# Insane Sports Gambling Stories on Mike Tyson, Mickelson, Ohtani, Mayweather, The Mob

An episode of [The Colin Cowherd Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1551365571), 17 Feb 2026, 48 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/arttrk.com/p/D5CA5/pscrb.fm/rss/p/prfx.byspotify.com/e/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/4013d28e-5f67-4885-bff1-ae3300346830/79d2f01b-6d5a-404e-8627-b3f4017e3585/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=e829cf60-fc06-4d61-8691-ae330034683e

Colin Cowherd is joined by Art Manteris, a veteran bookmaker, to discuss sports gambling. They dive into some of the wildest sports gambling stories ever told — from massive celebrity bets to shocking moments involving Mike Tyson, Phil Mickelson, Shohei Ohtani, and Floyd Mayweather Jr. — plus unbelievable stories tied to organized crime and the Vegas betting world. How big were the bets? Who really beat the house? And what actually happens behind the scenes when millions are on the line? This conversation pulls back the curtain on high-stakes wagers, celebrity gambling rumors, sportsbook strategy, and the reality of how Las Vegas operates. If you’re into sports betting, Vegas history, or jaw-dropping gambling stories, this episode is for you. Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Volume See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The volume.
[0:09] Speaker 2: Well, I just finished it. I was so excited. I
[0:13] Speaker 2: just flew from Naples back to Chicago and I read it.
[0:16] Speaker 2: It's called The Bookie Inside the High Stakes World of
[0:20] Speaker 2: Sports Betting, a legendary bookmaker's tale of gangsters, celebrities and
[0:25] Speaker 2: the art of the game. All the proceeds from the
[0:28] Speaker 2: book you are going to Art's two favorite charities, World
[0:32] Speaker 2: Wildlife Fund and Blood Cancer United. This is fun for
[0:37] Speaker 2: me because, as many of you know, if you've listened
[0:41] Speaker 2: to me for years, I've talked a great length about
[0:44] Speaker 2: my Las Vegas being my first job out of college. Well,
[0:47] Speaker 2: one of the people that was at the center of
[0:50] Speaker 2: it and around it, one of the most recognizable people
[0:53] Speaker 2: who was building his own career was Art Man Terras,
[0:57] Speaker 2: who started at Caesar's, moved to the Hilton, where I
[1:02] Speaker 2: spent almost every Saturday and Sunday as a young sportscaster.
[1:09] Speaker 2: So let's start with that. There's so many things to
[1:11] Speaker 2: get to, and I want to take this because a
[1:13] Speaker 2: lot of this stuff I want you to explain to
[1:15] Speaker 2: the audience. Some of this stuff I knew I am
[1:18] Speaker 2: briefly in the book, and yes, I did introduce you
[1:21] Speaker 2: to your wife Sue beautiful, elegant, smart, all the great things,
[1:25] Speaker 2: and I hope she's doing well.
[1:28] Speaker 3: I know she is.
[1:29] Speaker 2: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful kids, absolutely stunning beautiful kids. So when
[1:36] Speaker 2: you think of Caesar's Palace, I'm a guy from a
[1:38] Speaker 2: small town. You go to Vegas, you think Caesar's Palace.
[1:42] Speaker 2: You know, it's Harry Gluck, it's big money. It's like
[1:45] Speaker 2: just Steve Wynn is becoming this big architect in Vegas
[1:50] Speaker 2: and you Caesar says, Art, get in here and organize
[1:54] Speaker 2: our sports book. And I'm reading your stories. It was
[1:59] Speaker 2: a mess, and it's amazing that this industry has grown
[2:04] Speaker 2: so much. Take the audience to when you went into
[2:06] Speaker 2: Caesars the back room to organize their sportsbook and what
[2:10] Speaker 2: you saw.
[2:12] Speaker 1: Well, you're right that you know, in the early days
[2:16] Speaker 1: of the sportsbook industry that I joined in nineteen eighty,
[2:20] Speaker 1: it was far different from the industry today, and there
[2:23] Speaker 1: wasn't a whole lot of procedures and policies in place,
[2:27] Speaker 1: and some of the sports books were pretty chaotic.
[2:30] Speaker 3: Now, in fairness to some of the other.
[2:32] Speaker 1: Executives at Caesars, they were hoping to do and wanting
[2:35] Speaker 1: to do the same things out that I did. And
[2:38] Speaker 1: certainly the finance and audit people were a big help.
[2:42] Speaker 1: And once they knew that they had somebody that wanted
[2:45] Speaker 1: to clean things up, wanted things to be run legitimately
[2:48] Speaker 1: and properly and within the Gaming Control Board standards, compliance standards,
[2:53] Speaker 1: they were very very helpful also.
[2:56] Speaker 3: But yes, it was chaotic in those days.
[2:58] Speaker 1: There was very few house rules, very few standards of
[3:05] Speaker 1: operational standards, and I think I was able to establish
[3:10] Speaker 1: a lot of those policies that are still in place
[3:13] Speaker 1: today in a lot of casinos.
[3:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, you and Chuck Esposito were the two guys I
[3:18] Speaker 2: always trusted. I always thought you guys had kind of
[3:21] Speaker 2: an everyman quality. And I don't think people understand this.
[3:25] Speaker 2: There were people that I knew, like lem Banker. I
[3:28] Speaker 2: didn't know Billy Walter's at the time, and Lamb could
[3:30] Speaker 2: be very manipulative, rest in peace and very much as showman.
[3:34] Speaker 2: And you know, lim wanted what Limb wanted. But when
[3:37] Speaker 2: you started in this business, you know, I'm very naive.
[3:41] Speaker 2: You know, I just figured, you know, the big guys
[3:43] Speaker 2: had phone accounts, but they weren't working the edges. It
[3:47] Speaker 2: was a big operation, but you had real run ins
[3:51] Speaker 2: with Billy Walter or a lem banker. And let's talk
[3:53] Speaker 2: about the most famous of the gamblers, Billy Walter. And
[3:57] Speaker 2: how art you listen? You're paid by the Hilton or Caesars.
[4:03] Speaker 2: This is a legitimate operation. Those guys didn't want to
[4:06] Speaker 2: play by your rules.
[4:09] Speaker 3: Well, you know, I respect the folks that you're mentioning.
[4:13] Speaker 1: Yeah, I certainly respect their abilities as handicappers. They were
[4:18] Speaker 1: both uh, top notch and I and I respect that,
[4:20] Speaker 1: but they were adversaries.
[4:23] Speaker 3: You know.
[4:23] Speaker 1: They weren't friends and partners or colleagues. They were adversaries,
[4:28] Speaker 1: and and and and certainly, uh that left a real
[4:33] Speaker 1: divide and and so no, I didn't get along real
[4:36] Speaker 1: well with with.
[4:37] Speaker 3: Certain high end sophisticated players.
[4:41] Speaker 1: Uh.
[4:41] Speaker 3: You know, they threatened my bottom line.
[4:43] Speaker 1: And you know, and I said to to to a
[4:45] Speaker 1: few people in recent weeks that you know, you know,
[4:48] Speaker 1: you know, maintaining compliance, maintaining the gambling license of a
[4:53] Speaker 1: company I always viewed as my top priority. Second was
[4:56] Speaker 1: guest service for everyone, and and and third was revenue.
[5:01] Speaker 1: But that nevertheless the bottom line in all of that. Yeah,
[5:05] Speaker 1: you know, guest service is great, you know, having great
[5:10] Speaker 1: television screens and audio systems and computer systems that function properly.
[5:16] Speaker 1: That's all an important part of the business. But making
[5:20] Speaker 1: money is still the bottom line, and it's still after
[5:23] Speaker 1: all a said and done, and it's still about making money.
[5:26] Speaker 1: And there were certain people they wanted mine and I
[5:28] Speaker 1: wanted theirs, and that doesn't always lead to the most
[5:32] Speaker 1: comfortable relationships.
[5:34] Speaker 2: So I didn't know what runners were until I met
[5:37] Speaker 2: people like you or Chuck Esposito, And you know, I'd
[5:40] Speaker 2: sit down and be asking a million questions because I
[5:42] Speaker 2: was curious about the industry and I always love betting football,
[5:46] Speaker 2: and you had to battle runners. A runner is somebody
[5:48] Speaker 2: who is making bets for a whale, making bets for
[5:51] Speaker 2: a billy, and you know, he just can't walk in.
[5:54] Speaker 2: He can get banned or you're gonna have limits on him.
[5:57] Speaker 2: And his way around that is I'm gonna have thirty
[5:59] Speaker 2: guys is spread them around the city. Could you tell,
[6:03] Speaker 2: because you know you had your guys, your tellers, could
[6:06] Speaker 2: you tell that's a runner that's not. I mean, how
[6:09] Speaker 2: difficult was that for you? That game of cat and mouse?
[6:12] Speaker 3: Well, it was difficult.
[6:13] Speaker 1: And in Nevada there's there are regulations prohibiting what's called
[6:17] Speaker 1: messenger betters, and that you know, slang term is runners,
[6:21] Speaker 1: of course, but that but they are the folks that
[6:24] Speaker 1: are paid to wager on behalf of others. And by
[6:27] Speaker 1: the way, just coincidentally, in recent months, New Jersey has
[6:31] Speaker 1: passed laws banning proxy wagering as it called in there
[6:35] Speaker 1: as it's called in their regulations, and that that prohibits
[6:38] Speaker 1: people from using other people's phone accounts. And that's you know,
[6:42] Speaker 1: very very similar in result and answer to your question.
[6:47] Speaker 1: Sometimes not always, but sometimes you know, you know, I mean,
[6:50] Speaker 1: if there would be certain tip offs if you believed
[6:53] Speaker 1: somebody was runner, and and and certainly if you with
[6:56] Speaker 1: today's technology, you could see point spread movement around the industry.
[7:01] Speaker 1: And and you know, my long standing statement to my
[7:05] Speaker 1: staff was, well, either this guy has ESP or he's
[7:10] Speaker 1: working with somebody else, because yeah, if the line's changing
[7:14] Speaker 1: across the industry simultaneously as somebody's playing, that's a pretty
[7:18] Speaker 1: fair indication of where the source of those funds might
[7:22] Speaker 1: be coming from. But there's no tried and true standard
[7:26] Speaker 1: answer that gives me or anyone else the ability to
[7:30] Speaker 1: determine that definitively. It's a pretty tough question to answer,
[7:33] Speaker 1: but there are indications.
[7:34] Speaker 3: And I always try.
[7:37] Speaker 1: I always tried to err on the side of caution
[7:40] Speaker 1: rather than the side of leniency.
[7:43] Speaker 2: You know, there's a story when I was a kid
[7:45] Speaker 2: growing up, the most well known NBA official was Earl Strom.
[7:48] Speaker 2: He was very boisterous. He was very very much theater
[7:52] Speaker 2: and charismatic. And there's a story in your book about
[7:56] Speaker 2: and this just goes to show you the lengths. You
[7:59] Speaker 2: didn't have the Internet back then. I mean it was
[8:01] Speaker 2: basically you tell a story about to get to figure
[8:06] Speaker 2: out because gamblers felt like, oh, he has a tendency
[8:12] Speaker 2: to blank as a ref or do this. It's not rigged,
[8:15] Speaker 2: it's not throwing a game. But referees are human, they
[8:18] Speaker 2: have tendencies. For years and years, there were certain officials
[8:21] Speaker 2: that just were willing to give the road team, maybe
[8:25] Speaker 2: Steve Javvy. For years, I always was told that, hey,
[8:29] Speaker 2: he'll go into a harsh arena, he'll give the road
[8:31] Speaker 2: team the call. He won't be intimidated like maybe young
[8:34] Speaker 2: refs or college refs. But tell the Earl Strong story
[8:37] Speaker 2: because I thought that was fascinating.
[8:40] Speaker 1: Well, there was a very sophisticated gambler who I was
[8:44] Speaker 1: friendly with, very friendly with. I actually played softball together.
[8:47] Speaker 1: He was a terrific slow pitch softball pitcher and one
[8:51] Speaker 1: of those old timers that really knew the game, and
[8:54] Speaker 1: we were very friendly. I didn't realize the extent of
[8:58] Speaker 1: his sophistication as a sports better because again, he wasn't
[9:02] Speaker 1: making most of his bets in person. Others were, so
[9:04] Speaker 1: I didn't put it put two and two together for
[9:07] Speaker 1: for for quite some time. But later he did tell
[9:11] Speaker 1: tell me the story of how he would track earl
[9:15] Speaker 1: Strom because he believed that he had strong tendencies and
[9:18] Speaker 1: and and he believed that his officiating could could could
[9:22] Speaker 1: dramatically affect NBA totals, and and he you know, his
[9:26] Speaker 1: his total bets were were based in large part on
[9:29] Speaker 1: where earl Strom was going to be officiating, and and
[9:32] Speaker 1: and as you said, there was no internet back then, so.
[9:35] Speaker 2: He was officiating the games.
[9:37] Speaker 1: Well, he had somebody following earl Strom to determine what
[9:40] Speaker 1: what city he was flying to.
[9:43] Speaker 3: That just cracks me up.
[9:45] Speaker 2: Basically, earl Strom had spies Earl's in Detroit tonight bet the.
[9:49] Speaker 3: Over, Yes, that's that's right.
[9:53] Speaker 2: So what happens in your career. I fell in love
[9:57] Speaker 2: with boxing when I moved to Vegas, and there there
[10:00] Speaker 2: are times it could be a PAQIAW. Mayweather fight or
[10:03] Speaker 2: a Buster Douglas Tyson fight where by proxy you have
[10:08] Speaker 2: information that is kind of viewed as inside information. What
[10:13] Speaker 2: do you do when you know something maybe you shouldn't know,
[10:17] Speaker 2: You stumble on it, or you're so connected art you
[10:21] Speaker 2: just find things out right in those instances, if you
[10:25] Speaker 2: could take the audience through one or two of those
[10:27] Speaker 2: where that is that a dilemma for you?
[10:30] Speaker 3: It absolutely is a dilemma.
[10:32] Speaker 1: And you know, for many years, particularly after you left,
[10:36] Speaker 1: you left Las Vegas, I got real involved in boxing.
[10:39] Speaker 1: I was very involved in signing big fights and operating
[10:43] Speaker 1: the fights and being part of the publicity tours for
[10:46] Speaker 1: various big fights.
[10:48] Speaker 3: And I never saw, I never thought anything about it.
[10:51] Speaker 3: It was just part of my job.
[10:52] Speaker 1: And I love doing I love being around boxing, I
[10:55] Speaker 1: love running sports books.
[10:57] Speaker 3: Yeah, and so so you know, it didn't it didn't
[11:02] Speaker 3: bother me.
[11:02] Speaker 1: I didn't feel any any any great conflict, uh until
[11:06] Speaker 1: the until the Mayweather pack yea fight, And in that fight,
[11:09] Speaker 1: I did, uh find out some very very important inside
[11:13] Speaker 1: information and and and it left me in a real dilemma.
[11:16] Speaker 3: Uh.
[11:17] Speaker 1: Before the fight, I was told straight up that pack
[11:20] Speaker 1: Yell was hurt and could not win the fight. And
[11:23] Speaker 1: and and and and when you watch the fight, that's
[11:25] Speaker 1: exactly what happened. That he was one armed fighter that night.
[11:30] Speaker 1: Uh he immediately had shoulder surgery shortly after the fight.
[11:34] Speaker 3: And and and and and and it.
[11:36] Speaker 1: Became crystal clear to me that there must be a
[11:39] Speaker 1: very clear separation between participation in sports, including on the
[11:44] Speaker 1: promotional end, and and and gambling on sports and and
[11:48] Speaker 1: and I've preached that message ever since. And and I
[11:51] Speaker 1: did work for the NBA as a consultant for many
[11:54] Speaker 1: has and of course they loved that message, uh, as
[11:56] Speaker 1: did other as did the other leagues, you know, because
[11:59] Speaker 1: I would be at various conferences and speaking engagements and
[12:04] Speaker 1: and and and you know, I felt very u a
[12:06] Speaker 1: great deal of camaraderie, camaraderie with the leagues on on
[12:11] Speaker 1: that issue. That that's why calling the the the the
[12:15] Speaker 1: embracing of gambling now by the leagues.
[12:18] Speaker 3: That have been surprising to me, you know.
[12:20] Speaker 1: I mean I knew that there was going to be
[12:21] Speaker 1: some cooperation data sharing, for example, with for in play
[12:26] Speaker 1: wagering UH videos signals into casinos and sports books, of course,
[12:31] Speaker 1: is another form of cooperation. And I that that I
[12:34] Speaker 1: certainly expected. But the but the the the amount of
[12:39] Speaker 1: UH official sponsorships and official partnerships with the gambling companies
[12:43] Speaker 1: that that has UH that has really UH surprised me,
[12:48] Speaker 1: and and and and and I think that that message
[12:51] Speaker 1: can't stand. It's not going to stay there forever because
[12:54] Speaker 1: there's going to be pushed back inevitably.
[12:56] Speaker 3: And you know, and I look around the world, the
[12:59] Speaker 3: world of sports game. You know, you look to Europe, where.
[13:02] Speaker 1: Sports gambling has been legal now for something like twenty
[13:06] Speaker 1: five years or thirty years, and sportsbook advertising is not
[13:11] Speaker 1: lead and there's great pushback now in the UK and
[13:15] Speaker 1: Ireland and the Netherlands, in Germany and elsewhere around the world.
[13:20] Speaker 1: The US, of course, is still going one hundred miles
[13:22] Speaker 1: an hour the opposite direction. And you know, I think
[13:26] Speaker 1: that's a terribly mixed message that the leagues are trying
[13:30] Speaker 1: to send right now. You know, they tell their players
[13:35] Speaker 1: and their staffs, the coaches and even office personnel, how
[13:39] Speaker 1: they must stay away from gambling, how evil gambling is,
[13:44] Speaker 1: and yet they're signing these partnership agreements and in some
[13:48] Speaker 1: cases even wearing gambling company logos on the shirts on
[13:52] Speaker 1: their shirts.
[13:53] Speaker 3: So I think it's confusing to a lot of young
[13:55] Speaker 3: athletes and.
[13:58] Speaker 1: It's going to continue to cause problems until there is
[14:01] Speaker 1: a day of reckoning. And yeah, I hope that the
[14:04] Speaker 1: leagues address this issue themselves rather than have it imposed
[14:09] Speaker 1: upon them.
[14:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, and let's you know, prop bets are are something
[14:13] Speaker 2: I think that that worry people. I've said before, I
[14:17] Speaker 2: worry about not not betting the spread as much because
[14:21] Speaker 2: games are monitored. You always knew and you predicted this,
[14:25] Speaker 2: and you told the NBA when you sat down with
[14:27] Speaker 2: David Stern watched the officials. It's not going to be
[14:30] Speaker 2: about the players. It's going to be college kids because
[14:33] Speaker 2: they don't have any money, and it's going to be officials.
[14:36] Speaker 2: And so what's interesting is that Tim donneghey situation happened,
[14:40] Speaker 2: and it was I will say this, and I've talked
[14:43] Speaker 2: to Tim Donicky. It was, let let's let's take it back.
[14:47] Speaker 2: Because I for years argued Vegas is the ally of
[14:51] Speaker 2: the pro leagues. They don't want it. Listen, the margins
[14:54] Speaker 2: are thin on this stuff. The last thing they want
[14:58] Speaker 2: is for there to be ill ego gambling. They'll tell
[15:01] Speaker 2: the leagues, we're getting burned on this game, or we're
[15:04] Speaker 2: getting burned by this official. Because so let's go back
[15:06] Speaker 2: to the Tim Donoghe situation where he wasn't necessarily changing outcomes,
[15:12] Speaker 2: he was changing overs and unders and take the audience back,
[15:16] Speaker 2: because I want to get them into your book that
[15:18] Speaker 2: were you shocked by Doneghie.
[15:21] Speaker 3: I was caught off guard.
[15:23] Speaker 1: I did not see that it was happening, and I
[15:26] Speaker 1: have great regret about that, and I talk about that
[15:28] Speaker 1: in the book. I wish I had caught it, and
[15:32] Speaker 1: it would have been very difficult to see though, because
[15:35] Speaker 1: we did not get bet on those games or those totals,
[15:39] Speaker 1: So there was no unusual money flooding into the Las
[15:44] Speaker 1: Vegas casinos like there was, for example, in the Arizona
[15:47] Speaker 1: State point shaving scandal of the mid nineties, which.
[15:50] Speaker 3: Was easy to see.
[15:51] Speaker 1: And I was so proud of the industry for seeing
[15:55] Speaker 1: it doing the right thing, notifying the leagues, notifying UH
[16:00] Speaker 1: or in that case, the NCAA, and and of course
[16:03] Speaker 1: the Nevada Gaming Control Board, having everything documented, a videotaped,
[16:08] Speaker 1: et cetera. We do handle the situation perfect perfectly. So
[16:11] Speaker 1: I took great pride in that, and I took that
[16:13] Speaker 1: part of my job seriously monitoring for those types of improprieties.
[16:20] Speaker 1: The Donaghy scandal, though, did was very upsetting to me,
[16:23] Speaker 1: you know, and seeing David Stern before the media, uh
[16:28] Speaker 1: when that was first reported was heartbreaking. He was, you know,
[16:32] Speaker 1: he was genuinely crushed hurt by what had happened that
[16:34] Speaker 1: when it was plaining to see you could see the pain.
[16:37] Speaker 3: On his face. And that's all I felt, too.
[16:40] Speaker 1: But today it's far different, And you know, mentioning the
[16:46] Speaker 1: prop bets I was I've never been an advocate of.
[16:50] Speaker 3: Prop bets on college athletes.
[16:53] Speaker 1: I did wind up doing it the last last several
[16:55] Speaker 1: years that I was in the business, but I had
[16:58] Speaker 1: to to keep up with the Joneses by that time.
[17:00] Speaker 3: By that time, you know, in the late twenty eighteen
[17:05] Speaker 3: nineteen in.
[17:07] Speaker 1: Early twenties, you could not have prop bets up on
[17:12] Speaker 1: the college football championship game or the final four. You know,
[17:16] Speaker 1: it was expected by that time by your consumers, and
[17:20] Speaker 1: you had to accommodate your consumers.
[17:21] Speaker 3: So I did do it, but I never liked it.
[17:24] Speaker 1: But what's happened now in the last couple of years
[17:27] Speaker 1: with you know, in pro baseball and pro basketball has
[17:31] Speaker 1: been very surprising and devastating to me, and that is
[17:37] Speaker 1: going to be very tough to control.
[17:39] Speaker 3: Prop betting and.
[17:42] Speaker 1: In play wagering has become a very fun, enjoyable pastime
[17:46] Speaker 1: for thousands and thousands of consumers, so it's going to
[17:49] Speaker 1: be hard to roll that back. But on college sports
[17:52] Speaker 1: it should be rolled back, and I am a strong,
[17:55] Speaker 1: strong advocate of the industry doing away with proper wagering
[17:59] Speaker 1: on college sports, or I call it individual athlete athletic performance.
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[19:37] Speaker 2: I want to go back to the Tyson Buster Douglas
[19:39] Speaker 2: fight where Mike Tyson I think was a forty two
[19:42] Speaker 2: to one favorite. I can remember going on the air
[19:45] Speaker 2: and saying it's the safest bet of all time. In fact,
[19:48] Speaker 2: a friend of mine, a friend of mine, was at
[19:51] Speaker 2: the California Pizza Kitchen at the then time New Mirage
[19:57] Speaker 2: and we were at the California Pizza and the fight
[19:59] Speaker 2: was that night, and he goes, hey, han't about ten
[20:01] Speaker 2: dollars on Buster Douglas. I said, just buy a chicken
[20:05] Speaker 2: California pizza, chicken barbecue, chicken pizza. That is a way
[20:09] Speaker 2: better bet than Buster Douglas, some guy from Ohio. Of course,
[20:14] Speaker 2: I was, you know, exceptionally wrong. Go back to that fight.
[20:20] Speaker 2: What happens in your space when it is the upset
[20:25] Speaker 2: of a decade in any sport. Is that a miserable
[20:29] Speaker 2: experience for you?
[20:30] Speaker 3: Well, I didn't even book that fight. I didn't take
[20:34] Speaker 3: wages on it.
[20:34] Speaker 1: I thought if I considered it an outprice, meaning it
[20:37] Speaker 1: was ridiculous.
[20:39] Speaker 3: It wasn't a competitive event.
[20:41] Speaker 1: Buster Douglas had fought at the Hilton about a year
[20:44] Speaker 1: earlier and lost to Tony Tucker and did not impress
[20:50] Speaker 1: me at all.
[20:51] Speaker 2: You know.
[20:51] Speaker 1: It was a lethargic and you know, just uninspired performance
[20:55] Speaker 1: completely and didn't didn't look good at all. And I'd
[20:57] Speaker 1: seen him in some other fights too on his way
[20:59] Speaker 1: up the last not very impressive to me. Tyson, of course,
[21:04] Speaker 1: was annihilating everybody at that time. But in retrospect, Buster
[21:10] Speaker 1: Douglas had lost his mother shortly before the fight, and
[21:13] Speaker 1: he dedicated his next fight to the memory of his mom.
[21:18] Speaker 1: Fought the fight of his life. He really did fight
[21:21] Speaker 1: a terrific fight that night. Tyson, on the other hand,
[21:24] Speaker 1: was an emotional wreck in his personal life, and I
[21:29] Speaker 1: came to learn later in this case, I learned this
[21:32] Speaker 1: inside information after the fact, not before the fact. But
[21:35] Speaker 1: I was told by a very good friend and my
[21:38] Speaker 1: personal physician who happened to be Mike's personal physician also
[21:41] Speaker 1: and also the chairman of the Nevada Athletic Commission, that
[21:45] Speaker 1: Mike had been suffering from an STD and was under
[21:49] Speaker 1: heavy medication at the time of the fight, and it
[21:52] Speaker 1: wasn't the first time that he fought under those conditions.
[21:54] Speaker 1: The first time in the Trevor Burberck fight didn't. It
[21:58] Speaker 1: didn't hurt his performs at all. Second time it did.
[22:02] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[22:03] Speaker 1: The and by the way, by the way, calling that
[22:06] Speaker 1: that forty two to one that you're referencing, that, that
[22:09] Speaker 1: was Jimmy Vicerra at the Mirage book the fight, and
[22:13] Speaker 1: he put it up one to twenty seven, making Tyson
[22:16] Speaker 1: a twenty seven to one favorite over Douglas. And all
[22:19] Speaker 1: the money was on Tyson, every ticket was on Tyson.
[22:22] Speaker 1: He said, somebody put up somebody put up a lot
[22:24] Speaker 1: of money, you know. And and so he graduated the
[22:29] Speaker 1: odds all the way up to forty two to one
[22:31] Speaker 1: and that and uh and then got some great publicity
[22:34] Speaker 1: about it afterwards, and that still telling stories about it
[22:38] Speaker 1: to this day.
[22:39] Speaker 2: The when when when the Supreme Court rules sports gambling
[22:44] Speaker 2: is legal, how does it? And then almost simultaneously, the
[22:50] Speaker 2: Draft Kings, the fandles. We have a deal with hard
[22:52] Speaker 2: Rock bet who they have been a great partner for me.
[22:54] Speaker 2: They don't force me in to make silly bets there there.
[22:58] Speaker 2: You know, it's a it's a big broad relationship with
[23:01] Speaker 2: shows that we've built for them, beyond just picking occasional
[23:04] Speaker 2: football games. But how does it affect the sports book
[23:08] Speaker 2: in general. Again, I spent my saturdays at your Las
[23:13] Speaker 2: Vegas Hillton sports Book. I parked in the back parking lot.
[23:16] Speaker 2: I came in and I parked there all day. I
[23:19] Speaker 2: should own stock in the company has legalized gambling, all
[23:25] Speaker 2: the various companies where people can now bet on apps.
[23:30] Speaker 2: How does it affect the sports books in Vegas or
[23:33] Speaker 2: Atlantic City. Well, the sportsbooks in Las Vegas have not
[23:37] Speaker 2: been hurt by the proliferation of gaming. The sports gaming
[23:40] Speaker 2: across the country.
[23:41] Speaker 1: Now this year is a little bit of an anomaly
[23:43] Speaker 1: the sports. The Super Bowl handle was significantly down in
[23:47] Speaker 1: Las Vegas. And there's probably several reasons why. Number One,
[23:51] Speaker 1: it wasn't the you know, a great marquee matchup. It
[23:55] Speaker 1: was it was, you know, there's two teams were good.
[23:58] Speaker 1: They were especially at Seattle. Defense was really awesome. Uh.
[24:02] Speaker 1: Most of the season is through the playoffs, of course,
[24:05] Speaker 1: But nevertheless, there wasn't the big name guys, you know
[24:09] Speaker 1: there there was no Tom Brady, no Dan Murrin, no, no,
[24:11] Speaker 1: you know, no, no real marquee names in the game.
[24:16] Speaker 1: The prediction markets may it may or may not have
[24:19] Speaker 1: been a factor. Yes, and uh and and everybody having
[24:22] Speaker 1: gambling in their own backyard. Now it may be a factor,
[24:26] Speaker 1: so you know, I'm I'm still analyzing that to know
[24:30] Speaker 1: exactly what happened. Las Vegas to me is undoubtedly still
[24:36] Speaker 1: the most exciting city in the world.
[24:37] Speaker 3: I still love it.
[24:38] Speaker 1: I still love living here, and we're not going anywhere
[24:42] Speaker 1: but right now there the industry, it does have to
[24:47] Speaker 1: take competition very seriously and and and get their arms
[24:49] Speaker 1: around our own practices here internally, uh from from uh
[24:54] Speaker 1: you know, parking fees and costs of drinks and add
[24:58] Speaker 1: on fees to hotel rooms and so and so forth.
[25:00] Speaker 1: Those things do have to be addressed now about industry wide,
[25:04] Speaker 1: and I think they are you know, people who are
[25:06] Speaker 1: build and run these places aren'tdummies.
[25:08] Speaker 3: They're getting it. They're getting it now.
[25:11] Speaker 2: Yeah. I Mean one of the reasons my company, the Volume,
[25:13] Speaker 2: embraced hard rock bet is because they had brick and
[25:16] Speaker 2: mortar businesses. And I've said, guys, I've spent I went
[25:20] Speaker 2: to the Hilton, I was at Caesar's. I want to
[25:24] Speaker 2: have a relationship. Hard rock bet, as you know, is
[25:26] Speaker 2: building one on the strip. And my take has always
[25:30] Speaker 2: been I love the in person betting experience of a
[25:35] Speaker 2: sports book. I also like the ability to go on
[25:38] Speaker 2: an app. But when I went to hard Rock bet
[25:41] Speaker 2: and I can hang out in their sports book, I'm like,
[25:42] Speaker 2: oh my god, I felt like I was at the Hilton.
[25:44] Speaker 2: Maybe not as grand quite as the Hilton. I mean,
[25:47] Speaker 2: let's be honest, when you were running the Hilton sports book,
[25:51] Speaker 2: what percentage of betters are marks squares and what percentage
[25:56] Speaker 2: are sharps and pros.
[26:00] Speaker 3: Oh boy, that's a good question.
[26:04] Speaker 1: I once put everybody solely in one of those categories,
[26:08] Speaker 1: and and and not allowed for a huge middle ground there.
[26:12] Speaker 1: There are there's a lot of people that are in
[26:14] Speaker 1: the middle between the two, and some are shaded more
[26:17] Speaker 1: towards the sophisticated side, some not so much.
[26:21] Speaker 3: Uh.
[26:22] Speaker 2: You know.
[26:22] Speaker 3: And in today's world, you know, shows like yours and.
[26:26] Speaker 1: And and the data available online, the ability to investigate
[26:30] Speaker 1: what's going on is so much greater than it used
[26:34] Speaker 1: to be, you know, and just just you know, following
[26:37] Speaker 1: any you know, certain certain information networks online. You know,
[26:42] Speaker 1: it's it's far different than in the old days, where
[26:44] Speaker 1: the old timers used to brag about getting newspapers at
[26:47] Speaker 1: the airport from people.
[26:49] Speaker 3: Coming off the plane.
[26:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that that's long you know, obviously long
[26:54] Speaker 1: gone now and and get you know, so access to
[26:57] Speaker 1: information is so much greater today, and that that in
[27:00] Speaker 1: analysis is a very formidable part of sports handicapping today,
[27:05] Speaker 1: which which didn't exist in those days. And but but
[27:09] Speaker 1: not everybody is one extreme or the other, you know, not,
[27:12] Speaker 1: you know, it's not every you know, one segment of
[27:15] Speaker 1: the market isn't just coming in and betting on their
[27:17] Speaker 1: favorite team because it came from that town, and the
[27:19] Speaker 1: other segment, you know, doing sophisticated analysis.
[27:23] Speaker 3: There's a lot of people in between.
[27:25] Speaker 1: And one thing that I do point out in the
[27:28] Speaker 1: book also is most guys have an opinion on sports,
[27:33] Speaker 1: and if they have an opinion on sports, they generally
[27:36] Speaker 1: think their opinion.
[27:37] Speaker 3: Is better than the next guys, right, yeah.
[27:39] Speaker 1: And if they think their opinion is better than the
[27:42] Speaker 1: average guy, then they think they can beat sports gambling.
[27:45] Speaker 3: And you know, most cannot, but some do.
[27:48] Speaker 2: You know.
[27:48] Speaker 1: I tell the story of my uncle Jack Fransy Pittsburgh, Jack,
[27:51] Speaker 1: who was a successful sports handicapper for sixty years, never
[27:58] Speaker 1: worked a full day in his life, work behalf a
[28:00] Speaker 1: day once and quit but that was it.
[28:05] Speaker 2: Well, I've always argued sports gambling has the hold is
[28:09] Speaker 2: smaller than a lottery. People we have. Lotteries are legal everywhere,
[28:13] Speaker 2: but they hold half the money and you have almost
[28:15] Speaker 2: no shot to win. I can on any given Sunday
[28:18] Speaker 2: this year, I hit fifty nine and a half percent
[28:20] Speaker 2: on my NFL bets. That's pretty good number.
[28:23] Speaker 3: That's great, that's terrific. Yeah, very very good.
[28:28] Speaker 1: But you're right, the margins and sports are not that great,
[28:32] Speaker 1: and it's a very expensive department to run in most cases.
[28:36] Speaker 1: You know, the technology involved, the staffing involved, the management,
[28:41] Speaker 1: you know, the data analysis.
[28:43] Speaker 3: In today's world, which is a big part of the game.
[28:45] Speaker 3: Those things are not cheap.
[28:47] Speaker 1: And when you're running on very thin margins, you know,
[28:50] Speaker 1: it's it's tough to make a lot of money. And
[28:53] Speaker 1: that's another reason that I just don't. It doesn't make
[28:56] Speaker 1: sense to me for companies to be spending enormous amounts
[28:59] Speaker 1: of money to be in marketing partnerships with the leagues
[29:02] Speaker 1: and teams.
[29:04] Speaker 3: When you know they're better.
[29:06] Speaker 1: If people want to bet sports, they can find a
[29:08] Speaker 1: place to bet sports. They could find the app, they
[29:11] Speaker 1: could find us the casino or sports book in their
[29:14] Speaker 1: city or in their geographic reason region. You don't need
[29:19] Speaker 1: to be bombarded with sportsbook advertising at every break in
[29:23] Speaker 1: the game.
[29:24] Speaker 2: The listen, there's there's a lot of a lot of golfers,
[29:29] Speaker 2: for instance, are kind of legendary gamblers.
[29:32] Speaker 3: They're not part of the league.
[29:33] Speaker 2: I mean even the PG eight doesn't run Augusta or
[29:36] Speaker 2: the British Open or the US Open. So and golfers,
[29:38] Speaker 2: I mean these days they make money on YouTube, they
[29:40] Speaker 2: make money on teaching, they make money persons from winning events.
[29:44] Speaker 2: They golfers have always sort of lived their own sort
[29:48] Speaker 2: of life art, you know, they kind of doing their
[29:50] Speaker 2: own thing. Yea, there were rumors about Phil Mickelson forever.
[29:53] Speaker 2: I read Alan Shipknuk's book on Phil Mickelson, which I
[29:58] Speaker 2: don't think Michelson liked the book, but I I actually thought,
[30:01] Speaker 2: like Wolf of wall Street or the Oliver Stone movie,
[30:07] Speaker 2: the Gordon Gecko character. Actually Oliver Stone wasn't trying to
[30:11] Speaker 2: make him likable, but young people found him to be heroic.
[30:15] Speaker 2: They Oliver Stone later acknowledged that he didn't want to
[30:19] Speaker 2: make Gordon Decko likable, but it made all these young
[30:22] Speaker 2: guys that want to be stockbrokers. I read Phil Mickelson's book,
[30:25] Speaker 2: and I'm like, okay, Phil Bett. He was a voracious eater,
[30:29] Speaker 2: a voracious liver, a voracious better. So let's talk Phil Mickelson,
[30:34] Speaker 2: who had a legendary reputation. When did you discover Phil
[30:38] Speaker 2: liked it? Bet occasionally.
[30:41] Speaker 1: Late nineties late late nineties. He was a frequent Las
[30:46] Speaker 1: Vegas customer.
[30:47] Speaker 2: Was he a good better?
[30:49] Speaker 3: Not especially until later on.
[30:51] Speaker 1: But he was just like like most average people coming
[30:55] Speaker 1: you know, he made a ton of money, so he
[30:57] Speaker 1: would bet a little bit.
[30:58] Speaker 3: He would bet more than most, but that's the.
[31:00] Speaker 1: Only thing that separated him from the casual fan, other
[31:03] Speaker 1: fans that would come in and bet their favorite teams
[31:06] Speaker 1: or conferences. And he was a very likable guy. Nobody
[31:11] Speaker 1: ever had any problem with him personally. He treated the
[31:13] Speaker 1: staff very courteously. He signed autographs periodically. He was a
[31:19] Speaker 1: very likable guy and I have no grudge against him.
[31:23] Speaker 1: I do think that he got caught up. He got
[31:27] Speaker 1: in over his head and he started associating with people
[31:31] Speaker 1: that he shouldn't have been, being a high stakes athlete
[31:34] Speaker 1: like that, a very competitive athlete.
[31:36] Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, he did what
[31:39] Speaker 3: he should have done.
[31:40] Speaker 1: You know, he got out, he stopped playing, he kept
[31:43] Speaker 1: his mouth shut, and in one case he had to.
[31:45] Speaker 3: Pay restitution, and he did that.
[31:48] Speaker 1: And you know, if I ever saw him or had
[31:50] Speaker 1: the opportunity to speak to him again, I would love to.
[31:55] Speaker 1: I would be glad to see him. I admire him
[31:58] Speaker 1: as an athlete and admire him for the steps that
[32:02] Speaker 1: he's taken since he stopped stopped gambling.
[32:05] Speaker 2: So give me something the average fan would be surprised
[32:10] Speaker 2: about with sports gambling. You know, I think of myself
[32:13] Speaker 2: as a square, but more in the middle than a
[32:17] Speaker 2: full square. I'm pretty, I'm unemotional. I kind of go in.
[32:22] Speaker 2: I've always said I bet numbers. I don't bet teams.
[32:25] Speaker 2: I bet numbers. I don't bet players. I look at
[32:27] Speaker 2: a number. Now, I had New England plus four and
[32:30] Speaker 2: a half of the Super Bowl. I did have Sam
[32:33] Speaker 2: Darnold under two touchdown passes. But I got smoked. But but.
[32:38] Speaker 3: Give me by the way that fifty I might be
[32:41] Speaker 3: calling you.
[32:44] Speaker 1: Is is.
[32:46] Speaker 2: Are there sports that you make money that I we
[32:49] Speaker 2: I wouldn't believe are there are there certain sports that
[32:52] Speaker 2: it's you guys like hockey. The people that bet hockey,
[32:55] Speaker 2: I would guess really know hockey. Are there sports that
[32:58] Speaker 2: are trouble for a sports book operator. I imagine you
[33:01] Speaker 2: do pretty well in the NFL. But let's take hockey.
[33:04] Speaker 2: Who bets hockey unless they know hockey? Is that a
[33:06] Speaker 2: tough one?
[33:07] Speaker 3: That's your analogy is spot on.
[33:10] Speaker 1: But things changed in Las Vegas quite a bit when
[33:13] Speaker 1: the Golden Knights opened up here in Las Vegas.
[33:15] Speaker 3: Okay, you know, prior to that time, our decisions on
[33:18] Speaker 3: hockey were minuscule. But you're right.
[33:21] Speaker 1: There was a lot of sophisticated players, betters that bet hockey,
[33:25] Speaker 1: and not so much the general public. But that all
[33:29] Speaker 1: changed overnight and and this city just totally embraced the Knights.
[33:33] Speaker 3: They were so good their first years, right out of
[33:36] Speaker 3: the box.
[33:37] Speaker 1: And it followed right when they first season started, followed
[33:42] Speaker 1: that horrible shooting on the strip from at Mandalay Bay,
[33:46] Speaker 1: and the city was just shocked.
[33:49] Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden, this team came into our.
[33:52] Speaker 1: Lives and everybody in town was rooting for them, and
[33:56] Speaker 1: they had this slogan Vegas Strong, and everybody, you know,
[34:00] Speaker 1: you you'd see those signs all over the city, and.
[34:03] Speaker 3: The city loved them. And I as a book maker
[34:05] Speaker 3: started getting killed in hockey after game after and they
[34:10] Speaker 3: came so close to winning at all where we would
[34:14] Speaker 3: have gotten carried out if they if they had won
[34:16] Speaker 3: the championship. That was the biggest sweat of my life
[34:18] Speaker 3: as a book maker.
[34:21] Speaker 1: But yeah, now since then, yeah, the hockey is much
[34:24] Speaker 1: bigger part of the betting handle and Nevada than it
[34:27] Speaker 1: used to be. But but but football is still the
[34:30] Speaker 1: king of betting sports, you know, it really is. Football
[34:33] Speaker 1: is just made for sports gambling. You know, people have
[34:35] Speaker 1: a week to uh, to do their homework and to
[34:40] Speaker 1: argue with their friends and and and compare opinions and
[34:43] Speaker 1: shop for numbers and and uh, you know, and then
[34:47] Speaker 1: and and and then uh, you.
[34:48] Speaker 3: Know, everything everything culminates on the weekend.
[34:52] Speaker 1: And and and that that is that that is still
[34:54] Speaker 1: the biggest betting sport in Las Vegas, and and and
[34:57] Speaker 1: in America. Best all is strong. The NCAA tournament is gigantic. Also,
[35:06] Speaker 1: baseball is probably the lightest of the major sports. But
[35:12] Speaker 1: because of the numbers of games that total handle does
[35:16] Speaker 1: add up to a lot, but but by but comparing
[35:20] Speaker 1: individual game to individual game, baseball is far behind the others.
[35:24] Speaker 3: The other major.
[35:25] Speaker 2: Sports I can remember This is very early days when
[35:36] Speaker 2: I was. I got out of school in the high
[35:39] Speaker 2: school eighty two eighty six college and I went to
[35:41] Speaker 2: Vegas and I picked up on a couple of trends.
[35:44] Speaker 2: I knew the Packed twelve at the time Packed ten
[35:47] Speaker 2: really well. And I always thought that I knew the
[35:51] Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest teams better than the sports books because I
[35:54] Speaker 2: was from up there.
[35:55] Speaker 3: And I did.
[35:56] Speaker 2: I remember one year I hit seven of eight bets
[35:58] Speaker 2: on Oregon State. I always felt USC was overplayed in Vegas,
[36:04] Speaker 2: so I tended to bet against USC and bet for
[36:07] Speaker 2: the Northwest schools. I do remember something, and it's very
[36:10] Speaker 2: fuzzy because I moved there. Tony Spilatro was there. I
[36:13] Speaker 2: once walked into a restaurant on Spring Mountain Road and
[36:15] Speaker 2: saw Tony Spilatro and he started eyeing me, and I thought,
[36:18] Speaker 2: he thinks I'm a news guy. I'm like, I'm a
[36:20] Speaker 2: sports guy. I'll give you a pick, leave me alone.
[36:24] Speaker 2: So I was free. I wouldn't go to the bathroom.
[36:26] Speaker 2: I'm like, there's Tony Spilatro and a table of mob guys.
[36:29] Speaker 2: Ned Day was a reporter at Channel eight doing and
[36:32] Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm not going near the bathroom. So but
[36:36] Speaker 2: the point was there was a story, and I don't remember,
[36:38] Speaker 2: it's very fuzzy, but there was IVY League Football, and
[36:42] Speaker 2: there was a syndicate or a bunch of sharps on
[36:45] Speaker 2: the East coast that were beaten up on sports books.
[36:49] Speaker 2: And the only people that met IVY League football knew
[36:51] Speaker 2: IVY League football. And if I recall, some of the
[36:54] Speaker 2: sports books said, we're just not letting you bet it.
[36:57] Speaker 2: Do you remember that with IVY League football.
[37:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, but it wasn't just IVU football. It's the smaller
[37:03] Speaker 1: conferences in general. And you know, I finally did a
[37:07] Speaker 1: study and was able to approve. I was able to
[37:10] Speaker 1: prove what I had theorized for many many years. I
[37:14] Speaker 1: think was twenty twenty. I brought in an analytics firm
[37:19] Speaker 1: and they analyzed a lot of data and finally documented
[37:24] Speaker 1: that we made very very little money, almost to break
[37:27] Speaker 1: even on all the small conferences that we booked.
[37:30] Speaker 3: But the major conferences we clim you know, we did
[37:33] Speaker 3: very very well.
[37:35] Speaker 1: You know, so the more viewer, the more viewers of
[37:40] Speaker 1: any event, that that's our bread and butter business in
[37:44] Speaker 1: my opinion.
[37:45] Speaker 3: You know, that's where we made our money.
[37:46] Speaker 1: If it's you know, a marquee matchup, you know Alabama
[37:50] Speaker 1: and Auburn, or you know some USC and UCLA and
[37:54] Speaker 1: our case being so close to southern California. Those are
[37:58] Speaker 1: those are the matchups you like as a book maker.
[38:00] Speaker 1: And I always took much higher limits on the Power
[38:04] Speaker 1: conferences and the week conferences, very low limits. And the
[38:08] Speaker 1: sophisticated betters didn't like that, of course, because that's where
[38:11] Speaker 1: they had their best opportunities.
[38:12] Speaker 3: And you're right, they knew more than me, certainly more
[38:15] Speaker 3: than the industry in general.
[38:18] Speaker 2: In when you get a situation like Otani and I
[38:22] Speaker 2: defended him, I'm like, listen, folks, he doesn't speak our language. Okay,
[38:27] Speaker 2: communication is a problem. Every state has different tax laws.
[38:30] Speaker 2: When you're making so much money, not only with the
[38:33] Speaker 2: Dodgers in baseball, but overseas on merchandise. If you go
[38:38] Speaker 2: to Japan, he's on every billboard. He's bigger than he's
[38:41] Speaker 2: Taylor Swift times ten and I said, he's got thirty
[38:45] Speaker 2: revenue streams coming in. I can see him getting used
[38:48] Speaker 2: by an interpreter. When the Otawi story came down, What
[38:51] Speaker 2: was your initial reaction and do you have any insight into.
[38:54] Speaker 3: That I don't. I did.
[38:57] Speaker 1: I did have some experience with the felt that was
[39:00] Speaker 1: uh uh allegedly took took the wagers and the book
[39:04] Speaker 1: maker that was involved. He was a he was a
[39:07] Speaker 1: player around Las Vegas, and he did raise some red
[39:10] Speaker 1: flags as a player because he was a very big
[39:12] Speaker 1: player without a known source of income. So he did
[39:16] Speaker 1: raise raise red flags and he was uh not allowed
[39:20] Speaker 1: to frequent certain places around Las Vegas. Yeah, now that
[39:25] Speaker 1: that story was just horrendous and so dangerous for for
[39:29] Speaker 1: Major League Baseball. I do do not have any inside
[39:32] Speaker 1: knowledge on what happened there the story.
[39:35] Speaker 3: Uh, you know, I have some.
[39:36] Speaker 1: Personal thoughts about it, but not something I would I
[39:39] Speaker 1: should say or would would say publicly because I don't
[39:43] Speaker 1: have any any any evidence or knowledge behind the scenes.
[39:47] Speaker 1: But uh, other than the fact that you know that
[39:50] Speaker 1: it was very dangerous for the leagues. And and it
[39:54] Speaker 1: comes to the point, you know, my over writing point
[39:58] Speaker 1: on all of these discussions and and in the book
[40:01] Speaker 1: is about the integrity of sports. And you know who
[40:06] Speaker 1: said it best was in the nineteen thirties or twenties
[40:10] Speaker 1: Meyer Lansky, the mobster and bookmaker and Ilio casino operator.
[40:18] Speaker 1: But he's the one that stated many times that our
[40:22] Speaker 1: games must be credible and if we lack integrity in
[40:25] Speaker 1: our gaming product, we lose everything. And he's exactly right,
[40:30] Speaker 1: and the leagues have got to wake up to that
[40:32] Speaker 1: reality today. And I'm not blaming the league at all
[40:35] Speaker 1: for the ATNI situation as far as gambling is concerned,
[40:38] Speaker 1: but I do fault the league's for their sudden one
[40:43] Speaker 1: hundred and eighty degree turnaround and embrace of gambling.
[40:46] Speaker 3: It's too much, too fast.
[40:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I can remember years ago when Tony
[40:50] Speaker 2: Romo wanted to go and join some fantasy football business
[40:56] Speaker 2: in Vegas. It was small potatoes and the NFL would
[40:59] Speaker 2: not allow it. And then three years later they owned
[41:02] Speaker 2: have a FanDuel, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[41:05] Speaker 1: You know there was most of my career we weren't
[41:07] Speaker 1: allowed to advertise during an NFL broadcast, The city of
[41:11] Speaker 1: Las Vegas itself could not advertise in the Super Bowl.
[41:15] Speaker 3: You know, we were just totally vilified. And you know,
[41:19] Speaker 3: now all of a sudden, you know, my.
[41:22] Speaker 1: Question to the leagues is, were you guys right then
[41:25] Speaker 1: or are you right now? Or is there a happy
[41:29] Speaker 1: medium in there somewhere? And I think there may be.
[41:32] Speaker 3: I hope there is.
[41:33] Speaker 2: Well, I mean Vegas. By the time I got there,
[41:36] Speaker 2: you did have Tony Spillatro, you did have mob reporters,
[41:40] Speaker 2: but it mostly dried up. You know a Lefty Rosenthal who,
[41:45] Speaker 2: by the way, his car got blown up. There's a
[41:48] Speaker 2: Marie Calendar's now there. That is where I met my
[41:52] Speaker 2: first wife, Kim was at that Marie Calendars where she
[41:57] Speaker 2: was a waitress, and before I go to work, I'd
[41:59] Speaker 2: go get my corn red and chili every Wednesday and Thursday.
[42:03] Speaker 2: So but let's talk about was there a you know,
[42:08] Speaker 2: Billy Walters and Lem Banker. You know that's that's not mobsters,
[42:12] Speaker 2: that's sharp's. Were there situations early in your career where
[42:17] Speaker 2: you know, when you were at Caesar's there's there was
[42:19] Speaker 2: a mob presence in the desert. Did you ever did
[42:23] Speaker 2: you ever feel threatened? Were there ever moments where it
[42:26] Speaker 2: got a little dicey for you?
[42:27] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[42:28] Speaker 3: But I was so naive at that time. I didn't
[42:31] Speaker 3: I wasn't as scared as I should have been.
[42:35] Speaker 1: I did deal with it when I when I was
[42:37] Speaker 1: at the Stardust, I did deal with Spillachio's runner, you know,
[42:42] Speaker 1: who was a regular customer and he pretty much called
[42:46] Speaker 1: his shots. He would dictate the terms of his wagers.
[42:48] Speaker 1: In other words, he would tell them to change the price,
[42:51] Speaker 1: and he'd get his his his price, and that you know,
[42:54] Speaker 1: that's just not only unusual, it's crazy for a bookmaker
[42:58] Speaker 1: to do that. But then when I went to the
[43:02] Speaker 1: Barbary Coast, I was dealing with him there and he
[43:07] Speaker 1: came in the same fellas came in and bet sixteen
[43:10] Speaker 1: college basketball games. We were taking a dime one thousand
[43:13] Speaker 1: dollars on college basketball. Most of the bets were small conferences,
[43:17] Speaker 1: and he bet six sixteen college basketball games for eleven
[43:20] Speaker 1: hundred each, gave me sixteen five sixteen thousand, five hundred,
[43:25] Speaker 1: and out the door he went. And it wasn't until
[43:27] Speaker 1: later in the evening I realized I undercharged him eleven
[43:30] Speaker 1: hundred dollars. I was short at eleven hundred dollars should
[43:34] Speaker 1: have been seventeen thousand, six hundred, and I was freaking out.
[43:39] Speaker 1: I was petrified at what was going to happen. That
[43:41] Speaker 1: was a big shortage for me, the biggest of my life.
[43:43] Speaker 1: As a young ticket writer. Called Jimmy mccaro I told
[43:48] Speaker 1: him what had happened. He knew I was scared, and
[43:50] Speaker 1: he told me, don't worry about it, turn your drawer
[43:53] Speaker 1: in and we'll talk. I'll talk to you tomorrow, and
[43:57] Speaker 1: so I did, and then I came to find out
[44:00] Speaker 1: later on that Jimmy covered that shortage out of his
[44:03] Speaker 1: own pocket the next morning and opened my eyes. And
[44:08] Speaker 1: at that point I knew which side of the counter
[44:10] Speaker 1: I wanted to be on, and who I wanted to
[44:12] Speaker 1: work for, and who I wanted to emulate.
[44:15] Speaker 3: And that was a very very valuable lesson for me.
[44:18] Speaker 2: When do you think the Spilatro and those guys, because
[44:22] Speaker 2: when you say they changed the lines, basically what you're
[44:25] Speaker 2: saying is they went into the Starbucks and they Starbucks.
[44:28] Speaker 2: They went into the Stardust and said, I'm not going
[44:30] Speaker 2: to bet it at minus four, it's going to be
[44:32] Speaker 2: minus seven. Well that obviously plus yeah, yeah, plus that's
[44:38] Speaker 2: long gone. Instead of plus four, it's plus seven. When
[44:41] Speaker 2: was the time that the that the mob had no control?
[44:47] Speaker 2: Did you notice like the influence didn't matter, because they
[44:50] Speaker 2: obviously did that at the Stardust for years, but that
[44:53] Speaker 2: didn't carry on by the time I got to town.
[44:55] Speaker 2: That's not the way it worked.
[44:56] Speaker 3: When did that end mid eighties.
[45:02] Speaker 1: I was at Caesar's the first time in eighty Ford
[45:08] Speaker 1: to eighty six and one of Spilato's Spilotro's guys did
[45:12] Speaker 1: did approach me there, and I knew he was a
[45:14] Speaker 1: Spilatro guy, but you know, I just treated him like
[45:18] Speaker 1: every other customer. But eventually, you know, he started hanging around,
[45:22] Speaker 1: kept trying to talk to me, and eventually said, you
[45:26] Speaker 1: know what, can we can do some great things together.
[45:29] Speaker 1: We can help each other, and you know, planted that
[45:32] Speaker 1: seed and repeated it a couple of days.
[45:34] Speaker 3: In a row, and then you know, I realized what
[45:37] Speaker 3: he was doing.
[45:38] Speaker 1: I realized that, you know, he wanted to get into me,
[45:42] Speaker 1: cutting into me, and I just laughed it off. I
[45:46] Speaker 1: just brust it aside, kept doing my job, never answered,
[45:50] Speaker 1: never said no, never said anything about it, just laughed
[45:54] Speaker 1: and kept about my business. But I should have taken
[45:58] Speaker 1: it much more seriously, you know, And had I responded negatively,
[46:02] Speaker 1: had I gone to corporate security or the police or
[46:06] Speaker 1: gaming Control Board or anybody else, who knows what would
[46:08] Speaker 1: have happened.
[46:09] Speaker 3: I don't know.
[46:10] Speaker 1: In retrospect, I'm glad I handled it the way that
[46:12] Speaker 1: I did, but I really was too naive to know
[46:15] Speaker 1: what to do and by accident did the right thing.
[46:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, well, art Man Terraces, It's called the bookie. For me,
[46:23] Speaker 2: there were just so many fun stories. I was your
[46:25] Speaker 2: typical small town, rural Washington naive kid, obsessed with my career,
[46:32] Speaker 2: and it was people, honestly, you and Chuck Esposito, Roxy Roxborough,
[46:37] Speaker 2: who I knew of didn't get to spend a lot
[46:39] Speaker 2: of time with him, but it was people like that
[46:43] Speaker 2: that actually kind of taught me a little bit behind
[46:46] Speaker 2: the ropes. I've always been indebted. I've always been fascinated
[46:50] Speaker 2: and I'm just so happy for your success. Your family's beautiful,
[46:53] Speaker 2: by the way, absolutely stunning wife and kids. And do
[46:59] Speaker 2: you ever out now that you're removed from it, do
[47:02] Speaker 2: you ever say, Hey, I just want to go back.
[47:05] Speaker 2: I want to go bet a football game. How can
[47:07] Speaker 2: you not? Right?
[47:09] Speaker 3: No, No, I don't. I don't.
[47:12] Speaker 1: I still am tempted sometimes in boxing because I antennis.
[47:16] Speaker 3: I've come to really really like tenant, especially the majors,
[47:20] Speaker 3: But no, I don't.
[47:23] Speaker 1: I never as an executive in the industry, I never
[47:26] Speaker 1: felt comfortable in going to other people's sports books are
[47:29] Speaker 1: opening an app elsewhere, and so now I'm not tempted
[47:33] Speaker 1: to do that.
[47:36] Speaker 3: Others around me may answer differently, including the family members,
[47:40] Speaker 3: but not not me.
[47:42] Speaker 1: Art.
[47:42] Speaker 2: It's great to see you. Thanks for giving us forty
[47:44] Speaker 2: five minutes today, and say hi to Sue and congrats
[47:47] Speaker 2: and all your success and your remarkable career.
[47:51] Speaker 3: Thank you, Colin. It was great talking to you. I
[47:54] Speaker 3: love watching you all over the years and watching you
[47:56] Speaker 3: rise in the industry to where you're to your Your
[48:00] Speaker 3: rise has been phenomenal, but not that surprising. I saw
[48:03] Speaker 3: it coming long ago.
[48:04] Speaker 2: All right, Thanks man, Thank you
[48:10] Speaker 1: The volume

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