# Makelle Bistline, Part 2 - Becoming Sam Bateman’s Wife, Keeping Secrets from a “Prophet,” and Helping the FBI Take Him Down

An episode of [Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1534370789), 28 Oct 2026, 54 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/f804eed6-dd2f-4bf9-ba37-b2de011a8b27/dba767cb-e68d-4c8d-9551-b4ef0151c854/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=462fb424-93c4-4e4b-8e00-b2de011a8b44

This week is part two with Makelle Bistline, one of polygamist cult leader Sam Bateman’s former wives who helped take him down from the inside. She returns to share how she finally relented and became Bateman’s 22nd wife after he wore down her resistance with pressure and isolation, how Bateman systematically married all the women and girls in her family, and when she began to notice Sam's troubling behavior with the underage girls. Makelle explains how she began secretly collaborating with Dr. Christine Marie (Lola’s mom) to collect evidence for the authorities, and what it was like living through the FBI raid that changed everything. She also discusses how her friendship with Nomz Bistline has evolved through this experience, why she chose not to appear in the Netflix documentary Trust Me: The False Prophet, and how she's doing now. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Trust me.
[0:02] Speaker 2: Do you trust me?
[0:04] Speaker 1: Would I ever lead you astray?
[0:05] Speaker 2: Trust me.
[0:06] Speaker 3: This is the truth.
[0:08] Speaker 1: The only truth. If anybody ever tells you to just
[0:11] Speaker 1: trust them.
[0:11] Speaker 4: Don't!
[0:13] Speaker 1: Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief,
[0:17] Speaker 1: and manipulation from two bad wives who've actually experienced it.
[0:21] Speaker 1: I am Lola Blanc, of course. And I am not
[0:25] Speaker 1: of course, but of course, Megan Elizabeth.
[0:28] Speaker 3: Hello.
[0:29] Speaker 1: Today is, of course, part two with Mikkel Beislein, one
[0:34] Speaker 1: of polygamous cult leader Sam Bateman's former wives, who helped
[0:38] Speaker 1: take him down from the inside. And this week, she's
[0:41] Speaker 1: going to tell us about how she finally relented and
[0:43] Speaker 1: became one of his wives after being pressured and isolated
[0:46] Speaker 1: from her community, how all the women and girls in
[0:49] Speaker 1: her family were also married to him, and the things
[0:52] Speaker 1: she started to notice about what was going on with
[0:54] Speaker 1: the underage girls.
[0:56] Speaker 4: She'll tell us about how she began secretly communicating with
[0:59] Speaker 4: Lola's mom and another one of the wives, Julia, what
[1:03] Speaker 4: she started sharing with authorities and what it was like
[1:06] Speaker 4: living through the FBI raid and knowing it was going
[1:09] Speaker 4: to happen. plus how her friendship with gnomes has changed
[1:12] Speaker 4: over the years and how she's doing now.
[1:15] Speaker 1: Including her music. Okay, much to talk about with Mikkel.
[1:20] Speaker 1: Reminder to folks that this is all about the same
[1:24] Speaker 1: story that you see in the Trust Me docuseries on Netflix.
[1:28] Speaker 1: Mikkel's story just was not a part of that, and
[1:30] Speaker 1: I'm so glad we are sharing it with all of
[1:33] Speaker 1: you now.
[1:34] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[1:34] Speaker 5: Absolutely.
[1:36] Speaker 1: So before we jump back in, can Megan please tell
[1:40] Speaker 1: me her coldiest thing of this week?
[1:42] Speaker 4: Yeah, so formal. She can. This is from the New
[1:49] Speaker 4: York Post. Not my favorite source, but whatever. Reputable sources here.
[1:54] Speaker 4: They're the ones, it's everywhere, but they're the ones that
[1:57] Speaker 4: have the longest story with the most information. This is
[2:00] Speaker 4: an article by Natalie O'Neill. It's called Parents Panic. after
[2:06] Speaker 4: teen son vanishes from home, and they find out he
[2:11] Speaker 4: spent $ 7, 000 at Clavicular's Camp Luxmax.
[2:17] Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness.
[2:18] Speaker 4: So, for those of us lucky enough not to know
[2:21] Speaker 4: who Clavicular is, he is a social media star who
[2:27] Speaker 4: is rumored to be sponsored by Peter Thiel, and he
[2:32] Speaker 4: is looks maxing, getting a ton of plastic surgery, going
[2:37] Speaker 4: out and being a burden to society. And now he's
[2:42] Speaker 4: charging other young men $ 7, 000 to come spend time with him.
[2:49] Speaker 4: We have spoken on here about the bone mashing technique
[2:52] Speaker 4: that they use where you like hit your jaw with
[2:55] Speaker 4: a hammer to try to make it have a more
[2:58] Speaker 4: defined shape.
[2:59] Speaker 5: This kid who disappeared to the $ 7, 000 looks maxing camp.
[3:04] Speaker 4: Told his parents he now wants a major $ 40, 000 surgery.
[3:09] Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
[3:10] Speaker 4: That's what the looks max in camp. They, like, judge
[3:14] Speaker 4: each other and tell each other what they need. So,
[3:16] Speaker 4: he's come away with a $ 40, 000 dream. And it's pretty
[3:22] Speaker 4: interesting to watch culture shift and how some people are
[3:28] Speaker 4: really leaning into the grift.
[3:30] Speaker 3: Okay.
[3:30] Speaker 1: Hold on.
[3:31] Speaker 4: So.
[3:32] Speaker 1: Clavicular is currently facing rape charges.
[3:35] Speaker 3: Yes.
[3:36] Speaker 1: He's fighting it. He hasn't been found guilty, but he
[3:38] Speaker 1: has been charged with rape. Was this happening? Like, are
[3:43] Speaker 1: his retreats going on amidst this, like, court case?
[3:49] Speaker 5: I believe so. Wow.
[3:51] Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the big takeaways that this
[3:57] Speaker 4: kid had, he says, my perspective on approaching women... has
[4:02] Speaker 4: totally changed after going to the camp. Now, this is quotes.
[4:06] Speaker 4: You go see a hot chick. Go try to hit
[4:08] Speaker 4: on her. Like, it doesn't matter, he said. You just
[4:13] Speaker 4: got to go out, talk to people, make connections. You know,
[4:18] Speaker 4: you see people you think are cool. Just go say anything.
[4:22] Speaker 4: Go say hi. And it's like, you just paid $ 7, 000
[4:24] Speaker 4: for like.
[4:27] Speaker 1: Like a basic, just a one-on-one lesson of like.
[4:31] Speaker 5: Normal idea of human interaction.
[4:33] Speaker 4: But I guess it makes sense because this generation is
[4:37] Speaker 4: so removed from normal human interaction that it's like before
[4:43] Speaker 4: you can even go talk to somebody, you need to
[4:46] Speaker 4: do $ 40, 000 worth of shit to your perfectly fine face.
[4:50] Speaker 4: You know, it's just a little bit scary. It's a
[4:52] Speaker 4: little bit dystopian. It's a little bit culty.
[4:55] Speaker 3: Yeah, we are.
[4:56] Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked about it so many times. We're
[4:59] Speaker 1: in such a bleak time for young men right now.
[5:03] Speaker 1: And I feel, I hope more role models arise who
[5:08] Speaker 1: are just like a little more normal, just like a
[5:11] Speaker 1: tiny bit more normal.
[5:12] Speaker 4: That'd be great because a bleak time for young men
[5:16] Speaker 4: means a Deadly time for young women. Yes.
[5:20] Speaker 5: And the world.
[5:21] Speaker 1: For all things.
[5:23] Speaker 5: That's real. For all things. Yeah.
[5:27] Speaker 4: Okay.
[5:28] Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad he's okay. I hope he doesn't spend
[5:33] Speaker 1: $ 40, 000 in surgery. Listen, people get surgery all the time.
[5:38] Speaker 1: I support people doing what feels good for them. I
[5:40] Speaker 1: feel like when you are that young, that is maybe
[5:42] Speaker 1: not the time to be making those decisions anymore. about
[5:46] Speaker 1: your permanent face.
[5:47] Speaker 5: He's 19 years old.
[5:49] Speaker 3: Okay.
[5:50] Speaker 4: Seems a little bit like your face hasn't formed yet.
[5:53] Speaker 1: Yeah, just give it a little time, buddy. Also, personality
[5:58] Speaker 1: goes a long way with women, I'll tell you.
[5:59] Speaker 5: It really does.
[6:01] Speaker 4: Which brings us to what I think your cultiest thing
[6:04] Speaker 4: of the week is and my dream man, Nathan Fielder.
[6:08] Speaker 1: My dream man, Megan. Nathan Fielder date us.
[6:14] Speaker 5: What's your cultiest thing of the.
[6:15] Speaker 3: Week, Lola?
[6:17] Speaker 1: Of course, it's the movie You Can See Everything. Directed
[6:22] Speaker 1: by Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim. And it is a
[6:25] Speaker 1: documentary that blurs the lines of reality as Nathan Fielder's
[6:29] Speaker 1: want to do about Elizabeth Holmes. Founder of failed tech startup,
[6:36] Speaker 1: not failed, grift tech startup, Theranos. And we're not going
[6:41] Speaker 1: to spoil anything, so nobody panic. But we are going
[6:45] Speaker 1: to talk about these just sort of basic premise of
[6:47] Speaker 1: the film, which is that he spends time with Elizabeth
[6:50] Speaker 1: Holmes and asks the question of whether she believes the
[6:54] Speaker 1: stuff that she has put forth and been dishonest about
[6:58] Speaker 1: on record, objectively, you know, as proven in court. I
[7:03] Speaker 1: know you had some strong takeaways after watching it.
[7:05] Speaker 4: I mean... Again, we don't want to spoil anything. My
[7:09] Speaker 4: strongest takeaway is go see it. I'm going to see
[7:11] Speaker 4: it for the second time tomorrow. And it couldn't be
[7:16] Speaker 4: soon enough. But what really has stuck with me is
[7:20] Speaker 4: how after the film, you really can't stop thinking about it.
[7:24] Speaker 4: And I've been looking at a lot of people online
[7:27] Speaker 4: speaking about just how much it's kind of melted their
[7:31] Speaker 4: cognitive dissonance a little bit. And confused them in a
[7:35] Speaker 4: way that they were surprised by. And a lot of people,
[7:39] Speaker 4: I don't think, expected to.
[7:44] Speaker 5: Have that reaction.
[7:45] Speaker 4: And it's kind of a premise of this podcast is
[7:47] Speaker 4: that nobody is ever completely protected from cognitive dissonance to
[7:54] Speaker 4: a degree where you're like, whoa.
[7:57] Speaker 5: And I think that's important.
[7:59] Speaker 4: And I felt like the discourse online was very like, wow,
[8:03] Speaker 4: I can kind of understand how people end up in
[8:08] Speaker 4: different situations more.
[8:09] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[8:10] Speaker 5: It seemed like people were having more empathy for others.
[8:14] Speaker 1: That's interesting. That's interesting. It's so hard to talk about
[8:17] Speaker 1: without spoiling anything. I just want to say, if you
[8:20] Speaker 1: haven't seen it, lower your expectations because it is a
[8:23] Speaker 1: really good movie, but people like kind of ruined it
[8:25] Speaker 1: for me with how much hype there was around it.
[8:27] Speaker 1: It's a good movie. It's a good movie. But it
[8:29] Speaker 1: was like way overhyped. I thought there was going to
[8:31] Speaker 1: be some crazy. It's like, it's good.
[8:34] Speaker 3: But, you know.
[8:35] Speaker 5: It's not gonna change your life necessarily. Nathan, did you
[8:37] Speaker 5: hear that? She's not the.
[8:38] Speaker 1: Wait, no, no. I'm your biggest fan.
[8:40] Speaker 5: Pick me.
[8:44] Speaker 4: No, I have been obsessively watching Nathan since Nathan For
[8:48] Speaker 4: You came out and The Claw of Shame first hit
[8:50] Speaker 4: my eyes and.
[8:52] Speaker 1: Okay, you're a bigger fan. You deserve him.
[8:54] Speaker 5: So I was like, whatever. It'll be Nathan. It'll be crazy.
[8:58] Speaker 5: I was shocked beyond belief at how good it was. So.
[9:02] Speaker 1: I was not. I was not. I know. That's interesting.
[9:05] Speaker 5: Okay.
[9:06] Speaker 1: Here is what I will say. It asks questions that
[9:10] Speaker 1: we do ask a lot on this show about somebody's
[9:14] Speaker 1: true self and their true intent and what they believe
[9:18] Speaker 1: and what they don't believe. And, you know, the conclusion
[9:20] Speaker 1: that we come to often here is that they probably
[9:24] Speaker 1: believe some of it. And in many cases, maybe they
[9:28] Speaker 1: even believe all of it and some people believe none
[9:30] Speaker 1: of it. And the truth is there's just no way
[9:33] Speaker 1: to really get that answer. And I think part of
[9:37] Speaker 1: why it maybe didn't resonate as hard with me as
[9:40] Speaker 1: it did with some other folks is because I feel
[9:42] Speaker 1: like I have asked this question, like tried to figure
[9:45] Speaker 1: this out about so many cult leaders and it's unanswerable.
[9:48] Speaker 1: It's just unanswerable.
[9:50] Speaker 4: However, Lola, everybody leaves the theater feeling like they have
[9:55] Speaker 4: an answer.
[9:56] Speaker 5: I didn't.
[9:57] Speaker 1: I didn't. I was like, I could... evidence in both directions.
[10:02] Speaker 4: And some people feel like they've figured it all out.
[10:06] Speaker 4: And in a couple weeks, when everybody's had a chance
[10:09] Speaker 4: to see it, we'll have to... God, can we have
[10:12] Speaker 4: Nathan on?
[10:13] Speaker 5: Oh, my God.
[10:13] Speaker 1: Nathan, come on.
[10:16] Speaker 5: I once saw him at Coffee Bean in like 2011.
[10:19] Speaker 4: And I was like, I tried to just be like,
[10:22] Speaker 4: I like you for work.
[10:26] Speaker 5: He's so brilliant. Anyway. Oh, another culty thing that was
[10:31] Speaker 5: fun about.
[10:31] Speaker 4: It is people are so like, I see all these
[10:34] Speaker 4: people on threads being like, I'm having withdrawal.
[10:37] Speaker 5: From the 200 people I saw it with in the theater.
[10:41] Speaker 4: I feel so like, bonded with them like we've gone
[10:44] Speaker 4: through the craziest experience together. And I'm like, you're in
[10:48] Speaker 4: a cult with the people you just happen to be
[10:50] Speaker 4: in the theater with.
[10:50] Speaker 1: That's so funny. Yeah, it's funny. Definitely worth the three hours,
[10:54] Speaker 1: I will say. Worth the three hours.
[10:55] Speaker 5: Absolutely.
[10:56] Speaker 4: Do not pee. There is no good spot to pee,
[10:59] Speaker 4: no matter what the memes say.
[11:00] Speaker 1: I found a good spot to pee, but it was
[11:03] Speaker 1: like more towards the beginning.
[11:04] Speaker 5: Okay.
[11:05] Speaker 1: That was like the end of first hour.
[11:08] Speaker 5: Pee or pants.
[11:10] Speaker 4: Anyway.
[11:10] Speaker 1: The point is we want Nathan Fielder to come on
[11:12] Speaker 1: this podcast, even though I did just say it wasn't
[11:15] Speaker 1: my favorite movie I've ever seen documentary-wise. Still very good.
[11:20] Speaker 5: Very good.
[11:21] Speaker 1: Speaking of people engaging in deception and potentially self-deception. Sam
[11:28] Speaker 1: Bateman is, of course, who I'm referring to. Should we
[11:33] Speaker 1: talk to Mikkel about her experiences?
[11:35] Speaker 5: I can't wait. Let's do it.
[11:49] Speaker 1: It sounds like the process of Coercing these women and
[11:53] Speaker 1: girls into marrying him was very abusive, generally. The process
[11:56] Speaker 1: involved a lot of coercion, some physical abuse. So it's
[12:00] Speaker 1: not like everyone was like, yay, let's marry my dream man. No.
[12:06] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[12:06] Speaker 4: And just these are people who don't know anything about sex.
[12:11] Speaker 1: Yes.
[12:11] Speaker 4: I'm putting myself in that situation. And if I even
[12:15] Speaker 4: see something like that, now that person's my husband.
[12:18] Speaker 1: Because you have no experience with anyone else. And that's
[12:21] Speaker 1: kind of the rules.
[12:23] Speaker 2: Yes.
[12:23] Speaker 1: Plural marriage in a lot of these communities, like, is
[12:27] Speaker 1: there a marriage ceremony or is it just like, we're
[12:30] Speaker 1: married now?
[12:31] Speaker 3: There usually is a marriage ceremony, but with Sam, there
[12:35] Speaker 3: was nothing. There was no marriage ceremony at all. He
[12:38] Speaker 3: did get us wedding rings later, but there was no
[12:43] Speaker 3: day that signified this is this is the day that
[12:47] Speaker 3: you got married. You kind of had to guess.
[12:50] Speaker 4: Right.
[12:50] Speaker 1: Well, in a way, it's good that you don't have
[12:52] Speaker 1: a date haunting you of your marriage to Sam.
[12:57] Speaker 3: I actually do.
[12:58] Speaker 4: You do?
[12:59] Speaker 3: Fuck.
[12:59] Speaker 1: I take it back.
[13:02] Speaker 3: Yeah, because I held out for a really long time.
[13:05] Speaker 3: So when it happened, there was a very solid day,
[13:09] Speaker 3: and it came with a lot of fighting because he
[13:11] Speaker 3: was very upset about waiting.
[13:13] Speaker 1: So when you went away, I have to imagine that
[13:15] Speaker 1: because of how isolating that would feel, you don't have
[13:18] Speaker 1: your family there. I mean, you have your family members
[13:21] Speaker 1: you're staying with, but it's not your main community.
[13:23] Speaker 4: Yeah, you used to have 27 brothers and sisters playing outside.
[13:27] Speaker 4: Having all the fun in the world and now you're
[13:29] Speaker 4: by yourself in a strange new world, completely, I would assume.
[13:34] Speaker 3: Alone, yes.
[13:35] Speaker 5: Scared.
[13:36] Speaker 1: Yeah. So does that prime you to be more open,
[13:40] Speaker 1: I guess, to the prospect of having a path to
[13:43] Speaker 1: come back to the community through marriage? Like, was that
[13:45] Speaker 1: part of it?
[13:46] Speaker 3: It was part of it, but I was so back
[13:48] Speaker 3: and forth that there was no decision that I was
[13:51] Speaker 3: progressing toward. I would fight. in my mind against myself,
[13:55] Speaker 3: like all day, every day. I even have conversations that
[13:58] Speaker 3: I wrote out on paper where like, you should marry him. No,
[14:01] Speaker 3: you don't want to. Oh, but just get it over with. Oh,
[14:03] Speaker 3: but you know, you're going to have to. Like, I
[14:05] Speaker 3: still have that. It was never ending, just turmoil because
[14:09] Speaker 3: I felt like I had to make a decision. It
[14:12] Speaker 3: did get better when Christine reached out to me because
[14:15] Speaker 3: I had one friend and someone who I could talk
[14:18] Speaker 3: about this with. And it's I don't know where she
[14:20] Speaker 3: got my number, but she just texted me like a
[14:22] Speaker 3: couple of days into me being gone. And she was
[14:25] Speaker 3: so careful about how she asked, but she was like,
[14:28] Speaker 3: do you want to go to lunch? Like, do you
[14:29] Speaker 3: want to talk about this? And she's like, just so
[14:31] Speaker 3: you know, I will never, I won't tell Sam. So
[14:35] Speaker 3: that was a huge relief. And we became, we became friends.
[14:38] Speaker 5: When you disappeared to go live with your extended family.
[14:41] Speaker 4: Is that what you mean when you went there?
[14:43] Speaker 5: Do you mean once you came back and got married?
[14:47] Speaker 3: No, no. Once I disappeared. I only lived with those people,
[14:51] Speaker 3: the extended family, for just a couple weeks. And then
[14:54] Speaker 3: I ended up renting a house with my niece. Okay. Yeah,
[14:58] Speaker 3: very close to where I worked.
[14:59] Speaker 1: Did you know my mom already or was it just
[15:01] Speaker 1: a random stranger?
[15:01] Speaker 3: No, I knew her because she knew Sam. We'd go
[15:04] Speaker 3: over to her house and I don't know what agenda
[15:07] Speaker 3: he had with her at that point, but for some
[15:09] Speaker 3: reason he felt the need to show us off.
[15:12] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[15:13] Speaker 3: And Christine was a little neutral in that she wouldn't
[15:16] Speaker 3: run and tell the apostates or tell the FLDS and
[15:19] Speaker 3: just be super hateful. So he felt like he could
[15:23] Speaker 3: show us to her.
[15:24] Speaker 1: Right. So crazy.
[15:27] Speaker 4: Okay.
[15:28] Speaker 1: So having a person to like talk to, so you're
[15:31] Speaker 1: not like in complete isolation was helpful. Can you talk
[15:35] Speaker 1: about what led you back?
[15:36] Speaker 3: Yeah. So my job, it was at a dairy farm
[15:40] Speaker 3: and I did have other friends out there. Like I
[15:41] Speaker 3: made friends. We ended up living together. Like I'm still
[15:45] Speaker 3: friends with them. But there was one friend who was
[15:48] Speaker 3: a bit older than me, and she ended up getting
[15:52] Speaker 3: raped by someone at my work, my job. And it
[15:55] Speaker 3: was very violent. She was very sick for a long
[16:02] Speaker 3: time after. So it scared me. And because I was
[16:05] Speaker 3: fighting so much in my mind, it was kind of
[16:09] Speaker 3: the thing that tipped the scales in the go-home direction. Right.
[16:13] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's scary out here. People are crazy.
[16:17] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[16:18] Speaker 3: And Sam had warned me that that would happen. He
[16:20] Speaker 3: was like, if you leave, you will, in his words,
[16:23] Speaker 3: you will lose your virginity and be damned.
[16:26] Speaker 4: So he's kind of, in your mind, he's kind of
[16:29] Speaker 4: prophesying the future because that is what's happening to people.
[16:32] Speaker 3: Yes. And then it happened. And he was right. So
[16:36] Speaker 3: I'm like, well, I guess I'm just going to have
[16:38] Speaker 3: to go in this direction because both directions are hard. Yes.
[16:40] Speaker 1: Yeah. So once you get back, like, what was that?
[16:45] Speaker 1: period like? How did that feel?
[16:47] Speaker 3: It was a lot different than when I left. There
[16:50] Speaker 3: were a couple of more pregnancies just when I walked
[16:54] Speaker 3: in the door that were happening. And it was crazy
[16:58] Speaker 3: because people that had been Moroni's wives were now Sam's
[17:01] Speaker 3: wives and were pregnant with Sam's babies. And it kind
[17:04] Speaker 3: of messed with my head a little bit. I tried
[17:06] Speaker 3: not to freak out too much about that. Just the
[17:09] Speaker 3: way they were passing around women.
[17:11] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[17:11] Speaker 3: He was much more accepted. Whereas before, Moroni was kind
[17:16] Speaker 3: of had his charge of the house, a part of
[17:18] Speaker 3: the house, and Sam was upstairs with all his wives.
[17:21] Speaker 3: Now the whole house was Sam's.
[17:23] Speaker 1: Wow.
[17:24] Speaker 3: And everything revolved around him. Anybody that hadn't been married
[17:28] Speaker 3: to him before were now married to him, except for
[17:31] Speaker 3: a few. So my mom wasn't yet, but one of
[17:35] Speaker 3: my moms were. All three of them eventually went to
[17:37] Speaker 3: him But it was gradually happening.
[17:40] Speaker 4: What?
[17:40] Speaker 1: All your moms and all your sisters are all married
[17:44] Speaker 1: to the same man eventually.
[17:45] Speaker 3: Yeah, I had no support system.
[17:49] Speaker 5: Okay, wait, because we forgot an important detail.
[17:51] Speaker 4: Your father, I think, was sent away because they were
[17:56] Speaker 4: sending all of the men to go basically to disappear.
[18:00] Speaker 3: Yes, yes. He was sent away when I was four
[18:03] Speaker 3: years old. So I've never really known him. And they
[18:05] Speaker 3: assigned a caretaker to me, which was my older brother, Ludd,
[18:09] Speaker 3: or Liddell. And he is the one who got converted
[18:13] Speaker 3: fully to Sam and dragged us all along with him.
[18:16] Speaker 4: Okay. And they did this with the fathers because it
[18:20] Speaker 4: would be less competition for men to get rid of
[18:23] Speaker 4: other men?
[18:24] Speaker 1: To get the wives.
[18:25] Speaker 3: Yes. As far as the send away thing. Yes.
[18:27] Speaker 4: Yes.
[18:27] Speaker 3: That was definitely. Because to this day, I still don't
[18:30] Speaker 3: know what my dad did. Oh, man. To lose his family.
[18:33] Speaker 1: Probably nothing. I mean, I feel like most of the
[18:36] Speaker 1: stories we hear about men getting sent away, it's like,
[18:39] Speaker 1: it's some stupid bullshit, you know? It's like they didn't
[18:41] Speaker 1: buy the right thing or they listened to a song
[18:44] Speaker 1: or something.
[18:45] Speaker 3: Or Warren Jeffs had a dream that they turned traitor, so.
[18:48] Speaker 1: Right, because he wanted to marry their wives.
[18:50] Speaker 3: Right.
[18:50] Speaker 1: Wow, I wish I could just tell someone I had
[18:52] Speaker 1: a dream and then just.
[18:53] Speaker 3: Do whatever I want. You can. You can.
[18:55] Speaker 1: You can.
[19:08] Speaker 5: What was the day you finally said, you're my husband?
[19:11] Speaker 3: It was November 13th of 2022. Oh, you do.
[19:16] Speaker 1: Have the date.
[19:16] Speaker 3: Yeah, because every time it's November 13th, I'm like, oh
[19:22] Speaker 3: my God. And it's sad because November 13th, it's such
[19:26] Speaker 3: a cold date to me.
[19:27] Speaker 5: Now it's very winter.
[19:30] Speaker 1: No, I think the 12th is way better.
[19:31] Speaker 5: Okay, great.
[19:34] Speaker 3: He took me home from the outside world back to
[19:38] Speaker 3: his house on November 6th. And everyone kind of assumed
[19:42] Speaker 3: that I was a wife now. And I kind of thought,
[19:45] Speaker 3: maybe I am. I don't know. And then everyone started
[19:49] Speaker 3: automatically calling me Mother Mikkel. It was so weird.
[19:52] Speaker 5: And that means your wife?
[19:53] Speaker 4: Yes.
[19:54] Speaker 5: Mother Mikkel wife.
[19:55] Speaker 1: As opposed to like Sister Mikkel?
[19:59] Speaker 3: Before, it's just Mikkel.
[20:00] Speaker 1: It's just Mikkel.
[20:01] Speaker 3: Okay.
[20:02] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[20:02] Speaker 3: Once you get married, you have, it's like a title
[20:05] Speaker 3: of respect in a way where it's like mother so-and-so. Oh, okay.
[20:09] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[20:10] Speaker 1: Oh, that must have been weird.
[20:11] Speaker 3: It was so weird. But I had a hard time
[20:14] Speaker 3: adapting to their life because they were all so on
[20:19] Speaker 3: board with being at his every whim. They were right there.
[20:25] Speaker 3: They would do anything he wanted. They were all so
[20:27] Speaker 3: excited to get anything that he said. They would cling
[20:31] Speaker 3: on to his words. I was having a hard time
[20:33] Speaker 3: just jumping into that. I couldn't do that. So I
[20:37] Speaker 3: would keep my distance. I would try to do things
[20:40] Speaker 3: that wouldn't get me in trouble, like the dishes or
[20:43] Speaker 3: cleaning the kitchen, just stay out of the way. But
[20:46] Speaker 3: later I learned that he did have a problem with
[20:49] Speaker 3: me keeping my distance. I didn't know what else to do.
[20:52] Speaker 3: I didn't, I wasn't super excited about being close to him.
[20:55] Speaker 3: I wasn't attracted to him.
[20:57] Speaker 1: How long was this period before you started conspiring with
[21:01] Speaker 1: my mom? How long was this like just marriage period?
[21:05] Speaker 3: It didn't really exist. I was over at your mom's
[21:07] Speaker 3: house within days of going back.
[21:10] Speaker 4: Oh, really?
[21:10] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[21:11] Speaker 3: So I snuck out maybe at like six or seven
[21:15] Speaker 3: in the morning, went over to your mom's house, just
[21:18] Speaker 3: knocked on the door and.
[21:19] Speaker 4: Was like, hi.
[21:20] Speaker 3: And she's like, get in, get in. What are you doing?
[21:22] Speaker 3: And I'm like, I just wanted you to know that
[21:24] Speaker 3: I'm here. I'm okay. I'm one of his wives now,
[21:27] Speaker 3: but we're still friends, right? And she's like, can we
[21:31] Speaker 3: still talk?
[21:32] Speaker 4: And I'm like, yeah.
[21:33] Speaker 3: She's like, can we still talk about Sam and what
[21:35] Speaker 3: you're struggling with? And I was like, yeah, as long
[21:38] Speaker 3: as you don't tell him. So that was kind of
[21:40] Speaker 3: the start of that.
[21:41] Speaker 4: Wow.
[21:42] Speaker 1: Did you have guilt about talking to her?
[21:44] Speaker 2: No, because Sam talked to her. And so why can't I?
[21:52] Speaker 3: It got more intense later when we started to notice
[21:56] Speaker 3: obvious crimes. And then we had to report them. And
[21:59] Speaker 3: then she was going to the police. And I knew
[22:01] Speaker 3: she was. And then the FBI got involved. I felt
[22:03] Speaker 3: a lot of guilt about that.
[22:05] Speaker 1: So you start chatting with my mom and you're not
[22:07] Speaker 1: feeling guilty about it at first. And then how did
[22:10] Speaker 1: things begin to evolve?
[22:13] Speaker 3: I had a lot of psychological changes in my own
[22:15] Speaker 3: mind because after I submitted to Sam fully after our
[22:18] Speaker 3: fights and after all the hashing it out and I
[22:21] Speaker 3: agreed to like fully be his wife on November 13th,
[22:25] Speaker 3: things loosened up for me quite a bit where Sam
[22:28] Speaker 3: got to be a lot kinder and there was a
[22:31] Speaker 3: lot less pressure. So I would have this communication with
[22:34] Speaker 3: Christine and she would tell me like, Sam thinks he's
[22:36] Speaker 3: winning with you. And to be a hundred percent honest,
[22:39] Speaker 3: he was. But hearing Christine say that, I was like,
[22:42] Speaker 3: oh my God, no. I can't let him think that.
[22:47] Speaker 3: It's annoying. So there would be little spats and stuff
[22:53] Speaker 3: where I would see something like an interaction with a minor.
[22:57] Speaker 3: Cause she would always ask me like, has he slept
[22:59] Speaker 3: with the minors? What's he doing with the minors? She
[23:01] Speaker 3: was always asking me these questions of like what to
[23:03] Speaker 3: look out for. And I wasn't the best at spying
[23:08] Speaker 3: because I did not want to be like a Judas
[23:11] Speaker 3: Iscariot that was sitting there like taking notes. Like I
[23:13] Speaker 3: wanted to, again, give him the benefit of a doubt
[23:16] Speaker 3: for in case it happened to be good, then I'd
[23:18] Speaker 3: be right there because I was still somewhat brainwashed. So
[23:22] Speaker 3: I would I would notice things and I would observe them,
[23:24] Speaker 3: but I would not actively try to like go in
[23:27] Speaker 3: his bedroom and look at what he was doing. And
[23:30] Speaker 3: part of the reason for that too is that he
[23:32] Speaker 3: suspected me of being a spy, like from day one. Oh.
[23:36] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[23:36] Speaker 3: And that's because when I brought the cops in DCS.
[23:40] Speaker 1: Right.
[23:41] Speaker 3: So I had done it before. So why wouldn't I
[23:42] Speaker 3: do it again? He was very careful and he let
[23:45] Speaker 3: me know. He's like, whenever you're around, I can't train
[23:50] Speaker 3: my family to the capacity that God wants me to.
[23:53] Speaker 3: Because I don't know if you're going to go call
[23:54] Speaker 3: the cops.
[23:55] Speaker 1: Train them.
[23:56] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[23:57] Speaker 1: Okay.
[23:58] Speaker 3: And it made me wonder what he was doing when
[24:02] Speaker 3: I wasn't there.
[24:03] Speaker 4: Right.
[24:03] Speaker 5: But it would also bring up in me, at least,
[24:06] Speaker 5: the feeling of like, well, hey, man, I'm cool.
[24:09] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[24:10] Speaker 3: Yes. Yes, exactly. So that's what I did. I tried
[24:14] Speaker 3: to just fit in as much as I could.
[24:16] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[24:16] Speaker 1: Like, I'm not a narc, I swear.
[24:18] Speaker 5: Yeah. Snitches get stitches and I'm not. A snitch.
[24:22] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[24:22] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[24:23] Speaker 3: Like nobody wants to be a snitch. Nobody wants to
[24:25] Speaker 3: be the traitor. Yeah. And it wasn't fun for me.
[24:27] Speaker 3: It was not some adventure where like, oh my God,
[24:30] Speaker 3: he did this. Now I have to go tell Christine.
[24:32] Speaker 3: And like, no, it was awful because it's my family's
[24:35] Speaker 3: lives on the line. Because the more that we uncovered
[24:38] Speaker 3: with the sex crimes and everything, I realized it wasn't
[24:41] Speaker 3: as simple as taking him out and putting him in jail.
[24:45] Speaker 3: The crimes involved people that I loved the most, like
[24:49] Speaker 3: my mom. my other moms, my older brothers. And I
[24:52] Speaker 3: realized that they were going to suffer for his crimes.
[24:57] Speaker 3: And the more that he had power over them, they
[25:00] Speaker 3: were going to keep committing crimes.
[25:03] Speaker 1: Right.
[25:03] Speaker 3: And it would land them in prison too.
[25:06] Speaker 1: Was that the thing that made you finally decide to
[25:10] Speaker 1: spy a little more seriously, thinking about your family? Yes.
[25:14] Speaker 3: And once we had proof that he was 100% sleeping
[25:16] Speaker 3: with minors, it... made me much more urgent to stop
[25:21] Speaker 3: it because every day behind closed doors, I don't know
[25:23] Speaker 3: what they're going through and I don't know what they're suffering.
[25:26] Speaker 3: And from their journals and what they've read about their experiences,
[25:29] Speaker 3: it was excruciating what they were going through. And they
[25:33] Speaker 3: would say that it was a righteous suffering for God
[25:36] Speaker 3: and that it was their privilege to do it. But
[25:39] Speaker 3: in my mind, I was thinking, oh my God, this
[25:41] Speaker 3: has to stop. So I went over to Christine and
[25:44] Speaker 3: I would almost yell at her like, what can we do? Like,
[25:49] Speaker 3: what can we do like today? This can't go on.
[25:53] Speaker 3: And she's like, it's in the process. It's coming. It's coming.
[25:55] Speaker 1: So what was the first thing that you were like,
[25:58] Speaker 1: this is irrefutable evidence that he is having sex with
[26:02] Speaker 1: minors or engaging in sex crimes?
[26:05] Speaker 3: So the first thing I saw him, this is disgusting,
[26:10] Speaker 3: passionately make out with three minors on the same night.
[26:14] Speaker 3: So there was a There was a 14-year-old, a 13-year-old,
[26:19] Speaker 3: and a 9, 10-year-old.
[26:22] Speaker 1: Oh, my God. Jesus Christ.
[26:24] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[26:25] Speaker 1: And he's just doing that in front of everyone. Yeah.
[26:28] Speaker 3: It was up on a mountain, so it was kind
[26:29] Speaker 3: of dark. I don't know if he intended for me
[26:32] Speaker 3: to see that, but it's disgusting. And second, he had
[26:36] Speaker 3: this hot tub that he had in a tent so
[26:40] Speaker 3: no one could see from the outside what was going
[26:42] Speaker 3: on in there. He sent one of the miners to
[26:44] Speaker 3: come get me. to get in with them. And I'm thinking, oh,
[26:48] Speaker 3: it's normal FLDS pool. Because in the FLDS, we get
[26:50] Speaker 3: in like full dresses on. We go swimming like that.
[26:54] Speaker 3: And so, yeah, I had never seen my sisters and
[26:59] Speaker 3: my moms in anything but like clothes up to here
[27:03] Speaker 3: and down to their ankles and down to their wrists,
[27:05] Speaker 3: like nothing.
[27:06] Speaker 1: That's very serious modesty. Yeah. Yes.
[27:09] Speaker 3: So I go to get in this tent and I
[27:13] Speaker 3: just look in and he's in there and he's naked
[27:15] Speaker 3: and He has several wives in there and they're naked.
[27:19] Speaker 3: And I just slammed it. I was like, oh my God,
[27:21] Speaker 3: what did I see? And then I realized that if
[27:24] Speaker 3: I was doing that, it was going to make me
[27:26] Speaker 3: look suspicious. And I could hear him in there saying,
[27:29] Speaker 3: who's out there? Who's out there? Like, what's that noise?
[27:32] Speaker 3: And so I like paused for a second and I
[27:34] Speaker 3: tried to calm myself. And then I just ran away.
[27:38] Speaker 1: Dude, what a mindfuck. There must have been so much
[27:41] Speaker 1: battling in your head at the same time there. Yeah.
[27:44] Speaker 1: You're like, I don't want him to think I'm a snitch.
[27:46] Speaker 1: I don't want to ruin everyone's lives, but also something
[27:49] Speaker 1: horrible is going on. Like, oh my God. Yeah.
[27:52] Speaker 3: So I was going to pretend that I didn't see that.
[27:55] Speaker 3: And I ran back to my office because I had
[27:57] Speaker 3: a job on his property. It was like a little shed.
[28:01] Speaker 3: And I just sit there and I'm like waiting. And
[28:03] Speaker 3: he sends this minor again. And he said, father's wondering
[28:06] Speaker 3: where you are. And I said, I don't think I
[28:09] Speaker 3: want to get in the hot tub this time. I'm
[28:12] Speaker 3: just busy and I'd rather not. And she's like, okay.
[28:15] Speaker 3: She goes back. She tells him. And she comes again
[28:17] Speaker 3: with another message. And she said, Father said to tell
[28:20] Speaker 3: you that you are actively disobeying the Spirit of God
[28:23] Speaker 3: if you don't want to get in.
[28:24] Speaker 1: So you got in. Mm-mm. You didn't get in. You
[28:27] Speaker 1: still didn't get in.
[28:27] Speaker 5: Hell yeah, girl.
[28:31] Speaker 3: No. No. I did not want to. Yeah. I didn't
[28:37] Speaker 3: want to show my body to my sisters and my moms.
[28:41] Speaker 1: Understandable.
[28:42] Speaker 5: Completely.
[28:43] Speaker 1: Were you telling my mom about this stuff as it
[28:46] Speaker 1: was happening? Like, is that when that kind of started?
[28:49] Speaker 3: Yes, I told her about that. And her first question was,
[28:51] Speaker 3: were there any minors? And there wasn't at that point.
[28:54] Speaker 1: Okay.
[28:55] Speaker 3: I think he did that on purpose because he was
[28:57] Speaker 3: prepping for me to incorporate into this. And I would
[29:01] Speaker 3: have freaked out if there were minors.
[29:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[29:04] Speaker 4: What was your state of mind before? in like the
[29:07] Speaker 4: religious sense, did you think that perhaps he was still
[29:11] Speaker 4: getting messages from God?
[29:13] Speaker 5: Were you gleaning.
[29:15] Speaker 4: Any, I'm using quotation marks, spiritual wisdom from him in
[29:21] Speaker 4: your mind? Or were you just like, this man is insane?
[29:25] Speaker 2: By that time, I believe I knew about Helam and Jeff.
[29:30] Speaker 3: So I came to the conclusion that he was making
[29:34] Speaker 3: stuff up on his own for his own religious benefit.
[29:38] Speaker 3: I couldn't 100%. back it up. I didn't know. And
[29:42] Speaker 3: there were a lot of things that he taught that
[29:46] Speaker 3: I thought were wise. So yes.
[29:48] Speaker 1: Who is Helam and Jeff's?
[29:49] Speaker 3: Helam and Jeff's is Warren Jeff's son who was actually
[29:51] Speaker 3: talking to Warren Jeff's. So once we had that proof
[29:55] Speaker 3: of another connection with real with Warren Jeff's, Sam lost
[29:58] Speaker 3: his shit.
[30:00] Speaker 1: Oh, so it's like he's actually alive, not dead, dude.
[30:05] Speaker 3: Yeah. So he told us that the whole family, that
[30:07] Speaker 3: everybody was brainwashed and that Helaman was making up some shit.
[30:10] Speaker 3: And he got really mad if any of us even
[30:13] Speaker 3: mentioned Helaman Jeffs.
[30:14] Speaker 4: So Sam goes, that son of Warren Jeffs is making
[30:17] Speaker 4: up that Warren Jeffs is still alive. I'm really mad.
[30:20] Speaker 5: He's lying.
[30:22] Speaker 4: And everybody either double down with me or.
[30:25] Speaker 1: Or get out. Oh, my God.
[30:28] Speaker 5: Get out to the nothingness that I've created.
[30:30] Speaker 1: For you to escape to. So confusing. Wow. And were
[30:36] Speaker 1: you like, I don't know, I don't know who to believe?
[30:38] Speaker 1: Or did you believe Helam and Jeff's?
[30:40] Speaker 3: I was still confused about who to believe. Yeah. Yeah.
[30:43] Speaker 5: I mean, what kind of messages was Helium, Helium Jeffs?
[30:45] Speaker 3: Wow.
[30:46] Speaker 1: Helium. Helium.
[30:47] Speaker 5: Okay, I'm sorry. I'm saying Helium.
[30:49] Speaker 4: Helium Jeffs saying that his father was saying because at
[30:52] Speaker 4: this point, I assumed Warren was just like, I like Sky.
[30:57] Speaker 3: That is very Warren Jeffs. Oh, my God.
[31:08] Speaker 5: Was he saying real stuff that Warren was saying, do
[31:10] Speaker 5: you think? Or was he just making up stuff too?
[31:13] Speaker 3: I don't know.
[31:14] Speaker 5: Yeah, who knows?
[31:15] Speaker 3: I did get a revelation from Helaman Jeffs. Yeah. Actually,
[31:20] Speaker 3: Christine gave it to me. And again, I don't know
[31:23] Speaker 3: that Warren Jeffs has a state of mind to write that.
[31:25] Speaker 3: So who knows if Warren Jeffs is writing that or not?
[31:28] Speaker 3: I don't care. It doesn't.
[31:30] Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it doesn't matter.
[31:31] Speaker 3: It doesn't involve me.
[31:32] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[31:32] Speaker 3: But this particular revelation was condemning Sam. and Moroni and
[31:38] Speaker 3: the evil sex crimes they were committing. So that felt
[31:42] Speaker 3: a little more legit. And at that point, yeah, I
[31:45] Speaker 3: couldn't believe Sam after that.
[31:47] Speaker 5: Got it. Wow, okay.
[31:49] Speaker 1: So you start telling my mom what's going on, and
[31:53] Speaker 1: she had reached out to the police, and there wasn't
[31:56] Speaker 1: really any movement. How did it kind of escalate from there,
[32:00] Speaker 1: and were you terrified?
[32:03] Speaker 3: Definitely terrified. We wanted the police to act— As soon
[32:06] Speaker 3: as possible. But even after the recording of the atonement,
[32:09] Speaker 3: which you'll find out in the documentary about that. But
[32:14] Speaker 3: after she gave that over to the police, they kept saying, oh,
[32:18] Speaker 3: we need a victim to come forward. This is not
[32:20] Speaker 3: enough information for us to act. So when I was
[32:24] Speaker 3: there among the wives, I was always looking for somebody
[32:28] Speaker 3: who might be doubting or starting to kind of find cracks.
[32:35] Speaker 3: and was willing to voice it to me.
[32:38] Speaker 5: And this victim needs to be underage.
[32:40] Speaker 1: Or just testify about having witnessed?
[32:43] Speaker 3: They did want the actual victim who was underage, who
[32:47] Speaker 3: we knew was used in a sex ritual. They wanted
[32:51] Speaker 3: that very one, which is so unrealistic.
[32:54] Speaker 5: I mean, that's incredibly unrealistic.
[32:56] Speaker 1: Yeah. Children shouldn't be the ones who have to speak
[33:00] Speaker 1: to that experience. It should be the adults who witness.
[33:03] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[33:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, no.
[33:05] Speaker 3: Plus, she was so loyal to Sam. And what were
[33:08] Speaker 3: we to do to try to get her to talk
[33:12] Speaker 3: about it?
[33:13] Speaker 1: The child was.
[33:13] Speaker 3: Yeah. Plus, I didn't want to make her talk about it.
[33:16] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[33:16] Speaker 3: Like, what if she doesn't want to? That's really traumatic.
[33:19] Speaker 3: And I didn't want to say, oh, you know, go
[33:21] Speaker 3: relive this.
[33:22] Speaker 2: Right.
[33:23] Speaker 3: I did not want to be that one to have
[33:25] Speaker 3: to say that. But I just wanted anybody who had
[33:27] Speaker 3: witnessed it or had anything to do with it to
[33:29] Speaker 3: come forward. But they weren't going to talk to me
[33:32] Speaker 3: because I was so shunned. in Sam's eyes that if
[33:36] Speaker 3: any of his other wives got super close to me
[33:38] Speaker 3: or became friends, they were automatically a suspect. Right.
[33:41] Speaker 4: Right.
[33:42] Speaker 3: So it was, it was tough for me in that situation.
[33:45] Speaker 5: Your best friend is gnomes.
[33:47] Speaker 4: When you watch the documentary, you're like, whoa, no one
[33:49] Speaker 4: is quite as loyal to Sam as gnomes.
[33:52] Speaker 5: Were you just like back in the day? Like, what
[33:56] Speaker 5: happened to my best friend? Where are you? Is there
[33:59] Speaker 5: anyone home?
[33:59] Speaker 4: Like, what was that like to see your friend?
[34:01] Speaker 3: That's very accurate. I would always think about how she
[34:04] Speaker 3: was a whole different person now. And I would say,
[34:07] Speaker 3: where are you? Where's the authentic version of you? Because
[34:11] Speaker 3: you won't even laugh about the jokes that we used
[34:15] Speaker 3: to find so funny. Like, I go to crack a
[34:17] Speaker 3: joke to you and it's like, I want to prepare
[34:20] Speaker 3: so Father can use me in the redemption of Zion.
[34:22] Speaker 2: Like, stop.
[34:23] Speaker 3: It's like a robot. And I remember saying this to her.
[34:26] Speaker 3: I was like, I just want to crack the surface.
[34:30] Speaker 3: I just want to find the real you. And it
[34:33] Speaker 3: was a conversation where I was like crying and everything.
[34:35] Speaker 3: It was actually the day that Sam was bringing me
[34:38] Speaker 3: home to marry him. And she was just like emotionless.
[34:43] Speaker 3: So I read about it later in a book that
[34:45] Speaker 3: Christine gave me about the cult self and the authentic self.
[34:49] Speaker 3: And I know that it would have been dangerous for
[34:51] Speaker 3: her to engage in that kind of behavior. But we
[34:54] Speaker 3: did try a little bit. There were times when she
[34:57] Speaker 3: would slip up. And there was one time we started
[34:59] Speaker 3: sending videos to each other after Sam had me kicked
[35:03] Speaker 3: out because I screwed up as a wife and I
[35:04] Speaker 3: couldn't be there. So Gnomes and I would send videos
[35:07] Speaker 3: to each other about just little things we thought were funny.
[35:10] Speaker 3: And that was fun for a while. And we would
[35:13] Speaker 3: try to ignore all the religious stuff. But as soon
[35:16] Speaker 3: as Sam found out about it, he punished Gnomes and
[35:20] Speaker 3: he shut it up.
[35:21] Speaker 1: Wait, so you were sent away again, but once you
[35:24] Speaker 1: were already a wife?
[35:26] Speaker 3: Yes. So I was sent away, but just across town.
[35:30] Speaker 2: Okay.
[35:30] Speaker 3: Yeah, he had two houses, the blue house and the
[35:32] Speaker 3: green house. I personally like to call them the good
[35:35] Speaker 3: wife and the bad wife house because I just think
[35:36] Speaker 3: that's funny. And the fact that I was just like banned.
[35:40] Speaker 3: And for the other wives who offended him for a
[35:43] Speaker 3: night or something, he would kick them out and they
[35:46] Speaker 3: would go.
[35:47] Speaker 5: Oh, the bad wife house sounds better.
[35:49] Speaker 1: Sounds more fun.
[35:50] Speaker 4: It was.
[35:51] Speaker 3: It was really lonely, to be honest. There was one
[35:53] Speaker 3: of Moroni's wives there and her little kids. So I
[35:57] Speaker 3: spent a lot of time with them. And I spent
[35:59] Speaker 3: so much time just like cooking and cleaning and do
[36:02] Speaker 3: everything that I knew how to do. And that's also
[36:05] Speaker 3: when I started sneaking out with Christine, going to bars.
[36:09] Speaker 1: Going to bars? Whoa.
[36:11] Speaker 3: Okay. Not like that.
[36:14] Speaker 5: Not like that.
[36:16] Speaker 3: Like playing at bars, playing little made up songs and stuff.
[36:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[36:22] Speaker 5: Oh my God. Awesome.
[36:24] Speaker 1: So cool.
[36:25] Speaker 3: Less like a bar and more like a little hometown
[36:27] Speaker 3: brewery thing.
[36:29] Speaker 5: That's my kind of double life. I love this.
[36:32] Speaker 3: I loved it.
[36:33] Speaker 1: Did Sam know that you were playing music?
[36:35] Speaker 3: No, no. One time I did confess to him that
[36:38] Speaker 3: I wrote a song about him that made fun of him.
[36:41] Speaker 3: And I was like, I was like, just so you know, like,
[36:45] Speaker 3: cause we had to confess everything. And I was like, yeah,
[36:47] Speaker 3: I was playing around on the guitar and I thought
[36:49] Speaker 3: this was funny. So I made the song about you
[36:51] Speaker 3: and it like criticized you. And he didn't even reply
[36:55] Speaker 3: for like two days. And finally he was like, do
[36:59] Speaker 3: you even care about how I feel? Like I have feelings,
[37:02] Speaker 3: you know that? Like I'm a human. And I'm like,
[37:05] Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I just thought it was funny, you know?
[37:07] Speaker 4: You're like, I promise the song, The Dumbest Man in
[37:10] Speaker 4: the World isn't about you.
[37:13] Speaker 3: No, it's totally about him. He didn't know that I
[37:18] Speaker 3: was sneaking out and playing.
[37:20] Speaker 1: Cool. So you're living a full blown double life at
[37:23] Speaker 1: that point then.
[37:24] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[37:24] Speaker 3: I even started dating at that point.
[37:26] Speaker 1: Whoa.
[37:27] Speaker 4: So Christine is just kind of like, you're going to
[37:31] Speaker 4: be able to follow some passions that are important to you. Also,
[37:35] Speaker 4: while you're stuck with this man, keep gathering information so
[37:39] Speaker 4: that we can take him down.
[37:40] Speaker 1: Yes.
[37:41] Speaker 4: I recall you, perhaps I'm wrong, but you started sneaking
[37:45] Speaker 4: evidence out and cleaning supplies. Is that what started happening
[37:49] Speaker 4: or was that Julia?
[37:50] Speaker 3: That was me helping Julia. Okay.
[37:52] Speaker 1: Let's talk about Julia for a second. So for folks
[37:55] Speaker 1: who haven't seen the doc, Julia is one of the
[37:57] Speaker 1: wives who came forward and started giving information to the
[38:00] Speaker 1: FBI along with you.
[38:01] Speaker 3: Yes. So.
[38:02] Speaker 1: How did you become aware of each other both questioning?
[38:06] Speaker 3: Julia and I were super close before that. And I
[38:09] Speaker 3: knew she was having doubts and struggling with her daughters
[38:13] Speaker 3: being kept from her and being married to Sam because
[38:15] Speaker 3: she didn't know what was happening. And her and I
[38:18] Speaker 3: would go to town and buy flowers and just hang
[38:21] Speaker 3: out a lot. And eventually, Christine told me that Julia
[38:26] Speaker 3: was doubting. And when I found out about it, because
[38:30] Speaker 3: it was on one of these trips where Julia was
[38:33] Speaker 3: in the front seat. I was in the back and
[38:34] Speaker 3: she looked up and she's like, I want you to
[38:37] Speaker 3: know that we got off on the wrong damn path
[38:42] Speaker 3: and Sam is leading us straight to hell. And I
[38:44] Speaker 3: was like, oh my God, like, this is my person.
[38:51] Speaker 3: Here's my doubter. Here's my traitor. Somebody on my side.
[38:55] Speaker 3: Somebody who I can talk to.
[38:57] Speaker 1: Oh my God. Did that just like make you feel
[38:59] Speaker 1: so much more free?
[39:00] Speaker 3: It did. I was so relieved. But I also wish
[39:04] Speaker 3: that we had someone who was even closer because I
[39:07] Speaker 3: didn't know how much Julia knew, but it's because she
[39:10] Speaker 3: didn't tell me everything she knew. I did not realize
[39:13] Speaker 3: all the shit that was happening before I even got there.
[39:16] Speaker 3: So she was much more of a witness. She had
[39:19] Speaker 3: so much more information. And once she was there, I
[39:22] Speaker 3: could kind of step back and say, oh, here's your witness.
[39:25] Speaker 3: I'm going to stop trying to dig for things because
[39:27] Speaker 3: we have it. It was a relief.
[39:29] Speaker 1: Why didn't you participate in the documentary? I'm guessing people
[39:35] Speaker 1: will wonder that because you did play such a big
[39:36] Speaker 1: role in this unraveling.
[39:40] Speaker 3: There are a couple of reasons. So first off, when
[39:43] Speaker 3: that raid happened, they arrested my friends, my sisters, one
[39:48] Speaker 3: of my mom's, people that I cared about the most.
[39:50] Speaker 3: And even though I participated in helping take Sam down,
[39:54] Speaker 3: I never wanted to participate in putting them in jail
[39:58] Speaker 3: because in my mind, they're victims. And I wanted a
[40:02] Speaker 3: relationship with them after they got out of jail and
[40:05] Speaker 3: while they navigated life. And they were so against the
[40:08] Speaker 3: documentary that I was afraid they were going to cut
[40:11] Speaker 3: me off. And also, I wasn't proud of the traitorous
[40:16] Speaker 3: part that I played not because of what happened to Sam,
[40:19] Speaker 3: but because of what happened to them.
[40:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense.
[40:22] Speaker 3: I did not want to brag and say, I contributed
[40:26] Speaker 3: to your pain. And oh my God, like, I'm so
[40:29] Speaker 3: happy you went to jail. Like, no, like I was
[40:31] Speaker 3: hurt that they arrested those people. And then also I
[40:35] Speaker 3: had a family member who told me that like I
[40:38] Speaker 3: was contaminated and disgusting for being in the Sam stuff.
[40:41] Speaker 3: And I thought that because she was so wise in
[40:44] Speaker 3: my mind, she was so cool. I looked up to
[40:46] Speaker 3: her so much. I thought that was how the whole
[40:48] Speaker 3: world was going to look at somebody who was involved
[40:51] Speaker 3: with that.
[40:52] Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.
[40:53] Speaker 4: Right.
[40:53] Speaker 3: Okay.
[40:53] Speaker 4: So somebody in your family who wasn't in Sam's group
[40:56] Speaker 4: is like, you're contaminated for being a part of that.
[41:00] Speaker 3: Yeah. It was someone who wasn't in the FLDS. She
[41:02] Speaker 3: had left. She had had an incredible experience of her
[41:06] Speaker 3: own victimization and leaving. And she had kids and she
[41:10] Speaker 3: went far away and she built a life for herself.
[41:12] Speaker 3: And I look up to this person so much. But
[41:15] Speaker 3: her words just stayed in my mind. I would just
[41:19] Speaker 3: hear them over and over and over. And it made
[41:21] Speaker 3: me never want to talk about it. Right.
[41:24] Speaker 4: Were you surprised at how the documentary was received?
[41:28] Speaker 1: Yes.
[41:28] Speaker 2: I was really happy because I did not expect that.
[41:31] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[41:32] Speaker 1: So I want to know how you experienced the day
[41:36] Speaker 1: of the raid. Were you present? Were you with everyone?
[41:40] Speaker 3: I was at the bad wife house.
[41:43] Speaker 4: Okay.
[41:43] Speaker 3: There was another wife, one of my moms who actually
[41:46] Speaker 3: shared a room there. She would never stay there, but
[41:49] Speaker 3: she kept some of her stuff there. She woke me
[41:50] Speaker 3: up about seven in the morning and she's like, there's
[41:53] Speaker 3: cops out blocking both the entrances. Like no one can leave.
[41:57] Speaker 3: I think you should get up. So I was like,
[41:58] Speaker 3: oh my God, today's the day, you know?
[42:00] Speaker 1: So you knew, you were well aware of all of
[42:03] Speaker 1: this being planned. Yes.
[42:04] Speaker 3: I knew it was going to happen that week. I
[42:06] Speaker 3: didn't know the exact day, but when she told me
[42:08] Speaker 3: there was cops, I was like, oh my God, it's happening.
[42:10] Speaker 3: I was, I was a little bit excited. I'm not
[42:12] Speaker 3: going to lie. So we get up, I'm like in
[42:16] Speaker 3: my room and someone downstairs burst through the door and
[42:21] Speaker 3: just yells like the deepest voice, like come out with
[42:24] Speaker 3: your hands up, you know? So we all have to
[42:27] Speaker 3: like go out there and it's the FBI. And of
[42:29] Speaker 3: course I knew them. I knew the FBI.
[42:32] Speaker 1: Because you'd been talking to them. Yeah.
[42:34] Speaker 5: But you're like, who are you?
[42:36] Speaker 1: Yeah. Whoa. Who's this stranger? Yeah.
[42:41] Speaker 3: I also felt like the biggest dumbass because of that.
[42:44] Speaker 3: Because my mom and everybody's like, what's happening? And I'm like,
[42:47] Speaker 3: what's happening?
[42:48] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[42:52] Speaker 1: Employing your performance skills. Yeah.
[42:55] Speaker 3: Yes. But Julia was there too. And she came out
[42:58] Speaker 3: and she had to act the same way. Like, what
[42:59] Speaker 3: is going on? And these women, the ones that were
[43:03] Speaker 3: there at the bad wife house, they were still loyal
[43:05] Speaker 3: to him. Just saying. They weren't doing what I was doing.
[43:09] Speaker 3: They were terrified. They were like, what is going on?
[43:12] Speaker 3: And how did this happen? And they immediately start talking
[43:15] Speaker 3: about there has to be a traitor. Who's the traitor?
[43:19] Speaker 3: Everybody's known I was a traitor since like day one.
[43:21] Speaker 1: Right.
[43:22] Speaker 3: Yeah. So I'm sitting there like, I don't know. But
[43:27] Speaker 3: at least they didn't know about Julia. And it became
[43:30] Speaker 3: really apparent that, you know, I was out of the
[43:32] Speaker 3: bag immediately. But Julia and Christine weren't. And so we
[43:36] Speaker 3: kind of talked about it and we're like, what if
[43:38] Speaker 3: we just pretend that I did it all? And you
[43:41] Speaker 3: and Julia can keep doing your thing because they were still,
[43:45] Speaker 3: they wanted to be there for their daughters in the
[43:47] Speaker 3: aftermath because it was very stressful. And Christine, she... really
[43:52] Speaker 3: wanted to tell them her story. And she wanted to
[43:55] Speaker 3: do it at the right time. She didn't want Sam
[43:57] Speaker 3: to be there to interpret it all. And because she
[44:00] Speaker 3: had told me, I knew what the effect and how
[44:03] Speaker 3: they would see the similarities. So I wanted that to
[44:06] Speaker 3: happen too. But she wanted, she was like working with them,
[44:10] Speaker 3: just trying to be like a friend to them because
[44:11] Speaker 3: she wanted to slowly pull them away from Sam. So yeah,
[44:16] Speaker 3: I pretended like I did it. It was literally like
[44:20] Speaker 3: the next day, When they were calling me up saying,
[44:24] Speaker 3: who helped you? We know you did this. Like, you
[44:27] Speaker 3: need to turn in the rest of the people because
[44:28] Speaker 3: we know you couldn't have done this by yourself. Like,
[44:30] Speaker 3: and they started naming off all these apostates. Like, is
[44:33] Speaker 3: it your sister? Is it your dad? Like, who is
[44:36] Speaker 3: plotting against us to take us down? And I just
[44:39] Speaker 3: had to go along with it.
[44:40] Speaker 4: Where were you? Where were you hiding out? Did you
[44:42] Speaker 4: feel endangered?
[44:44] Speaker 3: After that phone call, I did end up leaving just
[44:47] Speaker 3: because it was too stressful to be there and be
[44:49] Speaker 3: suspected all the time. So Christine found a family for
[44:52] Speaker 3: me to stay with in St. George. It was like
[44:54] Speaker 3: a Mormon family. Because I was considering joining the Mormon church.
[44:58] Speaker 1: I was like, the world is too much for me.
[44:59] Speaker 1: The mainstream Mormon church.
[45:01] Speaker 3: Yeah. I was like, I want a gradual pass out
[45:04] Speaker 3: because I'm so scared of the outside world.
[45:05] Speaker 5: Of course.
[45:07] Speaker 3: So she set me up with a— The Mormon family.
[45:10] Speaker 3: We went to church and I was like, bitch, I'm
[45:11] Speaker 3: never showing you this.
[45:12] Speaker 1: So boring. Literally so boring. So similar.
[45:16] Speaker 4: You're like, I'll just face the unknown terror of existential
[45:19] Speaker 4: dread and all the rest.
[45:20] Speaker 1: Yes.
[45:21] Speaker 4: Instead of sitting through that. But yeah, I mean, there
[45:24] Speaker 4: was so much talk in Sam's group about blood atonement,
[45:28] Speaker 4: basically murdering people. So if I were you, I'd be like,
[45:32] Speaker 4: I'm scared someone's going to murder me. Was that ever
[45:36] Speaker 4: in your brain?
[45:37] Speaker 5: 100%.
[45:38] Speaker 3: Especially in the first days. Around the time of the raid,
[45:41] Speaker 3: just before it happened, Sam was so obsessed with blood
[45:44] Speaker 3: atonement that he had some of his wives go out
[45:47] Speaker 3: and practice shooting guns. And he would have them yell
[45:50] Speaker 3: and do this very aggressively. And I was like, oh
[45:53] Speaker 3: my God, they're coming for me. They're going to kill me.
[45:56] Speaker 3: So that was part of the fear of getting away.
[45:59] Speaker 3: I feel bad looking back on it now because they're victims.
[46:03] Speaker 3: And I thought that he was going to send gnomes
[46:06] Speaker 3: to kill me. That was literally what I was thinking.
[46:10] Speaker 3: And when I told her that, she's like, it's painful
[46:14] Speaker 3: for her. She's like, I would never do that. And
[46:17] Speaker 3: I'm like, you would have done anything Sam wanted. Like,
[46:20] Speaker 3: how was I supposed to know?
[46:22] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[46:23] Speaker 1: I mean, your fear makes sense and her hurt makes sense.
[46:26] Speaker 1: It all makes sense.
[46:27] Speaker 4: Yeah. I cannot imagine sitting with the fear that my
[46:31] Speaker 4: best friend is going to kill me. Dude.
[46:32] Speaker 5: And that your family... and friends and community might kill you. Like,
[46:38] Speaker 5: I don't think I've ever heard anything quite like that.
[46:40] Speaker 3: That's part of why I left.
[46:42] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[46:43] Speaker 1: I mean, just the ostracization.
[46:46] Speaker 4: Sure.
[46:47] Speaker 1: Ostracization. Alone, without this knowledge that he's been talking a
[46:51] Speaker 1: lot about Blunt Atonement and stuff would be so painful already. Yes. Like,
[46:56] Speaker 1: I know my mom was getting really hateful texts once
[46:59] Speaker 1: she was outed folks can listen to that episode with
[47:02] Speaker 1: her if they want to hear the story of how
[47:04] Speaker 1: that happened um but were you also just getting like
[47:07] Speaker 1: a slew of hateful texts and like messages and stuff.
[47:10] Speaker 3: Yes hateful ones and also ones that would say though
[47:14] Speaker 3: you hate father he will always love you things like
[47:17] Speaker 3: that still trying to like pull me in and at
[47:21] Speaker 3: one point when gnomes called me and tried to get
[47:23] Speaker 3: a bunch of information out of me and i kind
[47:26] Speaker 3: of told her how hard it was for me to
[47:30] Speaker 3: deal with this all. Sam actually had a lot of
[47:32] Speaker 3: compassion for me. And he said he had a revelation
[47:35] Speaker 3: of God that I didn't do it. And God told
[47:38] Speaker 3: him who did. And it was like the total wrong person.
[47:41] Speaker 3: So that was really funny.
[47:42] Speaker 4: Oh, wow.
[47:43] Speaker 1: That poor person. Yeah. Yeah.
[47:45] Speaker 3: It was somebody in Canada. It was so not accurate. Okay.
[47:48] Speaker 5: That's fine.
[47:51] Speaker 4: When did it finally click for you that this was
[47:54] Speaker 4: entirely bullshit? Sam is a complete grifter and I don't
[48:01] Speaker 4: have to be scared of him damning my soul anymore.
[48:04] Speaker 3: That was a gradual thing that I came to realize.
[48:08] Speaker 3: But one thing that did help a lot was he
[48:11] Speaker 3: would always get impressions and he would try to act
[48:15] Speaker 3: like the process of getting them. So he'd be sitting
[48:18] Speaker 3: there surrounded by his wives and then he'd be like,
[48:21] Speaker 3: I just had the impression that this wife should come
[48:23] Speaker 3: sit right here.
[48:24] Speaker 5: So he'd be just like staring off into space like.
[48:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, like he was getting messages.
[48:28] Speaker 5: A little bit of a psychic.
[48:30] Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
[48:31] Speaker 3: And then there was also one time when he was
[48:33] Speaker 3: trying to get information out of me about like what
[48:35] Speaker 3: I was doing. And I said... you're a prophet. You
[48:39] Speaker 3: can read my thoughts.
[48:40] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[48:41] Speaker 3: Tell me what I'm doing.
[48:42] Speaker 1: Which is what I say to psychics when they try
[48:44] Speaker 1: to get me to tell them.
[48:46] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[48:47] Speaker 3: And he said something like, you got to give me something.
[48:50] Speaker 1: Literally, a psychic has said that to me. Got to
[48:52] Speaker 1: give me something. Yeah. A psychic in quotation marks. Did
[48:56] Speaker 1: you visit gnomes in jail ever?
[48:59] Speaker 3: Yes, I did twice. I wish I would have more.
[49:02] Speaker 3: But the first time was really … It was traumatic.
[49:08] Speaker 3: I got a message from one of the other wives
[49:11] Speaker 3: who basically told me that gnomes didn't want to see
[49:13] Speaker 3: me and that I stomped all over her like a
[49:15] Speaker 3: rug and that I was the reason she was in
[49:17] Speaker 3: there and it stressed her. So I... gave gnomes her
[49:20] Speaker 3: space in prison because I didn't want to stress her
[49:23] Speaker 3: out anymore. And I didn't know if she, in that position,
[49:27] Speaker 3: in jail, wanted to look at the person who had
[49:29] Speaker 3: contributed to that and have me be like, how's it going?
[49:33] Speaker 3: I did not think she wanted to deal with that.
[49:35] Speaker 3: So I let her be until we started writing letters
[49:39] Speaker 3: And she would call me sometimes and it became obvious
[49:42] Speaker 3: that she wasn't standing up for Sam like she used to.
[49:46] Speaker 3: So yeah, I went and saw her again.
[49:48] Speaker 1: That's awesome. And when she got out of jail, how
[49:50] Speaker 1: long did it take for you guys to become close again?
[49:52] Speaker 3: It was a process because I didn't know if she
[49:54] Speaker 3: still believed in Sam. I didn't know if she was
[49:57] Speaker 3: still going to want to come find me and beat
[49:59] Speaker 3: me up or say like, what did you do to me?
[50:02] Speaker 3: I just spent two years in jail and you, you
[50:05] Speaker 3: did that. I didn't know if that was going to
[50:06] Speaker 3: be a conversation that we were going to have. So
[50:10] Speaker 3: it was difficult. We took it really slow and we
[50:13] Speaker 3: had some really hard conversations because I hadn't fully forgiven
[50:17] Speaker 3: her and I don't know if she'd fully forgiven me.
[50:20] Speaker 1: Yeah. But now, back to besties.
[50:25] Speaker 3: She doesn't live close to me anymore and I miss
[50:28] Speaker 3: her so freaking much.
[50:29] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[50:30] Speaker 3: I miss her every day. Yeah. She's so much fun.
[50:33] Speaker 1: The two of you together are like bursting with energy duo,
[50:38] Speaker 1: like this infectious energy. It's very cute. We are almost
[50:42] Speaker 1: out of time. I'd like to know how you're doing
[50:44] Speaker 1: now and how you're doing, you know, having gone public.
[50:47] Speaker 3: I'm so relieved to have it out there, have it
[50:50] Speaker 3: off my chest. It doesn't feel like something that's just
[50:52] Speaker 3: like weighing down on me. Like, oh my God, you've
[50:54] Speaker 3: got this thing. No, it's like, it's normal now. And
[50:57] Speaker 3: I love that.
[50:58] Speaker 1: That's awesome.
[50:59] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[51:00] Speaker 1: Are you still playing music? I hope.
[51:02] Speaker 3: Yes. Not as much as I used to. I was
[51:04] Speaker 3: in a band for a while and the lead singer.
[51:07] Speaker 3: She's pregnant. So we shut that down for a bit.
[51:10] Speaker 3: She's going to have a baby in like two weeks,
[51:12] Speaker 3: but we might do that again. I'm doing a song
[51:15] Speaker 3: with Tolga. Hopefully that'll be out really soon.
[51:18] Speaker 1: Yay.
[51:19] Speaker 4: Incredible.
[51:20] Speaker 3: Awesome. Excited to get that out into the world. I'm
[51:23] Speaker 3: in college.
[51:25] Speaker 1: What are you studying?
[51:25] Speaker 3: I'm studying architecture. It's what I've always wanted to do.
[51:29] Speaker 4: You just got back from Egypt and Rome and you're
[51:31] Speaker 4: exploring the world. And I know you must hear this
[51:35] Speaker 4: every single day, but you are a hero and a
[51:39] Speaker 4: legend and an inspiration.
[51:42] Speaker 5: And I cannot wait to watch where your life takes you.
[51:45] Speaker 4: Oh my God.
[51:46] Speaker 3: Thank you.
[51:47] Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on. And do you want to share
[51:49] Speaker 1: your socials or where people can find you?
[51:51] Speaker 3: So my Instagram is 16Makel. My Facebook is just like
[51:56] Speaker 3: Makel by sign, you know, boring. And then I have
[52:00] Speaker 3: a TikTok I post on very rarely. And I think
[52:03] Speaker 3: it's Makel by sign eight, I think.
[52:05] Speaker 1: And it's M-A-K-E-L-L-E. Yes.
[52:09] Speaker 3: Awesome.
[52:09] Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on finally. It was so good to
[52:11] Speaker 1: have you on.
[52:12] Speaker 3: Yes.
[52:12] Speaker 5: Thank you, Makel.
[52:13] Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. This has been fun.
[52:16] Speaker 1: And that is all we have with Mikkel Beislein. So
[52:19] Speaker 1: grateful to her for coming on the show and sharing
[52:22] Speaker 1: her story that, you know, we didn't get to see
[52:24] Speaker 1: in the documentary. And hopefully the world will be seeing
[52:27] Speaker 1: a lot more of her and of her music going forward,
[52:31] Speaker 1: considering all that she has been through and how talented
[52:34] Speaker 1: she is to boot.
[52:35] Speaker 5: Indeed.
[52:36] Speaker 4: Thank you so much for listening to another episode of
[52:40] Speaker 4: Trust Me. Please rate us five stars, leave a comment.
[52:44] Speaker 5: And as always.
[52:45] Speaker 4: Remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flags,
[52:50] Speaker 4: and never.
[52:51] Speaker 3: Ever trust me.
[52:53] Speaker 5: Bye.
[52:56] Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted by me.
[52:59] Speaker 5: Lola Blanc. And me, Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is
[53:02] Speaker 5: Jiha Lee.
[53:03] Speaker 4: This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Our associate producer
[53:06] Speaker 4: is Christina Chamberlain. And our guest booker is Patrick Kottner.
[53:10] Speaker 4: Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church. Trust
[53:13] Speaker 4: Me is executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hardstark, and
[53:17] Speaker 4: Danielle Kramer.
[53:18] Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at Trust Me Podcast
[53:20] Speaker 1: or on TikTok at Trust Me Cult Podcast.
[53:23] Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, or manipulation?
[53:26] Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail.com.
[53:29] Speaker 1: Listen to Trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
[53:32] Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.

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