# Dr. Christine Marie - Undercover in a Cult Town: Taking Down False Prophet Sam Bateman

An episode of [Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1534370789), 1 Jul 2026, 1 h 21 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/f804eed6-dd2f-4bf9-ba37-b2de011a8b27/f330a719-f2b2-4983-ab0e-b479006d232a/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=462fb424-93c4-4e4b-8e00-b2de011a8b44

This week, Lola’s mom Dr. Christine Marie (and the podcast’s very first guest!) comes back on the show to talk about moving to FLDS town Short Creek, how she and Lola’s stepdad Tolga earned the trust of new self-proclaimed polygamist prophet Sam Bateman, and what else was going on behind the scenes of what’s in the Netflix docuseries Trust Me: The False Prophet. She’ll tell the girls about her frustrations with the speed of the case, what it was like going undercover with the FBI, the bravery of all of the women involved, and being there for the raid that finally landed him in prison for sexual abuse. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Trust Me? Do you trust me?
[0:04] Speaker 2: I ever lead you astray?
[0:06] Speaker 1: Trust This is the truth, the only truth.
[0:09] Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
[0:13] Speaker 3: welcome to trust Me. The podcast about colts, extreme belief
[0:18] Speaker 3: and manipulation from two trustees who've actually experienced it.
[0:23] Speaker 1: I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elisabeth and.
[0:26] Speaker 3: This week my mom, doctor Christine Marie and this podcast's
[0:31] Speaker 3: very first guest, years Ago, comes back on the show
[0:34] Speaker 3: to talk about how she moved to the FLDS town
[0:38] Speaker 3: Short Creek, how she and my stepdad Tolga, earned the
[0:41] Speaker 3: trust of the new self proclaimed polygamist prophet in town,
[0:44] Speaker 3: Sam Bateman, And she'll tell us what else was going
[0:47] Speaker 3: on behind the scenes in the town besides what you
[0:50] Speaker 3: can see in the Netflix docuseries Trust Me, the False Prophet.
[0:53] Speaker 3: No correlation except also kind of because she's my mom
[0:57] Speaker 3: and my song, isn't it.
[0:58] Speaker 4: She'll tell us about her frustrations with the speed of
[1:01] Speaker 4: the case, what it was like going undercover with the FBI,
[1:05] Speaker 4: the bravery of all of the women involved, and being
[1:08] Speaker 4: there for the raid that finally landed Sam Bateman in
[1:11] Speaker 4: prison for sexual abuse and probably some other charges.
[1:15] Speaker 3: I haven't been following, but I know there's some court
[1:16] Speaker 3: stuff going on all that and more so so soon,
[1:20] Speaker 3: so excited to have my mama back and to hear
[1:23] Speaker 3: about the crazy fucking shit she's been doing since her
[1:26] Speaker 3: last appearance on this podcast, Megan, before we jump in
[1:30] Speaker 3: with Mom, what's your cultiest thing.
[1:33] Speaker 1: Of the week.
[1:33] Speaker 4: Okay, So, there is a sect out of Hawaii called
[1:38] Speaker 4: the Science of Identity Foundation or SIF that I've never
[1:43] Speaker 4: really heard of, but it's making news right now.
[1:47] Speaker 1: It's run by.
[1:48] Speaker 4: This guy named Chris Butler, who everybody says controls the members' lives,
[1:53] Speaker 4: completely isolates them, has a ton of control over them.
[1:57] Speaker 4: And our former Director of National Intelligence, Tulci Gabbard has
[2:04] Speaker 4: apparently been a member her whole life, and so is
[2:09] Speaker 4: her family. And there's a Washington Post article titled Tulci Gabbard,
[2:13] Speaker 4: Her Guru and the Mysterious Messages that help shape her
[2:17] Speaker 4: political career. The article is written by John Swain, and
[2:21] Speaker 4: it's kind of a leak of all these memos of
[2:25] Speaker 4: the group telling her how to vote, also literally what
[2:30] Speaker 4: to say.
[2:30] Speaker 3: I mean, there are some instances of basically verbatim.
[2:35] Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's just another example of what we've been
[2:40] Speaker 4: talking about for so long, which is a lot of
[2:42] Speaker 4: these groups pushing their members into the political sphere because
[2:47] Speaker 4: they want more control. So she has resigned. But worth
[2:53] Speaker 4: noting never had heard of that group. Oddly I had
[2:57] Speaker 4: not either, but you know, there are endless cults. Yeah,
[3:00] Speaker 4: I think the implications for this are are kind of
[3:02] Speaker 4: wild because she has had a very prominent and powerful
[3:07] Speaker 4: political career that has been sort of confusing. She's like
[3:10] Speaker 4: changed political sides and no one really understood why. But
[3:14] Speaker 4: then apparently that, like if you look back through some
[3:16] Speaker 4: of these directives that she seemed to have gotten from
[3:19] Speaker 4: the leader, that might be the reason she's one of
[3:23] Speaker 4: the people being has been anointed to like guide policy
[3:27] Speaker 4: that suits the group potentially indeed allegedly allegedly. Yeah, so
[3:34] Speaker 4: I'm gonna stay on top of the story. Everybody, don't
[3:37] Speaker 4: even worry about it. I'm I'm on the case.
[3:41] Speaker 1: Updates to Began's on the case. What about you? What's
[3:45] Speaker 1: your cultiest thing of the week.
[3:47] Speaker 3: I came across this article when I was looking up
[3:50] Speaker 3: I guess we're gonna have on soon, And I happened
[3:53] Speaker 3: upon an article called distinctive Language reveals likely conspiracy community
[3:59] Speaker 3: users across five hundred million Reddit comments. This is on
[4:03] Speaker 3: phizz or phys dot org by Polytechnic University of Milan,
[4:08] Speaker 3: So anyway, basically, the article is talking about a study
[4:12] Speaker 3: that came out recently in which these researchers used psycholinguistic
[4:16] Speaker 3: analysis tools and AI models on five hundred million comments.
[4:21] Speaker 3: Their goal was to find out whether it was possible
[4:24] Speaker 3: to kind of identify users that were going to become
[4:27] Speaker 3: active in the conspiracy parts of Reddit using only their
[4:31] Speaker 3: language in mainstream contexts, and the results of this showed
[4:36] Speaker 3: they were using recognizable language with an average accuracy of
[4:40] Speaker 3: eighty seven percent, even years before they explicitly joined conspiracy
[4:44] Speaker 3: theory communities, which I thought was really interesting. It's not
[4:47] Speaker 3: that they're all using the same language. It's like community
[4:49] Speaker 3: by community the language changes slightly, but there are this
[4:54] Speaker 3: part I thought was maybe the most interesting. Among the
[4:56] Speaker 3: most recurring linguistic elements are a greater presence of anger, anxiety,
[5:02] Speaker 3: and references to conflict, illness, and death, as well as
[5:06] Speaker 3: more frequent use of aggressive or emotionally charged language. So
[5:09] Speaker 3: the people posting a lot about these sort of high
[5:13] Speaker 3: stress things and feelings and events using particular language, like
[5:18] Speaker 3: it was able to predict with a very accurate rate
[5:22] Speaker 3: whether they would ultimately go on to become conspiracy theorists. Well,
[5:25] Speaker 3: it's super super interesting to me. I mean, conspiracy theorists
[5:29] Speaker 3: is so broad.
[5:30] Speaker 4: Now, I feel like since so many conspiracies are like,
[5:33] Speaker 4: oh that was kind of real, what exactly.
[5:36] Speaker 3: Like they would participate in like conspiracy parts of Reddit
[5:40] Speaker 3: that were known to be sort of extremist, ah, not
[5:44] Speaker 3: rooted in science basically, like we're talking lizard literal lizard people. Uh,
[5:50] Speaker 3: you know, all of this sort of classic go to conspiracies,
[5:56] Speaker 3: people who use this particular identifiable language ended up in
[6:00] Speaker 3: those parts of the Internet, which to me is super fascinating.
[6:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't wait to read more about that. Yeah,
[6:05] Speaker 1: it's just you.
[6:06] Speaker 3: Know, I would hope that one day we would be
[6:09] Speaker 3: able to identify if somebody is like in a period
[6:12] Speaker 3: of their life where they are having stress and you know,
[6:16] Speaker 3: potentially like I don't know, maybe it's too minority report
[6:19] Speaker 3: to stopian but intervened, so you know, yeah, but that's
[6:23] Speaker 3: probably not possible anyway. Things to moll over, But now
[6:28] Speaker 3: I think we should probably moll over my mom's incredible
[6:31] Speaker 3: story and this work that she has been doing in
[6:33] Speaker 3: Short Creek. Uh here, welcome mom, Hi, welcome back six
[6:50] Speaker 3: years later to trust Me. Our first guest ever, Christine
[6:53] Speaker 3: Marie is back. She's back, and she's got a whole
[6:56] Speaker 3: new story to tell, that's for sure.
[7:00] Speaker 1: For sure. Thank you for coming back, Mama, my pleasure.
[7:05] Speaker 3: So for those who have not seen it yet, you
[7:07] Speaker 3: are here because the Netflix docuseries called trust Me the
[7:12] Speaker 3: False Prophet.
[7:12] Speaker 1: The False Prophet, Yes, oh okay.
[7:14] Speaker 3: The False Prophet centers around the work that you did
[7:18] Speaker 3: in this polygamous community in southern Utah and the border
[7:22] Speaker 3: town of Short Creek, and so last people heard from
[7:27] Speaker 3: you on this podcast, you walked us through the cult
[7:31] Speaker 3: leader that we both believed in the self proclaimed prophet
[7:33] Speaker 3: and how he separated us and the harrowing stuff that
[7:39] Speaker 3: you went through when you are on your own. And
[7:41] Speaker 3: people can go back and listen to that episode if
[7:44] Speaker 3: they are interested. But we're going to cut to the
[7:48] Speaker 3: part where you moved to Short Creek and can you
[7:52] Speaker 3: talk about why you first moved to Short Creek.
[7:54] Speaker 1: Yes, So, Tolga, my husband and we were living in
[7:59] Speaker 1: Las Vegas and I wanted to be helpful to people
[8:05] Speaker 1: who had gone through something similar to me. So I
[8:08] Speaker 1: was doing activism and advocacy anyway for survivors of human
[8:12] Speaker 1: trafficking and survivors of polygamist cults and so on.
[8:17] Speaker 3: Because like there were there were some young women who
[8:19] Speaker 3: had come to stay with you in Vegas coming out
[8:22] Speaker 3: of different cults, and so you guys had kind of
[8:25] Speaker 3: been involved in this work already.
[8:27] Speaker 1: Yeah, I was a pretty high profile anti polygamy activist
[8:31] Speaker 1: at that time. And after my personal experience that we
[8:34] Speaker 1: talked about on the first episode, I spent you know,
[8:38] Speaker 1: a good decade studying why my brain went offline, what
[8:42] Speaker 1: the hell happened to my critical thinking? And once I
[8:45] Speaker 1: understood that, I wanted to be able to turn that
[8:50] Speaker 1: knowledge into helping other people. So I had the opportunity
[8:54] Speaker 1: to move to this border town which is it's called
[8:57] Speaker 1: Short Creek. It's Hilldeo Utah, Colorado City, Arizona. It's the
[9:02] Speaker 1: hub of the FLDS, which are fundamental Mormons, and people
[9:08] Speaker 1: were starting to leave the church and I thought I
[9:10] Speaker 1: could help them understand what happened to them. So we
[9:12] Speaker 1: moved there.
[9:12] Speaker 3: And why did Even at the time, I was like,
[9:14] Speaker 3: you're moving where, Like, why why I actually moved there
[9:18] Speaker 3: as opposed to just.
[9:20] Speaker 1: Well, if you remember, I wanted a bigger house because
[9:25] Speaker 1: I wanted a house where I could take more people
[9:27] Speaker 1: in because my house was too swamp. And I had
[9:30] Speaker 1: the opportunity to buy Warren Jeff's mansion forty two bedrooms,
[9:36] Speaker 1: and I had to partner with somebody who had come
[9:38] Speaker 1: from the community. No, true, Oh my god, forty two bedrooms? Yes?
[9:44] Speaker 1: And how much was this going for? Three hundred and
[9:47] Speaker 1: fifty thousand? Oh my god? Yeah?
[9:50] Speaker 3: Wait, but which house is the real house?
[9:55] Speaker 1: Oh? That house?
[9:56] Speaker 3: Okay, spoiler, she did not buy this house. But okay, continuo,
[9:59] Speaker 3: I was approved to buy.
[10:00] Speaker 1: You have to be approved to buy something, I see,
[10:02] Speaker 1: and so but I wanted it so that I could
[10:05] Speaker 1: have people come in and we could do like like
[10:08] Speaker 1: healing retreats and so on. Yes, so that's why I
[10:11] Speaker 1: had to move there. I thought, Okay, now I'll be
[10:13] Speaker 1: in the community so that when when we get the house,
[10:16] Speaker 1: I could be right here. They closed on my deal
[10:19] Speaker 1: without including me. You had a whole plan in place.
[10:22] Speaker 3: We like did some filming around some of what this
[10:26] Speaker 3: idea was, which was to like basically create what do
[10:28] Speaker 3: you call it, like a sanctuary for.
[10:31] Speaker 4: People coming out that's almost rehabbing exactly.
[10:34] Speaker 1: However, at the time, I didn't understand what was happening
[10:38] Speaker 1: in the town, and when it occurred to me that
[10:43] Speaker 1: if I wanted to be able to help the FLDS,
[10:46] Speaker 1: I could not buy their profit's house. They would see
[10:49] Speaker 1: that as desecrating it. So by that time I realized
[10:52] Speaker 1: I have to walk away and take the loss.
[10:55] Speaker 3: And I also want to clarify when we say mansion,
[10:57] Speaker 3: this is the like I kind of want to paint
[10:59] Speaker 3: a picture of what the town is because it's not
[11:02] Speaker 3: like a Beverly Hills mansion. These are like basic, kind
[11:07] Speaker 3: of ugly houses in the town. There's a lot of
[11:09] Speaker 3: these houses because they were meant to house these giant families.
[11:13] Speaker 1: Right, it's not that.
[11:14] Speaker 4: They're ugly, it's just that they're kind of like quickly
[11:17] Speaker 4: built so that as many children as possible.
[11:20] Speaker 1: Well, they're more it's more utilitarian. Mostly it's practical. Yeah,
[11:24] Speaker 1: so it was a big house with all these bedrooms.
[11:26] Speaker 1: It was actually more than one house on the property.
[11:29] Speaker 1: But you know, it's all good now. I mean, I
[11:32] Speaker 1: have a house that I have people in and it
[11:35] Speaker 1: all worked out for the best. But that's why I
[11:37] Speaker 1: moved there. Yeah, I wanted to help them, but I
[11:40] Speaker 1: needed to be there. I just felt it, And even
[11:44] Speaker 1: though that didn't work out, other things did and that's
[11:47] Speaker 1: how I started to make a difference.
[11:50] Speaker 3: And so you're there and you start to notice. I mean,
[11:53] Speaker 3: the documentary touches on this, but for those who haven't seen,
[11:57] Speaker 3: you start to notice that there's I'm think going on
[12:00] Speaker 3: with that housing there.
[12:02] Speaker 1: Yes, I wasn't a fan of FLDS people because I
[12:06] Speaker 1: was very antipolygamy, so I assume that whenever they complained
[12:11] Speaker 1: about something that they were just playing the victim. But
[12:15] Speaker 1: when I saw with my own eyes that people were
[12:17] Speaker 1: being evicted from homes with the Texas fully paid that
[12:21] Speaker 1: had no mortgage, that seemed like a violation of civil
[12:24] Speaker 1: rights to me.
[12:25] Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember you talking about this the first time
[12:28] Speaker 4: you were on that These people in the town, they
[12:30] Speaker 4: had their homes, they owned them, they'd paid the mortgage,
[12:33] Speaker 4: they paid, they were up to date. But because they
[12:36] Speaker 4: were connected to this warn't Josh religion, they were being
[12:39] Speaker 4: kicked out of their homes that they owned, right.
[12:42] Speaker 1: It was because they needed to sign an occupancy agreement,
[12:47] Speaker 1: which is a legal thing you need to do, but
[12:50] Speaker 1: they thought it was a violation of their civil rights
[12:53] Speaker 1: because these homes were dedicated into this trust, a religious trust.
[13:00] Speaker 1: The state came took the religious purpose out of the
[13:02] Speaker 1: trust and said, now all of you got anybody can
[13:05] Speaker 1: get these homes. And in order for them to stay
[13:09] Speaker 1: in this home that they paid cash for and built,
[13:12] Speaker 1: they had to sign this paper that they felt was
[13:15] Speaker 1: a violation of their religion.
[13:17] Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense.
[13:18] Speaker 4: So people are getting kicked out because they don't want
[13:21] Speaker 4: to sign this piece of paper and you're witnessing it,
[13:24] Speaker 4: and there's a lot of families that are losing shelter.
[13:27] Speaker 1: Right and I wanted to find a work around. Why
[13:30] Speaker 1: should they have to leave their home just because they
[13:33] Speaker 1: still believe in Warren Jeffs. I mean, housing stability is
[13:37] Speaker 1: something everybody should have, especially if you have children. So
[13:40] Speaker 1: then I did create a work around, and I became
[13:43] Speaker 1: an intermediary between the flds so I could sign things
[13:47] Speaker 1: or help create things to enable them to stay in
[13:50] Speaker 1: their homes where they weren't violating their religion. So this
[13:52] Speaker 1: helped me get a foundation to be trusted by a
[13:57] Speaker 1: number of FLDS people.
[14:00] Speaker 3: Know more. I mean, and tell me if you think
[14:01] Speaker 3: this is interesting, But I want to know more about
[14:04] Speaker 3: the anti polygamy activism turn and like what you know,
[14:10] Speaker 3: what you were so against initially and why it flipped.
[14:14] Speaker 1: I assumed that my experience with my false prophet where
[14:20] Speaker 1: I actually had sort of pseudo sister wives, right, you know,
[14:25] Speaker 1: I thought these other women were designated to be my
[14:29] Speaker 1: sister wives. He sent me this email revelation thing about
[14:32] Speaker 1: how we would be, you know, a family in heaven
[14:35] Speaker 1: or something like that, although there was no ceremony or anything.
[14:39] Speaker 1: So I had this mindset that this woman's my future
[14:45] Speaker 1: sister wife. So I treated or liked my sister wife
[14:47] Speaker 1: and so on, even though we didn't live in the
[14:49] Speaker 1: same home. So when I got out of this experience,
[14:53] Speaker 1: I was really essentially rescued from this by one of
[14:59] Speaker 1: the accomplices, which I talked about earlier. So when that
[15:03] Speaker 1: happened and I started recovering, I started really deep diving
[15:08] Speaker 1: into how did I lose my critical thinking? How did
[15:12] Speaker 1: I believe any of this nonsense? How did I become Truman?
[15:15] Speaker 1: In the Truman Show where everybody around me was observing
[15:19] Speaker 1: reality and I was living in this fictional world and
[15:22] Speaker 1: everybody knew except me, and they allowed it, and you know,
[15:25] Speaker 1: I was just mind fucked. Can I say that? Yeah? Yeah,
[15:30] Speaker 1: and so you were yeah, yeah, it was rough. So
[15:34] Speaker 1: I thought that the answer was in the manipulation caused
[15:40] Speaker 1: by polygamy. I thought that's why it happened to me.
[15:43] Speaker 1: Even though I wasn't technically in polygamy.
[15:46] Speaker 2: My mind was, yeah, you were spiritually yes, yes, yes, yes,
[15:51] Speaker 2: and so and I will say, like most of us
[15:53] Speaker 2: probably only have experience of polygamy from Sister Wives and
[15:57] Speaker 2: Cody Brown.
[15:58] Speaker 1: You watch, yes, I haven't watched. Okay, so not.
[16:01] Speaker 4: The best reputation from the Brown family because you know,
[16:05] Speaker 4: he ends up marrying a very younger wife and then
[16:08] Speaker 4: all the rest of the wives get left behind essentially
[16:10] Speaker 4: and stolen from and there's not a lawsuit. So anyway,
[16:13] Speaker 4: when you say Sister Wives, my alarm bulls go off,
[16:16] Speaker 4: and you obviously were like, oh, this might be bad,
[16:18] Speaker 4: but then you kind of realize it's not totally.
[16:23] Speaker 1: When I was an anti polygamy activist, I actually went
[16:25] Speaker 1: on the Sister Wife show and debated the Brown family
[16:28] Speaker 1: and I was food yes at UNLV and I was
[16:34] Speaker 1: just vehemently against polygamy, and I had all these great reasons,
[16:38] Speaker 1: and what I really meant was coercive polygamy. I was
[16:45] Speaker 1: never against polyamory, you know, anything that's just people making
[16:50] Speaker 1: choices and not hurting anybody. That's really not what I
[16:52] Speaker 1: care about. But it was really the coersion, right, and
[16:56] Speaker 1: holding eternal salvation over somebody's head like that. And so
[17:02] Speaker 1: but when I was in the town, I got to
[17:07] Speaker 1: know some people who were living polygamy that have left
[17:10] Speaker 1: the fl FLDS church and that were in the FLDS church,
[17:14] Speaker 1: and they all they were all saying the same things.
[17:18] Speaker 1: I realize, even if I am against polygamy, which personally
[17:22] Speaker 1: I am, religiously coerced polygamy, Yes, I'm against that. But
[17:28] Speaker 1: I realized that I'm really not doing any good sitting
[17:33] Speaker 1: on my couch, being a couch warrior, screaming against polygamists,
[17:39] Speaker 1: attacking them and changing nothing, right, right, yeah right, you know,
[17:47] Speaker 1: And I'm not convincing them to leave it. I'm not
[17:52] Speaker 1: making a difference. I'm not helping them with their trauma.
[17:55] Speaker 1: And it just hit me I need to just stop
[17:59] Speaker 1: judging and start helping. And that is my stance. It's
[18:03] Speaker 1: not whether I believe in polygamy or not. It's just
[18:07] Speaker 1: that I put down my weapons of war and I
[18:09] Speaker 1: realized you cannot change minds.
[18:11] Speaker 2: With facts and at texts. Amen Clocket put that in
[18:18] Speaker 2: bold and under guys.
[18:21] Speaker 3: But that's such a like that lesson is so applicable
[18:24] Speaker 3: to everything in our world right now. Yes, it's true,
[18:28] Speaker 3: there's so many people who are so angry about so
[18:30] Speaker 3: many things, often justifiably, But sitting and being angry at
[18:34] Speaker 3: people online is like not what it really just chees nothing.
[18:38] Speaker 1: Oh, it's an epidemic. I mean even right now after
[18:44] Speaker 1: the documentary, which it just had an incredible worldwide positive response.
[18:50] Speaker 1: My former anti polygamy associates were so angry with me
[18:54] Speaker 1: when I stopped being anti polygamy and just started being
[18:58] Speaker 1: friends with people living polygamy that they started labeling me
[19:03] Speaker 1: pro polygamy, which is bullshit, and enabling child's sexual abuse,
[19:07] Speaker 1: which is bullshit. And they could not see the facts.
[19:12] Speaker 1: So our brains are weird in the same way I
[19:14] Speaker 1: could not see the facts when I was involved with
[19:16] Speaker 1: my profit. They cannot see the facts when it comes
[19:21] Speaker 1: to something that they are emotionally invested in. None of
[19:25] Speaker 1: just can just like politics, yeah, yeah, you know.
[19:29] Speaker 3: Yeah, once we've made up my mind, my mind, once
[19:32] Speaker 3: we've made up my mind, once we've made up our
[19:34] Speaker 3: minds who's good and who's bad, it's like, well, like
[19:38] Speaker 3: anything to maintain that cohesion in our worldview.
[19:42] Speaker 4: Yeah. It always surprises me how much we think we
[19:47] Speaker 4: are able to overcome that and ourselves and we're really.
[19:50] Speaker 3: Not, really not.
[19:52] Speaker 4: And you they are if we try, if we try,
[19:54] Speaker 4: But you said it perfectly. We're not wired too, It's
[19:57] Speaker 4: just not the way our brains are wired. So, whether
[20:00] Speaker 4: you're the smartest person in the world or Keith Ranieri,
[20:04] Speaker 4: whe they were Keith Ranieri Australia's Guinness Book of World
[20:08] Speaker 4: Record smartest man in the World because he made up
[20:11] Speaker 4: the questions for the test, or.
[20:14] Speaker 1: You know, the kindest person or the whatever.
[20:17] Speaker 4: Like, you just can't outdo your biology, which is that
[20:20] Speaker 4: we're humans and we think this way.
[20:22] Speaker 1: That's right.
[20:23] Speaker 2: We thought we are full of bias, chock full of it.
[20:27] Speaker 1: It's not that I became propolygamy. It's just that I
[20:32] Speaker 1: realized when I started actually talking to these people in
[20:37] Speaker 1: understanding the meaning that their lifestyle had to them contributed
[20:46] Speaker 1: some complexity to their decision making that, you know, judging
[20:53] Speaker 1: them for it wasn't going to help. Yeah, And so
[20:55] Speaker 1: I call this harm reduction. No matter where you are
[20:59] Speaker 1: on your journey, your spiritual journey, it's better to come
[21:05] Speaker 1: out of the other side less traumatized. Yeah. So, even
[21:08] Speaker 1: if I don't agree with anything, even if I can't
[21:12] Speaker 1: stand Cody Brown or his wives, or I mean just
[21:16] Speaker 1: bitching about him, isn't going to reduce the trauma against
[21:21] Speaker 1: them that they're experiencing from him or whatever. Yeah, can
[21:25] Speaker 1: you guys say that better?
[21:26] Speaker 4: Well, I relate a lot to what you're saying, because
[21:28] Speaker 4: a lot of people and the religion, the cult, the
[21:32] Speaker 4: whatever that I grew up in are very disappointed that
[21:35] Speaker 4: I still have a relationship with my family or with
[21:38] Speaker 4: people that continue to be a part of the truth
[21:40] Speaker 4: the way, the two by twos, whatever you want to
[21:42] Speaker 4: call it. And they think that those people should all
[21:45] Speaker 4: be cut off and that you know, I shouldn't speak
[21:48] Speaker 4: to them anymore, and blah blah, blah blah blah. But
[21:51] Speaker 4: I don't see any change coming from that whatsoever. So
[21:54] Speaker 4: I think it's just a conversation and decision that we
[21:58] Speaker 4: all have to make it's harmon duck.
[22:00] Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's ironic to expect that people should have
[22:05] Speaker 3: to cut people off because that's what the cults do.
[22:09] Speaker 3: That's called disconnection, and that's you know, called shunning. I
[22:13] Speaker 3: mean that's literally cult behavior. So why would we replicate
[22:17] Speaker 3: that in our exit from the group. That doesn't make
[22:19] Speaker 3: any sense.
[22:20] Speaker 1: And it doesn't make sense to cut people off if
[22:24] Speaker 1: you have even the slightest goal to help them someday.
[22:29] Speaker 1: I mean, it's coercion by you saying I'm only going
[22:34] Speaker 1: to have a relationship with you if you believe in
[22:38] Speaker 1: what I believe or if you walk the path I
[22:40] Speaker 1: want you to walk. Then it's like you're punishing them
[22:43] Speaker 1: by saying I'm not going to have a relationship with
[22:45] Speaker 1: you when you don't. So you're trying to, you know,
[22:47] Speaker 1: manipulate them with this, with this punishment, and I'm just
[22:51] Speaker 1: against all of that. Yeah, And you're doing the right thing.
[22:55] Speaker 1: That's right, And I learned from the best. I learned
[22:58] Speaker 1: from you.
[22:58] Speaker 4: I mean, you were one of the first people that
[22:59] Speaker 4: I spoke to that got through to me luckily about
[23:04] Speaker 4: all of the things that I am trying to do.
[23:08] Speaker 4: But I know you've gotten haters and hate for it,
[23:12] Speaker 4: which we won't go into because they don't deserve the space,
[23:15] Speaker 4: as we've talked about.
[23:16] Speaker 1: But you know, people don't.
[23:18] Speaker 4: People don't like it sometimes when you help people or
[23:21] Speaker 4: when you connect with people who are in abusive systems,
[23:24] Speaker 4: and because they think that's your stamp of approval on
[23:27] Speaker 4: the abusive system.
[23:28] Speaker 1: That's right, when it in fact, you may end up
[23:32] Speaker 1: being the only safe when they can come to in
[23:34] Speaker 1: their hour of need.
[23:35] Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, absolutely, I mean we've said this in so so,
[23:38] Speaker 3: so so many episodes at this point, like every occult
[23:40] Speaker 3: expert says it, like the best way that you can
[23:42] Speaker 3: help is to stay connected and so that they have
[23:45] Speaker 3: some connection to the outside world, because otherwise they're just
[23:48] Speaker 3: stuck in their closed system and completely isolated and have
[23:51] Speaker 3: no evidence that there are people on the outside that
[23:53] Speaker 3: are nice, unlike what their leader is telling them about
[23:56] Speaker 3: how everyone's evil.
[23:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, but there is so much external pressure on us
[24:00] Speaker 1: outsiders for having these relationships with people who are stigmatized
[24:09] Speaker 1: because of their decisions. It takes a lot of courage
[24:13] Speaker 1: to stand up for somebody that the world hates, right, yeah,
[24:19] Speaker 1: or your or your relevant group hates. So for you
[24:22] Speaker 1: to maintain your relationship with your family while you're getting
[24:27] Speaker 1: hate for it. I respect that.
[24:28] Speaker 4: Thank you, you taught it to me. So it's a
[24:32] Speaker 4: circle of life.
[24:45] Speaker 3: So you're in this town, you start making friends with
[24:48] Speaker 3: people and you're like, why was I so angry when
[24:51] Speaker 3: I could, you know, treat people with dignity. And then
[24:56] Speaker 3: you sort of, you know, develop some trusts in this
[24:59] Speaker 3: town because you are helping get people online, get kids
[25:06] Speaker 3: schooling online, get people fed, get people's you know, resources
[25:10] Speaker 3: that they didn't have before.
[25:12] Speaker 1: And so how did Sam Bateman first come into the picture.
[25:16] Speaker 1: He was introduced to us by an FLDS woman who
[25:20] Speaker 1: was a friend of ours, and he came over with
[25:23] Speaker 1: his wife and children, and he bore his testimony, shared
[25:27] Speaker 1: his story and verbalized his testimony like it was a
[25:32] Speaker 1: sword from heaven and does it do your viewers know
[25:35] Speaker 1: what testimony means, his story, his story of why he believes,
[25:40] Speaker 1: and all this faith promoting stuff, and it was just
[25:44] Speaker 1: a weapon. That's why we were like, Okay, so this
[25:48] Speaker 1: guy is really really zealous.
[25:50] Speaker 3: What do you mean? So basically he's like, I got
[25:53] Speaker 3: my faith from blah blah blah, and I feel the
[25:56] Speaker 3: fire of the Lord, like.
[25:58] Speaker 1: Let's know, he talked about how he went to every
[26:03] Speaker 1: day of the war in Jeff's trial and he saw
[26:06] Speaker 1: all the things, and even though he was tempted to
[26:10] Speaker 1: throw it all away, he had this spiritual experience and
[26:13] Speaker 1: it just made him stronger and so on.
[26:16] Speaker 3: Okay, but was he like charismaic and how No?
[26:21] Speaker 1: No, but he did recite a poem. So he recited
[26:25] Speaker 1: this long poem and he said that he wrote it
[26:28] Speaker 1: in one night, and Tokien and I were like, wow,
[26:32] Speaker 1: and were you really?
[26:34] Speaker 4: Yeah?
[26:35] Speaker 1: I mean the fact that he was and the fact
[26:40] Speaker 1: that even memorized it was amazing, Like, I haven't memorized
[26:44] Speaker 1: something that long in a while. Later, could I do
[26:46] Speaker 1: a spoiler? Yes, Later we learned that he spent weeks
[26:50] Speaker 1: memorizing it and months writing it, and he forgot because
[26:56] Speaker 1: he forgot, he forgot what he told us originally, and
[26:59] Speaker 1: then he told us a whole different story later.
[27:01] Speaker 3: Oh my god, that was really funny. A normal man
[27:05] Speaker 3: with a touch of poetry in him.
[27:07] Speaker 1: Yes, but that poetry was to be drawn upon it well,
[27:11] Speaker 1: depending on who he was talking to and which points
[27:14] Speaker 1: he wanted to make. So it was like a little
[27:17] Speaker 1: tool that he could use a little manipulation tool in
[27:19] Speaker 1: his toolbox.
[27:20] Speaker 3: So he's trying to prove like, I'm really smart, yeah,
[27:25] Speaker 3: and then memorizing, Yeah.
[27:26] Speaker 2: Well he's sensitive. He's a poem, he's a poet. He's
[27:29] Speaker 2: an artist.
[27:30] Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, but that's the only artistic thing I ever saw.
[27:33] Speaker 1: And for all I know, he didn't even write the poem.
[27:35] Speaker 4: No, I'm sure he didn't write that. He did, my
[27:38] Speaker 4: guys wrote the poem. Yeah, somebody else wrote that poem.
[27:43] Speaker 4: But I mean, okay, it's just it's so weird to
[27:46] Speaker 4: see who he was and then who he became.
[27:48] Speaker 1: Okay, So his wife divorced him because because he made
[27:56] Speaker 1: a pass on his daughter. Oh my god, he offered
[28:01] Speaker 1: her fifty dollars to not tell her mom, and he
[28:06] Speaker 1: wanted to have a baby with her. Oh my god,
[28:08] Speaker 1: when she was talking, oh this animal. Yeah. So she
[28:13] Speaker 1: got home from that trip with him, told her mother immediately, good,
[28:17] Speaker 1: and the mother filed a protective order, filed for divorce,
[28:21] Speaker 1: and got her and the rest of their family out
[28:24] Speaker 1: of there. WHOA when was that? That was about twenty eighteen,
[28:28] Speaker 1: oh or maybe early twenty nineteen. Okay, okay, So then
[28:32] Speaker 1: said you know about any of that, I just knew
[28:34] Speaker 1: they were getting divorced. Oh, and then she got a
[28:36] Speaker 1: protective order. But his side of the story was different. Well,
[28:40] Speaker 1: he's a broken man now totally like I thought he
[28:44] Speaker 1: might kill himself, and he had no money, was just
[28:49] Speaker 1: a loser in every way, and now no wife. Then
[28:52] Speaker 1: he disappears and around twenty twenty one he reappears with
[28:59] Speaker 1: a wife. Looks very young, but she was over eighteen.
[29:02] Speaker 1: I think she was twenty. And because the FLDS aren't
[29:06] Speaker 1: doing marriages, they're very shunned. He and his young wife
[29:10] Speaker 1: are very shunned, and so I'm nice to them. I
[29:14] Speaker 1: don't see anything wrong. He just got a new wife.
[29:17] Speaker 1: So then he leaves again. He comes back with two
[29:22] Speaker 1: car loads of wives. Two car loads, two car loads
[29:27] Speaker 1: of wives. A car load yeah what the size car
[29:31] Speaker 1: and two vs? So twelve maybe by that time it
[29:36] Speaker 1: was sixteen eighteen wives. I'm not sure.
[29:40] Speaker 4: And for people who haven't seen the Dock, please go
[29:42] Speaker 4: watch it because just seeing the people getting out of
[29:45] Speaker 4: the cars is one of the wildest experiences of my life.
[29:49] Speaker 4: Like somebody they'll just open a like suburban door and
[29:52] Speaker 4: it's like a like a I wanted to say circus
[29:54] Speaker 4: but that makes a clown car. It's like a clown car.
[29:56] Speaker 4: But that makes it sound nice and funny, but it's not.
[29:59] Speaker 4: But it's just like you're like twelve people come out
[30:02] Speaker 4: and you're like, well, that's as many people as could
[30:03] Speaker 4: possibly be in there.
[30:04] Speaker 3: But there's just more commented on it. I think in
[30:07] Speaker 3: the dock.
[30:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's so many. Yeah.
[30:11] Speaker 3: So after how how long was it between him having
[30:15] Speaker 3: this one new wife and him having two car loads
[30:17] Speaker 3: of wife?
[30:18] Speaker 1: It was maybe I'm really iffy on that. So he
[30:22] Speaker 1: had one wife and then he came came back with
[30:25] Speaker 1: her sister, so he had two wives, all right, but
[30:29] Speaker 1: he had no money. I invited them to come with
[30:33] Speaker 1: Token I on a photography trip to this ghost town
[30:35] Speaker 1: that I love called Grafton. And he sent me a
[30:37] Speaker 1: text and it said if that involves any money, we
[30:40] Speaker 1: can't go because I am so absolutely broke that I
[30:43] Speaker 1: couldn't even afford gas. And you know, I wrote back
[30:46] Speaker 1: and said, I mean, you can ride in our car,
[30:49] Speaker 1: you don't need gas. But he's so broke you can't
[30:51] Speaker 1: afford gas, right, got you? Then he comes back with
[30:53] Speaker 1: two car loads yep of women, wow, and children that
[31:01] Speaker 1: I thought were just the children of the women, and
[31:03] Speaker 1: they were the children of the women. But he has
[31:07] Speaker 1: two nice cars, he's got nice clothes, he's got all
[31:12] Speaker 1: these wives. Sam who didn't have ten dollars to his name.
[31:16] Speaker 1: He was failing as a rebar estimator. You know what
[31:20] Speaker 1: that is? Now when you build a house, Yeah, they
[31:23] Speaker 1: have these wire things come up to put in the walls.
[31:27] Speaker 1: That's called rebar. His job was estimating rebar. So you
[31:31] Speaker 1: just buil there's some rebar. That's all you had to do.
[31:34] Speaker 1: You had to figure out how much rebar goes into
[31:36] Speaker 1: this construction. Okay, he couldn't even He wasn't even doing that.
[31:39] Speaker 1: He had no money. He tried being an insurance salesman
[31:42] Speaker 1: and he failed at that too, So he was a mess.
[31:45] Speaker 1: Now he's the king of the world. Where where did the.
[31:49] Speaker 3: Money come from?
[31:50] Speaker 1: Who the money came from? His ability to convert a
[31:54] Speaker 1: couple of very key and successful FLDS men to his group.
[32:01] Speaker 1: Because remember when Warren Jeffs went to prison in two
[32:05] Speaker 1: thousand and six, there were no more marriages because he
[32:08] Speaker 1: was the only one that could perform marriages. So no
[32:11] Speaker 1: marriages and no babies.
[32:14] Speaker 4: So yeah, this community, that's whole purpose up to this
[32:17] Speaker 4: point had been babies.
[32:19] Speaker 1: Yeah, marriage and babies. Right, So two thousand and six,
[32:23] Speaker 1: since two thousand and six when George Bush was president
[32:26] Speaker 1: and Saddam Hussein was still alive. Wow, that's how long
[32:29] Speaker 1: it's been. Wow. So now Warren Jeffs had not communicated
[32:34] Speaker 1: in quite a while. So the FILDS people didn't know
[32:37] Speaker 1: what to do. They had no direction. They're used to
[32:39] Speaker 1: being led. So Sam seizes vacuum and says, here's my chance.
[32:46] Speaker 1: So he elevated himself by saying, I am the messenger
[32:51] Speaker 1: for Warren Jeffs. He's not really in prison. He's been translated,
[32:55] Speaker 1: so he's immortal, and he's speaking to me, and we're
[32:58] Speaker 1: starting marriages again. And if you fell, I mean you
[33:00] Speaker 1: can have babies again too, which means sex. They weren't
[33:04] Speaker 1: allowed to have sex, that's right, that's right.
[33:07] Speaker 3: So so of course you'd want to believe that, like
[33:09] Speaker 3: girls would want to believe it because they want babies,
[33:13] Speaker 3: so or sex or sex depending, you know. But in
[33:19] Speaker 3: the FLDS, you don't have sex unless it's for the
[33:21] Speaker 3: purpose of having a baby, right, So at any rate,
[33:25] Speaker 3: well that's what they say anyway, Yeah, yeah, I'm not
[33:29] Speaker 3: in the bedroom today, ye.
[33:30] Speaker 1: So yeah, So he had something that appealed to them.
[33:35] Speaker 1: He became an impostor so that he could play off,
[33:42] Speaker 1: or should I say, pray off the loyalty and the
[33:46] Speaker 1: love that they had for their profit. So he's now like,
[33:51] Speaker 1: if you loved and had loyalty to Warren Jeff's, I
[33:54] Speaker 1: am the guy that's gonna give you his messages and
[33:58] Speaker 1: let you move forward with your life. So he got
[34:00] Speaker 1: a few key families, just a few. Most FLDS wanted
[34:04] Speaker 1: nothing to do with him. The ninety five percent of
[34:07] Speaker 1: FLDS didn't buy it, maybe even ninety nine percent. There
[34:12] Speaker 1: was really only three big families that he was able
[34:14] Speaker 1: to recruit. But they had a lot of girls and
[34:17] Speaker 1: a lot of money.
[34:17] Speaker 3: And so can you just talk a little bit about
[34:21] Speaker 3: why and why those three families would believe him though,
[34:25] Speaker 3: like obviously there's incentive to but also culturally within this
[34:30] Speaker 3: like lineage of you know, lds, FLDS churches, like that
[34:36] Speaker 3: is how profits.
[34:37] Speaker 4: Are, oh right, I mean, if we take a brief
[34:42] Speaker 4: history lesson, Warren Jeffs was the son of the original prophet.
[34:45] Speaker 1: Was his name.
[34:46] Speaker 4: Ronan Rulin, Roland Rulin, Rulin. That should be Yeah, that's
[34:53] Speaker 4: a good name for a ruler. He was he was
[34:56] Speaker 4: the original prophet, and he was supposed to be immortal,
[34:58] Speaker 4: and then he died and Warren was like, just kidding,
[35:02] Speaker 4: I'm speaking for him now. So Warren already pulled off
[35:05] Speaker 4: this con well's a lot of a lot of people did.
[35:09] Speaker 1: I wouldn't call ruling an original profit because there was
[35:13] Speaker 1: a breakoff from the mainstream or matures in eighteen ninety
[35:17] Speaker 1: when they gave up polygamy and these people said, you know,
[35:20] Speaker 1: how can polygamy be required for eternal salvation? One week
[35:25] Speaker 1: you have to do this to be exalted, and then
[35:28] Speaker 1: the next week, for secular reasons they ban it. Well,
[35:32] Speaker 1: then how is that eternal?
[35:34] Speaker 3: Right?
[35:34] Speaker 1: So there was this big breakoff, and at the breakoff,
[35:38] Speaker 1: then there was a different hierarchy of profits that came down,
[35:43] Speaker 1: and that's how Short Creek ended up being a plural
[35:47] Speaker 1: community because it was like a place where people who
[35:51] Speaker 1: still believed in that could all be together. So there
[35:54] Speaker 1: are lots of profits a lot of the way.
[35:55] Speaker 3: Yeah, there's lots of lineage, like after Brigham Young.
[35:59] Speaker 4: Is that so there has to be a prophet And
[36:00] Speaker 4: it leaves room for somebody to be like and that's me.
[36:03] Speaker 3: Yes, just like how all of them were. That's how
[36:06] Speaker 3: all of them were designated. They were like self designated basically, right,
[36:10] Speaker 3: that's like, that's how Joseph Smith was designated as a prophet.
[36:14] Speaker 1: Well, it depends on what you believe. But they that's
[36:19] Speaker 1: the mainstream LDS church. It's the oldest person in the hut.
[36:25] Speaker 1: You know, it's not just you declare yourself. It's the
[36:29] Speaker 1: next senior person. Yes, in the mainstream church now.
[36:33] Speaker 3: But yeah, the origins of the church are such that
[36:35] Speaker 3: generally people didn't see these visions that Joseph Smith was having.
[36:38] Speaker 3: He was having them on his own, and yeah, you know,
[36:41] Speaker 3: a person or too would out for him, and that
[36:43] Speaker 3: was who everybody believed.
[36:45] Speaker 1: This was the prophet.
[36:45] Speaker 3: So it's not weird within with that history, true, that
[36:51] Speaker 3: that which is the same thing with the prophet that
[36:53] Speaker 3: we believed in. I mean, it's not odd given the
[36:55] Speaker 3: history of what defines a prophet.
[36:58] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, if it speaks for God, my friends,
[37:03] Speaker 1: if you want the real truth, you go to a
[37:05] Speaker 1: prophet because God speaks directly to him. And of course
[37:10] Speaker 1: I'm kidding, but that is what we believed. Yeah, and
[37:15] Speaker 1: many people believe so you don't have to do the thinking.
[37:19] Speaker 1: In fact, in the LDS Church, there's you know, a
[37:22] Speaker 1: website and on the website somewhere I found this article
[37:26] Speaker 1: on the Church approved Articles that says, you don't have
[37:31] Speaker 1: to think, we have done the thinking for you. Oh wow,
[37:35] Speaker 1: so that's what you know. That's how I was controlled
[37:38] Speaker 1: and manipulated. I thought, I'm going to trust the authorities.
[37:41] Speaker 1: Authority bias, and that's what they were looking for. The
[37:45] Speaker 1: people who ended up in the Samulite group wanted authority,
[37:49] Speaker 1: and I think the reason they had a vulnerability to
[37:51] Speaker 1: it is because when I think of the men that
[37:54] Speaker 1: he did recruit, they had been either sent away or
[38:00] Speaker 1: had committed adultery or something, which is the sin second
[38:06] Speaker 1: to murder. And Sam offered them forgiveness, right, and that
[38:13] Speaker 1: was a really big cookie. Yeah.
[38:17] Speaker 4: I would probably be like, oh, I can have a
[38:19] Speaker 4: community again and kids and a family, and all I
[38:22] Speaker 4: have to do is just kind of believe that this
[38:24] Speaker 4: guy might be right.
[38:25] Speaker 1: I could see myself leaning out to that totally. Yeah.
[38:28] Speaker 3: I mean like, yeah, not to get into how we
[38:32] Speaker 3: think again, but we like to believe we're making decisions
[38:34] Speaker 3: based on just like rational evidence. But the truth is
[38:36] Speaker 3: we choose our community based on incentives like that, whether
[38:40] Speaker 3: we're cognizant of it or not. So it makes sense.
[38:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, if the most important thing in your life is
[38:48] Speaker 1: getting back to God and you've messed up.
[38:52] Speaker 3: Well, also community, I mean you've talked about written about
[38:56] Speaker 3: this in your research too, Like you lose your community
[39:00] Speaker 3: and the like, that's you know, a traumatizing experiences you
[39:03] Speaker 3: completely isolated and often suicidal, and some on a new
[39:07] Speaker 3: community is being offered. Like that's gonna seem like a
[39:10] Speaker 3: you know, a ray of hope from the Lord.
[39:12] Speaker 1: Yeah. And so when Sam came around, and before him
[39:18] Speaker 1: Moroni Moroni was one of Sam's followers, but he might
[39:26] Speaker 1: have set the thing in motion in a way because
[39:31] Speaker 1: he found some writings that talked about how you don't
[39:36] Speaker 1: have to wait for the prophet to tell you to
[39:38] Speaker 1: do anything, you can do it make your own decisions.
[39:41] Speaker 1: Now that was like heresy, right, but it was in
[39:45] Speaker 1: the historical church writings, and he called it self determination.
[39:50] Speaker 1: Got to get Sam called it, called it that. Now
[39:53] Speaker 1: we should be saying, good job, Morona, Yes you can
[39:57] Speaker 1: think for yourself. You want to have a baby, with
[39:59] Speaker 1: your wife, you do it. That's what happened when he
[40:02] Speaker 1: started that. Then some girls self determined that they wanted
[40:06] Speaker 1: to be married to Morone, and he had a couple
[40:10] Speaker 1: of babies, but there was no prophet involved sealing them.
[40:14] Speaker 1: So Sam jumped in on it and somehow did a
[40:19] Speaker 1: leapfrog over Marone. And then with Sam, Morone was never
[40:24] Speaker 1: calling himself a prophet. Sam did. And now with Sam
[40:29] Speaker 1: being the prophet, now he took the wives that went
[40:35] Speaker 1: to Maroni, all the young, pretty wives but of age
[40:39] Speaker 1: at that point. Yes, yeah, and then started taking his
[40:43] Speaker 1: daughters and demanding them. It was and the same thing
[40:46] Speaker 1: with his other main believer.
[40:50] Speaker 3: Just for context for those who haven't seen the series,
[40:52] Speaker 3: MARONEI is one of the few men in the group
[40:56] Speaker 3: whose daughters were subjected. I mean he was involved in
[40:59] Speaker 3: the abuse, ye right, although Marona himself did not wasn't
[41:04] Speaker 3: with any underage people. He did not protect his children,
[41:09] Speaker 3: and when Sam demanded them as wives, he relinquished them.
[41:15] Speaker 3: So he's in prison for many years and.
[41:20] Speaker 1: He says, this is exactly where I need to be.
[41:25] Speaker 1: I deserve to be here. And he's the only one
[41:28] Speaker 1: of Sam's followers that has even expressed any accountability. So yeah,
[41:34] Speaker 1: he basically lost the rest of his life.
[41:38] Speaker 3: For Sam Bateman.
[41:39] Speaker 1: For Sam Bateman, of all people. Crazy, you can see
[41:41] Speaker 1: how it happened.
[41:42] Speaker 4: Like we said, you know, he wanted a community back
[41:45] Speaker 4: into a community, and it's very unfortunate that Sam Bateman
[41:49] Speaker 4: was the one who saw this opportunity to take everybody
[41:53] Speaker 4: down with him.
[41:55] Speaker 1: Yeah, and when he went to court one time, when
[41:59] Speaker 1: all of his wives and the people involved in the
[42:03] Speaker 1: case had all be in the same courtroom at one time,
[42:08] Speaker 1: he had the opportunity to say at least about his
[42:14] Speaker 1: wives that committed crimes for him, They're not to blame.
[42:19] Speaker 1: I made them do it. It's me. Put it all
[42:23] Speaker 1: on me. But he didn't, you know, it was just
[42:26] Speaker 1: the coward that he always is and tried to act
[42:30] Speaker 1: as if he was innocent and didn't do anything to
[42:35] Speaker 1: make amends or try to lessen the impact of being
[42:39] Speaker 1: in prison on these young mothers. Right.
[42:43] Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know if the normal lay person can
[42:47] Speaker 4: really understand how much churches really demand that women obey
[42:52] Speaker 4: their husbands to a very real world.
[42:56] Speaker 3: Extent, fundamentalist ones in particular.
[42:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, and in this case, if you did not follow
[43:06] Speaker 1: along with what Sam said, there was a real threat
[43:10] Speaker 1: that you might suffer physical harm and what does that mean.
[43:15] Speaker 1: So he was teaching this concept called blood atonement. When
[43:20] Speaker 1: Jesus died on the cross and had his blood spilled,
[43:25] Speaker 1: that was supposed to cover all the sins of the world.
[43:30] Speaker 1: Blood atonement is a fun amount of Mormon belief that
[43:34] Speaker 1: Jesus's sacrifice did not cover all the sins. There are
[43:38] Speaker 1: some things that you can do where you have to
[43:41] Speaker 1: spol your own blood. You have to die by this
[43:43] Speaker 1: shedding of your own blood so that you will then
[43:46] Speaker 1: go to the highest degree of heaven and you can
[43:49] Speaker 1: still have a natural family and all that. So he
[43:52] Speaker 1: was teaching blood atonement. It was portrayed as an act
[43:56] Speaker 1: of kindness, so in other.
[43:57] Speaker 4: Words, murder mm hmm, of like, you don't obey me,
[44:01] Speaker 4: you might have to do something, that's right, blood atonement
[44:03] Speaker 4: on yourself.
[44:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't do yourself, but you submit to it
[44:08] Speaker 1: or or it will be put upon you. That is
[44:11] Speaker 1: so scary.
[44:12] Speaker 3: It's so scary.
[44:13] Speaker 1: Teaching it all the time.
[44:14] Speaker 3: And hasn't blood atonement been actually enacted in other fundamentalist
[44:19] Speaker 3: Mormon girl, Yes, it has. Yeah, there's not really a
[44:23] Speaker 3: history of it in the FLDS. But there's so many
[44:25] Speaker 3: fundamentalists Mormon offshoots that we.
[44:29] Speaker 2: Would never like a gun cross but like you're slitting
[44:34] Speaker 2: your throat or like the blood would happen.
[44:37] Speaker 3: Yeah, but maybe the one group though there were it
[44:40] Speaker 3: was guns, It wasn't it, Yeah.
[44:42] Speaker 1: I believe So you mean little barons.
[44:43] Speaker 3: The little barons. Yeah, I think they were just using
[44:46] Speaker 3: it because I don't want the guy just wanted to
[44:47] Speaker 3: kill his enemies. But yeah, but that was the justification,
[44:51] Speaker 3: was blood atonement.
[44:51] Speaker 1: Yeah. So he's teaching this and he we got video
[44:55] Speaker 1: of him teaching this, and I asked him, who allifies
[45:00] Speaker 1: for blooded toone me? Because this is a scary shit, Yeah,
[45:03] Speaker 1: you know, And he looks at me straight in the
[45:06] Speaker 1: eyes and he says, anybody who knowingly goes against the prophet?
[45:12] Speaker 3: And that's him that.
[45:16] Speaker 1: Goes like, but guess what all his wives know this,
[45:25] Speaker 1: he's been teaching this. Do they dare not do the
[45:29] Speaker 1: things he requires of them? Do they dare not you know,
[45:33] Speaker 1: hide evidence or not up the girls? You know?
[45:37] Speaker 3: I mean. And that's on top of just like the
[45:39] Speaker 3: baseline coercion that's there, which is more along the lines
[45:42] Speaker 3: of of you know what you experienced, which is your
[45:45] Speaker 3: eternal salvation being threatened, and that itself is so powerful, Yeah,
[45:51] Speaker 3: because like that's that's forever, that's Heaven, that's forever, that's being,
[45:56] Speaker 3: you know, suffering for all of eternity. Like that's already
[45:59] Speaker 3: so powerful on its own and has kept so many
[46:04] Speaker 3: people in course of situations that they never would be
[46:07] Speaker 3: an otherwise if they didn't believe this like terrifying thing
[46:09] Speaker 3: about the afterlife. But then on top of that, yeah,
[46:12] Speaker 3: there's the physical realm threat, which I mean, it's just
[46:16] Speaker 3: like another level of coersion that I can't imagine.
[46:20] Speaker 1: Just quick side note, Toga and I started filming like
[46:27] Speaker 1: some archival footage for the FLDS, and we're thinking about
[46:31] Speaker 1: doing a documentary just on the FLDS. It would take
[46:35] Speaker 1: away maybe some of the stigma and help them be
[46:37] Speaker 1: less traumatized. We didn't really know, we're not really documentarians,
[46:42] Speaker 1: but we were filming and hoped to make it into
[46:44] Speaker 1: a documentary. Then Sam saw some of the clips that
[46:47] Speaker 1: Toga had made. He wanted to be filmed and I
[46:50] Speaker 1: was like, no way, no way, we're not platform ringing
[46:53] Speaker 1: this guy. This is before I knew anything right, but
[46:56] Speaker 1: he still was not being an FLD guy. He was
[47:01] Speaker 1: off on his own. Then as we started to learn
[47:05] Speaker 1: more crazy stuff, we realized if we film him, we
[47:10] Speaker 1: might get something, we might get some evidence. That's so
[47:13] Speaker 1: we start filming all this stuff. So that's why we
[47:16] Speaker 1: have footage of him talking about blood atonement. He was
[47:20] Speaker 1: actually planning and trying to involve some family members and
[47:27] Speaker 1: killing Morone and Lud. I'm surprised he didn't. I'm surprised
[47:32] Speaker 1: that that didn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. It was a very
[47:35] Speaker 1: scary situation because then Moron I goes missing. He went
[47:40] Speaker 1: missing for days, and the FBI was about to put
[47:46] Speaker 1: out an APB on him and have people searching for
[47:48] Speaker 1: him because we thought, oh no, oh no, we didn't
[47:51] Speaker 1: once you were already working with the ACE, I was
[47:54] Speaker 1: working with him. I'm dumping the gun side.
[47:55] Speaker 3: I do remember where was he worried about Marona I Am.
[47:59] Speaker 1: It was in Phoenix and he was forced to write
[48:01] Speaker 1: a confession. So you wrote this big confession of things
[48:04] Speaker 1: that he didn't do. But that's kind of what they do, right,
[48:08] Speaker 1: They want confessions, and even if they're not really like
[48:11] Speaker 1: I through Nary did.
[48:11] Speaker 4: The same thing. I was just thinking of wait, what
[48:14] Speaker 4: you called the collateral? Collateral? Yeah, confessions of things? You
[48:18] Speaker 4: haven't done that Blackmaileo. Yeah, he was doing it for Sam.
[48:22] Speaker 1: Yeah, Sam.
[48:25] Speaker 3: In Phoenix for some reason.
[48:26] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we for some reason. We don't know why.
[48:29] Speaker 1: All right, so you guys start filming. Yeah, So it
[48:34] Speaker 1: turns out Sam seems to be a narcissist and wants
[48:37] Speaker 1: to be filmed all the time.
[48:40] Speaker 3: It's so funny to me, Like there's the fact that
[48:43] Speaker 3: there are I feel like there's a good amount of
[48:45] Speaker 3: we've had on a good amount of people whose leaders
[48:47] Speaker 3: just desperately wanted everything to be documented, and it's like,
[48:51] Speaker 3: you know, this doesn't go well for you if you
[48:53] Speaker 3: if someone sees this, right, like the Sarah Lawrence guy
[48:57] Speaker 3: filming everything. Yeah, it's so crazy to me. Every time,
[49:02] Speaker 3: I'm like, are you sure?
[49:04] Speaker 1: I know? I mean he was calling us and his
[49:08] Speaker 1: wives were calling us, and they were coming to our
[49:11] Speaker 1: house to be filmed. So they were like throwing themselves
[49:15] Speaker 1: in front of the camera. And so if there's any
[49:17] Speaker 1: question about whether they consented, the answer is yes, yes, yes,
[49:21] Speaker 1: and yes. So we just filmed everything and kept turning
[49:26] Speaker 1: it into law enforcement. Not even deciding whether it was
[49:29] Speaker 1: evidence or not. We just turned everything in the minute
[49:32] Speaker 1: we got it, you know, we turned it in, but
[49:34] Speaker 1: law enforcement didn't seem to care.
[49:37] Speaker 4: That's one of the saddest parts of this story. And
[49:40] Speaker 4: if you hadn't have kept going, yeah, I.
[49:43] Speaker 3: Mean, you made a presentation at some point, right, Can
[49:47] Speaker 3: you talk about the presentation.
[49:48] Speaker 1: I was very frustrated that when I had an audio
[49:53] Speaker 1: recording of Sam confessing ritualistic sexual abuse that he forced
[49:59] Speaker 1: three of his wives to participate in, one of whom
[50:02] Speaker 1: was a child. I had that. I got that audio
[50:07] Speaker 1: and the victims were right there on the audio talking
[50:12] Speaker 1: about how, you know, how they felt when it happened.
[50:15] Speaker 1: So we have the victims and the perpetrator, and they
[50:19] Speaker 1: didn't even listen to it for like a couple months later.
[50:25] Speaker 1: Then they didn't do anything on it. So I was
[50:27] Speaker 1: quite determined that we move this thing forward. To say
[50:33] Speaker 1: that I was frustrated is an understatement. And so finally
[50:37] Speaker 1: the officer calls me and says, you're gonna be happy
[50:40] Speaker 1: about something. Can you come and meet with this interstate
[50:43] Speaker 1: committee of law enforcement people talk about Sam Bateman. It's
[50:47] Speaker 1: like hell yeah, So I go there. I actually do
[50:50] Speaker 1: a PowerPoint presentation. We have people from Uta, have people
[50:53] Speaker 1: from Arizona. Why are they making an interstate task force
[50:56] Speaker 1: when I've been asking for the FBI to be involved. Right,
[51:01] Speaker 1: the FBI does the interstate stuff, but they wanted to
[51:03] Speaker 1: do their own thing, I guess. So I do the presentation.
[51:09] Speaker 1: Then they have a meeting down in Phoenix with the
[51:12] Speaker 1: FBI sometime later. I don't know three weeks.
[51:15] Speaker 3: What's in the presentation, just briefly.
[51:17] Speaker 1: Okay, So I show the pictures of everybody. I have
[51:21] Speaker 1: bullet points of what is happening, what I know, what
[51:25] Speaker 1: was said in the tape, things like that there was
[51:28] Speaker 1: proof of.
[51:30] Speaker 3: Its full pitch deck for it was explaining how there
[51:33] Speaker 3: was child sexual abuse.
[51:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, like I am doing my job.
[51:37] Speaker 4: Here's the child's sexual abuse. Here it is on a PowerPoint. Yes,
[51:40] Speaker 4: here is where he lives. Here, where they live, and
[51:43] Speaker 4: let's all go there. What my expectation would be is
[51:46] Speaker 4: let's get it in the cop cars.
[51:47] Speaker 1: Wooe wooie wooie. That's the sound of the alarm, and
[51:49] Speaker 1: we'll go arrest them. Yes, it's I just showed it
[51:52] Speaker 1: to you.
[51:53] Speaker 4: And I've had the same kind of experience with my
[51:56] Speaker 4: own group, Like, it doesn't work that way. It's a
[51:58] Speaker 4: very long process of getting these people arrested, so.
[52:03] Speaker 1: You get to go to the FBI.
[52:05] Speaker 3: I mean, I just want to like mention like or
[52:09] Speaker 3: I guess more ask like you know, having having done
[52:13] Speaker 3: dirry duty a couple of times, like, you do need
[52:16] Speaker 3: a good amount of evidence to secure a conviction. So
[52:20] Speaker 3: was it like was it that a confession wasn't enough
[52:24] Speaker 3: because it needed more corroboration?
[52:26] Speaker 1: Like what were they saying? They needed a victim willing
[52:29] Speaker 1: to come forward? Okay, And to be fair, I've heard
[52:33] Speaker 1: that from other police departments too, that if they don't
[52:36] Speaker 1: have a victim willing to come forward, they're not going
[52:39] Speaker 1: to proceed with it. So even though there were victims
[52:41] Speaker 1: on the tape, if they still believed in him and
[52:44] Speaker 1: would lie for him, they that's right.
[52:47] Speaker 3: Like you get him to court and they just say
[52:48] Speaker 3: it didn't happen, I mean, then you're not going to
[52:50] Speaker 3: win that.
[52:51] Speaker 1: I assumed that they were that there was an investigation
[52:56] Speaker 1: because I kept delivering stuff, So I assumed they were
[52:59] Speaker 1: watching it and they would have known that there was
[53:02] Speaker 1: interstate activity based on what we delivered. But I don't
[53:06] Speaker 1: think they did, and I didn't know until I saw
[53:10] Speaker 1: the documentary myself, because we didn't produce it. We didn't
[53:14] Speaker 1: we had no creative control over it. We didn't even
[53:17] Speaker 1: see it until two weeks before it came out.
[53:19] Speaker 3: Toga has a producer credit, but he was not He
[53:22] Speaker 3: did not have any control over it, right exactly.
[53:26] Speaker 1: So there were things in there I didn't even know. Yeah,
[53:28] Speaker 1: because they had They even got footage from you know,
[53:30] Speaker 1: other places, bodycam, other people, stuff like that. But the
[53:34] Speaker 1: interstate aspect of it would have enabled the FBI to come.
[53:40] Speaker 1: And I was wanting the FBI because I wanted to
[53:42] Speaker 1: have recording devices and guidance, and the local LA enforcement
[53:47] Speaker 1: said they couldn't do that, that had to be FBI.
[53:49] Speaker 1: I'm like, well, get the FBI, you know, And so
[53:51] Speaker 1: I was bothering them, so they were. He was excited
[53:54] Speaker 1: to tell me about this, you know, task force. That's great.
[53:57] Speaker 1: So finally the FBI gets involved, and then things really
[54:00] Speaker 1: took off finally with a lot of progress.
[54:04] Speaker 4: That was so wonderful to see. I will just quickly
[54:06] Speaker 4: add I wish there wasn't a lot that a victim
[54:08] Speaker 4: had to come forward if you have video of them, Yeah,
[54:14] Speaker 4: because you're gonna get victim shamed, and it's really hard,
[54:18] Speaker 4: and a lot of these girls are really young.
[54:20] Speaker 1: I don't know. There's just so many laws that I
[54:21] Speaker 1: wish we could change.
[54:23] Speaker 3: Maybe if they had filmed the crime itself, that would
[54:26] Speaker 3: be different. But I guess just the recording of them
[54:28] Speaker 3: talking about it.
[54:29] Speaker 2: Yeah maybe, I guess I see why that's not quite enough.
[54:34] Speaker 3: But it's frustrate. It's certainly frustrating. Frustrating. Yeah, yeah, yeah
[54:37] Speaker 3: it was.
[54:38] Speaker 1: And they were also brainwashed, you know, I know that's
[54:43] Speaker 1: not a psychological term, but it's what we say. Yeah,
[54:49] Speaker 1: they wouldn't. They would be protecting him, and you.
[54:52] Speaker 3: Can see it very clearly in the footage. I mean,
[54:56] Speaker 3: our previous guest and lovely friend Gnomes. You can see
[55:01] Speaker 3: she is very much, very indoctrinated in Yeah, you know,
[55:05] Speaker 3: intent on following Sam's orders at all costs.
[55:09] Speaker 1: And you understand why now. I mean, there was always
[55:11] Speaker 1: a subtle threat that if you don't, it was more
[55:15] Speaker 1: than your eternal life, you know, you might get killed. Yeah,
[55:20] Speaker 1: and I was afraid. I started getting messages and threats too,
[55:25] Speaker 1: but that was after it's a little later, Yeah, after
[55:29] Speaker 1: we got out and all that stuff.
[55:30] Speaker 3: And Nolme's talked a little bit. If folks haven't heard
[55:33] Speaker 3: her episode yet, she talked a little bit about the
[55:36] Speaker 3: process of sam indoctrinating her because there were a lot
[55:38] Speaker 3: there was physical harm that happened, there were more, you know,
[55:41] Speaker 3: there was a lot going on besides the aforementioned course
[55:46] Speaker 3: of rights. Yeah, okay, so then things start picking up.
[55:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, it was incredible. So we still needed a victim
[55:56] Speaker 1: to come forward. And because I wasn't attacking the Samulites,
[56:04] Speaker 1: because I hadn't attacked the FLDSS, because I continued to
[56:11] Speaker 1: be kind and epathetic no matter where they were in
[56:13] Speaker 1: their journey, a victim felt like I was a safe
[56:18] Speaker 1: person to come to. So she did and she her
[56:24] Speaker 1: name is Julia, and she seemed upset. I said, Julia,
[56:30] Speaker 1: what's going on? Whatever you tell me, I'm not going
[56:33] Speaker 1: to tell sam our thing's okay, And she said no,
[56:39] Speaker 1: and she let me know that there were things going on.
[56:43] Speaker 1: But even before her, the reason I knew is because
[56:48] Speaker 1: there was one of the young wives that was having
[56:51] Speaker 1: secret meetings with me named Michel, and Michel was giving
[56:57] Speaker 1: me as much background as she could, but they kept
[57:03] Speaker 1: her in the dark about a lot of things, but
[57:04] Speaker 1: I had some background by that time. I knew Sam
[57:07] Speaker 1: had married all these little girls, including as young as
[57:09] Speaker 1: age nine.
[57:11] Speaker 3: Ah Jesus Christ.
[57:12] Speaker 1: Okay, So when Julia came to me, I already had
[57:16] Speaker 1: a background on some of the things. She wanted to talk,
[57:20] Speaker 1: but she didn't know if I was going to tell Sam.
[57:22] Speaker 1: I wanted to tell her everything, but I didn't know
[57:24] Speaker 1: if she was going to tell Sam. And I knew
[57:26] Speaker 1: I had to get evidence. So we were doing this
[57:28] Speaker 1: dance hmmm, like can I trust you? Can I trust you?
[57:33] Speaker 1: So the next day she came over and I had
[57:38] Speaker 1: my box of evidence from my own personal experience when
[57:42] Speaker 1: my prophet had written things, and I said to her, Julia,
[57:48] Speaker 1: no matter what has happened, I have no judgment. I
[57:54] Speaker 1: had to get naked as for part of my tests
[58:00] Speaker 1: and do things I would have never done, and subject
[58:02] Speaker 1: myself to abuse something like that. And I said, I
[58:06] Speaker 1: want to show you some of the writings from my profit,
[58:10] Speaker 1: and I get out some of his actual writings, including
[58:16] Speaker 1: handwritten letters from prison. And she was amazed, because I thought,
[58:24] Speaker 1: if I tell her my story, then she'll know I'm
[58:28] Speaker 1: really not going to go to Sam that I've been
[58:30] Speaker 1: through this That was my strategy and it worked. So
[58:36] Speaker 1: I didn't even have to go through all the box
[58:38] Speaker 1: or anything. She just hit this point and she told
[58:40] Speaker 1: me later, when you told me your story, I thought
[58:45] Speaker 1: I had no idea how deeply she would not understand this,
[58:49] Speaker 1: and that she was the right person. So she said,
[58:51] Speaker 1: that is when the flood She let the flood gates out.
[58:55] Speaker 1: She started telling me everything. Then I was recording it,
[58:59] Speaker 1: and she was, you know, did a lot of crying.
[59:04] Speaker 1: It was, but she wanted me to record so she
[59:08] Speaker 1: wouldn't have to say it again because it was so
[59:11] Speaker 1: emotional to the FBI. And then she I told her
[59:14] Speaker 1: I was working with the FBI, and then I had
[59:16] Speaker 1: to help her gain trust in law enforcement, which is
[59:19] Speaker 1: no small feat, of course, you know. But then she did,
[59:23] Speaker 1: and it was the fact that it was a woman
[59:24] Speaker 1: was very helpful and that Don was so kind. She
[59:28] Speaker 1: was incredible. So then Julia down the FBI specially agent charge,
[59:38] Speaker 1: and I just became this this tornado of productivity.
[59:44] Speaker 3: It's just like so dramatic, like these three women working
[59:47] Speaker 3: together in secret to take down this guy, like it's
[59:51] Speaker 3: so amazing, Oh my goodness.
[59:52] Speaker 1: When we were doing it and we knew we were scared.
[59:55] Speaker 1: Like when we were doing this, Sam was still teaching
[59:59] Speaker 1: blood to Tom, and he told Julia that she needed
[1:00:04] Speaker 1: she needed help make sure this God enacted on her
[1:00:07] Speaker 1: own husband that he was killed essentially, and he gets killed. Yes,
[1:00:12] Speaker 1: And because Sam was jealous of him, right, and jealous
[1:00:17] Speaker 1: as the other man. Because remember he took the wives
[1:00:19] Speaker 1: from Vietnam, but the wives wanted to stay with Marona
[1:00:24] Speaker 1: in Luod, you know, I mean at least with Marona.
[1:00:28] Speaker 1: And he resented he and he rebuked those wives for
[1:00:33] Speaker 1: still thinking about him when they were crying when they
[1:00:36] Speaker 1: had to go to Sam and all this stuff.
[1:00:37] Speaker 4: He's such a baby. He's like a baby with a grenade.
[1:00:40] Speaker 4: That's so scary. I mean, you can politically make whatever connections.
[1:00:45] Speaker 1: Look at me, look at me, dep around. Yeah, he
[1:00:48] Speaker 1: wanted everybody to see him, so he put his wives
[1:00:51] Speaker 1: in this flatbed trailer and drove around town with all
[1:00:58] Speaker 1: these they're beautiful, these are beautiful, smart people. And he
[1:01:02] Speaker 1: would want all the man to see him, you know,
[1:01:07] Speaker 1: showing off his prize horses as he drove around town.
[1:01:11] Speaker 1: All these beautiful young girls like me. You guys, they
[1:01:14] Speaker 1: like me. I got them.
[1:01:15] Speaker 4: Wow, your life was on the line, and watching that
[1:01:18] Speaker 4: documentary is bone chilling.
[1:01:21] Speaker 1: How you must have been petrified. I was petrified at times,
[1:01:25] Speaker 1: for sure. One time I got in my car and
[1:01:29] Speaker 1: was driving away and I got a phone call from
[1:01:30] Speaker 1: Sam and he said, you look very lovely in your
[1:01:35] Speaker 1: pink dressed with your blue sweater or whatever I was wearing.
[1:01:39] Speaker 1: And I thought, how does he know what I were today?
[1:01:45] Speaker 1: And I realized, does he have cameras at my house?
[1:01:48] Speaker 1: On my house? With what will come to my mind? Yeah,
[1:01:51] Speaker 1: I mean I freaked out about it. I did video journals.
[1:01:53] Speaker 1: I sent him to Lolan case something happened to me.
[1:01:56] Speaker 3: You know, I have a bunch of WhatsApp history of
[1:02:00] Speaker 3: voice memos.
[1:02:01] Speaker 4: You must have been petrified to Lola, that's it's so scary.
[1:02:04] Speaker 4: You're really dealing with a psychopath. And I got some
[1:02:08] Speaker 4: literal death threats.
[1:02:09] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And once I hit it Lola's house because
[1:02:12] Speaker 1: I was afraid that they were going to make good
[1:02:14] Speaker 1: on their threat that I would be because that's after
[1:02:18] Speaker 1: they found out. That's after they found out.
[1:02:20] Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember talking to you both ones. So I
[1:02:23] Speaker 4: was just like, I'm very scared. I don't bubb and
[1:02:25] Speaker 4: you guys like, there's a donkey.
[1:02:29] Speaker 1: Donkey alarm system. That's true. I was like, I want
[1:02:33] Speaker 1: more though than just a donkey, where.
[1:02:35] Speaker 3: Though the second you walk up about.
[1:02:38] Speaker 1: Donkey noise, I can't do it.
[1:02:39] Speaker 4: True, So there's a donkey that lives on your property
[1:02:41] Speaker 4: or was that would make a loud noise, and that
[1:02:43] Speaker 4: that was our security for its true.
[1:02:49] Speaker 1: It's true. It's a miniature donkey.
[1:02:50] Speaker 2: We still have in my love them now they have
[1:02:52] Speaker 2: a real alarm, sister. But we do good good.
[1:02:56] Speaker 3: But yeah, at the time, I mean, yes, I took
[1:02:59] Speaker 3: comfort into a people at your house. There are always
[1:03:01] Speaker 3: people at your house.
[1:03:02] Speaker 1: There are. And when we knew that the arrest was imminent,
[1:03:08] Speaker 1: we started moving Julia out of this one home where
[1:03:13] Speaker 1: everybody was living, right, so we called the Blue House.
[1:03:16] Speaker 1: And so secretly, in the middle of the night, Julia
[1:03:22] Speaker 1: would put boxes of her stuff in these bins. Now
[1:03:26] Speaker 1: she had a cleaning company, so she would have these
[1:03:29] Speaker 1: gray bins with all her cleaning stuff, Like I think
[1:03:31] Speaker 1: they were like gray with yellow lids, you know. So
[1:03:34] Speaker 1: she would put like four of them by the door.
[1:03:39] Speaker 1: And then Michel, this beautiful young girl who's also a singer.
[1:03:44] Speaker 1: I mean she's over eighteen, but she would take those
[1:03:48] Speaker 1: bins put them in her car, so people at the
[1:03:51] Speaker 1: house thought it was Julia's cleaning supplies. But we were
[1:03:54] Speaker 1: secretly moving them out, you know, every night. And if
[1:03:58] Speaker 1: Michael would have been caught, she would have been in
[1:04:01] Speaker 1: a very bad way. But that's how we did it.
[1:04:03] Speaker 1: She hid her stuff, you know, cleaning binds, so nobody
[1:04:06] Speaker 1: would be aware. So she was primarily moved out before
[1:04:11] Speaker 1: the raid, but she finished moving out afterwards anyway, So
[1:04:16] Speaker 1: then there was a raid. Yes it worked. Yeah, that
[1:04:18] Speaker 1: was a thing. That raid could have been a disaster
[1:04:21] Speaker 1: without you.
[1:04:22] Speaker 4: We've talked to so many people who have lost family
[1:04:26] Speaker 4: members and raids.
[1:04:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, they can get really ugly. And what was that
[1:04:31] Speaker 2: like for you?
[1:04:32] Speaker 1: It was scary. The night before, Toga and I had
[1:04:35] Speaker 1: a hugging crying session. If anything happens to you, I
[1:04:40] Speaker 1: want you to know you were the best husband. I
[1:04:44] Speaker 1: was sitting on his lab. We were just hugging and rocking.
[1:04:46] Speaker 1: You know. It's like I had the best life.
[1:04:48] Speaker 3: We just didn't like God because he's with Sam and
[1:04:51] Speaker 3: you're with the girls.
[1:04:52] Speaker 1: The next day he was to be with Sam and
[1:04:54] Speaker 1: I would be with the girls, and we knew they
[1:04:57] Speaker 1: had weapons, you know, we knew the girls had said
[1:05:00] Speaker 1: if anybody arrests Sam, We're going to level the state
[1:05:02] Speaker 1: of Utah in Arizona. We knew they'd been out doing
[1:05:05] Speaker 1: target practice learning how to use these weapons. So but
[1:05:10] Speaker 1: we also knew we had to come through. You know,
[1:05:13] Speaker 1: when I was driven, I did not want them to
[1:05:15] Speaker 1: go through any more abuse, and I did not want
[1:05:20] Speaker 1: them to have the hole in their heart that law
[1:05:25] Speaker 1: enforcement never cared like I had, that their guy would
[1:05:29] Speaker 1: never get arrested. I was determined to get him off
[1:05:33] Speaker 1: the street, and so whatever it took, so we did.
[1:05:38] Speaker 1: So I went over in the location where the girls were.
[1:05:42] Speaker 1: We wanted to separate Sam from the girls so there'd
[1:05:44] Speaker 1: be a less chance of violence, and Toga went with
[1:05:49] Speaker 1: Sam and it was it was handled very well. It
[1:05:56] Speaker 1: was scary, but there was no violence, and we had
[1:06:02] Speaker 1: the doors open so they didn't break the doors in
[1:06:05] Speaker 1: terrify all the little babies. You know. So it was
[1:06:10] Speaker 1: an incredibly intense time for everyone, so emotional on so
[1:06:17] Speaker 1: many levels. Yeah, but the people, the people who had
[1:06:21] Speaker 1: done the right. There were fifty law enforcement from around
[1:06:24] Speaker 1: from around places when they were not told who the
[1:06:28] Speaker 1: informants were so they treated everybody the same. They threw
[1:06:32] Speaker 1: toga on the ground, they did.
[1:06:33] Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't know that.
[1:06:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, he had to get handcuffs, you know.
[1:06:37] Speaker 3: Oh wow, wow.
[1:06:39] Speaker 1: They just didn't know who I was.
[1:06:41] Speaker 3: They intentional so that you wouldn't get treated differently.
[1:06:44] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:06:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, interesting. You know.
[1:06:46] Speaker 1: They took our phones like everybody else's. They interrogated us.
[1:06:49] Speaker 1: And Julia when she was when the FBI went into
[1:06:53] Speaker 1: her room, I was trying to let her know. I
[1:06:54] Speaker 1: couldn't let her know that it was about to happen,
[1:06:56] Speaker 1: but she was so scared, she was on pins and
[1:06:58] Speaker 1: needles that they wouldn't come in time. I couldn't tell her,
[1:07:01] Speaker 1: but so I called her early in the morning and
[1:07:03] Speaker 1: I just said, Julia, are you dressed? Mmmmm? Get you
[1:07:08] Speaker 1: might want to get dressed.
[1:07:09] Speaker 4: Mmmm.
[1:07:10] Speaker 1: You might want to look pretty. Oh my gosh, that's
[1:07:13] Speaker 1: all I said, I might want to get dressed right now.
[1:07:16] Speaker 1: But she still didn't know. But when they came into
[1:07:19] Speaker 1: her place, she said she just wanted to hug them,
[1:07:22] Speaker 1: just wanted to hug them. Well, everybody else was so angry.
[1:07:25] Speaker 1: She was like, thank you think you thank you, my god.
[1:07:28] Speaker 3: Yeah, can you talk to just briefly a bit about
[1:07:32] Speaker 3: conflict you felt in your head knowing that you were
[1:07:34] Speaker 3: going to betray their trust.
[1:07:37] Speaker 1: You know, when I think about how I escaped my situation,
[1:07:42] Speaker 1: it was with the help of someone who brought me
[1:07:45] Speaker 1: into reality kind of forcefully in a way, you know.
[1:07:49] Speaker 1: But I had to be that person. And I love
[1:07:53] Speaker 1: these people so much. I still do, even though they
[1:07:56] Speaker 1: hate me. I know that's not who they really are.
[1:08:01] Speaker 1: And I just didn't want to add to their suffering,
[1:08:04] Speaker 1: and I knew it would. It was rough. I had
[1:08:08] Speaker 1: to get therapy, you know, to live that double life
[1:08:11] Speaker 1: and to deal with the anticipation of how much.
[1:08:16] Speaker 3: I was going to hurt them.
[1:08:18] Speaker 1: But I had to come to the conclusion that I
[1:08:21] Speaker 1: was hurting them for their own good.
[1:08:24] Speaker 4: Yeah, you had to be the real adult and your life,
[1:08:28] Speaker 4: I thought.
[1:08:29] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:08:29] Speaker 1: It was like I was taking like they were drunk
[1:08:32] Speaker 1: and I was taking the keys to their car away,
[1:08:35] Speaker 1: whether they wanted me to or not. Right now, you
[1:08:38] Speaker 1: know a number of people have woken up and come
[1:08:40] Speaker 1: out and are incredibly grateful. That's great, but not all,
[1:08:45] Speaker 1: not all, not all, no, probably not most.
[1:08:50] Speaker 4: What did it feel like when you knew the raid
[1:08:52] Speaker 4: was over and it had been non violent.
[1:08:56] Speaker 1: I suppose it would be like running a marathon and
[1:09:02] Speaker 1: winning and then for three days afterwards, you've got like
[1:09:07] Speaker 1: still all this nervous energy, but it's happy, something like
[1:09:11] Speaker 1: that miracle.
[1:09:14] Speaker 3: And so now this series is out and the whole
[1:09:16] Speaker 3: world knows who you are. Something we've talked about, I
[1:09:19] Speaker 3: think in our original episode certainly that we've talked about
[1:09:22] Speaker 3: between us, which is what your research centers around, which
[1:09:25] Speaker 3: is media misrepresentation, and how your story of your original
[1:09:30] Speaker 3: experience with our profit was not told well when people
[1:09:37] Speaker 3: had told it, it victim blamed you, you know, it
[1:09:39] Speaker 3: retraumatized you, and so that's become something that you're passionate about.
[1:09:44] Speaker 3: How do you feel now having been a part of
[1:09:47] Speaker 3: this series.
[1:09:48] Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness, I feel really overjoyed. It was so
[1:09:53] Speaker 1: ethically complicated and the story was complicated. So when we
[1:09:58] Speaker 1: entrusted all the footage to someone else, I mean we
[1:10:01] Speaker 1: were in it. It was too big for us. We
[1:10:04] Speaker 1: had to but we had to just hope that the director,
[1:10:10] Speaker 1: Rachel Dredsen, the main director, but then there was also
[1:10:13] Speaker 1: longtime family friend Elise who was a director, and also Jamila,
[1:10:19] Speaker 1: and so we just turned it over and I didn't
[1:10:24] Speaker 1: just hope that they would do it well. I did
[1:10:27] Speaker 1: as much educating as I could to Rachel about my
[1:10:34] Speaker 1: hopes and why I talked about my experience. I talked
[1:10:39] Speaker 1: about everything that I knew that creates victim shaming and
[1:10:44] Speaker 1: why it was so important to give the psychological backdrop
[1:10:47] Speaker 1: of everything. And I suspect she knew all that anyway,
[1:10:52] Speaker 1: but I wanted to feel like I tried really hard
[1:10:57] Speaker 1: to impart the need to treat these people dignity and
[1:11:00] Speaker 1: see them as victims even if they committed crimes because
[1:11:04] Speaker 1: of Sam, and the way it turned out was amazing.
[1:11:09] Speaker 1: I couldn't have done it better because the public response
[1:11:15] Speaker 1: has been to want to embrace these victims. I haven't
[1:11:21] Speaker 1: seen a single comment that has been victim shaming, even
[1:11:24] Speaker 1: for the people who still believe in Sam. And you know,
[1:11:28] Speaker 1: I've been inundated with dms and emails and those words
[1:11:34] Speaker 1: are a dream for me after what I went through.
[1:11:38] Speaker 1: To see them treating the survivors of Sam Bateman with
[1:11:45] Speaker 1: so much dignity, I couldn't have asked for better directors,
[1:11:49] Speaker 1: a better team.
[1:11:51] Speaker 3: So, dear mother, Yes, first of all, just like, what
[1:11:55] Speaker 3: a fucking life you have.
[1:11:57] Speaker 4: You're a hero, lightly hero, and you've been a hero
[1:12:01] Speaker 4: to me. You're one of the first people who's gotten
[1:12:03] Speaker 4: through to me. We both love you so much, my
[1:12:07] Speaker 4: best friend. You've saved so many lives. Yes, yeah, America's
[1:12:11] Speaker 4: best friends.
[1:12:11] Speaker 3: Honestly, I get so many comments too, just being like
[1:12:15] Speaker 3: America's mother and I do.
[1:12:17] Speaker 1: Love children, but like be kind to each other, please,
[1:12:21] Speaker 1: and I don't.
[1:12:21] Speaker 3: I'm not responding to all of them. But like, that's
[1:12:24] Speaker 3: how I've always known you in long before this, long
[1:12:28] Speaker 3: before there were any cameras, no one ever around to see.
[1:12:31] Speaker 3: Like if anybody ever is like having trouble and they
[1:12:35] Speaker 3: call you, you answer and you talk to them for
[1:12:37] Speaker 3: like two hours, even if you barely fucking know them,
[1:12:39] Speaker 3: Like that's just always been who you are, and like
[1:12:42] Speaker 3: you always have been doing service in private and secretly
[1:12:45] Speaker 3: and when no one is watching. That's just like and
[1:12:49] Speaker 3: I was annoyed by it growing up, if we're being honest,
[1:12:51] Speaker 3: I was like, stop stop blooding.
[1:12:54] Speaker 1: I don't want all these people around.
[1:12:56] Speaker 3: Sorry, But so it's it's very exciting for me to
[1:13:02] Speaker 3: see that now everyone can appreciate who you are and
[1:13:06] Speaker 3: what you've done and and just like truly kind of
[1:13:10] Speaker 3: test it.
[1:13:11] Speaker 1: It's just always you've always been like that.
[1:13:13] Speaker 4: And then to give the dignity to your own story
[1:13:15] Speaker 4: that was stripped away, Like yeah.
[1:13:18] Speaker 3: It was.
[1:13:19] Speaker 1: It was healing for me to you know, this was
[1:13:24] Speaker 1: the story of three women Me, Julia, and Nomes who
[1:13:29] Speaker 1: had all suffered abuse, who came together and took down
[1:13:34] Speaker 1: a monster.
[1:13:35] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[1:13:35] Speaker 1: It was girl power. Yeah, and I couldn't have done
[1:13:38] Speaker 1: it without Tolga. Yeah, he was my secret weapon. But
[1:13:41] Speaker 1: this was really about women finding their voice, and for me,
[1:13:47] Speaker 1: it was full circle narrative arc. Yeah, because yeah, after
[1:13:52] Speaker 1: what the docu drama did to destroy me and make.
[1:13:57] Speaker 3: The feel like the old one, the old one.
[1:13:59] Speaker 1: Make me feel like the most sluch shamed mother on
[1:14:01] Speaker 1: the planet. Now, to be honest, I feel like the
[1:14:04] Speaker 1: most loved person on the most loved woman on the internet.
[1:14:07] Speaker 1: And you should be And oh you're so kind. I
[1:14:10] Speaker 1: know it's going to go away, but I'm savoring this
[1:14:13] Speaker 1: moment and I'm thrilled with all of the changes and
[1:14:17] Speaker 1: the impact that is coming from people who've watched the documentary.
[1:14:22] Speaker 1: I get to talk to students, teachers, have me zoom
[1:14:26] Speaker 1: in to talk about coerceive control because of the documentary.
[1:14:30] Speaker 1: I mean, I've already done like five educational zooms. But
[1:14:34] Speaker 1: then other people say they found the strength to turn
[1:14:37] Speaker 1: in their abuser because they were inspired by Julia, the
[1:14:40] Speaker 1: real hero who really threatened her, had her life threatened,
[1:14:45] Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I can't stress it enough. What
[1:14:49] Speaker 1: the inner power and strength she had to come up
[1:14:52] Speaker 1: with with what she was facing.
[1:14:55] Speaker 4: You make a great point. There's so many heroes in
[1:14:57] Speaker 4: the story of the FBI A. Yes, she was incredible.
[1:15:00] Speaker 4: I keep making a mental note that we have to
[1:15:02] Speaker 4: drop her full name in the intro because.
[1:15:04] Speaker 1: They're so smart. There's heroes on heroes and heroes.
[1:15:07] Speaker 4: And yeah, thank you beyond words for for doing the
[1:15:13] Speaker 4: work that you did, even though it could have gotten
[1:15:16] Speaker 4: you killed and you still have threats, but thank god
[1:15:19] Speaker 4: for donkeys and alarm systems and yeah, your voice.
[1:15:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, and for me. Thank you from me. Thank you
[1:15:28] Speaker 1: to everybody who has watched it, been touched by it
[1:15:32] Speaker 1: and told other people to watch it and made some
[1:15:35] Speaker 1: kind of change as a result of it. That is something.
[1:15:41] Speaker 1: The response to be this great, to go number one
[1:15:44] Speaker 1: globally on Netflix, and to have just won a Critic's
[1:15:48] Speaker 1: Choice Award. It almost startles me. It makes my heart beam. Yeah,
[1:15:55] Speaker 1: it makes my heart smile. And it's so it's so,
[1:15:58] Speaker 1: it's just so right. Yeah.
[1:16:00] Speaker 3: Yeah, And for me, sorry not to harp on this
[1:16:03] Speaker 3: for too long. I know we have to wrap up,
[1:16:04] Speaker 3: but I'm just really happy that, like you're what you've
[1:16:08] Speaker 3: gone through in your life, because you have been through
[1:16:09] Speaker 3: so much adversity and you have been traumatized and had
[1:16:14] Speaker 3: so much taken from you. The fact that you get
[1:16:17] Speaker 3: to use that, the fact that you got to use
[1:16:20] Speaker 3: that not only to help them but also like to
[1:16:22] Speaker 3: tell this story in this larger way, is just so
[1:16:25] Speaker 3: fucking gratify.
[1:16:25] Speaker 1: That's your resilience.
[1:16:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, that is resiliently use dramatic growth, post traumatic growth.
[1:16:30] Speaker 1: It's resilience and it's and it's turning trauma into triumph.
[1:16:36] Speaker 3: And that's her slogan.
[1:16:37] Speaker 1: Focus is I got it in there.
[1:16:39] Speaker 4: And if you experienced trauma and you want to find
[1:16:44] Speaker 4: meaning from it, watch this document documentarian, Watch does this documentarian?
[1:16:50] Speaker 3: Just document?
[1:16:50] Speaker 1: Watch this document a tree?
[1:16:53] Speaker 4: And uh yeah, what where can people follow you?
[1:16:57] Speaker 1: What followed me on Instagram? Doctor Christie. There's a dot
[1:17:01] Speaker 1: after the R like dr dot Christy Marie. I'm on
[1:17:04] Speaker 1: TikTok doctor Christy Marie. I haven't really started doing TikTok yet,
[1:17:08] Speaker 1: but I'm going to. And I have a website, Christinemurrie
[1:17:14] Speaker 1: dot com, and I have a lot of resources on there.
[1:17:16] Speaker 1: If any of this speaks to you and you need
[1:17:18] Speaker 1: some help, check out my resource page. We love you, amen,
[1:17:23] Speaker 1: thank you amen. Why are we saying amend? It's just odd?
[1:17:29] Speaker 3: No, okay, gosh, And instead of amen, I will say, indeed,
[1:17:36] Speaker 3: thank you mom.
[1:17:38] Speaker 1: Love you guys, thank you mom. And that's all we.
[1:17:43] Speaker 3: Have with my dear mother, Christine Marie, who you may
[1:17:47] Speaker 3: hear from again very soon, I don't know.
[1:17:49] Speaker 1: We'll see crust, your cross, your fingies. Yeah.
[1:17:54] Speaker 3: What an incredible story, What an incredible journey she's been on,
[1:17:59] Speaker 3: And what a way to use you know, your traumatic
[1:18:02] Speaker 3: experiences for good. I mean, it's kind of the most extreme.
[1:18:07] Speaker 3: Weay you could do it, but.
[1:18:10] Speaker 1: I don't. Ideally, I don't want to do that.
[1:18:13] Speaker 3: But this brings me to my question, because this is
[1:18:16] Speaker 3: normally the part of the podcast for those who are
[1:18:18] Speaker 3: new where I ask Megan if she would join this cult.
[1:18:22] Speaker 3: I'm not going to ask her that today. She would
[1:18:24] Speaker 3: join many cults, not this one.
[1:18:25] Speaker 1: We know this. Nope. So Megan, would you go undercover? Oh?
[1:18:31] Speaker 4: Yes, I would, But I don't know if I could
[1:18:34] Speaker 4: go to the links that your mom did because she's
[1:18:37] Speaker 4: a hero.
[1:18:38] Speaker 1: I don't.
[1:18:38] Speaker 4: I could like maybe put on a fake mustache or
[1:18:41] Speaker 4: something and like you know, the like the real version
[1:18:46] Speaker 4: of that, like maybe a wig, go try a few things,
[1:18:51] Speaker 4: but I don't.
[1:18:52] Speaker 3: I feel like I could see you going into like
[1:18:55] Speaker 3: yoga community and just getting into it, you know, like authentically,
[1:19:03] Speaker 3: and then maybe you just start tore in it in
[1:19:05] Speaker 3: a minute.
[1:19:06] Speaker 1: That's why I couldn't.
[1:19:07] Speaker 4: If listeners listen to the episode A couple back with
[1:19:10] Speaker 4: Noomes where I almost moved into the alien cult house, like,
[1:19:14] Speaker 4: sometimes going undercover means you join the cult. So I
[1:19:17] Speaker 4: shouldn't go undercover for cults that or something I might join.
[1:19:23] Speaker 4: But I would like to think if there were a
[1:19:25] Speaker 4: cult out there doing criminal things that I could go
[1:19:27] Speaker 4: undercover and.
[1:19:28] Speaker 3: Help that I would. Yeah, I think you would. I
[1:19:31] Speaker 3: think I would. I think we both would. I would,
[1:19:34] Speaker 3: but I couldn't.
[1:19:35] Speaker 4: We would maybe not do it as long. Yeah, length
[1:19:39] Speaker 4: might be the problem for us. Yea, Yeah, she played
[1:19:43] Speaker 4: the long game. And there's really no words to describe
[1:19:46] Speaker 4: what she did. So, doctor Christine, we love you, but
[1:19:50] Speaker 4: I love you the most because you're my actual mother
[1:19:53] Speaker 4: in addition to being America's mother. Well, Lola, it looks
[1:19:57] Speaker 4: like it's a wrap, but let's ask our listeners to
[1:20:00] Speaker 4: go rate us five stars.
[1:20:01] Speaker 1: If you so, please go get some merch at.
[1:20:04] Speaker 3: Exactly rightstore dot com.
[1:20:07] Speaker 4: That's right, and as always, remember to follow your gut,
[1:20:11] Speaker 4: watch out for red flags.
[1:20:13] Speaker 1: And never ever trust me. Bye.
[1:20:19] Speaker 3: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted by.
[1:20:22] Speaker 1: Me Lola Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer
[1:20:25] Speaker 1: is G. Holly.
[1:20:26] Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.
[1:20:28] Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
[1:20:32] Speaker 4: is Patrick Kottner.
[1:20:33] Speaker 3: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
[1:20:36] Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark
[1:20:40] Speaker 4: and Danielle Kramer.
[1:20:41] Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast
[1:20:43] Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.
[1:20:46] Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,
[1:20:49] Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
[1:20:52] Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts,
[1:20:55] Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts

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