# J.A. Adande On Steelers + Dodgers Dynasties, The Myth Of Michael Jordan, NIL, LIV Golf Crashes Out

An episode of [The Colin Cowherd Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1551365571), 29 Apr 2026, 42 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/arttrk.com/p/D5CA5/pscrb.fm/rss/p/prfx.byspotify.com/e/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/4013d28e-5f67-4885-bff1-ae3300346830/a3d8156d-72fd-4344-8ce4-b43b01780815/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=e829cf60-fc06-4d61-8691-ae330034683e

Colin is joined by legendary sportswriter, commentator and the Director of Sports Journalism at Northwestern University, J.A. Adande to talk about his new sports podcast with Chuck Todd called “Dynastic”, which does deep dives into some of the most legendary franchises in sports history. They begin with the LIV Tour looking like it’s going belly up and why it wasn’t treated seriously by the broadcast networks & sports media. They discuss the questionable ethics of LIV being funded by the Saudi Arabian sovereign wealth fund and the potential of that type of money flowing into the coffers of other American sports leagues (3:30). They move to Dynastic choosing the 70s Steelers as one of their first dynasties to cover, and what J.A. learned about covering that team. J.A. explains how the Steelers were ahead of the curve on drafting from HBCUs and why being racially progressive was a huge reason for their success (10:30). They pivot to the Dodgers and discuss the lasting legacy of Sonny Koufax despite his career being so short, and why international players have long been a key to the Dodgers success (16:00). They discuss the longstanding MJ vs LeBron debate and compare the major differences in the eras they play in, and J.A. explains that there were two different eras of Michael Jordan and how Jordan eventually became trapped by his fame (25:00). They break down the massive changes to college sports in the NIL era and why it’s ultimately been a net positive for both the athletes and the fans and J.A. argues they should professionalize the relationship with player contracts (30:30). Finally, they discuss the current state of sports journalism and J.A. emphasizes the distinction between sports journalism & sports media, and explains his worries about the future of the journalistic side of the business (36:00). (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Volume See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The volume.
[0:03] Speaker 2: Today's show is brought to you by our presenting sponsor,
[0:06] Speaker 2: American Beverage. If you think about some of the most
[0:08] Speaker 2: iconic drinks in the country, the ones you grab a barbecue,
[0:12] Speaker 2: the ones you raised to celebrate your team, that have
[0:15] Speaker 2: been part of your story for decades, Coke, Doctor Pepper, Pepsi,
[0:18] Speaker 2: there's something people don't always think about. The companies behind
[0:21] Speaker 2: those brands are still making their drinks right here in
[0:23] Speaker 2: the US. While there's a lot of talk about bringing
[0:25] Speaker 2: manufacturing back, America's beverage companies never left their American companies,
[0:29] Speaker 2: making American products with American workers in America's hometown. So
[0:32] Speaker 2: two hundred and seventy five thousand men and women across
[0:35] Speaker 2: all fifty states, real jobs, good paying jobs, the kind
[0:38] Speaker 2: of jobs you can raise a family on. So more
[0:39] Speaker 2: than one hundred years, those brands have been part of
[0:42] Speaker 2: everyday lives and they're still here, still investing, still operating
[0:45] Speaker 2: in communities around the country. So if you care about
[0:47] Speaker 2: strong old economies and companies that walk the walk, check
[0:50] Speaker 2: out the good work and what they're doing it. We
[0:52] Speaker 2: deliver for America dot Org. He's the director of Sports
[1:03] Speaker 2: Journalism at the prestigious Northwestern University of the Big Ten
[1:08] Speaker 2: before that, Washington Post, Chicago Sun Times, La Times. Jaadande
[1:13] Speaker 2: now has a podcast with Chuck Todd called Dynastic where
[1:16] Speaker 2: they do really deep dives on dynasties and stories and
[1:23] Speaker 2: why do these dynasties become dynasties. They did one on
[1:26] Speaker 2: the seventies Steelers, which is when I sort of got
[1:28] Speaker 2: introduced to the NFL. It was the Raiders, it was
[1:31] Speaker 2: the Steelers, it was the Dolphins, it was those late
[1:34] Speaker 2: West Coast Sunday games with the sun coming down in Oakland.
[1:38] Speaker 2: And I think it's interesting, Jay, We've known each other
[1:41] Speaker 2: for many years. Today, five minutes ago before we started
[1:44] Speaker 2: this podcast on Wednesday, Live Golf Tour is going belly
[1:50] Speaker 2: up at the end of the year. They're pulling their funding.
[1:52] Speaker 2: And that's interesting in terms of sports journalism. So I
[1:57] Speaker 2: don't consider myself. I mean, I source things, don't. I
[2:00] Speaker 2: just don't ramble any big story. The larger the allegation,
[2:04] Speaker 2: the more sources I have, and I break occasional stories.
[2:06] Speaker 2: I broke Tom Brady to the Buccaneers. That's about as
[2:10] Speaker 2: big as I can do at this point. But when
[2:13] Speaker 2: the Live tour started. It was is the intersection of
[2:17] Speaker 2: business and journalism. My take was, listen post nine to eleven.
[2:22] Speaker 2: Our government has deals with the Saudis. All sorts of
[2:27] Speaker 2: American companies have deals with the Sadis. I'm not going
[2:30] Speaker 2: to be punitive toward an individual golfer when the PGA
[2:33] Speaker 2: is actually a charity and doesn't really run any of
[2:36] Speaker 2: the golf events I like, like the US Open, the
[2:38] Speaker 2: British or the Masters. My take was, it wasn't It
[2:41] Speaker 2: wasn't stealing Augusta or Pebble Beach or Pinehurst. It was
[2:46] Speaker 2: a disruptor and eventually some players would leave, the PGA
[2:50] Speaker 2: would be forced to treat its stars better. How did
[2:53] Speaker 2: you view live? Because there was the ethical component, the
[2:57] Speaker 2: moral component, How how did you view how Live was covered?
[3:05] Speaker 2: Did it bother you? How would you have covered live?
[3:08] Speaker 3: So?
[3:09] Speaker 4: Certainly from the news story angle right, covering live is
[3:12] Speaker 4: a lot different from joining live right, and I think
[3:15] Speaker 4: even covering the Turn, what was interesting was that it
[3:18] Speaker 4: felt like the tournament wasn't covered as a legitimate competitor
[3:22] Speaker 4: to the PGA Tour right, and part of the problem
[3:25] Speaker 4: when I'd say the main reason it did go belly
[3:28] Speaker 4: up was it never got the type of TV rights
[3:30] Speaker 4: fees and we're near the PGA, right, So that's why
[3:34] Speaker 4: I feeled they could never gain traction as a television event.
[3:37] Speaker 4: You know, really, in this day and age, it doesn't
[3:39] Speaker 4: matter how much the traditional print media covers you. So
[3:42] Speaker 4: it wasn't treated seriously by the TV, probably because they
[3:46] Speaker 4: wanted to protect their relationships with the PGA Tour, Right,
[3:49] Speaker 4: I'm not going to risk jeopardizing my relationship with the
[3:52] Speaker 4: Masters or with the US open to televise lib golf, right,
[3:56] Speaker 4: even if they had some of the bigger names in
[3:58] Speaker 4: the sport at that it didn't gain traction as a
[4:02] Speaker 4: televised event. It felt like the traditional print media never
[4:06] Speaker 4: really covered it. They covered the formation of it, that
[4:09] Speaker 4: was huge news, right, and I think it was treated
[4:12] Speaker 4: as such, But as a sporting entity, it never felt
[4:15] Speaker 4: like it got covered, you know, the way say the
[4:18] Speaker 4: ABA might have been covered back in the nineteen seventies.
[4:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember the ABA, Doctor j There was just
[4:23] Speaker 2: an ABA documentary which I talked about, discussed, interviewed Julius
[4:28] Speaker 2: Irving loved it. That was fascinating because it was actually
[4:32] Speaker 2: many people thought it was a better version of the
[4:34] Speaker 2: actual NBA where none of us thought Live was as
[4:37] Speaker 2: good as the PGA. But I went to an event
[4:41] Speaker 2: because I was talking about it. I went to event.
[4:42] Speaker 2: I thought it was a class classic business and this
[4:46] Speaker 2: happens a lot. It was good in person, it was
[4:48] Speaker 2: bad on TV. You know, who wants to watch team
[4:52] Speaker 2: golf on television? But a lot of that, you know this,
[4:55] Speaker 2: there's a lot of things that were Hockey's great in person.
[4:58] Speaker 2: It's not very good on television, although it's getting a
[5:00] Speaker 2: bit of a renaissance now because it's on broadcast TV,
[5:04] Speaker 2: you know, and a lot of these other leagues are
[5:06] Speaker 2: going to streaming, and there's still a lot of people
[5:08] Speaker 2: that don't have Netflix, Hulu or Amazon. No. I think
[5:11] Speaker 2: Live is fascinating because I have tended to in my
[5:13] Speaker 2: life Jay root for disruptors, and that's how I kind
[5:17] Speaker 2: of looked at it. I'm like, guys, Phil Mickelson doesn't
[5:20] Speaker 2: get an entrance fee or an entry fee. The only
[5:24] Speaker 2: reason I would go to half these tournaments was Tiger
[5:27] Speaker 2: or Phil or Brooks Koepka, and they're treated like one
[5:29] Speaker 2: hundred and seventy fifth golfer, Like I'd get why players
[5:32] Speaker 2: are pissed off. So and then at one point the volume,
[5:37] Speaker 2: like three years in, I'm like, we made a deal
[5:40] Speaker 2: with him. I said, okay, I'll go to a tournament.
[5:41] Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's interesting. I want to
[5:43] Speaker 2: see it. And a lot of people said, well, it's
[5:45] Speaker 2: sports washing. And my takew was, well, Hollywood's getting into it,
[5:49] Speaker 2: my network was into it. Are government's doing deals? I
[5:53] Speaker 2: was conflicted, but I guess my takeaway was going back
[5:57] Speaker 2: to when I started in this business, there have been
[6:00] Speaker 2: so many new leagues. UFC is a prime example where
[6:04] Speaker 2: there were iterations of it. It was thrown off cable
[6:07] Speaker 2: by the late John McCain. It was eye gouging. But
[6:11] Speaker 2: did you feel that Live crossed a moral line because
[6:16] Speaker 2: of it's because of the sponsorships.
[6:19] Speaker 4: It felt unseemly to me. And this is where as
[6:23] Speaker 4: a journalist in particular, it hit home because of the
[6:26] Speaker 4: connection with Jamal Kashogi, who you know, from all evidence
[6:29] Speaker 4: points to was hacked up and dismembered by on orders
[6:34] Speaker 4: from you know the same people that were funding to
[6:38] Speaker 4: Live golf tours. So that was a difficult one for
[6:41] Speaker 4: me to get over. I do see your point, Colin,
[6:43] Speaker 4: that that everywhere you look, people were taking the same
[6:47] Speaker 4: money that was funding this tour. Right, And the fact
[6:51] Speaker 4: that say, the NBA opened itself up to and allowed
[6:54] Speaker 4: was going to allow investment right China, or just investment
[6:58] Speaker 4: even from from the same fund.
[7:00] Speaker 2: Right.
[7:00] Speaker 4: The fact that you could have foreign investment funds purchasing
[7:04] Speaker 4: stakes in NBA teams now and something similar with the NFL,
[7:08] Speaker 4: if I'm not mistaken, right Colin.
[7:10] Speaker 3: They're so. Yeah, it's interesting.
[7:13] Speaker 4: We got to a place where the valuations of these
[7:16] Speaker 4: franchises are so gigantic that the only way you can
[7:20] Speaker 4: sell them is if you're going to open it up
[7:23] Speaker 4: to some of these type investment funds. So and the
[7:26] Speaker 4: only defense of the golfers is that the same money
[7:30] Speaker 4: is a part of all sports now or soon will
[7:35] Speaker 4: become a part of all sports. But to me, it
[7:38] Speaker 4: didn't make it any less unsleamy. It was hard for
[7:40] Speaker 4: me to disassociate myself from the fact of look what happened,
[7:45] Speaker 4: Look what this did? Who what these people did to
[7:49] Speaker 4: a journalist hit home to me and was something I
[7:52] Speaker 4: just couldn't overlook.
[7:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, I get it. You know, You've had an interesting
[7:58] Speaker 2: career and very kind of one of one singular career
[8:02] Speaker 2: columnist at three of the top four or five newspapers
[8:05] Speaker 2: in America, and then you become director of sports journalism.
[8:09] Speaker 2: You know, in my opinion, Missouri and Northwestern two schools
[8:13] Speaker 2: I'd never be able to get into in sports journalism.
[8:16] Speaker 2: You would not accept me. Now if I was, you'd
[8:18] Speaker 2: accept my son. He's a much better student. But it's
[8:21] Speaker 2: interesting that you would talk about dynasties because you you
[8:25] Speaker 2: have the you know, you're you're covering Jordan's bulls. You
[8:27] Speaker 2: know about Shaq and Koby, you had, you really covered
[8:30] Speaker 2: these And I always say this, not all dynasties are
[8:33] Speaker 2: the same. Duncan's dynasty was boring, ok C, maybe boring.
[8:38] Speaker 2: Saban's dynasty was boring. Usc was fascinating, The Dodgers is fascinating,
[8:44] Speaker 2: The Miami Hurricanes were, ohwas culturally fascinating. When you when
[8:48] Speaker 2: you and and so I want to start with the
[8:51] Speaker 2: seventies Steelers. You do this with Chuck Todd dynastic. That
[8:57] Speaker 2: was the introduction for a lot of people my age
[8:59] Speaker 2: to football. And I can remember what I remember about
[9:03] Speaker 2: that team is there were so many stars that I
[9:06] Speaker 2: can name the entire roster of something today and by
[9:10] Speaker 2: the way, you and I grew up with baseball cards
[9:12] Speaker 2: and maybe NBA cards.
[9:13] Speaker 3: We didn't go with football cards, but I.
[9:16] Speaker 2: Could name it today. What did you find out in
[9:19] Speaker 2: exploring the seventies Steelers?
[9:21] Speaker 4: The origin stories, the sort of sliding doors moments, right, So, Colin,
[9:26] Speaker 4: I'm like you. I arrived at the Steelers fully formed.
[9:29] Speaker 4: The first Super Bowl I remember watching with Super Bowl
[9:31] Speaker 4: thirteen in nineteen seventy nine, Steelers thirty five, Cowboys thirty
[9:34] Speaker 4: one played at the Orange Bowl in Miami, So they
[9:37] Speaker 4: were fully formed. So learning how they they did come
[9:40] Speaker 4: together and I had when we were thinking of teams,
[9:43] Speaker 4: I thought of the Steelers, and I kind of knew that, Okay,
[9:45] Speaker 4: they had a great draft run and it was supplemented.
[9:49] Speaker 4: They were early on and ahead of the curve when
[9:51] Speaker 4: it came to drafting players from the historically black colleges.
[9:54] Speaker 4: That was their marketing inefficiency that they exploited. One thing
[9:58] Speaker 4: I learned and doing the research for this was some
[10:00] Speaker 4: of the other ways that they were ahead of the curve.
[10:02] Speaker 4: Chuck Knowle, how racially progressive he was, the fact that
[10:06] Speaker 4: the Steelers said the first black quarterback to start a
[10:09] Speaker 4: season as the starting quarterback for a team, Yeah, with
[10:13] Speaker 4: Jim Gillisberg Steeler. Just some of the other ways that
[10:16] Speaker 4: that locker room was ahead of its time and integrated
[10:19] Speaker 4: that that was interesting to me. So we did our
[10:21] Speaker 4: first episode on the Dodgers, and obviously Jackie Robinson played
[10:25] Speaker 4: a huge role in the story of the Dodgers, but
[10:27] Speaker 4: the Steelers in their own way were racially progressive and
[10:32] Speaker 4: at the forefront of that in the NFL. So that
[10:36] Speaker 4: was probably the core to me that I learned about
[10:39] Speaker 4: this team and Colin, one of the things we're looking
[10:41] Speaker 4: at you behind the scenes on the selection process is
[10:44] Speaker 4: we want big national teams with a huge following at
[10:47] Speaker 4: least to get us going and to get people in
[10:49] Speaker 4: the tent, so to speak. But teams that haven't been
[10:53] Speaker 4: subjects of multi part documentaries for example, right, So there's
[10:57] Speaker 4: a market inefficiency that we can explore. And the Pittsburgh
[11:00] Speaker 4: Steelers are one of the great teams that I think
[11:03] Speaker 4: hasn't been covered to death. So I think listening to
[11:06] Speaker 4: the podcast which just came out today, The Steelers edition
[11:09] Speaker 4: is out today as we record this, available for you
[11:11] Speaker 4: on whatever podcast platform you want to listen to. Is
[11:15] Speaker 4: is you know, telling stories, telling things you didn't know.
[11:18] Speaker 3: It's funny.
[11:19] Speaker 4: I talked to a friend of mine from Pennsylvania today
[11:21] Speaker 4: and I told him a little detail that we found out.
[11:24] Speaker 4: He said, huh, I didn't know that he was a
[11:25] Speaker 4: Steelers fan as a kid. And so, you know, I
[11:29] Speaker 4: want to be surprised. And hopefully the listeners, even if
[11:32] Speaker 4: they're current Steelers fans, were taking them back to the
[11:35] Speaker 4: early days of the franchise and coming all the way
[11:38] Speaker 4: up to today to Mike Tomlin departing and where the
[11:41] Speaker 4: franchise goes from here, and hopefully you can find out
[11:44] Speaker 4: things you didn't know and really think about the decision.
[11:46] Speaker 4: What are the key decisions, What are the things that
[11:49] Speaker 4: could have almost happened? Like did you know they talked
[11:50] Speaker 4: to Joe Paterno before they hired Chuck Knowle as their
[11:54] Speaker 4: foundational coach? Right, So that that was a fascinating What
[11:58] Speaker 4: if you know, what if Joe Paterno had left penn
[12:00] Speaker 4: State as a young man, a young coach early in
[12:02] Speaker 4: his career and gone over to coach the Steelers.
[12:07] Speaker 2: So it dropped today what I remember, one of the
[12:09] Speaker 2: nuggets I remember is they're the only NFL team certainly
[12:13] Speaker 2: in my memory that had posted three straight shutouts. They
[12:17] Speaker 2: had a three week stretch where nobody scored a point.
[12:20] Speaker 2: And fans our age know this, but younger fans may not.
[12:25] Speaker 2: There wasn't Pro sports didn't have that kind of mobility,
[12:28] Speaker 2: and so you could retain all of your great players
[12:32] Speaker 2: as they were ascending into their prime, through their entire prime,
[12:35] Speaker 2: and then you'd move off of them when they moved
[12:37] Speaker 2: out of their prime. I also think of Mike Webster
[12:41] Speaker 2: and you know, let's face it, the steroids in college
[12:45] Speaker 2: football in the nineties and eighties and the NFL in
[12:47] Speaker 2: the seventies and eighties. I mean, you had medical staffs,
[12:50] Speaker 2: it was a local doctor, it was a log you know,
[12:54] Speaker 2: did you guys, was there any discussion of that, because
[12:57] Speaker 2: if you look at the history of Mike Webster, football
[13:00] Speaker 2: was just different back then. I mean, god, you see
[13:03] Speaker 2: videos of those Steelers teams. Lynn Swann catches a touchdown
[13:06] Speaker 2: and then it has to jump over a car that's
[13:08] Speaker 2: parked in the end zone.
[13:09] Speaker 4: Yeah, we talked about I mean, it was a different
[13:13] Speaker 4: place and Mike Webster was so we talked about the
[13:16] Speaker 4: wards of the franchises as well, right, talking about the Dodgers,
[13:19] Speaker 4: in Campan this moment, right like that not everything is glory, yes,
[13:23] Speaker 4: And so with the Steelers, Mike Webster is both representative
[13:27] Speaker 4: of the stability, the fact that he was a starting
[13:29] Speaker 4: center at that brutal toll taking position for fourteen years
[13:33] Speaker 4: and then his successor, DERMANI. Dawson, is the starting center
[13:36] Speaker 4: for ten years. So he's representative of this kind of core, tough,
[13:41] Speaker 4: stable ethos of the Steelers. And yet he's also represented
[13:45] Speaker 4: of the downside, so that you know all the mental
[13:48] Speaker 4: health issues that come with the toll that football takes
[13:51] Speaker 4: on you. And the fact that he died I think
[13:53] Speaker 4: it was at age fifty, but early in his fifties.
[13:55] Speaker 4: You know the number of Steelers that died young because
[13:59] Speaker 4: of this that they played in the era in which
[14:01] Speaker 4: they played it, and you wonder if it, yes, was
[14:04] Speaker 4: exacerbated perhaps by the steroid us so the good and
[14:07] Speaker 4: the bad ist part of it, and Mike Webster in
[14:09] Speaker 4: one person sort of encapsulates all that was great and
[14:12] Speaker 4: also the downside of the Pittsburgh Steelers.
[14:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, in terms of the Dodgers, and have you guys,
[14:18] Speaker 2: lady posted for Dodgers, your dynastic Dodgers, so you know.
[14:23] Speaker 2: I again, let's go back on this. You know, Vin
[14:27] Speaker 2: Scully coming with the team was huge because baseball on
[14:31] Speaker 2: television when when Scully first came to Los Angeles was
[14:34] Speaker 2: not as big. I mean, I can remember there was
[14:36] Speaker 2: a Game of the Week on Saturday with Joe Garagiola.
[14:39] Speaker 2: You know, I can remember the opening. It would show
[14:42] Speaker 2: the Mets and the Pirates of the Reds and then
[14:45] Speaker 2: you'd maybe get a Monday night baseball game. But you
[14:47] Speaker 2: didn't have this explosion of cable until the later seventies,
[14:51] Speaker 2: so you just as a kid, it was the Sporting
[14:53] Speaker 2: News every week would give me the box scores, right,
[14:57] Speaker 2: That's what I would get, and then I would watch
[14:58] Speaker 2: the Saturday Game of the week.
[15:00] Speaker 4: This week in Baseball on Saturday mornings, right, because we
[15:04] Speaker 4: have ESPN Sports Center highlights, so if you want to
[15:06] Speaker 4: see what was going on around the rest of the league,
[15:08] Speaker 4: it was this week in Baseball, went Mel Allen.
[15:10] Speaker 2: That's right, That's absolutely right. And I also remember about
[15:14] Speaker 2: the Dodgers early then they formed this legendary infield of
[15:17] Speaker 2: Garvey and Lopes and Russell and say, but but I've
[15:23] Speaker 2: always said, the only athlete that I didn't get to
[15:25] Speaker 2: watch play because I got a little wilt, I got
[15:28] Speaker 2: some Rick Barry, I got seventy stars. Is Sandy Kofax.
[15:33] Speaker 2: It's really the only Dodger, is the only athlete in
[15:36] Speaker 2: my lifetime that I missed. And when you consider how
[15:41] Speaker 2: how short his career was, it's remarkable the standing he
[15:48] Speaker 2: is held at culturally physically. Did you I'm fascinated with
[15:54] Speaker 2: Kofax still living today, aged incredibly well. How much a
[16:02] Speaker 2: part of their foundational structure and growth and ascension is Colfax.
[16:07] Speaker 4: He certainly added to the Lord of the myths. He
[16:11] Speaker 4: was this kind of legendary figure, right, and it's only
[16:13] Speaker 4: enhanced when he sets out a world series game myth, right,
[16:17] Speaker 4: you know, because it fell on a Jewish holiday, right,
[16:19] Speaker 4: and so that elevates him, you know, an eternal hero
[16:22] Speaker 4: to the Jewish community. And you know, big story of
[16:24] Speaker 4: the Dodgers is how they incorporated so many different aspects
[16:27] Speaker 4: of la and America all represented in this team. Fernandomania
[16:31] Speaker 4: and the Latinos of course, Jackie Robinson, chan Ho Park
[16:35] Speaker 4: and of course you know Hdeo Nomo and now Sho
[16:39] Speaker 4: Hee Atani. So there's all that, you know, Sandy Kopax
[16:44] Speaker 4: is the pre eminent Jewish sports hero, right, So there's
[16:47] Speaker 4: that element his his just excellence on the field that
[16:51] Speaker 4: you know, kind of peaking when he throws that that
[16:53] Speaker 4: perfect game. And he was someone that again I didn't
[16:57] Speaker 4: get to see, but the reverence that the people that I.
[17:00] Speaker 3: Knew had for him made me review him.
[17:02] Speaker 4: I did get to see him throw out a first
[17:04] Speaker 4: pitch one day at Dodger Stadium and the roar when
[17:07] Speaker 4: he took the crowd his money. They sent out Magic
[17:09] Speaker 4: Johnson at first, and then he calls in for the
[17:12] Speaker 4: bullpen and Sandy Kopax comes out to throw out the
[17:15] Speaker 4: first pitch, and I can say, well, I saw Sandy
[17:17] Speaker 4: Kopax pitch at Dodger Stadium. Now, so we didn't get
[17:21] Speaker 4: him too him that much in the initial episode, but
[17:23] Speaker 4: we do a companion episode for everyone where we talked
[17:26] Speaker 4: to a figure from the history of this franchise. So
[17:28] Speaker 4: in this case, we talked to Haimi Heren, the Spanish
[17:30] Speaker 4: speaking version of Vin Scully.
[17:32] Speaker 3: You know, Yehix decades as.
[17:34] Speaker 4: The Dodger played by play broadcaster in Spanish language, and
[17:39] Speaker 4: I asked him about Kopax. Here's someone who was intimately
[17:41] Speaker 4: familiar with him, so it is fascinating asked him about
[17:43] Speaker 4: Kopax and Drysdale and he kind of talked about the
[17:46] Speaker 4: differences between the two and how Kofax was a little
[17:50] Speaker 4: harder to get to know as a broadcaster and as
[17:53] Speaker 4: a person. Kopax you know, not that he was aloof
[17:56] Speaker 4: for distance, but.
[17:57] Speaker 3: He just you know, was a little bit less successful
[18:00] Speaker 3: than Don Drysdale.
[18:01] Speaker 4: And how Kofax kind of talk to the stars on
[18:04] Speaker 4: the team, Drysdale kind of talked to the everyday players
[18:07] Speaker 4: and the journeyman. So that was a fascinating bit of
[18:09] Speaker 4: insight when we asked Timmy Heren about Kofax and Drysdale.
[18:13] Speaker 4: So those are the type of insight you know, we
[18:15] Speaker 4: try to satisfy our curiosity when we have those interviews
[18:18] Speaker 4: on in addition, when we're doing the research too, and
[18:21] Speaker 4: again we like to be surprised. It's, you know, there's
[18:24] Speaker 4: so much about the Dodgers that you know, for example,
[18:27] Speaker 4: Russell Lopes say, Garvey, right, that's the thing when you
[18:30] Speaker 4: think of the Dodgers, you think of that. So we
[18:31] Speaker 4: didn't spend a lot of time on that, but some
[18:34] Speaker 4: of the early early decisions, going way back to the
[18:37] Speaker 4: Brooklyn days, and then some of the things that we
[18:40] Speaker 4: didn't get a chance to experience that we can talk
[18:42] Speaker 4: to someone who can help explain us them. Just what
[18:44] Speaker 4: a blessing that Haimi Hereen in his nineties is still
[18:47] Speaker 4: so so lucid and was able to join us and
[18:50] Speaker 4: share his memories.
[18:54] Speaker 2: Today's show brought to you by our friends are presenting
[18:58] Speaker 2: sponsor hard Rock Bet. Just loved being their partner, Florida Sportsbook.
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[20:30] Speaker 2: It's fascinating deep dive. Sometimes sports fans will say you
[20:34] Speaker 2: don't give me enough depth and long form you're always
[20:36] Speaker 2: skimming into it headlines. Well, this is the opposite. They
[20:40] Speaker 2: go a mile deep on this stuff. I also want
[20:42] Speaker 2: to touch on something. The other day I heard Steve
[20:46] Speaker 2: Kerr talking about he played with Mjay and he faced
[20:49] Speaker 2: Lebron and he was talking about the differences. And I've
[20:52] Speaker 2: always said one of the things about Lebron he's got
[20:56] Speaker 2: great self awareness. So he was talking the other day
[21:00] Speaker 2: and I view Lebron and MJ like Messi and Ronaldo
[21:03] Speaker 2: or Federer, Nadal, Ali and Fraser both great, all great,
[21:08] Speaker 2: totally different Michael and Kobe. There's some magic with Lebron
[21:14] Speaker 2: distribution size for position. But MJ and Lebron are just
[21:18] Speaker 2: lumped together because they're great. And Lebron said the other
[21:21] Speaker 2: day he said, we have nothing in common. There are
[21:24] Speaker 2: things he does better than me. There are things I
[21:26] Speaker 2: do better than him. And Lebron said, and I know
[21:29] Speaker 2: that will be misconstrued by me saying that. And you know,
[21:34] Speaker 2: so Lebron's already got an understanding of the media. He's
[21:37] Speaker 2: always available. I've told the story where a couple of
[21:39] Speaker 2: years ago, I was at a film festival and I
[21:41] Speaker 2: wouldn't go up to him because I didn't want to
[21:43] Speaker 2: bother him. I still considered myself sort of a reporter.
[21:46] Speaker 2: He came over to me and, you know, just to
[21:49] Speaker 2: kind of connect, and I always thought he didn't have
[21:52] Speaker 2: to do that. It was cool. Otherwise we wouldn't have
[21:54] Speaker 2: to talk because I just kind of feel like I
[21:56] Speaker 2: give athletes their space. If I see him, I don't
[21:58] Speaker 2: want to bother them. But it's interesting. But the way
[22:02] Speaker 2: Kerr was talking about it, and I knew I was
[22:05] Speaker 2: going to interview you. Some of this Culturally with Michael
[22:09] Speaker 2: is there was no Instagram, there wasn't social media, There
[22:12] Speaker 2: wasn't really talk radio to this level. Michael was mysterious,
[22:17] Speaker 2: almost like Jack Nicholson forever wouldn't do when he had movies,
[22:21] Speaker 2: he wouldn't do interviews. I want you to pay to
[22:24] Speaker 2: see me. He was mysterious. He was dating people. He
[22:27] Speaker 2: lived in the Hollywood Hills. He didn't get to see
[22:29] Speaker 2: Jack except for the movies. He was this crazy actor.
[22:33] Speaker 2: Michael was largely hitting his hotel room on the road.
[22:37] Speaker 2: You didn't have a there was nowhere to see Michael.
[22:40] Speaker 2: He had guys around him and Lebron He's everywhere, these reacting.
[22:46] Speaker 2: I could tweet something. He would react back, and I
[22:49] Speaker 2: wonder if part of the popularity of Jordan he was
[22:53] Speaker 2: certainly good looking and cool and fashionable, is the fact
[22:56] Speaker 2: that he grew up in an era where we didn't
[22:59] Speaker 2: know everything about him. You covered him. Wasn't there some
[23:03] Speaker 2: mystery about Michael his entire time in Chicago.
[23:06] Speaker 4: I'll push back a little bit on that, and that
[23:08] Speaker 4: there's kind of two phases to his career. There's before
[23:11] Speaker 4: nineteen ninety one, when he wins the championship, and that's
[23:13] Speaker 4: also the same year be like Mike comes out, so
[23:16] Speaker 4: his fame gets elevated to a different level. And then
[23:19] Speaker 4: there's after, right, So the pre nineteen ninety one he
[23:23] Speaker 4: was a little more accessible. He's doing a Sunday Night
[23:25] Speaker 4: He's a regular guest on the Sunday Night Sports wrap
[23:28] Speaker 4: Up on the CBS affiliate here in Chicago.
[23:31] Speaker 3: He judged a.
[23:32] Speaker 4: Slam dunk contest at a Northwestern basketball game. He did
[23:36] Speaker 4: color commentary on the Illinois High school state championship game
[23:40] Speaker 4: on Sports Channel I think was the RSN back then.
[23:44] Speaker 3: So he did more normal stuff.
[23:47] Speaker 4: He was more accessible, and then he got to this
[23:50] Speaker 4: level of fame that was just Beatles level, right where
[23:53] Speaker 4: you're right calling he couldn't go out of his hotel
[23:56] Speaker 4: room on the road. He became trapped and imprisoned by
[23:59] Speaker 4: his fame. There's a great passage in the last dance
[24:01] Speaker 4: when he talks about what that became. So you know,
[24:04] Speaker 4: I remember the before and the after, so I don't
[24:08] Speaker 4: think of him as completely inaccessible. Because there was a time,
[24:12] Speaker 4: you know, when I first got to Chicago, even though
[24:14] Speaker 4: that was post nineteen ninety one, I wasn't covering the
[24:17] Speaker 4: Bulls yet, but I could still go up to a
[24:19] Speaker 4: shoot around or practice and ask Michael Jordan a question.
[24:22] Speaker 3: I was covering college basketball.
[24:23] Speaker 4: I remember I wanted to ask him about the shot
[24:25] Speaker 4: he made in New Orleans when he was in North
[24:27] Speaker 4: Carolina as a freshman who win a championship. So I
[24:29] Speaker 4: could go up and ask him that question. Even his
[24:32] Speaker 4: last year. There's a great picture of me and Rachel
[24:34] Speaker 4: Nichols walking alongside Michael after a shoot around when he's
[24:37] Speaker 4: playing for the Wizards in one of his final games,
[24:40] Speaker 4: and you could go up to him and talk to him.
[24:42] Speaker 3: So there was that. The key thing, Carlin that.
[24:45] Speaker 4: You mentioned was the lack of social media, and I
[24:48] Speaker 4: think Michael would have been picked apart in nitpick yet and.
[24:51] Speaker 3: Memed in a way.
[24:53] Speaker 4: I mean, he got memed enough just for crying and
[24:55] Speaker 4: shed in tears at his Hall of Famous feats, right,
[24:57] Speaker 4: So could you imagine the entirety of his care Every
[25:00] Speaker 4: time a camera caught him with making.
[25:02] Speaker 3: A funny face, it would be a meme.
[25:04] Speaker 4: So we probably wouldn't think of him as this exalted
[25:06] Speaker 4: Michael Jordan if we got to see him be more ordinary,
[25:10] Speaker 4: or caught him on a bad day or poorly lit picture.
[25:13] Speaker 4: The way that Lebron has played almost his entire career
[25:17] Speaker 4: in the social media are He's drafted in two thousand
[25:19] Speaker 4: and three. I think Twitter comes out in two thousand
[25:22] Speaker 4: and eight, so you know, he's had to live so
[25:24] Speaker 4: long in the social media era. I don't think Michael
[25:27] Speaker 4: Jordan would have held up as well as Lebron has
[25:29] Speaker 4: been able to held up if he'd been subject to
[25:32] Speaker 4: the same amount of public social media scrutiny.
[25:35] Speaker 2: You know, I think one of my favorite things about sports.
[25:38] Speaker 2: In fact, I know what's one of my favorite things.
[25:40] Speaker 2: Greg Olsen, the former Bears tight end, and I talked
[25:42] Speaker 2: about this today, is the cultural changes, the three ball revolution,
[25:47] Speaker 2: the tanking issue this year Nil's development. I have been
[25:52] Speaker 2: a big supporter of an IL. My take his athletes
[25:55] Speaker 2: deserve to be paid. Some of it's predictable when you
[25:58] Speaker 2: have dramatic change, transfer portal. I mean, it's the gold
[26:03] Speaker 2: rush anytime you have dramatic changes that are the opposite
[26:07] Speaker 2: of I mean, you can buy a high school player
[26:09] Speaker 2: that was the death penalty before ANIL. One day, it's
[26:12] Speaker 2: the death penalty the next day. It's not only legal,
[26:15] Speaker 2: but it's heavily promoted within the athletic department. So you're
[26:18] Speaker 2: going to have no guardrails early. NCAA doesn't have terribly
[26:21] Speaker 2: strong leadership historically, so it's been a wobbly path. I
[26:26] Speaker 2: like it for a lot of reasons. And one of
[26:28] Speaker 2: the reasons I like it is you can push back
[26:31] Speaker 2: on this. But I told Adam Silver this, I said,
[26:33] Speaker 2: you demonized for a long time college basketball. You create
[26:38] Speaker 2: the G League because there's this sense that kids aren't
[26:41] Speaker 2: being paid. The problem is it became a turnstile in
[26:45] Speaker 2: college basketball and nobody recognized the players. But the other
[26:48] Speaker 2: thing is the G League isn't like the NBA. If
[26:51] Speaker 2: you play at Michigan State or Duke or Carolina, you
[26:54] Speaker 2: play in hostile NBA like Arenas, the coaching's tougher, the
[26:59] Speaker 2: travel is better, closer to the media attention, the media attention.
[27:04] Speaker 2: It's an NBA. It's it's Triple A baseball in a
[27:08] Speaker 2: really good Triple A baseball town before you go to
[27:10] Speaker 2: the maritors. The G League is like AAU basketball with
[27:14] Speaker 2: a payment. It's it's going to track suit toe. I
[27:17] Speaker 2: mean Nick Nurse coasting it. But it's a lot of
[27:19] Speaker 2: you know, bad arenas. It feels like high school wrestling,
[27:22] Speaker 2: family and friends. And so my take is the G League.
[27:25] Speaker 2: I mean, ask yourself this, how many G League stars
[27:28] Speaker 2: are there in the NBA. It doesn't really work. It
[27:31] Speaker 2: was a money grab. It didn't help the player. So
[27:34] Speaker 2: my take is the NIL is mostly fantastic. But you're
[27:39] Speaker 2: at a college, you're at a university. You tell me
[27:43] Speaker 2: your thought. What do you hear from students? What do
[27:46] Speaker 2: you feel on a college campus about what NIL has
[27:49] Speaker 2: done to college sports?
[27:52] Speaker 4: So it hasn't changed. It like north Western basketball, which is,
[27:55] Speaker 4: you know, not a huge thing. It's it's it's been
[27:57] Speaker 4: more popular that the most fraudulent, you know, the greatest
[28:01] Speaker 4: fallacy that the NCAA tried to hoist on us was
[28:04] Speaker 4: that interest in college sports would be diminished if the
[28:07] Speaker 4: players were getting paid, is if them being impoverished was
[28:11] Speaker 4: essential to us liking and enjoying the sports, right and no,
[28:15] Speaker 4: we've seen, especially in college football, where the money really
[28:18] Speaker 4: is that, correct me if I'm wrong, But the ratings
[28:21] Speaker 4: are higher than ever for the you know, the the
[28:23] Speaker 4: NCLA playoffs, the college football playoffs and the championship games.
[28:26] Speaker 2: Right, the team the sports better you get twenty four
[28:30] Speaker 2: year old guys. It's a more sophisticated game.
[28:33] Speaker 3: You know.
[28:34] Speaker 4: And like the Mendoza story, do we get that if
[28:38] Speaker 4: we don't have nil? Probably not just the whole Indiana,
[28:42] Speaker 4: you know, this Cinderella story. But behind the scenes, there's
[28:45] Speaker 4: a lot of money involved, right, and yet it still
[28:47] Speaker 4: feels in some ways it's kind of wholesome and pure,
[28:50] Speaker 4: Like it's really encouraging and inspirational to see this program
[28:54] Speaker 4: go from nowhere to this undefeated championship season.
[28:58] Speaker 3: So I'll say it's funny.
[29:00] Speaker 4: I'm someone that's always advocated for paying the players and
[29:04] Speaker 4: allowing them to get their market value.
[29:06] Speaker 3: This is America.
[29:07] Speaker 4: Why was college sports the one avenue of America in
[29:09] Speaker 4: which we didn't want adults to make their market value.
[29:12] Speaker 4: And there was a meeting we had with the person
[29:16] Speaker 4: who was running the NIL collective for Northwestern, and he
[29:18] Speaker 4: had a zoom meeting to kind of explain things, and
[29:20] Speaker 4: he was just very matter of factly going down what
[29:23] Speaker 4: the going rate was for a quarterback, or what the
[29:25] Speaker 4: going rate even for you know, a women's lacrosse player
[29:27] Speaker 4: like our team is, you know, Parano national contender here,
[29:32] Speaker 4: And something about it felt unseemly to me, And even
[29:35] Speaker 4: though I'm in favor of it, just hearing college athletes
[29:39] Speaker 4: talked about in this very monetary fashion. There was a
[29:42] Speaker 4: story about somebody announcing that they were returning to school,
[29:46] Speaker 4: and the story recently college basketball player, and the story said,
[29:50] Speaker 4: you know, according to his agent.
[29:52] Speaker 3: And that's just I'm not used.
[29:54] Speaker 4: To that, Colin where we're just quoting the agents, and
[29:58] Speaker 4: you know there's no repercussions to it, right, that would
[30:00] Speaker 4: have been a loss of eligibility forever just for having
[30:03] Speaker 4: an agent not too long ago.
[30:05] Speaker 3: So it still requires some getting used to. I don't like.
[30:11] Speaker 4: It's increasingly transitory, right, you need this combination of NIL
[30:15] Speaker 4: plus the transfer portal.
[30:16] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the answer is further.
[30:19] Speaker 4: Professionalization, and let's just go all the way and just
[30:22] Speaker 4: call it what it is, professional sports, and allow them
[30:24] Speaker 4: to sign contracts two or three year contract where you
[30:27] Speaker 4: get some certainty for the players, and you get some
[30:30] Speaker 4: certainty for the schools and for the fan bases that
[30:33] Speaker 4: we know we're going to have this guy for three years.
[30:34] Speaker 4: Why because he signed a contract to play here for
[30:36] Speaker 4: three years.
[30:37] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[30:38] Speaker 2: I had a lot of friends traditionalists, and I said, guys,
[30:42] Speaker 2: you gotta let it go. The world changes. I mean,
[30:44] Speaker 2: Baseball's put a pitch clock in and an ABS system.
[30:47] Speaker 2: And I had friends who are a huge college football
[30:50] Speaker 2: fans will never watch again, and I said, everything's professional.
[30:53] Speaker 2: I mean they were paying football players in the South
[30:56] Speaker 2: through churches for years. I heard that. I heard a
[30:58] Speaker 2: story about Nick Saban stopped recruiting players from Mississippi if
[31:02] Speaker 2: they couldn't get a commitment early. That he if you
[31:05] Speaker 2: couldn't get them by a certain date, He's like, you're
[31:07] Speaker 2: not going to get them late. If you don't get
[31:09] Speaker 2: them early, it's there. They won't. They'll just do a
[31:12] Speaker 2: U turn. And by the way, he was proven right
[31:15] Speaker 2: as Ole miss got nabbed right Hugh Freeze. So I
[31:20] Speaker 2: want to. I want to end it with this because
[31:21] Speaker 2: I think it's fascinating. I've said this a lot of people.
[31:25] Speaker 2: I grew up child of divorce. I've moved a lot
[31:29] Speaker 2: with my wife. I'm not a traditionalist. I'm not necessarily
[31:32] Speaker 2: proud of of all the moves I've made, but it's
[31:34] Speaker 2: been for commerce or the right reasons, and it has
[31:37] Speaker 2: given my kids a look at different parts of America.
[31:40] Speaker 2: They're all very amenable to cultural changes and lifestyle changes,
[31:43] Speaker 2: and it's kind of a cool thing. But I understand
[31:47] Speaker 2: people journalists because I'm also a radio TV guy JA
[31:50] Speaker 2: and you work at multiple stations in one city. There's
[31:54] Speaker 2: not as many newspapers. I mean, even in the heyday
[31:56] Speaker 2: of newspapers, take out maybe in New York or maybe
[31:59] Speaker 2: a San Francisco or a DC, and you had a
[32:01] Speaker 2: paper and you worked there for a long long time.
[32:04] Speaker 2: Chicago was an outlier New York LA. I look at
[32:08] Speaker 2: sports journalism when people say it's over, and I think
[32:10] Speaker 2: I see substacks everywhere that are outstanding. I think the
[32:15] Speaker 2: athletic is outstanding. You're the director of sports journalism. I
[32:19] Speaker 2: see young podcasters, media critics, substackers, Ryan Glaspiegel and Ethan
[32:28] Speaker 2: Strauss to a podcast. It's my favorite forty five minute
[32:31] Speaker 2: walk podcast, and I look at it it both as
[32:34] Speaker 2: opinionated journalists. I think sometime. New York Times this year
[32:39] Speaker 2: two point eight billion dollars, nine and a half percent profit.
[32:43] Speaker 2: I've never read more. My first thing I do is
[32:45] Speaker 2: I get up in the morning. It's the New York Times,
[32:47] Speaker 2: It's the Wall Street Journal, It's the Athletic. I've never
[32:49] Speaker 2: read more. I take the train to work now, so
[32:51] Speaker 2: that probably is part of it. Where do you think
[32:54] Speaker 2: the state the state of journalism and sports journalism is.
[32:58] Speaker 2: I tend to be optimistic. I think I'm on an
[33:00] Speaker 2: island on that.
[33:01] Speaker 3: One well call.
[33:02] Speaker 4: I'm all differentiate between sports journalism and sports media, and
[33:06] Speaker 4: I'm an advocate for journalism. That's why I really wanted
[33:09] Speaker 4: direct with sports journalism in my title and non media,
[33:11] Speaker 4: because I think journalism is important right holding people to account.
[33:15] Speaker 4: We've still seen great works of journalism resulting in everything
[33:18] Speaker 4: from the explosion of the Jeffrey Epstein story to in sports,
[33:22] Speaker 4: you know, the sale of the Washington franchise, the sale
[33:24] Speaker 4: of the Phoenix Suns franchise, for example, the sale of
[33:27] Speaker 4: the Carolina Panthers franchise. You know, if you go back
[33:29] Speaker 4: the last I don't know, ten years or so, for
[33:31] Speaker 4: all those franchises, multi billion dollar transactions all took place
[33:36] Speaker 4: because of truths that were uncovered by journalism. Right, So
[33:41] Speaker 4: the opportunity two of those, or at least one of
[33:44] Speaker 4: those was Sports Illustrated with Carolina. You're not going to
[33:48] Speaker 4: see that investment in journalism from Sports Illustrated anymore. The
[33:51] Speaker 4: Washington Posts and their coverage of Dan Snyder, you know
[33:56] Speaker 4: you still have it was part news, part sports, but
[33:59] Speaker 4: the Washington Sports department is gone. So I fear for
[34:03] Speaker 4: the opportunity and I feel for journalism, like, who is
[34:07] Speaker 4: funding top notch journalism anymore? When the Washington Post basically
[34:11] Speaker 4: kind of a waved its hands at, you know, weighing
[34:15] Speaker 4: in on politics and holding the powerful to account in politics,
[34:19] Speaker 4: and then not long thereafter got rid of their great,
[34:22] Speaker 4: all time great sports section, that scares me for a journalism.
[34:27] Speaker 4: As far as sports media, the opportunity to work in
[34:30] Speaker 4: the sports media space, there are all those opportunities, right,
[34:34] Speaker 4: all these things that didn't exist. Podcasting didn't exist, the
[34:37] Speaker 4: fact that there's so many games and now we've got
[34:39] Speaker 4: you know. Three, let's say in the NBA, you've got
[34:41] Speaker 4: three national broadcasters, right, and the work that that creates
[34:46] Speaker 4: mainly behind the scenes. What I've really been pushing now
[34:49] Speaker 4: is there's so many jobs in the production trucks.
[34:51] Speaker 2: Now.
[34:52] Speaker 4: You know, there might be the same number of people
[34:54] Speaker 4: sitting in the booth calling the game, but there's so
[34:56] Speaker 4: many behind the scenes jobs in sports media podc casting,
[35:01] Speaker 4: social media working for teams or players or leagues, and
[35:05] Speaker 4: social media department. So there are all kinds of opportunities
[35:08] Speaker 4: in sports media. It's just how many people are committed
[35:12] Speaker 4: to doing sports journalism is the question. Nine.
[35:15] Speaker 2: Shout out to Pablo Tory, who is one of those
[35:17] Speaker 2: podcasters who we considered the volume of hiring him, and
[35:22] Speaker 2: he got very expensive and we were a young company,
[35:25] Speaker 2: but again, I think he's I think Pablo's always been
[35:28] Speaker 2: super sharp and a little bit of a disruptor in
[35:30] Speaker 2: terms of.
[35:30] Speaker 3: That, and that's what we needed, right.
[35:32] Speaker 4: And we'll see if something happens with the Clippers, But also,
[35:34] Speaker 4: you know, uncovering things that happen at the at the
[35:37] Speaker 4: NFL players Union, right, so bringing about change the type
[35:41] Speaker 4: of things that you wouldn't know. So yeah, and Pablo say,
[35:44] Speaker 4: he's representative of the shift.
[35:45] Speaker 3: Right.
[35:46] Speaker 4: Once upon a time, maybe he would have written those
[35:48] Speaker 4: things for Sports Illustrated. Now he's uncovering them as a podcaster.
[35:52] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. I think sometimes journalism now in sports
[35:56] Speaker 2: and news can be more independent feeling. Mia Pharaoh's son
[36:03] Speaker 2: names escaping me Ronan Pharaoh who is a New Yorker
[36:09] Speaker 2: magazine but feels to me feels very independent. It's like
[36:12] Speaker 2: he decides where he wants to go. So I think
[36:14] Speaker 2: there's tremendous work being done. And I also think people's
[36:19] Speaker 2: appetite shifts. You know, give you a great example. Craigslist
[36:24] Speaker 2: is what really killed newspapers because they lost a barstool
[36:27] Speaker 2: leg on the barstool, people can blames bar I always
[36:33] Speaker 2: thought Craigslist killed newspapers. It hurt the coverage. And by
[36:37] Speaker 2: the way, and then the Washington Post. People say, that's
[36:40] Speaker 2: a shame what happened to Washington Post. But in fairness,
[36:42] Speaker 2: Tony and Mike Wilbon left brilliant columnists. Okay, it's not
[36:47] Speaker 2: as good. They lost top editors. I remember Boston Globe
[36:51] Speaker 2: had Vince Doria. Vince Doria left to go to ESPN,
[36:55] Speaker 2: So I think a lot of these newspaper people, the
[36:57] Speaker 2: Mitch Albums, the Vince doria Is, the Mike and the
[36:59] Speaker 2: Tony And I'm there's dozens hundreds of people behind the
[37:03] Speaker 2: scenes that people don't see leave these great newspapers, often
[37:07] Speaker 2: for financial or scale opportunities, and they do weaken. I mean,
[37:12] Speaker 2: you can go back to the Washington Post when it
[37:14] Speaker 2: was it was McDonough, it was Peter Gammon's. I mean
[37:17] Speaker 2: it was like local. Yeah, I mean it was a
[37:21] Speaker 2: hall of well. A lot of those people leave and
[37:23] Speaker 2: there's greater opportunities. So and I also think newspapers became
[37:27] Speaker 2: clunky and ink on your hand, that stormy weather and
[37:30] Speaker 2: you bring it inside, and I think the world just
[37:32] Speaker 2: sort of changes. I believe there's brilliant people out there.
[37:36] Speaker 2: I see so many smart young people. We've hired them
[37:40] Speaker 2: at the volume, So I guess I would say I'm hopeful,
[37:44] Speaker 2: but I do think structurally it's changed. In fact, the
[37:47] Speaker 2: New York Times is a great example. They just like, hey,
[37:51] Speaker 2: we're going to kind of outsource it or buy our sports,
[37:54] Speaker 2: which it's a brilliant I mean, it's a brilliant idea
[37:57] Speaker 2: Washington Post management, it's clearly not a shrewd as the
[38:01] Speaker 2: New York Times. I would argue that Post sports section
[38:03] Speaker 2: died because the management is not very good there now
[38:06] Speaker 2: they had I mean, isn't that a I mean the
[38:09] Speaker 2: New York Times has been a better run business than
[38:13] Speaker 2: the La Times of the Washington Post. Has it?
[38:14] Speaker 4: Not?
[38:15] Speaker 3: Absolutely? I mean they figured it out.
[38:17] Speaker 4: Unfortunately, they figured out, you know, the way to have
[38:20] Speaker 4: a great journalism product is to sell stuff like the games, right,
[38:23] Speaker 4: and the recipes and all those type of things, right,
[38:26] Speaker 4: wordle and the crossrod puzzle, the course. So but you
[38:30] Speaker 4: know what they realize is, Okay, we can make a
[38:31] Speaker 4: lot of money that we can fund the journalism. And
[38:33] Speaker 4: not a lot of other news out lists discovered that
[38:37] Speaker 4: formula for, you know, having all the fun things to
[38:40] Speaker 4: pay for the serious stuff.
[38:42] Speaker 3: So there was that Colin.
[38:44] Speaker 4: I share your optimism and the fact that just at
[38:47] Speaker 4: our place right now, we've got thirty one students in
[38:50] Speaker 4: our sports specialization.
[38:51] Speaker 3: I've been here ten years. That's the most that we've
[38:52] Speaker 3: ever had.
[38:53] Speaker 4: I was talking to colleague today, said we're becoming a
[38:55] Speaker 4: sports program now to rival anyone. We're looking at potentially
[39:00] Speaker 4: the biggest class of freshmen in our undergraduate program I'm
[39:03] Speaker 4: talking over all journalism, not just sports, but in our
[39:06] Speaker 4: freshmen we could potentially have the biggest class in the
[39:09] Speaker 4: ten years since I've been here. So the interest in
[39:12] Speaker 4: people who still want to do this, who still want
[39:13] Speaker 4: to hold people accountable and do what I call you know,
[39:16] Speaker 4: telling true stories that would not otherwise be told. That's
[39:19] Speaker 4: what a journalist does. There's still a tremendous amount of interest.
[39:22] Speaker 4: And you could argue there's never been a greater need
[39:25] Speaker 4: for telling the truth. And I think we live in
[39:28] Speaker 4: a post truth society. So now the pivot right, the
[39:31] Speaker 4: lane that's open is telling the truth, finding ways to
[39:33] Speaker 4: uncover and tell the truth, and I think there's a
[39:35] Speaker 4: tremendous appetite for it. The thing that concerns me, Colin,
[39:39] Speaker 4: is that you look at the younger generation that the
[39:43] Speaker 4: study after study shows they get their news primarily through
[39:46] Speaker 4: social media, and they're not getting it from you and me,
[39:50] Speaker 4: and you know, people who have been doing this for
[39:52] Speaker 4: a long time, hopefully well trained and well versed in
[39:55] Speaker 4: how to do this, and experienced and well connected and
[39:57] Speaker 4: all those things. You know, peer younger people care more
[40:02] Speaker 4: about what their friends are sharing with them than what
[40:05] Speaker 4: the establishment is telling them and putting out there for
[40:09] Speaker 4: them to consume. And so if that can increases you know,
[40:12] Speaker 4: you're kind of a product of what you learn as
[40:15] Speaker 4: you grow up, and so you know, that's something that
[40:18] Speaker 4: can can scares me a little bit in terms of
[40:21] Speaker 4: the future just of telling truth then being a better
[40:24] Speaker 4: informed society, right, not even necessarily for the business of this,
[40:29] Speaker 4: but just for the sake of our society being well informed.
[40:32] Speaker 4: If we're eating at fast food restaurants, which is what
[40:34] Speaker 4: I call social media as opposed to the finer dining establishments.
[40:38] Speaker 2: All right, dynastic with Chuck Todd. I'm gonna deep dive it.
[40:42] Speaker 2: Great seeing and talking to you is we're in the
[40:44] Speaker 2: same city now we should probably ground o.
[40:45] Speaker 3: We got to get together. We got to go to
[40:47] Speaker 3: your spot. I know we talked about as a Super Bowl.
[40:49] Speaker 3: You know, we'll go to our sushi spot there that
[40:52] Speaker 3: you and I both like. But we haven't been there together.
[40:54] Speaker 3: So let's hit that up. Colin.
[40:56] Speaker 2: Good seeing you great, see you.
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