# Pete Buttigieg

An episode of [Drama Queens](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1571792783), 25 Feb 2026, 48 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/e53aefd3-699f-4685-9a84-aed700f383fa/a0d219de-b5bd-4b17-9778-b3fc0089dd9d/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=cf2e6477-1a1d-4442-8b33-ae320005bb63

In a rare, deeply personal conversation, former — and perhaps future — presidential candidate Pete Buttigieg opens up about what it’s really like to lead, love, and parent in a country in crisis. From the life-defining decisions that shaped the man behind the headlines, to why he’s willing to put everything on the line when the stakes have never been higher, Pete reveals how he’s rising to the moment while staying grounded in what matters most. Stay updated on all things Pete here. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
[0:15] Speaker 1: back to Work in Progress. This week, friends, we have
[0:19] Speaker 1: the ultimate whip smart guest here with us today, someone
[0:24] Speaker 1: that I have been geeked to have on the show
[0:27] Speaker 1: and who I have been lucky enough to be in
[0:29] Speaker 1: rooms with over the years, fighting for what's right, standing
[0:33] Speaker 1: for what's good, and who's smarter than today's guest. Pete
[0:38] Speaker 1: Budhachez is here. Friends. If you have found yourself pausing
[0:44] Speaker 1: mid political argument that you hear on TV and you think,
[0:47] Speaker 1: wait a second, this actually makes a lot of sense.
[0:50] Speaker 1: I would bet you money that you're watching Pete Budhacheje
[0:53] Speaker 1: on screen and I can't believe I'm going to say it.
[0:56] Speaker 1: You're probably watching him completely deconstructing saying arguments on Fox News.
[1:02] Speaker 1: He manages to answer tough questions with such calm and precision.
[1:07] Speaker 1: His steadiness is disarming, his smile is so charming, and
[1:11] Speaker 1: he's just the nicest Midwestern guy in the political sphere.
[1:17] Speaker 1: He was elected at just twenty nine years old as
[1:20] Speaker 1: a young mayor in South Bend, Indiana. He served as
[1:24] Speaker 1: a Navy reservist. He was deployed to Afghanistan. He was
[1:27] Speaker 1: a Rhodes scholar. Oh and, by the way, the first
[1:30] Speaker 1: openly gay Senate confirmed Cabinet secretary in US history. His
[1:34] Speaker 1: resume is incredibly impressive, his commitment to human goodness is
[1:39] Speaker 1: incredibly inspiring, and he manages to spin all of these
[1:43] Speaker 1: plates while being a devoted husband and a loving father
[1:47] Speaker 1: of two. And I am just so thrilled that he's
[1:50] Speaker 1: here with us today. I want to ask him questions
[1:52] Speaker 1: about leadership, about parenting, and about how he's meeting the
[1:56] Speaker 1: moment in this absolute insane dumpster of a twenty twenty six.
[2:02] Speaker 1: It's crazy out there, friends, but we're managing to find
[2:05] Speaker 1: some good and some hope, and dare I say some
[2:09] Speaker 1: inspiration together, Let's dive in with Pete Boota Chuench. Hello, Hi,
[2:25] Speaker 1: how are you all right?
[2:26] Speaker 2: How are you doing?
[2:27] Speaker 1: I'm really well. It's so nice to see you.
[2:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, same here.
[2:30] Speaker 1: Yeah. My team was asking if we'd met, and it
[2:33] Speaker 1: was funny. I realized we had that early fundraiser for
[2:37] Speaker 1: you out here in LA that Lee Daniels hosted. Oh yeah,
[2:42] Speaker 1: it was so much fun and so great to meet
[2:45] Speaker 1: so many people in your world. And then I was
[2:48] Speaker 1: telling everyone about how special the Iowa State Fair weekend
[2:53] Speaker 1: gun Sense Forum was back in twenty nineteen during the primary,
[2:57] Speaker 1: And yeah, I just realized we've all kind of been
[2:59] Speaker 1: in the trench together for a long time. So thank
[3:02] Speaker 1: you for staying in the fight the way you do.
[3:05] Speaker 2: Well. Likewise, thanks for raising your voice. It's proven to
[3:09] Speaker 2: be even more important now than it was then.
[3:11] Speaker 1: Oh well, thanks. I try, and I do occasionally remind
[3:16] Speaker 1: myself that it is important for those of us who
[3:18] Speaker 1: don't hold elected office or an official journalism seat on
[3:22] Speaker 1: the news to be able to say so many things
[3:24] Speaker 1: that you guys sometimes can't. So I'm here, I'm here,
[3:29] Speaker 1: and I'm loud, and I'm not going anywhere.
[3:32] Speaker 2: Good.
[3:33] Speaker 1: Well, there's a million things I want to ask you about.
[3:35] Speaker 1: I mean, the state of the world and your record,
[3:38] Speaker 1: and what it's like to serve you both for the
[3:42] Speaker 1: country and an office and all of it. But before
[3:45] Speaker 1: we get into that staff and then all the side
[3:48] Speaker 1: note questions I have about young parent life, I actually
[3:52] Speaker 1: really want to go back because I get to sit
[3:56] Speaker 1: across from fascinating people like yourself. One who sits in
[4:00] Speaker 1: the hot seat has a career that people know, you know,
[4:03] Speaker 1: they know your life they know your work. But I'm
[4:06] Speaker 1: always really curious about folks I admire before we knew
[4:10] Speaker 1: them publicly. And I especially like asking this question of
[4:15] Speaker 1: parents because I think at a certain point, you're reflecting
[4:20] Speaker 1: backwards and also forwards. And I wonder if we could
[4:24] Speaker 1: have like our own Marty McFly day and go back
[4:27] Speaker 1: in time, and we could be having this conversation and
[4:30] Speaker 1: walk out onto a playground and see our ten year
[4:32] Speaker 1: old selves. Would you see the man you are today
[4:38] Speaker 1: in that young boy? And do you think he would
[4:41] Speaker 1: recognize himself in you?
[4:44] Speaker 2: Wow, that really makes me think. I don't know. I
[4:50] Speaker 2: definitely would not have emerged as a gregarious political type
[4:56] Speaker 2: when I was ten years old, although I feel like
[4:58] Speaker 2: I'm not one now forty four either, even though I'm
[5:02] Speaker 2: involved in politics and I love love being around people,
[5:06] Speaker 2: but you know, I largely kept to myself, pretty nerdy,
[5:10] Speaker 2: you know, absorbed in the handful of things I really
[5:13] Speaker 2: cared about most. And you know, I think at the
[5:19] Speaker 2: time I understood started to understand that the world was
[5:23] Speaker 2: kind of divided into like bookish or intelligent people and
[5:28] Speaker 2: then the opposite, which was popular people and social people.
[5:30] Speaker 2: And I thought I kind of chose between one or
[5:32] Speaker 2: the other. So you know, one I guess thing I've
[5:36] Speaker 2: been happy to learn in life is that there is
[5:39] Speaker 2: a way to you know, link the life of the
[5:43] Speaker 2: mind and the things you care about and things that
[5:45] Speaker 2: are we're studying and getting smart on to participating in
[5:49] Speaker 2: public life and being very socially engaged in social and
[5:53] Speaker 2: involved and connected. But yeah, I mean, when I was ten,
[5:57] Speaker 2: I think my fondest wish was to probably be an
[5:59] Speaker 2: airline pilot. I had some awareness of politics, but it
[6:04] Speaker 2: wasn't really you know, what I thought I'd be spending
[6:06] Speaker 2: my life on. So who knows what a ten year
[6:09] Speaker 2: old me would have thought of Of what I've become
[6:13] Speaker 2: and what I do these days, that's really exciting.
[6:16] Speaker 1: What what were you reading? What were your bookish habits
[6:20] Speaker 1: revolving around then?
[6:21] Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's right about the age when I hit
[6:24] Speaker 2: my Star Trek phase, So I read anything related to
[6:28] Speaker 2: Star Trek the next Generation, which was also what I've
[6:31] Speaker 2: been would have been watching on TV. And yeah, it
[6:37] Speaker 2: just it's funny because I started out with more of
[6:39] Speaker 2: a science mind, and I think I wound up with
[6:41] Speaker 2: more of a kind of arts and humanities and social studies. Mine.
[6:46] Speaker 2: But yeah, god's harding put myself back in those days.
[6:51] Speaker 2: I remember the kind of paperbacks that were going around,
[6:53] Speaker 2: you know, the Goosebumps books and stuff like that that that, yeah,
[6:56] Speaker 2: we're reading. I'd go to the library and check out
[6:59] Speaker 2: books on the Titanic, which I was obsessed with before
[7:03] Speaker 2: it was a movie, by the way, well that made
[7:05] Speaker 2: it cool. But I was just fascinated by the Titanic
[7:08] Speaker 2: and the discovery the Titanic. In fact, I think the
[7:11] Speaker 2: first time, maybe the only time I ever wrote a
[7:12] Speaker 2: fan letter was to Robert Ballard, the discoverer the Titanic,
[7:16] Speaker 2: who famously in the eighties was on this National Geographic
[7:21] Speaker 2: covered expedition and found it. And one of the great
[7:25] Speaker 2: things about public life is sometimes you get to meet
[7:26] Speaker 2: your heroes. And I had a chance to meet him
[7:29] Speaker 2: while I was secretary. Yeah, he actually stopped by. He
[7:32] Speaker 2: actually asked for the meeting. I don't know how exactly
[7:35] Speaker 2: it came about, but he was interested and a couple
[7:38] Speaker 2: of things I was working on and just had this
[7:41] Speaker 2: out of body experience of watching him over breakfast lay
[7:45] Speaker 2: blueberries out on the table to explain the trajectory that
[7:50] Speaker 2: his research vessel was taking. Through the North Atlantic where
[7:54] Speaker 2: it was covering. It turns out on a secret mission
[7:57] Speaker 2: covering a Navy funded effort to find the wreckage of
[8:02] Speaker 2: nuclear submarines, which was how he got the Navy to
[8:06] Speaker 2: give him the funding that he then used to find
[8:09] Speaker 2: the Titanic on the same mission. He has a new
[8:11] Speaker 2: memoir out, so this has been declassified, but we didn't
[8:14] Speaker 2: know this at the time, So the story is even
[8:16] Speaker 2: more amazing now than it was then. And I just
[8:19] Speaker 2: my jaw dropped as I watched this person who was
[8:21] Speaker 2: a hero of mine as a kid, telling that story
[8:23] Speaker 2: in front of me. It was a really really cool thing.
[8:26] Speaker 2: But yeah, you know, the Titanic, Tornadoes, Star Trek, all
[8:30] Speaker 2: those kind of nerdy pursuits were the legos. One of
[8:33] Speaker 2: the wonderful things about our kids turning forward as they're
[8:37] Speaker 2: reaching the lego phase, which is throwing me right back
[8:41] Speaker 2: to when, you know, my fondest hope was to get
[8:45] Speaker 2: a chance to build a Lego set any given day
[8:47] Speaker 2: when I was a kid. In fact, sometimes I have
[8:48] Speaker 2: to remember that it's their legos, not Papa's legos. Like,
[8:53] Speaker 2: if they don't want to play with legos right now,
[8:54] Speaker 2: that's okay. I try not to push it too much.
[8:58] Speaker 2: But all of a sudden, in fact, even this morning,
[9:00] Speaker 2: before I caught a flight, somebody for Valentine's Day gave
[9:03] Speaker 2: Gus our son like a little noise, little kind of
[9:06] Speaker 2: mini micro lego of packets that was like a penguin.
[9:10] Speaker 2: And I was torn between knowing that I needed to
[9:12] Speaker 2: leave to get to the airport in time, and him
[9:15] Speaker 2: in the minutes before heading to school, insisting that I
[9:19] Speaker 2: help him just put a couple more pieces on this
[9:20] Speaker 2: little lego penguin, and genuinely not being sure what I
[9:24] Speaker 2: should do right And just to be clear, we finished
[9:27] Speaker 2: the penguin before I left the house.
[9:29] Speaker 1: I love that. I love that. See that is where
[9:31] Speaker 1: your ten year old self and your present self really
[9:34] Speaker 1: get to merge. It's so crazy to hear you tell
[9:37] Speaker 1: some of these stories. I've never heard them. And I
[9:41] Speaker 1: too was a nat geo kid, I mean obsessively so
[9:44] Speaker 1: an obsessive lego kid. And I have to say I
[9:48] Speaker 1: have never earned more points with my godson who is
[9:52] Speaker 1: about to before than last Christmas when I won Lego
[9:55] Speaker 1: Masters WHOA And I genuinely was like, this is the
[10:00] Speaker 1: pinnacle moment of my career, Like Yeah, movies are great.
[10:03] Speaker 1: TV shows are fine, but this to be able to
[10:06] Speaker 1: do a TV show about my favorite nerdy hobby from
[10:09] Speaker 1: my childhood because I too wanted to tinker and build
[10:13] Speaker 1: and then watch documentaries and read weird history books. And
[10:18] Speaker 1: as an adult, I'm thrilled there's a third lane for us,
[10:21] Speaker 1: those of us who kind of like straddle both worlds.
[10:25] Speaker 1: It's so cool if you love the sort of clandestine
[10:31] Speaker 1: explorer meets pirate world of mister Ballard. There's a documentary
[10:36] Speaker 1: called The Farthest about when we sent the voyager out
[10:41] Speaker 1: for the very first time to photograph the outer planets.
[10:44] Speaker 1: Oh wow, and NASA. The guys at NASA, including Carl Sagan,
[10:48] Speaker 1: did some seriously cowboys. That's crazy to learn as an adult,
[10:53] Speaker 1: you're like, wait, what do you You did what to
[10:56] Speaker 1: get that funding? Like you said what to the president?
[10:59] Speaker 1: It's wild? So that has to go on your list.
[11:02] Speaker 2: All right, that's on my list. I got to see that.
[11:04] Speaker 2: I think that's the most fascinating thing and spooky eerie
[11:06] Speaker 2: right to know that there's this thing that's been out
[11:08] Speaker 2: there for what almost fifty years now or maybe more,
[11:12] Speaker 2: and I think it's still pinging.
[11:14] Speaker 1: Out there, it's out there. It's out there. We lost
[11:17] Speaker 1: the last transmission, and I watched the moment that the
[11:23] Speaker 1: scientists essentially had to say goodbye, and I wept. And interestingly,
[11:29] Speaker 1: I think it will touch you in the same way
[11:31] Speaker 1: it does me, because when you fast forward to this
[11:34] Speaker 1: moment where things are so fraught and they're echoing some
[11:38] Speaker 1: of the worst times in history, and you think about
[11:41] Speaker 1: this mission being in between then and now, the idea
[11:46] Speaker 1: that we not only sent out this spacecraft, but that
[11:51] Speaker 1: we made art on it, and the art was an
[11:55] Speaker 1: invitation to get to know us with instructions about how
[11:59] Speaker 1: to come and see. Yes, it has taken me years,
[12:03] Speaker 1: having seen this movie and rewatching it every year in
[12:07] Speaker 1: the summer, to be able to talk about it without weeping,
[12:11] Speaker 1: because it was kind of the best of us in
[12:14] Speaker 1: this moment, saying hey, whoever's out there, come say hi.
[12:19] Speaker 1: Can you imagine I mean that that kind of interstellar
[12:23] Speaker 1: neighborly attitude. It's crazy to me, it's so cool.
[12:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that's that spirits still there. And yeah,
[12:30] Speaker 2: maybe at the moment I would say it comes say high,
[12:32] Speaker 2: but like it gives a few years to get some
[12:35] Speaker 2: things together first, but yeah, there's something touching and there's
[12:39] Speaker 2: something universal about that right that that reminds us. It
[12:42] Speaker 2: just kind of pulls us out of the moment and
[12:44] Speaker 2: the fight between parties and between countries and reminds us
[12:47] Speaker 2: that there're, you know, some things, there's some things we're
[12:50] Speaker 2: up against. It we're up against as a species, not
[12:53] Speaker 2: just as as country or as a as a family
[12:55] Speaker 2: or as a community.
[12:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty profound. It made me. It made me
[12:59] Speaker 1: giggle last week, you know, in the time where we're
[13:02] Speaker 1: recording this. Last week, President Obama got asked about aliens
[13:05] Speaker 1: and he was like, well, yeah, and then he was
[13:07] Speaker 1: like wait, wait, wait, hold on, like roll it back.
[13:10] Speaker 1: I'm not saying there's aliens at area fifty one. I'm
[13:12] Speaker 1: just saying statistically the size of the universe, the galaxies.
[13:16] Speaker 1: Everybody calmed down, and I was like, oh boy, here
[13:18] Speaker 1: we go. It was pretty great. I'm curious for you,
[13:24] Speaker 1: as a curious kid who maintains that curiosity in your adulthood.
[13:29] Speaker 1: I have this sort of lore about you. You know,
[13:32] Speaker 1: I grew up with parents in the arts, but you
[13:34] Speaker 1: grew up with your parents being college professors, which to
[13:38] Speaker 1: me seems like the coolest house to have dinner in. Ever.
[13:43] Speaker 1: Was it like, were you constantly surrounded by all these
[13:46] Speaker 1: fascinating minds or did they leave work at work?
[13:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, in hindsight, yeah, I don't think I understood it
[13:52] Speaker 2: at the time. You know, we lived in a middle
[13:54] Speaker 2: class neighborhood and in northern Indiana. If anything like being
[14:00] Speaker 2: being a kid of people who worked at the university,
[14:02] Speaker 2: which is probably the biggest employer in South Bend, Indiana,
[14:04] Speaker 2: but but it was largely an industrial town. So if
[14:07] Speaker 2: your parents were at the university kind of marked you
[14:09] Speaker 2: out as maybe a little bit a little bit different
[14:14] Speaker 2: from everybody else who had All the other kids who
[14:16] Speaker 2: had his parents had jobs that I actually understood what
[14:19] Speaker 2: they were, right. You know, somebody's parents were nurses or
[14:24] Speaker 2: teachers or or you know, friend's dad who managed at
[14:28] Speaker 2: pizza place, Like I understood exactly what that was. And
[14:31] Speaker 2: then I had to explain kind of what my parents did,
[14:33] Speaker 2: and it's hard to actually hard to actually grasp it,
[14:37] Speaker 2: let alone. I was thinking about that last year because
[14:40] Speaker 2: because our kids were old enough to start asking what,
[14:43] Speaker 2: you know, what we do, and I could kind of explain.
[14:46] Speaker 2: When I was Secretary of Transportation once I really thought
[14:49] Speaker 2: about it. I could say, okay, well, well you know,
[14:51] Speaker 2: tomorrow I'm going to help fix a bridge. A big
[14:53] Speaker 2: bridge fell down and I'm helping fix it, or you know,
[14:57] Speaker 2: I'm helping make the airplanes safer. But then after I
[15:01] Speaker 2: finished my time in the cabinet and I had a
[15:03] Speaker 2: brief stint at the University of Chicago, I was a
[15:06] Speaker 2: fellow there, and my daughter was asking me like, what
[15:11] Speaker 2: are you what are you doing for work? And it
[15:13] Speaker 2: took me a minute and then I hit on it.
[15:15] Speaker 2: I said, well, I'm a teacher for grown ups. And
[15:19] Speaker 2: she was really upset. She said, but no, you're You're
[15:22] Speaker 2: my papa, that's your job. I was like, no, no, no,
[15:24] Speaker 2: I can be both. I promise be a papa and
[15:26] Speaker 2: also be a teacher for grown ups. But yeah, in hindsight,
[15:31] Speaker 2: it was a great world to grow up. And because
[15:33] Speaker 2: some of the you know, some of the grown ups
[15:35] Speaker 2: that I met when I was a kid who were
[15:37] Speaker 2: asking me about, you know, being nice and asking me
[15:39] Speaker 2: about a loose tooth or what was going on with
[15:41] Speaker 2: my homework or whatever. You were also really impressive people,
[15:45] Speaker 2: scholars in their fields doing really really cool stuff. And
[15:50] Speaker 2: some of them had a real lives of moral leadership
[15:53] Speaker 2: as well, which which I gradually learned to understand and
[15:56] Speaker 2: to respect. Many of the people my parents became friends
[16:00] Speaker 2: with in the eighties were involved in kind of the
[16:03] Speaker 2: big on campus activist cause at the time, which was
[16:07] Speaker 2: standing up against apartheid in South Africa and pressing the
[16:12] Speaker 2: university to not invest in South Africa until apartheid fell.
[16:18] Speaker 2: And that was something my father had cared about all
[16:22] Speaker 2: his life. He talked about back when he was a
[16:23] Speaker 2: student participating in a protest where they would tie up
[16:29] Speaker 2: the offices of South African Airlines. This is in London,
[16:32] Speaker 2: he was in England before he immigrated to the US,
[16:36] Speaker 2: and they would as an organized action, they would pair
[16:39] Speaker 2: a white student and a black student as a couple,
[16:42] Speaker 2: a man and a woman, and they would all line
[16:44] Speaker 2: up one by one and go in to book a ticket,
[16:48] Speaker 2: and the ticketing agency would turn them away because they
[16:51] Speaker 2: wouldn't book a ticket for a couple that that was
[16:56] Speaker 2: mixed race. And so there's this way to kind of,
[16:59] Speaker 2: you know, use used their their prejudice as a vulnerability
[17:03] Speaker 2: and demonstrate something at the same time. So you fast
[17:06] Speaker 2: forward to the eighties and nineties or certainly the eighties,
[17:09] Speaker 2: and and that was the cause they continued to be
[17:11] Speaker 2: involved with. One of my dad's fellow professors who came
[17:16] Speaker 2: from it was a white South African who actually was
[17:19] Speaker 2: originally from Rhodesia which became Zimbabwe. Could have had probably
[17:23] Speaker 2: a professional cricket career, but refused to play on a
[17:28] Speaker 2: team for UH, for a country that was that was
[17:32] Speaker 2: in an apartheid system. Incredible and UH and then wound
[17:35] Speaker 2: up as a as a political scientist at Notre Dame.
[17:38] Speaker 2: So yeah, in hindsight, what a privilege to be around
[17:40] Speaker 2: some of these incredible people. But to me, there were
[17:43] Speaker 2: just other grown ups that you know, when I was done,
[17:46] Speaker 2: you know, playing in the park with with my friends
[17:48] Speaker 2: and neighbor kids and came in for dinner. Sometimes they'd
[17:50] Speaker 2: be over for dinner, I just kind of soak up
[17:54] Speaker 2: some of the dinner conversation or not. But I guess
[17:56] Speaker 2: that's part of how I learned about how the world works.
[17:58] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really amazing to hear you say that. It
[18:01] Speaker 1: makes me think about my own childhood because you know,
[18:03] Speaker 1: we're the we're the same age. I'll be forty four
[18:06] Speaker 1: this year, and I grew up in the eighties in
[18:10] Speaker 1: LA with a dad who's an immigrant and an artist,
[18:14] Speaker 1: and a mom whose mother was an immigrant who you know,
[18:17] Speaker 1: came through Ellis Island, lived in a housing project in
[18:19] Speaker 1: the Bronx, like these very American stories. And in the
[18:24] Speaker 1: eighties in Los Angeles, in my dad's studio, everybody was gay, everybody,
[18:29] Speaker 1: everybody was diverse. I was like, my uncle Jeff was
[18:34] Speaker 1: a makeup artist and his husband Winston, performed in drag
[18:37] Speaker 1: in West Hollywood is Diana Ross every Saturday night, and like,
[18:41] Speaker 1: this gorgeous man with this beautiful dark skin would transform
[18:46] Speaker 1: into this lady with massive hair and red sequins, and
[18:50] Speaker 1: I was like, these are the coolest people I've ever met.
[18:54] Speaker 1: And we would play dress up together.
[18:56] Speaker 2: Wow, Yeah, that was that was not going on in
[18:59] Speaker 2: Indiana West not But it's.
[19:01] Speaker 1: Like, how crazy that you were learning about apartheid. And
[19:06] Speaker 1: I realized, even only recently, when people asked me about
[19:09] Speaker 1: my journey into activism, I thought it was national geographic.
[19:13] Speaker 1: I thought it was all the books I was reading.
[19:14] Speaker 1: I thought it was growing up in southern California and
[19:17] Speaker 1: advocating for the forests and the oceans. And then I realized,
[19:21] Speaker 1: oh no, I was going to pride marches in a
[19:25] Speaker 1: stroller like I was getting in fights on the playground
[19:31] Speaker 1: because kids were using the other F word, and I
[19:34] Speaker 1: was like, don't you talk about my uncles that way?
[19:37] Speaker 1: You know, and you realize how shaped for the better
[19:42] Speaker 1: you can be by being exposed to other people's journeys
[19:45] Speaker 1: and realities, and also the purity of a kid going, well,
[19:50] Speaker 1: that's the best person I know. So when you grow
[19:53] Speaker 1: up and someone's criticizing somebody for who they love or
[19:56] Speaker 1: what they look like, you go, well, that's absolutely stupid.
[19:59] Speaker 1: And some adult made that up to fight over something
[20:02] Speaker 1: that isn't real because they don't want to fix the
[20:04] Speaker 1: problems that are sounds a lot like the current White House.
[20:09] Speaker 1: I mean, it's so surreal, I think, to be at
[20:13] Speaker 1: this age and this place, because we've lived long enough
[20:17] Speaker 1: to know our history, right. And when I think about
[20:21] Speaker 1: your history in South Bend, becoming the mayor at twenty nine,
[20:26] Speaker 1: you know, a young leader after having been a Rhodes scholar.
[20:31] Speaker 2: I mean.
[20:33] Speaker 1: Entering into public life in that time, listening to the
[20:37] Speaker 1: conversations at your table that you did understanding not just
[20:42] Speaker 1: what was happening in your college town in Indiana, but
[20:45] Speaker 1: the history of how things shifted around the world. Why
[20:49] Speaker 1: did you decide to run for a mayor in the
[20:51] Speaker 1: first place. Did you find the calling when you were
[20:54] Speaker 1: in your collegiate studies or was it the sort of
[20:57] Speaker 1: thing where you feel like the job picked you.
[21:01] Speaker 2: Well, like I was starting to say, you know, even
[21:04] Speaker 2: though South Bend is a city that's known for Notre
[21:07] Speaker 2: Dame being there, it doesn't really have the character of
[21:09] Speaker 2: a college town. You know. It was a company town
[21:12] Speaker 2: for Studibaker, which was a major automaker until it died
[21:16] Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty three. And I didn't really understand until
[21:20] Speaker 2: I left that it was unusual to have broken down
[21:24] Speaker 2: factories and acres of collapsing buildings everywhere you went, because
[21:28] Speaker 2: our city had never really recovered from losing Studentmaker. And
[21:32] Speaker 2: then there were even more blows that came in the
[21:34] Speaker 2: nineties to other parts of the auto industry. So, honestly,
[21:38] Speaker 2: when I was growing up, the message I got about
[21:40] Speaker 2: my community was mostly that if you wanted to make
[21:42] Speaker 2: something of yourself, you had to get out, which was
[21:45] Speaker 2: a lot of people did. That's what I did, and
[21:47] Speaker 2: then as soon as I did, that's when I realized
[21:50] Speaker 2: I was from somewhere. I didn't realize that I was
[21:53] Speaker 2: a very Midwestern person until I got to college on
[21:57] Speaker 2: the East Coast and realized, and this is nothing against
[22:01] Speaker 2: the East Coast, but I just that was a culture
[22:03] Speaker 2: and it was different from the culture that I was from,
[22:07] Speaker 2: and I started to realize that I belonged closer to home.
[22:10] Speaker 2: And I also found that a lot of folks I
[22:12] Speaker 2: had grown up with that kind of generation of people
[22:14] Speaker 2: who have a similar story, had got a similar message
[22:18] Speaker 2: growing up. All were asking, well, why can't our city
[22:21] Speaker 2: be more than it is? Why can't our city be growing?
[22:25] Speaker 2: And I think the more down on that community, and
[22:29] Speaker 2: on the industrial Midwest generally, more down on it, people became,
[22:32] Speaker 2: the more militant I became about believing in the place.
[22:35] Speaker 2: I remember you standing at a party with a lot
[22:38] Speaker 2: of coastal college grad friends, holding a beer in my hand,
[22:42] Speaker 2: explaining that I was moving back to Indiana, and someone
[22:46] Speaker 2: asked me if my parents were ill, if that was
[22:48] Speaker 2: the reason I was going back, because I couldn't imagine
[22:50] Speaker 2: that I would just go back because because I thought
[22:52] Speaker 2: it longer, I wanted to. Yeah. Another friend who could
[22:56] Speaker 2: never remember whether it was Iowa or Idaho or Indiana that.
[22:59] Speaker 1: I was, Oh my god, You're like, they're really not similar.
[23:03] Speaker 2: At all exactly. And so I think all of that
[23:07] Speaker 2: helped me build this identity that I really cared about
[23:11] Speaker 2: where I was from in more ways than I understood,
[23:13] Speaker 2: because growing up there, I sometimes I did feel at
[23:16] Speaker 2: odds with my own community, felt kind of different, and
[23:21] Speaker 2: wasn't sure how I fit in. But by the time
[23:24] Speaker 2: I decided to come back, I knew that I couldn't
[23:26] Speaker 2: should make a difference and do something about it. And
[23:29] Speaker 2: things had gotten more and more difficult for the city's reputation.
[23:31] Speaker 2: There was a big national spread on America's ten dying
[23:36] Speaker 2: cities right around the time I ran for Malior. South
[23:38] Speaker 2: Bend was listed as one of them. Just to give
[23:40] Speaker 2: you a sense of it, our per capita income around
[23:43] Speaker 2: the time I ran for mayor it was about eighteen
[23:45] Speaker 2: thousand dollars per person per year, and we had whole
[23:48] Speaker 2: blocks on the west side of our city that had
[23:50] Speaker 2: more vacant houses than the houses of people living in
[23:53] Speaker 2: But a generation of people who thought, doesn't have to
[23:56] Speaker 2: be this way. And I think when you run for
[23:59] Speaker 2: office in your young in a lot of ways, your
[24:01] Speaker 2: face is your message just even the act of running
[24:05] Speaker 2: was kind of me saying, look, I believe in the city,
[24:06] Speaker 2: and I think all of us should. And what I
[24:09] Speaker 2: found was a lot of voters from an older generation
[24:12] Speaker 2: actually wanted to support that because they wanted to believe
[24:16] Speaker 2: it'd be the kind of city that their kids or
[24:18] Speaker 2: their grandkids would like stay in or move home. To
[24:22] Speaker 2: the way that I had it was kind of like
[24:23] Speaker 2: a seal of approval on our city having a lot
[24:26] Speaker 2: of value. And so I found that that we had
[24:29] Speaker 2: a real kind of intergenerational coalition coming together to make
[24:34] Speaker 2: that campaign happen. And then we won, which was just
[24:39] Speaker 2: the most amazing thing. I was in it to win it,
[24:41] Speaker 2: but I still couldn't believe on some level when we did.
[24:43] Speaker 2: And then, you know, then came the hard part. Then
[24:46] Speaker 2: I had to deliver and had to pull together as
[24:49] Speaker 2: many people as I could to change the story of
[24:52] Speaker 2: the city and the incredible things we did year by
[24:55] Speaker 2: year things started to change.
[24:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute, but here's
[24:59] Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. This segment is brought to
[25:03] Speaker 1: you by eBay. There's a different kind of care that
[25:06] Speaker 1: comes with letting something meaningful go, especially when it has
[25:10] Speaker 1: a story attached to it. When you pass something on,
[25:12] Speaker 1: you want to know it's being handled with respect. When
[25:15] Speaker 1: I was living in Chicago, I took part in my
[25:18] Speaker 1: first ever giant charity sale and I was able to
[25:22] Speaker 1: auction several items from my personal closet on eBay. Some
[25:27] Speaker 1: of them were truly one of a kind, pieces connected
[25:29] Speaker 1: to specific moments, TV sets, or from personal collections. They
[25:34] Speaker 1: were items that marked huge moments in my life and
[25:37] Speaker 1: in my career, and though I was ready to pass
[25:41] Speaker 1: them along, I also wanted to make sure they were
[25:43] Speaker 1: going to someone who would love them. And in passing
[25:47] Speaker 1: items along like that, authenticity really matters to the person
[25:51] Speaker 1: who's getting them. That's why I love eBay's authenticity guarantee.
[25:55] Speaker 1: They weren't just listing my items, they were verifying them,
[25:59] Speaker 1: making sure something was genuinely from where it claimed to be,
[26:02] Speaker 1: in this case, my closet, honoring the history behind it,
[26:06] Speaker 1: and giving someone else a chance to love it too,
[26:09] Speaker 1: all for a good cause. That level of trust made
[26:12] Speaker 1: all the difference for me and for the fans who
[26:15] Speaker 1: bought items on auction. It meant that buyers felt confident,
[26:19] Speaker 1: and it meant we were able to raise meaningful money
[26:21] Speaker 1: for a great cause. The items found new homes and
[26:24] Speaker 1: their stories continued on and now they're connected to something
[26:27] Speaker 1: bigger than just any one person. That's what eBay does best.
[26:32] Speaker 1: It's not just a marketplace. It's a place where value, integrity,
[26:36] Speaker 1: storytelling and impact meet. Find what you love, sell what
[26:40] Speaker 1: you don't eBay things people love. We talk about this
[26:48] Speaker 1: sort of similar expansiveness we grew up around as kids,
[26:53] Speaker 1: even though the subject matter was quite different. And it's
[26:55] Speaker 1: not lost on me that it's you and it's me
[26:57] Speaker 1: having this conversation together. And it's beautiful to me that
[27:02] Speaker 1: by twenty fifteen, when you were in the middle of
[27:06] Speaker 1: your reelection campaign, you came out and you did it
[27:10] Speaker 1: in the local newspaper in South Bend. And to know,
[27:14] Speaker 1: because you know again deep research nerd over here, to
[27:18] Speaker 1: know that you won that election with eighty percent of
[27:20] Speaker 1: the votes. It's like you think about how different it
[27:24] Speaker 1: was by the time you were in your early career
[27:28] Speaker 1: to how it was when you were a young boy,
[27:31] Speaker 1: Like what's that backdrop like? Because yes, I want to know,
[27:35] Speaker 1: how do you put a coalition together and what is
[27:37] Speaker 1: your first sort of plan of attack when you're fixing
[27:40] Speaker 1: a city. But also you're a person, You're not just
[27:45] Speaker 1: a leader. What was it like to take that personal.
[27:49] Speaker 1: It's funny, my brain's sort of arguing between two words.
[27:52] Speaker 1: On the one hand, I want to say it's a
[27:53] Speaker 1: personal gamble, and on the other I want to say,
[27:56] Speaker 1: it's really taking the reins. It's taking your own power,
[27:59] Speaker 1: it's choosing your own identity and your own way. It's
[28:02] Speaker 1: vulnerable and it's very strong.
[28:05] Speaker 2: One way to say it is that it was less
[28:08] Speaker 2: of a confidence that things would work out politically and
[28:13] Speaker 2: more of a confidence that it was going to be
[28:17] Speaker 2: worth it whether things worked out politically or not. So
[28:21] Speaker 2: I made the decision to come out largely as a
[28:25] Speaker 2: result of my deployment. So I was a sitting mayor
[28:27] Speaker 2: and I was a reservist, and I got deployed to Afghanistan.
[28:31] Speaker 2: Like any reservist or National Guard member, you can get
[28:33] Speaker 2: deployed and you leave your job behind, and in my
[28:35] Speaker 2: case that meant a deputy mayor filled in. I took
[28:37] Speaker 2: a leave of absence, went off to war as Lieutenant Pete,
[28:40] Speaker 2: and then came home. And in the course of that process,
[28:44] Speaker 2: realized that if I was going to come home, I
[28:46] Speaker 2: wasn't going to continue deeper and deeper into my thirties
[28:50] Speaker 2: with no idea what it was like to be in love.
[28:52] Speaker 2: I wanted to start dating and have a personal life,
[28:54] Speaker 2: and I did not see a way to do that
[28:56] Speaker 2: without coming out publicly, because I didn't want to be
[28:59] Speaker 2: tiptoeing round or trying to hide something. And what all
[29:05] Speaker 2: that meant was that it was time and if that
[29:08] Speaker 2: was going to be a problem for my careers, that
[29:11] Speaker 2: just was what it was. But yeah, I mean, look,
[29:14] Speaker 2: that was only five years after don't Ask, don't tell
[29:19] Speaker 2: being the law of the land, right, so it hadn't
[29:21] Speaker 2: been that many years since it would have been the
[29:22] Speaker 2: end of my military career as well as potentially my
[29:26] Speaker 2: political career. I don't know what would have happened if
[29:29] Speaker 2: I'd tried to get anywhere in Indiana politics in twenty
[29:32] Speaker 2: ten as an out candidate, But by twenty fifteen, I
[29:38] Speaker 2: knew it was at least worth taking a chance on
[29:40] Speaker 2: the community, that they would judge me by the job
[29:43] Speaker 2: I had done instead instead of anything else, and I
[29:49] Speaker 2: was at peace with the idea that either way, this
[29:52] Speaker 2: was what I had to do.
[29:53] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a big deal, though, and I think it's
[29:59] Speaker 1: worth saying because it's an observation that strikes me and
[30:03] Speaker 1: it's something that's worth our friends at home hearing. You know,
[30:07] Speaker 1: there is often a misnomer when you live a public
[30:11] Speaker 1: life that that's your reason for being, you know, the
[30:17] Speaker 1: access or the power or the office or the TV
[30:20] Speaker 1: show or whatever is your whole reason for doing everything.
[30:27] Speaker 1: And I think it's really important to remind people you
[30:30] Speaker 1: are so much more than what you do. And it
[30:34] Speaker 1: takes a hell of a lot of courage to be
[30:38] Speaker 1: who you are, to choose your personhood and your life
[30:45] Speaker 1: when it also can risk a big job that people
[30:49] Speaker 1: think might be the core of your life. And I
[30:54] Speaker 1: really I know it's been a long time, you know,
[30:57] Speaker 1: it's over a decade now, but I really just I
[31:01] Speaker 1: appreciate that you made that choice, and I know you
[31:03] Speaker 1: made it for you, but it has ripple effects for
[31:06] Speaker 1: all of us too.
[31:08] Speaker 2: Well, thanks for saying that. And yeah, the thing, the
[31:12] Speaker 2: thing I really wasn't banking on was how much I
[31:14] Speaker 2: would hear from people right away.
[31:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, wait, tell me about that, Like, what were the
[31:19] Speaker 1: d ms, and what were the what were the what
[31:21] Speaker 1: was the mail you got?
[31:22] Speaker 2: You know, it was extraordinary I mean, obviously not all
[31:25] Speaker 2: of it was great, you know, to tell me, but
[31:30] Speaker 2: but you know, hearing the number of people who said
[31:33] Speaker 2: it meant something to them. Some of them because they
[31:37] Speaker 2: had a relative that they were thinking about. Uh, some
[31:41] Speaker 2: of them because they were in the same boat. Some
[31:42] Speaker 2: people I had been deployed with, including one person who
[31:47] Speaker 2: was so one of my jobs was to drive people
[31:51] Speaker 2: or vehicles outside the wire and we didn't we didn't
[31:54] Speaker 2: have a lot of advanced military equipment in my units,
[31:59] Speaker 2: so I just land cruiser trying to get between Cobble
[32:02] Speaker 2: and Bogram, which is kind of a little road trip,
[32:04] Speaker 2: and it was kind of if I was trying to
[32:07] Speaker 2: get somebody to come on that mission with me, it
[32:10] Speaker 2: was usually as just as a volunteer, just somebody willing
[32:13] Speaker 2: to do it because they wanted to be helpful, not
[32:16] Speaker 2: because I could order them to do it. Because I
[32:17] Speaker 2: was in a very small unit, and one of the
[32:20] Speaker 2: people who was willing to come with me on some
[32:26] Speaker 2: pretty risky movements, who I knew a little bit but
[32:30] Speaker 2: not that well, turn out he was in the exact
[32:32] Speaker 2: same boat. And you know, having seen mine, who's reached
[32:34] Speaker 2: out just to share his own experience and so that
[32:38] Speaker 2: was a really, really incredible thing to see. But yeah,
[32:42] Speaker 2: I think to your bigger point, one of the occupational
[32:47] Speaker 2: hazards of having very meaningful work is that you wind
[32:51] Speaker 2: up drawing meaning from work. Your risk of drawing all
[32:55] Speaker 2: of your meaning from work, which would not be healthy.
[32:58] Speaker 2: It's a good thing to be invested in your work,
[33:00] Speaker 2: to care about your work, and I consider myself very
[33:03] Speaker 2: fortunate that the work I do is very meaningful. But
[33:08] Speaker 2: the other side of the coin is, especially in politics
[33:11] Speaker 2: and public service, in order to be fit for these
[33:14] Speaker 2: kinds of jobs, you have to know what's worth more
[33:17] Speaker 2: to you than keeping your job, because there may be
[33:20] Speaker 2: some moments where you're confronted with some decision and just
[33:23] Speaker 2: in order to deserve your job, you have to do
[33:25] Speaker 2: something that means that your political career might be a
[33:28] Speaker 2: risk or might even be over. And so I think
[33:31] Speaker 2: it is that much harder because it's a line of
[33:33] Speaker 2: work where people draw they're meeting their identity from what
[33:37] Speaker 2: they do, that you have to be in touch with
[33:39] Speaker 2: what's more important than that. I think this is about
[33:43] Speaker 2: to become a challenge for many, many more people if
[33:48] Speaker 2: artificial intelligence continues on the trajectory that a lot of
[33:51] Speaker 2: us are expecting. Then it may really disrupt a lot
[33:55] Speaker 2: of people's relationship with their work, or people who cansider
[34:00] Speaker 2: their work to be a big part of who they are.
[34:03] Speaker 2: And there are ways we can deal with that, I think,
[34:05] Speaker 2: making sure that we're all in touch with multiple sources
[34:09] Speaker 2: of belonging, so that if one of those sources of belonging,
[34:12] Speaker 2: which is our work, is changing, that other sources of
[34:17] Speaker 2: belonging like family or community, or service or faith or
[34:22] Speaker 2: I would say nationality, which is not the same thing
[34:24] Speaker 2: as nationalism, I want to be clear about that, but
[34:26] Speaker 2: a certain sense of belonging to an American project. That
[34:30] Speaker 2: all of these things could be a healthy ballast for
[34:33] Speaker 2: us right now, given what's maybe about to happen to
[34:36] Speaker 2: a lot of people, especially a lot of white collar
[34:39] Speaker 2: workers who are facing down this technological change.
[34:44] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a big shift, and it's interesting to think
[34:49] Speaker 1: about what this could mean, you know, in a really
[34:51] Speaker 1: seismic way. You know, I think back to grade school
[34:55] Speaker 1: and learning about the tectonic plates shifting. It feels like
[34:58] Speaker 1: that it's like a big enough shift going to reshape
[35:01] Speaker 1: the world. And at a time when we're figuring that
[35:06] Speaker 1: out and we're figuring out what service to the American project,
[35:11] Speaker 1: as you mentioned, looks like while we're fighting fascism, you know,
[35:16] Speaker 1: I know in your home, I know in my home,
[35:18] Speaker 1: we're also raising toddlers. We're trying to build a picture
[35:23] Speaker 1: of a future they can be excited about. And you know,
[35:30] Speaker 1: I know you got lots of reach outs from people
[35:33] Speaker 1: in your boat, people who appreciated your vulnerability. I know
[35:37] Speaker 1: you got on the apps. That's how you met Chaston,
[35:39] Speaker 1: which is like one of my favorite stories. You know,
[35:44] Speaker 1: how do you look at the last few years. Yes,
[35:47] Speaker 1: it's big politically. I mean, you were the Secretary of Transportation,
[35:50] Speaker 1: you were in the administration. You did go do your fellowship.
[35:53] Speaker 1: You're out here stumping for candidates to try to yank
[35:56] Speaker 1: democracy back, you know, from the jaws of terror. And
[36:01] Speaker 1: you've done what you said you wanted to do. If
[36:04] Speaker 1: you made it home, you found your person, you fell
[36:07] Speaker 1: in love, you have two babies. How do you balance that?
[36:12] Speaker 1: How do you keep your home and your kiddos and
[36:17] Speaker 1: your spouse the kind of center of it when the
[36:20] Speaker 1: world is in this really big moment of a people.
[36:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really hard because I think that my work,
[36:27] Speaker 2: you know, My political work requires me to be on
[36:31] Speaker 2: the road a lot. That's how I make myself useful.
[36:34] Speaker 2: I go out and I campaign for candidates I believe in,
[36:37] Speaker 2: and I speak out for causes that I believe in,
[36:39] Speaker 2: and I do a lot of media work too, And
[36:41] Speaker 2: it pulls me from home, and it feels like it's
[36:44] Speaker 2: always intention. And of course, you don't have to be
[36:47] Speaker 2: in politics to be living this. Millions of Americans are
[36:49] Speaker 2: living this tension between what you do for work and
[36:53] Speaker 2: the people you care about the most and wanting to
[36:55] Speaker 2: spend time with them. The other way to look at it, though,
[36:59] Speaker 2: of course, is that they're a big part of the
[37:01] Speaker 2: reason why I do this. And that's one of the
[37:03] Speaker 2: biggest things that's changed in my motivations around politics and
[37:08] Speaker 2: public life compared to before we got the incredible phone
[37:12] Speaker 2: call that changed our lives. Yeah, and I know every
[37:18] Speaker 2: day that whether we succeed or fail in this moment
[37:22] Speaker 2: really shapes the world they're going to live in. They
[37:24] Speaker 2: don't get a vote, they don't get a voice, they
[37:26] Speaker 2: don't even know what's happening yet. Therefore, and yet lots
[37:29] Speaker 2: of decisions that are being made right now in the
[37:31] Speaker 2: middle of this decade are going to decide by the
[37:34] Speaker 2: time they are old enough to ask whether we did
[37:37] Speaker 2: right by them or whether we failed them. And so
[37:42] Speaker 2: I know that part of my responsibility to them is
[37:44] Speaker 2: to try to be present and be a good father
[37:46] Speaker 2: and be around as much as I can. But another
[37:49] Speaker 2: part of my responsibility to them is to be out
[37:51] Speaker 2: in the world, using the tools that I have to
[37:56] Speaker 2: try to make it better for them, so that when
[37:57] Speaker 2: I am at the middle of this century, hopefully kicking
[38:00] Speaker 2: up my heels getting ready to retire, and they're entering
[38:06] Speaker 2: the thick of it in terms of their careers, that
[38:09] Speaker 2: I can look them in the eye and know that
[38:11] Speaker 2: we did right by them to make sure that this
[38:14] Speaker 2: is a country that had more rights and freedoms than before,
[38:17] Speaker 2: which every generation up until now has been able to say.
[38:21] Speaker 2: But if we get it wrong, then you know, we
[38:23] Speaker 2: just saw the high water mark of rights and freedoms
[38:25] Speaker 2: in this country before they started eroding. I mean, that's
[38:29] Speaker 2: it really is as serious as that in terms of
[38:32] Speaker 2: what the twenty twenties will be remembered for, and on
[38:35] Speaker 2: down the list of things we care about, whether there's
[38:37] Speaker 2: clean air and water for them, whether they can live
[38:40] Speaker 2: in the same communities that I had access to, or
[38:43] Speaker 2: whether some of them have been damaged or made unaffordable
[38:47] Speaker 2: or unlivable because of what's going on in the climate
[38:49] Speaker 2: or other problems that we've created for ourselves in these
[38:54] Speaker 2: last few decades. I mean, this is really and of
[38:56] Speaker 2: course deciding whether AI is going to be something that
[39:00] Speaker 2: unfolds in a way that empowers people, or whether it
[39:02] Speaker 2: leads to even more extreme concentrations of power in this country.
[39:07] Speaker 2: You know, by the time they're adults, I think the
[39:12] Speaker 2: decisions we make now as a country will have shaped
[39:16] Speaker 2: what it's like for them.
[39:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute after a
[39:20] Speaker 1: few words from our favorite sponsors. I'm sure you feel this.
[39:30] Speaker 1: I've always been the person who's like, tell me where
[39:32] Speaker 1: you need me to be, tiny stump speech at a
[39:37] Speaker 1: bar in Sherman Oaks. You need me on stage with
[39:39] Speaker 1: the President, like you need me on the border in
[39:42] Speaker 1: Tijuana or Texas. I'm there, Like where can I be helpful?
[39:47] Speaker 1: And it's interesting to fast forward and be in a
[39:50] Speaker 1: position where I really want to be at home. I'd
[39:53] Speaker 1: rather be at home than anywhere, And sometimes I got
[39:58] Speaker 1: to leave to love them the best way I know
[40:00] Speaker 1: how Yeah, because if we lose it, we might never
[40:06] Speaker 1: get it back. You know, you look at countries around
[40:08] Speaker 1: the world that have been through this stuff, and you go,
[40:11] Speaker 1: we can't. I don't want to risk it for me
[40:14] Speaker 1: at forty three, I sure as hell don't want to
[40:17] Speaker 1: risk it for toddlers.
[40:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, they're counting on us.
[40:21] Speaker 1: Well, I know you said they're getting into lego, which
[40:25] Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with. What are some of your favorite things
[40:29] Speaker 1: to do as a family.
[40:32] Speaker 2: Oh, you know, I mean none of it's really exotic
[40:37] Speaker 2: or you know, would come as much of as as
[40:40] Speaker 2: a surprise. You know. Fridays we like to get pizza
[40:45] Speaker 2: and watch a movie together and they, you know, they
[40:48] Speaker 2: snuggle in their blankets and we watch something. I gotta say,
[40:51] Speaker 2: I'm glad the quality of kids movies has improved from
[40:55] Speaker 2: a parent perspective, I think, compared to what my parents
[40:57] Speaker 2: might have had to work when I was a kid. Totally,
[41:02] Speaker 2: because you know, I don't mind. Okay, there's only so
[41:04] Speaker 2: many times you can watch Frozen, but like, you know,
[41:07] Speaker 2: the music is good. Like I don't mind watching some
[41:09] Speaker 2: of these movies ten or twenty times. Thirty is pushing it.
[41:11] Speaker 2: But you know, we do stuff like that. We take
[41:14] Speaker 2: them sledding in the winter. We you know, we take
[41:17] Speaker 2: them swimming as much as we can in the summer.
[41:20] Speaker 2: It's just like it's basic stuff, right, It's not like
[41:23] Speaker 2: exotic or complicated. It's just being around for the chaos.
[41:27] Speaker 2: And yeah, when we're home, I'm thrilled at the lego
[41:30] Speaker 2: phases upon us. We're you know, chasting. My husband is
[41:35] Speaker 2: better than I am about organizing things like setting them
[41:38] Speaker 2: up with like paints and like crafts and stuff. I
[41:42] Speaker 2: struggle with it because they're still at the age where
[41:44] Speaker 2: like you set up all this stuff so they can
[41:45] Speaker 2: paint or something, there's chaos, you're cleaning up paint and like,
[41:48] Speaker 2: you know, twenty minutes into it, they're like ready for it. Yeah,
[41:53] Speaker 2: you know puzzles. I never realized how much becoming good
[41:57] Speaker 2: at puzzles when you're first figuring it out is like
[42:00] Speaker 2: an emotional thing. It's not just it's not just an
[42:04] Speaker 2: intellectual thing, right. So much of it is keeping them
[42:06] Speaker 2: from getting frustrated and giving up. Uh, and and you know,
[42:10] Speaker 2: walking them through that process, and then it's so hard
[42:12] Speaker 2: not to just pick up the puzzle piece and just
[42:14] Speaker 2: do it for them, right, right, But you know, watching
[42:17] Speaker 2: their little mind figure this, yeah, exactly, Yeah, watching them
[42:21] Speaker 2: figure that out, and you know, reading to them. Luckily,
[42:24] Speaker 2: they love they love reading. They can't read, but they
[42:27] Speaker 2: love reading and they love uh being read to and
[42:33] Speaker 2: even just paging through books. And yeah, and as you know,
[42:38] Speaker 2: as I tell it, it sounds idyllic, it's also hard
[42:40] Speaker 2: because just the attention spans and the chaos, and the
[42:43] Speaker 2: two of them as twins kind of being in each
[42:45] Speaker 2: other's face all the time makes it, you know, real work,
[42:48] Speaker 2: even when you're doing the fun stuff. But there's so
[42:52] Speaker 2: much fun mixed.
[42:52] Speaker 1: In with it. It's so great. Hey, and I got it.
[42:55] Speaker 1: I have to give you props. We did it too.
[42:57] Speaker 1: You survived your first trip to Disneyland. Yes, ate it
[43:00] Speaker 1: to the other side. You did the magic. It's like
[43:03] Speaker 1: it was great.
[43:04] Speaker 2: You know, we had a work trip. I had a
[43:05] Speaker 2: work trip in the LA area, and I was already
[43:10] Speaker 2: in California and rather than taking a red eye and
[43:12] Speaker 2: turning right around chest and figured it might be worth
[43:15] Speaker 2: trying to have the kids come out, and my mother
[43:19] Speaker 2: in law came to and I got to tell you,
[43:21] Speaker 2: I heard so many things about Disneyland from from the
[43:24] Speaker 2: draggled parents that I was ready to hate it. I
[43:27] Speaker 2: was ready to be realized whole about the whole thing.
[43:30] Speaker 2: But as soon as we got there, I just saw
[43:32] Speaker 2: the magic of it, like the effect it had on them,
[43:34] Speaker 2: the effect it had on me. Like I felt coming
[43:37] Speaker 2: out of it. I almost felt like I was on
[43:38] Speaker 2: this kind of high. I can't explain it, but I
[43:40] Speaker 2: because you know, halfway through the second day I had
[43:43] Speaker 2: to they kept hanging out in the park and I
[43:45] Speaker 2: had to switch into a suit and go do my
[43:48] Speaker 2: grown up stuff, and I found it hard to kind
[43:50] Speaker 2: of get my brain out of the out of the
[43:52] Speaker 2: kind of zone it was in riding on these rides,
[43:55] Speaker 2: and and just yeah, seeing the just the pure joy
[44:02] Speaker 2: that they had was was so fun.
[44:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely have the realization. I sort of looked
[44:07] Speaker 1: around and went, oh, I I I didn't know this
[44:10] Speaker 1: about myself. I think I'm a Disney adult. I was
[44:14] Speaker 1: very ready to like Scrooge mcduckett, and it turns out
[44:17] Speaker 1: I was.
[44:17] Speaker 2: I was all in, No, it really is special. Some
[44:23] Speaker 2: of those rides I'd be happy to do so fun.
[44:26] Speaker 1: Oh great, at some point we'll have to get all
[44:28] Speaker 1: the kiddos. I obviously have a million more questions for you.
[44:33] Speaker 1: We'll have to do a follow up at some point.
[44:34] Speaker 1: You have to be on stage in Indiana, so I'm
[44:37] Speaker 1: gonna have to skip to the end and ask you
[44:39] Speaker 1: my favorite question and we'll pick it back up another time.
[44:44] Speaker 1: Thank you for today. I'm I'm curious. You know. It's
[44:48] Speaker 1: so nice to, of course know you're in the fight
[44:51] Speaker 1: with us politically, and it's also nice to just hang
[44:55] Speaker 1: out with Pete like not not to make you list
[44:59] Speaker 1: of of policy and do all the things, but I
[45:02] Speaker 1: know the span of all of it is alive in you.
[45:06] Speaker 1: And when you look out from this day in February
[45:10] Speaker 1: and you think about what's ahead, it could be a
[45:14] Speaker 1: mix of all those things you know, political, personal, or
[45:17] Speaker 1: it might just be one specific bug in your ear.
[45:21] Speaker 1: But what really feels like you're work in progress right now?
[45:26] Speaker 2: I guess my work in progress is helping put together
[45:29] Speaker 2: the coalition that is going to change the trajectory of
[45:32] Speaker 2: our country so that it's really living up to its
[45:37] Speaker 2: ideals by the time my kids are old enough to
[45:39] Speaker 2: take over the work whenever they decide the work means
[45:42] Speaker 2: to them. So it's all kind of wrapped up in
[45:45] Speaker 2: one but it feels like the work of a lifetime,
[45:48] Speaker 2: and I understand and accept that it's going to take
[45:51] Speaker 2: a very, very long time to deliver on some of this.
[45:54] Speaker 1: Yeah. I always say to people political engagement. It's not quick,
[46:00] Speaker 1: it's not sexy, but I do think it's romantic because
[46:03] Speaker 1: it's kind of like a marriage. You're investing in this
[46:06] Speaker 1: thing for your life if you're lucky, and if you're lucky,
[46:10] Speaker 1: you get to the end and you've succeeded at building
[46:13] Speaker 1: something really special.
[46:15] Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean one are they in the kind of
[46:17] Speaker 2: books about parenting and couples they talk about secure attachment, right, like, Yeah,
[46:22] Speaker 2: you know, I want to feel good about the secure
[46:26] Speaker 2: attachment I have to our country as well. Yeah, yeah,
[46:31] Speaker 2: there is something, there is something in common there.
[46:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, a secure attachment to the American experiment sounds like
[46:37] Speaker 1: a really nice goal for us. Very cool. Well, thank
[46:42] Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today. It's been an
[46:44] Speaker 1: absolute delight. And yes, and not for the podcast, but
[46:50] Speaker 1: you know, my best friend is a native Detroiter, so
[46:54] Speaker 1: much like, yeah, much like the way you feel about
[46:56] Speaker 1: South Bend. It's like, that's the way I feel about Detroit.
[47:00] Speaker 1: People are always like, what are you doing? Here, and
[47:01] Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I claim I claim this place for
[47:03] Speaker 1: twenty years now, so I'm like a hardcore Michigander. So
[47:07] Speaker 1: we have to do something up in Michigan at some point.
[47:11] Speaker 2: Yeah. We definitely took notes from the Detroit Renaissance and
[47:13] Speaker 2: the way people just, yeah, militantly identify with that. That. Yeah,
[47:19] Speaker 2: I really admire the spirit of what's going on there.
[47:22] Speaker 1: Oh, I'm so excited. I'll be there. I'll be in Detroit.
[47:25] Speaker 1: I think it's like the seventeenth to nineteenth of March.
[47:28] Speaker 1: So if we happen to be in the same state,
[47:30] Speaker 1: let's make sure we get our people together, wonderful, our
[47:33] Speaker 1: husbands and wives. It'll be nice there we go.
[47:37] Speaker 2: Oh good, well, I hope we get the chance and
[47:38] Speaker 2: me too. We're talking about you in the meantime.
[47:40] Speaker 1: Great, hang you have fun out there today.
[47:42] Speaker 2: Thanks

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