# 402. Why trauma bonding feels so much like love ...

An episode of [The Psychology of your 20s](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1573710078), 2 Apr 2026, 48 min.

Audio: https://pdrl.fm/f842d9/podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/bc44988a-a82a-4291-ab8b-afdd01187fa8/90388ba8-06b5-4e1c-b116-b420008aebe6/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=39e2f432-53df-43b8-a7b9-afdd01187fc4

We’ve all heard the phrase trauma bonding, often used in jest to talk about two people who became friends after meeting in difficult circumstances. But trauma bonding is actually a psychological phenomenon which defines a relationship characterised by an abuser and their target, and a cycle that can be very hard to break out of. In this episode, we unpack the characteristics of a trauma bond, how you can identify if you might be experiencing one, and steps you can take to break away from one. We explore: • What a trauma bond looks like • Why trauma bonds can happen • What a trauma bond ISN’T • Why trauma bonds can play out in a variety of relationships • How to identify if you are experiencing a trauma bond • Steps you can take to move away from a trauma bond A few resources to help you if you are struggling with a trauma bond: The Attachment Project: HERE Choosing Therapy: HERE Watch on Netflix: HERE Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s For business: psychologyofyour20s@gmail.com The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:04] Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the
[0:08] Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through
[0:11] Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and
[0:16] Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back
[0:28] Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is
[0:30] Speaker 1: so great to have you here, back for another episode.
[0:33] Speaker 1: I just want to let you know before we get
[0:35] Speaker 1: into this episode that we are going to be discussing
[0:38] Speaker 1: some intense subject matter today to do with physical abuse,
[0:44] Speaker 1: emotional abuse, verbal abuse, that sort of thing. So if
[0:48] Speaker 1: that is something that you're particularly sensitive to or you
[0:50] Speaker 1: don't really want to hear somebody talking about today, just
[0:54] Speaker 1: giving you a heads up so you can skip this
[0:56] Speaker 1: episode or maybe come back to it at a later
[0:58] Speaker 1: time when you are feeling, you know, maybe in a
[1:01] Speaker 1: more stable place. There will be some links to some
[1:05] Speaker 1: resources and some assistance in the show description as well.
[1:10] Speaker 1: Let's get into it today, we are talking about trauma bonds.
[1:15] Speaker 1: And no, not two people who bond through hardship, because
[1:19] Speaker 1: I hate to break it to you, that is actually
[1:21] Speaker 1: not a trauma bond. We are talking about a powerful
[1:25] Speaker 1: kind of connection that forms between two people, when one
[1:31] Speaker 1: person manipulates their own trauma or the trauma of the
[1:34] Speaker 1: person that they are with to create a highly dependent,
[1:40] Speaker 1: highly painful, highly manipulative relationship that is founded on the
[1:46] Speaker 1: highs and lows of emotional gaslighting, maybe even emotional abuse,
[1:50] Speaker 1: founded on hot and cold behavior, founded on betrayal and
[1:55] Speaker 1: hurt rather than love. What nobody tells you about trauma
[1:59] Speaker 1: bonds is how often people who think they would never
[2:03] Speaker 1: be susceptible to this kind of thing end up in
[2:05] Speaker 1: these relationships all of the time because of how powerful
[2:09] Speaker 1: inconsistency is at hijacking our brain's reward system. When somebody
[2:14] Speaker 1: gives you the most perfect fantasy version of love one
[2:18] Speaker 1: day and then switches it into the most terrible kind
[2:22] Speaker 1: of love the next, that emotional whiplash does something dangerous
[2:28] Speaker 1: to your brain. It teaches you that if you just
[2:31] Speaker 1: hold out a little bit longer, the good version is
[2:34] Speaker 1: going to come back around, and so it leaves you
[2:37] Speaker 1: holding onto potential and holding onto these terrible relationships and
[2:40] Speaker 1: these terrible people because of the potential of reward. In
[2:45] Speaker 1: that way, you know this person, the person that people
[2:48] Speaker 1: form a trauma bond with, becomes both their biggest source
[2:50] Speaker 1: of unhappiness but also their biggest source of happiness at times,
[2:54] Speaker 1: because this person is the one who can give and
[2:57] Speaker 1: take those things, who can give and take safety. People
[3:00] Speaker 1: who have never experienced this may look at it from
[3:03] Speaker 1: the outside and think, I don't know, why don't you
[3:05] Speaker 1: just leave? That person's obviously not good for you. Why
[3:08] Speaker 1: don't you know you deserve better? Why don't you just
[3:10] Speaker 1: walk away? But what they don't understand is the insanely
[3:15] Speaker 1: powerful neurobiological, psychological, physical, emotionally addictive patterns that this kind
[3:23] Speaker 1: of relationship creates, which essentially mean that our own self preservation,
[3:28] Speaker 1: our own instincts, our own emotions, our rationality, it all
[3:34] Speaker 1: just gets so totally scrambled. I think what they don't
[3:38] Speaker 1: realize is how smart abuses and partners can be, how
[3:43] Speaker 1: well they understand the mechanisms of insecurity and psychology, and
[3:48] Speaker 1: how well they can manipulate love. So this is exactly
[3:52] Speaker 1: what we're going to be revealing and talking about today.
[3:54] Speaker 1: If you have ever found yourself in this kind of
[3:57] Speaker 1: trauma bond, if you are recovering and healing from a
[4:00] Speaker 1: relationship that matches this pattern, or if you're just watching
[4:03] Speaker 1: like a friend or anybody in your life going through this,
[4:07] Speaker 1: and you're trying to understand how you can help them.
[4:11] Speaker 1: I think and I hope that this episode will bring
[4:15] Speaker 1: you some clarity. So without further ado, let's get into
[4:18] Speaker 1: the psychology of trauma bonds. Let's start by really clarifying that,
[4:27] Speaker 1: because this is totally essential. We really need to clarify
[4:30] Speaker 1: what we mean by a trauma bond because it has
[4:32] Speaker 1: been used very very casually these days, and that has
[4:36] Speaker 1: definitely diluted its meaning considerably, not because of anybody's poor intentions,
[4:42] Speaker 1: just because of concept creep. Concept creep is essentially the
[4:47] Speaker 1: casual expansion of serious terms to mean less and less
[4:51] Speaker 1: serious things and therefore take away the important meaning of
[4:56] Speaker 1: these words. I think we have all heard of people
[4:59] Speaker 1: who have come friends at a terrible workplace, you know,
[5:01] Speaker 1: joke that they are trauma bonded, or people who have
[5:04] Speaker 1: dealt with like the same tragic, awful X will be like,
[5:07] Speaker 1: how do you guys meet? Oh, we like, we have
[5:09] Speaker 1: like a trauma bond. We're like trauma bonded. That is
[5:12] Speaker 1: very different to the original meaning of this term. Trauma
[5:15] Speaker 1: bonding was first devised in nineteen ninety seven by this
[5:18] Speaker 1: man called doctor Patrick Kahnes, who interestingly also is known
[5:24] Speaker 1: for his work actually on sex addiction as a sidebar,
[5:26] Speaker 1: but he essentially created, discovered, founded this term to refer
[5:33] Speaker 1: to a relationship between an abuser and an abused person,
[5:38] Speaker 1: or a manipulative person and a target that is formed
[5:44] Speaker 1: in a way that gets somebody to stay against their
[5:46] Speaker 1: best interests because of trauma, because trauma creates a bond.
[5:51] Speaker 1: In contrast to like the normal use of the word
[5:53] Speaker 1: bond to describe like a deep, healthy reaction to love
[5:57] Speaker 1: and emotional vulnerability in connection, trauma bonding refers to how
[6:02] Speaker 1: we respond to emotional volatility and how we respond to
[6:06] Speaker 1: control sometimes, you know, actually tunneling further into the relationship
[6:12] Speaker 1: that is creating these bad feelings for protection when it's
[6:16] Speaker 1: obviously against our best interests because for some reason our
[6:20] Speaker 1: brain isn't able to rationally respond in these situations it
[6:23] Speaker 1: has been scrambled by somebody else's behavior. A bond is,
[6:27] Speaker 1: you know, in simple terms, really just a connection. A
[6:30] Speaker 1: trauma bond is a connection that is forged through something sinister,
[6:34] Speaker 1: but it is a connection nonetheless. In short, it is
[6:38] Speaker 1: an attachment based on cycles of the threat and relief
[6:44] Speaker 1: which leave the person in this relationship desperate for approval.
[6:49] Speaker 1: This can happen, yes, most often with a romantic partner,
[6:52] Speaker 1: but it can also happen with a parent, can happen
[6:55] Speaker 1: with a friend, It can happen with an institution, a
[6:58] Speaker 1: mentor anybody who has emotional control and can take what
[7:04] Speaker 1: somebody needs from a relationship and exploit it. These have
[7:08] Speaker 1: the capacity to turn into trauma bonds. The way that
[7:11] Speaker 1: a trauma bond begins is often through intense affection and
[7:16] Speaker 1: praise from the abuser, love bombing, like major declarations of love.
[7:22] Speaker 1: What appears to be fierce devotion. It's like a huge
[7:25] Speaker 1: emotional heigh. It's super intense, it's it's a magnetic, addictive
[7:30] Speaker 1: feeling to be cared for in such a way. They
[7:32] Speaker 1: may also, and this is critical, tell the person that
[7:35] Speaker 1: they are intending to form a trauma bond with stories
[7:39] Speaker 1: of their own trauma, particularly from their childhood, particularly from
[7:43] Speaker 1: past relationships, to generate like a deep psychological hold over
[7:50] Speaker 1: this other person, but also to elicit sympathy. This stage
[7:54] Speaker 1: is essential. It basically provides this abuse of this person
[7:59] Speaker 1: with an emotional alibi for their future bad behavior, and
[8:04] Speaker 1: they need to do this in order to engage the
[8:06] Speaker 1: next part of their plan because eventually, like their behavior
[8:10] Speaker 1: is going to switch, they're going to become cruel, and
[8:12] Speaker 1: having this reason why they do it to fall back
[8:14] Speaker 1: on helps them dismiss their behavior to you again. Like
[8:20] Speaker 1: I said, eventually it's going to escalate. But the thing
[8:22] Speaker 1: is is that this escalation is often also randomly juxtaposed
[8:27] Speaker 1: with warmth and affection. It will be like I love
[8:30] Speaker 1: you, You've disappointed me, like nobody ever has your greatest thing
[8:35] Speaker 1: that's ever happened to me. I never want to see
[8:37] Speaker 1: you again. I think you're beautiful. You disgust me. This
[8:40] Speaker 1: flip flop flip flop. In his article Love and Stockholm Syndrome,
[8:44] Speaker 1: The Mystery of Loving an Abuser, this psychologist doctor Joseph
[8:48] Speaker 1: Carver he calls this small kindness perception. Perhaps the abuser
[8:54] Speaker 1: has been giving somebody the silent treatment, and then they
[8:57] Speaker 1: show them this small kindness by breaking this silent treatment
[9:00] Speaker 1: with a gift or a hug. Maybe they will exclude you,
[9:05] Speaker 1: ignore you, and then suddenly turn around and want you're around.
[9:08] Speaker 1: This is that cycle of relief, pain and relief. Relief, pain, pain,
[9:13] Speaker 1: and relief, like not knowing which one's gonna come again.
[9:17] Speaker 1: They become an equal source of fear but also of safety,
[9:23] Speaker 1: meaning that even if somebody wants to walk away, all
[9:26] Speaker 1: of their emotional regulation, good and bad, is tied up
[9:29] Speaker 1: to this other person. There are enough good days to
[9:32] Speaker 1: entice you, and enough bad days to confuse you, and
[9:38] Speaker 1: enough excuses that they're giving you to think that they
[9:41] Speaker 1: can change. This hot and cold personality has been described
[9:47] Speaker 1: essentially like a two faced soulmate, which I think is
[9:51] Speaker 1: like a brilliant term for describing this. It basically fits
[9:55] Speaker 1: this pattern of intimate and reinforcement and reward and punishment.
[10:00] Speaker 1: It fits this pattern of like this person is two
[10:02] Speaker 1: different people in one body, and these two different people
[10:05] Speaker 1: are so difficult to disentangle because the good is just
[10:10] Speaker 1: so good and the bad is so different to that
[10:14] Speaker 1: that it's literally impossible to know what's real and what's not.
[10:17] Speaker 1: From there, the cycle of affection and cruelty continues often
[10:22] Speaker 1: for years, sometimes even for a lifetime for some people,
[10:26] Speaker 1: which is tragic to say. So, why does it happen
[10:29] Speaker 1: in the first place, Like what are the warning signs?
[10:32] Speaker 1: Why do these situations occur? And why do. So many
[10:36] Speaker 1: people often report being like it just kind of snuck
[10:39] Speaker 1: up on me if you haven't lived it. I feel
[10:42] Speaker 1: like it's very hard to understand that research into the
[10:45] Speaker 1: causes of trauma bonds. This might surprise you, might not
[10:49] Speaker 1: surprise some of you. Actually it's actually still really in
[10:52] Speaker 1: its early days, in early stages, because psychologists are still
[10:56] Speaker 1: getting a grasp on just still getting a grasp on
[10:59] Speaker 1: lie the power dynamics of all of this. But it
[11:03] Speaker 1: is thought that one of the core reasons that somebody
[11:07] Speaker 1: sets out to create a trauma bond, and whether that's
[11:10] Speaker 1: deliberate or like a little bit subconscious, it is because
[11:13] Speaker 1: of a deep need for power and adoration. This is
[11:17] Speaker 1: highly attributed to narcissistic personality traits or a narcissistic personality disorder.
[11:23] Speaker 1: A narcissist, as we know from one of our previous
[11:25] Speaker 1: episodes on this, needs to be at the center of
[11:28] Speaker 1: everything to feel like they matter. And whether they get
[11:31] Speaker 1: that through success, through money, through praise, or through romantic
[11:37] Speaker 1: manipulation and playing the victim like, it's kind of all
[11:40] Speaker 1: the same. If they get what they want, if they
[11:42] Speaker 1: get that spotlight, if they get the attention, if they
[11:44] Speaker 1: get adoration. In particular, there's a type of narcissist called
[11:48] Speaker 1: a vulnerable narcissist. It's very prevalent to have a trauma
[11:51] Speaker 1: bond with this kind of person. This is the type
[11:54] Speaker 1: of narcissist who takes up all the emotional oxygen in
[11:59] Speaker 1: the room and inner real relationship by always making themselves
[12:02] Speaker 1: the victim, by making sure that their crisis is always
[12:05] Speaker 1: the biggest crisis, by making sure that everybody like orbits
[12:09] Speaker 1: them so one individual being narcissistic or having being high
[12:15] Speaker 1: and trade narcissism is a huge risk factor. Another is
[12:20] Speaker 1: if the person who is either person really has an
[12:24] Speaker 1: insecure attachment style and one that is developed from past
[12:28] Speaker 1: bonds or past relationships. Feel like, we are all very
[12:31] Speaker 1: familiar with how with what an insecure attachment style is,
[12:34] Speaker 1: why how people develop that style and relationships. But again,
[12:39] Speaker 1: if your only blueprint for love is that affection is
[12:43] Speaker 1: something to be given and taken away, or that love
[12:46] Speaker 1: needs to be earned it is not freely given, it
[12:49] Speaker 1: becomes harder to question a trauma bond, and it becomes
[12:52] Speaker 1: harder to question when a new romantic partner does things
[12:56] Speaker 1: that are a little bit odd or a little bit
[12:58] Speaker 1: nefarious because you don't know an alternative. That's what love is,
[13:02] Speaker 1: that's what you know it as. That's how your parents
[13:05] Speaker 1: loved each other, That's how they loved you. So all
[13:08] Speaker 1: these warning signs that to other people would be these
[13:10] Speaker 1: bright red flags, like you just miss them because you
[13:13] Speaker 1: don't have you haven't learnt what unhealthy love versus healthy
[13:17] Speaker 1: love looks like. There's also a biochemical element to this
[13:20] Speaker 1: as well, which I don't see talked about very often,
[13:23] Speaker 1: but the anthropologist Helen Fisher, she actually showed in her
[13:27] Speaker 1: research that this kind of love actually activates some of
[13:31] Speaker 1: the same brain regions that are responsible for crocane addiction,
[13:34] Speaker 1: alcohol addiction, gambling addiction because of that intermittent reinforcement we
[13:39] Speaker 1: were speaking about. Basically, sometimes you win, more often you lose,
[13:44] Speaker 1: but sometimes you win and that feels really nice. That
[13:49] Speaker 1: keeps you hooked. That's why people keep sitting at slot
[13:51] Speaker 1: machines waiting for their luck to turn. I need people
[13:55] Speaker 1: to understand this. There are some powerful biological systems working
[13:59] Speaker 1: against your favor here, especially in a turbulent relationship. I
[14:04] Speaker 1: think the effects of all these chemicals are going to
[14:06] Speaker 1: be so much more profound, you know, you've got dopamine, yeah,
[14:09] Speaker 1: but you've also got oxytocin, vasapressin, serotonin, cortisol, nor a
[14:14] Speaker 1: pinnepherent adrenaline, all mixing together. Because of how many highs
[14:18] Speaker 1: and lows there are, there are just too many signals
[14:22] Speaker 1: to intercept and for your rational mind to I guess
[14:27] Speaker 1: like sort through. So your ability to walk away into
[14:30] Speaker 1: rationally see what's happening is just scrambled. When somebody is
[14:33] Speaker 1: the source of both the best and worst parts in
[14:36] Speaker 1: your life. No chemical in your body is a good
[14:38] Speaker 1: or bad chemical. It just responds to stress all things
[14:41] Speaker 1: in your environment, and you're just receiving so much of that.
[14:44] Speaker 1: In particular, like dopamine, I feel like it plays a
[14:47] Speaker 1: role in so much, but especially for this. Something that
[14:50] Speaker 1: you might not know about dopamine is that, yeah, it
[14:52] Speaker 1: gives you pleasure, but it also minimizes pain. So when
[14:58] Speaker 1: you're going through painful emotional experiences, right, dopamine is numbing you.
[15:05] Speaker 1: It's reducing your pain response physical and emotional, so that
[15:09] Speaker 1: you can endure hard things. But it's also giving you
[15:12] Speaker 1: this strangely positive reinforcement reward here, So it's not working
[15:17] Speaker 1: in our favor, right, dopamine is being released because what
[15:20] Speaker 1: you're going through is hard. But then also your brain's like, oh,
[15:23] Speaker 1: but then we feel good. So this is essentially like
[15:28] Speaker 1: the perfect chemical assistant to an abuser who is playing
[15:31] Speaker 1: that hot and cold persona to their advantage emotionally but
[15:36] Speaker 1: also biochemically, and is it traps people. Finally, I think
[15:41] Speaker 1: another big factor here is just time. The longer the
[15:45] Speaker 1: person the abuser waits before showing the side of them,
[15:50] Speaker 1: the more sympathy they are able to gain through those
[15:52] Speaker 1: early on vulnerability disclosures. But also the more sunk costs
[15:56] Speaker 1: they know they are creating, the harder it is for
[16:00] Speaker 1: somebody to walk away because they've already invested so much
[16:02] Speaker 1: time into the relationship. You'll also notice that, like at first,
[16:07] Speaker 1: the switch between kind and awful is pretty it's pretty
[16:12] Speaker 1: it's pretty rare, like to see this terrible side of
[16:15] Speaker 1: them in the first months years of the relationship because
[16:19] Speaker 1: they're kind of testing the boundaries. Slowly, though, that terrible
[16:23] Speaker 1: side becomes more prominent as they kind of adapt somebody
[16:27] Speaker 1: and acclimate somebody to their bad behavior. They know they
[16:31] Speaker 1: know that in the beginning, the longer in between the
[16:35] Speaker 1: good and bad behavior the harder it is to detect,
[16:39] Speaker 1: the longer the relationship continues, the more bio and emotional
[16:44] Speaker 1: rewiring is being done, the more entrenched somebody is. It
[16:49] Speaker 1: is just such a powerful reminder that like people can
[16:52] Speaker 1: be in these relationships for years, everybody from the outside
[16:56] Speaker 1: can be like, something is wrong here, and it will
[16:59] Speaker 1: not show up on their emotional radar because it is
[17:03] Speaker 1: essentially I don't like to use terms like brainwashing or
[17:06] Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome, but it is a form of that. It's
[17:09] Speaker 1: like that classic analogy of a frog being put into
[17:12] Speaker 1: a pot of boiling water. If the water is already boiling,
[17:16] Speaker 1: if somebody dropped you into an abusive relationship, you would
[17:19] Speaker 1: jump out immediately, But if the water slowly boils around you,
[17:23] Speaker 1: you don't notice it. And in the case with frogs,
[17:25] Speaker 1: like they end up dying before they can escape, because
[17:27] Speaker 1: they just just gets hotter and hotter and hotter until
[17:29] Speaker 1: they don't even realize. Do not be mistaken here. Manipulative people.
[17:36] Speaker 1: They know how to target these levers of addiction, of acclamation,
[17:43] Speaker 1: of just everything to keep you hooked. Okay, we are
[17:46] Speaker 1: going to we're going to take a short break here,
[17:49] Speaker 1: and then I really want to take us through this
[17:50] Speaker 1: list of like is it a trauma bond? Is it not?
[17:54] Speaker 1: And what are some signs that things are really taking me?
[17:57] Speaker 1: Turn for the worst? Stick around will be right back
[18:00] Speaker 1: after this shortbreak. We've talked about what a trauma bond
[18:10] Speaker 1: is and I mentioned, you know, there's a lot of
[18:13] Speaker 1: concept creep, a lot of people using this for different things,
[18:17] Speaker 1: So how can we really know what's like the biggest
[18:21] Speaker 1: sign that this is going on? I think crucially, like
[18:25] Speaker 1: the big thing to remember is that all relationships are
[18:29] Speaker 1: going to have some level of emotional disclosure, Like yah dah.
[18:33] Speaker 1: People are going to share their secrets. People are hopefully
[18:35] Speaker 1: going to talk about their childhood trauma. People are hopefully
[18:38] Speaker 1: going to talk about the really hard stuff that it's
[18:40] Speaker 1: going on in their life. Them sharing that is not
[18:43] Speaker 1: a sign that like they're using their vulnerability to manipulate you,
[18:47] Speaker 1: Like it's just genuine vulnerability. So I don't want you
[18:50] Speaker 1: to be in maybe the early days of a relationship
[18:52] Speaker 1: or sitting here thinking, hey, like that guy just told
[18:55] Speaker 1: me about how his mum was really awful to him,
[18:58] Speaker 1: or like that guy just told me about his ex
[19:00] Speaker 1: and how terrible she was. Is he trying to like
[19:03] Speaker 1: get his cooks in me. No. In healthy relationships, there
[19:10] Speaker 1: is mutual sharing, there is mutual understanding. There is sympathy
[19:15] Speaker 1: for some things, empathy for others, for both people's things.
[19:20] Speaker 1: There is never blame, and it will be hard at times,
[19:23] Speaker 1: but there is never blame. And you always know you
[19:26] Speaker 1: are on the same side. Right. You always know like,
[19:30] Speaker 1: this person doesn't think this is my fault. Right. In
[19:32] Speaker 1: a trauma bond, you are made to feel like the aggressor.
[19:35] Speaker 1: You are made to feel like you were responsible for
[19:37] Speaker 1: triggering someone else's emotions and their behavior and their bad habits.
[19:42] Speaker 1: You're the reason they cheated, or their trauma is the
[19:45] Speaker 1: reason they cheated or did something terrible or were awful
[19:47] Speaker 1: to you or switched. So suddenly you're like, I don't
[19:50] Speaker 1: know who's the victim and who's the villain. I think
[19:53] Speaker 1: I'm the victim. I think I'm having a hard time,
[19:55] Speaker 1: but they've made everything so confusing. So these are the
[19:59] Speaker 1: five key signs of a t from a bond. Other
[20:01] Speaker 1: than that intimate reinforcement highs and lawyers we spoke about,
[20:05] Speaker 1: there is a distinct honeymoon period that you can recollect
[20:09] Speaker 1: and you can look back on that is slowly turning
[20:12] Speaker 1: into a nightmare period Number two. The strange desire to
[20:16] Speaker 1: initially want to help this person. There's this sense as
[20:19] Speaker 1: well that you should be able to manage their behavior
[20:23] Speaker 1: and that maybe their behavior is justified. It can be defended,
[20:27] Speaker 1: it can be minimized because it's not them, it's their hurt,
[20:31] Speaker 1: it's their pain, Like, you should be able to work
[20:34] Speaker 1: through this with them. You're not a bad person. You're
[20:36] Speaker 1: not going to abandon somebody who has trauma. Eventually, it
[20:39] Speaker 1: does also seem like their pain seems to hurt you
[20:42] Speaker 1: more than them, but you really care and you're just
[20:45] Speaker 1: trying to be kind. There's hypervigilance. Eventually you will get
[20:50] Speaker 1: to this stage of being like, I don't know what
[20:52] Speaker 1: is the right thing to say. I don't want to
[20:55] Speaker 1: make them angry. I don't want to make them mad
[20:59] Speaker 1: at me. So there is this lingering, ongoing stress response.
[21:04] Speaker 1: You reread every message, you reconsider everything you say, even
[21:08] Speaker 1: nice things that you want to do for them. You're like,
[21:10] Speaker 1: how can this be interpreted in the worst possible way?
[21:13] Speaker 1: Because you know their mind and their behavior is going
[21:15] Speaker 1: to go to that. There is isolation from support systems
[21:19] Speaker 1: and from yourself as well you as a support system.
[21:22] Speaker 1: They will find ways to detach you from people who
[21:25] Speaker 1: they know are going to interrupt what's happening, perhaps by
[21:30] Speaker 1: asking you to move in with them really quickly, demanding
[21:33] Speaker 1: all your time really quickly, asking you to move states
[21:36] Speaker 1: really quickly, telling you that like, they don't like your friends,
[21:40] Speaker 1: they don't like that guy that your friends with, they're jealous,
[21:43] Speaker 1: they don't think they're good for you. You should spend
[21:45] Speaker 1: all your time with them. They also make it hard
[21:49] Speaker 1: for you to leave. If you have ever sat in
[21:52] Speaker 1: this relationship and thought, I'm actually just deeply unhappy. I
[21:56] Speaker 1: don't like who I am in this kind of relationship.
[21:59] Speaker 1: This is not the person I want to be with.
[22:02] Speaker 1: But emotionally, you're like, leaving isn't really an option though like,
[22:05] Speaker 1: I can't leave. Part of me doesn't want to, but
[22:09] Speaker 1: I really know I should. That is a big sign
[22:12] Speaker 1: of a trauma bond. During my research, I actually came
[22:15] Speaker 1: across a test from this book on narcissistic abuse that
[22:20] Speaker 1: I think is really helpful and the author her name
[22:23] Speaker 1: is Vanessa. She basically devised this test to help people
[22:26] Speaker 1: gain that clarity that situation I was just talking about
[22:29] Speaker 1: where it's like I feel one thing, I think the other.
[22:34] Speaker 1: This test like helps cut through that chaos and just
[22:37] Speaker 1: be like no, definitively like, this is a bad situation,
[22:41] Speaker 1: so you can kind of return to this. But I
[22:43] Speaker 1: think this set of questions is really useful. First up,
[22:47] Speaker 1: would you want your friend's family, sister, brother to be
[22:53] Speaker 1: in this relationship? Would you want them to trade places
[22:56] Speaker 1: with you? Yes or no? Be does your situation look
[23:03] Speaker 1: toxic when you visualize somebody else in the same particament,
[23:07] Speaker 1: maybe a celebrity, maybe you're like a sibling or a friend.
[23:11] Speaker 1: See do you frequently find yourself thinking or having to
[23:16] Speaker 1: explain to others that, like they just simply don't understand
[23:20] Speaker 1: your relationship. Do you frequently have to justify the other
[23:23] Speaker 1: person's behavior you kind of have to pitch or like
[23:26] Speaker 1: sell parts of this person to others. Do you know
[23:31] Speaker 1: it is best to leave again, but you simply cannot.
[23:34] Speaker 1: Do you feel like there was an invisible force keeping
[23:37] Speaker 1: you to this person? And finally, do you feel confused, afraid,
[23:44] Speaker 1: scared when you are apart from them. If you are
[23:49] Speaker 1: answered to any of these things, it just gets you
[23:52] Speaker 1: thinking some of these aren't like yes or no. But
[23:55] Speaker 1: if they just get you thinking, I think it might
[23:57] Speaker 1: be worth just like sitting with this for a while
[23:58] Speaker 1: and being like, huh, how much of their behavior is
[24:03] Speaker 1: actually not okay? How much of an emotional haze are
[24:06] Speaker 1: they creating around our relationship to keep me hooked even
[24:10] Speaker 1: though they're treating me really really badly? Let's talk about why?
[24:15] Speaker 1: And this is like the natural next step. Why are
[24:16] Speaker 1: these bonds so hard to break? Though? Like what is
[24:19] Speaker 1: the magnetism? I think this question again comes up all
[24:22] Speaker 1: the time, like why don't you just leave this guy,
[24:24] Speaker 1: this girl, this person is awful to you. Think what
[24:27] Speaker 1: people don't understand is like what they're really asking, like
[24:31] Speaker 1: how psychologically imprisoning a situation like this is, Especially if
[24:35] Speaker 1: you are a kind, sensitive, empathetic person. If you are
[24:39] Speaker 1: somebody who truly wants to do their best by everybody,
[24:42] Speaker 1: you may see this person is genuinely just needing you
[24:45] Speaker 1: and fixable. No matter how much holding onto them hurts
[24:49] Speaker 1: and burns you, like, you still feel like it's your
[24:52] Speaker 1: job to make them better. There's also the fact that,
[24:55] Speaker 1: like your entire identity can become this person. Financially yeah, sure,
[25:00] Speaker 1: physically yes, mentally, they are your weekends. They are your evenings.
[25:06] Speaker 1: They are your thoughts. They are what you choose to wear,
[25:09] Speaker 1: what you choose to talk about, what you think will
[25:12] Speaker 1: impress them, what you say to avoid a fight. Again,
[25:16] Speaker 1: just to nail this point home, they are your safety.
[25:20] Speaker 1: They control the danger. They are what they bring danger
[25:23] Speaker 1: and sadness and harm and cruelty into your life. They
[25:26] Speaker 1: are also the one who can take it away. So
[25:29] Speaker 1: this means they control the negative. They also control the positive.
[25:32] Speaker 1: They control the highs, and they can position themselves as
[25:36] Speaker 1: well as a safe haven from other external disappointing things
[25:40] Speaker 1: in life. So you begin to like orbit them because
[25:43] Speaker 1: that's the only way that you feel secure is if
[25:45] Speaker 1: you're on their good side. Experts have actually pinpointed like
[25:52] Speaker 1: a seven stage cycle of trauma bonds to explain like
[25:57] Speaker 1: how deeply entrenched you become and what makes them so
[26:00] Speaker 1: hard to break and walk away from. We already know
[26:03] Speaker 1: like that first stage of like love bombing, indoctrination, vulnerability.
[26:09] Speaker 1: The second stage is like again when they start to
[26:13] Speaker 1: test things out, so they start to just be like
[26:16] Speaker 1: can I get away with this? Can I not get
[26:18] Speaker 1: away with this? What is this person? Gonna do. It's
[26:21] Speaker 1: at this point that if somebody kind of detects them,
[26:23] Speaker 1: or if somebody externally detects them and really like says something,
[26:27] Speaker 1: they'll often like abandon the relationship or they'll often be
[26:29] Speaker 1: like they'll switch it up and be like, oh, I
[26:32] Speaker 1: just I don't want to commitment, like, oh, you're this
[26:34] Speaker 1: person that like I'm not ready for this relationship because
[26:36] Speaker 1: they kind of consense like, oh, there's a few maybe
[26:39] Speaker 1: other guard rails, but if like some of them are
[26:42] Speaker 1: really sneaky, like if they just happen to get away
[26:44] Speaker 1: with it, or if they've waited longer and longer to
[26:47] Speaker 1: get away with it, sometimes it's just like very difficult
[26:52] Speaker 1: to recognize. So there is this period after the love
[26:56] Speaker 1: bombing of like settling at times, and then these like
[27:00] Speaker 1: short little sprinkles of like something's kind of happening behind
[27:05] Speaker 1: the scenes, like something's not going right. Then comes like
[27:09] Speaker 1: the more intense stuff, and it's not going to start
[27:12] Speaker 1: out with like somebody doing something terrible. Maybe it does,
[27:15] Speaker 1: but it's only it's mainly gonna be like criticism and devaluation.
[27:19] Speaker 1: It's often going to be like verbal and it's often
[27:23] Speaker 1: going to be things that like they can blame you
[27:27] Speaker 1: for right, So they're basically again it's like this boiling
[27:33] Speaker 1: water analogy. They're like slowly bringing you in, like how
[27:37] Speaker 1: can I make myself the victim here so that this
[27:42] Speaker 1: person you feels like the villain and I can get
[27:45] Speaker 1: this all twisted. This is also very critical because they
[27:49] Speaker 1: start to get you to want to earn their approval
[27:52] Speaker 1: or earn their forgiveness for things that you are not
[27:55] Speaker 1: at fault for. They really like they will work hard
[27:59] Speaker 1: at wisting reality to villainize you, to paint you as
[28:03] Speaker 1: the problem. So you kind of enter this dance where
[28:07] Speaker 1: like you feel blamed, you feel like you have to apologize.
[28:11] Speaker 1: You feel like if they were to walk away from
[28:13] Speaker 1: the relationship, it would be your fault. All of this
[28:16] Speaker 1: is like deeply manipulative. It is part of the trauma bond.
[28:19] Speaker 1: Then we get to the stage of like upping the ante.
[28:23] Speaker 1: This this is when we get into like the there's
[28:25] Speaker 1: full on gas sighting going on. You completely doubt yourself.
[28:29] Speaker 1: You suddenly uncover maybe lies that are happening in the relationship.
[28:33] Speaker 1: This is when you're really like, oh my god, maybe
[28:35] Speaker 1: something is wrong, but I am so in deep now
[28:38] Speaker 1: I am so bonded to this person, I feel so
[28:42] Speaker 1: much like agitation when I'm not around them, and I'm
[28:45] Speaker 1: so dependent on them for emotional validation that like, at
[28:48] Speaker 1: this point, I just have to get through this. And
[28:50] Speaker 1: there is this continued illusion of another side that came
[28:54] Speaker 1: at the beginning. This is continued illusion of like things
[28:56] Speaker 1: are going to get better. I think after a while,
[29:00] Speaker 1: when you realize this isn't going to happen, and this
[29:02] Speaker 1: is what researchers talk about, there is resignation essentially your
[29:05] Speaker 1: emotions and your body and your mind is like if
[29:07] Speaker 1: we're going to stay in this relationship, like we should
[29:09] Speaker 1: just switch off, Like we want to be with this person.
[29:12] Speaker 1: I care about this person. Maybe there are just parts
[29:14] Speaker 1: of this that like we just can't engage in. So
[29:17] Speaker 1: there is definitely a point that comes about where it's
[29:21] Speaker 1: not that you just don't care anymore, but you're kind
[29:24] Speaker 1: of just like, Okay, this is just how it is,
[29:26] Speaker 1: Like I'm just going to make myself small. I'm just
[29:29] Speaker 1: going to try and be good. And Stage six swiftly
[29:34] Speaker 1: follows the loss of self. After so many months of
[29:37] Speaker 1: this manipulation, you lose sight of who you are as
[29:40] Speaker 1: a person. You are what they want you to be.
[29:43] Speaker 1: You are not you. You are what is required to
[29:47] Speaker 1: make them stay in your life and to make them happy.
[29:50] Speaker 1: All these things what brings you joy, what makes you excited,
[29:53] Speaker 1: your plans for the future, your hobbies, your friends. It
[29:56] Speaker 1: would be very hard for you to say, because this
[29:59] Speaker 1: is when they get you to the point of like
[30:01] Speaker 1: you are indoctrinated into this relationship. Leaving doesn't just mean
[30:05] Speaker 1: giving up the relationship. It means giving up your entire
[30:08] Speaker 1: sense of self. It often means giving up money, It
[30:11] Speaker 1: means giving up all this time. It means complete emotional
[30:14] Speaker 1: withdrawal at this stage as well, like there may be
[30:18] Speaker 1: options for you, opportunities for somebody to be like I
[30:20] Speaker 1: don't want to be here anymore and want to walk away.
[30:22] Speaker 1: Friends may get involved, whatever, But often that's when the
[30:27] Speaker 1: cycle starts again. They will turn on the charm. They
[30:31] Speaker 1: will give you all this evidence that they are changing,
[30:34] Speaker 1: just to recommit you to the relationship. People who are
[30:37] Speaker 1: in trauma bonds talk about the fact that it's not
[30:40] Speaker 1: just one cycle. It's not just that they've gone through
[30:42] Speaker 1: the seven stages. Once they've gone through the seven stages,
[30:45] Speaker 1: like ten eleven, fifty times all over again, like somebody
[30:51] Speaker 1: bringing you back in so that you cannot leave. So,
[30:54] Speaker 1: if that is what's happening, If this is a slow
[30:56] Speaker 1: master plan to make you molded to this person, to
[31:01] Speaker 1: make you feel like they're everything, and you cannot walk away,
[31:05] Speaker 1: how do you walk away? This happens in many many ways,
[31:09] Speaker 1: Like obviously, like some people like their abuse that just
[31:13] Speaker 1: never lets them and they just are never able to.
[31:15] Speaker 1: But I do think that there does come a point
[31:18] Speaker 1: for the people who do walk away and the people
[31:20] Speaker 1: who have the help to walk away, where they're like,
[31:23] Speaker 1: oh my god, this is not love. And some people
[31:26] Speaker 1: describe it as an epiphany moment. Some people describe it
[31:29] Speaker 1: as a rock bottom other people describe it as like
[31:31] Speaker 1: this gradual realization of like this is not what people
[31:34] Speaker 1: fantasize about, like when I was a child thinking about love,
[31:38] Speaker 1: when I watched those beautiful romance movies when I was
[31:41] Speaker 1: a kid, Like this was not it. Who would want
[31:44] Speaker 1: to be in this situation? I don't see anybody else
[31:47] Speaker 1: in this situation, or maybe you do, but like I
[31:50] Speaker 1: don't want this for my kids, I don't want this
[31:52] Speaker 1: for my friends, Like I don't want this for myself,
[31:54] Speaker 1: this is not how I want to be loved for
[31:56] Speaker 1: the rest of my life. And I think choosing to
[31:59] Speaker 1: leave EVE requires acknowledging firstly, like that this is going
[32:05] Speaker 1: to be hard and mentally preparing for that first. It
[32:09] Speaker 1: will be at times emotionally difficult always, but also physically taxing.
[32:13] Speaker 1: This is something I rarely see people talk about people
[32:16] Speaker 1: who leave relationships like this, like I honestly believe they
[32:20] Speaker 1: should be entitled to sickly, like their entire immune system
[32:24] Speaker 1: has often become compromised from chronic stress. So there have
[32:27] Speaker 1: been all these like doctor reports or studies talking about
[32:30] Speaker 1: how when people finally walk away from these relationships, they
[32:32] Speaker 1: actually develop like month long sicknesses. They feel physically stricken down,
[32:38] Speaker 1: They get aches, fatigue, just colds, pneumonia, things they've never
[32:43] Speaker 1: gotten before because their body like stops running on cortersole
[32:47] Speaker 1: and stress and suddenly like the body has no more
[32:50] Speaker 1: reserves to fight off things that it's been holding back.
[32:53] Speaker 1: I wish people talked about this more like your body
[32:56] Speaker 1: sometimes does, like feel physically burdened by leaving this relationship,
[33:00] Speaker 1: so there needs to be an acknowledgment of that, but
[33:02] Speaker 1: also some grace around that that Yes, you're gonna feel
[33:05] Speaker 1: mentally shit, you're gonna feel physically probably not great as well.
[33:07] Speaker 1: That is all part of your body, I think, like
[33:09] Speaker 1: cleansing itself of this relationship. This is still grief, right this,
[33:15] Speaker 1: There is still a loss here. Our body grieves anything
[33:20] Speaker 1: that we were familiar with, anything that felt normal, uncomfortable.
[33:25] Speaker 1: Our loss of that, our lack of that, like our
[33:28] Speaker 1: removal from that, does feel like pain because it was
[33:31] Speaker 1: still something that you relied upon, even if it was unreliable.
[33:36] Speaker 1: This is not This is again not a sign that
[33:38] Speaker 1: you should go back to this person. It is simply
[33:42] Speaker 1: your body emotionally detoxing from a bond that had you addicted.
[33:48] Speaker 1: We also have to appreciate the huge emotional and psychological
[33:52] Speaker 1: draw of trauma bonds is how good they made you feel.
[33:56] Speaker 1: And those times are not discounted by the bad time.
[34:00] Speaker 1: You still live both times equally, both states of being
[34:04] Speaker 1: in that relationship were once you experienced, but because the
[34:07] Speaker 1: good times were contrasted with such powerful bad times, they
[34:10] Speaker 1: do kind of feel more emotionally profound. That's why the
[34:14] Speaker 1: first week, the first month after being like I'm done
[34:17] Speaker 1: with this, We're done, can actually be really confusing, and
[34:20] Speaker 1: I feel like people need to prepare for that. Expect
[34:23] Speaker 1: to not know how to feel, Expect to not necessarily
[34:27] Speaker 1: feel the elation you anticipated. Expect to question whether this
[34:31] Speaker 1: version of reality is one that you actually want it is.
[34:35] Speaker 1: Trust me, you do want this version of reality. You've
[34:37] Speaker 1: just got to get through this tiny period first. There's
[34:41] Speaker 1: also this cognitive dissonance, like why do I feel so
[34:43] Speaker 1: devastated yet so loyal? How could I hate them so
[34:47] Speaker 1: much and still care about them? Why do I feel
[34:50] Speaker 1: like I'm to blame and yet I didn't do anything wrong.
[34:54] Speaker 1: This is just your brain trying to regain its petive
[35:01] Speaker 1: and trying to retell the story in a way that
[35:04] Speaker 1: makes sense to you after it's been dictated by somebody
[35:07] Speaker 1: else for so so very long. Whatever comes up for you,
[35:14] Speaker 1: whatever like emerges, guilt, shame, fear, anger, sadness. It is
[35:23] Speaker 1: all just your mind suddenly coming up for air from
[35:28] Speaker 1: this terrible situation and suddenly encountering all these emotions that
[35:32] Speaker 1: have been suppressed and trying to make sense of them
[35:36] Speaker 1: so that it can pursue closure, so that it can
[35:38] Speaker 1: pursue emotional clarity, so that it can give this story
[35:43] Speaker 1: some kind of ending that shame, that guilt that is
[35:46] Speaker 1: not for you to bear. That is not your burden.
[35:48] Speaker 1: It is purely your mind trying to find the appropriate
[35:51] Speaker 1: emotional reaction and just drawing on anything it can from
[35:55] Speaker 1: the past that maybe slightly felt similar. That is not
[36:00] Speaker 1: the correct emotion guilt and shame, they will come up.
[36:03] Speaker 1: You did nothing wrong. You are not to blame for
[36:07] Speaker 1: their behavior. This is just physical and emotional withdrawal. This
[36:11] Speaker 1: is again you're just trying to make sense of it.
[36:14] Speaker 1: They are probably not going through the same things that
[36:17] Speaker 1: you're going through because they do not have a conscience.
[36:20] Speaker 1: They are probably not struggling in the same way that
[36:22] Speaker 1: you are. They are not sitting here contemplating did I
[36:25] Speaker 1: do anything bad? Did I do what was right? Did
[36:27] Speaker 1: I hurt this person? And that in itself is the
[36:30] Speaker 1: sign that they were the one to blame in this relationship,
[36:33] Speaker 1: because the very fact that you are considering even that
[36:36] Speaker 1: you have a role to play in this or considering
[36:39] Speaker 1: that you, you know, should feel some guilt, should feel
[36:42] Speaker 1: sorry for them, should feel some shame, shows that you
[36:45] Speaker 1: are a much better person than this individual and shows
[36:48] Speaker 1: that again, you have a conscience, you have care. They
[36:52] Speaker 1: do not have care. That is why they are not
[36:54] Speaker 1: considering it in this perspective. That is why, and that
[36:58] Speaker 1: is the clearest evidence that like they were the manipulator,
[37:02] Speaker 1: they were the cruel person in this situation. I want
[37:06] Speaker 1: to take another short break here so we can just
[37:09] Speaker 1: really focus again on how to trust, how to feel,
[37:12] Speaker 1: how to love, how to heal after these relationships, especially
[37:16] Speaker 1: if you are encountering it or enduring it in your twenties.
[37:19] Speaker 1: So stay with us, Go get a cup of tea.
[37:22] Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this short break. So we
[37:31] Speaker 1: did an episode a couple of weeks ago around how
[37:33] Speaker 1: to experience healthy love after toxic love that I would
[37:37] Speaker 1: highly recommend if you resonate with any of the things
[37:40] Speaker 1: that we're talking about today. But I thought, you know,
[37:43] Speaker 1: as we wrap up this episode, I would just give
[37:45] Speaker 1: you guys, like a little bit of a bite sized
[37:48] Speaker 1: summary right here, so that you just get like the
[37:51] Speaker 1: key high line points for this journey in this like
[37:55] Speaker 1: recovery that you're in recovering from a traumabone is never
[37:59] Speaker 1: not complex. But one of the best things that you
[38:01] Speaker 1: can do that I've heard from so many people is
[38:04] Speaker 1: to find as many objective witnesses as possible, and not
[38:09] Speaker 1: witnesses in like a legal sense sometimes that is equally necessary,
[38:12] Speaker 1: But I mean witnesses in the emotional sense. People who
[38:16] Speaker 1: you can be truly open about your relationship with now
[38:20] Speaker 1: that it's done. People who can and people who will
[38:23] Speaker 1: confirm for you again and again like that's not love,
[38:27] Speaker 1: that's not right, that person was bad, that was bad behavior.
[38:30] Speaker 1: People do not do that. You need those kinds of
[38:34] Speaker 1: emotional witnesses. I just finished reading Strangers by Bell Burden,
[38:40] Speaker 1: which I think is an amazing memoir if you are
[38:43] Speaker 1: going through this right now. And in her memoir, she
[38:46] Speaker 1: basically details how her husband of twenty years, out of
[38:50] Speaker 1: the blue, commits this terrible betrayal against her and takes
[38:55] Speaker 1: no accountability, but also then like abandons her and like
[38:58] Speaker 1: overnight abandons their family and their children. Is like, I
[39:02] Speaker 1: don't want I don't want anything to do with this.
[39:05] Speaker 1: And one of the most powerful things she talks about
[39:07] Speaker 1: in this book is this moment when someone completely out
[39:12] Speaker 1: of the situation, like outside of the situation, who really
[39:14] Speaker 1: doesn't know them very well, kind of tangentially, is like
[39:18] Speaker 1: that is bad, Like no, whatever you are thinking, he
[39:21] Speaker 1: shouldn't have done that. All your emotions about this are
[39:24] Speaker 1: completely correct, and she just talks about it as this relief.
[39:28] Speaker 1: This catharsis of like, finally somebody outside of me and
[39:30] Speaker 1: outside of us can tell me. This is what our
[39:34] Speaker 1: pain often needs. It needs a witness, It needs somebody
[39:37] Speaker 1: who will interrupt that self enforced gaslighting that sometimes lingers
[39:41] Speaker 1: when somebody else has externally gaslight you for a while.
[39:44] Speaker 1: We need somebody who's going to be like, that was wrong.
[39:47] Speaker 1: I can objectively, I don't have any skin in the
[39:49] Speaker 1: game here that person was bad. A therapist is obviously
[39:53] Speaker 1: the best case scenario here, if you have access to that,
[39:56] Speaker 1: or a counselor or a psychiatrist, anybody who is true
[40:00] Speaker 1: informed is incredible, But again sometimes that's not accessible. Even
[40:04] Speaker 1: just having friends, new systems of support, family members that
[40:08] Speaker 1: you trust who will resenter you with their honesty and
[40:11] Speaker 1: with their honesty about what they saw and what they
[40:16] Speaker 1: know about love and why that situation wasn't love is
[40:19] Speaker 1: extremely powerful, Especially because so much of your social life
[40:25] Speaker 1: and emotional life has been wound up in this other person.
[40:28] Speaker 1: It's going to be so easy to feel like you
[40:30] Speaker 1: should just retreat into your shell. Nobody wants to see
[40:34] Speaker 1: your emotional wounds. I promise they do. I promise. Like
[40:38] Speaker 1: people around you, especially after what you've been through, they
[40:41] Speaker 1: want the opportunity to love you, to heal you, to
[40:44] Speaker 1: be there for you. That is a language of love
[40:46] Speaker 1: that many people speak. They will provide that for you.
[40:49] Speaker 1: They want to help you. Next, you need to restructure
[40:53] Speaker 1: your beliefs. You might have deep rooted fears now that
[40:56] Speaker 1: people will abandon you, You are unworthy of love, you
[41:00] Speaker 1: did something wrong again not true. So it is so
[41:04] Speaker 1: important to take a step back and challenge that negative
[41:07] Speaker 1: self talk. That is not your voice. That is their voice.
[41:09] Speaker 1: That is the voice they implanted in your mind. I
[41:12] Speaker 1: need you to ask yourself like, is that really true?
[41:15] Speaker 1: Is that really true? Your brain will always focus on
[41:18] Speaker 1: the most negative thought you have about yourself, or about
[41:21] Speaker 1: the situation, or about the future of love and your life,
[41:24] Speaker 1: because you know it is the one that scares you
[41:27] Speaker 1: the most, and therefore it feels like the most important
[41:30] Speaker 1: thought to interrogate and to ruminate on, and to question
[41:35] Speaker 1: and to solve, or just to think about. Because it's
[41:38] Speaker 1: so scary. You think, if that one is true, we've
[41:40] Speaker 1: got to really sort that out. It's that age old
[41:43] Speaker 1: threat detection system we talk about on the podcast all
[41:45] Speaker 1: the time. Our brain is constantly scanning, like what is
[41:48] Speaker 1: going to take us down? Let's deal with that first.
[41:51] Speaker 1: The thing is that threat detection system has probably again
[41:55] Speaker 1: become hijacked by this other person, meaning your ability to
[41:59] Speaker 1: dismiss your fears is harder because in the past they
[42:03] Speaker 1: made them come true for you. They knew what your
[42:06] Speaker 1: fears were because they got you vulnerable and close, they
[42:09] Speaker 1: made them come true. So anything that gives you cognitive distance,
[42:14] Speaker 1: anything that lets you be the judge and jury of
[42:16] Speaker 1: your thoughts, not just the person who feels persecuted by
[42:20] Speaker 1: them or who feels like these thoughts are dropped into
[42:23] Speaker 1: your mind and you have to believe them. That is essential.
[42:26] Speaker 1: This involves or might involve, for you, locking your thoughts,
[42:30] Speaker 1: taking the false belief about whatever you're thinking, and providing
[42:36] Speaker 1: all the evidence that it's not true, providing or generating
[42:41] Speaker 1: five alternatives, making art from your thoughts, expressing them like
[42:46] Speaker 1: in a creative way. Maybe it involves reprogramming, through gratitude,
[42:51] Speaker 1: through therapy, whatever works for you. Know those thoughts are
[42:55] Speaker 1: not your own, find a way, find a practice that
[42:59] Speaker 1: lets you get that thought and kind of just examine
[43:02] Speaker 1: it and not commit to it, and know that, like
[43:06] Speaker 1: your mind, as powerful as this other person probably was
[43:09] Speaker 1: and definitely was in your life, you are equally as
[43:12] Speaker 1: powerful in changing those false beliefs and changing those narratives
[43:17] Speaker 1: that they've been planted in you, because now you get
[43:19] Speaker 1: access to your brain all the time you are in charge.
[43:23] Speaker 1: Think of it like weeding your internal garden of like
[43:26] Speaker 1: the invasive weeds and vines that they've planted. Think about, like,
[43:30] Speaker 1: visualize every time you take a negative thought you identified
[43:34] Speaker 1: as a thought they have planted, you like pull it
[43:38] Speaker 1: out from its roots and you throw it away. You
[43:41] Speaker 1: are cleaning up the garden, your garden. Finally, and obviously
[43:46] Speaker 1: there's a lot more to talk about, but for this episode, Finally,
[43:48] Speaker 1: the most important thing you can do after a relationship ends,
[43:51] Speaker 1: other than therapy, other than getting as much physical distance
[43:54] Speaker 1: from that person as possible, is to work on creating
[43:58] Speaker 1: a whole new universe of interests people, weekend plans, evening rituals,
[44:04] Speaker 1: creative rituals, practices, books, podcasts, favorite TV shows that they
[44:09] Speaker 1: have no connection to. They will never get to touch it.
[44:14] Speaker 1: They have never heard about those parts of yourself because
[44:18] Speaker 1: the things that you only started doing after them. If
[44:21] Speaker 1: this person was your whole world, it is time to
[44:24] Speaker 1: create another planet of your personality that is just for yourself.
[44:28] Speaker 1: They know nothing about this. This is all you. They
[44:31] Speaker 1: will never I just cannot express anything that you always
[44:35] Speaker 1: wanted to do when you were with them, and you
[44:37] Speaker 1: never told them about and you never tried. Now is
[44:39] Speaker 1: your time to do this. Now is your time to
[44:43] Speaker 1: put yourself at the center and to just completely replow
[44:48] Speaker 1: and replant the garden. You have to forcefully dislodge them
[44:53] Speaker 1: from your mind by pouring as much novelty, joy, newness
[44:58] Speaker 1: as you can back into your life. I had a
[45:01] Speaker 1: friend who left a relationship a couple of years back
[45:04] Speaker 1: now who it was definitely a trouba bond. I think
[45:07] Speaker 1: we always recognize that she definitely does now. And she
[45:12] Speaker 1: went and lived on a ranch for three months. Thankfully
[45:16] Speaker 1: she had the flexibility to do that. And when she
[45:19] Speaker 1: ran into him, I can't remember when. It was like
[45:22] Speaker 1: a year later. He was like asking her about all
[45:25] Speaker 1: these things that like she was doing, and she just
[45:29] Speaker 1: like had this realization of like, oh, you don't know
[45:31] Speaker 1: anything about me anymore because I'm not that person. I've
[45:35] Speaker 1: completely recreated myself in my image, in the image of
[45:40] Speaker 1: like what is going to make me happy? And I
[45:43] Speaker 1: think after these kinds of bonds, whether they lasted for
[45:46] Speaker 1: two months, two years, twenty years, like that is the
[45:49] Speaker 1: most powerful thing you can do anything to separate your
[45:53] Speaker 1: stories and to start essentially just like yeah, rewriting, rewriting,
[45:58] Speaker 1: I should say your own. So I think that is
[46:02] Speaker 1: all we have time for. I could talk about this
[46:03] Speaker 1: for so long. So if you have made it to
[46:05] Speaker 1: the end of this episode, thank you, And I hope
[46:08] Speaker 1: you're doing okay, and I hope that this has been
[46:10] Speaker 1: helpful for whatever situation you are in. I just it's
[46:15] Speaker 1: so difficult, whether you're trying to support a friend, whether
[46:18] Speaker 1: you're trying to avoid this in your own life, whether
[46:20] Speaker 1: you have been through this, like this is one of
[46:22] Speaker 1: the most awful, insidious kinds of relationships or bonds that
[46:27] Speaker 1: somebody can form with another human. So you're incredibly brave.
[46:31] Speaker 1: Hopefully now you are much more informed about what has
[46:35] Speaker 1: gone on and what will you know what has gone
[46:37] Speaker 1: on in your mind and your body to make this
[46:39] Speaker 1: kind of relationship so difficult to leave. And I'm just
[46:42] Speaker 1: wishing you the best of luck, and I'm wishing you
[46:44] Speaker 1: so much healing and self love and just like confidence
[46:50] Speaker 1: going forward. And I just know that you are going
[46:52] Speaker 1: to replant your garden with the most beautiful flowers and
[46:57] Speaker 1: in the most beautiful way, and you're going to create
[46:59] Speaker 1: an incredible life for yourself that this terrible, tiny, toxic
[47:03] Speaker 1: person can never touch. So thank you so much for listening.
[47:08] Speaker 1: Thank you as always to our researcher Lucy Davidson. If
[47:11] Speaker 1: you have made it this far and you were listening
[47:13] Speaker 1: on Spotify, and leave a little black heart in the
[47:15] Speaker 1: comments below, just so I know that you are still listening.
[47:18] Speaker 1: You can also follow us on Instagram at that Psychology
[47:21] Speaker 1: Podcast you can leave a five star review if you
[47:23] Speaker 1: feel cold to do so. You can follow us on substack.
[47:26] Speaker 1: There's so many things, honestly, just check out the description
[47:30] Speaker 1: of the episode and you can find all our links
[47:32] Speaker 1: to Netflix to all that stuff, as well as, as
[47:35] Speaker 1: I said, some further reading if this episode really resonated
[47:40] Speaker 1: with you. But as always, as we wrap up, and
[47:43] Speaker 1: especially with this episode, be safe, be kind, be gentle
[47:47] Speaker 1: to yourself. We will talk very very soon.

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