# Prime Cuts - NBA Teams HAVE To Tank, NBA Players Are TOO Good Now, Crazy Sports Gambling Stories

An episode of [The Colin Cowherd Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1551365571), 21 Feb 2026, 47 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/arttrk.com/p/D5CA5/pscrb.fm/rss/p/prfx.byspotify.com/e/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/4013d28e-5f67-4885-bff1-ae3300346830/1a738864-0cd0-479f-8aeb-b3f800062f2a/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=e829cf60-fc06-4d61-8691-ae330034683e

Colin’s top takes of the week. First, he’s joined by Danny Parkins, host of “First Thing’s First” on FS1. They begin with tanking in the NBA and Colin argues that he’s pro-tanking because it’s the only way to turn your franchise around since it’s so difficult to trade star players in the NBA (2:30). They agree that NBA players have gotten so good at shooting 3’s, it’s led to a less visually appealing product for the fans that makes the regular season tough to watch (10:45) and they debate potential fixes (23:30). Then, joined by Art Manteris, a veteran bookmaker, to discuss sports gambling. They dive into some of the wildest sports gambling stories ever told — from massive celebrity bets to shocking moments involving Mike Tyson and others (30:00). (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Volume See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The volume.
[0:10] Speaker 2: Well, John Middlecoff's a busy guy, and John Middlecoff deserves
[0:16] Speaker 2: an occasional cocktail and sitting by the pool because living
[0:20] Speaker 2: in Arizona, he doesn't get any of those. So Danny parkins,
[0:25] Speaker 2: our guy is joining us. So one of the topics
[0:31] Speaker 2: of the week has been the tanking in the NBA.
[0:34] Speaker 2: So I think sometimes you have to take a telescope
[0:38] Speaker 2: and flip it. I am pro tanking because here's what
[0:42] Speaker 2: we both would agree on. What's happening in America. There's
[0:45] Speaker 2: a lot more options. There's a lot of streaming services,
[0:50] Speaker 2: there's a lot to watch tiktoks and platforms. We're a
[0:53] Speaker 2: distracted nation, and so what I'm about to say, everybody knows.
[0:59] Speaker 2: Over the last ten years, events do really well. Baseball
[1:02] Speaker 2: found this out when they started doing, you know, baseball
[1:05] Speaker 2: games in a cornfield, baseball games in Europe, home run
[1:08] Speaker 2: Derby World Series actually.
[1:10] Speaker 3: Do really well. It's that minutia.
[1:13] Speaker 2: It's the regular season that hockey, NBA and baseball can struggle.
[1:17] Speaker 2: That's why I believe dynasties. I believe the opposite of
[1:21] Speaker 2: what Adam Silver does. Football doesn't matter. College and pro
[1:25] Speaker 2: football don't matter. It's once a week. World Cup doesn't matter.
[1:28] Speaker 2: Every four years, Olympics don't matter. But in Monday through
[1:32] Speaker 2: Friday sports long regular season. Now, the David Stern approach
[1:36] Speaker 2: works better because a distracted nation isn't tuning in parody.
[1:42] Speaker 2: They're not going to tune in parody. So I want,
[1:44] Speaker 2: I want.
[1:45] Speaker 3: That's my first take.
[1:46] Speaker 2: My second take is what makes the NFL great is
[1:50] Speaker 2: Mike Rabel and the Patriots can spend two hundred and
[1:52] Speaker 2: seventy million and go from unwatchable to the super Bowl. Now,
[1:56] Speaker 2: they got some breaks along the way, and they weren't
[1:59] Speaker 2: as good as Seattle. You can't do that in the NBA.
[2:01] Speaker 2: I mean, you know with the Bulls, you can't. You
[2:04] Speaker 2: can't trade people. I mean, if a franchise is like, listen,
[2:08] Speaker 2: we want to get rid of an aging star, and
[2:10] Speaker 2: the Bulls are like, ooh, love to but they're young.
[2:13] Speaker 3: They don't. They'd have to. They wouldn't know how.
[2:15] Speaker 2: To cobble together enough players or bring in a third
[2:17] Speaker 2: team to get it done. And so the only way
[2:21] Speaker 2: to go from bad to good.
[2:22] Speaker 3: Is the Spurs.
[2:23] Speaker 2: You tank and get Stefan Castle, you tank and get Wemby.
[2:27] Speaker 2: Then you make another because they're very inexpensive. For the
[2:29] Speaker 2: first several years, you make another couple moves to get
[2:32] Speaker 2: your you know, you're a darn fox or you and
[2:35] Speaker 2: all of a sudden you look up and you're like, oh,
[2:36] Speaker 2: we go from like twenty four wins to thirty eight
[2:40] Speaker 2: to fifty six. And so I don't know if you
[2:43] Speaker 2: can solve tanking outside of taking away draft picks, which
[2:46] Speaker 2: seems really punitive since there's only two rounds, and if
[2:50] Speaker 2: you're going to make trading impossible, how else do you go.
[2:54] Speaker 2: I think utahs on the precipice of being very interesting
[2:57] Speaker 2: in the next year, how they've been awful three years.
[3:01] Speaker 2: So I guess my take is dynasties. We could start
[3:05] Speaker 2: with either one. Dynasties actually make much more sense now
[3:09] Speaker 2: than they did in the seventies when we were less distracted.
[3:12] Speaker 2: And I'm okay with tanking if the rules currently disallow
[3:16] Speaker 2: big sweeping trades for the Wizards to become OKAC within
[3:20] Speaker 2: two years, which you can't do that now.
[3:24] Speaker 3: Okay, So, as always, there's there's a lot there. Well,
[3:28] Speaker 3: let's let's park the dynasty thing for maybe a little
[3:31] Speaker 3: bit later. We've talked about that a lot in baseball,
[3:34] Speaker 3: and like, I agree that the power of dynasties that
[3:37] Speaker 3: the Chiefs became the team that all of the NFL
[3:40] Speaker 3: network executives want and it replaced the Cowboys because they
[3:43] Speaker 3: are a dynasty. So you and I are an agreement,
[3:45] Speaker 3: and I think the data backs it up as fact,
[3:47] Speaker 3: like dynasties work. The trade point is an interesting one
[3:52] Speaker 3: because we actually just saw at this deadline, like Washington
[3:56] Speaker 3: now has Trey Young and Anthony Davis, Like some of
[4:00] Speaker 3: the free agent rules have actually made it where it's
[4:02] Speaker 3: easier for you to retain your guys with you know,
[4:05] Speaker 3: the bird rights and you can go over the cap
[4:07] Speaker 3: to sign your own players and things like that. That, Like,
[4:10] Speaker 3: I think that free agent, like good players leaving in
[4:12] Speaker 3: free agency is gonna is gonna decrease, which to your point,
[4:15] Speaker 3: makes the draft even more important. But the tanking thing,
[4:22] Speaker 3: I don't know how you can say you're okay with
[4:24] Speaker 3: what Utah is doing. This is it's so we're recording
[4:30] Speaker 3: this the night of the All Star Game. They are
[4:34] Speaker 3: sitting players in the fourth quarter of games. That it is.
[4:39] Speaker 3: It is anti competition, it is anti sport, like the
[4:44] Speaker 3: is it the biggest deal in the world are there.
[4:46] Speaker 3: I do think there are bigger problems with the NBA,
[4:48] Speaker 3: and I'd love to do like a global conversation about
[4:51] Speaker 3: all of it with you, But like I don't know
[4:53] Speaker 3: how you can say, because like in this case, it's
[4:56] Speaker 3: Utah against Orlando, Utah against Miami and nobody really cares.
[5:00] Speaker 3: But what if it was a team that we did
[5:02] Speaker 3: care about? And I would imagine that the fifteen thousand
[5:05] Speaker 3: fans that bought tickets to those games would would care
[5:09] Speaker 3: about it. It is a these are sports man, it's
[5:13] Speaker 3: an entertainment product. Well, you can't have the games mean nothing,
[5:17] Speaker 3: Well have to meet something.
[5:18] Speaker 2: But I think the Utah fans, who almost have a
[5:21] Speaker 2: collegiate feel because it's a smaller NBA market, I think
[5:23] Speaker 2: they're in on it. I think they know it. I
[5:25] Speaker 2: don't think I think they go to the games and
[5:27] Speaker 2: enjoy it with their friends. But if you ask them
[5:30] Speaker 2: you can get the number two pick or the number fourteen,
[5:33] Speaker 2: they would take the number two. So you can play,
[5:36] Speaker 2: So you can play the young guys, compete as much
[5:38] Speaker 2: as you can with the young guys. But I mean,
[5:41] Speaker 2: Utah has been bad for several years. What's another twelve
[5:44] Speaker 2: games or twenty six games at the end of the year.
[5:47] Speaker 3: I mean, I you could. I mean again, it's only
[5:49] Speaker 3: a two.
[5:50] Speaker 2: Round draft, so people say we're gonna take We're gonna
[5:53] Speaker 2: take draft picks away Spygate and deflate gate. You only
[5:56] Speaker 2: took one pick. If you took fifty percent of people's picks, Okay,
[6:01] Speaker 2: we're taking a first round pick, well, then that bad
[6:03] Speaker 2: team has even less chance.
[6:05] Speaker 3: To get good. But don't you think you want like
[6:09] Speaker 3: I want to say. I want to say this before
[6:10] Speaker 3: we get anything more into it, because I've heard a
[6:12] Speaker 3: lot of the conversation over the last week because it
[6:15] Speaker 3: seems like what happens in our business is we are
[6:17] Speaker 3: so football centric, and then the Super Bowl ends and
[6:22] Speaker 3: we deconstruct it for a day or two, and then
[6:24] Speaker 3: we immediately pivot to the NBA and we kind of
[6:27] Speaker 3: parachute in and we're like problems with the NBA, whether
[6:30] Speaker 3: it's tanking, three point shooting, injuries, load management, like whatever
[6:34] Speaker 3: the issue of the day is. This year, because of
[6:37] Speaker 3: the Utah example, literally sitting players unapologetically in the fourth
[6:41] Speaker 3: quarter before the All Star break, we all seized on
[6:44] Speaker 3: the tanking thing. You and I have some disagreements here
[6:46] Speaker 3: one thing I do want to say, though, amainst all
[6:49] Speaker 3: the complaining the talent is so unbelievable. Yes, like the
[6:53] Speaker 3: league has so many things going for it. Yeah, like
[6:57] Speaker 3: Katie and Steph and Lebron not only are still here,
[7:00] Speaker 3: they're all still awesome. They are ambassadors of the sport.
[7:05] Speaker 3: They are advocates for the sport. They love hoopin. They're
[7:09] Speaker 3: still great players on competitive varying degrees of competitive teams.
[7:13] Speaker 3: Like you know, I don't know that. I don't think
[7:16] Speaker 3: the Lakers can win a title. I don't think that
[7:18] Speaker 3: the Warriors can win a title. But they we are
[7:20] Speaker 3: going to see those guys play basketball beyond the regular
[7:24] Speaker 3: season into their late thirties or, in Lebron's case, early forties.
[7:28] Speaker 3: It's a miracle. They're unbelievably talented. And I think one
[7:32] Speaker 3: of the biggest problems with the sport is actually counterintuitive,
[7:37] Speaker 3: and it's that the players have gotten too good. I
[7:39] Speaker 3: think they have broken the game. They're so good at
[7:43] Speaker 3: shooting threes that it is so easy for them to
[7:47] Speaker 3: do it that the sport has become a jump shooting contest.
[7:53] Speaker 3: Fifty three, sixty three, seventy three is a game, and
[7:56] Speaker 3: it makes it less exciting, yes, because I like to
[7:59] Speaker 3: see them done can fly and do the things that
[8:01] Speaker 3: I can't. Stunk, I can hit a three point shot. Okay,
[8:04] Speaker 3: So it's and then that has led to you've got
[8:08] Speaker 3: to defend all over the place more right, So they
[8:10] Speaker 3: got to run more guys are rupturing their achilles, and
[8:13] Speaker 3: then they were tired. So they have to say you
[8:15] Speaker 3: and ize it's all connected together. Okay, So you and
[8:19] Speaker 3: I agree.
[8:19] Speaker 2: I said this last week twice every year at this time,
[8:23] Speaker 2: we bang on the NBA and I and I said,
[8:27] Speaker 2: playoffs will start. I'll totally be engaged. The game will
[8:30] Speaker 2: become much more of a mid rain game than a
[8:32] Speaker 2: three point game, because it becomes get a stop, get
[8:35] Speaker 2: a basket in close games late, you just you get
[8:37] Speaker 2: sometimes you just need a basket. That's why Kawhi Leonard
[8:40] Speaker 2: is an irrelevant regular season player, but he's been such
[8:43] Speaker 2: a great postseason player because he gets stops and he
[8:46] Speaker 2: gets twos.
[8:47] Speaker 3: So Butler, that's the first thing.
[8:50] Speaker 2: So I think, I I don't know if I said
[8:52] Speaker 2: this to you, but I said it to somebody.
[8:55] Speaker 3: Of all.
[8:55] Speaker 2: I just I'm watching right now, a great documentary. I'm
[8:59] Speaker 2: through the first two episode. There's four. It's called Soul Power.
[9:03] Speaker 2: It is a four part documentary on the ABA. It
[9:06] Speaker 2: is fantastic. I mean, I don't know where they got
[9:11] Speaker 2: the video. So much of it I knew because I
[9:13] Speaker 2: started watching sports in late nineteen seventy one. That's the
[9:17] Speaker 2: time Spencer Haywood and the Doctor J. That's why Spencer
[9:21] Speaker 2: Haywod and Doctor J are my first two basketball memories
[9:23] Speaker 2: because I was like, I was like seven years old
[9:26] Speaker 2: and I remember, you know, seeing Doctor J, who was
[9:28] Speaker 2: my first favorite basketball player.
[9:31] Speaker 3: So they have video.
[9:33] Speaker 2: Apparently the ABA, I didn't know this had a huge
[9:35] Speaker 2: fight problem. I don't know where they got the video.
[9:37] Speaker 2: There must be twenty pieces of video of fistfights. Like
[9:40] Speaker 2: it's hockey without the helmets. It's just Haymakers guys laying
[9:44] Speaker 2: on the floor. It's so but that's where the three
[9:48] Speaker 2: point shot came from. But my point has always been, Danny,
[9:52] Speaker 2: that basketball was the sport of artistry and culture and
[9:55] Speaker 2: sometimes politics, starting with Spencer Haywood going to the Supreme Court.
[9:59] Speaker 3: That was the.
[10:00] Speaker 2: NFL was corporate baseball was the summer sport. You could
[10:05] Speaker 2: go have a beer, you didn't care who won, right
[10:07] Speaker 2: unless you were a diehard.
[10:09] Speaker 3: Basketball was the cool sport.
[10:10] Speaker 4: It was the.
[10:11] Speaker 2: Afroze, it was the dunking. That's why the ABA became
[10:15] Speaker 2: a threat to the NBA. The NBA was overcoached. It
[10:18] Speaker 2: was like college basketball. It was overcoached, it was rigid.
[10:21] Speaker 2: There was limitations, sadly on how many African American players
[10:25] Speaker 2: can play in the team. And the ABA is like
[10:27] Speaker 2: flavor and dunking and threes and tricolored ball, and it
[10:30] Speaker 2: was like, well, that's what we like. Here's the problem
[10:33] Speaker 2: with the three. The three has reduced dominant centers with
[10:38] Speaker 2: quirky games, mid range games. If Michael Jordan played today,
[10:42] Speaker 2: he'd shoot thirteen threes a game. Do you outside of
[10:46] Speaker 2: the Blazer Finals, do you ever remember seeing him shoot
[10:50] Speaker 2: a three that mattered in a game or a highlight.
[10:52] Speaker 3: We've seen no.
[10:55] Speaker 2: So I've argued this, we have taken all these art
[10:58] Speaker 2: It's the one sport of art, it's the artist resport,
[11:03] Speaker 2: and we've taken the artistry out of it. Now, outside
[11:07] Speaker 2: of Steph whose game is fundamentally based on the three,
[11:10] Speaker 2: we've taken Aunt Edwards Wemby just shoot a bunch of threes.
[11:13] Speaker 2: Ant is the closest thing to MJ we've had.
[11:16] Speaker 3: If you took.
[11:17] Speaker 2: Kawi's hand size and Ant, you kind of have MJ.
[11:22] Speaker 2: And I mean Ant's just he shoots eleven ten to
[11:25] Speaker 2: nine threes. Wemby too many threes. So if you took
[11:28] Speaker 2: the three point line in the bench, you did not
[11:30] Speaker 2: have to defend the corner. You could more easily defend
[11:33] Speaker 2: the arch three. Those players would move inside. What happens
[11:38] Speaker 2: when you have a mid range game more physicality. Guys
[11:41] Speaker 2: aren't chasing people down, they're defending them ass on ass
[11:45] Speaker 2: hip on hip, shoulder on shoulder. What do we like
[11:47] Speaker 2: about the NBA playoffs? It's physical, It's like men battling.
[11:52] Speaker 2: Fans get into it. So I think the arc, the
[11:55] Speaker 2: three point shot into the bench reduces all these soft
[12:00] Speaker 2: these these injuries people are complaining about. Where the pace
[12:04] Speaker 2: is so fast, centers are running to the corner. It
[12:07] Speaker 2: would become a more physical game. But I think malice
[12:11] Speaker 2: in the palace terrifies the league. And there's something about
[12:15] Speaker 2: making the game less physical for a big portion of
[12:17] Speaker 2: the regular season. And I agree with you, it's hard
[12:20] Speaker 2: and repetitive to watch. Yeah, to me, that is so
[12:24] Speaker 2: there's there's the health of the players. There's the tanking,
[12:28] Speaker 2: there is load management, which is caught up in both
[12:31] Speaker 2: of them. But to me, the biggest issue is the
[12:34] Speaker 2: is the style of play.
[12:35] Speaker 3: But again, I want to every time I say it,
[12:37] Speaker 3: like I do want to say, I love the game,
[12:39] Speaker 3: I respect their talent, and the playoffs are amazing. What
[12:43] Speaker 3: bothers me a little bit. I think the end season
[12:47] Speaker 3: tournament was a really interesting idea. We've talked about it before,
[12:50] Speaker 3: taken from the Premier League, and it's guys clearly play harder.
[12:54] Speaker 3: There's a trophy on the line, it means something, and
[12:56] Speaker 3: I think it will only grow in its relevance here.
[12:59] Speaker 3: But what I wish they would have done with it
[13:01] Speaker 3: is it I wish that the mid season the nd
[13:03] Speaker 3: season tournament, instead of a different court, we had different
[13:06] Speaker 3: rules so we could experiment with some of this stuff. Yeah, Like,
[13:10] Speaker 3: I don't hundred I don't one hundred percent know if
[13:13] Speaker 3: what you just said is correct about eliminating the corner
[13:16] Speaker 3: three or if like we would just see a lot
[13:20] Speaker 3: more like eighteen foot jumper. Yeah, I don't know. I
[13:23] Speaker 3: think you're right, but I don't know. So I want
[13:26] Speaker 3: to see it, Like, you know what I mean, like,
[13:27] Speaker 3: I want to see, would it be better if we
[13:31] Speaker 3: had a trapezoidal uh like international style lane instead of
[13:36] Speaker 3: too vertical to force uh like more crashing of the
[13:41] Speaker 3: boards and put backs and things like that, like more
[13:43] Speaker 3: offensive rebounds. Like I'm I would be very interested in
[13:48] Speaker 3: like them Baseball did it. Yeah, But what people miss
[13:52] Speaker 3: about what Baseball did. People give Rob Manford a lot
[13:55] Speaker 3: of credit, and that's like mostly right. But Rob Manford
[14:00] Speaker 3: employed theo Epstein. Theo Epstein's a genius and he really
[14:05] Speaker 3: cares about the game. And when theo was running the
[14:07] Speaker 3: Red Sox and the Cubs, his whole thing was like,
[14:10] Speaker 3: how do I exploit the rules to win? It wasn't
[14:15] Speaker 3: in the best interest of the sport to strike out more,
[14:19] Speaker 3: walk more, hit more homews. It's boring. But as soon
[14:22] Speaker 3: as he got hired by Major League Baseball as a consultant,
[14:25] Speaker 3: he tried to start closing those loopholes. More stolen bases
[14:29] Speaker 3: ball and play more you know, three batter rules, all
[14:33] Speaker 3: those sort of things to like to try to force
[14:35] Speaker 3: some action into the game. Pitchclock obviously being the biggest
[14:38] Speaker 3: ones worked and it's worked, but that wasn't like Rob
[14:42] Speaker 3: Manfred's genius. He needed like a basketball person. And so
[14:46] Speaker 3: I feel like the NBA, they have so much goddamn
[14:51] Speaker 3: money and the television contracts are so good that they
[14:54] Speaker 3: look around and they're like, well, our playoffs are awesome,
[14:56] Speaker 3: our talent is awesome, and our money is awesome. Right,
[14:59] Speaker 3: and all of the those things are undeniably true, But
[15:03] Speaker 3: do you have like a basketball like I'd be higher
[15:08] Speaker 3: Lebron when he retires and be like, Okay, honestly, what
[15:14] Speaker 3: is the best way to improve the on court product?
[15:18] Speaker 3: What do you like about high school ball, college ball,
[15:22] Speaker 3: international ball, the NBA. You're a historian of the game,
[15:25] Speaker 3: the old NBA, Like what is the best version of
[15:29] Speaker 3: this sport? And how do we get there? And how
[15:32] Speaker 3: do we get to it? And like really have hard
[15:35] Speaker 3: conversations about what you can do to it. And you know,
[15:39] Speaker 3: Bill Simmons had a great rant about all of this stuff,
[15:41] Speaker 3: and I listened to his pod and I agreed with
[15:43] Speaker 3: some of it, disagree with some of it, but like
[15:45] Speaker 3: he seems to believe that you could do seventy games,
[15:48] Speaker 3: but the owners wouldn't want to give back the money,
[15:51] Speaker 3: so expand like the NBA, absolutely, you watch this sport.
[15:59] Speaker 3: Guys sit out because of injury, real or imagined, and
[16:05] Speaker 3: guys you've never heard of come in and drop thirty
[16:09] Speaker 3: like it's nothing. There's absolutely enough basketball talent in the
[16:13] Speaker 3: world to fill to fill thirty two teams. And so
[16:18] Speaker 3: if you went to thirty two teams and added Seattle
[16:21] Speaker 3: in Vegas, that would increase revenue. Then cut back to
[16:26] Speaker 3: seventy games, give the players a little bit more rest,
[16:28] Speaker 3: they play more, they stay healthier. I feel like that
[16:32] Speaker 3: is an obvious fix for the league here. That doesn't
[16:35] Speaker 3: solve every problem, but it solves a lot of problems.
[16:38] Speaker 2: And the other thing is Baseball made these changes, and
[16:41] Speaker 2: for years they were reticent to do so because it's
[16:43] Speaker 2: a game of history and lore and you know, tradition.
[16:47] Speaker 2: Basketball is not. There's an old saying in sports. NBA
[16:50] Speaker 2: thinks of it first, NFL gets it right, Baseball makes
[16:54] Speaker 2: the most money on it. Basketball. I mean, David Stern
[16:57] Speaker 2: changed the texture of the and didn't tell the players
[17:01] Speaker 2: he came out. I remember that it was just outrageously
[17:04] Speaker 2: a bad idea. Then they pushed sleeves on uniforms and
[17:07] Speaker 2: some people thought that was to hide tattoos that looked dumb.
[17:11] Speaker 2: So I mean the NBA's and David Stearn's largely considered
[17:14] Speaker 2: almost a maverick, a highly successful commissioner. He took big
[17:17] Speaker 2: swings and missed. So I think I do think in
[17:22] Speaker 2: life and in business, when the money's good people, it
[17:25] Speaker 2: absolves you of change. And I do think I agree
[17:29] Speaker 2: with you. I think that the David Stern used to
[17:32] Speaker 2: tell like networks like ESPN, listen, guys, nobody watches our
[17:36] Speaker 2: regular season.
[17:36] Speaker 3: They never have.
[17:37] Speaker 2: That's the dirty little secret of this business. But I
[17:40] Speaker 2: think there's more media critics and more people bagging on basketball.
[17:44] Speaker 2: I think it just needs a few tweaks. I would
[17:46] Speaker 2: tweak the three point game, make it more situational, make
[17:49] Speaker 2: it more about contact and physicality. You do that by
[17:52] Speaker 2: just take out the corner threes. Make the three arcle
[17:54] Speaker 2: right in the bench. And I also people can bag
[17:58] Speaker 2: on tanking. All they want is that's why San Antonio
[18:01] Speaker 2: is going to have a twelve year run. By the way,
[18:03] Speaker 2: if you go back to their you know, how did
[18:05] Speaker 2: they get dunk and David Robinson. They were the first tankers.
[18:08] Speaker 2: By the way, remember when David Stern was around, and
[18:11] Speaker 2: they wouldn't play like in big Sunday games. They would
[18:14] Speaker 2: be at home and San Antonio and I think it
[18:17] Speaker 2: was Saturday night and they wanted to reward their fans,
[18:19] Speaker 2: and then on.
[18:19] Speaker 3: Sundays like it's a travel day.
[18:21] Speaker 2: I'm not playing Monogenobili and Tony Parker in the league.
[18:25] Speaker 2: David Stern got on the phone and barked at everybody ownership.
[18:28] Speaker 3: Now, but the it's the same conversation, but we're talking
[18:33] Speaker 3: slightly past you. It is smart, Yes, I am not
[18:38] Speaker 3: going to say that tanking isn't smart. Sam Presty tanked
[18:42] Speaker 3: in order to get some of the picks that he
[18:43] Speaker 3: got right like the Spurs. As you've mentioned, it's undeniably
[18:48] Speaker 3: the right strategy. The question should be again like should
[18:51] Speaker 3: it be allowed? Like in baseball it was the right strategy.
[18:55] Speaker 3: A strikeout is not as bad as we think. Yeah,
[18:58] Speaker 3: swing hard because home runs are so valuable. It's okay
[19:01] Speaker 3: if you hit two twenty, if you hit forty bombs.
[19:04] Speaker 3: I'd rather you hit two twenty with forty bombs than
[19:07] Speaker 3: hit two sixty with twenty four bombs, even though two
[19:10] Speaker 3: sixty with twenty four bombs. Ball and play more and
[19:12] Speaker 3: more action, more visually appealing product but you score more
[19:16] Speaker 3: runs if you hit the ball over the wall. So
[19:18] Speaker 3: they did things to kind of move it, move it
[19:21] Speaker 3: away from that to have more action in the sport.
[19:24] Speaker 3: Like and so again like I what's wrong with the rule?
[19:28] Speaker 3: This is just a it's a very simple. You can't
[19:31] Speaker 3: pick in the top four in back to back years
[19:34] Speaker 3: like baseball has. That's okay, I'm okay, Like like like
[19:39] Speaker 3: baseball has that, Like you the White Sox a couple
[19:42] Speaker 3: of years ago had the worst record, but they had
[19:44] Speaker 3: picked in the top whatever it was, so they had
[19:46] Speaker 3: to pick like eleventh that year. Like, just just make
[19:49] Speaker 3: it so that Utah fans and even if you're right
[19:52] Speaker 3: that they are like okay with it because it's a
[19:54] Speaker 3: path to it. It's still at some point this is competition.
[19:59] Speaker 3: It's sports. You got you got to play the game
[20:01] Speaker 3: to win or else what the hell are we doing?
[20:03] Speaker 2: And Danny, why your reason your belief could make sense
[20:08] Speaker 2: is about three years ago because of the nil where
[20:14] Speaker 2: American university is now buy fifteen excellent euros and they
[20:18] Speaker 2: pull them off their European teams and kids are now
[20:21] Speaker 2: staying in college. Absolutely, we see it in football all
[20:24] Speaker 2: the time. Now there's six year players. The truth is now,
[20:27] Speaker 2: last year's draft was excellent. This year's draft is legendary.
[20:31] Speaker 2: The drafts now are much better. I mean this past draft,
[20:33] Speaker 2: you get down to Ace Bailey at like six, the
[20:36] Speaker 2: first six are like no miss, and then you go
[20:39] Speaker 2: from like seven to eighteen and you're like, well, those
[20:42] Speaker 2: guys will all start at some point in the NBA.
[20:44] Speaker 2: So I think that idea sticks to me because the
[20:49] Speaker 2: draft's going to get much better. When that Yukon team
[20:52] Speaker 2: won a couple of years ago, it was the first time,
[20:53] Speaker 2: in my opinion, in twenty years maybe since the Florida
[20:56] Speaker 2: Gators won back to back. Remember they had Corey Brewer,
[20:59] Speaker 2: Yo Kim Noah Jo. That was a good team and
[21:03] Speaker 2: then we went out how many years it was until
[21:05] Speaker 2: the Yukon championship.
[21:06] Speaker 3: You're like, this isn't this isn't great.
[21:10] Speaker 2: But that Yukon team one and I'm like, shit, there's
[21:12] Speaker 2: seven NBA guys they're like playing, they're long the I
[21:16] Speaker 2: mean they got they got like the Saban Alabama teams.
[21:19] Speaker 2: You're like, they have sixteen NFL guys playing. The Yukon
[21:22] Speaker 2: Team's like that's when I went okay. This the transfer
[21:27] Speaker 2: portal and all this stuff that we're starting to see now,
[21:29] Speaker 2: like this is really like it was when I used
[21:31] Speaker 2: to watch Latner and Bobby Hurley and Grant Hill. You're like,
[21:34] Speaker 2: there's like four NBA guys on this team and two
[21:37] Speaker 2: guys off the bench will be NBA guys next year.
[21:39] Speaker 2: So I think you're I think it works with you.
[21:42] Speaker 2: The No, you don't get a top four pick, but
[21:44] Speaker 2: picks five through fourteen are going to be starters in
[21:47] Speaker 2: the NBA. Now, I don't necessarily we had drafts where
[21:49] Speaker 2: it was Anthony Bennett was the number one pick. I mean,
[21:52] Speaker 2: we had the Victor Oladipot draft. You're like, I'm not
[21:55] Speaker 2: sure there's a guy in like three out of four drafts.
[21:58] Speaker 2: You're like, this is just nobody here.
[22:01] Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I could. I completely agree, and so I
[22:03] Speaker 3: just I again, I think that there's just I think
[22:05] Speaker 3: that that's one thing.
[22:07] Speaker 4: I think.
[22:07] Speaker 3: Uh, the pick protections on trades are a little this.
[22:13] Speaker 3: You can trade a first round pick, but it's top
[22:15] Speaker 3: twenty protected. It's it's like shrink that way down, like
[22:20] Speaker 3: because right now Utah they the reason that they need
[22:23] Speaker 3: to tank so aggressively is because if they pick outside
[22:27] Speaker 3: of the top eight.
[22:29] Speaker 5: It goes to Oklahoma City, like Sam Presty would get
[22:32] Speaker 5: Sam Presty could get the ninth pick in this draft,
[22:35] Speaker 5: like so like like Utah us like we need the pick,
[22:38] Speaker 5: but also like the good of the league, we can't give.
[22:40] Speaker 3: Sam Presty another top ten that you know, so like
[22:43] Speaker 3: so like I just I just think that those types
[22:46] Speaker 3: of things, Uh, the league needs to do. They they
[22:50] Speaker 3: they they need to do it, And I think I
[22:53] Speaker 3: think overall the product will improve. But again, to me,
[22:57] Speaker 3: the biggest one is still style of play and figuring
[23:01] Speaker 3: out like and and Katie hates when people talk about
[23:04] Speaker 3: this because he thinks that people are doing it from
[23:06] Speaker 3: a place of just looking for something to bitch about.
[23:10] Speaker 3: I honestly think that these guys have just gotten too good.
[23:13] Speaker 3: They're they're they're too good at hitting twenty three footers,
[23:16] Speaker 3: like the whole league can shoot thirty five percent, like
[23:20] Speaker 3: the whole league. Yeah, I like Kevin Durant shooting threes.
[23:24] Speaker 3: I don't like Ant shooting them, correct, I like Queen
[23:28] Speaker 3: shooting them. I don't like Ant shooting.
[23:30] Speaker 2: There are players who are catch and shoot guys. Clay
[23:33] Speaker 2: and kd are built for it. But when Russell Westbrook decides,
[23:36] Speaker 2: I need to take five. That's bad television. Correct, It's exactly.
[23:41] Speaker 3: And like again back in the day, and it's not
[23:43] Speaker 3: that it's not that you go. You put on a
[23:45] Speaker 3: game from the nineties when I'm a child, and I
[23:47] Speaker 3: got Michael Jordan's jersey on my wall, like it it is.
[23:50] Speaker 3: They're not running as hard, they are not as fast,
[23:52] Speaker 3: like it is not. But they had one guy who
[23:56] Speaker 3: would shoot threes. Steve curR, You're the three point shooter. John,
[24:00] Speaker 3: You're the three point shooter. Now everyone does it, and
[24:03] Speaker 3: so it's just the game is you gotta evolve. You
[24:06] Speaker 3: got to evolve with it with the caliber of your athletes.
[24:12] Speaker 2: Today's show brought to you by are presenting sponsor hard
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[25:41] Speaker 3: Well, I just finished it. I was so excited.
[25:44] Speaker 2: I just flew from Naples back to Chicago and I
[25:47] Speaker 2: read it. It's called The Bookie Inside the High Stakes
[25:51] Speaker 2: World of Sports Betting, a legendary bookmaker's tale of gangsters,
[25:56] Speaker 2: celebrities and the art of the game. All the proceeds
[26:00] Speaker 2: from the book here going to Art's two favorite charities,
[26:03] Speaker 2: World Wildlife Fund and Blood Cancer United. This is fun
[26:09] Speaker 2: for me because, as many of you know, if you've
[26:12] Speaker 2: listened to me for years, I've talked at great length
[26:15] Speaker 2: about my Las Vegas being my first job out of college. Well,
[26:19] Speaker 2: one of the people that was at the center of
[26:22] Speaker 2: it and around it, one of the most recognizable people
[26:25] Speaker 2: who was building his own career, was Art Man Terras,
[26:29] Speaker 2: who started at Caesar's, moved to the Hilton, where I
[26:34] Speaker 2: spent almost every Saturday and Sunday as a young sportscaster.
[26:40] Speaker 2: So let's start with that. There's so many things to
[26:43] Speaker 2: get to and I want to take this because a
[26:45] Speaker 2: lot of this stuff I want you to explain to
[26:47] Speaker 2: the audience. Some of this stuff. I knew I am
[26:50] Speaker 2: briefly in the book. And yes, I did introduce you
[26:53] Speaker 2: to your wife, Sue. Beautiful, elegant, smart, all the great things.
[26:57] Speaker 2: And I hope she's doing well.
[27:00] Speaker 4: I know she is.
[27:00] Speaker 2: He is beautiful, re guards, beautiful, beautiful kids, absolutely stunning
[27:05] Speaker 2: beautiful kids.
[27:06] Speaker 4: So thank you.
[27:07] Speaker 2: When you think of Caesar's Palace, I'm a guy from
[27:10] Speaker 2: a small town. You go to Vegas, you think Caesar's Palace.
[27:14] Speaker 2: You know, it's Harry Gluck, it's big money. It's like
[27:17] Speaker 2: just Steve Wynn is becoming this big architect in Vegas
[27:22] Speaker 2: and you Caesar says, Art, get in here and organize
[27:26] Speaker 2: our sports book.
[27:28] Speaker 3: And I'm reading your stories. It was a mess.
[27:33] Speaker 2: And it's amazing that this industry has grown so much.
[27:36] Speaker 2: Take the audience to when you went into Caesar's the
[27:39] Speaker 2: back room to organize their sports book and what you saw.
[27:43] Speaker 1: Well, you're you're right that that you know, in the
[27:47] Speaker 1: early days of the sportsbook industry that I joined in
[27:51] Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, it was far different from the industry today,
[27:54] Speaker 1: and there wasn't a whole lot of procedures and policies
[27:57] Speaker 1: in place, and and and some sportsbooks were pretty chaotic. Now,
[28:02] Speaker 1: in fairness to some of the other executive at Caesars,
[28:05] Speaker 1: they were hoping to do and wanting to do the
[28:07] Speaker 1: same things out that I did.
[28:09] Speaker 4: And certainly the finance and addit people were a big help.
[28:14] Speaker 1: And once they knew that they had somebody that wanted
[28:16] Speaker 1: to clean things up, wanted things to be run legitimately
[28:19] Speaker 1: and properly and within the gaming Gaming Control Board standards,
[28:23] Speaker 1: compliance standards.
[28:25] Speaker 4: Yeah, they were very very helpful also, But yes, it
[28:28] Speaker 4: was chaotic. In those days.
[28:30] Speaker 1: There was very few house rules, very few standards of
[28:37] Speaker 1: operational standards, and I think I was able to establish
[28:42] Speaker 1: a lot of those policies that are still in place
[28:45] Speaker 1: today in a lot of casinos.
[28:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, you and Chuck Esposito were the two guys I
[28:49] Speaker 2: always trusted. I always thought you guys had kind of
[28:53] Speaker 2: an everyman quality. And I don't think people understand this.
[28:57] Speaker 2: There were people that I knew, like lem Banker. I
[29:00] Speaker 2: didn't know Billy Walter's at the time, and Lamb could
[29:02] Speaker 2: be very manipulative, rest in peace and very much as showman.
[29:06] Speaker 2: And you know, lim wanted what Limb wanted. But when
[29:09] Speaker 2: you started in this business, you know, I'm very naive.
[29:13] Speaker 2: You know, I just figured, you know, the big guys
[29:15] Speaker 2: had phone accounts, but they weren't working the edges. It
[29:19] Speaker 2: was a big operation, but you had real run ins
[29:22] Speaker 2: with Billy Walter or a lem banker. And let's talk
[29:25] Speaker 2: about the most famous of the gamblers, Billy Walter. And
[29:29] Speaker 2: how art you listen? You were paid by the Hilton
[29:34] Speaker 2: or Caesars. This is a legitimate operation. Those guys didn't
[29:38] Speaker 2: want to play by your rules.
[29:40] Speaker 1: Well, you know, I respect the folks that you're mentioning. Yeah,
[29:45] Speaker 1: I certainly respect their abilities as handicappers. They were both
[29:50] Speaker 1: top notch and I respect that. But they were adversaries.
[29:54] Speaker 4: You know. They weren't friends and partners or colleagues.
[29:58] Speaker 1: They were adversaries and and certainly, uh that left a
[30:04] Speaker 1: real divide and and so no, I didn't get along
[30:08] Speaker 1: real well with with certain uh high end sophisticated players. Uh.
[30:13] Speaker 4: You know, they threatened my bottom line.
[30:15] Speaker 1: And you know, and I I said to to to
[30:17] Speaker 1: a few people in recent weeks that you know, you know,
[30:19] Speaker 1: you know, maintaining compliance, maintaining the gambling license of a
[30:24] Speaker 1: company I always viewed as my top priority. Second was
[30:28] Speaker 1: guest service for it for everyone, and and and third
[30:32] Speaker 1: was revenue. But but that never nevertheless, the bottom line
[30:36] Speaker 1: in all of that. Yeah, you know, guest service is great.
[30:38] Speaker 1: Uh uh. You know, having great television screens and and
[30:43] Speaker 1: and and audio systems and and and computer systems that
[30:46] Speaker 1: function properly, that's all an important part of the business.
[30:51] Speaker 1: But making money is still the bottom line. And and
[30:54] Speaker 1: it's still after all a said and done, it's still
[30:56] Speaker 1: about making money.
[30:57] Speaker 4: And and there.
[30:58] Speaker 1: Were certain people they wanted mine and I wanted theirs,
[31:01] Speaker 1: and that doesn't always lead to the most comfortable relationships.
[31:06] Speaker 2: So I didn't know what runners were until I met
[31:09] Speaker 2: people like you or Chuck Esposito, And you know, I'd
[31:12] Speaker 2: sit down and be asking a million questions because I
[31:14] Speaker 2: was curious about the industry and I always love betting football,
[31:18] Speaker 2: and you had to battle runners. A runner is somebody
[31:20] Speaker 2: who is making bets for a whale, making bets for
[31:23] Speaker 2: a billy, and you know, he just can't walk in.
[31:26] Speaker 2: He can get banned, or you're going to have limits
[31:29] Speaker 2: on him. And his way around that is I'm going
[31:30] Speaker 2: to have thirty guys spread them around the city. Could
[31:34] Speaker 2: you tell, Because you know, you had your guys, your
[31:37] Speaker 2: tellers could you tell that's a runner that's not. I mean,
[31:41] Speaker 2: how difficult was that for you? That game of cat
[31:43] Speaker 2: and mouse?
[31:44] Speaker 4: Well, it was difficult.
[31:45] Speaker 1: And in Nevada there are regulations prohibiting what's called messenger betters,
[31:50] Speaker 1: and that you know, slang term is runners, of course,
[31:53] Speaker 1: but they are the folks that are paid to wager
[31:57] Speaker 1: on behalf of others. And by the way, I just coincidentally,
[32:00] Speaker 1: in recent months, New Jersey has passed laws banning proxy
[32:05] Speaker 1: wagering as it called in there, as it's called in
[32:07] Speaker 1: their regulations, and that that prohibits people from using other
[32:11] Speaker 1: people's phone accounts. And that's very very similar in result
[32:17] Speaker 1: and answer to your question. Sometimes not always, but sometimes
[32:21] Speaker 1: you know, you know, I mean, if there would be
[32:23] Speaker 1: certain tip offs if you believed somebody was runner, and
[32:25] Speaker 1: and and certainly if you with today's technology, you could
[32:29] Speaker 1: see point spread movement around the industry.
[32:32] Speaker 4: And and and you know, my my long.
[32:36] Speaker 1: Standing statement to my staff was, well, either this guy
[32:39] Speaker 1: has ESP or or he's working with somebody else, because yeah,
[32:44] Speaker 1: if the line is changing across the industry simultaneously as
[32:47] Speaker 1: somebody's playing, that's a you know, pretty fair indication of
[32:51] Speaker 1: where the source of those funds might be coming from.
[32:54] Speaker 1: But there's no tried and true standard answer that that
[32:59] Speaker 1: gives me or any one else the ability to determine
[33:02] Speaker 1: that definitively. It's a pretty tough question to answer, but
[33:05] Speaker 1: there are indications, and.
[33:08] Speaker 4: I always tried.
[33:09] Speaker 1: I always tried to err on the side of caution
[33:11] Speaker 1: rather than the side of leniency.
[33:15] Speaker 2: You know, there's a story when I was a kid
[33:17] Speaker 2: growing up, the most well known NBA official was Earl Strom.
[33:20] Speaker 2: He was very boisterous. He was very very much theater
[33:24] Speaker 2: and charismatic. And there's a story in your book about
[33:28] Speaker 2: and this just goes to show you the lengths you
[33:30] Speaker 2: didn't have the Internet back then. I mean, it was
[33:33] Speaker 2: basically you tell a story about to get to figure
[33:37] Speaker 2: out because gamblers felt like, oh, he has a tendency
[33:44] Speaker 2: to blank as a ref or do this. It's not rigged,
[33:47] Speaker 2: it's not throwing a game. But referees are human. They
[33:50] Speaker 2: have tendencies. For years and years, there were certain officials
[33:53] Speaker 2: that just were willing to give the road team, maybe
[33:57] Speaker 2: Steve Javvy. For years I always was told that, hey,
[34:01] Speaker 2: he'll go into a harsh arena, he'll give the road
[34:03] Speaker 2: team the call he won't be intimidated like maybe young
[34:06] Speaker 2: refs or college refts. But tell the Earl Strong story
[34:09] Speaker 2: because I thought that was fascinating.
[34:12] Speaker 1: Well, there was a very sophisticated gambler who I was
[34:15] Speaker 1: friendly with, very friendly with.
[34:17] Speaker 4: I actually played softball together. He was a terrific slow
[34:21] Speaker 4: pitch softball pitcher.
[34:22] Speaker 1: And one of those old timers that really knew the
[34:24] Speaker 1: game and and and we were very friendly. I didn't
[34:28] Speaker 1: realize the extent of his sophistication as a sports better
[34:31] Speaker 1: because again he wasn't making most of his bets in person.
[34:35] Speaker 1: Others were, so I didn't put it put two and
[34:37] Speaker 1: two together for quite some time. But later he did
[34:42] Speaker 1: tell tell me the story of how he would track
[34:46] Speaker 1: earl Strom because he believed that he had strong tendencies
[34:50] Speaker 1: and he believed that his officiate and could could could
[34:53] Speaker 1: dramatically affect NBA totals, and he you know, his his
[34:57] Speaker 1: total bets were based in large part on where earl
[35:01] Speaker 1: Strom was going to be officiating.
[35:03] Speaker 4: And as you said, there was no internet back then,
[35:06] Speaker 4: so he literally.
[35:07] Speaker 2: He didn't know who was officiating the games.
[35:09] Speaker 1: Well, he had somebody following earl Strom to determine where
[35:12] Speaker 1: which city he was flying to.
[35:15] Speaker 3: That just cracks me up.
[35:17] Speaker 2: Basically, earl Strom had spies. Chase Oh, Earl's in Detroit
[35:20] Speaker 2: tonight bet the over yess? That's right, that's right. So
[35:25] Speaker 2: what happens in your career? I fell in love with
[35:29] Speaker 2: boxing when I moved to Vegas. And there are times
[35:33] Speaker 2: it could be a pachiaw. Mayweather fight or a Buster
[35:36] Speaker 2: Douglas Tyson fight where by proxy you have information that
[35:42] Speaker 2: is kind of viewed as inside information. What do you
[35:45] Speaker 2: do when you know something maybe you shouldn't know, You
[35:50] Speaker 2: stumble on it, or you're so connected art you just
[35:53] Speaker 2: find things out right in those instances, if you could
[35:57] Speaker 2: take the audience through one or two of those where
[36:00] Speaker 2: that's is that a dilemma for you?
[36:02] Speaker 4: It absolutely is a dilemma.
[36:04] Speaker 1: And you know, for many years, particularly after you left
[36:07] Speaker 1: you left Las Vegas, I got real involved in boxing.
[36:10] Speaker 1: I was very involved in signing big fights and operating
[36:15] Speaker 1: the fights and being part of the publicity tours for
[36:18] Speaker 1: for various big fights. And I never saw, I never
[36:21] Speaker 1: thought anything about it. It was just part of my
[36:24] Speaker 1: job and I and I love doing I love being
[36:26] Speaker 1: around boxing, I love running sports books and and so so.
[36:32] Speaker 4: You know, it didn't It didn't bother me.
[36:34] Speaker 1: I didn't feel any any any great conflict uh until
[36:37] Speaker 1: the until the Mayweather Pack Yell fight. And in that fight,
[36:40] Speaker 1: I did uh find out some very very important insight
[36:44] Speaker 1: information and and and it left me in.
[36:47] Speaker 4: A real dilemma. Uh.
[36:49] Speaker 1: Before the fight, I was told straight up that Paqyelle
[36:52] Speaker 1: was hurt and could not win the fight, and and
[36:55] Speaker 1: and and and when you watch the fight, that's exactly
[36:57] Speaker 1: what happened.
[36:59] Speaker 4: That he was one armed fighter that night.
[37:02] Speaker 2: Uh.
[37:02] Speaker 4: He immediately had shoulder surgery shortly after the fight.
[37:06] Speaker 1: And and and and and and it became crystal clear
[37:09] Speaker 1: to me that there must be a very clear separation
[37:12] Speaker 1: between participation in sports, including on the promotional end, and
[37:17] Speaker 1: and and gambling on sports and and and I've preached
[37:20] Speaker 1: that message ever since. And and I did work for
[37:24] Speaker 1: the NBA as a consultant for many years, and of
[37:26] Speaker 1: course they loved that message, uh, as did other as
[37:29] Speaker 1: did the other leagues, you know, because I would be
[37:31] Speaker 1: at various conferences and speaking engagements and and and and
[37:36] Speaker 1: you know I felt very u a great deal of
[37:38] Speaker 1: comaraderie camaraderie with the leagues on on that issue. That
[37:44] Speaker 1: that's why calling the the the the embracing of gambling
[37:49] Speaker 1: now by the leagues that have been surprising to me,
[37:51] Speaker 1: you know.
[37:52] Speaker 4: I mean I knew that there was going to be
[37:53] Speaker 4: some cooperation.
[37:55] Speaker 1: Data sharing, for example with for in play wagering uh
[37:59] Speaker 1: videos those into casinos and sports books of course is
[38:02] Speaker 1: another form of cooperation, and I.
[38:05] Speaker 4: That I certainly expected.
[38:07] Speaker 6: But the but the the the amount of official sponsorships
[38:13] Speaker 6: and official partnerships with the gambling companies that that has
[38:16] Speaker 6: that has.
[38:17] Speaker 4: Really uh surprised me.
[38:20] Speaker 1: And and and and I think that that message can't stand.
[38:24] Speaker 1: It's not going to stay there forever because there's going
[38:26] Speaker 1: to be pushed back inevitably. And you know, and I
[38:29] Speaker 1: look around the world the world of sports gambling. You know,
[38:32] Speaker 1: you look to Europe, where sports gambling has been legal
[38:36] Speaker 1: now for something like twenty five years or thirty years,
[38:39] Speaker 1: and sportsbook advertising is not lead and there's great pushback
[38:45] Speaker 1: now in the UK and Ireland and the Netherlands, in
[38:48] Speaker 1: Germany and elsewhere around the world. The US, of course
[38:52] Speaker 1: is still going one hundred miles an hour the opposite direction,
[38:56] Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I think that's a terribly mismat
[39:00] Speaker 1: mixed message that the leagues are trying to sen right now.
[39:03] Speaker 1: You know, they tell their players and their staffs, the
[39:08] Speaker 1: coaches and even office personnel, how they must stay away
[39:12] Speaker 1: from gambling, how evil gambling is, and yet they're signing
[39:16] Speaker 1: these partnership agreements and in some cases even wearing gambling
[39:22] Speaker 1: company logos on the shirts on their shirts.
[39:24] Speaker 4: So I think it's confusing to.
[39:26] Speaker 1: A lot of young athletes, and it's going to continue
[39:31] Speaker 1: to cause problems until there is a day of reckoning.
[39:33] Speaker 4: And I well, there's yeah.
[39:35] Speaker 1: I hope that the leagues address this issue themselves rather
[39:39] Speaker 1: than have it imposed upon them.
[39:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, And let's you know, prop bets are something I
[39:45] Speaker 2: think that worry people. I've said before, I worry about
[39:50] Speaker 2: not betting the spread as much because games are monitored.
[39:55] Speaker 2: You always knew and you predicted this, and you told
[39:57] Speaker 2: the NBA when you sat down with David watched the officials.
[40:01] Speaker 2: It's not going to be about the players. It's going
[40:03] Speaker 2: to be college kids because they don't have any money,
[40:06] Speaker 2: and it's going to be officials. And so what's interesting
[40:09] Speaker 2: is that Tim donaghee situation happened, and it was I
[40:13] Speaker 2: will say this and I've talked to Tim donaghy. It
[40:16] Speaker 2: was let let's let's take it back, because I for
[40:20] Speaker 2: years argued Vegas is the ally of the pro leagues.
[40:24] Speaker 3: They don't want it.
[40:25] Speaker 2: Listen, the margins are thin on this stuff.
[40:27] Speaker 4: That's right.
[40:28] Speaker 2: The last thing they want is for there to be
[40:31] Speaker 2: illegal gambling. They'll tell the leagues, we're getting burned on
[40:35] Speaker 2: this game, or we're getting burned by this official. So
[40:38] Speaker 2: let's go back to the Tim Donegie situation where he
[40:41] Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily changing outcomes, he was changing overs and unders,
[40:46] Speaker 2: and take the audience back, because I want to get
[40:49] Speaker 2: them into your book that were you shocked by Doneghie.
[40:53] Speaker 4: I was caught off guard.
[40:55] Speaker 1: I did not see that it was happening, and I
[40:57] Speaker 1: have great regret about that, and they talk about that
[41:00] Speaker 1: in the book. I wish I had caught it. And
[41:04] Speaker 1: it would have been very difficult to see though, because
[41:06] Speaker 1: we did not get bet on those games or those totals.
[41:10] Speaker 4: Uh. So there was no.
[41:11] Speaker 1: Unusual money uh flooding into the into the Las Vegas
[41:16] Speaker 1: casinos like there was, for example, in the Arizona State
[41:19] Speaker 1: point shaving scandal of the mid nine right, which was
[41:22] Speaker 1: easy to see, and and and I was so proud
[41:25] Speaker 1: of the industry for seeing it doing the right thing,
[41:28] Speaker 1: notifying the leagues, notifying uh uh in that case, the NCAA,
[41:34] Speaker 1: and and of course the Nevada Gaming Control Board having
[41:37] Speaker 1: everything documented, a videotaped, et cetera. We do handle the
[41:41] Speaker 1: situation perfect perfectly. So I took great pride in that,
[41:44] Speaker 1: and I took that part of my job seriously monitoring
[41:47] Speaker 1: for those types of improprieties. The Donaghy scandal, though, did
[41:53] Speaker 1: was very upsetting to me, you know, and seeing David
[41:56] Speaker 1: Stern before the media, uh when that it was first reported,
[42:01] Speaker 1: was heartbreaking. He was, you know, he was genuinely crushed,
[42:05] Speaker 1: hurt by what had happened. It was playing to see.
[42:07] Speaker 1: You could see the pain on his face, and that's
[42:09] Speaker 1: all I felt too. But today it's far different. And
[42:16] Speaker 1: you know, mentioning the prop bets I was I've never
[42:20] Speaker 1: been an advocate of prop bets on college athletes. I
[42:24] Speaker 1: did wind up doing it the last several years that
[42:28] Speaker 1: I was in the business, but I had to to
[42:30] Speaker 1: keep up with the Joneses by that time.
[42:32] Speaker 4: By that time, you know.
[42:34] Speaker 1: In the late twenty eighteen nineteen in early twenties, you
[42:41] Speaker 1: could not have prop bets up on the college football
[42:44] Speaker 1: championship game or the final four. You know, it was
[42:48] Speaker 1: expected by that time by your consumers, and you had
[42:51] Speaker 1: to accommodate your consumers. So I did do it, but
[42:54] Speaker 1: I never liked it. But what's happened now in the
[42:57] Speaker 1: last couple of years with you know, in pro baseball
[43:01] Speaker 1: and pro basketball, has been very surprising and devastating to me.
[43:07] Speaker 1: And that is going to be very tough to control.
[43:10] Speaker 1: Prop betting and in play wagering has become a very fun,
[43:16] Speaker 1: enjoyable pastime for thousands and thousands of consumers, So it's
[43:20] Speaker 1: going to be hard to roll that back. But on
[43:23] Speaker 1: college sports it should be rolled back, and I am
[43:26] Speaker 1: a strong, strong advocate of the industry doing away with
[43:30] Speaker 1: wagering on college sports. On individual athlete athletic performance.
[43:35] Speaker 2: I want to go back to the Tyson buster Douglas fight,
[43:38] Speaker 2: where Mike Tyson I think was a forty two to
[43:40] Speaker 2: one favorite. I can remember going on the air and
[43:43] Speaker 2: saying it's the safest bet.
[43:45] Speaker 3: Of all time.
[43:46] Speaker 2: In fact, a friend of mine, a friend of mine
[43:49] Speaker 2: was at the California Pizza Kitchen at the then time
[43:53] Speaker 2: New Mirage, and we were at California Pizza and the
[43:57] Speaker 2: fight was that night, and he goes, hey, i' a
[43:59] Speaker 2: bet ten dollars on Buster Douglas. I said, just buy
[44:03] Speaker 2: a chicken California pizza, chicken barbecue chicken pizza. That is
[44:07] Speaker 2: a way better bet than Buster Douglas, some guy from Ohio.
[44:12] Speaker 2: Of course, I was, you know, exceptionally wrong. Go back
[44:16] Speaker 2: to that fight. What happens in your space when it
[44:22] Speaker 2: is the upset of a decade in any sport. Is
[44:26] Speaker 2: that a miserable experience for you?
[44:28] Speaker 4: Well, I didn't even book that fight. I didn't take wages.
[44:32] Speaker 1: I thought I considered it an outprice, meaning it was ridiculous.
[44:37] Speaker 4: It wasn't a competitive event.
[44:39] Speaker 1: Buster Douglas had fought at the Hilton about a year
[44:42] Speaker 1: earlier and lost to Tony Tucker and did not impress
[44:48] Speaker 1: me at all. You know, it was lethargic and you know,
[44:51] Speaker 1: just uninspired performance completely and didn't didn't look good at all.
[44:55] Speaker 1: And I'd seen him in some other fights too on
[44:57] Speaker 1: his way up the ladder. Not very impressive to me. Tyson,
[45:02] Speaker 1: of course, was annihilating everybody at that time. But in retrospect,
[45:07] Speaker 1: Buster Douglas had lost his mother shortly before the fight,
[45:11] Speaker 1: and he dedicated his next fight to the memory of
[45:14] Speaker 1: his mom. Fought the fight of his life. He really
[45:18] Speaker 1: did fight a terrific fight that night. Tyson, on the
[45:22] Speaker 1: other hand, was an emotional wreck in his personal life.
[45:26] Speaker 1: And I came to learn later in this case, I
[45:28] Speaker 1: learned this inside information after the fact, not before the fact.
[45:33] Speaker 1: But I was told by a very good friend and
[45:35] Speaker 1: my personal physician who happened to be Mike's personal physician
[45:39] Speaker 1: also and also the chairman of the Nevada Athletic Commission,
[45:43] Speaker 1: that Mike had been suffering from an STD and was
[45:47] Speaker 1: under heavy medication.
[45:48] Speaker 4: At the time of the fight.
[45:49] Speaker 1: And it wasn't the first time that he fought under
[45:51] Speaker 1: those conditions. The first time in the Trevor Burberck fight,
[45:55] Speaker 1: it didn't. It didn't hurt his performance at all. Second
[45:58] Speaker 1: time it did.
[46:00] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[46:02] Speaker 1: By the way, By the way, calling that that forty
[46:04] Speaker 1: two to one that you're referencing, that that was Jimmy
[46:08] Speaker 1: Vicera at the Mirage book the fight, and he put
[46:11] Speaker 1: it up one to twenty seven, making Tyson a twenty
[46:14] Speaker 1: seven to one favorite over Douglas, and all the money
[46:17] Speaker 1: was on Tyson, Every ticket was on Tyson. He said,
[46:20] Speaker 1: somebody put up somebody put up a lot of money,
[46:23] Speaker 1: you know. And so he gratueated the odds all the
[46:28] Speaker 1: way up to forty two to one and that and uh,
[46:30] Speaker 1: and then got some great publicity about it afterwards, and
[46:34] Speaker 1: that still telling stories about it to this day.
[46:39] Speaker 2: The

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