# Liz Cameron, Part 2 - Christ is on Earth, He’s in Prison, and You’re His Bride

An episode of [Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1534370789), 11 Mar 2026, 55 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/f804eed6-dd2f-4bf9-ba37-b2de011a8b27/6351bd39-371e-4fba-a40e-b4010147362a/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=462fb424-93c4-4e4b-8e00-b2de011a8b44

This week is part two with Liz Cameron, author of Cult Bride and survivor of Korean religious group Jesus Morning Star, also known as JMS. Last week she discussed the slow process of indoctrination into the group, and this week Liz shares how she learned the community's deepest secret: the mysterious Pastor Joshua was actually named Jung Myung-seok, but he was REALLY the Second Coming of Jesus. And yes, he was currently sitting in prison in South Korea for committing sexual assault… but don’t worry, that was just because of persecution. Liz explains how all the carefully planned indoctrination leading up until this point primed her to be able to accept something like this, how she’d been identified to be one of the brides of the leader, what happened when she traveled to Korea to meet him in person, and how the eating disorder re-triggered by the group landed her in the hospital—but ultimately helped her get out of the group. SOURCES Cult Bride See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust her?
[0:04] Speaker 2: Right ever? Lead you?
[0:05] Speaker 1: Astrit trust? This is the truth, the only truth.
[0:09] Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
[0:13] Speaker 3: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief
[0:16] Speaker 3: and manipulation from two cult brides who've actually experienced it.
[0:20] Speaker 3: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and this week
[0:23] Speaker 3: is part two with our guests Liz Cameron, survivor of
[0:26] Speaker 3: Korean religious group Jesus Morning Star AKAJMS, and author of
[0:30] Speaker 3: Cult Bride. Last week we talked about the slow and
[0:34] Speaker 3: meticulous process of indoctrination into the group, and this week
[0:37] Speaker 3: she'll tell us about how the women revealed that the
[0:39] Speaker 3: mysterious pastor Joshua they'd been talking about this whole time
[0:42] Speaker 3: was actually not a pastor. He was the second Coming
[0:45] Speaker 3: of Christ and he was currently sitting in prison in
[0:48] Speaker 3: South Korea for sexual assault. But don't worry, they said
[0:51] Speaker 3: it was just because of persecution.
[0:53] Speaker 4: Liz explains how all the perfectly planned in doctrination leading
[0:57] Speaker 4: up until this point primed her to be able to
[0:59] Speaker 4: accept something like this, How she'd been identified to be
[1:02] Speaker 4: one of the brides of this leader. What happened when
[1:06] Speaker 4: she traveled to Korea to meet Im in person, and
[1:09] Speaker 4: how the eating disorder re triggered by the group, landed
[1:13] Speaker 4: her in the hospital but ultimately helped her get out
[1:16] Speaker 4: of the group, which Lola, we talk about this in
[1:18] Speaker 4: the episode, but that's like my story. What Oh my god,
[1:22] Speaker 4: I know, it's like, it's such a it's such a
[1:24] Speaker 4: fucked up thing.
[1:25] Speaker 3: When someone gets ill because of a group. You don't
[1:29] Speaker 3: want them to be ill. But that time spent in
[1:31] Speaker 3: the hospital. I mean we've had on a number of
[1:33] Speaker 3: guests like this. That time spent in the hospital is
[1:35] Speaker 3: the thing that helps them get out, or or.
[1:38] Speaker 4: A job like I always go back to Moses Storm
[1:40] Speaker 4: working in the grocery store for like two weeks and
[1:42] Speaker 4: being like, I'm in love with one of the other totally, totally, I'm.
[1:45] Speaker 1: Out, totally.
[1:47] Speaker 3: Well, we will get into all of that shortly. And
[1:49] Speaker 3: before we do, Megan, what's your cultiest thing this week?
[1:52] Speaker 4: Oh my god, I'm so angry but excited that Prince
[1:59] Speaker 4: Andrew The Andrew formerly known as Prince was arrested for
[2:05] Speaker 4: the first time in four hundred years someone in.
[2:08] Speaker 1: The royal family has been arrested. Crazy.
[2:11] Speaker 4: Yeah, I was on our former guests podcast Mike Pressak
[2:17] Speaker 4: you remember Mike and Abby. He has a new series
[2:21] Speaker 4: called Beyond Religion. I did a YouTube video with him
[2:24] Speaker 4: and he asked who my dream guest would be, and
[2:26] Speaker 4: I said Prince Harry because I think the Royal family
[2:29] Speaker 4: is the.
[2:30] Speaker 1: Wildest of all time period.
[2:33] Speaker 4: And then to see Prince Andrew be arrested right after
[2:37] Speaker 4: was like, yes, British people really either are divided where
[2:43] Speaker 4: they're like it's the biggest fraud crazy thing I've ever seen.
[2:47] Speaker 1: Get it out of there. Are They're like so obsessed
[2:50] Speaker 1: with the Queen.
[2:50] Speaker 4: She's become some projection of like Mother Earth to them
[2:55] Speaker 4: that they get so mad at you. So I'm not
[2:58] Speaker 4: like trying to come after British people who feel really
[3:01] Speaker 4: close to the Queen.
[3:02] Speaker 1: Not the new Queen.
[3:03] Speaker 4: I don't think, no, even come up, yeah, I mean
[3:08] Speaker 4: and yeah, I watched The Crown religiously.
[3:11] Speaker 1: It's wonderful. I loved the Crown, but like she did allegedly.
[3:16] Speaker 4: Know a lot about Andrew's crimes and cover up for
[3:18] Speaker 4: a minute, It's just like, get out of here, lady,
[3:21] Speaker 4: get all of you. What is this? This is stupid.
[3:24] Speaker 4: I mean, the Crown does a great job, but depicting
[3:27] Speaker 4: like how prioritizing protecting the reputation of the royal family
[3:33] Speaker 4: is like the number one most important thing more wrecked
[3:36] Speaker 4: and I talk about this listens beyond religion. Mike Is
[3:39] Speaker 4: does a great job, and he only speaks sext two
[3:42] Speaker 4: by twos, but like kind of their whole purpose of
[3:46] Speaker 4: the Royal family, which I find in a lot of cults,
[3:48] Speaker 4: the two by two in particular is to show the
[3:51] Speaker 4: rest of humanity, lowly humanity, this example of life, you know,
[3:56] Speaker 4: like we use the fine China, we're very oh my
[3:59] Speaker 4: God like, like we have to show people what life British.
[4:06] Speaker 1: So you're not it's just weird. You just sound weird. Yeah, yeah, okay.
[4:12] Speaker 4: We have to show the people like what it means
[4:16] Speaker 4: to be perfect and that that will bring them closer
[4:20] Speaker 4: to God.
[4:21] Speaker 1: That is crazy.
[4:22] Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I love a castle as much as
[4:24] Speaker 3: the next person. I love a fancy room, but it
[4:28] Speaker 3: does all feel quite anachronistic in the modern era, like
[4:32] Speaker 3: we there is inequality in the world. I mean, but listen,
[4:36] Speaker 3: I also understand that we need like people in culture
[4:39] Speaker 3: to you know, all rally behind like I don't know,
[4:42] Speaker 3: I'm up to minds about it, but it does seem
[4:44] Speaker 3: a little bit outdated at this point.
[4:46] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know, shit, what would
[4:48] Speaker 4: happen if they were like, okay, it's done now, everybody
[4:50] Speaker 4: leave Buckingham Palace.
[4:51] Speaker 1: I don't know, like probably disaster.
[4:54] Speaker 4: So this is all hyperbole, but I love to seeing
[4:58] Speaker 4: Prince Andrew with his face looking crazy and the.
[5:02] Speaker 3: Cop car bye bye.
[5:04] Speaker 4: He never thought that was gonna happen. I know that allegedly. Okay,
[5:11] Speaker 4: so that was kind of my cultiest thing of the week.
[5:14] Speaker 4: What was yours?
[5:15] Speaker 3: I listened to a podcast, which I don't do very often,
[5:20] Speaker 3: weirdly for a podcaster. I listened to the Being Well podcast,
[5:23] Speaker 3: which is like a therapy podcast, and the guest was
[5:26] Speaker 3: Nedrick Lover to wob and she was talking about her book,
[5:29] Speaker 3: The Balancing Act, her new book which is about codependency
[5:34] Speaker 3: but also healthy dependency. And I thought it was really
[5:36] Speaker 3: interesting because they were having a conversation about something that
[5:41] Speaker 3: I feel like comes up a lot in sort of
[5:42] Speaker 3: the survivor world, which is like this need to have
[5:46] Speaker 3: boundaries and how that's really important. But one of the
[5:49] Speaker 3: unintended consequences of this boundaries movement is people become over boundaried,
[5:54] Speaker 3: and they start to fixate on this idea of loving yourself,
[5:59] Speaker 3: loving yourself and not needing anyone else. But in reality,
[6:02] Speaker 3: we're human beings, we are social creatures.
[6:05] Speaker 1: We need people.
[6:06] Speaker 3: We do need people, and we're not going to meet
[6:08] Speaker 3: our own needs by ourselves forever. So how to develop
[6:12] Speaker 3: connection that is healthy and be able to maintain community
[6:17] Speaker 3: without doing this sort of you know, you meet I
[6:20] Speaker 3: certainly know my share of people. I'm sure you do too,
[6:22] Speaker 3: where they're like kind of hyper boundaried, where they're like
[6:25] Speaker 3: cutting people off left and right instead of navigating conflict
[6:29] Speaker 3: or like finding a healthier way to have a relationship
[6:31] Speaker 3: with that person. It almost becomes a replacement for like communication,
[6:36] Speaker 3: and then that leaves people that can leave people I
[6:39] Speaker 3: should say isolated, because instead of deepening their connections with
[6:43] Speaker 3: people through the processes of navigating conflict and communicating, they're
[6:46] Speaker 3: just isolating themselves essentially. I just thought that that was
[6:50] Speaker 3: really interesting, especially in the context of just like, you know,
[6:53] Speaker 3: we talk so much about community on this show and
[6:55] Speaker 3: how much we need it, but how that need can
[6:57] Speaker 3: go badly And then I think there's this tendency for
[7:00] Speaker 3: many of us to overcorrect, or if we've gotten out
[7:03] Speaker 3: of a bad relationship and then we're dating again, there
[7:06] Speaker 3: can be this knee jerk need to like be a
[7:08] Speaker 3: little bit hyper vigilant about whether somebody is crossing our boundaries,
[7:12] Speaker 3: and the communication can kind of get lost in the sauce.
[7:15] Speaker 4: I think absolutely when it comes to dating, I am
[7:18] Speaker 4: in the latter camp. I'm not even going on a
[7:21] Speaker 4: date because my boundaries are so strong.
[7:23] Speaker 1: A relationships very strong. It's not happening.
[7:28] Speaker 4: But I do live by that quote that's like the
[7:32] Speaker 4: cost of community is showing up when you don't want to.
[7:35] Speaker 1: So I love it. I'm going. I'm going to a
[7:37] Speaker 1: lot of kids' birthdays.
[7:40] Speaker 4: And and i'm you know, and I'm glad that I
[7:44] Speaker 4: do every time I leave, But I never want to
[7:48] Speaker 4: leave my house same, you know. But even I saw
[7:52] Speaker 4: you at a birthday party the other night, like that
[7:54] Speaker 4: was a hard news day for me, and the last.
[7:57] Speaker 1: Thing I wanted to do was to like go out,
[8:00] Speaker 1: but I did.
[8:01] Speaker 4: And the connections to people I haven't seen in a
[8:05] Speaker 4: while and stuff, it does help.
[8:07] Speaker 1: So certainly I don't.
[8:10] Speaker 4: Know anything about dating because at this point, to me,
[8:13] Speaker 4: romance just seems like a bad idea red flag, and.
[8:18] Speaker 3: I'm having the opposite experience where I'm just dating everyone.
[8:22] Speaker 1: I'm dating all of the men.
[8:25] Speaker 4: Like if somebody's like I want to be in a
[8:27] Speaker 4: relationship a man, I'm like, oh that's a red flag.
[8:29] Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes, yes, I'm I'm I'm like.
[8:33] Speaker 4: The wrong genre because I used to live in a
[8:36] Speaker 4: romantic Hallmark movie. So I need to get it together.
[8:38] Speaker 4: But yeah, it balance, it is balanced. And yeah, but
[8:43] Speaker 4: I would say I think it's better to be by
[8:47] Speaker 4: yourself than with bad people.
[8:50] Speaker 3: Well I think that's absolutely true. No one should be
[8:53] Speaker 3: with bad people.
[8:55] Speaker 1: You joke.
[8:55] Speaker 3: But I you know, there are a couple of Facebook
[8:57] Speaker 3: groups I'm in that pertain to dating, and I will
[8:59] Speaker 3: see sometimes that are like this man asked me for
[9:03] Speaker 3: a second date.
[9:03] Speaker 1: Is that a red flag?
[9:04] Speaker 3: And I'm going girl girl interest is okay?
[9:11] Speaker 1: Right right?
[9:13] Speaker 2: Yeah?
[9:13] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no, no, I'm in. I'm in those groups too. Yeah,
[9:16] Speaker 4: I'm And I'm the person you're plying. Yes, run the BLOCKHM,
[9:20] Speaker 4: call the police.
[9:23] Speaker 1: Connection is good. We like connection.
[9:25] Speaker 3: We just you know, just just try to do our
[9:28] Speaker 3: best to make sure it's healthy. And if we conclude
[9:31] Speaker 3: that it's not, then we can separate or just distance
[9:33] Speaker 3: ourselves a bit, but like we do need that. We
[9:36] Speaker 3: need connection, we need friendship, we need relationship, we need communities.
[9:39] Speaker 3: So that's that's my cultiest thing.
[9:41] Speaker 4: Okay, great, Well, the only man I'm interested in talking
[9:43] Speaker 4: to is Prince Harry about escaping the royal family. So
[9:46] Speaker 4: if anybody has the hookup, let us know. And for now,
[9:50] Speaker 4: let's talk to lez.
[9:51] Speaker 1: Let's do it.
[10:04] Speaker 3: We left off last week talking about how you have
[10:06] Speaker 3: this bombshell dropped on you that pastor Joshua, who you'd
[10:10] Speaker 3: been hearing about for months.
[10:12] Speaker 1: Is this amazing person.
[10:14] Speaker 4: Just annoying off Yeah, formerly annoying opposition of like I'm
[10:19] Speaker 4: supposed to meditating fast as much as him. Now we
[10:21] Speaker 4: realize he's actually Jesus.
[10:23] Speaker 3: In prison, Yeah, in Korea for sexual assault. But don't
[10:29] Speaker 3: worry because he didn't do it.
[10:31] Speaker 2: It's totally chill. Yeah, yeah, he didn't do it.
[10:34] Speaker 1: That was just persecution.
[10:35] Speaker 4: Yeah, what is your response, Like, what's going on in
[10:39] Speaker 4: your head when they dropped this on you?
[10:41] Speaker 2: Yeah? So this is before I moved in with them,
[10:43] Speaker 2: This is when i'd just come back from Europe with
[10:46] Speaker 2: my friends and spent the whole time, of course being
[10:50] Speaker 2: a widow and was like getting up praying every morning
[10:55] Speaker 2: at five am. They're sleeping in because they're normal, and
[10:58] Speaker 2: all I wanted to talk about was God and Jesus
[11:01] Speaker 2: in the Bible, and they're just trying to have fun,
[11:03] Speaker 2: you know, exploring them all. And so I came back
[11:10] Speaker 2: and I'd missed them. They'd missed me, evidently, and they
[11:16] Speaker 2: wanted to tell me everything, you know. And the whole
[11:19] Speaker 2: time that I was in Europe, they maintained a really
[11:21] Speaker 2: strong connection with me. They would call me, they would
[11:24] Speaker 2: email me, and they also put me in touch with
[11:27] Speaker 2: the local group in London, and I spent time with them,
[11:29] Speaker 2: and it was comforting to me because I felt at
[11:33] Speaker 2: that point so divorced from everything outside of that group.
[11:37] Speaker 2: It just didn't feel like it was important or like
[11:41] Speaker 2: I just didn't relate to it anymore. I didn't fit
[11:43] Speaker 2: in that world. I wanted to fear around these people
[11:45] Speaker 2: that I had been getting to know and slowly aligning
[11:49] Speaker 2: myself with. I come back and yeah, they tell me.
[11:55] Speaker 2: I think this was over the course of a few
[11:57] Speaker 2: Bible studies, but the first bombshell they drop is, yes,
[12:00] Speaker 2: our beloved Pastor Joshua is actually in prison, because you know,
[12:05] Speaker 2: he's been persecuted for many years because he has this
[12:09] Speaker 2: very strong faith. And basically Satan used these women to
[12:14] Speaker 2: bring false accusations against him, that they had been raped,
[12:19] Speaker 2: and it was just all salacious lies, and they did
[12:23] Speaker 2: a test and they proved that it never happened.
[12:26] Speaker 1: This is what they're saying to you.
[12:27] Speaker 2: Correct, correct, Yes, categorically not true in reality. Yeah, And
[12:32] Speaker 2: so I a few things going on, obviously, being a
[12:36] Speaker 2: much younger, much more naive person who has no idea
[12:39] Speaker 2: about the nature of sexual assault claims and how true
[12:42] Speaker 2: they normally are. And why would you make a claim
[12:46] Speaker 2: like that unless something horrible had happened to you and
[12:50] Speaker 2: you were just trying to find justice. Why would you
[12:52] Speaker 2: make something up like that? What is there? Again? I
[12:56] Speaker 2: didn't know about believing women. All I knew about what
[12:59] Speaker 2: was you believe the authority figures in the church, which again,
[13:04] Speaker 2: obviously I don't align myself with that way of thinking anymore.
[13:07] Speaker 2: But I trusted these women. They were women, and over
[13:13] Speaker 2: time they had been telling me about this incredible, beautiful person,
[13:18] Speaker 2: including stories of his childhood, including stories of his mother.
[13:21] Speaker 2: They really humanized this man to me well before they
[13:23] Speaker 2: told me that he was being persecuted. Add to that,
[13:26] Speaker 2: I didn't really know much about South Korea or its culture.
[13:30] Speaker 2: I didn't know how well accepted Christianity was over there.
[13:33] Speaker 2: I just knew it was a country that I didn't
[13:36] Speaker 2: know much about, and I'd grown up with, you know,
[13:38] Speaker 2: an understanding that overseas as a general sweeping term, people
[13:42] Speaker 2: have persecuted for their faith all the time, because we
[13:46] Speaker 2: love Christians love of persecutionary they do.
[13:49] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's so convenient. It is so, isn't it.
[13:53] Speaker 3: And yeah, they told you not to google him when
[13:55] Speaker 3: they told you this information.
[13:57] Speaker 1: They didn't want you to look it up.
[13:58] Speaker 3: Correct, it had to come through the narrative and their
[14:01] Speaker 3: framing or it was satanic basically, right.
[14:04] Speaker 2: Exactly, and like, which sounds crazy, right, Like it sounds like,
[14:08] Speaker 2: oh my god, that's such an obvious tell. But back
[14:11] Speaker 2: then it was what twenty twenty eleven, I was not
[14:15] Speaker 2: chronically online like we all are nowadays. I didn't know
[14:19] Speaker 2: the name of the church because they had their own
[14:21] Speaker 2: name for their own church in Canberra, and I didn't
[14:24] Speaker 2: even know it was connected to like a larger church.
[14:27] Speaker 2: And you know, it sounds so creepy that they said,
[14:31] Speaker 2: don't look it up immediately, you'd want to look it up, right,
[14:34] Speaker 2: But the way that they've presented it to me, and
[14:36] Speaker 2: again in the context of they've earned my trust and
[14:39] Speaker 2: they've cut me off from the outside, was you know,
[14:42] Speaker 2: if you look at slander, if you look at Satan's lies,
[14:46] Speaker 2: you're harming your own spirit.
[14:48] Speaker 1: Spiritual suicide they called it.
[14:50] Speaker 2: Correct.
[14:51] Speaker 3: Oh my yes, googling is spiritual suicide, taking your spiritual
[14:56] Speaker 3: self and just killing it and ruining the that's right,
[15:00] Speaker 3: secret revelation that the world is trying to take you.
[15:04] Speaker 2: Exactly. It's like drinking poison. It's like putting a gun
[15:08] Speaker 2: to your head in the spirit. And so I was like, well,
[15:09] Speaker 2: I don't want to hurt my spirit. I don't want
[15:12] Speaker 2: to dirty it with these satanic lies. Yeah, and again
[15:17] Speaker 2: talking about.
[15:17] Speaker 4: It now, I'm like, this is so insane. We all
[15:19] Speaker 4: know that we all feel that way. Don't worry. That's
[15:22] Speaker 4: the way it does.
[15:23] Speaker 3: Yeah, you had been primed and indoctrinated and manipulated, like
[15:29] Speaker 3: literally them strategizing together how to get you to believe
[15:33] Speaker 3: at the appropriate pace.
[15:34] Speaker 2: Correct.
[15:35] Speaker 1: He also has or wants wives.
[15:39] Speaker 3: Yeah, explain the brides because this is an important turning point.
[15:45] Speaker 2: I feel it's quite important. So how would I start
[15:49] Speaker 2: with the theology of it? A very loose term for
[15:52] Speaker 2: what I'm about to explain, but so basically the why.
[15:55] Speaker 2: And again this was presented much further down the track.
[15:58] Speaker 2: This was one of the biggest secrets. This was where
[16:01] Speaker 2: a lot of like biblical cherry picking and timelines and
[16:06] Speaker 2: you know, nostrodamist prophecies and all this stuff came into play.
[16:10] Speaker 2: And they explained that, you know, and we're familiar with, right,
[16:13] Speaker 2: the Old Testament in the Bible is where God was
[16:18] Speaker 2: almost like a master in relation to human beings. That
[16:21] Speaker 2: you know, when he described human beings, he said, this
[16:24] Speaker 2: is my servant, Moses, this is my servant job. So
[16:28] Speaker 2: we were slaves in relation to God. And then Jesus
[16:31] Speaker 2: came in the New Testament and he elevated the relationship
[16:36] Speaker 2: of humans to God, to children, this is my son,
[16:40] Speaker 2: you know, and and he afforded, you know, according to
[16:44] Speaker 2: that theology, afforded all of humanity that right, and then
[16:48] Speaker 2: along comes this dude from Korea and he he's set
[16:52] Speaker 2: the conditions, He's laid the foundation, and this was where
[16:56] Speaker 2: they're setting conditions came in he set such extreme conditions
[16:58] Speaker 2: so that you know, according to their law, he created
[17:02] Speaker 2: the conditions where God could enact the Second Coming through him,
[17:06] Speaker 2: and he set the conditions to elevate us to the
[17:09] Speaker 2: position of a bride before God, which is almost like
[17:14] Speaker 2: the fulfillment of you know, what God had intended for humanity.
[17:18] Speaker 3: So this isn't a metaphorical like I'm spiritually married to God.
[17:23] Speaker 3: Because Joshua himself represents Christ is Christ is the Second Coming,
[17:30] Speaker 3: is better.
[17:30] Speaker 1: Than Christ because he's better.
[17:32] Speaker 4: That's better, is better than because he didn't get crucified.
[17:36] Speaker 4: He's still alive, right, right, So now you're with Christ
[17:41] Speaker 4: two point oh yes, And they're saying he actually specifically
[17:47] Speaker 4: likes you God essentially Joshua and.
[17:52] Speaker 3: Liz, who was identified in a public place as a
[17:56] Speaker 3: young beautiful woman.
[17:58] Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, but he he sees her spirit and you're like, yeah,
[18:03] Speaker 4: oh my God, I'm chosen, Yes exactly.
[18:06] Speaker 2: And when this was first introduced to me, it was
[18:08] Speaker 2: like he is who Jesus works through And that took
[18:12] Speaker 2: me a while to get my head around because you know,
[18:14] Speaker 2: sounds like blasphemy, right, And I can explain the weird
[18:18] Speaker 2: coincidence that happened there but then down the track, like
[18:21] Speaker 2: maybe a year down the track, that were like, actually,
[18:24] Speaker 2: he's not who Jesus uses. He is better than Jesus.
[18:27] Speaker 2: Like you said, Jesus failed in his mission. You know,
[18:30] Speaker 2: he died and.
[18:32] Speaker 4: Okay, so crazy Jesus failed in his mission of yeah, wow,
[18:49] Speaker 4: you're living with these women at this point.
[18:51] Speaker 1: Correct.
[18:51] Speaker 2: Yes, So when they tell me about the fact that
[18:55] Speaker 2: he is basically that, you know, the second coming of Christ,
[18:58] Speaker 2: and I go away and pray about it because that's
[19:00] Speaker 2: what they always say. But what you know, you don't
[19:03] Speaker 2: realize at the time is that if you're going away
[19:06] Speaker 2: and praying about it, they're telling you to do that
[19:08] Speaker 2: because they've already implanted a framework in your mind through
[19:11] Speaker 2: which you interpret the world and your inner thoughts and
[19:14] Speaker 2: feeling such a good cod sensation.
[19:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
[19:18] Speaker 2: And then so you go away and pray, and all
[19:19] Speaker 2: you're doing is reinforcing the messaging that has been super
[19:23] Speaker 2: imposed on your psyche. And so it's really like this
[19:27] Speaker 2: self surveilling kind of faith. That's what indoctrination is, right.
[19:30] Speaker 2: You're like, it's God, it's big Brother in your head,
[19:33] Speaker 2: and I'm praying to God and I'm interpreting everything through
[19:36] Speaker 2: the way that I've been indoctrinated.
[19:38] Speaker 3: Looking for signs exactly and finding them everywhere, which is
[19:42] Speaker 3: so annoying.
[19:43] Speaker 2: It's so annoying. Really yeah, this is so really inconvenient.
[19:48] Speaker 3: I'm so similar to my mom, Yeah, really yeah, because
[19:51] Speaker 3: my mom was targeted by a man at a Mormon dance,
[19:55] Speaker 3: a singles dance, and right already from the beginning, there
[19:58] Speaker 3: was like a really free thing where he looked like
[20:01] Speaker 3: a man she had dreamed about and she had had
[20:04] Speaker 3: and she was And this is through the framework of Mormonism,
[20:06] Speaker 3: where there's a lot of sign interpretation and look and
[20:10] Speaker 3: praying for a feeling and that kind of thing. So
[20:13] Speaker 3: she already has that framework, and then she has this
[20:15] Speaker 3: dream that feels really infused with meaning, and then she
[20:19] Speaker 3: meets this guy and it's game over, right, like freaking
[20:23] Speaker 3: game over, and she I can't now I'm blinking on specifics,
[20:26] Speaker 3: but she definitely like prayed about whether he was really
[20:29] Speaker 3: the one, and like was looking for some kind of sign.
[20:32] Speaker 3: And as we know what we look for, we will
[20:35] Speaker 3: find if we look hard enough, Yes, but if we
[20:38] Speaker 3: don't understand that going into that, then you know we're
[20:42] Speaker 3: just going to see the magic and that's all we're going.
[20:44] Speaker 1: To see exactly.
[20:45] Speaker 3: So yeah, can you tell us briefly about your the
[20:48] Speaker 3: prismatic light coincidence that sort of solidified your feeling that
[20:53] Speaker 3: this was this magic was real.
[20:56] Speaker 2: Yes, So, like there were two things that well two
[20:59] Speaker 2: key instance that stuck with me that were like, oh wow,
[21:01] Speaker 2: this is real. So the first one was the prismatic
[21:05] Speaker 2: lighte and that was, you know, when I was in
[21:07] Speaker 2: my old church. I remember before I joined, I remember
[21:11] Speaker 2: praying and kind of having this almost vision, but it
[21:14] Speaker 2: was in my head, so really was just my imagination
[21:17] Speaker 2: of like this kind of waterfall landing on my head
[21:19] Speaker 2: as I prayed, and it was like this, yeah, like
[21:22] Speaker 2: very colorful rainbow like water that was splashing over me,
[21:27] Speaker 2: and it was my Christian brain interpreted that is like
[21:29] Speaker 2: oh the Holy Spirit. And then I think it was
[21:32] Speaker 2: that day another woman came up to me after the
[21:35] Speaker 2: service and said, hey, I had this vision of you,
[21:37] Speaker 2: and she described what I'd seen in my head, which
[21:41] Speaker 2: look at you. There are so many ways you could
[21:43] Speaker 2: interpret it. I'd like to hear your thoughts, but I
[21:45] Speaker 2: feel like there's a lot of symbology that we all share,
[21:49] Speaker 2: you know, religious symbology, and maybe that was just a coincidence.
[21:53] Speaker 2: I don't I don't know.
[21:54] Speaker 3: For all we know, there could have been a rainbow
[21:56] Speaker 3: that morning that you both saw. I like did a
[22:00] Speaker 3: gesture that, like, you know, so many subconscious things going on,
[22:04] Speaker 3: and I rings out old times like who freaking knows?
[22:05] Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, yes, absolutely, so I was like, wow, that's wild,
[22:10] Speaker 2: but didn't really think too much of it. Months later,
[22:12] Speaker 2: I've met these women and someone in who comes from
[22:16] Speaker 2: like Korea, who was this amazing artist. She paints me
[22:21] Speaker 2: and surprises me and some other girls with paintings of ourselves,
[22:25] Speaker 2: and they are beautiful portraits, and for mine, not everybody else's.
[22:32] Speaker 2: Everyone else's was just like this gorgeous likeness of them
[22:35] Speaker 2: and like a different colored background. But mine had that
[22:38] Speaker 2: waterfall kind of coming over my head and it had
[22:41] Speaker 2: sparkles in it, and it was, you know, and I
[22:44] Speaker 2: was praying and my head was down and my eyes
[22:45] Speaker 2: were closed and it was very distinct, and I immediately
[22:50] Speaker 2: was like, that is what I saw, and that's what
[22:52] Speaker 2: someone else told me they saw, and it was this
[22:54] Speaker 2: wild like, oh my goodness, God is telling me he
[22:57] Speaker 2: wants me to be here. Second coincidence and again one
[23:02] Speaker 2: of many, because you do, like you said, interpret the
[23:04] Speaker 2: whole world through signs. I just saw signs everywhere because
[23:08] Speaker 2: that's how I was set up to think. So this
[23:10] Speaker 2: second time, they've just dropped the ultimate bombshell of like this, dude,
[23:14] Speaker 2: is the second coming. Go home and pray about it.
[23:17] Speaker 2: I do. I locked myself in the room for a
[23:19] Speaker 2: couple of hours. I'm praying in tears because they tell
[23:22] Speaker 2: you to do that, which is weird. So I felt
[23:27] Speaker 2: inspired at a certain point to get up and go
[23:30] Speaker 2: to the bookshelf at my parents' house and take this book,
[23:34] Speaker 2: which was written by a Christian self identifying prophet, and
[23:39] Speaker 2: just open it and read the first page that I opened.
[23:41] Speaker 2: And I opened it random page. First thing that I
[23:44] Speaker 2: see is the time has come. God has called his
[23:47] Speaker 2: brides to stand up or something like that.
[23:49] Speaker 1: And the signs chance.
[23:53] Speaker 2: I do know, I know, right, Like how do you
[23:56] Speaker 2: how do you get told to go in pray and
[23:58] Speaker 2: you get that? Yeah? Like immediately I was like, oh,
[24:02] Speaker 2: it's absolutely game over, Like you know, this is it?
[24:05] Speaker 2: God's top given me the message I asked for her.
[24:10] Speaker 3: Yeah, And so then can you explain what an evergreen
[24:14] Speaker 3: and a faith.
[24:15] Speaker 1: Star are yes.
[24:17] Speaker 2: So that is the term that is used to describe
[24:21] Speaker 2: what I thought or interpreted to me at the beginning
[24:24] Speaker 2: as like a nun, but the JMS version of a nun.
[24:28] Speaker 2: So they were interchangeable terms. They both essentially meant the
[24:32] Speaker 2: same thing. But it's basically, you don't get married, you
[24:35] Speaker 2: dedicate your life to the church, and yeah, you just
[24:39] Speaker 2: live like this very kind of separate your holy life.
[24:43] Speaker 2: And I was writing such a wave of like spiritual
[24:47] Speaker 2: euphoria at that time, and I was when I heard
[24:49] Speaker 2: about it, I was like, I want to be that
[24:51] Speaker 2: Like I also just you know, I was still recovering
[24:56] Speaker 2: from anorexia. I didn't have any like sex drive to
[25:01] Speaker 2: speak of. I wasn't interested in dating anybody. You know.
[25:05] Speaker 2: I'd grown up thinking, oh, you get married, you have
[25:07] Speaker 2: kids and whatever. But it looked like that the concept
[25:10] Speaker 2: of that seems so silly in light of what I'd
[25:12] Speaker 2: just learned that. I was like, oh my God, Like,
[25:15] Speaker 2: why would I do something as worldly as that when
[25:18] Speaker 2: I could live, you know, this super spiritual life, never
[25:22] Speaker 2: get married, you know, never have to deal with all
[25:24] Speaker 2: that stuff. And so that's kind of how it was
[25:27] Speaker 2: presented to me, and it was like, you are everyone's
[25:30] Speaker 2: the bride of Christ in this history quote unquote, but
[25:33] Speaker 2: evergreens or faith stars. You are like the next level
[25:38] Speaker 2: kind of of brides. And a lot of cults use
[25:41] Speaker 2: this sense of like elitism right to get you to
[25:43] Speaker 2: buy into something because you feel special. I feel like
[25:47] Speaker 2: you've been chosen. Everyone wants to feel like that. So
[25:50] Speaker 2: that's that's essentially what that was. What I didn't realize,
[25:53] Speaker 2: you know, and what I would come to learn down
[25:55] Speaker 2: the track, was that it meant that you had to
[25:58] Speaker 2: be a lot closer to thee of the group Youngsok,
[26:02] Speaker 2: and I was encouraged to start writing to him, and
[26:04] Speaker 2: so I would write letters to him and they would
[26:06] Speaker 2: be translated to Korean and then sent to his as
[26:09] Speaker 2: I learned, sent to his prison cell. And you were
[26:13] Speaker 2: encouraged to like write to him really warmly and make
[26:16] Speaker 2: him feel loved and less alone. And you know he's
[26:19] Speaker 2: going through this persecution, so you know, try and put
[26:22] Speaker 2: yourself in his head and think of what he would
[26:24] Speaker 2: need to hear from you. And yeah, basically like keep
[26:28] Speaker 2: him company by writing him letters.
[26:30] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like you're his girlfriend or something like exactly
[26:33] Speaker 4: keep him company in jail, and it's so disappointing to
[26:36] Speaker 4: see what you would write compared to what he would
[26:39] Speaker 4: write you back.
[26:39] Speaker 1: It's so heartbreaking.
[26:42] Speaker 2: So obviously I knew him as Pastor Joshua when I
[26:45] Speaker 2: was just starting to learn the Bible studies. But when
[26:48] Speaker 2: they told me his real name, I learned that that
[26:51] Speaker 2: was kind of a pseudonym for him. But he was
[26:52] Speaker 2: actually called Jong Yongsok, which is why the group is
[26:55] Speaker 2: called JMS. But it also means Jesus morning Star.
[26:59] Speaker 1: Got it.
[27:00] Speaker 3: So if we use these names interchangeably, we're still talking
[27:03] Speaker 3: about the same man who is the god on earth.
[27:07] Speaker 1: Basically, yes, okay, great, wonderful.
[27:10] Speaker 3: Yeah, you start exchanging letters, his letters start getting.
[27:15] Speaker 1: Creepier, the asks of you start.
[27:17] Speaker 3: Getting creepier photos where you're in swimsuits, and just like
[27:25] Speaker 3: the bait and switch of this is just so extreme,
[27:30] Speaker 3: Like you think that it's like this group of women
[27:33] Speaker 3: who you know, you might get to be a nun
[27:37] Speaker 3: in a group of women who are doing Bible study,
[27:40] Speaker 3: but then just kidding, actually it's run by a man
[27:43] Speaker 3: who's convicted of rape, and actually you're supposed to be
[27:47] Speaker 3: one of his like brides potentially, like what a freaking
[27:50] Speaker 3: bait and switch.
[27:51] Speaker 1: It's crazy, and it's twenty twelve. So there's this whole
[27:56] Speaker 1: end of the world it's about to be twenty times.
[27:58] Speaker 1: There's this whole end of the world narrative of prophecy
[28:01] Speaker 1: written into it, where you were like, I don't give
[28:02] Speaker 1: a shit, Like you're thinking about quitting college. You were like,
[28:05] Speaker 1: I have to fucking save people, Like we're running out
[28:08] Speaker 1: of time. It's about this is all and a very
[28:11] Speaker 1: like a pressure cooker. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I kind of
[28:14] Speaker 1: forgot about that element. Yeah. So yeah, you're in the world.
[28:17] Speaker 1: You're tripping out at the time.
[28:20] Speaker 2: Yes, it's like, no, you're right, there is like so
[28:23] Speaker 2: much going on and my little brain is having such
[28:26] Speaker 2: a hard time Yeah, processing it all. But it helped that,
[28:29] Speaker 2: you know, to me at the time that I had
[28:32] Speaker 2: this structure in my life where I was told what
[28:36] Speaker 2: was right and wrong. I was given this binary way
[28:38] Speaker 2: to view the world that helped me compartmentalize and have
[28:42] Speaker 2: a sense of certainty about what I was supposed to do,
[28:45] Speaker 2: who I was supposed to be, how I was supposed
[28:47] Speaker 2: to spend my time. So, yeah, all that was happening.
[28:50] Speaker 2: The Nostrodramist prophecy was being preached about in the sermons.
[28:53] Speaker 2: You know, the end of the world is happening in
[28:55] Speaker 2: twenty twelve, and they talked about it like this is
[28:58] Speaker 2: the rapture, but the way that they did it was
[29:01] Speaker 2: so sneaky. They were like, it's a spiritual rapture, so
[29:04] Speaker 2: no one else will know you've raptured, but you'll know
[29:07] Speaker 2: inside of you.
[29:08] Speaker 1: And people in Korea have started already. Ps. Yeah, correct, what.
[29:14] Speaker 2: Does that mean?
[29:15] Speaker 3: They're just spiritually ascending invisibly inside but their bodies stay.
[29:19] Speaker 2: Wow.
[29:19] Speaker 1: Yes, that was like a confusing and very very smart.
[29:24] Speaker 2: Very smart, because if you're looking at each other going
[29:26] Speaker 2: have you.
[29:26] Speaker 1: Are you yeah? Y?
[29:31] Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, I need to hear about finally going to
[29:35] Speaker 3: Korea with a group of women and meeting this man
[29:39] Speaker 3: in person in prison.
[29:41] Speaker 2: Yeah. So he Jong or JMS had written to me
[29:46] Speaker 2: and said come to Korea and visit me, and that
[29:48] Speaker 2: was like the ultimate honor. And if he says that,
[29:50] Speaker 2: you know you have to go. And a couple of
[29:54] Speaker 2: other people had received a letter as well like that.
[29:56] Speaker 2: And by that time, obviously I'd been told that I
[29:59] Speaker 2: was an evergreen, a faith star, and we were all
[30:03] Speaker 2: going to go to career and visit him, and you know,
[30:05] Speaker 2: visit just the compound that they have out in rural
[30:09] Speaker 2: South Korea that is dedicated to him and the church.
[30:13] Speaker 2: So there is a compound. Just to bring in another
[30:16] Speaker 2: little cult cliche. But something happened before I left, which
[30:22] Speaker 2: you know, was really one of the punctuation marks in
[30:25] Speaker 2: my experience. I'd moved out at this point, I'd moved
[30:27] Speaker 2: in with them.
[30:29] Speaker 3: And moved in with the girls from the group.
[30:32] Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, so we'd all found a bigger house together.
[30:37] Speaker 2: We all moved in. There were probably about eight of us,
[30:39] Speaker 2: I think at the time, it was seven in this
[30:41] Speaker 2: big house. And so I know I was what nineteen
[30:44] Speaker 2: at the time, so it just first time I'd ever
[30:47] Speaker 2: lived out of home. I'd made the mistake of leaving
[30:49] Speaker 2: some print outs of a sermon under my bed, and
[30:53] Speaker 2: Mum must have been cleaning up my old room and
[30:55] Speaker 2: she came across them, and she was already suspicious about
[30:57] Speaker 2: this group, which made me distance myself further in made
[31:00] Speaker 2: her more anxious. So it was kind of like this
[31:02] Speaker 2: vicious cycle. But and so I wasn't really advised or
[31:07] Speaker 2: allowed to see her very much or see my family.
[31:09] Speaker 2: Munch because they were concerned that she would, you know,
[31:13] Speaker 2: make my faith a bit more shaky. She destabilized me
[31:16] Speaker 2: visited them maybe like once a week to go have
[31:19] Speaker 2: lunch or something. Part of it was, you know, because
[31:22] Speaker 2: it's my family and I you know, wanted to see them,
[31:24] Speaker 2: but I think a larger reason was that they knew
[31:27] Speaker 2: that if they fully disallowed me from seeing my family,
[31:32] Speaker 2: then they would escalate and they would, yeah, you know,
[31:35] Speaker 2: become more of a threat to them. And so yeah,
[31:39] Speaker 2: she was dropping me off back at the house, the
[31:41] Speaker 2: group house at one point, and she looked quite anxious
[31:45] Speaker 2: and I didn't know why, but when she stopped the
[31:47] Speaker 2: car outside of the house, she was like, hey, Lizzie,
[31:51] Speaker 2: there's something that I want to share with you, Like,
[31:53] Speaker 2: you know, I found some papers under your bed and
[31:55] Speaker 2: I looked it up and she pulls this stack of
[31:59] Speaker 2: print out to that she done like she's printed, and
[32:02] Speaker 2: immediately I knew what it was because I knew what
[32:04] Speaker 2: the you know, the quote unquote lies were about this group.
[32:08] Speaker 2: I knew that she'd found out what the group was.
[32:11] Speaker 2: And because I'd been told you can never look at
[32:14] Speaker 2: this material. It is literally the equivalent of spiritual suicide.
[32:18] Speaker 2: And I've been told that she was a threat and
[32:21] Speaker 2: that she was going to try Satan was going to
[32:22] Speaker 2: use her to try and get me to stop believing
[32:24] Speaker 2: in the truth. I immediately I had this absolute fear response.
[32:29] Speaker 2: I was like, get those papers away from me. I
[32:31] Speaker 2: don't want to see them. You don't know what you're
[32:33] Speaker 2: talking about. And I ran out of the car. I
[32:36] Speaker 2: was so like, so terrified of seeing what was there,
[32:40] Speaker 2: slammed the door, ran inside. My poor mother, like what
[32:45] Speaker 2: would that have been like for her? And you know,
[32:47] Speaker 2: I told my leader about it, and she was like, well,
[32:49] Speaker 2: you know, I kind of expect that this would happen
[32:51] Speaker 2: at some point. You're obviously going to need to keep
[32:53] Speaker 2: your distance from your moum. Satan's using her. And then
[32:57] Speaker 2: at some point later that day she let me know
[33:00] Speaker 2: my dad and my mom had both come back. So
[33:02] Speaker 2: obviously Mom had sat there, gone home, got dad and
[33:05] Speaker 2: thought we need to get her out now. So both
[33:09] Speaker 2: my parents come back. She was just like, go hide
[33:12] Speaker 2: in the closet, like get out of you will handle it, wow.
[33:16] Speaker 2: And so I'm hiding in the closet and my dad
[33:19] Speaker 2: knocks on the door and they get one of the
[33:22] Speaker 2: Korean leaders to open the door, and I can hear voices,
[33:25] Speaker 2: but I can't make out much, but it sounds like
[33:27] Speaker 2: Dad's upset, he's escalating. They're staying kind of like quiet,
[33:32] Speaker 2: and then they closed the door on him and he's
[33:35] Speaker 2: yelling out for me. And it was such a horrible
[33:39] Speaker 2: experience because I was like, I don't I'm so scared
[33:42] Speaker 2: of my dad, and I'm so scared of my mom
[33:44] Speaker 2: because like Satan's working through them, but also like they're
[33:48] Speaker 2: worried about me, and you know there's a part of
[33:51] Speaker 2: me that misses them, and you know I'm putting them
[33:55] Speaker 2: through this distress. And it was just awful. It was awful. Yeah,
[34:01] Speaker 2: and then there was also this sense of like excitement
[34:03] Speaker 2: of like, oh my god, I'm moving through this wild
[34:05] Speaker 2: biblical story, like yeah.
[34:08] Speaker 4: You're like the main character and like the New Bible embarrassing. Yeah,
[34:13] Speaker 4: no looking back, but like that's how it's being frammed.
[34:17] Speaker 4: You're one of the You're one of the main things.
[34:19] Speaker 4: So to just like ignore your parents for an afternoon
[34:23] Speaker 4: isn't really that big of.
[34:23] Speaker 3: A d You're chosen by the Lord. Yeah, and it's
[34:26] Speaker 3: the end of days. Like awful, hard, but you know, worth.
[34:31] Speaker 2: It necessary right and like a necessary sacrifice, and and
[34:36] Speaker 2: then eventually they just they left. The car idled for
[34:39] Speaker 2: a little bit. Then they left and they were like, Okay,
[34:41] Speaker 2: we need to get you to career, like like now.
[34:43] Speaker 2: And so I remember them when Dad came to the
[34:47] Speaker 2: door and he was trying to talk to them and
[34:49] Speaker 2: ask them where I was. This head leader pretended not
[34:54] Speaker 2: to speak any English, and so it was just this
[34:57] Speaker 2: way of effectively just bowering him from being able to
[35:00] Speaker 2: have any meaningful communication with us at the time, such
[35:03] Speaker 2: a cliche. We had a big van and they put
[35:05] Speaker 2: me in the back of the van and they threw
[35:08] Speaker 2: a blanket over me, and they were like, we're going
[35:10] Speaker 2: to drive you out of the state under cover, just
[35:12] Speaker 2: in case because your parents are still kind of hanging around.
[35:14] Speaker 2: We don't want to see where we're taking you. Drove
[35:17] Speaker 2: out of the state, stayed with some members in Sydney,
[35:20] Speaker 2: and then the next day was out light, so we
[35:23] Speaker 2: went out to Korea. And yeah, we went to visit
[35:27] Speaker 2: this man in prison.
[35:28] Speaker 4: And what was that like, I mean, you have a
[35:30] Speaker 4: whole impression of him. He walks in this is God
[35:33] Speaker 4: who what does he actually look like?
[35:35] Speaker 2: Well, I expected to have like this big spiritual experience,
[35:38] Speaker 2: you know when I saw him, because I was like,
[35:39] Speaker 2: this is like basically God, you know, or basically the
[35:42] Speaker 2: second coming of Christ emboddied. We were encouraged to like
[35:47] Speaker 2: dress up, make ourselves beautiful, because that was part of
[35:49] Speaker 2: the point of the group. Was like the way that
[35:51] Speaker 2: you should have glory to God, like we said.
[35:52] Speaker 1: Is yeah, you were nuns, but you were heart nuns.
[35:55] Speaker 2: Were hot nuns. Yeah yeah, ok, yes exactly, so, so
[36:00] Speaker 2: make up full face of makeup, my head leaders like
[36:02] Speaker 2: fideling with my hair, trying to make it perfect. I
[36:04] Speaker 2: didn't realize she was like effectively showcasing us to this man,
[36:08] Speaker 2: like look at the fish I caught basically.
[36:10] Speaker 1: And he was he going to get out of prison
[36:13] Speaker 1: at some point?
[36:14] Speaker 3: Was that yes, yes, So this isn't just like for
[36:17] Speaker 3: a visual thing, like the idea is he's going to
[36:19] Speaker 3: get out and then have his brides.
[36:22] Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct. And he already had bikini pictures of me
[36:26] Speaker 2: and you know, like of all of us essentially, and
[36:29] Speaker 2: he had already written to me saying like he strokes
[36:32] Speaker 2: the pictures on the wall of his cell, like that's
[36:34] Speaker 2: the corresspond I received from him. Allegedly, and there was
[36:38] Speaker 2: this weird like I again very naive, like, did not
[36:42] Speaker 2: think this was ominous. It didn't think it was as
[36:44] Speaker 2: sinister as it really was, because I was that naive,
[36:48] Speaker 2: and I really thought this is some giant spiritual metaphor,
[36:50] Speaker 2: which sounds insane looking back, but that's that's kind of
[36:54] Speaker 2: what so many of us really believed because we were
[36:56] Speaker 2: so you know, earnest and sincere in beliefs and our faith,
[37:02] Speaker 2: it didn't even cross half our minds that this was
[37:04] Speaker 2: something more than that. And yeah, anyway, so went in
[37:09] Speaker 2: and we were taken in by a prison guard. His
[37:12] Speaker 2: second in command also accompanied us in there, who is
[37:15] Speaker 2: actually now in prison as well for grooming, as I
[37:18] Speaker 2: understand it. But she takes us in week head leaders
[37:21] Speaker 2: on the other side, there were a few of us,
[37:23] Speaker 2: two women and a man who were visiting him, some
[37:26] Speaker 2: of us for the first time. And then he gets
[37:30] Speaker 2: brought in by a guard on the other side of
[37:31] Speaker 2: this lexiglass wall. This is like out in Dejen in
[37:34] Speaker 2: South Korea.
[37:35] Speaker 4: It's very Warren Jeves, you know, when he gets the
[37:37] Speaker 4: followers brought to him jail.
[37:39] Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, it's absolutely yes. So and he comes in
[37:43] Speaker 2: and he's ah, hello, hello, and he's just like this
[37:46] Speaker 2: very small, very old Korean man wearing a tracksuit, you know,
[37:51] Speaker 2: prison track suit. They definitely made him look a lot
[37:55] Speaker 2: taller in his photos and a lot younger, and not
[37:59] Speaker 2: that bad matters at all. But I but, but.
[38:02] Speaker 4: But it's a little bit of a It is like
[38:04] Speaker 4: meeting your hinge date in real life, not your god
[38:08] Speaker 4: a catfish.
[38:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, But I'm.
[38:11] Speaker 4: Sure the cognitive dissonance is like, Okay, he's old and
[38:14] Speaker 4: the smaller who cares him still exactly yeah.
[38:16] Speaker 2: Art of percent, Like that's not the point, but I
[38:18] Speaker 2: think you know. But also when you bring into to
[38:21] Speaker 2: play the fact that you know how you are physically
[38:23] Speaker 2: was meant to reflect how you are spiritually.
[38:25] Speaker 4: Right that applied to women only and.
[38:31] Speaker 2: For us. And by the way, I know that I
[38:34] Speaker 2: seem like I'm speaking lightly about this stuff and I joke,
[38:37] Speaker 2: but I know you get it in that like humor.
[38:40] Speaker 2: It helps me talk about this sort of thing because
[38:42] Speaker 2: there is so many elements of the absurd to this
[38:45] Speaker 2: story and to the whole premise of JMS. But I
[38:48] Speaker 2: don't mean to trivialize the horror of what who he
[38:52] Speaker 2: was and what the group was, and I know you
[38:54] Speaker 2: don't either, but I just want to clarify for any listeners, like,
[38:56] Speaker 2: I don't think any of this is a joke. Yeah,
[38:59] Speaker 2: it's terrific. I've been healing for many, many years, but
[39:04] Speaker 2: I find it so much easier to find the humor
[39:06] Speaker 2: in it as morbid as it seems. So I hope
[39:09] Speaker 2: that's okay, And I don't want to offend anyone. No,
[39:12] Speaker 2: that's how we feel. Yeah, I feel like that's the
[39:14] Speaker 2: spirit of your podcast is like, yeah, you know you
[39:16] Speaker 2: can see that the insanity of it all as well.
[39:19] Speaker 2: You can break it down so well.
[39:21] Speaker 1: Thank you.
[39:21] Speaker 3: Yeah, so in your book, you just you have some
[39:25] Speaker 3: excerpts of letters he started sending you after that which
[39:27] Speaker 3: are quite graphic and yeah, gnarrowly and disgusting. And then
[39:33] Speaker 3: can you just walk us through how you started to
[39:37] Speaker 3: get sick and had to go to the hospital and
[39:39] Speaker 3: how that pleaded a role in your exit from the group.
[39:43] Speaker 2: So obviously, Madam in Prison, that was a wild experience.
[39:47] Speaker 2: Just to wrap that little piece up, like I was
[39:50] Speaker 2: supposed to be a really profound experience, and I left
[39:53] Speaker 2: feeling guilty that I hadn't felt more than I did.
[39:57] Speaker 2: It was just a very benign kind of like he
[39:59] Speaker 2: waved us and Korean a bit, and then time was
[40:02] Speaker 2: up and he was shuttled out. When I came back
[40:05] Speaker 2: to Australia, the intensity of it kicked up a lot.
[40:09] Speaker 2: It was twenty twelve. It was the year quote unquote
[40:12] Speaker 2: year of the Rapture. And the concept behind it was
[40:14] Speaker 2: we were supposed to perfect ourselves, you know, physically, spiritually everything.
[40:20] Speaker 2: It was not just what we did, but it was
[40:22] Speaker 2: also just taking relentless inventory and meticulous inventory of all
[40:26] Speaker 2: of our thoughts and feelings and emotions and kind of
[40:29] Speaker 2: self monitoring and trying to achieve this impossible standard of
[40:33] Speaker 2: perfection in order to rapture. His letters became more graphic
[40:39] Speaker 2: and explicit to me and to many other women. Obviously,
[40:42] Speaker 2: he was still in prison. He didn't come out until
[40:44] Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, and he is now back in prison for
[40:46] Speaker 2: the same.
[40:47] Speaker 4: Charges because he just kept doing it. Yeah, absolutely, as
[40:50] Speaker 4: soon as he got out down. Yeah, And so we
[40:54] Speaker 4: were sleeping very little. I was getting up. I mean,
[40:57] Speaker 4: we were supposed to only sleep four hours a night.
[41:00] Speaker 2: I was sleeping. I was sleeping four to six. Anyone
[41:03] Speaker 2: would struggle, right, But a lot of people were very puritanical,
[41:06] Speaker 2: and they were only four or less. The less you
[41:09] Speaker 2: can sleep, the better, and that's obviously very destabilizing, greatly
[41:13] Speaker 2: interrupts your critical thought.
[41:15] Speaker 1: And probably intentional.
[41:16] Speaker 2: Absolutely intentional, yes, yes, And so much of it was
[41:21] Speaker 2: we were worked insanely hard, and that's not unique to
[41:25] Speaker 2: that cult. It's common for most cults. And just this
[41:28] Speaker 2: sense of like busy work is very common. So it's
[41:32] Speaker 2: not necessarily meaningful work. It's repetitive work, it's boring work,
[41:37] Speaker 2: it's you know, the point of it isn't what job
[41:40] Speaker 2: you're doing. The point of it is just keeping you
[41:43] Speaker 2: kind of that you're doing a job mechanically moving along.
[41:48] Speaker 2: And then they started to like we were quote unquote
[41:52] Speaker 2: evangelizing a lot, so trying to recruit new women. That
[41:55] Speaker 2: was a very as I described in the book, really
[41:59] Speaker 2: targeted stritch hegic, scarily methodical process.
[42:03] Speaker 4: Yeah, and we have to point out just really quickly
[42:06] Speaker 4: here that like they tell you essentially like this is
[42:09] Speaker 4: what we were doing to you to get you into
[42:11] Speaker 4: the cast, and you're like, wait, yes, what I mean,
[42:15] Speaker 4: this is how we did it to you, And we
[42:16] Speaker 4: were like essentially pretending that we worshiped this way and
[42:18] Speaker 4: took all the pictures off the wall so that you
[42:20] Speaker 4: would like it and the German show and you're like what,
[42:24] Speaker 4: But it makes sense because you're like, of course they
[42:26] Speaker 4: had to kind of trick me to get me in
[42:27] Speaker 4: this group, because I wouldn't have believed it any other way,
[42:30] Speaker 4: and so now I have to do this to other people.
[42:32] Speaker 4: And the book just goes into the most amazing crevices
[42:37] Speaker 4: this process.
[42:37] Speaker 1: Ye, crevices, crevices.
[42:39] Speaker 2: That's a good one.
[42:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it does. Crevices.
[42:45] Speaker 4: Yeah, really gets because I don't I mean, I've just
[42:48] Speaker 4: never heard of them like really spelling out to one
[42:51] Speaker 4: of their devotees the exact way that they are.
[42:55] Speaker 1: It's true.
[42:55] Speaker 3: Usually people will realize that that's what happened, and then
[42:58] Speaker 3: they'll justify to themselves. And I feel like it's raere.
[43:00] Speaker 3: It's explicitly acknowledged like that.
[43:03] Speaker 1: Do you think that they knew like this was basically
[43:06] Speaker 1: sex trafficking or were they like, this is a spiritual program.
[43:09] Speaker 1: Do you know if they were both through?
[43:12] Speaker 2: I mean, it's such a good question. And I think
[43:16] Speaker 2: there is a really fine line in cults between victim
[43:18] Speaker 2: and perpetrator, and I touch on this a lot, because
[43:21] Speaker 2: I think it's something that a lot of us, the survivors,
[43:25] Speaker 2: are scared to kind of touch on, because you know,
[43:28] Speaker 2: there's there is such a fine line, especially in a
[43:30] Speaker 2: cult that's centered on grooming women, and everyone in cults,
[43:36] Speaker 2: almost unanimously, unless you're too young or too old or
[43:40] Speaker 2: incapacitated in some way, is charged with recruitment, like with
[43:44] Speaker 2: trying to save people. For most people, that's coming from
[43:48] Speaker 2: a place of like utmost sincerity. You think you're saving people,
[43:52] Speaker 2: and you also think you're doing work that's going to,
[43:55] Speaker 2: you know, help you be better. And then there are
[43:59] Speaker 2: the groomers who know specifically for JMS, there were people
[44:03] Speaker 2: who knew what was happening at a higher level and
[44:05] Speaker 2: who knew what the purpose of all this recruitment was,
[44:08] Speaker 2: who knew why they focused on getting tall, slim, beautiful
[44:12] Speaker 2: women into the group, and who were intentionally grooming women.
[44:17] Speaker 2: And I think it's almost impossible to know which was which. Yeah,
[44:24] Speaker 2: I think that there were one or two individuals in
[44:26] Speaker 2: that group specifically, like the leaders of the group locally,
[44:31] Speaker 2: that they knew what they were doing, and there were
[44:33] Speaker 2: a lot of tells, you know, there was the way
[44:36] Speaker 2: that they would speak to me in private, like they
[44:38] Speaker 2: were telling me this really important secret about how to
[44:41] Speaker 2: get closer to him, and would make reference to my
[44:46] Speaker 2: genitals or his genitals or you know, like so confusing,
[44:51] Speaker 2: incredibly confusing. I was like, I really struggled understanding what
[44:55] Speaker 2: she meant, because again I thought it was like a metaphor.
[44:57] Speaker 2: And then there was a part of me that was like,
[44:59] Speaker 2: I don't know, oh, if it's a metaphor. And I
[45:01] Speaker 2: found that I did find that frightening and I didn't
[45:04] Speaker 2: know what to do with it. Unfortunately, I was so lucky,
[45:06] Speaker 2: Like I had a horrible experience. They did end up
[45:09] Speaker 2: restricting my food, you know, and I my eating disorder
[45:13] Speaker 2: came back with a vengeance, and I started having panic attacks,
[45:17] Speaker 2: and I started, you know, just basically like completely capitulating
[45:21] Speaker 2: under the intense psychological and emotional pressure and the psychological abuse,
[45:27] Speaker 2: the lack of sleep, the lack of food, and the
[45:29] Speaker 2: worse I got, the harsher they wear on me because
[45:32] Speaker 2: they told me it was my fault.
[45:34] Speaker 1: What a perfect storm.
[45:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really a perfect storm, man. And in
[45:38] Speaker 2: the midst of this, I'm like, well, if I don't
[45:39] Speaker 2: make myself perfect, then I'm going to go to hell,
[45:41] Speaker 2: like I you know, sorry, I just went off on
[45:44] Speaker 2: a massive tangent.
[45:45] Speaker 3: No, that's perfect because that's how you ended up in
[45:48] Speaker 3: the hospital and getting the fuck away from these people
[45:51] Speaker 3: for a second.
[45:52] Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, And honestly, like that's what saved me.
[45:57] Speaker 2: It gave me that little bit of time outside of
[45:59] Speaker 2: the immersion of the group.
[46:00] Speaker 1: PS. That's how I got out of mind till was
[46:02] Speaker 1: going to the treatment. Yeah. We have a lot to
[46:05] Speaker 1: talk about.
[46:06] Speaker 2: We do. Yeah. Yeah, I feel terrible that, like the
[46:09] Speaker 2: time's nearly up and I'm like, there's it's like we
[46:12] Speaker 2: haven't even gotten to that deep programming or I.
[46:16] Speaker 1: Mean, there's just so much there that people have to
[46:17] Speaker 1: read your book.
[46:18] Speaker 3: Yeah, people will just have to add able cult Bride
[46:21] Speaker 3: And where can people find it and find you?
[46:24] Speaker 2: I'm not sure how easy it is to get in
[46:27] Speaker 2: the States. I know that it's available on all the
[46:29] Speaker 2: audio platforms and Spotify that sort of thing, and I
[46:33] Speaker 2: think you should be able to buy the book, the
[46:35] Speaker 2: physical book via Amazon. I know that's true in Australia.
[46:39] Speaker 1: We got it on Kendall in America, so you did.
[46:42] Speaker 2: Okay, there you go, Okay, that's good. To know. Yes,
[46:46] Speaker 2: it goes into a lot more. There's a lot more
[46:48] Speaker 2: to the end of that story and how I was
[46:51] Speaker 2: deep programmed and what the recovery journey is like is
[46:55] Speaker 2: a whole other conversation, as you would both Well, no,
[46:58] Speaker 2: that's almost like a whole story in itself, right. I
[47:02] Speaker 2: think that's the hardest part for people, is the leaving
[47:05] Speaker 2: and realizing what happened to you and coming to terms
[47:07] Speaker 2: with it and trying to heal and how confusing and
[47:12] Speaker 2: overwhelming it is. And I think that's why I speak
[47:15] Speaker 2: out now, is because there is so much that's not
[47:19] Speaker 2: addressed in legislation, in policy, you know, at least speaking
[47:24] Speaker 2: for Australia, in our mental health services, in our referral systems,
[47:28] Speaker 2: to provide people the help that they need and the
[47:30] Speaker 2: support that they need when they come out of a group.
[47:32] Speaker 2: You know, when people come out, they are incredibly unsafe,
[47:35] Speaker 2: incredibly destabilized, don't know who they are, don't know what
[47:39] Speaker 2: the world is, how to deal with the world. They
[47:41] Speaker 2: don't often have any real skills that they can get
[47:44] Speaker 2: a job with. They often don't have any money, they
[47:47] Speaker 2: don't have any contacts. There's so much wookworking against them,
[47:52] Speaker 2: and it is the time when people are most likely
[47:54] Speaker 2: to take their own lives, and it's a really really
[47:57] Speaker 2: critical time when people need like intensives and there is
[48:01] Speaker 2: almost nothing. And then there's also the legislation side of it,
[48:04] Speaker 2: where coercive control laws. I actually believe it's a lot
[48:07] Speaker 2: better in the United States, is my understanding.
[48:09] Speaker 3: But it depends on the state, right of course, very
[48:12] Speaker 3: state dependent.
[48:13] Speaker 2: Yeah that's the case with us too. But I think
[48:15] Speaker 2: what we're seeing over here is finally there's this movement
[48:18] Speaker 2: towards recognizing coercive control and criminalizing it, which is groundbreaking.
[48:24] Speaker 2: I mean, it's taken way too many tragic events for
[48:27] Speaker 2: that to be the case, but that's almost always how
[48:29] Speaker 2: it happens, right. It doesn't necessarily provide legislation that works
[48:35] Speaker 2: for people who have come from the kind of scaled
[48:38] Speaker 2: coercive control that we see in high control groups. It's
[48:41] Speaker 2: really more about those interpersonal one and one dynamics, and
[48:45] Speaker 2: that doesn't always translate. And a huge part of trauma
[48:49] Speaker 2: when you come out of a cult is not being believed.
[48:51] Speaker 2: That's very retraumatizing, as I'm sure you've experienced as well.
[48:55] Speaker 2: There's so much rhetoric out there, that's like, why would
[48:58] Speaker 2: you choose that? You know, could you be so gullible? Like?
[49:02] Speaker 2: And that's I'm sure you as well. Often it's like,
[49:05] Speaker 2: well that's water if it ducks back, because I know
[49:07] Speaker 2: you just don't understand how that works. And that's why
[49:10] Speaker 2: I tried to break down those dynamics a bit more
[49:12] Speaker 2: in my book and explain what that process is like
[49:14] Speaker 2: externally and also internally. But legislation hasn't brought up yet.
[49:19] Speaker 2: And it's hard because it's a pattern of behavior. It's
[49:22] Speaker 2: not an instance. It's not a single thing that happens.
[49:25] Speaker 2: It is a pattern over a long period of time
[49:28] Speaker 2: that constitutes the crime, not one thing, one event.
[49:32] Speaker 3: Well, and that is why I am glad that in
[49:35] Speaker 3: your book, not only do you break down a lot
[49:37] Speaker 3: of the psychological dynamics, but like we talked about earlier,
[49:40] Speaker 3: step by step of like here's how I believe the
[49:42] Speaker 3: next thing, and here's how I was primed for the
[49:44] Speaker 3: next thing, and here's why the next thing wasn't that
[49:46] Speaker 3: much of a stretch from the previous thing. And we
[49:49] Speaker 3: talked about it so much today because I think just
[49:51] Speaker 3: being able to observe how that happens and how gradual
[49:53] Speaker 3: it is is just instrumental for you know, raising more
[49:58] Speaker 3: understanding about how this works.
[50:00] Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's that it's that understanding piece, and that's what
[50:04] Speaker 2: I wish I had known when I was that age,
[50:06] Speaker 2: Like I wish I had that understanding. My talkit as
[50:08] Speaker 2: we all do. Right, it's building that community understanding and
[50:12] Speaker 2: the recognition that it quite literally could happen to anyone.
[50:16] Speaker 2: You just have to be perhaps in a vulnerable space
[50:19] Speaker 2: in your life, which we all are at some point.
[50:22] Speaker 2: And then it's also like you know, the frontline workers
[50:25] Speaker 2: recognizing being able to pick up on the signs of
[50:27] Speaker 2: brainwashing and cults and that kind of activity, because I
[50:31] Speaker 2: know that when my mum called the AFP when I
[50:33] Speaker 2: was dying, like effectively dying in this group, they were like, well,
[50:38] Speaker 2: is she there against her will? And we know that
[50:41] Speaker 2: if they'd come to our house and knocked on the door,
[50:43] Speaker 2: I would have said, absolutely, I'm here of my own
[50:45] Speaker 2: free will. I love being here. This is the best
[50:48] Speaker 2: experience of my life and I'm not leaving. So what's
[50:52] Speaker 2: their remit? And so one of the things that I'm
[50:54] Speaker 2: working on now, like I've kind of I do struggle
[50:57] Speaker 2: with being online a lot because it's such a brutal
[51:00] Speaker 2: space to exist in watching everything happening in the States
[51:04] Speaker 2: as well, all I can't it's it's retraumatizing in so
[51:09] Speaker 2: many ways, right, just see what's playing out, and even
[51:11] Speaker 2: more so for you who are living in it. So
[51:13] Speaker 2: our thoughts are definitely like all of us survivors over
[51:16] Speaker 2: here in Australia, our thoughts are so with all of
[51:19] Speaker 2: you in the US and what you must be going through.
[51:23] Speaker 2: But yeah, one of the things that I'm working on
[51:25] Speaker 2: is I'm working with our federal police at the moment
[51:28] Speaker 2: in helping to develop like what to increase frontline police
[51:33] Speaker 2: understanding of how to understand what a cult looks like
[51:36] Speaker 2: from the outside.
[51:37] Speaker 1: That's awesome.
[51:38] Speaker 2: How do they and what's the triage system look like?
[51:41] Speaker 2: How do they refer like what resources can they give?
[51:44] Speaker 2: You know, what questions should they ask? When should they
[51:47] Speaker 2: just like check back in again, it's a more intuitive
[51:51] Speaker 2: way of assessing a situation than just kicking a box.
[51:56] Speaker 2: I'm excited about where that work takes me. And yeah,
[51:59] Speaker 2: I think the whole line world is really if I
[52:01] Speaker 2: find it quite well mean, as I'm sure you do understandably.
[52:08] Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, well, you're doing amazing work and we
[52:13] Speaker 4: so love you writing the book, coming on doing your advocacy.
[52:16] Speaker 1: It's all very important, So thank you.
[52:18] Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you
[52:20] Speaker 2: for letting me ramble.
[52:22] Speaker 4: No, that's perfect likewise, and we'll see you online forever
[52:26] Speaker 4: on there again.
[52:29] Speaker 1: Last week we asked if I would join this cult.
[52:32] Speaker 1: I think the answer was kind of yeah.
[52:34] Speaker 3: I think we both maybe would depending.
[52:36] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it turns out it would be the
[52:38] Speaker 4: wrong decision by a long shot. But Liz, we totally
[52:42] Speaker 4: get how you ended up where you ended up. And
[52:45] Speaker 4: your book is phenomenal.
[52:47] Speaker 3: And y'all should go buy it. And it is called
[52:49] Speaker 3: Cult Bride, How I was Brainwashed and how he Broke free.
[52:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, and when I.
[52:55] Speaker 4: First heard the title Cult Ride, I was like, oh,
[52:57] Speaker 4: she got married to somebody in the cult. I didn't
[52:59] Speaker 4: realize she was like marrying Jesus essentially, that was coming
[53:03] Speaker 4: through a prophet.
[53:04] Speaker 1: Yeah. Pretty wild, pretty wild.
[53:06] Speaker 3: I mean, thank actually didn't have to actually do it
[53:08] Speaker 3: in the end. Thank god that did not get to
[53:10] Speaker 3: that point.
[53:11] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[53:11] Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, please rate those five stars. We would appreciate it,
[53:17] Speaker 4: follow us, subscribe, do whatever you can.
[53:19] Speaker 3: Please buy our merch at exactly rightstore dot com.
[53:23] Speaker 1: This is the begging portion of the show where.
[53:28] Speaker 4: We try to drum up some interaction because we need
[53:33] Speaker 4: to be better about it, Wila.
[53:34] Speaker 1: We need to be on social media.
[53:35] Speaker 4: We need to be making videos and stuff and communicating
[53:38] Speaker 4: with the people.
[53:39] Speaker 1: Listening to the show because we Yeah, I love you
[53:41] Speaker 1: guys so much. We do so.
[53:42] Speaker 4: Anyway, remember to follow your gut, to watch out for
[53:47] Speaker 4: red flax.
[53:48] Speaker 1: And never ever trust to me. Hey bye.
[53:54] Speaker 3: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted by me Lola.
[53:57] Speaker 1: Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Senior producer is G. Holly.
[54:01] Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.
[54:03] Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker
[54:07] Speaker 4: is Patrick Kottner.
[54:08] Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly Ambert.
[54:10] Speaker 4: Church Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia
[54:14] Speaker 4: Hartstark and Daniel Kramer.
[54:16] Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast
[54:19] Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.
[54:21] Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation.
[54:24] Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
[54:28] Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts,
[54:31] Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.