# CPI Podcast Ep. 26 - Sir Paul Altman: Heritage Preservation & Real Estate Development in Barbados

An episode of [Caribbean Property Investing](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1549971137), 6 Sep 2021, 47 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1630822/episodes/9146741-cpi-podcast-ep-26-sir-paul-altman-heritage-preservation-real-estate-development-in-barbados.mp3

Sir Paul Altman is a Caribbean Real Estate icon. Returning home to Barbados in the 70s from university with a Business Degree and economics major, he joined his father's real estate business. His success and experience in managing the properties of typical non-resident family friends and associates gave him the confidence to make the bold move to develop his first shopping centre. Hear the challenges of embarking on such a journey, as well as those associated with a second high-end lifestyle shopping centre. Additionally, get valuable insight into how he got into Heritage Preservation because of his involvement in the National Trust as well as to fulfill the wishes of his late father. With a wealth of experience, discover how he's been able to attract non-national investors to contribute to preserving some of Barbados' heritage sites while still enjoying commercial success. Learn the key attributes of what it takes to run a full service real estate company and the two tenets he has adopted to achieve success and longevity in the industry. Finally hear his outlook for Real Estate in Barbados and the wider Caribbean post Covid19. 🎙 Caribbean Property Investing Podcast Helping you build wealth through real estate across the Caribbean. Subscribe, rate & share this podcast. Connect with us: YouTube | Instagram | LinkedIn Start your journey to financial independence today.

## Transcript

[0:09] SPEAKER_02: Learn about interest to power build and properties to help you create your plan for financial freedom.
[0:15] SPEAKER_01: Now let's get started.
[0:18] SPEAKER_01: I love my community.
[0:20] SPEAKER_01: It teaches you the importance of being together even for difficult times.
[0:24] SPEAKER_01: Business owners doing their best to make it through.
[0:27] SPEAKER_01: Fishermen and farmers working hard to put food on our tables.
[0:30] SPEAKER_01: Mrs.
[0:31] SPEAKER_01: Caring for the Sick shows me who we are made of.
[0:34] SPEAKER_01: People who care.
[0:35] SPEAKER_01: I guess it's about growing together.
[0:44] SPEAKER_00: To ruminate, to create your ultimate living space.
[0:48] SPEAKER_00: And at courts, you'll find what you need.
[0:51] SPEAKER_00: Choose from our wide range of furniture, electronics, and accessories to complete your space.
[1:01] SPEAKER_00: We're here and ready to assist.
[1:03] SPEAKER_00: Give us a call to place your order.
[1:05] SPEAKER_00: Shop online at shopcourts.com or visit us in store.
[1:10] SPEAKER_00: So ruminate at courts, bringing value home.
[1:15] SPEAKER_03: Welcome to another episode of the Caribbean Property Investing Podcast, episode 26.
[1:22] SPEAKER_03: And we always say that we have special guests today.
[1:27] SPEAKER_03: I mean, we we we're so honored to have our special guests.
[1:32] SPEAKER_03: Uh today we have Sir Paul Altman from Barbados.
[1:37] SPEAKER_03: One may regard him as uh an icon in the regional property development and real estate landscape.
[1:45] SPEAKER_03: Uh he's also a uh well-known philanthropist in Barbados.
[1:50] SPEAKER_03: He's also a building and site restorationist as well as an avid golfer.
[1:55] SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Support.
[1:57] SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having me.
[2:00] SPEAKER_03: We want to thank you because we know you you have quite a busy schedule, so we'll get uh uh right to it.
[2:06] SPEAKER_03: Why don't you give the the audience uh a little bit of your your your background and your life before property?
[2:14] SPEAKER_04: Well, I don't know there was much of a life before property.
[2:17] SPEAKER_04: My life is in all property, but um yes, I of course was born in Barbados, went to school here, um, and then went to university in the States, the United States.
[2:29] SPEAKER_04: And um uh many of my contemporaries went on to stay where they were or move into other places.
[2:40] SPEAKER_04: Uh but I Barbados that was around 19 uh 70, and I decided that I wanted to come back home.
[2:47] SPEAKER_04: Barbados was six years into independence and things were changing.
[2:51] SPEAKER_04: Barbados was taking on a new image in terms of how it saw itself as a country, it wanted to get involved in business other than sugar, and of course, real estate was something that I had a love for, uh not without cause.
[3:10] SPEAKER_04: I mean, my my father in the 60s started to get involved in real estate just on a personal basis, and I was at university and watching and learning from him, and I felt that the opportunity was there for me to come back and get involved in that business.
[3:30] SPEAKER_03: What did you do at school?
[3:31] SPEAKER_03: What was your area of uh study?
[3:33] SPEAKER_04: Well, I I majored in in business uh with a I the degree is in business, but with a major in economics.
[3:43] SPEAKER_04: And I always said that it doesn't always follow that you get into the area of your study, but I think study just guides you in many other ways.
[3:52] SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay, so you fresh out of college, uh your your father started, you know, putting on some, I guess, some some some pillars, upon intended, in in property.
[4:03] SPEAKER_03: And how was that, Jennifer?
[4:04] SPEAKER_03: You how did you you first start?
[4:06] SPEAKER_04: Well, okay, so I I came back and and the natural thing for me to do as an only child was to get involved with with his business, which I did.
[4:16] SPEAKER_04: Um, but then I felt like I needed to do something on my own, and together with a friend of mine, we were able to find ways to get involved without necessarily having to spend our money.
[4:30] SPEAKER_04: We we were lucky, we we had friends that owned property, and these were families um that that trusted us to uh pay them for these properties.
[4:42] SPEAKER_04: Um and over time, so we were able to go to the bank and over and and and we did specifically did one of the first projects was a project that I did in Spikestown, which is a town that I have continued to have a close link to, a very historical town in Barbados.
[5:01] SPEAKER_04: Um, and and I guess that we assembled some properties owned by a few people uh on the basis that we found uh tenants for those properties, having redesigned them into what we describe as a shopping mall.
[5:16] SPEAKER_04: Um, so we we did a lot of footwork and to to to to attract the quality tenants that we were able to attract.
[5:26] SPEAKER_04: Um and I have to tell you that was a that was a learning experience and it was more of a life experience because we without much money uh assembled a group of properties and built a 50,000 square foot shopping center, which we still own as a as a partnership today.
[5:44] SPEAKER_04: Um and we watched every penny.
[5:48] SPEAKER_04: I mean, the at that time we were talking money that we didn't know about.
[5:53] SPEAKER_04: I mean, we were talking about a a center that was earmarked to cost three million Barbados dollars, one and a half million US dollars.
[6:02] SPEAKER_04: Um, but we had the tenants for it, so it on paper it worked.
[6:07] SPEAKER_04: However, uh, as things happen in life sometimes, the interest rate went to 17%, unheard of.
[6:16] SPEAKER_04: And I would wake up at night in a sweat saying, Well, look, this was a venture that was not going to happen, it wasn't gonna work.
[6:25] SPEAKER_04: Um, but the tenants were there, and we were very carefully.
[6:30] SPEAKER_04: We took us maybe 15 to 20 years to pay for that uh experience, but we own it today, uh, thankfully, without having any more problems with it.
[6:44] SPEAKER_04: So that was the first venture in real estate, and of course, then that that same friend of mine was in the real estate business.
[6:50] SPEAKER_04: At that time, Barbados was starting to develop a tourism uh market.
[6:55] SPEAKER_04: Um, and we saw the opportunity to get into or he saw that opportunity before me, and then I joined him in that business and eventually bought him out.
[7:04] SPEAKER_04: But that's the business that I'm in today, which is um related to everything that real estate does.
[7:11] SPEAKER_04: In fact, people say to me, but what do you do in real estate?
[7:15] SPEAKER_04: I said I do a little bit of everything and a lot of nothing.
[7:18] SPEAKER_04: So I what I'm saying is that I I do everything that you can do under that banner of real estate.
[7:27] SPEAKER_03: Not knowing Barbulas too well, I do know that Spice Down obviously is not the capital.
[7:33] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I know that a lot of opportunities, especially in real estate, don't come up you know uh in the hot spots at the time.
[7:42] SPEAKER_03: It's always future-looking.
[7:43] SPEAKER_03: So it was bold, just just listening that your first project would be uh trying to tie up you know close proximity properties to do uh uh a mall.
[7:55] SPEAKER_03: But what was it was it because of the the the opportunity that presented itself in Spikes Town, or it was the next big big thing?
[8:02] SPEAKER_03: And I'm asking that or making that statement compared to to Bridgetown.
[8:06] SPEAKER_03: Why why wouldn't you you want to do that business in Bridgetown where there's maybe a bigger population and the center of the hustle and bustle in Barbados?
[8:15] SPEAKER_04: Okay, but that that's a good question.
[8:17] SPEAKER_04: And the answer there is that I grew up around Spikestown, so I knew the town very well.
[8:21] SPEAKER_04: Um, I also was involved uh in the National Trust of Barbados.
[8:25] SPEAKER_04: I was president of the National Trust, having served there for many years.
[8:29] SPEAKER_04: But those were the young years when I was just getting involved in the National Trust, and I understood what the heritage meant to that town, and I felt it was an opportunity to get involved in a place where I knew the surroundings.
[8:43] SPEAKER_04: Secondly, there were not other places in Bridgetown.
[8:46] SPEAKER_04: I didn't have connections where people would actually hand over properties on the basis that we had tenants and that we had put together a scheme.
[8:54] SPEAKER_04: So that was it was a full opportunity, and and and you know, we all make mistakes, and uh sometimes the mistake that I made there was that I assumed back in 1980 that uh that things would change faster in Spikes Down.
[9:13] SPEAKER_04: In fact, what is most interesting is that it is right now in 2021 that there is a sudden uh growth in the uh excitement and development in Spikes Town.
[9:28] SPEAKER_04: So that we after waiting for over 40 years, we are now seeing what I was hoping to see in a happen in in five or ten years.
[9:38] SPEAKER_04: Um, one of those things.
[9:40] SPEAKER_04: Of course, one of the things that happened in Spikes Town was the main road that was leading from the bridgetown through to the north of the island was always through Spikestown.
[9:52] SPEAKER_04: But government then went and built a bypass road, which took all the traffic out of the town.
[9:57] SPEAKER_04: And in many ways, whereas it provided uh easy access to the north, it killed business in the town.
[10:04] SPEAKER_04: So those were parts of the of the you couldn't anticipate all of those things.
[10:09] SPEAKER_03: The Americans have an expression support, go big or go home.
[10:12] SPEAKER_03: Your first project was uh certainly a big one, especially for a novice, and then you formed uh what we you know today as uh Altman uh real estate.
[10:23] SPEAKER_03: What were some of your your your projects um right after the mall, the first one?
[10:29] SPEAKER_04: Well, the the first thing that I was focusing on was the main business that I'm still in today, which is the Altman real estate business.
[10:36] SPEAKER_04: And that business, we we were uh very much pioneering at the time.
[10:43] SPEAKER_04: The the type of business we were doing were was really looking after properties that were purchased by wealthy people from overseas where we looked after and managed the properties.
[10:54] SPEAKER_04: We uh did everything.
[10:56] SPEAKER_04: We had someone in our business that was doing decorating and landscaping.
[11:01] SPEAKER_04: Uh, we were employing the staff, paying wages, and and renting these properties when the owners weren't using them.
[11:09] SPEAKER_04: And of course, then we the there was the follow-on sale and purchase by more of these people coming onto into Barbados to use it as a vacation uh winter resort uh vacation uh spot.
[11:24] SPEAKER_04: So that business grew nicely, we didn't have much competition, and then we got affiliated with international companies.
[11:30] SPEAKER_04: We were affiliated at that time with Sotheby's.
[11:34] SPEAKER_04: Um, so it gave another dimension to so that we we could talk about us being with an international affiliate.
[11:43] SPEAKER_04: Um, we had many affiliates we over the years.
[11:46] SPEAKER_04: I I tell people we had uh connections with some of these uh big brand names, uh but each one seemed to have lasted 15 years.
[11:56] SPEAKER_04: So after 15 years with Sotheby's, they saw the company, and we were wooed into becoming affiliated with Christie's.
[12:05] SPEAKER_04: And Christie's was more known for the art market, but they had started a real estate division in the United States at the time, um, in Santa Fe, uh New Mexico, and there many of these Sotheby's people went over to Christie's and we went to Christie's.
[12:21] SPEAKER_04: And that was another journey because being affiliated with some of these companies gave us another set of connections and taught us a lot, I should say.
[12:33] SPEAKER_04: Um, and and literally, but because as I said, Christie's was in the United States, we found that our clientele were more UK, uh sort of from originating out of the UK.
[12:46] SPEAKER_04: Um, and Christie's promised to get involved with real estate in the UK.
[12:50] SPEAKER_04: They were there with the arts and uh with auctions, but they were not there with real estate.
[12:56] SPEAKER_04: And after 15 years, um they still hadn't gotten involved in in the UK, and we had an opportunity to get involved and represent Sables, and Sables is the largest uh real estate company based in the UK, but they're also global, they're in Russia, they're in uh you know in every part of the world.
[13:18] SPEAKER_04: They're of course in the United States, um, and and wherever we we could do business that they were well represented, but their center was the UK, where we were doing most of our business.
[13:30] SPEAKER_04: And we still today are the uh exclusive affiliate of uh Sables and Barbados, linking us also through many of the other Caribbean islands, including St.
[13:41] SPEAKER_04: Lucia.
[13:43] SPEAKER_03: We do have a local a local representative.
[13:46] SPEAKER_03: Your your journey is an interesting one, uh because most of the other property developers uh or real estate investors we've interviewed, uh, they would typically build or buy.
[13:59] SPEAKER_03: But in your case, from from from what you you you you you shared, it's almost like you were your your center and your origin was property management.
[14:08] SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that's a different type of dynamic.
[14:09] SPEAKER_03: That's all about relationship, is it not?
[14:12] SPEAKER_04: But you say that, yeah, but as I said, we do a little bit of everything and a lot of nothing.
[14:18] SPEAKER_04: So right now we even have a division of our business that specializes in in consultation, evaluations, in in project management.
[14:30] SPEAKER_04: Um, so so we touch every area, but but the one that I really enjoy is is the development aspect.
[14:36] SPEAKER_04: Of course, we um have just been invited to be a part of a mission from Barbados to Dubai.
[14:45] SPEAKER_04: You ask me why we would go to Dubai?
[14:47] SPEAKER_04: We don't get business out of Dubai, but Dubai is going to have an international uh real estate uh uh fair business, actually, every type of business.
[14:58] SPEAKER_04: Um, so there I think there are 95 countries going to be um involved in that.
[15:03] SPEAKER_04: So just yesterday I recorded that we are doing a video to represent our company in Dubai.
[15:10] SPEAKER_04: Um and the two projects that I highlighted are projects that I am not involved in directly, but where we represent clients.
[15:18] SPEAKER_04: One of them, of course, is Ape Sil, which is a golf project, but it's complete with residential and and and expects to have a hotel on a beach.
[15:28] SPEAKER_04: So it's a quite a major project for Barbados.
[15:31] SPEAKER_04: Uh uh and and in in effect, we sold uh that property to the current investor and are the lead agents there.
[15:41] SPEAKER_04: So we are working closely with them and trying to develop other opportunities within ApeSell, uh not just their selling properties.
[15:51] SPEAKER_04: So we we see and guide projects where we find opportunities.
[15:56] SPEAKER_04: And the other project that I talked about was the Pear Head project in Bridgetown, and and that Peer Head project is one that's near and dear to my heart.
[16:05] SPEAKER_04: And I'm taking you into our wonderful Bridgetown, which is now a World Heritage UNESCO uh site.
[16:13] SPEAKER_04: Um and and the the connection with Bridgetown is one that goes back to when I was on the board of what was then Barbados Shipping and Trading, the ST, which owned tons of properties and owned lots of properties and types of businesses in Barbados and the Caribbean, and sold out to Massey.
[16:33] SPEAKER_04: So Massey then owned this peerhead project, and we had done a lot of work on it over many years, and finally I found an investor who was uh, I would say the best word I can think of, very trusting, having seen what I did uh in other places, and asked me to guide that project for him.
[16:57] SPEAKER_04: Um, and that is one that I am deeply involved in now.
[17:01] SPEAKER_04: It is what we call a mixed-use project.
[17:03] SPEAKER_04: It will have apartments, it has a beachfront, it has cabanas, a beach club, has shops, it has offices, it has restaurants, anything you can think of should be in there.
[17:12] SPEAKER_04: It's all waterfront.
[17:13] SPEAKER_04: So if you know Bridgetown, it's on the careenage, uh, which means that uh in effect, uh boats can come in to the property and actually tie up to what we call a wharf.
[17:28] SPEAKER_04: Um, so it this is the type of thing that that really excites me, mainly because uh I like to believe that I've had a lot of connections with it over many years.
[17:40] SPEAKER_04: And I as a result of that, you get to know the and feel the project.
[17:43] SPEAKER_04: I'll give you an example.
[17:45] SPEAKER_04: When I was working on a project with the ST, um we went to the uh Urban Land Institute in the United States, and we had drawings then.
[17:55] SPEAKER_04: So you take a project like that, you go to the Urban Land Institute where you become a member, and you have them critique the project.
[18:02] SPEAKER_04: This doesn't cost you much, literally a couple hundred dollars.
[18:06] SPEAKER_04: But you go to this meeting where you have some of the biggest developers from all over the world, well, it's the United States mainly, but um such as Simon Corporation or the Rouse Corporation, who have done most of the waterfront developments in the United States.
[18:22] SPEAKER_04: So these are the people with the experience.
[18:24] SPEAKER_04: You meet the rail people, they look at what you're doing, and they say, Well, you need to change this or change that.
[18:30] SPEAKER_04: And as much of an expert as we think we are, it's always important that you get people that are that have done it in a much bigger way to take a look.
[18:40] SPEAKER_04: So these are the types of things that that I enjoy, get involved in, and of course the heritage side of it.
[18:47] SPEAKER_04: Um, as I said, it's a UNESCO area, and one of the uh instructions we are we have given to our architects who we work closely with is that we want to retain as much of the old character of what is there as possible.
[19:02] SPEAKER_03: One of the benefits of having development or developing around the Carinage in the Caribbean is that it gives great access uh to uh shipping vessels, but also recreational leisure vessels like tours, um, and in Greenela in particular, you know, the Carinage is beautiful and well developed, and you actually have cafes and restaurants uh on there.
[19:24] SPEAKER_03: I actually took a uh uh a cruise boat from there.
[19:27] SPEAKER_03: It's it's like uh it's like a big banana boat, but it's a little more serious.
[19:31] SPEAKER_03: You you trap one and you go to do the underwater um museum.
[19:36] SPEAKER_03: Um, but I was saying so, Paul, I I sense a strong preservationist uh quality in what you're doing.
[19:42] SPEAKER_03: Um and for me, whenever I spend too much time outside of the Caribbean, you always have this long end that when you go back, you want to fix things and you want to see things.
[19:51] SPEAKER_03: Tell us about that part of your business and and and how that gets you into certain projects, especially the most popular one, maybe most famous one that we know of were you involved in, and that's the synagogue in Bridgetown.
[20:03] SPEAKER_04: I tell people it's a project that really is something that I feel very lucky to have been involved in.
[20:11] SPEAKER_04: Um, it is a project that I uh got involved in just by chance.
[20:16] SPEAKER_04: Uh, again, wearing my National Trust heritage hat, and government at the time wanting to build a new Supreme Court building, uh, decided that that was their location.
[20:28] SPEAKER_04: And it was not a synagogue that was used at the time, it was a building that had been sold in 1925 and converted into many other uses at that time, uh and that was around 1983, 84.
[20:44] SPEAKER_04: Uh, government was simply wanting to acquire properties to build a new Supreme Court, and this was a derelict building.
[20:50] SPEAKER_04: But what really caused us to get involved, and I said us because my father was really the lead person that wanted and said that this thing had to happen.
[21:00] SPEAKER_04: And the reason was that they wanted to acquire some of the graveyard and remove graves, and he said, absolutely no way.
[21:07] SPEAKER_04: Um, and I say that because we we come from a Jewish background.
[21:11] SPEAKER_04: Uh, my father, my grandfather came to Barbados uh over 90 years ago.
[21:18] SPEAKER_04: So we're looking for the hundred now.
[21:20] SPEAKER_04: Um, and literally uh he ran away from from oppression uh in Poland.
[21:28] SPEAKER_04: Uh so I'm born here, as I said, but but when when they were going to start to remove graves, my father said, Absolutely, I don't want that to happen.
[21:38] SPEAKER_04: So my wife and I went and did some research and found photographs of what that building, the synagogue, looked like when it was sold just at that time in 1925.
[21:48] SPEAKER_04: And we ran, I ran to the Prime Minister and said, Look, Prime Minister, this is the type of building you're knocking down.
[21:54] SPEAKER_04: I can get it restored.
[21:55] SPEAKER_04: And it was a marvelous old building, very historical, built in 1650.
[22:00] SPEAKER_04: So one of the earliest structures on this island.
[22:03] SPEAKER_04: And these were the people that came to the island, and there's a long story attached to it.
[22:08] SPEAKER_04: One of the first settlers, the what they call the Spanish-Portuguese Jews, and a lot of history attached to them being here.
[22:16] SPEAKER_04: Anyway, we we the this long story short is that the Prime Minister said, if you can, and this was Tom Adams at the time, he said, if you can find the resources to get this building restored, I guess he said, you know, we will move the Supreme Court.
[22:32] SPEAKER_04: And they so said so done.
[22:33] SPEAKER_04: He moved the Supreme Court.
[22:35] SPEAKER_04: Um, I worked uh for you know since 1983, so it's you know, we we're talking getting on to the 40 year again.
[22:45] SPEAKER_04: And um and the building, we did not only the building, we built a museum, we restored a graveyard, we built a social hall, we repaired a building that was there for artisans, we built a monument for emancipation because the emancipation bill was signed in a building that was a part of that site in the first parliament of Barbados had.
[23:04] SPEAKER_04: So this monument is a fabulous monument.
[23:06] SPEAKER_04: We did a what we call a park for cars rather than a car park.
[23:11] SPEAKER_04: And we restored the original Bridgetown Fire Station and created uh an area in there for an art gallery and a cafe.
[23:19] SPEAKER_04: So, and we created a fire museum as well.
[23:22] SPEAKER_04: So the story of fires and barbittis, and there were many in days gone by.
[23:28] SPEAKER_04: Um, so that that project has to be the one that I would be proudest of, but and you know, but the one that you talked about, you said Carinage, I said Carinage, but that other project is the one that brings me back into Bridgetown wearing my heritage hat.
[23:42] SPEAKER_04: One of the things about that project is that it encompasses an area which is uh which includes an uh what is known as an old screw dock.
[23:51] SPEAKER_04: It's an area where uh the old sailing vessels that sailed around the Caribbean would go in and they would sail into an underground or underwater uh kit cradle.
[24:04] SPEAKER_04: And by turning some some large uh sort of uh screw-like uh items that were surrounding this area where they sailed in, that cradle was lifted out of the water and the boat uh literally came out with it.
[24:22] SPEAKER_04: So we're going to restore that uh that screw dock.
[24:25] SPEAKER_04: It's one of the, I believe, two like it in the world.
[24:29] SPEAKER_04: Um has a lot of history, and we're gonna hopefully put back a schooner in there and create a museum to tell that story about the interisland trading.
[24:38] SPEAKER_04: So there's not just an element of commercializing an area, it's an element that you have to have a soul and a heart involved in in trying to preserve what is important about the history of what represents the Caribbean, not only Barbados.
[24:53] SPEAKER_04: I should say, let me just say that the investor there is that type of person.
[24:57] SPEAKER_04: Uh, he is someone that developed something called the Epic Center in Dublin, in Ireland, which is tells the history of the Irish people, uh the diaspora.
[25:08] SPEAKER_04: Um, and he won an award for that project, the Epic Center, as the number one tourist destination in Europe, not in Ireland, not in the UK, but in Europe.
[25:18] SPEAKER_04: So you can understand that this is someone who understood who himself appreciates what heritage is about and history.
[25:26] SPEAKER_03: You actually you actually preempted my my my next question.
[25:29] SPEAKER_03: First, I was I was I was saying that that's the very essence of branding and the authenticity of the story and of the location needs to be pointed out in in the naming of the of the of the site.
[25:43] SPEAKER_03: So so I can appreciate that 100%.
[25:47] SPEAKER_03: I know that our viewers and listeners will be asking, but where does the poll get those investors from?
[25:52] SPEAKER_03: How does he attract um persons to invest their money into uh site preservation uh uh initiatives and at the same time some commercialization?
[26:01] SPEAKER_03: So, what's the process typically?
[26:03] SPEAKER_03: I mean, for persons interested, how do you go about attracting investors for those heritage and mixed-use uh projects?
[26:12] SPEAKER_04: I wouldn't like to suggest that it's easy.
[26:15] SPEAKER_04: Um I guess that you have to have a passion yourself, and that passion rubs off on people.
[26:22] SPEAKER_04: And we're lucky to have people uh like the one I described and and others that come and take on uh a sort of a commitment to Barbados more than just having a home here.
[26:34] SPEAKER_04: They see this island as something special to them in every way possible.
[26:38] SPEAKER_04: Um, and and with me trying to take my passion and my experience, if if you want to call it that, to them and having these discussions, these are people that that see these opportunities as something that they want to be a part of.
[26:55] SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, you you guess, I guess that they're not necessarily young people, although the profile is changing, but there are people who, you know, we don't have as we go through life, uh if if we if we share passions and and we have some experience, uh we hope that out of that will come something that we use the word legacy.
[27:20] SPEAKER_04: So it's not it's not necessarily all about making money.
[27:22] SPEAKER_04: Money has to be a priority, but nobody wants to lose money, I don't care how much money they have.
[27:29] SPEAKER_04: So we we work hard to achieve both objectives, which is to do something that is meaningful and to get a return, uh financial return from doing that.
[27:42] SPEAKER_04: Um, and so far we've we've you know been lucky.
[27:46] SPEAKER_04: Uh the project that I talked about, Lion Grove, is one is a similar one where I I led that project, uh, found a number of investors with me.
[27:56] SPEAKER_04: Um and I guess I tell people that my dedication to any project I get involved in is one that is best described by saying it will never fail as a result of not of me not giving it my best effort.
[28:10] SPEAKER_04: If having given it my best effort and and and and and the assistance of so many qualified and competent people around me, if all of us put everything into it and it fails, well then that is something that I would have tremendous regrets.
[28:25] SPEAKER_04: Uh but uh you know the the the objective is to do it right um and to give it everything that you have.
[28:34] SPEAKER_04: And and you can't control everything.
[28:36] SPEAKER_04: We couldn't control COVID, we can't control volcanoes, we can't control hurricanes, but what you can control, we control.
[28:44] SPEAKER_04: And and and that is what makes it real in my eyes.
[28:49] SPEAKER_03: On the business side of property, when doing a a mall, and I and I agree, um, I would never call it a lifestyle center, or you mean a lifestyle center or a mall?
[29:00] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, a lifestyle center.
[29:01] SPEAKER_03: I would never call it a mall.
[29:03] SPEAKER_03: And for me, let me tell you why.
[29:04] SPEAKER_03: The the the variation in in architectural styles um is is so immersive um from my experience because the the front part is so modern, and as you go into the Spanish courtyard, um it becomes uh it becomes uh I guess more Victorian, and then I see some some Tuscany, I see some some old England, it's it is it is unique in my opinion, in terms of of being a shopping in the Caribbean.
[29:38] SPEAKER_03: Um so so I want to ask a question.
[29:41] SPEAKER_03: What kind of of KPIs, what kind of return, what kind of thinking you know, should an investor uh listening now?
[29:49] SPEAKER_03: What kind of thinking should I have?
[29:51] SPEAKER_03: When I when I if if I invest in in a lifestyle center, um do I know for the first four years, forget about returns?
[29:58] SPEAKER_03: And it's not about returns.
[29:59] SPEAKER_03: I know I must be covering my my cost, my financing costs.
[30:02] SPEAKER_03: Um, but what is it it really is a long game, is it not?
[30:06] SPEAKER_03: We're looking at 10, 15 year timeline horizon for for payback.
[30:11] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, you're getting into an area that that that may be uh the most important area because people are, as you as I said, these are people that want, and myself included, want to do something and do it right.
[30:24] SPEAKER_04: Um, we recognize that there is a uh a sort of in real estate that you the payback is not something that is immediate, that you have to have what we call staying power.
[30:35] SPEAKER_04: Um we were involved with starting a property fund, which we sold uh well, I think five years ago, and it was the uh Fortress Caribbean property fund, and that's the one that did the project in St.
[30:47] SPEAKER_04: Lucia, um villas on the green.
[30:50] SPEAKER_04: Um, so we in a property fund where it is purely uh trying to get that return because you you're now dealing with 2,000 or more investors uh or shareholders, uh you you literally are setting a target of saying 10 percent a 10% return.
[31:07] SPEAKER_04: You you you know you you're putting that into your numbers.
[31:11] SPEAKER_04: Um if you have uh someone that has a longer uh sort of how to put it uh outlook for for returns, anywhere between five uh and and and ten percent uh becomes more of a realistic number.
[31:30] SPEAKER_04: Um and and of course, we as I said, we don't build in the the the sort of problems that can occur.
[31:38] SPEAKER_04: So when you have a hurricane and a volcano and covet, uh those affect shopping centers in a major way.
[31:47] SPEAKER_04: We we were literally shut for for nearly a year, uh with only a skeleton number of uh operators.
[31:54] SPEAKER_04: So you work closely with the banks and you you you take a deep breath and you realize that you have to redevelop and recreate.
[32:01] SPEAKER_04: Now, at Line Grove, as an example, the full signature of what we started with in terms of retail has changed.
[32:09] SPEAKER_04: The world has changed.
[32:10] SPEAKER_04: So the retail now is more e-commerce.
[32:13] SPEAKER_04: Uh so you the the necessity of having large brand name stores um for uh fashion type items is not what it was, but they still need some of them and they need showrooms and and and and now we see we're seeing food and and creative uh uh new project uh businesses that are that are coming in.
[32:38] SPEAKER_04: We are just about to sign with a gourmet supermarket of 10,000 square feet.
[32:43] SPEAKER_04: So that is going to replace some some of the other weaknesses.
[32:47] SPEAKER_04: We're gonna build a a two or three-level car park, and news now start to look at um getting uh photovoltaic uh generation of power from from the rooftop of of these buildings.
[33:01] SPEAKER_04: So, you know, the the full, and I can go on and on, the the full uh realization that that business is not what it was, um, we see new opportunities.
[33:11] SPEAKER_04: You know, the the people that that that we see coming into the center now are a complete new wave of people.
[33:19] SPEAKER_04: You know, the the old Bajans saying when we started that center was that we saw a lot of Barbanians that came there and said, This info we, which means this is not for us.
[33:29] SPEAKER_04: Um, this info we, but all of a sudden it has become very much for we because the the former prime minister that I had a lot of connections with, One Arsa, who died recently, he always spoke to me.
[33:41] SPEAKER_04: He talked, he said, Look, we are all aspirational.
[33:44] SPEAKER_04: Don't ever doubt that by raising the bar that you're stepping away from what people want.
[33:50] SPEAKER_04: Everyone wants to be at that level.
[33:54] SPEAKER_04: Um, so the aspirational side of it is something that I I kind of think about a lot.
[34:02] SPEAKER_04: Um, and and I have that other saying that I use, which is nothing is too good for Barbados, or and that would apply to other islands.
[34:09] SPEAKER_04: We have to see ourselves as world class in every way and not be shy about it.
[34:15] SPEAKER_04: It doesn't mean that you have to not cater to the lower end of the market.
[34:19] SPEAKER_04: We have to have room for everything.
[34:21] SPEAKER_04: Just so happens that this project is catering to that higher middle to higher end, um, and that Barbadians are becoming a lot more uh accustomed to want to be a part of that type of uh signature.
[34:38] SPEAKER_03: What do you what are we winding down now?
[34:40] SPEAKER_03: What do you attribute the longevity of Altman Real Estate um uh to?
[34:46] SPEAKER_03: What do you attribute that to?
[34:50] SPEAKER_04: Well, I I I I I guess that there are several ways to answer that.
[34:55] SPEAKER_04: One, of course, is that I get excited by everything that I'm involved in, and and I can't see myself necessarily going and playing golf every day.
[35:06] SPEAKER_04: Um I find as much time as I can for golf and for other things.
[35:10] SPEAKER_04: Last night I went to Lime Grove and I played chess.
[35:13] SPEAKER_04: I played chess on a Wednesday night uh with a friend, and we had some other friends there that would join us.
[35:20] SPEAKER_04: Um, so I get excited by not only helping to create some of these projects, but by being a part of them in every way.
[35:29] SPEAKER_04: I tell people that my late father went to the office until he was 93, he died at 95.
[35:36] SPEAKER_04: So I wouldn't want to let him down by running home and leaving my work to others at this time as yet.
[35:44] SPEAKER_04: Um, and of course, the fact that I I see Barbados constantly changing for the better.
[35:50] SPEAKER_04: And in my small way, I like to feel that I'm contributing to the overall improvement, employment, and my making my contribution the way that I enjoy doing it.
[36:04] SPEAKER_04: So it is in a selfish way, I I enjoy it.
[36:07] SPEAKER_04: Um, in other ways, I I guess that I'm comforted by by the fact that I still have the the strength, the interest, the excitement of being a part of it.
[36:20] SPEAKER_03: And and when when when you look at a profile of Altman Realty, you you you you said at the beginning that you do uh a little bit of everything and a lot of nothing.
[36:31] SPEAKER_03: And perhaps that is what helps uh your firm navigate all the challenges because a typical real estate company would maybe do buying and selling and maybe property management.
[36:43] SPEAKER_03: But the fact that in your firm you have all those other associated ancillary services which are actually critical um to the overall project, do you think that makes you stronger?
[36:53] SPEAKER_03: I think I think it does from the outside.
[36:55] SPEAKER_03: I think it makes your firm more formidable.
[36:59] SPEAKER_04: Yes, you have to be careful um when you spread yourself too thin.
[37:04] SPEAKER_04: I mean, we are now have a strong focus on commercial real estate management.
[37:09] SPEAKER_04: Um and and and that area we've always been involved in, but we've now set it up as a as a separate uh department in our business.
[37:18] SPEAKER_04: So the key to these things is having the right people in place to look after each area.
[37:22] SPEAKER_04: So we have a uh a villa rental department um that is has some people that are extremely competent.
[37:30] SPEAKER_04: We have the long-term rentals, whether it's commercial or residential.
[37:34] SPEAKER_04: Um, of course, we have the the property management, these are for the uh villa uh type uh properties that that we have always that was the core business, managing the holiday rental villas.
[37:49] SPEAKER_04: Um and uh key getting key people in charge, and and basically what I am doing is I am checking with each of these managers in these areas, and and and I I enjoy interacting with the clients that we that we serve.
[38:06] SPEAKER_04: So a lot of my time is the the the sort of social interaction, understanding what is changing, what their requirements are, understanding all of the changes in profile, um and and and really enjoying it because it is it is something that I've always done.
[38:25] SPEAKER_04: But if you enjoy what you do, people say you never work a day in your life.
[38:28] SPEAKER_03: So and outside of the outside of the key natural disasters, and we have we have to put COVID right in there, um, hurricanes.
[38:37] SPEAKER_03: What are some of your your your your major challenges in running this this type of business?
[38:44] SPEAKER_04: I would think the the major challenge is is is really what we're facing now, which is the the COVID.
[38:50] SPEAKER_04: Um I don't see the other areas as as as challenges in the same sense.
[38:55] SPEAKER_04: I I I I have a view on business where I I have two things that I tell people in my business.
[39:03] SPEAKER_04: One, if you don't look wake up on a morning and look forward to coming into work, well then you're in the wrong place.
[39:09] SPEAKER_04: So I want you to feel like I do, which is when you wake up, you're looking forward because you believe that there's an opportunity here for you and that you're doing something that's meaningful for Barbados.
[39:20] SPEAKER_04: And the second thing that I tell people is that it's important to know what is happening with your competition and what's happening around you.
[39:28] SPEAKER_04: But I want you to all adopt what I call a blinkered approach to what you're doing.
[39:33] SPEAKER_04: In other words, as a horse would put blinkers on to see where it's going straight in front of it.
[39:38] SPEAKER_04: That's what I think we need to focus on.
[39:40] SPEAKER_04: Let's let's focus on where we are going, what we need to do, and how we are going to make it happen.
[39:45] SPEAKER_04: And nothing wrong with knowing and sort of taking a look left and right at the same time, but focus on what you are all about.
[39:52] SPEAKER_04: And that's those are maybe the the two major tenets in in how we approach business.
[40:00] SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, while respecting the fact that we have to provide uh excellence of service.
[40:09] SPEAKER_03: And finally, what advice you have for you know our audience, uh, people listening right now, hearing your story, uh, development with a very, very strong conservationist um slant.
[40:24] SPEAKER_03: Um, in addition to covering the full gamut of real estate, what advice you have for anybody listening who might be interested in in that area?
[40:34] SPEAKER_04: Well, I think the best advice I have is that to focus entirely on business is not doing the is not approaching it the correct way.
[40:43] SPEAKER_04: Business and the approach to focusing on business has to be your main focus, but you must get involved in in areas that surround what is uh important in your place of business, whether it's in St.
[40:56] SPEAKER_04: Lucia, Barbados, Grenada, or wherever you are, you have to understand what's happening around you.
[41:02] SPEAKER_04: Um, get involved in in uh in doing charity, doing work in other areas.
[41:10] SPEAKER_04: My involvements, I mean, of course, I involve I'm involved with the university, with charities, with the national trusts, with with different areas that support people.
[41:20] SPEAKER_04: Um, because we are living in small area in small countries.
[41:24] SPEAKER_04: These islands are tiny when you look at them from above.
[41:30] SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think it's our duty as as individuals who are looking to get into business to give back, to feel that you're making a contribution other than your business.
[41:44] SPEAKER_04: Um, business will happen naturally if you if you get the right advice, um, and if you dedicate yourself to it uh in you know in the in the proper way.
[41:56] SPEAKER_04: Let me leave it there.
[41:57] SPEAKER_04: So I I I I my advice is just to approach business and recognize that it takes time, that nothing happens overnight.
[42:05] SPEAKER_04: If you want to get rich quickly, I think you should rob a bank.
[42:08] SPEAKER_04: Um, but you don't get rich quickly by robbing a bank.
[42:11] SPEAKER_04: Um you you need to you need to be dedicated and recognize that getting uh making something work takes a lot of effort and time.
[42:20] SPEAKER_04: Be patient.
[42:21] SPEAKER_04: That's it.
[42:23] SPEAKER_03: And even if you rub a bank, you'll be looking looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life.
[42:27] SPEAKER_03: See, they're gonna come to you know, of course.
[42:29] SPEAKER_04: No, no, no, they will get you.
[42:31] SPEAKER_04: They will get you.
[42:32] SPEAKER_04: Don't worry about that.
[42:33] SPEAKER_04: If you rub your bike, you they will get you.
[42:35] SPEAKER_03: Uh a bonus, a bonus question.
[42:37] SPEAKER_03: Being involved in real estate for so long, what's your outlook for Barbados and the Caribbean in a post-COVID time, if there's such a thing as a post-COVID time?
[42:49] SPEAKER_04: Okay, that again, that's a great question.
[42:51] SPEAKER_04: Um, I I'm the eternal optimist.
[42:55] SPEAKER_04: Um I recognize that in any forward uh development game or or success that you're going to get, you're going to get your setbacks.
[43:08] SPEAKER_04: So recognizing that, I'm always seeing things uh that are taking me to something better.
[43:16] SPEAKER_04: Uh one of those things that I always say is that education has to be one of the number one priorities.
[43:23] SPEAKER_04: And I'm so proud of my involvement with UE, with the University of the West Indies.
[43:29] SPEAKER_04: Uh, I chair the campus here in Barbados, and my sense of what UE does as a contribution uh by educating people.
[43:38] SPEAKER_04: Uh, our uh Vice Chancellor always made the statement that they wanted one graduate in every household in Barbados, and we are certainly well on our way to that, and more than one.
[43:50] SPEAKER_04: Um, the the fact that people become more educated, they become self-confident.
[43:55] SPEAKER_04: So the outlook has to be positive because we are building, uh, you know, we are building on people, and we're building and trying to to do the right things.
[44:05] SPEAKER_04: So the the optimism is there, and I I I use that as my best example of how I see the future for for Barbados and for the Caribbean.
[44:15] SPEAKER_03: Okay.
[44:17] SPEAKER_03: Well, um, so much, so much uh to to unpack there.
[44:21] SPEAKER_03: Um, I I I do feel every time we we have a distinguished guest, there's always uh more information uh that that you you absorb and that you learn or the different perspective on things.
[44:34] SPEAKER_03: And I've always said that hosting a podcast, our the our our guests think that our our listeners believe that you know they are the ones we're trying to share information with.
[44:46] SPEAKER_03: But in fact, we are learning so much at the same time.
[44:50] SPEAKER_03: So many thanks to Paul.
[44:53] SPEAKER_03: You've been listening to another episode of the Caribbean Property Investing Podcast.
[44:58] SPEAKER_03: Remember to check out all of our social pages, uh including our website, uh Caribbean Property Investing.com.
[45:04] SPEAKER_03: Remember what we always say everyone needs somewhere to live.
[45:08] SPEAKER_03: So until next time.
[45:10] SPEAKER_01: I love my community.
[45:12] SPEAKER_01: It teaches you the importance of being together even through difficult times.
[45:16] SPEAKER_01: Business owners doing their best to make it through, fishermen and farmers working hard to put food on our tables.
[45:22] SPEAKER_01: Nurses Caring for the Sick shows me who we are made of.
[45:26] SPEAKER_01: People who care.
[45:27] SPEAKER_01: I guess it's about growing together.
[45:35] SPEAKER_00: To ruminate, to create your ultimate living space.
[45:39] SPEAKER_00: And in courts, you'll find what you need.
[45:42] SPEAKER_00: Choose from our wide range of furniture, electronics, and accessories to complete your space.
[45:52] SPEAKER_00: We're here and ready to assess.
[45:54] SPEAKER_00: Give us a call to place your order.
[45:56] SPEAKER_00: Shop online at shopcourts.com or visit a third store to illuminate a courts bringing value home.
[46:05] SPEAKER_02: Congratulations and thank you for the same.

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