# Forgiving the Unforgivable: How a Mother Found Peace After Devastating Sandy Hook Loss

An episode of [90210MG](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1534142827), 29 Sep 2026, 31 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/86457cdc-5bf7-4d94-b3c3-b139013e9200/1258361b-3e0f-4c25-bb21-b4d4003d2555/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=0932b8be-71b5-4418-b1ee-ae280053257a

Jennifer Hubbard lost her six-year-old daughter Catherine at Sandy Hook, and in the years since, has devoted herself to a love that outlasts loss; building an animal sanctuary, learning to stop comparing her grief with others and how to forgive. Call the I CHOOSE ME Hotline at 844-553-6643 Follow @IChooseMewithJennieGarth on Instagram and TikTok Follow @JennieGarth on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garland. Welcome
[0:09] Speaker 1: to I Choose Me. My guest today has experienced what
[0:13] Speaker 1: not one of us can imagine or fathom. Jennifer Hubbard
[0:18] Speaker 1: lost her daughter, Catherine, in a tragic shooting event in Newtown, Connecticut,
[0:24] Speaker 1: one that will forever be a scar on our nation's history.
[0:28] Speaker 1: Though our systems failed her, and the 28 souls who
[0:32] Speaker 1: died that day. What has emerged is an incredible story
[0:37] Speaker 1: of forgiveness and finding peace. Please welcome Jennifer Hubbard. Thank
[0:42] Speaker 1: you so much for joining us.
[0:44] Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, thank you.
[0:46] Speaker 1: Being so brave and talking about this and helping so
[0:48] Speaker 1: many people.
[0:51] Speaker 2: Well, I hope. That's the prayer. And you know what?
[0:54] Speaker 2: If it's just one person, I'm good with that.
[0:58] Speaker 1: Yep, I know the feeling.
[0:59] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:00] Speaker 1: Let's just jump right in.
[1:01] Speaker 2: Okay. Okay.
[1:05] Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we all know about the tragedy at Sandy Hook
[1:09] Speaker 1: Elementary School that took the sweet lives of 20 children
[1:13] Speaker 1: and in all eight adults. The details of the day,
[1:17] Speaker 1: we do not need to rehash. I'm sure you do
[1:20] Speaker 1: not want to rehash either. So if you could just
[1:24] Speaker 1: please tell us a little bit about your sweet daughter, Catherine.
[1:29] Speaker 2: Oh, sweet Catherine. She, she proved the, the, when everybody
[1:34] Speaker 2: says redheads are fiery and fierce and determined, she was
[1:39] Speaker 2: all of that. And then some more like she, the
[1:43] Speaker 2: thing about Catherine and she was six when she, when
[1:46] Speaker 2: she died. So like there was so much that was
[1:50] Speaker 2: going to continue to, to grow in her. But if
[1:53] Speaker 2: there was the, if the essence of her was, was,
[1:58] Speaker 2: just fiercely passionate about animals. The first memories I have
[2:04] Speaker 2: of her are her scooting under the table. She couldn't
[2:08] Speaker 2: even walk. And she was scooting under the table so
[2:11] Speaker 2: that she could be nose to nose with Sammy, our
[2:16] Speaker 2: yellow lab. And she just, her heart was just fiercely
[2:24] Speaker 2: loving animals, but then loving people. Like she would go
[2:27] Speaker 2: to school every day and she would cry and just,
[2:30] Speaker 2: it was like the alligator tears coming. She wanted to
[2:33] Speaker 2: be home. And then when she was home and she
[2:37] Speaker 2: was running around the yard, she just, she was just
[2:41] Speaker 2: a barrel of, of energy. And so there's so many
[2:47] Speaker 2: times where I find myself wondering, like as she would
[2:50] Speaker 2: be 20 now, what would she be as a 20-year-old
[2:56] Speaker 2: just on fire, in love with animals?
[3:03] Speaker 1: Do you allow yourself to envision what she would be like?
[3:09] Speaker 2: I do. It's a tricky, it's a slippery slope because
[3:14] Speaker 2: she's not 20. She's not here. And so I know
[3:17] Speaker 2: for me personally, I could probably go down the rabbit
[3:21] Speaker 2: hole of She should be here and she should be
[3:25] Speaker 2: doing all of these things. And when I go down
[3:28] Speaker 2: that road, I realize that it's a slippery slope because
[3:33] Speaker 2: I had her for six years and I don't want
[3:37] Speaker 2: to do anything that would minimize the love and The frustration.
[3:43] Speaker 2: It's hard to bring a kid to school every single
[3:46] Speaker 2: day and have them crying. I don't want to go.
[3:50] Speaker 1: I've had that. Yes, I understand. And then something terrible happens.
[3:56] Speaker 1: The unimaginable happens.
[3:58] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[3:59] Speaker 1: I can't imagine how that must have just been so
[4:03] Speaker 1: hard for you to reckon with. Yeah.
[4:07] Speaker 2: You know, the thing about it is the morning that
[4:11] Speaker 2: I put her on the bus, to go to school.
[4:13] Speaker 2: So I have, I have two, I have a, he's
[4:16] Speaker 2: now 22. But Freddie and Catherine got on the bus
[4:20] Speaker 2: on that morning. And she was so excited to go
[4:27] Speaker 2: to school. It was the first time when I tell
[4:29] Speaker 2: you it was the first time that she didn't cry.
[4:35] Speaker 2: getting on the bus. She held my hand so tight
[4:37] Speaker 2: going down the, walking down the road. We lived at
[4:39] Speaker 2: the end of a cul-de-sac. And so we had to
[4:41] Speaker 2: walk down to the stop sign to get on the
[4:43] Speaker 2: bus and her hand, she'd hold it so tight. And
[4:46] Speaker 2: I think she actually was like, oh, I, I don't want,
[4:50] Speaker 2: I don't want to go to school, but there was like,
[4:53] Speaker 2: there was no, there was no tears because she had
[4:56] Speaker 2: gotten a new pair of boots and it's, she like
[4:58] Speaker 2: jingle belled all the way down the road because she
[5:01] Speaker 2: loved her boots. And I sent her off and she
[5:05] Speaker 2: had the most beautiful smile. She turned around, she ran
[5:08] Speaker 2: across the street and she turned around and she gave
[5:10] Speaker 2: me a wave. And I remember locking arms with my
[5:14] Speaker 2: neighbor who it just destroyed both of us when we
[5:18] Speaker 2: would when we'd watch the bus go off, knowing that
[5:20] Speaker 2: she was sitting there with the tears coming down her face.
[5:23] Speaker 2: We locked arms and we walked up back up to
[5:25] Speaker 2: the house and Patty said, she's going to be fine.
[5:28] Speaker 2: You know, the reality for me is that she is fine.
[5:33] Speaker 2: you know, hours later, she would be gone. But my
[5:39] Speaker 2: belief is that she's where we're all aspiring to be.
[5:44] Speaker 2: And so in so many ways, she's, she's in heaven. She's,
[5:49] Speaker 2: she's protected. She's joyful. Like that brilliant smile is probably
[5:54] Speaker 2: 10 times more brilliant. I can't wait to see it.
[5:57] Speaker 2: Hopefully someday, someday I can make my way to her.
[6:00] Speaker 2: But To have that memory of her last moments on
[6:05] Speaker 2: earth with me is something that I treasure.
[6:10] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. In the days and the years since that
[6:16] Speaker 1: terrible day, December 2012, you have been on a mission.
[6:23] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[6:24] Speaker 1: Not of just recovery, but of love. Tell me how you...
[6:29] Speaker 1: began your journey to choose forgiveness?
[6:35] Speaker 2: You know, I don't, I don't necessarily think that I
[6:38] Speaker 2: made a conscious choice to, to walk down this road
[6:43] Speaker 2: and call it the road of forgiveness. I, I took day,
[6:48] Speaker 2: I took it day by day. And so I still
[6:52] Speaker 2: had an eight, Freddie was eight. And so I still
[6:54] Speaker 2: had an eight year old. And life had, changed dramatically,
[7:04] Speaker 2: but it also became very quiet. And so I had
[7:06] Speaker 2: a lot of time to sit and think. And what
[7:10] Speaker 2: I realized in retrospect is that the habits that I
[7:13] Speaker 2: had formed before Catherine had died were the habits that
[7:17] Speaker 2: I was clinging to after she died. And so mornings
[7:23] Speaker 2: for me, when the kids got on the bus would be,
[7:25] Speaker 2: I'd come back to the house and I would spend
[7:27] Speaker 2: time praying and journaling and really centering myself. And I
[7:34] Speaker 2: found myself doing that for a lot longer spans of time.
[7:37] Speaker 2: And in those moments of just sitting and praying and
[7:44] Speaker 2: wrestling with God, what I've realized is this constant surrender
[7:51] Speaker 2: of what I thought my life would be like and
[7:56] Speaker 2: what I had in in honesty thought that I, I deserved,
[8:02] Speaker 2: I had, I was a good mom and I was
[8:06] Speaker 2: involved in, in their lives and I didn't deserve this.
[8:10] Speaker 2: And I would find myself journaling and, and rest and
[8:13] Speaker 2: wrestling with those feelings of entitlement. I it's, I, it's
[8:19] Speaker 2: such an ugly word. And, and I think anybody thinking
[8:23] Speaker 2: about it would be like, Oh my God, like you lost,
[8:25] Speaker 2: you lost your child, like of, of course you're due
[8:30] Speaker 2: these things. But what I realized as I started moving
[8:36] Speaker 2: through this new normal of ours is that if I
[8:40] Speaker 2: was speaking to people, the single most asked question that
[8:45] Speaker 2: I was offered was, do you forgive your daughter's shooter?
[8:50] Speaker 2: And it was a very easy yes for me. I
[8:52] Speaker 2: don't know how it just was like, Yes, of course,
[8:56] Speaker 2: because I hadn't given Adam much thought.
[9:01] Speaker 1: Adam was the shooter.
[9:03] Speaker 2: Adam's the shooter. And people would say to me, aren't
[9:06] Speaker 2: you furious at his mother? And I wasn't. What struck
[9:13] Speaker 2: me is that she made choices that cost her her
[9:21] Speaker 2: own life. she, she was lost on that day as well,
[9:26] Speaker 2: but there was never this ill will of feeling like
[9:29] Speaker 2: I'm do something from Adam or something from Nancy, his mother.
[9:36] Speaker 2: It was more of I'm, I'm do these certain things
[9:40] Speaker 2: because I was, I, I was good and I was
[9:44] Speaker 2: faithful and I gave up a career to raise my kids.
[9:47] Speaker 2: And so all of these things that I was wrestling
[9:50] Speaker 2: with my own heart, um, is what I was thinking about.
[9:55] Speaker 2: So when people would say, you know do you forgive
[9:57] Speaker 2: the shooter of course I forgive the shooter and and
[10:00] Speaker 2: people would give me this look of like hmm interesting
[10:05] Speaker 2: and I'm sure that there was skepticism and curiosity and
[10:09] Speaker 2: this moment of okay I don't even there's no follow-up
[10:12] Speaker 2: for that question because it was just a cut and
[10:15] Speaker 2: dry yeah uh And there was one evening I was
[10:19] Speaker 2: speaking at a business dinner and the routine was always
[10:24] Speaker 2: the same. It was 45 minutes of a conversation about
[10:29] Speaker 2: how I found my footing after Catherine died and then
[10:33] Speaker 2: Q & A. And it was always, how's your son?
[10:36] Speaker 2: Tell me about your husband. I'm since divorced. So there's
[10:43] Speaker 2: fallout after the fallout, after fallout, after fallout. Um, and
[10:47] Speaker 2: then there would always be the forgiveness question and there'd
[10:51] Speaker 2: be this awkward silence. And then there would be like
[10:55] Speaker 2: a question that would just try to cut the air. Like, well,
[10:59] Speaker 2: tell us about the sanctuary or tell us about Catherine.
[11:03] Speaker 2: So this one night, this woman stopped me as I
[11:05] Speaker 2: was leaving. Um, and she was standing in the threshold
[11:10] Speaker 2: of the whole of this hallway. And she said, um,
[11:14] Speaker 2: I get it. Like you forgive, you forgive the shooter.
[11:20] Speaker 2: And be like Catherine alligator tears. And she said, but how? How? How? How?
[11:31] Speaker 2: How do you get to this point? And I didn't
[11:34] Speaker 2: have an answer for her. I didn't have an answer.
[11:37] Speaker 2: I said, I, I don't, I don't know. I don't know.
[11:44] Speaker 2: And her face, it was this moment of just truth. Like, wow.
[11:52] Speaker 2: She doesn't know how she... And it got me thinking about, well,
[11:57] Speaker 2: how does this get explained? How do I explain how
[12:04] Speaker 2: I forgive? And so the journey was really on how
[12:09] Speaker 2: did I come to this place? And maybe it's not forgiveness,
[12:12] Speaker 2: but more of... peace, of reconciliation with my own heart,
[12:20] Speaker 2: of not being due something because a tragedy happened. And
[12:30] Speaker 2: I think that the conclusion I came to in writing
[12:34] Speaker 2: this book and really thinking about my own journey was
[12:38] Speaker 2: that we in general, I think, have forgiven us all wrong.
[12:44] Speaker 2: There's a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation and accountability. And
[12:52] Speaker 2: I think that we bundle them all together and call
[12:56] Speaker 2: it forgiveness. And so when you don't have someone accept
[13:01] Speaker 2: the accountability, how do you offer someone forgiveness? Adam will
[13:07] Speaker 2: never be held accountable for the lives that he took.
[13:12] Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that I can't forgive him or come
[13:17] Speaker 2: to a place of forgiveness.
[13:25] Speaker 1: Did you feel that the forgiveness had to happen for
[13:28] Speaker 1: you to be able to find your peace?
[13:30] Speaker 2: Yes. But they were all internal. They weren't dependent on him. And,
[13:35] Speaker 2: you know, even... Because I think that my tragedy in
[13:45] Speaker 2: losing Catherine in such a violent manner is sort of
[13:50] Speaker 2: out there in the world. It's off. People can't like, what?
[13:57] Speaker 1: Yes, it's unimaginable until you experience it.
[14:01] Speaker 2: Right. But I also think that there's this question of
[14:03] Speaker 2: forgiveness for the egregious acts that affect all of our lives.
[14:11] Speaker 2: It's abuse and neglect and divorce and friendships lost and broken.
[14:20] Speaker 2: And all of those, I believe, follow the same pattern
[14:24] Speaker 2: of coming to a place of forgiveness. And I believe
[14:29] Speaker 2: for me and for most of us that can say
[14:34] Speaker 2: with a certainty, like I live in this place of forgiveness,
[14:38] Speaker 2: it's coming back. to the coming to the realization that
[14:42] Speaker 2: it has nothing, forgiveness has nothing to do with the
[14:45] Speaker 2: other person. It has nothing. Nothing. And even when they
[14:50] Speaker 2: do offer you the apology or they go and they
[14:56] Speaker 2: pay their penalty, they end up in jail or whatever
[15:00] Speaker 2: it might be. They pay the retribution, anything. It doesn't
[15:05] Speaker 2: change the fact that our hearts are still broken. Right.
[15:10] Speaker 2: they're all important. And I'm not saying that, that for
[15:13] Speaker 2: that egregious acts shouldn't, you shouldn't be held accountable and
[15:16] Speaker 2: there shouldn't be some sense of retribution, but it's totally different.
[15:21] Speaker 2: I think that when we can come to a place
[15:24] Speaker 2: and when I came to a place of realizing that Catherine,
[15:29] Speaker 2: Catherine was gone and it, it hurt me to realize
[15:33] Speaker 2: that I didn't have a daughter anymore. And I loved
[15:37] Speaker 2: having a baby girl. I loved it. And it was
[15:39] Speaker 2: going to be different with Catherine than it was for me.
[15:42] Speaker 2: And that was gone. Right. And when I could surrender
[15:47] Speaker 2: the expectation that that was going to be my life. Right.
[15:51] Speaker 2: I realized that what I was allowing to root in
[15:56] Speaker 2: my heart made space for other things. Right.
[15:59] Speaker 1: Do you think there's a difference between surrender and acceptance?
[16:03] Speaker 2: Yes. Mm-hmm. I think that they are. I think that
[16:08] Speaker 2: when we just accept about this terrible thing happened to me. Yeah.
[16:16] Speaker 2: I think that we're not doing ourselves justice. I don't
[16:20] Speaker 2: think that we're paying homage to our hearts. And I
[16:24] Speaker 2: think that we missed the point. And for me, that
[16:28] Speaker 2: point is trusting in my faith that There's a God
[16:34] Speaker 2: and he loves me and he wants the best for me.
[16:37] Speaker 2: And that out of the depths of ashes, beauty will emerge.
[16:43] Speaker 2: It's like the forest fires. They go through and it's
[16:47] Speaker 2: just black, charred, nothing. But the forests that emerge out
[16:53] Speaker 2: of that darkness are beautiful and magnificent.
[16:58] Speaker 1: It's so hard to even imagine when you're going through it.
[17:03] Speaker 1: You know, you said before about, it made me think
[17:07] Speaker 1: about peace, that we're all just looking for peace.
[17:10] Speaker 2: That's it.
[17:11] Speaker 1: And this is exactly why you wrote the book, to
[17:13] Speaker 1: help other people figure out how to find peace after
[17:18] Speaker 1: such a tragedy or any kind of tragedy or loss
[17:21] Speaker 1: in their own lives. Tell me about your book a
[17:24] Speaker 1: little bit.
[17:25] Speaker 2: So the book really is my journey in Reflections. to
[17:33] Speaker 2: how I came to this understanding that forgiveness is an
[17:39] Speaker 2: introspective process. And that my hope is that as someone's
[17:45] Speaker 2: sitting down with the book, that they realize that it's
[17:50] Speaker 2: not a cut and dry process and it could be
[17:52] Speaker 2: a lifetime. I truly believe that so many people are
[17:58] Speaker 2: just so hard on themselves when they think, I can't forgive.
[18:02] Speaker 2: And that makes me a bad person. Right.
[18:06] Speaker 1: It makes them feel ugly about themselves.
[18:09] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm not saying that it's
[18:12] Speaker 2: like neat and tidy. I had to really wrestle with
[18:16] Speaker 2: myself and realize that there were so many expectations that
[18:20] Speaker 2: I was holding this world accountable to that weren't necessarily
[18:27] Speaker 2: true or right.
[18:29] Speaker 1: Or yours to carry.
[18:33] Speaker 2: Exactly because I don't think that in the tragedies that
[18:39] Speaker 2: I've dealt with in my life and I'll use one
[18:42] Speaker 2: that's common to everybody in divorce I think that there
[18:46] Speaker 2: are so many things that break us that we think
[18:53] Speaker 2: they're ours to carry for the rest of our lives
[18:56] Speaker 2: and they were never meant for us to carry in
[18:59] Speaker 2: the first place They were never meant to be ours.
[19:03] Speaker 2: And I think that in a process of forgiveness, we
[19:06] Speaker 2: go through this self-evaluation. And in writing the book, my
[19:11] Speaker 2: hope was to make the point that there is no
[19:17] Speaker 2: hierarchy to forgiveness. A broken heart is a broken heart.
[19:24] Speaker 2: And it's where forgiveness has to start. Right.
[19:27] Speaker 1: That reminds me of something you say in the book.
[19:29] Speaker 1: You say that sizing up our suffering to yours is
[19:33] Speaker 1: not necessary. So when people hear about your suffering, we
[19:38] Speaker 1: don't need to size up our own suffering.
[19:41] Speaker 2: Explain that to me. I think it's a tragedy when
[19:44] Speaker 2: we do. I think that when we size up our
[19:49] Speaker 2: suffering to anybody's especially to mine, and when I size
[19:54] Speaker 2: up mine to someone, there were families who lost, who
[19:58] Speaker 2: later went on to lose other family members. And there
[20:03] Speaker 2: were some family members where it was their only child
[20:07] Speaker 2: that they were lost, that was lost. There have been
[20:11] Speaker 2: some families who they lost their child and went on
[20:15] Speaker 2: to battle horrific illnesses. When I size up my loss
[20:23] Speaker 2: to their loss, or when someone who thinks that their
[20:30] Speaker 2: tragedy is less than mine, I think that in that moment...
[20:38] Speaker 2: we diminish who we are as people, because I truly
[20:43] Speaker 2: believe that hurt is hurt. And that in the midst
[20:47] Speaker 2: of that suffering, there's something sacred that's going on. Whether
[20:53] Speaker 2: it's a reconciliation to a faith, or it's a belief
[21:00] Speaker 2: in the universe that it is good. And that there
[21:05] Speaker 2: is something that will come out of this when I
[21:08] Speaker 2: believe that when we start sizing up, my suffering's not
[21:12] Speaker 2: as much as that one. So mine doesn't matter. Yeah.
[21:16] Speaker 2: We're neglecting our own hearts. Right. It doesn't matter. When
[21:21] Speaker 2: you break your arm, it hurts. And if you broke
[21:24] Speaker 2: your arm and I broke my arm, we both say,
[21:27] Speaker 2: it sucks. It hurts. Our hearts, when they're broken, they hurt.
[21:33] Speaker 2: And all of this world of suffering... We all hurt.
[21:39] Speaker 2: And I think that when we try to say mine
[21:42] Speaker 2: doesn't hurt, we dishonor ourselves. Right.
[21:45] Speaker 1: There's no comparison. There's no equating it. It just is
[21:49] Speaker 1: what it is.
[21:50] Speaker 2: Yeah. When we get into a, this is a terrible,
[21:55] Speaker 2: terrible word, but when we get into a pissing match
[21:57] Speaker 2: of who's hurt is worse. Right. We lose the point.
[22:01] Speaker 1: We lose the point. We no longer can have compassion
[22:04] Speaker 1: for the other person. We no longer are taking care
[22:07] Speaker 1: of ourselves.
[22:09] Speaker 2: Yeah. Now all of a sudden you're stuffing it. You're
[22:12] Speaker 2: stuffing it like, oh, mine's not bad because yours is worse.
[22:18] Speaker 2: It breaks my heart when people say, well, you know what?
[22:21] Speaker 2: It doesn't compare. No, it doesn't.
[22:26] Speaker 1: It's such a great practice to not compare no matter
[22:29] Speaker 1: what it is in your life, whether it is your
[22:31] Speaker 1: suffering or it is your blessings. Or your success or
[22:35] Speaker 1: your lack of success. There's no comparison. And I think
[22:39] Speaker 1: we're just so pre-wired, especially in this day and age,
[22:45] Speaker 1: to compare. Yeah. I heard someone say once, compare despair. Yeah.
[22:57] Speaker 1: And it's true.
[22:59] Speaker 2: I think we all have our own, we have, we
[23:01] Speaker 2: all have our own journey and we all have the,
[23:06] Speaker 2: when I think about Catherine and her class, I feel
[23:10] Speaker 2: like we all have this beautiful purpose to serve. And
[23:14] Speaker 2: this was part of my journey and coming to this
[23:16] Speaker 2: place of forgiveness, of understanding at the heart of who
[23:21] Speaker 2: I am, that I was put on this earth for
[23:25] Speaker 2: purpose and, And that purpose was for good. There is
[23:29] Speaker 2: something that I hope I'm doing it. I really hope
[23:33] Speaker 2: I'm on the right path. But that if we can
[23:37] Speaker 2: all serve that purpose, we make the world collectively better.
[23:44] Speaker 2: And part of that journey is this pruning and this
[23:50] Speaker 2: going through these moments of darkness that we can grow
[23:54] Speaker 2: and be stretched so that we can be all that
[23:57] Speaker 2: much more purposeful in our lives. I think about Catherine's class.
[24:01] Speaker 2: And one of them, one of her classmates was a
[24:05] Speaker 2: dancer and another an artist. And one kid wanted to
[24:07] Speaker 2: go play professional football. And they all believed in their
[24:11] Speaker 2: hearts that that's what they were going to do. And Catherine,
[24:15] Speaker 2: she was the animal welfare girl. So she was going
[24:17] Speaker 2: to take care of all the animals. And who's to
[24:20] Speaker 2: know if If the dancer would be in the New
[24:26] Speaker 2: York Ballet or the artist was showing at the Met,
[24:32] Speaker 2: maybe not. But I truly believe that at six, that
[24:37] Speaker 2: passion that was tucked in their heart was what was
[24:42] Speaker 2: going to bloom and blossom. And so whether Catherine would
[24:46] Speaker 2: have been a vet or not, an animal advocate, there
[24:49] Speaker 2: would have been animals in her life, without a doubt.
[24:52] Speaker 1: I mean, you took her love of animals and her
[24:57] Speaker 1: advocacy for animals and made something very important, but also
[25:03] Speaker 1: very important to you now. Can you tell us a
[25:07] Speaker 1: little bit about what you've done with the foundation, the
[25:12] Speaker 1: Katherine Violet Hubbard Animal Sanctuary?
[25:16] Speaker 2: I mean, it's pretty incredible. It's so funny because there's
[25:20] Speaker 2: so many days where I know that Catherine is... moving
[25:27] Speaker 2: things around. So there are some days where I wonder
[25:30] Speaker 2: if I actually have a choice. Because there are times
[25:35] Speaker 2: where I'm like, I'm done. I'm out. I'm just going
[25:37] Speaker 2: to go write. I just want to go write books.
[25:40] Speaker 2: And then something will happen. And here I am. It's
[25:42] Speaker 2: another five years. The sanctuary was born out of a
[25:48] Speaker 2: typographical error in her obituary. We had thought that donations
[25:52] Speaker 2: were going to the animal control center, which was her,
[25:55] Speaker 2: her place, her go-to. Um, and it was this amazing
[26:00] Speaker 2: group of, of women. It was the animal center is
[26:03] Speaker 2: where donations in her memory went, um, and a lot
[26:07] Speaker 2: in a very short period of time. And so we
[26:11] Speaker 2: decided with those funds that we would create the Catherine
[26:17] Speaker 2: Violet Hubbard animal sanctuary as a place where, uh, people
[26:22] Speaker 2: would see their own innate beauty in the animals that
[26:25] Speaker 2: they cared for. And so the work that we do
[26:28] Speaker 2: there is really because Catherine, she just wanted to save
[26:34] Speaker 2: them all and that in our care that they'll be safe.
[26:37] Speaker 2: And so we're a little bit unique in the sense
[26:39] Speaker 2: that we keep animals in homes with people. We work
[26:44] Speaker 2: with older adults. We educate kids. on and well all
[26:48] Speaker 2: ages we educate them how to see the beauty in
[26:51] Speaker 2: the animals that might even be in their backyard and
[26:54] Speaker 2: that they share this world with and teach them how
[26:58] Speaker 2: to care for them and we we have a huge
[27:01] Speaker 2: conservation effort at the sanctuary and so all along the
[27:04] Speaker 2: way we've we've just done things a little bit a
[27:07] Speaker 2: little bit differently than a traditional animal sanctuary but have
[27:13] Speaker 2: been in Incredibly successful. And just this past year, we
[27:17] Speaker 2: were the nonprofit of the year from the American business.
[27:22] Speaker 2: And we received the designation as one of the most
[27:26] Speaker 2: compassionate animal sanctuaries. And to me, that one. Yeah. That's Catherine.
[27:33] Speaker 2: That's Catherine all over it.
[27:35] Speaker 1: That gives me chills and all the feels because you are,
[27:41] Speaker 1: you know, you are doing exactly what she does.
[27:44] Speaker 2: Wanted, you know, and I love it because when we
[27:47] Speaker 2: go and we're working with some of the seniors that
[27:49] Speaker 2: were helping keep their pets, they will hold on to
[27:54] Speaker 2: their animals so tight. And Catherine, when she gave you
[27:57] Speaker 2: a hug, like it was she she wouldn't let go.
[28:01] Speaker 2: And I'll see her. It's her hugging these animals. And
[28:06] Speaker 2: we have kids come from classrooms. And I have said
[28:10] Speaker 2: probably more times than people want to hear. if it's
[28:15] Speaker 2: not Catherine in some of those kids' faces, just the
[28:19] Speaker 2: wonder and awe of understanding that insects, these bugs that
[28:26] Speaker 2: when they arrived, they were squeamish and yelling about, all
[28:29] Speaker 2: of a sudden they're holding them and they're in awe
[28:32] Speaker 2: of them. And there's Catherine. And even just in the
[28:37] Speaker 2: sanctuary itself that, There are mornings where I will go
[28:41] Speaker 2: sit up there and there'll just be this beautiful breeze.
[28:43] Speaker 2: And it's as if Catherine is laying beside me. And
[28:46] Speaker 2: I think, well, there you are. There you are.
[28:50] Speaker 1: Oh, man, like to be able to connect with her
[28:55] Speaker 1: like that, just by going to the sanctuary and feeling
[28:59] Speaker 1: her presence. It's a gift to animals, of course, but
[29:06] Speaker 1: a real gift to you.
[29:09] Speaker 2: Yeah. And, you know, I think all the more important
[29:12] Speaker 2: because I've often wondered if I didn't come to this
[29:16] Speaker 2: place of peace, like if I wasn't in a place
[29:23] Speaker 2: where I could see it and really appreciate it, would
[29:30] Speaker 2: I see Catherine? And I feel like that's why it's
[29:34] Speaker 2: all the more important for people to understand that Forgiveness
[29:39] Speaker 2: is not complicated. It's not. And when we can wrap
[29:44] Speaker 2: our heads around that we're giving ourselves a gift, we're
[29:47] Speaker 2: not letting anyone off the hook. Nope. We're giving ourselves
[29:51] Speaker 2: permission to grow and feel peace. And instead of being
[29:56] Speaker 2: so focused on on the anger and the hurt and
[30:02] Speaker 2: what we didn't get. I don't know if I would
[30:08] Speaker 2: have seen all of the beauty and the gentleness that's
[30:11] Speaker 2: at the sanctuary. I don't think I would have. And
[30:14] Speaker 2: that would be a tragedy.
[30:15] Speaker 1: Thank you, Jennifer Hubbard, for opening your heart to me
[30:19] Speaker 1: and sharing about your beautiful Catherine. We will continue this
[30:23] Speaker 1: conversation soon. In the meantime, grab her book, Forgiving the Unforgivable.
[30:29] Speaker 1: Available anywhere books are sold. Be gentle with yourselves.

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