# Dr. J Talks “Soul Power” Documentary, Drew Dalman Retires From Bears

An episode of [The Colin Cowherd Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1551365571), 4 Mar 2026, 57 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/arttrk.com/p/D5CA5/pscrb.fm/rss/p/prfx.byspotify.com/e/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/4013d28e-5f67-4885-bff1-ae3300346830/daa2d510-3b8d-4320-aa01-b4020181c083/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=e829cf60-fc06-4d61-8691-ae330034683e

Colin’s joined by NBA legend Julius Irving to discuss his new documentary Soul Power: The Legend of the American Basketball Association. Finally, Colin reacts to the shocking retirement from Chicago Bears Center Drew Dalman. How will this impact Caleb Williams and the Chicago Bears going forward? (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Volume See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The volume.
[0:03] Speaker 2: Today's show is brought to you by our presenting sponsor,
[0:06] Speaker 2: American Beverage. If you think about some of the most
[0:08] Speaker 2: iconic drinks in the country, the ones you grab a barbecue,
[0:12] Speaker 2: the ones you raised to celebrate your team, that have
[0:15] Speaker 2: been part of your story for decades, Coke, Doctor, Pepper, Pepsi,
[0:18] Speaker 2: there's something people don't always think about. The companies behind
[0:21] Speaker 2: those brands are still making their drinks right here in
[0:23] Speaker 2: the US. While there's a lot of talk about bringing
[0:25] Speaker 2: manufacturing back, America's beverage companies never left their American companies,
[0:29] Speaker 2: making American products with American workers in America's hometown. So
[0:32] Speaker 2: two hundred and seventy five thousand men and women across
[0:35] Speaker 2: all fifty states, real jobs, good paying jobs, the kind
[0:38] Speaker 2: of jobs you can raise a family on. So more
[0:39] Speaker 2: than one hundred years, those brands have been part of
[0:42] Speaker 2: everyday lives and they're still here, still investing, still operating
[0:45] Speaker 2: in communities around the country. So if you care about
[0:47] Speaker 2: strong old economies and companies that walk the walk, check
[0:50] Speaker 2: out the good work and what they're doing it. We
[0:52] Speaker 2: deliver for America dot Org. Well, like the rest of you,
[1:03] Speaker 2: I love a good sports documentary, and when I heard
[1:08] Speaker 2: there was a doc on Amazon Prime about the ABA,
[1:11] Speaker 2: for many reasons, I was fascinated. It's called soul Power,
[1:15] Speaker 2: the Legends of the ABA. So I've said many times
[1:19] Speaker 2: on my show The Herd ten times, fifteen times. The
[1:22] Speaker 2: first basketball player I fell in love with was Julius Irving.
[1:26] Speaker 2: But I was born in nineteen sixty four, as Julius
[1:30] Speaker 2: now joins us, and I didn't watch sports until nineteen
[1:34] Speaker 2: seventy two. I remember it clearly. On a black and
[1:36] Speaker 2: white TV, Julius, I watched the Miami Dolphins at the
[1:41] Speaker 2: time Washington Redskins Super Bowl. Dolphins won fourteen to seven.
[1:45] Speaker 2: It was about that time. You know, I'm six years old,
[1:49] Speaker 2: seven years old, I'm getting into sports. So my mom
[1:53] Speaker 2: bought me a subscription to Sports Illustrated so I could
[1:56] Speaker 2: watch baseball as the national pastime on TV. College football.
[2:00] Speaker 2: College basketball was big, But like anything else in life,
[2:04] Speaker 2: the one thing I couldn't get was the ABA. So
[2:10] Speaker 2: I had to rely on the Sporting News, which actually
[2:13] Speaker 2: did ABA guides, and Sports Illustrated twice put you on
[2:18] Speaker 2: the cover. I remember this. So I'm in my formative
[2:22] Speaker 2: years and I'm like, Who's doctor J. Nobody's called doctor J.
[2:29] Speaker 2: So because I didn't get you didn't have a TV contract,
[2:32] Speaker 2: because I didn't get ABA games. As a Seattle kid,
[2:36] Speaker 2: my parents bought me an ABA ball, So it's fascinating
[2:43] Speaker 2: to me. So let's go back. And I've always felt
[2:46] Speaker 2: that the NBA should include ABA numbers and stats. And
[2:52] Speaker 2: the reason I do is something I think you'll believe
[2:55] Speaker 2: in that I didn't know this about the ABA, Julius.
[2:59] Speaker 2: I knew about the Nuggets and the Spurs. I knew
[3:01] Speaker 2: about you, I knew about how many good players there were.
[3:05] Speaker 2: I did not know much about the exhibition games with
[3:10] Speaker 2: the NBA, in which the ABA teams clabbered them regularly.
[3:16] Speaker 2: So let so let's let's talk. Let's let's start with that.
[3:22] Speaker 2: The NBA in the seventies was considered a little white
[3:26] Speaker 2: and overcoached, and the ABA was more stylistic. It was
[3:31] Speaker 2: more fun, it was more fashionable, it was a little
[3:34] Speaker 2: rowdy when you matched up against those NBA teams. Was
[3:39] Speaker 2: there a chip on you on your league's shoulder, facing
[3:44] Speaker 2: like the adult the parent league that you knew in
[3:48] Speaker 2: many instances you were superior to.
[3:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, I played in two of those games.
[3:54] Speaker 3: And ABA versus NBA, and the excitement surrounding it was
[4:00] Speaker 3: unbelievable because it was just the exhibition season and you know,
[4:04] Speaker 3: we had training camp, play exhibition games, and then play
[4:07] Speaker 3: the regular season, so everyone always look forward to the
[4:10] Speaker 3: regular season in the playoffs, and that was the big
[4:13] Speaker 3: deal with these exhibition games against the NBA. You know,
[4:17] Speaker 3: became a big deal more so for the ABA than
[4:20] Speaker 3: the NBA because the ABA was the league that was
[4:23] Speaker 3: trying to establish itself, also trying to prove it itself
[4:27] Speaker 3: worthy and you know, wanted to have some bragging rights.
[4:31] Speaker 3: So you beat an NBA team, Uh, they're going to
[4:34] Speaker 3: make excuses. They're going to say, well, our guys aren't
[4:37] Speaker 3: in shape and it's only it's only a practice game
[4:41] Speaker 3: or whatever. But you know, the ABA guys who were
[4:43] Speaker 3: probably younger and more excitable, kind of like the young
[4:47] Speaker 3: NBA players are now, you know, looking forward to having
[4:51] Speaker 3: the chip on their shoulder and all of that good stuff.
[4:54] Speaker 3: So so so winning those games, especially if you're playing
[4:57] Speaker 3: on your on your home court, because the city that
[5:00] Speaker 3: you're in, you know, would always stick a chest out
[5:03] Speaker 3: a little bit and say, hey, yeah, you know, you know,
[5:05] Speaker 3: we knock those guys off, and you know, the league's
[5:07] Speaker 3: been around longer, and you know, those names are known.
[5:10] Speaker 3: People know Oscar Robinson's name, Clyde Frasier, Wilt Chamberlain, you
[5:15] Speaker 3: know west Unsel, They know those guys' names, and you
[5:19] Speaker 3: know we took them down. Those are the same guys.
[5:21] Speaker 3: You know what, guys, if they cut, they bleed just
[5:24] Speaker 3: like we do. Elbow they've been over, they act like
[5:28] Speaker 3: they're hurt, just like.
[5:29] Speaker 1: We do or whatever. So you know, we're all human beings.
[5:33] Speaker 3: And because you wear a title and you're you're you
[5:38] Speaker 3: wear a moniker or whatever, that's not gonna make you different.
[5:41] Speaker 1: That's gonna necessarily make you greater.
[5:44] Speaker 3: Uh So, so it was a good confidence boosted for us,
[5:48] Speaker 3: and you know a lot of people who went to
[5:50] Speaker 3: those games alive became believers. And also you know that
[5:56] Speaker 3: served to feed the cause. And the cause was you know,
[6:01] Speaker 3: we had seen the AFL and the NFL, you know,
[6:04] Speaker 3: Merchant some one league, so we had witnessed that, and
[6:08] Speaker 3: globally the same type of thing was happening. It was
[6:11] Speaker 3: happening in soccer, and it was happening in other sports
[6:15] Speaker 3: that have played universally, not necessarily in the United States.
[6:19] Speaker 3: So that became a mission for the ownership the players.
[6:26] Speaker 3: You know, my opinion was, I came out of school
[6:29] Speaker 3: after my junior year. I had played two varsity seasons
[6:36] Speaker 3: and our team had been invited to the n I
[6:38] Speaker 3: t Even though our record was good enough to be
[6:41] Speaker 3: invited to the NCAA tournament, we weren't.
[6:45] Speaker 1: And it felt like we were snubbed.
[6:48] Speaker 3: And after that, after my junior year, I got approached
[6:52] Speaker 3: by an agent, and the numbers that they started talking about,
[6:57] Speaker 3: you know, were comparable to the best player in the NBA,
[7:02] Speaker 3: and they said, this is going to go away.
[7:04] Speaker 1: I mean, if the lead folds, it's going to go away.
[7:07] Speaker 3: And if the NBA continues to you know, maybe put
[7:11] Speaker 3: you out of business or you know, maintains a superiority.
[7:15] Speaker 1: Complex, then those numbers are going to go away.
[7:19] Speaker 3: And you know, one hundred thousand is going to turn
[7:21] Speaker 3: into twenty five, thirty thousand or whatever.
[7:24] Speaker 1: So you know, I took the deal. I took the deal.
[7:29] Speaker 3: It cost me a lot because I was I had
[7:32] Speaker 3: to forego being an Olympian and I had played in
[7:37] Speaker 3: the Olympic Development program and you know, at my size
[7:42] Speaker 3: and with my game, I was the leading scorer and
[7:44] Speaker 3: rebounder in the Olympic Development program. We went over to Russia,
[7:49] Speaker 3: Poland and Finland and played and you know, I was
[7:53] Speaker 3: a shoe to make the team. But that that era
[7:57] Speaker 3: of the representing your country and playing for the United
[8:00] Speaker 3: States of America in nineteen seventy seventy one seventy two
[8:06] Speaker 3: was not the most popular thing to do.
[8:08] Speaker 1: It's not like we were just dying to do it.
[8:10] Speaker 1: So I chose. I chose the pro pro route.
[8:14] Speaker 3: And at that time, you know, this is twenty years
[8:16] Speaker 3: before pros were allowed to play in the Olympics, so
[8:18] Speaker 3: you had to be an amateur to play. And you know,
[8:23] Speaker 3: sorry about you know, getting off the subject, but I'm
[8:25] Speaker 3: just kind of this sale space is very very important
[8:30] Speaker 3: in terms of the ABA story, in the ABA Hockey series,
[8:34] Speaker 3: because there's so much to it beyond just basketball.
[8:39] Speaker 1: You know, there's the culture you know that we have.
[8:42] Speaker 3: There's the racial tension you know that was evident, and
[8:48] Speaker 3: and then there's you know, just the global situation where
[8:54] Speaker 3: you know, we're still learning things and there are a
[8:58] Speaker 3: lot of things that have gone on for hundreds of
[9:01] Speaker 3: years that haven't been fixed yet. So who's going to
[9:04] Speaker 3: fix this. Who's going to fix this? So basketball couldn't
[9:07] Speaker 3: be the most important thing for me in my life,
[9:11] Speaker 3: but it was.
[9:12] Speaker 1: It was. It was the path that I needed to take. Yeah.
[9:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, what's interesting because I grew up in the seventies.
[9:24] Speaker 2: You know, the NBA was not a rich league in
[9:27] Speaker 2: the seventies. In fact, I can remember the NBA Finals
[9:31] Speaker 2: being on tape delay after the eleven o'clock news and
[9:35] Speaker 2: young fans now that can watch every game every night,
[9:38] Speaker 2: So I remember NBA teams at that time. Julius traveled
[9:43] Speaker 2: on commercial first flight out of town, out of sea, traveled,
[9:47] Speaker 2: so what right, that's right? So what was travel like? Hotels?
[9:53] Speaker 2: Travel in the ABA, which was financially in a tougher
[9:58] Speaker 2: spot than even the NBA in the early seventh.
[10:00] Speaker 3: Yeah, so so you know, we didn't have the uh,
[10:04] Speaker 3: top notch hotels.
[10:06] Speaker 1: We had what was available to us. We had roommates.
[10:10] Speaker 3: You know, everybody had to pick a roommate, so those
[10:12] Speaker 3: single rooms. I didn't experience a single room until I
[10:16] Speaker 3: got in the NBA and I was in Philadelphia and
[10:19] Speaker 3: I didn't want a single room. Actually, Steve Mixed was
[10:22] Speaker 3: my roommate for five seasons and that was my boy,
[10:25] Speaker 3: and I learned a lot from him and he learned
[10:27] Speaker 3: a lot from me. So yeah, the accommodation piece, I
[10:35] Speaker 3: don't know, you know, if you if your college team,
[10:37] Speaker 3: you know, was in the Big ten or maybe you
[10:40] Speaker 3: know out there in the Pac twelve or whatever, you know,
[10:44] Speaker 3: maybe the travel was a little better, maybe the hotel
[10:46] Speaker 3: accommodations were a little better, you know. But you know,
[10:49] Speaker 3: I played in with the Minute Menu formally the UMass
[10:54] Speaker 3: red Men, and we were in the Yankee Conference, right,
[10:57] Speaker 3: So our travel, our travel with was a lot bout bus.
[11:00] Speaker 3: I mean we bussed over to Buffalo, and we bussed
[11:02] Speaker 3: down to Penn Pennsylvania to play Penn and then all
[11:06] Speaker 3: throughout New England we played Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, you know,
[11:10] Speaker 3: all of those schools.
[11:12] Speaker 1: And you were built for it, and we took buses.
[11:15] Speaker 3: So the move to the ABA was actually a step
[11:18] Speaker 3: up in terms of traveling and in terms of hotel accommodation.
[11:23] Speaker 2: So I'm from Seattle. So another player who was groundbreaking
[11:27] Speaker 2: was Spencer Haywood. So I yeah, so you know, I
[11:31] Speaker 2: grew up not only with the downtown Freddie Brown, DJ,
[11:34] Speaker 2: Gus Williams, Jack Sikmasonics. I grew up with Spencer Haywood,
[11:38] Speaker 2: John Brisker, the young teams. And I tell people this
[11:42] Speaker 2: because for young fans the ABA. This is why I
[11:45] Speaker 2: supported the live tour to the PGA. My takeaway is, folks,
[11:49] Speaker 2: watch what Lyft and Uber did the taxis you need
[11:53] Speaker 2: disruptors in society, and the ABA was really the one
[11:57] Speaker 2: of the first disruptors in sports in this country. And
[12:01] Speaker 2: when I mean, you were a nine time All Star,
[12:04] Speaker 2: five in the NBA. Four in the ABA, you were
[12:07] Speaker 2: a three time, you were a four.
[12:10] Speaker 1: Times, sixteen time All Star, so you were six.
[12:14] Speaker 3: I was an All Star every season, but in terms
[12:16] Speaker 3: of all pro that was that was five in the
[12:19] Speaker 3: NBA and four first team in Yeah, I already played
[12:26] Speaker 3: there five years, so I was second team the other year.
[12:29] Speaker 2: So in the history of American basketball, professional basketball, there's
[12:34] Speaker 2: a real argument that the most unrewarded overlooked player is you.
[12:40] Speaker 2: That you were. You spent probably forty percent of your
[12:44] Speaker 2: best days. You know, you're in your athletic prime in
[12:47] Speaker 2: the ABA. Have you ever thought about I mean, do
[12:50] Speaker 2: you regret that decision? Have you ever thought? Man? Because
[12:54] Speaker 2: the Olympics back in seventy two wasn't what they are now.
[12:57] Speaker 2: We watched for gymnastics, we watched for a lot of things.
[13:01] Speaker 2: The Dream Team kind of made the Olympic basketball. It's
[13:05] Speaker 2: a showcase. But when I look at you, I think
[13:08] Speaker 2: of all the great players, you probably have been overlooked
[13:16] Speaker 2: more than any great player, because I remember in the
[13:19] Speaker 2: seventies turning on the TV I grew up the Pacific
[13:21] Speaker 2: Northwest and watching you against the Blazers and thinking what
[13:24] Speaker 2: am I watching? Have you ever thought about that? Have
[13:27] Speaker 2: you ever had regrets about your journey?
[13:33] Speaker 3: It's an excellent question, and I can'd of stand on
[13:38] Speaker 3: the ground that the journey that I took, the path
[13:42] Speaker 3: that I took, made who I am today. You know,
[13:47] Speaker 3: never wan to ego trip and feel like I deserve
[13:53] Speaker 3: more than I've received. I'm more sensitive to the guys
[13:58] Speaker 3: who didn't know recognition. I at least get some recognition.
[14:03] Speaker 3: I was on eight covers of Sports Illustrated and multiple
[14:07] Speaker 3: colors of Sports Magazine, and uh, you know, participated in
[14:13] Speaker 3: a lot of charitable endeavors which led to endorsements.
[14:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, shooting Converse.
[14:18] Speaker 3: Yeah my shoe deal with Converse, and it's balding and
[14:23] Speaker 3: you know, my invitation to become a Coca Cola butler
[14:27] Speaker 3: with Bruce Llewellen, and so so there were things that happened.
[14:32] Speaker 3: I've had a good life. I've had had a very
[14:35] Speaker 3: very good life. And could it be better.
[14:38] Speaker 1: I don't know. It could be different, It could be different.
[14:42] Speaker 3: But my my my empathy goes, you know, to the
[14:47] Speaker 3: guys who were passed on, don't have the recognition their families,
[14:51] Speaker 3: they don't have the financial support, you know of pensions
[14:54] Speaker 3: and and gifting and uh so that the sort of
[14:59] Speaker 3: things that are more important than my ego. And I
[15:06] Speaker 3: think that my statistics can be matched with anybody's. I mean,
[15:10] Speaker 3: you know, the guys who came after me and played
[15:14] Speaker 3: better in the NBA than they played in the ABA,
[15:17] Speaker 3: And my stats in the ABA were probably a little
[15:20] Speaker 3: better than the NBA. But I was playing with a
[15:22] Speaker 3: different team. I came my whole career with the Philadelphia
[15:25] Speaker 3: seventy six ers. The first day I got there, the
[15:29] Speaker 3: general manager came in and said, look, we got George
[15:31] Speaker 3: McGinnis here, we got Doug Collins or whatever, so we
[15:35] Speaker 3: don't need you to score thirty points a game. And
[15:37] Speaker 3: I've never experienced that where I've gone, and the coaches
[15:42] Speaker 3: told me to tone it down, or general manager I
[15:46] Speaker 3: said tone it down. And so they were bursts in which,
[15:52] Speaker 3: you know, the doctor j of the ABA came out.
[15:55] Speaker 3: But most of the time it was as you said
[15:59] Speaker 3: about the NBA, you know, slow down, structure, structure, playing,
[16:04] Speaker 3: playing a certain type of game. So I was encouraged
[16:09] Speaker 3: to play that type of game, although inside of me,
[16:13] Speaker 3: you know, there was always that ability to do more.
[16:17] Speaker 3: And who who asked an athlete to do less?
[16:20] Speaker 1: Nobody? It's kind of crazy.
[16:24] Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because there's so much Your journey is
[16:28] Speaker 2: fascinating and and uh, the aforementioned Philadelphia seventy six ers
[16:33] Speaker 2: is one of the first teams I loved. And they
[16:34] Speaker 2: had Steve mix a b A A B A, George
[16:38] Speaker 2: McGinnis a B A, Bobby Jones a B A. It
[16:41] Speaker 2: was an ABA All Star Jones, Calill Jones. So essentially
[16:47] Speaker 2: that seventy six ers team was an ABA team. Winning
[16:51] Speaker 2: the NBA Finals, was it not?
[16:54] Speaker 3: Absolutely going and losing to Portland and winning ultimately in
[16:59] Speaker 3: eighty three against the Lakers. We had met much ABA
[17:04] Speaker 3: representation there, and plus you know, the guys who didn't
[17:08] Speaker 3: get the ABA experience. I always, you know, taught them
[17:11] Speaker 3: things that I brought over from the ABA, you know,
[17:15] Speaker 3: And I used to tell Andrew Tony. I'd say, you know,
[17:19] Speaker 3: George Gervin came in my second year in Virginia and
[17:26] Speaker 3: the practice was over and he wanted to go home,
[17:29] Speaker 3: and I was like, gee, we got work to do.
[17:34] Speaker 1: You're over here over time.
[17:36] Speaker 3: So we would stay in the gym and it was
[17:38] Speaker 3: at this Jewish community center. We would stay in the
[17:40] Speaker 3: gym and we played one on one and uh, you know,
[17:43] Speaker 3: maybe put in the extra hour, extra hour and a
[17:45] Speaker 3: half and go home exhausted. And when Andrew Toni came in,
[17:50] Speaker 3: it was the same thing with him. I said, look,
[17:52] Speaker 3: you know you're gonna be my new iceman, Gervon, because
[17:55] Speaker 3: because you're really good, and I could use the work myself,
[18:00] Speaker 3: so you know, I would keep him afterwards. And that
[18:03] Speaker 3: was something that Ray Scott showed me in the ABA about,
[18:07] Speaker 3: you know, stand after putting in the extra time and
[18:10] Speaker 3: you know, really the other things about taking care of
[18:13] Speaker 3: yourself and then the other things about just some fundamental
[18:16] Speaker 3: things that you need to do during the course of
[18:18] Speaker 3: the game. You don't have to always jump as high
[18:21] Speaker 3: as you possibly can. And you see it in today's
[18:24] Speaker 3: game where guys they step back and shoot set shots.
[18:28] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[18:29] Speaker 3: Whatever, So the jump shot, you know, is a little
[18:33] Speaker 3: bit overstated because you know, the true jump shot where
[18:36] Speaker 3: you go to your pinnacle and your peak and then
[18:40] Speaker 3: you let it go, you don't have to do it,
[18:43] Speaker 3: actually takes more energy and it's actually a risk reward
[18:48] Speaker 3: shot because you probably, if you probably would shoot less
[18:53] Speaker 3: of a percentage from shooting that way as opposed to
[18:57] Speaker 3: stepping back and shooting set shot.
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[20:36] Speaker 2: I mean, I could certainly make the argument that you
[20:39] Speaker 2: came into the NBA at the perfect time that they
[20:42] Speaker 2: needed a face. It was not a three ball league
[20:46] Speaker 2: you were. There was no dominant team, so the league
[20:50] Speaker 2: was wide open for Julius Irving. And you know this,
[20:55] Speaker 2: it's the duality of life. You could look at it
[20:57] Speaker 2: and go, man, I wish I was in the NBA.
[20:59] Speaker 2: But the true is it was overcoached, it didn't have
[21:02] Speaker 2: a great TV contract, and there was so much mystery
[21:05] Speaker 2: around you. By the time you entered the NBA. You
[21:08] Speaker 2: were a star of the first day in the NBA.
[21:10] Speaker 2: I remember it. I mean I remember the news stories
[21:13] Speaker 2: about the merger. Did you know the merger was coming
[21:16] Speaker 2: or did you get a phone call?
[21:19] Speaker 3: Well, when I was negotiating my contract three years earlier,
[21:26] Speaker 3: two years earlier, the agent kept saying that, you know,
[21:31] Speaker 3: there would be a merger between the two leagues. So
[21:36] Speaker 3: that was that was in nineteen seventy one when I
[21:39] Speaker 3: signed with the Potatus question, it was five years before
[21:41] Speaker 3: the mergered. They said in two or three years it
[21:44] Speaker 3: would happen. To two years came, three years came, and
[21:47] Speaker 3: it didn't happen. Right, it didn't happen. It happened in
[21:50] Speaker 3: year five. And I was a part of the conversation,
[21:54] Speaker 3: you know, the players Association.
[21:57] Speaker 1: I was involved.
[21:58] Speaker 3: And then we had an only owners group and those
[22:02] Speaker 3: conversations went back and forth and they were very intense,
[22:05] Speaker 3: and it didn't look like there was going to be
[22:07] Speaker 3: a merger. And then the ownership of the Nets, which
[22:11] Speaker 3: was Ron Bow, and the ownership of the Denver Nuggets,
[22:15] Speaker 3: which was called Sheer Believe, they applied for membership into
[22:20] Speaker 3: the NBA. So this comes out in our document series,
[22:23] Speaker 3: comes out in the story, and they were just like,
[22:27] Speaker 3: screw everybody else, We're gonna get our franchises then, because
[22:32] Speaker 3: the NBA is into expansion and they're much better at
[22:37] Speaker 3: expanding one or two teams in a year rather than
[22:41] Speaker 3: the whole kitten kboodle and all health brocluse because we said, well,
[22:47] Speaker 3: what about the other teams and what about the jobs,
[22:51] Speaker 3: and what about the pensions and so on of s
[22:54] Speaker 3: what what's going to happen?
[22:55] Speaker 1: I mean, it was it was really a scary time.
[22:58] Speaker 3: And uh when back to the drawing board, and as
[23:02] Speaker 3: it turned out, h two teams did not make it.
[23:05] Speaker 3: The five teams did.
[23:07] Speaker 2: Yep, and so the other way around, and and the
[23:10] Speaker 2: teams that made it, Denver, San Antonio were very good, immedia.
[23:15] Speaker 2: Denver won their division.
[23:16] Speaker 1: If I recalled yea, they did, Yeah, they did, they did,
[23:20] Speaker 1: Nets were good.
[23:22] Speaker 4: Denver was good. San Antonio, yeah was good. And Indiana, Yes,
[23:31] Speaker 4: Indiana was George McGinnis.
[23:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, he had gone to Denver by then because
[23:37] Speaker 1: he was with the sixtions.
[23:38] Speaker 3: He started in Indiana and he was part of the
[23:41] Speaker 3: championship teams that they had in Indiana and the ABA,
[23:45] Speaker 3: and he he came to the sixth year before me.
[23:48] Speaker 3: And then two years after he got to Philadelphia, he
[23:53] Speaker 3: got traded to Denver for Bobby Jones. That's how I
[23:57] Speaker 3: became teammates with Bobby Jones. George, George went to Denver.
[24:02] Speaker 2: The the when you got to the NBA and Portland
[24:09] Speaker 2: was good. You were good. The Warriors were good. The Sonics,
[24:12] Speaker 2: the Sonics with you know, they were very good. The
[24:16] Speaker 2: Washington Bullets at the time were very good teams. And
[24:20] Speaker 2: Lake was always good, right, Lakers role is good?
[24:23] Speaker 1: Was there.
[24:26] Speaker 2: Yeap who was the first NBA player when you merged
[24:31] Speaker 2: that you had not played against and you immediately thought, okay,
[24:36] Speaker 2: because you you were the best ABA player. There was
[24:39] Speaker 2: a couple of exhibitions, but you watch on TV or
[24:42] Speaker 2: you read about who was the first NBA guy you
[24:44] Speaker 2: played against, and went, I.
[24:49] Speaker 3: Think with the Knicks since I was a New Yorker
[24:52] Speaker 3: and they had Willis Reed and Clyde Frazier and you know,
[24:56] Speaker 3: I mean those two would have been Clyde and I
[24:58] Speaker 3: had the same agent. You know, my agency was Walt Frager.
[25:03] Speaker 3: Sports Enterprise is.
[25:04] Speaker 1: Run by Irwin Wingdam.
[25:06] Speaker 3: So I had seen Clyde off the court that I'd
[25:09] Speaker 3: been in his rolls Royce and we had gone shopping together.
[25:12] Speaker 1: But we had not played on the court against and
[25:17] Speaker 1: you know, so he was he was one of the guys.
[25:19] Speaker 1: He was.
[25:20] Speaker 2: He played real defense.
[25:22] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the ultimate, the Ultimate and the next you know,
[25:26] Speaker 3: they also had David Busher and we played them in
[25:29] Speaker 3: exhibition games and the expression games were all are very good.
[25:33] Speaker 3: I think we beat them, but you know they always
[25:35] Speaker 3: had the excuse, our guys aren't in shape yet, because
[25:38] Speaker 3: you know, we really take the off season, off training camps,
[25:44] Speaker 3: when we get in shape and get ready for the season,
[25:47] Speaker 3: and that's when you see us our best. And I'm like,
[25:50] Speaker 3: every time you step on the court, I'm supposed to
[25:52] Speaker 3: see you at your best.
[25:53] Speaker 1: You know, don't make don't make excuses?
[25:55] Speaker 2: Man, how much of your artistry was practiced and how
[26:02] Speaker 2: much was instinctive? The dunks, the swooping. I mean, you
[26:06] Speaker 2: know a lot of times you can go to Rutger Park,
[26:08] Speaker 2: or you can go to the park, but some of
[26:10] Speaker 2: the stuff I watch feels like it was I mean,
[26:15] Speaker 2: the dunkover Cooper, I'm sure you'd practiced it, but that
[26:19] Speaker 2: the ball was loose on the left side, right outside
[26:22] Speaker 2: of the coaching box. How much of your game was
[26:25] Speaker 2: instinctive and how much was practiced?
[26:27] Speaker 1: The My answer to that.
[26:32] Speaker 3: Is the greatest compliment that I've ever received. We're from
[26:39] Speaker 3: teammates Alice and Henry Bibby, Steve Makes and they took
[26:49] Speaker 3: the time to say, Doug, I got to tell you something,
[26:54] Speaker 3: And I said, what's that? It says you just play
[27:01] Speaker 3: differently from everybody else. And I'm like, what do you mean?
[27:06] Speaker 1: Dribble?
[27:06] Speaker 3: The dribble left hand, right hand, but the fundamentals are
[27:09] Speaker 3: the fundamentals. You know, you you pass, you rebound, you score,
[27:14] Speaker 3: you defend. The fundamentals are fundamental.
[27:17] Speaker 1: And they said, no, not the way you do it.
[27:21] Speaker 3: These are my teammates. Yeah, these are my teammates. So
[27:24] Speaker 3: I tried to get a big head out of it,
[27:27] Speaker 3: but I had no way to prove it. You know,
[27:32] Speaker 3: we could look at film and we couldn't look at
[27:36] Speaker 3: the you know, you have you have you have these
[27:39] Speaker 3: guys now who are the analysts analytical right people? And
[27:44] Speaker 3: you know each franchise has ten to fifteen of these guys,
[27:49] Speaker 3: right who go through that and then they give reports
[27:53] Speaker 3: and they could see things that a player couldn't see
[27:57] Speaker 3: and they and obviously that's why they have job that
[28:00] Speaker 3: they have.
[28:01] Speaker 1: But my job was to like Iceman always said, my
[28:06] Speaker 1: job was to perform. I like to put on a show,
[28:10] Speaker 1: you know. So when I get out there on the courting,
[28:12] Speaker 1: and I want to put on the show.
[28:14] Speaker 3: And when I did something special, I did to run
[28:18] Speaker 3: down the court and get ready to play defense, you know,
[28:20] Speaker 3: not celebrating and banging and chests and jumping on the
[28:24] Speaker 3: from the stands or you know, falling into the fans
[28:28] Speaker 3: and so when I watched the game. Now, I'm not
[28:31] Speaker 3: all that enthralled with the celebratory part, right, And I
[28:36] Speaker 3: was with I'm in Vegas now, I was with George
[28:39] Speaker 3: yesterday and I said, you know how many times you
[28:43] Speaker 3: could have looked at one of your opponents after you
[28:46] Speaker 3: scored on him and put your hand down like he
[28:51] Speaker 3: was just too small to guard you.
[28:53] Speaker 1: You know how many times you would have done that? Bro?
[28:57] Speaker 3: He said, He said a million million times. But that
[29:01] Speaker 3: wasn't my style. That wasn't al style. You know. Our
[29:04] Speaker 3: style was not to degrade people. I mean, we wanted
[29:07] Speaker 3: to win and we wanted to beat them. And at
[29:10] Speaker 3: the end of the day, I mean lots of times
[29:12] Speaker 3: in the ABA we went out to dinner with the
[29:14] Speaker 3: opponents and uh, you know, we spent time together and
[29:19] Speaker 3: we made friends. And because one thing about the ABA,
[29:23] Speaker 3: it was one for all and all of one's right.
[29:25] Speaker 3: So if anybody got any produce fighting up hill people, Yeah,
[29:29] Speaker 3: we're fighting up hill every day. And if people got publicity,
[29:33] Speaker 3: we would salute it. We wouldn't be haters. And uh,
[29:37] Speaker 3: and that was a good thing about that time in
[29:39] Speaker 3: my life. I mean that was between age twenty one
[29:41] Speaker 3: and twenty six and if I just could chop that
[29:45] Speaker 3: out and create a dash between that time, I would
[29:49] Speaker 3: have to say it's probably the most enjoyable part in
[29:52] Speaker 3: my basketball Wow.
[29:55] Speaker 2: Is there an ABA player one was certainly introduce use
[30:00] Speaker 2: to me uh in the documentary that I wasn't aware of.
[30:03] Speaker 2: But is there an ABA player that you wish would
[30:07] Speaker 2: have transitioned to the NBA and fans could have given
[30:11] Speaker 2: been given a glimpse of, like a player that didn't
[30:14] Speaker 2: do the transition that you look back and go.
[30:17] Speaker 3: So so, Jimmy Jones comes to mind, who played with
[30:22] Speaker 3: Dallas and uh lives here in Vegas.
[30:27] Speaker 1: Uh, Jimmy Jones was a great player.
[30:29] Speaker 3: I mean I never hear anybody talk about him, and
[30:32] Speaker 3: I speak to him, you know, once every other month
[30:35] Speaker 3: or what have you.
[30:36] Speaker 1: He's uh, you know, by being on the board of
[30:40] Speaker 1: governors at the Hall of Fame.
[30:42] Speaker 3: I tried to get him mentioned in the conversation about
[30:48] Speaker 3: former ABA players who were not recognized and Hall of
[30:51] Speaker 3: Fame worthy. Jimmy Jones, Willie Wise, Matt Calvin, you know
[30:58] Speaker 3: those three. Then there's another guard who played for Utah.
[31:05] Speaker 3: I can't think of his name right now, and I
[31:06] Speaker 3: apologize for that. But yeah, so this this guy, I mean,
[31:11] Speaker 3: he's probably a dozen if we go through the rosters,
[31:17] Speaker 3: who I could pick out who, you know, I just
[31:21] Speaker 3: have a certain feeling about because I know planned against him.
[31:25] Speaker 3: When I had my career high in against the San
[31:30] Speaker 3: Diego Conquistadors, they had a player on their team named
[31:35] Speaker 3: Warren Jebbali and his name when he came out of
[31:39] Speaker 3: college was Warren Armstrong and he was kind of a
[31:43] Speaker 3: militant type guy changed his.
[31:45] Speaker 1: Name to Jabali and he's teaching in the documentary.
[31:49] Speaker 2: Yes, whatever, But.
[31:51] Speaker 3: I scored sixty three points. It was a four overtime game.
[31:55] Speaker 3: Ryan Taylor scored fifty. Yeah, but Jabali had like fifty
[31:59] Speaker 3: four and and.
[32:02] Speaker 2: He was a militant. He was militant. He is described,
[32:06] Speaker 2: I think accurately as kind of anti white.
[32:09] Speaker 3: Uh.
[32:09] Speaker 2: He had felt oppressed in his life, as many black
[32:14] Speaker 2: basketball players in the country watching the NBA, and he
[32:17] Speaker 2: just didn't he didn't hide it. For the record. In
[32:21] Speaker 2: the documentary, they don't spend a ton of time on him,
[32:23] Speaker 2: but his physique, he looks like an NFL defensive area.
[32:27] Speaker 3: He's six foot four, as strong as a bull and
[32:31] Speaker 3: and love to play inside. He loved to get into
[32:33] Speaker 3: paint and couldn't nobody do anything with him. He would
[32:38] Speaker 3: he would get into paint and and he would do
[32:40] Speaker 3: warn h. So so he was special and he was
[32:45] Speaker 3: he was a tough matchup. I got along with him.
[32:48] Speaker 3: I mean I kind of get along with everybody, so
[32:50] Speaker 3: I didn't I didn't have any real issues.
[32:53] Speaker 1: And you know, I had one fight and I got
[32:59] Speaker 1: hit by Maurice lu because well, he had a few
[33:01] Speaker 1: guys and we became we became friends after that.
[33:06] Speaker 2: Was an enforcer.
[33:07] Speaker 1: I'm like, I can get you on my sign because
[33:09] Speaker 1: Window Latin was gone.
[33:10] Speaker 3: But that's what happened with Wendell Latin and that's how
[33:13] Speaker 3: we got him because Kevin Lockry he always said, man,
[33:17] Speaker 3: this guy he was playing for Kentucky and he says.
[33:20] Speaker 1: He's so reckless he's gonna hurt Doc. And I can't
[33:25] Speaker 1: have that.
[33:26] Speaker 3: So we traded Mike Dale for window Lander and Mike
[33:30] Speaker 3: was a really good player. Uh, but then we had
[33:32] Speaker 3: Wendel and you know, we won. We won the championship
[33:35] Speaker 3: with Windland seventy four.
[33:37] Speaker 2: One of the things about the ABA that I didn't know,
[33:40] Speaker 2: and they had a lot of footage of it. Yeah,
[33:43] Speaker 2: because you guys were fighting for your basketball lives and
[33:46] Speaker 2: your economy. The fights in the ABA and the footage
[33:53] Speaker 2: in the documentary, I don't know where they got all
[33:55] Speaker 2: the footage, but there are fistfights and at one point
[33:58] Speaker 2: in the documentary they're like, it was a nightly occurrence
[34:02] Speaker 2: to fights. Yeah, that is Julius.
[34:06] Speaker 1: I didn't know.
[34:07] Speaker 2: I had no idea it was not.
[34:10] Speaker 3: I caught the second half of that because I wasn't
[34:12] Speaker 3: there in the first three years. And when I got there,
[34:16] Speaker 3: I just heard story after story and warning after warning,
[34:21] Speaker 3: don't mess with this guy, don't mess with this guy
[34:25] Speaker 3: or whatever.
[34:25] Speaker 1: And what do you mean?
[34:26] Speaker 3: You know I'm going I'm Duncan you know I'm free?
[34:30] Speaker 3: I couldn't dunk in college though. If he's under the basket,
[34:33] Speaker 3: he's gonna catch it and he might not like it.
[34:36] Speaker 3: But you know, you always got to have an enforcer.
[34:39] Speaker 3: And uh, you know, we had a guy who I
[34:42] Speaker 3: was with the nets. We had Rich Jones and Tim Bassett,
[34:47] Speaker 3: and those two guys they were my enforcements.
[34:50] Speaker 1: They would let anybody touch me, somebody.
[34:53] Speaker 2: Hit me the wrong like hockey.
[34:55] Speaker 3: One of those two if Rich didn't get him the
[34:58] Speaker 3: tim guy.
[34:59] Speaker 1: So so that was just the way up the world,
[35:02] Speaker 1: you know, and uh enforces.
[35:06] Speaker 3: They probably don't have as many enforcements out there now
[35:09] Speaker 3: because you know, nobody wants.
[35:10] Speaker 1: To get hurt.
[35:11] Speaker 2: That's right. Everybody's rich.
[35:14] Speaker 1: Everybody's rich. Rich guys don't want to get.
[35:16] Speaker 2: Hurt, you know, that's right. The face is the money maker.
[35:19] Speaker 3: Exactly when you're poor guy and you know you didn't
[35:22] Speaker 3: get an average money, didn't.
[35:25] Speaker 1: You know, you just swing for the fence.
[35:27] Speaker 2: But yeah, there there's you know, I grew up in
[35:31] Speaker 2: the West Coast. I when I went to New York,
[35:33] Speaker 2: I visited Rutger Park, which is a legendary place. So
[35:37] Speaker 2: I you know, it was one of those things where
[35:38] Speaker 2: I had an afternoon after doon my radio show. And
[35:42] Speaker 2: so would you say, well, you know there was a
[35:46] Speaker 2: people I didn't see some great game. It's it's a
[35:48] Speaker 2: regular like a Wednesday.
[35:50] Speaker 1: Thursday there on a Sunday in the summer.
[35:52] Speaker 2: No, no, no, but I want to go see it
[35:54] Speaker 2: for history sake. I want to go see it.
[35:57] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[35:57] Speaker 2: So for the uninitiated here, people in New York get it.
[36:02] Speaker 2: Old heads get it. But Rutger Park was a place
[36:05] Speaker 2: you made your name, like, so you there are playground
[36:09] Speaker 2: let Lloyd Daniels when I used to work in Vegas
[36:11] Speaker 2: and cover dark you know Lloyd Daniels. There was old
[36:15] Speaker 2: footage of him talk a little bit about Rutger Park
[36:19] Speaker 2: and your introduction to it and have him no cable
[36:24] Speaker 2: TV maybe a the truth is doc that you know,
[36:29] Speaker 2: people didn't know who you were. You go, you go,
[36:31] Speaker 2: and you're putting on a show there.
[36:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, well all right. So I grew up in Long Island. Yeah,
[36:38] Speaker 1: you know, Rock Park's Manhattan and it's Hotown. It's in Harlem.
[36:44] Speaker 1: So I've been to and through Halem many times. You know.
[36:48] Speaker 3: Actually had a had a job while I was in
[36:51] Speaker 3: college delivering books and that you live around Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx,
[36:58] Speaker 3: Queen's Long and uh, you know, I had a car
[37:03] Speaker 3: and have books in the back of the car.
[37:04] Speaker 1: We go to these people's houses and sometimes the blinds
[37:07] Speaker 1: would be open, and.
[37:08] Speaker 3: Then when they started knocking the door and they had
[37:11] Speaker 3: to pay for the book that they ordered, the blinds
[37:14] Speaker 3: would go down.
[37:15] Speaker 1: It's like nobody's home. So so collected was collected was
[37:20] Speaker 1: pretty tough. That was a tough job.
[37:24] Speaker 3: But I had never played in Rucker Park until I
[37:29] Speaker 3: signed a pro contract because it was a pro summer league.
[37:33] Speaker 3: So I signed a pro contract with the Virginia Squires
[37:36] Speaker 3: Charlie Scott Is to start a team. Yep, they called
[37:40] Speaker 3: him Charlie the Great Scott. And that's where I got
[37:43] Speaker 3: my nickname Julius Doctor j Irving because my friends they
[37:48] Speaker 3: would call me doc or they would just call me
[37:50] Speaker 3: the doctor. But doctor j was a better fit with
[37:54] Speaker 3: Charlie the Great Scott, Julius doctor j Irving. So the
[37:58] Speaker 3: Squire started marketing. So Charlie says, man, I gotta take
[38:02] Speaker 3: you to where I play in the summer. And I
[38:07] Speaker 3: was like, okay, so you know we're in Virginia. We
[38:10] Speaker 3: give him the car, we drive up.
[38:11] Speaker 1: To New York.
[38:14] Speaker 3: It takes me this playground. People are all over the place,
[38:18] Speaker 3: and it was it was very special. I mean, my
[38:22] Speaker 3: art started palpitating. I mean, I'm like, whoa.
[38:27] Speaker 1: This is? This is great?
[38:29] Speaker 3: And uh, Peter Vessie, do you know he was coaching
[38:34] Speaker 3: the team he's trying now. Team is called the West Siders.
[38:39] Speaker 3: And so we had some guys from Saint John's, Billy
[38:41] Speaker 3: Schaeffer and Billy Paul's and Georgie Brown's and.
[38:47] Speaker 1: Me and Charlie, Alie Taylor.
[38:50] Speaker 3: A few other guys who I can't think of all
[38:55] Speaker 3: their names at the time, but you know, I mean
[38:58] Speaker 3: they were good and some of them played Little ABA,
[39:00] Speaker 3: someone played the NBA, and some of them didn't play
[39:04] Speaker 3: at all.
[39:04] Speaker 1: They just for street ball players. Yeah, so.
[39:10] Speaker 3: So, so my first experience was to come there on
[39:13] Speaker 3: a Sunday with Charlie and I was just gonna follow
[39:18] Speaker 3: him whatever his routine was, That's what I was gonna do.
[39:21] Speaker 1: And I knew he was gonna shoot.
[39:23] Speaker 2: So so so that was part of the that was
[39:26] Speaker 2: Charlie Scott's game.
[39:27] Speaker 1: Put some shots, right.
[39:29] Speaker 3: So. Uh So, Charlie, at first he would park his
[39:33] Speaker 3: car and then he had tipped the young man who
[39:36] Speaker 3: was out there. He said, you watch my car. You
[39:40] Speaker 3: watch it.
[39:41] Speaker 1: That's all you gotta do. Maybecame like ten bucks whatever.
[39:44] Speaker 3: So so you got to take care of the guy
[39:46] Speaker 3: watching your car because otherwise, after you play, you go
[39:49] Speaker 3: back out there, your car ain't gonna be there, or
[39:52] Speaker 3: tires are gonna be missing, or something's gonna happen. Right,
[39:55] Speaker 3: so take care of the guy. Come on on the
[39:58] Speaker 3: court and and Charlie and I like, we clipped right away.
[40:03] Speaker 3: We could, we could. I mean, he took me in,
[40:05] Speaker 3: took me on his wing, and you know, I mean
[40:08] Speaker 3: I knew he was the man on the team, but
[40:11] Speaker 3: I was gonna be the man next to the man.
[40:13] Speaker 1: Uh And I knew that a couple of weeks in.
[40:17] Speaker 3: I mean I didn't know it right in the beginning,
[40:19] Speaker 3: but a couple of weeks in with alb Yankee, who
[40:23] Speaker 3: was great coach, very level player players coach, and you know,
[40:29] Speaker 3: he gave me pretty good responsibility early.
[40:33] Speaker 1: And and our team, we didn't have a great team.
[40:36] Speaker 3: We had Fatty Taylor, Bernie Williams, Doug Moow, Neil Johnson,
[40:43] Speaker 3: and Ray Scott. You know, Ray Scott was the veteran
[40:48] Speaker 3: player on our team. So I knew Charlie was gonna shoot,
[40:52] Speaker 3: and I had a little more of an all around game.
[40:56] Speaker 1: So okay, well he's a shooter, so I'm not the
[40:58] Speaker 1: gunner per se.
[41:00] Speaker 3: But there was an opening for a rebounding because I
[41:02] Speaker 3: had averaged twenty rebounds the game in college, so you know,
[41:07] Speaker 3: this is the pros. Maybe I can't average twenty, but
[41:10] Speaker 3: I'm gonna try, you know, And I got fifteen sixteen
[41:13] Speaker 3: most nights and that that experience once again, you know,
[41:20] Speaker 3: it wasn't the quote unquote NBA experience, but I was
[41:25] Speaker 3: now a pro and I was I was officially a pro,
[41:30] Speaker 3: and because I was getting paid to play, and I'd
[41:32] Speaker 3: never been paid to play before.
[41:35] Speaker 1: And that was the beginning of the journey with the
[41:37] Speaker 1: Virginia Squires.
[41:39] Speaker 3: And it was also beginning of learning something because our trainer,
[41:45] Speaker 3: we had a trainer there and he we were having
[41:52] Speaker 3: a scrimmage and he told the coach to take me
[41:53] Speaker 3: out of the game. And this nineteen seventy one, right,
[41:59] Speaker 3: it takes me out the game and I come over
[42:03] Speaker 3: and I'd only been playing a couple of minutes. And uh,
[42:08] Speaker 3: he told the coach in front of me, he says,
[42:11] Speaker 3: the guys we're playing against out there, they're going to
[42:14] Speaker 3: try to hurt him.
[42:16] Speaker 1: And he said, I don't want that to happen. Wow,
[42:19] Speaker 1: he said they're going to try to hurt him. So
[42:21] Speaker 1: that was that was an awakening too.
[42:24] Speaker 3: You know, somebody's saying somebody's going to intentionally try to
[42:27] Speaker 3: hurt you because you're better than they are.
[42:30] Speaker 1: And you know, that was an eye opener. Mm hm.
[42:43] Speaker 2: The the ABA experience, the fashion was a big deal.
[42:48] Speaker 2: They note the afros and the fashion was a big deal. Yea, yeah,
[42:53] Speaker 2: and a lot of it. I wondered if.
[42:58] Speaker 3: Some of that was.
[43:01] Speaker 2: Listen, you know a lot of young guys, you're all
[43:03] Speaker 2: young guys. Young guys like fashion much more than an
[43:06] Speaker 2: old guy like me. But was some of it away
[43:10] Speaker 2: to say, hey, man, this league were stylish, there's a
[43:14] Speaker 2: there's a there's art to the ABA. The NBA was overcoached,
[43:18] Speaker 2: but you guys had a style. By the way, the
[43:21] Speaker 2: media liked the style. That's why they paid attention to you.
[43:24] Speaker 2: A lot of startup leagues, Julius don't get any attention
[43:27] Speaker 2: by you know, mainstream legacy media. The legacy media paid
[43:31] Speaker 2: attention to you, And I wonder if the style and
[43:34] Speaker 2: the fashion played into that.
[43:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, now you're talking about you know, nineteen seventy to
[43:41] Speaker 3: nineteen seventy six.
[43:43] Speaker 1: Okay, for me that those those were my five years,
[43:45] Speaker 1: seventy one seventy.
[43:47] Speaker 3: Six, and during that time, you know, and bell bottoms,
[43:53] Speaker 3: wearing afros and were dashikis and stuff like that was
[44:00] Speaker 3: very much in fashion. And you know, people strove to
[44:04] Speaker 3: have an individuality about, you know, their personal lifestyle and
[44:11] Speaker 3: even the spouses, you know, the way they dressed. And
[44:15] Speaker 3: you know, when I got married, which was seventy four,
[44:23] Speaker 3: my wife used saying where you going She'd see what
[44:26] Speaker 3: I had, or where you're going, Like I'm going out.
[44:30] Speaker 1: She said, well, maybe you want to tweak this a
[44:32] Speaker 1: little bit, do.
[44:33] Speaker 3: This or whatever, you know, and so so I think
[44:36] Speaker 3: a lot of the guys had assistants from either their
[44:40] Speaker 3: wives or their sisters in terms of creating their style.
[44:44] Speaker 1: Especially with the hair. Yeah, the hair. The hair was.
[44:50] Speaker 3: I think a matter of addressing your heritage. You know,
[44:56] Speaker 3: we really are an African American. Then you're a descendant
[45:02] Speaker 3: of an African tribe of some kind. And when you
[45:06] Speaker 3: see tribes, you've seen FROs, you see you know, like
[45:11] Speaker 3: now it's the braids and yeah, and the twists and
[45:15] Speaker 3: the turns whatever. I never had my hair braided, and
[45:19] Speaker 3: it was long enough to probably braid, but I always
[45:21] Speaker 3: thought that was like a sissy look. But now now
[45:26] Speaker 3: it's very masculine and it's prevalent.
[45:32] Speaker 2: Before we let you go, your game was so unique
[45:36] Speaker 2: and inventive and creative. When you did get to the
[45:40] Speaker 2: NBA and it was a more structured league, there was
[45:44] Speaker 2: that push and pull where to be Julius. You got
[45:49] Speaker 2: to let the best guy be Julius. But was there
[45:52] Speaker 2: that first year in the NBA did you feel a
[45:56] Speaker 2: little push pull stylistically with your game and the NBA rigidity?
[46:02] Speaker 3: Absolutely, you did, absolutely, And and it was really more
[46:10] Speaker 3: with myself and my teammates. And we had Darryl Dawkins,
[46:15] Speaker 3: we had World B Free at Duncan World B Free,
[46:19] Speaker 3: and we had you know, Dougie Collins and George mcginnit's Cornwell.
[46:26] Speaker 1: And and it was and we got to.
[46:30] Speaker 3: Mid season with that team and I would I wouldn't
[46:35] Speaker 3: say it was easy. The team had its struggles, but
[46:39] Speaker 3: you know, we had won maybe eighty percent of our games.
[46:44] Speaker 1: By the time we get to mid season. And then
[46:47] Speaker 1: we wanted Billy.
[46:51] Speaker 3: That was the second thing was Billy Cunningham his first
[46:53] Speaker 3: year where we wanted to bring somebody in uh and
[47:02] Speaker 3: and change the dynamic of the team. And the first
[47:06] Speaker 3: year with geenis Show, we didn't have to do that,
[47:08] Speaker 3: but with Billy Cunningham, we didn't. We bought in Clement
[47:11] Speaker 3: Johnson and Reggie Johnson Johnson boys and whatever, and one
[47:15] Speaker 3: was big, strong and a husky and the other was
[47:19] Speaker 3: a finesse player. It was a shooter and with both
[47:22] Speaker 3: of them great guys, and they just made a seamless
[47:26] Speaker 3: transition into into what we had going. And unfortunately some
[47:31] Speaker 3: of the guys who we did their first year, they
[47:33] Speaker 3: were no longer there the second year because we'll be free,
[47:36] Speaker 3: went to Cleveland and when George ended up going to
[47:40] Speaker 3: to Denver.
[47:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, the question once again, was there adjustments.
[47:50] Speaker 3: Hell, yeah, there were plenty of adjustments, and and and
[47:56] Speaker 3: I had gone from the Squires to the nets, so
[48:02] Speaker 3: I had experienced an adjustment, but the adjustment from the
[48:07] Speaker 3: nets to the sixers was a much bigger adjustment. It
[48:12] Speaker 3: was huge, it was it was huge, and you know,
[48:17] Speaker 3: the reward was, Hey, this is the business. You know,
[48:21] Speaker 3: got a good contract, let's go. You're getting paid to play,
[48:25] Speaker 3: so so go and play.
[48:27] Speaker 2: Do you think your ABA stats will ever be included
[48:30] Speaker 2: in NBA history?
[48:32] Speaker 1: Oh?
[48:32] Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, Like right now, I would say ninety nine
[48:37] Speaker 3: percent of the times when I when I go somewhere,
[48:40] Speaker 3: make a public appearance or whatever, they always you know,
[48:44] Speaker 3: mentioned that I'm at in the thirty thousand point club
[48:47] Speaker 3: and four time MVP and a two time Playoff MVP,
[48:51] Speaker 3: and so on and so forth.
[48:53] Speaker 2: So the basketball community except so, so it's a given.
[48:56] Speaker 1: The basketball community accepts it.
[48:58] Speaker 3: And I think you know, sometimes in television broadcasts they
[49:03] Speaker 3: don't like to go earlier in nineteen ninety two, like
[49:09] Speaker 3: so I noticed that because you know, there was I mean,
[49:11] Speaker 3: there was no ESPN when Trying played, and you know,
[49:18] Speaker 3: so you know, ESPN is kind of like the sports network,
[49:22] Speaker 3: right other than the cable situations, and so they didn't exist,
[49:28] Speaker 3: so they don't have a.
[49:29] Speaker 1: Handle on that. They don't care about it.
[49:32] Speaker 2: I care about them, of course. Soul Power it's on
[49:38] Speaker 2: Amazon Prime. Legend of the ABA. It's fascinating. The footage,
[49:43] Speaker 2: the archive footage is remarkable. The fights are crazy. Fortunately
[49:49] Speaker 2: you didn't have a ton of them. You had a
[49:50] Speaker 2: Skirmisher two with Larry Bird, but everybody did except maybe Magic,
[49:54] Speaker 2: so that doesn't count.
[49:57] Speaker 1: That's funny. I'm gonna start using that. That's okay with.
[50:02] Speaker 2: Everybody, but Magic, right, yep, good, great speaking with you,
[50:07] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[50:08] Speaker 3: It's been my pleasure, absolutely, and you know, there's so
[50:11] Speaker 3: much more to be told. You know, I'm just telling
[50:13] Speaker 3: my version of it, and the fans will really enjoy
[50:17] Speaker 3: this story.
[50:19] Speaker 2: Oh, it's a great four part series I strung for
[50:22] Speaker 2: all you documentary fans, sports or non sports fashion style.
[50:28] Speaker 2: The merger, the I mean the race.
[50:31] Speaker 1: Behind the scenes is all the behind the scenes stuff.
[50:34] Speaker 2: Oh, it's unbelievable with the.
[50:36] Speaker 3: Recruitment of Kareema abdul Jabar. Enjoyed mic and and all
[50:39] Speaker 3: that stuff. It's good stuff.
[50:42] Speaker 1: Thanks Julius, Thank you brother, appreciate you.
[50:46] Speaker 2: So a little non Julius Irving News. Drew Dollman, the
[50:50] Speaker 2: twenty seven year old center who I believe played every
[50:52] Speaker 2: snap for the Bears last year, suddenly retired. Smart guy Stanford.
[50:58] Speaker 3: Guy.
[51:00] Speaker 2: You know, had made his money and just decided it
[51:04] Speaker 2: is a listen man. Playing center in the NFL is
[51:09] Speaker 2: a daunting physical experience. You're you're dealing usually with somebody
[51:15] Speaker 2: about thirty pounds heavier, you know, nose tackles. The Jalen
[51:20] Speaker 2: carters are an experience like none other on a football field,
[51:26] Speaker 2: going Mono Imano. Now Joe Toney and Jonah Jackson at
[51:30] Speaker 2: the guard positions, and the Bears are above average on
[51:33] Speaker 2: the old line as a unit. And it's not a
[51:37] Speaker 2: it's not a bad center draft in the NFL. It's
[51:39] Speaker 2: a good o line year in the NFL, and the
[51:41] Speaker 2: Bears have a first, a second, a third, a fourth,
[51:43] Speaker 2: a fifth, and a couple of seventh rounders, so they'll
[51:46] Speaker 2: they'll obviously furnish this draft is going to be all
[51:50] Speaker 2: defensive players and probably a center. Now I'd mentioned before
[51:55] Speaker 2: they could go all defense during their draft. They obviously
[52:00] Speaker 2: somewhere in one of those picks. There's not a first
[52:03] Speaker 2: round center, but they'll be. It's a good center draft,
[52:07] Speaker 2: not a great wide receiver, tight end or running back draft.
[52:10] Speaker 2: Good tackle, good center draft, good edge rusher draft. But
[52:14] Speaker 2: Dolman's one of those guys. Listen, players make more money.
[52:20] Speaker 2: We've had a couple of Stanford guys retire early, you
[52:25] Speaker 2: know players. I mean, Andrew Luck retired early Stanford, Drew
[52:30] Speaker 2: Dolman retiring early Stanford years ago. The San Francisco forty
[52:34] Speaker 2: nine ers had an interior offensive lineman retire early. Chris
[52:40] Speaker 2: Borland Wisconsin Badger forty nine ers retired early. You know,
[52:45] Speaker 2: offensive lineman, quarterbacks, you know, offensive linemen are in the trenches.
[52:52] Speaker 2: Think about it. No unit in the NFL is more
[52:56] Speaker 2: physically taxing yet gets less credit the offensive line. You know,
[53:02] Speaker 2: pass rushers, dan lineman, that's all anybody talks about during
[53:06] Speaker 2: the broadcast. They get the big money. Left tackles get money,
[53:10] Speaker 2: but interior alignment rarely do. And you know, Drew Dolman,
[53:15] Speaker 2: he still has you know, physically, he's still in a
[53:18] Speaker 2: good space. So it happens. Caleb Williams went to Twitter
[53:23] Speaker 2: and had a sad emoji hulk dot dot dot. It
[53:27] Speaker 2: is a loss. It's the first thing Ben Johnson addressed
[53:33] Speaker 2: was the interior oh line. It comes as a shock,
[53:37] Speaker 2: but I'm always going to defend guys who retire early,
[53:40] Speaker 2: especially guys in the trenches. I remember having a conversation
[53:44] Speaker 2: years ago with Ed Cunningham, who played at the University
[53:47] Speaker 2: of Washington for that national championship team and played for
[53:49] Speaker 2: the Arizona Cardinals. His career was about ten years and
[53:53] Speaker 2: he retired and he was still, you know, in physically
[53:57] Speaker 2: good shape, and he just talked about what playing center,
[54:01] Speaker 2: because he was an undersized center, kind of a cerebral
[54:04] Speaker 2: academic center, but undersized what it did to your shoulders
[54:07] Speaker 2: and your hands, and that it's a really tough position
[54:10] Speaker 2: to play. I mean, you you age fast in the
[54:14] Speaker 2: interior offensive line, and so you know, I grew up
[54:19] Speaker 2: there was a center named Jim Otto who played forever
[54:24] Speaker 2: for the Raiders and pretty sad Mike Webster for the
[54:29] Speaker 2: Pittsburgh Steelers. And in the history of the NFL, those
[54:32] Speaker 2: two guys had some post football trauma they dealt with,
[54:37] Speaker 2: which has been well chronicled. And I understand in this
[54:42] Speaker 2: great game players retiring earlier, especially those who are playing
[54:47] Speaker 2: in the most daunting, punitive positions. And so I wish
[54:51] Speaker 2: Drew Dollman the best. You know, between Atlanta and the Bears,
[54:55] Speaker 2: it's a career to be proud of. But you know
[54:58] Speaker 2: the Bears are going to have to address. The good
[55:00] Speaker 2: news is the offense is stacked. Ben Johnson has a
[55:06] Speaker 2: great sense of offensive personnel, especially, and I think they'll
[55:12] Speaker 2: figure it out. But it comes as a shock, and
[55:16] Speaker 2: you know you're seeing not every football player lives and
[55:22] Speaker 2: breathes for the sport. You know a lot of them
[55:24] Speaker 2: love it. It's a journey. They ascend and they reach
[55:28] Speaker 2: a point physically where they don't want to be wobbling
[55:31] Speaker 2: with their kids. You know, they don't want to have
[55:33] Speaker 2: a bad back, and you know by the seventh shoulder surgery.
[55:37] Speaker 2: I've told the story before. I read a story a
[55:39] Speaker 2: couple of years ago in Travis Kelcey and he's already
[55:41] Speaker 2: had ten surgeries. I was aware of like one. So
[55:46] Speaker 2: always going to defend an athlete, a professional football player
[55:48] Speaker 2: who retires early tip of the Captain Drew Dolman and
[55:52] Speaker 2: now the Bears need to go to work.
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