# Cold w/ Judith McCreary

An episode of [That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1540370040), 3 Mar 2026, 2 h 24 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/cf7e6913-a01e-4666-a095-b24c0047c637/11e15537-62fc-4b5a-b413-b3fe01650a30/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=c3a2c876-20bf-449b-8d54-b24c0047c64d

Today, Kara and Liza discuss the episode “Cold” (Season 9, Episode 19) and investigate the case of Gerard Schaefer a.k.a. "The Killer Cop." Plus, they chat with the prolific writer of this very SVU episode, the amazing Judith McCreary. SOURCES: ABC 13 The New York Times Tampa Bay Times Vidocq Society Police1 CBS News MinnPost KIRO 7 Medium WHAT WOULD SISTER PEG DO: Vidocq Society Next week’s episode will be “Sophomore Jinx” (Season 1, Episode 6). Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3yb7hqu See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
[0:04] Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
[0:07] Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on These are our stories.
[0:10] Speaker 2: Done done, Yay, that's messed up? In sview podcast Can
[0:30] Speaker 2: you even believe it? My name is Lisa Traeger.
[0:34] Speaker 1: I can't believe it, and I'm Kara Klank And every
[0:37] Speaker 1: week it's SVU recaps deep dives into true crime interviews
[0:42] Speaker 1: with guests.
[0:42] Speaker 3: Today's is a banger.
[0:45] Speaker 1: But before that, we just chat and I'm excited to
[0:49] Speaker 1: hear about your weekend.
[0:50] Speaker 2: Fun weekend, fun weekend. I mean, obviously the Olympics overshadowy meeting.
[0:56] Speaker 1: I'm so okay. So we interviewed a big guest la week.
[1:00] Speaker 1: Not gonna say who because obviously we want to leave.
[1:03] Speaker 2: But if you came to my live show on Saturday,
[1:05] Speaker 2: I think I told eight of you. I think I
[1:07] Speaker 2: told the Oh yes, so eight of you know.
[1:09] Speaker 1: But uh, we were all talking to this guest about
[1:14] Speaker 1: Alyssa Lu's performance and I hadn't seen it yet And
[1:16] Speaker 1: as soon as I got off, I watched it twelve times.
[1:20] Speaker 3: I made my kids watch it.
[1:22] Speaker 1: I started following her like I am so obsessed with
[1:25] Speaker 1: this girl, Like what and it's I mean like not
[1:28] Speaker 1: just like fuck, she rocks at skating and I like
[1:31] Speaker 1: that she's like a little bit alternative. But like the
[1:34] Speaker 1: story about how she quit skating for two fucking years
[1:37] Speaker 1: and then came back and everybody was like, bitch, you're
[1:39] Speaker 1: not gonna do it, and she was like, I actually
[1:41] Speaker 1: am gonna do it. I'm gonna do it in my
[1:42] Speaker 1: own way, and no one's gonna tell me what to eat,
[1:44] Speaker 1: no one's gonna tell me.
[1:45] Speaker 3: When to skate.
[1:46] Speaker 1: And then she just fucking won gold, looking like she
[1:48] Speaker 1: was having the time of her life. I had I
[1:51] Speaker 1: have hope for the future. I truly was like, I
[1:53] Speaker 1: have hope for the youth. Like I was like, maybe
[1:55] Speaker 1: I didn't make a mistake having children in this horrible world.
[1:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's like tough. It's like you meet certain
[2:01] Speaker 2: young people and you go, oh my god, like we
[2:03] Speaker 2: are in good hands. This is yeah, look at the friendship.
[2:06] Speaker 2: I always say. The youth helped us wear pants that
[2:08] Speaker 2: aren't tight, which was very helpful for our lives, Like
[2:11] Speaker 2: they're more like fluid free. How are you feeling like
[2:14] Speaker 2: we do it for ourselves. And then there's of course
[2:16] Speaker 2: the tradwife red pill people, and so that's scary. But yes,
[2:20] Speaker 2: it's like fun to see the girlhood, the celebration, her
[2:23] Speaker 2: cheering for other people, like her watching other people. They
[2:27] Speaker 2: said that was rare, like after finishing skating, for a
[2:29] Speaker 2: skater to then watch her competitors, I guess is rare.
[2:33] Speaker 2: It's like these little things that are make life so
[2:37] Speaker 2: much more fun, Like we let men decide what competition
[2:42] Speaker 2: looks like, or what athleticism is or like what needs
[2:45] Speaker 2: to go down. They fucked up so many athletes. I mean,
[2:48] Speaker 2: I still think about so Serena Boneley always forever, but
[2:51] Speaker 2: like with all this bullshit and then to see these
[2:55] Speaker 2: girls be like not but also the rest of them
[2:57] Speaker 2: seems to like she just wasn't stressed down by the moment.
[3:02] Speaker 2: She didn't give, like the gold medal didn't have power
[3:05] Speaker 2: over her.
[3:06] Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like you can also give a graceful,
[3:10] Speaker 1: amazing performance where you don't look like you're about to
[3:14] Speaker 1: like vomit from stress or like that you're a glass
[3:17] Speaker 1: doll with like no emotions like she just I had,
[3:20] Speaker 1: like really truly, like I don't think I've ever seen
[3:23] Speaker 1: an athlete look like they're having so much fun. Like
[3:27] Speaker 1: she just was having a blast. It was awesome. And
[3:31] Speaker 1: then I watched her gala. I made the kids watch
[3:34] Speaker 1: other performances. We watched Amber Glenn. I mean, Amber Glenn's
[3:36] Speaker 1: also super talented, but like I can tell her she
[3:39] Speaker 1: didn't get.
[3:39] Speaker 2: The message because even after she posted, she was holding
[3:42] Speaker 2: like she was practice time. You know, they do the
[3:44] Speaker 2: like the artsy fun group thing at the end, what
[3:47] Speaker 2: is it called the gallery whatever? The gala. Yeah, but
[3:52] Speaker 2: she she was holding her phone and she's like, here,
[3:54] Speaker 2: I'm gonna do the jump that I missed, and like
[3:55] Speaker 2: it's so easy. It's not a hard jump. She did
[3:58] Speaker 2: it in practice without trying, And I'm like, you're missing me,
[4:01] Speaker 2: Alissa of it all. Yeah, it's not about that. No,
[4:06] Speaker 2: But then Amber I loved her final performance at the show. Yes,
[4:10] Speaker 2: then she looked like she was having a great time.
[4:12] Speaker 2: Same with Ilia. Like when people say, hopefully she changed
[4:16] Speaker 2: the sport, I think she did. I think you could
[4:19] Speaker 2: see it in the showcase. People were having more fun.
[4:22] Speaker 2: You can just see it.
[4:24] Speaker 1: And it's just cool that she left for two years,
[4:28] Speaker 1: did her own thing, and then was like I think
[4:30] Speaker 1: I'm going to come back and they were like you can't.
[4:33] Speaker 1: No one's ever done that, and she was like watch me.
[4:35] Speaker 1: I just like love them.
[4:36] Speaker 2: It's kind of like tons of things, like it's kind
[4:38] Speaker 2: of I think about being on set or like I've
[4:40] Speaker 2: or like writer's room things where you hear about people
[4:43] Speaker 2: of like work all night. We're ordering dinner here fifteen hours,
[4:47] Speaker 2: sixteen we're going into overtime. Yeah, and then we talked
[4:50] Speaker 2: to someone and they're like, yeah, we're out by five,
[4:53] Speaker 2: they know what they want. We're home, we get to
[4:55] Speaker 2: have dinner, and like the projects are good. It's such
[4:59] Speaker 2: an old it's mad.
[5:01] Speaker 1: It's like an old way of thinking that working hard
[5:04] Speaker 1: means like working yourself down to the bone, Like that's
[5:07] Speaker 1: not necessarily it's like work smarter, not harder. Like I
[5:11] Speaker 1: don't know, like it's you know, the old SNL was
[5:13] Speaker 1: like you have to stay overnight and do cocaine until
[5:16] Speaker 1: you know, but.
[5:17] Speaker 2: They did coke. That's what's different. That's why like I
[5:19] Speaker 2: thought SNL when I said the long hours, because then
[5:21] Speaker 2: one of those people went and did their own TV show,
[5:24] Speaker 2: and everyone that worked on that TV show said it
[5:25] Speaker 2: was psychotic because they brought the SNL vibe to a
[5:29] Speaker 2: thing that didn't need it. And some people want to
[5:31] Speaker 2: go home. Yeah, some people don't hate their families. Like
[5:35] Speaker 2: some people need to rest and feel good. And I mean,
[5:38] Speaker 2: I think about my one year of playing football, but
[5:40] Speaker 2: I think about football practice and like we weren't allowed
[5:43] Speaker 2: to drink water and one and one athlete asked for
[5:47] Speaker 2: water and he got in so much trouble where they
[5:49] Speaker 2: made him walk to go get the water and we
[5:51] Speaker 2: had to do like push ups or suicides or something
[5:54] Speaker 2: while he went to drink water as punishment for him
[5:56] Speaker 2: asking to drink water. And then people were dying, and
[6:00] Speaker 2: it's like what I'm doing? Like what is It's like
[6:04] Speaker 2: they want to suffer because they can't give birth, Like
[6:07] Speaker 2: I don't, I don't get what it is that like
[6:10] Speaker 2: athletes and young kids had to die. So then you
[6:13] Speaker 2: realize it's okay to have water and still be a
[6:16] Speaker 2: powerful athlete.
[6:18] Speaker 1: That like psychological torture equals toughness in some way, Like
[6:22] Speaker 1: that's not really that, ain't it.
[6:24] Speaker 2: And the women's hockey team was incredible. And then of
[6:26] Speaker 2: course I woke up this morning as we were recording
[6:28] Speaker 2: this to see the men's hockey team being a disappointment,
[6:31] Speaker 2: like always, what happened? Oh, they were on the phone
[6:34] Speaker 2: with the president. He mister president, and then he goes, god,
[6:37] Speaker 2: I got to invite the women's team, and then they
[6:39] Speaker 2: all laughed are you fucking kidding? Nope, and cashel as
[6:47] Speaker 2: they're drinking coronas. Gross. That's so funny. That's because even
[6:53] Speaker 2: my dad was like, are you gonna watch?
[6:54] Speaker 4: I go.
[6:54] Speaker 2: I do not support men. I don't obviously. I watch
[6:57] Speaker 2: the celebrations. I love brothers, I love unfortunately you know,
[7:01] Speaker 2: them honoring their like teammate who passed, and you know,
[7:06] Speaker 2: I love joy and Olympics, but I knew not to
[7:08] Speaker 2: get I knew I knew not to get too excited,
[7:12] Speaker 2: and I was right and I was geeze. Yeah, and
[7:15] Speaker 2: uh the women's team was so I mean, it was
[7:19] Speaker 2: an amazing Olympics. It was really fun. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
[7:23] Speaker 2: Wait did I tell you this soul cycle thing? So okay? No. Well,
[7:27] Speaker 2: so I'm doing this financial podcast and I've got hired.
[7:32] Speaker 2: It's get rich Quick schemes. You guys will know more.
[7:35] Speaker 2: But I so I'm like, wait, you're hosting it. Yeah,
[7:38] Speaker 2: I'm hosting it, and I'm doing these schemes. I'm coming
[7:40] Speaker 2: up with them, and this finance company is like paying
[7:42] Speaker 2: for all of them. Oh oh wow. Yeah. So it's
[7:45] Speaker 2: like really fun stuff I'm doing. But after a few
[7:48] Speaker 2: recording sessions, the people I'm working with go, you know
[7:52] Speaker 2: that you've multiple times equated amounts of money to how
[7:54] Speaker 2: many soul cycle classes you can buy? And I go, no,
[7:57] Speaker 2: I didn't know that I do that. They said, you
[8:00] Speaker 2: do it all the time. Oh my god, it's your unit,
[8:02] Speaker 2: it's your unit of measurement. So something was like over
[8:04] Speaker 2: because the time it happened, I go, oh, over five hundred.
[8:06] Speaker 2: I'm like, that's like twenty soul cycle classes. And they're like,
[8:09] Speaker 2: you do that all the time. That's so funny. How
[8:16] Speaker 2: much are we getting paid for this gig? Oh okay,
[8:18] Speaker 2: like two hundred soul cycle classes? All right, I'll take it.
[8:23] Speaker 2: I mean, I went in the blizzard yesterday, but I
[8:25] Speaker 2: needed it. No. My Grammarcy show was like so fun.
[8:32] Speaker 2: Everyone was so fun. And then Sophia, our friend who
[8:35] Speaker 2: works at Live Nation, like she put the show together
[8:38] Speaker 2: and so she decorated my whole green room and heated
[8:42] Speaker 2: rivalry pictures. Oh my god, the surprise. And then I
[8:46] Speaker 2: hired our friend Mindy Tucker to take photos, and I
[8:50] Speaker 2: recreated all the poses with friends who came to the
[8:53] Speaker 2: green room, so everyone's stay tuned for my heated rivalry
[8:57] Speaker 2: photo shoots. The green room was so fun. My friends
[9:01] Speaker 2: were so fun and I wore jeans and everyone was
[9:03] Speaker 2: really happy about that, and so, whoa, I had multipicture. Well,
[9:08] Speaker 2: there'll be a lot of professional photos, but I've seeing
[9:11] Speaker 2: you in jeans in a long time. Yeah, I wear
[9:14] Speaker 2: pants now. And everyone kept being like, you gotta wear
[9:16] Speaker 2: more pants. We love the pants situation, and so and
[9:20] Speaker 2: I got these pants for free. They're not I wouldn't
[9:21] Speaker 2: have even bought the pants. And I wore pants. Everyone
[9:25] Speaker 2: is so funny. The venue was so nice to me.
[9:27] Speaker 2: I mean not to brag, but multiple people at the
[9:30] Speaker 2: venue came up to me going, we always get right wing,
[9:32] Speaker 2: terrible comedians. You're the best person we've ever had here.
[9:35] Speaker 2: They're like, please come back. And then we looked through
[9:37] Speaker 2: the who's been there and we're like, yeah, I'm sure
[9:39] Speaker 2: they're the night of their lives, like they just were
[9:41] Speaker 2: like and then on the way out, one of the
[9:43] Speaker 2: door guys goes man, fuck Jessica Tish because I do
[9:46] Speaker 2: a joke about her, and I'm like, that's awesome. I
[9:50] Speaker 2: think they're just used to kind of the Nazi comics
[9:52] Speaker 2: being there, so they were just being like, yeah, fuck
[9:55] Speaker 2: Jessica Tish, that bitch doesn't know what she's doing. I
[9:58] Speaker 2: was like, this is so funny. It be like bonding
[10:00] Speaker 2: with all of the employees about the police commissioner. Like
[10:03] Speaker 2: I just I'm sort of shocked. I feel like I
[10:06] Speaker 2: always think of the Grammarcy as like a cool like
[10:09] Speaker 2: for most people, but we know perform not like the Nazis.
[10:12] Speaker 2: I think it's because Jake Cornell was just there. I'm
[10:14] Speaker 2: sure they like loved him. He came to the show,
[10:16] Speaker 2: which was so nice. But like I think because of
[10:20] Speaker 2: the side, I think it's just trends, Like I don't know.
[10:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I guess it's because like one of the
[10:25] Speaker 1: only shows I've seen there was like Jared did a
[10:27] Speaker 1: show with like Pete Holmes and Chelsea Paretti and like just.
[10:30] Speaker 2: People that I don't think. I love it as a venue.
[10:32] Speaker 2: It's awesome. So and everyone that worked there was like
[10:36] Speaker 2: so nice checking in they had all the boots, like
[10:39] Speaker 2: it was just it was huge and I don't know
[10:42] Speaker 2: if we talked about this or not, but I opened
[10:43] Speaker 2: for someone there like a few months ago, which was
[10:47] Speaker 2: great because it's nice to get familiar with a new
[10:49] Speaker 2: venue before you have to like do it power, especially
[10:52] Speaker 2: like if it's like you're too excited or something or nervous.
[10:55] Speaker 2: And so when I was there, I was introducing the comics.
[10:59] Speaker 2: So I was like, oh, do you want me to
[11:00] Speaker 2: be like New York's own, like born and raised like something,
[11:02] Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and he goes whatever, nobody cares. It's
[11:05] Speaker 2: not like it's Madison Square Garden. And I was like, okay,
[11:08] Speaker 2: and it is just like what a weird attitude to
[11:11] Speaker 2: have in life. And I kind of treated it like
[11:12] Speaker 2: it was Madison Square Garden and it felt like that,
[11:15] Speaker 2: like I just loved in my life. And we raised
[11:18] Speaker 2: money for the Food Bank. I don't know how much,
[11:19] Speaker 2: but that's what I'm gonna do now. From now on,
[11:21] Speaker 2: there's like QR codes and if you want to meet me,
[11:23] Speaker 2: you have to donate to the food Bank. And if
[11:26] Speaker 2: you weren't there and you want to the NYC Food.
[11:30] Speaker 3: Bank wherever, that's a great idea.
[11:32] Speaker 2: I know. I felt really cool about myself for sure,
[11:34] Speaker 2: that's really that one. But the line wasn't that long.
[11:37] Speaker 2: This always happens to me every time I do a
[11:39] Speaker 2: charity event. I'm like, I should have just given them money.
[11:40] Speaker 2: This is humiliating, the lack of ones my sex and
[11:44] Speaker 2: the city trivia and I, I mean what I poured
[11:46] Speaker 2: into it, and maybe six hundred dollars for Puerto Rico,
[11:49] Speaker 2: like it was.
[11:51] Speaker 3: Hey, every dollar helps.
[11:53] Speaker 2: Come on, I know it all. But I got wasted.
[11:57] Speaker 2: I stayed up till four thirty in the morning. Allison
[12:01] Speaker 2: ended up stealing me a bedazzled ice skate that was
[12:05] Speaker 2: hanging in one of the bars. We were the last
[12:08] Speaker 2: two standing. And I love New York City. I got
[12:10] Speaker 2: to walk home from my venue like to all the
[12:14] Speaker 2: bars and then pizza on my blocks open until five am,
[12:18] Speaker 2: so I got to like be four thirty and get
[12:21] Speaker 2: a slice of pizza. And then the next morning was
[12:23] Speaker 2: like a rough day. For sure, I nowhere to be nowhere,
[12:28] Speaker 2: I didn't have to be anywhere except soul Cycle at five,
[12:30] Speaker 2: So I was like, okay, that's it's really so impressive
[12:33] Speaker 2: that you get up and do soul Cycle after you've
[12:35] Speaker 2: been like drinking, Like I can't.
[12:37] Speaker 1: I even at five o'clock even I can't, Like I can't.
[12:39] Speaker 2: Oh, get wait, did I tell you this that I
[12:41] Speaker 2: found out my one of my soul Cycle friends is
[12:43] Speaker 2: in high school? What so I'm so oh one of
[12:47] Speaker 2: my soul Cycle friends came to the show, two of them.
[12:50] Speaker 2: That was really really sweet. No. So I'm sitting talking
[12:54] Speaker 2: to one of the girls that I talked to that's
[12:55] Speaker 2: part of you know that that just like loves the
[12:58] Speaker 2: same teacher. And she has a gun and she's built
[13:01] Speaker 2: like a ballerina. So like in my head, I'm like,
[13:03] Speaker 2: she's theragunning. She's here, She's like she I'm like, what's
[13:06] Speaker 2: up with you? I are you an athlete? What are
[13:08] Speaker 2: you doing here? What's what the theaguon? And she goes, well,
[13:12] Speaker 2: you know, I'm a lot younger than people think I am.
[13:14] Speaker 2: I go, what are you twenty? What's up? She goes, No,
[13:16] Speaker 2: I go, What's how old are you? She goes, I'm
[13:19] Speaker 2: in high school? And she like told me where I go,
[13:21] Speaker 2: You're in high school? I go, you know, I'm probably
[13:23] Speaker 2: over twenty years older than you. And then I told
[13:25] Speaker 2: her how old I was. She goes, yeah, you are,
[13:26] Speaker 2: And I go that's crazy, but that's cool. Like, and
[13:31] Speaker 2: so I learned one of my friends is in high school.
[13:33] Speaker 1: Wow, that's really that's really crazy considering that you're also
[13:39] Speaker 1: on the Epstein list.
[13:41] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, you're in the file. I am in
[13:44] Speaker 2: the files. I was gonna say one more, so, well,
[13:46] Speaker 2: hold on, we'll get But the other girl at five o'clock,
[13:49] Speaker 2: she was also like, I stayed out till four thirty
[13:51] Speaker 2: in the morning, but she's like twenty two. It's like, Wow,
[13:55] Speaker 2: I deserve even more attention for what I'm doing. I
[13:57] Speaker 2: think I'm probably the oldest. No, there was some older
[13:59] Speaker 2: people in the clas Wow, I love it. I love that.
[14:03] Speaker 2: It's the main thing fun And Jared gold scene open
[14:05] Speaker 2: for me and he was so funny and everyone like
[14:09] Speaker 2: was laughing. I don't know. It was like so cool.
[14:11] Speaker 2: And then Mindy Tucker's the best and I'm gonna look
[14:13] Speaker 2: through all those photos. Oh yeah, she really fucking rocks.
[14:16] Speaker 2: And the green room vibe was great, and then the
[14:18] Speaker 2: after hang was good. It was all around sounds like
[14:21] Speaker 2: a great night. Okay, I have in the Epstein file.
[14:24] Speaker 2: So I wake up one morning a few weeks ago
[14:26] Speaker 2: and I don't want to make light of it because
[14:27] Speaker 2: it's like a fucked up thing.
[14:28] Speaker 1: But no, I'm gonna actually make light of it when
[14:31] Speaker 1: your high school friends. It's actually very fucked up and serious.
[14:34] Speaker 1: But I did receive a text from Lisa saying me
[14:36] Speaker 1: and Casey got out. Yeah, so I sent it to
[14:38] Speaker 1: the group. Yeah what the text day it goes. It
[14:41] Speaker 1: was just like I'm in the files. I'm in the
[14:43] Speaker 1: Epstein files. We were like what the fuck no, and
[14:47] Speaker 1: telling the story.
[14:48] Speaker 2: So I wake up and I have a text for
[14:50] Speaker 2: my friend Amesh and he and it's like a photo
[14:54] Speaker 2: of an email, and I'm kind of looking at it.
[14:56] Speaker 2: I don't understand. I see my name, I see the lineups.
[14:58] Speaker 2: I remember those shows because it's like I did these
[15:00] Speaker 2: da Hotel shows at the Cellar before I was even
[15:02] Speaker 2: passed there. So these shows are like they're a milestone
[15:07] Speaker 2: in my mind. So I remember the core Memory shows
[15:11] Speaker 2: and so I go, what is this? And he was like,
[15:13] Speaker 2: it's the Epstein files. You're in the Epstein files, and
[15:15] Speaker 2: I was like, what the fuck's Then I zoom in
[15:17] Speaker 2: and then a top it's like his fucking email the
[15:20] Speaker 2: g you know, the j party events or vacations or whatever,
[15:23] Speaker 2: and it's him texting a friend being like birthday drinks
[15:26] Speaker 2: in comedy night. Let's see like Gilbert Godfrey tonight, something
[15:29] Speaker 2: like that, or well, I know what it said. It said,
[15:33] Speaker 2: the real Gilbert Godfrey's here, because I bet they went
[15:35] Speaker 2: to the cellar when Godfrey was there the other comic
[15:38] Speaker 2: and we're confused, so they I think that's what the
[15:41] Speaker 2: email was about. I don't know who it was too.
[15:44] Speaker 2: I don't know if they were at the show, but
[15:46] Speaker 2: my name is in the lineup with.
[15:50] Speaker 3: Other Comedy Central.
[15:51] Speaker 1: It's like a comedy seller email, right, Like that's like, yeah,
[15:54] Speaker 1: I bet.
[15:54] Speaker 2: And so he subscribes to the seller updates and saw
[15:58] Speaker 2: the lineup, forwarded it to a friend and was like,
[16:00] Speaker 2: should we go here for your birthday? Yeah? Files they're
[16:05] Speaker 2: just like us, you know, they're running around having those lives.
[16:08] Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of It's like if you're
[16:11] Speaker 1: searching the Epstein files by word, you're going to find
[16:14] Speaker 1: people in it that don't have anything to do with anything.
[16:16] Speaker 2: But then what freaked me out was like, so I
[16:19] Speaker 2: mentioned it on John Hill's radio show because it's it
[16:22] Speaker 2: just happened, and I was on it, and then on
[16:24] Speaker 2: something else I did. A woman wrote She's in the
[16:27] Speaker 2: Epstein list and it's like, oh, yeah, I forgot. People
[16:29] Speaker 2: are like it was.
[16:31] Speaker 3: So stupid and they don't follow context at all.
[16:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was like, oh, are people gonna start coming?
[16:36] Speaker 2: It's like I already I have bad things on the internet.
[16:38] Speaker 2: You actually don't even have to make up. Yeah, you
[16:41] Speaker 2: don't have to make stuff up. It's there. But also
[16:44] Speaker 2: like the like.
[16:46] Speaker 1: To be like who you are with your point of
[16:49] Speaker 1: view hosting this podcast and then actually like legitimately being
[16:53] Speaker 1: in the Epstein files would be so unin like for
[16:56] Speaker 1: people to be like, no, she's in it.
[16:57] Speaker 3: It's like, look up one thing about her.
[17:01] Speaker 1: But I am going to see Jefferson Mays our friend
[17:07] Speaker 1: aka Rudnick, doctor Carl Rudnick in amedeis at the Pasadena Playhouse.
[17:14] Speaker 1: He is in Amadeus and he's playing Sealiary. I've never
[17:18] Speaker 1: seen Amadeis. I don't know anything about it, but multiple
[17:21] Speaker 1: people have texted me being like this show is so
[17:23] Speaker 1: amazing and the guy who plays Selary is so good.
[17:26] Speaker 2: And then I'm like, oh my god, this Jefferson maze.
[17:28] Speaker 1: And Jared is a huge fan of him because he
[17:30] Speaker 1: listens to him doing audio books and he loves him.
[17:33] Speaker 1: He reads a bunch of Jared's audiobooks. So we're going
[17:36] Speaker 1: in like a week or so to see him in Amadeus.
[17:39] Speaker 2: I'm excited. Oh my god, I might try to email
[17:43] Speaker 2: him or something and be like, get from herege because
[17:46] Speaker 2: we've been into the Pasadena Playhouse screen room. Yes we
[17:49] Speaker 2: saw Kate there. Yeah, yeah, I'm excited. Oh and if
[17:53] Speaker 2: anyone is wondering, the new moona song amazing the Soul
[17:57] Speaker 2: cycle too, they really it never ends with Moon. H Yeah,
[18:01] Speaker 2: they're awesome. I can't wait for the new album.
[18:05] Speaker 3: Uh okay, well let's get rolling.
[18:09] Speaker 2: Let's get thank you for indulging me. It was it
[18:12] Speaker 2: was a big weekend. Yeah, no, for sure, And go
[18:14] Speaker 2: to go down my hair and makeup. Like I didn't
[18:17] Speaker 2: even tell her. I like glitter. The bitch just new.
[18:20] Speaker 2: I don't know, because my girl was a Candace. No,
[18:24] Speaker 2: Candace knows me so well. She was unavailable, so she
[18:28] Speaker 2: recommended me her friend, who was great. But like I got,
[18:30] Speaker 2: I got a lot of glitter on. I was wearing
[18:32] Speaker 2: a course.
[18:33] Speaker 3: She gave her the lesa cheat sheet.
[18:34] Speaker 2: I just had fun. I don't know, it's just so cool.
[18:38] Speaker 2: I'm so glad. I'm glad it was.
[18:40] Speaker 3: I mean, I knew it was gonna be great.
[18:41] Speaker 1: Like it's like a hometown show practically for you and like,
[18:45] Speaker 1: you know, a great venue. Okay, So if you guys
[18:48] Speaker 1: want to catch Lee's on the road, go to That's
[18:50] Speaker 1: messed Up live dot com and you can.
[18:52] Speaker 2: Go to her website there. I just added Vermont Vegue.
[18:56] Speaker 2: I haven't made the poster, like kill me Vegas. I'm
[18:59] Speaker 2: going to Salt Lake. I'm out. I'm out.
[19:01] Speaker 1: Yeah, she's out and about. Also, we have merch in
[19:04] Speaker 1: our store. We have our Lewis Lowess Louise Lowest Lowess
[19:09] Speaker 1: Lewis shirt that is super soft and cute and is
[19:13] Speaker 1: a great conversation starter based on Lisa's inability to say
[19:18] Speaker 1: one judge's name. Uh So, go to our store and
[19:22] Speaker 1: check that out. We have also a couple of like
[19:24] Speaker 1: other little items that are still up there for sale,
[19:28] Speaker 1: and we also have a Patreon now, so go check
[19:32] Speaker 1: out our Patreon. It's patreon dot com slash That's messed
[19:36] Speaker 1: Up And like, honestly, we're going to be doing an
[19:40] Speaker 1: episode soon where we cover the Tyra Banks dot the
[19:43] Speaker 1: America's next Top Model documentary and.
[19:46] Speaker 2: That aided this weekend.
[19:47] Speaker 1: Yet watching that juxtaposed with like Alyssa Lou, I'm like,
[19:51] Speaker 1: we're so much better now than we were. I feel
[19:53] Speaker 1: like in a lot of ways with like the messaging
[19:55] Speaker 1: that we're giving young girls. Like so if you want
[19:58] Speaker 1: to hear us talk about that, all right, we really
[20:01] Speaker 1: have to start because we could talk about this and
[20:03] Speaker 1: it's a good supper podcast about this. It's a good episode,
[20:06] Speaker 1: great guest, So don't go anywhere, all right, today we're
[20:14] Speaker 1: doing Cold Bird.
[20:16] Speaker 3: It's cold in here.
[20:18] Speaker 2: Let's see some Toros. That's the bass fear.
[20:22] Speaker 5: What's I forgot the shamrocks now the Clovers?
[20:25] Speaker 1: The Clovers? Yeah, the toros or the copy you know?
[20:30] Speaker 1: Season nine, episode nineteen. So this Bad Boy came out
[20:34] Speaker 1: in May of two thousand and eight.
[20:37] Speaker 2: Damn uh.
[20:39] Speaker 1: We open on the world's status power point of just
[20:41] Speaker 1: dead woman after dead woman, and a guy is like
[20:44] Speaker 1: reading off details these are unsolved cases and a room
[20:48] Speaker 1: full of like sleuths or watching this presentation and like
[20:50] Speaker 1: asking questions and who is in the audience. But maybe
[20:54] Speaker 1: my least favorite regular cast member of all time, Chester Lake,
[20:57] Speaker 1: do you have a regular that you have disliked more
[21:00] Speaker 1: than chester Lake.
[21:02] Speaker 2: Hmm no, even like no, because all the ada's that
[21:06] Speaker 2: we don't like are really quick and an owl they're doing.
[21:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, like even gray Lick, I'm like, I mean he
[21:12] Speaker 1: was only chester Lake was only in two episodes of
[21:14] Speaker 1: season eight and then all of season nine. And it's like,
[21:17] Speaker 1: even though I hated gray Lick, I don't think she
[21:19] Speaker 1: was so much less future than him. Really hate velasco
[21:26] Speaker 1: He's back, baby, Well he's not back.
[21:27] Speaker 2: He's coming back for like probably one or two episodes,
[21:30] Speaker 2: but he's no. Chester Lake is the worst, so he
[21:33] Speaker 2: doesn't fit in. I just I don't know. I'm trying
[21:36] Speaker 2: to think of someone I hated more. I can't.
[21:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, he's played by Adam Beach, who I thought
[21:43] Speaker 1: I had not seen since this episode of the show. Uh,
[21:46] Speaker 1: but I guess he was in a bunch of episodes
[21:48] Speaker 1: of Big Love, which I did watch and I have
[21:50] Speaker 1: no recollection. And also when I go to his IMDb,
[21:53] Speaker 1: his most recent credit is he did a voice on
[21:54] Speaker 1: a poly Pocket TV show And it's like so confusing
[21:58] Speaker 1: because to me, his voice is the worst part. He
[22:00] Speaker 1: has the most monotone voice. I can't imagine what he's
[22:04] Speaker 1: like doing like Polly Pocket, like hey, Polly, Like I
[22:07] Speaker 1: don't know.
[22:08] Speaker 2: I just like can't.
[22:08] Speaker 1: He's so like I don't know, and I don't like him. Yeah,
[22:15] Speaker 1: not a fan. So he's sitting there with a blonde woman.
[22:17] Speaker 1: They're shooting out some questions and then afterwards they're walking
[22:20] Speaker 1: down the stairs after the meeting. Lake's like, hey, you
[22:22] Speaker 1: get those photos I sent you. They're not dick pics,
[22:24] Speaker 1: their crime scene photos. And she's like, Babe, there are
[22:27] Speaker 1: eighty two members who would love to help you present
[22:29] Speaker 1: to the group. And he goes, VDOC is swamped. There
[22:33] Speaker 1: isn't an open slot for a year. And the v
[22:36] Speaker 1: Doock Society is a real group that started in nineteen
[22:38] Speaker 1: ninety giving free expert assistance to law enforcement agencies across
[22:42] Speaker 1: the US to solve cold cases.
[22:44] Speaker 3: But we're going to get more into that later in
[22:46] Speaker 3: this episode.
[22:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll dive and I'll dive in.
[22:49] Speaker 1: Yeah, and Liza is going to get more into VDOC.
[22:51] Speaker 1: But we've we've mentioned it in another episode, but yeah,
[22:54] Speaker 1: this is.
[22:55] Speaker 2: But then the woman.
[22:56] Speaker 1: What I don't understand is he's like, oh, I would
[22:58] Speaker 1: present to the group, but they're big, like they're they're
[23:01] Speaker 1: busy for a year, and then she goes, stop being
[23:04] Speaker 1: so stubborn.
[23:05] Speaker 2: It's like, I don't know if he's being stubborn. He's
[23:06] Speaker 2: saying that they're basically.
[23:07] Speaker 1: Like, but she's also she's also putting her hand on
[23:11] Speaker 1: his chest while she talks to him, like it's very
[23:15] Speaker 1: coded that these two have either a flirtation or are
[23:17] Speaker 1: fucking or have fucked, which I don't ever put a
[23:21] Speaker 1: hand on a chest of a colleague, like I can't
[23:24] Speaker 1: imagine a time I've done it.
[23:26] Speaker 3: A shoulder perhaps, And she says, you.
[23:30] Speaker 1: Know, ten years is a long time to hang onto
[23:32] Speaker 1: a case, and he goes, I'm asking you, pen And
[23:35] Speaker 1: her name is Penelope Fielding. She is played by Deirdre Lovejoy,
[23:38] Speaker 1: who is a cornucopia of dick wolf like. She's got
[23:42] Speaker 1: her Wikipedia entry on the Law in Order wiki is
[23:45] Speaker 1: like she's been on all of them. She was in Slaves,
[23:50] Speaker 1: she was in Secrets Slaves the season one, Secrets the
[23:53] Speaker 1: season two, she was in Postgraduate Psychopath. She plays the
[23:55] Speaker 1: doctor who says that Henry Mester's been cured. Okay, dumbney,
[24:00] Speaker 1: but this woman, Deirdre Lovedoy works a lot. She's gonna
[24:04] Speaker 1: works a lot. Yeah, she's gonna be in Daredevil Born Again,
[24:08] Speaker 1: probably something that you know looks like a CW type
[24:12] Speaker 1: of or maybe not. I assume everything that's like Superhero away.
[24:18] Speaker 1: Oh who was you, young girl? Oh she was Becky
[24:20] Speaker 1: and Baker's sister. Oh totally okay. So she is like
[24:27] Speaker 1: telling him, well, your victim was dumped. Sort through everything,
[24:30] Speaker 1: see what belongs and what doesn't, which feels like she's
[24:33] Speaker 1: explaining detective work to him and he has been a
[24:37] Speaker 1: detective for a long time. And then he's like, I
[24:39] Speaker 1: didn't if this guy made any mistakes, I didn't find them,
[24:42] Speaker 1: and she's like not yet, and then she goes, you
[24:44] Speaker 1: also need to reinterview all the witnesses and he goes,
[24:46] Speaker 1: there aren't any, and she goes, well, actually there was one.
[24:49] Speaker 1: And then we caught to a fancy party where Casey
[24:51] Speaker 1: Novak is like choking down a cannot pay and like
[24:54] Speaker 1: maybe taking a swig of some white wine and she's
[24:58] Speaker 1: like what are you what are you selling me? To
[24:59] Speaker 1: the guy that she's talking to, and he's trying to
[25:01] Speaker 1: sell her on being a criminal defense attorney and he's like,
[25:04] Speaker 1: our clients are accused of SEC violations, not diddling some
[25:07] Speaker 1: four year old on a playground, and it's like, okay,
[25:10] Speaker 1: the way that you can't see that her work is
[25:11] Speaker 1: more important is wild. But Casey gets a beep on
[25:16] Speaker 1: something I can't see if it's a beeper or flip phone.
[25:17] Speaker 1: I kind of want to assume it's a it'd definitely
[25:19] Speaker 1: flip phone, but I like to assume that maybe she
[25:21] Speaker 1: has a beeper also, And she's like, I gotta run,
[25:23] Speaker 1: and he's like, no more late night calls, no more
[25:25] Speaker 1: rape victims and dead kids.
[25:27] Speaker 2: How do you sleep at night? And she goes, I
[25:29] Speaker 2: don't and she bounces.
[25:30] Speaker 1: So now at the crime scene, Novak is standing with
[25:33] Speaker 1: Daddy Kragan as Benson, Stabler, Finn and Munch approach. There's
[25:38] Speaker 1: tons of men there in their full fancy like high
[25:41] Speaker 1: up NYPD drag, you know what I mean. Like everybody's
[25:44] Speaker 1: in their like little hat and like they're like, if
[25:47] Speaker 1: you're high up at one PP, are you walking around
[25:50] Speaker 1: at night with like your full like navy outfit on?
[25:53] Speaker 2: Not? You know what I'm saying, Like.
[25:55] Speaker 1: The all the pins and like all the little lapel
[25:58] Speaker 1: things that they wear, like when one when four times
[26:02] Speaker 1: in the whole series we've seen Marishka dress up like
[26:05] Speaker 1: that or Benson, you know. But these guys are all
[26:07] Speaker 1: just standing around and they're coming, they're coming and going,
[26:10] Speaker 1: and Stabler goes, well, I heard it was a cop shooting.
[26:12] Speaker 1: Isn't everybody using their cell phones? Why is the press here?
[26:15] Speaker 1: And Craigan says, well, they followed the line of brass
[26:17] Speaker 1: straight out of one PP. So I guess like the
[26:20] Speaker 1: press just stands.
[26:21] Speaker 2: Outside of one PP. And when the cops all goes somewhere,
[26:23] Speaker 2: they follow one dead cop, one wounded. Craigan fought for
[26:27] Speaker 2: his squad to be there. They're kind of like, why
[26:29] Speaker 2: are we here, and Craig, It's like, because I thought
[26:31] Speaker 2: for it. The victim is precinct Detective Edward Kralik, which
[26:35] Speaker 2: is sort of funny because Kim gray Lick starts next season.
[26:39] Speaker 2: But whatever next episode.
[26:42] Speaker 1: Uh this is, by the way, the season finale episode
[26:45] Speaker 1: of season nine. So uh, there's one suspect, but Casey's like,
[26:50] Speaker 1: you are not allowed to question him and nothing gets
[26:52] Speaker 1: searched without a warrant, and you keep me on speed
[26:55] Speaker 1: dial because the suspect is done done Detective Chester Lake.
[27:00] Speaker 2: So I was.
[27:01] Speaker 1: Reading some of the online chatter about this episode, And
[27:04] Speaker 1: it's funny when like you're a person that was watching
[27:06] Speaker 1: this in real time because you saw kind of what
[27:10] Speaker 1: was going on in the commercials and you had also
[27:12] Speaker 1: heard stuff. So like at this point people knew spoiler
[27:16] Speaker 1: that Novak and Lake were leaving the show, so they
[27:21] Speaker 1: all are kind of like, Okay, we have got to
[27:23] Speaker 1: wrap up these two people on in this episode. So
[27:28] Speaker 1: everybody looks over and they see Lake being loaded into
[27:31] Speaker 1: an ambulance and we're at the credits, so it's somehow
[27:35] Speaker 1: morning now.
[27:36] Speaker 3: It was just pitch black night.
[27:37] Speaker 1: Casey was just at a party, so we would have
[27:39] Speaker 1: to assume eight nine pm. It's full morning now, sun
[27:42] Speaker 1: is high in the sky. Melinda's on the scene. She goes,
[27:45] Speaker 1: I see the circus is in town. Then she turns
[27:48] Speaker 1: the dead guy over, who I have to assume has
[27:50] Speaker 1: just been lying face down in the grass for twelve hours. Like,
[27:52] Speaker 1: I don't understand what has been happening, and they're doing
[27:56] Speaker 1: this weird thing. I don't know if you clocked this
[27:59] Speaker 1: in this episode, where we're seeing the pov of looking
[28:03] Speaker 1: through a camera and then we're seeing, we're hearing and
[28:06] Speaker 1: seeing black and white photos being taken of the crime scene.
[28:09] Speaker 1: They do it here a couple times, right here and
[28:12] Speaker 1: then nowhere else. Yeah, it seems like a weird thing
[28:15] Speaker 1: that a director of the of the episode is like,
[28:19] Speaker 1: I've got a cool idea for like a It's like,
[28:21] Speaker 1: I don't understand why they're never like we don't do that.
[28:24] Speaker 1: We have a style guide for the show, and it's
[28:26] Speaker 1: not showing reenactments. It's not doing like a little like
[28:30] Speaker 1: like forensic files thing.
[28:32] Speaker 2: We just don't do that. You know, But you you
[28:36] Speaker 2: hate reenactments.
[28:38] Speaker 1: I don't hate reenactments. I think they have to be
[28:41] Speaker 1: done well. They can be done. They're really done badly
[28:43] Speaker 1: a lot of the time. Okay, but I thought the
[28:46] Speaker 1: ones in like Nancy's show about Apartment six o three
[28:49] Speaker 1: were good.
[28:50] Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and I like the way she talks about Yeah.
[28:53] Speaker 2: I mean yeah, it's an incredible you know.
[28:56] Speaker 1: I just think they've got to be they should be
[28:57] Speaker 1: done tastefully or they take me out of it. Anyway,
[29:00] Speaker 1: A reenactment on his few just like doesn't happen. It's
[29:02] Speaker 1: weird to just like throw Win in in like season
[29:05] Speaker 1: eight or whatever. But in this they're doing these weird
[29:08] Speaker 1: things and you're seeing these black white photos Melinda goes,
[29:10] Speaker 1: I got five gsw's gunshot wounds.
[29:13] Speaker 3: He's officially dead. Can I take him?
[29:14] Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, he's been cooking out here for twelve hours,
[29:16] Speaker 1: so you'd probably take him. But on one of these
[29:19] Speaker 1: little photo shots, Stabler spots some of the brass straight
[29:23] Speaker 1: up like stepping in blood evidence, and he's like, don't move,
[29:27] Speaker 1: and the guy goes, who do you think you're talking to?
[29:29] Speaker 1: And he's like, you're stepping in my blood evidence. And
[29:31] Speaker 1: the guy's like like, yeah, one of the guys that's
[29:34] Speaker 1: fancy dressed up in the brass outfit.
[29:36] Speaker 2: Right.
[29:37] Speaker 1: So Benson goes over to talk to CSU Captain Judith
[29:41] Speaker 1: Cziper aka friend of the Pod Karen Browning, and she's like,
[29:44] Speaker 1: we're almost done freezing the crime scene in time. It's
[29:47] Speaker 1: a camera called scan Station two which scans the entire
[29:50] Speaker 1: crime scene so that you don't have to recreate a
[29:52] Speaker 1: crime scene. You've got the whole thing right there. It
[29:55] Speaker 1: shows you where all the shooters were standing.
[29:57] Speaker 2: And the more modern iteration of this is called cs
[30:00] Speaker 2: I three sixty.
[30:01] Speaker 3: Like that's what I want to people are doing that now,
[30:05] Speaker 3: I said, cool.
[30:06] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And she can tell you exactly where all
[30:12] Speaker 2: the you know, sometimes SVW has some weird machines and
[30:16] Speaker 2: you know they're not real. You know, sometimes there's a
[30:18] Speaker 2: technology and you're like, wow, no fucking way are you
[30:21] Speaker 2: doing the sound waves of their footsteps? But this one,
[30:27] Speaker 2: all of.
[30:27] Speaker 1: The enhancements, even even clean that up a little bit
[30:31] Speaker 1: is bullshit, right, Yeah, So this is like kind of exciting, yes,
[30:37] Speaker 1: and we're gonna find out later where this whole idea
[30:41] Speaker 1: came for for this, So who shot first? They need
[30:48] Speaker 1: to know because they can tell the trajectory of all
[30:51] Speaker 1: the bullets, like this is where this bullet came from.
[30:53] Speaker 1: This is where this bullet came from. But you can't
[30:55] Speaker 1: tell who shot first. Only Lake would know that, and
[30:58] Speaker 1: they can't question him. But you know, Stable is always
[31:00] Speaker 1: looking to ben the rules.
[31:01] Speaker 2: He's like, we can go check on him as friends,
[31:03] Speaker 2: see how he's doing, you know, bring him a little
[31:04] Speaker 2: edible arrangement. One thing is sv is not going to
[31:08] Speaker 2: do is follow the rules. Yeah.
[31:10] Speaker 1: Yeah, So in the hospital, Lake has been shot through
[31:15] Speaker 1: and through, which I've learned from the pit is where
[31:18] Speaker 1: you know, it goes all the way through in his.
[31:21] Speaker 2: Arm and his leg. But he'll live.
[31:22] Speaker 1: He's talking to them, and he doesn't want to talk
[31:24] Speaker 1: to them. He's like, uh, He's like, I'm not talking
[31:27] Speaker 1: to you guys, and Benson's like it doesn't look good, man.
[31:30] Speaker 1: You got to give us your statement and he's like, no,
[31:32] Speaker 1: I don't. And they can't question him for forty eight hours.
[31:36] Speaker 1: He's invoking Section one point eighteen oh nine, which is
[31:41] Speaker 1: which basically came about because of police corruption, and no
[31:45] Speaker 1: superior investigating officer can talk to him for two days.
[31:49] Speaker 1: It's called coerced testimony. So it's probably for the best.
[31:54] Speaker 1: But when I first watched this episode, I've watched it
[31:56] Speaker 1: through twice recently, and I was like, wait, what's this
[31:58] Speaker 1: random rule that you can't talk to him for forty
[32:00] Speaker 1: eight hours? And then I actually looked up the section
[32:02] Speaker 1: of the law. So Stabler goes, you go down this road,
[32:06] Speaker 1: there's no coming back, and he's like what is this about?
[32:08] Speaker 3: And Lake is just holding strong. He's quiet.
[32:10] Speaker 2: So they leave.
[32:12] Speaker 1: So at the precinct, they're confused. If it was a
[32:15] Speaker 1: justified shooting, why not just say so. We're getting some
[32:18] Speaker 1: history on Craiglik, the victim. He came up through the ranks,
[32:20] Speaker 1: not spectacular, but solid on patrol promoted to a detective
[32:24] Speaker 1: works out of the one four whitnesses say Lake and Craylick,
[32:27] Speaker 1: we're going out at it outside of the that precinct,
[32:31] Speaker 1: and they came up through the same house in Brooklyn,
[32:34] Speaker 1: so there's no, like on record beefs between them. But
[32:37] Speaker 1: Craigan's like dig deeper. So Munch and Finn come in
[32:41] Speaker 1: and they have found a ticket stub to Philly. It
[32:45] Speaker 1: likes apartment, and then he dumped his phones and he
[32:48] Speaker 1: goes to Philly at the same time every month. Finn
[32:51] Speaker 1: has no idea why he'd be in Philly, and Benson
[32:53] Speaker 1: and Stabler arm buying. They're like, you're his partner, and
[32:55] Speaker 1: he goes, you know everything about Olivia and he goes,
[32:58] Speaker 1: i'd noticed if she disappeared once a month, and it's like,
[33:00] Speaker 1: does she seriously not take a weekend? She doesn't do
[33:02] Speaker 1: anything on off time, Like I don't know. Finn walks away.
[33:06] Speaker 1: He's like, I'm not here for this shit. At the hospital,
[33:09] Speaker 1: Finn is waiting for Lake when he comes out of
[33:12] Speaker 1: the bathroom, and Lake's like, you shouldn't be here, and
[33:14] Speaker 1: Finn's like, well neither should you, but here we are.
[33:16] Speaker 1: I'm all ears and Lake is like, clamming up, I'm
[33:19] Speaker 1: not telling you anything. Finn goes the guy I know
[33:22] Speaker 1: would only shoot in self defense and Lake's like, you
[33:25] Speaker 1: don't even know me Finn, and you never made any
[33:27] Speaker 1: effort to until now. And it's like you guys have
[33:29] Speaker 1: been only been working together for like one season, Like
[33:31] Speaker 1: give him some time. Finn's like, all you had to
[33:35] Speaker 1: do was pick up the phone. I would have backed
[33:36] Speaker 1: your play. And Lake's like I had it covered. And
[33:39] Speaker 1: then he's he asked him about Philly and Lake goes,
[33:41] Speaker 1: great cheese steaks. It's like he can't even make a
[33:44] Speaker 1: joke in a way that I like. Even when he
[33:46] Speaker 1: says the thing about the cheese stakes, I'm like, you're
[33:48] Speaker 1: being annoying, Like I don't know, he just know it's
[33:50] Speaker 1: the reason it's.
[33:51] Speaker 2: His last episode. I'm sure.
[33:52] Speaker 1: I'm sure that they were hearing, they were getting focused
[33:54] Speaker 1: testing and there was a lot of people like me
[33:56] Speaker 1: in there. But Finn's like, dude, we're trying to say
[34:00] Speaker 1: your ass, we're running blind.
[34:01] Speaker 3: Why won't you help us?
[34:02] Speaker 2: Help you?
[34:02] Speaker 1: And Lake's mom not talking, so Melinda is now we're
[34:07] Speaker 1: at Melinda's house. She's ruling Krylic's death by five gunshot wounds,
[34:11] Speaker 1: a homicide shock of shocks. One bullet hit the heart,
[34:15] Speaker 1: the second the spine. Either of those could have killed him.
[34:18] Speaker 1: And then there were non fatal shots that came from
[34:20] Speaker 1: behind upper right thigh, right butt cheek, and upper back.
[34:23] Speaker 1: Possibly the guy was running and then those shots took
[34:28] Speaker 1: him down and then whoever came over shot him, like
[34:31] Speaker 1: with shots to the chest and the spine. It feels
[34:34] Speaker 1: like the trajectory thing that you did would have like
[34:38] Speaker 1: proven whether that happened or not. Anyway, Melinda's like, yeah,
[34:41] Speaker 1: all your theories are plausible, but we don't know, Like
[34:44] Speaker 1: what does Lake say?
[34:45] Speaker 3: And Jack shit?
[34:46] Speaker 1: So all five shots came from Lake's glock, they said,
[34:51] Speaker 1: ballistics has said. And Stabler's like, maybe we should all
[34:54] Speaker 1: start accepting that this guy we barely liked killed another cop, right,
[34:58] Speaker 1: Like maybe we need to just come to grips. So
[35:01] Speaker 1: at the precinct finished showing the gang this cold case
[35:04] Speaker 1: file he found in Lake's desk.
[35:05] Speaker 2: It's from ten years ago in Brooklyn.
[35:07] Speaker 1: There's recent notes about reinterviewing the first responders and Ed
[35:10] Speaker 1: Kralek was one of them. And in walks Penelope Fielding
[35:14] Speaker 1: looking for munch. She explains how she and Lake know
[35:16] Speaker 1: each other from the vdoc Society, and she explains, like
[35:19] Speaker 1: what it is, and Fin's like, why would a cop
[35:21] Speaker 1: work cases that aren't even his in his spare time?
[35:24] Speaker 1: And she's like, freedom, we work without politics or bosses.
[35:29] Speaker 1: And speaking of bosses, Daddy Craigan comes out and is like, Benson,
[35:32] Speaker 1: stable or my office. Now in the office, Craigan is
[35:35] Speaker 1: laying into them, being like I specifically told you not
[35:38] Speaker 1: to question Lake, and Stabler's like, don't sweat it, Toots.
[35:41] Speaker 1: He didn't say anything, and She's like, well, good thing,
[35:44] Speaker 1: because it would have been inadmissible. And Stabler's like, how
[35:48] Speaker 1: do you think we solve this crime when we can't
[35:50] Speaker 1: talk to him for forty eight hours?
[35:51] Speaker 2: And that's when most crimes are solved.
[35:53] Speaker 1: And I love that also in regards to what we
[35:58] Speaker 1: talk about later in the episode, I'll just say that,
[36:00] Speaker 1: Novak says that's not her problem. Follow orders or stay
[36:05] Speaker 1: out of the way, and Novak storms out, and Kraigin's like, listen,
[36:08] Speaker 1: Lake killed a cop in what appears to be an
[36:10] Speaker 1: unprovoked shooting, and Benson is like, I think we should
[36:13] Speaker 1: wait for the evidence. What's the rush, and he goes,
[36:16] Speaker 1: If it were anywhere one else, he'd already be in
[36:18] Speaker 1: shackles to just do your job.
[36:19] Speaker 2: I don't get it. Who's rushing? Anything?
[36:21] Speaker 3: Like, who's who's rushing?
[36:24] Speaker 1: They're saying you can't talk to him, and Benson's like, cool,
[36:27] Speaker 1: let's just wait it out.
[36:28] Speaker 3: Craigan's like, do your job?
[36:30] Speaker 4: What?
[36:30] Speaker 2: Like? What? Okay? I don't get it. I don't I
[36:32] Speaker 2: don't get it.
[36:32] Speaker 1: Seems like there's some editing that happened here that doesn't
[36:34] Speaker 1: make sense anyway. At the hospital, Benson and Stablers show
[36:38] Speaker 1: up to what not talk to Lake again. I don't understand.
[36:40] Speaker 1: It has not been twenty forty eight hours yet. I
[36:43] Speaker 1: don't know why they're back there. And when they get there,
[36:45] Speaker 1: he's gone. Stabler's like he's running. Oh he's a running,
[36:49] Speaker 1: Like I didn't watch it.
[36:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like what.
[36:55] Speaker 1: Benson says, Well, the IV's pretty full, so he can't
[36:58] Speaker 1: be gone long. I'll get I'll get hospitals to you
[37:00] Speaker 1: al ready to help with the search. Stabler goes and
[37:02] Speaker 1: I'll get them to dump Finn's phone.
[37:04] Speaker 2: Why what?
[37:05] Speaker 1: Immediately, we're just turning our backs on our fellow, our
[37:09] Speaker 1: fellow squad right, Benson's like, you think he tipped off
[37:12] Speaker 1: Lake that we were on our way again, I ask
[37:14] Speaker 1: for what to what end?
[37:17] Speaker 3: What are they on their way to do that would
[37:18] Speaker 3: make Lake run?
[37:19] Speaker 1: He cannot speak to them, They cannot speak to him,
[37:22] Speaker 1: Like what is the deal? So Stabler really thinks that
[37:25] Speaker 1: Finn gave Lake the heads up that they were coming,
[37:28] Speaker 1: and that's why he's like, we're gonna dump Finn's phone.
[37:30] Speaker 1: Let's not ask him, let's just dump his phone. So
[37:32] Speaker 1: that's the end of Act two, bat I mean sorry.
[37:35] Speaker 1: Act one, Act two, Benson, Stabler and Daddykraigan are in
[37:38] Speaker 1: a walk and talk about how they searched the whole hospital.
[37:40] Speaker 2: They've got Leg's house underwatch, but they didn't get him.
[37:43] Speaker 2: He's in the wind.
[37:44] Speaker 1: Finn approaches and he goes, dumping my phones was a
[37:47] Speaker 1: bitch move, Stabler, and he goes, yeah, I called him,
[37:50] Speaker 1: but I didn't think he'd run. And Stabler's like, well
[37:52] Speaker 1: you should have stayed out of it, and Finn's like
[37:54] Speaker 1: he's my partner.
[37:54] Speaker 3: Like Stabler, in what world would you not have called Olibya?
[37:57] Speaker 1: You absolutely just you would have showed up with your
[38:00] Speaker 1: car and worked out a thing and said get in,
[38:02] Speaker 1: I'm driving you into the mountains like.
[38:04] Speaker 2: You'd have done it. So I guess no loyalty towards
[38:07] Speaker 2: Finn at all, Like damn, well.
[38:10] Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember like the episode where Stabler and
[38:14] Speaker 1: Finn really hate each other, and I only remember it's
[38:16] Speaker 1: the one where Kathleen stole the credit card.
[38:19] Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, is what season is that? Oh it's season ten,
[38:25] Speaker 2: So it's the next season. Oh wow, okay, so there.
[38:29] Speaker 1: This is like setting up tension between I think Finn
[38:32] Speaker 1: and Stabler like that. There is tension between them. This
[38:34] Speaker 1: episode is like really setting it up, because when.
[38:37] Speaker 2: You watch a little bit out of order like we do,
[38:39] Speaker 2: it's kind of like, wait, when did that happen? And
[38:43] Speaker 2: that's the beginning, Yeah we caught it. Yeah. So and
[38:48] Speaker 2: Finn is always I mean, Finn starts out the episode,
[38:50] Speaker 2: the season, the series as a Republican. He changes a lot.
[38:53] Speaker 2: I don't think he likes a lot of them at
[38:54] Speaker 2: the beginning, you know, And but I Finn also gives
[38:58] Speaker 2: you the vibe of like work home separate. Yeah. They
[39:01] Speaker 2: don't need to know my full personality. They don't need
[39:04] Speaker 2: to know what I'm doing. I have my life and
[39:06] Speaker 2: I don't give a.
[39:06] Speaker 1: Fuck because I feel like later when they introduce his son,
[39:09] Speaker 1: everyone's like whoaa whoa wa, Like I feel like no
[39:11] Speaker 1: one even knows so yeah, yeah, And then also the
[39:15] Speaker 1: idea that he's just like who would do the vdoc society? Like,
[39:18] Speaker 1: in what world is am I not smoking weed and
[39:21] Speaker 1: playing video games in my free time?
[39:22] Speaker 2: Why would I be solving cold cases? Fuck that?
[39:26] Speaker 1: So anyway, Craigan's like, both of you, shut the fuck
[39:29] Speaker 1: up because they're arguing, and he says Lake isn't even
[39:31] Speaker 1: our problem anymore. The Fugitive Apprehension Team, which they abbreviate
[39:35] Speaker 1: is FAT, and they keep calling it fat the whole time,
[39:39] Speaker 1: as if you wouldn't just call it fat. Fat will
[39:42] Speaker 1: take it from here. And Finn's like, those dudes just
[39:46] Speaker 1: work out and shoot guns. They're gonna kill Lake and
[39:49] Speaker 1: they're like, that's not how FAT works.
[39:50] Speaker 3: And it's like, what is that?
[39:52] Speaker 2: We've never heard of the Fugitive Apprehension Team before, and
[39:55] Speaker 2: I don't think we hear about it ever again.
[39:56] Speaker 3: I think it gets.
[39:57] Speaker 1: Fully we've had fugitive escape before on this show. I
[40:01] Speaker 1: don't remember there ever being besides ESU, you know, there's
[40:04] Speaker 1: like the guys that come in with the Battering Rams,
[40:06] Speaker 1: but like, I've never heard of this fat team before,
[40:09] Speaker 1: but here they are all over this episode.
[40:11] Speaker 3: So Krailis got.
[40:12] Speaker 1: A lot of friends on the street who want to
[40:14] Speaker 1: see Lake dead at least let me look for him.
[40:16] Speaker 1: Finn wants to know, and Stabler's being super cool as usual,
[40:20] Speaker 1: and he's like, where are you gonna start. You don't
[40:22] Speaker 1: even know the guy, And Finn's like, I know he
[40:25] Speaker 1: didn't do it, and Stabler's like, but there's three bullet
[40:27] Speaker 1: holes in this guy krayliks back that begged to differ,
[40:32] Speaker 1: and he's like, do you ever think that the force
[40:34] Speaker 1: behind the first two bullets maybe spun Kraylick around. We're
[40:37] Speaker 1: trained to keep shooting until the subject is down, because like,
[40:40] Speaker 1: those three non fatal shots could have been just to
[40:43] Speaker 1: drop him. You know, you're assuming that the fatal shots
[40:46] Speaker 1: came first. Benson points out, and Craigan says, to have
[40:50] Speaker 1: ballistics check out which scenario fits. Craigan asks if they
[40:54] Speaker 1: checked out fielding Penelope, who's still hanging around, and Benson's like, no,
[40:58] Speaker 1: she's legit.
[40:59] Speaker 2: She lists her accomplishments. She's like, run a lab she's
[41:01] Speaker 2: been a detective and she's done it all.
[41:03] Speaker 1: And Cragan's like, well, I want to get her statement
[41:06] Speaker 1: and then kick her ass to the curb. And Benson's like, yeah,
[41:09] Speaker 1: but like the connection between Lake and Kralik is a
[41:11] Speaker 1: cold case, or maybe she can help us, And Craigan's like,
[41:14] Speaker 1: I know all about the VDOC society and I'm SODA's
[41:16] Speaker 1: the brass and we're passing.
[41:17] Speaker 2: We're hard passing on them. We don't want that.
[41:20] Speaker 1: So, you know, because most of the people that move
[41:23] Speaker 1: up in the NYPD are people that just want glory
[41:25] Speaker 1: and they don't want any secret society coming and taking
[41:28] Speaker 1: their you know, their win. Benson points out, well, Lake
[41:31] Speaker 1: held onto this case for ten years. He must have
[41:33] Speaker 1: talked to her about it.
[41:34] Speaker 2: This woman.
[41:35] Speaker 1: So Finn is updating the gang and Penelope on the
[41:38] Speaker 1: whole case. Fourteen year old Alisa Hernandez was found raped
[41:42] Speaker 1: and strangled in a vacant lot ten years ago. She
[41:45] Speaker 1: was last seen leaving school with her bestie, Cecilia Cruz.
[41:48] Speaker 1: When they questioned Cecilia, she said that they split up.
[41:53] Speaker 1: They usually walk home together, but this day they split
[41:55] Speaker 1: up and she didn't see anything. Penelope goes she was lying.
[41:58] Speaker 1: Her statement is full of elliptical pauses, which indicate invention.
[42:03] Speaker 2: I like that sentence. I like that idea that what's
[42:06] Speaker 2: an elliptical pause like? And then it's just pauses like,
[42:12] Speaker 2: you know, just long. But what if it was one dot,
[42:16] Speaker 2: like I would say, it's not like going oh and
[42:18] Speaker 2: then me and Lisa went to Krispy Kreme, you know
[42:21] Speaker 2: it's going and then we went you know, I think
[42:25] Speaker 2: it's like just taking a little bit longer and like
[42:27] Speaker 2: you're truly trying to think of what your next thing
[42:29] Speaker 2: is that you're going to say, you know, so I
[42:31] Speaker 2: think that's the elliptical pauses, which I mean, there must
[42:34] Speaker 2: be tons of shit that you study and like to
[42:36] Speaker 2: weed out lying.
[42:39] Speaker 1: But the victim was undocumented. Alisa Hernandez was undocumented. She
[42:45] Speaker 1: was in the country illegally, according to Benson, and they
[42:48] Speaker 1: think that maybe Cecilia, her friend, was in the same
[42:50] Speaker 1: boat and that could have caused her to lie or
[42:54] Speaker 1: not want to get involved or whatever. Also, Craylic, they noticed,
[42:58] Speaker 1: responded to this call even though it was outside his sector.
[43:02] Speaker 1: So the killer you also used a condom and tried
[43:06] Speaker 1: to wipe the body down. And Benson's like, yeah, but
[43:08] Speaker 1: a lot of them do that, and Penelope goes, yeah,
[43:10] Speaker 1: but they didn't. Ten years ago, DNA was a new thing.
[43:13] Speaker 1: Most killers were not. I mean, let's remember Richard Ramirez
[43:16] Speaker 1: was like jerking off and barfing in the middle of
[43:18] Speaker 1: a room after he killed someone. Like, so people were
[43:21] Speaker 1: not doing that. But a cop would have forensic knowledge,
[43:24] Speaker 1: like they would know to do that. So kraylk got
[43:28] Speaker 1: a call from a payphone to his cell phone thirty
[43:31] Speaker 1: minutes before the shooting. But would Lake have Why would
[43:35] Speaker 1: Lake have met him in such an isolated spot, maybe
[43:38] Speaker 1: if he thought this was his chance to get the truth.
[43:41] Speaker 1: So Munch says, let's run a Lisa's rape kit. So
[43:45] Speaker 1: they're in this massive rape kit warehouse and Munch is
[43:48] Speaker 1: like talking to the guy, the officer that's working it, goes,
[43:51] Speaker 1: I thought, you guys got federal funding to get these
[43:53] Speaker 1: rape kits into COTIS. And the cop working in there goes,
[43:56] Speaker 1: it was twelve million bucks. We had twenty thousand kits.
[43:59] Speaker 1: You do the math. So the math is six hundred
[44:01] Speaker 1: dollars per kit. Is that not enough to Is that
[44:04] Speaker 1: not enough to enter them into Codis? I mean, like,
[44:06] Speaker 1: I'm sure that honestly, just the way hospitals charge for everything,
[44:09] Speaker 1: or labs charge for everything, it would be a lot
[44:12] Speaker 1: to process a rape kit.
[44:13] Speaker 2: But six hundred dollars per kit's not like nothing, you know.
[44:18] Speaker 1: And so I'm sure somebody works in a lab that
[44:21] Speaker 1: listens to our show that's going to say, actually, it
[44:22] Speaker 1: costs like two thousand dollars to you know, process each
[44:27] Speaker 1: kit and then enter it. But still feels like you
[44:29] Speaker 1: could have gotten a lot done with twelve million bucks.
[44:32] Speaker 1: So he finds a Lisa's kit and they can immediately
[44:34] Speaker 1: tell that it's been damaged, and the guy explains, yeah,
[44:36] Speaker 1: there was a flood in evidence storage, and he goes,
[44:39] Speaker 1: I already told all of this to the two other dicks.
[44:41] Speaker 1: And one dick is Lake and he wanted the specimen
[44:45] Speaker 1: fast tracked, but you can't do that without command approval.
[44:48] Speaker 1: And the other dick is Kralik. So Munch says, Craigan
[44:53] Speaker 1: wants it rushed. I'm gonna take it in myself. So
[44:55] Speaker 1: now we're at a diner and Finn is meeting up
[44:57] Speaker 1: with Penelope and she's like, I'm getting the cold shoulder
[44:59] Speaker 1: in your room, and she goes, if you can get
[45:02] Speaker 1: me the three D scans, I can figure out the
[45:04] Speaker 1: most realistic scenario for what happened in that lot, And
[45:06] Speaker 1: Finn's like, we can also do that, and Penelope's like, yeah,
[45:09] Speaker 1: but how long is it going to take? What about
[45:12] Speaker 1: all the other pressing cases you guys have, Like I
[45:15] Speaker 1: can work on this alone. And it's like, does she
[45:16] Speaker 1: not have a job. I'm confused if she's like retired.
[45:18] Speaker 1: She seems quite young. And Finn's like, sorry, I can't
[45:21] Speaker 1: help you. I'm not like turning over, you know, evidence.
[45:24] Speaker 1: It's also like that would blow the case, right, Like
[45:27] Speaker 1: I think that would blow the case to give it
[45:30] Speaker 1: to somebody outside of the proper channels, right, She says,
[45:36] Speaker 1: proving Kraylik is a rapist isn't going to be enough
[45:38] Speaker 1: to clear Chester. She knows that he didn't shoot first,
[45:43] Speaker 1: and you know, she's like, have you heard anything. Finn's like,
[45:46] Speaker 1: no word from him, but you know he shot twice
[45:49] Speaker 1: and he's hobbling around Manhattan, and Penelope's.
[45:51] Speaker 2: Like, but he's resourceful. She wants to bang him really
[45:53] Speaker 2: badly if she hasn't already.
[45:55] Speaker 1: She observes that Finn seems pretty angry, and he's like, yeah, well,
[45:59] Speaker 1: I don't really know my partner. And Penelope's like, you
[46:02] Speaker 1: think he didn't trust you, but he was really just
[46:04] Speaker 1: trying to earn your respect, and she goes, he said
[46:07] Speaker 1: you were a hard person to know, and you know,
[46:10] Speaker 1: Finn's like, like, he's much better, and then she goes,
[46:13] Speaker 1: you know, you could try his ex partner, Wesley Meadows.
[46:15] Speaker 2: They kept in touch. So now we're catching up with.
[46:18] Speaker 1: Wesley Meadows at a hot dog cart Classic and he
[46:22] Speaker 1: is played by Robert Toronto.
[46:24] Speaker 3: Another Dick Wolf Bingo card.
[46:27] Speaker 1: This guy multiple EPs of SVU original Recipe Criminal Incent
[46:31] Speaker 1: and even Oc. He's actually in the shadow Work episode
[46:34] Speaker 1: that we just referenced kind of recently, so this guy's
[46:37] Speaker 1: been in a ton of episodes. He says, I haven't
[46:40] Speaker 1: heard from Lake in like six months, but whenever we talk,
[46:42] Speaker 1: it's the same convo. It's Alisa Hernandez. This was his
[46:45] Speaker 1: first case and it haunted him. And Meadows thinks that
[46:49] Speaker 1: Cecilia was lying through her teeth.
[46:50] Speaker 2: He's like, yeah, like we always kind of knew and
[46:53] Speaker 2: we thought that she was a victim as well.
[46:55] Speaker 1: We saw some bruises. She couldn't look us in the eye,
[46:58] Speaker 1: she couldn't stand to be touched. My gut was screaming,
[47:01] Speaker 1: but he said, I don't know what else to tell you.
[47:03] Speaker 1: It was ten years ago. All I remember was hitting
[47:06] Speaker 1: a wall. Most people in the neighborhood were undocumented, nobody
[47:09] Speaker 1: would talk. The Hernandez family isn't really around anymore, but
[47:13] Speaker 1: I did hear that they got amnesty, so you might
[47:15] Speaker 1: be able to track them down. And he's aggressively showcasing
[47:19] Speaker 1: this generic cola that he's drinking. He's drinking like a
[47:22] Speaker 1: massive canna, just says cola on the side and he
[47:24] Speaker 1: just keeps taking SIPs and it was making me laugh. Okay,
[47:27] Speaker 1: So in the next scene, they're talking to Elisa's father
[47:31] Speaker 1: at a fruit packing plant and he's like, yeah, she
[47:35] Speaker 1: got murdered in a country that I told my family
[47:37] Speaker 1: was safe, and they all went back to El Salvador,
[47:39] Speaker 1: but I couldn't leave because I think someone should stay
[47:41] Speaker 1: with Alisa and visit her grave. It's like really heartbreaking.
[47:44] Speaker 1: He's like, I moved my family here for a better future,
[47:46] Speaker 1: and my daughter was murdered. And they tell him we
[47:49] Speaker 1: think Cecilia saw something, and he's like, no way, she
[47:52] Speaker 1: would have told me, and they're like, dude, she was
[47:54] Speaker 1: fourteen years old. She was probably scared she would get
[47:57] Speaker 1: in trouble, and we think she was sexually assaulted as well.
[48:00] Speaker 1: And he goes, oh, yeah, well, Lake called me last
[48:04] Speaker 1: night trying to get in touch with Cecilia. I told
[48:06] Speaker 1: him she works as a seamstress downtown. Here we go,
[48:09] Speaker 1: We're at this clothing place.
[48:11] Speaker 2: The head seamstress is like, what's with all the cops,
[48:14] Speaker 2: three of you in two days, and she's like, yeah,
[48:17] Speaker 2: it was annoyed when Cecilia said she had to go,
[48:19] Speaker 2: but the cop explained it was about a rape. But
[48:21] Speaker 2: you know, we're on a deadline.
[48:22] Speaker 1: And then they flash a picture of Chester and she goes, yep,
[48:26] Speaker 1: that's him.
[48:26] Speaker 2: The dude was bleeding all over the floor.
[48:28] Speaker 1: Cecilia had to take him out to go to the
[48:30] Speaker 1: hospital and it was around one am. So now Benson
[48:32] Speaker 1: and Stabler are concerned with why is Lake involving a
[48:35] Speaker 1: civilian in his whole jail break situation and now she's
[48:39] Speaker 1: his hostage technically, So then fade to commercial. When we
[48:44] Speaker 1: come back, Craigan, Benson and Stabler again are walking and talking.
[48:47] Speaker 1: They still have no clue where Lake is. So when
[48:49] Speaker 1: they walk into the precinct. Fins like, oh, so now
[48:51] Speaker 1: the news is reporting that Lake has a hostage who
[48:53] Speaker 1: gave him that? And then everybody starts shitting on Lake
[48:55] Speaker 1: for a little while about being a dumb ass and
[48:57] Speaker 1: taking her in the first place, and like no one
[48:59] Speaker 1: understands it. Finn's like, I still think he must have
[49:02] Speaker 1: had a good reason, right q CSU Detective Ryan o'haller
[49:06] Speaker 1: and letting us know that done done.
[49:08] Speaker 2: There was a third shooter in that parking lot. I
[49:12] Speaker 2: don't understand why they didn't immediately know that from the
[49:15] Speaker 2: old three sixty machine, Like, if you can tell where
[49:18] Speaker 2: all these shots are from? So apparently thirty one shots
[49:21] Speaker 2: were fired, all the same brand of Ammo all NYPD
[49:25] Speaker 2: issued ten from Lake's gun, fifteen from Kralix, the other
[49:30] Speaker 2: six came from another source. Damn big shooting. Yeah, so.
[49:36] Speaker 1: But this is like what's not this is what's confusing
[49:39] Speaker 1: to me too, is like they said ballistics said that
[49:41] Speaker 1: all five shots to Kralik came from Chester's gun.
[49:46] Speaker 2: I know, but whatever.
[49:47] Speaker 1: So we're looking at the three sixty footage and we
[49:50] Speaker 1: can seybe.
[49:51] Speaker 2: The other bullets didn't land. Maybe they're just scattered and well,
[49:57] Speaker 2: Chester shot ten Chester shot ten.
[49:59] Speaker 1: Five hit the guy, five are scattered, five or they
[50:02] Speaker 1: find the shellcasings. So they're looking at the footage and
[50:06] Speaker 1: they can see exactly where and how Lake was standing
[50:09] Speaker 1: when he fired. It seems like he shot at Kraylik
[50:12] Speaker 1: and he spun around, exactly what Finn suggested. But he
[50:16] Speaker 1: was already falling from someone else's bullets and that was
[50:22] Speaker 1: when he got hit with the heart and the spine shot.
[50:25] Speaker 1: But again they said that those that he was only
[50:29] Speaker 1: hit with Chester's bullets, so I don't understand. And then
[50:32] Speaker 1: Lake started firing some shots into a void located like
[50:35] Speaker 1: over here. They point out on the thing and they're like,
[50:38] Speaker 1: were there any shellcasings in the void area?
[50:40] Speaker 2: No, the guy policed his brass.
[50:42] Speaker 1: You have so many like phrases in the NYPBD policing.
[50:47] Speaker 1: Your brass is picking up your own shell casing so
[50:49] Speaker 1: you don't get in trouble for shooting people. I guess
[50:51] Speaker 1: the mystery shooter fired six shots at Lake. Two got him,
[50:56] Speaker 1: and the other four were found at the scene. Then
[50:59] Speaker 1: it said that gun was not in the system. How
[51:02] Speaker 1: would they know what the gun was? They didn't find
[51:04] Speaker 1: the gun, and so they go if it's a cop.
[51:08] Speaker 1: I'm thinking it's a drop gun, Finn says. And a
[51:11] Speaker 1: drop gun, as we can deduce, is an illicit backup
[51:14] Speaker 1: weapon carried by someone, typically a police officer, who has
[51:17] Speaker 1: a primary weapon that ballistics could easily match up to,
[51:21] Speaker 1: and hence the illegal gun in the case. So I
[51:24] Speaker 1: guess that's maybe how they found the gun. They checked
[51:28] Speaker 1: the striations on the bullets that hit Lake, and they
[51:32] Speaker 1: did not find that gun in the system. They could
[51:34] Speaker 1: not find those I didn't realize that these striations were
[51:37] Speaker 1: like fingerprints and that they would match to a specific gun.
[51:40] Speaker 2: I thought they would go to like a type of gun.
[51:41] Speaker 2: But maybe I'm incorrect.
[51:43] Speaker 1: So it's basically an illegal gun in case they have
[51:45] Speaker 1: to make someone dead without being found out. So maybe
[51:48] Speaker 1: Lake took Cecilia Cruz to protect her. They're saying, if
[51:51] Speaker 1: this is another dirty cop, it could be someone who
[51:53] Speaker 1: was close to Kralic ten years ago. Let's talk to
[51:55] Speaker 1: Krelik's widow and see who all his besties are. So
[51:58] Speaker 1: Benson inable or show up at Casa Kraylic and immediately
[52:02] Speaker 1: an angry cop is like what are you doing here?
[52:04] Speaker 1: And the wife, Mary Kralic, is like let them in,
[52:07] Speaker 1: and she looks really familiar to me, and it's because
[52:10] Speaker 1: her name is Eva Kaminski and she's in the episode
[52:13] Speaker 1: Decaying Morality. She plays the mom Jamie mcshane's wife, remember
[52:19] Speaker 1: in that episode, Yes, Yes, what's the girl's name, Porsche
[52:24] Speaker 1: Hailey Lou Richardson. Yeah, Hailee Lolu Richardson. So she plays
[52:27] Speaker 1: Hailey U Richards's mom in that episode. So, and she's
[52:31] Speaker 1: been an other dick wolf, I think. But so, the
[52:34] Speaker 1: dick guy at the door is named Bill Jensen. He
[52:37] Speaker 1: introduces the other two cops as like Tom Crane and
[52:40] Speaker 1: some other guy that we don't really care about that much.
[52:43] Speaker 1: And they're in the living room too, and Tom Crane
[52:45] Speaker 1: is there and he's with Fat Okay and the Fugitive
[52:49] Speaker 1: Apprehension team and the cops start arguing about Lake and
[52:53] Speaker 1: they're like maybe he'll bleed out, and like maybe he'll
[52:56] Speaker 1: die while he's on the run, and Mary's like, shut
[52:59] Speaker 1: the fuck up. I don't want him dead. I want
[53:01] Speaker 1: to understand why he killed my husband. And Benson's like,
[53:04] Speaker 1: we're working on that, ma'am. And she asks, is there
[53:06] Speaker 1: anyone who Crayley is close to? And she gets real
[53:09] Speaker 1: quiet because it's all these losers that are standing in
[53:11] Speaker 1: the room right now.
[53:11] Speaker 3: It's like, you know, are the loser friends in the
[53:14] Speaker 3: room with us?
[53:15] Speaker 2: Yes, they are.
[53:16] Speaker 1: The three cops are like, are you looking at us?
[53:19] Speaker 1: You're looking to justified murder. Get out of here. So
[53:22] Speaker 1: like they immediately overreact and they're like, definitely nothing to
[53:25] Speaker 1: hide with these three sweethearts, you know. So Benson says
[53:29] Speaker 1: when they're outside, she goes, it's gonna kill this woman
[53:31] Speaker 1: when she finds out who her husband really was. And
[53:33] Speaker 1: Stabler's still pissed at Lake, like why did he just
[53:36] Speaker 1: tell us who this third shooter is? And Benson's like,
[53:40] Speaker 1: we can't be sure he saw him. He was standing
[53:42] Speaker 1: in a dark void, like it was dark outside. There
[53:45] Speaker 1: were bullets flying everywhere. And then Benson says, Stabler's like,
[53:48] Speaker 1: what's your problem? And he's like butt hurt that Lake
[53:51] Speaker 1: didn't trust them, and it's like that. She's like, well then,
[53:55] Speaker 1: so we should have looked at Lake, not Finn, And
[53:58] Speaker 1: she's like you bringing up like she brings up, like
[54:01] Speaker 1: you going behind Finn's back with the phone dump. You know,
[54:04] Speaker 1: he's a straight, straight shooter, like you could have just
[54:06] Speaker 1: asked him you got to make this right. But it's
[54:08] Speaker 1: also like the way that Benson is subtly being like,
[54:11] Speaker 1: oh you think that the other cops in our squad.
[54:13] Speaker 2: Don't trust us or trust you.
[54:16] Speaker 1: I wonder why you're dumping their phones at a moment's notice,
[54:19] Speaker 1: Like you don't.
[54:20] Speaker 3: You're like a hot head, you know.
[54:22] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[54:22] Speaker 1: So back inside the sixteenth, Finn says, nothing's popping on Jensen,
[54:27] Speaker 1: Crane or Foster, but he's waiting for their jackets. They've
[54:31] Speaker 1: all known Kralik for a long time, okay. Meanwhile, Munch
[54:35] Speaker 1: gets a call from the lab. The DNA under Elisa's
[54:38] Speaker 1: fingernails matches Kraylis and there was a second seamen sample found,
[54:42] Speaker 1: but it was too degraded. It was only a partial profile,
[54:46] Speaker 1: and Finn's like, fing goes this guy the quad god,
[54:49] Speaker 1: he's gonna skate And Munch is like, well, we can
[54:53] Speaker 1: still get him on a tempted murder of a cop,
[54:55] Speaker 1: and Finn's like, it's that's a parole thing, Like I mean,
[54:58] Speaker 1: it's like not good enough for Finn. He's like, I
[55:00] Speaker 1: want this guy in jail for life. And Craigan walks
[55:03] Speaker 1: in with the news done done. ESU has Lake trapped
[55:06] Speaker 1: in an abandoned building. Okay, So we zoom up to
[55:08] Speaker 1: the scene and a cop is confirming that Lake is
[55:11] Speaker 1: armed the ESU guys, yes, sir, you're acting crazy crazy
[55:15] Speaker 1: an abandoned building, Like and why are they still trying
[55:18] Speaker 1: to have his back?
[55:19] Speaker 2: Like even those stablers pissed me off. It's like, fuck
[55:22] Speaker 2: Chester Finn. You don't even like him, Like it's all weird.
[55:25] Speaker 2: Cops are weird. It's so culty. Yeah, yeah, it's Redhead.
[55:30] Speaker 2: I know him, and it's like he comes to you
[55:32] Speaker 2: once a month and you, guys fuck after your little
[55:34] Speaker 2: meetings and then you sit with all your little forensic papers. Yeah.
[55:39] Speaker 1: Also not for nothing, but like if this girl was murdered,
[55:43] Speaker 1: why was SVU not on it? I think Chester came
[55:46] Speaker 1: from homicide or something like, I don't think he came
[55:48] Speaker 1: from sv another SVU, So it's weird like that. He's
[55:51] Speaker 1: we always have to be like, oh, it's the it's
[55:53] Speaker 1: the one case that haunted him because it was his
[55:54] Speaker 1: first one.
[55:55] Speaker 2: Like I don't even know why he was on it.
[55:57] Speaker 1: So they zoom up to the scene and there's an
[55:59] Speaker 1: ESU cop outside that's like running everything, and he's confirming
[56:02] Speaker 1: that Lake is armed.
[56:03] Speaker 3: They're like, how'd you find him?
[56:04] Speaker 1: And he goes a cashier notice Cecilia buying too many
[56:07] Speaker 1: medical supplies and called it in.
[56:09] Speaker 2: Like there was a bolo out on her.
[56:10] Speaker 1: It wasn't like, wow, you're buying too much gauze lady,
[56:12] Speaker 1: like she recognized her, like this is weird. And then
[56:16] Speaker 1: fat pinpointed the location so much fat talk. While they're
[56:20] Speaker 1: talking to this guy, Finn just starts strolling into the
[56:23] Speaker 1: building and the ESU guys like what the fuck and
[56:25] Speaker 1: lives like, you don't get it that's his partner, and
[56:27] Speaker 1: the guy goes, I don't give a fuck if it's
[56:29] Speaker 1: his long lost brother, and then Benson's like, you want
[56:32] Speaker 1: this takedown to go blood free? You let him work, Okay,
[56:36] Speaker 1: That's all you got to say to an ESU guy inside.
[56:39] Speaker 1: Lake comes upon Finn from behind and he goes, you're
[56:42] Speaker 1: not going to shoot me in the back, and he goes, yeah,
[56:44] Speaker 1: only because I'm low on AMMO. And Cecilia is there too,
[56:47] Speaker 1: and Finn's like, come on, hand over the gun and
[56:49] Speaker 1: let's go. And Lake's like, yeah, you excited for the
[56:51] Speaker 1: purp walk and he goes, well, someone's got to take credit.
[56:54] Speaker 2: It might as well be me.
[56:56] Speaker 1: It's so confusing all their relationships with each other right now.
[57:00] Speaker 1: And I guess this is supposed to be banter among friends,
[57:02] Speaker 1: but like the problem here for me is like I
[57:07] Speaker 1: just don't see a fucking microscopic shred of chemistry between
[57:10] Speaker 1: these two. Like I have a better rapport with my
[57:12] Speaker 1: dry cleaner than these two do. So it's like I
[57:15] Speaker 1: can't like get invested in this like partnership or this friendship,
[57:20] Speaker 1: like having this moment, you know, because I'm like, oh,
[57:23] Speaker 1: I don't care. I mean imagine this was like I
[57:26] Speaker 1: don't know Finn and Munch, like that would be insane.
[57:28] Speaker 1: You'd be like you would never not tell him, you
[57:30] Speaker 1: would never, you know, Like I just I'm not that
[57:33] Speaker 1: invested with these two. So anyway, Lake knows that ESU
[57:38] Speaker 1: is getting into position because he can hear on Finn's
[57:40] Speaker 1: walkie and Finn's like yeah, and the flashbangs are next,
[57:42] Speaker 1: like you know how this goes? And Lake's like, what,
[57:44] Speaker 1: no negotiation And He's like, dog, she brought you, she
[57:48] Speaker 1: brought you bandages. That makes her an accomplice to the
[57:51] Speaker 1: felony skip and Lake's not gonna let him take him
[57:54] Speaker 1: in and Finn's like, dude, we know what's up. We
[57:56] Speaker 1: followed your breadcrumbs. We know Krylic as a rapist who
[57:59] Speaker 1: was the third shooter? And Lake's like, I didn't get
[58:01] Speaker 1: a good look. It was dark, ei, there were bullets everywhere.
[58:04] Speaker 1: And then he goes, how'd you get lured? And he goes,
[58:06] Speaker 1: I got a call from a guy named Bill Jensen.
[58:09] Speaker 1: He said he had information, and when I showed up,
[58:11] Speaker 1: they just opened fire. Cecilia says, do we believe him?
[58:16] Speaker 1: But I believe him too, But it's like, you guys
[58:17] Speaker 1: couldn't meet at like a diner in a different part
[58:20] Speaker 1: of town. Why are you meeting in an empty parking lot.
[58:22] Speaker 1: It's like really stupid when you kind of suspect already
[58:27] Speaker 1: that it could be these guys, Like was Lake already there?
[58:30] Speaker 1: He already thought about that it might have been them,
[58:32] Speaker 1: or no, maybe Lake just wanted to reinterview them. He
[58:36] Speaker 1: didn't even realize it was going to be all that,
[58:39] Speaker 1: that they were going to be implicated until they started
[58:41] Speaker 1: shooting at him, and then he realized, yeah, right, okay,
[58:45] Speaker 1: So Cecilia goes, I don't know his name, but I'll
[58:48] Speaker 1: never forget his face. He raped me and I'll testify.
[58:51] Speaker 1: I'll tell whoever will listen. So back at the house,
[58:54] Speaker 1: Munch is telling Craigan that that back in the day,
[58:56] Speaker 1: Kralik's shadow during his academy days was taught miss Crane,
[59:01] Speaker 1: who has a record for excessive force, sexual abuse, and
[59:04] Speaker 1: intimidation complaints. My question and your question is their question,
[59:08] Speaker 1: how is this guy still a fucking cop? All of
[59:11] Speaker 1: his victims had records and they all recanted. CCRB cleared him,
[59:16] Speaker 1: and he's currently on you guessed it, fat Okay, he's
[59:19] Speaker 1: on the fucking what is it?
[59:22] Speaker 2: Felony apprehension team.
[59:24] Speaker 1: So that Crane is the guy who was there at
[59:27] Speaker 1: the woman's house being like at the wife's house, being like,
[59:30] Speaker 1: we're gonna get this guy, Like I'm I work with
[59:32] Speaker 1: this team. We're gonna bring him in. So we cut
[59:35] Speaker 1: to this guy Crane on a rooftop. He's got his
[59:37] Speaker 1: eyes on Lake through the window. We can see the
[59:39] Speaker 1: POV through like the site he has like he almost
[59:42] Speaker 1: has a shot on Lake and he's holding a sniper
[59:45] Speaker 1: rifle just waiting to take the shot, and just in
[59:47] Speaker 1: the nick of time, Sabler puts his gun up to
[59:49] Speaker 1: the guy's temple and goes, squeeze that trigger and you'll
[59:51] Speaker 1: be dead before the slug leaves the pipe. And then
[59:54] Speaker 1: the guy puts his hand up. Benson's right there, cuffs
[59:57] Speaker 1: him and we got him. Now, well we are fast forwarding.
[1:00:01] Speaker 1: This guy does not get to go to cement room bars,
[1:00:03] Speaker 1: he does not pass go, he does.
[1:00:05] Speaker 2: Not collect to orderd dollars.
[1:00:06] Speaker 1: He's in court and Cecilia is on the stand and
[1:00:09] Speaker 1: she and Alsa. She says, we're walking home from school.
[1:00:12] Speaker 1: She says they got caught in the middle of a
[1:00:14] Speaker 1: fight and that the two cops came to break it up.
[1:00:16] Speaker 3: And it's Novak questioning her on the stand right now.
[1:00:19] Speaker 1: And the two cops said they'd give us a ride home,
[1:00:22] Speaker 1: so we got in the back seat. They took turns
[1:00:24] Speaker 1: raping us, she said. And she says it felt like
[1:00:26] Speaker 1: it went on forever. And what happened with Alsa, well,
[1:00:30] Speaker 1: she fought back. She was scratching and clawing. He punched her,
[1:00:34] Speaker 1: but she wouldn't stop screaming. And then he put his
[1:00:36] Speaker 1: hands around her throat and.
[1:00:37] Speaker 2: Squeezed, and then she but I think it's Kraylic that
[1:00:43] Speaker 2: does that.
[1:00:44] Speaker 3: It's Craylic that does that.
[1:00:45] Speaker 1: And then they ask her to identify one of any
[1:00:47] Speaker 1: of the men that are there, and she identifies Thomas
[1:00:50] Speaker 1: Crane sitting behind the defence table and she goes. They're like, well,
[1:00:53] Speaker 1: why didn't they kill you too? And she's like, well,
[1:00:55] Speaker 1: I begged for my life. I promise not to tell.
[1:00:58] Speaker 1: And he was really pissed at officer Crely had lost
[1:01:00] Speaker 1: his control and had murdered I mean, I think their
[1:01:06] Speaker 1: plan was just to do whatever they wanted with them
[1:01:08] Speaker 1: and then let them go. But Kralik, you know, lost
[1:01:11] Speaker 1: is school killed Elisa. So then when the two stop
[1:01:14] Speaker 1: cops started arguing, she booked it.
[1:01:16] Speaker 2: She got away.
[1:01:18] Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe that she would live
[1:01:20] Speaker 1: for ten years out in the open and able to
[1:01:22] Speaker 1: be found where with these guys not somehow finding her
[1:01:25] Speaker 1: and getting rid of her.
[1:01:27] Speaker 2: But I knew that she was scared. Yeah, maybe yeah.
[1:01:32] Speaker 1: And Crane's lawyer is, oh, fuck, it's Viola Davis. Okay,
[1:01:36] Speaker 1: we don't we hate to see it because she's good.
[1:01:38] Speaker 1: She's defense attorney Donna Emmett. And she immediately asks Cecilia,
[1:01:43] Speaker 1: when did you become a citizen? And Casey objects, but
[1:01:45] Speaker 1: Viola Davis is like, well, it goes to witness veracity,
[1:01:49] Speaker 1: and fucking Petrowsky goes for it, which I don't understand
[1:01:52] Speaker 1: why that, like, like, if you're here illegally, if in
[1:01:58] Speaker 1: this country, then our recent to trust you as a witness,
[1:02:01] Speaker 1: like which is bullshit?
[1:02:04] Speaker 3: Like veracity is like the truth of something.
[1:02:06] Speaker 1: So I'm assuming it's just like, how can you trust
[1:02:09] Speaker 1: someone to tell the truth when they haven't gone through
[1:02:10] Speaker 1: the proper channels to become a citizen of our great nation,
[1:02:13] Speaker 1: which I mean, if we can fast forward to today,
[1:02:15] Speaker 1: we know that it's really not that fucking cut and
[1:02:17] Speaker 1: dry in any way. And she says, Cecilia goes, we
[1:02:22] Speaker 1: didn't have the money for amnesty back then, but I've
[1:02:24] Speaker 1: been trying ever since.
[1:02:25] Speaker 3: And she goes, so you're here illegally.
[1:02:27] Speaker 1: You went to school here, you saw doctors here, you
[1:02:30] Speaker 1: made money, but you did not pay taxes, which we
[1:02:33] Speaker 1: know now is not true. It's weird that the show like, yes,
[1:02:36] Speaker 1: she as a child teenager did not pay taxes, but
[1:02:39] Speaker 1: her parents very well could have been paying taxes. You know,
[1:02:41] Speaker 1: undocumented did people pay taxes? And so she then pulls
[1:02:47] Speaker 1: out the big guns. Oh, so is the DA's office
[1:02:49] Speaker 1: helping you with your immigration status? In exchange for your testimony.
[1:02:52] Speaker 1: Casey objects, but Donna withdraws, classic bitch move that these
[1:02:55] Speaker 1: lawyers all do to each other. Casey looks stunned, but like, bitch,
[1:02:59] Speaker 1: you didn't know she was gonna that card, Like this
[1:03:01] Speaker 1: is weird for me on the k C level, Like
[1:03:03] Speaker 1: Casey should be thinking three steps ahead. You didn't know
[1:03:05] Speaker 1: she was going to bring up status. Yeah, she was
[1:03:08] Speaker 1: obviously going to do that. So now somehow Casey and
[1:03:12] Speaker 1: Melinda are having a chat about immigration together.
[1:03:16] Speaker 2: Thing of like, yeah, this fourteen year old gets raped
[1:03:20] Speaker 2: and she's so scared to because like her immigration status
[1:03:24] Speaker 2: is what kept her from coming forward. Yeah, like why
[1:03:28] Speaker 2: would that be the thing of her not, Like it's
[1:03:31] Speaker 2: like the whole damn system is wrong, you know.
[1:03:33] Speaker 1: And it's also like the NYPD cannot like guarantee your citizenship,
[1:03:38] Speaker 1: you know, like they can they can help you file
[1:03:41] Speaker 1: stuff where like if you're the victim of a crime,
[1:03:42] Speaker 1: you're allowed to stay for certain amounts of time or whatever,
[1:03:45] Speaker 1: but like they don't like hand you a green card
[1:03:47] Speaker 1: in exchange for testimony, Like that's not how it works.
[1:03:50] Speaker 1: So but whatever, as long as you get the jury
[1:03:54] Speaker 1: to believe that she could have ulterior motives.
[1:03:56] Speaker 3: That's all the reasonable doubt they might need.
[1:03:58] Speaker 1: But so now, somehow, so Casey and Melinda are having
[1:04:01] Speaker 1: a chat about immigration in the Morgue.
[1:04:02] Speaker 3: I don't it's I'm taking aback a little bit.
[1:04:05] Speaker 1: Casey is like, I'm really shocked that people are like
[1:04:08] Speaker 1: looking at this victim like a criminal, and Melinda's like, well,
[1:04:11] Speaker 1: people feel really strongly about immigration on both sides. I
[1:04:14] Speaker 1: don't really want to hear the term on both sides
[1:04:16] Speaker 1: come out of Melinda's mouth, to be honest, but here
[1:04:18] Speaker 1: we are. And then Novak's like, your forensic testimony has
[1:04:23] Speaker 1: to be solid. Is the partial profile enough to say
[1:04:26] Speaker 1: he's a match? She goes, yes, but it leaves you
[1:04:29] Speaker 1: open to rebuttal and she goes, what do you mean?
[1:04:32] Speaker 1: She goes, because the partial was significantly degraded, And Casey's like, well,
[1:04:36] Speaker 1: I need a probability of a match DNA, like of
[1:04:39] Speaker 1: a DNA matched crane, and Melinda's like, I can't give
[1:04:41] Speaker 1: you that with what I have, and Casey's like, okay,
[1:04:44] Speaker 1: Well then he walks and Melinda's like, sweetie, I know
[1:04:47] Speaker 1: what you want me to say, but the science does
[1:04:48] Speaker 1: not support it. And Casey's like, when the defense get
[1:04:51] Speaker 1: these gets these labs, they may have enough for reasonable doubt.
[1:04:54] Speaker 3: Can you live with that?
[1:04:55] Speaker 1: And Melinda says, if I have to, because I'm sure
[1:04:58] Speaker 1: as hell not going to risk my reputation for a
[1:05:00] Speaker 1: that we didn't earn.
[1:05:02] Speaker 3: She's so good. She's so good.
[1:05:04] Speaker 1: And the thing is, the thing that I didn't understand
[1:05:06] Speaker 1: is like, if it's a nine point match, there is
[1:05:09] Speaker 1: probability there, right, If you normally get a thirteen point
[1:05:12] Speaker 1: match and it's a nine point match, what is the
[1:05:14] Speaker 1: probability of getting a nine point match? How many other
[1:05:17] Speaker 1: people in New York City might have that same DNA
[1:05:21] Speaker 1: and know Ed Kralik whose DNA has been found, you know,
[1:05:26] Speaker 1: like how many people Like that's the probability they should.
[1:05:29] Speaker 2: Be working with.
[1:05:29] Speaker 1: I don't really understand why they're like, we can't do it.
[1:05:31] Speaker 1: But cut to Melinda on the stand with her screen
[1:05:35] Speaker 1: and a clicker showing a thirteen low side match for
[1:05:38] Speaker 1: the skin underneath the fingernails and Ed Kralik. She's like,
[1:05:41] Speaker 1: see this matches. Then she shows the matchup of the
[1:05:43] Speaker 1: semen sample and says it's a nine low side match,
[1:05:46] Speaker 1: even though it's partial in her opinion it belongs to
[1:05:50] Speaker 1: the defendant. She says that Melinda, and we know, as
[1:05:53] Speaker 1: she's just stated, she's not gonna fuck around and say
[1:05:57] Speaker 1: something is not attributed to someone. Donna Emmett has no questions,
[1:06:02] Speaker 1: which is sort of shocking. So now Lake is on
[1:06:05] Speaker 1: the stand saying he interviewed Kralik about his presence at
[1:06:10] Speaker 1: the crime scene and he said he couldn't remember anything,
[1:06:13] Speaker 1: and then he got very hostile and they're like, well, yeah,
[1:06:16] Speaker 1: didn't you guys start fighting And he's like, well, he
[1:06:18] Speaker 1: threw a punch at me after I tried to collect
[1:06:20] Speaker 1: a cigarette butt that he had tossed, and obviously he
[1:06:23] Speaker 1: wanted the cigarette butt so he could test the DNA.
[1:06:26] Speaker 1: So he explained that he got lured by someone saying
[1:06:29] Speaker 1: that they were Bill Jensen, but he idd the voice
[1:06:31] Speaker 1: as Crane. So what's so fucked up is that these
[1:06:35] Speaker 1: three dudes that were in the apartment of the of
[1:06:38] Speaker 1: the widow at the time that are all like, we're
[1:06:41] Speaker 1: Kraylix buddies. This fucking guy Crane was throwing Bill Jensen
[1:06:45] Speaker 1: under the bus when he made that call. He goes, Hi,
[1:06:47] Speaker 1: I'm Bill Jensen, and I've got a I've got some
[1:06:49] Speaker 1: information for you. Meet me in this where in this lot,
[1:06:52] Speaker 1: you know, like he used another guy's name to throw off.
[1:06:55] Speaker 3: He didn't say, I'm Thomas Crane.
[1:06:57] Speaker 2: So he goes, I'm positive it was that was the
[1:07:00] Speaker 2: one that called, but he used his friend's fucking name.
[1:07:02] Speaker 2: So these guys have no loyalty to each other.
[1:07:04] Speaker 1: It's like another little kind of Easter egg about how
[1:07:06] Speaker 1: there's no loyalty. So they go who was the third shooter? There,
[1:07:09] Speaker 1: he goes, it was Thomas Crane. I'm positive and then
[1:07:12] Speaker 1: it's like, but you did tell Finn earlier that you
[1:07:14] Speaker 1: did not see the guy, Like you can't be positive,
[1:07:17] Speaker 1: like you didn't see him and.
[1:07:18] Speaker 3: You were getting shot at and he was in a
[1:07:20] Speaker 3: dark void.
[1:07:20] Speaker 1: Everyone's taken some liberties, okay, And now it's Donna's turn
[1:07:24] Speaker 1: to go at Lake and she goes, so did you
[1:07:26] Speaker 1: find the gun that was used in the shootout with
[1:07:29] Speaker 1: like that was Crane's gun, and he goes.
[1:07:31] Speaker 2: No, obviously, we haven't found the gun.
[1:07:33] Speaker 1: You would know if you've won the gun, And she asks, well,
[1:07:35] Speaker 1: what happened when you asked to have Alsa Hernandez's rape
[1:07:39] Speaker 1: kit removed? And he says, oh, they told me that
[1:07:41] Speaker 1: a superior had to authorize it, and she goes, is
[1:07:44] Speaker 1: that all you were told? And then Lake takes a
[1:07:46] Speaker 1: beat and she goes, you weren't told that the evidence
[1:07:49] Speaker 1: was too degraded and contaminated for testing, and Lake says no,
[1:07:53] Speaker 1: and Donna calls for an immediate mistrial. She goes, I
[1:07:56] Speaker 1: have proof that there is a cover up going on here,
[1:07:59] Speaker 1: and that's this witness has perjured himself and the prosecution
[1:08:01] Speaker 1: has violated. Brady Petrovsky is pissed. She's like, all of
[1:08:05] Speaker 1: you in my chambers now, okay. So this is when
[1:08:08] Speaker 1: the episode really goes bananas, and I kind of lose
[1:08:11] Speaker 1: the plot in a lot of ways. Donna Emmett says
[1:08:15] Speaker 1: that she discovered biological evidence was compromised, and Casey says, no,
[1:08:22] Speaker 1: they were tested by lab protocol. And what I don't
[1:08:26] Speaker 1: understand is if they weren't, then Melinda would not have
[1:08:28] Speaker 1: testified that what she testified to. If it was done
[1:08:32] Speaker 1: by any kind of not like by the books protocol,
[1:08:35] Speaker 1: Melinda would not have testified to what she said. And
[1:08:38] Speaker 1: Donna wants to know where are the reports because I
[1:08:40] Speaker 1: haven't seen them, and Casey goes, they're incomplete, they're not finished.
[1:08:44] Speaker 1: And Donna goes, and the dog ate my homework, and
[1:08:46] Speaker 1: Casey's like, I'll get them over to you asap. And
[1:08:49] Speaker 1: so then Petrovski's like, well, what about the conspiracy, And
[1:08:52] Speaker 1: Donna goes, Lake perjured himself. He was told that the
[1:08:55] Speaker 1: DNA was too degraded for testing by the evidence intake officer,
[1:08:58] Speaker 1: and no. Back is like, that guy is not a
[1:09:01] Speaker 1: DNA expert. And if it's so degraded, how did we
[1:09:03] Speaker 1: find two separate profiles? And Donna goes, you want to
[1:09:06] Speaker 1: win so bad you'd plant evidence and frame my client.
[1:09:08] Speaker 1: And she goes, oh, the OJ defense, good for you.
[1:09:11] Speaker 1: So these two are really, I mean, Casey Novak and
[1:09:14] Speaker 1: Donna Emmett really going head to head. Petrovsky's like, knock
[1:09:18] Speaker 1: it off you too. She goes, I'll grant you that
[1:09:20] Speaker 1: this DNA stuff is sus but you cannot accuse sworn
[1:09:24] Speaker 1: court officers without hard evidence.
[1:09:27] Speaker 3: Casey, get those reports by clothes of.
[1:09:29] Speaker 2: Business today to Donna, to the defense and probably to
[1:09:33] Speaker 2: the judge, or you'll be in contempt.
[1:09:35] Speaker 1: And one more thing, Donna says, she goes, just because
[1:09:38] Speaker 1: I play by the book, I'm letting you know that
[1:09:40] Speaker 1: I'm subpoenaing Penelope Fielding.
[1:09:42] Speaker 2: Okay, So.
[1:09:45] Speaker 1: This just like, this is just confusing to me because
[1:09:50] Speaker 1: I didn't understand that they were holding back the partial
[1:09:53] Speaker 1: profile stuff from Donna because they said it on the stand.
[1:09:58] Speaker 1: It was a partial profile, they Melinda said it. So
[1:10:01] Speaker 1: why how does she not been there the whole time?
[1:10:04] Speaker 2: Yes?
[1:10:05] Speaker 1: And it's like because she said no further questions, you
[1:10:08] Speaker 1: didn't say, where are the lab reports? Like I don't understand,
[1:10:11] Speaker 1: Like now we think that Novak is planting DNA evidence Anyway,
[1:10:15] Speaker 1: in court, Penelope's on the stand going, oh, yeah, partial
[1:10:18] Speaker 1: profiles are the tits. They're the best damn things ever.
[1:10:20] Speaker 1: I fuck with them big time. I love a partial profile.
[1:10:23] Speaker 1: And then Viola Davis starts reading a passage about how
[1:10:25] Speaker 1: partial profiles are absolute dogshit. Do not trust partial profiles.
[1:10:29] Speaker 1: They are dumbfugly sluts. Okay, and she goes, who wrote that?
[1:10:34] Speaker 1: And Penelope is like, oops, it was me.
[1:10:36] Speaker 2: I did.
[1:10:37] Speaker 1: And so when she asked Penelope if, in her opinion,
[1:10:40] Speaker 1: does this DNA match, she says, I can't answer that
[1:10:44] Speaker 1: because this sample is the equivalent of less than a
[1:10:46] Speaker 1: single human cell. So I cannot say with certainty that
[1:10:50] Speaker 1: it matches the defendant. So why was Melinda cool with
[1:10:54] Speaker 1: saying that she was confident it matches the defendant? This
[1:10:57] Speaker 1: does not make sense to me. Melinda has specifically said
[1:11:00] Speaker 1: I will not go against the grain. I will not
[1:11:02] Speaker 1: go against the rules here. So then unfortunately the tribe
[1:11:08] Speaker 1: she did believe it.
[1:11:10] Speaker 2: Melinda, Yeah, like maybe Melinda's better than this woman, Like
[1:11:15] Speaker 2: maybe she couldn't tell, but maybe Melinda could from less
[1:11:19] Speaker 2: than this.
[1:11:19] Speaker 1: Woman ran a lab like I don't know, I just like, don't.
[1:11:22] Speaker 1: It just doesn't match up to me, like how she
[1:11:25] Speaker 1: actually got her on the stand. It just doesn't make
[1:11:29] Speaker 1: sense to me. And so but whatever, I'm trying to
[1:11:32] Speaker 1: connect the dots here. So then unfortunately we're at deliberation
[1:11:36] Speaker 1: and the lawyer, we're at the verdict, and the foreman
[1:11:39] Speaker 1: gets up and says we are deadlocked, like we cannot
[1:11:42] Speaker 1: come to an agreement on this, and Novak pulls the
[1:11:45] Speaker 1: jury and other people are talking.
[1:11:47] Speaker 3: So you're not really supposed to be paying attention.
[1:11:48] Speaker 1: But I did count, and I counted eight not guilty
[1:11:51] Speaker 1: and three guilty that we can hear. So at least
[1:11:54] Speaker 1: three people, all women, believe that these this cop is
[1:11:57] Speaker 1: a rapist, but other people did not. And I don't
[1:12:01] Speaker 1: know about the I don't know about the twelfth jurer
[1:12:04] Speaker 1: because I.
[1:12:04] Speaker 2: Didn't hear it.
[1:12:05] Speaker 1: But as if this isn't fucked up enough, outside the courtroom,
[1:12:08] Speaker 1: immediately Cecilia is being taken away by immigration enforcement, like
[1:12:12] Speaker 1: I mean this episode' from two thousand and eight, And
[1:12:13] Speaker 1: immediately it's like, oh, you're the victim of a crime.
[1:12:16] Speaker 1: You've been trying to get amnesty for years. Goodbye, You're
[1:12:18] Speaker 1: going back to a country that you've probably like not
[1:12:20] Speaker 1: never known. And she's apologizing to Elisa's father for never
[1:12:24] Speaker 1: telling him, I'm so sorry, and Crane walks by and
[1:12:28] Speaker 1: they give it. They all give him dirty looks, and
[1:12:30] Speaker 1: Lake is like, don't do anything stupid to Elisa's dad,
[1:12:33] Speaker 1: foreshadowing Novak says, I promise I will refile the charges
[1:12:37] Speaker 1: and I will try him again.
[1:12:39] Speaker 2: But how will you win?
[1:12:41] Speaker 1: Like there is simply not evidence, Like if you don't
[1:12:44] Speaker 1: have this evidence that this man was there, I don't
[1:12:47] Speaker 1: know how you will win. You need to find other
[1:12:49] Speaker 1: evidence that he was the responding officer. Is their proof
[1:12:53] Speaker 1: that he also responded to this call? Like so I
[1:12:56] Speaker 1: don't know. I guess it's like only DNA is the
[1:12:59] Speaker 1: corner stone here. So at the precinct, Benson invites Finn
[1:13:03] Speaker 1: out for a drink with the gang, but he wants
[1:13:05] Speaker 1: to check on late because he's not answering his phone.
[1:13:07] Speaker 1: As Finn goes to leave, Stabler's like, uh, listen, man,
[1:13:12] Speaker 1: sorry about that hole completely not trusting you and jumping
[1:13:15] Speaker 1: your phones. And it's a very stern apology, but he
[1:13:17] Speaker 1: does apologize, and Finn goes, you're a bulldog, Stabler. You're
[1:13:20] Speaker 1: quick to assume, slow to admit you're wrong. It makes
[1:13:22] Speaker 1: for a good cop, but a lousy human being.
[1:13:25] Speaker 2: And then Benson goes Finn hear him out and she
[1:13:28] Speaker 2: goes and he goes, stay out of it live, and
[1:13:30] Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is my kid's fighting. Wow.
[1:13:32] Speaker 1: And then Finn continues laying in Distabler. He goes and
[1:13:34] Speaker 1: I know what it costs you, but the problem is
[1:13:37] Speaker 1: you'll be the same rap bastard tomorrow and nothing you
[1:13:40] Speaker 1: say will ever change that.
[1:13:42] Speaker 2: And then he walks out, and you're like, shit, man.
[1:13:45] Speaker 1: He walks out, and Munch presses some papers into Stabler's chests,
[1:13:49] Speaker 1: and Watch walks away and the papers are Finn's transfer request.
[1:13:54] Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, he sticks around for like eighteen more seasons. Okay,
[1:13:58] Speaker 1: he doesn't transfer. Sorry, sorry to ruin that for anyone
[1:14:01] Speaker 1: that's uh listening to our podcast. Blind Casey walks into
[1:14:07] Speaker 1: Judge Johnnilly's chambers. This is where my mind is like
[1:14:11] Speaker 1: completely blown because Casey walks into Judge Donallly's chambers. You
[1:14:16] Speaker 1: know the esteem Judith Light, who I love, and you know,
[1:14:19] Speaker 1: sometimes I realize I call her Judy Light on this podcast,
[1:14:22] Speaker 1: and I'm gonna stop doing that because we find out
[1:14:24] Speaker 1: very soon she doesn't like she likes to be called Judith.
[1:14:27] Speaker 1: Casey walks into Judge Donaldy's chambers, where Donnelly tells her
[1:14:31] Speaker 1: that the DA is not going to refile charges against
[1:14:33] Speaker 1: Thomas Crane, and Novak is floored. She's like, this man
[1:14:36] Speaker 1: committed rape and murder of a fourteen year old girl
[1:14:39] Speaker 1: and gets to keep his badge, and Donnelly assures her
[1:14:43] Speaker 1: it's because of but also the other thing is he
[1:14:47] Speaker 1: was he would probably be tried for like accessory to murder.
[1:14:50] Speaker 1: It's if there's fingernails of Cray, like Crayik's the one
[1:14:53] Speaker 1: that killed Alissa, like he could argue, like, even if
[1:14:56] Speaker 1: he admitted to the rape, let's say, he could be like,
[1:14:58] Speaker 1: but I never wanted to kill an you know, like,
[1:15:00] Speaker 1: I don't think he would go down for murder.
[1:15:02] Speaker 2: Maybe accessory, And then I don't know.
[1:15:05] Speaker 1: They've put people to death that were driving the getaway cars,
[1:15:08] Speaker 1: so I have no idea actually in this country what
[1:15:09] Speaker 1: they're doing. So Novak's like, this guy committed rape and
[1:15:14] Speaker 1: murder and he gets to keep his badge, and Donnelly's like,
[1:15:16] Speaker 1: and it's because of your actions that he gets to
[1:15:19] Speaker 1: And Casey tries to big time Donnelly by going, this
[1:15:23] Speaker 1: doesn't concern.
[1:15:24] Speaker 2: You, and boy is she wrong.
[1:15:26] Speaker 1: Okay, she goes, well it does now, and she hands
[1:15:29] Speaker 1: Casey's some paperwork and Casey's like, fuck, I'm being called
[1:15:34] Speaker 1: before the bar and Donnelly goes, yeah at my insistence,
[1:15:38] Speaker 1: and she's like why, and she goes, because you lost perspective,
[1:15:41] Speaker 1: because I sit on the peer review board and I
[1:15:43] Speaker 1: cannot allow you to commit a Brady violation and lie
[1:15:46] Speaker 1: to the court without consequence. Casey doubles down that the
[1:15:50] Speaker 1: reports weren't finished and she sent them back. I don't
[1:15:53] Speaker 1: even know what that means. Petrovsky said you had to
[1:15:56] Speaker 1: have them by the end of the day. We've now
[1:15:58] Speaker 1: gone through the final day of the trial and the deliberation.
[1:16:01] Speaker 1: Did you get them in or not? And Donnelly goes,
[1:16:03] Speaker 1: you lied to Petrowski and now you're lying to me.
[1:16:06] Speaker 1: The lab reports were dated and stamped, and Casey looks caught. Okay, wow.
[1:16:12] Speaker 1: And it's weird because normally when you see a lawyer
[1:16:17] Speaker 1: do something wrong Barba or they know Stephanie, it's like
[1:16:21] Speaker 1: they allude to it. They're like, I'm gonna try to
[1:16:23] Speaker 1: squeeze something through. This is like, we didn't know Casey
[1:16:26] Speaker 1: lied about this. Like in my mind, I was like, oh,
[1:16:29] Speaker 1: are the reports not done? Like I don't know what's
[1:16:31] Speaker 1: going on.
[1:16:32] Speaker 2: And so.
[1:16:34] Speaker 1: Casey this moment where she looks like fuck, like she's caught.
[1:16:38] Speaker 1: It's like, so you had these reports done, but you
[1:16:45] Speaker 1: didn't send them to the defense, which is a full
[1:16:47] Speaker 1: Brady violation, which we know Brady is that you have
[1:16:49] Speaker 1: to share any exculpatory evidence of the defendant with the
[1:16:53] Speaker 1: defense if you find it right. So that's a huge
[1:16:58] Speaker 1: Brady violation. And instead of she thought she could just
[1:17:01] Speaker 1: be like, no, they're coming they're coming. The reports are coming,
[1:17:04] Speaker 1: The reports are coming, and it's like this lawyer, Donna
[1:17:07] Speaker 1: Emmon is not going to like let the trial keep
[1:17:09] Speaker 1: going without the reports.
[1:17:11] Speaker 2: That's what I don't understand.
[1:17:12] Speaker 1: And also, if there was a report that was dated
[1:17:15] Speaker 1: and stamped, did Melinda not see it?
[1:17:18] Speaker 3: Did Melinda not?
[1:17:19] Speaker 1: Why would Melinda get up there and go nope, I'm
[1:17:21] Speaker 1: confident it Just it doesn't make sense to me.
[1:17:23] Speaker 2: I'm very confused.
[1:17:24] Speaker 1: So Donnelly looks at Casey and goes, we are civil servants, Casey.
[1:17:30] Speaker 1: No one is falling on their sword for you. And
[1:17:32] Speaker 1: she's like, why did you do this? Like that's all
[1:17:34] Speaker 1: she wants to know is why, And she's like, because
[1:17:36] Speaker 1: the bad guys can't always win.
[1:17:38] Speaker 3: He deserved to pay.
[1:17:39] Speaker 1: And it's like, sure, you've lost some cases, but like
[1:17:42] Speaker 1: your closure rate is pretty good. The bad guys are
[1:17:44] Speaker 1: not always winning you on this show, you are putting
[1:17:47] Speaker 1: a lot of bad guys away. Like if it was like,
[1:17:49] Speaker 1: oh my god, we haven't won a case all year,
[1:17:51] Speaker 1: what the fuck? Like I was snapping that. Maybe I
[1:17:54] Speaker 1: get that, but it's like, no, the New Yorker would
[1:17:56] Speaker 1: have done like a full piece on her. Yes, she
[1:18:00] Speaker 1: might have been celebrated throughout the city. Yes, she would
[1:18:02] Speaker 1: be running for office, truly, she'd be like a senator,
[1:18:04] Speaker 1: like honestly. And Donnelly, so she goes, he deserved to pay,
[1:18:09] Speaker 1: and Donnelly goes and so do you. And then you
[1:18:12] Speaker 1: really see Casey. She's crying. She goes, how much trouble
[1:18:15] Speaker 1: am I in? And that's when it's like, wow, she's
[1:18:18] Speaker 1: really fucking admitting it, and uh, Donnelly goes censure, possible suspension.
[1:18:23] Speaker 2: She goes for how long? She goes a year? Maybe more?
[1:18:26] Speaker 2: Casey looks heartbroken, She goes, what should I do?
[1:18:29] Speaker 1: And then Donnelly goes something else, and it's just I mean,
[1:18:34] Speaker 1: it was obviously foreshadowed in the episode that she was getting,
[1:18:37] Speaker 1: you know, wooed by this like you know, private defense
[1:18:41] Speaker 1: attorney firm at the beginning, Who's like, come on, come
[1:18:43] Speaker 1: help us, come help us defend white collar criminals.
[1:18:46] Speaker 2: You don't have to deal with any of this bullshit.
[1:18:48] Speaker 1: And then her cell phone beeps while she's eyes full
[1:18:51] Speaker 1: of tears talking to Donnelly, and she goes, I gotta go.
[1:18:54] Speaker 1: She walks up to a crime scene with the squad
[1:18:56] Speaker 1: where Thomas Crane is lying dead on his back and
[1:19:00] Speaker 1: the cops are walking chester Lake away in handcuffs.
[1:19:04] Speaker 2: So he's just going to jail forever and where he
[1:19:08] Speaker 2: gets killed in jail. But yeah, like that's the last
[1:19:13] Speaker 2: we ever see of chester Lake. I feel like they
[1:19:15] Speaker 2: hated him, Like because with other people, they could come back.
[1:19:19] Speaker 2: There's always they're working in you know, Amarro is working
[1:19:23] Speaker 2: in some technology. There's a professor, like they usually send
[1:19:26] Speaker 2: people off into retirement, Munch comes back, you know, to
[1:19:30] Speaker 2: help out, to have them be like, we're not killing you,
[1:19:33] Speaker 2: because we don't want anyone to even be sad for you.
[1:19:36] Speaker 2: We're disgracing any bit of good work you did the
[1:19:39] Speaker 2: entire time you've been on this squad, and you're going
[1:19:41] Speaker 2: to jail for life. Like he helped find the killer
[1:19:45] Speaker 2: in the Erica Christianensen episode, Like he has helped on
[1:19:49] Speaker 2: a lot of cases and as far as we knew,
[1:19:53] Speaker 2: was a full rule follower. That's what I don't get
[1:19:56] Speaker 2: about this.
[1:19:57] Speaker 1: Not both of these cases shows two people acting in
[1:20:01] Speaker 1: a way that they would never act and they've never
[1:20:04] Speaker 1: acted previously. With Chester I buy it a little bit
[1:20:07] Speaker 1: more because he's maybe been like fucking fully obsessing over
[1:20:10] Speaker 1: this case for ten years and he just can't stand
[1:20:13] Speaker 1: when bad guy when like bad guys are posing as
[1:20:16] Speaker 1: good guys. I kind of get that Casey has not
[1:20:20] Speaker 1: broken a rule really, Like she doesn't break rules. She
[1:20:24] Speaker 1: maybe has been to a couple of things. She would
[1:20:27] Speaker 1: not do something this egregious and thinks she could get
[1:20:29] Speaker 1: away with me.
[1:20:30] Speaker 2: Wasn't it the boys? She gets in trouble again, she
[1:20:32] Speaker 2: breaks the rules again. There was she gets like connected
[1:20:38] Speaker 2: to someone and then like a boy dies because of her.
[1:20:40] Speaker 2: Like the bitch is playing some games. I don't know
[1:20:45] Speaker 2: Cabin and her plague ambar, but they all play games.
[1:20:48] Speaker 1: How about at the beginning when it's like I told
[1:20:49] Speaker 1: you not to fucking talk to Lake, he's got forty
[1:20:51] Speaker 1: eight hour hold, Like she's playing by the rules they
[1:20:54] Speaker 1: or she's not like trying to get it out of him,
[1:20:55] Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like.
[1:20:56] Speaker 2: She's like they're not she's I don't.
[1:20:59] Speaker 1: Know, it's just be breaking the rules. But she has
[1:21:01] Speaker 1: done some I thought it would have been nice for.
[1:21:06] Speaker 2: Casey to have something happen where she was like, I
[1:21:08] Speaker 2: don't know if I could do this anymore, Like.
[1:21:10] Speaker 1: You know, let's have Chester break the rules. Let's have
[1:21:13] Speaker 1: Casey do something a little bit, but I don't know.
[1:21:16] Speaker 1: You know, obviously I'm not gonna argue with what the
[1:21:19] Speaker 1: show puts out, but this the lab report stuff is
[1:21:23] Speaker 1: a very confusing to me, and I was not sure
[1:21:26] Speaker 1: until the very last scene, which is kind of cool
[1:21:29] Speaker 1: that Casey had lied. Yeah, that is cool, you know,
[1:21:33] Speaker 1: that is kind of like a cool wait till the
[1:21:35] Speaker 1: last minute thing that you don't always you can usually
[1:21:38] Speaker 1: kind of see that kind of stuff coming from a
[1:21:39] Speaker 1: mile away, where you're like, oh, they're gonna they're gonna
[1:21:41] Speaker 1: get Barba for this, like he wasn't allowed to do that,
[1:21:44] Speaker 1: you know, like can unplug that, baby, Barba. But anyway,
[1:21:49] Speaker 1: that's Dick Wolf Baby. It's over and that's the last
[1:21:52] Speaker 1: we ever see of Chesterlake. We never see him again,
[1:21:54] Speaker 1: him getting taken off in handcuffs.
[1:21:56] Speaker 2: I don't even know if they.
[1:21:57] Speaker 1: Mentioned him next season, Like anybody know how much time
[1:21:59] Speaker 1: Chester got for that murder?
[1:22:01] Speaker 2: No. I am talking about a few things today and
[1:22:13] Speaker 2: they kind of suck. Okay, bad one really really upset me.
[1:22:17] Speaker 2: I mean whatever, because I was telling someone, I go, yeah,
[1:22:21] Speaker 2: it's really upsetting. She's like, aren't they all upsetting? I go, yeah,
[1:22:23] Speaker 2: But some just more than others. Yeah, you just can't.
[1:22:26] Speaker 2: You don't really plan which which horror will make you
[1:22:29] Speaker 2: the most upset. But there are some horrors. First, I'll
[1:22:32] Speaker 2: just start with some videk Society, VIDOC whatever. So I
[1:22:36] Speaker 2: said it wrong. So, like Kara said, it's Philadelphia group
[1:22:40] Speaker 2: composed largely of law enforcement professionals who investigate cold cases.
[1:22:44] Speaker 2: They were formed in nineteen ninety by three guys. So
[1:22:47] Speaker 2: it's William L. Fleiser, former Philly police officer and FBI
[1:22:51] Speaker 2: agent hot and then was Philly's second in command US
[1:22:55] Speaker 2: Customs special agent. I'm humiliated that I said Hot after
[1:22:58] Speaker 2: FBI agent, but that's just kind of in the mood
[1:23:01] Speaker 2: I'm in too. Frank Bender, forensic sculptor from Philly, and
[1:23:08] Speaker 2: then Richard Walter, prison psychologist in Michigan.
[1:23:12] Speaker 1: This is a cool idea for a TV show. I'm
[1:23:14] Speaker 1: sure someone's done it. I mean it's probably basically the
[1:23:16] Speaker 1: show Cold Case or something, which I've never watched. But like,
[1:23:19] Speaker 1: I like that one of them is a cop, one
[1:23:21] Speaker 1: of them is a forensic sculptor, and one of them
[1:23:24] Speaker 1: is a prison psychologist. Like it's very evil, you know,
[1:23:27] Speaker 1: I love to bring up evil on evil.
[1:23:28] Speaker 3: There's like three members of the team and.
[1:23:30] Speaker 2: They all have a specific skill set, you know, yeah,
[1:23:33] Speaker 2: teamwork and avengers of forensics. Yeah, so this was named
[1:23:38] Speaker 2: after Eugene Francois Idac and I can't Vidoc.
[1:23:41] Speaker 3: I think it's just v doc.
[1:23:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's v doc. It's not even any of the
[1:23:45] Speaker 2: other ones. Okay, So the criminal term detective who founded
[1:23:50] Speaker 2: the French Sirette, I don't know what that is, and
[1:23:53] Speaker 2: is considered to have been the first modern detective. He's
[1:23:56] Speaker 2: seventeen seventy five to eighteen fifty seven is his life.
[1:23:59] Speaker 2: But he's known, you know, to these dorks as first
[1:24:03] Speaker 2: kind of like Joanistick and Send being the first supermodel,
[1:24:05] Speaker 2: you know, surette. It looks like is like the French police.
[1:24:11] Speaker 2: French police, whoa, whoah, thanks for doing that. So and
[1:24:16] Speaker 2: it started because these guys, these forensic guys, just went
[1:24:18] Speaker 2: to lunch and their chats turned into cold cold case
[1:24:21] Speaker 2: solving and everyone's a volunteer. And these are the types
[1:24:25] Speaker 2: of people that are there, DNA experts, forensic people, criminologists,
[1:24:30] Speaker 2: medical examiners, anthropologists, toxicologists, psychiatrists, psychologists, behavior analysts, entomologists, wildlife biologists,
[1:24:40] Speaker 2: forensic photographers, firearm examiners, chemists, linguists, cops, prosecutors, polygraph people
[1:24:47] Speaker 2: and more cool and their thing is truth begets truth.
[1:24:53] Speaker 5: They have a mission to help. This is from their site.
[1:24:55] Speaker 2: Okay, so they have a mission to help with fresh
[1:24:57] Speaker 2: eyes via collective experience of a bunch of seasoned professionals.
[1:25:01] Speaker 2: It is all pro bono and there's no independent investigations.
[1:25:05] Speaker 2: They act as a catalyst and assist law enforcement agencies
[1:25:09] Speaker 2: only at their invitation, which I don't think is clear
[1:25:12] Speaker 2: here because the way Craigan hates them is it's like
[1:25:15] Speaker 2: these looney tunes that are don't know how to mind
[1:25:17] Speaker 2: their business, but like they only help when a police
[1:25:21] Speaker 2: people ask for help, or any law enforcement agency.
[1:25:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, they have to be engaged by the cops, right.
[1:25:27] Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, they don't work with any families or friends,
[1:25:32] Speaker 2: and no independent investigations and the cold case must be
[1:25:35] Speaker 2: for older than two years old, victims cannot have been
[1:25:38] Speaker 2: involved in any criminal activity, and the case must be
[1:25:42] Speaker 2: presented by a law enforcement agency. The first case they
[1:25:45] Speaker 2: solved was in nineteen ninety one, which exonerated Derek Carlock,
[1:25:49] Speaker 2: who was wrongly accused for the murder of William Hughey Cox,
[1:25:52] Speaker 2: a Little Rock, Arkansas restaurant manager, also helped solve the
[1:25:56] Speaker 2: murder of Terry Brooks, who is a knight manager of
[1:25:59] Speaker 2: a Pennsylvania resta trant who was killed in nineteen eighty
[1:26:01] Speaker 2: four by her boyfriend, and then they solved it in
[1:26:04] Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine. It's like really cool in nineteen eighty four.
[1:26:08] Speaker 2: The murder of Deborah Wilson, a Drexel University student, was
[1:26:12] Speaker 2: solved in nineteen ninety five after the Society suggested that
[1:26:16] Speaker 2: the murder was somehow like he was someone with a
[1:26:19] Speaker 2: foot fetish because they realized her shoes and socks were
[1:26:22] Speaker 2: missing from the body. And then they found David Dixon
[1:26:26] Speaker 2: and he was arrested and convicted. And the moment I
[1:26:29] Speaker 2: heard that one of the founders was a sculptor, I
[1:26:31] Speaker 2: thought of this case immediately. I thought of this, this
[1:26:35] Speaker 2: is what America's most wanted. And it was a forensic files.
[1:26:38] Speaker 2: But this is the case of John List, and we
[1:26:40] Speaker 2: did it, and he was caught from a bus and
[1:26:42] Speaker 2: this is the motherfucker. Oh, this is the motherfucker. So
[1:26:47] Speaker 2: basically John List recover this. If you remember he killed
[1:26:51] Speaker 2: his wife and three kids and then he was on
[1:26:53] Speaker 2: the lamb for eighteen years and a psych call it.
[1:26:56] Speaker 2: Like two of the founders helped. So one was the
[1:26:58] Speaker 2: site guy and was like, this guy's going to be
[1:27:00] Speaker 2: wearing the same glasses married doing the same shit, Like
[1:27:02] Speaker 2: he's going to be doing the same life. And then
[1:27:04] Speaker 2: the sculptor guy built what he would look like in
[1:27:06] Speaker 2: the future, and he was apprehended eleven days later because
[1:27:09] Speaker 2: the neighbor recognized the bust. And I think about this
[1:27:12] Speaker 2: guy immediately, and I can't believe it's him. While I
[1:27:14] Speaker 2: was reading, like I was flooring, he talked, did we
[1:27:18] Speaker 2: never talk about John List? Is just just like a case?
[1:27:20] Speaker 3: I don't think we did?
[1:27:22] Speaker 1: Oh because I I is it j O h N
[1:27:26] Speaker 1: L I S T.
[1:27:27] Speaker 2: Yeah. I just like know because he has like another name,
[1:27:29] Speaker 2: the butcher of something. Doesn't he have like a nickname?
[1:27:32] Speaker 2: We have never covered the case. My bad, guys. I'm
[1:27:35] Speaker 2: just passionate. So wait, so.
[1:27:38] Speaker 3: Tell me what happens in this case.
[1:27:41] Speaker 2: So this guy kills his wife and three kids. He
[1:27:44] Speaker 2: gets away for eighteen years, just leaves, just leaves, and
[1:27:48] Speaker 2: they find him. And the guys were saying like they're like,
[1:27:51] Speaker 2: he's going to be wearing the same glasses. He's going
[1:27:53] Speaker 2: to live the same type of life. He's going to
[1:27:55] Speaker 2: be going to the same church, like he's not going
[1:27:56] Speaker 2: to be able to live a different type of life.
[1:27:59] Speaker 2: And then the bust guy he was able to build
[1:28:02] Speaker 2: this bus with. This man would look like eighteen years
[1:28:04] Speaker 2: later and it only took eleven days because the neighbors
[1:28:08] Speaker 2: recognized him and called and and he was going to
[1:28:11] Speaker 2: the same church, playing the same instruments, like everything the same. Yeah,
[1:28:15] Speaker 2: he's just like a family annihilator. Damn. Yeah. But I
[1:28:20] Speaker 2: think about because people are like, you can't do the arts,
[1:28:23] Speaker 2: But I guess you need more because it's like you
[1:28:26] Speaker 2: have to figure out what this person could look like
[1:28:28] Speaker 2: in the future. So there's more skills. Oh, you know,
[1:28:30] Speaker 2: so many jobs to think about.
[1:28:32] Speaker 1: He's listed as one of the guys we're going to
[1:28:34] Speaker 1: talk about for the Boogeyman of Westfields. Yes, the bugget
[1:28:39] Speaker 1: and the name for annihilated, but we're still holding out
[1:28:43] Speaker 1: for Shane's dad.
[1:28:45] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we need Shane's dad. What the fuck? One day?
[1:28:50] Speaker 2: One day? Okay, So it is the Boogeyman bus and
[1:28:52] Speaker 2: we're gonna cover it because we want to do annihilated.
[1:28:54] Speaker 2: Now it all makes sense.
[1:28:55] Speaker 5: I'm like, yeah, in my head, I'm like, I know
[1:28:57] Speaker 5: he had a funky little name.
[1:28:59] Speaker 3: I mean, what a nightmare this guy. Okay, anyway, anyway,
[1:29:02] Speaker 3: go on.
[1:29:03] Speaker 2: So these like Avengers, you also can't request membership. It's
[1:29:06] Speaker 2: a closed membership organization invitally. They meet monthly at the
[1:29:10] Speaker 2: Union League of Philly. And I'm proud of them. Bad.
[1:29:15] Speaker 1: I did look up that they're featured in like related
[1:29:20] Speaker 1: true crime shows. It says Cold Case.
[1:29:21] Speaker 2: There's a show called The New Detectives, which is it
[1:29:26] Speaker 2: seems like it's actually a doc series. So I don't know.
[1:29:29] Speaker 2: I don't think anyone's ever I don't know interesting. Go on.
[1:29:34] Speaker 2: So that's all I got about them. And now we'll
[1:29:36] Speaker 2: go to the bad Earth, bad worse. Okay. So this
[1:29:39] Speaker 2: is the murder of Jennifer Irtman and Elizabeth Painyam, June
[1:29:44] Speaker 2: twenty fourth, nineteen ninety three, Houston. And this kind of
[1:29:47] Speaker 2: reminds you of another episode we did. It's just fuck.
[1:29:50] Speaker 2: So it's tc Ester Park, Jennifer and Elizabeth. They cut
[1:29:53] Speaker 2: through the park after a pool party. And this crime
[1:29:56] Speaker 2: is described by Don Smith and he's a retired prosecutor
[1:29:58] Speaker 2: and he said this to a thirteen like a you know,
[1:30:01] Speaker 2: a Houston affiliate, and he said, We've had bad crimes
[1:30:04] Speaker 2: in Houston, but nothing compared to this. I mean, this
[1:30:07] Speaker 2: shook everyone to like the core. So the girls were
[1:30:10] Speaker 2: fourteen and sixteen years old, and the suspects were six
[1:30:13] Speaker 2: teenage gang members. And they were ranging in age from
[1:30:16] Speaker 2: fourteen to eighteen. So we have Peter Anthony Cantu eighteen,
[1:30:20] Speaker 2: Derek Sean O'Brien eighteen, Ephrin Perez seventeen, Raoul Omar Villarial seventeen,
[1:30:28] Speaker 2: and Jose Ernesto Medelin eighteen. So Cantu and Medline were
[1:30:33] Speaker 2: on probation for weapons violations as well. I don't know
[1:30:36] Speaker 2: if that's even important, but they were all ended up
[1:30:38] Speaker 2: being charged with raping and strangling to death, these two
[1:30:40] Speaker 2: girls that had not planned it. There's no stocking. It
[1:30:44] Speaker 2: just happened to cross paths and this is like what's fucked?
[1:30:47] Speaker 2: Just like these girls walking home and like the worst
[1:30:50] Speaker 2: case scenario, and these motherfuckers novermore. Some of them were
[1:30:54] Speaker 2: bragging it to people about the crime, no explanation. It
[1:30:59] Speaker 2: was kind of an informal gang initiation, like a like
[1:31:03] Speaker 2: a rite of passage or something. But also what's crazy
[1:31:08] Speaker 2: is a local TV program did a thing on gangs
[1:31:11] Speaker 2: the day before and the day before the killings, and
[1:31:15] Speaker 2: O'Brien appeared on camera holding a beer and said human
[1:31:18] Speaker 2: life means nothing like So that aired the day before,
[1:31:22] Speaker 2: and that's according to the New York Times, and these
[1:31:25] Speaker 2: guys were drinking heavily and within minutes these girls were
[1:31:29] Speaker 2: being raped and strangled. Very sad. They were raped for
[1:31:33] Speaker 2: an hour before they were killed. And even after they
[1:31:36] Speaker 2: were dead, these guys like stomped on these girls, dragged
[1:31:39] Speaker 2: their bodies, naked bodies into the woods and they were
[1:31:43] Speaker 2: found four days later, and during what the Times describes
[1:31:47] Speaker 2: as a frantic search by friends and relatives. And in court,
[1:31:51] Speaker 2: these guys were out of control. They swore at people,
[1:31:53] Speaker 2: tried to kick a camera out of a news photographer's hand.
[1:31:56] Speaker 2: The prosecution had well way more than enough evidence. But
[1:32:00] Speaker 2: on Smith, the eighty a and the case said, and
[1:32:02] Speaker 2: the Time reports that it's the hardest case he's ever
[1:32:05] Speaker 2: had to prosecute emotionally, even though he had a very
[1:32:09] Speaker 2: strong case. The fourteen year old was looking at forty
[1:32:12] Speaker 2: years the rest of them, the death penalty. It is Texas.
[1:32:15] Speaker 2: All five of the older teens got death penalty, and
[1:32:18] Speaker 2: the juvenile did get the max of forty And when
[1:32:21] Speaker 2: three of the murderers got the death penalty, one of
[1:32:23] Speaker 2: the fathers yelled out, we live for the day that
[1:32:25] Speaker 2: you die, and that's the Tampa Bay Times. And then
[1:32:29] Speaker 2: he said, I'll watch you die, boy, And I think,
[1:32:32] Speaker 2: I kind of think that's hot, Like I don't know,
[1:32:35] Speaker 2: a grief stricken father, like I didn't think, but I'm
[1:32:38] Speaker 2: into it. And then he also said, you are worse
[1:32:40] Speaker 2: than spit. You belong in hell. And then the other
[1:32:43] Speaker 2: dad said, I wish that these guys could get executed
[1:32:46] Speaker 2: the way they did and be left out there, just
[1:32:49] Speaker 2: left there on the ground to die. And then the
[1:32:52] Speaker 2: dad also said five for five, that's what I wanted.
[1:32:55] Speaker 2: And the fathers were allowed to confront these guys because
[1:32:59] Speaker 2: of a Texas law that allows victims or their surviving
[1:33:01] Speaker 2: relatives to speak at the sentencing. But yeah, and it
[1:33:06] Speaker 2: was quick, like for one of them, the jury took
[1:33:08] Speaker 2: less than fifteen minutes to give them death. Like these
[1:33:10] Speaker 2: it's like the worst case.
[1:33:12] Speaker 1: I mean, if you're bragging about it, I don't even
[1:33:14] Speaker 1: know why. Why was there even a trial. Why didn't
[1:33:15] Speaker 1: they just plead guilty. Well, they probably didn't want to
[1:33:18] Speaker 1: plead guilty. Yeah, what do they give a fuck? Yeah,
[1:33:21] Speaker 1: but it's like, I don't know, I guess it prolongs
[1:33:23] Speaker 1: your time being alive.
[1:33:24] Speaker 2: Oh, trying well, yeah, trying not to get to the
[1:33:26] Speaker 2: death penalty. I guess. Yeah. There was no way. There's
[1:33:30] Speaker 2: just no fucking way. Yeah, you murdered two rare.
[1:33:33] Speaker 1: But I mean they might not have gotten the death
[1:33:34] Speaker 1: penalty if they'd shown up with like their hair combed
[1:33:36] Speaker 1: and been like alcohol got the best of me, you
[1:33:38] Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like they could have tried. They're
[1:33:41] Speaker 1: fucking wilding out and hitting photographers and swearing at people.
[1:33:45] Speaker 2: Honestly, I'm shocked that the trial wasn't even moved. People
[1:33:48] Speaker 2: hate them, So I mean it was like, yeah, people
[1:33:51] Speaker 2: fucking hated this case. Of course. Obviously. The next sad
[1:33:56] Speaker 2: one is the case of Michelle Bouscha. The nickname of
[1:33:59] Speaker 2: this is Blue Earth Jane Doe because so many Jane
[1:34:04] Speaker 2: Doe's you have to like differentiate. So this woman was
[1:34:08] Speaker 2: eighteen years old when she was found murdered in nineteen
[1:34:10] Speaker 2: eighty and it took thirty five years to identify her.
[1:34:15] Speaker 2: A DNA match from a family member helped link the
[1:34:18] Speaker 2: body of Michelle to a missing Texas woman. But this
[1:34:22] Speaker 2: is actually all in Minnesota, and none of her family
[1:34:24] Speaker 2: or nobody knew she was even ever in Minnesota. They
[1:34:27] Speaker 2: just reported her missing May nineteen eighty from their base City,
[1:34:31] Speaker 2: Texas home. So the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, Oh
[1:34:35] Speaker 2: my god, this is is this fat Bureau of Critical Apprehection,
[1:34:41] Speaker 2: But they're called BCA, not fat. Sure, but it could
[1:34:44] Speaker 2: be a different thing. But we were talking about how
[1:34:46] Speaker 2: it might not even be real, but it's real. Yeah,
[1:34:50] Speaker 2: oh my god. Okay. So deb Anderson, a retired police officer,
[1:34:54] Speaker 2: couldn't believe someone could die unidentified, and especially in her
[1:34:58] Speaker 2: small ass blue town of Earth, so she launched a
[1:35:01] Speaker 2: fourteen year campaign to identify Blue Earth Jane Do And
[1:35:05] Speaker 2: of course the local sheriff's department were like, go fuck yourself,
[1:35:08] Speaker 2: we don't give a shit, and they drag their feet
[1:35:09] Speaker 2: the whole time. But in twenty fifteen, a seventy five
[1:35:13] Speaker 2: year old retired chief Deputy share of Jerry Cabe was
[1:35:16] Speaker 2: one of the officers who investigated her murder, and he
[1:35:19] Speaker 2: said he's like thought about it every single day, so
[1:35:22] Speaker 2: he talked about it then. But basically, this person was
[1:35:25] Speaker 2: found in a ravine off Interstate ninety east of Blue Earth, Minnesota,
[1:35:29] Speaker 2: on May thirtieth, nineteen eighty. Robert Nelson is a Minnesota
[1:35:33] Speaker 2: state trooper, and he confessed to the murder nine years later.
[1:35:36] Speaker 2: So he like they found the murder before they were
[1:35:40] Speaker 2: able to identify the body because he's a piece of shit,
[1:35:42] Speaker 2: doesn't know her name, didn't know who she was, didn't
[1:35:44] Speaker 2: give a fuck. Right again, these details are really bad.
[1:35:48] Speaker 2: So he handcuffed the woman, raped her, pulled off her
[1:35:51] Speaker 2: nails with a pair of pliers as she screamed, then
[1:35:55] Speaker 2: strangled her and he was on duty the whole time.
[1:35:58] Speaker 2: Oh my god, and he but okay, so then this
[1:36:03] Speaker 2: this gets not super complicated. But like he was already
[1:36:08] Speaker 2: in custody for other charges when he was convicted of
[1:36:11] Speaker 2: the Jane Doe murder and from that got a life
[1:36:14] Speaker 2: sentence in Texas. But again, he did not help. He
[1:36:17] Speaker 2: couldn't identify her. But he also admitted to beating and
[1:36:20] Speaker 2: sexually assaulting his young son over a period of years.
[1:36:23] Speaker 2: So he was just like a contest like Debrie, just
[1:36:26] Speaker 2: like a fucking sadist, like a crazy oh yeah. And
[1:36:31] Speaker 2: so the BCA and a national DNA database filled with
[1:36:35] Speaker 2: samples from family members of missing people to find a
[1:36:38] Speaker 2: match using bones from an exhumed Jane Doe's unmarked grave
[1:36:42] Speaker 2: and bouch of family members gave their DNA to be
[1:36:45] Speaker 2: matched to unidentified remains around the country and so the
[1:36:49] Speaker 2: family can finally have peace. And the BCA is like,
[1:36:53] Speaker 2: if you have missing family members, contact them so they
[1:36:56] Speaker 2: can have samples of their DNA. And yeah, so after
[1:37:00] Speaker 2: thirty five years they were able to bring her roomate.
[1:37:02] Speaker 1: They didn't really know how she got from Texas to Minnesota.
[1:37:06] Speaker 2: No one, no, I mean, damn yeah, that's so crazy.
[1:37:11] Speaker 2: Ooh sadistic Psychoh yeah, so we have another one. Unfortunately,
[1:37:18] Speaker 2: this is the case of George Schaeffer. So basically, skeletal
[1:37:22] Speaker 2: remains were found in a Florida mangrove swamp in nineteen
[1:37:25] Speaker 2: seventy four. In twenty twenty two, they finally felt like
[1:37:28] Speaker 2: they identified her and surmised that she had fallen victim
[1:37:31] Speaker 2: to the serial killer for a long time. She was
[1:37:34] Speaker 2: named Singer Island Jane Doe and a Texas based genetic
[1:37:39] Speaker 2: genealogist helped the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office identify Susan
[1:37:44] Speaker 2: gayl Pool. She was fifteen when her family reported her
[1:37:47] Speaker 2: missing from their Broward County trailer park just before Christmas
[1:37:51] Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy two. She had hitchhiked once before, and
[1:37:54] Speaker 2: nobody knew if she had left or was taken. You know,
[1:37:56] Speaker 2: the seventies seemed crazy, like the seventies in terms of
[1:38:01] Speaker 2: murder and hitch hike and all of that and no
[1:38:04] Speaker 2: evid like it just seems like a fucked time. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:38:10] Speaker 2: The morning of June sixteenth, nineteen seventy four, was when
[1:38:14] Speaker 2: the first sign of the missing teen was found. A
[1:38:16] Speaker 2: man and his sons found scattered human remains in scraps
[1:38:19] Speaker 2: of clothing, and then she was tied up with wire
[1:38:24] Speaker 2: to a tree and there was only bones left. And
[1:38:26] Speaker 2: they tried using dental records to id her, but they
[1:38:30] Speaker 2: didn't and the case went cold. But then more bodies
[1:38:34] Speaker 2: kept piling up, assaults and deaths on several other women
[1:38:37] Speaker 2: in Palm Beach. So July nineteen seventy two, there's two
[1:38:40] Speaker 2: vacationing teens. They're hitchhiking again. By the beach, they encountered
[1:38:45] Speaker 2: a police officer Martin County Sheriff's deputy named Gerard Schaeffer,
[1:38:49] Speaker 2: and he was now about this guy. He was fired
[1:38:52] Speaker 2: from his last police job with Wilton Manors Police for
[1:38:54] Speaker 2: pulling over women, then looking up their information, and then
[1:38:58] Speaker 2: asking them out on dates. Then he got hired nearby.
[1:39:01] Speaker 2: Don't worry, but another police department didn't hire him because
[1:39:04] Speaker 2: he failed a psych exam and like most cops, and
[1:39:08] Speaker 2: like most cops, failure right. He tried to be a priest,
[1:39:10] Speaker 2: they said no, thank you. He tried to be a teacher,
[1:39:12] Speaker 2: they said absolutely not, and so many signs, so many signs.
[1:39:16] Speaker 2: Classic Dad beat him because but not his sisters. So
[1:39:19] Speaker 2: then he wanted to be a girl. So he like
[1:39:21] Speaker 2: he hated women too, because he got the ship beat
[1:39:24] Speaker 2: out of him and his sisters didn't. He loved women's underwear.
[1:39:26] Speaker 2: He became a peeping tom. I always say we need
[1:39:28] Speaker 2: him nip that in the bud. Peeping tom automatic chemical castration.
[1:39:34] Speaker 2: He killed animals. He'd beheaded cows and had sex with
[1:39:37] Speaker 2: the carcasses. Oh my god. He would then take the
[1:39:41] Speaker 2: stolen underwear to tie himself up to a tree with
[1:39:44] Speaker 2: a noose and hurt himself while masturbating. Oh god, deeply,
[1:39:49] Speaker 2: deeply fucked one supervisor. And this is medium dot com,
[1:39:52] Speaker 2: so like take what you want. But one supervisor's quoted
[1:39:56] Speaker 2: saying he'd better never let me hear of his trying
[1:39:59] Speaker 2: to get a job with any authority over other people,
[1:40:02] Speaker 2: or I would do anything I could to prevent it.
[1:40:05] Speaker 2: But thank god this place hired him. He one time
[1:40:08] Speaker 2: to a former fiance, confessed that he thought about killing women,
[1:40:11] Speaker 2: and so she dumped him, and then his ex wife
[1:40:14] Speaker 2: divorced him on grounds of extreme cruelty. And so he
[1:40:18] Speaker 2: told these two girls that he sees on a beach
[1:40:20] Speaker 2: he is on duty, Nancy Ellen Trotter and Paula Suell's.
[1:40:24] Speaker 2: They're eighteen and seventeen years old. He said, hitchhiking's illegal.
[1:40:28] Speaker 2: It wasn't. He drove them back to their apartment and
[1:40:31] Speaker 2: also was like, you know, I can actually just take
[1:40:33] Speaker 2: you to the beach the next morning. So he picked
[1:40:35] Speaker 2: them up. Did not take him to the beach. He
[1:40:37] Speaker 2: took them to a dilapidated shed on Hutchinson Island, where
[1:40:40] Speaker 2: he gagged and handcuffed them. He bound each girl to
[1:40:43] Speaker 2: a tree, tied a noose around their necks and forced
[1:40:45] Speaker 2: them to stand on exposed tree roots. But he had
[1:40:49] Speaker 2: to leave, so he got a call. Thank fucking god,
[1:40:51] Speaker 2: he got a dispatch, and so the girls escaped. But
[1:40:55] Speaker 2: before that, he was like, tell me which one of
[1:40:58] Speaker 2: you I'm going to kill first, and then was like,
[1:41:01] Speaker 2: or I'm going to sell you to sexual slavery. He
[1:41:04] Speaker 2: raped them while they're standing on these tree roots, got
[1:41:07] Speaker 2: called to a job, luckiest radio call ever. And so
[1:41:10] Speaker 2: then when he learned about the girl's escape, he admitted
[1:41:13] Speaker 2: what he did. He went to his boss and he goes,
[1:41:16] Speaker 2: and this is according to like Local seven news a
[1:41:18] Speaker 2: kiro and he goes, hey, I've done something foolish. You're
[1:41:23] Speaker 2: going to be mad at me. He said he had
[1:41:25] Speaker 2: over done his job while trying to teach the girls
[1:41:28] Speaker 2: a lesson about the dangers of hitchhiking. Nobody believed him,
[1:41:31] Speaker 2: which is actually the most shocking part of all of this.
[1:41:33] Speaker 2: Like I was like, oh, the boss was gonna let
[1:41:35] Speaker 2: him go. Like when I read that nobody believed him,
[1:41:38] Speaker 2: I was like what. So he was arrested. He was
[1:41:43] Speaker 2: arrested in charged with aggravated assault and false imprisonment. And
[1:41:47] Speaker 2: then but he got a deal, so he's a cop
[1:41:49] Speaker 2: that did this. He did get a deal. So in
[1:41:51] Speaker 2: exchange for pleading guilty to one count of aggravated assault,
[1:41:54] Speaker 2: he would do one year in jail, three years probation,
[1:41:56] Speaker 2: and then he requested have another six months bond, and
[1:41:59] Speaker 2: his request was granted. Oh my god, back to not shocking. Right.
[1:42:05] Speaker 2: He was then free on fifteen thousand dollars bail. Bagel. Okay,
[1:42:09] Speaker 2: someone's hungry. So he was then freed on fifteen thousand
[1:42:12] Speaker 2: dollars bail. When he struck again and the not shocking again,
[1:42:16] Speaker 2: not shocking I wrote it. I was just like, okay,
[1:42:18] Speaker 2: So they let him go. They let him go, and
[1:42:22] Speaker 2: he of course attacked and no survivors this time. So
[1:42:27] Speaker 2: Susan placed seventeen Georgia jessip Is sixteen. They vanished from
[1:42:31] Speaker 2: Fort Lauderdale September twenty seventh, nineteen seventy two. This is
[1:42:36] Speaker 2: strange place. His mother told police that they left with
[1:42:40] Speaker 2: an older man that they used to call Jerry Shepherd
[1:42:43] Speaker 2: to go to the beach, and then they were never
[1:42:44] Speaker 2: seen alive again. And she was so creeped out by
[1:42:47] Speaker 2: their friend that she wrote down their his license plate
[1:42:49] Speaker 2: number because she got a bad feeling. But like, why
[1:42:53] Speaker 2: is this old man hanging out with her teen daughter? Yeah,
[1:42:56] Speaker 2: but it's the seventies. Man.
[1:42:58] Speaker 3: I feel like they're like, he's just this guy. We
[1:43:00] Speaker 3: know he's gonna give us a ride to the beach,
[1:43:02] Speaker 3: like free law.
[1:43:03] Speaker 2: Like I don't know. I feel like people were not
[1:43:05] Speaker 2: girls are hitchhiking. People are kind of like not hovering
[1:43:09] Speaker 2: over their kids as much. I know. It's very fucked up.
[1:43:13] Speaker 2: So six months later, the remains were found April first,
[1:43:16] Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three by another father and son looking for
[1:43:18] Speaker 2: aluminum cans on Hutchinson Island. It's like the island of
[1:43:22] Speaker 2: father's son adventure, six miles away from the girls that
[1:43:26] Speaker 2: were attacked the previous summer, so right around there, and
[1:43:29] Speaker 2: the girls again bound to a tree, murdered, beheaded, dismembered.
[1:43:34] Speaker 2: So when their bodies were found, he was serving a
[1:43:37] Speaker 2: six month sentence for the assault from the last summer
[1:43:41] Speaker 2: with the girls that survived, right so he was. So
[1:43:45] Speaker 2: he was convicted of this the assault case of those
[1:43:48] Speaker 2: two girls on December twenty second, nineteen seventy two, but
[1:43:52] Speaker 2: the judge allowed his formal sentencing of jail term to
[1:43:56] Speaker 2: begin after the holidays, they convictim, they let him do Christmas,
[1:44:01] Speaker 2: and then he gets more victims and then so he's
[1:44:03] Speaker 2: in jail serving this minimum sentence when these other bodies
[1:44:06] Speaker 2: are found. So, yeah, if this is confusing, I'm confused too.
[1:44:10] Speaker 2: It's the Tampa Bay Times. I don't know what to
[1:44:11] Speaker 2: tell you. It's Florida. But like, basically, you know, he
[1:44:16] Speaker 2: gets arrested for the assaults of these two young girls.
[1:44:20] Speaker 2: They let him out a bond, and then when he's
[1:44:23] Speaker 2: finally convicted December twenty second, he's like, hey, can I
[1:44:26] Speaker 2: at least do Christmas at home and then go to
[1:44:28] Speaker 2: prison And the judge goes, all right, man, And so
[1:44:32] Speaker 2: then he finds these two young girls, murders them, and
[1:44:37] Speaker 2: then self reports to this like six month stint, and
[1:44:41] Speaker 2: then in April, father and son looking for aluminum cans,
[1:44:45] Speaker 2: find their bodies. Found the bodies, murder, dismembered, all of it,
[1:44:50] Speaker 2: and so he was finally like, yeah, it's so like
[1:44:54] Speaker 2: if it wasn't if they just put him in prison
[1:44:56] Speaker 2: and didn't let him do Christmas at home, these girls
[1:44:58] Speaker 2: would be alive. Yeah, so we got life in prison
[1:45:01] Speaker 2: and these were the only homicide Schaeffer was convicted of
[1:45:04] Speaker 2: even though he was a potential suspect and as many
[1:45:07] Speaker 2: as thirty killings dating back to nineteen sixty nine. And
[1:45:11] Speaker 2: then in the nineteen nineties, one of his old girlfriends,
[1:45:13] Speaker 2: Sandra London, a crime writer, reached out to him and
[1:45:15] Speaker 2: he wrote to her that he killed between eighty and
[1:45:18] Speaker 2: one hundred and ten women. She handed the info over
[1:45:21] Speaker 2: to the authorities, but they never really talked to it,
[1:45:23] Speaker 2: like nothing really happened with that. And he was publicly
[1:45:26] Speaker 2: being like, I'm innocent, I'm innocent, I'm innocent, but confessing
[1:45:29] Speaker 2: all this to her. So then she confronted him and
[1:45:32] Speaker 2: he flew into a rage and threatened her life, so
[1:45:34] Speaker 2: she cut off all contact. And good news. He was
[1:45:37] Speaker 2: stabbed to death in December nineteen ninety five. We are
[1:45:40] Speaker 2: against the death penalty and state sanctioned murder, but we
[1:45:43] Speaker 2: love these guys to die. And it was by a
[1:45:46] Speaker 2: fellow inmate at Florida State Prison. It was over a
[1:45:49] Speaker 2: hot cup of water, like nothing whatever, and he had
[1:45:51] Speaker 2: over seven sorry, and he had over forty stab wounds.
[1:45:55] Speaker 2: What his eye's throat, he was cut from ear to ear,
[1:45:59] Speaker 2: slit in half, like all of it and so that's
[1:46:01] Speaker 2: pretty good.
[1:46:02] Speaker 1: So wait, so did he ever get he got busted
[1:46:06] Speaker 1: on the two girls, these last two girls, But then
[1:46:10] Speaker 1: what about the girl whose body was there for like
[1:46:12] Speaker 1: two years, Susan Pooley.
[1:46:14] Speaker 3: Did he get hurt for her or no?
[1:46:16] Speaker 2: Those are the only ones he was convicted of.
[1:46:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, they probably can't prove it because she was like bones,
[1:46:20] Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's fucking terrible.
[1:46:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, so these are like really bad. So maybe Chesterlake
[1:46:27] Speaker 2: did do a solid by killing these guys, yeah, and
[1:46:30] Speaker 2: sacrificing himself to go to jail. But the other thing
[1:46:33] Speaker 2: is he's a hero.
[1:46:35] Speaker 1: I think they could have looked into that guy's jacket.
[1:46:37] Speaker 1: They could have looked into him, and they could have
[1:46:39] Speaker 1: found him guilty of a lot of crimes. There's no
[1:46:41] Speaker 1: way if this guy didn't get away with this rape
[1:46:44] Speaker 1: ten years ago that he hasn't done a million more
[1:46:46] Speaker 1: crimes since then. They could have gotten him and then
[1:46:48] Speaker 1: he would have had to actually pay and get justice
[1:46:51] Speaker 1: for his crimes. Like, I don't know, just feels like
[1:46:54] Speaker 1: killing him Chester killing him is not like you want
[1:46:58] Speaker 1: like a cop to have to like be subject to
[1:47:01] Speaker 1: the same system that they've put so many people through.
[1:47:03] Speaker 1: Sometimes wrongly, you know, yeah, but you don't always get
[1:47:08] Speaker 1: what you want. All right, Well, we have a sick guest,
[1:47:12] Speaker 1: so don't go anywhere. Our guest today is a prolific
[1:47:20] Speaker 1: TV writer who has written some of the most iconic, darkest,
[1:47:24] Speaker 1: hauntingest episodes of SVU. We have been wanting to get
[1:47:29] Speaker 1: her on this podcast for a long time and through
[1:47:31] Speaker 1: the help of a listener, Thank you to that listener,
[1:47:33] Speaker 1: we were able to get her. She's also written episodes
[1:47:35] Speaker 1: of CSI, Criminal Minds, and doc Please enjoy our chat
[1:47:40] Speaker 1: with the very talented Judith McCreary.
[1:47:44] Speaker 2: So excited to meet you. This is awesome. Thank you
[1:47:47] Speaker 2: for yelling the name of episodes at you. I mean,
[1:47:50] Speaker 2: what what a stretch, What an sv stretch you've had? Well,
[1:47:57] Speaker 2: I was with Wolf Films. Let me see.
[1:48:01] Speaker 5: I started on a show called New York Undercover in
[1:48:04] Speaker 5: the mid nineties and I was with them for three
[1:48:09] Speaker 5: years I think, and then SVU I came on in
[1:48:13] Speaker 5: two thousand and then that run was finally over in
[1:48:17] Speaker 5: twenty twelve. So a long time going back and forth
[1:48:24] Speaker 5: to New York. You go for three weeks, you come
[1:48:28] Speaker 5: home for three weeks, you go back for three weeks
[1:48:31] Speaker 5: and I did that for what fifteen years?
[1:48:35] Speaker 2: Wow?
[1:48:36] Speaker 1: Well, well, I was gonna say, so you started out
[1:48:38] Speaker 1: on New York Undercover?
[1:48:40] Speaker 2: Was that? I mean, judge, just judging by your IMDb,
[1:48:42] Speaker 2: that's like one of your first writing jobs you had.
[1:48:45] Speaker 2: You had a few other things, but that was like
[1:48:48] Speaker 2: your first regular thing. So what happened? You get in
[1:48:52] Speaker 2: good with Dick Wolf and he just brings you over to.
[1:48:54] Speaker 3: The next thing, like what's the you know?
[1:48:58] Speaker 5: It was like this, he said to me in our
[1:49:02] Speaker 5: first meeting, you write like a man.
[1:49:05] Speaker 2: Okay.
[1:49:06] Speaker 5: Now, if women heard that today, they'd be so offended.
[1:49:10] Speaker 5: But I was Dorothy Parker, and so I was like, yeah, wow.
[1:49:18] Speaker 5: And I took it as a compliment because when that
[1:49:23] Speaker 5: New York Going to Cover was my first job in
[1:49:25] Speaker 5: television period. I was doing features. But in features you
[1:49:30] Speaker 5: have tussle, and so at one point I had like
[1:49:35] Speaker 5: five features going at once because I went from studio
[1:49:38] Speaker 5: to studio to set things up. They can set things
[1:49:43] Speaker 5: up and they never see the light of day. You're
[1:49:46] Speaker 5: just writing and working and writing and working, and you're
[1:49:49] Speaker 5: always pitching, always pitching. But the great thing about it
[1:49:54] Speaker 5: was it prepared me to be in the Wolf Camp
[1:49:57] Speaker 5: because they don't spoon feed beneath it. You have to
[1:50:01] Speaker 5: be able to break your own story, come to the table,
[1:50:05] Speaker 5: pitch to the writer's room, every last facet of that story.
[1:50:10] Speaker 5: You don't get it spoon fed to you today. It's
[1:50:13] Speaker 5: spoon fed and it I just think it makes for
[1:50:16] Speaker 5: weak writers if you can't seek you out how to
[1:50:19] Speaker 5: break your own story.
[1:50:21] Speaker 1: So we've spoken to Samantha Corbin, who I think you
[1:50:26] Speaker 1: overlapped with, and then another writer from from later seasons,
[1:50:31] Speaker 1: and it seems like it's very Do you think that's
[1:50:35] Speaker 1: specific to the Dick Wolf rooms, because most of the
[1:50:37] Speaker 1: time you hear about like just a ton of writers
[1:50:39] Speaker 1: in a room. They all break story together and then
[1:50:41] Speaker 1: they kind of can go off and do their own episodes.
[1:50:43] Speaker 1: But from what they made it sound like to us,
[1:50:45] Speaker 1: it's like very solitary. When you work on these shows,
[1:50:48] Speaker 1: you kind of do a lot on your own.
[1:50:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's me. It's not like your experience at
[1:50:53] Speaker 2: CSI and like other procedurals, or you think.
[1:50:56] Speaker 3: That's like a dick Wolf thing.
[1:50:58] Speaker 5: At CSI, it was a room room and you broke
[1:51:02] Speaker 5: the story in the room with the other writers. At
[1:51:06] Speaker 5: Wolf Films, when you came to the table, that story
[1:51:10] Speaker 5: better be broken because the writers were only supposed to
[1:51:16] Speaker 5: spackle your holes or point out logic problems, or help
[1:51:21] Speaker 5: you to frame it to tighten it, but they weren't
[1:51:24] Speaker 5: involved in the creation of it. So when you look
[1:51:28] Speaker 5: at the writer's credit, it's actually true.
[1:51:32] Speaker 2: Yeah. When it says written by it's truly written by. Wow.
[1:51:38] Speaker 2: So that it's just like they you.
[1:51:43] Speaker 5: You get on the show and when it's your turn,
[1:51:46] Speaker 5: they throw you in the deep end of the pool
[1:51:49] Speaker 5: and if you can't swim, you're gone.
[1:51:51] Speaker 2: Yeah. And then did they give you like a crime
[1:51:56] Speaker 2: or a medical thing or it was truly you. You
[1:51:59] Speaker 2: found the us for the episodes as well.
[1:52:03] Speaker 5: Everybody looked at like you'd have a list, kind of
[1:52:07] Speaker 5: like research areas. I always went to the McKinney's book
[1:52:13] Speaker 5: that you know, laid out what the law is.
[1:52:17] Speaker 2: In New York.
[1:52:18] Speaker 5: So, because we were mixed in with the law and
[1:52:21] Speaker 5: order writers, criminal intent wasn't in our building. But they
[1:52:27] Speaker 5: had a lot of lawyers, a lot of prosecutors, a
[1:52:30] Speaker 5: lot of defense attorneys, and everybody had a set of
[1:52:32] Speaker 5: McKinney's on their shelf. So I got my own set
[1:52:36] Speaker 5: of McKinney's and sometimes by reading cases that changed the legislature.
[1:52:43] Speaker 2: That would be my inspiration.
[1:52:47] Speaker 5: If it was something that I read, you know, you
[1:52:53] Speaker 5: could go into fine law. There were like search engines
[1:52:56] Speaker 5: you could go into to find your story, to find
[1:53:01] Speaker 5: your jumping off point. But like with I notice people
[1:53:09] Speaker 5: used to say that my stories are very very dark. Yeah,
[1:53:14] Speaker 5: and it was kind of where it was comfortable living.
[1:53:19] Speaker 5: I would actually sometimes get the murder books and deva
[1:53:25] Speaker 5: from whatever the story was. I would hear stories from
[1:53:29] Speaker 5: our tas, from our technical advisors because.
[1:53:33] Speaker 2: They actually lived it.
[1:53:36] Speaker 5: Even technical advisors from other shows would tell me stories
[1:53:42] Speaker 5: that resonated so much it lived with me for a
[1:53:48] Speaker 5: very long time, and I would use like pieces of
[1:53:51] Speaker 5: it in other scripts.
[1:53:55] Speaker 1: Yeah, because we had We've talked to Neil Barr a
[1:53:57] Speaker 1: couple of times, and he would know, I think he
[1:54:00] Speaker 1: comes at it from like the medical side of things
[1:54:02] Speaker 1: and would read medical journals and then say, how can
[1:54:06] Speaker 1: we put this into an episode? But it's interesting that
[1:54:08] Speaker 1: you kind of were coming at it more from like
[1:54:10] Speaker 1: the legislature and the law side of things. Looking at this, Yeah,
[1:54:15] Speaker 1: Kinney's book, I got to check that out.
[1:54:18] Speaker 2: It's Mick it's Mick Kenney's.
[1:54:21] Speaker 5: Yeah, it's but they use now it's all digital. You
[1:54:25] Speaker 5: can go onl you don't have to physically have the books.
[1:54:29] Speaker 5: But I pretty much I think I took my my set.
[1:54:37] Speaker 5: I probably wasn't supposed to do that, but I took
[1:54:40] Speaker 5: my set. But it to me, I still like holding
[1:54:45] Speaker 5: a book. I'm gonna continue to hold the book because,
[1:54:50] Speaker 5: like I was telling your guy that was trying to
[1:54:53] Speaker 5: step me up, I was like, you're talking to the
[1:54:55] Speaker 5: biggest ledite that ever lived.
[1:54:57] Speaker 2: I still write out.
[1:55:00] Speaker 5: I handwrite out my scripts first, really, and then type
[1:55:05] Speaker 5: them in. I'll only do certain sections like that, but
[1:55:09] Speaker 5: I also it's a form of rewriting, So I long
[1:55:14] Speaker 5: hand it and then I'll type it in, and every
[1:55:19] Speaker 5: day I'll go back to the beginning. So by the
[1:55:22] Speaker 5: time I get to the end of the script, the
[1:55:23] Speaker 5: first half of the script is really tight and the
[1:55:27] Speaker 5: last half is really Lucy goosey. And I'll just be like,
[1:55:30] Speaker 5: where did your talent go?
[1:55:33] Speaker 2: Well? Find it? Are there certain actors or characters that
[1:55:44] Speaker 2: you enjoyed writing for more or excited to do or
[1:55:47] Speaker 2: specific storylines that or did you know even like the
[1:55:52] Speaker 2: guest stars before they came or were they cast after
[1:55:55] Speaker 2: like some of the bigger names. Well, Chris, okay, that's
[1:56:01] Speaker 2: what you know. We want to talk about lucas well.
[1:56:05] Speaker 5: Ludacris was planned. Ludacris was planned. I knew his publicist.
[1:56:11] Speaker 5: She was a very good friend of mine. She said, Uh,
[1:56:16] Speaker 5: will you do this favor for me? And I was like,
[1:56:19] Speaker 5: this is not a favor. I can do this, which
[1:56:24] Speaker 5: is why I actually planned for it to be a
[1:56:29] Speaker 5: two parter.
[1:56:31] Speaker 2: And I actually.
[1:56:35] Speaker 5: Wanted it to be a year apart, which is how
[1:56:38] Speaker 5: long it takes to mount a murder case.
[1:56:42] Speaker 2: So that part.
[1:56:44] Speaker 5: Actually reflected reality as opposed to you know, how they
[1:56:51] Speaker 5: did it on Law and Order, where it's half cops,
[1:56:53] Speaker 5: half lawyer. They're not telling you and you have to
[1:56:57] Speaker 5: know that it takes a year to a year and
[1:56:59] Speaker 5: a half to bring a murder case to trial.
[1:57:02] Speaker 2: It's a long marathon. Yeah, and he's brought down SVU.
[1:57:08] Speaker 2: I mean he kind of he fucked them all over
[1:57:12] Speaker 2: and got away with it. He's for us. We really
[1:57:19] Speaker 2: really want to talk to Lucer. When people don't know
[1:57:21] Speaker 2: the SVU universe and you tell they always ask like
[1:57:24] Speaker 2: who are your dream guests? And you go ludicrous and
[1:57:26] Speaker 2: they're like, wait what, and I'm like, and one of
[1:57:28] Speaker 2: the worst villains of the show.
[1:57:31] Speaker 1: He's excellent, Like, I'm surprised he hasn't done more. I
[1:57:35] Speaker 1: know he does the Fast and the Furious movies, right,
[1:57:38] Speaker 1: seeing some of.
[1:57:38] Speaker 2: Those, but like, you know, he's like, was really good.
[1:57:41] Speaker 2: He went to space and the last one in a pontiac.
[1:57:44] Speaker 5: I thought, well, we actually went out with a show
[1:57:49] Speaker 5: and we pitched it everywhere Bowie can get it set up,
[1:57:53] Speaker 5: and it sort of bummed me out because to me,
[1:57:56] Speaker 5: I thought it was a no brainer. Uh, but I'm
[1:58:01] Speaker 5: not giving up, Like there's other things to do, Like
[1:58:05] Speaker 5: it's really interesting. It's like right now I'm sort of
[1:58:09] Speaker 5: in development hell on a couple different things. And when
[1:58:13] Speaker 5: I say hell, it's because the business got upended and
[1:58:17] Speaker 5: nobody truly knows what it is now and nobody's really sure,
[1:58:24] Speaker 5: Like I can't even tell you what elements they're looking
[1:58:27] Speaker 5: for to actually give them what they want. So it's
[1:58:30] Speaker 5: always kind of a crap shoot and you're shooting in
[1:58:32] Speaker 5: the dark and you're hoping that you're hitting the paper targets,
[1:58:36] Speaker 5: and a lot of times they'll be like that pitch
[1:58:39] Speaker 5: was great, but it's it's not for us.
[1:58:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I go, what is for you?
[1:58:48] Speaker 5: And they can't even verbalize it because they're not sure themselves.
[1:58:53] Speaker 5: So it's a little bit you know, I don't want
[1:58:56] Speaker 5: to make excuses for my failures.
[1:58:58] Speaker 2: I'm just telling you. I know, it's just reality. That's
[1:59:01] Speaker 2: just what's happening right now.
[1:59:02] Speaker 1: I mean, I've yeah, I have so many friends who
[1:59:04] Speaker 1: have been going through the same They're like, we're gonna
[1:59:06] Speaker 1: do this is actually too close to something else we have.
[1:59:09] Speaker 1: It's like what thing they don't eat, Like they don't
[1:59:11] Speaker 1: even really have it. It's like all very no one knows. Yeah,
[1:59:16] Speaker 1: and everyone's executive is always getting fired right after they
[1:59:19] Speaker 1: they buy something, then they get fired, and then you
[1:59:21] Speaker 1: have to see if the next executive wants it.
[1:59:23] Speaker 3: Like you know, it's this never ending.
[1:59:27] Speaker 2: Kind of bureaucrisis. Everyone's a loser. Well it's not so
[1:59:33] Speaker 2: much losing as sort of hedging your bets.
[1:59:35] Speaker 5: They're not gambler yet, that's they don't This isn't like
[1:59:40] Speaker 5: back in the day of Brandon Tartakoff, where you had
[1:59:43] Speaker 5: time to put something on and then give it time
[1:59:47] Speaker 5: to find it. Allays Seinfeld never would make it today
[1:59:53] Speaker 5: because they put it on for four episodes, then they
[1:59:57] Speaker 5: halted production, then they retooled.
[1:59:59] Speaker 2: Then put it back on, like there was room to grow.
[2:00:04] Speaker 5: There's no room to grow because there's so much junk.
[2:00:10] Speaker 2: You have to find an audience right away.
[2:00:13] Speaker 5: And it's because I can remember when there was only
[2:00:16] Speaker 5: three chans, yes, and you watched what was.
[2:00:19] Speaker 2: On and you you know that was that.
[2:00:22] Speaker 5: But now if you can go to YouTube, everybody wants
[2:00:26] Speaker 5: to go to YouTube. The networks are afraid of YouTube,
[2:00:30] Speaker 5: and you just go. Maybe YouTube is the answer, so
[2:00:34] Speaker 5: that when you get so bankrupt you have nothing that
[2:00:38] Speaker 5: you figure out, you dial into what it is that
[2:00:41] Speaker 5: you want, even.
[2:00:42] Speaker 1: Though we're having you on today to talk about your
[2:00:45] Speaker 1: entire career. But like specifically, it's tied to the episode Cold,
[2:00:48] Speaker 1: which is the one where chester Lake kind of goes
[2:00:52] Speaker 1: outside of the law, but SODA's sodas Novak and so
[2:00:55] Speaker 1: it's just interesting that you know, did you have some
[2:00:59] Speaker 1: of that in mind when like this plot is like
[2:01:03] Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it was like you guys knew Diane
[2:01:05] Speaker 1: Neil was leaving the show or something, and she had
[2:01:07] Speaker 1: her because it was interesting to me to see her
[2:01:11] Speaker 1: bend the rules and then Lake go up because we
[2:01:14] Speaker 1: never see even though we see Stabler bend them to
[2:01:17] Speaker 1: full on go shoot a guy at the end, we
[2:01:19] Speaker 1: don't see them do that, you know.
[2:01:21] Speaker 5: Right, So well, I was told let's do it it.
[2:01:28] Speaker 5: I sort of complained about this because I was like,
[2:01:31] Speaker 5: why am by the Wolf film's executioner? Because on New
[2:01:37] Speaker 5: York Undercover I had to. I killed one of the
[2:01:43] Speaker 5: detectives in that blew him up in a car and
[2:01:47] Speaker 5: so and then I killed two in that episode.
[2:01:53] Speaker 2: I killed one detective. I shot him.
[2:01:57] Speaker 5: And the funny thing about that one Kinuy was getting
[2:02:02] Speaker 5: fired and he took out his anger on me, and
[2:02:06] Speaker 5: I remember we were in the middle of tenth Avenue
[2:02:10] Speaker 5: and he used his size because he's a big dude,
[2:02:14] Speaker 5: and he was like before I knew it, he was
[2:02:18] Speaker 5: in my face, and rather I stood my ground, but
[2:02:22] Speaker 5: I was like, I'm gonna fix you. And I got
[2:02:25] Speaker 5: in a cab and I went back to my hotel
[2:02:28] Speaker 5: and I rewrote his death and I shot him. I
[2:02:33] Speaker 5: had them empty a clip in his face. Hell yeah,
[2:02:36] Speaker 5: and standards in practices say, you, judy.
[2:02:40] Speaker 2: You cannot do this.
[2:02:43] Speaker 5: You cannot empty that's He was like, that's ten shots
[2:02:48] Speaker 5: I'll said they're criminals. They have a clip that has fifteen.
[2:02:52] Speaker 5: He's like, you can't do that, okay, So I negotiated
[2:02:57] Speaker 5: the number of shots that I could shoot him in
[2:03:00] Speaker 5: the face, and we settled on five.
[2:03:03] Speaker 2: Wow.
[2:03:04] Speaker 4: You had to negotiate shots to the face, yes, because
[2:03:10] Speaker 4: what I wanted was for him to have to stay
[2:03:14] Speaker 4: in the scene after he was dead, because it was
[2:03:18] Speaker 4: just his face.
[2:03:19] Speaker 5: So we had to lay there with his face covered.
[2:03:22] Speaker 5: And I was like, I because I say it, I'm
[2:03:24] Speaker 5: a fix sheep.
[2:03:25] Speaker 2: Some of your other haunting work, I would say is Burned.
[2:03:29] Speaker 2: That's one of our first episodes on the podcast that
[2:03:35] Speaker 2: we covered, and I remember people were like, wow, so right,
[2:03:40] Speaker 2: you guys are just like right off the bat, just
[2:03:42] Speaker 2: gonna get into Burned Like it was so wow. I was.
[2:03:46] Speaker 5: I was angry because look, I was also the person
[2:03:50] Speaker 5: they went to whenever they were over budget. They would
[2:03:55] Speaker 5: come to me and say, save us eight hundred grand,
[2:03:58] Speaker 5: do this, do that, because Neil would spend money expeditiously,
[2:04:04] Speaker 5: you know, on other episodes and pay no attention to
[2:04:09] Speaker 5: the pattern. So Peter Jenkowski or whoever would come to
[2:04:14] Speaker 5: me and say, we need can you just can you
[2:04:17] Speaker 5: write something and just save us the money.
[2:04:20] Speaker 2: Well, I originally wrote Burns.
[2:04:23] Speaker 5: To see her actually get set fire too, and I
[2:04:28] Speaker 5: had to figure out a way to sell it without.
[2:04:31] Speaker 2: It, so I thought about.
[2:04:34] Speaker 5: What came into my mind was Richard Pryor talking about
[2:04:39] Speaker 5: in his stand up talking about debreatment and how the
[2:04:45] Speaker 5: nurses have to get the dead flesh off of you
[2:04:50] Speaker 5: and they have to scrub you, and he made a
[2:04:53] Speaker 5: joke of it, and he's like, every day the nurses
[2:04:56] Speaker 5: were coming by saying we're.
[2:04:57] Speaker 2: Gonna wash you, and we're gonna wash you. You're it's
[2:05:00] Speaker 2: gonna be great. We're gonna wash you. And he was like, yeah, yeah,
[2:05:04] Speaker 2: you keep talking about it.
[2:05:06] Speaker 5: And he goes that sponge hit my burn and I
[2:05:11] Speaker 5: stood straight up in the water said, don't toutch me,
[2:05:17] Speaker 5: because what they're doing is they're removing the dead, burnt
[2:05:24] Speaker 5: flesh off of you so you can actually heal and
[2:05:27] Speaker 5: not die with affection. And they're not using brushes, they're
[2:05:33] Speaker 5: not using it's a sponge, but it's still it's like
[2:05:37] Speaker 5: your nerve endings are underneath all of that. And I
[2:05:42] Speaker 5: don't know why they don't just give a morphine or
[2:05:44] Speaker 5: why they don't just do it when they're unconscious. It's
[2:05:48] Speaker 5: makes no sense to me and the and the nurses,
[2:05:51] Speaker 5: in fact, the nurses who work in the burning And
[2:05:53] Speaker 5: I gotta give it to him because think about it.
[2:05:58] Speaker 5: Think about how many times a kid is coming there
[2:06:00] Speaker 5: because her father went cuckoo and set them on fire
[2:06:03] Speaker 5: or did something crazy like imagining the people that all
[2:06:09] Speaker 5: of the people who are burned, who were attacked, and
[2:06:14] Speaker 5: that includes acid burns and everything else there were attacked,
[2:06:20] Speaker 5: and so you have to have the right temperament to
[2:06:24] Speaker 5: be able to heal those people and nurse those people
[2:06:29] Speaker 5: back to health. So with Burned, I thought about Richard Pryor,
[2:06:36] Speaker 5: and so I wrote it in such a way that
[2:06:39] Speaker 5: they were going to do debreatment on her. You didn't
[2:06:42] Speaker 5: see it happen. You heard that he threw gas lighting
[2:06:46] Speaker 5: on her. And it was based on a true story
[2:06:48] Speaker 5: in Maryland where this full where he was divorced against
[2:06:54] Speaker 5: his wife.
[2:06:55] Speaker 2: They were breaking up and he went to her job.
[2:06:59] Speaker 5: She worked in a t mobile or cover this on
[2:07:02] Speaker 5: the pod, and he threw gasoline. He had it in
[2:07:06] Speaker 5: a sprite bottle. She ran out of the store. He
[2:07:10] Speaker 5: doused her with it. He set her on fire, and
[2:07:13] Speaker 5: I said I need to put that in a script.
[2:07:18] Speaker 5: And when they took away my budget in order to
[2:07:20] Speaker 5: be able to do the stunts, I said, how can
[2:07:23] Speaker 5: I sell it? And I remembered Richard Pryor and I said,
[2:07:27] Speaker 5: that's how to do it. And I told Eric Wisau,
[2:07:33] Speaker 5: I need screams, it's Benson and Stabler walking down the hallway.
[2:07:39] Speaker 5: I need piercing violence.
[2:07:43] Speaker 2: Scrap and it just awful.
[2:07:49] Speaker 1: Did you of like Christopher Maloney, Marishka iced t Belzer,
[2:07:55] Speaker 1: did you have like one of the four major ones
[2:07:57] Speaker 1: that you were always like excited to to get to
[2:07:59] Speaker 1: write for, or pretty much just any of.
[2:08:02] Speaker 5: Them, any of them because they always came to play.
[2:08:07] Speaker 5: I loved it when Belzer was in a scene because
[2:08:10] Speaker 5: he always had Bordeaux in his dressing room and he'd
[2:08:14] Speaker 5: okay ready, I mean because he always brought back the
[2:08:23] Speaker 5: best French wine or bless him.
[2:08:26] Speaker 3: Bless his hard from his home in France.
[2:08:29] Speaker 5: Yeah, I see, would always like surprise me with a
[2:08:34] Speaker 5: little tidbit from his past, you know, and telling me
[2:08:38] Speaker 5: a little story that made me go what.
[2:08:45] Speaker 2: And Marishka was always ready.
[2:08:47] Speaker 5: To, like listen, meet me at ABC home. We'll go shopping,
[2:08:52] Speaker 5: you know, what I mean, like I just coming into
[2:08:55] Speaker 5: New York or even Maloney going you know what you
[2:08:58] Speaker 5: need and I was like, don't tell me because if
[2:09:02] Speaker 5: it's gonna be wrong, I'm.
[2:09:04] Speaker 2: Gonna make you pay. I'm gonna make you pay. Oh
[2:09:10] Speaker 2: my god, I love it. So yeah.
[2:09:12] Speaker 5: So to me, it was like this was lightning in
[2:09:17] Speaker 5: a bottle that you didn't even realize. Even Dan Florick,
[2:09:23] Speaker 5: you know, you just he was our first class member
[2:09:27] Speaker 5: guest because Dan ran the gamut, he was the lieutenant
[2:09:35] Speaker 5: in law and order. He came over to s for you.
[2:09:41] Speaker 5: He like, I think he did a couple of guests
[2:09:45] Speaker 5: stars on maybe criminal intent. I think he was in
[2:09:48] Speaker 5: criminal intent for one or two I don't remember.
[2:09:52] Speaker 2: But like.
[2:09:55] Speaker 5: He sort of was the guy, you know. So we
[2:10:01] Speaker 5: got this lightning in a bottle and we did it
[2:10:06] Speaker 5: realize in the like when it first happened, that that's
[2:10:12] Speaker 5: what it would be, and we wrote to their strengths
[2:10:15] Speaker 5: as much as possible.
[2:10:18] Speaker 2: And we just did what we had to do.
[2:10:22] Speaker 5: Most of the time, it was because the script was
[2:10:25] Speaker 5: due in two days or you know, you have very
[2:10:29] Speaker 5: little time. I spent a lot a lot of my time.
[2:10:33] Speaker 5: I wasted some of my time whining and crying about
[2:10:37] Speaker 5: it about how little time I had. And then somebody
[2:10:42] Speaker 5: would say, you're taking up precious time whining and crying
[2:10:47] Speaker 5: instead of putting it on the page, And.
[2:10:49] Speaker 2: I quessed you.
[2:10:51] Speaker 1: That's what I tell my daughter when she's doing her homework.
[2:10:54] Speaker 1: She's just sitting there crying about the homework. I'm like,
[2:10:56] Speaker 1: you could just be doing it and be done with
[2:10:58] Speaker 1: it sooner.
[2:11:00] Speaker 5: But it doesn't work like that because I have to
[2:11:04] Speaker 5: sit with it, yeah, for a minute, and I watching
[2:11:10] Speaker 5: a blinking cursor or a cursor period doesn't help me,
[2:11:15] Speaker 5: and looking at my white page doesn't help me. I
[2:11:20] Speaker 5: got to pace around talk things through and wait for
[2:11:24] Speaker 5: the characters to start talking. Do you ever watch the
[2:11:28] Speaker 5: show anymore? Do you ever catch it? I never watched
[2:11:33] Speaker 5: the show.
[2:11:34] Speaker 2: I The problem for me was I made the sausage.
[2:11:40] Speaker 5: I don't want to eat it, and so I would
[2:11:44] Speaker 5: see many, many, many mini cuts, and.
[2:11:47] Speaker 2: So it's no longer enjoyable for me.
[2:11:50] Speaker 5: But I will say this, when you said you may
[2:11:53] Speaker 5: want to rewatch Cold and I actually watched it, it
[2:11:57] Speaker 5: was like.
[2:11:58] Speaker 2: Huh, I got a lot of my stuff.
[2:12:01] Speaker 5: I got a lot of stuff that I like, Like
[2:12:04] Speaker 5: the vdoc Society got show that like the crime the
[2:12:09] Speaker 5: sixty Machine put that in there, like it was the
[2:12:13] Speaker 5: only way to recreate the gun battle.
[2:12:17] Speaker 2: You also got Judge Petrowski, you know Joey. You got
[2:12:21] Speaker 2: Viola Davis and Judith Light. Yes, that's like a powerful form.
[2:12:27] Speaker 2: Who is my favorite? And she used to say to
[2:12:30] Speaker 2: me all the time when somebody would say Judy and
[2:12:34] Speaker 2: I turn my she goes, it's Judith and then she
[2:12:38] Speaker 2: looks at me like, it's Judith. Your mother named you
[2:12:41] Speaker 2: Judith and that's the name you should go by. And
[2:12:44] Speaker 2: I say, yes, ma'am so.
[2:12:47] Speaker 5: And from those days, you know, people would say, do
[2:12:51] Speaker 5: you like Judy or Judith? I said, I'll answer to both.
[2:12:54] Speaker 5: But for the most part, it's like it's my writing credit.
[2:12:59] Speaker 5: It's like, you know, it's just like your name is Judas.
[2:13:04] Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Judas. You gave us so much. Yeah, Judy,
[2:13:11] Speaker 2: I feel like I could talk to you for another
[2:13:13] Speaker 2: two hours, but we should probably let you go. Do
[2:13:16] Speaker 2: do you have anything I know you said you were
[2:13:18] Speaker 2: like in development on a bunch of stuff. Is there
[2:13:21] Speaker 2: anything that you want to like promote that you have
[2:13:24] Speaker 2: going on?
[2:13:25] Speaker 5: Or well, it's it where we haven't even got started yet.
[2:13:30] Speaker 5: But I'm pretty excited about collaborating with my daughter because, oh, I.
[2:13:36] Speaker 1: Was going to ask you about that, because you have
[2:13:37] Speaker 1: one daughter that's a TV writer also, right.
[2:13:40] Speaker 5: Yes, she's a TV writer. My oldest daughter is a
[2:13:44] Speaker 5: book agent. Yeah, and so I should probably look at
[2:13:49] Speaker 5: her list to see what's there. But my daughter, Pilar,
[2:13:55] Speaker 5: she goes by again, she goes by Carmen Pilar Golden.
[2:14:00] Speaker 5: But we all throughout her entire life, we've always called
[2:14:03] Speaker 5: her by her middle name.
[2:14:05] Speaker 2: And she was like, Mim, why did you do that?
[2:14:07] Speaker 5: And I was like, just because, But we're going to
[2:14:12] Speaker 5: go out with a project together, and I it kind
[2:14:16] Speaker 5: of feels strange and exciting.
[2:14:20] Speaker 2: It's like I.
[2:14:21] Speaker 5: Warned her about following me in this business, and I
[2:14:24] Speaker 5: told her not to do it, so she promptly disobeyed me.
[2:14:30] Speaker 5: But and she sold two pilots? Was it last year?
[2:14:35] Speaker 5: The year before she sold two pilots, And she was
[2:14:39] Speaker 5: show running an Amazon show called Beyond Black Beauty. And
[2:14:42] Speaker 5: then before that she was on a bunch of shows
[2:14:45] Speaker 5: like Godfriend and Me and she know wwaifeg oh, and
[2:14:48] Speaker 5: she did some other things.
[2:14:50] Speaker 2: But we're going to do this show.
[2:14:52] Speaker 5: We're going to tackle We're going to tackle internal affairs
[2:14:56] Speaker 5: because because I'm I'm, it feels like there's so much
[2:15:04] Speaker 5: corruption that it is like a river of material that
[2:15:09] Speaker 5: we can use. And what I didn't even know was
[2:15:13] Speaker 5: in a lot of internal affairs divisions there are people
[2:15:19] Speaker 5: working for them that you don't You don't even see
[2:15:24] Speaker 5: them in uniform. They are undercover all the time. Like
[2:15:29] Speaker 5: on the street, they are undercover all the time. They
[2:15:33] Speaker 5: don't they they never go into the internal affairs building.
[2:15:37] Speaker 5: No one knows who they are. But these people you
[2:15:42] Speaker 5: never ever see them, not in a police station. Never, never,
[2:15:46] Speaker 5: unless they've been arrested themselves. And it just doesn't have interesting.
[2:15:52] Speaker 2: Since your legend. Thank you so much. This is so interesting.
[2:15:55] Speaker 2: It gave us so much information. Thank you so much
[2:15:59] Speaker 2: for doing this. I mean, honestly, I have like ten
[2:16:01] Speaker 2: thousand more questions for you, but we have to let
[2:16:03] Speaker 2: you go live your life.
[2:16:05] Speaker 5: Yes, but I can always do another way. Oh yes,
[2:16:12] Speaker 5: I am open to answering all of your questions because
[2:16:17] Speaker 5: this was actually it took me.
[2:16:20] Speaker 2: Down memory lane and I realized I had a really
[2:16:23] Speaker 2: good time. Yeah, you know, I had a good time
[2:16:26] Speaker 2: when I lived it.
[2:16:27] Speaker 5: I and just thinking about it and remembering things have happened,
[2:16:34] Speaker 5: and gosh, what is his name?
[2:16:37] Speaker 2: I blank out? The actor from Prison Break?
[2:16:43] Speaker 3: Oh, Wentworth Miller.
[2:16:46] Speaker 5: His episode was fantastic and I'll tell you all about
[2:16:52] Speaker 5: it next.
[2:16:52] Speaker 2: Okay, all right, this is a good tease. This is
[2:16:55] Speaker 2: a good teez obsessed with her. She really she can't
[2:17:05] Speaker 2: lie and I like that. No, and she is. I
[2:17:09] Speaker 2: liked her vibe, like the I like knowing the annoying
[2:17:11] Speaker 2: stuff we don't know about that stuff like what do
[2:17:13] Speaker 2: you have to do with budget? What do you have
[2:17:15] Speaker 2: to do when you can't get a location? What do
[2:17:17] Speaker 2: you do when the creative isn't that you have to
[2:17:19] Speaker 2: get rid of a character? You have to do this?
[2:17:21] Speaker 2: Like I kind of lose sight that there are these
[2:17:24] Speaker 2: financial embossed things for these writers. I don't think about that.
[2:17:28] Speaker 1: I just like was like, what a badass, because like,
[2:17:31] Speaker 1: I don't know, I have been a writer.
[2:17:33] Speaker 3: I've been in rooms. I've been a writer with just
[2:17:35] Speaker 3: one other person.
[2:17:36] Speaker 1: I you know, but I like the room feeling of
[2:17:39] Speaker 1: being with a bunch of other people.
[2:17:40] Speaker 3: And She's like, no, that makes you weak. You got
[2:17:42] Speaker 3: to work alone, like she.
[2:17:44] Speaker 1: Because like a lot of the s you writers, they
[2:17:45] Speaker 1: kind of just like they get together, maybe discuss the season,
[2:17:48] Speaker 1: and then they just break off and do their own
[2:17:50] Speaker 1: shit for a long time, which is like kind of cool.
[2:17:53] Speaker 1: And like I think it's like why you can get
[2:17:56] Speaker 1: such a different feel for different episodes, right like even
[2:17:59] Speaker 1: though the episodes, yeah, like you know, it doesn't feel
[2:18:02] Speaker 1: like Friends, where most episodes feel like the same, like similar,
[2:18:05] Speaker 1: you know, Uh, you can get an episode where you're like, Wow,
[2:18:09] Speaker 1: this one's so different than which maybe that's like unique
[2:18:12] Speaker 1: to us because we're Litterali.
[2:18:15] Speaker 2: I think about like Helen Shaver and I'm like her
[2:18:17] Speaker 2: action scenes and the running and the bridges, like that
[2:18:21] Speaker 2: was more action than usual. Yeah, like there's definite and
[2:18:26] Speaker 2: with Judy it's like dark as fuck. But like being like, oh,
[2:18:28] Speaker 2: I couldn't film this. How do I make the burn
[2:18:31] Speaker 2: scene seem terrible? But you can't show it because we
[2:18:34] Speaker 2: don't have a budget, right, Like, I don't know. I
[2:18:37] Speaker 2: I'm like so impressed with her. I'm yeah, I'm obsessed,
[2:18:41] Speaker 2: just like Harbor.
[2:18:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm halfway through. I was like, this is gonna
[2:18:44] Speaker 1: be an ask. We're gonna have to do any o
[2:18:46] Speaker 1: bear with her. We're gonna just have to have her
[2:18:47] Speaker 1: come back another time. I feel like we have like
[2:18:49] Speaker 1: more to get out of her. She's really cool. We
[2:18:54] Speaker 1: love Judy post mortem for this episode.
[2:18:58] Speaker 2: I love the vidoc society ego is the killer of
[2:19:02] Speaker 2: anything productive in terms of any profession, creative or police
[2:19:06] Speaker 2: or anything like being territorial, not wanting information, not looking
[2:19:11] Speaker 2: at stuff. Yeah, I mean it's weird. It's disgusting.
[2:19:14] Speaker 1: Like Chester Lake, honestly, if he had I know, we
[2:19:18] Speaker 1: had to get him off the show, Like I know
[2:19:19] Speaker 1: what the behind the scenes are, but in terms of
[2:19:21] Speaker 1: the character, if he had like gone to the other
[2:19:24] Speaker 1: people in his unit, like they would have helped him.
[2:19:27] Speaker 2: We could have gotten these guys the right way.
[2:19:28] Speaker 1: You wouldn't have had to murder anyone probably, like you
[2:19:31] Speaker 1: wouldn't be in a shootout like and we could have
[2:19:35] Speaker 1: I mean, who knows for sure. There obviously wasn't enough evidence,
[2:19:39] Speaker 1: but Chester just kind of wanted to like do it
[2:19:42] Speaker 1: on his own, you know, like the ego of it,
[2:19:44] Speaker 1: like like these guys that want their own win or yeah,
[2:19:48] Speaker 1: he's you know, ll to prison. I don't really feel
[2:19:51] Speaker 1: like Casey does that, but you know, I kind of
[2:19:53] Speaker 1: feel like this was a weird end for cases. But
[2:19:55] Speaker 1: we do know she comes back after this anyway, So
[2:19:58] Speaker 1: I think he met our casey and I was like, yeah, okay, yeah,
[2:20:01] Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't see him doing a shootout.
[2:20:03] Speaker 1: But you meant case you no back of course yea.
[2:20:07] Speaker 2: I also, the real crimes are so upsetting, and they
[2:20:09] Speaker 2: actually haunted me for this whole week or so that
[2:20:13] Speaker 2: after we talked about it. I really am upset. I'm
[2:20:16] Speaker 2: upset that the guy got to go home for Christmas.
[2:20:18] Speaker 2: I'm upset that like tying up two teenage girls and
[2:20:22] Speaker 2: raping them as they stand with nooses on their net
[2:20:24] Speaker 2: got him six months. Like it's you know, it's again
[2:20:28] Speaker 2: with the people that are making the laws or the predators,
[2:20:30] Speaker 2: and then they gaslate us into thinking that they're not
[2:20:32] Speaker 2: all guilty. When you are allowing, you're giving the environment,
[2:20:36] Speaker 2: you're giving the environment to allow this.
[2:20:38] Speaker 1: I was just rereading one of our cases that we covered,
[2:20:42] Speaker 1: remember the boy that got kidnapped and then it turned
[2:20:45] Speaker 1: into a TV movie and everything, and he was being
[2:20:48] Speaker 1: held for seven years by this pedophile. I was just
[2:20:50] Speaker 1: rereading that that guy got five years in jail.
[2:20:53] Speaker 2: Well, even the Giselle Pellicoe case, the husband only got
[2:20:57] Speaker 2: the rapist got twenty and it's like, because that's the max,
[2:21:02] Speaker 2: and it's like he drugged his wife and let people
[2:21:06] Speaker 2: gang rape her for decades. What.
[2:21:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, it should be at least the amount of time
[2:21:11] Speaker 1: they were doing their crime.
[2:21:12] Speaker 2: He shouldn't be like that's not that's danger to society. Yeah. Yeah,
[2:21:17] Speaker 2: I'm sad for these girls. I'm sad that police and
[2:21:23] Speaker 2: the justice system fails us time and time again. Yeah,
[2:21:27] Speaker 2: I think it's not the seventies anymore.
[2:21:30] Speaker 1: I took my kids to Lunar New Year in Chinatown
[2:21:33] Speaker 1: this weekend and like the beginning of the parade was
[2:21:36] Speaker 1: just the cops driving up and down the street on
[2:21:39] Speaker 1: motorcycles for a while, and people were just videotaping it,
[2:21:42] Speaker 1: and I was like, what's happening here? Like why do
[2:21:47] Speaker 1: we care about this? Like is this what's going on?
[2:21:51] Speaker 1: But I mean, I appreciate law enforcement to an extent.
[2:21:55] Speaker 1: I'm obviously calling the cops if I get in trouble,
[2:21:57] Speaker 1: but I just was like, why am I watching like
[2:21:59] Speaker 1: fifty guys on motorcycles go up and then come back,
[2:22:02] Speaker 1: and then go up and then come back, Like and
[2:22:04] Speaker 1: why does any imagine.
[2:22:05] Speaker 2: Trate you if they just did a little drag. They
[2:22:08] Speaker 2: wouldn't have to do that. They wouldn't use our tax
[2:22:10] Speaker 2: fucking dollars. Yeah, yeah, yeah, do motorcades. I don't know.
[2:22:15] Speaker 2: I love the vidoc Society. I like people being so
[2:22:18] Speaker 2: passionate that on their off time they still do their stuff.
[2:22:22] Speaker 3: Yeah, let's get to what would Sister Peg do.
[2:22:25] Speaker 1: This is our weekly segment where we direct you to
[2:22:27] Speaker 1: an organization, an article, a documentary, something to give you
[2:22:30] Speaker 1: more info about what we talked about today. And we
[2:22:32] Speaker 1: wanted to point you to the VDOC Society today. As
[2:22:34] Speaker 1: Liza has said, they for more than thirty years, the
[2:22:37] Speaker 1: VDOX Society has provided pro bono expert assistants to law
[2:22:41] Speaker 1: enforcement agencies working on cold case homicides. For more information
[2:22:46] Speaker 1: or to donate, you can head over to vdoc which
[2:22:49] Speaker 1: is v idocq dot org and that will be in
[2:22:53] Speaker 1: our show notes and posted in a link.
[2:22:57] Speaker 2: Uh.
[2:22:57] Speaker 1: A link will be posted on our stories to day
[2:22:59] Speaker 1: this episode comes out, and we save all those stories
[2:23:01] Speaker 1: in our WWSPD highlights on our Instagram page, which is
[2:23:04] Speaker 1: That's Messed Up Pod.
[2:23:06] Speaker 2: Hell yeah, And next week we will be doing Sophomore
[2:23:08] Speaker 2: Jinks from season one episode six. Yeah, We're going all
[2:23:12] Speaker 2: the way back season one. Baby. Thank you guys so
[2:23:16] Speaker 2: much for listening.
[2:23:18] Speaker 1: As always, we love you, See you next week.
[2:23:30] Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.
[2:23:32] Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
[2:23:34] Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
[2:23:37] Speaker 1: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to
[2:23:40] Speaker 1: That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
[2:23:43] Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.
[2:23:45] Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod,
[2:23:48] Speaker 2: and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at Glitter Cheese.
[2:23:52] Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
[2:23:55] Speaker 1: more information.
[2:23:56] Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
[2:23:59] Speaker 2: and our so see It producer Christina Chamberlain, and to.
[2:24:02] Speaker 1: Our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner,
[2:24:05] Speaker 1: and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly
[2:24:08] Speaker 1: Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive
[2:24:11] Speaker 1: producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at
[2:24:16] Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media.
[2:24:17] Speaker 2: Dun Dun

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