# Liz Cameron, Part 1 - Jesus Morning Star aka JMS: A Bookstore, a Bible Study Group, and a Prophet on Earth

An episode of [Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1534370789), 4 Mar 2026, 55 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/f804eed6-dd2f-4bf9-ba37-b2de011a8b27/6acf20ba-c7ad-42df-b4ce-b3fc00179214/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=462fb424-93c4-4e4b-8e00-b2de011a8b44

This week is part one with Liz Cameron, survivor of South Korean religious sect Jesus Morning Star (aka JMS, aka Providence), and author of Cult Bride: How I Was Brainwashed – and How I Broke Free. She explains how her entry into JMS began with being approached by a woman in a bookstore for a harmless survey, and how that survey turned into a bible study group full of women who gained her trust and introduced her to their new and exciting Christian church. Liz shares how the group began encouraging her to spend more and more time together and get up earlier and earlier, and how they painted her old church, community, and even family as people who weren’t dedicated enough to Jesus–all as they slowly introduced the idea of an incredibly spiritually devoted man they called Pastor Joshua. Next week: we’ll get into how they began to reveal who Pastor Joshua really was (hint: his name was Jung Myung-seok), his criminal history, and how a god on earth could be sitting in a prison in Korea. SOURCES Cult Bride See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust her?
[0:04] Speaker 2: Right ever lead you astray? Trust?
[0:07] Speaker 3: This is the truth, the only truth.
[0:09] Speaker 1: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
[0:13] Speaker 1: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief
[0:17] Speaker 1: and manipulation from two early risers who've actually experienced it.
[0:21] Speaker 4: I am Low LeBlanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.
[0:26] Speaker 1: Today our guest is Liz Cameron. This is Part one
[0:29] Speaker 1: with her. She is a survivor of the JMS cult
[0:32] Speaker 1: aka Jesus Morning Star and author of Cultbride, How I
[0:36] Speaker 1: Was Brainwashed and How I Broke Free. So in Part
[0:39] Speaker 1: one today, she's going to talk to us about how
[0:40] Speaker 1: she was first approached by a woman in a bookstore
[0:43] Speaker 1: to do a survey, and how that survey turned into
[0:45] Speaker 1: a Bible study group full of women who gained her
[0:48] Speaker 1: trust and introduced her to their new and exciting church.
[0:52] Speaker 4: She'll explain how they began encouraging her to spend more
[0:55] Speaker 4: and more time together, get up earlier and earlier, and
[0:59] Speaker 4: painted her old church community and even family as people
[1:02] Speaker 4: who weren't dedicated enough to Jesus all as they slowly
[1:07] Speaker 4: introduced the idea of an incredibly spiritually devoted man, they
[1:12] Speaker 4: called Pastor Joshua.
[1:14] Speaker 1: And next week we will talk more about Pastor Joshua
[1:16] Speaker 1: and his criminal history. And it is something, It's really something.
[1:22] Speaker 4: Yeah, this story is it reaches like nightmare status for me,
[1:27] Speaker 4: so yes.
[1:28] Speaker 1: And she does such an incredible job in the book
[1:30] Speaker 1: and in this interview illustrating the like slow process of
[1:33] Speaker 1: how that indoctrination happens, which is really important, IMO. But
[1:38] Speaker 1: before we get into it with Liz Megan, what's your
[1:42] Speaker 1: cultiest thing this week?
[1:43] Speaker 4: My cultiest thing this week is that I'm obviously looking
[1:48] Speaker 4: at the Epstein files. We record a little bit early,
[1:51] Speaker 4: these intros and outros, so who knows what will have
[1:53] Speaker 4: happened by the time this actually comes out.
[1:55] Speaker 1: But here's my opinion.
[1:57] Speaker 4: Lola disagrees with it, so take it worth a grain
[2:01] Speaker 4: of Megan. I think that this story is so huge
[2:09] Speaker 4: and so disturbing that they are going to create a
[2:14] Speaker 4: fake alien invasion. That's what I honestly think Lola has
[2:18] Speaker 4: said from the beginning that they're going to start making
[2:21] Speaker 4: AI cult leaders, which you've already seen left in right.
[2:25] Speaker 4: I think people are going to start thinking AI is
[2:27] Speaker 4: a higher power, aliens are here that'll fix everything. And
[2:31] Speaker 4: I think it's all just going to be possibly not real.
[2:35] Speaker 4: I believe in aliens. Hopefully the real ones come, But.
[2:39] Speaker 1: Who's them, who's saying they're arriving.
[2:41] Speaker 4: Well, I just showed you Obama saying they're real, which
[2:46] Speaker 4: I never thought i'd ye.
[2:47] Speaker 1: To contextualize the clip, he's doing a rapid fire response
[2:52] Speaker 1: to questions, and he's saying aliens are real, They're not
[2:54] Speaker 1: an Area fifty one. He also said he didn't see
[2:56] Speaker 1: any evidence of them as in his presidency, but he
[3:00] Speaker 1: believes that they must be out there somewhere.
[3:02] Speaker 4: Maybe it's not aliens, maybe it's just ay. I think
[3:05] Speaker 4: that we need to just be very wary if something
[3:08] Speaker 4: like that happens.
[3:09] Speaker 1: You mean, if someone comes out and is like, there's
[3:11] Speaker 1: a higher power, look at this AI, there's alien. You
[3:14] Speaker 1: think that that's just like a distraction.
[3:17] Speaker 4: Yeah, unless I'm in the alien ship flying around the
[3:20] Speaker 4: galaxy going through wormholes, I'm not going to believe that.
[3:24] Speaker 4: I'm going to need that alien who lands the day
[3:28] Speaker 4: the unredacted files come out to come hold me and
[3:31] Speaker 4: it's arms, and then I'll believe it.
[3:36] Speaker 2: Okay.
[3:36] Speaker 1: I don't disagree with the idea that there are a
[3:39] Speaker 1: lot of powerful people who will do lots of things
[3:41] Speaker 1: to distract the public from the Epstein files. And yeah,
[3:45] Speaker 1: and just skeptical of.
[3:47] Speaker 4: Being a fake alien invasion. I mean, listen, and I
[3:50] Speaker 4: wouldn't put it past people.
[3:51] Speaker 1: But I don't think that that comment is on is
[3:53] Speaker 1: evidence of that personally. No, it's not, it's not. It's
[3:56] Speaker 1: just this shit's freaking crazy.
[3:59] Speaker 4: A lot of this just reminds me of what Liz
[4:02] Speaker 4: was going through, where somebody very normal and human is
[4:05] Speaker 4: attributing a lot of magical stuff to themselves and it's
[4:09] Speaker 4: very confusing.
[4:10] Speaker 1: So that's what id me think about? What about you?
[4:12] Speaker 1: What's your cultiest thing of the week? I now know
[4:15] Speaker 1: a new person who is claiming to be Jesus. Oh
[4:21] Speaker 1: my god, that's like seven people. I think it's like four,
[4:25] Speaker 1: but and these are all I know so peripherally. And
[4:28] Speaker 1: he's posting memes of AI, images of him with Kanye
[4:32] Speaker 1: and with like other powerful people as like they're going
[4:34] Speaker 1: to save the world. Clearly is just like having a
[4:38] Speaker 1: mental health episode. And so you know, I don't I
[4:41] Speaker 1: don't want to like, I don't want to give I
[4:43] Speaker 1: don't want to say anything else about him specifically, But
[4:45] Speaker 1: what's fascinating is just that there are people in his
[4:49] Speaker 1: comments who clearly follow him, Like it's not like an
[4:54] Speaker 1: in a vacuum, like a person's having a mental health episode.
[4:57] Speaker 1: When I met him, he's nothing seemed culty about him necessarily,
[5:01] Speaker 1: but it seems like over time, while having these you know,
[5:05] Speaker 1: delusions about himself, has garnered a following of people who
[5:10] Speaker 1: really believe this, And there's a lot of illuminati talk,
[5:14] Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And it's just fascinating because
[5:17] Speaker 1: because I, like I definitely talked about there was one
[5:19] Speaker 1: guy I did a music session with who was saying
[5:22] Speaker 1: stuff like this and was like, doing these like scam healings,
[5:25] Speaker 1: but he doesn't believe they're scam healings.
[5:28] Speaker 2: Correct.
[5:28] Speaker 1: Do you think that he thinks that they're real? He
[5:30] Speaker 1: thinks that they're really Yeah, yeah, he's charging people for
[5:32] Speaker 1: them and a different person.
[5:34] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
[5:35] Speaker 1: Anyway, it's fascinating to watch how and it makes me wonder,
[5:40] Speaker 1: I guess how many folks who start cults like truly
[5:46] Speaker 1: maybe are not sociopathic but are actually like just in
[5:51] Speaker 1: a psychotic episode, a prolonged psychotic episode. You know.
[5:54] Speaker 4: It's called the episode we did with and please google
[5:58] Speaker 4: our our trust Me episode we did with somebody named
[6:02] Speaker 4: Anne totally. She went through the exact same thing, and
[6:06] Speaker 4: the human brain when it's going through that, it uses
[6:10] Speaker 4: similar amentions a lot of the time, and it's very interesting.
[6:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, And I went out with a guy recently who
[6:16] Speaker 1: told me about a prolonged manic episode he had in
[6:18] Speaker 1: which he experienced hyper religiosity. And in my mind, for
[6:21] Speaker 1: some reason, I think of manic episodes as being like
[6:24] Speaker 1: a couple months maybe, but this was like a couple
[6:26] Speaker 1: of years. Like I didn't. I guess it never occurred
[6:28] Speaker 1: to me that it could really like last and then
[6:30] Speaker 1: stale emerge out of it.
[6:31] Speaker 4: Anyway, it's it's fascinating. Wow, that's I mean, poor guy. Yeah,
[6:36] Speaker 4: it's just.
[6:37] Speaker 1: Such chaotic times that I suspect, like with COVID, because
[6:42] Speaker 1: so many people had mental health episodes during the COVID era,
[6:46] Speaker 1: I suspect there's going to be a wave of that
[6:47] Speaker 1: right now as well. So if someone comes out and
[6:50] Speaker 1: says I had a vision and I'm the prophet, maybebe
[6:53] Speaker 1: a little skeptical until things settle down societally. Yes, all right,
[6:57] Speaker 1: let's talk to Liz, now, shall we? Shall we welcome
[7:03] Speaker 1: Liz Cameron to trust me. Thanks for joining us.
[7:06] Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
[7:08] Speaker 1: We have like one thousand questions for you today because
[7:13] Speaker 1: of the book that you wrote called Cult Bride, How
[7:16] Speaker 1: I Was Brainwashed and How I Broke Free, which for
[7:20] Speaker 1: listeners is about the Providence Cult or JMS or no
[7:24] Speaker 1: other names as well, right, so many Yeah, Well, first
[7:28] Speaker 1: of all, I just want to compliment your book because
[7:30] Speaker 1: I feel like you laid out the process of indoctrination
[7:34] Speaker 1: so very well, where I like really understood each layer
[7:37] Speaker 1: in each step, like why you made the decision that
[7:40] Speaker 1: you made, the process of manipulation that was happening there,
[7:43] Speaker 1: whether it was intentional on their parts or not. And
[7:46] Speaker 1: so yeah, you just really did a really great job
[7:48] Speaker 1: of what it feels like to actually get indoctrinated, which
[7:52] Speaker 1: is a really specific thing. You know, it's not a
[7:54] Speaker 1: childhood experience. It's very different.
[7:56] Speaker 2: Thank you know that that means a lot. And I
[7:59] Speaker 2: find any time that someone who has had experience in
[8:02] Speaker 2: the kind of system that I have says that it
[8:04] Speaker 2: felt real to them. I really just want other people
[8:07] Speaker 2: to feel seen in the book that they you know,
[8:10] Speaker 2: like those dynamics ring through for them, so that means
[8:13] Speaker 2: a lot to hear.
[8:13] Speaker 1: Think, Yeah, I mean, and the book is just fascinating.
[8:17] Speaker 4: The story that we're about to get into is unbelievable.
[8:22] Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you, I think, yeah.
[8:24] Speaker 4: It's my trauma.
[8:30] Speaker 2: All right.
[8:30] Speaker 5: Well, so tell us a little bit just about before
[8:33] Speaker 5: this whole process actually begins, Like, what was your relationship
[8:37] Speaker 5: to faith before you met members of the group.
[8:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I grew up a very Christian, like I
[8:46] Speaker 2: tent to call it fundamentalist Christian because it was that
[8:48] Speaker 2: kind of like I don't know if you guys have
[8:51] Speaker 2: heard about the Brownsville Revival. I believe it started in
[8:54] Speaker 2: the States, but it was kind of like this spiritual
[8:56] Speaker 2: movement of people, you know, wave of the Holy Spirit,
[8:59] Speaker 2: people getting safe. And I remember growing up, my parents
[9:02] Speaker 2: would you know, take because it was this charismatic, evangelical
[9:06] Speaker 2: kind of Protestant Christian church and to go on Sundays
[9:10] Speaker 2: and then we'd have Bible study groups and cell groups
[9:12] Speaker 2: and then you know, they'd wrap us up in warm
[9:15] Speaker 2: clothes and take us to the church so that they
[9:16] Speaker 2: could have a late night you know, prayer meeting and
[9:20] Speaker 2: things like that, and it was it was just yeah,
[9:22] Speaker 2: it was a very involved Christian life. I obviously had
[9:26] Speaker 2: no other point of reference. So I grew up feeling like, Okay,
[9:29] Speaker 2: this is how it is, this is who God is,
[9:32] Speaker 2: and it was everything to me because I didn't know
[9:34] Speaker 2: anything else. And there was a lot of faith there,
[9:38] Speaker 2: but there was also a lot of fear there. And
[9:41] Speaker 2: in some ways, I'm like, what does faith mean without
[9:44] Speaker 2: being afforded any other perspective on what might be real? Right,
[9:48] Speaker 2: But with that being said, yeah, I strongly identified as
[9:50] Speaker 2: a Christian, and as I wrote in my book, and
[9:52] Speaker 2: it's kind of nauseating, but like I was like, I
[9:54] Speaker 2: don't believe in religion, I have a relationship with Jesus,
[10:00] Speaker 2: and so yeah, I had a really strong faith. But
[10:03] Speaker 2: that does render you a little bit more vulnerable in
[10:06] Speaker 2: some ways obviously than you know, coming into a group
[10:10] Speaker 2: being indoctrinated from the starting point of atheism for example.
[10:14] Speaker 1: Right totally.
[10:15] Speaker 4: I will also just point out that at this time
[10:19] Speaker 4: you were finding a lot more comfort in the other
[10:22] Speaker 4: realms maybe than the physical one. And there was just
[10:25] Speaker 4: some stuff with food that was going on that I
[10:27] Speaker 4: think is overarching in the story that I want to
[10:30] Speaker 4: touch on at the top.
[10:32] Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what was
[10:33] Speaker 1: going on there.
[10:34] Speaker 2: Absolutely. So at the time that I met the group,
[10:39] Speaker 2: I was eighteen and I had just finished year twelve,
[10:42] Speaker 2: which we call college over here.
[10:44] Speaker 1: When you say here you mean Australia, yes, correct, Yeah,
[10:48] Speaker 1: sorry for people who are people who don't know the accent, Okay, yeah.
[10:54] Speaker 2: Australia, yeah, Camera, Australia. So I it's the capital, but
[10:58] Speaker 2: a lot of people don't realize it the capital of
[11:00] Speaker 2: Australia because it's very quiet little city. But yeah, so
[11:04] Speaker 2: had finished school and I had in my last year
[11:08] Speaker 2: of school developed anarexia. So yeah, it was new to me. Obviously,
[11:14] Speaker 2: it was new to my mum. The people in my
[11:16] Speaker 2: life didn't necessarily know how to deal with it. No
[11:18] Speaker 2: one knows how to deal with with a needing disorder,
[11:21] Speaker 2: a mental illness, right, it's always just like you figure
[11:23] Speaker 2: it out as you go. But I'd had a challenging
[11:26] Speaker 2: year the year before, and yeah, I think that had
[11:30] Speaker 2: destabilized me in a lot of ways. But also the
[11:33] Speaker 2: way that our schooling system is and it's a weird
[11:36] Speaker 2: thing that's specific to Canberra, and I think one other
[11:38] Speaker 2: state in Australia is that we have years eleven and
[11:41] Speaker 2: twelve separate from all the other schooling years. So I
[11:45] Speaker 2: grew up in this very kind of small, sheltered Christian
[11:48] Speaker 2: school for most of my schooling years, you know, very
[11:51] Speaker 2: small classes about twenty six US. And then I was
[11:54] Speaker 2: plunged into a college for years eleven and twelve with
[11:59] Speaker 2: so so many it's in one grade. Shockingly, not everyone
[12:03] Speaker 2: was a Christian. In fact, most people weren't. It was
[12:05] Speaker 2: a really wild experience for me, and I actually loved
[12:08] Speaker 2: it because it was it really opened my mind to
[12:12] Speaker 2: how beautiful life outside of church could be, but also
[12:16] Speaker 2: like how rich and varied and how you could choose
[12:21] Speaker 2: your own adventure and it wasn't just this like cut
[12:24] Speaker 2: and dried conservative kind of bubble. And so I think
[12:27] Speaker 2: with that, I was incredibly insecure and I deeply, deeply
[12:32] Speaker 2: wanted to be liked by my peers, but I didn't
[12:34] Speaker 2: know how to fit in because I'd come from this
[12:36] Speaker 2: very sheltered background, and I think that really added to
[12:39] Speaker 2: my anxiety. And it was there were some toxic dynamics
[12:42] Speaker 2: going on with the friends that I'd grown up with,
[12:44] Speaker 2: and I think my way of coping with all of
[12:47] Speaker 2: that was to try and restrict or control something in
[12:52] Speaker 2: my life, and that happened to be my food and
[12:53] Speaker 2: taken my body and my exercise, and I didn't. It
[12:56] Speaker 2: wasn't like I was trying to be skinny. I wasn't
[12:59] Speaker 2: trying to you know, there's always something much deeper rooted
[13:01] Speaker 2: with eating disorders. But that was the year before and
[13:04] Speaker 2: then my mom and I kind of fumbled our way
[13:07] Speaker 2: through it together. We learned about it. She took me
[13:10] Speaker 2: to a dietician. I started, you know, learning how to
[13:13] Speaker 2: eat again, which is, you know, a very weird concept,
[13:17] Speaker 2: but that's what people with THETS go through. And then
[13:20] Speaker 2: I was really much much better by the time I
[13:22] Speaker 2: met the group, but I still wasn't necessarily well, yeah,
[13:26] Speaker 2: you were.
[13:26] Speaker 1: It was kind of a perfect storm.
[13:27] Speaker 4: Would this day when you go to my personal favorite
[13:30] Speaker 4: place on earth, Borders Bookstore.
[13:35] Speaker 2: Do you have a Borders.
[13:36] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, they're dead. They're all dead and gone
[13:39] Speaker 1: for years. My god, you guys. A moment of silence
[13:44] Speaker 1: rop bookstores. I know, tell us about that first encounter
[13:48] Speaker 1: and how you were approached.
[13:49] Speaker 2: So I was with a friend in Borders Bookstore and
[13:52] Speaker 2: we just caught up. It was my gap year. I
[13:54] Speaker 2: was thinking I'll just take a year off and I'll
[13:56] Speaker 2: work before I travel with some friends. And yeah, we
[14:00] Speaker 2: were just browsing window shopping, very casual hangout. As I
[14:04] Speaker 2: was coming out of the store, we were both exiting,
[14:07] Speaker 2: one of us was going to catch a bus, and
[14:09] Speaker 2: this lady kind of just pops out from behind one
[14:11] Speaker 2: of the security things and she's just right in front
[14:16] Speaker 2: of me.
[14:16] Speaker 1: Jump scared.
[14:17] Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, it was a little bit a really polite
[14:20] Speaker 2: jump scare. Yeah. And she was very friendly. She was
[14:25] Speaker 2: just really really nice, you know, but almost a little
[14:28] Speaker 2: bit too nice, you know, But that's how you that's
[14:31] Speaker 2: how you approach strangers when you're gonna ask them for
[14:32] Speaker 2: a favor. I suppose she introduced herself as an international student.
[14:37] Speaker 2: She was studying Australian culture at a university, and she
[14:41] Speaker 2: had a clipboard and a pen, and she said, you know,
[14:44] Speaker 2: would you mind filling out this survey for me and
[14:46] Speaker 2: helping me to add to my data set? And I
[14:49] Speaker 2: wanted to be helpful. And it's kind of that social
[14:52] Speaker 2: obligation thing. When someone brings that kind of thing on you,
[14:55] Speaker 2: you either say no thanks and you ignore them, or
[14:57] Speaker 2: you you help them. But at that point in my life,
[15:01] Speaker 2: I was very much. People pleasing tendencies want to tell
[15:03] Speaker 2: And I also like yea, and I really I respect
[15:07] Speaker 2: people who are bold enough to just ask for something
[15:10] Speaker 2: from a stranger honestly, like sure, yeah. Yeah.
[15:12] Speaker 4: I mean when I was nineteen, I could hardly get
[15:14] Speaker 4: anywhere because I'd just be signing everybody's petition, like being
[15:18] Speaker 4: like good. Now somebody comes up to me and I
[15:20] Speaker 4: just like drop kick their get away from me.
[15:24] Speaker 1: No, I still stop and I read the whole thing too.
[15:27] Speaker 4: I know, I know, yeah, I went through I went
[15:30] Speaker 4: the wrong direction. Why did think that she approached you
[15:33] Speaker 4: and not your friend?
[15:35] Speaker 2: I wish that there was a deep answer to this
[15:37] Speaker 2: that I could give you. But really, as we'll talk about,
[15:40] Speaker 2: I assume down the track, the nature of this group
[15:43] Speaker 2: is it's very predatory, and it's as I experienced it,
[15:47] Speaker 2: it's set up too, or it was at the time
[15:50] Speaker 2: in lunch part set up to groom women and a
[15:54] Speaker 2: specific type of woman. And I think I had the
[15:59] Speaker 2: lack of a better word, the look that they were
[16:02] Speaker 2: or he was going for. So I was obviously quite skinny.
[16:07] Speaker 2: It's all very pale, conventionally good looking, very young. I
[16:12] Speaker 2: mean we're both young, obviously but I just had a
[16:14] Speaker 2: different body type.
[16:16] Speaker 1: Right, and so you do it right? Did you do
[16:19] Speaker 1: the quiz initially?
[16:20] Speaker 2: Yeah?
[16:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, and she gets your contact and full.
[16:23] Speaker 2: The way it happened was it was just a bunch
[16:25] Speaker 2: of very basic questions and so it was like, you know,
[16:28] Speaker 2: what do you like to do in Australia, Like what
[16:30] Speaker 2: are your hobbies? They're probably about thirteen questions. Down at
[16:34] Speaker 2: the bottom were a couple of questions about religion, and
[16:37] Speaker 2: one was like, you know, are you religious? Next one
[16:39] Speaker 2: was if so, what religion? And I, you know, thought, oh,
[16:44] Speaker 2: it's an opportunity to share my fate and yeah, and
[16:49] Speaker 2: I wrote down I'm Christian, but I don't see it
[16:51] Speaker 2: as religion. And she took the pen and paperback from
[16:56] Speaker 2: me and she's looking at the clipboard. She kind of
[16:58] Speaker 2: skims it and then her eyes fall in the last question.
[17:02] Speaker 2: She goes, oh, you're a Christian and I was like, yeah,
[17:04] Speaker 2: I am. And she asked if I would fill out
[17:07] Speaker 2: another survey. She said, I'm also studying Australian faith and
[17:11] Speaker 2: I would love to know more about your faith. Could
[17:14] Speaker 2: I follow up with an email? Which you mind giving
[17:16] Speaker 2: your email address and I'll ask you a few questions
[17:19] Speaker 2: about your faith and being a very good Christian girl,
[17:22] Speaker 2: being trained to always share my faith at every opportunity.
[17:24] Speaker 1: I was like absolutely, like such a good tactic. Yeah, So,
[17:29] Speaker 1: I mean it's smart, you know, it is just a
[17:31] Speaker 1: few more questions, like it's no big deal, just ask yeah,
[17:35] Speaker 1: or just answer a few more exactly like.
[17:37] Speaker 2: You've already gotten this far, like it's you know, you
[17:39] Speaker 2: may as well. And also she gave me a bit
[17:41] Speaker 2: of an out, which was cool because I was like,
[17:43] Speaker 2: I don't have to fill out you know, a whole
[17:45] Speaker 2: other Saturday. I'm going somewhere. My friend, by the way,
[17:48] Speaker 2: is being completely ignored. It's just standing there awkwardly while
[17:51] Speaker 2: I have this interaction. And I was like, what, I
[17:55] Speaker 2: can just give him my email address and then I
[17:58] Speaker 2: can go in memory way and she'll follow up with
[18:01] Speaker 2: something like I don't need to talk to this person anymore.
[18:04] Speaker 1: Right, But that was very in Yeah, And there was
[18:07] Speaker 1: like a bit of a back and forth where you
[18:10] Speaker 1: kind of like someone else reaches out, you kind of
[18:12] Speaker 1: decide to stop engaging, but then can you kind of
[18:15] Speaker 1: walk us through that? Just briefly, it.
[18:17] Speaker 2: Was just a bunch of unfortunate coincidences that you know,
[18:20] Speaker 2: helped me kind of get indoctrinated into this group. But basically,
[18:24] Speaker 2: she emailed me back. I filled out the survey. She
[18:27] Speaker 2: gave me kind of an intense response. It was like, oh, wow,
[18:29] Speaker 2: your faith is so pure. These answers are beautiful faith
[18:33] Speaker 2: related answers. And part of me was like, oh, maybe
[18:37] Speaker 2: maybe that, you know, maybe my answers were really great.
[18:39] Speaker 2: And then there was another part of me that it's like,
[18:41] Speaker 2: she doesn't know me, this is weird, and it's fire email, right,
[18:44] Speaker 2: So it's very easy to just not respond and leave
[18:48] Speaker 2: it at that, and so that's what I chose to do. Eventually,
[18:51] Speaker 2: we had a couple more back and forth interactions, but
[18:54] Speaker 2: you know, I left it a long time between responses.
[18:56] Speaker 2: I didn't want to keep up the interaction. But then
[18:59] Speaker 2: I was on a diff all in my lunch break
[19:01] Speaker 2: and I worked in retail at the time, and I
[19:05] Speaker 2: I was browsing again, and all of a sudden, I
[19:08] Speaker 2: turn around and there is this very friendly lady who
[19:12] Speaker 2: wants to get me to do a survey for her.
[19:15] Speaker 2: And she's a student and she's studying Australian culture and
[19:18] Speaker 2: would I mind filling out some questions? And I was like, oh,
[19:21] Speaker 2: I know exactly what this is. I filmed this out before,
[19:24] Speaker 2: and so I told her that. I was like, great,
[19:26] Speaker 2: I don't have to do anything. I've already done this.
[19:28] Speaker 2: And she pasked my name, and then I told her
[19:32] Speaker 2: my name's Elizabeth, and immediately she was like, oh my god,
[19:35] Speaker 2: my friend told me about you. She said your answers
[19:37] Speaker 2: were amazing on the survey. It's like, whoa, this is
[19:41] Speaker 2: a lot. And again it was that part of me
[19:44] Speaker 2: that very insecure, like eighteen year old part of me
[19:46] Speaker 2: being like, oh my god, am I that Am I
[19:48] Speaker 2: that amazing?
[19:49] Speaker 1: I mean it would work on me now, by the way, Yeah, yeah,
[19:57] Speaker 1: it'd be fair latterie.
[19:58] Speaker 2: We'll take you everywhere.
[20:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, I get you went there, Yeah.
[20:02] Speaker 2: One hundred percent, Like have my credit card. But also
[20:06] Speaker 2: it was quite intense. But then there was this other
[20:08] Speaker 2: part of me that was like, I've ran into these
[20:10] Speaker 2: people twice now, and at that point in my life
[20:13] Speaker 2: as well, you know, I was kind of looking to
[20:17] Speaker 2: engage with my faith a bit more. I think I
[20:19] Speaker 2: had quite a deep sense of guilt because in my
[20:21] Speaker 2: last year in my school length I tried to break
[20:25] Speaker 2: out of the little bubble that I grew up in
[20:27] Speaker 2: and I became a drama kid, you know, made friends
[20:30] Speaker 2: with everybody, and it was really not what I was
[20:34] Speaker 2: used to and that was very overwhelming for me. But
[20:35] Speaker 2: it was also one of the best times that I'd
[20:37] Speaker 2: ever had drinking, partying, like all of the all of
[20:42] Speaker 2: the difficult teenage behaviors, clubbing, and aside from enjoying it,
[20:45] Speaker 2: there was also this part of me that was like,
[20:47] Speaker 2: this isn't aligned with my values. And in my gap year,
[20:51] Speaker 2: I was like, I really should try and take steps
[20:53] Speaker 2: to move towards my values again. And so I thought, gosh,
[20:57] Speaker 2: this is quite a coincidence. You know, run into this
[21:00] Speaker 2: women twice and they eventually shared that they were Christians too,
[21:05] Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, maybe this is a bit
[21:07] Speaker 2: of God trying to steer me towards people who will
[21:10] Speaker 2: help me in that journey, right. I think the illusion
[21:14] Speaker 2: of coincidence has a whole lot to do with feeling
[21:17] Speaker 2: like there's some kind of divine hand in this sort
[21:20] Speaker 2: of thing.
[21:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, coincidence is my gateway drug always.
[21:24] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[21:36] Speaker 1: Can you explain the modeling recruitment piece of it? When
[21:40] Speaker 1: did that come into play and what did they say?
[21:43] Speaker 2: It was so basically, Yes, I ended up getting to
[21:48] Speaker 2: know them, and it was a bit further down the
[21:49] Speaker 2: track after I'd started doing Bible studies with them that
[21:53] Speaker 2: I ended up being introduced to the fact that they
[21:55] Speaker 2: do modeling, and obviously talking about it now it's like, oh,
[21:59] Speaker 2: come on, like this is it's it's ridiculous. It sounds
[22:04] Speaker 2: so absurd, and especially knowing knowing the context now, it's
[22:08] Speaker 2: it's really really quite morbid. But basically, modeling was introduced
[22:13] Speaker 2: as this way of giving glory to God, just the
[22:16] Speaker 2: same as playing music for God or dancing for God
[22:21] Speaker 2: or whatever else you do for God. Everything you do
[22:24] Speaker 2: in life you can do for God. And I liked
[22:27] Speaker 2: that concept at the time. That appealed to.
[22:29] Speaker 1: Me, including being beautiful, just exhibiting your beauty that God gave.
[22:33] Speaker 2: You, Yeah, just existing.
[22:35] Speaker 4: Yeah, and the physical kind of matching the MMR. So
[22:39] Speaker 4: if you're outwardly beautiful, you're awardly beautiful.
[22:42] Speaker 1: So it's a gift. Yes, everyone knows that beautiful people
[22:46] Speaker 1: are the best neighbor. They're the closest to God. I'm
[22:53] Speaker 1: so close to God, all three of us we.
[22:57] Speaker 2: Were worn into this. Yeah, it's absolutely wild and it
[23:03] Speaker 2: really Oh God, it's it's almost embarrassing to talk about now,
[23:07] Speaker 2: you know that I that I bought some of that,
[23:09] Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, maybe you know again young naive.
[23:12] Speaker 2: And also by the time they introduced this to me,
[23:15] Speaker 2: I'd already started to kind of feeld trust in them.
[23:17] Speaker 2: And they're very careful to create an emotional and relational
[23:21] Speaker 2: dependence before they start telling you like weird shit, you
[23:23] Speaker 2: know what I mean.
[23:24] Speaker 1: Exactly I was gonna ask about that. Sorry to interact,
[23:27] Speaker 1: but not at all. You know, if you've already been
[23:29] Speaker 1: doing Bible study with them, like of course, you've then
[23:33] Speaker 1: developed a trust and a rapport and like, did they
[23:36] Speaker 1: was their love mombing? Did they make you feel special?
[23:39] Speaker 1: Like yeah, she's.
[23:41] Speaker 2: Nodding, oh oh yeah yeah. And I could tell as
[23:47] Speaker 2: we've talked, both of you get it. It's it's it's
[23:51] Speaker 2: like a drug, like being love bombs. I mean, this
[23:53] Speaker 2: is how this is how as we know, toxic one
[23:56] Speaker 2: on one narcissistic relationships happen, abusive relationships happen is a
[24:00] Speaker 2: big love bombing phase at the beginning, creating an emotional dependence.
[24:04] Speaker 2: And the way I like to break it down in
[24:06] Speaker 2: my book was it's actually a theory of change with
[24:09] Speaker 2: me that was originally developed to apply to organization. How
[24:13] Speaker 2: do you get your culture, your work culture to change,
[24:15] Speaker 2: how do you get people to be invested? And it's
[24:18] Speaker 2: been taken and applied to the context academically of cult
[24:23] Speaker 2: and how people are broken down and then rebuilt in
[24:28] Speaker 2: the way that the cult wants them to be ideologically
[24:31] Speaker 2: in terms of their identity everything. So there's unfreezing and
[24:35] Speaker 2: then there's change, and then there's refreezing, and the unfreezing
[24:38] Speaker 2: part is that destabilization, and so part of that is
[24:42] Speaker 2: the love bombing. And they were they absolutely treated me
[24:45] Speaker 2: like the sunshine out of my ass, Like they were
[24:48] Speaker 2: so kind, so sweet. And this is something that I
[24:52] Speaker 2: didn't want to lean too much into in my book,
[24:54] Speaker 2: but I think it might have came across the friendships
[24:57] Speaker 2: that I grew up with and the bubble that I
[24:59] Speaker 2: grew up in. It really wasn't a bubble where I
[25:02] Speaker 2: felt like I was necessarily like complimented or loved or
[25:07] Speaker 2: appreciated all. And I'm words of affirmation, girly, and yeah,
[25:12] Speaker 2: it was like so intoxicating to me that my little
[25:16] Speaker 2: insecure heart was getting all of this reassurance and all
[25:19] Speaker 2: of this love and you know, all of this kindness,
[25:22] Speaker 2: and I had this huge sense of belonging. And so
[25:25] Speaker 2: many people will describe the same experience. When you first
[25:28] Speaker 2: start being indoctrinated and recruited into a cult, it feels euphoric.
[25:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's all women too, right. Were there any
[25:36] Speaker 1: men you interacted with?
[25:37] Speaker 2: There were some that there weren't in the core group,
[25:40] Speaker 2: and I met them much later on, and it was
[25:42] Speaker 2: a little strange to me. I was like, why is
[25:43] Speaker 2: it only women? And becomes evident later why, But yeah,
[25:49] Speaker 2: it was mostly women. It felt like this really safe community.
[25:52] Speaker 2: And we studied the Bible together. We prayed together. I
[25:54] Speaker 2: mean the one is threatening about that.
[25:55] Speaker 4: That would get me for sure. You guys didn't pray together.
[25:58] Speaker 4: You prayed together for hours and hours and hours. And
[26:02] Speaker 4: you're not just reading the Bible. They're making the Bible
[26:05] Speaker 4: come alive for you. And it's making your old church
[26:08] Speaker 4: look like kid look like Chuck E Cheese looks like
[26:11] Speaker 4: Chuck E Cheese.
[26:13] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[26:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that you put that so well, it's so true.
[26:16] Speaker 2: It really started to make my old church feel completely juvenile.
[26:20] Speaker 2: Like when they first asked me to do the Bible studies.
[26:22] Speaker 2: I was like, yes, I've been wanting to do something
[26:24] Speaker 2: like this for a long time. They really exemplified the
[26:27] Speaker 2: values that they said they had. And it wasn't just
[26:30] Speaker 2: like on a Sunday they exemplified those values. It was
[26:32] Speaker 2: every day. They started telling me they would get up
[26:34] Speaker 2: early to pray. How just how early. They didn't disclose
[26:38] Speaker 2: to me at the beginning, but of course they talked
[26:40] Speaker 2: about Jesus and God like they were a really close
[26:43] Speaker 2: personal friend rather than almost like an abstract concept that's
[26:47] Speaker 2: there to help you if you're having a hard time.
[26:49] Speaker 2: And I loved that. I wanted to be like. I
[26:52] Speaker 2: was like, this is what I've been looking for, This
[26:54] Speaker 2: is what I was asking God to help me find.
[26:57] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, looking back now, it's easy for me,
[27:00] Speaker 4: and we have so many parallels in our lives. So
[27:02] Speaker 4: I'm talking about us both to be like, you just
[27:05] Speaker 4: needed some friends.
[27:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't.
[27:09] Speaker 1: Maybe a sorority would have been great or.
[27:11] Speaker 4: Like something, but this kind of like played into maybe
[27:15] Speaker 4: some underlying like O. C. D. Eating stuff and just
[27:19] Speaker 4: like control stuff. And now you're surrounded by these really
[27:22] Speaker 4: nice women and glory.
[27:25] Speaker 2: B Oh my god. I probably just needed to join
[27:28] Speaker 2: the local so tage.
[27:31] Speaker 1: Really when you said glory for a full second, I
[27:36] Speaker 1: was like, is that like CARDI B Like, who was that? She?
[27:41] Speaker 2: Who?
[27:42] Speaker 1: Okay? That is that is a good rapper name. I'm
[27:45] Speaker 1: just saying it is it sounds like maybe or from
[27:50] Speaker 1: what I remember from reading as well, maybe the hours
[27:54] Speaker 1: that you were getting up was kind of the first
[27:55] Speaker 1: thing that was like a little bit off tell us
[27:59] Speaker 1: about that.
[28:00] Speaker 2: So originally it was introduced to me as like, oh, well,
[28:04] Speaker 2: we all get up quite early to pray, and you know,
[28:07] Speaker 2: it's kind of this time where it's just you're dedicating
[28:10] Speaker 2: the first part of your data God, and that's really special.
[28:14] Speaker 2: You know, before the busyness of the world kicks in,
[28:16] Speaker 2: you're having this quiet moment with him and it's an
[28:19] Speaker 2: intentional effort. I was like, that sounds awesome. I'm going
[28:22] Speaker 2: to try it. And there was obviously a part of
[28:23] Speaker 2: me that was like, I want to impress these women.
[28:25] Speaker 2: I want to show them that I'm invested as well,
[28:28] Speaker 2: because I was that far along emotionally that I really yeah,
[28:31] Speaker 2: I wanted to show them that I could emulate their
[28:33] Speaker 2: behaviors and be a part of that group. They started
[28:36] Speaker 2: by saying, Oh, it's like five am that we normally
[28:38] Speaker 2: get up. That's what I'd recommend for you. It's like
[28:40] Speaker 2: I can, I can do that. So I started getting
[28:44] Speaker 2: up at five am to pray, and again I was
[28:47] Speaker 2: writing this kind of like spiritual emotional high with this group,
[28:53] Speaker 2: and everything felt inspiring to me. It was like the
[28:56] Speaker 2: world was just in additional color like HD. Everything was
[29:02] Speaker 2: just amazing. God's hand was in everything.
[29:04] Speaker 1: It's like being in love.
[29:06] Speaker 2: Yes, And that's what it felt like.
[29:07] Speaker 1: The infatuation phase totally, yeah, one hundred percent. You write
[29:11] Speaker 1: about how your friends were like you should get sleep,
[29:15] Speaker 1: like you should sleep actually, and like how did people
[29:19] Speaker 1: in your life react to some of these behavioral these
[29:22] Speaker 1: early behavioral changes.
[29:24] Speaker 2: They thought I was behaving oddly and I was, and
[29:26] Speaker 2: you know, and this is another thing, like when you
[29:28] Speaker 2: start getting indoctored by a group, your personality changes right
[29:32] Speaker 2: to fit in with that group. There are social norms
[29:34] Speaker 2: that you slowly absorb and started hearing to you. But
[29:37] Speaker 2: then when you're interacting with someone who's not part of
[29:39] Speaker 2: that group, they're like, what is going on? And so
[29:42] Speaker 2: I think they started to notice behavioral changes in me
[29:45] Speaker 2: at the beginning, and then when I told them about
[29:48] Speaker 2: me getting up early. I confided in a friend and
[29:51] Speaker 2: that this was at a point where I was a
[29:53] Speaker 2: bit bobbly in terms of getting to know these women.
[29:57] Speaker 2: I had moments where I was like, it wasn't all
[30:00] Speaker 2: like amazing and yes, I'm on board with everything. I
[30:02] Speaker 2: really did take time to think about things. They took
[30:05] Speaker 2: a lot of charactists strategically bring me around. They were
[30:08] Speaker 2: very careful about what they revealed to me and when.
[30:12] Speaker 2: But there were still moments where I was like, this
[30:15] Speaker 2: just feels a little bit much, you know, and I
[30:20] Speaker 2: don't know what's right or normal anymore because their social
[30:24] Speaker 2: norms are so divorced from these people's. But you know,
[30:27] Speaker 2: they're so committed to God. You know, that's what the
[30:30] Speaker 2: Bible says. It takes, you know, it's giving you all.
[30:33] Speaker 2: And so they carefully crafted this view of like other Christians.
[30:38] Speaker 2: To me, that was like these people, you know, they're
[30:41] Speaker 2: not that committed. They are kind of lukewarm and wishy washy,
[30:46] Speaker 2: and they'll act like Christians on Sunday and then they'll
[30:49] Speaker 2: have a completely different life all the other days. And
[30:52] Speaker 2: you know, is that the way you want to live?
[30:53] Speaker 2: So already I was kind of judging my old friends
[30:58] Speaker 2: and the old life and the old church, and so
[31:01] Speaker 2: I didn't really trust that what they had to say
[31:05] Speaker 2: about my experience with these women was accurate or whether
[31:09] Speaker 2: it was informed by just a lukewarm face. And they
[31:14] Speaker 2: really also they they made it seem like there was
[31:16] Speaker 2: satan and everything else.
[31:18] Speaker 1: Oh there was satan and everything. Yes, yeah, yeah, you
[31:21] Speaker 1: does that resonate with you, Megan, It all resonates with me.
[31:24] Speaker 4: I mean we did it. We did a podcast with
[31:27] Speaker 4: Carolyn Costin, who's an eating disorder specialist, and she was
[31:30] Speaker 4: talking about your I'm using quotations for people listening, You're
[31:33] Speaker 4: eating disorder voice and how it just like takes you
[31:36] Speaker 4: down this road where people no longer can talk to
[31:40] Speaker 4: you because the voice in your head says back, like
[31:43] Speaker 4: they don't understand, they're not held to a high enough standard.
[31:46] Speaker 4: They they're not disciplined, they're not disciplined, and they don't
[31:50] Speaker 4: get it, and they're now like like two d like
[31:54] Speaker 4: nothing they say can reach me.
[31:55] Speaker 1: And those are my safe people. So I need them
[31:58] Speaker 1: to be.
[31:59] Speaker 3: Batter not me worse right, Yes, yeah, oh my god, yes, no,
[32:06] Speaker 3: that is such a good way of putting it the
[32:08] Speaker 3: more you say, I'm like, I need to know more
[32:10] Speaker 3: about your.
[32:10] Speaker 4: Story, a voice of your stories. Really, Yeah, we're going
[32:14] Speaker 4: to hang out with you for sure someday, I hope so.
[32:17] Speaker 4: But yeah, it's really and your mom is like such
[32:20] Speaker 4: a wonderful person and you guys have this wonderful relationship
[32:23] Speaker 4: and she's just kind of in her world getting her
[32:26] Speaker 4: daughter out of this shaky physical condition, and you're coming
[32:30] Speaker 4: back around and then suddenly you're kind of disappearing all
[32:35] Speaker 4: the time and you don't you don't trust her the
[32:37] Speaker 4: same way anymore.
[32:38] Speaker 1: And that's heartbreaking. Oh, it's really hard to read.
[32:41] Speaker 2: It was. It was heartbreaking. Yeah, I became an absolute weirdo,
[32:45] Speaker 2: and you know, she's trying to figure out what is
[32:49] Speaker 2: going on, but I was. And it's wild because you know,
[32:53] Speaker 2: I think I put it in the book, the way
[32:55] Speaker 2: that people would describe experiencing someone coming from famous and
[32:59] Speaker 2: the same street for so many culting groups or high
[33:02] Speaker 2: control groups was that these people all had cheshire cat smiles,
[33:07] Speaker 2: which is a really eerie way of talking about you know,
[33:11] Speaker 2: but it's true, right, like me to.
[33:13] Speaker 1: Give us one oh lot, we won't put it on socials.
[33:19] Speaker 2: Kind of just like Dead Eyes.
[33:23] Speaker 1: The Dead Eyes, like the movie Smile Yeah, yeah, scary.
[33:29] Speaker 2: I love that movie.
[33:30] Speaker 1: The second the second one is really good.
[33:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, although I found like, sorry, I didn't get the
[33:37] Speaker 2: end of that. I was like, this is what am
[33:39] Speaker 2: I supposed to make of this? I like a nice
[33:41] Speaker 2: neat ending.
[33:44] Speaker 4: Drag that's a real it's dream like yeah, smile to
[33:49] Speaker 4: sponsored by Okay, So they have weird smiles and you're
[34:06] Speaker 4: kind of like in a for a lack of a
[34:08] Speaker 4: better word, manic episode, getting love by by these people,
[34:11] Speaker 4: just being like trying. People are like, yeah, let's meet
[34:14] Speaker 4: for a coffee, and you're like, Jesus would love this.
[34:17] Speaker 1: I'm making this up completely, but Jesus would love this chair,
[34:20] Speaker 1: you know what I mean?
[34:21] Speaker 4: Just everything spiritualized and like they're like, what the hell
[34:25] Speaker 4: are you talking about?
[34:26] Speaker 2: Oh my god? The chair thing absolutely on the money.
[34:29] Speaker 2: So like one of the things that was weird, like
[34:32] Speaker 2: when I first walked into their apartment, when I first
[34:34] Speaker 2: met up with them, the walls looked weirdly there and
[34:37] Speaker 2: I didn't know. I just thought, oh, they must have
[34:39] Speaker 2: just moved in. In reality, they had taken down all
[34:41] Speaker 2: of the pictures of like the Leader and all the
[34:44] Speaker 2: weird they called.
[34:46] Speaker 1: Oh my god, damn.
[34:49] Speaker 2: They were so careful to basically pretend that they were
[34:52] Speaker 2: these people that they weren't for months and months and months.
[34:55] Speaker 2: I just thought they're regular Christians.
[34:56] Speaker 1: Which they admitted to you later on. Yeah, they admitted
[35:01] Speaker 1: that they were hiding information from you on the show
[35:04] Speaker 1: later on. Yeah, actually this was all for you. Yeah,
[35:08] Speaker 1: so we get the story. It's very weird.
[35:12] Speaker 4: It hasn't already, but yeah, so yeah, you're like, oh,
[35:16] Speaker 4: all these walls are bare, they just have this really
[35:18] Speaker 4: sad Jesus picture hanging up, and but they lived together,
[35:23] Speaker 4: and that seemed like a safe place for you to Yeah.
[35:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah totally looking back, Yeah, probably questionable. But
[35:30] Speaker 2: it wasn't very good at picking up on those. And
[35:32] Speaker 2: I think also, like I was taught to respect elders,
[35:36] Speaker 2: respect people who are old. All these women were older
[35:38] Speaker 2: than me, respect people in the church, and trust people
[35:42] Speaker 2: in the church. Like, if you tell me you're a Christian,
[35:44] Speaker 2: that's already an understanding that we have that you're a
[35:47] Speaker 2: safe person. Right, That's certainly not how we see it nowadays.
[35:52] Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's also hard when it's women. It's hard
[35:54] Speaker 1: when it's women we're taught to have more suspicion or
[35:58] Speaker 1: trepidation about men. And when it's a group of older women, like,
[36:01] Speaker 1: that's a group of older women giving me attention. That's
[36:05] Speaker 1: all I want, all I want.
[36:08] Speaker 2: So there was always like this empty chair. No matter
[36:11] Speaker 2: what everyone was doing, there was an empty chair, you know,
[36:14] Speaker 2: whether it was like to the side or next to
[36:17] Speaker 2: everybody else. And later when the weird things were normal
[36:22] Speaker 2: to me, they were like, this is Jesus's chair, this
[36:24] Speaker 2: is where Jesus sits.
[36:25] Speaker 1: It's like one out for the homies, but leaving a
[36:29] Speaker 1: chair for Jesus.
[36:30] Speaker 4: While knowing me, I would walk in and sit in
[36:32] Speaker 4: that chair, I know, as you would like.
[36:35] Speaker 5: Yes, you're sitting on him.
[36:41] Speaker 1: Immediately kicked out. So how and when were you introduced
[36:46] Speaker 1: to the idea of pastor Joshua before you ever actually
[36:50] Speaker 1: you know, madam, Yeah, so that.
[36:53] Speaker 2: Was during the Bible studies. And the way that they
[36:55] Speaker 2: did it again really interesting, Like they would bring in
[36:58] Speaker 2: the person who they thought I need to relate to
[37:01] Speaker 2: the most, or who would they watched me really closely
[37:05] Speaker 2: and they'd be like, what's she ready for? Now? Who
[37:07] Speaker 2: would be best to deliver this one? This Bible study
[37:10] Speaker 2: to her like it was all very strategic, as I
[37:12] Speaker 2: would find out once I was fully in and they
[37:16] Speaker 2: started planting a little, you know, tidbits, little anecdotes about
[37:20] Speaker 2: this man called Pastor Joshua who was a Christian pastor
[37:23] Speaker 2: in South Korea, and they really looked up to and admired.
[37:26] Speaker 2: And that's as much as they would tell me about him.
[37:29] Speaker 2: But you know, at the beginning, I was like, oh wow,
[37:31] Speaker 2: he sounds like a really lovely person. You know, he
[37:33] Speaker 2: was giving things away to the poor, he was trying
[37:37] Speaker 2: to get closer to Jesus through prayer. And the anecdotes
[37:41] Speaker 2: started to get a little bit more unhinged, the feather
[37:44] Speaker 2: along we got. And I don't know if this is
[37:46] Speaker 2: true for US culture, but Australian culture very much like
[37:50] Speaker 2: we have this tall poppy syndrome kind of vibe going on.
[37:53] Speaker 2: So if anyone's like doing too much, we're like sit down, Like,
[38:00] Speaker 2: don't you get a big cared.
[38:01] Speaker 1: No, we do not have that in Amo. Yeah, yeah, total.
[38:07] Speaker 2: I was at that. We're kind of like, okay, it's
[38:08] Speaker 2: getting weird now and you're making all the rest of
[38:10] Speaker 2: us feel bad, so stop, all right. I don't know
[38:13] Speaker 2: what it is. But when I was hearing these stories
[38:15] Speaker 2: about this guy, I'm like, why is he doing so much?
[38:18] Speaker 2: Like there was this little part of it just like
[38:22] Speaker 2: he's too amazing exactly, my god, you're making all the
[38:29] Speaker 2: rest of us look bad. And the examples of what
[38:33] Speaker 2: he was doing were so out there towards the end
[38:36] Speaker 2: that I was like, what who is this guy? Like?
[38:39] Speaker 2: Why did they keep bringing him up? They were telling me,
[38:42] Speaker 2: you know, stories about how he went into a cave
[38:45] Speaker 2: and prayed for forty days to Jesus just to set
[38:50] Speaker 2: a condition, which I imagine we'll talk about later, to
[38:53] Speaker 2: show Jesus like how committed he was to seeing him
[38:57] Speaker 2: and to being closer to it. And I was just
[38:59] Speaker 2: praying that.
[39:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, I would be annoyed by that.
[39:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, ye fasting. Yeah, he didn't bring snacks nothing, He
[39:04] Speaker 2: wasn't even drinking water. No.
[39:06] Speaker 1: I would be like, one d.
[39:09] Speaker 2: I was like, I'm doing my best here, you know,
[39:11] Speaker 2: I why stop it? Like I was already getting up
[39:15] Speaker 2: at five am. It was taking everything. And this guy's
[39:18] Speaker 2: like hasn't stopped praying for forty days and forty nights,
[39:20] Speaker 2: hasn't had a sip of water, you know, defying all
[39:23] Speaker 2: the laws of like yeah, allegedly, and then they were
[39:27] Speaker 2: telling me about how he'd read the Bible like a
[39:29] Speaker 2: thousand times covered a cover.
[39:31] Speaker 1: Okay, should I.
[39:34] Speaker 2: You know what I mean? And I did. I did
[39:37] Speaker 2: calculate that later once, like years after I came out,
[39:40] Speaker 2: because I was like, it is a lot, right. I
[39:42] Speaker 2: think it was like something like thirty six straight years
[39:45] Speaker 2: of reading the Bible without sleep, food or water.
[39:48] Speaker 1: Wow, or any breaks absolutely.
[39:51] Speaker 2: Did not happen. It could be completely off, but it
[39:54] Speaker 2: was a lot of years of straight reading the Bible.
[39:57] Speaker 2: So yeah, and so I kept curing about and I
[40:01] Speaker 2: was really trying to be like, you know, because I
[40:02] Speaker 2: would say, oh, wow, that's a lot, and they're like, well,
[40:04] Speaker 2: you know, with God, anything's possible. I was like, fair,
[40:07] Speaker 2: that's fair. Yeah, that's so true. And so it's like
[40:11] Speaker 2: I have a bit more faith here. He sounds amazing.
[40:14] Speaker 2: I should really just be admiring this guy. But I
[40:17] Speaker 2: still don't know why it's only him that they're bringing
[40:20] Speaker 2: up right and throughout learning this Bible study series, which
[40:24] Speaker 2: you know, as it turns out, is a real strategic
[40:28] Speaker 2: course in I guess, facilitating the brainwashing or indoctrination process.
[40:35] Speaker 2: You know, it's slowly. At the beginning, the Bible studies
[40:37] Speaker 2: are very benign, but they're delivered really inspiringly. It gives
[40:41] Speaker 2: you a bit of it feels like there's like a
[40:43] Speaker 2: fresh angle of the Bible, but it's nothing blasphemous. If
[40:46] Speaker 2: you're used to, you know, growing up with the Bible
[40:48] Speaker 2: and you have experienced with it, it's like, oh, wow,
[40:50] Speaker 2: that's a really cool way of thinking about it. I
[40:52] Speaker 2: hadn't thought about that. But over time, it just slowly
[40:56] Speaker 2: shifts your perspective, you know, degree by degree, until you're
[41:02] Speaker 2: being told something absolutely wild. But the sense that I
[41:04] Speaker 2: had when I was moving through those Bible studies was
[41:07] Speaker 2: I was so excited to do the next one because
[41:09] Speaker 2: they were amazing, and you know, occasionally i'd be like, oh,
[41:13] Speaker 2: that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way, and
[41:16] Speaker 2: I would challenge it, but they would explain it so
[41:18] Speaker 2: well and they just had an answer for everything. And
[41:22] Speaker 2: so the sense I had, especially as I started to
[41:26] Speaker 2: grow closer to these women, spend more time with them,
[41:29] Speaker 2: become a little bit more indoctrinated, was that there was
[41:35] Speaker 2: some kind of secret that I couldn't quite grasp yet,
[41:39] Speaker 2: and I desperately wanted to know what it was, and
[41:42] Speaker 2: they were hinting towards something, and I felt like every
[41:46] Speaker 2: Bible study, we moved a little closer to it, and
[41:48] Speaker 2: there was this look in their eyes, like, well, tell
[41:51] Speaker 2: you the truth soon, and I it was like living
[41:54] Speaker 2: in a movie. I was like, what am I about
[41:56] Speaker 2: to find out?
[41:57] Speaker 1: So mysterious? I'm so serious? So anyway, can you tell
[42:02] Speaker 1: a little bit about setting conditions and what that was
[42:04] Speaker 1: looking like more and more in her life?
[42:06] Speaker 2: Yeah, So setting conditions it was actually first from memory.
[42:09] Speaker 2: It was first introduced to me when I was starting
[42:13] Speaker 2: to get up early to pray. So they were like,
[42:15] Speaker 2: there are conditions that we set to sort of demonstrate
[42:18] Speaker 2: to God that we're invested in this and we're putting
[42:21] Speaker 2: you first, you know. And the concept wasn't unfamiliar to me,
[42:25] Speaker 2: Like I'd grown up in a church where you know,
[42:28] Speaker 2: people would fast and pray quite regularly for extended periods
[42:33] Speaker 2: of time. Sometimes my father he fasted every Sunday ever
[42:38] Speaker 2: since the age of thirty up until about forty years later,
[42:42] Speaker 2: to you know, just so we could pick a prey.
[42:45] Speaker 2: And it was just a water fast every Sunday. And
[42:47] Speaker 2: I just grew up knowing that, and it's kind of honestly,
[42:50] Speaker 2: like the whole concept is a little messed up in general.
[42:54] Speaker 2: Really if you think about it, it's like, well, is
[42:56] Speaker 2: God going to be like, you know, she's she's praying,
[42:59] Speaker 2: but she she's not hungry at all, you know, like
[43:04] Speaker 2: she's not having a bad time.
[43:06] Speaker 4: Well, it's like torture yourself so that you're also feeling
[43:11] Speaker 4: the pain that, yes, Jesus felt.
[43:14] Speaker 1: I we pasted once a month in mainstream Mormonism. That
[43:17] Speaker 1: was very traditional one Sunday a month to make yourself
[43:21] Speaker 1: feel like what he felt or I can't remember exactly now,
[43:24] Speaker 1: but I think it was something like that. I think
[43:26] Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know if it was literally that,
[43:28] Speaker 1: but it was like to show your devotion and some capacity.
[43:32] Speaker 4: Yeah, and in this religion, you're you're trying to be
[43:35] Speaker 4: more like Christ's and God's wife, not his child, you know,
[43:42] Speaker 4: so you're not doing that dependent little like give me this,
[43:45] Speaker 4: give me that you're his partner who's like I will
[43:49] Speaker 4: carry this cross with you for lack of a better word,
[43:53] Speaker 4: because it's very literal.
[43:55] Speaker 2: Exactly it is, Yeah, it is, And you're right, like
[43:59] Speaker 2: the way that I learned down the track was you know,
[44:02] Speaker 2: this is why Christians average, quote unquote Christians are not
[44:08] Speaker 2: at the same level as we are. This is why
[44:10] Speaker 2: we have to sacrifice more. As I got to know
[44:12] Speaker 2: them better, I discovered like, yeah, they often do fast
[44:16] Speaker 2: and pray, but you know, they set conditions around anything.
[44:18] Speaker 2: They set conditions to read their Bible a certain amount
[44:21] Speaker 2: of time or certain amount of pages a day. They
[44:23] Speaker 2: set conditions to share their faith or talk to wasn't
[44:26] Speaker 2: sharing their faith, it was asking them to do a
[44:28] Speaker 2: survey a certain amount of people every day or every week.
[44:34] Speaker 2: They set conditions to get up at a certain time
[44:36] Speaker 2: to pray.
[44:37] Speaker 1: So it's just goals. It's just really ambitious, strict goals
[44:41] Speaker 1: to advance yourself and the religion basically.
[44:44] Speaker 2: Correct, Like, it really is just goal setting, and they
[44:46] Speaker 2: just rebranded it. But there was another element to it
[44:49] Speaker 2: where it was, like, like you mentioned, Megan, it was
[44:52] Speaker 2: to harm or cause discomfortable pain to yourself in order
[44:57] Speaker 2: to prove to God that you're devoted in and to
[45:00] Speaker 2: feel Jesus's pain.
[45:02] Speaker 1: And if you're not in pain, you're not being devoted enough. Basically,
[45:05] Speaker 1: if you're not suffering in some capacity, correct, yea, yes,
[45:09] Speaker 1: that's us super healthy, it's sick.
[45:12] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
[45:14] Speaker 1: I found it interesting that you had a trip to
[45:16] Speaker 1: England planned and this makes them really freak out. Can
[45:20] Speaker 1: you tell us why?
[45:21] Speaker 2: Yeah. So, part of the indoctrination process obviously involves a
[45:26] Speaker 2: really high degree of immersion, and so I was spending
[45:30] Speaker 2: more and more time with them. I was increasingly at
[45:32] Speaker 2: their house, praying with them, going to church services, you know,
[45:36] Speaker 2: doing the Bible studies, just have just hanging out. Like
[45:39] Speaker 2: I wanted to be around them more and more. They
[45:41] Speaker 2: were pulling me in a lot closer, and I think
[45:44] Speaker 2: that they were worried at the point that I was
[45:46] Speaker 2: at I hadn't learned enough that like I hadn't learned
[45:49] Speaker 2: the truth, the ultimate truth about their group. I wasn't
[45:52] Speaker 2: I don't think I was comfortably in from their perspective
[45:55] Speaker 2: that they felt like they could just let me go
[45:58] Speaker 2: out into the world and I wouldn't be potentially pulled
[46:03] Speaker 2: back into life, right.
[46:05] Speaker 1: And people are like telling you not to google this
[46:08] Speaker 1: church a lot, correct, and so they don't want you
[46:12] Speaker 1: accessing any outside information or outside perspectives at all, because
[46:17] Speaker 1: there's a lot of lies about our friend Joshua who
[46:22] Speaker 1: is according to them, according to them, meditating and fasting
[46:26] Speaker 1: all the time, and people are like persecuting him. So
[46:31] Speaker 1: there has been this ongoing process of like, despite not
[46:34] Speaker 1: living on a compound or anything, they are slowly isolating
[46:39] Speaker 1: you from your previous life and your family. And when
[46:42] Speaker 1: your mom expressed to you concern about the group with
[46:46] Speaker 1: some print outs tell us about what happened and how
[46:50] Speaker 1: people reacted in the group.
[46:52] Speaker 2: My mom and I were always incredibly closed, but they
[46:56] Speaker 2: slowly started to drive a witch between me and my mom,
[46:59] Speaker 2: and they use Bible versus to support it. There was
[47:02] Speaker 2: something along the lines of like Christ hasn't come to
[47:06] Speaker 2: bring peace but a sword. You know, it's a.
[47:08] Speaker 4: Separator against mother or daughter against veryper cult I was raised,
[47:13] Speaker 4: and that was like RV right, really.
[47:15] Speaker 2: Right, Oh you're familiar.
[47:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was yeah, And be like there's a
[47:21] Speaker 1: holy war and you're gonna have to be divided from
[47:22] Speaker 1: your loved ones basically in order.
[47:25] Speaker 4: To know human connection even compares to the one that
[47:28] Speaker 4: you have and those other realms.
[47:30] Speaker 1: So don't get too attached.
[47:33] Speaker 2: Absolutely, like there's this higher truth, and the more that
[47:36] Speaker 2: you're willing to separate yourself from the people that you
[47:39] Speaker 2: should according to the world quote unquote love, that they're
[47:43] Speaker 2: more devoted you are, and and that the higher you'll
[47:48] Speaker 2: go in your relationship with God, you know, the closer
[47:50] Speaker 2: you'll get to Him and fulfilling this you know, holy
[47:53] Speaker 2: divine purpose. And so yeah, there was that impressed upon me,
[47:58] Speaker 2: and there were a whole host of act but it
[48:00] Speaker 2: was also just like me slowly building trust in them
[48:03] Speaker 2: and them being the people who got to define what
[48:06] Speaker 2: faith was and meant. And by virtue of that fact,
[48:10] Speaker 2: you know, my mum wasn't anymore because she didn't have
[48:13] Speaker 2: that high truth that I had, right, So it was
[48:16] Speaker 2: hard for me because I was used to sharing everything
[48:19] Speaker 2: with her. When she tells this story from her perspective,
[48:22] Speaker 2: what it was like for her was she was always
[48:24] Speaker 2: used to us having a completely transparent, open relationship where
[48:27] Speaker 2: I would share everything with her and vice versa, you know,
[48:32] Speaker 2: and it took her a long time to realize that
[48:34] Speaker 2: I stopped telling the truth at some point. And you know,
[48:39] Speaker 2: it wasn't out of malusk, it was out of this.
[48:41] Speaker 2: She wouln't understand the times that I did try and
[48:45] Speaker 2: share things with her about what I was learning. She
[48:49] Speaker 2: she did kind of and rightly, so she got her
[48:52] Speaker 2: back up a little bit, you know, she was like,
[48:54] Speaker 2: what do you mean, why are they telling you this?
[48:56] Speaker 2: This is very intense, Like I'm seeing you go over
[48:58] Speaker 2: there all the time, full on, you know, why are
[49:02] Speaker 2: they so much better than your old church? Like what's
[49:04] Speaker 2: so different about them? And at a certain point I
[49:08] Speaker 2: was like, well, she just doesn't get it. And I
[49:09] Speaker 2: shared this with the group at the time and they
[49:14] Speaker 2: were like, look, it's really common because Satan will always
[49:19] Speaker 2: try to use those closest to you to get you
[49:21] Speaker 2: to stop pursuing what God wants you to pursue. That's
[49:25] Speaker 2: how he gets to you. And I was like, that
[49:28] Speaker 2: makes sense, I guess, because.
[49:30] Speaker 1: What a nightmare. What a nightmare.
[49:33] Speaker 4: So your mom handed you a bunch of papers that
[49:36] Speaker 4: was printed our evidence from the internet that like this
[49:40] Speaker 4: is a cult, and your immediate reaction was get that
[49:44] Speaker 4: away from me.
[49:45] Speaker 1: You ran away, lock the door.
[49:47] Speaker 4: It's also it's also such a matter for you, and
[49:49] Speaker 4: I just like locked the door and said, ye, stay
[49:51] Speaker 4: away from me. And that's when your family kind of
[49:55] Speaker 4: realizes we blast a group on her.
[49:57] Speaker 1: Yes, So then you have one single source of truth
[50:00] Speaker 1: once all of this outside contact is sort of cut off, Like, yes,
[50:04] Speaker 1: you're looking to them for the answers to everything. What
[50:07] Speaker 1: is what is the right way to show my faith?
[50:10] Speaker 1: What is the right way to eat? What is the
[50:12] Speaker 1: right way to time to wake up? What?
[50:14] Speaker 2: You know? Everything?
[50:15] Speaker 1: And that's when it starts, it seems from the outside,
[50:18] Speaker 1: that's the point at which the indoctrination becomes really fully strong,
[50:21] Speaker 1: once you're cut off from everyone in your old self.
[50:24] Speaker 2: Absolutely, once they succeed in breaking that sense of trust,
[50:28] Speaker 2: you know. And it's a long process, like it took months.
[50:31] Speaker 2: It took months and months, and I really struggled with
[50:34] Speaker 2: it at first because it was especially with Mom, because
[50:36] Speaker 2: I was like, I just missed being able to share
[50:38] Speaker 2: everything with her, but I can't and there's something more
[50:42] Speaker 2: important than me, so I have to be faithful to
[50:47] Speaker 2: what I'm learning. And yeah, it was really quite frightening.
[50:51] Speaker 2: Yeah I was only eighteen, you know, I mean.
[50:53] Speaker 1: And so they've done this whole They've laid the groundwork,
[50:57] Speaker 1: they've like built this foundation to give you the next
[51:01] Speaker 1: piece of information that if they had told you from
[51:04] Speaker 1: the beginning, you would have run away screaming no quiz.
[51:10] Speaker 4: Just straight up at the mall. Walked straight up to
[51:12] Speaker 4: you and said this bet.
[51:14] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[51:14] Speaker 1: But at this point now you're fully in You're you're
[51:17] Speaker 1: not looking to other people in your life for answers.
[51:20] Speaker 1: So now is the perfect time to tell you that
[51:23] Speaker 1: Pastor Joshua.
[51:24] Speaker 2: What was basically the messire of the Second Coming, he's Jesus.
[51:30] Speaker 2: He's essentially Yeah, he's Jesus V two like two point zero.
[51:35] Speaker 1: And he's alive in Korea, correct, in prison.
[51:40] Speaker 2: In prison. Not his fault, people just really mean.
[51:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, people are persecuting.
[51:46] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[51:46] Speaker 1: And not only was Pastor Joshua, he wasn't just in prison.
[51:50] Speaker 1: He was in prison because he'd been convicted of sexual assault.
[51:54] Speaker 1: And this is something they tell you and expect you
[51:57] Speaker 1: to be cool with immediately. And we are going to
[51:59] Speaker 1: leave part one here right now so we can get
[52:02] Speaker 1: into how you were chosen to potentially be a bride
[52:06] Speaker 1: of this man. Come back next week and hear the
[52:11] Speaker 1: craziness that is part two, as we learn more about
[52:14] Speaker 1: Pastor Joshua and his history and his claims and his
[52:17] Speaker 1: real name, Megan, the time has come to ask you
[52:20] Speaker 1: the question, would you join Jesus morning Star under these
[52:24] Speaker 1: same circumstances?
[52:25] Speaker 4: Well, it's ironic because once you hear part two, if
[52:30] Speaker 4: they would have just started me off with the secret,
[52:34] Speaker 4: I think I would have joined. I wouldn't have joined
[52:36] Speaker 4: the way Liz joined because it was very like really
[52:39] Speaker 4: long Bible studies and just slow burn type of things
[52:45] Speaker 4: that I'm too adhd to sit through.
[52:48] Speaker 2: M m.
[52:49] Speaker 4: But if they would have just thrown me into the
[52:52] Speaker 4: third act, I might be a little more inclined. And
[52:56] Speaker 4: you'll have to listen to part two to realize what
[52:59] Speaker 4: that actually is, all right.
[53:01] Speaker 1: I think in general, while a Bible study group is
[53:04] Speaker 1: not my particular area that I would be susceptible too,
[53:08] Speaker 1: I do think the group of women studying something together
[53:12] Speaker 1: would get me, especially it's like anything I'm interested in
[53:15] Speaker 1: a group of older women being like we can teach you. Look,
[53:18] Speaker 1: we're we're studying, we're exploring this topic together, and we're
[53:21] Speaker 1: diving in in a way you've never done before.
[53:23] Speaker 4: Like that's my fucking dream. So I would definitely be
[53:27] Speaker 4: getting cool friends. Totally there, I am. I'm in Yeah,
[53:31] Speaker 4: if I think about it that way, Yeah.
[53:34] Speaker 1: All right, we'll stay tuned next week to see where
[53:37] Speaker 1: it all goes.
[53:38] Speaker 4: Yes, grate us five stars too, and remember to follow
[53:43] Speaker 4: your gut, watch out for red flags, and never ever
[53:48] Speaker 4: trust me.
[53:49] Speaker 1: By This has been an exactly right production hosted by
[53:54] Speaker 1: me Lo La Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior
[53:57] Speaker 1: producer is Geehali. This episode was John Bradley.
[54:01] Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
[54:04] Speaker 4: is Patrick Kottner.
[54:06] Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly Ambert.
[54:08] Speaker 4: Church Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia
[54:12] Speaker 4: Hartstark and Danielle Kramer.
[54:13] Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast
[54:16] Speaker 1: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.
[54:18] Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,
[54:22] Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
[54:25] Speaker 1: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
[54:28] Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts

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