# #209 - Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Kids and Adults (Caroline Maguire)

An episode of [Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1576473592), 30 Aug 2026, 48 min.

Audio: https://audio3.redcircle.com/episodes/a1628edf-9540-4588-99e2-7f76d9054234/stream.mp3

I’ve spoken before on Dear Nina about neurodiversity and friendship with several fantastic guests, but I wanted to have a conversation that could speak both to parents raising neurodivergent kids and to neurodivergent adults navigating friendship themselves. Caroline Maguire is an internationally recognized expert in social-emotional learning, ADHD, coaching, and relationship development. She’s the author of Why Will No One Play With Me? and most recently, Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults. We talked about encouraging friendship without forcing it, finding environments where connection comes more naturally, handling rejection, understanding the difference between an acquaintance and a friend, and taking those sometimes-awkward next steps that help a friendship grow. What I especially loved about Caroline’s approach is that friendship skills aren’t about becoming someone else. They’re about understanding yourself, building confidence, and finding the people who appreciate you as you are. LINKS & RESOURCES: • Caroline's book: Why Will No One Play With Me? and Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults. • Caroline on Instagram @authorcarolinem • Episode #110. Neurodiversity and Friendships: Dr. James Richardson • Episode #187: How ADHD Affects Adult Friendships--For People With ADHD and Their Friends: Cate Osborn and Erik Gude MEET CAROLINE MAGUIRE: Caroline Maguire, M.Ed., ACCG, PCC is an internationally recognized expert in social-emotional learning, ADHD coaching, and relationship development. She is the author of the award-winning book, Why Will No One Play with Me? and FRIENDSHIP SKILLS FOR NEURODIVERGENT ADULTS (Balance Books), and hosts The ADHD Social Playbook podcast. An educator, coach, and sought-after speaker, Caroline developed a comprehensive Social Emotional Learning (SEL) training methodology that equips parents, clinicians, and educators with practical tools to build self-awareness, emotional regulation, social understanding, and meaningful relationships. As a neurodivergent person with ADHD, dyslexia, and learning disabilities, she brings both professional expertise and lived experience to her work. ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO !! Catch up on all Dear Nina episodes on Apple and Spotify 📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina 🔎 Information on any upcoming "Dear Nina Live" events 🎈 Celebrate your friend on the show by dedicating a week of episodes! 📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack ❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group 📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question 📪 email: dearninapodcast@gmail.com 🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? That’s probably here. Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

## Transcript

[0:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Welcome to Dernina, Conversations of Our Friendship.
[0:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I am your host, Edith Addson.
[0:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I have done a few episodes on Nora Diversity and Friendship, of course, is always the ankle.
[0:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I will have those in the show notes.
[0:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: My more recent one was specifically on A&E HD and Friendship, with Kate Osborne and Eric Good.
[0:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: but I knew I wanted to do another episode with a different guest focused a little bit more for parents who are raising neurodivergent kids and teens.
[0:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And this episode speaks to adults as well.
[0:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I am thrilled.
[0:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Really thrilled to have Caroline McGuire.
[0:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She is so well versed in these topics.
[0:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Caroline is an internationally recognized expert in social emotional learning, ADHD coaching her relationship development.
[0:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She is the author of the award-winning book, Why Will No One Play With Me, and her second book, her current book, is Friendship Skills for Nora DeVergent Adults.
[0:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Caroline is an educator and a coach and a sought after speaker.
[1:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think you'll understand within minutes why I wanted to have her on the show to speak to the dear Nina listeners.
[1:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Some of the questions came from listeners.
[1:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Some are coming from me.
[1:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm so grateful to have Caroline and her wisdom and her really specific coaching here with us today.
[1:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Hi Caroline, welcome to Dear Nina.
[1:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Thanks so much for having me.
[1:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm excited to be here.
[1:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Before we dive into you telling us exactly what you do and how you've got to be doing that, can I read you something from your book that really touched me?
[1:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh my god, yes, that's so beautiful.
[1:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I love it.
[1:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And listeners, when you hear this, just know this is just a taste of what the whole book is like.
[1:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Trying to make friends is not a comfortable process, while equally not having friends is also uncomfortable.
[1:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And just as there is discomfort in making friends, there are also pain points.
[1:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then I'm skipping a little bit, the pain comes at different points.
[1:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The pain of going for test at the doctor's office and then getting the news and the doctor wants to see you again
[1:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The pain of finally getting a raise, and there is no one to celebrate with or to commiserate with, when your demonic boss acts a fool once more.
[2:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The pain of no one calling on your birthday.
[2:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, you got some texts, but no one called to sing you happy birthday and be silly while telling you to go treat yourself to something fabulous.
[2:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The pain of not having a go-to person, for everything from printer issues, yes, that's still a thing, to a concert or to a drive home chat.
[2:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The pain that comes when you feel like an outsider, or like no one gets you, and you worry that you're so different, that you'll never belong, or feel included.
[2:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And even when you plan every move, script out your words, and plan for the right things to say, it's impossible to get it right all the time, which is why so many people stop trying at all.
[2:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So that is the context under which we are having this conversation people want to belong.
[2:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think that your book gives a message that you can belong just as you are.
[2:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's a beautiful message, but it takes some work and discussion and how did you get to do this work and tell us about yourself?
[3:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, first of all, I loved that you read that because that was probably the chapter I spent the most time on was that first chapter.
[3:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so thank you so much because that was incredibly validated.
[3:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And the reason that I wrote that chapter and why I do this work is because I was a left-out kid.
[3:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was a kid who didn't have friends.
[3:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I have ADHD, I'm dyslexic.
[3:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was definitely a little unique.
[3:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm an only child, and I spent most of my time with my grandparents and my parents, and when you're an only child, you know, you do things like going and taking it.
[3:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I went here and not necessarily up on the latest stuff.
[3:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I definitely was kind of a unique person and an old soul.
[3:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I just didn't have friends.
[3:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I evolved, and I learned how to make friends, and I had an easier time as I got older, although I still struggle with certain things.
[3:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When I started coaching 21 years ago as an ADHD coach, none of my clients had friends.
[4:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just started talking about it, and at the time I was very fortunate I worked for Dr. Ned Hollow, who's a very famous ADHD psychiatrist.
[4:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was like, why do none of these people have friends?
[4:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What's going on?
[4:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And he was like, oh, it's a huge thing in our community.
[4:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Was it adults or kids you were working with at them?
[4:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was working with kids at the time and teens, but I also started very quickly, also working with adults because within the Hall of Law Center, they had all these support groups and once everybody heard that I was working on friendship, people would say, like, I know you work with kids, but can you come to this adult group?
[4:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Can we talk about time management on Thursday nights, but everybody in this group wants to talk about friendship?
[4:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I took on adults as well,
[4:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It was like no one else was doing it.
[4:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so when no one else is doing something, sometimes you end up the person.
[4:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, who do you work with now?
[4:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What is it evolved into?
[4:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's evolved into mostly teenagers and young adults and adults.
[5:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I do sometimes work with kids, I train people to work with kids, I, you know, my master's degrees covers all these different areas.
[5:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: After the pandemic, I stopped working in person with people, basically because my family begged me, because I worked here in this office, and they were like, please, we don't want to have to shovel the snow perfectly, and we don't have to whatever.
[5:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So when I stopped working in person, I said,
[5:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: little or kids need in person.
[5:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I train people, so I said, well, I'll refer those clients to them.
[5:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I love working with all different people.
[5:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just kept finding that adults had no guidance.
[5:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I buy every friendship book that comes out so many of them are great, but the advice doesn't apply to neurodivergent people.
[5:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's too broad and it doesn't apply to our dilemmas.
[5:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's exactly why I have you on here because yeah, I totally aware of that.
[5:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm aware of that too.
[5:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Can you tell the difference between your two books and name them too?
[5:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I may have them in the show notes, but it's good to hear it.
[6:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: short, so my first book was while no one played with me, and that was a guide for parents to help their child make friends and understand friendship.
[6:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That was more skill, heavy, more prescriptive, so parents could sort of follow the yellow brick road and teach their kids.
[6:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There were no diagnostic labels.
[6:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It focused purely on executive function, which is the management system of the breed.
[6:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because at the time, publishers wouldn't let me do a book with
[6:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now things have changed and we've grown so friendship skills for neurodivergent adults is for people who have ADHD, autistic folks, ADHD which is the ADHD autism crossover, dyslexic and learning disabilities, anxious people.
[6:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think if you see yourself in this population and you can take advice from it, come on in, we'd love to have you.
[6:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I did bring up in my Facebook group where I do have a lot of listeners who are active listeners right after my episode with Kate Osborne and Eric Good about their book ADHD field guide for adults.
[7:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I put in there, all right.
[7:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We've had a couple episodes like this now.
[7:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You guys look, what are we missing?
[7:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What are you still questions about?
[7:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mentioned I was having you on, so I was able to get some other questions.
[7:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I would say the theme that came up again again was on how to teach kids friendship skills that doesn't then force friendships on them that they're not ready for, they're not comfortable for.
[7:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'll give you like a specific question, so that is not too broad.
[7:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then we can move on from there.
[7:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: One person wrote, how can neurotypical parents?
[7:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: empathize rather than force friendships for their teenage and college age kids.
[7:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's a conversion of that came up a lot.
[7:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What they're getting at.
[7:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So we all know, yes, French is important.
[7:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What if the kid doesn't want to do anything?
[7:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What they're comfortable at home?
[7:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, and I think also we have to look at what is comfortable at home is comfortable at home.
[7:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm scared and stay at home easier.
[7:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I think forcing never works.
[7:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I think that's the right track to be on.
[8:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Forcing doesn't work.
[8:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Forcing makes you feel bad and also it often creates this elephant in the room.
[8:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Where friendship becomes this taboo topic.
[8:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: that nobody wants to talk about, I don't like to do that because I think it doesn't work.
[8:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What I prefer to do is to have parents talk about friendship in general and start asking like, what do you want out of friendships?
[8:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What makes you happy?
[8:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Who do you think your people are?
[8:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like when you're with so-and-so, name a specific person, how do you feel?
[8:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: remember so and so from the fifth grade like you really got along with them and I know they moved away but like what happened with with them?
[8:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What did you like about being with them?
[8:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What kind of person were they?
[8:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And to start talking about this as part of life and to talk about friendship and see what they want because once you can get the conversation rolling and it's not this taboo topic
[8:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: then you can look at what do you also what do you know about yourself?
[9:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Is the person a homebody okay?
[9:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So what would fill your social cup?
[9:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: How much do you need?
[9:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think in the old and days we used to sort of say everyone needs to have this like totally extroverted robust social life.
[9:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But we know now that that's not the case.
[9:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think when we have people who are
[9:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They don't want to have a million friends.
[9:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They want to have the right friends.
[9:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that's where the forcing comes in too.
[9:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: As a parent, I would ask myself sometimes, do they have friends?
[9:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And is it just that their social life doesn't look like my social life from a 1980s, right?
[9:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And as a parent, I have to do this to myself too, because there were so many things about the way I grew up and the way we were socialized that aren't as true anymore.
[9:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: we didn't have text.
[9:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Think about that.
[9:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Right?
[9:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We called people.
[9:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I would also say I would start to have conversations when your teen or young adult is really comfortable when they're playing video games, when they're crafting, when they're doing something they really like, where they're comfortable and start asking them, what would it be like to, you know, you talked about joining this, what would it be like to join that?
[10:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: start talking about activities and places and it's all in the book so they can take the book and use this as like a cheat sheet about the places where their child might find high interest activities because that's where you find your people.
[10:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It was with shared experiences and when you have people who are interested and speak the same language you do.
[10:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: it might be about helping them think through these things and one of the things I do sometimes as a parent is I'll read an exercise in a book and then I'll just turn it into sort of questions instead of saying let's sit down and do this exercise if they're really resistant I'll just be like what about this and I'll act like we're brainstorming but I've had that guidance from whatever book I was reading.
[11:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that might be something parents could do.
[11:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They can go, they can buy this book, they can see the sections where I talk about those kind of high interest activities and how you find your people, and then just talk about it and have a conversation instead of forcing.
[11:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: As a coach, have you had success with kids who have been struggling with friendships at school, but then if they join something, it helps.
[11:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, because one of the things about neurodiversity is that environment has a tremendous impact on our traits.
[11:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: For parents of ADHD and autistic kids, we tend to be like, it's not a karate school.
[11:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's the right karate school, and it might be that you drive three towns over.
[11:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's the same with friendship.
[11:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Think about elementary and middle school.
[11:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You're like with a population of people who might not be your people, or your people have a different schedule and you don't get to see them.
[12:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What can we do as parents to sort of help the environment be?
[12:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, they don't do well with soccer, everyone's playing soccer.
[12:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We don't tend to do great with team sports, but you know what they would do great with theater or they would do great with fencing.
[12:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The one in our town.
[12:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's not very neurodivergent friendly, we know the director, it's not great.
[12:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If we go to this other one, that's really neuroaffirming, really good place.
[12:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And there, that might be the right environment.
[12:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So that's part of this, we're very used to as parents, curating the environment, and as adults, we need to do the same thing.
[12:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And sometimes we don't, because we feel like, oh, I should be able to go anywhere, I'm an adult now.
[12:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But why?
[12:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We pick our coffee, we pick our breakfast.
[12:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, when you're looking at friendship, it's the same thing.
[12:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You're looking for people who sit what you want, not just any old ingredient.
[12:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What I imagine is tricky to help people with when you're coaching is, let's say they try something, they find the activity they like, and I love your advice to, again, might not be this gym, maybe it's a smaller one or one, a couple of towns over.
[13:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: How many times do you need to try a place before you know it's right for you?
[13:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think it would be easy to give up.
[13:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: How do you know when to give up and how do you know when it's really not the right place?
[13:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's what I'm asking.
[13:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, I think people give up way too quickly.
[13:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think so too.
[13:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Be like I'm afraid to say that in this.
[13:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay.
[13:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'll say it.
[13:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Thank you.
[13:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So there's a couple things.
[13:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: One, I have in the book ways to that place is ways to say is this high interest, highly interactive opportunity.
[13:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So maybe you write the person running the group and say,
[13:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, are there chances to talk, chances to make friends?
[13:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because that's part of this is, do you get to interact with other people?
[13:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Or are you kind of siloed?
[13:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Everybody knows that there's places you've been where there's a lot of interaction and chances to chat and to get to know people and then other times when there isn't.
[13:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I have that in the book so that you can that things.
[13:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you go and you go three times and you never talk to another soul, obviously that might not be the right place.
[14:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But what I tend to see from people is that activities and groups and things you join book clubs, everything is sort of, it depends on the month that depends on the day, it depends on the situation.
[14:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: if we know from a data that it takes and everybody has a different opinion about this, okay?
[14:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So there's no definitive study, but let's just take this number, 11 interactions of 30 minutes each to become friends with someone.
[14:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I would argue that's probably an activity buddy someone you're getting to know.
[14:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They're not the lifelong pal.
[14:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They're not your college roommate who you know so well because you live with them.
[14:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Then if you leave after two times, or one time it's great and one time it's not great and then you leave, you're not giving it the chance.
[14:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I like to say have the criteria and then give it a chance of four or five meetings before you say this is not the right place.
[15:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And here's my other advice that no one likes, but I'm going to give it anyway.
[15:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, everyone hates the advice.
[15:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: People DM me and they're like, I'm not doing that.
[15:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, don't.
[15:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: My experience is have multiple irons in the fire.
[15:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I say that all the time.
[15:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And the
[15:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because what if you go and you meet someone and you like them and you're like, oh, this is great.
[15:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that's this happens by clients all the time.
[15:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Go, you need someone you like them.
[15:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You enjoy them.
[15:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They move.
[15:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They quit.
[15:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They have something going on in their family and they stop coming.
[15:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This is so true.
[15:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Kids adults, everyone.
[15:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This is just the way life is.
[15:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now people will say to me, I invested six months in this group thing, whatever, and now everything is fallen apart and I have nothing to show for it.
[15:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I always give this advice and everybody resists it, which is, join more than one thing.
[15:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now I get it.
[15:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's bandwidth.
[16:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's I get to tire.
[16:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's feeling burned out.
[16:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm not saying how many things to join.
[16:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You decide that, but if you
[16:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: the chances that something's going to happen are high.
[16:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: People have things go on.
[16:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Activity's fall apart by the way.
[16:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The coach leaves the coach.
[16:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I would join two or three things.
[16:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's my advice and that's what I do with my clients and by the way, they resist me too.
[16:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The thing I hear so often is I did this and it was going so well and then X happened and it fell apart.
[16:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And now I have to start from scratch.
[16:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You have two or three things going.
[16:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now you don't have to start from scratch.
[16:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And you're also more likely to say, okay, I'm making a calculated decision.
[16:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This activity doesn't offer an interactive element.
[16:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: These other two do.
[16:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I'm going to drop it instead of, well, now I have to cling for your life to this because I have nothing else.
[16:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Actually, a related question.
[17:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This one was my neurodivergent kid will do school activities,
[17:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Ah, okay.
[17:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's hard to ask someone over.
[17:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think it's a bigger step than parents realize.
[17:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm thrilled, they'll go to activities.
[17:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Thrilled.
[17:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, that's a good start.
[17:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's a good start.
[17:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: One of the things that I think happens as parents, and I'm guilty of this too, is that we forget that when you have sort of tenuous connections with people, it's a much bigger deal to say, come over.
[17:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: A lot of times, kids who struggle socially are afraid of that.
[17:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's also another flip side to this, which is maybe they don't understand that they want to nurture the relationship.
[17:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Some kids, especially if they're very concrete brains, are like, well, I see them at this activity.
[17:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And we're friends there, and we have a great time when we're together.
[17:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't need anything else.
[17:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm satisfied.
[17:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And what they don't understand is, as you mature, you need to be able to see people outside that activity, that friendship is an activity friendship, and it needs to grow in order to become a deeper friendship, and that they are going to want that, and that otherwise they're going to kind of have shallow friendships.
[18:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They don't understand that, and I would never say that to them.
[18:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So what I do is we talk about, again, friendship in general, how friendships evolved, and what's gonna happen?
[18:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I preview for them.
[18:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So what's gonna happen in middle school, high school, college, and what's talk about how friendships will evolve, and I get curious.
[18:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What makes you like seeing this person just in the activity?
[18:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then sometimes we find a middle ground, right?
[18:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If they're like, I can't ask them over.
[18:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's such a big step.
[18:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't think they'll say yes.
[18:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, could we ask them to meet up at a similar thing?
[18:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, while climbing rock climbing together, hey, could a bunch of us meet at a different rock climbing place, you know, another day of the week or something?
[18:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I really need to hear from the kid
[19:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: and we need to.
[19:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We need to get their perspective and the best way is parents, but it's not interrogation is get curious.
[19:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I really want to know what goes on there.
[19:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I really want to know what it feels like.
[19:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I really want to know what other kids do and one thing that might assure the person who wrote this question is, you know, I'm thinking about my son, who is neurotypical,
[19:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: has people he likes at school he has people he likes at a couple different activities he's people he likes from overnight camp where a lot of the kids do live here in Minnesota though okay so i'll say to him why don't you invite someone so over this one from camper this one from school and he's just kind of like we're not friends like that there has to be something that happens in between we're not friends like that and now we are friends like that somebody has to take a brave step it's very hard my point is it's hard to explain really to everyone and it's true
[19:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: actually the excerpt I read from your book.
[19:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, really speaks to this.
[19:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I hear from a lot of people in this situation where you become an adult who has not been pushed, and again, we're trying not to force friendships, but this is like the balance I want to talk about here, where you feel like you got news from the doctor and don't have anyone to call.
[20:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You got a raise and you don't have anyone to call, and it's that space between we're not friends like that, too.
[20:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You have a deep friendship.
[20:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: All this stuff has to happen in the middle, like you're trying
[20:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What happens is time goes on other people are forming relationships and how did they do it?
[20:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Somebody was brave and said hey you want to meet up with a rock climbing place or want to come over and it's hard I know it's not easy
[20:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I love the quote where not friends like that because it's so what they say to me, but also college students will say that to me.
[20:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'll say, well, don't you even academically?
[20:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Don't you have anybody in your classes who has really good notes?
[20:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, well, we're not friends like that or I don't know them well enough to ask the matter, whatever.
[20:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it is bravery, but I also think it's understanding that a no is not always a rejection.
[20:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, let's talk about that.
[20:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Please.
[20:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is a really important topic.
[20:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, so those of us who've been rejected are really sensitive to rejection.
[21:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: However, sometimes when people are busy, it's just like not right now, right?
[21:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Or we're not friends like that.
[21:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you are so afraid of that, no, it really affects how you friend and how you socialize.
[21:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: One of the things that I've had clients have success with is say I'm practicing.
[21:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So instead of, you know, instead of like this is the end all be all this text defines my entire person have it be like I'm practicing asking people to do things and I'm practicing asking them for what I call a next step, which is we're in this activity together whatever age you are I want to see this person outside of this activity.
[21:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I offer them a next step.
[21:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Hey, let's go the farmers market together.
[21:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Hey, let's go to the park together.
[21:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Hey, let's do this.
[21:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: People are really scared to offer that next step.
[21:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But if you're practicing this,
[22:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: then you're a little more detached.
[22:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Also going back to eggs in the basket.
[22:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[22:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If I'm doing this with multiple people, then you one person is not the end all the y'all.
[22:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm doing this with multiple people.
[22:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I know those with neurodiversity are listening to this and they're like, yes, but I've been rejected so many times.
[22:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've had the nose so much.
[22:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Everybody says no to me.
[22:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that's where we go into challenging the story, because so many of my clients tell me that everyone says no to them.
[22:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then when I dig into the story, it's like that person didn't say no, they said not able to do that today.
[22:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The other thing is be specific when you're practicing.
[22:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Instead of, do you want to do this some time?
[22:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Say like, hey Thursday, do you want to do this?
[22:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If they're interested, then they can say, I can't Thursday, but I could do Saturday.
[22:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And if they can't, I just would argue, go back to the signs in the book.
[23:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Are they talking to you?
[23:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Are they seeking you out?
[23:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Are they saving you a seat?
[23:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Are there signs that they want to be friends?
[23:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If there aren't, then maybe they're not interested.
[23:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But if there are signs they want to be friends, maybe it's just about that one time.
[23:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think part of the accepting of rejection, this is so hard for everyone is the first part may be true.
[23:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They actually may not be interested.
[23:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then we move on to the next person.
[23:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I know it's not that simple.
[23:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I know it's not that simple, but you'll never form a friendship without continuing to practice.
[23:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And one thing that would change friend making for everyone would be to accept that everyone will not be interested.
[23:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's a certitude.
[23:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: it could just be timing or it could be personal.
[23:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It actually might be personal.
[23:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You might not be everyone's cup of tea and then you're finding the right people.
[23:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, it's tricky.
[23:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The more you are looking at people with similar interests, the more you have a have a language together.
[24:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You have something in common and the more you are driving with them.
[24:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You're going back and forth and the more it's less stilted.
[24:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And the more you
[24:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So if you're scared and nervous of social anxiety, one of my things is we used to say, oh, no online friendships.
[24:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, those are just lesser friendships.
[24:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But if you have a special interest and there's a rich online community where you get on Zoom together and you do things together and you meet up twice a year, but mostly it's online, that might be a first step toward this.
[24:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it's an easier thing to ask someone to meet up.
[24:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's an easier thing to propose an next step, and you have that common language, so you click.
[24:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Part of what happens with the next step and the bravery and the rejection is, you are in this situation with this person, you don't know that much about, and you don't have as much of a common language, and you don't know a lot about them, and you don't have as much of a shared experience.
[25:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, shared experiences are how we make friends.
[25:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So that's why I say, don't be little the online communities because they could be a first step towards you getting confidence and then saying, okay, now I'm going to try in person or as kids say in real life.
[25:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[25:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Or with the same activity actually, right?
[25:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, with the same activity.
[25:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[25:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, you have some good, like, what's now for this activity that you may become even more of an expert and whatever it might be.
[25:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, gaming is, I'm sure a huge one.
[25:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Gaming is huge on my role play games, having a job or a role in an activity, by the way, lessens anxiety and allows you to make that next step and allows you excuses.
[25:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you are running, the church picked it.
[25:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: someone just reached out to me today and they were like, are you ever going to respond to me, Caroline?
[25:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was like, oh, I'm so sorry.
[25:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And they are in charge of something.
[25:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it's their job to reach out and communicate with everybody and coordinate everybody.
[26:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They have an excuse.
[26:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They have an excuse to talk to you to meet with you, to committee with you.
[26:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So that's another hack as to how do you get that next step that ask?
[26:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, now we, I mean, how many times have we as mothers made friends this way?
[26:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, we've been on something together.
[26:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We've met a million times about whatever.
[26:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And now you're like, hey, do you want to go get a cup of soup with me or whatever?
[26:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I'm like, sure, because we're already in this habit of being in each other's lives.
[26:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And this is Trooper Kids, too.
[26:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yearbook, they have podcast shows now at schools.
[26:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They have theater.
[26:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You could be the stage manager, the lighting director.
[26:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You could do all those different things.
[26:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then, and you have a role and you have a job and you have an excuse.
[26:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's not just you cold walking up to someone on being like, hey, do you want to be my friend?
[26:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: theater's great so I for kids one of them is a theater kid I love being a theater mom I really do I'm a theater kid oh I love it and I'm not I have no talent whatsoever but I love I'm like a professional audience remember I love every musical it's so fun to have a theater kid to actually be able to cheer on
[27:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: and I marvel at everything you just said not just the kids on stage it's a whole community there are so many jobs there's kids that come into help with the costumes or to help choreograph one number but then they're part of it they're part of the whole show you can be on the board of the theater you don't have to actually be a singer dancer after as you're saying to be part of it it's a great community
[27:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It is one of my most successful young women did the makeup.
[27:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So she was super shy, started doing the makeup for all the different productions, started knowing everybody.
[27:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, yeah.
[27:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Just knowing everybody because she's putting on, you know, the wicked costume or the glindas green, whatever, for hours and was talking to everyone.
[27:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And again, it's an excuse, a reason to talk to people, a common language, and a nice community.
[27:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And there's tons of things like this where pickleball.
[27:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I will never pickleball because I am incredibly uncoordinated, but for adults, pickleball is like a whole community.
[28:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you want to run the pickleball community, more power too, yeah, I'm way way too overwhelmed by that.
[28:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But it becomes an excuse you're in touch with everybody.
[28:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You're forming groups.
[28:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, I will be the person who'll fill in.
[28:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now, instead of you being awkward and like not knowing what to do, you're given something that allows you entrance, really.
[28:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, like you could be the person who is the solution for other people who feel like maybe they didn't know where to belong and like instead of you might also feel that way too, but if you run something for other people, it's like you have maybe the same problem, but you're part of the solution, I think that's great on the podcast that late April is an episode for asking whether your neighborhood in your city is a friendly place.
[28:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: part of the challenge in this episode is if you don't think so then you need to be part of the solution.
[28:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There is no one else.
[28:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Each person in the neighborhood who thinks like, well, my neighborhood's like really cold and no one knows each other.
[29:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, somebody has to, it may be you may wish you had a nicer neighborhood as a more friendly warmer.
[29:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It may be on you.
[29:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It may be like, okay, you're doing bagels in your driveway.
[29:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: we can't always be waiting for other people to do, but now you are part of the solution too, and it benefits you.
[29:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's what I'm getting and that's what's similar.
[29:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Benefits you, because you want an activity to do, you like this activity, you want to meet people.
[29:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, you run the activity.
[29:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Also, I know that that one person making a difference is true because I went to a wedding last fall.
[29:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It was a second wedding.
[29:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So everyone was an adult and everyone was mature.
[29:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was with random people, like it was just me and my husband and random people.
[29:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: One of the folks was telling us they had lived in a neighborhood we know about where everybody has this rich vibrant community.
[29:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They were attributing that entire community of like a lustreus in my town.
[29:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They have blocked parties.
[29:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They do this.
[29:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I believe it.
[29:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And she was a bus driver and I can't remember how it started but she wanted to raise funds for kids who were on her bus who had a challenge and so she started talking all her neighbors and she arranged something she just kept doing things and then eventually it took on a life of its own but it was one person.
[30:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Listen, I understand some of our listeners have social anxiety, that's too overwhelming for them.
[30:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But it is that sort of teaching doing role is a way to integrate yourself and to change things.
[30:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It is brave, but it's I think easier than randomly going up to people and trying to start from like a very cold place where you have nothing to talk about and no background on that.
[30:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, that's right.
[30:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And when you are the planner, you get to decide what time a day.
[30:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Maybe you don't like to do stuff at night.
[30:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So if I do plan in the morning, I I run writing groups and meeting up with us, I've done that for a while.
[30:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And when I was first starting them, sometimes people will complain, well, like, I can't come during the day.
[30:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I want to come at night.
[30:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And my family was like,
[31:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't want to be out at night.
[31:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I want to do stuff during the day.
[31:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So start your own group.
[31:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That was kind of my attitude as you can't accommodate everybody, but the good news is when you run it, you get to at least accommodate what works for you and those who also are free at that time will come.
[31:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's how it works.
[31:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, another question from the listeners.
[31:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is going to sound general, but I actually think it's a good advice for everyone.
[31:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: How compared to our teachers explain the difference between an acquaintance and a friend to a child who doesn't see the distinction.
[31:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that person could become an adult who doesn't see the distinction, so I think it's really important.
[31:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, you know, I talk about this a lot in the book.
[31:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: A couple of things.
[31:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think that people too often assign the name of friendship to people who are just acquaintances.
[31:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And there's nothing wrong with acquaintances.
[31:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Many neurodivergent people just to let you in don't want any more acquaintances because they get stuck at the acquaintance stage.
[31:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'll catch you soon.
[31:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But a lot of times, we assign this word friend.
[31:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I don't like how teachers will call everybody in elementary school, your friend, because I think it confuses those who are more concrete.
[32:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's important to know that friendships grow, and that if someone is in acquaintance, here's a few ways I define it.
[32:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You only see them inside of an activity.
[32:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You don't share more deeply personal information or they don't share it with you.
[32:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You may not know their last name.
[32:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Maybe you don't even know where they live, right?
[32:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know that they live in the same town and the same region, but you don't know where.
[32:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You wouldn't necessarily be able to like fill out information about their lives.
[32:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now, people can move from an acquaintance to more of an activity buddy slash activity friend and then you start to know all that information because you're on the road to friendship.
[32:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: A friend is someone who also offers emotional support.
[32:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: A friend is someone who understands and knows about your life.
[32:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Even if they don't know everything because they haven't been here for 30 years, they know enough to say, well, I don't know, but that, you know, in their child, they moved around a lot.
[33:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's something there.
[33:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, they know enough to know.
[33:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: you would expect reciprocity from them.
[33:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that's the biggest thing.
[33:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think when it comes to acquaintances, too often we expect reciprocity.
[33:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I invite you, you invite me.
[33:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I do something for you and then you return that to me.
[33:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We share emotional support.
[33:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I helped you through something and then you helped me through something.
[33:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's a friend.
[33:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: an acquaintance isn't offering that level of reciprocity.
[33:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When it comes to acquaintances, I have a whole thing in the book where I lay out all the levels of friendship.
[33:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And sort of detecting is this person of friend or an acquaintance.
[33:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Listen, I don't think it's the end of the world if someone is an acquaintance, but it just means that we have to nurture that
[33:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: or not, like it's okay to understand not wanting more acquaintances, but if you at least slot them correctly in your mind, the expectation and then maybe the feeling of rejection would be different.
[34:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You wouldn't feel as rejected from someone who actually isn't a good friend, like they're not a close friend yet, or maybe ever, but they're definitely not now.
[34:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Some of that, I think, rejection and fear of rejection, maybe too many steps are getting skipped, between acquaintance and friend.
[34:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think that's really important, especially vis-à-vis in our divergent people.
[34:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think a lot of times when I talk about in the book is we feel rejected by someone who we expect to the friendship activities from, but they are really an acquaintance.
[34:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so when we ask them,
[34:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: for something, for some level of emotional support, to do something, to come to a certain party or a certain time.
[34:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'll just give a personal example.
[34:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I didn't tell many people about my book launch thing, because I know everyone is so crazed, and my husband was like, this is bonkers, you're having a huge thing, you're speaking at Harvard, people should come.
[34:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So he went and he told my closest friends, though.
[35:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: he told the people who are, you know, tired of hearing about this book because I've been talking about it, right?
[35:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He told three or four really close people to me and then he arranged a dinner before hand.
[35:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But he did that not with everybody I've ever met.
[35:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He was asking support to the people who, I mean, I'm not going to have a wedding again, but if I was having a wedding they'd be there, right?
[35:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If I was having anything big,
[35:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I think that's a difference and what happened sometimes is we feel so rejected because we ask someone and they're really in acquaintance and so they respond as an acquaintance.
[35:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: By the way, I get a lot of DMs about this and I get DMs from all kinds of people, not just typical people.
[35:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I get DMs from neurodivergent people who say, I really don't want to reject or hurt someone the way I've been hurt in the past.
[35:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But this person is leaning on me as if I'm a friend.
[35:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: for a ton of support, but I don't know them that well, and it's kind of making me scared.
[35:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that's what we have to remember when we lean on someone so much who's really in acquaintance, and we ask a lot of emotional support.
[36:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Sometimes they don't know what to do.
[36:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: and they're kind of worried as it's a red flag and it actually scares them.
[36:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think the exception are communities of support.
[36:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you're in Allen on, if you're in a fertility group, a cancer survivor group, you're there to support each other.
[36:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You may have just met, but you're giving out your digits and you're helping each other.
[36:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's different, I agree.
[36:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's different.
[36:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I've got you brought this nuance up.
[36:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's a delicate nuance, if I hear from people too, from both sides of somebody doesn't want to be mean or unkind, and this is nothing to with a neurotypical or not.
[36:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's whatever the case is.
[36:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can tell that overtures a friendship are being made.
[36:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Somebody's taking our advice and they're trying and they're taking the step and they're doing all the right things.
[36:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But then they may just be hitting up against somebody who doesn't feel the chemistry is busy, not that interested for any number of reasons.
[37:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But they don't want to be on kind.
[37:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That every rejection is on kindness.
[37:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, it still is a no when it's own way.
[37:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I don't know sometimes how to tell people how to nicely get out of somebody else's friendship advances.
[37:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The person can be doing nothing wrong.
[37:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Totally appropriate.
[37:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They have things in common.
[37:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They live near each other.
[37:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They're not feeling it.
[37:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's kind of the same type of person you're hearing from, you're saying.
[37:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You're saying it happens because it's maybe coming on too strong too fast.
[37:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that might be the same reason I'm hearing about it.
[37:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Just because somebody is looking for a friendship doesn't mean the person they're asking is interested.
[37:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it's so tough.
[37:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I wish people would be kinder and more transparent.
[37:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Right.
[37:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay.
[37:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let's just go.
[37:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay.
[37:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So let's have a personal example of this.
[37:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I have an acquaintance to activity buddy who I knew from mommy baby groups.
[37:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I really liked we always got along her wife sadly passed away.
[37:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I talk about this in the book.
[37:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just was checking up on her and we saw each other a few things last spring and I was like I like this woman so much and I want to be supportive and then we met for coffee and we met every month for like six months and we were just having a grand old time but then I knew come November it started to be conference season and then we were starting into the gauntlet of the book.
[38:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so I just said, hey, I'm going to probably disappear.
[38:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I won't be able to take a morning off to have coffee.
[38:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I hope it's okay with you that I'm going to disappear, launch the book, and then reappear and hope that we can continue.
[38:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Wow, what she said.
[38:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She was like, sure, she's just such a smart lady.
[38:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She was like, of course.
[38:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I wish people would be more like that where they would say, I just am having a hard time in my life.
[38:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: My, you know, I have a friend going through like a merger in her company.
[38:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: you could be the nicest person in the world.
[38:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She is no time right now.
[38:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I think there's that.
[38:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I wish people would give more explanations, but also think there's another thing you're touching on, which is just because I am looking for more friends.
[38:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Does it mean someone else is open to and looking for friends?
[39:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And this is so hard.
[39:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You named it.
[39:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You named it.
[39:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It is hard.
[39:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So hard because I wish they were.
[39:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I have had people say to me, and I'm sure they've said to you, I like this person, but I'm not looking for friends.
[39:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm not looking for that right now.
[39:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now, I kind of feel like, when am I not looking for friends, I've made friends in the past two years when I was not looking for friends, but they were, they are, and they were interesting, and they were area, amazing women doing amazing things.
[39:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So we found the time, but I understand that sometimes people have boundaries.
[39:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think the answer is, if you don't feel the click, I think just to say something about, I'm just not able to do fun stuff right now.
[39:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Or to say, I just have so much going on in my life, I'm sort of not able to take on new things.
[39:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I think it's very hard because neurodivergent people just to decode for your listeners often don't speak hint.
[39:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I talk about that in the book.
[40:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So what ends up happening is people will say things that are more vague than that, trying to be kind, and then my clients are like, I don't know what they mean, or they're spending all their time decoding it, which is so sad.
[40:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And just painful.
[40:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think people,
[40:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: don't know how to set boundaries.
[40:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, think about it.
[40:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So that's something we grew up knowing.
[40:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, I don't know about your family, but my family don't understand boundaries.
[40:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so I think part of the dilemma is that someone has to be open to making friends.
[40:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then if they don't feel the click, they don't know what to say.
[40:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, because no one wants to be mean.
[40:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I don't want to say no one.
[40:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't want to say no one.
[40:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say no.
[40:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to say
[41:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: in order to not invite something I'm not interested in in that moment.
[41:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's a good example in the sense that I've been there where I have to work.
[41:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You could be great and I want to talk to you and I actually wish that I could, but I must write for the next two hours, or I must write an article that is do when I step off that plane, I must go to a little cubby and hit the Wi-Fi and send it.
[41:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Right?
[41:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So you're nice and I might see a mystery book you're reading.
[41:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I love true crime and I might want to talk about it, but I can't.
[41:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Right.
[41:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's sort of like a good example of it's at the wrong place, wrong time.
[41:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that this could happen in friendship too.
[41:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's not that someone's like a nice person.
[41:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They were very quick to call everyone mean or a bully.
[41:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, people use the word bully so much.
[41:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Are you a mean person or you a bully because you already have
[41:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: a couple activities that you do, you already walk a couple times a week with people, you already have those slots filled.
[41:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And if you spread yourself so thin, it's, you don't even see the people that are important to your family, your romantic partner, your friends, you already have the acquaintances that you're already kind of building, but can't juggle at all.
[42:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So you're saying to be more direct about that.
[42:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: to be kind, but to say, you know, like, I'm just, I feel like somebody said to me, they had a phrase and one of the phrases, but like, I'm just not taking on new things right now.
[42:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And they were talking about groups and charities and things, but just say, I wish I had more time to be social, but like, I just don't write now.
[42:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think we have to be kind.
[42:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I always want kindness.
[42:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I always try to be kind myself.
[42:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I do think there's another factor here, which is that
[42:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Don't really want a lot of friends and we don't really talk about that that doesn't make them bad or wrong But they may not be looking and it may have nothing to do with you And I think one of the things that happens to my clients is because we've had so much rejection and our confidence level is so high We create a story about why someone says no or why someone isn't receptive
[43:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I'm going to talk with something else we don't ever talk about in the friendship world.
[43:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Maybe you've had people talk about it, not in my deep snooping of you, which is if we come with desperation, and we take anyone, there's going to be more rejection, because we are not curating friendships.
[43:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're not finding our people, and therefore people might not accept back because they're looking to find their people.
[43:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And just, no, I have not talked about in that way.
[43:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's great.
[43:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like you're not being discerning, but you're reaching out to people who are being discerning.
[43:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Right.
[43:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Again, I don't see that as a rejection.
[43:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I see that as, I may not know who my people are, but those people that I'm talking to do know who their people are, and they are discerning.
[43:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that's not a bad thing.
[43:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I think we have to talk about that sort of
[44:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: it's a confidence thing.
[44:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The last confidence you have, the more you've been rejected, the more you kind of say, I'll take anyone.
[44:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And if that's part of what I talk about in friendship skills for neurodivergence, that's not necessarily also the path because then you're taking anyone, you're also taking people who don't treat you well.
[44:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that's not friendship.
[44:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't want people to be in relationship to where people don't treat them well.
[44:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know, let's end on the last thing is related to this.
[44:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You do talk in the book about wishing that people would treat trying to make friends and decide how close to be with certain people the same way they do dating.
[44:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Because I think it's related to what you just said.
[44:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It is.
[44:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It is.
[44:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I dove into the dating advice because there's not that much research on friendship to answer all the questions I needed to answer in this book.
[44:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I actually met with two matchmakers who didn't choose to be in the book, but their advice was like incredibly good.
[44:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I dove it into the dating research.
[44:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: One of the things I have thinking about and I have a couple clients who have been with me to make friends and now they've come back to date.
[45:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I said, well, I'm not a dating coach and they were like, no, but I know you can't align.
[45:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And you know me and whatever.
[45:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Every time they have a date, we're on hinge, we're on wherever, and we're like tweaking the profile, and we're looking at what they want, and what they don't want.
[45:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it just struck you one day like, we don't do this with friendship.
[45:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: it's much more direct with dating like you're much more clear about what you want and you kind of understand that the other person's also being clear.
[45:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you're having a second act, if you're reading this book and you're a mature adult who's had friendships not work out or who is part of that first chapter, you want someone to call what you have a health scare, you want someone to call when you have a bonus that you got at work.
[45:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: don't you owe it to yourself to be a little more discerning to look at what your people will be?
[45:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I'm not saying to screen everybody out.
[45:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But just to say, okay, I'm really looking for someone who shares this interest and who wants to do these kinds of things and who is, you know, kind shares my values, easy to talk to, whatever it is that you're looking for.
[46:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And doing it, a huge message of your book, I don't think we've said it enough actually, doing all of that
[46:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, certain things you have to practice, takes practice to ask someone to meet for coffee before class the next time.
[46:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like all that stuff takes practice, but you're not going to show up to that coffee as someone different than yourself.
[46:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So you want people who will accept you for you are, which maybe is different than some of the messaging from years ago.
[46:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I know that the messages in the past were different that you had to learn how to mask and all those things and you covered all the book we want.
[46:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's too much to cover here, but I love your message of
[46:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Maybe learn some of these skills to make it easier to make and keep friends, but you're still showing up as you.
[46:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I want you to still show up as you because your authentic self is a match for someone.
[46:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The more we can find that authentic self and I do mean fine because sometimes people have to figure out who it is, the more we have a chance of finding our people, rather than just trying to fit in and then finding people who are okay, they're fine, there's nothing wrong, but they're not our people, there's not that click in that connection.
[47:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Beautiful.
[47:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think that's a great note to end on, and I really hope people will read both books.
[47:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Caroline, will you say the names of your two books one more time?
[47:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The first book is why I will no one play with me and that's for parents of kids.
[47:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And the second book is Friendship Skills for Nerd of Urgent Adults.
[47:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that is for young adults, parents of teens and adults.
[47:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, great.
[47:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thank you so much.
[47:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I will have all the ways people can find you too in social media because you have some great videos out there.
[47:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I love your Instagram.
[47:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You've got a lot going on.
[47:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That will be all in the show.
[47:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thank you listeners for being here and Caroline has listed in the podcast which I appreciate not all guests do.
[47:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think it's great when they have.
[47:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's you know I'm going to say come back next week when our friendships are going well.
[47:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We are happier all around.

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