# The Online Games Where the House Always Wins

An episode of [Big Take](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1578096201), 1 May 2026, 22 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/825d4e29-b616-46f4-afd7-ae2b0013005c/dc5519cc-5f11-4c19-8e83-b43d0145dcc1/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=8b1dd624-a026-43e9-8b57-ae2b00130066

Game apps like High 5 Casino and Monopoly GO! are wildly popular. Players pay up for perks and the mobile game industry makes money – a lot of money. But scrutiny on these kinds of games and what some players call addictive, gambling-like qualities could challenge the way they do business. On today’s Big Take podcast, host Sarah Holder and Bloomberg reporter Vernon Silver go inside the world of so-called “social casinos.” Who’s profiting the most from them? And could a slate of ongoing lawsuits change their business model? Read more: The $11 Billion Casino-Style Economy Built on Players Who Can Never Cash Out We have a special Bloomberg subscription offer for podcast listeners at Bloomberg.com/podcastoffer. Hosted by Sarah Holder; Produced by David Fox; Reported by Vernon Silver and Peter Robison; Edited by Aaron Edwards. Fact-checking by Eleanor Harrison-Dengate; Engineering by Alex Sugiura. Senior Producer: Naomi Shavin; Deputy Executive Producer: Julia Weaver. Executive Producer: Nicole Beemsterboer. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
[0:08] Speaker 2: You definitely don't have to spend money to play the game, however,
[0:12] Speaker 2: like your experience is a lot better if you do.
[0:17] Speaker 3: Brenna Ingram lives in Grand Rapids, Michigan. A few years ago,
[0:22] Speaker 3: a couple of her friends told her about their new hobby.
[0:25] Speaker 2: They were talking about this game, and I was like,
[0:27] Speaker 2: what are you playing? And they're like, it's this game
[0:29] Speaker 2: Monopoly Go. You should download it, and I was like okay.
[0:32] Speaker 3: Brenna got into it right away. Pretty soon, Monopoly Go
[0:37] Speaker 3: became a central part of her social life.
[0:39] Speaker 2: We started a group chat called the Monopoly Go Mommies.
[0:43] Speaker 2: We talk about the game. We partner up with each
[0:45] Speaker 2: other for different events, but then we also like talk
[0:48] Speaker 2: about other things like life things and TV shows, and
[0:53] Speaker 2: just like it's become more of like a friend group.
[0:56] Speaker 3: The rules of Monopoly Go are simple.
[0:58] Speaker 2: You have dice that you are rolling around the monopoly board,
[1:03] Speaker 2: and as you go around the monopoly board, you're either
[1:06] Speaker 2: collecting tokens or collecting different things to then essentially get rewards.
[1:14] Speaker 3: The game is free to play, but there are ways
[1:16] Speaker 3: to get more dice, keep the game going longer, and
[1:20] Speaker 3: advance through levels faster if you're willing to pay.
[1:24] Speaker 2: I feel like the first time I spent money in
[1:26] Speaker 2: the game was probably like one of those like four
[1:29] Speaker 2: to ninety nine deals or something to get more dice.
[1:32] Speaker 3: Monopoly Go is part of a broad universe of online
[1:36] Speaker 3: games where you can't actually make any money, but you
[1:39] Speaker 3: can spend money. Some of them are known as social
[1:44] Speaker 3: casinos and Vernon Silver, a senior writer on Bloomberg's investigative team,
[1:49] Speaker 3: has found that some people are spending a lot.
[1:53] Speaker 1: A range of money is astounding. You have evidence in
[1:56] Speaker 1: these cases of people spending over a million day on
[2:02] Speaker 1: rolls or coins in these games where they don't have
[2:05] Speaker 1: a chance ever of winning back a penny.
[2:07] Speaker 3: Casino style games have become a booming business for the
[2:10] Speaker 3: companies that make them and for the platforms that carry them.
[2:14] Speaker 3: The game's brought in more than eleven billion dollars last year,
[2:17] Speaker 3: according to the market intelligence firm censor Tower, Inc. But
[2:22] Speaker 3: recently the industry has been under growing scrutiny.
[2:25] Speaker 1: These are lawsuits in the US that involve using state
[2:30] Speaker 1: gambling law to allege that these games were illegal gambling,
[2:36] Speaker 1: and as a result, the players deserve to get their
[2:39] Speaker 1: money back.
[2:40] Speaker 3: Monopoly Go itself isn't the subject of any of these lawsuits,
[2:44] Speaker 3: which target games that more overtly look like casinos with
[2:48] Speaker 3: graphics resembling slot machines. Still, Brenna's suggestion to somebody considering
[2:54] Speaker 3: downloading Monopoly Go for the first time.
[2:57] Speaker 2: Don't do it.
[3:00] Speaker 3: I'm Sarah Holder and this is the big take from
[3:02] Speaker 3: Bloomberg News Today on the show Inside the World of
[3:06] Speaker 3: Social Casinos and how the world's biggest tech platforms have
[3:10] Speaker 3: profited from their rise. Have you ever played Monopoly Go
[3:21] Speaker 3: or Doubled Down Casino or Candy Crush that's my game
[3:25] Speaker 3: of choice. Well, these are all examples of app based
[3:29] Speaker 3: games that some in the industry categorize as social casinos
[3:34] Speaker 3: or games with gambling like elements. Bloomberg's Vernon Silver says
[3:38] Speaker 3: the industry really got its start around twenty ten, when
[3:42] Speaker 3: Apple's App store was in its infancy and everyone seemed
[3:45] Speaker 3: to be playing Facebook games like Farmville. But the industry
[3:48] Speaker 3: has only gained steam since the pandemic.
[3:52] Speaker 1: During the lockdowns you know twenty twenty for COVID, there
[3:56] Speaker 1: was a whole boom and people just being on their
[3:59] Speaker 1: divice ices, people playing games and that's when downloads in
[4:03] Speaker 1: an app spending took off.
[4:05] Speaker 3: Vernon says, these social casino games have shifted how some
[4:09] Speaker 3: gaming companies make their money.
[4:11] Speaker 1: The gaming economy used to be, you know, you spend
[4:14] Speaker 1: fifty or sixty bucks to buy the game, you know,
[4:17] Speaker 1: a cartridge or a log in for it download, and
[4:20] Speaker 1: it was yours, and you played, and you could play
[4:22] Speaker 1: as much as you wanted. And it just became much
[4:25] Speaker 1: more lucrative to have most people, inconvenient for most people,
[4:29] Speaker 1: for most people, just playing for free, and then a
[4:33] Speaker 1: small number of people day after day, week after week,
[4:37] Speaker 1: pouring in thousands and in some cases hundreds of thousands
[4:41] Speaker 1: into the gameplay.
[4:44] Speaker 3: Today, the world of casino style games is wide. It
[4:48] Speaker 3: includes apps that look and operate very much like little
[4:51] Speaker 3: mobile casinos with virtual slot machines and roulette wheels, and
[4:55] Speaker 3: it also includes games that look nothing like casinos, but
[4:59] Speaker 3: still how some of those same gambling style mechanics built in.
[5:03] Speaker 1: Which scholars have defined as containing random rewards. So a
[5:09] Speaker 1: loop box, a chest where you open it up and
[5:11] Speaker 1: you can either get one jewel or ten jewels, or
[5:13] Speaker 1: a free sword or whatever it is that when the
[5:17] Speaker 1: internal game loop is embedded with a cycle of there's
[5:22] Speaker 1: some resource you want, and you go out and you
[5:25] Speaker 1: try to get it, and at random you can get
[5:27] Speaker 1: more or less of it, and then eventually you can
[5:29] Speaker 1: run out of it, and then here you are either
[5:33] Speaker 1: waiting an hour or waiting a day, or spending a
[5:36] Speaker 1: dollar ninety nine to get more of that resource, and
[5:39] Speaker 1: you start the process all over again.
[5:42] Speaker 3: So what might drive someone to spend not just a
[5:44] Speaker 3: few dollars but hundreds of dollars or more on virtual Monopoly,
[5:50] Speaker 3: Go dice, or more jewels or more spins. One explanation
[5:55] Speaker 3: lies in the game's design.
[5:57] Speaker 1: Let's say you've been spending a buck or two for
[6:00] Speaker 1: twenty minutes play every day for the last five days,
[6:03] Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you realize, gosh, I've wasted
[6:05] Speaker 1: all that money on those when I could have for
[6:09] Speaker 1: ten or fifty or one hundred dollars gotten more than
[6:14] Speaker 1: enough than I'd ever really need to spend for the
[6:16] Speaker 1: rest of the month. And all of a sudden click,
[6:18] Speaker 1: you've made your in at purchase and you're spending it.
[6:21] Speaker 3: Vernon says there are certain mechanics built into many of
[6:24] Speaker 3: these games, like limited time offers and bundle deals that
[6:28] Speaker 3: tempt players to spend larger and larger amounts and keep
[6:33] Speaker 3: playing longer.
[6:34] Speaker 1: The players in the researchers say that there's really no
[6:37] Speaker 1: difference between the flow state and the state of mind
[6:40] Speaker 1: when you're on the casino floor or you're playing a
[6:43] Speaker 1: game with random awards. For some people, we found that's
[6:47] Speaker 1: perfectly fine and it's under control. And for a small
[6:51] Speaker 1: number of people who are the source of the vast
[6:57] Speaker 1: majority of the income for on games of all types,
[7:02] Speaker 1: slightly different story.
[7:04] Speaker 3: Brenna Ingram says the Monopoly Go mommies considered themselves casual
[7:09] Speaker 3: social gamers, but at a certain point they wanted to
[7:12] Speaker 3: figure out how much they'd been spending on the app.
[7:15] Speaker 2: So everyone like wunt to customer service asked, I think
[7:18] Speaker 2: mine was like eighty bucks in the past three years,
[7:22] Speaker 2: But there were people in the group that has been
[7:24] Speaker 2: like fifteen hundred two grand, three grand. That's like a
[7:29] Speaker 2: vacation or you know, like rent payment and that kind
[7:33] Speaker 2: of thing, so the amount is kind of insane.
[7:37] Speaker 3: Pasbro, which makes the Monopoly board game, said it works
[7:40] Speaker 3: with Scopo Ly, the game maker behind Monopoly Go, to
[7:44] Speaker 3: deliver a fun, engaging and responsible player experience Scopelei said
[7:49] Speaker 3: that Monopoly go players on average have spent less than
[7:52] Speaker 3: a dollar per month, with most making zero purchases, but
[7:56] Speaker 3: some of the biggest players of these kinds of games
[8:00] Speaker 3: can spend much more. Within the industry, employees at social
[8:04] Speaker 3: casino app companies have borrowed the language of traditional gambling
[8:08] Speaker 3: businesses to categorize their customers. According to internal emails, spending
[8:13] Speaker 3: a few thousand dollars might make you a Minno. Tens
[8:17] Speaker 3: of thousands, that makes you a dolphin, and the people
[8:20] Speaker 3: who spend hundreds of thousands to millions, they're known as wales.
[8:25] Speaker 1: We're talking about an economy where something in the range
[8:30] Speaker 1: of six percent of the players generate almost all the income.
[8:35] Speaker 3: This lucrative social casino business model has started to be
[8:39] Speaker 3: tested in court. Lawyers have started bringing a series of
[8:43] Speaker 3: class action lawsuits against the makers of some of these games.
[8:46] Speaker 3: The plaintiff's core argument is that these companies are essentially
[8:50] Speaker 3: running gambling operations without a license.
[8:53] Speaker 1: What these lawsuits are trying to do is to get
[8:56] Speaker 1: some of that money back.
[8:58] Speaker 3: Game makers have argued in court filings that their games
[9:01] Speaker 3: weren't illegal gambling because players don't need to pay to
[9:05] Speaker 3: play and are never winners or losers of something of value.
[9:09] Speaker 3: They also highlight the positive feedback they've gotten from players.
[9:13] Speaker 3: One of the cases Vernon examined was brought in Washington
[9:16] Speaker 3: State against the maker of a game called High five Casino.
[9:21] Speaker 1: High five Casino is what we would call a traditional
[9:25] Speaker 1: og social casino. This is like you go in there
[9:28] Speaker 1: are lots of different versions of casino games. It is,
[9:31] Speaker 1: you know, it's one app, and within that app there
[9:33] Speaker 1: are dozens and dozens of versions of kind of the
[9:37] Speaker 1: same thing. You know, slot machines. What have you set
[9:41] Speaker 1: up with different branding and graphics.
[9:44] Speaker 3: Vernon says. One of the striking pieces of evidence in
[9:46] Speaker 3: the lawsuit emerged from a transcript between a customer and
[9:50] Speaker 3: a customer service rep.
[9:52] Speaker 1: This particular customer said that they had lost their own
[9:57] Speaker 1: ability to control their playing and in a real self
[10:01] Speaker 1: deprecating way, said, look, I'm I'm I'm addicted. You got
[10:06] Speaker 1: to take it off. I can't help myself. And this
[10:10] Speaker 1: player was expressing fairly clearly what they wanted the company
[10:14] Speaker 1: to do, which was to get the thing off their computer,
[10:17] Speaker 1: whatever whatever that might mean to this person's knowledge of
[10:20] Speaker 1: how these things worked. The player didn't want it accessible.
[10:24] Speaker 3: Anymore, and how did the company respond?
[10:26] Speaker 1: They shut off her ability to buy new coins, and
[10:32] Speaker 1: then they thanked her and gave her a billion free
[10:36] Speaker 1: coins to continue playing with. This was significant because had
[10:40] Speaker 1: this been a regulated casino Las Vegas or online there
[10:46] Speaker 1: almost every jurisdiction in the US would have been a procedure,
[10:49] Speaker 1: a mandated procedure for helping that person's self exclude from
[10:54] Speaker 1: playing that game. And you know what the gambling addiction
[10:58] Speaker 1: advocates have pointed out, as well as the lawyers for
[11:02] Speaker 1: the plaintiffs in these cases, is that when you aren't
[11:06] Speaker 1: a real money casino, then you're not regulated, and you're
[11:09] Speaker 1: marketing yourself as a game, you don't have the same regulations,
[11:12] Speaker 1: which means you don't have the same guardrails, and when
[11:15] Speaker 1: people do get in over their heads, there aren't as
[11:19] Speaker 1: many protections for them.
[11:22] Speaker 3: In twenty twenty four, a judge in the High five
[11:25] Speaker 3: casino case ultimately ruled the company had violated gambling laws,
[11:30] Speaker 3: and last year a jury ordered the company to pay
[11:32] Speaker 3: almost twenty five million dollars in damages to players. High
[11:37] Speaker 3: five declined to comment for the story. In April, it
[11:40] Speaker 3: agreed with the plaintiffs on a settlement, the terms of
[11:43] Speaker 3: which haven't been disclosed. Many similar class action suits against
[11:48] Speaker 3: other game developers have also ended in settlements.
[11:51] Speaker 1: In Washington State alone, social casinos companies have paid over
[11:56] Speaker 1: half a billion dollars in settlements.
[12:00] Speaker 3: The company behind High five Casino no longer offers the
[12:03] Speaker 3: game in Washington State, but in most others it's still
[12:07] Speaker 3: free to play via Apple, Facebook, and Google. After the break,
[12:14] Speaker 3: how the biggest tech platforms in the world are also
[12:17] Speaker 3: taking a cut of social casinos and why lawsuits are
[12:20] Speaker 3: now coming for them too. Over the past two decades,
[12:33] Speaker 3: so called social casino games have become a massive business.
[12:38] Speaker 3: The industry's revenue has more than doubled in the past
[12:40] Speaker 3: six years. These games have attracted millions and millions of players,
[12:45] Speaker 3: and the companies behind them have been hit with lawsuits
[12:48] Speaker 3: that allege some social casinos are more like gambling casinos,
[12:53] Speaker 3: where as the saying goes, the house always wins. But
[12:58] Speaker 3: there are some other figures that have been essential to
[13:01] Speaker 3: the success of this growing industry, the tech platforms that
[13:05] Speaker 3: host the games.
[13:07] Speaker 1: To get one of these games, you generally have to
[13:11] Speaker 1: download it from someplace, and for the most part. As
[13:16] Speaker 1: we went from the desktop and Facebook era into the
[13:20] Speaker 1: mobile era, Google's play Store and Apple's App Store became
[13:24] Speaker 1: the main place to get these games.
[13:29] Speaker 3: Bloomberg's Vernon Silver says, those tech companies decide which social
[13:33] Speaker 3: casino apps make it onto their platforms, and when those
[13:36] Speaker 3: apps make money from users, the platforms profit too.
[13:40] Speaker 1: You have to you know, apps have to apply to
[13:42] Speaker 1: be on the app store, and they also process the
[13:46] Speaker 1: payments that are made through the apps. For all but
[13:50] Speaker 1: the smallest earning apps, Google and Apple collect a commission
[13:57] Speaker 1: which is thirty percent of the inn app spending, with
[14:00] Speaker 1: some exceptions for certain programs for small businesses. But when
[14:06] Speaker 1: it comes to the absolute biggest earners, the vast majority
[14:09] Speaker 1: of the dollars that flow through the in app purchases
[14:12] Speaker 1: are generating a thirty percent commission for Apple and Google.
[14:17] Speaker 3: What do we know about how profitable these social casino
[14:21] Speaker 3: games have been for these platforms?
[14:22] Speaker 1: The question of how much the platforms are making off
[14:26] Speaker 1: of this is sort of a key one to understand,
[14:29] Speaker 1: Like who's really benefiting financially the most from this boom
[14:34] Speaker 1: in mobile gaming and all the in app purchases that
[14:38] Speaker 1: go through it. Apple, we know is the biggest player
[14:42] Speaker 1: because they're the one with the biggest total in app purchases,
[14:48] Speaker 1: you know, eclipsing Google, which is second. These companies don't
[14:53] Speaker 1: report in their financials how much they're making on games,
[14:58] Speaker 1: let alone even on the apps or Apple does not
[15:01] Speaker 1: break out their app store revenue as a specific line item.
[15:06] Speaker 1: But Wall Street analysts have their estimates of how much
[15:10] Speaker 1: the app store brings in, and some of the market
[15:14] Speaker 1: intelligence agencies that track app spending have their estimates, And
[15:20] Speaker 1: what we found out at Bloomberg is it all kind
[15:22] Speaker 1: of lines up.
[15:23] Speaker 3: According to a Bloomberg analysis of Apple's financial filings, analyst estimates,
[15:28] Speaker 3: and data from sensor Tower, last year, Apple ended up
[15:32] Speaker 3: generating a higher gross profit from game spending across all
[15:36] Speaker 3: games on the App store, including social casinos, than it
[15:40] Speaker 3: did from selling max.
[15:42] Speaker 1: Apple is adamant that you can't calculate these numbers because
[15:47] Speaker 1: they don't calculate this sort of profitability themselves inside the company,
[15:52] Speaker 1: and any attempt to estimate this based on analyst estimates
[15:57] Speaker 1: is an approximation that can possibly be accurate. And when
[16:04] Speaker 1: it comes to the more general question to them of
[16:07] Speaker 1: what do they make of social casinos, they point out
[16:11] Speaker 1: that social casinos as a category is a very small
[16:15] Speaker 1: slice of the overall gaming business that's run on the
[16:20] Speaker 1: App Store, let alone apps of all kinds. And they
[16:24] Speaker 1: also are very clear to say that they don't have
[16:27] Speaker 1: any role in designing the direct mechanics inside the games
[16:32] Speaker 1: that are on their platform.
[16:35] Speaker 3: What about Meta and Google, how do they think about
[16:38] Speaker 3: social casinos again, both in terms of their business and
[16:41] Speaker 3: in terms of the impact that these games can have.
[16:43] Speaker 1: So Meta and Google, just like Apple, for social casinos
[16:47] Speaker 1: in particular, are super clear about the fact that these
[16:51] Speaker 1: are not real money casinos that are being run on
[16:54] Speaker 1: their platforms, that this is entertainment and that should only
[16:59] Speaker 1: be seen as such, and that when it comes to
[17:02] Speaker 1: actual real money casinos, there is a root, for example,
[17:06] Speaker 1: with the App Store and also through the play Store
[17:09] Speaker 1: with Google, where real money gambling companies can register their apps,
[17:14] Speaker 1: but they also have to submit their gaming commission state
[17:17] Speaker 1: by state, they have to comply with all the rules
[17:20] Speaker 1: like you know your DraftKings. One thing that's clear among
[17:23] Speaker 1: all the platforms is they want people to understand that
[17:27] Speaker 1: when it comes to the real money gambling that you've
[17:29] Speaker 1: been hearing more and more about, they're not taking a
[17:32] Speaker 1: cut from that, and that when it comes to simulated
[17:35] Speaker 1: gambling with the social casinos, that it's their position that
[17:39] Speaker 1: they have to put age ratings on them that are
[17:42] Speaker 1: for adults only, and that they should not be construed
[17:46] Speaker 1: in any way as anything other than entertainment.
[17:49] Speaker 3: But Apple, Google, and Meta are the target of a
[17:52] Speaker 3: new series of class action lawsuits brought by the same
[17:56] Speaker 3: law firm that to the maker of High five Casino.
[17:59] Speaker 1: The case against the platforms were kind of the second step.
[18:04] Speaker 1: So when they sued the platforms, they made a very
[18:08] Speaker 1: similar argument that this is illegal gambling and that the
[18:12] Speaker 1: platforms that are hosting, approving, processing the payments for these
[18:19] Speaker 1: games should be held responsible in the same way that
[18:22] Speaker 1: the games themselves are starting to be held responsible. Those
[18:25] Speaker 1: cases are winding their way through the courts right now.
[18:28] Speaker 3: A judge in California rejected one of the central claims
[18:31] Speaker 3: of these suits, that Apple, Google, and Meta were co
[18:35] Speaker 3: conspirators in an illegal gambling enterprise, but the judge rule
[18:39] Speaker 3: the case could proceed on another one of its key points,
[18:42] Speaker 3: that when it comes to social casino games, the platforms
[18:46] Speaker 3: acted as payment processors, not merely publishers. A trial is
[18:51] Speaker 3: yet to be scheduled.
[18:52] Speaker 1: That is for the lawyers who brought the cases. The
[18:57] Speaker 1: ultimate possibility in getting account ability for the entities that
[19:02] Speaker 1: are hosting and processing all the payments for these games.
[19:06] Speaker 3: Meta and Google said social casinos must comply with those platforms,
[19:09] Speaker 3: standards and applicable laws, including measures protecting miners, and cannot
[19:14] Speaker 3: offer anything of monetary value. In a statement, a Google
[19:18] Speaker 3: spokesman said, quote, we maintain clear distinctions between licensed, real
[19:23] Speaker 3: money gambling and social casino games. Apple said in a
[19:27] Speaker 3: statement that social casino games are a small fraction of
[19:30] Speaker 3: the overall game market and that Bloomberg's reporting conflates the two.
[19:35] Speaker 3: The company also highlighted that includes user protections on apps
[19:39] Speaker 3: that feature simulated gambling, like enforcing age limits and quote
[19:43] Speaker 3: requiring developers to transparently disclose the odds for randomized virtual
[19:48] Speaker 3: items before purchase. It's so interesting vernon this increased scrutiny
[19:53] Speaker 3: on social casino games and the companies and platforms that
[19:57] Speaker 3: make and carry them is coming at a time when
[20:00] Speaker 3: it seems like there are so many elements of our
[20:03] Speaker 3: society that are essentially gambling. There's the rise of draft kings,
[20:07] Speaker 3: there's poly market, there's Calci, you can really bet on
[20:10] Speaker 3: anything right now, and I'm wondering where you see social
[20:14] Speaker 3: casino games fitting into that picture, what it says about
[20:17] Speaker 3: our society right now, and where you see this industry
[20:23] Speaker 3: going from here.
[20:24] Speaker 1: The idea that within the context of all the real
[20:30] Speaker 1: gambling that you're hearing about, that there's a corner of
[20:33] Speaker 1: that universe where people are not even able to get
[20:37] Speaker 1: their money back, there's zero way of winning, probably tells
[20:42] Speaker 1: you something about what's driving all the other the DraftKings
[20:47] Speaker 1: and the polymarkets. It's that maybe the money doesn't even matter,
[20:53] Speaker 1: that maybe this is just about the designers and developers
[20:57] Speaker 1: of these games understanding more about what keeps people glued
[21:02] Speaker 1: to their screens.
[21:09] Speaker 3: This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder.
[21:12] Speaker 3: The show is hosted by Me, David Gera, and Juan Hak.
[21:16] Speaker 3: The show is made by Aaron Edwards, David Fox, Jeff Grocott,
[21:20] Speaker 3: Eleanor Harrison Dengate, Patti Hirsch, Rachel Lewis, Chrisky, Katie mcmurran,
[21:25] Speaker 3: Naomi Julia Press, Tracy Samuelson, Naomi Shavin, Alex Sugiera, Julia Weaver,
[21:32] Speaker 3: Yang Yong and Take Yasuzawa. There's much more on bloomberg
[21:36] Speaker 3: dot com. Get unlimited access to all of our coverage
[21:40] Speaker 3: at a special rate for listeners at Bloomberg dot com
[21:43] Speaker 3: slash Podcast offer. Thanks for listening. We'll be back on Monday.

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