# "Will No One Rid Me of This Turbulent Priest?": Trump’s Fed War

An episode of [Patrick Boyle On Finance](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1547740313), 21 Jan 2026, 26 min.

Audio: https://traffic.megaphone.fm/APO7282589267.mp3

In a highly unusual move - the Department of Justice has opened a criminal investigation into Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell. As America faces a high-stakes standoff over the future of the Federal Reserve, the traditional independence of the nation’s central bank is under direct attack. This video explores the intensifying war between the White House and Fed Chair, over a $2.5 billion headquarters renovation. We break down why many experts believe this probe is a mere pretext intended to bully the Fed into slashing interest rates to rock-bottom levels, potentially putting the long-term stability of the U.S. economy at risk for short-term political gains.We also take a closer look at the "agents of chaos" Bill Pulte, Judge Jeanine Pirro and the "shadow" economic strategies currently in play, from the FHFA’s controversial bond-buying programs to the proposed 10% cap on credit card interest rates. From the strategic blockade in the Senate by Senator Thom Tillis to the "Miran Limbo" on the Fed’s Board of Governors, we unpack the technical and political maneuvers being used to bypass Jerome Powell. Is the U.S. headed toward a "banana republic" risk premium, or can its institutional guardrails hold firm? Join us as we examine the true price of a political Fed and what it means for the future of the dollar. Patrick Boyle on Hidden Forces: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7JqqPA70sutlCJ9bh7kruL?si=Cxz13eubSnGHtHSoVDMgKQ Patrick's Books: Statistics For The Trading Floor: https://amzn.to/3eerLA0 Derivatives For The Trading Floor: https://amzn.to/3cjsyPF Corporate Finance: https://amzn.to/3fn3rvC Ways To Support The Channel: Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/PatrickBoyleOnFinance Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/patrickboyle

## Transcript

[0:00] Donald Cohen, the former vice chair of the Federal Reserve,
[0:04] recently told the FT Economic Show the story of how during the
[0:08] global financial crisis, Ben Bernanke used to joke that his
[0:12] memoirs would one day be titled Before Japan opens.
[0:17] The joke referred to the Fed's frantic weekend efforts during
[0:20] that period to get emergency announcements out on a Sunday
[0:25] night aimed at stabilizing global markets before the Monday
[0:29] morning bell in Tokyo. Historically, these Sunday night
[0:33] announcements are quite rare because the Fed values stability
[0:37] above all else. Unscheduled weekend
[0:40] announcements are the sort of thing worth worrying about, as
[0:43] they tend to be about terrible situations.
[0:46] The 2008 collapses of Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers, the
[0:50] emergency liquidity injections at the onset of the pandemic in
[0:54] 2020, and the regional banking crisis a few years ago that
[0:58] claimed Silicon Valley Bank, amongst others.
[1:01] Under normal conditions, investors don't spend their
[1:04] weekends worrying about what's going on at the Fed.
[1:07] So when they hear there will be a Sunday night announcement,
[1:11] they sit up and take note. The recent silence from the Fed
[1:14] was shattered last Sunday. But this time the emergency was
[1:18] not a failing bank or a credit freeze.
[1:21] It was a direct legal assault from the White House.
[1:24] Jerome Powell, the data-driven Fed chair appointed by Donald
[1:28] Trump in 2018, appeared in an extraordinary video message
[1:32] announcing that the Department of Justice had just served the
[1:36] Fed with grand jury subpoenas. The threat was a criminal
[1:40] indictment over Powell's congressional testimony
[1:43] regarding cost overruns in renovations of the Fed's
[1:47] headquarters. Powell did not reach for the
[1:50] usual polite central bank code. He stated plainly that the
[1:54] building project was a mere pretext.
[1:57] The real motivation, he argued, was retaliation, a criminal
[2:02] cudgel being used because the Fed had refused to set interest
[2:06] rates based on the preferences of the president.
[2:09] It was a moment of profound clarity.
[2:12] Powell was sounding the alarm that the independence of the
[2:15] world's most important financial institution, a cornerstone of
[2:19] global capital markets, was in immediate jeopardy.
[2:23] The environment leading up to this announcement has been quite
[2:27] unusual. While the stakes in finance are
[2:30] high, the silence from corporate leaders has been quite telling.
[2:34] An article in the Financial Times this past Thursday
[2:38] highlighted the pervasive fear amongst corporate leaders.
[2:42] It quoted the CEO of a major Wall Street firm who said he had
[2:46] asked not to be named to avoid being targeted by the president
[2:51] and an environment where prosecutorial power is being
[2:54] wielded as a policy tool. The CEOs have learned that even
[2:58] giving an opinion could have dire consequences.
[3:02] To understand why a criminal subpoena is such a radical
[3:05] departure from the norm, it helps to look at the long and
[3:09] often rocky relationship between American presidents and the
[3:13] Federal Reserve. Friction is not a new invention.
[3:17] Since the Fed was founded that in 1913, presidents have
[3:21] regularly been unhappy with interest rates, and they haven't
[3:24] been shy about saying so. Lyndon B Johnson provided
[3:28] perhaps the most famous example of this tension.
[3:31] In 1965, Furious that William Mcchesney, Martin Junior, had
[3:37] raised interest rates, LBJ summoned him to his ranch in
[3:41] Texas for what he called a trip to the woodshed.
[3:44] Legend has it that the president shoved Martin against a wall,
[3:48] demanding that he lower rates because my boys are dying in
[3:52] Vietnam and he needed cheap money to fund the war.
[3:56] Despite this physical and verbal intimidation, Martin stood his
[4:01] ground. Eventually the storm passed and
[4:04] LBJ, recognizing the institutional importance of the
[4:07] Fed's independence, went on to reappoint Martin to the post in
[4:12] 1967. Decades later, Ronald Reagans
[4:16] administration faced the challenge of Paul Volckers
[4:19] aggressive fight against double digit inflation.
[4:22] Volcker hiked rates as high as 20% in the early 1980s to break
[4:27] the back of the price increases that had plagued the 1970s.
[4:32] While Reagan's Treasury Secretary publicly criticized
[4:35] the Fed, Reagan himself famously refused to comment on monetary
[4:39] policy, sticking to a mantra of non interference and ultimately
[4:44] allowing Volcker to finish the job.
[4:47] By contrast, George HW Bush was never quiet about his belief
[4:52] that Alan Greenspan's refusal to cut rates fast enough cost him
[4:56] the 1992 election. White House pressure is nothing
[5:01] new, but the choice of weapon this time is unprecedented.
[5:05] Past presidents used the bully pulpit or private harangues.
[5:09] They didn't weaponize the Department of Justice to
[5:12] threaten criminal prosecution. As former Fed Vice Chair Alan
[5:16] Blinder noted, while other presidents have griped,
[5:19] sometimes noisily, none have ever threatened a member of the
[5:23] Federal Reserve Board with criminal charges.
[5:26] This shift moves the conflict out of the realm of political
[5:29] disagreement and into an unprecedented legal assault.
[5:34] In advanced economies, this behavior is unheard of.
[5:38] Critics have described the use of grand jury subpoenas to
[5:40] influence interest rates as thuggish.
[5:43] It's the kind of tactic usually observed in Banana Republic,
[5:47] where central bankers don't just risk being fired for failing to
[5:51] provide cheap money, they risk being jailed.
[5:55] By targeting Jerome Powell with a criminal indictment, the
[5:59] administration has turned a policy debate into a fight for
[6:03] personal liberty. The timing and the nature of
[6:06] this legal assault feels less like a well thought out
[6:09] investigation and more like a blunt warning.
[6:12] Jerome Powell's term as Fed chair is set to expire this May,
[6:17] so there's no real rush to get him out.
[6:19] The President is expected to announce a successor within
[6:23] weeks. And to quote Katie Martin at the
[6:25] FT, we all know that whoever gets the job, it'll basically be
[6:29] Donald Trump wearing a moustache as a disguise.
[6:33] There are a bunch of people being discussed as future
[6:36] chairs, and my guess is that it'll be Don Junior, Eric, or,
[6:40] to preserve the image of independence, Jared Kushner.
[6:44] If the goal were simply a change in leadership, the
[6:48] administration could have waited for the clock to run out.
[6:51] Instead, by launching a criminal probe now, the White House is
[6:55] possibly aiming to send a clear message to the entire Federal
[6:59] Reserve staff and any potential successor.
[7:03] If you don't obey the president, you might be dragged through the
[7:06] courts and possibly jailed. This isn't an isolated threat.
[7:11] It's part of a broader campaign to bring the Feds board to
[7:14] appeal while Powell faces the DOJ.
[7:17] Governor Lisa Cook is currently fighting for her job in a case
[7:21] that reaches the Supreme Court this Wednesday.
[7:24] While the administration claims that she committed mortgage
[7:27] fraud, the courts have so far blocked her removal.
[7:32] By keeping multiple board members in the crosshair
[7:34] simultaneously, one for fraud and another for misleading
[7:38] testimony, the administration is creating an environment where
[7:43] caving to political pressure feels like the only way to
[7:46] survive. The cost overrun pretext is
[7:50] particularly transparent when compared to the administration's
[7:54] own projects. The DOJ is threatening Powell
[7:57] with a criminal indictment over 35% increase in the Fed's decade
[8:02] long headquarters renovation, a project involving the removal of
[8:06] toxic asbestos and lead from 1930s era buildings.
[8:10] Yet at the very same time, the White House's own project to
[8:14] replace the East Wing with a new ballroom has seen it's estimated
[8:18] cost double from 200 million to 400 million in just six months.
[8:25] By bypassing standard oversight to launch a criminal grand jury
[8:29] investigation while ignoring its own runaway costs, the
[8:33] administration has made one thing clear.
[8:36] This isn't about fiscal responsibility.
[8:38] It's a thuggish attempt to not just control Powell, but to send
[8:42] a chilling message to any public official trying to do their job
[8:46] for the benefit of the American people.
[8:49] It demonstrates that the penalty for professional integrity is no
[8:53] longer just a loss of status, it's a full scale assault on
[8:57] your reputation, your savings, and your freedom.
[9:01] The cost of defending against this kind of legal assault is
[9:04] staggering. While Jerome Powell's salary of
[9:07] $246,000 per year puts him well above the average American
[9:12] worker, it's a pittance compared to the cost of a top tier
[9:16] criminal defense. Defending against a Department
[9:20] of Justice grand jury investigation can easily run
[9:23] into the millions of dollars for Powell and Governor Lisa Cook.
[9:28] The reality is that the legal process itself, even without a
[9:32] conviction, can lead to financial ruin.
[9:35] This financial pressure is made worse by what looks like a
[9:39] calculated effort to isolate them.
[9:41] The administration has used a series of executive orders to
[9:45] target major law firms, signalling that representing
[9:49] enemies of the administration could lead to the loss of
[9:53] government contracts or retaliatory investigations.
[9:57] By making it professionally dangerous for top tier attorneys
[10:01] to even take these cases, the White House is essentially
[10:05] dismantling the right to a fair defence.
[10:07] It leaves independent public servants to face the full weight
[10:11] of the state's legal machinery entirely alone.
[10:15] The current crisis didn't emerge in a vacuum.
[10:18] It's been steered by a new guard of officials who view
[10:22] institutional norms as obstacles to be dismantled.
[10:26] Chief among them is Bill Pulte, the director of the Federal
[10:29] Housing Finance Agency. While he carries the name of the
[10:33] legendary home builder William J Pulte, his family's company,
[10:38] Pulte Group, has distanced itself from him.
[10:41] In 2020, Pulte was ousted from the board of Pulte Group after
[10:46] clashing with established directors.
[10:48] He is in many ways an heir to a legacy he has no part in
[10:52] managing. Having spent his adult life as
[10:55] an online oddball and self styled Twitter philanthropist,
[10:59] Bill Pulte's transition to federal prosecutor in chief was
[11:03] fairly seamless, largely because he spent years practicing on his
[11:07] own family. He previously accused his
[11:10] grandfather's widow of insider trading and blasted his own aunt
[11:14] as a fake Christian on a dedicated website.
[11:18] I get the feeling that if you can survive a Thanksgiving
[11:21] dinner with Bill Pulte, ADOJ subpoena probably feels like a
[11:25] polite thank you note. While President Trump recently
[11:29] told NBC News that he knew nothing about the DOJ inquiry
[11:33] into the feds renovations, the announcement came after months
[11:37] of his escalating public attacks on the building project.
[11:41] It's not unlike Henry the Second asking his Knights, will no one
[11:45] rid me of this troublesome priest about the Archbishop of
[11:49] Canterbury? Just as Henry's Knights took
[11:51] this expression as an order to murder Thomas Beckett, Trump's
[11:55] public branding of Powell as a numbskull and a stubborn mule
[12:00] possibly signal to his subordinates that justice
[12:03] against the Fed chair was the unspoken priority of the Oval
[12:07] Office. Bill Pulte first came to my
[12:10] attention not as a policy expert but as a central figure in James
[12:15] Johnny's video The Cult of the Dead Stock, which was about a
[12:19] community of meme stock investors who clung to the hope
[12:22] that the shares they owned in the bankrupt Bed, Bath and
[12:25] Beyond would somehow make them rich.
[12:28] Pulte cultivated this group and turned up at bizarre live
[12:33] streamed Pulte Fest events in airplane hangars, where
[12:36] attendees who paid hundreds of dollars to attend slapped each
[12:41] other on the face with green dildos.
[12:43] This was supposed to be a visual metaphor for the green candles
[12:47] of a rising stock price. It certainly puts a new spin on
[12:51] the phrase market penetration quality.
[12:54] Look at this good thing Polti's Twitter philanthropy involved
[12:59] using Twitter to document stunts like handing cash to strangers
[13:03] in parking lot, giving away free cars, or announcing that he
[13:07] would give $30,000 to a military veteran if President Donald
[13:11] Trump gave him a retweet. Trump did just that, tweeting
[13:16] thank you Bill to his 63,000,000 Twitter followers in 2019.
[13:21] Critics, however, have characterized his online
[13:24] presence as a series of pump and dump schemes ranging from failed
[13:29] business ventures to dubious cryptocurrency promotions.
[13:33] Before taking his current post, Polti reportedly deleted around
[13:37] 25,000 tweets, which some described as an attempt to hide
[13:42] his temperament and past policy positions from public scrutiny.
[13:47] Now the man from the dildo slapping videos is the director
[13:51] of of the typically stayed FHFA, where he reportedly lobbies the
[13:56] president with literal wanted posters of Jerome Powell.
[14:00] His presence is so disruptive that it recently led to a
[14:04] physical confrontation with Treasury Secretary Scott Bescent
[14:08] at a private dinner in September.
[14:11] Bescent reportedly had to be restrained after threatening to
[14:15] punch Pulte in the face for bad mouthing him to the president
[14:19] and overstepping his authority. It's good to know that while the
[14:22] dollar is being debased, the art of 19th century dueling is
[14:26] making a spirited comeback in the cabinet.
[14:29] Green dildos at dawn. Working alongside Pulte is Judge
[14:34] Jeanine Pirro, the US Attorney for DC who is spearheaded the
[14:38] move toward grand jury subpoenas to the American public.
[14:42] Pirro is best known not as a prosecutor but as Judge Jeanine,
[14:47] the host of a long running Fox News show where she was famous
[14:51] for delivering fiery monologues in defense of Donald Trump.
[14:54] Her transition to the nation's most powerful prosecutors office
[14:59] has been described as a federal takeover of DC law enforcement
[15:03] by the president's closest allies.
[15:06] Piro's loyalty has been tested and rewarded repeatedly.
[15:11] She was a vocal proponent of the claims that the 2020 election
[15:14] was rigged, A stance that eventually plays segments of her
[15:18] show at the heart of the $787.5 million defamation settlement
[15:25] with Dominion Voting Systems. Despite being disgraced in that
[15:29] lawsuit, she was still tapped to lead the DC office in 2025.
[15:34] While Pero frames the legal escalation as a simple matter of
[15:39] the Fed ignoring emails, the speed of her office's actions
[15:43] skipping standard inquiries to go straight to a criminal grand
[15:46] jury suggests A coordinated effort.
[15:50] It's an attempt to attack the institutional independence of
[15:53] the Federal Reserve with the threat of a jail cell, moving
[15:57] the conflict from the realm of policy disagreement into the
[16:01] territory of personal survival. With the Fed's leadership under
[16:05] siege, the administration has begun an aggressive end run to
[16:09] bypass the central bank's control over interest rates
[16:12] entirely. In what some are calling
[16:15] Executive QE, the president has ordered Fannie Mae and Freddie
[16:19] Mac to purchase $200 billion in mortgage bonds.
[16:24] The goal of this action is to force mortgage rates down by
[16:27] presidential decree, effectively doing what the Fed has refused
[16:32] to do. This move is paired with a
[16:35] broader playbook aimed at reducing borrowing rates, such
[16:38] as temporarily capping credit card interest rates at 10% up
[16:43] until right after the midterm elections.
[16:46] While economists warn that such a cap could cause banks to stop
[16:50] lending to millions of Americans, the administration is
[16:53] betting that the immediate optics of lower rates will
[16:57] outweigh the longer term risk of a credit crunch.
[17:01] By seizing control of these levers, the White House is
[17:04] attempting to shift rate setting authority from the independent
[17:08] Fed directly to the Oval Office. The administration's ideas
[17:13] around getting rates lower relies on a form of magical
[17:17] thinking, the belief that the president can simply decree
[17:21] lower interest rates to fund a ballooning $38.6 trillion
[17:26] national debt. This approach treats interest
[17:29] rates like a retail price tag that can be marked down at will,
[17:34] rather than the reflection of what investors actually demand
[17:37] in exchange for their savings. The president is focusing on the
[17:41] Fed funds rate, the rate that the Federal Reserve sets, which
[17:45] is an overnight interest rate. But the rates that matter the
[17:49] most for the US budget and for American mortgages are much
[17:53] longer term and are set by the global bond market.
[17:57] This is where the Trump conundrum takes hold.
[18:00] If the Fed is seen as a political puppet, investors
[18:03] might begin to fear that the dollar is being debased.
[18:07] To protect themselves, they then demand a risk premium, pushing
[18:11] long term rates even higher even as the Fed tries to push short
[18:16] term rates lower. To hide this disconnect,
[18:20] Treasury Secretary Scott Percent has engaged in a high stakes
[18:24] gamble which has been referred to as activist Treasury
[18:27] issuance. Despite once criticizing Janet
[18:31] Yellen for the same tactic, Besant has flooded the market
[18:35] with short term T-bills while restricting the supply of 10
[18:39] year bonds. By keeping 10 year bonds scarce,
[18:42] the Treasuries artificially propping up their price and
[18:46] keeping their yields lower than they would be in a truly free
[18:49] market. This is basically a big bet that
[18:53] interest rates will fall lower than they are today, allowing
[18:57] the treasury to roll this mountain of short term debt into
[19:00] hopefully cheaper long term loans later.
[19:04] If this doesn't work and rates go higher, the losses will start
[19:08] to mount quickly. Some large scale investors are
[19:12] already pushing back. PIMCO, which manages $2.2
[19:16] trillion, has said that they've begun a multi year period of
[19:20] diversification away from US assets, citing the
[19:24] unpredictability of the administration's governance.
[19:28] If this capital flight starts to gain momentum, no amount of
[19:32] Treasury gymnastics will be able to keep rates low.
[19:36] The US could soon find itself in a stagflationary trap where low
[19:40] interest rates, a weak dollar, and tariffs cause inflation and
[19:45] the government is forced to fund its massive deficits at
[19:48] punishingly high interest rates because it traded institutional
[19:52] credibility for a temporary political win.
[19:56] While the administration attempts to use these
[19:59] administrative levers to bypass the Federal Reserve, the battle
[20:03] for control has now moved to the floor of the United States
[20:06] Senate. The White House's strategy to
[20:09] replace Jerome Powell with a more obedient chair has hit a
[20:13] significant political roadblock, turning the selection of the
[20:17] next Fed leader into a high stakes strategic standoff.
[20:21] The plan to install a loyalist has been thrown into doubt by
[20:25] Senator Tom Tillis. Immediately after Powell's
[20:28] hostage video was released, Tillis vowed to block the
[20:32] confirmation of any Federal Reserve nominee until the DOJ's
[20:37] criminal investigation into Powell is fully resolved.
[20:41] Because the Senate Banking Committee is narrowly divided,
[20:45] Tillis's opposition is enough to deadlock the panel.
[20:49] Tillis, who is retiring at the end of the year, has framed his
[20:52] stand as a defence of the Fed's paramount independence against
[20:57] what he called an attempt at coercion by the White House.
[21:01] This blockade creates a peculiar problem for the administration's
[21:05] most prominent internal voice on the board, Stephen Moran.
[21:10] Moran was only confirmed to fill a temporary seat that expires on
[21:14] January 31st, 2026. Since joining the board last
[21:18] September, Moran, a Trump loyalist, has been a vocal
[21:23] advocate for jumbo rate cuts, voting for A50 basis point
[21:27] reduction in three consecutive meetings.
[21:30] He famously confirmed that he was the ultra dove in the Fed's
[21:34] dot plot, projecting that rates should fall a full percentage
[21:38] point below the median of his colleagues.
[21:41] Under the Tillis blockade, Moran cannot be confirmed for a
[21:45] permanent 14 year term. While federal law allows him to
[21:49] remain in his seat as a holdover after January 31st.
[21:53] He remains in a state of administrative limbo, unable to
[21:57] be promoted and unable to be replaced.
[22:00] By attempting to use a criminal investigation to clear the path
[22:04] for a new chair, the administration may have
[22:07] inadvertently ensured that no new chair can be seated at all,
[22:12] leaving the FOMC to potentially elect its own interim leadership
[22:16] in May. The true cost of the war on the
[22:20] Fed is the erosion of what the former Dutch central banker
[22:23] Klaus Knott calls leading by example.
[22:27] For nearly a century, the US has been the leader of the free
[22:31] world precisely because it's institutions like the Federal
[22:35] Reserve were seen as independent and objective.
[22:39] By turning the Fed into a battlefield, the administration
[22:42] is sending an alarming message to the world about the
[22:46] resilience of the American rule of law.
[22:48] The parallels are sobering. The Financial Times notes that
[22:53] while President Erdogan of Turkey famously sacked his
[22:56] central banker in 2019, triggering A plummeting lira and
[23:01] a surge in inflation, not even his administration suggested
[23:05] that the country's top banker was a criminal.
[23:08] By weaponizing the Department of Justice, the US has moved past
[23:13] the Turkey model into uncharted territory, particularly in the
[23:18] developed world. Harvard professor Geeta Gopinath
[23:22] warns that the insidious long term effect of this siege will
[23:26] be to silence dissent within the Fed, leaving future governors
[23:30] terrified that they too could be the subject of a criminal
[23:35] investigation. For setting interest rates based
[23:38] on evidence rather than political preference, The
[23:41] Economist provides an important historical anchor.
[23:45] They argue that America has coped with worse things than
[23:48] Donald Trump. From the Alien and Sedition Acts
[23:52] of 1798 to the repression of the Wilson era and the partisan
[23:56] bending of law enforcement during Watergate, the Republic
[24:00] has faced presidents who treated critics as enemies of the state.
[24:05] In each of those crises, decency and institutional norms
[24:09] ultimately survived because Americans chose to defend them.
[24:14] The current standoff with Senator Tillis suggests that the
[24:18] system's guardrails are holding, even if they're under immense
[24:22] strain. One argument against the need
[24:26] for independent central banks in democracies is that nothing
[24:30] upsets voters more than inflation.
[24:32] So even without an independent central bank, politicians hoping
[24:36] to be re elected will want to run a sensible monetary policy
[24:41] to keep inflation under control. The movement towards independent
[24:46] central banks around the world has been on an upward trajectory
[24:50] since the 1950s in high, middle and low income countries alike.
[24:55] This has gone well because as independence rose, inflation
[25:00] fell. In recent years, especially in
[25:03] the wake of the pandemic, rich countries have become not just
[25:07] heavily indebted, but really comfortable with spending more
[25:11] than they bring in in taxes. Which means that now that rates
[25:15] are higher, the effect of monetary policy on government
[25:18] budgets has become enormous. Populists on both the left and
[25:23] right, like both the Greens and Reform in the UK, are pushing
[25:27] policies that they think would improve the budget, like taking
[25:32] control of the central bank and implementing policies like no
[25:36] longer paying interest on bank reserves.
[25:39] These political parties are good at stirring up voters, but a
[25:42] move towards political control of central banks would be a real
[25:47] step backwards. Hopefully we won't have to learn
[25:50] this the hard way. Thanks once again for tuning
[25:53] into the podcast. If you'd like to hear more from
[25:56] me, I'll leave a link in the show notes to an interview I did
[25:59] earlier this week on the Hidden Forces podcast.
[26:02] Have a great week and talk to you again soon.
[26:05] Bye.

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