# Zoe Lister-Jones

An episode of [Drama Queens](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1571792783), 29 Apr 2026, 49 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/e53aefd3-699f-4685-9a84-aed700f383fa/4808a454-5668-4176-995c-b43b0062f975/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=cf2e6477-1a1d-4442-8b33-ae320005bb63

What do you wear to the end of the world? Actress, writer and producer Zoe Lister-Jones joins Sophia to unpack all the important, poignant and hilarious questions of the day! Everything's on the table -- from queerness to GMOs to the right to be unapologetically horny. It’s funny, unfiltered, and as real as it gets, including the very personal act that Zoe considers to be her biggest work in progress. "The Miniature Wife" as well as Zoe's acclaimed series "Slip" are both now on Peacock. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
[0:15] Speaker 1: back to Work in Progress. My whip smarties today. Oh
[0:19] Speaker 1: my god, are we joined by a smarty Indeed, she
[0:24] Speaker 1: is a friend of the pod. She is a friend
[0:26] Speaker 1: of mine and truly an artist that I admire so much.
[0:31] Speaker 1: Zoe Lister Jones is back to talk with us about
[0:35] Speaker 1: life and it's lessons, and we laugh an awful lot
[0:40] Speaker 1: and we get to unpack some of the brilliant films
[0:43] Speaker 1: she's made, shows she's made, and her new one, The
[0:45] Speaker 1: Miniature Wife, which is streaming on Peacock now. Zoe is
[0:50] Speaker 1: one of my favorite artists because she has managed to
[0:52] Speaker 1: spend the past decade truly redefining what it means to
[0:57] Speaker 1: be a multi hyphenet in this industry. She writes, directs,
[1:02] Speaker 1: and stars in incredibly intimate and fearless stories that explore
[1:06] Speaker 1: the complexities of identity and personal ethics.
[1:10] Speaker 2: And she might be so.
[1:13] Speaker 1: Incredible at this because she was raised in a family
[1:16] Speaker 1: of artists, and it might just be because she's truly
[1:19] Speaker 1: one of the most brilliant women in my peer group.
[1:22] Speaker 1: She really inspires me to ask big questions about life,
[1:27] Speaker 1: how we navigate desire, how we navigate love, how we
[1:30] Speaker 1: navigate showing up for others without losing ourselves? How do
[1:35] Speaker 1: we figure out who we are in a world that
[1:37] Speaker 1: constantly asks us to perform and often rewards us for
[1:41] Speaker 1: doing that in ways that means we abandon.
[1:44] Speaker 2: Bits of ourselves.
[1:46] Speaker 1: I think what makes Zoe such a fascinating woman to
[1:49] Speaker 1: watch is that she really is a living, breathing character
[1:52] Speaker 1: study of her own authenticity and inspires the rest of
[1:57] Speaker 1: us to lean into that for ourselves too. Let's get
[2:02] Speaker 1: into all the things with our dear Zoe Lister Jones.
[2:18] Speaker 1: I'm so excited to get to talk to you about
[2:20] Speaker 1: all the things.
[2:21] Speaker 2: What is up?
[2:22] Speaker 1: I mean, I have all the questions I ask people
[2:25] Speaker 1: that you've been on the show before, So I guess
[2:28] Speaker 1: we have to figure out what bears repeating.
[2:31] Speaker 2: For new friends.
[2:33] Speaker 3: I know, I know we've.
[2:36] Speaker 1: Talked about this, but we'll dive in with a go
[2:40] Speaker 1: back to catch up. You grew up in Brooklyn. Your
[2:43] Speaker 1: parents were artists. You know, you grew up really surrounded
[2:48] Speaker 1: by so much creative energy. When you think about that
[2:53] Speaker 1: from where you are as an artist, director, producer, writer today,
[2:58] Speaker 1: if you look back at your childhood at eight or nine,
[3:02] Speaker 1: What are what are the immediate things that zing for
[3:05] Speaker 1: you as like, oh, I see, I see how.
[3:07] Speaker 2: The woman I am today was that little girl m.
[3:12] Speaker 3: I mean my mom was was like I mean she
[3:16] Speaker 3: continues to be, but she taught me so much about
[3:21] Speaker 3: the male gaze as it pertained to like media and
[3:24] Speaker 3: art and film, say more like it was sort of
[3:30] Speaker 3: imprinted into me at a very young age. Whether that
[3:34] Speaker 3: was conscious or not, but I think it was pretty
[3:35] Speaker 3: conscious on her part. And it was like I think
[3:40] Speaker 3: she just looked at everything through a like a lens,
[3:46] Speaker 3: a sort of feminist lens that was that then just
[3:49] Speaker 3: became you know, her eyes became my eyes like in
[3:52] Speaker 3: that way, and I think that influenced my work so much. Yeah,
[3:57] Speaker 3: and not only like my work, but as the process
[4:02] Speaker 3: in making my work, because she was in like an
[4:07] Speaker 3: all women film collective in the seventies no way called
[4:11] Speaker 3: Real Feelings but spelled r EEL, and I like had
[4:17] Speaker 3: kind of forgotten that she was a part of that.
[4:20] Speaker 3: There was a photo of like thirteen women on a
[4:24] Speaker 3: beach and they're all in wedding dresses, and that was
[4:26] Speaker 3: like there, I mean, ironically in wedding dresses in the
[4:31] Speaker 3: seventies and so like that photo was kind of part
[4:34] Speaker 3: of my memory bank of childhood, but it wasn't super frontal.
[4:38] Speaker 3: And then when I directed my first film, band Aid,
[4:43] Speaker 3: I decided to make it with a crew made up
[4:46] Speaker 3: entirely of women, and again, like my mom reminded me
[4:53] Speaker 3: of her feminist filmmaking collective, and I was like, right, like,
[4:57] Speaker 3: the influence is just now so kind of cellular. That's
[5:02] Speaker 3: it's unconscious how much I am you know, doing that.
[5:05] Speaker 3: She sort of laid the groundwork for totally.
[5:08] Speaker 2: It's interesting, you know, my mom was not an artist.
[5:11] Speaker 1: My mom, you know, had her various jobs and then
[5:16] Speaker 1: ran my dad's business, which is interesting because she was
[5:19] Speaker 1: sort of the business brain behind his artistry. Interesting, but
[5:22] Speaker 1: she was very resolute about the education I was to get,
[5:29] Speaker 1: the work I was to do. You know, my mom
[5:31] Speaker 1: was very much the one that was like, oh, you
[5:34] Speaker 1: don't rely on a man for money. You make your
[5:36] Speaker 1: own money, you have your own career, you do your
[5:38] Speaker 1: own thing. And then, having gone to an all girls' school,
[5:43] Speaker 1: I feel that cellular immersion you're talking about because it
[5:48] Speaker 1: has never occurred to me to not participate in a
[5:51] Speaker 1: conversation or raise my hand to offer an answer when
[5:56] Speaker 1: a question is asked, because I grew up exclusively in
[5:59] Speaker 1: rooms of women who we're contributing, and I have seen
[6:03] Speaker 1: in my career that my you know, creativity or verboseness
[6:10] Speaker 1: or thoughtfulness that I believe is additive to a conversation
[6:14] Speaker 1: can be very off putting to certain men.
[6:16] Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, this is so weird because I
[6:18] Speaker 2: didn't grow up with this, Yeah, what is this?
[6:23] Speaker 3: And to certain women, I mean, like I think, you know,
[6:25] Speaker 3: it's like unfortunately, there's a lot of internalized misogyny across
[6:30] Speaker 3: the board.
[6:31] Speaker 1: There really is so much, and it's really making a
[6:33] Speaker 1: comeback with friending, and I don't like it.
[6:37] Speaker 3: It's really wild. And I am you know, I always
[6:40] Speaker 3: just so admire the way that you use your voice
[6:43] Speaker 3: and and I think something that my mom always taught
[6:48] Speaker 3: me was that, like, the personal is political and vice versa,
[6:51] Speaker 3: and you embody that, you know, and I try to
[6:55] Speaker 3: embody that as best I can. And and so I
[6:58] Speaker 3: just do I love I love Yeah, I just I
[7:02] Speaker 3: love how unapologetic you are. And I'm so grateful to
[7:07] Speaker 3: your mom honestly.
[7:09] Speaker 2: Same and same. Yeah, we need to take our moms on.
[7:12] Speaker 3: A date.
[7:14] Speaker 2: Like fully, they would have so much fun. Also so weird.
[7:18] Speaker 1: But the other day I was just in LA for
[7:21] Speaker 1: a quick shoot for something and I was driving down
[7:27] Speaker 1: I was on Fountain, you know it dead ends into Losianaga,
[7:31] Speaker 1: but I was going east and as I'm driving down Fountain,
[7:39] Speaker 1: a pack of women in white dresses and veils, like
[7:43] Speaker 1: eleven of them I counted.
[7:44] Speaker 2: I was like, what's going on.
[7:45] Speaker 1: We're coming down Fountain and turning down whatever street is
[7:48] Speaker 1: right after sweets Are, and I was like, oh my,
[7:51] Speaker 1: And I was in the left lane, so I couldn't
[7:53] Speaker 1: make a right and all I wanted was to turn
[7:56] Speaker 1: around and pull over and be like, sorry, you're clearly
[7:58] Speaker 1: doing something, but what are you doing? I just need
[8:01] Speaker 1: to know what you're all doing, Like a like the
[8:04] Speaker 1: reporter in me from journalism school is just she's impossible
[8:08] Speaker 1: to smother. I try sometimes, but clearly you know from
[8:12] Speaker 1: my social media, I cannot.
[8:13] Speaker 2: And I was like, what are they doing?
[8:16] Speaker 1: And then you just described your mom's that's actually photographed,
[8:20] Speaker 1: and that's so weird to me.
[8:22] Speaker 3: That's really crazy.
[8:24] Speaker 1: Like some in some weird fold of the universe, Like
[8:29] Speaker 1: I just saw that pack of women walking through Los
[8:32] Speaker 1: Angeles together.
[8:33] Speaker 3: I'm obsessed with whatever, just whatever time space continuum collapsed
[8:38] Speaker 3: to make that happen.
[8:40] Speaker 2: I love it. I love it.
[8:42] Speaker 3: I love that. I mean, at this moment, I feel
[8:45] Speaker 3: like audacious acts of like joy and resistance, whatever that was,
[8:50] Speaker 3: I'm just going to project that onto that group of
[8:52] Speaker 3: women are like what we need. It's yes, it's what's
[8:56] Speaker 3: going to keep us going.
[8:58] Speaker 1: I totally agree. And it's like, I don't know, I'm
[9:01] Speaker 1: just kind of leaning into things. I'm letting myself lay
[9:06] Speaker 1: in bed when I'm so depressed by the state of
[9:09] Speaker 1: the world, and then I'm like, all right, bitch, get up,
[9:13] Speaker 1: do something, put on an outfit.
[9:15] Speaker 2: What do you wear for the end of the world.
[9:17] Speaker 2: I don't know. Also give yourself joy.
[9:21] Speaker 1: And then dive into the zoom, the organizing whatever it is.
[9:26] Speaker 1: But I'm I don't know, I'm sort of remembering that,
[9:31] Speaker 1: I'm reminding myself that if all we do is the
[9:35] Speaker 1: heavy side of the work and we don't do the
[9:37] Speaker 1: joyful side of the work, we miss it. And you
[9:40] Speaker 1: inspire me in that way so much. You always when
[9:43] Speaker 1: you share something, the reflections are so thoughtful. The way
[9:48] Speaker 1: you write about the state of the world, is so
[9:51] Speaker 1: generous and considered and razor I mean, with such a
[9:56] Speaker 1: razor sharp honesty. And then you're also like going to
[10:00] Speaker 1: a thing in the most avant garde outfit and I'm like, yeah.
[10:03] Speaker 2: We need that wear the dress.
[10:06] Speaker 1: What if the world ended tomorrow and you never wore
[10:08] Speaker 1: and it sat in your closet with a tag on
[10:10] Speaker 1: it and you remember me to play while I work?
[10:13] Speaker 3: Oh, you remember me?
[10:15] Speaker 2: You remind me?
[10:16] Speaker 3: I remember me that you remember remember me? I do
[10:20] Speaker 3: remember you well. I think we remember each other. And
[10:23] Speaker 3: that's the beauty of it because it is like and
[10:25] Speaker 3: thank you. That means so much to me. And I
[10:28] Speaker 3: think what we wear to the revolution is key.
[10:33] Speaker 1: I'm into it, Like I feel like there's an idea
[10:36] Speaker 1: here we should noodle on for a movie.
[10:38] Speaker 3: Yes.
[10:38] Speaker 1: Also because every project you do, I'm like, how am
[10:41] Speaker 1: I not doing this with you? Also, it's yours, It's
[10:45] Speaker 1: yours and it should be. You are so brilliant, And
[10:48] Speaker 1: I'm like, can I come play?
[10:49] Speaker 2: Can?
[10:50] Speaker 3: I mean?
[10:50] Speaker 2: I'm ready.
[10:51] Speaker 3: When we did Wayne's World, I was listening and we
[10:55] Speaker 3: did it all queer women and non binary and it
[11:00] Speaker 3: was a live thing, live reading of Wayne's World.
[11:02] Speaker 1: Yes, in a Theater in Los Angeles. We all sat,
[11:05] Speaker 1: you know, last supper style with our music stands, and
[11:08] Speaker 1: we performed the play to a packed house, just setting
[11:11] Speaker 1: the scene for the listeners at home.
[11:13] Speaker 3: And it was the most fun thing ever. That's the
[11:17] Speaker 3: only time that we've actually like worked together. But I
[11:20] Speaker 3: was so excited. Well I do.
[11:23] Speaker 2: We had the best time.
[11:25] Speaker 1: And there are moments, and bless the person that you
[11:27] Speaker 1: hired to shoot the photos of that night, because there's
[11:31] Speaker 1: moments obviously as you're performing, things happen live and we'd
[11:37] Speaker 1: rehearsed it, but it was a short turnaround, as those
[11:40] Speaker 1: things tend to be. And there were moments you and
[11:43] Speaker 1: I sat next to each other performing where I would
[11:46] Speaker 1: make you laugh and you'd look at me, or you'd
[11:50] Speaker 1: do something so funny and I'd double over because I
[11:53] Speaker 1: hadn't seen you do it up close yet and it
[11:55] Speaker 1: was happening in real time. And I have those photos
[11:58] Speaker 1: and I just care wish them me too, They're so great.
[12:03] Speaker 3: It was such a it was really, I mean, those
[12:05] Speaker 3: moments that are just like sort of pure play, yeah,
[12:08] Speaker 3: are so rare. Yeah, and I cherish them and I
[12:14] Speaker 3: try to create them, but they you know, Yeah, they're
[12:17] Speaker 3: hard to come by, unfortunately.
[12:19] Speaker 1: But that's what's so fascinating to me about you, you know,
[12:21] Speaker 1: I will say, and like, I think part of growing
[12:24] Speaker 1: up is admitting what you know and what you don't know.
[12:27] Speaker 1: I have a million ideas all the time, and I
[12:31] Speaker 1: struggle to know what the next step is sometimes to
[12:34] Speaker 1: execute on them. Clearly. I have also since learned that's
[12:38] Speaker 1: a very common thing for masking over achieving women with ADHD.
[12:42] Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, it's not personal moral failing. It doesn't
[12:45] Speaker 1: mean I'm a waste of a human life. Interesting, okay,
[12:48] Speaker 1: but you are such a generative creative, and I think
[12:52] Speaker 1: it's often really hard for people to be purely creative
[12:56] Speaker 1: and great at the execution. So how have you figured
[13:01] Speaker 1: that out for yourself? Is it something you learned by
[13:05] Speaker 1: watching your mom and then you figured out how to
[13:08] Speaker 1: do or has there been kind of a I don't
[13:12] Speaker 1: want to say it's a formula or a protocol necessarily,
[13:15] Speaker 1: but did you kind of figure out how to hack
[13:18] Speaker 1: a version of a creative formula and then continue to
[13:21] Speaker 1: follow it.
[13:22] Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, thank you. That's also really
[13:25] Speaker 3: I love coming on this podcast moment to moment, and
[13:29] Speaker 3: it feels so good, So I love you, and and
[13:34] Speaker 3: I mean, I think it was interesting, like the household
[13:39] Speaker 3: I grew up in. Both my mom and my dad
[13:42] Speaker 3: are artists, and my dad also influenced me not not
[13:45] Speaker 3: to put him in the shadows, but you know, we
[13:47] Speaker 3: like to shout out dads are But they were both artists.
[13:55] Speaker 3: My mom was a video orders my dad was a
[13:58] Speaker 3: conceptual photographer, and both of these mediums are not easily commodifiable.
[14:05] Speaker 3: So they were making art. But I saw how difficult
[14:11] Speaker 3: it was to also like make a living, and so
[14:15] Speaker 3: I think, like in terms of being generative, that actually
[14:21] Speaker 3: was something that I was like, I must be generative
[14:24] Speaker 3: to live otherwise, because I had witnessed so firsthand that
[14:28] Speaker 3: like if art making, at least for my parents, like
[14:31] Speaker 3: their art making then had to take a backsteat to
[14:34] Speaker 3: the jobs they had to get to make money. And
[14:38] Speaker 3: not only does that take like the time and energy
[14:40] Speaker 3: away from your art, but I think it also like
[14:42] Speaker 3: just creates a sort of heartache that I saw and
[14:50] Speaker 3: felt and wanted to avoid generally trying to avoid heartache,
[14:55] Speaker 3: and you know it's hard to avoid, but in the
[14:58] Speaker 3: areas that we can, so like I think I learned
[15:03] Speaker 3: early that that was something that I wanted to really
[15:06] Speaker 3: get good at. Was like completing a project, seeing it
[15:11] Speaker 3: to its fruition. And my ex husband and I made
[15:19] Speaker 3: like sort of like super micro budget indies in the beginning,
[15:24] Speaker 3: like in our twenties, and that was like a huge
[15:27] Speaker 3: learning experience about how to make things for little but
[15:34] Speaker 3: with you know, like a good enough production value and
[15:37] Speaker 3: to get the community involved, which was also just so
[15:41] Speaker 3: much fun to just like get the friends that I
[15:43] Speaker 3: loved who were working in various you know, departments or actors.
[15:48] Speaker 3: And then those those projects, you know, built momentum more
[15:52] Speaker 3: than I was given more opportunities to create things. But
[15:56] Speaker 3: it's an interesting thing, I will say, and I've been
[15:58] Speaker 3: thinking about this recently, like it's really good to be
[16:02] Speaker 3: like process and product oriented, but sometimes if you get
[16:05] Speaker 3: to product oriented, I think, especially as a woman like
[16:09] Speaker 3: I can I have found myself in certain situations like
[16:15] Speaker 3: abandoning my instincts because I'm just like, we got to
[16:20] Speaker 3: get this thing done, come hell or high water. And
[16:24] Speaker 3: when many cooks are in the kitchen, you know, when
[16:27] Speaker 3: you move out of the sort of micro budget world
[16:29] Speaker 3: and cooks are in the kitchen, that can sometimes be
[16:35] Speaker 3: not an asset, you know, like sometimes it is time
[16:39] Speaker 3: to be like, I'm not going to make this under
[16:42] Speaker 3: these conditions or with these limitations artistically that's not aligned
[16:47] Speaker 3: with me. So it's just like a learning curve, you know,
[16:50] Speaker 3: as you make more things to be like, this is
[16:52] Speaker 3: what is in alignment with me, and this is what
[16:54] Speaker 3: is not in alignment with me. But it's a weird
[16:57] Speaker 3: time in the industry, so you know, like, yeah, getting
[17:01] Speaker 3: done takes a little extra muscle now for.
[17:04] Speaker 1: Sure, totally And now for our sponsors, what keeps you
[17:15] Speaker 1: hopeful in the face of how weird things are because
[17:20] Speaker 1: you know, I can't help but think when you talk about,
[17:23] Speaker 1: for example, watching your parents do what they loved and
[17:26] Speaker 1: then having to do things they loved less because we
[17:30] Speaker 1: live in a world that requires us to do things
[17:32] Speaker 1: like pay our rent and our phone bills. You know,
[17:37] Speaker 1: I think about how much harder it is now that
[17:40] Speaker 1: private equities bought up all the houses and people can't
[17:44] Speaker 1: afford them anymore, that they've bought up all the film studios,
[17:47] Speaker 1: and now we're struggling to have an industry anymore. Because
[17:52] Speaker 1: someone's looking at a P and L and they think
[17:54] Speaker 1: that that's all that matters. Like, how do you when
[17:58] Speaker 1: you zoom out thirty thousand feet as the accomplished filmmaker
[18:03] Speaker 1: that you are, how do you look at the landscape
[18:07] Speaker 1: and stay hopeful? What do you what do you think
[18:10] Speaker 1: is the future of it?
[18:12] Speaker 3: Oh? Gosh, I don't know.
[18:14] Speaker 2: I'm just a casual question for you.
[18:16] Speaker 3: Houre of the industry and the world.
[18:20] Speaker 2: You're like, actually, I have a plan. I've got it right.
[18:25] Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll say, like, the spiritual work I'm doing right
[18:29] Speaker 3: now is to surrender to the now and try to
[18:32] Speaker 3: future trip and to actually accept the reality that I
[18:37] Speaker 3: have no control over love that holds great.
[18:41] Speaker 2: So the key to the future is to stop thinking
[18:43] Speaker 2: about it.
[18:45] Speaker 3: I mean, it's like I think it's exactly what probably
[18:48] Speaker 3: we both do, you know, It's like, yeah, staying as
[18:50] Speaker 3: like typically engaged as you can while still really like
[18:56] Speaker 3: taking care of yourself because and that and that bleeds
[19:01] Speaker 3: into the creative life too. Like I think as I've
[19:06] Speaker 3: gotten older, of course I'm only in my twenties, but
[19:10] Speaker 3: as I've gotten older, Like I like what you were
[19:14] Speaker 3: saying and prioritizing rest in a really different way, and
[19:18] Speaker 3: probably just because I'm tired, but I also think I
[19:22] Speaker 3: understand more the need to rest in order to engage. Yes,
[19:30] Speaker 3: And like, I think that is what gives me hope.
[19:33] Speaker 3: And I will say also like gen Z gives me hope.
[19:37] Speaker 3: Like I really, I like look to that generation. I
[19:43] Speaker 3: learn a lot from them, and I think, like, you know,
[19:49] Speaker 3: every generation, we can talk shit about every generation, you
[19:52] Speaker 3: know what I mean. But yea, but I think that
[19:57] Speaker 3: there's like a level of engagement that feels engagement and
[20:05] Speaker 3: sort of thoughtfulness in the people that I know who
[20:09] Speaker 3: are like doing the work that I don't know. It
[20:14] Speaker 3: just feels inspired and inspiring to me. What gives you hope?
[20:21] Speaker 2: You know, we do women do.
[20:28] Speaker 1: The leadership of folks that see more than the rest
[20:35] Speaker 1: of us, you know, people who have a non binary
[20:40] Speaker 1: existence in their bodies. I think the intense backlash against
[20:44] Speaker 1: women first that's coming from the right is because we've
[20:49] Speaker 1: had a generation of pseudo equality, and rather than motivating
[20:54] Speaker 1: the system of patriarchy to become better, it's motivating it
[20:58] Speaker 1: to try to hurt us because we've done more or
[21:00] Speaker 1: with less. And I think it's actually why trans and
[21:03] Speaker 1: non binary people are at the center of that fight
[21:07] Speaker 1: and being assaulted in the ways that they are because
[21:11] Speaker 1: the freedom it requires a human being to not only
[21:15] Speaker 1: see but embody in a cellular way, to exist past
[21:19] Speaker 1: a binary or a societal prescription for what they should do.
[21:24] Speaker 1: And they say, you can do whatever you'd like, but
[21:28] Speaker 1: I'm going to do everything I believe I can do.
[21:30] Speaker 1: I'm going to be everything I know myself to be.
[21:33] Speaker 1: It is such a radical upset to a system that
[21:39] Speaker 1: succeeds on the shrinking of people and feeding off of
[21:42] Speaker 1: them rather than the expansion of people and the allowing
[21:47] Speaker 1: them to flourish.
[21:49] Speaker 2: And I watch.
[21:54] Speaker 1: Our trans friends, our non binary friends stand so resolutely
[22:02] Speaker 1: in their identities because both they are doing the radical
[22:08] Speaker 1: act of acknowledging their own worth, and by acknowledging their worth,
[22:14] Speaker 1: their demanding that we acknowledge the worth of other people.
[22:18] Speaker 1: To do that in the year twenty twenty six, when
[22:22] Speaker 1: they are when the people with the least power are
[22:27] Speaker 1: being attacked by the people with the most wealth and
[22:30] Speaker 1: power in the world.
[22:32] Speaker 2: So people who are willing.
[22:34] Speaker 1: To stand against that kind of power and influence inspire me.
[22:38] Speaker 1: You know, yes, in the same way that I like
[22:42] Speaker 1: to be everyone's most affirming cheerleader on the internet, because
[22:45] Speaker 1: it's accessible. So I like to leave nice comments for
[22:47] Speaker 1: everyone I know and tell all my friends they're hot.
[22:51] Speaker 1: I like to look at what people do and be inspired.
[22:53] Speaker 1: Like I think about when I was going over filmography
[22:57] Speaker 1: stuff for today, I was like, oh my god, I
[23:00] Speaker 1: forgot about Consumed, Like you and Daryl made that movie
[23:04] Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, and I was thinking, oh my god,
[23:10] Speaker 1: you made a dramatic thriller about an issue we're talking
[23:16] Speaker 1: about now in these crazy ways about the complex world
[23:19] Speaker 1: of GMOs. You could have made a documentary, but you
[23:22] Speaker 1: made it a narrative story because you wanted it to
[23:25] Speaker 1: register in a different way. And over ten years ago
[23:29] Speaker 1: you were talking about the future of food and climate,
[23:32] Speaker 1: but nobody felt like you were smacking them in the
[23:34] Speaker 1: face about a climate movie, you know what I mean.
[23:36] Speaker 1: And like, that's fucking radical and not just rad like
[23:40] Speaker 1: California term. I mean radical in terms of subversive to
[23:45] Speaker 1: an industry, And like, I don't know, reflecting on that
[23:48] Speaker 1: ten years ago, how do you think about the approach
[23:52] Speaker 1: and the inspiration in the first place, Knowing where we
[23:54] Speaker 1: are now, you know, with this upside down kookiness about
[23:59] Speaker 1: like red dye but not chemicals being allowed they used
[24:04] Speaker 1: to be banned by the EPA.
[24:05] Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I know, it's I mean making that movie
[24:09] Speaker 3: was so challenging in so many ways. And yes, and
[24:15] Speaker 3: and like you know, Monsanto has now been like subsumed
[24:20] Speaker 3: by Bayer, So it's sort of an invisible, really nefarious
[24:24] Speaker 3: agent in destroying our climate and our food and our
[24:29] Speaker 3: soil and all these things. And those forces are much
[24:33] Speaker 3: more powerful than I think I understood than I think
[24:37] Speaker 3: Darryl or I understood at the time of making it.
[24:40] Speaker 3: You know, like ego to a film festival and the
[24:43] Speaker 3: sponsor is Coca Cola. You know, you don't think about
[24:48] Speaker 3: those things until you have a film that's sort of
[24:51] Speaker 3: poking the bear a bit. Yeah, So I think it
[24:55] Speaker 3: was challenging in some ways. It's also I think when
[24:58] Speaker 3: you it's interesting that it really dropped us into the
[25:03] Speaker 3: center of a wellness movement that at the time was
[25:12] Speaker 3: Maha didn't exist, right, but a lot of that community
[25:14] Speaker 3: has now horseshoed into MAHA. And so I feel really
[25:19] Speaker 3: turned upside down because, as you said, like the focus
[25:25] Speaker 3: on humanity and climate and environmentalism and equity and social
[25:31] Speaker 3: justice that felt woven into the fabric of that community
[25:37] Speaker 3: is now to me just upside down because the integrity
[25:43] Speaker 3: is and obviously that's not the community as a whole,
[25:48] Speaker 3: but just sure, I think what Maha has chosen to
[25:52] Speaker 3: take from that and then not chosen, as you said.
[25:56] Speaker 1: It's figuring out the grift, right like conspiracy theories were,
[26:00] Speaker 1: because there's a kernel of truth at the center, and
[26:02] Speaker 1: then they build a fantasy of fallacy around it. Fantasy
[26:06] Speaker 1: of fallacy. I just came up with that memoir, honestly,
[26:10] Speaker 1: not no. And what's fascinating to me, even when you
[26:15] Speaker 1: take something as horrific as as what we've seen in
[26:18] Speaker 1: you know, the half of the trove of the Epstein
[26:20] Speaker 1: files we have is you realize that those the craziness
[26:24] Speaker 1: of QAnon and four chan and you know what started
[26:27] Speaker 1: on backslash Pole was started by Jeffrey Epstein and Steve Bannon.
[26:32] Speaker 1: So like they told the kernel of truth about the
[26:35] Speaker 1: horrific thing they were doing, and then they dressed it
[26:37] Speaker 1: up in something crazy and then they projected it onto
[26:41] Speaker 1: the people trying to stop them from doing it.
[26:43] Speaker 3: Right, That broke my brain.
[26:46] Speaker 2: It breaks my brain.
[26:47] Speaker 1: But when you realize Maha is the same, you know,
[26:50] Speaker 1: when you realize that the same people who called Michelle
[26:52] Speaker 1: Obama a communist for trying to feed children more vegetables
[26:56] Speaker 1: in school lunches are now rally against science but supporting
[27:05] Speaker 1: people that are actively trying to poison them on the
[27:08] Speaker 1: behalf of their billionaire donors.
[27:10] Speaker 2: You go like, wait a second.
[27:12] Speaker 1: But I think part of the reason I got excited
[27:15] Speaker 1: to revisit consumed and this no shock in an ADHD
[27:20] Speaker 1: brain is a very long way to get us back
[27:22] Speaker 1: to what makes me hopeful is like when we think
[27:25] Speaker 1: about gen Z, whether they and this is not to
[27:30] Speaker 1: approve or whatever, This is just to say, like, the
[27:32] Speaker 1: through line that excites me, whether you have hyper conservative
[27:36] Speaker 1: gen Z voters or hyperliberal gen Z voters, the thing
[27:40] Speaker 1: they all care most about statistically is climate. I know
[27:45] Speaker 1: they actually agree on that because we should. And that
[27:49] Speaker 1: makes me feel excited. That makes me feel hopeful. That
[27:52] Speaker 1: makes me feel like we can unpack the grift that
[27:58] Speaker 1: has griff did logical movements because they were logical and working.
[28:04] Speaker 1: I think we can unpack it and hopefully reclaim the
[28:09] Speaker 1: thing we should all care about, which is conserving this
[28:11] Speaker 1: planet that we live on so that we might, I
[28:14] Speaker 1: don't know, keep living without being poisoned or getting cancer
[28:18] Speaker 1: or whatever, and so.
[28:20] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[28:20] Speaker 1: It makes me in the same ways that I am
[28:25] Speaker 1: overwhelmed by how crazy it is, I feel hopeful that
[28:29] Speaker 1: there are still things people agree on.
[28:31] Speaker 3: Yeah now, yeah, yeah totally. And I think I mean,
[28:39] Speaker 3: in some ways, my hope lies in the belief that
[28:43] Speaker 3: sometimes it has to get really bad for it to
[28:46] Speaker 3: get better. Yeah, that I think there's something afoot about
[28:54] Speaker 3: the current state of affairs in the world. While it's
[28:59] Speaker 3: like divisive and horrific, that a lot is being uncovered
[29:06] Speaker 3: and exposed, and it can be really like dizzying, you know,
[29:14] Speaker 3: even for people who have like ten toes down on
[29:17] Speaker 3: their values. It's so dizzying. But but I think that
[29:23] Speaker 3: kind of exposure, I hope that ultimately it will be
[29:27] Speaker 3: like a unifying force and that like humanity and a
[29:33] Speaker 3: love of just being human will prevail rather than the grift,
[29:40] Speaker 3: you know, because the grift it is for all of
[29:44] Speaker 3: the memes I read, you know that like show my Algorithm,
[29:47] Speaker 3: but like it is kind of textbook narcissistic abuse, right,
[29:51] Speaker 3: It's like, yes, you are the perpetrator and you put
[29:55] Speaker 3: your you sort of project your perpetration onto other people,
[30:00] Speaker 3: so that then they're like dizzied and don't know who's
[30:03] Speaker 3: accountable or how to hold anyone accountable. Yeah, and that's
[30:08] Speaker 3: exactly what has happened. But it feels now that at
[30:11] Speaker 3: leaves with like the Epstein files, some of that is
[30:14] Speaker 3: being revealed, like what you said, Yeah, and that's sort
[30:18] Speaker 3: of seeing like the interconnectedness of all of the oppressive
[30:23] Speaker 3: forces is like creating just a larger picture. I hope
[30:28] Speaker 3: for people.
[30:29] Speaker 1: It's also just crazy to me and listen, I know,
[30:32] Speaker 1: we're both women who've always been encouraged to stand in
[30:38] Speaker 1: our power, voice our opinion, be educated. Like you are
[30:42] Speaker 1: a person like me who wants to do homework every
[30:44] Speaker 1: day about the world, which I love. I get that
[30:48] Speaker 1: that's not everybody's bag, but I think when it is,
[30:50] Speaker 1: and you understand how to unpack men as a system,
[30:55] Speaker 1: you know, as patriarchy, how to unpack internalized missile, how
[31:00] Speaker 1: to figure out actually the incredible power of women to
[31:05] Speaker 1: tell stories about them. I mean, you know what you
[31:07] Speaker 1: did with slip, Like it's sort of surreal to move
[31:13] Speaker 1: through the world. I think as women who've sort of
[31:17] Speaker 1: seen behind the curtain. Also to get divorced, also to
[31:21] Speaker 1: come out, Like, I don't think there's an accident there
[31:24] Speaker 1: where you go like, oh, the dynamic I was told
[31:27] Speaker 1: was for me actually has never been.
[31:30] Speaker 3: Good for me.
[31:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's put me in the position of employee, not partner.
[31:38] Speaker 1: How how do you think that journey for you as
[31:43] Speaker 1: an individual has influenced your storytelling? Because even when I
[31:49] Speaker 1: think about what you did with Slip, and I'll let
[31:52] Speaker 1: you talk to the folks at home about the story,
[31:55] Speaker 1: but like, it isn't lost on me that we were
[32:00] Speaker 1: the first women in history to have written, directed, and
[32:02] Speaker 1: starred in every single episode of a season of television,
[32:05] Speaker 1: like the first in our age bracket, Like what? And
[32:10] Speaker 1: so I realize, as far as we've come, we still
[32:13] Speaker 1: were still making firsts in our generation. So I guess
[32:16] Speaker 1: I just wonder how from the personal to professional you
[32:20] Speaker 1: square the journey and then figure out how to storytell
[32:22] Speaker 1: out of it.
[32:24] Speaker 3: I mean, well, Slip was Slip was interesting. It was
[32:29] Speaker 3: sort of it sort of bridged my coming out journey
[32:34] Speaker 3: in terms of the personal and the professional parallels. But
[32:40] Speaker 3: basically the story is a woman who is in a
[32:45] Speaker 3: marriage that's feeling really stagnant and sleeps with someone one
[32:50] Speaker 3: night in a sort of like fit of despair and
[32:53] Speaker 3: wakes up the next morning married to him. And then
[32:55] Speaker 3: over the course of the series, she learns that through orgasm,
[33:00] Speaker 3: she's being teleported to parallel universes. So every episode, like
[33:06] Speaker 3: the central set piece is her orgasm, and it catapults
[33:10] Speaker 3: her into a different life that she's living with a
[33:13] Speaker 3: different person, and and you know, she's with a woman,
[33:19] Speaker 3: she's with like really a variety of people, which I
[33:24] Speaker 3: think was you know, it does sort of mirror the
[33:26] Speaker 3: journey of queerness, where you're like when you're especially later
[33:30] Speaker 3: in life, queers like you and I that like we yeah,
[33:37] Speaker 3: that's it's a process obviously that unfolds. And for me
[33:41] Speaker 3: it was like, who am I? Like, there are always
[33:45] Speaker 3: different versions of me that exist simultaneously, and I, you know,
[33:50] Speaker 3: narratively told that as parallel universes, but I think in
[33:53] Speaker 3: every person there are so many different selves, yes, and
[33:57] Speaker 3: how we honor each of those selves or those selves
[34:01] Speaker 3: was really interesting to me. And then through the lens
[34:04] Speaker 3: of like female sexual pleasure, which felt relatively untapped, you know.
[34:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, and still so taboo.
[34:12] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I had like I remember when when
[34:17] Speaker 3: Fifty Shades of Gray came out as a book. Everywhere
[34:20] Speaker 3: I went there was a woman whose like face was
[34:22] Speaker 3: like pressed into the pages, and I was like, oh,
[34:26] Speaker 3: this is there's a collective hunger among women for sexually
[34:34] Speaker 3: explicit material that like is also woven into a story.
[34:40] Speaker 3: But like, yeah, we've been so historically deprived of being
[34:47] Speaker 3: able to just be unapologetically horny, you know what I mean,
[34:52] Speaker 3: And so I wanted to make a horny show too,
[34:54] Speaker 3: like that could turn women and men and non binary
[34:59] Speaker 3: folk on. It got nominated for two Independent Spirit Awards,
[35:02] Speaker 3: which was a dreaming true for Best New TV Show
[35:05] Speaker 3: and Best Actress and or Its Actor that they actually
[35:08] Speaker 3: don't gender that category of the Indie Spirits, which I
[35:10] Speaker 3: love and it was my baby. But it was also
[35:16] Speaker 3: so exciting to me that something like that could exist
[35:18] Speaker 3: in the world, and it felt like there was maybe
[35:22] Speaker 3: a shift in the ability to portray women not only
[35:28] Speaker 3: as objects of desire but as like agents of it.
[35:32] Speaker 1: And now Slip is streaming on Peacock for new audiences
[35:37] Speaker 1: to discover. We'll be back in just a minute, but
[35:40] Speaker 1: here's a word from our sponsors. Moving into The Miniature Wife,
[35:47] Speaker 1: which for our friends at home, is streaming on Peacock
[35:50] Speaker 1: now you need to watch it. It's really fucking funny, Like,
[35:54] Speaker 1: how do all of those experiences, from moving up the
[35:59] Speaker 1: ranks of indie film to having this gorgeous success and
[36:02] Speaker 1: heartache together with a series like that, how do you
[36:07] Speaker 1: kind of continue taking risks and also insulate yourself a
[36:12] Speaker 1: little bit as an artist for the next thing.
[36:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'll say that, like Miniature Wife, I'm
[36:22] Speaker 3: solely acting in it, which is always a gift, you know,
[36:26] Speaker 3: as a person who wears a lot of hats.
[36:27] Speaker 1: I was wondering if that felt like a relief a
[36:30] Speaker 1: little bit, just to show up and be an actor
[36:32] Speaker 1: and not have to make like forty seven other decisions
[36:34] Speaker 1: throughout the day.
[36:35] Speaker 3: It is so much fun. And Elizabethanks and Matthew mcfaddy
[36:40] Speaker 3: and play the central couple in it, and they're both
[36:43] Speaker 3: just like unbelievable actors. Most of my scenes with Matthew
[36:47] Speaker 3: and so to just like show up and like we
[36:49] Speaker 3: were talking about before, just like play, you know, just
[36:51] Speaker 3: like absolutely play. And the show is so much fun
[36:54] Speaker 3: because it's so playful, Like it's about a man who
[36:58] Speaker 3: shrinks his wife, so it's like honey ash the wife,
[37:01] Speaker 3: but it's about you know, power dynamics in a relationship,
[37:03] Speaker 3: so it's also very relatable, but it's through this sort
[37:07] Speaker 3: of escapeist to fantastical lens and and so showing up
[37:11] Speaker 3: on set like tonally it was such an opportunity to
[37:15] Speaker 3: just be really playful. Yeah, and that was so much fun.
[37:19] Speaker 3: But I'm also like developing a TV show and developing
[37:23] Speaker 3: a movie and so like it was really nice to
[37:26] Speaker 3: be able to do all of those things, but to
[37:28] Speaker 3: get to like go just shoot something and distract myself
[37:33] Speaker 3: from from that. And it shot in Canada, and it
[37:39] Speaker 3: shot right when Trump was inaugurated, so it was like
[37:43] Speaker 3: a sort of perfect escape route. Yeah. But but yeah,
[37:50] Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's so important to like there
[37:54] Speaker 3: are so many opportunities for heartache in a life, you know,
[37:59] Speaker 3: like that and that and that they're they're just that
[38:01] Speaker 3: they're opportunities. Like they're also opportunities to learn so much
[38:05] Speaker 3: about yourself and to learn about what you want to
[38:09] Speaker 3: do next, and to learn about like your fortitude too,
[38:13] Speaker 3: Like that's not going to yeah, that's not going to
[38:15] Speaker 3: stop me, you know. Yeah.
[38:18] Speaker 1: I do think when you know you've put your heart
[38:22] Speaker 1: and soul into something and it partially works or works
[38:27] Speaker 1: and then doesn't or you know, whatever can happen to
[38:30] Speaker 1: us in the space of it. Yeah, throwing yourself into
[38:35] Speaker 1: other things that are just fun is so important, and
[38:39] Speaker 1: it's it's really interesting after the last show that I
[38:44] Speaker 1: had worked on and produced, which we loved, but just
[38:48] Speaker 1: all the timing was off. You know, when you realize, like,
[38:51] Speaker 1: oh god, it's like being it's like being two beats
[38:53] Speaker 1: off the clap. It's just so terrible. You're like, this
[38:57] Speaker 1: would have worked before or later, but not. Yes, Like
[39:01] Speaker 1: I gave myself a homework assignment to really just go
[39:04] Speaker 1: and have fun and to produce a comedy about a
[39:09] Speaker 1: mother and daughter that I did with Lauren Holly, to
[39:11] Speaker 1: go and do this other great comedy that I just
[39:14] Speaker 1: did with Jerry O'Connell, like things that are Jerry, He's
[39:17] Speaker 1: a perfect chance, Like things truly just for fun, even
[39:22] Speaker 1: going and like in between all the movies going back
[39:25] Speaker 1: and forth to Grace, like I just get to go
[39:29] Speaker 1: have a good time. I literally get to go stir
[39:31] Speaker 1: the pot and then be like a med student.
[39:34] Speaker 2: And I needed that a little bit. I needed to.
[39:38] Speaker 1: Not have the whole weight of something on me. I
[39:40] Speaker 1: needed to go have a really fucking good time as
[39:43] Speaker 1: an actor with people who I adore and hear nineties
[39:47] Speaker 1: rom com stories from Lauren and like go and just
[39:51] Speaker 1: shoot the shit, you know, between scenes with Ellen Pompeo,
[39:55] Speaker 1: like that's my girl. She reminds me of of she
[39:59] Speaker 1: has the same kind of energy of like all my
[40:01] Speaker 1: cousins from New York that I'm just obsessed with, And
[40:05] Speaker 1: like the last sort of stint for me has reminded
[40:10] Speaker 1: me why I love our job so much and how
[40:13] Speaker 1: much fun I have doing it. And now I'm like, Okay,
[40:15] Speaker 1: I think I'm ready to go create something. Yes, great, Yeah,
[40:19] Speaker 1: but I needed to not put that pressure on myself
[40:22] Speaker 1: for a beat and just love it.
[40:24] Speaker 3: No. Unfortunately, I don't think like creativity thrives.
[40:28] Speaker 2: Under pressure, my insurance, doesn't.
[40:32] Speaker 3: It thrives in like the liminal spaces, you know, it
[40:34] Speaker 3: thrives when you wake up or when you're in the
[40:36] Speaker 3: shower or you know, like that's when I always get
[40:38] Speaker 3: my ideas. It's like when I actually give my brain
[40:40] Speaker 3: permission to turn off, which I think goes back to
[40:45] Speaker 3: like the idea of surrender, Like when you can kind
[40:48] Speaker 3: of just surrender and try to be present, that's when
[40:52] Speaker 3: I think it flows.
[40:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.
[40:56] Speaker 1: Well, maybe it's surrender, maybe it's something else. But when
[41:01] Speaker 1: you when you think about this moment for you, whether
[41:05] Speaker 1: it's you know, in your own personhood or or as
[41:08] Speaker 1: an artist or a creator, like on any level, what
[41:12] Speaker 1: feels like you're work in progress.
[41:15] Speaker 3: Oh my god, there is so much work in progress
[41:19] Speaker 3: at the.
[41:19] Speaker 1: Part it's solving the crisis of the film industry dollar.
[41:25] Speaker 3: I mean, my work in progress at the moment is
[41:30] Speaker 3: myself is Like it's a really corny and vague answer,
[41:36] Speaker 3: but like acts of self love, like esteemable acts that
[41:42] Speaker 3: build self esteem, not esteem based on external validation. That
[41:47] Speaker 3: is a work in progress and I am working it.
[41:51] Speaker 3: But it's really a wild thing. I think. You know,
[41:55] Speaker 3: when you when you start to really when I start
[41:57] Speaker 3: to really pay attention to how much negative self talks
[42:00] Speaker 3: exists in a day that I have just been kind
[42:04] Speaker 3: of like accepting as the norm until I put a
[42:08] Speaker 3: microscope on it. Yeah, that's like my current work in progress. Obviously,
[42:14] Speaker 3: you know, I also don't want to be like too
[42:16] Speaker 3: naval gazy in a moment that requires a lot of engagement.
[42:19] Speaker 3: So like I think it is personal spiritual surrender, but
[42:23] Speaker 3: like civic engagement.
[42:26] Speaker 2: It kind of has to be all of it, right.
[42:28] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally, yeah, yeah, I think that's like, that's
[42:33] Speaker 3: the journey, that's the current journey. Yeah yeah, I feel that.
[42:37] Speaker 1: I feel that and figuring out figuring out what naval
[42:42] Speaker 1: gazing as a phrase is actually quite necessary for growth,
[42:47] Speaker 1: and then also when to just stop and do other things,
[42:51] Speaker 1: you know, I think sometimes, at least for me, as
[42:55] Speaker 1: much as I'm like raw raw, women can do everything.
[42:59] Speaker 2: I realize I haven't addressed.
[43:01] Speaker 1: How much negativity society encourages us to practice on ourselves.
[43:07] Speaker 1: And it's been a really interesting thing being in my
[43:09] Speaker 1: relationship with Ash. She will stop me sometimes and be like,
[43:13] Speaker 1: you are so.
[43:14] Speaker 2: Hard on yourself.
[43:16] Speaker 1: Stop it, like stop, And I don't realize how unkind
[43:22] Speaker 1: I'm being to myself until the person who I love
[43:25] Speaker 1: the most in the world, who loves me, is hurt
[43:29] Speaker 1: by how little love I show myself. And that is
[43:33] Speaker 1: this sort of revelatory thing where I go, oh, I'm
[43:36] Speaker 1: probably gonna have to shift this dynamic if I want
[43:40] Speaker 1: to make the art I desire to be a part of,
[43:46] Speaker 1: or create the sustainable change I believe is possible. I
[43:49] Speaker 1: think it does start on the inside. And then also
[43:52] Speaker 1: there's moments where I'm like, oh, shut the fuck up
[43:54] Speaker 1: and get out of your own way and just go
[43:57] Speaker 1: do the thing, like you know, in the time of
[44:00] Speaker 1: us doing this last night. Yesterday was Transdaive visibility and
[44:04] Speaker 1: it was also National Run for Something Day, National Run
[44:07] Speaker 1: for Office Day. And I got on the Run for
[44:10] Speaker 1: Something Zoom last night because I was like, things are
[44:12] Speaker 1: terrible and the Supreme Court fucking sucks and what are
[44:15] Speaker 1: we doing?
[44:15] Speaker 2: And I just I sat.
[44:17] Speaker 1: On a Zoom for ninety minutes, like in the backstage
[44:20] Speaker 1: waiting room, just listening to inspiring people talk.
[44:23] Speaker 2: And by the time I had to talk, I was like,
[44:25] Speaker 2: I feel so much.
[44:27] Speaker 3: I needed this. Yes, I think it is. It's like
[44:31] Speaker 3: it is finding that balance is so important because too
[44:36] Speaker 3: much self work, you know, can also like bleed into perfectionism,
[44:42] Speaker 3: which then is part of the bad part where you're
[44:45] Speaker 3: like I must be perfect, I must figure this out.
[44:48] Speaker 3: It is about like interrupting it with also like investing
[44:52] Speaker 3: in your community, yeah, and getting out of your own way.
[44:57] Speaker 3: So I love that you did.
[44:58] Speaker 1: That trying like literally just you know, I feel like
[45:04] Speaker 1: the cartoon of like miss is incredible. Just stretch, just
[45:08] Speaker 1: for just trying to catch all the things, but like
[45:10] Speaker 1: we're not giving up. You know, we're bruised, we're battered,
[45:13] Speaker 1: We're getting up for another round.
[45:15] Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I just.
[45:18] Speaker 2: Love getting to spend an hour with you.
[45:20] Speaker 3: Me too, I'm so inspired by you always. Yeah.
[45:24] Speaker 1: Same, And please tell Sammy, I just adore them. I
[45:28] Speaker 1: hope we all get to hang.
[45:30] Speaker 3: I would love a double me too date and with
[45:34] Speaker 3: our moms. A double date with our moms.
[45:37] Speaker 1: We have to I can't wait, Like I actually can't
[45:41] Speaker 1: wait to see them in the same space.
[45:43] Speaker 3: I would love that, right.
[45:45] Speaker 1: Yes, I'm really I've really hit a stride where I
[45:50] Speaker 1: like hanging out with my.
[45:51] Speaker 2: Mom quite a bit.
[45:53] Speaker 3: Isn't that nice?
[45:54] Speaker 1: We didn't always have that, and we're in like a
[45:56] Speaker 1: really fun zone.
[45:58] Speaker 3: No, that's so nice. Do you think changed?
[46:03] Speaker 1: Honestly, I think there was work she had to do,
[46:07] Speaker 1: which I have so much grace for, but also I'm like,
[46:10] Speaker 1: I can't be the one to do it for you,
[46:13] Speaker 1: And I think there were life lessons that I needed
[46:16] Speaker 1: to learn to understand.
[46:19] Speaker 2: What she had been through.
[46:21] Speaker 1: And I think on the other side of us both
[46:24] Speaker 1: going through a real sort of deconstruction of life pattern
[46:30] Speaker 1: Like I finally looked at my parents and was like,
[46:32] Speaker 1: oh my god, I've literally repeated every mistake you guys
[46:35] Speaker 1: ever made, and that's not actually my fault or your fault.
[46:41] Speaker 1: We never talked about any of it, and we finally
[46:44] Speaker 1: sat down and did like the family meeting and talked
[46:46] Speaker 1: about everything, and it was so hard. But on the
[46:52] Speaker 1: other side, it was like we had shed all this
[46:54] Speaker 1: shit that wasn't any of ours to carry. Yeah, and
[46:59] Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means we're
[47:01] Speaker 1: not continuing to carry it.
[47:03] Speaker 2: On our backs.
[47:05] Speaker 1: And now we really like hanging out with each other
[47:09] Speaker 1: because all of our pain that's on our backs isn't
[47:12] Speaker 1: like stabbing each other over.
[47:14] Speaker 3: You know, right, Yes, totally.
[47:17] Speaker 2: It's really interesting.
[47:19] Speaker 3: And that is like a testament to doing the work
[47:21] Speaker 3: on yourself that it then allows you to like connect
[47:27] Speaker 3: in a totally different way.
[47:28] Speaker 1: And then I was like, I do understand why I
[47:31] Speaker 1: rejected the navel gazing because I was unkind to myself
[47:35] Speaker 1: and was like, you privileged bitch, like you've been on
[47:36] Speaker 1: TV since you were twenty, go do.
[47:38] Speaker 2: Shit for other people.
[47:39] Speaker 1: But I'm like, maybe I should have just applied like
[47:41] Speaker 1: ten percent of that work to me, because maybe it
[47:45] Speaker 1: wouldn't have taken me twenty adult years to have some
[47:49] Speaker 1: aha moments.
[47:50] Speaker 3: That's right, aha aha. But you know what, don't blame yourself.
[47:56] Speaker 3: That's part of the problem.
[47:58] Speaker 2: Yeah no, yeah, myself, Hop off the mat.
[48:01] Speaker 3: Listen. We evolve in the time that we are meant
[48:05] Speaker 3: to evolve.
[48:06] Speaker 2: That part.
[48:06] Speaker 1: I've always been a late bloomer here I.
[48:08] Speaker 3: Am same, same, always, and that's like honor that. That's nice.
[48:16] Speaker 3: We did it, Yeah, we did it.
[48:18] Speaker 2: We did it job. I know we'll hold it.
[48:24] Speaker 3: We're holding it. Yeah.
[48:27] Speaker 2: I just love you.
[48:28] Speaker 3: I love you too.

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