eat different food, see different people, uh, take public transit, and just, like, do...
[1:09:27] just, like, live a different life, um, than I was living in Detroit. So yeah, it's been a good time though. It's been nothing like... I love it here. I don't know if I, if I would ever leave. This is a great, this is...
[1:09:38] I fucking... What a place, man. \[laughs\] New York's sick. I, uh, I was there a month ago for my cousin's wedding, and it's, um, it's sick.
[1:09:51] I, I always, I always wish I pulled the trigger and moved, but you're inspiring me. Maybe it's not too late. \[laughs\] It's never too late, brother. \[laughs\] That's so funny. Man, this has been- \[laughs\]...
[1:10:02] this has been an incredible, incredible conversation. I think, uh, I've loved learning more about your story and about everything that you're doing, your why.
[1:10:11] If you could go back and talk to your 18-year-old self before you went on this journey, nothing that would change the journey, but if any wise words of encouragement, anything that you would say to yourself, what would that be?
[1:10:24] Relax. Mm. Just, just relax. Uh, \[sighs\] yeah, just relax. Everything's gonna work out. I love that. 'Cause I think I just, uh,
[1:10:40] again, I just on the go just... I don't think I would change, but just, like, the, the mental part of it. I think mentally, I think,
[1:10:50] I think m- the mental side of the stuff is just as important as, like, the creation and just, like, the, what, like, what you're putting out.
[1:10:57] You can get in your head about a lot of stuff, um, that has nothing to do with yourself or what you're doing. And yeah, just to relax and make the decisions you're gonna make, and make them with confidence and,
[1:11:13] yeah, that's it. I love that. I love it, man. This has been an insane episode- It's all good... of the 505 podcast.
[1:11:18] \[laughs\] If you're still here, please hit the subscribe button, drop us a comment, leave us a like, and we'll see you guys all next week. Peace. \[claps\] Let's fucking go.

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