# Polymarket and Kalshi Grapple With A New Class of Insider Trader

An episode of [Big Take](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1578096201), 20 Jul 2026, 21 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/825d4e29-b616-46f4-afd7-ae2b0013005c/ca3b624b-a9fa-4861-83e9-b48d01577951/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=8b1dd624-a026-43e9-8b57-ae2b00130066

From celebrity wedding details to the timing of military strikes, prediction markets have opened the door to gambling on almost anything. They’ve also created a new class of insider trader that platforms and US regulators are racing to stop. On today’s Big Take podcast, Bloomberg’s Denitsa Tsekova and Leonardo Nicoletti join host Sarah Holder to break down a $200 million surge in unusual bets on Polymarket — and explore what it will take for regulators to rein them in. Read more: Prediction Markets Are Minting a New Type of Insider Trader We have a special Bloomberg subscription offer for podcast listeners at Bloomberg.com/podcastoffer. Hosted by Sarah Holder; Produced by Rachael Lewis-Krisky and Victor Swezey; Reported by Denitsa Tsekova and Leonardo Nicoletti; Edited by Aaron Edwards and Julia Weaver. Fact-checking by Victor Swezey, Laura Newcombe and David Fox; Engineering by Emma Munger. Senior Producer: Naomi Shavin; Deputy Executive Producer: Julia Weaver. Executive Producer: Nicole Beemsterboer. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
[0:09] Speaker 2: I'm camping outside the Super Bowl stadium with his listening
[0:11] Speaker 2: device for the next few days. You can battle how
[0:13] Speaker 2: long the national anthem wiviews.
[0:14] Speaker 1: Back in February, the TikToker Cayden Booth thought of a
[0:18] Speaker 1: way to game the Super Bowl. He wanted to make
[0:21] Speaker 1: a wager on the prediction platform polymarket about how long
[0:25] Speaker 1: it would take Charlie Pooth to sing the national anthem.
[0:28] Speaker 3: He figured out when the rehearsal for the Super Bowls
[0:31] Speaker 3: are happening, He figured out when the artists are flying.
[0:35] Speaker 3: He was striking like private jets, other jets and just
[0:37] Speaker 3: like figuring out all the travel.
[0:39] Speaker 1: That's the needs at t Sekova across Asset reporter covering
[0:43] Speaker 1: global markets at Bloomberg.
[0:44] Speaker 3: He waited twelve hours in total, and in the end
[0:48] Speaker 3: he managed to be outside on a public sidewalk listening
[0:51] Speaker 3: to the rehearsal of the national anthem and timing it
[0:54] Speaker 3: with a stopwatching hint.
[0:56] Speaker 1: Cayden would go on to bed more than fifty thousand
[0:59] Speaker 1: dollars based on this estimate.
[1:00] Speaker 2: So I hammered under one hundred and seventeen seconds and
[1:02] Speaker 2: wait to the Super Bowl to see if we.
[1:04] Speaker 1: Won, and on game day he won big when the
[1:06] Speaker 1: anthem came in at one hundred and four seconds long.
[1:24] Speaker 1: Cayden isn't a casual polymarket trader. He's more like a
[1:27] Speaker 1: power user, and his Super Bowl wager became part of
[1:31] Speaker 1: a larger conversation about what constitutes a fair trade on
[1:35] Speaker 1: the platform.
[1:36] Speaker 3: So there were so many posts questioning whether this is
[1:38] Speaker 3: insider trading.
[1:39] Speaker 1: You know.
[1:40] Speaker 3: Half of the responses were like, Oh, this guy's super smart.
[1:42] Speaker 3: He went there, he did his job, not that he
[1:44] Speaker 3: is insider. The other people were like, oh, this is
[1:46] Speaker 3: pushing things too far.
[1:48] Speaker 1: Polymarket explicitly forbids, betting with stolen or confidential information, relying
[1:53] Speaker 1: on illegal tips, or placing wagers on events where you
[1:56] Speaker 1: can influence outcomes. Caden's bet didn't appeared across any of
[2:01] Speaker 1: those lines, but a Bloomberg BusinessWeek analysis of polymarket transactions
[2:06] Speaker 1: flagged as suspicious by the analytics firm poly Sites found
[2:10] Speaker 1: that in the first six months of this year, potential
[2:13] Speaker 1: insider trades have been on the rise, especially insider trades
[2:19] Speaker 1: with geopolitical implications.
[2:21] Speaker 2: We saw that a majority of these trades are concentrated
[2:25] Speaker 2: in Iran war and Venezuela geopolitical markets.
[2:29] Speaker 1: That's Leonardo Nicoletti. He's on Bloomberg's data visualization team and
[2:33] Speaker 1: he worked on the analysis with Danitza.
[2:35] Speaker 2: There are tens of millions of dollars in bets on
[2:38] Speaker 2: those markets, and some accounts, usually a very small share
[2:43] Speaker 2: of accounts, have made huge profits on those markets.
[2:48] Speaker 1: Tanitza says the stakes of using insider knowledge to inform
[2:52] Speaker 1: prediction market bets are getting higher than ever.
[2:55] Speaker 3: If I can make money on a market that is
[3:00] Speaker 3: connected with violence, with attacks there and all that, if
[3:04] Speaker 3: I have an incentive to do that, that gets pretty.
[3:06] Speaker 1: Dark, right, And now regulators and the platforms themselves are
[3:10] Speaker 1: starting to rethink where the lines between questionable and illegal
[3:14] Speaker 1: should be drawn.
[3:15] Speaker 3: We're used to treating insider trading when it comes to bonds, stocks,
[3:19] Speaker 3: and like you know, if I'm a Microsoft employee, it's
[3:22] Speaker 3: a common sense that I cannot do so much trading
[3:25] Speaker 3: on the stock if I have insider information. So what
[3:28] Speaker 3: the rules are not ready for is like binary outcome
[3:32] Speaker 3: contracts on pretty much everything in the world. There are
[3:36] Speaker 3: so many platforms that are tracking this activity, but users
[3:39] Speaker 3: have been getting more sophisticated.
[3:44] Speaker 1: I'm Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from
[3:46] Speaker 1: Bloomberg News today on the show, Prediction markets have opened
[3:50] Speaker 1: the door to gambling on everything from celebrity wedding details
[3:54] Speaker 1: to the timing of military strikes. They've also created a
[3:58] Speaker 1: new kind of insider trader, one that US regulators and
[4:02] Speaker 1: the platforms themselves are racing to stop. Leo Denizza, both
[4:11] Speaker 1: of you have been reporting on the wild world of
[4:14] Speaker 1: prediction markets sites like polymarket and calshi, where people can
[4:18] Speaker 1: bet on binary outcomes in the real world. You've specifically
[4:22] Speaker 1: been looking at the rise of insider trading on these platforms.
[4:26] Speaker 1: So first, how do prediction markets like calshi and polymarket
[4:30] Speaker 1: define insider trading?
[4:33] Speaker 3: I think the main thing is non public information. It's
[4:36] Speaker 3: important how you get it, especially if you get it
[4:38] Speaker 3: in an illegal way that breaks even more rules, even tipping,
[4:43] Speaker 3: like if I work at a certain company where I
[4:45] Speaker 3: have information, I give it to you that is also
[4:48] Speaker 3: considered illegal, but it has changed a lot.
[4:52] Speaker 1: Tracking suspicious transactions on these platforms can be difficult, in
[4:56] Speaker 1: part because it's hard to know who exactly is making
[4:59] Speaker 1: these t rate. Calshi is primarily based in the US,
[5:03] Speaker 1: which means it's regulated by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission.
[5:07] Speaker 1: It requires customers to verify their identities to use the site.
[5:12] Speaker 1: But polymarket has a US market and an international exchange,
[5:17] Speaker 1: which isn't regulated by the CFTC. That international venue lists
[5:22] Speaker 1: contracts that are considered broadly illegal in the States, including
[5:26] Speaker 1: on outcomes related to war and terrorism, and it also
[5:30] Speaker 1: allows many users to register without an identity check.
[5:34] Speaker 2: Poly Market, on one hand, they use blockchain, which means
[5:38] Speaker 2: that you know, everything is transparent. You could see every
[5:41] Speaker 2: single trade, every amount of money, but there are no
[5:45] Speaker 2: identities associated with each account or or trade, right, so
[5:51] Speaker 2: that makes it really hard to understand like which trade
[5:56] Speaker 2: would constitute insider trading or would be reason to investigate further?
[6:01] Speaker 1: Right, But Leo You and Denitza worked with a data
[6:05] Speaker 1: analytics platform called polysites that uses its own metrics for
[6:09] Speaker 1: identifying potential insider trades on Polymarket's global exchange. Walk me
[6:15] Speaker 1: through that analysis.
[6:16] Speaker 2: What Polycyites does is that they basically crunch all this
[6:21] Speaker 2: data in real time, and they use a set of
[6:24] Speaker 2: different metrics where they score each trade according to how
[6:30] Speaker 2: likely it is to resemble something that would be a
[6:34] Speaker 2: classic example of insider trading. They're using a different metrics
[6:40] Speaker 2: including how much money the trader is wagering, how recently
[6:44] Speaker 2: their account was created, and how close in time the
[6:48] Speaker 2: account creation was to the time in which they traded.
[6:52] Speaker 2: So if they opened an account and then five minutes
[6:55] Speaker 2: later they put a twenty thousand dollars bet on something
[7:00] Speaker 2: very specific, they would score really high on that.
[7:02] Speaker 1: Measure idea being like, why else would they be creating
[7:05] Speaker 1: this account unless they knew that they exactly could win
[7:09] Speaker 1: a lot of money on a specific bet.
[7:11] Speaker 2: Or that they had very high conviction on that specific bet,
[7:16] Speaker 2: so that they created the account specifically to trade on that,
[7:20] Speaker 2: and you know, the combination of that and then putting
[7:23] Speaker 2: a lot of money into it and trading only one
[7:26] Speaker 2: or very few related markets, for example, only trading one
[7:30] Speaker 2: Iran war market or three markets that are very similar.
[7:34] Speaker 2: These are all things that Policide uses to score each
[7:38] Speaker 2: trade on a scale of how likely it is to
[7:43] Speaker 2: be potentially insider trading activity. And so what we did
[7:47] Speaker 2: is we examined roughly thirty four thousand trades, accounting for
[7:52] Speaker 2: almost three hundred million dollars of money wagered. Basically, we
[7:57] Speaker 2: found that trades with characteristics and associated with insider activity
[8:03] Speaker 2: have become more prevalent on polymarkets starting January of this year.
[8:09] Speaker 1: Leo, What kinds of trades are seeing the most of
[8:11] Speaker 1: this kind of activity according to your analysis and are
[8:14] Speaker 1: there any notable examples we should talk.
[8:16] Speaker 2: About the main thing that we've observed is that this
[8:20] Speaker 2: kind of activity was largely driven at least this year
[8:24] Speaker 2: by trading on geopolitical markets. In geopolitical events, we saw
[8:29] Speaker 2: that a majority of these trades are concentrated in Iran
[8:33] Speaker 2: war and Venezuela geopolitical markets like things like US trikes
[8:39] Speaker 2: Iran by February twenty eight or Maduro out by this
[8:45] Speaker 2: date right. What we found is that the daily volume
[8:50] Speaker 2: of these called them flagged trades really spiked and crested
[8:56] Speaker 2: in late February, where the bets in Iran really markets
[9:01] Speaker 2: were highest.
[9:03] Speaker 1: One high profile case with geopolitical implications involved the US
[9:07] Speaker 1: soldier Gannon Ken van Dyke, who was indicted in April
[9:10] Speaker 1: for allegedly using highly sensitive military information to make money
[9:14] Speaker 1: on polymarket. Vandyke has pleaded not guilty to charges of
[9:18] Speaker 1: trading on classified information.
[9:20] Speaker 3: The case is going through court now, but he profited
[9:23] Speaker 3: more than four hundred thousand on the ouster of Vanco
[9:27] Speaker 3: president Nicos Maduro. So that was kind of a big
[9:30] Speaker 3: case of clearly national security issue. Right if soldiers are
[9:35] Speaker 3: trading on prediction market and potentially giving signal about their
[9:38] Speaker 3: future strikes and their future military action, that's obviously a
[9:42] Speaker 3: massive national security risk.
[9:46] Speaker 1: What did your reporting show about why these are on
[9:49] Speaker 1: the rise. Is it just like as these markets grow,
[9:51] Speaker 1: there are more opportunities. Is it that there are more
[9:54] Speaker 1: opportunities to place bets on these huge geopolitical events.
[9:58] Speaker 3: I think it's a combination of both. Like, most of
[10:01] Speaker 3: those markets didn't exist like a year and a half ago,
[10:04] Speaker 3: and you know, prediction markets weren't really cracking down this
[10:08] Speaker 3: activity as much before, so it kind of created a
[10:10] Speaker 3: whole new world of opportunities that wasn't heavily regulated and
[10:16] Speaker 3: there was no massive crackdown and the consequences weren't clear
[10:20] Speaker 3: just a year ago. I think it also goes back
[10:22] Speaker 3: to how prediction markets were conceived and the initial ideas
[10:27] Speaker 3: behind it. A lot of the big theories behind prediction
[10:30] Speaker 3: market actually say that insider trading is good. Insider trading
[10:34] Speaker 3: is a signal. So if the supreme purpose of a
[10:38] Speaker 3: prediction market is to be a truth machine to tell
[10:41] Speaker 3: you the future. Then having insider traders in that market
[10:45] Speaker 3: is going to help you find the truth.
[10:50] Speaker 1: So funny you said that proponents of prediction markets say
[10:54] Speaker 1: that these insider trades actually help people find the truth.
[10:57] Speaker 1: Say more about that argument. Can you explain it?
[10:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really fascinating. So one of the people we
[11:01] Speaker 3: have in the story is Robin Hanson, who's kind of
[11:04] Speaker 3: one of the big theories behind it. Some people who
[11:07] Speaker 3: it the godfather of prediction markets. He's spoken to and
[11:12] Speaker 3: advise both of the big founders, so a targment sour
[11:15] Speaker 3: at Kaushi and then Shane cop On at Polling Market.
[11:17] Speaker 3: So the main argument he has is that insiders are
[11:21] Speaker 3: helping markets. If our goal is to find information, if
[11:24] Speaker 3: you want to find what is the outcome of a
[11:26] Speaker 3: certain event, if we actually have knowledgeable participants, that is
[11:30] Speaker 3: good for us, right right.
[11:32] Speaker 1: So his argument is that if you have the insider
[11:34] Speaker 1: information you place the bed that will make the odds
[11:38] Speaker 1: more accurate and more reflective of reality. And the fact
[11:41] Speaker 1: that there's money on the line just makes the stakes
[11:43] Speaker 1: even higher to find the truth, make the right bed
[11:45] Speaker 1: of course.
[11:46] Speaker 3: Yeah, there are whole theories of how you can govern
[11:48] Speaker 3: a country, how you can govern a company, how you
[11:51] Speaker 3: can govern so many things using prediction market because there
[11:54] Speaker 3: definitely have been considered a good aggregator for information and
[11:57] Speaker 3: a good aggregator of wisdom of the crowds, and in
[12:00] Speaker 3: that lines of thinking, insider trading could help.
[12:04] Speaker 1: Okay, but what about the critics, What are the risks
[12:06] Speaker 1: of having an uptick in this kind of insider trading
[12:09] Speaker 1: on these prediction markets.
[12:10] Speaker 3: Well, the risks are countless. I mean, I don't think
[12:13] Speaker 3: it's going to be fun for anyone playing in any
[12:15] Speaker 3: market that there are people with knowledge that probably are
[12:18] Speaker 3: making prices high for you, Like I don't think it's
[12:21] Speaker 3: fun for traders. I think traders will try to stay
[12:24] Speaker 3: away and they still unfair. Yeah, it feels unfair and
[12:27] Speaker 3: they try to stay away from this. Then the bigger
[12:30] Speaker 3: questions are there are a lot of market. So the
[12:33] Speaker 3: two main thing is manipulation, I shouldn't have incentives to
[12:36] Speaker 3: manipulate this. And then obviously national security. I think that's
[12:40] Speaker 3: been the massive things. If like US soldiers or any
[12:43] Speaker 3: country soldiers are going to a prediction market and figuring out
[12:46] Speaker 3: and giving signal about their future military plants. It can
[12:51] Speaker 3: get pretty dark.
[12:54] Speaker 1: After the break. Calshi and poly Market are trying to
[12:58] Speaker 1: tamp down on potential insider trading even as users get
[13:02] Speaker 1: more sophisticated. If you're looking for an example of an
[13:15] Speaker 1: eyebrow raising prediction market wager, you don't have to go
[13:18] Speaker 1: back very far. Just last week, ABC News reported that
[13:22] Speaker 1: a teleprompter operator for President Trump had made over one
[13:25] Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars by betting on more than a dozen
[13:28] Speaker 1: presidential speeches on Calshi. Calshi flagged the suspicious activity to
[13:33] Speaker 1: the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, ABC reported. At a press conference,
[13:38] Speaker 1: White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt responded to questions about
[13:42] Speaker 1: the alleged issue.
[13:43] Speaker 3: I'm aware of the report. The President is too. I
[13:45] Speaker 3: spoke with him about it. He believes it's deeply unfortunate
[13:49] Speaker 3: and frankly a disgrace in the individual that was cited
[13:52] Speaker 3: in that report is complying with the CFTC.
[13:55] Speaker 1: Levitt said that the teleprompter operator had been put on
[13:58] Speaker 1: unpaid administratively. If the allegations are proven, a case like
[14:03] Speaker 1: this could be a pretty clear cut example of someone
[14:06] Speaker 1: with insider knowledge profiting off their access, but Bloomberg's den
[14:10] Speaker 1: needs the sec of US as It's also an example
[14:13] Speaker 1: of how prediction markets say they're addressing suspicious trades on
[14:16] Speaker 1: their platforms by reporting cases to the CFTC or the
[14:20] Speaker 1: Department of Justice. In this case, cal She did report
[14:25] Speaker 1: the suspicious activity to federal regulators. Can you talk more
[14:28] Speaker 1: about how Polymarket and Calshi's approach has differed when it
[14:33] Speaker 1: comes to dealing with suspicious trades on their platforms. How
[14:37] Speaker 1: did they respond to your reporting?
[14:39] Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean their reaction was that they're doing their
[14:44] Speaker 3: best and then they're referring as many cases as possible, which,
[14:47] Speaker 3: in their defense, they are like Bullymarket's direct response to
[14:52] Speaker 3: this was that they have referred one hundred cases to
[14:55] Speaker 3: law enforcement. Cal She's also they've had some interest seeing
[15:00] Speaker 3: measures to stop that. For example, they've banned a lot
[15:03] Speaker 3: of athletes betting all sports. They ask for employment information
[15:08] Speaker 3: in certain markets. On calshi, we've seen a lot of
[15:11] Speaker 3: activity from politico members and candidates, and they have banned
[15:16] Speaker 3: find some.
[15:17] Speaker 1: CALSHI has said that it now screens to prevent politicians
[15:20] Speaker 1: from wagering on their own campaigns and athletes from making
[15:23] Speaker 1: bets related to their sports, and that it's even collecting
[15:26] Speaker 1: employment data from users in some markets to prevent insider trading.
[15:31] Speaker 1: In March, polymarket updated its rules to prohibit trading based
[15:34] Speaker 1: on stolen confidential information and illegal tips, as well as
[15:38] Speaker 1: wagers by those in a position to influence outcomes. And
[15:43] Speaker 1: how are federal regulators approaching this problem.
[15:46] Speaker 3: There is a kind of a regulatory fight in the
[15:49] Speaker 3: background between the CFTC and different states about who regulates
[15:53] Speaker 3: prediction markets in the first place. I guess the agreement
[15:56] Speaker 3: is that currently is the CFTC. So the CFTC has
[16:00] Speaker 3: taken a stance mostly critical of polymarket and their kind
[16:04] Speaker 3: of international markets, their global exchange and them handling so
[16:08] Speaker 3: much of the contract. But then at the same time,
[16:10] Speaker 3: what we're seeing from the polymarket exchange in the US
[16:14] Speaker 3: is very different. They don't offer most of those contracts
[16:17] Speaker 3: that have issues, and also they have a lot more
[16:20] Speaker 3: stronger requirements, so they haven't been able to do too
[16:25] Speaker 3: much with those markets.
[16:26] Speaker 1: Polymarkets. US market allows sports and entertainment betting and not
[16:30] Speaker 1: much else, but on Polymarket's international exchange, which is illegal
[16:35] Speaker 1: to access in the US, users can bet on virtually anything.
[16:40] Speaker 2: The International Exchange is not regulated by the CFTC, so
[16:45] Speaker 2: technically US people should not be trading on the international exchange.
[16:50] Speaker 1: Bloomberg, Leonardo Nicoletti. Again, if you.
[16:53] Speaker 2: Try to sign up for polymarket dot Com within the US,
[16:58] Speaker 2: you'll get a message that says that you're not allowed
[17:01] Speaker 2: to do that.
[17:02] Speaker 1: But another big challenge for US regulators looking to crack
[17:05] Speaker 1: down on illicit trades is that traders within the US
[17:09] Speaker 1: can find ways to illegally access Polymarket International. While it's
[17:14] Speaker 1: impossible to identify who is trading on the platform or
[17:17] Speaker 1: from where. Leonardo's analysis looked at how many trades were
[17:21] Speaker 1: funded through crypto exchanges that are regulated in the US,
[17:25] Speaker 1: like Coinbase. He found that since January twenty twenty one,
[17:29] Speaker 1: about twenty one billion dollars worth of trades on Polymarket
[17:33] Speaker 1: International were funded through these US regulated crypto exchanges. That's
[17:38] Speaker 1: roughly half of all the traceable trading volume on the platform.
[17:43] Speaker 2: And the interesting part is that when you look at
[17:46] Speaker 2: geopolitical markets, especially for example, the Iran war markets, this
[17:52] Speaker 2: percentage goes up to seventy percent. And then we took
[17:57] Speaker 2: our poly sites flagged RAID data and we've found a
[18:02] Speaker 2: very similar pattern. Basically, flag trades related to the Iran
[18:07] Speaker 2: war markets since last July are almost three times more
[18:11] Speaker 2: likely to have been funded through US regulated cryptocurrency exchanges
[18:16] Speaker 2: then through other sources.
[18:18] Speaker 1: In response to BusinessWeek's reporting, a poly market spokesperson pointed
[18:22] Speaker 1: to the global platforms ban on users and restricted jurisdictions.
[18:26] Speaker 1: The spokesperson also said quote polymarket surveils and monitors for
[18:30] Speaker 1: insider trading and other illegal activity unquote, and said that
[18:34] Speaker 1: the blockchain helps both the public and the platform track
[18:37] Speaker 1: suspicious trades. This all leads me to my last question,
[18:42] Speaker 1: which is just like how hard is it for prediction
[18:45] Speaker 1: markets to actually enforce these rules and what challenges are
[18:49] Speaker 1: they going to face as they try to crack down
[18:51] Speaker 1: on insider trading moving forward.
[18:54] Speaker 3: I think it's really hard, Like even some of the
[18:57] Speaker 3: rules they have already implemented, like for example, tracking political candidates,
[19:03] Speaker 3: even for that, there are already some issues because like
[19:05] Speaker 3: all the databases of like who's involved in a political
[19:08] Speaker 3: campaign doesn't necessarily reflect all the people that are involved
[19:12] Speaker 3: in their gaps. A lot of the insider trading we
[19:14] Speaker 3: see is not directly done by the person who has
[19:17] Speaker 3: the insider information because obviously that's very risky, but like
[19:21] Speaker 3: that information can be passed on, and then the more
[19:24] Speaker 3: people get that information and it's passed on, it just
[19:27] Speaker 3: becomes very very hard to investigate. It becomes even harder
[19:32] Speaker 3: to bring a lawsuit, and it just brings a whole
[19:34] Speaker 3: level of complications. So I can see how there will
[19:37] Speaker 3: be more regulation to this, and I can also see
[19:41] Speaker 3: how those platforms get more sophisticated with tracking those, with
[19:45] Speaker 3: stopping those, and yeah, I feel that will be the future.
[19:50] Speaker 3: But I also feel that at the same time, traders
[19:52] Speaker 3: on the other side, we also get more sophisticated, So
[19:55] Speaker 3: it's a constant game of catching up. Yeah, catamouse, it
[19:58] Speaker 3: never stops.
[20:03] Speaker 1: This is The Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder.
[20:06] Speaker 1: To get more from The Big Take and unlimited access
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[20:22] Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

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