# #211 - You Don’t Have to Be Fully Secure to Have Good Friendships (Dr. Marisa G. Franco)

An episode of [Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1576473592), 14 Sep 2026, 36 min.

Audio: https://audio3.redcircle.com/episodes/b5532744-bc39-4a07-a854-7dda3701e28b/stream.mp3

Dr. Marisa G. Franco is back on Dear Nina! This time we spoke about her new book, Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment, and how our sense of self-worth affects the friendships we build, keep, and sometimes struggle to trust. Marisa’s first book, Platonic, focused on how we create and maintain strong friendships. Worth goes a step further inward: What happens when the way we see ourselves makes it harder to believe that other people genuinely like us, value us, or want to be close to us? One of my favorite ideas from our conversation is Marisa’s argument that the goal isn’t to become perfectly secure. It’s to become secure-ish—aware of the anxious, avoidant, insecure parts of ourselves without pretending they’ve disappeared. We discussed: • How old friendship hurts can become “open memories” that continue to shape new relationships • Why one painful rejection can make us expect rejection long after the original friendship is over • How low self-worth can sometimes look like not initiating, pulling away, rejecting compliments, or needing constant reassurance • When reassurance starts becoming exhausting for the friend who is constantly being asked to prove the friendship • Why our assumptions about what friends think of us may say more about our own fears than about what’s actually happening Marisa shares the story of Esme, who carried one devastating friendship moment from middle school into adulthood and became afraid to initiate with people she genuinely wanted to know. We expand on Esme's story to talk about reciprocity, rejection, memory, and the possibility of changing the meaning we’ve attached to experiences from years ago. I also share one of my own “open memories” from college and what came up for me while working through one of Marisa’s exercises in the book. And we get into something I talk about often on this show: sometimes a friend’s lack of initiation really does mean something—and sometimes it doesn’t. Self-worth, fear of rejection, disorganization, and all kinds of other factors can sit underneath behavior we’re very quick to take personally. LINKS MENTIONED: • Dr. Marisa G. Franco's previous episode on Dear Nina: "Telling Friends They've Let You Down" • Buy Worth & Platonic • Find Marisa on Instagram @drmarisagfranco MEET DR. MARISA G FRANCO An enlightening psychologist, international speaker, and New York Times bestselling author, Dr. Marisa G. Franco is known for digesting and communicating science in ways that resonate deeply enough with people to change their lives. She works as a professor at The University of Maryland and authored the New York Times bestseller Platonic: How The Science of Attachment Can Help You Make—and Keep—Friends and Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment. She writes about friendship for Psychology Today and has been a featured connection expert for major publications like The New York Times, The Telegraph, and Vice. She speaks on belonging at corporations, government agencies, non-profits, and universities. For tips on friendship, you can follow her on Instagram (DrMarisaGFranco), or go to her website, www.DrMarisaGFranco.com, where you can take a quiz to assess your strengths and weaknesses as a friend & reach out for speaking engagements. ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO !! Catch up on all Dear Nina episodes on Apple and Spotify 📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina 🔎 Information on any upcoming "Dear Nina Live" events 🎈 Celebrate your friend on the show by dedicating a week of episodes! 📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack ❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group 📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question 📪 email: dearninapodcast@gmail.com 🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? That’s probably here. Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

## Transcript

[0:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Welcome to Dear Nina Conversations about Friendship.
[0:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm your host Nina Baudsen, and writing about Friendship for about 12, 13 years, maybe 14 years by now I'm losing track, and the podcast started in 2021.
[0:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: On the early side of the podcast, I had Dr. Marissa Franco on when she was out with her first book, Platonic.
[0:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I am thrilled to have her back for her second book worth.
[0:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you do not know who Dr. Marissa G. Franco is, and you are interested in the topic of friendship, you are missing out.
[0:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Dr. Franco is a psychologist, an international speaker, a New York time-speceling author.
[0:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She works as a professor at the University of Maryland, and she has been featured more places than I could possibly name here.
[0:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They will all be in the show notes as will be the link to both her book Botanic.
[0:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: and her newest book worth, we get into a really important topic today of being more secure ish.
[0:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Dr. Franco will explain why being secure is not necessarily the goal because none of us is secure all the time.
[1:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's impossible and actually that goal may be keeping you from having really good friendships, really good relationships, being happy enough, secure enough.
[1:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: and secure-ish as the goal being real and really acknowledging what your hang-ups are, and accepting some of them, that all of them are going to change or be healed, accepting some of them incorporating them into your relationships, being honest about them, but also dealing with some of the ones that
[1:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: maybe have been plaguing you, affecting yourself worth, and don't have to, because the goal isn't to completely get rid of everything and never have moments of being self-conscious and feeling unworthy.
[1:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So here we have Marissa, who I've known for a while now, so I'm calling her Marissa from this point on in the episode to talk about some of the parts of her book worth that really suck out to me with one story in particular.
[1:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So join us, please.
[1:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Hi, Marissa,
[2:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I love having a repeat guest, especially one as knowledgeable and as famous in the friendship world as you are.
[2:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, what's Hannaq was just like a firecracker.
[2:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: People still talk to me about it all the time.
[2:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And sometimes people even have the nerve to suggest it to me.
[2:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'm like, oh, are you, are you kidding?
[2:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I read it before I came out and had a nurse on the show.
[2:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then I'm like, oh, you did.
[2:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Anyway, welcome back, but we are here to discuss your newest book worth, which is out in the world.
[2:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Everyone should go get it because what it's doing is something a little different than platonic, and that's where I want you to begin.
[2:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Why this book?
[2:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Why now?
[2:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Tell us that part.
[2:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, so when I rip a tonic, there's this theory that I didn't get to include in the book, it was the one that got away, and it was called Self-Arabication Theory, which jargany way of saying that we look for people to verify our sense of self.
[2:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that means, if you feel badly about yourself in some ways, you might be drawn to people who
[3:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: treat you more poorly.
[3:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because if people treat you too well, you're sort of like they don't know me.
[3:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They're going to figure out who I really am.
[3:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm going to let them down.
[3:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's all the scientists at the Tory anxiety.
[3:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so there's interesting research for example that people can interact with someone that sees them positively or negatively and the lower yourself worth the more you choose the person that sees you more negatively.
[3:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Or,
[3:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: people were part being less committed to a spouse that sees them too positively if they have low self worth.
[3:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I realize from that that our ability to build really to put others isn't just about how we're treating them but about our relationship inward as well.
[3:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you talk about, would you say this connects to the good twin, bad twin, peace, and we explain that to the audience?
[3:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, so as I'm writing this book on self-worth, I'm diving deep into the research on self-esteem.
[3:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And interestingly, I find that people that report high self-esteem, there's two very different profiles.
[3:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I call them the good twin and the bad twin.
[3:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: One type that reports high self-esteem, they're sort of ego-tistical.
[4:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They try to be better than everyone, very hostile, actually have very struggling relationships, very defensive, one, and I call the good twin of self-esteem.
[4:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They have the best relationships, better than people of any other type of self-esteem.
[4:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They are compassionate towards people and pathic, non-defensive, able to take accountability.
[4:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They are the kind of self-steem we want, where you both feel good about yourself, and you treat everyone else positively.
[4:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so I'm trying to understand why are these two different profiles of people saying that they both feel so good about themselves, but their relationships with others are manifesting so differently.
[4:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I go to one of my colleagues Beth and I'm like, what do you know, these bad twins?
[4:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They say they feel so secure, so good, but they're treating everyone so badly, so maybe it's not true.
[4:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And she says to me, I'm trying to think about what I'm defensive.
[4:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What I feel inside is a lot of shame, someone triggered that shame.
[4:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And in that moment, something makes sense to me, which I see Beth as one of the good twins.
[4:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I'm seeing how it's not that none of us feel the urge to be hostile or defensive.
[5:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: All of us has those bad twin type urges, but someone like Beth is able to acknowledge those feelings.
[5:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: so that they don't hijack her and take over.
[5:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so here's what the people of high self worth who also treated people more positively.
[5:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They had a unique relationship with their feelings and experiences, where they were very open to their own internal world.
[5:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They weren't trying to push feelings away.
[5:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They were trying, almost...
[5:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, one person I interviewed who's secure said they would sort of like move their hand over their day and see where their emotional energy lied like they were trying to know every feeling in themselves because that was a part of themselves.
[5:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They didn't want to lose and made them treat people better because you can only regulate feelings that you're willing to acknowledge.
[5:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, the argument for actually exploring your feelings and your reactions and your history and then dealing with it instead of stuffing it.
[5:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, that's what makes all the difference.
[5:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So one of the stories in your book really stuck with me and actually haunted me for days.
[6:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It did.
[6:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I felt her feelings and there are several stories in the book and this is just the sake of the listeners that I think listeners will be able to relate to, especially if you are working and a lot of my listeners are.
[6:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's why I was really excited about this episode working on having more secure friendships.
[6:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I've done episodes on anxious attachment.
[6:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You and I spoke a lot about attachment theory in our first episode, and really you and I specifically talked more about how to deal with conflict in our friendship.
[6:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Plotonic had a lot more about attachment theory.
[6:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then I get the same question over and over again.
[6:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But how do I have more secure friendship?
[6:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like, anyone who's kind of dealt with this information maybe accepts why they're so anxious and friendships or avoidant, but it's like, okay, but how on the secure?
[6:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I thought as me, who is the one I have in mind, was a wonderful example of a really difficult situation that would make anyone anxious or avoidant or both.
[6:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yep.
[6:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then how she worked towards becoming more secure and let's discuss it.
[6:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, sure.
[6:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So as may someone I interviewed, she had a sort of peculiar story.
[7:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She was hanging out with a new friend and she said to that new friend, Hey, you're going to have to initiate all future interactions.
[7:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I can't because of this one thing that happened when I was younger in middle school that has kind of stuck in my head ever since.
[7:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so when as may was younger, she had a new friend and she would call that friend every day and say,
[7:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Hey, how's it going?
[7:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Here's my, here's what stood out to me.
[7:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Here's the boy that I have a crush on and she's calling a friend every day until one day that friend is like, I don't know why you call me.
[7:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're not friends.
[7:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Just have to pause on that.
[7:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That is the part when you're reading it.
[7:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: because when you're reading, I said to add a little more color to it, is as may really felt there were close friends.
[7:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's why she called her every day.
[7:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: All day every day to tell her everything.
[7:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like, I would call my friend and just download my day.
[7:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't remember if the friend ever shared back.
[7:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think no, probably in hindsight, but as may didn't, you know, maybe realize that.
[7:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And the friend, yes, so that just to repeat when Marissa said in the friends,
[8:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, so horrifying and devastating.
[8:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But it was that one memory that in every friendship since, as May is now afraid that they're not really friends.
[8:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That anyone she interacts with just doesn't secretly doesn't like them.
[8:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She's battled a lot of insecurities.
[8:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When she meets someone she really likes, she can't really move towards that person because of this niggling fear since that moment happened that whoever she likes and tries to be friends
[8:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she had missed it.
[8:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Me and the girl was, by the way, if I were giving advice to someone like this and she said, I call my friend every day because this is the kind of stuff people say to me, I call this person every day.
[8:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They don't really share back.
[8:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They never initiate, I hear this a lot.
[8:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They never initiate, ever, ever.
[8:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I actually spend a lot of episodes trying to get people to not try to look for a tipper tap, but truly, that's never.
[8:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And the person that more so, if the person doesn't share in the conversation, maybe this person did think they were giving her a message.
[9:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I can see how as me would be like, well, wait, shoot.
[9:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I missed it.
[9:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But she was young.
[9:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She was young.
[9:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[9:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I guess if we define traumatic as something that continues to affect the way you see yourself and others since that event, then it was for as me, who really still struggles with friendship and doesn't reach out.
[9:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And as me is kind of an acquaintance of mine, who I really like, but I get frustrated because I'm like, she never just thought to me.
[9:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So yeah, so she's like people don't want to hear for me because I'm they don't see really like me and I'm like I would love to hear from you more, but that's how our memories work, that's how our history works.
[9:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is so big because of I don't want to make this whole episode about reciprocity just because so many of mine are, but listeners I need you to hear this, that one of the reasons sometimes people might not reach out and it's true in this example is this lack of self-worth.
[9:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: the person isn't going to want to hear from me.
[9:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's maybe why they don't reach out.
[9:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Of course, that's not you for everyone, but it is something to consider.
[10:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[10:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So back to Asme and how what you realized about this traumatic experience that had to get dealt with.
[10:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So, as name is really my intro into the theory of the book.
[10:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was trying to really understand why people have this low self worth, why people reject people that love them and value them.
[10:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It doesn't really make sense.
[10:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you had low self, wouldn't you want people that compliment you and value?
[10:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, it just doesn't really make any sense.
[10:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So as I did my research, I came across the answer to why people have self-worth and it's memories.
[10:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Researchers say memories are the database of self-esteem.
[10:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so obviously, as may have these memories, this memory that, you know, as researchers say, other researchers say, memories don't just record the past, but they predict the future.
[10:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So we've had this negative experience and we're like, I'm gonna get rejected again.
[10:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They're gonna not like me again.
[10:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They're gonna tell me we're not really friends again, right?
[10:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: we are almost not living in reality as much as we are living in the reality of our memories as May's story really shows.
[11:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now the issue, of course, is that maybe that inciting memory was the anomaly.
[11:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So everything in your life moving forward is actually miscalibrated if you're working off of that memory.
[11:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We have to find a way to live in the present.
[11:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now this can sound like really bad news for people because we can change the past, but
[11:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You actually can, in a way, in that if memories are made to predict the future and not record the past, then they can be updated with more information.
[11:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I came across the theory called memory-reconsolidation theory, which is that every time you read visit a memory, you can change the emotion of it in your brain.
[11:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I had, as May, I said, what would you like say to yourself, if you could go back to that moment as an adult, what would you say to yourself, say to your younger self?
[11:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: she was sort of like, it was one tiny blip, it doesn't define you forever.
[11:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It doesn't mean everyone will react to you that way.
[11:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so those are the exercises that I share in the book.
[11:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: These research-backed exercises of finding a way to go back to the memory and change the memory, which research finds has not only led to increase self-esteem for the people that do it, but it also,
[12:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: At the neural level, you can see changes in the brain, the part of the brain that records memories.
[12:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's actual changes in the brain when you go back and you re-consolidate or change some of these negative memories that have shaped the way that you build relationships.
[12:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I found that so fascinating and the concept of an open memory versus a close memory.
[12:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Can you explain that?
[12:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The reality is, it's not all of our memories that continue to shape how we perceive reality now.
[12:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's open memories.
[12:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What is an open memory?
[12:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's one that you don't really have closure on.
[12:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's one that still makes you feel some sort of strong emotion.
[12:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Maybe you don't think about it, because it makes you uncomfortable, makes you feel ashamed, makes you feel anxious, makes you feel angry.
[12:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Those memories, it's really that they have unprocessed emotions in them.
[12:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Those are the memories that continue to shape how we see reality now.
[12:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's a study where people wrote down memories of negative experiences they've had, maybe someone who, a theft they had in their house, their house, fire, bring down their house.
[13:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And they found that it wasn't the negativity of the memory that led to people reporting low self-esteem after they wrote about it.
[13:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But it was the extent to which the memory was closed or open.
[13:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If people reported on a memory and they also said, they're confused about what happens, still makes them set to think about it.
[13:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: All of these aspects of an open memory.
[13:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: after sharing about the memory.
[13:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So the goal then is to close all of our open memories and memory reconciliation is really way to do that.
[13:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So the past is actually in the past and our prior friendship issues, struggles, problems are no longer shaping reality now.
[13:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: you know it just stands out to me is how so many friendship issues they're between two people so again using as make is now we have a concrete example like we have no idea what made that other girl say that who knows what was going on in her life and who knows how many people were counting on this girl and maybe calling her and needing her and this girl was just like I can't take anymore and maybe if as may had become her friend two years later or two years earlier that wouldn't have happened I'm just making up a scenario
[14:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Meaning that we actually don't ever really know what the other person actually you and I spoke about this a bit in our first episode is One way to know is to talk about it with the person, but even then you don't know for sure You're getting the full story and we do a lot to protect ourselves and protect it's even if someone comes to us But this idea that there's hope to close the memory
[14:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: With all you can do with your part of it, you can't control the other person.
[14:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You all you can do is your part of it.
[14:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Do you find that people can accomplish this without therapy or is that pretty much the only way?
[14:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, my book, I give them step-by-step instructions, so I would say I think so.
[14:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think he's supposed to do the audio, too, by the way.
[14:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: As I was reading your book, and because I got a chance to read it before it was out in the public, and now people can do the audio, I was thinking like, this would have been really cool to go through with your voice step-by-step.
[15:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I could have paused it, so people should do both, because you're going to want the written version, too, but I think it would be helpful to have your, are you reading your audio?
[15:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, I'm going to be reading it.
[15:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I figured.
[15:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: though you can we can do it together everybody.
[15:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Seriously, but yeah, I would say if it's a memory where in they completely overwhelms you, you're getting really disregulated and you feel like you shut down when you try to open the memory then that's something to maybe seek help with.
[15:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've done the all of the activities in the book with friends.
[15:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: found them very transformative, all of us cried, going back and seeing negative memories, the kind of things that we recontalitated were things like bullying, right?
[15:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it was harmful, but not necessarily something I were shutting down about when we read is it?
[15:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Or, you know, I talked about my mom always used to pick me up late from soccer and how that affected me.
[15:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it's very fascinating when you do it, because there's a lot of things or experiences we have that we might think that we've gotten over, but when we actually go deep,
[16:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: into what that experience was like for us at that time, which is we're forming these foundational memories at a time when we're also very emotionally vulnerable.
[16:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're young, right?
[16:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's not like an adult going through this experience.
[16:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's a young person and it's our experience of it at the time.
[16:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's not our experience looking back on what would that be like as an adult for me to experience now.
[16:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, you'll be surprised.
[16:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You'll be surprised at the types of emotions that end up coming up when you revisit some of your friendship pains or your relationship pains from the past.
[16:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like time travel at the but next best thing, we can't really, you know, I did it for something and this isn't really about friendship, but it's about it still has to do with self worth.
[16:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And when I was going through the exercises, I wish I could remember exactly which one because listeners, mercy has several at the end of different chapters of different exercises to deal with these memories and different things.
[16:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So this is, I'd never talked about this particular one on the show and I didn't even think about it until I was reading the book.
[16:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So when I was a freshman in college and we were walking back to our dorm, a guy who I was friendly with.
[17:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, he was just being friendly.
[17:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It wasn't like a not saying this like a physical assault or anything.
[17:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He squeezed the side of my body just to be like, hey, you know the way you smell squeezed someone's arm is squeezed like the side of my body.
[17:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And
[17:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He went whoa because there was something to squeeze like it wasn't I wasn't skin and bones, you know, like I definitely wasn't skin and bones.
[17:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was probably 20 pounds overweight and he squeezed the sign went whoa out loud in front of people that memory.
[17:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: is one that I feel like I've pushed away for years because it just made me feel so embarrassed.
[17:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, I didn't confirm for me at the time something I already worried about, which was my weight, which as a girl is just hard anyway, but to have someone actually say it out loud, it reminded me of the Azme story.
[17:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Even though mine had nothing to do with friendship, what's similar in both stories is somebody said out loud and nagging fear of making
[17:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[17:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I wonder if as Neha had any fears, maybe she did notice at the time.
[18:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, you know, this girl never calls me first never really says anything about her life.
[18:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, but she picks up the phone.
[18:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it's like, okay, maybe she likes me, but maybe she doesn't, like maybe as Neha did worry about it.
[18:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And just like I did worry about my weight to have somebody say out loud.
[18:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: whoa when they like touch your body and not in a positive way.
[18:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm 49 years old.
[18:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was 18.
[18:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It is like crystal clear.
[18:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The exercise has gave me the prompt to sort of think about what I might have said at the time.
[18:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know, and like what?
[18:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Do you want to share?
[18:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: At least what I said, that is so rude.
[18:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I would go to them, bear us to him back, consider taking it and holding it in is like a piece of shame.
[18:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think I should have, I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, but I think it would help me.
[18:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think I should have shamed him in front of everyone for having the audacity.
[18:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Why should I feel ashamed, but that was rude.
[18:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, so that's what I would have done, and it forced me to think about it.
[18:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, and you know what?
[18:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I love your example because it shows a couple of things, which is one that I don't know, people often think of something traumatized.
[19:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're talking about little tea traumas.
[19:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I continue to affect you as like, you know, you fear for your life, but like, it's the it's these quote unquote little things that aren't little for you and that's totally okay.
[19:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think sometimes we especially if you're Englishley touch you're invalidating the harmful things and so you're not even looking at them because you think why am I having this reaction and stuff.
[19:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I love your example because it's, it's just matters because it affects you and there's no objective activity to whether it should matter or not.
[19:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And the second thing that I really like that you did, which is when you reconsidering to memory, the other person is it there.
[19:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So go, buckwheels, if you want to yell, if you want to scream, if you want to shame someone, you wouldn't do this in your daily life.
[19:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But it's okay to do it for your psyche because they're literally not even there, right?
[19:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's, that's what you need to heal.
[19:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like,
[19:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's no one harmed and there's only someone who benefits.
[19:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I like the way that you describe that because I think it reveals some core principles of memory reconciliation.
[19:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, good.
[19:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thank you.
[19:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: When, as May said this to this friend, you're going to have to initiate all the time.
[20:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What happened?
[20:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't remember.
[20:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What did the friend say?
[20:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Was the friend like, actually no?
[20:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm not going to do that.
[20:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I think the friend was happy to initiate realizing that as May was invested in the friendship with Jay, having that communicated more clearly, I think didn't leave Jay in a place of wondering, does as May want to hear from me or not, but just was able to kind of, because I think the hard part I'm sure you know about lack of reciprocity is like, do we interpret as this person doesn't like us?
[20:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because sometimes it means that or is it this person itself worth issues?
[20:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So as May made it clear, and it was interesting because when I interviewed Jay,
[20:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Later, these insecurities kept coming up as they had a bachelor at party.
[20:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was like, oh, I don't want to do anything.
[20:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Nobody wants to come celebrate me.
[20:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And Jay's like, what are you talking about?
[20:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We would love the opportunity to celebrate you.
[20:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It kept playing out in different ways throughout their friendship.
[20:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I think Jay kind of understood as me, and that's really what makes their friendship work.
[20:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, communication.
[20:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, that's almost always the answer.
[20:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's communicating and I she was lucky that Jay did it in mind, but I could see why if you communicate it really clearly what this need is.
[21:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I often am telling people and I think it's good advice because reciprocity is such a big one and people have so many hangups about it.
[21:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You have to at least maybe talk to your friends and say, I feel like I'm always the one reaching out.
[21:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Give them the opportunity and maybe you only just need to hear the one time, no, I really want you to.
[21:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I don't for this reason, either the self-worth or all the other reasons people have that they don't reach out for us.
[21:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oftentimes it's not something as deep as self-worth.
[21:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's just a lack of organization.
[21:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I true.
[21:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Either way, it's that personal a lot of the time.
[21:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And of course, sometimes it is.
[21:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that's what is very, very, very tricky.
[21:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that's why we don't just have one friend.
[21:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So we can't invest in just one person because, yeah, you need a variety.
[21:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: People who are more organized, people who do reach out more are some don't.
[21:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Sometimes you have to be the one to reach out more.
[21:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's yeah.
[21:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's how it is.
[21:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, it kind of reminds me of one of the principles of the book, which is that I tell people not to be secure but secure.
[21:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Sometimes secure attachment has become the status symbol and the research isn't being used the way that it was intended where now it's like, I'm secure, I'm secure, I'm secure, I like coercive security, compulsive security, so much so that we ignore the parts of ourselves that are anxious or avoidant and then enact internally than neglect.
[22:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: or the shame when we treat our insecure parts that way that we experience to become anxious or avoid it.
[22:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so it's not about feeling like I have to be secure.
[22:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's about acknowledging the ways that you aren't.
[22:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So you can care for those parts of you and you should even invite other people to care for those parts of you too.
[22:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's much more about becoming real and I try to almost have no hierarchy when it comes to attachment cells.
[22:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's just about what you are because that reveals what your needs are and that reveals what you need in relationship to being secure as it necessarily better.
[22:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's just about where you are.
[22:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so I think that's what a move that I really like that as they made is that.
[22:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She's able to admit that she's anxious and I think the issue with insecure attachment cells they really come out when you start acting out when you don't say oh I'm afraid of rejection so if you don't reach out like that's why but you just pull away from your friend because you think they don't like you right that's what really damages the friendship the acting out and the lack of communication and the trying to push away our triggers rather than allowing ourselves to look at them.
[23:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's so powerful, being secure-ish, which I also loved in the book, and real, is the goal.
[23:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Not having to be secure all the time.
[23:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Who is secure all the time?
[23:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: No, I didn't.
[23:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: No, buddy.
[23:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: No, buddy.
[23:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh my gosh, this is to say to you, and the listeners, I have to, even in all this work, I do on friendship and giving advice to other people, still, and I know you relate to this, because you're right about it in the book too.
[23:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I still have to self-talk when I,
[23:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm talking to my own friends and they mentioned something they did together or that they're about to do together Oh, we're doing this on Saturday night, or we did this on Saturday night, or I'll know that friends were together Friday night and Saturday night I feel like there's little sense of oh Why didn't anybody reach out to us and then I self talk out of it?
[24:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's the only difference.
[24:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's not that I'm so much more secure at all than all the people I talk to it's that I have
[24:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Developed a self-talk that is very helpful and the self-talk is all the things I tell other people not everyone could be together all the time That wouldn't even be fun.
[24:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't reach out to every single person every time I'm doing something because I don't like being a huge group So I have to give that grace to other people and people still like you and you know it's all this
[24:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: all of this we still have to do and you talk a little bit in the book about what really prompted some of this work if you're comfortable i mean what you wrote about it i think i forced myself to try to be secure in ways that it alienated me from who i truly was in a relationship i was in
[24:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: during the COVID pandemic where he really pulled away and shut down and my response was like, what does this a cure girlfriend do?
[24:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Tries to co-regulate, which is like regulate him and myself, tries to express curiosity, use eye statements, right?
[24:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was so focused on anchoring him that I wasn't able to acknowledge, hey, this is hurting me.
[25:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm feeling really neglected.
[25:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I need more communication, because he just would kind of get grumpy and give me the silent treatments sometimes.
[25:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I say the securish thing that I said in that relationship was that I wanted to leave it because it was the thing that was finally real for me.
[25:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think you could listen to a lot of relationship advice and you can use it as a weapon against the self.
[25:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: A lot of all of our relationship advice should start with you in terms of you saying to yourself,
[25:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Can I apply this in a way that works for me?
[25:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: For example, I think that I was trying to give Grace it in so much that I was losing Grace for myself.
[25:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Sometimes I'll check it myself.
[25:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Do I have the capacity to give Grace, right?
[25:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Can I do that in a way that feels like it's in an act of integrity with myself?
[25:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And sometimes the answer is yes.
[25:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Sometimes the answer is no.
[25:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I kind of just want to do encourage people.
[25:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think what's missing maybe in the secure attachment.
[25:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Dialogue sometimes is like, there is great advice.
[25:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've given it on how to communicate well
[25:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: work through problems really well, but the first thing to do is to get clarity inward as to what are your needs.
[26:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What do you want?
[26:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What feelings are coming up for you, right?
[26:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And does this advice coordinate?
[26:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Does it align with what you really how you really feel?
[26:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And for me, doing this whole co-regulation, being the perfect anger thing, I wasn't anchored.
[26:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I didn't feel that internally.
[26:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so I should have instead expressed the truth.
[26:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: so powerful.
[26:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Exactly.
[26:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You've got to start with you.
[26:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Was there anything else that you feel the book was in reaction to that you want to say here from what you were seeing out in the world?
[26:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[26:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh my gosh.
[26:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So much stuff.
[26:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, I think it really counters a lot of the advice that we get on self-worth, which was like finding this research on people with low self-worth when they
[26:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: positive events happen to them.
[26:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They get sicker months later.
[26:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When they get positive feedback, their blood pressure rises.
[26:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When they're successful, or they think about an experience of success, they get more anxious that, oh, now I'm going to fail the next time.
[26:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now I'm going to fail the next time.
[27:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And yeah, and so for me, because I have friends that they also will reject compliments, the very thing that you think would raise your worth.
[27:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I have friends that would do these kind of things,
[27:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: you have to take my compliments, which is not the way to give a company.
[27:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I got called out by affection researcher who said one part of affection is they receive and if they don't receive it, it's more about you than them, right?
[27:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because you're not actually trying to give them a begin.
[27:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I realize that when you're dealing with friends who maybe have self-worth issues and you're trying to give them a pep talk to raise them out of it,
[27:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: that can be very threatening for them because again their memories are predicting that they're going to be rejected at the end of the day and how their brain is interpreting it is you're trying to pull me in to feel better on myself so I get crushed more when I'm ultimately rejected because that's what my past tells me.
[27:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So now I notice that when I try to reassure some oh no you're great I don't think about yourself that oh no like you know you're awesome I notice when they
[27:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: have a retort where they're like, oh, but no, that's just how I feel.
[27:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I pause and I try to just validate, of course, you feel that way, right?
[28:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Of course, you're boss talking to you that way, made you hurt.
[28:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Of course, it's okay to have insecurities.
[28:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's okay to feel the way that you do.
[28:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When we have low self-worth, often what we really need is to feel understood in that low self-worth, rather than someone trying to get us out of it.
[28:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What do you do about a friendship?
[28:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Where the person really does have such a low self-worth that is affecting the friendship and they aren't going to necessarily do the work that it would take for them to heal that and it's affecting the friendship.
[28:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I just wrote about this and I titled it The Reassurance Trap.
[28:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was just thinking about how exhausting it can be for a friend.
[28:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If the other friend needs constant reassurance about the friendship itself.
[28:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Hmm.
[28:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I could see someone like as maybe having this issue with certain friends and actually she said it directly to Jay, which was great.
[28:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But if she hadn't, let's think about a scenario when she had not said anything to Jay, and Jay had to constantly convince as me that she wanted to be friends, at what point does the Jay in this situation?
[29:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[29:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Just kind of go, I can't take any more and you kind of want to blame them.
[29:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, well, this is where I feel like connecting to ourselves is really helpful because sometimes you might have the capacity to write a lot of reassurance and sometimes you don't and you have to understand where your own line is.
[29:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've had this with friends where if it gets to a line where the desire for reassurance is almost making you feel misunderstood because you're like, I've just been here loving you this whole time.
[29:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You keep talking that you don't feel loved or
[29:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: that you're insecure.
[29:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so just be able to share with that friend.
[29:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I love you.
[29:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've always loved you and felt so close to you.
[29:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think with the amount of acid for reassurance that's coming up for me is I'm feeling misunderstood because those requests are suggesting to me that it's not coming off that way that I love you as much as I do.
[29:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: maybe what moving forward, I can be very transparent if there's ever an issue between us.
[29:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then you know if that's not something that I'm bringing up that I am invested in this friendship and I'm here.
[30:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Bringing up that conversation whenever it's something's leading you to pull away from the friendship, I always think it's so much kinder to just offer that to your friend, because then you at least give them the chance to repair.
[30:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, rather than just pulling away and now your friend who needs a lot of reassurance has the option to A, maybe not ask as much, or B, trust that you'll bring it up if there's a problem.
[30:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's great advice.
[30:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The I statement, I think this is permission to people that you can say to a friend, I feel this understood or another thing I'm hearing in this example and I hear in real life is we feel under appreciated sometimes.
[30:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I am calling a lot.
[30:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I am texting back pretty quickly.
[30:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: pretty available.
[30:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Am I available all the time every time?
[30:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: No, but the things we do have to count.
[30:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I often tell people, let the stuff your friends are doing count.
[30:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It would be understandable that someone would give up and pull away if they feel like everything they do is starting from zero each time.
[30:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The other friend feels a sense of relief in that moment.
[31:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, okay, few.
[31:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She texted me back quickly this time.
[31:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But then the next time,
[31:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: back to zero and all the other times that you were quick to respond didn't count because this time, you were busy, but if you were the friend in that situation where you feel like the other friend needs too much, it would be kind to talk about it and maybe give that friend a chance to
[31:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: to trust you a little more.
[31:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, I was just wanting to add, it's really important for us to think about, and this is a may have learned from writing the book too, is my reaction here coming from something I'm assuming or something that actually happened because I realized how,
[31:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Self-worth.
[31:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It creates its own sense of reality that's really beyond it outside of what's actually happening.
[31:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so, recognizing that, for example, if your friends give you a compliment that doesn't resonate with your sense of self-worth, what you're probably going to do is reject it.
[31:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've realized that just because it doesn't necessarily reflect how, does it mean it's wrong?
[31:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Or if you're making an assumption about, oh, they just invited me because it's a pity invite, it's disingenuous.
[32:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's a assumption that's maybe more about your own feelings about yourself than about how your friends actually feel about you.
[32:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's research that finds that people's view of how their romantic partner sees them, most strongly correlates with their own, how they see themselves, then how their romantic partner actually sees them.
[32:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so we have to have a lot of humility around our assumptions about how people view us, how people are responding to us, what people really think about us, recognizing that it's not necessarily true, as in this person definitely feels that way, because I think they're feeling that way, but rather often a
[32:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: reflection of our own sense of self, and how that sense of self is trying to protect us, I guess, in a way.
[32:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because I think when the conflict really goes to rise is when you have a set of assumptions about how the other person's engaging in the relationship and you no longer hear their reality anymore.
[32:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I hear that, you know, those are disingenuous invite or you treat me so badly, you don't, you know, you don't reach out versus the other person being like, oh my god, I've been having 12 hour work days.
[33:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just encourage understanding the sense of self more and how it is the sort of root of all of our projections as to what's really happening for us to just leave a little bit of room for humility and oxygen and for me it's often okay.
[33:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Are somebody something's here about what's actually happening?
[33:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What has tangibly happened to suggest that this person is upset with me doesn't like me?
[33:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, just be open to different ways of seeing.
[33:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's a great message to end on humility as huge.
[33:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, it cannot be overstated.
[33:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It would solve a lot of issues.
[33:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We just don't know.
[33:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I even tried to give that two as many as middle school friends, right?
[33:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like that we actually don't even know what preceded her just being fed up and who knows what was going on in her life that director heard or say something like that.
[33:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And maybe credit to her for not dragging as me along all through middle school in high school.
[33:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, that would have been a different story.
[33:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: As me, just a good example.
[34:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I appreciate that she was open to having this example in the book, because I think it's so relatable to people.
[34:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Ultimately, read the book, go through the exercises, and really consider what our open memory is still.
[34:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think that's a huge measure of the book.
[34:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's to confront those open memories in yourself.
[34:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think finding worth ironically is about being okay with being insecure.
[34:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Being more okay with feeling unworthy, being okay with being flawed.
[34:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's not the unworthiness that gets to us as much as it is the feelings of shame around it.
[34:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I hope that if you're anxious, if you're void in, if you have insecurities,
[34:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We all do.
[34:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that's part of the human experience.
[34:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Welcome.
[34:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Welcome to being a human.
[34:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I hope that the book really gives you transformative ways to navigate some of those things.
[34:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But there was never anything wrong with you aside from the fact that you thought that something was wrong with you.
[34:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, that's beautiful.
[34:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Dr. Marissa Franco.
[34:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thank you so much for being here.
[34:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Again, I will link our old episode and I'll be here waiting for you when the next book comes out.
[35:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: My pleasure.
[35:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Bye Nina.
[35:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Bye.
[35:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Hey, listeners, thanks for being here to have Dr. Marissa Franco on for the second time.
[35:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'll have that other episode link in the show note, which was about conflict and coming to your friends with conflict and give them the chance to explain themselves and apologize and you apologize and just being honest about your feelings, which is related to this episode too.
[35:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can find Marissa at Dr. Marissa G. Franco on Instagram.
[35:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's one S and don't forget the G.
[35:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm at Diorneena Friendship on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube and all the places.
[35:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: As always, you can join my Facebook group, Diorneena, the group where people write a lot of anonymous questions, people write them under their own name too, and lots of listeners chime into answer.
[35:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's a really beautiful community that's come together.
[35:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Over these five plus years, over five years now of the podcast.
[35:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thanks for being here.
[35:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: See you next week when our

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