# Complicated w/ Kellie Overbey

An episode of [That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1540370040), 20 Oct 2026, 1 h 31 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/cf7e6913-a01e-4666-a095-b24c0047c637/1920fc40-b4c5-4029-b31c-b4e800efe4e6/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=c3a2c876-20bf-449b-8d54-b24c0047c64d

This week, Kara and Liza break down the SVU episode, “Complicated” (Season 19, Episode 5), discuss the confounding death of Kacie Aleece Peterson, and interview the wonderful actor and coffee shop friend of Liza, Kellie Overbey. SOURCES: CBS News 1 CBS News 2 6ABC New York Post CNN Kitsap Sun Echovita WHAT WOULD SISTER PEG DO: A is For Next week’s episode will be “The Long Arm of the Witness” (Season 22, Episode 6). Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3yb7hqu See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Of the Law & Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
[0:04] Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
[0:07] Speaker 2: vicious felonies these episodes are based on.
[0:09] Speaker 3: These are our stories. Dun dun!
[0:11] Speaker 1: Dun dun!
[0:28] Speaker 2: Yay, that's messed up an SVU podcast. I'm Lisa Traeger.
[0:32] Speaker 2: And I'm Cara Clank.
[0:34] Speaker 1: It's SVU recaps, true crime deep dives, interviews with fascinating,
[0:40] Speaker 1: fun people, and just chatting up top. You know what
[0:44] Speaker 1: I realized we have not spoken about, even though I'm
[0:46] Speaker 1: sorry we're in the time machine as always, everybody. So
[0:48] Speaker 1: this is a little bit old news, but have you
[0:51] Speaker 1: been following the woman that survived two lethal injections?
[0:55] Speaker 3: Someone brought it up to me. I can't. Well, it's
[1:00] Speaker 3: sick because now they're trying to revive her. I just, what? Yeah,
[1:05] Speaker 3: tell me. I don't even know how to feel. Okay.
[1:07] Speaker 3: So she survived two lethal injections. She went to the hospital.
[1:10] Speaker 1: She was unconscious, like on machines or whatever for a
[1:13] Speaker 1: few days. She woke up yesterday as of this recording,
[1:17] Speaker 1: obviously now it's like weeks later, but She woke up
[1:21] Speaker 1: and I was like, I was saying this on a
[1:24] Speaker 1: different podcast, but I was like, oh my gosh, like
[1:26] Speaker 1: I think you survive two attempts. You get to go, right?
[1:29] Speaker 1: Like you get to walk free. Like she's already been
[1:31] Speaker 1: in jail for 30 years for her murder. But then
[1:34] Speaker 1: I like looked up the murder. It's very mean coded.
[1:37] Speaker 1: Like I thought maybe for a second it was the
[1:39] Speaker 1: murder from mean because it's basically like girls that.
[1:43] Speaker 3: Brought another girl out into the woods and then murdered her.
[1:46] Speaker 1: And she took like some massive piece of like concrete
[1:50] Speaker 1: or rock or something and like kind of like smashed
[1:52] Speaker 1: this girl with it. And then she kept a piece
[1:55] Speaker 1: of the skull as a souvenir. She was 18. So
[1:59] Speaker 1: like when I first read it, I was like, okay,
[2:01] Speaker 1: she served 30 years for a crime she committed when
[2:03] Speaker 1: she was basically like a child and her brain wasn't
[2:06] Speaker 1: fully formed. Like, but then when I heard about the
[2:08] Speaker 1: skull souvenir, I was like, I don't know, maybe we
[2:10] Speaker 1: got to keep her behind bars.
[2:12] Speaker 2: But then just keep her behind bars. Like what, like
[2:14] Speaker 2: what is, did you use an old formula? Like what
[2:16] Speaker 2: is this?
[2:17] Speaker 4: I know.
[2:18] Speaker 1: And she's, and she was, she was, she's been on
[2:20] Speaker 1: death row since 95. So it's like, we've already had
[2:22] Speaker 1: her in jail for in prison for like 30 years,
[2:26] Speaker 1: you know? And now she's awake and she's talking. And
[2:32] Speaker 1: I just think it's so wild.
[2:33] Speaker 3: She's talking?
[2:35] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[2:35] Speaker 3: She's awake and like conscious and talking. And yeah. I
[2:39] Speaker 3: don't know.
[2:41] Speaker 2: Like what are the death row, like what are people
[2:42] Speaker 2: even saying? Like everyone's just kind of like, like no
[2:45] Speaker 2: one really knows how to talk about it.
[2:48] Speaker 3: Or they do and I'm just not listening. I am,
[2:53] Speaker 3: you know, like how are you not like, oh, this
[2:55] Speaker 3: something is up. Like, this shouldn't happen. If you're going
[2:58] Speaker 3: to be... Like, if the state's going to be murdering people,
[3:01] Speaker 3: why don't you get it together?
[3:02] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[3:03] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Upsetting. Well, that's an upsetting start to
[3:09] Speaker 3: the episode.
[3:09] Speaker 1: I know. I'm sorry to upset the start to the episode.
[3:12] Speaker 3: Also... Midterm elections are coming up, everybody.
[3:15] Speaker 1: Don't forget to get your freaking ballots or whatever you
[3:18] Speaker 1: need to do to vote.
[3:19] Speaker 3: I'll post on my personal.
[3:21] Speaker 1: A lot of Tommies will message me about LA races.
[3:25] Speaker 1: I will post the progressive voter guides that I'm using
[3:28] Speaker 1: as my guidelines. But I'm sort of excited for this
[3:34] Speaker 1: blue wave. Get out there, everybody.
[3:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm nervous.
[3:39] Speaker 2: I'm going home this next week or whatever. So I'll
[3:41] Speaker 2: do my mail-in.
[3:44] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
[3:45] Speaker 2: Get my mail in, go in. My mom showed me
[3:47] Speaker 2: a photo of the mail that came.
[3:51] Speaker 3: Oh, yes.
[3:51] Speaker 1: I just got mine yesterday. So the ballots are on
[3:54] Speaker 1: their way. I don't know.
[3:56] Speaker 3: I'm scared. I'm scared of everything. No, I'm feeling pretty good.
[4:00] Speaker 3: I wonder. I don't know. Great. Will people do it?
[4:04] Speaker 1: You're feeling pretty good, like confident about what's going to happen?
[4:07] Speaker 1: Or just in your life, you're feeling good?
[4:08] Speaker 3: No, I think people are going to vote.
[4:10] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[4:11] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[4:12] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[4:12] Speaker 3: I think people will vote.
[4:14] Speaker 1: I think every time people are paying like $ 100 to
[4:17] Speaker 1: fill their gas tank, they're going to.
[4:19] Speaker 2: It's always about the gas tank, isn't it? It's just,
[4:24] Speaker 2: I didn't, it's just we're in a war that didn't
[4:26] Speaker 2: need to happen.
[4:27] Speaker 1: And like, and now everyone's paying so much fucking money
[4:30] Speaker 1: for gas.
[4:31] Speaker 3: And there's no end in sight.
[4:33] Speaker 1: And I just really hope people don't get suckered by this.
[4:37] Speaker 1: I'm going to give you all $ 5, 000 thing, which is
[4:39] Speaker 1: like a full lie.
[4:41] Speaker 2: But also that's not like, what is $ 5, 000 going to
[4:44] Speaker 2: do when everything's so expensive?
[4:45] Speaker 3: Like it's just not long-term thinking.
[4:48] Speaker 2: Right.
[4:48] Speaker 1: But there's a lot of people that are like, I
[4:50] Speaker 1: don't know, $ 5, 000 could like really save me right now.
[4:53] Speaker 1: And I just hope they're not duped because you're not
[4:56] Speaker 1: getting it. Like he does not have the money to
[4:58] Speaker 1: give $ 5, 000 to every American adult.
[5:00] Speaker 3: That's, would cost over a trillion dollars.
[5:02] Speaker 2: I mean, if you're still listening to this man, maybe
[5:05] Speaker 2: you need two lethal injections. Like, that's what I, like,
[5:08] Speaker 2: I don't, you're obviously void of any sort of anything. Like,
[5:12] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, like, I just, you're obvious, where are you?
[5:17] Speaker 3: What, what is up? You're brainwashed.
[5:19] Speaker 2: You're still listening to this guy and trust him in
[5:22] Speaker 2: any capacity and think he's thinking about you.
[5:24] Speaker 3: Like, I just don't get it.
[5:25] Speaker 2: He just said he wants to explode San Diego and LA.
[5:28] Speaker 2: I know.
[5:30] Speaker 1: And it's nobody that's listening to this podcast really, so
[5:32] Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm screaming into the void. But, oh, wait,
[5:36] Speaker 1: I just saw on, I just got like a notification
[5:40] Speaker 1: that Whitney Rose is filing divorce from her husband on
[5:43] Speaker 1: Salt Lake.
[5:44] Speaker 3: Yeah. Whitney and Justin. Well, duh. I mean, it's like
[5:47] Speaker 3: a tale as old as time.
[5:49] Speaker 2: You get a girl with daddy issues who's like so
[5:52] Speaker 2: hot and sexy. And then an old man going, yay,
[5:56] Speaker 2: look at my hot new wife. And then she has
[5:58] Speaker 2: kids and realizes you're a fucking bum. And like that
[6:02] Speaker 2: she's a real person and has needs.
[6:04] Speaker 1: And then she ropes you into an MLM and sale
[6:07] Speaker 1: as old as time.
[6:08] Speaker 2: And then you start, you know, like painting chocolate sauce
[6:12] Speaker 2: on each other's body on television and you lose your
[6:15] Speaker 2: job and then you're not attractive anymore because you're not
[6:17] Speaker 2: bringing in money. She's now the breadwinner, probably raising the kids.
[6:21] Speaker 2: And then you still want her to fuck like she's
[6:23] Speaker 2: still in her 20s and she doesn't want to and
[6:26] Speaker 2: is like, hey, babe.
[6:27] Speaker 3: And yeah, it's over.
[6:29] Speaker 1: Yeah, he just got her. I feel like she can't
[6:31] Speaker 1: get over that he tanked her business too. Like he
[6:34] Speaker 1: tanked her business with this MLM idea that he did.
[6:36] Speaker 1: And like, she's not, not happy.
[6:40] Speaker 3: So there we go. And there we go. And there
[6:44] Speaker 3: we go.
[6:44] Speaker 1: Another Bravo marriage down the drain. Oh, that's what I
[6:47] Speaker 1: need to be watching is freaking Salt Lake. I forgot
[6:49] Speaker 1: it's on. I hate, I'm so pissed I got rid
[6:52] Speaker 1: of my DVR. Like, honestly, what a mistake, but I'm
[6:54] Speaker 1: not getting it reinstalled now. But like, I, It's caused
[6:57] Speaker 1: me to be behind on literally every single thing.
[7:00] Speaker 3: It was so important to you. It was the DVR.
[7:03] Speaker 1: I just, I cannot remember what I haven't watched and
[7:06] Speaker 1: what I need to catch up on.
[7:07] Speaker 3: No, I meant the DVR was very important to you. Yes,
[7:09] Speaker 3: it was. It was.
[7:11] Speaker 2: You talked about it all the time. It's really shocking
[7:13] Speaker 2: how quickly you just severed.
[7:16] Speaker 3: We could, we should, there should be another....
[7:20] Speaker 1: Thing like on my Apple TV that tells me across
[7:24] Speaker 1: all of the streaming services like what I where I
[7:27] Speaker 1: am like what I need to be catching up on
[7:30] Speaker 1: you know why isn't somebody inventing that app everyone's out
[7:33] Speaker 1: there making ridiculous I saw the most ridiculous AI video
[7:38] Speaker 1: because they tagged Dorinda and Luann and Ramona in it
[7:42] Speaker 1: and it's like them doing Survivor and like Dorinda doesn't
[7:46] Speaker 1: look at all like her actual face like it's But
[7:50] Speaker 1: the crazy thing is even AI Luann kind of looks
[7:52] Speaker 1: like Luann. So that's where I was like, is this AI?
[7:55] Speaker 1: But then I figured it absolutely is like the most
[7:57] Speaker 1: AI thing I've ever seen. But people are out there
[7:59] Speaker 1: making crap. They're not making apps that we need like
[8:04] Speaker 1: DVR for your streaming services. Also, did you see the
[8:07] Speaker 1: thing about the comedian speaking of AI who like is
[8:10] Speaker 1: wearing like a peach colored shirt and like someone just
[8:13] Speaker 1: took his joke and made it coming out of a girl's,
[8:16] Speaker 1: like a cute girl's body? but in AI, but she's
[8:21] Speaker 1: wearing like the same shirt as him, like the same
[8:23] Speaker 1: color shirt. Like, so it's like, they just made, instead
[8:27] Speaker 1: of it being like a chubby white guy, it's just
[8:28] Speaker 1: like a hot girl in, like in a cute top,
[8:32] Speaker 1: but she looks just like him side by side and
[8:34] Speaker 1: he's doing her, his exact, she's doing his exact joke.
[8:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I've seen these AI comedians. I mean, I don't,
[8:41] Speaker 2: I don't, don't get me started. I guess that's what
[8:44] Speaker 2: I'm saying. No, I don't get me started.
[8:47] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[8:51] Speaker 2: I have to buy jeans. Like, I don't know what
[8:54] Speaker 2: shape to buy. 90s relaxed? Is that what I want?
[9:00] Speaker 2: Or do I want a wide leg? I feel like
[9:03] Speaker 2: I want a wide leg jean, but I am so short,
[9:06] Speaker 2: you know? Yeah, I just bought a few pairs and
[9:09] Speaker 2: they were wide. They were like more wide leg, like wide,
[9:12] Speaker 2: but not massive, not like Jenko style wide leg, you know,
[9:16] Speaker 2: wider leg, straight.
[9:19] Speaker 1: I always get jeans at Madewell. I like the way
[9:21] Speaker 1: they fit, but I also like Levi's. Levi's has good—
[9:24] Speaker 1: I'm going to Abercrombie.
[9:25] Speaker 3: High-waisted.
[9:26] Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
[9:27] Speaker 3: I haven't been to Abercrombie.
[9:28] Speaker 2: Sorry about my shorts this summer. In a little minute. High-rise, 90s, relaxed. Like,
[9:34] Speaker 2: is that what I want?
[9:35] Speaker 1: I have high— That's what I basically buy.
[9:37] Speaker 3: I love a high-rise.
[9:38] Speaker 4: You buy relaxed.
[9:40] Speaker 3: And mine are pretty relaxed.
[9:41] Speaker 2: But then, or a straight. There's a 90s straight or
[9:45] Speaker 2: a 90s relaxed. They look the same to me.
[9:47] Speaker 3: I don't know.
[9:49] Speaker 1: That's the thing is I think that the relaxed might
[9:51] Speaker 1: just be like the denim is softer.
[9:53] Speaker 3: You know what? It might not be like as structured
[9:55] Speaker 3: of a denim. Okay. I think I need that. I
[9:59] Speaker 3: need that. That's my guess, you know?
[10:02] Speaker 2: I'm scared to buy online. I probably shouldn't, right? I
[10:07] Speaker 2: should go to the store. I'll go to the store.
[10:10] Speaker 1: Yeah, I would try on. Like I wouldn't, I don't
[10:12] Speaker 1: buy denim online.
[10:14] Speaker 3: I can't. I've got to try it on.
[10:17] Speaker 1: Are you going to go see this Digger movie that
[10:19] Speaker 1: everyone's talking about? I'm against Tom Cruise, but everyone's saying
[10:24] Speaker 1: this is like so good.
[10:25] Speaker 2: I thought you meant the Wicker one and I go, well,
[10:27] Speaker 2: of course, but no, I'm not saying Digger.
[10:29] Speaker 3: No, I'm saying primetime.
[10:32] Speaker 1: I can't wait to see primetime. Like I'm going to
[10:34] Speaker 1: see primetime. My friend already saw it two times. I
[10:36] Speaker 1: was like, and she said it's so good.
[10:38] Speaker 3: I got to watch it.
[10:40] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[10:41] Speaker 3: Well, she went once by herself and then her husband
[10:43] Speaker 3: wanted to go. So she went with him. Yeah, I'm excited.
[10:47] Speaker 3: I'm excited. I'm really pumped to see that. It's interesting.
[10:52] Speaker 1: We talked about this when we covered Chris Hansen. He
[10:57] Speaker 1: was doing a good service, but by doing it as
[11:02] Speaker 1: a vigilante, he kind of made some mistakes, and that's
[11:06] Speaker 1: why he, like, got kicked off the air.
[11:08] Speaker 2: Well, wasn't it because he found someone in Congress so
[11:11] Speaker 2: they had to end the show?
[11:12] Speaker 1: Yes, but also he would get people that, like, would
[11:17] Speaker 1: kill themselves immediately on the spot or directly after.
[11:20] Speaker 3: That was, like, what happened on one of the episodes,
[11:24] Speaker 3: you know. I mean, if you're a pedophile.
[11:26] Speaker 1: If you're showing up to an apartment with lube and.
[11:31] Speaker 3: Mike's hard, then you gotta go. Yeah, jump off a roof.
[11:35] Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't think that's that bad.
[11:38] Speaker 2: In terms of everything that can go wrong in Vigilante vibes,
[11:41] Speaker 2: I think a pedophile getting out of here is okay. Yeah.
[11:45] Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know.
[11:45] Speaker 2: I feel like there's... I don't believe in the death penalty,
[11:48] Speaker 2: but I think you could give yourself one for being
[11:50] Speaker 2: a pedophile.
[11:51] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[11:52] Speaker 3: People have just mixed feelings about Chris Hansen.
[11:55] Speaker 1: I feel.
[11:55] Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually don't know what I'm talking about. Let
[11:56] Speaker 3: me see this movie.
[11:59] Speaker 2: I wake up one morning at 7.45 and I'm like
[12:02] Speaker 2: fucking delirious.
[12:03] Speaker 3: I don't know how to... I don't know how to act.
[12:06] Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
[12:07] Speaker 3: Yeah, actually, you're ahead of me, so you've been awake
[12:09] Speaker 3: for a long time.
[12:10] Speaker 1: Okay, let's get started. As always, thatsmustuplive.com has links to
[12:16] Speaker 1: our two live shows in DC and Brooklyn. In January,
[12:20] Speaker 1: it has links to Lisa's road dates, to our merch,
[12:23] Speaker 1: to our promo codes. Just bookmark that bad boy, thatsmustuplive.com.
[12:28] Speaker 1: And also join us over on our Patreon, patreon.com slash thatsmustup.
[12:33] Speaker 1: It's just extra us talking. We have like really fun
[12:36] Speaker 1: interviews on there with people. We talk to people about SVU.
[12:39] Speaker 1: We talk to people about their lives and careers, upcoming projects,
[12:43] Speaker 1: fun convos. And then we also, we have a Halloween
[12:46] Speaker 1: one coming up where we're talking a couple of famous,
[12:50] Speaker 1: like spooky movies, kind of Halloween-ish movies. So yeah, get
[12:55] Speaker 1: on over to the That's Messed Up Patreon. All right,
[12:59] Speaker 1: let's kick this off. All right.
[13:05] Speaker 3: Today we are.
[13:06] Speaker 1: Doing Complicated, season 19, episode 5. This episode is from
[13:12] Speaker 1: almost spooky season, the year of our Lord, 2017. The
[13:16] Speaker 1: episode opens with Benson on the phone with Noah being like,
[13:20] Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're feeling better, sweetie, and help yourself
[13:23] Speaker 1: to an unlimited applesauce buffet. He's like asking for applesauce.
[13:27] Speaker 1: So I think that sets a tone that that's the
[13:30] Speaker 1: kind of house that they're in, that applesauce is a treat.
[13:32] Speaker 1: He's obviously with Lucy. And behind Benson is lurking Mr.
[13:36] Speaker 1: Mariska Hargitay and personal laundry detergent spokesman Peter Herman, a.k.a.
[13:41] Speaker 3: Trevor Langan. And he's like, what's up? And she's like, no,
[13:45] Speaker 3: Noah has a cold. She's stressed, right?
[13:46] Speaker 1: This is some kind of hearing about her adoption of Noah.
[13:50] Speaker 1: And she's like, promise me I'm not going to lose
[13:52] Speaker 1: my son. Because I had to go look it up.
[13:53] Speaker 1: I was like, why is she so worried? This adoption
[13:55] Speaker 1: closed like in season, 15 or 16, and it's season 19.
[13:59] Speaker 3: But then Langan goes, I prom, and.
[14:01] Speaker 1: Before you can even say promise, icy cold Grandma Sheila
[14:05] Speaker 1: goes breezing to the courtroom doors, delivering a curt Lieutenant
[14:09] Speaker 1: Benson before she enters the courtroom. And Benson's cortisol is spiking.
[14:14] Speaker 1: You can just tell she's freaking out. In family court,
[14:17] Speaker 1: it's clear that it's not just a formality. Grandma Sheila
[14:20] Speaker 1: is absolutely trying to vacate the adoption on the grounds
[14:24] Speaker 1: that she was never notified of But the judge is like,
[14:27] Speaker 1: they did look for relatives for a year. And then
[14:31] Speaker 1: Benson adds, and Ellie told me you were dead. What
[14:35] Speaker 1: I would love to know is like, what? Like Sheila
[14:40] Speaker 1: says she spent years searching for Ellie. She hired private investigators.
[14:44] Speaker 1: She was too late. And she goes, thank God I
[14:47] Speaker 1: found Noah. I want to make amends and be there
[14:49] Speaker 1: for Noah in a way that I was never there
[14:51] Speaker 1: for Ellie. And Benson's like, he's my child. He's not
[14:55] Speaker 1: a way for you to alleviate your guilt. But like,
[14:58] Speaker 1: just going back to the, we searched for you for
[15:00] Speaker 1: a year, like.
[15:01] Speaker 3: Her name, her last name. Yeah, I guess a bad PI.
[15:06] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[15:06] Speaker 1: Like, it's not like, I could have seen Ellie Porter
[15:09] Speaker 1: changing her name, right? Like if she ran away and
[15:11] Speaker 1: like fully changed her name, it would be hard to
[15:13] Speaker 1: find her under like a record, right? Like if all
[15:17] Speaker 1: of her record was like under like an alias that
[15:21] Speaker 1: Johnny D helped her get or something like that, then
[15:23] Speaker 1: that would be one thing. But she's literally Ellie Porter
[15:26] Speaker 1: and she's in the biggest city in the world that
[15:28] Speaker 1: has a extensive criminal record against this girl.
[15:30] Speaker 3: I just don't understand.
[15:31] Speaker 1: Did your PI couldn't find your daughter? And then the
[15:36] Speaker 1: New York courts couldn't find the parents of Ellie Porter?
[15:38] Speaker 1: Like that doesn't, you find out where she's from, what state,
[15:42] Speaker 1: and you look up her birth certificate. Like this doesn't seem,
[15:45] Speaker 1: maybe somebody that's a more law inclined can tell me
[15:48] Speaker 1: because I know a lot of our listeners are in
[15:50] Speaker 1: the law.
[15:51] Speaker 2: It just seems to me- And I don't know what
[15:55] Speaker 2: to tell you. I mean, she goes into it, but
[15:57] Speaker 2: it's like her husband's like, no, that's that. And then they, like,
[15:59] Speaker 2: ditch their kid. Like, go fuck yourself.
[16:01] Speaker 1: It just seems like still the state of New York
[16:03] Speaker 1: would have been able to contact the mother. Like, and
[16:05] Speaker 1: we wouldn't have put Benson through this, like, painful, like,
[16:09] Speaker 1: possibility of, like, losing her kid or whatever.
[16:11] Speaker 3: And it took you this long? Yeah. He was a baby. Yeah.
[16:15] Speaker 2: I mean, I hate this bitch. And, like, eventually you'll
[16:17] Speaker 2: get to this part, but, like, Benson goes... Like, should
[16:20] Speaker 2: I trust my instincts or not? And I don't know
[16:22] Speaker 2: if you're listening and you watch the show a lot,
[16:24] Speaker 2: but she should have listened to her instincts.
[16:26] Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. Spoiler.
[16:28] Speaker 1: But Benson actually cares about the kid first, so whatever.
[16:34] Speaker 1: I obviously understand they wanted to create a character that
[16:36] Speaker 1: could be recurring for Brooke Shields, and this was perfect.
[16:39] Speaker 1: But it's just interesting to me that, like, I don't know.
[16:43] Speaker 1: It just seems like you would have found her. It's
[16:45] Speaker 1: not like she was living under a bunch of aliases
[16:47] Speaker 1: or whatever. Or she's, like, from another country where it
[16:49] Speaker 1: would be harder to, like, search through record databases or whatever. Anyway,
[16:54] Speaker 1: the judge wants to hear Sheila out. Like, the judge
[16:57] Speaker 1: is like, whoa, Benson, chill out. And she's like, I
[16:59] Speaker 1: don't even know this lady. And she wants to, like,
[17:01] Speaker 1: take my kid. And the judge is like, let me— But.
[17:03] Speaker 2: Also, this is the judge that did the adoption and
[17:05] Speaker 2: kind of pushed Noah onto Benson, too.
[17:08] Speaker 1: This is the judge who— this is Jane Hudeshell is the
[17:11] Speaker 1: actress's name, who I have seen perform live in a play,
[17:14] Speaker 1: and she's amazing. And she's this recurring judge who we
[17:17] Speaker 1: all know helped— Wait, she's in Only Murders too, right?
[17:21] Speaker 3: I think she is. And she was the person.
[17:25] Speaker 1: The catalyst. She was like, Ms. Benson, ever thought about
[17:28] Speaker 1: being a mom? Like, you know, she was the one
[17:30] Speaker 1: that made this happen. So it is kind of funny
[17:32] Speaker 1: now that she's like, let me hear her out. And
[17:34] Speaker 1: Sheila keeps saying, I don't want to rip Noah away
[17:37] Speaker 1: from the only home he's ever known, but, which is
[17:40] Speaker 1: a big ass but, she has some doubt about Benson's
[17:42] Speaker 1: fitness as a parent.
[17:43] Speaker 3: And it's like, are you for real?
[17:45] Speaker 1: But also do not talk to Lucy about her schedule
[17:48] Speaker 1: or get her timesheets because I think she's there a lot.
[17:51] Speaker 1: And Sheila's like, my PI discovered Noah because of a
[17:55] Speaker 1: CPS investigation. And Benson goes nuts and is like, that
[17:59] Speaker 1: investigation is closed. And of course, she's talking about the
[18:01] Speaker 1: infamous saving Noah from being hit by a cab incident
[18:04] Speaker 1: where he was being a little shit.
[18:06] Speaker 3: And she had to grab his arm.
[18:08] Speaker 1: And this overzealous CPS agent started open to case over it,
[18:12] Speaker 1: over him having bruises on his arm. And Sheila doesn't
[18:15] Speaker 1: even care. If she can't overturn the adoption, she just
[18:19] Speaker 1: wants to be part of his life, which I don't
[18:20] Speaker 1: buy either. She keeps being like, I don't even care.
[18:22] Speaker 1: I don't want to adopt him, but I just want
[18:24] Speaker 1: to adopt him because I think she's a bad parent. Like,
[18:26] Speaker 1: she's just really throwing a lot of different things out there.
[18:28] Speaker 1: And then she goes, I just want to be part
[18:31] Speaker 1: of his life. And then she goes, for his sake.
[18:33] Speaker 1: And it's like, bitch, you better chill the fuck out.
[18:36] Speaker 1: Benson's going to kill you. So now we cut to
[18:39] Speaker 1: the main action of the episode. A teen girl running
[18:42] Speaker 1: through Central Park frantic. She runs up to a cop.
[18:44] Speaker 1: She's yelling, help me. He's after me. And her hair
[18:47] Speaker 1: is extremely dirty. And she's wearing like a flannel. And
[18:51] Speaker 1: we cut to Carisi and Rollins at the hospital. And
[18:54] Speaker 1: the doctor's telling them, this girl has no ID, no possessions.
[18:57] Speaker 1: And she seems to be between 15 and 20 years old.
[19:00] Speaker 1: And they're like, She doesn't know how old she is.
[19:02] Speaker 1: And he's like, no, she doesn't know her name or
[19:05] Speaker 1: where she lives or how she got there. So nobody
[19:08] Speaker 1: knows what they're dealing with here. But she did tell
[19:11] Speaker 1: the doctor that she was forced to have sex. She
[19:13] Speaker 1: has cigarette burn marks on her body, like maybe even
[19:17] Speaker 1: drain cleaner, like clear signs of abuse. And he can't
[19:20] Speaker 1: test her for drugs because she will not let anyone
[19:23] Speaker 1: touch her. So they go into her little curtain hospital area.
[19:27] Speaker 1: I don't know why Carisi's there. Like the girl is
[19:29] Speaker 1: extremely traumatized. She keeps saying, don't touch me, while Carisi
[19:33] Speaker 1: is creeping closer and.
[19:34] Speaker 3: Closer to her.
[19:35] Speaker 1: And I just feel like it feels like a ladies-only
[19:37] Speaker 1: situation here. Like, we just send in Amanda, you know? Like,
[19:40] Speaker 1: we don't need Carisi there after this woman just got
[19:43] Speaker 1: done from being possibly held. Like, we don't know where
[19:45] Speaker 1: she's been. And then we go into the credits. Benson
[19:49] Speaker 1: shows up at the precinct. apologizing to Finn. Noah's still sick.
[19:52] Speaker 1: And then Finn updates Benson about this girl, but says
[19:55] Speaker 1: that Bellevue released her because the shrink said she wasn't
[19:58] Speaker 1: a danger to herself or others. So they go observe,
[20:01] Speaker 1: but she's there. She's at the precinct and Rollins is
[20:03] Speaker 1: questioning her. So they go to like the fishbowl and
[20:05] Speaker 1: they're observing. And they're like, well, do you know how
[20:08] Speaker 1: you got to Central Park? And she's like, well, you
[20:10] Speaker 1: drove in a white van. Steve was driving. And who's Steve?
[20:14] Speaker 1: He's the man who made me live with him. And
[20:17] Speaker 1: she's lived with him as long as she can remember.
[20:18] Speaker 1: And Steve made me have sex with him. And her
[20:21] Speaker 1: real dad, she said, was nice. He called her little M.
[20:25] Speaker 1: She says, I was a good girl. I didn't cry.
[20:27] Speaker 1: And Carisi's starting to like kind of feed her info.
[20:30] Speaker 1: He's kind of like, wait, was it your first day
[20:33] Speaker 1: of school? And she's like, maybe I had a new dress.
[20:36] Speaker 1: And he's like, were you in kindergarten? And she's like,
[20:39] Speaker 1: I think maybe. And then she took the subway to
[20:42] Speaker 1: school and like, it's all coming back.
[20:45] Speaker 3: What did you do after school? Did you go to
[20:47] Speaker 3: the park?
[20:47] Speaker 1: And she goes, yeah, my brother and I were playing
[20:49] Speaker 1: hide and seek by the arch. That's where Steve grabbed me.
[20:52] Speaker 1: So We cut to Benson holding up a newspaper article going,
[20:57] Speaker 1: so you think this girl is Emma Lawrence? And I
[21:00] Speaker 1: do have a friend named Emma Lawrence and I did
[21:02] Speaker 1: text her the subtitles from this, but there has like
[21:05] Speaker 1: never been an episode where they say the victim's name
[21:07] Speaker 1: so many times. Like they just kept being like, is
[21:09] Speaker 1: this an age progression of Emma Lawrence? And I was like, oh,
[21:12] Speaker 1: it's so crazy. My friend Emma was like, I'm alive.
[21:14] Speaker 1: I was like, actually, spoiler. Um, So she disappeared in 2007. Emma,
[21:21] Speaker 1: little Emma, she was six years old. So she'd be
[21:23] Speaker 1: about 16 now. And the, it was the arch, the
[21:27] Speaker 1: big brother, little M as the nickname, like it all
[21:30] Speaker 1: falls into this Emma Lawrence case. And Benson's like, I
[21:33] Speaker 1: wish we had something more concrete. And then they show
[21:35] Speaker 1: the age progression photo of like Emma Lawrence. And it,
[21:39] Speaker 1: It's a drawing that could truly be like 96% of
[21:42] Speaker 1: white girls on the planet. I mean, it's just like
[21:44] Speaker 1: a very, they're like, it's her. And Carisi like hands
[21:47] Speaker 1: her the iPad like this is a smoking gun. I'm like,
[21:49] Speaker 1: this could truly be so many women. But now they're
[21:52] Speaker 1: at the home of the Lawrence family who has moved
[21:54] Speaker 1: to Queens with their son Glenn eight years ago.
[21:57] Speaker 3: And Carisi shows them the photo. And Glenn is fucking,
[22:00] Speaker 3: I know Glenn. I'll tell you why you know Glenn. Okay. Okay.
[22:04] Speaker 1: So, Carisi shows them the photo and asks them to
[22:06] Speaker 1: take their time, but the mom's like, I don't need
[22:08] Speaker 1: any time.
[22:09] Speaker 3: That's Emma.
[22:09] Speaker 1: Her hair, her eyes, her mouth, her freckles, that's her.
[22:12] Speaker 1: And the mom is played by Kelly Overby, who's been
[22:15] Speaker 1: in more recent seasons of SVU as a judge.
[22:18] Speaker 3: And the dad.
[22:19] Speaker 1: And is Lisa's coffee shop friend.
[22:21] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[22:23] Speaker 1: She frequents the same beer and coffee, amazing coffee shop
[22:27] Speaker 1: that Lisa lives nearby. And... You know, spoiler, we're interviewing
[22:32] Speaker 1: her on this episode. Obviously, if you started the episode,
[22:34] Speaker 1: I think you know who.
[22:34] Speaker 3: The guest is.
[22:36] Speaker 1: And the dad I obviously immediately recognize as the pharmacist
[22:39] Speaker 1: who gives Jackie all her drugs, our nurse Jackie, who
[22:41] Speaker 1: she's having an affair with.
[22:43] Speaker 2: And he's in an SVU where he's living in a
[22:45] Speaker 2: car and he sold his kids.
[22:47] Speaker 3: And then they ended up in like... Oh, yes, yes.
[22:49] Speaker 3: Have we covered that one? We sure did. And we
[22:52] Speaker 3: did try to get him and he said, no, thank you.
[22:54] Speaker 3: He said, no, thank you. But I would love to
[22:56] Speaker 3: have gotten him. Sorry, sir. He's talented.
[22:59] Speaker 1: The dad.
[23:00] Speaker 3: Yeah, he's great. He's in so much stuff.
[23:02] Speaker 1: He's like character actor classic. And the dad tells Glenn,
[23:05] Speaker 1: the younger brother, your sister's alive. And he goes, I
[23:07] Speaker 1: can't believe it. And he might be a little stoned.
[23:09] Speaker 1: He just seems weird. And he is played by Mike Faced.
[23:13] Speaker 1: And this man has won a Grammy and an Emmy.
[23:16] Speaker 1: It's a daytime, but still, I think that counts if
[23:18] Speaker 1: you're trying to EGOT. And he's a Tony Award nominee.
[23:21] Speaker 1: Are you fucking kidding? So he could potentially EGOT. This
[23:23] Speaker 1: guy's an almost EGOT? Oh, challengers. Yes, he's in challengers.
[23:27] Speaker 3: That's how you know him. Oh my God. What's his name?
[23:30] Speaker 3: But he's a Broadway guy.
[23:31] Speaker 1: Mike Faced. F-A-I-S-T.
[23:33] Speaker 2: But he hasn't been in any other SVUs. He like
[23:36] Speaker 2: looks like a frat guy who would rape.
[23:38] Speaker 4: No?
[23:39] Speaker 1: He looks like somebody with a little bit of a,
[23:42] Speaker 1: you know, yeah.
[23:43] Speaker 3: He kind of has that. Like trailer park track or something?
[23:47] Speaker 1: But if you.
[23:49] Speaker 1: Yeah, he looks different, obviously, in Challengers, but I'm... Wait,
[23:54] Speaker 1: I'm double-checking. Yeah, this is his only SVU. This is
[23:58] Speaker 1: his only SVU. So he is, yeah, he's like one
[24:04] Speaker 1: of them, he's the guy she marries in Challengers. So
[24:07] Speaker 1: the mom says, we never gave up hope. And they're like, Carisi,
[24:11] Speaker 1: you're our little baby angel for bringing us this news.
[24:15] Speaker 3: And Rollins and Carisi are headed to their car.
[24:17] Speaker 1: And, you know, Carisi's like high on the fact that
[24:21] Speaker 1: he just like gave these parents this news.
[24:23] Speaker 3: He's like, I fucking did that, you know?
[24:25] Speaker 1: And Benson's like, oh, we're going to hire reunification specialists
[24:28] Speaker 1: and get Emma back with her family.
[24:29] Speaker 3: And Carisi's just like, yeah, I fucking did that, right?
[24:32] Speaker 1: And Rollins is like, dude, I didn't realize you were
[24:35] Speaker 1: such a fan of this missing little girl.
[24:37] Speaker 3: Like, what's up?
[24:38] Speaker 1: And he's like, well, it was a huge nationwide case.
[24:41] Speaker 1: And Rollins is like, yeah, but like, I don't remember
[24:43] Speaker 1: much of it, except that she disappeared in a Cleveland
[24:45] Speaker 1: Cavs t-shirt. which Rollins doesn't understand why any Cavs fan
[24:49] Speaker 1: would live in Brooklyn. And Carisi's like a Lawrence family scholar.
[24:53] Speaker 1: And he's like, yeah, the dad grew up in Cleveland.
[24:55] Speaker 1: That's not that crazy, Rollins. People come to New York
[24:57] Speaker 1: from many places, right?
[24:59] Speaker 2: And she's always like a guys gal knows all about
[25:02] Speaker 2: sports and was LeBron like Cleveland I don't know what
[25:05] Speaker 2: year this is I don't.
[25:06] Speaker 1: Know what's happening no it's 2011 so or no it's
[25:09] Speaker 1: 2017 so I don't know if he's on Cleveland yet
[25:11] Speaker 1: but there's there's a player later in the episode.
[25:14] Speaker 2: Lisa is correct this would have fallen into LeBron James'
[25:17] Speaker 2: second stint with the Cleveland Cavaliers oh okay And LeBron.
[25:22] Speaker 3: And I knew that. And that's why I said that.
[25:23] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[25:24] Speaker 3: Because I knew the year. You knew the year.
[25:26] Speaker 1: Okay.
[25:26] Speaker 3: I have no idea. To me, he's like uncle. No,
[25:28] Speaker 3: I didn't know at all. I had no idea.
[25:31] Speaker 1: But so now at the precinct, they bring the Lawrence
[25:34] Speaker 1: parents in to see Emma. Yeah. but she does not
[25:38] Speaker 1: recognize them. She's like, I don't know them. Sorry to
[25:41] Speaker 1: this fam, right? And then they introduce themselves, but Emma
[25:44] Speaker 1: is still like.
[25:46] Speaker 3: Nah, like, I don't know you. I don't know you.
[25:48] Speaker 1: And then the mom shows her a picture of herself
[25:51] Speaker 1: and Glenn as kids, And she's like, remember, this was
[25:54] Speaker 1: the doll you got for Christmas that year. And Glenn
[25:56] Speaker 1: got a bike.
[25:57] Speaker 3: And she remembers.
[25:58] Speaker 1: And then she's like, oh my God, mom and dad.
[26:01] Speaker 1: And they just want to take her home. And she
[26:03] Speaker 1: seems very excited to get to go home, this girl.
[26:07] Speaker 3: So now, yeah. Which makes sense.
[26:10] Speaker 1: Makes sense. She's been locked up by Steve. So now
[26:13] Speaker 1: Benson is talking to her co-parent, Lucy. Noah is asleep.
[26:17] Speaker 1: And Lucy, or Liv says, I'll be home in 20.
[26:19] Speaker 1: I bet you she lives pretty close to the precinct.
[26:23] Speaker 1: Finn walks in with street cam footage, though, from Central
[26:26] Speaker 1: Park that's throwing a little bit of a wrench into everything.
[26:29] Speaker 1: And it's footage of Emma taking the subway to the park. Like,
[26:37] Speaker 1: there's no white van. She got on a two-train that
[26:39] Speaker 1: started at Grand Concourse in the Bronx. And she got
[26:42] Speaker 1: out at Central Park and lives like, oh, maybe.
[26:47] Speaker 1: I'm doubting the story now, but there's also a lot
[26:51] Speaker 1: of reasons she could forget parts of her story, right?
[26:53] Speaker 3: Like, tons of trauma. She could be fucking up parts
[26:56] Speaker 3: of her account.
[26:56] Speaker 2: Or still scared of Steve. Like, we don't know what
[26:58] Speaker 2: he said to her. Like, what kind of control and power.
[27:02] Speaker 3: Right.
[27:03] Speaker 1: Like, the white van could have dropped her off in
[27:05] Speaker 1: the Bronx, and then she took the subway and forgot
[27:07] Speaker 1: to mention it.
[27:07] Speaker 3: Like, that's not impossible.
[27:09] Speaker 1: So.
[27:10] Speaker 3: Top of act two, we've got Barbara, baby.
[27:12] Speaker 1: And Liv is explaining the situation that Emma might not
[27:15] Speaker 1: be Emma. Benson is like, whether she's telling the truth
[27:17] Speaker 1: or not, something definitely happened to her.
[27:19] Speaker 3: She was abused.
[27:21] Speaker 1: And then Liv goes, like, stares off into the middle
[27:24] Speaker 1: distance looking for Lauren as hell and is like, I
[27:26] Speaker 1: just don't know what to think about anything anymore.
[27:29] Speaker 3: And Barbara's like, are you okay? And then she.
[27:33] Speaker 1: Walks past him. And for a second, I thought she
[27:34] Speaker 1: was like walking away, but she's just shutting the door.
[27:36] Speaker 1: And then she tells Barbara about the grandma Sheila situation.
[27:39] Speaker 1: And the judge let Sheila file for visitation. And Benson's like,
[27:44] Speaker 1: I don't want to do that. My gut is telling
[27:47] Speaker 1: me not to do that. But am I preventing this
[27:50] Speaker 1: boy from having a relationship with his only living blood relative?
[27:54] Speaker 1: which is also so rare. Like, Grandma Sheila has no
[27:57] Speaker 1: other relatives. Her dead husband has no other relatives. Like,
[28:00] Speaker 1: no one else in the world is related to Noah
[28:02] Speaker 1: Porter Benson. Not for nothing, Johnny D has no family,
[28:04] Speaker 1: although they could be if they helped raise Johnny D
[28:09] Speaker 1: that way. So she was so sure. She's always known
[28:13] Speaker 1: what's best for Noah, and now she's just doubting herself
[28:16] Speaker 1: all the time. And Barbara's like, no, trust your instincts.
[28:19] Speaker 1: So we cut to a huge welcome home press conference
[28:22] Speaker 1: for Emma, which is, Definitely necessary and a good idea
[28:26] Speaker 1: for this victim of extreme trauma to be standing in
[28:29] Speaker 1: front of television cameras outside of her home, and now
[28:32] Speaker 1: everyone knows where they live.
[28:33] Speaker 3: I don't understand why this is happening.
[28:34] Speaker 1: And for some reason, Isaiah Thomas, a real-life player for
[28:37] Speaker 1: the Cleveland Cavaliers, is also there. And he's like, I'm
[28:41] Speaker 1: playing for Emma. I pray for her. He gives her
[28:44] Speaker 1: a jersey with 2007, which is like to commemorate the
[28:47] Speaker 1: year she was abducted.
[28:48] Speaker 3: I'm very confused why it would be 2007.
[28:50] Speaker 2: But also, this happens to us. Like, how are we
[28:54] Speaker 2: doing two basketball episodes in a row?
[28:56] Speaker 3: Episodes in a row. Completely unplanned.
[28:59] Speaker 2: I know, but this happens to us where we're like, wait, fuck,
[29:01] Speaker 2: we're doing two of these. Like, I forgot the other examples, unfortunately, because,
[29:06] Speaker 2: you know, we do so many, but this happens to us.
[29:08] Speaker 3: And of non-actors, people.
[29:11] Speaker 1: That guest on the show the most are rappers and
[29:14] Speaker 1: basketball players.
[29:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, there is something. There is something.
[29:18] Speaker 1: Like, they had Jesse Palmer on once, like, for the
[29:21] Speaker 1: design episode.
[29:22] Speaker 3: He's, like, a football player.
[29:23] Speaker 1: But, like, there's just not— it' s always b-ball and rap.
[29:27] Speaker 2: And he wouldn't have gotten that without being on The Bachelor.
[29:29] Speaker 3: Sorry. Right, of course. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true.
[29:34] Speaker 3: That's true.
[29:35] Speaker 2: Um, anyway, he's there. Because it's also people who are
[29:39] Speaker 2: more likely to be fans. of SVU because they don't
[29:41] Speaker 2: need to do this. They're not actors. I'm thinking of Jalen,
[29:44] Speaker 2: you know? I'm thinking of people that are like, I
[29:46] Speaker 2: want to be on SVU.
[29:47] Speaker 3: It's Questlove.
[29:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[29:48] Speaker 3: You know, so it's like, they probably, I'm assuming.
[29:51] Speaker 2: They've watched with their grandma and moms like a lot
[29:54] Speaker 2: of our listeners do. Like, I think it's the people
[29:57] Speaker 2: that are raised on it. I mean, I wish we
[29:58] Speaker 2: could talk to, I wish we could talk to Luda.
[30:01] Speaker 4: Ugh.
[30:02] Speaker 3: Don't I ever. Um, so, he, the 2007 on the
[30:08] Speaker 3: back of the jersey is really blowing my mind. But
[30:09] Speaker 3: he's more of an actor and I didn't mean to
[30:10] Speaker 3: disrespect his acting. Oh yeah, he is a good actor.
[30:13] Speaker 1: Um, like, I just don't understand why we're giving her
[30:16] Speaker 1: a jersey with the year she was abducted on it. Like,
[30:18] Speaker 1: 2017 would make more sense.
[30:19] Speaker 3: I don't know.
[30:20] Speaker 2: Also, maybe I'm, like, having a wrong impression, but I
[30:23] Speaker 2: just can't imagine NBA players knowing of, like... But I
[30:26] Speaker 2: guess if she was kidnapped at the time and was
[30:29] Speaker 2: a fan.
[30:29] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, do the Cavneys more viewership? They were like,
[30:32] Speaker 1: get over there. We need your coverage. They just found
[30:33] Speaker 1: this girl. No, athletes do do a lot of charity
[30:36] Speaker 1: work and stuff.
[30:37] Speaker 2: Remember I told you, like, when I went to the
[30:38] Speaker 2: Tom Brady roast, like, it does feel like the athletes
[30:42] Speaker 2: are more trained to feel grateful for their fans or something. Like,
[30:45] Speaker 2: actors and musicians are very much like, oh, God. And, like,
[30:48] Speaker 2: the athletes just really, like, pose and photo. Like, I
[30:51] Speaker 2: don't know what it is. They are more, like, trained for.
[30:55] Speaker 2: This kind of attention or giving in this way. I
[30:59] Speaker 2: don't know. All theory is nothing is real. Emma is
[31:05] Speaker 2: thanking the crowd. And then she's like, bye, I got
[31:08] Speaker 2: to go be with my family. And then they all
[31:09] Speaker 2: go in the house. But Rollins and Carisi go into
[31:12] Speaker 2: the house too. And they're like, what's up? We just
[31:13] Speaker 2: need DNA samples from everyone. And the dad is like, yeah, okay, sure,
[31:17] Speaker 2: but not now.
[31:17] Speaker 1: And then Carisi appeals to the mom and goes, hey,
[31:20] Speaker 1: the guy that did this is still out there. And
[31:22] Speaker 1: the mom's like, oh, of course, like we don't, we
[31:24] Speaker 1: want to catch the guy who did this and get
[31:26] Speaker 1: him to jail, right? Like, let's let them talk to Emma.
[31:28] Speaker 1: And the dad's like, fine, but we have to be there.
[31:32] Speaker 1: So now Emma is talking to them and she's like
[31:34] Speaker 1: doubling down on the white van. And Rollins is like, well,
[31:37] Speaker 1: when did you take the subway? Because we have footage
[31:39] Speaker 1: of you going from the Bronx to Central Park on
[31:41] Speaker 1: the subway. And she says, I don't know. I forgot
[31:44] Speaker 1: to tell you. We were in the van for a
[31:46] Speaker 1: few hours. We were on a farm, maybe in Pennsylvania.
[31:48] Speaker 1: And then they go, what kind of farm? And she goes,
[31:51] Speaker 1: maybe it was an orange farm.
[31:53] Speaker 3: Like, babe, come on.
[31:56] Speaker 1: There's no orange farms in Pennsylvania, groves in Pennsylvania. And
[31:59] Speaker 1: she goes, I wasn't allowed out much. I don't want
[32:01] Speaker 1: to talk about this anymore. So now the gang is chatting.
[32:04] Speaker 1: Rollins is obviously not buying any of this. And Benson
[32:06] Speaker 1: is still like, well, It could just be gaps in
[32:09] Speaker 1: her memory. And then Finn asks Barba, like, well, can
[32:11] Speaker 1: we get a warrant for her DNA? And he's like,
[32:13] Speaker 1: I could, but I'd rather not. Like, this case has
[32:15] Speaker 1: been closed. Like, if you guys want to unclose it,
[32:18] Speaker 1: you got to find a reason. And Carisi's like, I
[32:20] Speaker 1: think I may have just found it. He sent this
[32:22] Speaker 1: picture to, I don't know, some crime unit.
[32:26] Speaker 3: And this girl.
[32:27] Speaker 1: is wanted on a bench warrant for credit card fraud
[32:29] Speaker 1: in Florida. Her name is Brittany Taylor. She was born
[32:32] Speaker 1: in 96, so she's actually 21. And the arresting officer
[32:36] Speaker 1: said she had cigarette burns and a chemical burn on
[32:38] Speaker 1: her arm.
[32:39] Speaker 3: So it's Brittany, bitch.
[32:41] Speaker 2: You said the burn thing after. I was about to
[32:43] Speaker 2: be like, it's my favorite kind of episode. Definitely not
[32:45] Speaker 2: the burn on a woman.
[32:47] Speaker 3: For me.
[32:48] Speaker 2: I love a, I love a fake vet. I like
[32:50] Speaker 2: someone that's like older. I love an imposter. I love,
[32:53] Speaker 2: this is probably like the fifth or sixth time they've
[32:55] Speaker 2: done this.
[32:56] Speaker 3: Yes. In the SVU universe. And I love it every
[32:59] Speaker 3: single time.
[33:00] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[33:00] Speaker 3: Love it.
[33:01] Speaker 1: I love a imposter who just studied up and tried
[33:04] Speaker 1: to infiltrate a family. The top of Act 3, Liv
[33:08] Speaker 1: is watching like a 2020-style interview with Emma and the
[33:11] Speaker 1: Lawrence family being interviewed again in their home. Emma's describing
[33:14] Speaker 1: her kidnapping. They ask Glenn, like, what did you think
[33:17] Speaker 1: when Emma went missing? And he goes, I thought she
[33:20] Speaker 1: was just hiding. Like, I called for her And then
[33:23] Speaker 1: when I didn't see anything, I called for my parents.
[33:25] Speaker 1: And Glenn seems weird as hell. And Carisi's like, something's
[33:29] Speaker 1: going on here. I read the DD5. Glenn told the
[33:32] Speaker 1: investigators that he heard Emma scream, found the underwear, and
[33:35] Speaker 1: then he ran home. And now he claims he didn't
[33:37] Speaker 1: hear anything. And he's tailoring his version of events to
[33:40] Speaker 1: match hers, they figure. And he was never originally a suspect,
[33:44] Speaker 1: but he was interviewed a dozen times. And by the way,
[33:47] Speaker 1: this is obviously playing off of the theory about JonBenet
[33:50] Speaker 1: that was clear, like, was huge at the time. Because
[33:54] Speaker 1: this was, like, around the time where the JonBenet case was, like,
[33:57] Speaker 1: back in the news. CBS, like, recreated her house and did, like,
[34:01] Speaker 1: a full cold case thing about it. And it was
[34:06] Speaker 1: the suggested theory at the time was that her brother
[34:09] Speaker 1: did it.
[34:10] Speaker 4: And.
[34:10] Speaker 1: that parents covered it up, and his name is Burke,
[34:13] Speaker 1: and this character is named Glenn, and spiritually, that's the
[34:16] Speaker 1: same name, I think. I believe when I heard that
[34:18] Speaker 1: his name was Glenn, I was like, what, did they
[34:20] Speaker 1: just use the same name? Like, I had to look
[34:21] Speaker 1: it up, and I was like, okay, it's basically the same.
[34:24] Speaker 2: But also with Jean Benet, it's like, how do you
[34:26] Speaker 2: have a Jean Benet and a Burke?
[34:27] Speaker 3: Like, who are you people? Well, how is Jean Benet
[34:30] Speaker 3: even a name? Like, I just.
[34:33] Speaker 2: Crime of the century. I mean, I would say top
[34:35] Speaker 2: 10 crime of the century.
[34:36] Speaker 3: Totally.
[34:37] Speaker 2: Not that there is rankings, all victims matter, but like
[34:40] Speaker 2: that really took over the world and still does still
[34:43] Speaker 2: a reference.
[34:44] Speaker 3: Everyone knows what she looks like. I mean, it was,
[34:46] Speaker 3: it is crazy. Yeah, it is. It is.
[34:49] Speaker 1: I will say one of my most fascinating cases.
[34:51] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[34:51] Speaker 3: I love it. I don't love it. The pineapple. I
[34:54] Speaker 3: hate to say that. It is like a thing. Yeah,
[34:56] Speaker 3: the pineapple.
[34:56] Speaker 2: Well, and I wonder if we would have gotten somewhere
[34:59] Speaker 2: if it wasn't for the police traipsing all over the
[35:02] Speaker 2: crime scene, not getting evidence, doing their job poorly.
[35:05] Speaker 3: Not knowing what they were doing.
[35:06] Speaker 1: Yeah. So next scene, Glenn is drinking at a bar.
[35:11] Speaker 1: And who do you send to sweet talk a suspect who's.
[35:13] Speaker 3: Boozing it up at the bar? Amanda Rollins, right?
[35:16] Speaker 1: She gets there, eyes aflutter, and she's like buttering up
[35:20] Speaker 1: this guy going, you know, I've always really felt for you.
[35:23] Speaker 1: It must have been really tough for you. And he's like,
[35:25] Speaker 1: nobody knows anything, not about me. And Rollins is like,
[35:30] Speaker 1: I'd like to. And he's like, no, I can't trust anyone.
[35:32] Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, trust your instincts, sir. You cannot
[35:34] Speaker 1: trust Rollins. And she goes, you can trust me. And
[35:37] Speaker 1: he's like, no, what about Emma? And he goes, Emma
[35:40] Speaker 1: and me know what's up. And then she goes, what
[35:43] Speaker 1: does Emma know, Glenn? And he goes, she knows why.
[35:46] Speaker 1: And then Glenn goes, where is Emma, Glenn? And he goes, deep,
[35:50] Speaker 1: deep down, deep, deep enough. I mean, it's creepy. The
[35:55] Speaker 1: dad shows up at this exact moment, as Glenn might
[35:58] Speaker 1: be drunk enough to give away more information, and says,
[36:01] Speaker 1: let's go.
[36:01] Speaker 3: Don't trust this bitch.
[36:02] Speaker 1: Thanks, the bartender. Because the bartender called the dad. He's
[36:05] Speaker 1: obviously looking out. Good looking out, Greg. And then the
[36:07] Speaker 1: dad says, stay the hell away from my family. And.
[36:11] Speaker 1: They're like, we got to get that girl out of there,
[36:13] Speaker 1: con artist or not. Like she is living with this
[36:17] Speaker 1: freaky brother. We got to go see what's up. So
[36:19] Speaker 1: next we see Carisi leading Emma out of the house
[36:22] Speaker 1: in cuffs. The parents are threatening lawsuits, asking them to stop.
[36:25] Speaker 1: She says, mom, dad, I'll explain it. It's a misunderstanding.
[36:28] Speaker 1: And the dad's like, I'm calling our lawyer. And then
[36:30] Speaker 1: Glenn stands in the doorway looking insane. So they show
[36:34] Speaker 1: Emma the file on Brittany Taylor. And she's like, that's
[36:36] Speaker 1: a fake name. Steve made me steal credit cards and
[36:38] Speaker 1: lie to the cops. I'm sorry I made up the
[36:40] Speaker 1: lie about the van and the orange farm in Pennsylvania.
[36:42] Speaker 1: I've been in Florida with Steve. Benson says, listen, Brittany, Emma,
[36:46] Speaker 1: or whoever you are, we got the DNA swab, so
[36:48] Speaker 1: we're going to figure this out. And she's like, why
[36:50] Speaker 1: do you got to go and do that? Bill and
[36:52] Speaker 1: Karen love me. All of New York loves me. I'm
[36:55] Speaker 1: the story of the year. I'm good news for once.
[36:58] Speaker 1: And they're like, what about the burns? Like, who did
[37:00] Speaker 1: that to you? And she's like, my real family, okay?
[37:03] Speaker 1: My mom was a meth head. She put cigs out
[37:05] Speaker 1: on me. I tried to fight her off and she
[37:06] Speaker 1: put drain cleaner all over me. I learned my lesson.
[37:09] Speaker 1: I'm never going back there. And she's like, but I
[37:12] Speaker 1: can't go anywhere. Don't you get it? I'm 21 years old.
[37:15] Speaker 1: I'm too old for the youth shelters and the adult shelters.
[37:18] Speaker 1: And she kind of like shudders, right? Like, I don't
[37:20] Speaker 1: think she probably had a great experience her first night
[37:22] Speaker 1: or two at an adult shelter. She says, I saw
[37:25] Speaker 1: a special on the news. Bill and Karen were sending
[37:27] Speaker 1: a message to Emma. I read all about her. I
[37:30] Speaker 1: just wanted a family. What's wrong with that? They want
[37:32] Speaker 1: me to be their family, Bill and Karen. And then
[37:36] Speaker 1: they're like, what about Glenn? And she goes, oh, he
[37:38] Speaker 1: wants me there the most. He knows I'm not really Emma.
[37:41] Speaker 1: But she says, I make his mom happy. And like,
[37:45] Speaker 1: you can never tell the truth and you can never leave.
[37:47] Speaker 1: But Glenn told her that Emma's never coming back. And
[37:50] Speaker 1: she's like, are you going to arrest me? And Liv's like,
[37:53] Speaker 1: not if you help us. So Emma meets Glenn at
[37:56] Speaker 1: a diner.
[37:57] Speaker 3: And they chat.
[37:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're willing to go undercover, you can get
[38:00] Speaker 2: away with anything. Yeah, we'll let you off the hook, babe.
[38:02] Speaker 3: That's what I've learned from this universe. Yeah.
[38:05] Speaker 1: So Emma meets Glenn at a diner. And then maybe
[38:07] Speaker 1: they can get her over to Sister Peg. We can
[38:09] Speaker 1: get this girl, like, a job or, like, into some
[38:11] Speaker 1: kind of program.
[38:12] Speaker 3: Is Sister Peg not dead?
[38:13] Speaker 4: In 2017?
[38:14] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[38:16] Speaker 3: Yeah, of course. Oh, you're right. She's long dead, season 12.
[38:18] Speaker 3: She's long dead.
[38:19] Speaker 1: Whoever Sister Peg left her business to, you know what
[38:21] Speaker 1: I mean.
[38:22] Speaker 3: Like, get her into a program. Like, she just needs help.
[38:24] Speaker 1: Like, she's just been on her own, I think, since
[38:27] Speaker 1: she was like 16 and doesn't know how to do anything. Um, so, uh,
[38:33] Speaker 1: she's talking to Glenn and she's going, I don't know
[38:36] Speaker 1: if I can trust you. He's like, you can. She goes,
[38:38] Speaker 1: I need to know the truth so I can protect myself.
[38:40] Speaker 1: If we're going to be partners, then you need to
[38:42] Speaker 1: come clean. What if Emma comes back? What happens to
[38:44] Speaker 1: me then? And Glenn's like, she's not coming back. And
[38:48] Speaker 1: she straight up asks, did you do something to her, Glenn?
[38:50] Speaker 3: Did you hurt her? Should I be worried? And he goes,
[38:53] Speaker 3: it was an accident. I didn't mean it. I didn't
[38:55] Speaker 3: mean it.
[38:56] Speaker 1: And then we cut to the interrogation where they're listening
[38:59] Speaker 1: to the tape.
[39:00] Speaker 3: I didn't mean it. Finn and Rollins are there.
[39:02] Speaker 4: And....
[39:05] Speaker 1: Glenn just tells the fucking story. He sets the scene.
[39:07] Speaker 1: He's like, she knew not to dance in front of
[39:09] Speaker 1: the TV.
[39:10] Speaker 3: I told her to move. She wouldn't.
[39:12] Speaker 1: So I grabbed a couch cushion. I pressed down. She
[39:16] Speaker 1: was struggling. I was just so mad and I kept
[39:20] Speaker 1: pressing down. I just wanted her to stop. And then
[39:22] Speaker 1: she did.
[39:24] Speaker 3: And that's like.
[39:25] Speaker 1: So fucking nuts just because you're obviously a psychopath.
[39:28] Speaker 3: My kids constantly are like, you're in front of me.
[39:30] Speaker 1: Get out of the, you're in front of the TV.
[39:32] Speaker 1: But no one's murdering anyone. Like that's a lot. And
[39:36] Speaker 1: their age difference was two, eight and six. Did he
[39:41] Speaker 1: do this when he was like nine maybe? And It's
[39:46] Speaker 1: just very JonBenet and Burke. Like, I mean, to me,
[39:48] Speaker 1: that's the most plausible theory going, that Burke did it
[39:51] Speaker 1: and the family's covering up for it. The dad at
[39:53] Speaker 1: this point, because the mom's dead. But that's more JonBenet
[39:56] Speaker 1: for me. So they're like, who helped you with the body?
[39:59] Speaker 3: You were a kid. Like, there's no way you got
[40:00] Speaker 3: rid of your sister's body on your own.
[40:02] Speaker 1: So Carisi shows up to arrest Bill, the dad.
[40:05] Speaker 3: Karen is like, where's my son? Where's my daughter? What
[40:08] Speaker 3: are you doing to my family?
[40:09] Speaker 1: In exchange for Bill's guilty plea, of false reporting and obstruction,
[40:13] Speaker 1: they will lessen Glenn's sentence from manslaughter to criminally negligent homicide.
[40:19] Speaker 1: I wonder what the difference is between those two.
[40:22] Speaker 3: I'm sure.
[40:23] Speaker 1: Can a lawyer please tell me? Because I always think
[40:26] Speaker 1: of manslaughter as mostly accidental.
[40:29] Speaker 3: I guess that's involuntary manslaughter. And then.
[40:32] Speaker 1: Criminal negligent homicide is like you do do something bad,
[40:34] Speaker 1: but you're not intending for it to lead to murder.
[40:36] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[40:37] Speaker 1: I thought that was also a murder one. The dad
[40:40] Speaker 1: allocutes at trial. He talks about he said it's like
[40:43] Speaker 1: a nice monologue that they give this actor. He's like,
[40:45] Speaker 1: I loved Emma when she died. I lost a part
[40:48] Speaker 1: of myself. I would have rather lost all of myself
[40:51] Speaker 1: than discover her lifeless body. I tried to resuscitate her.
[40:54] Speaker 1: And then under his voiceover, we see a CSU squad
[40:58] Speaker 1: going into the woods, digging up, finding Emma's skeletal remains.
[41:02] Speaker 1: Bill continues talking and going, then right after I had
[41:06] Speaker 1: the worst moment of my life, I saw my son's
[41:08] Speaker 1: life disappear before my eyes. And meanwhile, we're watching Carisi
[41:13] Speaker 1: carry out a six-year-old skeleton wrapped in a blanket. Bill,
[41:17] Speaker 1: and obviously it's hitting Carisi hard. He's like the number
[41:20] Speaker 1: one fan of the Emma Lawrence case.
[41:21] Speaker 3: This is not how he wanted it to end.
[41:23] Speaker 1: Bill continues, no one should go through what Glenn did.
[41:26] Speaker 1: I'm like, what? Glenn was probably a murderous little psychopath
[41:31] Speaker 1: of a child. Like he held a pillow over his
[41:33] Speaker 1: sister's face until she stopped moving. But I guess we, yeah,
[41:37] Speaker 1: no kid should go through that because no kid should
[41:39] Speaker 1: do that. But no father should have to see their
[41:41] Speaker 1: son like that. Wow, this guy is really hashtag boy dad,
[41:45] Speaker 1: I wrote in my notes. And he loved his sister.
[41:48] Speaker 1: I did what any father would do. I couldn't lose
[41:51] Speaker 1: him too. I don't regret helping my son. I haven't
[41:53] Speaker 1: thought twice about it. I accepted the plea to avoid
[41:56] Speaker 1: putting my wife through a painful trial. I miss Emma
[41:59] Speaker 1: and I forgive Glenn and I just wish you could
[42:01] Speaker 1: forgive him and me too. And Karen walks out of
[42:03] Speaker 1: the courtroom. And Benson follows her out. And she's like,
[42:07] Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for everything you've been through. And Karen's like,
[42:09] Speaker 1: I wish you never found this girl. Like, before she
[42:13] Speaker 1: came into the picture, I still had hope that my
[42:16] Speaker 1: little girl was alive.
[42:16] Speaker 3: And now I have nothing.
[42:18] Speaker 1: Like, my son is going to jail. So is my
[42:20] Speaker 1: husband for a period of time. And now I don't
[42:22] Speaker 1: even have my fake daughter anymore. And maybe she moves
[42:25] Speaker 1: in with her. Maybe that's like a little movie that
[42:27] Speaker 1: happens after. She's like, you need somewhere to go.
[42:30] Speaker 3: I want a daughter.
[42:30] Speaker 1: I want a daughter. she lives with her and she
[42:33] Speaker 1: gets a job at like a Dunkin' Donuts or something.
[42:35] Speaker 3: I don't know.
[42:36] Speaker 1: Sheila walks then into a bar in the last scene.
[42:39] Speaker 1: She sits at a table with Benson and Sheila says,
[42:42] Speaker 1: I don't want to be your enemy. And it's like, really?
[42:43] Speaker 1: Cause you really came at it at a very combative
[42:46] Speaker 1: enemy kind of way. Like you really did come at it.
[42:49] Speaker 1: You made a lot of snide comments in the courtroom,
[42:51] Speaker 1: even just a few days ago. And Benson's like, you
[42:54] Speaker 1: are my son's grandmother and And I don't think we
[42:56] Speaker 1: should be dealing with each other in a courtroom. And
[42:58] Speaker 1: Sheila says, I realized like showing up could not have
[43:02] Speaker 1: been easy for you. And the last thing I want
[43:04] Speaker 1: to do is cause you stress by trying to vacate
[43:07] Speaker 1: your adoption, which I was trying to do. I don't
[43:10] Speaker 1: want to cause any stress for you or for Noah.
[43:12] Speaker 3: I was just trying to get your attention.
[43:14] Speaker 1: She said, I used to think Ellie never listened to me,
[43:16] Speaker 1: but I wasn't saying anything she wanted to hear. I
[43:18] Speaker 1: didn't see her or what she wanted. And Benson's like,
[43:21] Speaker 1: can I ask like what happened with Ellie? And Sheila's
[43:24] Speaker 1: like just a typical teenager acting out. She had a
[43:26] Speaker 1: boyfriend who was a little bit older. My husband hated him.
[43:30] Speaker 1: She started using drugs and the angrier that my husband got,
[43:33] Speaker 1: the more Ellie withdrew. And then he even called the
[43:35] Speaker 1: cops on her one time. And then he said, we
[43:38] Speaker 1: have to just let her go.
[43:39] Speaker 3: Tough love.
[43:40] Speaker 1: And the mom just went along with him. And he
[43:42] Speaker 1: died a year after she left. And then grandma Sheila's like,
[43:45] Speaker 1: I lost my husband.
[43:46] Speaker 3: I lost my daughter. I don't want to lose my grandchild.
[43:48] Speaker 1: And Benson's like, I really want to do what's best
[43:50] Speaker 1: for my son.
[43:51] Speaker 3: So now what?
[43:53] Speaker 1: So then this is actually the final scene. We're at
[43:55] Speaker 1: Benson's place. Noah actually really does look so cute. And
[43:58] Speaker 1: he sounds really cute here. I know he's like still
[43:59] Speaker 1: kind of annoying and the cab incident and he was
[44:02] Speaker 1: being a little bit of a bitch. But here he's like,
[44:05] Speaker 1: she's just saying like, if you don't want to do this,
[44:07] Speaker 1: just tell me, just whisper in my ear like we do.
[44:09] Speaker 1: And he's like, okay.
[44:10] Speaker 3: He has like a cute little voice. And Sheila shows up.
[44:12] Speaker 3: I don't know. Am I changing? Now I like Noah,
[44:15] Speaker 3: third Noah.
[44:15] Speaker 1: I don't know.
[44:17] Speaker 3: Sheila shows up. Benson invites her in. She meets Noah.
[44:19] Speaker 3: It's very cute.
[44:20] Speaker 1: He calls her, he says, hi, grandma, like right away.
[44:23] Speaker 1: She's like, I brought you some books.
[44:24] Speaker 4: I want to read to you.
[44:25] Speaker 3: Can I do that?
[44:26] Speaker 1: And he's like, yeah, you want to see my room?
[44:27] Speaker 1: And it's all really cute. It's a shame that grandma
[44:30] Speaker 1: Sheila had to go totally fucking insane. Spoiler alert for
[44:33] Speaker 1: people that don't watch the show because obviously Brooke Shields
[44:37] Speaker 1: wouldn't be around forever, but they could have been a
[44:40] Speaker 1: cute little non-traditional family, you know? And that's Dick Wolf, baby.
[44:45] Speaker 1: And I do wonder what happened to Poor Brittany Taylor.
[44:47] Speaker 1: I hope she moved in with Karen and they found
[44:50] Speaker 1: a symbiotic living relationship together.
[44:54] Speaker 3: I do, too.
[44:56] Speaker 2: And it, like, sucks when the mom is like, yeah,
[44:59] Speaker 2: I wish you never fucking found, like, at least I
[45:02] Speaker 2: had hope.
[45:02] Speaker 3: I had a family. Now she has nobody.
[45:04] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[45:05] Speaker 3: And maybe this teen. Maybe this teen. All right.
[45:09] Speaker 4: All right.
[45:15] Speaker 2: The crimes aren't actually, they don't belong. But you know
[45:20] Speaker 2: what's funny? It's like every time, like I just thought
[45:23] Speaker 2: we were going to do JonBenet one day, but we
[45:25] Speaker 2: keep being like, oh, it'll be in a different episode.
[45:27] Speaker 3: But I don't think we're ever going to cover it.
[45:29] Speaker 3: There was a beauty queen one though, isn't there? Yeah,
[45:31] Speaker 3: the suitcase, but we did it. Appearances. I think we
[45:34] Speaker 3: did it.
[45:36] Speaker 1: Oh.
[45:37] Speaker 3: And did the other crime being like, we'll do JonBenet
[45:39] Speaker 3: a different day.
[45:39] Speaker 1: I mean, to me, JonBenet just feels like, who is
[45:42] Speaker 1: learning about JonBenet from us?
[45:44] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[45:45] Speaker 3: Who is learning about that from us? Do you know
[45:46] Speaker 3: what I mean?
[45:47] Speaker 2: It would also truly be like an undertaking, I would say,
[45:50] Speaker 2: to research.
[45:52] Speaker 3: Yeah. It's its own podcast. I mean, I bet there
[45:55] Speaker 3: are multiple podcasts about JonBenet. Okay.
[45:57] Speaker 4: No.
[45:57] Speaker 2: So this is, this case is John Neese. John Neese Jones.
[46:03] Speaker 2: John Neese Jones. And it was called the Baby Bones case,
[46:07] Speaker 2: which is fucked up. I guess this is the connection
[46:10] Speaker 2: to the episode, the Baby Bones, the bones of the young.
[46:14] Speaker 3: Okay. So in 2002, a nine-year-old dies in Harlem.
[46:17] Speaker 2: The case is then known as Baby Bones because the
[46:22] Speaker 2: skeletal remains were burnt. So like a body was burned
[46:24] Speaker 2: and then the skeletal remains were found by a hunter
[46:27] Speaker 2: in the woods not far from the Six Flags in
[46:30] Speaker 2: Jersey in like Upper Freehold Township.
[46:32] Speaker 3: That's my Six Flags.
[46:35] Speaker 2: And then officials used DNA to identify the body as
[46:40] Speaker 2: John Neese Jones. Prosecutors said she died in her home
[46:44] Speaker 2: after years of abuse and neglect by her mother in
[46:47] Speaker 2: the home of her aunt.
[46:49] Speaker 3: And then the mom died soon after that.
[46:50] Speaker 2: But before the bitch died, her and the uncle and
[46:53] Speaker 2: the aunt's boyfriend burned the body and disposed of it.
[46:57] Speaker 2: Then the investigation took seven years. The case was then
[47:00] Speaker 2: featured on America's Most Wanted in 2009. And then in
[47:04] Speaker 2: October 2012, three New Yorkers, these guys, they were charged
[47:10] Speaker 2: with hindering apprehension and disposal of bodies and obstruction. So
[47:13] Speaker 2: Lakeisha Jones is the aunt, Godfrey Gibson is the aunt's boyfriend,
[47:17] Speaker 2: and James Jones is the uncle. And these people turned
[47:20] Speaker 2: a blind eye to constant physical and mental abuse of
[47:23] Speaker 2: this young girl. Like, they lived in this house while
[47:25] Speaker 2: this girl was getting the shit beat out of her
[47:26] Speaker 2: so bad that she died from these injuries. December 2013,
[47:29] Speaker 2: NBC News New York reported that the three of them
[47:32] Speaker 2: pled guilty. One count each of third-degree conspiracy, and then
[47:36] Speaker 2: also third-degree hindrance in the apprehension of another.
[47:40] Speaker 4: Okay?
[47:41] Speaker 2: And this was in Mammoth County Superior Court. And then
[47:44] Speaker 2: with the New York Post and me, myself, Lisa Trager,
[47:47] Speaker 2: is calling wrist-slap sentences... These people only got two years probation.
[47:51] Speaker 2: The uncle did get an additional 364 days in jail.
[47:56] Speaker 3: But like, yeah, they just got probation. Why did the uncle.
[48:00] Speaker 1: Randomly get 364 days and the other two, maybe he's
[48:03] Speaker 1: like the one that buried it or something?
[48:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, but so did the boyfriend. Like the aunt didn't go,
[48:07] Speaker 2: but like, so fine. But like, why wouldn't the boyfriend?
[48:10] Speaker 2: Maybe they turned on him. Maybe he did the burning.
[48:12] Speaker 3: Maybe he turned.
[48:13] Speaker 2: But even if you burn a body, you should get
[48:16] Speaker 2: more than a year.
[48:17] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[48:17] Speaker 3: That is so fucking sad. It's very sad.
[48:20] Speaker 1: Like this poor child had like this awful life and
[48:22] Speaker 1: then died and then somebody gets not even a full year.
[48:25] Speaker 1: One person gets like not even a full year of
[48:27] Speaker 1: jail over it.
[48:27] Speaker 3: Like, oh, God.
[48:31] Speaker 2: And then the next case is the Casey Elise Peterson case.
[48:36] Speaker 3: And so a teen turns up in New York City.
[48:39] Speaker 2: She has amnesia, but she's emptied out her bank account
[48:42] Speaker 2: and then left everything behind in her former home in
[48:44] Speaker 2: Washington state. And the police found her and she was
[48:48] Speaker 2: identified as Casey Elise Peterson. She was 18 years old.
[48:51] Speaker 2: No one really knew how she like traveled throughout the country.
[48:54] Speaker 2: She just woke up saying she had no memory of
[48:56] Speaker 2: her family or home or name or anything. The father
[48:59] Speaker 2: did report her missing though on October 2nd of that year.
[49:03] Speaker 2: And then she was found October 9th outside of a
[49:06] Speaker 2: Manhattan youth shelter, but she was not a resident. And
[49:09] Speaker 2: they say she wasn't even trying to get in there,
[49:10] Speaker 2: but a security guard noticed her as he was like
[49:12] Speaker 2: walking around, you know, like doing his rounds. So he
[49:15] Speaker 2: saw that she was like unresponsive and laying there. And
[49:17] Speaker 2: so then a photo of this woman aired on CNN
[49:20] Speaker 2: and a viewer in Maryland was familiar with her and
[49:23] Speaker 2: alerted authorities and they got a positive identification. They don't
[49:26] Speaker 2: know how she lost her memory. The dad came to
[49:29] Speaker 2: New York to pick her up, even though a CBS
[49:31] Speaker 2: News affiliate in Spokane, Washington, did report that her and
[49:34] Speaker 2: the dad did not get along. And with the bank
[49:37] Speaker 2: account being drained, that led people to believe she left
[49:39] Speaker 2: on her own accord.
[49:41] Speaker 3: And she is 18, so like, what do you do?
[49:43] Speaker 2: And she wasn't living with her dad, but with her
[49:46] Speaker 2: deceased mother's friend in Kingston, like another neighborhood. And the
[49:49] Speaker 2: dad was from eastern Washington. And he said that she
[49:52] Speaker 2: had had amnesia episodes before. And then for a moment,
[49:58] Speaker 2: an NBC affiliate in Kansas City thought that she could
[50:00] Speaker 2: have been a missing teen, Kara Kapetsky from Belton, Missouri,
[50:03] Speaker 2: who was missing for two years, but that was not
[50:05] Speaker 2: the case. Sadly, not much is known about her after
[50:09] Speaker 2: all of this. And then she passed away March 23rd,
[50:12] Speaker 2: 2025 in New York City, and she was 33 years old.
[50:14] Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
[50:20] Speaker 1: It reminds me of that other case that we did
[50:22] Speaker 1: where the girl just had, like, the fugue state thing
[50:25] Speaker 1: where she just walked around New York for, like, days
[50:28] Speaker 1: and has.
[50:29] Speaker 3: No memory of any of it. Like, it's just, like,
[50:31] Speaker 3: a fugue thing.
[50:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's, like, I wish I was able to
[50:34] Speaker 2: find more information about this, but it's, like, it wasn't
[50:36] Speaker 2: salacious enough or something because... was she lying about the
[50:40] Speaker 2: amnesia or was it real? Did she get an MRI?
[50:42] Speaker 2: What is it? But, like, also, you don't have to
[50:44] Speaker 2: tell us your medical history. Did you just want to
[50:47] Speaker 2: get away from your dad? Did you want to do
[50:48] Speaker 2: something in New York? Did you really have this fugue
[50:50] Speaker 2: state of the other person and arrive here and not
[50:53] Speaker 2: know anything?
[50:53] Speaker 1: Because to empty a bank account in a fugue state
[50:56] Speaker 1: is kind of weird.
[50:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, but remember the other girl in the real life, like,
[51:01] Speaker 2: she was doing regular things. Like, she looked like a regular, like,
[51:04] Speaker 2: functioning person. And it was only $ 400, so it is
[51:07] Speaker 2: scary to even realize, like, think about how she got
[51:10] Speaker 2: across the country and stuff.
[51:11] Speaker 3: Like, I don't... So, yeah, not much is known. I
[51:14] Speaker 3: tried digging.
[51:15] Speaker 2: And then one obituary site, you had to, like, pay
[51:19] Speaker 2: more to get more information.
[51:20] Speaker 3: I'm like, does no one have a fucking... Yeah, it's, like, disgusting. Yeah.
[51:25] Speaker 3: People are disgusting. Yeah.
[51:29] Speaker 2: Well... So, yeah, they're short and not really fully related, but.
[51:32] Speaker 1: And this one, obviously, in online, it says that this
[51:35] Speaker 1: one's based on, like, our favorite imposter man, but we
[51:38] Speaker 1: already talked about him when we did the shamrock.
[51:41] Speaker 3: Frederique, I think, Baudin, or whatever his name is. And
[51:43] Speaker 3: there is a.
[51:44] Speaker 2: Documentary, if you didn't listen to our episode, it was
[51:46] Speaker 2: based on episode Stranger. Then we did that other one
[51:48] Speaker 2: with the girl with the braces. Like, that was a
[51:50] Speaker 2: really interesting case. Remember, you covered that crime, and it was, like,
[51:54] Speaker 2: this girl that, like, kept... changing her identities. Like, this
[51:58] Speaker 2: does happen. It does interest me. But that guy, I mean, chills.
[52:02] Speaker 2: I remember seeing that in the movie theater on my birthday, wildly. Like,
[52:05] Speaker 2: me and my ex and my family went to dinner.
[52:08] Speaker 2: And then afterwards, we went to see this, the imposter documentary.
[52:11] Speaker 2: So it's like a big part of my life.
[52:13] Speaker 4: Oh, wow.
[52:14] Speaker 3: I didn't know you'd seen the doc in the theater. Wow.
[52:17] Speaker 3: On my birthday. On your birthday. Just a little summer movie.
[52:21] Speaker 2: Well, it's like when people are like, They think it's
[52:24] Speaker 2: like a trend or like, oh, have you always been
[52:26] Speaker 2: into this or that? And it's like, no, I've actually
[52:28] Speaker 2: been quite consistent for decades of my life. Like anytime
[52:31] Speaker 2: I find an old SVU thing in my life or
[52:33] Speaker 2: like old tweets or like just like any.
[52:35] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like I guess I went... I've been at
[52:36] Speaker 3: this for a while.
[52:37] Speaker 2: I guess in my early 20s, my birthday was spent
[52:40] Speaker 2: at the imposter. Like, it's crazy. But yeah, an interest
[52:48] Speaker 2: in the dark arts. Oh my God, a few nights ago,
[52:50] Speaker 2: I was going to the Lad Bible, of course.
[52:52] Speaker 3: But it was.
[52:54] Speaker 2: Did I already say this? I probably might have said this,
[52:56] Speaker 2: but it was like, I fell in love with someone
[52:58] Speaker 2: on death row. And then she's like talking about it.
[53:01] Speaker 2: And then she starts talking about the electrocution and stuff.
[53:03] Speaker 2: And I go, or the injection. I go, maybe it's
[53:06] Speaker 2: not for bed.
[53:07] Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe not right before I close my little eyes
[53:10] Speaker 1: to sleep.
[53:10] Speaker 3: But I did keep.
[53:11] Speaker 2: Watching it because she's like in law and was studying
[53:14] Speaker 2: racism within the death penalty in Texas. And like fell
[53:17] Speaker 2: in love with this guy, got married within six months
[53:19] Speaker 2: to him. But like you are watching being like, you
[53:22] Speaker 2: must be crazy.
[53:23] Speaker 3: Yeah. But I don't know. That's all I got. All right. Well,
[53:30] Speaker 3: thank you so much. We have my friend. We have
[53:32] Speaker 3: my coffee shop friend. Yes. Finally, we're talking to the
[53:35] Speaker 3: coffee shop cutie. Stay tuned.
[53:45] Speaker 1: Our guest today is an actor who was recently featured
[53:49] Speaker 1: in the shows Evil and Bull. She's also known for
[53:51] Speaker 1: her role in the Stephen King miniseries, The Stand, and
[53:55] Speaker 1: for writing and acting in the movie, That's What She Said,
[53:57] Speaker 1: starring Anne Heche and Alita Shachat. And, you know, she's
[54:02] Speaker 1: Lisa's neighbor. And you know her today also as grieving mother,
[54:06] Speaker 1: Karen Lawrence. We finally got her, everybody. Enjoy our chat
[54:09] Speaker 1: with Kelly Overby. Walk me through the.
[54:11] Speaker 2: First encounter at the coffee shop. You were just there
[54:14] Speaker 2: getting your latte.
[54:15] Speaker 3: I don't even remember how we started chatting.
[54:17] Speaker 4: I remember you had a bag about your podcast.
[54:20] Speaker 3: Oh, my God.
[54:21] Speaker 4: You had a bag on SVU, and I wanted to
[54:23] Speaker 4: get a picture of it for my friend Kat, who
[54:25] Speaker 4: is a uber fan of the show.
[54:29] Speaker 3: Oh, is it my tote bag that says sex crimes?
[54:32] Speaker 4: I think so. I think so. And so I did that.
[54:34] Speaker 3: That's a conversation starter.
[54:36] Speaker 4: And we did. We started a conversation. And we had
[54:39] Speaker 4: a really nice little conversation inside. And then as I
[54:41] Speaker 4: was leaving, I thought, you know, I shouldn't bury the lead.
[54:45] Speaker 4: I should tell her I've been on the show.
[54:47] Speaker 1: Like so many times.
[54:48] Speaker 4: I felt a little bit like a dick, but I
[54:50] Speaker 4: was like, you know, I've done the show. So we
[54:55] Speaker 4: started and that's how we got here, I guess.
[54:58] Speaker 2: I guess. Yeah.
[54:59] Speaker 3: And you're beloved at the coffee shop, everyone.
[55:02] Speaker 4: I love our coffee shop. I love our coffee shop.
[55:05] Speaker 4: It is my morning.
[55:06] Speaker 2: And I met one of your good friends there who
[55:08] Speaker 2: was like, Kelly does everything.
[55:10] Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm with her.
[55:12] Speaker 4: Well, if you stick around long enough, I guess you
[55:15] Speaker 4: get to do a lot of stuff.
[55:17] Speaker 2: And it's cool that you started your SVU journey so
[55:20] Speaker 2: early and then have been coming back throughout the seasons.
[55:25] Speaker 4: It is true. Well, you know, I was on the
[55:27] Speaker 4: first season of The Mothership.
[55:29] Speaker 3: Damn, it was season one?
[55:30] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[55:30] Speaker 3: Yes, you were on the first.
[55:32] Speaker 4: The very first.
[55:33] Speaker 3: Maybe the fourth episode ever of the Law & Order franchise.
[55:37] Speaker 3: That's right.
[55:38] Speaker 4: That's right. That's right.
[55:39] Speaker 3: In the Dick Wolf universe.
[55:41] Speaker 4: In the Dick Wolf universe. Yeah.
[55:44] Speaker 2: And now when they brought you back for this part, Complicated,
[55:47] Speaker 2: or for The Judge, are you auditioning or they're like,
[55:50] Speaker 2: we need to get Kelly back?
[55:51] Speaker 4: I've always auditioned for all of the parts, except The Judge...
[55:56] Speaker 4: role was a really great get because I needed a
[56:00] Speaker 4: job for insurance.
[56:02] Speaker 3: Oh, amazing.
[56:04] Speaker 4: And a friend of a friend reached out and I
[56:06] Speaker 4: don't know exactly how it happened, but there is a
[56:08] Speaker 4: funny story about this. So I've done it twice. I
[56:13] Speaker 4: hope to do more. But on the first time I
[56:16] Speaker 4: did it, I was in the judge's seat and it
[56:19] Speaker 4: was a trial scene, obviously. And Mariska was there And
[56:22] Speaker 4: at some break came up to me and I just said,
[56:24] Speaker 4: thank you so much for helping me to get this
[56:28] Speaker 4: part because it helps me get my health insurance. And
[56:31] Speaker 4: I'm so grateful. And she said to me, of course, absolutely.
[56:36] Speaker 4: We all have to stick together. We have to help
[56:37] Speaker 4: each other. And I was like, I don't know. I
[56:40] Speaker 4: think I said something like, I don't know how I
[56:41] Speaker 4: can repay you for this great thing that you've done.
[56:44] Speaker 4: And she said, well, you know what? Just give me
[56:45] Speaker 4: singing lessons sometime. And I was like, Yeah, okay. And
[56:50] Speaker 4: then when she walked away, I realized that she probably
[56:54] Speaker 4: thought I was the other Kelly O in the entertainment business,
[56:57] Speaker 4: which is Kelly O'Hara.
[57:00] Speaker 3: Oh, who's like a Broadway girl, right?
[57:02] Speaker 4: Yeah, she's a big singer. So I just didn't correct her.
[57:04] Speaker 4: I mean, if she ever listens to this podcast, she'll know,
[57:06] Speaker 4: but it doesn't matter. Kelly O'Hara is actually singing for
[57:11] Speaker 4: my organization, A is for, on Sunday, our gala.
[57:16] Speaker 3: Wait, what is your organization?
[57:17] Speaker 2: It's fantastic.
[57:18] Speaker 4: AS4 is a reproductive justice organization. We amplify art and
[57:24] Speaker 4: artists working to eradicate stigma against abortion. So we do
[57:28] Speaker 4: things like we have a playwriting contest and some comic books.
[57:31] Speaker 4: We do stand-up comedy. I'll keep you posted about that.
[57:36] Speaker 1: I saw that you do all this pro-choice work, and
[57:39] Speaker 1: I was so happy because we have Unfortunately, had to
[57:43] Speaker 1: research some other guests before and found that they're on
[57:46] Speaker 1: the other side of the spectrum and we've had to
[57:47] Speaker 1: cancel the interview. So I was very happy to see
[57:49] Speaker 1: that you're on the right side of the issue.
[57:52] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been a we've been doing this for about
[57:56] Speaker 4: almost 15 years. And, you know, when it started, it
[57:59] Speaker 4: was just a group of artists, you know, a group
[58:02] Speaker 4: of mostly theater folks and TV folks. wanting to do
[58:06] Speaker 4: something and I guess not realizing how it was going
[58:09] Speaker 4: to get so much worse. So we're still at it.
[58:14] Speaker 4: But stigma is a tough thing because it really acts
[58:17] Speaker 4: on people in ways that you don't expect, even for
[58:21] Speaker 4: people who are on the side of wanting abortion to
[58:24] Speaker 4: be safe and legal and accessible. Even something as interesting
[58:28] Speaker 4: as the phrase pro-choice is now not considered exactly correct
[58:33] Speaker 4: because it's not always a choice for some people. They've
[58:35] Speaker 4: need this healthcare to survive, to keep their reproductive function healthy,
[58:42] Speaker 4: to save their lives and their families, things like that.
[58:46] Speaker 4: I know it's not a very It doesn't have to
[58:48] Speaker 4: be not funny, but it's mostly probably not a great
[58:52] Speaker 4: topic for... No, but the bias is important.
[58:55] Speaker 3: We talk about this all the time.
[58:57] Speaker 2: Because, like, I don't know if you watched In Just
[58:59] Speaker 2: Like That, but, like, the discussion that character had of, like, oh,
[59:03] Speaker 2: I don't know what and it's like just having abortion
[59:05] Speaker 2: like why like why is it going backwards from the
[59:08] Speaker 2: original sex in the city this conversation like I can't
[59:11] Speaker 2: even fucking believe it or in girls when she kept
[59:13] Speaker 2: this baby like there is just this thing where even
[59:18] Speaker 2: the people that are pro-abortion are still like somehow in
[59:24] Speaker 2: the art I don't know it's still talked about as
[59:27] Speaker 2: this like difficult decision when it's not a lot of
[59:31] Speaker 2: the times.
[59:32] Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be. I mean, it depends on
[59:33] Speaker 4: the person. It depends on the situation. There's many different
[59:36] Speaker 4: stories about abortions as there are people having them. So,
[59:39] Speaker 4: but I agree, like for plot devices and narratives, it
[59:41] Speaker 4: feels like it's a really easy thing to have a baby.
[59:45] Speaker 3: You know, they.
[59:45] Speaker 4: Love to throw that into the mix. So it just
[59:48] Speaker 4: never seems to be an actual option.
[59:50] Speaker 3: When it makes no sense.
[59:52] Speaker 4: It makes no sense. Like, well, we had sex. Now
[59:54] Speaker 4: I'm pregnant. I guess I have to have a baby.
[59:56] Speaker 4: It just, it's not really, it doesn't, it's not really
[59:59] Speaker 4: vibing with reality in 2026 or ever really, actually.
[1:00:03] Speaker 3: So you.
[1:00:04] Speaker 1: You started, like, on the first episode of regular, original recipe,
[1:00:10] Speaker 1: as I call it sometimes. And then you did an
[1:00:15] Speaker 1: episode in season 10 of SVU. And then this one
[1:00:19] Speaker 1: that we're talking about is, like, your middle episode. Because
[1:00:20] Speaker 1: then these last two episodes you did as a judge
[1:00:22] Speaker 1: were in, like, the 20s. Yes.
[1:00:24] Speaker 4: And I mean, that's an interesting thing to do, to
[1:00:26] Speaker 4: play the judge. Because it's not... You don't really get
[1:00:29] Speaker 4: a lot of attention on set, which is fine with me.
[1:00:32] Speaker 4: But I also feel like that when your coverage comes up, then,
[1:00:36] Speaker 4: you know, it's more nerve wracking in a way. It's
[1:00:38] Speaker 4: really interesting. I was surprised to find that. Yeah, because
[1:00:41] Speaker 4: I haven't had a lot of conversation about like character because,
[1:00:45] Speaker 4: you know, the robe doesn't mostly. And your jaw, you know,
[1:00:49] Speaker 4: your lines are like, I'll allow it.
[1:00:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:00:54] Speaker 4: And that's all you get.
[1:00:54] Speaker 3: Watch yourself.
[1:00:56] Speaker 2: And your judge, it's like a really slick side part,
[1:00:59] Speaker 2: you know? She's a serious gal.
[1:01:01] Speaker 4: You show up and they just do things to you.
[1:01:04] Speaker 4: You don't really get to, like, weigh in on the hairstyle, so.
[1:01:08] Speaker 1: And for our listeners, you are the judge in the
[1:01:10] Speaker 1: episode of the most powerful lifeguard in New York who
[1:01:13] Speaker 1: becomes a.
[1:01:14] Speaker 3: Suspect for sexual, like, assaults. We were.
[1:01:20] Speaker 1: I was very obsessed with how silly that premise was
[1:01:23] Speaker 1: for that episode. Just like that there's this man that's
[1:01:25] Speaker 1: a lifeguard in New York and has that much power.
[1:01:27] Speaker 3: But you never know within these different systems.
[1:01:30] Speaker 2: Was it hard to stay serious on set during his
[1:01:32] Speaker 2: monologue about how no one understands the plight of the lifeguard?
[1:01:37] Speaker 4: I mean, I really just try to be as neutral
[1:01:39] Speaker 4: as possible being the judge, of course. It's only being fair.
[1:01:42] Speaker 2: And you're saying there's not enough character in it. Yeah,
[1:01:46] Speaker 2: you're neutral.
[1:01:46] Speaker 3: No, not necessarily. It depends.
[1:01:48] Speaker 4: I'm just really there to serve the, you know, to
[1:01:52] Speaker 4: flesh out the trial scene. And I don't know.
[1:01:55] Speaker 1: Yeah, because sometimes they'll give the judge like a personality.
[1:01:57] Speaker 1: Like there was a judge that had to recuse himself
[1:01:59] Speaker 1: because they found pictures of him, a weird video of
[1:02:02] Speaker 1: him on his, not of him, a weird video on
[1:02:04] Speaker 1: his phone of a dolphin doing something weird, had to
[1:02:07] Speaker 1: recuse himself. So like there's different, and then there's, we're
[1:02:11] Speaker 1: literally interviewing somebody later today who plays like a, rapist judge,
[1:02:16] Speaker 1: you know?
[1:02:16] Speaker 4: Wow.
[1:02:16] Speaker 3: But, but then there's, there's.
[1:02:19] Speaker 1: And there's so many amazing actors who play the judges,
[1:02:24] Speaker 1: but they don't necessarily give them an angle all the time.
[1:02:26] Speaker 4: That's true.
[1:02:27] Speaker 3: That's true.
[1:02:28] Speaker 4: Jane, how do you show was the judge in this
[1:02:32] Speaker 4: episode that I was in?
[1:02:34] Speaker 3: Yes.
[1:02:35] Speaker 4: Complicated.
[1:02:36] Speaker 3: Complicated.
[1:02:37] Speaker 4: Yes.
[1:02:37] Speaker 3: She's amazing.
[1:02:37] Speaker 2: Also your season 10 episode crush is Swootsie Kurtz.
[1:02:41] Speaker 3: That's right. And she's a.
[1:02:43] Speaker 2: Bad, bad judge. I really loved your makeup in that episode.
[1:02:48] Speaker 2: They really like eye shadowed you and it was fun.
[1:02:51] Speaker 4: Your poor teen daughter. Again, you sit down, you get
[1:02:53] Speaker 4: up at five in the morning.
[1:02:54] Speaker 3: I love it.
[1:02:56] Speaker 4: And you sit down and they just do things to you. Yeah,
[1:03:01] Speaker 4: I have spent a lot of my time in the
[1:03:04] Speaker 4: Dick Wolf universe crying. So when I was offered a judgeship,
[1:03:09] Speaker 4: I got very excited because I thought, hey, I don't
[1:03:12] Speaker 4: have to do that this time. That's great. But then
[1:03:14] Speaker 4: I thought.
[1:03:14] Speaker 3: Hey, but that's a good idea. We have not had
[1:03:16] Speaker 3: a judge cry yet. That would be great.
[1:03:17] Speaker 4: Well, now I'm pitching that. Yeah.
[1:03:19] Speaker 3: Yeah, now I think that's a great pitch.
[1:03:22] Speaker 2: Is crying like it's going to be a tough day?
[1:03:26] Speaker 2: Is this a skill you, you know, you just have it?
[1:03:29] Speaker 3: You got it? I don't know.
[1:03:30] Speaker 4: I think a lot of women who work on television
[1:03:34] Speaker 4: have probably been asked to cry at some point.
[1:03:36] Speaker 3: I have my tears stick. Oh yeah. On my desk. LOL.
[1:03:41] Speaker 4: And, and there have been some hard days. I mean,
[1:03:43] Speaker 4: it's always a tragedy. There's always someone kidnapped or murdered
[1:03:46] Speaker 4: or dead or something. So, or you're on the stand
[1:03:48] Speaker 4: or something. That's my experience anyway. And you know, it's
[1:03:52] Speaker 4: some of those days you spend like a lot of
[1:03:53] Speaker 4: the hours of the day in that state.
[1:03:55] Speaker 3: It's not easy.
[1:03:56] Speaker 4: I mean, I've had headaches.
[1:03:59] Speaker 3: Do you, what's your routine to get in that space?
[1:04:03] Speaker 4: Gosh, I wish I knew.
[1:04:04] Speaker 3: I don't know.
[1:04:05] Speaker 4: Um, I don't know. Just as a thing that comes,
[1:04:09] Speaker 4: it's just, you know, when did you stepping into imaginary circumstances,
[1:04:14] Speaker 4: you know, with complete conviction, I guess.
[1:04:17] Speaker 3: When did you start in the theater arts?
[1:04:20] Speaker 4: Um, I guess high school when I was doing forensic, um,
[1:04:24] Speaker 4: competitions and that's not the same thing as forensic, like
[1:04:27] Speaker 4: for debate, debate, speech and debate, um, had some like, um,
[1:04:33] Speaker 4: acting stuff. And I did a little bit of that.
[1:04:36] Speaker 4: in high school and then realized I liked it and
[1:04:39] Speaker 4: studied theater at Northwestern University and then went out to
[1:04:43] Speaker 4: Los Angeles and did a lot of TV the first
[1:04:45] Speaker 4: year I was out there and then realized I really
[1:04:48] Speaker 4: wanted to set a foundation of theater. So I took
[1:04:51] Speaker 4: myself to New York and then the first play I
[1:04:53] Speaker 4: did was a play at Manhattan Theater Club called The
[1:04:56] Speaker 4: Debutante Ball by Beth Henley. And that was very exciting
[1:05:00] Speaker 4: because I got to work with Carol Kane and Adina
[1:05:04] Speaker 4: Porter was in that and Bruce Norris and people came
[1:05:07] Speaker 4: to see it. Madonna came to see that. I mean,
[1:05:09] Speaker 4: that's just crazy. Wow.
[1:05:11] Speaker 3: Yeah. And that's your first thing.
[1:05:12] Speaker 4: You're like, I guess I'm... How I got my equity card. Yeah. Wow.
[1:05:16] Speaker 3: That's so nuts. And Madonna. And Madonna just did the
[1:05:19] Speaker 3: VMAs the other night. She's still out there.
[1:05:20] Speaker 4: She's still great. I just watched Desperately Seeking Susan the
[1:05:23] Speaker 4: other night. I mean, it's so good.
[1:05:25] Speaker 1: I'm so interested in what it was like on that
[1:05:28] Speaker 1: first episode of Law &.
[1:05:29] Speaker 3: Order you ever did.
[1:05:29] Speaker 1: Oh, the very, very first one? In like 1990, were
[1:05:32] Speaker 1: you like, what is this show?
[1:05:34] Speaker 3: And then now.
[1:05:35] Speaker 1: it, it ran for a million years and then stopped
[1:05:37] Speaker 1: and now it's back. And then SVU has been on
[1:05:39] Speaker 1: for like a thousand years.
[1:05:41] Speaker 4: And it was just, yeah, I think I played like a,
[1:05:43] Speaker 4: I don't, did you, do you, you didn't watch that one?
[1:05:46] Speaker 4: I probably, I didn't watch that one.
[1:05:47] Speaker 3: I'm sorry. We're SVU kind of strict over here.
[1:05:50] Speaker 1: No, no, no, no.
[1:05:51] Speaker 4: That's more than fine. And honestly, I think I had
[1:05:54] Speaker 4: like one or two like tiny little scenes and I
[1:05:56] Speaker 4: played a girl in a sheet. Like, I think it's a,
[1:06:01] Speaker 4: George Zunza and Chris Nose come to investigate something at
[1:06:05] Speaker 4: an apartment, and I answered the door in a sheet
[1:06:08] Speaker 4: as if I've just been having sex. And I think
[1:06:10] Speaker 4: my line was something, what are you guys, the sex police?
[1:06:12] Speaker 4: Because they come back the next time. Honestly, I'm pretty
[1:06:16] Speaker 4: sure that I just delivered that line better now than
[1:06:18] Speaker 4: I did when I was doing the show.
[1:06:19] Speaker 1: Wait, but did you know that they think they almost
[1:06:21] Speaker 1: called SVU sex police?
[1:06:23] Speaker 3: Oh, really?
[1:06:24] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:06:25] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:06:25] Speaker 3: Oh, interesting.
[1:06:26] Speaker 1: They almost called it that. And then they were like,
[1:06:28] Speaker 1: that's probably like a little aggressive.
[1:06:30] Speaker 3: And then they didn't.
[1:06:31] Speaker 4: I think that they made the right choice.
[1:06:32] Speaker 2: That's a lyric in a Backstreet Boys song. What are you,
[1:06:36] Speaker 2: the sex police? So that's really crazy. I mean, it's probably,
[1:06:41] Speaker 2: probably around in a lot of ways.
[1:06:43] Speaker 4: In our, in our history.
[1:06:45] Speaker 3: And when you said sheet, I'm like, oh, obviously a
[1:06:47] Speaker 3: dead body under a sheet, but like.
[1:06:50] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
[1:06:50] Speaker 4: No, no.
[1:06:51] Speaker 3: Wearing the bed sheet. Sexy sheet.
[1:06:53] Speaker 4: Coming to the doorway. standing in the doorway with tousled
[1:06:57] Speaker 4: and teased hair. I haven't seen it in a while,
[1:07:01] Speaker 4: but yeah, it's probably a little grainy too when you
[1:07:04] Speaker 4: look at it.
[1:07:05] Speaker 3: How was working with your family and complicated?
[1:07:08] Speaker 1: Oh, they were great.
[1:07:11] Speaker 4: They were all great. Paul was really nice. I remember
[1:07:14] Speaker 4: his name is Paul, I believe. And because I watched
[1:07:18] Speaker 4: it last night and I thought, oh yeah, I remember
[1:07:19] Speaker 4: all this. This was great. Yeah.
[1:07:21] Speaker 3: What else do you remember? Tell us everything.
[1:07:24] Speaker 4: What do I remember? I remember that, well, speaking of plays,
[1:07:29] Speaker 4: that Mariska's husband, Peter Herman, and I knew each other
[1:07:31] Speaker 4: because we did a play together years ago on Broadway
[1:07:35] Speaker 4: called Judgment at Nuremberg.
[1:07:38] Speaker 3: Whoa, okay, so like a light comedy.
[1:07:40] Speaker 4: Like a light comedy.
[1:07:41] Speaker 3: A light, just like fun, rom-com-y.
[1:07:43] Speaker 4: A little ditty, a little jaunt. Wow, wow. And then
[1:07:49] Speaker 4: that was before he'd even met Mariska, I think. So
[1:07:51] Speaker 4: then I remembered when he met her. And we weren't
[1:07:54] Speaker 4: close friends. We're not close friends, but we were friendly.
[1:07:57] Speaker 4: And then, you know, very excited to see that they'd
[1:07:59] Speaker 4: gotten together and then started a family and all that.
[1:08:01] Speaker 4: So that day, I do remember, or one of the
[1:08:04] Speaker 4: days that I was working, he was on set. And
[1:08:05] Speaker 4: it was just, it was nice to see him. And
[1:08:07] Speaker 4: I felt, you know, put at ease a little bit
[1:08:09] Speaker 4: because when you know somebody on the set, it just
[1:08:12] Speaker 4: makes it a little bit more... Coming in as a
[1:08:15] Speaker 4: guest is always a little... jarring because you're coming into
[1:08:20] Speaker 4: a situation where people are, are already familiar, right? You're
[1:08:24] Speaker 4: the crew's very familiar. Obviously the, the regular cast members
[1:08:27] Speaker 4: are really familiar and there's a, there's a way of
[1:08:31] Speaker 4: working that they all understand in a shorthand and it's, it's,
[1:08:34] Speaker 4: it's a successful show. So it's, it's, you know, it's well-staffed,
[1:08:38] Speaker 4: it's well-run and, and every, it's kind of a machine
[1:08:42] Speaker 4: that runs well. And so you're stepping in as a
[1:08:44] Speaker 4: new person it's always getting used to and getting everybody's
[1:08:49] Speaker 4: name and it's a little nervous and you have to
[1:08:51] Speaker 4: do your job and you want to do it well.
[1:08:52] Speaker 4: So there are nerves. So it was nice to see
[1:08:55] Speaker 4: Peter and he's a nice person. So everybody's nice on
[1:08:58] Speaker 4: the show.
[1:08:59] Speaker 2: And then when, you see Mariska, the detective, are you like, oh,
[1:09:02] Speaker 2: I was here before you just kind of get to work?
[1:09:05] Speaker 4: Um, she's, she's always very nice to me. I think
[1:09:08] Speaker 4: she does know who I am, by the way, but
[1:09:10] Speaker 4: I've done a few of these, but, um, it was just,
[1:09:12] Speaker 4: that was a funny story. Cause I mean, who can,
[1:09:14] Speaker 4: but she's done 600 episodes of his show. She can't,
[1:09:17] Speaker 4: people cannot expect her to remember every person and every
[1:09:22] Speaker 4: episode or how she knows people. That must be a
[1:09:24] Speaker 4: crazy experience. I can't only imagine what that would be like. Um,
[1:09:29] Speaker 4: but no, she's lovely. She's a lovely person too.
[1:09:32] Speaker 3: Yeah, we hear good things.
[1:09:33] Speaker 2: Also hopping around, you got to watch Peter Scanavino kind of. Yes.
[1:09:39] Speaker 3: How hot is he?
[1:09:41] Speaker 4: He's great at his job. Like, this is one of
[1:09:43] Speaker 4: the things I remember when we were actually, speaking of
[1:09:46] Speaker 4: being a judge, on my coverage, I may have flubbed
[1:09:51] Speaker 4: a line or I didn't say it right or I
[1:09:53] Speaker 4: wanted a second take. And he just was right on, like,
[1:09:56] Speaker 4: didn't stop cameras rolling and, like, sent me the cue
[1:09:59] Speaker 4: line again without thinking twice. And I don't know, I
[1:10:02] Speaker 4: could tell like he was just getting it done because
[1:10:04] Speaker 4: he was very practiced at that. Those trial scenes are
[1:10:10] Speaker 4: hard because you cover a lot of things so that
[1:10:12] Speaker 4: you have to do the scene so many times and
[1:10:14] Speaker 4: it can get, it can get, it's, it's, it's work.
[1:10:17] Speaker 4: You know, it can get a little tedious because there's
[1:10:19] Speaker 4: a lot of detailing in a big scene, like a
[1:10:22] Speaker 4: trial scene. So I did it. I did a soap
[1:10:25] Speaker 4: opera once. I mean, I, I don't feel like I,
[1:10:28] Speaker 4: I should be in the soap opera universe for some reason.
[1:10:30] Speaker 4: But I, like years ago, got this job on Guiding
[1:10:34] Speaker 4: Light and did like, I don't know. I was a
[1:10:37] Speaker 4: stripper who was also in the Royal Wedding. It was
[1:10:39] Speaker 4: such a funny thing. But I used to joke that,
[1:10:44] Speaker 4: you know, we got half a take. They do not
[1:10:46] Speaker 4: wait for you.
[1:10:47] Speaker 3: They're not messing around.
[1:10:49] Speaker 4: They're not messing around. But yes, and network TV, like
[1:10:54] Speaker 4: something like SVU, it's very well-oiled machine. So they know
[1:10:57] Speaker 4: what they're doing. They know how to get their coverage.
[1:10:59] Speaker 4: They do it quickly. And that's that.
[1:11:01] Speaker 2: Well, I always love talking to people that were like,
[1:11:07] Speaker 2: I romanticize the era in my head of like, late 90s,
[1:11:12] Speaker 2: 2000s in New York where it was like Sopranos, ah,
[1:11:15] Speaker 2: Sex and the City, just like pay phones, calling your agent,
[1:11:18] Speaker 2: printing the scripts, running around.
[1:11:21] Speaker 3: Oh, I miss it.
[1:11:23] Speaker 2: Like seeing people in a room being like, oh, not
[1:11:25] Speaker 2: these people again. Or they, she always gets these parts
[1:11:27] Speaker 2: or like, or, oh, that's my friend. Like I, um, yeah,
[1:11:32] Speaker 2: I like romanticize that era.
[1:11:35] Speaker 4: I mean, having lived through it, I can tell you
[1:11:37] Speaker 4: you're not wrong. It was great. I feel like we
[1:11:40] Speaker 4: had a really wonderful ecosystem that I'm really sort of
[1:11:43] Speaker 4: worried that is maybe dying now because we're siloed away.
[1:11:47] Speaker 4: I mean, I sort of told myself as I was
[1:11:49] Speaker 4: getting ready for this podcast, well, at least I don't
[1:11:51] Speaker 4: have to slate when I'm done.
[1:11:54] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:11:56] Speaker 3: But I see your blue screen.
[1:11:57] Speaker 2: I need to get a blue screen. I need to
[1:11:59] Speaker 2: be more professional. I started taping against the door and
[1:12:02] Speaker 2: I actually have like an SVU thing hanging on my
[1:12:04] Speaker 2: door that I have to take down.
[1:12:06] Speaker 3: To do it.
[1:12:07] Speaker 2: But New York apartments are so tough to like figure
[1:12:10] Speaker 2: out a space because I have this brick wall. I
[1:12:12] Speaker 2: have these cabinets and I don't, yeah, I have to
[1:12:15] Speaker 2: like buy one of these blue screens.
[1:12:16] Speaker 3: I mean, it's, it.
[1:12:18] Speaker 4: Pros cons, but yeah, it's, We're all tech people now.
[1:12:21] Speaker 4: We're all making, like, you know, little mini movies every week.
[1:12:25] Speaker 4: I know.
[1:12:25] Speaker 3: Everybody's responsible.
[1:12:26] Speaker 2: Not even the acting and being in the rooms together
[1:12:28] Speaker 2: and being around each other. And, like, also on sets
[1:12:30] Speaker 2: when people are on their phones. But with comedy, Stavros,
[1:12:34] Speaker 2: this comedian, was saying, like, after open mics or shows,
[1:12:36] Speaker 2: we would all hang out.
[1:12:38] Speaker 3: There was a scene.
[1:12:38] Speaker 2: And now it's like all these people have other jobs
[1:12:42] Speaker 2: in terms of, like, editing their clips and posting online
[1:12:44] Speaker 2: and doing these videos. And it takes away from... what's
[1:12:49] Speaker 2: supposed to be a human, live, communal kind of situation.
[1:12:53] Speaker 3: It's a bummer.
[1:12:54] Speaker 4: Yeah, I do worry, like, the humanity is getting sucked
[1:12:57] Speaker 4: out of it all a little bit.
[1:12:59] Speaker 1: Just... Yeah, because it's... People, like, we've heard so many
[1:13:03] Speaker 1: people say, oh, I used to always run into... I
[1:13:04] Speaker 1: have friends that I made. Like, I became friends with
[1:13:07] Speaker 1: Abby and Alana from Broad City because we had the
[1:13:09] Speaker 1: same commercial agents and we'd always be in the same
[1:13:11] Speaker 1: room together in the waiting room. And we started, like,
[1:13:14] Speaker 1: talking and now we're, you know, like, so... that whole
[1:13:17] Speaker 1: connections like thing is gone.
[1:13:20] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:13:20] Speaker 4: You have conversations, you see people, you, you might even say,
[1:13:23] Speaker 4: see somebody who's got a show that night. You say, Hey,
[1:13:26] Speaker 4: I don't have anything going on. I'm going to come
[1:13:27] Speaker 4: see it.
[1:13:28] Speaker 1: And then you go see the show and you.
[1:13:31] Speaker 4: Get other jobs from just being in the waiting room.
[1:13:33] Speaker 4: I don't know. And there was just something about the
[1:13:35] Speaker 4: process of also getting work. And I know that every
[1:13:40] Speaker 4: way of doing it is going to advantage and then
[1:13:43] Speaker 4: disadvantage somebody. So I'm not enjoying the self-tape experience. I
[1:13:49] Speaker 4: think I do a better job when I'm in collaboration
[1:13:53] Speaker 4: with somebody, a director or a casting director who's talking
[1:13:56] Speaker 4: to me and said, you know, do it better or
[1:13:59] Speaker 4: do it different or don't forget this is funny or
[1:14:02] Speaker 4: don't forget that your mother killed your dad or whatever
[1:14:05] Speaker 4: the note is. And I'll be like, yeah, yeah, I
[1:14:06] Speaker 4: got you. And then do it, you know, get to
[1:14:09] Speaker 4: make that adjustment. And I always felt like that kind
[1:14:12] Speaker 4: of interaction for me was the winning thing, you know?
[1:14:17] Speaker 4: And I don't have that experience anymore because now with
[1:14:19] Speaker 4: the self-tapes, the thing is you're not only asked to
[1:14:22] Speaker 4: do the scene alone or, you know, you get your
[1:14:25] Speaker 4: friend to read with you or whatever, but you're asked
[1:14:27] Speaker 4: to sort of intuit whatever direction might be given to you.
[1:14:32] Speaker 4: I mean, it's not just me acting. It's my first
[1:14:35] Speaker 4: stab at an idea that I'm making up based on
[1:14:39] Speaker 4: what you've given, the material you've given me, which could
[1:14:41] Speaker 4: be wildly wrong. You know, or just not what they're
[1:14:45] Speaker 4: thinking or not what they want. I don't know how
[1:14:47] Speaker 4: people make decisions anymore. I don't know if they're actually
[1:14:50] Speaker 4: watching all the tapes. I don't know. There's no way
[1:14:52] Speaker 4: to know. There's no feedback.
[1:14:53] Speaker 3: I was going to say, there's also no feedback.
[1:14:56] Speaker 2: I'm always telling my agents, I'm like, it's fine if
[1:14:57] Speaker 2: I don't get stuff or I don't get a call.
[1:14:59] Speaker 2: I'm like, can I just get just a note, just
[1:15:02] Speaker 2: some feedback or like what it was?
[1:15:04] Speaker 3: Like, you know, I just want to know.
[1:15:07] Speaker 4: Well, it feels a little demoralizing if, I mean, because
[1:15:10] Speaker 4: if you think about it, everybody who auditioned in the
[1:15:13] Speaker 4: old way, had an interaction with the people making the thing, right?
[1:15:17] Speaker 4: So they could have a good experience. They could have
[1:15:20] Speaker 4: a good day. They did good work. They knew it.
[1:15:22] Speaker 4: They met someone new in person. They said hello to
[1:15:25] Speaker 4: their friends. They went to coffee.
[1:15:27] Speaker 3: They had a drink.
[1:15:28] Speaker 4: They went to see a show, something like that. So
[1:15:31] Speaker 4: it feels like you've done something in your day as
[1:15:35] Speaker 4: an actor, irrespective of whether or not you get the part.
[1:15:38] Speaker 4: Because if, let's say, conservatively 50 people We're up for
[1:15:45] Speaker 4: this role. Only one person is going to get the
[1:15:48] Speaker 4: call to say they booked it. Only one.
[1:15:50] Speaker 3: Right.
[1:15:51] Speaker 4: And so now that one person who books the job
[1:15:55] Speaker 4: out of how many ever hundreds of tapes are sent
[1:15:57] Speaker 4: in gets the feedback. But that means, you know, the
[1:16:01] Speaker 4: other 99 don't.
[1:16:05] Speaker 2: And so statistically, just even statistically.
[1:16:09] Speaker 4: it's really rough because you are expending a lot of
[1:16:12] Speaker 4: energy to make short films and to reach out and
[1:16:15] Speaker 4: do creative stuff with zero fee. I just think that's
[1:16:19] Speaker 4: a really difficult, psychologically, a difficult place to be. Like
[1:16:23] Speaker 4: there's no sort of great job at the casting director.
[1:16:25] Speaker 4: I really like that. Or I don't know if it's
[1:16:27] Speaker 4: going to go this way because they're looking for this,
[1:16:29] Speaker 4: but I really like that. And by the way, we
[1:16:31] Speaker 4: have another thing we want to bring you in for.
[1:16:32] Speaker 4: All of that stuff served as a way to keep
[1:16:35] Speaker 4: you buoyed and keep on keeping on. And if we
[1:16:38] Speaker 4: don't protect the ecosystem of the actors who fill in
[1:16:41] Speaker 4: all these little parts everywhere, I mean, it's just going
[1:16:43] Speaker 4: to be Nicole Kidman.
[1:16:44] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:16:46] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:16:46] Speaker 3: Who I love. TV. It was great.
[1:16:48] Speaker 4: But like, I think she needs to, you know, have
[1:16:50] Speaker 4: other actors around her too.
[1:16:54] Speaker 3: We would be, okay. I also, you were on Growing Pains. Sorry.
[1:16:57] Speaker 2: You have to tell us.
[1:16:58] Speaker 3: You have to tell us about that.
[1:16:59] Speaker 4: It was fun. I mean, that was a, it was
[1:17:01] Speaker 4: a very special Growing Pains. I played a suicidal teenager
[1:17:05] Speaker 4: and it was an episode of just me and Alan Thicke.
[1:17:09] Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
[1:17:09] Speaker 3: Were you one of his patients?
[1:17:11] Speaker 1: Yes.
[1:17:11] Speaker 4: I'm a friend of Mike's and I come by and
[1:17:15] Speaker 4: I was smoking in the episode. It was a very serious. Yeah.
[1:17:19] Speaker 4: It was a very, very special.
[1:17:20] Speaker 3: A clear sign of a troubled kid. Yeah.
[1:17:22] Speaker 4: I was, I was searching for help because I was feeling,
[1:17:25] Speaker 4: I was feeling suicidal is the episode. Yeah. And so
[1:17:29] Speaker 4: it was just like this mini play between me and
[1:17:32] Speaker 4: Ellen Thicke and he was very Very sweet. Very nice.
[1:17:35] Speaker 2: Outside of, because I think, I don't know when this
[1:17:38] Speaker 2: will come out, but I think the AS4 event will
[1:17:42] Speaker 2: have passed.
[1:17:43] Speaker 4: Yes, because that's Sunday.
[1:17:45] Speaker 2: Is there anything else that you're working on or excited
[1:17:49] Speaker 2: about or people could check out or find?
[1:17:53] Speaker 4: I don't have much to report at the moment as
[1:17:56] Speaker 4: far as things coming out. I mean, I've been doing
[1:17:59] Speaker 4: some writing and so I'm excited about Getting my own
[1:18:02] Speaker 4: plays out there.
[1:18:03] Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking to us.
[1:18:06] Speaker 3: This was awesome.
[1:18:07] Speaker 4: My pleasure.
[1:18:09] Speaker 1: You're really the opposite of a hysterical mom in real life.
[1:18:12] Speaker 1: And I felt you did a great job in this
[1:18:14] Speaker 1: episode because I really felt bad for you.
[1:18:16] Speaker 3: You were like the only one that was in the dark.
[1:18:18] Speaker 1: You were like, like you just wanted a little bit
[1:18:21] Speaker 1: of hope.
[1:18:21] Speaker 4: She really gets a bad deal, doesn't she?
[1:18:24] Speaker 2: No, it was devastating when you're like, my life was
[1:18:27] Speaker 2: better when I didn't know. So not only is your
[1:18:29] Speaker 2: daughter missing, you had hope that she was alive. And
[1:18:32] Speaker 2: then you had a husband and son and now there's,
[1:18:36] Speaker 2: we came up with the thing that maybe you adopted
[1:18:40] Speaker 2: the girl, the.
[1:18:41] Speaker 4: Teen girl that needs help. Even at least they're being honest.
[1:18:45] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:18:46] Speaker 4: Living together, but honestly, yeah who knows yeah yeah um
[1:18:51] Speaker 4: thank you guys for inviting me this was a lot
[1:18:52] Speaker 4: of fun it was.
[1:18:53] Speaker 3: Thank you see you soon down yeah.
[1:18:55] Speaker 1: Probably tomorrow yeah oh my gosh have you seen her
[1:19:02] Speaker 1: since we talked.
[1:19:03] Speaker 2: To her no but i did um alice and liby
[1:19:07] Speaker 2: um sent a book over for the AS4 event.
[1:19:11] Speaker 3: Oh, cool.
[1:19:12] Speaker 2: And so since I saw her, she asked me to
[1:19:13] Speaker 2: drop off the book since it's right around the corner.
[1:19:16] Speaker 2: So I did a drop off, but no, I don't know.
[1:19:21] Speaker 3: It's exciting.
[1:19:22] Speaker 2: I can't wait to see her at the coffee shop.
[1:19:23] Speaker 2: I mean, I told everyone that works at the coffee
[1:19:24] Speaker 2: shop that it's going to be her and they, you know,
[1:19:26] Speaker 2: everyone was very excited, obviously.
[1:19:28] Speaker 3: Oh, nice.
[1:19:29] Speaker 2: The coffee shop. Wait, I've talked about the new hot guy.
[1:19:32] Speaker 2: So there's like a new very, very, very hot guy.
[1:19:35] Speaker 2: And he's so sweet. And then I went in there
[1:19:37] Speaker 2: and his mom came in and his mom was like... Wait,
[1:19:39] Speaker 2: a worker or a customer?
[1:19:41] Speaker 3: A worker. So we have a new barista.
[1:19:43] Speaker 2: He's like so hot and nice and just like a
[1:19:46] Speaker 2: joy to look at his face. And then his mom
[1:19:50] Speaker 2: came in and was like there to visit. And she
[1:19:52] Speaker 2: was like saying hi to everyone and learning everyone's name
[1:19:55] Speaker 2: and being like a doll. And then the next day
[1:19:57] Speaker 2: I saw him and I was like, oh my God,
[1:19:59] Speaker 2: that was so fun that your mom came in like
[1:20:02] Speaker 2: so cute. And he held his hands to his heart
[1:20:06] Speaker 2: and he went, I don't know what I did to
[1:20:08] Speaker 2: get so lucky. Like.
[1:20:13] Speaker 3: She is... Casey hates it. Casey hates it.
[1:20:17] Speaker 2: I mean, this guy, like, there's no way he is
[1:20:19] Speaker 2: not just, like, killing it out in the world.
[1:20:21] Speaker 3: Like, so sweet to his mom.
[1:20:22] Speaker 1: Aw.
[1:20:24] Speaker 3: He's so nice. I love that. Oh, my God. You're...
[1:20:28] Speaker 3: Coffee shop is like, cheers. It's really wild. It really is.
[1:20:32] Speaker 2: Someone's emailing me their short film. And then, so yeah,
[1:20:34] Speaker 2: so I definitely was telling everyone, I'm like, Kelly's.
[1:20:36] Speaker 3: Doing the podcast.
[1:20:38] Speaker 2: So they were really, really pumped about that. Well, because
[1:20:42] Speaker 2: I guess someone in my building has photographed Mariska.
[1:20:46] Speaker 3: Like, I got that gossip. Like, someone's a photographer in
[1:20:49] Speaker 3: the building.
[1:20:50] Speaker 1: But I, yeah, I love talking to Kelly.
[1:20:55] Speaker 3: It was, she... She's great in this episode.
[1:20:58] Speaker 1: I can't believe there's so many episodes about people trying
[1:21:00] Speaker 1: to integrate into families that aren't their own after having.
[1:21:03] Speaker 3: A traumatic life.
[1:21:06] Speaker 1: But.
[1:21:06] Speaker 2: And then also those people ending up being killed by
[1:21:09] Speaker 2: their brothers.
[1:21:12] Speaker 1: We have a guest coming up who is in this
[1:21:17] Speaker 1: new Peacock Netflix... JonBenet Ramsey miniseries with Melissa McCarthy playing
[1:21:24] Speaker 1: the mom that I'm like inappropriately excited for. And then
[1:21:29] Speaker 1: this episode just happens to, it just goes to show.
[1:21:32] Speaker 3: You how, you know, ingrained in our culture, the.
[1:21:36] Speaker 2: I am curious, like, because I think, because to me
[1:21:39] Speaker 2: it's like Jean Benet and then O.J. are kind of
[1:21:43] Speaker 2: like the big figures of crime 90s.
[1:21:45] Speaker 3: Yeah. And I want, but I feel like O.J.
[1:21:49] Speaker 2: Had, he kept coming back up, but like, I wonder
[1:21:52] Speaker 2: which had the bigger impact, like, or I want, I'm
[1:21:57] Speaker 2: curious what had more screen time and effect during that time.
[1:22:03] Speaker 3: I think probably OJ.
[1:22:04] Speaker 1: Just because he was still alive and clearly... Like, I
[1:22:09] Speaker 1: probably can't say clearly, but, like, allegedly the perpetrator.
[1:22:13] Speaker 3: Like, I didn't do it, but if I did, or whatever.
[1:22:15] Speaker 1: But, like, Jean Benet is, like, just a mystery, which
[1:22:18] Speaker 1: is why it just has more life. It keeps coming up, like, forever,
[1:22:22] Speaker 1: you know? Like, they did the O.J. They did the O.J.
[1:22:25] Speaker 1: Was it A Law and Order? Or it was, like,
[1:22:26] Speaker 1: some mini... It was, like, a mini-series that they did.
[1:22:29] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:22:30] Speaker 1: Crime Story or whatever. You know, like, eight years ago
[1:22:32] Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, American Crime Story or whatever. But, like,
[1:22:35] Speaker 1: the Jean Benet, I think, is just, like, gonna keep
[1:22:39] Speaker 1: being in our lives until.
[1:22:41] Speaker 3: There's fucking closure on it, which there probably never will be.
[1:22:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, because then once I started saying that, it's like, obviously,
[1:22:49] Speaker 2: Rodney King came to mind. The Oklahoma City bombing came
[1:22:52] Speaker 2: to mind. It was like these big crimes.
[1:22:57] Speaker 1: I think OJ definitely was a bigger story than JonBenet
[1:23:01] Speaker 1: at the time. But JonBenet endures because people are, like,
[1:23:04] Speaker 1: obsessed with.
[1:23:05] Speaker 3: The mystery of it. But.
[1:23:08] Speaker 2: And in both the cases, the cops fucked up the investigation.
[1:23:14] Speaker 1: I mean, like, they rolled a TV into our rooms
[1:23:17] Speaker 1: for the verdict of OJ in high school.
[1:23:20] Speaker 3: You know, like, we were in the hallway. People were
[1:23:22] Speaker 3: in the hallway yelling, the juice is loose. I mean, like,
[1:23:24] Speaker 3: that was a... JonBenet's not.
[1:23:28] Speaker 1: close as close to that but but maybe it's also like.
[1:23:31] Speaker 2: It's less parodying since it's a dead child because also
[1:23:35] Speaker 2: like with you mentioned the juice is loose and I
[1:23:37] Speaker 2: started laughing and then it's also like the Simpsons did
[1:23:40] Speaker 2: OJ stuff Seinfeld had like a Kramer Seinfeld like like
[1:23:45] Speaker 2: a Kramer OJ moment.
[1:23:48] Speaker 1: Was like a rumor that she's Katy Perry like yeah
[1:23:51] Speaker 1: she didn't get the same.
[1:23:51] Speaker 2: Well you don't want to make fun of a dead
[1:23:53] Speaker 2: child like there was references I'm sure like but like
[1:23:58] Speaker 2: There was more, but there's a dead woman with OJ.
[1:24:02] Speaker 2: But for some reason, like OJ, you know, it really
[1:24:05] Speaker 2: could be like more late night jokes, I guess, or
[1:24:09] Speaker 2: something like that. Yeah.
[1:24:11] Speaker 3: And the chase.
[1:24:11] Speaker 1: I mean, there was like a lot of things that
[1:24:13] Speaker 1: were gripping.
[1:24:15] Speaker 3: The Bronco. Yeah.
[1:24:17] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:24:17] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:24:19] Speaker 2: Oh, I guess the book, Princess Diana's brother wrote a
[1:24:23] Speaker 2: book and my friend is so into it. I'm not really,
[1:24:26] Speaker 2: I'm not going to do it. But he's like pissed
[1:24:29] Speaker 2: and letting loose.
[1:24:31] Speaker 3: If we're talking loose.
[1:24:32] Speaker 2: I heard he was just going for the royal family
[1:24:34] Speaker 2: so hard, releasing so much information and there's nothing they
[1:24:38] Speaker 2: can do because it's all true.
[1:24:39] Speaker 3: So it's not like you could sue them.
[1:24:41] Speaker 2: But he's straight up is like being rude, revealing secrets,
[1:24:44] Speaker 2: being like, go fuck your, go fuck all of you.
[1:24:47] Speaker 2: I wonder what took him so long. He wanted it for,
[1:24:50] Speaker 2: I guess what pissed him off is I guess the
[1:24:55] Speaker 2: serialized fictional show, like The Crown, he didn't like that
[1:25:00] Speaker 2: they showed Prince Charles being upset because he wasn't.
[1:25:04] Speaker 3: They were happy she was dead.
[1:25:06] Speaker 2: And then there was an interview where he said something like,
[1:25:10] Speaker 2: they'll forget about her soon enough or like soon people
[1:25:13] Speaker 2: will forget about her.
[1:25:14] Speaker 3: And he's like, no.
[1:25:16] Speaker 2: But I think what sparked him was that they showed
[1:25:20] Speaker 2: Charles and the family being sad. Princess Diana was dead.
[1:25:23] Speaker 2: And he says, absolutely not. They were very happy she
[1:25:27] Speaker 2: was dead.
[1:25:28] Speaker 3: Dang.
[1:25:29] Speaker 2: And that he hated that people loved her and that
[1:25:31] Speaker 2: she was popular.
[1:25:32] Speaker 3: They hated that.
[1:25:34] Speaker 1: I don't really follow this stuff, but like, and didn't
[1:25:36] Speaker 1: Meghan Markle and Harry like move back? Like did they,
[1:25:39] Speaker 1: they left California and they're back in England now? They, oh,
[1:25:42] Speaker 1: and I guess there's stuff about the funeral.
[1:25:44] Speaker 3: Um, they are back. I don't know what they're doing
[1:25:46] Speaker 3: or working. I have no idea. I have no idea.
[1:25:49] Speaker 1: Yeah. I think they went, yeah, they went back in
[1:25:51] Speaker 1: August at the end of the summer. So like a
[1:25:53] Speaker 1: month or two ago, they left California to go to
[1:25:58] Speaker 1: the Cotswolds outside of London and Um, interesting.
[1:26:02] Speaker 3: Interesting. And they're not resuming their royal roles. They're private citizens.
[1:26:07] Speaker 2: Like, I guess, what are my friends say? Like Camilla
[1:26:10] Speaker 2: wanted to do something and Prince William like said, absolutely not.
[1:26:13] Speaker 2: Like they still miss their mom. Yeah. I don't know.
[1:26:16] Speaker 2: But I guess the book is really good if you're
[1:26:18] Speaker 2: in the royal journey.
[1:26:20] Speaker 3: You know, that's not where I stay, but I guess
[1:26:24] Speaker 3: it's like a biting. Yeah.
[1:26:26] Speaker 1: Yeah. are we going to do JonBenet ever on this podcast?
[1:26:29] Speaker 3: No, I don't. That's what I was saying.
[1:26:31] Speaker 1: Well, the thing that's so interesting to me is that
[1:26:34] Speaker 1: the theory about it being the little brother really didn't
[1:26:37] Speaker 1: come out until like the 2010s or at least like
[1:26:40] Speaker 1: in mainstream. where because they realized that the evidence they had,
[1:26:45] Speaker 1: there was like DNA in her underwear, but then they
[1:26:47] Speaker 1: realized it was like DNA from like the factory in
[1:26:49] Speaker 1: Taiwan where the underwear was made. Like it was probably
[1:26:52] Speaker 1: just like a worker's sweat. And so like there is
[1:26:55] Speaker 1: no mystery DNA, like and there was no sexual aspect
[1:27:00] Speaker 1: to the murder. And I think that's like when it
[1:27:03] Speaker 1: started all twisting towards her.
[1:27:05] Speaker 2: I also wonder if she wasn't a beauty queen if
[1:27:08] Speaker 2: we would have ever even heard of the case either.
[1:27:10] Speaker 1: No.
[1:27:13] Speaker 3: Okay. No.
[1:27:14] Speaker 1: I swear. I mean, maybe, like, sure, locally, there would
[1:27:17] Speaker 1: have been, like, some news, but it would not have
[1:27:18] Speaker 1: gotten to the level that it is if there weren't
[1:27:20] Speaker 1: those wild pictures of her at five years old with
[1:27:22] Speaker 1: her face painted for filth, like, with a fucking pile
[1:27:25] Speaker 1: of extensions on her head and a crown, you know? Like,
[1:27:28] Speaker 1: that's the kind of shit that people are like, I'm
[1:27:31] Speaker 1: paying attention. But also, the ransom, all the things are weird. Like,
[1:27:37] Speaker 1: nothing lines up. Patsy dies. He starts dating Natalie Holloway's mother.
[1:27:42] Speaker 3: It's like a lot.
[1:27:43] Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot. There's a lot to that one.
[1:27:46] Speaker 1: I'll be doing episode by episode reports of this Melissa
[1:27:50] Speaker 1: McCarthy thing. Like, I cannot wait to watch that. Yes,
[1:27:53] Speaker 1: we will.
[1:27:53] Speaker 3: I cannot wait.
[1:27:54] Speaker 1: Especially because we heard that there was like, you know,
[1:27:57] Speaker 1: the family obviously had some like legal issues with, and
[1:28:00] Speaker 1: they've had to change some of it. So I'm interested
[1:28:02] Speaker 1: to see how like whitewashed it is against anything that
[1:28:05] Speaker 1: the family could have involved in anything.
[1:28:07] Speaker 3: But, All right.
[1:28:09] Speaker 1: Should we move on to our... What would Sister Peg
[1:28:13] Speaker 1: do for this week? This is our weekly segment where
[1:28:15] Speaker 1: we direct you to an organization, a book, a documentary,
[1:28:19] Speaker 1: an article, something to give you more info about what
[1:28:20] Speaker 1: we talked about in today's episode. And this is not
[1:28:23] Speaker 1: related really to the plot, but we wanted to point
[1:28:25] Speaker 1: you to the organization that our guest Kelly Overby works with,
[1:28:28] Speaker 1: which is called A is For. And it's an organization that, quote,
[1:28:32] Speaker 1: amplifies art and artists that work to end the stigma
[1:28:35] Speaker 1: against abortion. Obviously, Lisa and I, very, very pro-choice, pro-abortion. Pro-abortion.
[1:28:43] Speaker 1: And they recently had their 10th annual Broadway Acts for Abortion,
[1:28:47] Speaker 1: which raises critical funds and awareness about reproductive justice. Since 2014,
[1:28:52] Speaker 1: they've donated more than $ 309, 000 to abortion and healthcare clinics,
[1:28:57] Speaker 1: abortion funds, and other grassroots organizations. that are leading the
[1:29:00] Speaker 1: fight to defend or expand reproductive rights in the courts
[1:29:03] Speaker 1: and among the public. So get on over to as4. org
[1:29:08] Speaker 1: to donate and learn more about what they do. And
[1:29:10] Speaker 1: we will post that, obviously, that link in our show
[1:29:13] Speaker 1: notes as always. And that goes up as a story
[1:29:15] Speaker 1: on our Instagram, which is thatsmesseduppod the day of the
[1:29:18] Speaker 1: show release. And then it gets saved forever in our
[1:29:21] Speaker 1: WWSPD highlights.
[1:29:23] Speaker 3: Thank you so much for that.
[1:29:24] Speaker 2: And next week, we will be doing The Long Arm
[1:29:27] Speaker 2: of the Witness. Season 22, episode six. Obviously, that's a
[1:29:32] Speaker 2: war in light.
[1:29:33] Speaker 3: Okay. See you next week.
[1:29:36] Speaker 1: Bye, guys.
[1:29:37] Speaker 3: See you next week.
[1:29:46] Speaker 2: That's Messed Up is an Exactly Right production.
[1:29:48] Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
[1:29:50] Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
[1:29:53] Speaker 1: at thatsmesseduppod at gmail.com. Listen to That's Messed Up on
[1:29:57] Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[1:30:01] Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at thatsmesseduppod and follow us
[1:30:05] Speaker 2: personally at Cara Clank and at Glitter Cheese.
[1:30:08] Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
[1:30:11] Speaker 1: more information.
[1:30:12] Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our senior producer, Casey O'Brien,
[1:30:15] Speaker 2: and our associate producer, Christina Chamberlain.
[1:30:18] Speaker 1: And to our mixer, John Bradley, and our guest booker,
[1:30:21] Speaker 1: Patrick Kottner.
[1:30:22] Speaker 2: And to Henry Kapurski for our theme song and Carly
[1:30:24] Speaker 2: Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers,
[1:30:28] Speaker 2: Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgariff, Danielle Kramer, and everybody at Exactly
[1:30:32] Speaker 2: Right Media.
[1:30:33] Speaker 3: Dun-dun!

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