# The Atlassian Story: The Rise of the Tech Bros & the Ultimate Broken Partnership

An episode of [Straight Talk with Mark Bouris](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1572546872), 9 Sep 2026, 51 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/1c4759f0-81fc-4f35-85d1-b305004fc1e8/23a5351f-5403-453a-861e-b4bf004be8e4/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=573776d2-4dbd-4f2f-a825-b305004fc1ef

Two journalists from The Australian spent years digging into the real story behind tech giant Atlassian, and turned it into a book. It traces how two UNSW graduates built a global software company from a Glebe share house into a NASDAQ listed giant worth more than $100 billion at its peak. Along the way, Mike Cannon-Brookes and Scott Farquhar became best men at each other's weddings and eventually bought mansions next door to each other in Point Piper. But the book also uncovers how internal tensions, diverging lifestyles and a neighbourhood renovation dispute ultimately drove a wedge between them, turning one of Australia's greatest business partnerships into one of its most quietly broken. Purchase the book here: https://harpercollins.com.au/products/9781460769492 For more content like this: Subscribe to the Mentored newsletter here: https://the-mentored-platform-pty-ltd.myklpages.com/l/WWJGc5 Join my exclusive Mentored+ community: https://mentored.com.au/become-a-member/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: John Stensholder and Perry Williams. Welcome to Straight Talk.
[0:03] Speaker 2: Thanks for having us.
[0:04] Speaker 1: And I've got your book, Tech Bros. Is that you two?
[0:07] Speaker 3: He's dressed as a tech bro, just for you.
[0:10] Speaker 1: You are sort of channeling tech.
[0:12] Speaker 2: I dress for the occasion, but yeah, just to get
[0:15] Speaker 2: into character.
[0:16] Speaker 1: But maybe you could tell me what, or tell the audience,
[0:19] Speaker 1: by the way, what you both do anyway, day to day,
[0:22] Speaker 1: as opposed to writing a book.
[0:23] Speaker 3: We both work for the Australian newspaper. I edit the
[0:27] Speaker 3: richest 250 lists and I've been writing about Wealthy and
[0:30] Speaker 3: famous people for a long time and a bit of
[0:32] Speaker 3: sports business. Yeah, Perry?
[0:34] Speaker 2: And I'm Chief Business Correspondent at The Australian. Cover a
[0:38] Speaker 2: little bit of everything, you know, day-to-day markets, financial dramas,
[0:43] Speaker 2: and most recently, you know, I've been a tech reporter
[0:47] Speaker 2: of sorts with Tech Bros.
[0:49] Speaker 1: Are you guys tech-style people then?
[0:52] Speaker 3: Oh, look, if you look at the amount of grey
[0:54] Speaker 3: hair I've got, Mark would probably say that not really. Look...
[0:58] Speaker 3: How tech savvy do you need to be these days?
[0:59] Speaker 3: You do need to be tech savvy, you're right. But
[1:01] Speaker 3: I mean, these guys have been around for 25 years, right?
[1:04] Speaker 3: So probably charted them all the way up. So probably
[1:07] Speaker 3: around about the same age as these guys.
[1:09] Speaker 1: So you've been around for a long time?
[1:11] Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. Pretty much almost since day one, since they emerged.
[1:15] Speaker 3: I used to be at BOW magazine. They were on the, yeah,
[1:18] Speaker 3: remember the young rich list and stuff like that?
[1:19] Speaker 1: The fast starters?
[1:21] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yep.
[1:22] Speaker 3: Okay.
[1:22] Speaker 1: I remember those days.
[1:23] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:24] Speaker 1: To go to BOW.
[1:24] Speaker 3: Yep.
[1:25] Speaker 1: Actually, I'm, I remember pleading with him to get me
[1:27] Speaker 1: out of the BOW.
[1:30] Speaker 3: It's probably me that put you on, Mark. Sorry.
[1:31] Speaker 1: It was many years ago. It's not the place you
[1:33] Speaker 1: want to be, I can tell you. But it's interesting enough.
[1:37] Speaker 1: So you've been following for a long time, right back
[1:39] Speaker 1: to the BOW days. I'll be honest with you. Until
[1:43] Speaker 1: the last couple of years, I reckon most people I
[1:46] Speaker 1: know have never heard of them.
[1:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's probably the software thing, isn't it? If you
[1:50] Speaker 3: don't use the software, and it's not really like a
[1:53] Speaker 3: consumer product in that way, You wouldn't know, but they've
[1:57] Speaker 3: probably become a bit more famous for stuff outside their business.
[2:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I started to know about Cannon Brooks as
[2:02] Speaker 1: a result of his South Sydney sort of forays, for
[2:06] Speaker 1: obvious reasons. I'm not one of the roosters. But Farquhar,
[2:09] Speaker 1: I never heard, you don't hear boo about him. I
[2:14] Speaker 1: never hear about him at all.
[2:14] Speaker 3: All of a sudden, they're both worth $ 25 billion each
[2:17] Speaker 3: kind of thing. So they're in that, you know, that
[2:18] Speaker 3: rich list sphere in the business world. But yeah, they've
[2:21] Speaker 3: elevated themselves outside of Australia, I suppose, in that way.
[2:24] Speaker 1: Maybe you could give me a little bit of color
[2:26] Speaker 1: about Atlassian, Perry. Maybe you could just sort of tell
[2:30] Speaker 1: me where's the name come from for a start, but
[2:34] Speaker 1: what does Atlassian do? I mean, Canva I get.
[2:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. Look, they've got a couple of products,
[2:41] Speaker 2: Jira and Confluence, again, not household names.
[2:45] Speaker 3: Okay.
[2:46] Speaker 2: But what they do is they essentially allow companies, you know,
[2:51] Speaker 2: big corporates, you know, blue chip clients and so on
[2:55] Speaker 2: to be able to, you know, effectively kind of manage
[3:01] Speaker 2: big projects, tasks, workflows throughout an entire company. Essentially what
[3:06] Speaker 2: they were able to do was, you you know, have
[3:10] Speaker 2: different teams, different people all talking to each other and,
[3:14] Speaker 2: you know, basically link it all up into a single product.
[3:20] Speaker 2: And obviously, you know, they started really in the early
[3:24] Speaker 2: days of the dot-com boom.
[3:26] Speaker 1: So back in the late 90s, early 2000s. Yeah, yeah,
[3:28] Speaker 1: early 2000s.
[3:28] Speaker 2: And Probably one of the most impressive things is actually
[3:36] Speaker 2: the core products, which they came up with, you know,
[3:39] Speaker 2: in those early years, are actually still their core products now.
[3:43] Speaker 2: They still account for, you know, most of their, you know,
[3:47] Speaker 2: pretty extraordinary.
[3:48] Speaker 1: A bit like Microsoft, I guess, in some respects, because,
[3:51] Speaker 1: you know, Microsoft 360, like, is pretty much a similar
[3:55] Speaker 1: sort of product to what they've always had. Nothing's really
[3:57] Speaker 1: changed that much. I mean, there's been iterations of it,
[4:01] Speaker 1: but it's basically the same core thing. You know, it's
[4:04] Speaker 1: an operating system, effectively.
[4:06] Speaker 2: I was about to say, John, remind me of the name,
[4:10] Speaker 2: where the name came from.
[4:12] Speaker 3: Atlassian, yeah. Well, it's all about the Atlas and having
[4:16] Speaker 3: the world on your shoulders kind of thing, the burden
[4:17] Speaker 3: of the world on your shoulders. They started as a
[4:21] Speaker 3: service business, right, just out of their party house in Glebe,
[4:26] Speaker 3: which is one of the narratives in the book about
[4:28] Speaker 3: You know, they were basically taking phone calls from overseas
[4:31] Speaker 3: and they were like, they want to provide superior service
[4:33] Speaker 3: and like the best service in the world. So Atlas,
[4:35] Speaker 3: you know, the sort of the Greek God, you know,
[4:39] Speaker 3: world on their shoulders, we're going to provide Atlassian style service.
[4:41] Speaker 3: So the best in the world, you know, we're going
[4:43] Speaker 3: to support, we're going to support people. And that was
[4:46] Speaker 3: where the name came from. It's a pretty catchy name
[4:47] Speaker 3: to be fair. Yeah.
[4:48] Speaker 1: No, no, no, no. So- I am like Atlas.
[4:52] Speaker 3: Yes.
[4:52] Speaker 1: I'm Atlassian.
[4:54] Speaker 3: Correct.
[4:54] Speaker 1: That's the idea of it. Yeah. Because Atlas got demoted
[4:58] Speaker 1: to that position to carry the world on his shoulders.
[5:00] Speaker 1: That was as a result of him having a misdemeanor,
[5:03] Speaker 1: and he had to carry that for.
[5:04] Speaker 3: The rest of his– It was an immense burden, wasn't it? Yeah.
[5:06] Speaker 1: It was a burden for the rest of his– whatever
[5:08] Speaker 1: his godly life was going to be. So I get it.
[5:13] Speaker 1: And were they technologists?
[5:16] Speaker 3: They both went to university together. So this is the
[5:20] Speaker 3: great story. So they went to the Uni of New
[5:21] Speaker 3: South Wales. They were in a tech course. It was
[5:24] Speaker 3: a pretty, you know, back in the, they started in
[5:27] Speaker 3: the late 90s and they graduated in nearly 2000. So
[5:30] Speaker 3: around that time, you know, these sort of tech commerce
[5:33] Speaker 3: kind of degrees, they're still, you know, pretty, they're kind
[5:38] Speaker 3: of fledgling in a way. So they met at uni,
[5:40] Speaker 3: you know, they had that uni life, were in the
[5:42] Speaker 3: same class and, you know, Scott sort of, the guy
[5:45] Speaker 3: who mixes all the drinks and the alcohol, and they
[5:47] Speaker 3: have a great time, and he's the guy doing the
[5:49] Speaker 3: parties for the class. But they are tech nerds, right?
[5:53] Speaker 3: So they're tech nerds together, and it gets to a
[5:55] Speaker 3: stage where they're about to graduate, the tech crash has happened,
[6:00] Speaker 3: and they're like, oh, what are we going to do next?
[6:01] Speaker 3: Are we going to go off and do a graduate
[6:03] Speaker 3: role at KPMG or one of these places? It was
[6:05] Speaker 3: $ 48, 500 a year was going to be the graduate salary.
[6:12] Speaker 3: And Mike famously goes, well, I don't want to do that.
[6:16] Speaker 3: Does anyone in the class want to run their own business?
[6:19] Speaker 3: So he sends out an email to everyone, and Scott's
[6:21] Speaker 3: the only guy that replies. Yeah, well, let's have a crack.
[6:23] Speaker 1: They didn't know each other, so to speak.
[6:25] Speaker 3: Well, they did, but they weren't besties, but they were
[6:29] Speaker 3: around the same circles. So they were in the same
[6:31] Speaker 3: class and that sort of stuff. So definitely known to
[6:32] Speaker 3: each other, but that's how the famous story. So it
[6:35] Speaker 3: all starts with an email.
[6:36] Speaker 1: Wow. Why did you guys write the book then?
[6:39] Speaker 3: Well, we were doing some investigations last year at The Australian.
[6:43] Speaker 3: And to fast forward to the year before last, Scott
[6:47] Speaker 3: leaves the business pretty suddenly, steps down as co-CEO after
[6:50] Speaker 3: they've created this amazing– and it was worth $ 100- odd US
[6:54] Speaker 3: billion only a few years ago, right? So it's amazing
[6:56] Speaker 3: sort of from nothing to this. And the whole narrative
[6:59] Speaker 3: along the time was that they were great mates. They're
[7:02] Speaker 3: literally collaboration software. Their ticker on the NASDAQ is team.
[7:07] Speaker 3: So everything was about doing things together. They famously bought
[7:10] Speaker 3: two houses together, Point Piper, which is a big part
[7:13] Speaker 3: of the narrative in terms of how they bust up
[7:15] Speaker 3: a bit later. And we heard that maybe things weren't
[7:18] Speaker 3: quite as they seem. So we go and do a
[7:21] Speaker 3: bit of digging. It turns out that they had a
[7:23] Speaker 3: few fallings out along the way. And Scott gets to
[7:26] Speaker 3: the stage, even when Scott has his big farewell, Mike's
[7:29] Speaker 3: not invited to the farewell. So we're like, well, what's
[7:31] Speaker 3: going on here? And so we write a bunch of
[7:33] Speaker 3: stories in the paper, and then we get into a
[7:36] Speaker 3: book a little while later, and here we are.
[7:38] Speaker 1: So it's interesting how you guys find stuff out. I mean,
[7:42] Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to divulge your sources, but what
[7:45] Speaker 1: made you get interested in what these two guys are doing?
[7:47] Speaker 1: Was it the fact that they were multi-billionaires? They were
[7:50] Speaker 1: going from zero to 100 billion in, relatively speaking, short period?
[7:53] Speaker 1: Or is it because they've done it through technology? Or
[7:57] Speaker 1: was it because their personalities changed? not not not the
[8:01] Speaker 1: part where you heard they fell out but just interest
[8:04] Speaker 1: in the in atlas in from like from the early days.
[8:07] Speaker 3: Yeah well it's a great story to start with right
[8:09] Speaker 3: because they literally start with nothing well you know they
[8:11] Speaker 3: start with a little more than a bit more than
[8:13] Speaker 3: nothing which we detail but they start with nothing they
[8:16] Speaker 3: build this amazing australian so global success story from australia
[8:19] Speaker 3: yeah but also along the way they've packed in so
[8:21] Speaker 3: much other stuff like Cannon Brooks becomes this climate sort
[8:25] Speaker 3: of warrior. Is he a climate warrior?
[8:27] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
[8:28] Speaker 3: He had a big tilt at AGL. Yeah, I remember that.
[8:32] Speaker 3: His whole idea was to turn the sort of dirty
[8:34] Speaker 3: coal business into a clean energy business, and it's still evolving.
[8:38] Speaker 3: He buys into South Sydney. He buys into the Utah Jazz. Yeah,
[8:42] Speaker 3: so he's in the NRL. He's in the NBA as well.
[8:45] Speaker 3: Farquhar does a whole bunch of other investments as well.
[8:48] Speaker 3: They both have done a lot outside just their business,
[8:51] Speaker 3: so we figured it was an interesting story. And we
[8:53] Speaker 3: found out a hell of a lot more.
[8:55] Speaker 1: Are they both sort of green warriors, environmental warriors?
[9:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I mean, Mike in particular, you know, really
[9:04] Speaker 2: made himself like the face of a very sort of
[9:07] Speaker 2: public campaign. You know, you remember Greta Thunberg, you know,
[9:12] Speaker 2: and the school strikes for climate. You know, I think
[9:16] Speaker 2: it was on Fridays, schools would shut down, all these
[9:19] Speaker 2: climate Mike was passionately behind that. He wanted Atlassian staff
[9:29] Speaker 2: to take the day off and really show their climate
[9:33] Speaker 2: stripes and so on. And that led to his AGL
[9:38] Speaker 2: energy investment. Scott probably had a similar outlook on life,
[9:44] Speaker 2: but I think for Scott, the main game was Atlassian. And,
[9:48] Speaker 2: you know, Mike all of a sudden had a lot
[9:52] Speaker 2: of distractions and, you know, his main game kind of
[9:55] Speaker 2: appeared to be, you know, being a climate warrior.
[9:58] Speaker 1: Would you call him activist? With AGL they were, but yeah.
[10:04] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say he was an activist.
[10:06] Speaker 1: Sorry to interrupt, but was it just Mike on AGL
[10:09] Speaker 1: or was Scott involved in that?
[10:10] Speaker 2: No, just Mike.
[10:11] Speaker 1: Just Mike. So would you call him an activist?
[10:13] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[10:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it was an activist play on AGL. Yeah,
[10:18] Speaker 2: just to go back, I mean, Mike, it was a
[10:21] Speaker 2: bit of an unlikely pairing, teamed up with Brookfield, a
[10:24] Speaker 2: big Canadian investor, to take over AGL. Twice they got rebuffed,
[10:32] Speaker 2: and what Mike ended up doing is buying, you know, 11%
[10:37] Speaker 2: stake in AGL and trying to sort of influence the company.
[10:41] Speaker 2: He called it the biggest– sort of fossil fuel project
[10:46] Speaker 2: he could find in the world because, you know, he
[10:48] Speaker 2: wanted to get inside the company and change it. So, yeah,
[10:51] Speaker 2: I think that's almost the definition of activist.
[10:54] Speaker 1: It seems to me that one was more activist, more
[10:59] Speaker 1: active than the other one. Or is that just from
[11:03] Speaker 1: gleaning publicly?
[11:05] Speaker 3: That probably goes to their personalities too, right? So, you know, yeah, absolutely.
[11:08] Speaker 3: Mike was more public. He was using social media more.
[11:11] Speaker 3: He was talking to Elon Musk on Twitter, now ex,
[11:13] Speaker 3: you know, back in the, they did this battery deal
[11:15] Speaker 3: in South Australia.
[11:16] Speaker 1: I remember that. Yeah.
[11:17] Speaker 3: So he's doing things like that. He's going after- That
[11:19] Speaker 3: wasn't a bad deal, actually. Yeah, absolutely. It was a
[11:21] Speaker 3: great deal. It was admirable.
[11:22] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[11:22] Speaker 3: And going after Scott Morrison about coal, you know, using
[11:25] Speaker 3: social media a lot, using the platform that he had
[11:28] Speaker 3: from the money that he's made to do that. Scott
[11:30] Speaker 3: is a bit more of a quieter character. So he's
[11:32] Speaker 3: a bit more like, that's what he was investing in
[11:35] Speaker 3: with his money. Like he certainly probably held the same principles,
[11:38] Speaker 3: but he was doing it more sort of like, You know,
[11:41] Speaker 3: like he was putting his money where his mouth probably wasn't,
[11:44] Speaker 3: but he was still sort of behind it. So he
[11:47] Speaker 3: was doing a lot of investing in or potential investing
[11:49] Speaker 3: in infrastructure that, you know, would provide green energy or
[11:52] Speaker 3: other things like that. So whereas Mike was a lot
[11:54] Speaker 3: more out there. Yeah, he was on ABC. He was on,
[11:57] Speaker 3: you know, he was on television. He was doing, you know,
[11:59] Speaker 3: 60 Minutes. He was doing all sorts of things like that.
[12:01] Speaker 3: Scott wasn't doing that publicly, and that's probably part of
[12:05] Speaker 3: where they sort of, you know, started to diverge when
[12:07] Speaker 3: it come to Atlassian.
[12:08] Speaker 1: Scott and Mike, were they both running, they were co-CEOs
[12:11] Speaker 1: of Atlassian, obviously co-founders, but co-CEOs of Atlassian. Was one
[12:17] Speaker 1: responsible for one part of the business and the other
[12:19] Speaker 1: was responsible for another part of the business? Are they
[12:21] Speaker 1: different skill sets?
[12:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, they actually sort of swapped round duties kind of over,
[12:28] Speaker 2: you know, you've got to imagine this happened over a
[12:29] Speaker 2: couple of decades. So, you know, they sort of both
[12:34] Speaker 2: had their strengths, but they did, consciously try and kind
[12:37] Speaker 2: of move it around um a little bit so they
[12:39] Speaker 2: kind of you know continued testing themselves um but you
[12:44] Speaker 2: know i i think probably as as the money and
[12:49] Speaker 2: the riches started to to flow in um you kind
[12:53] Speaker 2: of had this situation where there was sort of a
[12:55] Speaker 2: team mike and a team scott uh you know that
[12:58] Speaker 2: emerged you know within atlassian within the business yeah within
[13:02] Speaker 2: the business and You know, I think that became sort
[13:06] Speaker 2: of quite awkward and quite difficult to handle as well.
[13:08] Speaker 2: You know, you sort of had Mike sort of being
[13:11] Speaker 2: the more outgoing personality, probably attracted a certain, you know, following,
[13:17] Speaker 2: I guess, you know, was in the company. And Scott
[13:20] Speaker 2: being a bit quieter, probably cracked the whip a little
[13:23] Speaker 2: bit more.
[13:24] Speaker 1: Very.
[13:25] Speaker 2: cost conscious um you know this is from us you
[13:28] Speaker 2: know sort of talking to a sort of dozens of
[13:30] Speaker 2: people um have worked there um you know kept a
[13:33] Speaker 2: really tight rein on on budgets and so on and
[13:36] Speaker 2: and you started to kind of see a little bit
[13:37] Speaker 2: of a divergence there.
[13:39] Speaker 1: So it's so for people like yourself when you see
[13:41] Speaker 1: a like like let's call it a split is is
[13:45] Speaker 1: that what sort of interests you like is that is
[13:48] Speaker 1: that sort of um Fertile ground.
[13:50] Speaker 2: But I think you've probably seen this in your business life, Mark,
[13:53] Speaker 2: and certainly John and I have. I mean, you know,
[13:56] Speaker 2: dozens of official announcements, you know, X person off to
[14:03] Speaker 2: spend more time with their family. Personal reasons.
[14:07] Speaker 3: Personal reasons.
[14:08] Speaker 2: And, you know, you read it and, you know, you're
[14:11] Speaker 2: left sort of scratching your head. Occasionally, someone gets to
[14:15] Speaker 2: the bottom of what really went on. Often they don't. And,
[14:19] Speaker 2: you know, I think that's where our stories and the
[14:23] Speaker 2: book started. You know, we heard a few whispers that
[14:27] Speaker 2: there was a little bit more to Scott standing down.
[14:30] Speaker 2: And that's really where it started. And, you know, I'd
[14:35] Speaker 2: done a lot of reporting with a sort of energy
[14:39] Speaker 2: hat on, so I was quite familiar with Mike from
[14:41] Speaker 2: an energy perspective. John, obviously, charting the two billionaires. And,
[14:48] Speaker 2: you know, it was this over-the-fence sort of Barney over
[14:53] Speaker 2: a renovation, which is where we kind of started calling people.
[14:58] Speaker 1: You heard about that? Yeah. You did hear about that,
[15:00] Speaker 1: and that's when you started calling?
[15:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's when we started calling. And The really interesting
[15:06] Speaker 2: thing was we started where the houses are in the
[15:11] Speaker 2: eastern suburbs. We started calling around.
[15:13] Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. So what do they do? They
[15:16] Speaker 1: go and buy what?
[15:17] Speaker 3: So yeah, just a mere $ 170 million spent of two
[15:21] Speaker 3: houses in Point Piper.
[15:23] Speaker 1: Two houses next door to each other?
[15:24] Speaker 3: Yeah, Fairwater and Elaine. So one of them, Farquhar buys
[15:26] Speaker 3: Elaine first, $ 70 million. It was circa 2018-ish, and then
[15:27] Speaker 3: a year later, Canon Brooks buys a place next door
[15:33] Speaker 3: for $ 100 million. Now, you know, and the narrative from them,
[15:36] Speaker 3: and they're very good storytellers, right? You know, look, tech
[15:39] Speaker 3: founders are a lot like that. Because, you know, like,
[15:41] Speaker 3: you know, there's a founder story with a lot of people.
[15:43] Speaker 3: You know, we do this, we meet here, and there's
[15:45] Speaker 3: an inflection point here, and then they grow the company there. And,
[15:48] Speaker 3: you know, Elon Musk has a great story, and, you know,
[15:51] Speaker 3: Tim Cook and all these people from, you know, all
[15:53] Speaker 3: that sort of thing. So there's that along the way,
[15:55] Speaker 3: and then they're going to live happily ever after.
[15:58] Speaker 1: Next door to each other.
[15:58] Speaker 3: Next door to each other.
[15:59] Speaker 1: In Point Piper.
[15:59] Speaker 3: Because they're best mates.
[16:01] Speaker 1: One of the houses they bought was Mary Fairfax's house.
[16:03] Speaker 3: Yes, that's right. So they're both sort of Fairfax estate.
[16:05] Speaker 1: Who bought the Fairfax house?
[16:06] Speaker 3: Mary Fairfax.
[16:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, so there was- Lady Mary.
[16:08] Speaker 3: Lady Mary. That was the $ 100 million one. So- Yeah,
[16:11] Speaker 3: so Cannon Brooks buys that a year after Elaine next
[16:13] Speaker 3: door that Scott had bought. So they're going to live happily.
[16:16] Speaker 1: And one was Vincent Fairfax's house.
[16:18] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Originally. And they were both record setters.
[16:21] Speaker 3: One was a record one year, then another one was-
[16:23] Speaker 3: So the whole narrative was, we're going to live happily
[16:25] Speaker 3: ever after together. The kids- We'll knock down the fence
[16:27] Speaker 3: between it. The kids can run around and so on
[16:29] Speaker 3: and so forth.
[16:30] Speaker 1: And the wives.
[16:31] Speaker 3: And the wives.
[16:31] Speaker 1: Have a cup of tea with each other.
[16:32] Speaker 3: Correct. Yeah, that's right. Now that's, you know, there were
[16:34] Speaker 3: cracks there after a while too. But, and so you
[16:37] Speaker 3: get to a stage where, you know, the houses were
[16:40] Speaker 3: pretty run down, you know, in a rich mansion kind
[16:43] Speaker 3: of sense, right? Yeah, yeah. Scott wants to do a
[16:45] Speaker 3: big renovation on his, right? So $ 45 million reno. So
[16:48] Speaker 3: Scott wants to do it on his- Elaine. Elaine, yeah.
[16:51] Speaker 1: So that's Vincent Fairfax's house.
[16:54] Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was a bit more run down than
[16:55] Speaker 3: the one next door, right?
[16:56] Speaker 1: Because Bob Rose used to live there.
[16:58] Speaker 3: Yeah, right, okay. At one stage, yes. That was a
[17:00] Speaker 3: while ago, right? Before, yeah. And then so, you know,
[17:04] Speaker 3: he puts the word out he wants to do a reno, right?
[17:07] Speaker 3: So $ 45 million reno, which is a pretty substantial revamp
[17:10] Speaker 3: of what was there.
[17:11] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[17:12] Speaker 3: You know, there's renders that are drawn up and the
[17:14] Speaker 3: architects have a great, you know, great look at it
[17:16] Speaker 3: and so on and so forth. But then it very
[17:18] Speaker 3: quickly turns out that the bloke next door or the
[17:22] Speaker 3: wife next door ain't too happy about the renos, which
[17:25] Speaker 3: is a classic Australian thing, right?
[17:26] Speaker 1: So that's Cannon Brooks' wife.
[17:27] Speaker 3: Correct. And so who's next door? It's the Cannon Brooks'.
[17:30] Speaker 3: So what's going on here? Aren't they talking to each other?
[17:33] Speaker 1: I mean, we're in the hole in the fence.
[17:35] Speaker 3: Exactly. That's all. So what's happened here?
[17:37] Speaker 1: Are they just saying go chat to each other about it? No, no.
[17:40] Speaker 3: This is what happens internally at Atlassian as dozens of
[17:43] Speaker 3: people tell us. Well, one gets surprised by the other.
[17:46] Speaker 3: It even turns out that they're so worried about it
[17:48] Speaker 3: that at one stage, Annie gets scaffolding put up. Who's Annie?
[17:51] Speaker 3: Annie is, sorry, Annie Cannon-Brooks, who's Mike's dead wife. They've
[17:55] Speaker 3: split up since. So she's worried about the reno. And,
[17:58] Speaker 3: you know, look, if you're getting a house built, built
[18:00] Speaker 3: next door, is it going to cast a shadow or
[18:02] Speaker 3: are they going to look into your bedroom? So she
[18:04] Speaker 3: gets scaffolding put up to show what it would look like.
[18:07] Speaker 3: And she's horrified by this, right? So the word goes
[18:10] Speaker 3: out pretty quickly that the neighbours, i.e. the bloke that
[18:14] Speaker 3: I'm working with as a co-CEO.
[18:15] Speaker 1: My best mate.
[18:16] Speaker 3: My best mate, allegedly, doesn't want us to do the reno.
[18:19] Speaker 3: So they pulled it before they basically put it in.
[18:22] Speaker 3: They were going to put it in the council and
[18:24] Speaker 3: it's gone.
[18:24] Speaker 1: Although they didn't lodge the D.A.
[18:26] Speaker 3: They put out all the renders and talked about it
[18:29] Speaker 3: to the media and then like, it's going to be
[18:30] Speaker 3: lodged in the next couple of weeks. But, you know,
[18:32] Speaker 3: word quickly got back to them that the neighbors didn't
[18:37] Speaker 3: want it.
[18:38] Speaker 1: So the Cannon-Brooks at the time, husband and wife at
[18:41] Speaker 1: the time, they were going to object formally if this
[18:45] Speaker 1: DA was lodged. Because of some impeachment or impingement, I
[18:50] Speaker 1: should say, in relation to perhaps their privacy or something
[18:54] Speaker 1: they didn't like the look of. Yes. By the way,
[18:56] Speaker 1: we're talking about $ 45 million renovation. Yes. That's not like
[19:01] Speaker 1: a renovation.
[19:02] Speaker 3: It was a complete revamp of a historical house.
[19:05] Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely.
[19:06] Speaker 3: And I think there was maybe only a small element
[19:08] Speaker 3: of the historic part that was going to be kept.
[19:10] Speaker 3: And there was like a rooftop tennis court and all
[19:13] Speaker 3: sorts of stuff.
[19:13] Speaker 2: Whoa.
[19:14] Speaker 3: That's right. Seriously. Yeah. There was a big reno.
[19:17] Speaker 1: Well, just for context for people who don't know the spot.
[19:20] Speaker 1: So it's on New South Head Road, but it's right
[19:22] Speaker 1: on the waterfront. They both go down to the water.
[19:26] Speaker 1: They both got beaches in front of them. And they probably,
[19:30] Speaker 1: I can't remember how big a lane was, but certainly
[19:33] Speaker 1: Lady Mary Fairfax's house, whose home I'd been into many times,
[19:38] Speaker 1: was probably sitting on a block of land close to
[19:41] Speaker 1: an acre. Something like that. Um, it was like an
[19:44] Speaker 1: enormous block of land.
[19:45] Speaker 3: Beautiful grounds, didn't it? Beautiful grounds. Functions held there.
[19:48] Speaker 1: Actually, my uncle, my dad's brother. young's brother, was the groundsman.
[19:51] Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
[19:52] Speaker 3: There you go.
[19:53] Speaker 1: Right up until, even after Mary passed away.
[19:55] Speaker 3: Right.
[19:56] Speaker 1: And it was between Charles and his sister.
[19:58] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[19:58] Speaker 1: And my uncle, Uncle Arthur, he was the groundsman there
[20:02] Speaker 1: and I often used to go and see him there.
[20:04] Speaker 1: And my kids went to school across the road and
[20:06] Speaker 1: he used to see my kids, my kids used to
[20:08] Speaker 1: see him after school and stuff like that. Uncle Arthur. And, yeah,
[20:12] Speaker 1: so I knew the property quite well, and I'd been
[20:13] Speaker 1: there to see Mary a few times after Warwick had
[20:17] Speaker 1: passed away. And, yeah, so I got to meet the kids.
[20:20] Speaker 1: It was an– actually, it's an amazing bit of land.
[20:23] Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, probably as good as it gets in
[20:27] Speaker 1: Point Blight.
[20:27] Speaker 3: The views are amazing.
[20:28] Speaker 1: Amazing. And on the beach.
[20:29] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[20:30] Speaker 1: So there was actually sand there. So– and the land
[20:33] Speaker 1: was something somewhat similar. So– What's interesting about this is
[20:37] Speaker 1: that they both probably needed money spent on, but probably
[20:41] Speaker 1: were underutilized in terms of the amount of space they got. Sure.
[20:44] Speaker 1: You could probably put a whole lot more stuff there. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[20:47] Speaker 1: So Scott decided, him and his wife, I presume they're
[20:52] Speaker 1: still married.
[20:52] Speaker 3: Yes.
[20:53] Speaker 1: They decided that they're going to make the best of it.
[20:56] Speaker 1: Didn't lodge the DA in the end because their neighbors
[21:00] Speaker 1: and his business partner were going to object to it. Yep.
[21:04] Speaker 1: So what happens then?
[21:05] Speaker 3: Well, Scott and Kim Jackson, his wife, don't end up
[21:09] Speaker 3: living there.
[21:10] Speaker 1: They never live there?
[21:11] Speaker 3: They never live there. How much do they make for it? 70. 71, sorry.
[21:15] Speaker 3: 71 million?
[21:15] Speaker 1: Yep. They never live there?
[21:16] Speaker 3: And then they, so they were renting another place for
[21:18] Speaker 3: a while nearby, and they ended up buying, is it
[21:22] Speaker 3: pronounced Weig Lodge, which is up the road for 130
[21:25] Speaker 3: million a couple of years ago. So that's where they
[21:27] Speaker 3: live today.
[21:28] Speaker 1: So do they still own Elaine?
[21:30] Speaker 3: They've sold it to a developer that now, there was
[21:33] Speaker 3: a consortium that put together that wanted to, carve it
[21:36] Speaker 3: up into four, what would you sort of say, let's say,
[21:40] Speaker 3: let's call it, you know, high-end sort of retirement, sort
[21:42] Speaker 3: of aged care sort of facilities, which is still not, still,
[21:47] Speaker 3: you know, the work is not underway there. And I
[21:49] Speaker 3: don't think it even has the necessarily, you know, fast-tracked
[21:53] Speaker 3: approvals or anything like that. So it's just sitting there vacant.
[21:56] Speaker 1: So do the Cannonbrook still own Fairwater? Yes. Yes.
[22:01] Speaker 3: Again, it's vacant.
[22:02] Speaker 1: I can sort of imagine their conversation. Listen, if you're
[22:04] Speaker 1: not going to approve it, we'll sell it. There's somebody
[22:06] Speaker 1: else who will do it.
[22:08] Speaker 3: You won't end up with something worse next door. You
[22:10] Speaker 3: could end up with something worse. Well, you will.
[22:11] Speaker 1: You're going to have four lots of whatever they're going
[22:14] Speaker 1: to have there. It's not a great outcome. Did the
[22:16] Speaker 1: Kennerbrooks ever move into Fairwater?
[22:18] Speaker 3: For a little bit. I think it was so run
[22:21] Speaker 3: down that the story goes that it got so cold
[22:26] Speaker 3: that they were wearing ski gear inside. It's a really
[22:28] Speaker 3: old joint.
[22:29] Speaker 1: It's a big old drafty place. It's like massive ceilings
[22:33] Speaker 1: and like huge entry foyers and, you know, like grand staircases.
[22:39] Speaker 1: It's very grand, but it wouldn't have been built for
[22:43] Speaker 1: a cold winter.
[22:43] Speaker 3: Yeah, in a modern sort of, you know, Australian family.
[22:45] Speaker 1: The way we'd like to have it in a modern sense.
[22:47] Speaker 3: So it's empty as well. And so.
[22:49] Speaker 1: So we've got 100 and what was then 170 million.
[22:51] Speaker 1: It's probably worth much more now because like property prices
[22:55] Speaker 1: since that period. What year are.
[22:57] Speaker 3: We talking about? We're talking about 2019.
[23:00] Speaker 1: Okay, seven years past. It's probably worth double. Sure. So
[23:03] Speaker 1: we're talking about. We're talking about now $ 300 odd million
[23:08] Speaker 1: worth of real estate just sitting there unlived in.
[23:13] Speaker 3: Sorry, Scott sells the one that he bought for $ 71
[23:16] Speaker 3: for $ 130.
[23:16] Speaker 1: It's still not been lived in. Yeah.
[23:18] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. And so, yeah, so that's right.
[23:20] Speaker 2: Off the back of this.
[23:20] Speaker 3: So Fairwater would be worth a lot more.
[23:22] Speaker 1: Off the back of this so-called dispute.
[23:23] Speaker 3: Sure.
[23:24] Speaker 1: Yeah. And then they've gone and spent the same amount
[23:26] Speaker 1: of money buying other stuff in other places. Yep.
[23:28] Speaker 3: Yep. And meanwhile, Mike and Annie have split up and
[23:31] Speaker 3: they both basically live in the Southern Highlands now.
[23:34] Speaker 1: They moved down to the Southern Highlands. Yep.
[23:38] Speaker 2: And, I mean, during– well, in the years after this
[23:41] Speaker 2: period as well, Mike goes on this extraordinary property spree.
[23:47] Speaker 1: Buying property?
[23:48] Speaker 2: Oh, buying property all over. A dozen houses.
[23:53] Speaker 3: It's 35 properties all up that we at least know of.
[23:56] Speaker 1: Houses? Yeah, yeah.
[23:57] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Yep. Properties, yes. There's plenty up Palm
[24:00] Speaker 3: Beach Way, you know, north of Sydney. Yep. and southern
[24:04] Speaker 3: highlands as well and also obviously yeah point piper as
[24:07] Speaker 3: well and others around it too so look what quickly
[24:10] Speaker 3: emerged that i mean him and annie split up a
[24:13] Speaker 3: few years ago and what they were doing was buying
[24:16] Speaker 3: effectively buying mansions side by side right so you know
[24:20] Speaker 3: kids could go between the two of them there's there's
[24:21] Speaker 3: several up it's.
[24:22] Speaker 1: Not similar the way he wanted to live with scott.
[24:24] Speaker 3: Exactly like palm beach way yeah you know have your
[24:27] Speaker 3: summer up there yeah um Southern Highlands as well. And
[24:29] Speaker 3: then you've got city bolt holes as well. So yeah, 35,
[24:31] Speaker 3: you know, hundreds of millions of dollars worth.
[24:33] Speaker 1: Hey, how do they get them? The company's listed on
[24:35] Speaker 1: the NASDAQ.
[24:36] Speaker 3: Yes.
[24:36] Speaker 1: But how do they get their money out? I mean,
[24:38] Speaker 1: do they sell stock? Yeah.
[24:39] Speaker 3: So what happens, there's this, I won't bore you with
[24:43] Speaker 3: the details of what it's actually called, but there's this
[24:46] Speaker 3: stock selling plan. So they owned 80 odd percent of
[24:49] Speaker 3: the company when it floats, right? So it's 2015. It's
[24:52] Speaker 3: this amazing float. All of a sudden they're, you know, billionaires, paper,
[24:56] Speaker 3: they're in their mid 30s. And they sell off small
[24:59] Speaker 3: slices every day to sort of give liquidity in the
[25:02] Speaker 3: market and also like, you know, their stock options, right?
[25:06] Speaker 3: They end up selling about $ 5 billion worth of stock
[25:09] Speaker 3: over time. Wow. So little, you know, it could be
[25:12] Speaker 3: a million dollars. It turns out to be a million
[25:14] Speaker 3: dollars every day some years. So they end up with
[25:16] Speaker 3: about $ 5 billion in cash, you know, take off tax
[25:19] Speaker 3: or whatever tax they pay on that. They've still got
[25:21] Speaker 3: billions of dollars and that's where they get property. They
[25:24] Speaker 3: buy into the sports teams. Mike Cannon-Brooks eventually buys a
[25:27] Speaker 3: private jet a couple of years ago, which was very
[25:29] Speaker 3: controversial too.
[25:30] Speaker 1: I want to talk about that.
[25:32] Speaker 3: And there's all sorts of other things too. Scott ends
[25:34] Speaker 3: up being one of the biggest airport investors here in Australia, individual.
[25:38] Speaker 3: So he owns a slice of a bunch of Queensland
[25:40] Speaker 3: airports and a whole bunch of other infrastructure things as well.
[25:43] Speaker 3: So they do a lot. They get a lot of
[25:45] Speaker 3: money in, Mark. No one else has got this amount
[25:48] Speaker 3: of money in cash over that time in Australian history.
[25:52] Speaker 1: Like real money.
[25:52] Speaker 3: Real money. Yep. And so that gives them this buying
[25:56] Speaker 3: power to do all sorts of things.
[25:58] Speaker 1: So one of the things I noticed about Mike is
[26:03] Speaker 1: he seems to be very close to Albanese. And it
[26:06] Speaker 1: might have been the South Sydney connection because Albo was
[26:08] Speaker 1: a director of South and that's his team. Has your
[26:11] Speaker 1: investigations sort of dug up the fact that he's more left-leaning,
[26:18] Speaker 1: more Labour Party-leaning?
[26:20] Speaker 3: Probably more teal leaning, isn't it now? Yeah. Yeah.
[26:23] Speaker 2: I think so.
[26:24] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[26:24] Speaker 2: Um, look, um, you know, certainly with a lot of
[26:28] Speaker 2: his renewable investments is, you know, it's climate change, uh, advocacy. Um,
[26:34] Speaker 2: you know, some of that would, would chime in with,
[26:37] Speaker 2: with labor for sure. But, um, yeah, both, both Scott and, um,
[26:41] Speaker 2: and Mike have, um, donated to the teals, uh, um, and, um,
[26:48] Speaker 2: you know, quite substantial amounts as well. Um, so they've been, um,
[26:53] Speaker 2: you know, I guess, I guess it's in the areas
[26:54] Speaker 2: where they live, right. Um, and I've sort of been
[26:57] Speaker 2: quite passionate about that. Um, and, and, you know, they've
[27:02] Speaker 2: also got their philanthropy. Um, both of them have sort
[27:05] Speaker 2: of slightly different ways of coming at that. Um, and
[27:09] Speaker 2: it's probably fair to say, um, still the bulk of
[27:12] Speaker 2: that is yet to come. So they've put some quite
[27:16] Speaker 2: big numbers on the table for, you know, how they
[27:21] Speaker 2: want to ultimately, you know, give some of that money away.
[27:24] Speaker 2: But it's, you know, perhaps in Mike's case, it's become
[27:28] Speaker 2: a little bit complicated, you know, through the divorce proceedings,
[27:31] Speaker 2: you know, which are still underway now. You know, Scott
[27:35] Speaker 2: and his wife, Kim, are proceeding down a different route
[27:38] Speaker 2: as well.
[27:39] Speaker 1: Is the book... is it more, is it sort of
[27:42] Speaker 1: like a yarn or is it a bit more like
[27:43] Speaker 1: Joe Aston with the Qantas thing and with Joyce?
[27:48] Speaker 3: No, it's a yarn because like they've done so many
[27:52] Speaker 3: colourful things and there's so many colourful things that have
[27:55] Speaker 3: happened to them.
[27:55] Speaker 1: Because they're interesting characters.
[27:56] Speaker 3: They're interesting characters and there's been, there's that narrative of
[27:59] Speaker 3: the bust up as well and also what's happened internally
[28:02] Speaker 3: like The cultural stuff in there as well that's swirling
[28:05] Speaker 3: around Atlassian, it used to be the best place to work.
[28:08] Speaker 3: And now there's just so many dramas internally as well.
[28:11] Speaker 3: It's a story of people that have been really, really
[28:16] Speaker 3: successful and have become very, very wealthy because of that.
[28:20] Speaker 3: But there's also, then there's the pitfalls of what happens
[28:23] Speaker 3: when you make a lot of money and you fall
[28:25] Speaker 3: out and you have marriage issues and you become a
[28:28] Speaker 3: company and people that you weren't when you started.
[28:31] Speaker 1: Maybe not the same person.
[28:32] Speaker 3: It's a rollicking tale of, yeah, what happens. It's a
[28:34] Speaker 3: lifestyle of the rich and the famous, and it's a
[28:37] Speaker 3: story of success, but it's a story of what happens
[28:40] Speaker 3: to you when you become successful. It's not always fun
[28:43] Speaker 3: and games, I think, is probably the take out.
[28:44] Speaker 1: Sort of be careful what you wish for type of thing. Yes.
[28:46] Speaker 1: Because a lot of people would be, oh, wow, wouldn't
[28:48] Speaker 1: it be great to be these guys, and et cetera,
[28:51] Speaker 1: et cetera. I mean, it's still probably plenty of people
[28:54] Speaker 1: still say it would be great to be these guys,
[28:55] Speaker 1: notwithstanding all the sort of trials and tribulations they've been
[28:58] Speaker 1: through more recently. But what do you see as Australians
[29:04] Speaker 1: yourselves and as Australian authors? And you're involved in writing
[29:10] Speaker 1: for The Australian in terms of a business, sort of
[29:12] Speaker 1: total broader sense business in Australia. What are the lessons
[29:18] Speaker 1: we learned from this?
[29:19] Speaker 2: There's a few key ones. I mean, I'd probably just
[29:22] Speaker 2: start with– Some of the amazing things they've delivered, the
[29:29] Speaker 2: startup tech culture, which didn't really exist before Atlassian came along.
[29:36] Speaker 2: You know, these guys have sort of paved the way.
[29:40] Speaker 2: You know, I think we're talking about Canva just before
[29:43] Speaker 2: we started this.
[29:45] Speaker 1: But is that not worth the sort of money these
[29:47] Speaker 1: guys are worth?
[29:48] Speaker 3: Oh, no.
[29:48] Speaker 1: Canva's worth $ 45 billion or I think recently had a
[29:52] Speaker 1: different sort of valuation. Yeah, it's pretty close to what-
[29:53] Speaker 1: But these guys- No, but he got $ 100 billion.
[29:55] Speaker 3: Oh, they got up to, yeah, $ 100 odd million. Yeah,
[29:57] Speaker 3: a billion, sorry.
[29:58] Speaker 2: It's come off.
[29:59] Speaker 3: Oh, it's come off. Yeah, it's come off. That's right.
[30:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
[30:01] Speaker 2: And, you know, partly with AI, which we might get to.
[30:04] Speaker 2: But so, look, they've created this quite fantastic sort of
[30:09] Speaker 2: startup culture in Australia and they've been enormously successful. influential
[30:14] Speaker 2: in there. So I think that's a real credit to them.
[30:17] Speaker 2: It's a great Australian story. It's a great Australian story, yeah.
[30:21] Speaker 2: But probably- The.
[30:22] Speaker 1: Human story might be slightly different though, is that right?
[30:24] Speaker 1: Because human stories evolve.
[30:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
[30:27] Speaker 3: Look, I.
[30:31] Speaker 2: Think back to when you're in your early 20s and
[30:33] Speaker 2: fast forward 25 years to your late 40s, you're quite
[30:36] Speaker 2: different people. You know, they started off this company and
[30:44] Speaker 2: they wanted to do things differently. You know, they didn't, infamously,
[30:47] Speaker 2: they didn't want to go and work at a big
[30:49] Speaker 2: four accounting firm. They wanted to create their own culture.
[30:52] Speaker 2: And they did. And hundreds, even thousands of Atlassian people
[30:57] Speaker 2: were really passionate about working there. But As it got bigger,
[31:01] Speaker 2: that started to fray, and I think they started to
[31:05] Speaker 2: go into different directions. And there's no doubt that the
[31:09] Speaker 2: money that it was spinning off played into that. Scott
[31:14] Speaker 2: has talked about– I mean, these guys do a lot
[31:16] Speaker 2: of podcasts. They're 10 guys.
[31:19] Speaker 1: And by the way, this is unauthorized. This is an
[31:21] Speaker 1: unauthorized book. They didn't sort of give you interviews and say,
[31:25] Speaker 1: go for it, boys. Everything is great. No.
[31:27] Speaker 3: Definitely not. They're not happy about it.
[31:29] Speaker 1: They're not happy, no.
[31:30] Speaker 2: I was just going to say, look, Scott's talked about
[31:34] Speaker 2: with his own kids, people come into their lives and
[31:39] Speaker 2: they've had to sort of think about, are they coming
[31:42] Speaker 2: in for the right reasons? Are they our friends or
[31:45] Speaker 2: are they attracted by something else? Money and power. And
[31:48] Speaker 2: I think one of the things we probably love about
[31:51] Speaker 2: Australia is it's– People can walk down the street and-
[31:56] Speaker 2: Not be recognized. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But certainly, there has
[32:01] Speaker 2: been a bit of a pitfall there as well.
[32:04] Speaker 1: It's a great Australian story in terms of a startup
[32:09] Speaker 1: business taking on the world and doing it successfully. But
[32:14] Speaker 1: it's also, there's a human story in there of how
[32:18] Speaker 1: we change. Is that a part of– is that a
[32:21] Speaker 1: sort of a theme that comes out of this book,
[32:23] Speaker 1: our side of the yarn?
[32:24] Speaker 3: Definitely, yeah. I mean, the thing with that is that
[32:28] Speaker 3: the way that these guys always wanted to be portrayed,
[32:30] Speaker 3: it was those two things mixed together, right? That's always dangerous.
[32:33] Speaker 3: The business and the human part, right? So you see like,
[32:36] Speaker 3: you know, there's billionaires in America that will, you know,
[32:38] Speaker 3: quietly go about their business and, you know, not really
[32:41] Speaker 3: put their heads up and they just, you know, they
[32:43] Speaker 3: play golf or they, you know, have yachts or they
[32:47] Speaker 3: have planes.
[32:48] Speaker 1: Or Berkshire Hathaway for a sign.
[32:49] Speaker 3: Exactly, right? They just do their thing.
[32:50] Speaker 1: They still live in the same house. And Charlie and
[32:54] Speaker 1: him lived in the same house as they were married
[32:57] Speaker 1: in like 60 years ago. Correct.
[32:59] Speaker 3: And whereas someone like Mike in particular wanted to change
[33:02] Speaker 3: the world, right? So you put yourself out there and
[33:05] Speaker 3: you say, we talked about before, you're being an activist
[33:09] Speaker 3: in something outside your business, right? So you become something
[33:13] Speaker 3: that you weren't when you started that business publicly. And
[33:16] Speaker 3: then you, you know, you probably, you know, you pop
[33:19] Speaker 3: your head above the parapet, right? And then you clearly
[33:23] Speaker 3: get open to charges of hypocrisy if you're not necessarily
[33:28] Speaker 3: doing what you're saying. So this happens along the way
[33:31] Speaker 3: as well. Now, so I agree, there's definitely a business
[33:33] Speaker 3: part to it and a human part to it. But
[33:35] Speaker 3: a key part of their narrative and their story that
[33:38] Speaker 3: they always promoted themselves was how those two mixed together
[33:42] Speaker 3: and mixed together successfully. So we came along and found
[33:45] Speaker 3: out that that wasn't always the case. Now, there's no
[33:47] Speaker 3: doubt that- At a personal level. Correct, on a personal level.
[33:50] Speaker 3: On a business level, absolutely still a success. AI is
[33:53] Speaker 3: coming along and there's a question mark. No, it doesn't.
[33:57] Speaker 1: The question will be, can they overcome that?
[33:59] Speaker 3: Correct, yeah. And that's another issue. So there's definitely parts
[34:02] Speaker 3: of that where the human part is different, but they
[34:04] Speaker 3: always talked about it together.
[34:05] Speaker 1: Because I have seen the share price have bounced.
[34:07] Speaker 3: It has, definitely.
[34:08] Speaker 1: Bounce up. And I do note that they copped a
[34:11] Speaker 1: bit of a punch in the mouth- maybe beginning this
[34:15] Speaker 1: year when they sacked a whole lot of people because, um,
[34:18] Speaker 1: they didn't need them anymore, but presumably using AI to
[34:20] Speaker 1: cover those jobs. Um, but by the way, if I'm
[34:23] Speaker 1: a shareholder on the NASDAQ of that company, I would
[34:26] Speaker 1: be glad that they're doing that because I don't want to,
[34:30] Speaker 1: you know, have the overheads too high if they don't
[34:32] Speaker 1: need to be. So that's the sort of job, that's
[34:33] Speaker 1: your responsibility to your shareholders.
[34:35] Speaker 3: Absolutely.
[34:36] Speaker 1: Which might happen to be your 50% of it, but
[34:37] Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. Um, so I sort of get that part. Um,
[34:41] Speaker 1: But in terms of the human story of it, and
[34:45] Speaker 1: it's unfortunate Mike and his wife are sort of part
[34:47] Speaker 1: of the company now, but it doesn't matter at the
[34:51] Speaker 1: end of the day how much money you got. You're
[34:53] Speaker 1: still subject to all the vagaries of normal life.
[34:57] Speaker 3: Definitely.
[34:58] Speaker 1: And that's what's coming out in the book.
[35:00] Speaker 3: Well, the rich list is not necessarily the happy list.
[35:02] Speaker 1: No, no. That's what I think that the rich list,
[35:06] Speaker 1: you know– great respect to you and your colleagues.
[35:08] Speaker 3: That's okay.
[35:09] Speaker 1: It's a tough one to be, and you know, I
[35:12] Speaker 1: know other people who you've put on the rich list
[35:15] Speaker 1: this year, last year, who sort of run a bit
[35:19] Speaker 1: of trouble.
[35:21] Speaker 3: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[35:22] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[35:22] Speaker 3: It's, it's not, yeah.
[35:24] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[35:24] Speaker 3: Making money is not necessarily the key to happiness. You've
[35:27] Speaker 3: got to find a balance.
[35:28] Speaker 1: And that's a good point. I'm glad you raised that
[35:30] Speaker 1: because like, does money equate to happiness? Does fame equate
[35:35] Speaker 1: to happiness? Does, Does heavy-duty activism or something you really
[35:43] Speaker 1: believe in, does that equate to happiness?
[35:46] Speaker 3: If they had their time again, would they do the
[35:48] Speaker 3: same thing? It's a good question. I'm not sure.
[35:49] Speaker 1: Together?
[35:50] Speaker 3: Together, yes. But I'm thinking the activist part. I'm not
[35:53] Speaker 3: so sure.
[35:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. But no doubt, in Mike's case, he's
[35:58] Speaker 1: passionate about it. Yes. He's extraordinarily passionate about saving the planet.
[36:04] Speaker 1: or doing our part in saving the planet, Australia's part.
[36:08] Speaker 1: And that enthusiasm, you wonder, the question becomes, should I
[36:15] Speaker 1: have been so public perhaps? Like, you know, I've done
[36:18] Speaker 1: lots of things in my life and plenty of times
[36:20] Speaker 1: I've sort of regretted it. And, you know, fortunately I've
[36:24] Speaker 1: been able to sort of move on and that stuff
[36:28] Speaker 1: gets stamped in the past and the stuff I'm doing
[36:31] Speaker 1: at the moment sort of probably becomes more of a,
[36:33] Speaker 1: more important. I'm terrified of you two guys walking in
[36:36] Speaker 1: and saying, why don't we go check Boris? But I
[36:40] Speaker 1: don't have enough money to do that. You've got to
[36:41] Speaker 1: be in, but some of the things, you've upped the game.
[36:43] Speaker 1: You're not in the hundreds of millions anymore. You're in
[36:45] Speaker 1: the billions.
[36:46] Speaker 3: You're in the billions.
[36:47] Speaker 1: If you're not in the billions, it's not worth writing about.
[36:48] Speaker 3: And then the tens of billions.
[36:49] Speaker 1: Yeah, and more. So the tech bros, and you've got
[36:54] Speaker 1: them with one face, I presume that's half face each. Yes, yes.
[36:58] Speaker 3: Now, our great friend, Nick Walker, who's a photographer, Um,
[37:01] Speaker 3: he actually, he, that's his, that's his creation, that, that face,
[37:04] Speaker 3: which we did it, he did for a magazine profile
[37:06] Speaker 3: quite a while ago, but he was struck by how
[37:09] Speaker 3: similar their faces are. Yes. The shape of their faces.
[37:13] Speaker 3: That's why he put that together. We thought it'd make
[37:15] Speaker 3: a great book cover. Tech bros. Yeah. I mean, look,
[37:17] Speaker 3: you know, it is a, it's, I mean, they were
[37:19] Speaker 3: meant to be bros, right? They're in tech. They were
[37:20] Speaker 3: meant to be together. They, that was, it's, it's a
[37:23] Speaker 3: play on that, that, that, that wording for sure. But
[37:26] Speaker 3: I think it also tells that story of what they
[37:28] Speaker 3: were at one stage too.
[37:29] Speaker 1: Bros in, not in so much, but actually probably worldwide brothers.
[37:33] Speaker 2: Oh, the best men at each other's weddings.
[37:35] Speaker 1: Oh, were they?
[37:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
[37:37] Speaker 2: So, you know, started the business 2002, was it, John?
[37:42] Speaker 2: Ten years later or thereabouts, best men at each other's wedding.
[37:46] Speaker 2: And then I think as we document in the book,
[37:48] Speaker 2: I think it was 2019, they have this year of
[37:51] Speaker 2: not talking as it was described to us.
[37:54] Speaker 3: Oh, really?
[37:55] Speaker 1: Where, you know, this is- For a whole year or
[37:57] Speaker 1: for a period of time.
[37:58] Speaker 3: Pretty much, yeah.
[38:00] Speaker 2: This is after Elaine and Fairwater, or sorry, around that time.
[38:05] Speaker 1: Where are they now? Because I hear, but I've heard,
[38:09] Speaker 1: I've seen stuff where they're both putting it out together.
[38:11] Speaker 1: Do you think they're made up?
[38:15] Speaker 3: I think they're, well, I mean, they have to have
[38:18] Speaker 3: board meetings together. They have to do things like that together.
[38:21] Speaker 3: Scott's still on the board. He's still a major shareholder. Yeah.
[38:24] Speaker 3: They're not putting things out publicly or not being seen
[38:27] Speaker 3: in public together for quite a while. Still. Still. Look,
[38:30] Speaker 3: I think it's sort of like they'll catch up and
[38:33] Speaker 3: talk business and stuff like that. Occasionally, Mike pops his
[38:37] Speaker 3: head up and says, yeah, look, we have a beer.
[38:40] Speaker 3: But the people that we know that know them really,
[38:43] Speaker 3: really well say that that's not quite the case. Now,
[38:45] Speaker 3: they're probably civil. They have to be. Time heals a
[38:49] Speaker 3: lot of wounds. But there's certainly times when they were
[38:51] Speaker 3: right together, and I think that pressure you know, created
[38:55] Speaker 3: an issue.
[38:56] Speaker 1: What are some of the things you discovered in your research?
[38:58] Speaker 1: What other things did you discover in your research that
[39:01] Speaker 1: might be covered off in various chapters?
[39:03] Speaker 3: Well, I've got, there's an interesting one for you from
[39:06] Speaker 3: a Rugby League point of view. We found a couple
[39:08] Speaker 3: of old blogs from Mike that we talked about how
[39:11] Speaker 3: much he loved the Roosters.
[39:13] Speaker 1: Yeah, originally.
[39:14] Speaker 3: Yes, originally. Oh, wow. Well, they're point-point risen roosters. Well,
[39:18] Speaker 3: I know. Now he owns a chunk of the Rabbitohs.
[39:20] Speaker 3: That's a bit controversial between those two clubs.
[39:22] Speaker 1: But are you saying that, John, are you saying that
[39:25] Speaker 1: at some stage or other he liked the roosters?
[39:28] Speaker 3: He was blogging about the mighty roosters. because back in
[39:30] Speaker 3: the day, like 20-odd, 20, 23, 24 years ago, he
[39:33] Speaker 3: had his own blog. That's what people did, right? He
[39:35] Speaker 3: put all his whole life. He talked about, you know,
[39:38] Speaker 3: his basketball final was on. He talked about girls. He
[39:40] Speaker 3: talked about this, that, and the other. And then he
[39:42] Speaker 3: talked about The Mighty Roosters. Oh, wow. And how they're
[39:44] Speaker 3: going to beat the, you know, the Mighty Roosters are
[39:46] Speaker 3: going to beat the New Zealand. Remember they played the Warriors.
[39:47] Speaker 3: It was about 0-2. It was 2-0. We won the
[39:50] Speaker 3: grand final. That's right. Yeah.
[39:53] Speaker 1: Villa Santi.
[39:53] Speaker 2: Yes.
[39:54] Speaker 1: Villa the Gorilla.
[39:55] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
[39:56] Speaker 1: Open up Barry Fittler's head.
[39:57] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, that's right.
[39:58] Speaker 1: And Adrian Morley went and squared up very quickly and
[40:01] Speaker 1: we won the grand final.
[40:02] Speaker 3: Yeah, well, there you go. Well, you were cheering for
[40:04] Speaker 3: them that day and we suspect Mike was cheering for
[40:06] Speaker 3: them as well. Wow. Then you come around to now
[40:08] Speaker 3: and now he's a part owner of the, you know,
[40:10] Speaker 3: the rivals down the road.
[40:11] Speaker 1: Well, the Book of Feuds.
[40:13] Speaker 3: Exactly right.
[40:13] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[40:13] Speaker 3: So that part's probably not going to ever be in
[40:15] Speaker 3: the Book of Feuds, I suspect.
[40:16] Speaker 1: But that's in here?
[40:17] Speaker 3: That's in there.
[40:18] Speaker 1: Oh, that's worth reading from that point of view. Maybe
[40:20] Speaker 1: I should reach out to him and say, mate, like
[40:22] Speaker 1: anytime you want to come over and have a beer
[40:24] Speaker 1: with me. Where did they grow up? Oh, yeah.
[40:28] Speaker 2: Look, that's a really interesting part of the story as well.
[40:32] Speaker 2: Complete chalk and cheese.
[40:34] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[40:35] Speaker 2: So, Scott, you know, grew up in Sydney's western suburbs.
[40:40] Speaker 3: Castle Hill.
[40:41] Speaker 2: Castle Hill. His, you know, his mum worked a couple
[40:45] Speaker 2: of jobs. Was it Target?
[40:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, Macca's as well.
[40:49] Speaker 1: Working class.
[40:50] Speaker 3: Yeah, just normal working class people. Yeah, working class.
[40:52] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[40:53] Speaker 2: You know, I think Scott describes they went to the
[40:56] Speaker 2: same spot every year for their annual family holiday. Again,
[40:59] Speaker 2: pretty typical for how a lot of Australians grew up.
[41:03] Speaker 1: Probably went up the Central Coast or something.
[41:05] Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
[41:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, Mike, from, you know, incredibly different,
[41:11] Speaker 2: his father, so Michael Cannonbrook's senior, was a successful banker
[41:17] Speaker 2: and banker. He sort of made his name in Australia.
[41:22] Speaker 2: He sort of got one of the original banking licenses
[41:25] Speaker 2: from Paul Keating for Citibank. So he was in charge
[41:29] Speaker 2: of Citibank when they came to Australia. And they led
[41:33] Speaker 2: quite a globetrotting lifestyle. You know, Mike was actually over
[41:39] Speaker 2: in boarding school in England. And there's quite a– A
[41:46] Speaker 2: nice little twist in the book in that he used
[41:50] Speaker 2: sort of an early frequent flyer miles flying from England
[41:55] Speaker 2: to Australia and back to actually get his first PC computer.
[42:00] Speaker 2: So that's sort of, you know, when he was, you know,
[42:02] Speaker 2: still a kid essentially. Were they child prodigies? Oh, they
[42:08] Speaker 2: were smart for sure. Yeah, yeah. Look, Mike was, you know,
[42:13] Speaker 2: I don't think he sort of topped every class or
[42:16] Speaker 2: anything like that, but certainly when it came to coding
[42:20] Speaker 2: and some of that tech stuff, he was very good
[42:24] Speaker 2: at it. And Scott out at James Roos. Yeah, selective
[42:30] Speaker 2: high school.
[42:30] Speaker 1: He was, yeah, he was a real scholar there.
[42:35] Speaker 2: Um, and, uh, and we, you know, scouts as well, uh,
[42:40] Speaker 2: I think, uh, was, was part of his, you know, big,
[42:43] Speaker 2: big passion.
[42:43] Speaker 1: Sounds like a full on old time school, old school Aussie.
[42:47] Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
[42:48] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. James Roussai, lived out in Castle Hill, went
[42:51] Speaker 1: in the scouts.
[42:52] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[42:52] Speaker 1: His mum worked a couple of jobs.
[42:54] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[42:55] Speaker 1: Put, make ends meet.
[42:56] Speaker 2: Yeah. And, you know, Scott has talked about when he
[42:59] Speaker 2: sort of first went to the eastern suburbs, you know,
[43:03] Speaker 2: he probably could never have imagined he'd buy a mansion
[43:06] Speaker 2: in Point Piper. And he felt quite out of place.
[43:09] Speaker 2: You know, if he'd go to someone's house or a
[43:12] Speaker 2: party or something like that, that wasn't a world that
[43:15] Speaker 2: Scott grew up in. And, you know, he... He can
[43:19] Speaker 2: be quite awkward still, you know, socially, you know, Mike's
[43:25] Speaker 2: sort of, you know, very out there and- Confident. Yeah, very,
[43:29] Speaker 2: very confident, you know, especially in the eastern suburbs. Scott's,
[43:33] Speaker 2: you know, a little bit different to that.
[43:35] Speaker 1: What else is in there that we would not know
[43:38] Speaker 1: about these two?
[43:39] Speaker 3: Well, I mean, the private jet stuff comes up a bit,
[43:42] Speaker 3: you know, with Mike being the climate warrior.
[43:44] Speaker 1: Do they both have one?
[43:44] Speaker 3: No, Mike does. So he bought a $ 75 million one,
[43:49] Speaker 3: merged at the start of last year that he had one,
[43:50] Speaker 3: even after all his, you know, talk about, you know,
[43:55] Speaker 3: carbon offsetting this, that and the other and how we
[43:57] Speaker 3: shouldn't be doing this. It turns out he didn't. He
[43:59] Speaker 3: bought a Bombardier as well.
[44:01] Speaker 1: He still has one?
[44:02] Speaker 3: He still has it. We charted, you know, they'd gone
[44:05] Speaker 3: around the world and gone to all these Grand Prixs
[44:07] Speaker 3: because Atlassian now sponsors the Williams Grand Prix team.
[44:10] Speaker 1: Right.
[44:10] Speaker 3: He's gone. Grand Prix? He's done this. Yeah, absolutely. So
[44:15] Speaker 3: they spent $ 50 million a year on sponsorship. Absolutely. So
[44:18] Speaker 3: there's the Grand Prix stuff as well.
[44:19] Speaker 1: Atlassian sponsors it.
[44:20] Speaker 3: Atlassian sponsors it, yep.
[44:22] Speaker 1: Wow.
[44:22] Speaker 3: So, yeah, they're a title sponsor for the Williams team now.
[44:25] Speaker 3: So they've got the, So the private jet sort of
[44:27] Speaker 3: thing comes out as well. So he's circumventing the world
[44:31] Speaker 3: in his private jet while talking about dirty coal, this, that,
[44:36] Speaker 3: and the other as well, carbon and so on. So
[44:38] Speaker 3: there's things like that that have emerged. There's the house stuff,
[44:42] Speaker 3: which we chart as well. Look, there's a lot of
[44:44] Speaker 3: these narratives that built up about them that you sort
[44:48] Speaker 3: of just end up poking a few holes in, I suppose. Overall,
[44:51] Speaker 3: the narrative is absolutely true. I mean, one of the
[44:53] Speaker 3: things right Atlassian, just before it floats, before, sorry, but
[44:56] Speaker 3: before it takes on its first outside funding from a
[44:59] Speaker 3: company called ASOL, it takes on about $ 60 million. They
[45:02] Speaker 3: didn't need the money, but they decided to raise it
[45:04] Speaker 3: because they want to eventually list, right? But Atlassian gets hacked.
[45:09] Speaker 3: It's an amazing story that Scott tells about the company
[45:12] Speaker 3: gets hacked. I was on my honeymoon in Botswana and
[45:16] Speaker 3: Mike had to call me and someone drives through the
[45:19] Speaker 3: desert and they find me and they take me on
[45:21] Speaker 3: this light plane and then I eventually get back to
[45:23] Speaker 3: Sydney and We're working all through the night to try
[45:27] Speaker 3: and close off the hacker, right? So it's a big
[45:30] Speaker 3: moment in Atlassian's formative years. But no one ever knew
[45:33] Speaker 3: this before. And we found out that actually it was
[45:35] Speaker 3: Scott's password that gets hacked. He had a really easy
[45:38] Speaker 3: to guess password, like the word password or something like that.
[45:41] Speaker 3: And so these are the things. They have these great stories,
[45:44] Speaker 3: but then they sort of leave out these little details
[45:46] Speaker 3: that makes them look bad. So things like that.
[45:48] Speaker 1: Well, you've got to manage your brand, though, I guess.
[45:51] Speaker 3: You do.
[45:52] Speaker 1: That makes sense.
[45:52] Speaker 3: You do.
[45:53] Speaker 1: I don't think there'd be too many successful people that
[45:55] Speaker 1: haven't stuffed it up.
[45:56] Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.
[45:57] Speaker 3: And it turns out it wasn't an issue either.
[45:58] Speaker 1: Chapter 12, though.
[45:59] Speaker 3: Come on.
[46:00] Speaker 1: This is... This looks like Joe Essendon. I remember Joe
[46:03] Speaker 1: called one of them is Double Bay Jesus and the
[46:05] Speaker 1: Pursuit of a Greener Future. What's that mean, Double Bay Jesus?
[46:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's Mike Hennon Brooks.
[46:12] Speaker 1: Why Double Bay Jesus?
[46:16] Speaker 3: Well, he had the long hair looking like Jesus and
[46:19] Speaker 3: walking around in sandals in Double Bay, which is from
[46:23] Speaker 3: Joe's original moniker that he termed him that, and then
[46:27] Speaker 3: he's walking around Double Bay.
[46:28] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[46:28] Speaker 3: You know, he's the evangelist about climate change and so on. So, yeah,
[46:32] Speaker 3: double-baked Jesus.
[46:33] Speaker 1: Evangelistic.
[46:34] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
[46:34] Speaker 1: Now I get it.
[46:35] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Plus the look and the sandals and so
[46:37] Speaker 3: on as well.
[46:37] Speaker 2: I mean, that's– I think he even– yeah, he's spotted
[46:40] Speaker 2: just in bare feet a few times as well even.
[46:43] Speaker 1: So what's chapter 11 of Grok and Skip? What's that about?
[46:48] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
[46:49] Speaker 2: So both Mike and Scott set up these family offices. Yeah,
[46:54] Speaker 2: so Mike's got Grok. Skip is– is Scott and his wife, Kim.
[47:01] Speaker 2: Kim's actually sort of been the brains behind a lot
[47:05] Speaker 2: of it. And that's quite an important part of the story.
[47:09] Speaker 2: We probably focus a little bit more on Grok and
[47:13] Speaker 2: the family office there because it actually becomes quite a
[47:19] Speaker 2: corrosive place to work. So Mike's own family office, which
[47:24] Speaker 2: is used to invest his billions of dollars, actually becomes
[47:31] Speaker 2: sort of connected to some of the bullying that's going
[47:34] Speaker 2: on at Atlassian. And, look, it probably goes a bit
[47:39] Speaker 2: to what we've touched on. You had this vision of
[47:43] Speaker 2: quite a utopian tech culture, which I think a lot
[47:47] Speaker 2: of tech companies really promote and have this narrative around.
[47:52] Speaker 2: And actually, you know, over the years, that sort of
[47:56] Speaker 2: dissolved a little bit. And, you know, what you found
[48:00] Speaker 2: is just some sort of base culture human greed and
[48:05] Speaker 2: bullying made that a bit destructive in the end. One
[48:14] Speaker 2: of the first things that happened after Scott left, after
[48:19] Speaker 2: Scott stepped down as co-CEO, is some of the so-called
[48:23] Speaker 2: assassins who this sort of tight group of women that
[48:29] Speaker 2: worked near Mike said, oh, you know, yay, we can
[48:32] Speaker 2: all fly business class. They were only on economy before that.
[48:37] Speaker 2: Once Scott was out the door, business class, and then,
[48:41] Speaker 2: you know, obviously Mike got the jet and the Formula
[48:44] Speaker 2: One sponsorship. And we've had multiple people tell us none
[48:48] Speaker 2: of that would have happened under Scott's watch. Um, in fact, I,
[48:52] Speaker 2: I don't think the private jet would have happened either. Um,
[48:54] Speaker 2: even though that's Mike's own money. Um, I think, you know,
[48:58] Speaker 2: all of a sudden the, uh, uh, you know, it
[49:01] Speaker 2: was unleashed that they could sort of do what they
[49:03] Speaker 2: like with the money.
[49:04] Speaker 1: Well, it's, it's, it's, I'm glad you guys come because
[49:07] Speaker 1: it's actually, it's, it's an interesting yarn. I, but I
[49:14] Speaker 1: really think there's a deeper underlying theme that's coming out
[49:18] Speaker 1: of this. is that we're all subject to human temptations.
[49:23] Speaker 1: We're all subject to human frailties and errors and et cetera.
[49:27] Speaker 1: And even the best of us, the best of friends,
[49:32] Speaker 1: things can come between us based on principles and external conditions.
[49:38] Speaker 1: external influences that we may or may not have. From
[49:42] Speaker 1: what you're telling me, it's real. You're not making judgments
[49:46] Speaker 1: on anybody. You're just saying these things happen. And as
[49:52] Speaker 1: an Aussie saying, we'd say shit happens. And it does.
[49:55] Speaker 1: But this is just turbocharged.
[50:00] Speaker 3: Yeah, because of the money and the personalities involved.
[50:01] Speaker 1: Because the size of everything's bigger.
[50:03] Speaker 3: Correct, yeah. The houses are bigger. The money that stakes bigger,
[50:06] Speaker 3: personalities bigger.
[50:07] Speaker 1: But it happens at lots of different levels. It could
[50:09] Speaker 1: happen at a $ 150, 000 house if you bought it next
[50:11] Speaker 1: door to your best mate or your brother or your sister,
[50:13] Speaker 1: for that matter. And none of us are perfect, I guess,
[50:16] Speaker 1: at the end of the day. And this sort of
[50:18] Speaker 1: is a great example of it. What appears to be
[50:22] Speaker 1: perfect largely is imperfect. I think the most important part
[50:27] Speaker 1: is it is a great company and there's two guys
[50:32] Speaker 1: who created something amazing. but to some extent, um, I
[50:38] Speaker 1: feel sorry for him that it's, hasn't turned out that
[50:40] Speaker 1: way over the 20 year period or the 10 year period,
[50:43] Speaker 1: wherever it is, the period that they've been confronted with
[50:46] Speaker 1: these challenges, some of which has sort of changed the
[50:49] Speaker 1: relationship or the nature of the relationship that they have.
[50:53] Speaker 1: So well done. Um, it's tech bros. Um, what started
[50:58] Speaker 1: off for me is a, was going to be a
[50:59] Speaker 1: yarn has actually made me think about stuff. Um, and, uh,
[51:04] Speaker 1: And basically no one's immune. Well done.
[51:08] Speaker 3: Thanks, Mark.
[51:09] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[51:09] Speaker 2: Thanks very much.
[51:10] Speaker 3: You're welcome.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.