# Adobe TRAPPED Designers. One Angry Customer Used Claude AI to Set Them FREE

An episode of [The Angry Designer Graphic Design, Freelancing, Branding & Creative Business Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1531777489), 20 Oct 2026, 31 min.

Audio: https://pscrb.fm/rss/p/www.buzzsprout.com/1351396/episodes/19985457-adobe-trapped-designers-one-angry-customer-used-claude-ai-to-set-them-free.mp3

Someone got fed up with Adobe's cancellation fees... so they used Claude AI to help build an alternative to Adobe Creative Cloud. In just weeks. Seriously. You can't make this stuff up. And the results are surprising! For years, graphic designers have worried about AI replacing them. But what happens when AI starts threatening the very software they've built their careers around? In this episode of The Angry Designer Podcast, the bearded brutes dive into the viral ArtCraft story, the rise of vibe coding, and what happens when a small team takes on one of the biggest names in creative software. One thing's certain: AI just made the Adobe conversation a whole lot more interesting. In this episode you'll discover - How Vibe Coding is changing software development - What ArtCraft actually looks like when you try it - The complicated Adobe relationship designers have - How AI-built alternatives could change the future of creative software If you're a graphic designer, freelancer, or creative professional paying for Adobe Creative Cloud, this is one conversation you won't want to miss. Subscribe to The Angry Designer Podcast for brutally honest conversations about graphic design, creative careers, and the industry nobody wants to challenge. Stay Angry our Friends ––––––––––– Join Anger Management for Designers Newsletter at https://tinyurl.com/mr4bb4j3 Want to see more? See uncut episodes on our YouTube channel at youtube.com/theangrydesigner Read our blog posts on our website TheAngryDesigner.com Join in the conversation on our Instagram Instagram.com/TheAngryDesignerPodcast

## Transcript

[0:00] SPEAKER_01: I'm definitely not loyal to it.
[0:02] SPEAKER_01: You're certainly not loyal.
[0:03] SPEAKER_01: The effort to change at this point.
[0:04] SPEAKER_01: You're right.
[0:05] SPEAKER_01: I'm maybe I'm a little bit like you.
[0:07] SPEAKER_01: Yes, and and that's why I'm I'm I'm loyal to it.
[0:10] SPEAKER_01: Would you recommend it to anybody?
[0:11] SPEAKER_01: I would not.
[0:12] SPEAKER_01: No.
[0:13] SPEAKER_01: And isn't that funny?
[0:14] SPEAKER_00: Is it actually the best software to use, or is it just the hardest one to get out of then?
[0:21] SPEAKER_00: Once you're into them.
[0:22] SPEAKER_00: It's like the mafia of all ops.
[0:25] SPEAKER_00: Once you're in, you just can leave.
[0:33] SPEAKER_01: Okay, Sean.
[0:34] SPEAKER_01: Yep, I got a joke for you.
[0:35] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[0:35] SPEAKER_00: Oh, a joke.
[0:37] SPEAKER_00: Wow.
[0:38] SPEAKER_00: Guy walks into the bar.
[0:39] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[0:39] SPEAKER_01: Okay.
[0:39] SPEAKER_00: And he goes up to the bartender.
[0:40] SPEAKER_00: He goes, hey, bartender, let me ask you a question.
[0:44] SPEAKER_00: Can you help me get out of my Adobe contract?
[0:47] SPEAKER_00: Bartender says, sure, give me 400 bucks.
[0:50] SPEAKER_00: And he's like, 400 bucks?
[0:51] SPEAKER_00: What for?
[0:52] SPEAKER_00: Termination fee.
[0:56] SPEAKER_00: It's such a bad joke.
[0:58] SPEAKER_00: That is a terrible joke.
[0:59] SPEAKER_00: But is it true?
[1:00] SPEAKER_00: No, is there a termination fee?
[1:01] SPEAKER_00: That experience.
[1:02] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there is.
[1:03] SPEAKER_00: So sure enough, there was this fellow.
[1:05] SPEAKER_00: He wanted to cancel his Adobe membership.
[1:07] SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, they gave him a termination fee of like half of the remaining subscription or whatever.
[1:14] SPEAKER_00: And that pissed him off.
[1:15] SPEAKER_00: That made him mad.
[1:16] SPEAKER_00: Just enough to pull his resources together and build and basically clone the whole Adobe Suite of software.
[1:27] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[1:28] SPEAKER_00: Fucking brilliant.
[1:29] SPEAKER_00: He used AI, he used Claude.
[1:32] SPEAKER_00: And originally I thought he reverse engineered it, but it wasn't reverse engineered.
[1:36] SPEAKER_00: It wasn't because it turns out that would have been illegal and very slow and everything.
[1:39] SPEAKER_00: But he did it the other way.
[1:40] SPEAKER_00: He he went from the front end and he just went experience by experience.
[1:43] SPEAKER_00: And there's no law saying you can't do that.
[1:45] SPEAKER_00: That's what he's saying.
[1:46] SPEAKER_00: So, however, that has traditionally taken a very long time to do.
[1:51] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[1:51] SPEAKER_00: But AI makes it very possible.
[1:55] SPEAKER_00: So the whole internet is fucking going crazy.
[1:59] SPEAKER_00: And again, it's still pretty early on, but he has created his own basic suite, okay, of apps.
[2:05] SPEAKER_00: And and and you know, we're talking Illustrator, Photoshop, Premiere, InDesign, Jesus.
[2:11] SPEAKER_00: Right?
[2:11] SPEAKER_00: Really?
[2:12] SPEAKER_00: Everything.
[2:13] SPEAKER_00: And uh, and this was all because of some termination fees.
[2:17] SPEAKER_00: So, what's that prompt look like?
[2:20] SPEAKER_01: Chat, make me uh build me the software suite.
[2:23] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, check this out.
[2:24] SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you a screenshot of Illustrator, yeah.
[2:26] SPEAKER_00: Just build it for me.
[2:28] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[2:29] SPEAKER_01: Wow, that is fucked up.
[2:31] SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I th I think this is kind of worth talking about.
[2:33] SPEAKER_01: And history repeating itself because did the did the not did not that same thing happen to the guy from Netflix?
[2:40] SPEAKER_01: He he got uh pissed off with all the all the late fees that he was getting from Blockbuster, so he created his own.
[2:46] SPEAKER_01: And where's Blockbuster now?
[2:48] SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
[2:49] SPEAKER_00: So so here and the funny thing is Netflix tried selling to Blockbusters and they said that's block who?
[2:56] SPEAKER_00: What?
[2:57] SPEAKER_00: You're furry at that.
[2:58] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so moral of the story, you can charge late fees, okay, and don't piss off people.
[3:03] SPEAKER_00: See everybody, we're done.
[3:04] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[3:06] SPEAKER_00: So easy.
[3:07] SPEAKER_00: Adobe's that company that, you know, it's a love-hate thing.
[3:10] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[3:10] SPEAKER_00: Actually, I don't even know if it's a love thing anymore, but we do love to hate on Adobe.
[3:14] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[3:15] SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's it's one of those companies.
[3:17] SPEAKER_00: And I mean, last year, you know, Affinity came out, said they were free, going head to head with Adobe years before other apps have come out and after Adobe, right?
[3:27] SPEAKER_00: And so it's trying to understand what this relationship is that designers have with Adobe.
[3:33] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[3:33] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[3:34] SPEAKER_00: And again, is it that we're we're customers?
[3:36] SPEAKER_00: Is it that we're family and in a relationship?
[3:38] SPEAKER_00: Is it that we're just being held hostage?
[3:41] SPEAKER_00: Like everybody has everybody has different reasons why they have, you know, angst or animosity towards Adobe.
[3:49] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[3:49] SPEAKER_00: But I don't know, unless you're getting a sponsorship deal from Adobe, I don't know many people that love Adobe.
[3:56] SPEAKER_00: Oh.
[3:56] SPEAKER_00: Well, and remember in the early days with Apple?
[3:59] SPEAKER_00: When you were an early Apple user, an early Mac user, you'd proudly wear that that that's the sticker on your window.
[4:06] SPEAKER_00: Sticker on your car?
[4:07] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
[4:08] SPEAKER_00: And it would be like the Jeep nod.
[4:09] SPEAKER_00: Anytime you'd pass another car.
[4:11] SPEAKER_00: They knew.
[4:12] SPEAKER_00: They knew that, you know, those who knew knew.
[4:15] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[4:15] SPEAKER_00: And it was, it was the little just the Apple symbol.
[4:18] SPEAKER_00: And everyone's, well, who's it?
[4:19] SPEAKER_00: It's like a cult or something.
[4:20] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's the cult of Mac.
[4:22] SPEAKER_00: So there's an affinity towards Apple products, even still.
[4:25] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
[4:25] SPEAKER_00: Because people feel that way towards their phones.
[4:28] SPEAKER_00: I am born and bred, baby.
[4:30] SPEAKER_00: Right?
[4:30] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[4:30] SPEAKER_00: But you don't see people flashing Adobe stickers on their laptops or on their skateboards or, you know, like on their car.
[4:38] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[4:39] SPEAKER_00: Right?
[4:39] SPEAKER_00: So this is where it's like, you know, is this just an it is it just because we're forced to, right?
[4:44] SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
[4:44] SPEAKER_00: Like, there's no question that they dominate the space still.
[4:47] SPEAKER_00: For sure.
[4:48] SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it's gonna take for that to ever change.
[4:51] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't I don't see that happening anytime soon.
[4:55] SPEAKER_01: I I mean, is it gonna be massive like they were what in 2023?
[4:59] SPEAKER_01: I think that was like their apex of when they were also all kinds of people coming in and we're no now in in that amount short amount of time, I think Infinity is really kind of you know Well, and Affinity has rocked the boat.
[5:14] SPEAKER_00: There's there's other software, you know.
[5:16] SPEAKER_00: But again, does that even matter for a company like Adobe, right?
[5:19] SPEAKER_00: Because it's I think it does, yeah.
[5:20] SPEAKER_01: Because like again, you got uh like somebody like Will Will Patterson.
[5:24] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[5:25] SPEAKER_01: He's he's full on affinity, affinity, right?
[5:28] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
[5:29] SPEAKER_01: And I mean, that's kind of a big deal.
[5:31] SPEAKER_00: He's he's he's and I love Will.
[5:34] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's and and if I'm not mistaken, I believe James Martin is also part of the affinity crew.
[5:39] SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
[5:39] SPEAKER_00: But let's flip that to the other side.
[5:41] SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay, Chris Doe, yeah, Adobe Crew, right?
[5:44] SPEAKER_00: Uh James Bernard, Adobe Crew.
[5:46] SPEAKER_00: If I'm not mistaken, Alan Peters.
[5:48] SPEAKER_00: Uh this is just in our little network.
[5:50] SPEAKER_00: In our and I mean it goes so deep, it goes so much deeper than that.
[5:54] SPEAKER_00: Now, not to say that, you know, Affinity or Canva is is anything to frown at.
[5:58] SPEAKER_00: They are a billion-dollar brand and they're they're grown like crazy.
[6:02] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, but you know, I mean, is is Adobe even worried?
[6:05] SPEAKER_00: Because it seems like, you know, they've they've built, although they haven't built cult status, okay, there's not a cult of Adobe, they have built professional status, which that's the concerning part.
[6:18] SPEAKER_00: And maybe that might be what they're riding on right now because it's still up the professional's brand.
[6:25] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[6:25] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[6:26] SPEAKER_00: Not saying that Affinity can't do what Adobe can, and not saying that this these new things can't, right?
[6:32] SPEAKER_00: Because again, we can get into that a little bit later.
[6:34] SPEAKER_00: But, you know, for whatever reason, it's like we have built, you know, our world, our reputation, our who we are based on using these products.
[6:43] SPEAKER_00: And I feel dirty for saying that, because I really don't like Adobe, right?
[6:47] SPEAKER_00: But again, well, I don't.
[6:50] SPEAKER_00: And again, I think it was because, you know, um, initially I I had that whole sense of, you know, you helped define me as a designer, and yet I just realized that, you know, you really don't care for me at all, right?
[7:01] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was that that that talk that we had with Chris, and he made it seem just so like he really kind of hit that changed everything for me, right?
[7:11] SPEAKER_00: Made me realize that there was no love coming the other way, right?
[7:14] SPEAKER_00: There was nothing.
[7:14] SPEAKER_00: Between that, and he was like, You're you're foolish to think that that they owe you anything.
[7:18] SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's true.
[7:19] SPEAKER_00: Um that wasn't it at all.
[7:21] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, so let's talk about this other app, okay?
[7:23] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think it's called Artcraft.
[7:25] SPEAKER_00: Artcraft.
[7:26] SPEAKER_00: Let's just be clear, okay?
[7:27] SPEAKER_00: It isn't one guy.
[7:29] SPEAKER_00: He's a small team.
[7:30] SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
[7:30] SPEAKER_00: There's a few of them, of course, and it wasn't one prompt.
[7:33] SPEAKER_00: It was like about three weeks worth of prompting and building and prompting and building, right?
[7:38] SPEAKER_00: So it was a process, but they built a very alpha version of the entire suite of products.
[7:48] SPEAKER_00: I I downloaded it.
[7:49] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[7:49] SPEAKER_00: I abs and I think everybody should, okay?
[7:52] SPEAKER_00: I think everybody you can download it at getartcraft.com forward slash apps.
[7:59] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[8:00] SPEAKER_00: So getArtcraft.com forward slash apps, okay?
[8:04] SPEAKER_00: And again, download it, opens up in your Mac, installed no problem, opened up the Illustrator version, I played with it, right?
[8:10] SPEAKER_00: And it felt like, you know, um, you know, maybe an illustrator five years ago, right now.
[8:15] SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
[8:16] SPEAKER_00: Okay, interesting.
[8:17] SPEAKER_00: You could you could use the tools, they were familiar enough.
[8:20] SPEAKER_00: Okay, everything was there, it was creating the vectors, and I I played with it for maybe 20 minutes.
[8:25] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[8:25] SPEAKER_00: Okay, just more so for this episode because this came really quick.
[8:28] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[8:29] SPEAKER_00: And it was okay.
[8:30] SPEAKER_00: It felt early, but it was okay.
[8:33] SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this and then I haven't gone into their Photoshop, but reviews looked similar, okay?
[8:38] SPEAKER_00: And again, with the understanding that this isn't the here, and here it is.
[8:43] SPEAKER_00: This is not even a beta, this is an alpha product.
[8:47] SPEAKER_00: Like it's not even it's it's it's technically so new.
[8:50] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[8:51] SPEAKER_00: So if if they're already doing this, what's it gonna look like in you know, three months, four months?
[8:57] SPEAKER_00: Like this is mind-blowing, okay?
[8:59] SPEAKER_00: And it's fucking free, which is crazy.
[9:02] SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely free for now.
[9:05] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[9:06] SPEAKER_00: Get artcraft.com is a whole AI platform where you buy credits, generate images, and this and that.
[9:12] SPEAKER_00: They did these apps as a free download.
[9:16] SPEAKER_00: And then I think what will probably happen is they're gonna sell credits and they'll probably attach AI to it just like Adobe claims to do.
[9:22] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[9:23] SPEAKER_00: That's what it looks like right now, is what because that's what the other side of the business is.
[9:27] SPEAKER_00: Yep.
[9:27] SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, so there inevitably there will be some sort of, you know, they're gonna have to make money somehow.
[9:31] SPEAKER_00: Yes, I was just gonna say, like, but I think that's I think it's gonna be the same model as as what Adobe is.
[9:36] SPEAKER_01: It's it's like the difference.
[9:37] SPEAKER_01: Like Affinity's doing.
[9:38] SPEAKER_01: That's what Affinity is doing.
[9:40] SPEAKER_01: Exactly, yeah.
[9:40] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
[9:40] SPEAKER_01: It's like they'll have an opportunity to gouge you, but they probably won't.
[9:45] SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I'm saying?
[9:46] SPEAKER_01: Which is kind of a refreshing in this space of ours.
[9:51] SPEAKER_00: Tell me about it, right?
[9:53] SPEAKER_00: So let's just be clear, okay.
[9:54] SPEAKER_00: I don't know for sure if this is yet professional grade software yet.
[9:58] SPEAKER_01: All right.
[9:59] SPEAKER_01: We're not rolling this out to our major clients.
[10:01] SPEAKER_00: No, I wouldn't say we'd be even rolling it out to the team.
[10:04] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[10:04] SPEAKER_00: But it's something that, you know, somebody could absolutely use.
[10:08] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[10:08] SPEAKER_00: It is the interesting part is that it's AI generated software, okay?
[10:12] SPEAKER_00: It was built in a fraction of the time using, you know, love it or hate it, AI in this case.
[10:18] SPEAKER_00: AI is not only changing the cost, but in this case, like the development time in creating something like this, right?
[10:23] SPEAKER_00: Which is freaking phenomenal, right?
[10:25] SPEAKER_00: But regardless, there has always been AI apps, free apps that have been coming after Adobe, right?
[10:31] SPEAKER_00: Like even before Affinity, there was GIMP.
[10:34] SPEAKER_00: Oh, right?
[10:34] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[10:35] SPEAKER_00: Remember that?
[10:35] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[10:36] SPEAKER_00: Not that there was competition, but there was also Corel Draw, right?
[10:40] SPEAKER_00: Okay, but it's a pretty bad example, of course.
[10:41] SPEAKER_00: You know, but again, you know, Canva was kicking around for a few years.
[10:44] SPEAKER_00: So there's always been people after Adobe.
[10:48] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[10:48] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[10:49] SPEAKER_00: But has it actually ever changed?
[10:51] SPEAKER_00: Because if I'm not mistaken, I think this quarter was like a record-breaking quarter for them.
[10:56] SPEAKER_00: It was, yes.
[10:57] SPEAKER_00: Which is fucking mind-blowing.
[10:59] SPEAKER_00: Insane, right?
[10:59] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[11:00] SPEAKER_00: And now here's a part I don't understand.
[11:01] SPEAKER_00: So it was a record-breaking quarter, yet their stock has dropped from$600 to$200 in the past five years.
[11:09] SPEAKER_00: Wow.
[11:09] SPEAKER_00: So they've taken a huge tank.
[11:11] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[11:11] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[11:11] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[11:12] SPEAKER_00: Their net new annual recurring revenue fell 40%.
[11:19] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[11:20] SPEAKER_00: 40%.
[11:20] SPEAKER_00: 40%.
[11:21] SPEAKER_00: So now what that's saying is um, you know, they're still making money from their big corporate gigs.
[11:26] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[11:26] SPEAKER_00: Or a place like this where it's like one contract gets them 10 licenses.
[11:30] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[11:30] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[11:31] SPEAKER_00: Um, but their new signups has dropped.
[11:35] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[11:36] SPEAKER_00: It might not necessarily be the choice of new designers and students and such like this, which that's that's kind of what we called a couple months.
[11:44] SPEAKER_00: Last year.
[11:44] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[11:45] SPEAKER_00: Last year, yeah.
[11:45] SPEAKER_00: We were saying that's probably the direction.
[11:47] SPEAKER_00: These other companies are having a long-term play.
[11:49] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[11:50] SPEAKER_00: So I found that really interesting to think that, you know, that the the behemoth is still the behemoth, which is freaking nuts.
[11:57] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[11:57] SPEAKER_00: So so I I don't exactly know what to make of this, you know, if this is something that we're stuck with until we end up retiring, or or if somebody actually, you know, has something that is gonna affect, you know, Adobe's bottom line and their future growth.
[12:10] SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
[12:11] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[12:11] SPEAKER_00: I mean, the thing is, why haven't we left?
[12:15] SPEAKER_00: And that's what I'm trying to shake my head with.
[12:16] SPEAKER_00: Why haven't we left Adobe yet?
[12:18] SPEAKER_00: Because we complain about it.
[12:19] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[12:20] SPEAKER_00: I I it's like a love hate relationship.
[12:22] SPEAKER_00: Every year I hate paying for that subscription.
[12:24] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll bet.
[12:24] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[12:25] SPEAKER_00: I don't love anything about the software other than the fact that it's a tool.
[12:27] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[12:28] SPEAKER_00: I know some people in the in the auto industry, they're proud of their Mac tools, you know, and not Mac, Apple, Mac.
[12:34] SPEAKER_00: They're Macy's Mac tools, right?
[12:35] SPEAKER_00: They're proud of using their tools, right?
[12:38] SPEAKER_00: I nerd out over my PowerBook, right?
[12:40] SPEAKER_00: My MacBook Pro.
[12:41] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[12:42] SPEAKER_00: I do not.
[12:43] SPEAKER_00: I don't nerd out over it.
[12:44] SPEAKER_00: It is like I I I hate when I have to give them their money.
[12:48] SPEAKER_00: So, but I haven't left.
[12:50] SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing, right?
[12:51] SPEAKER_00: So, and again, I'm this is what I'm trying to figure out is why haven't more people left?
[12:56] SPEAKER_00: Unless it's just unless they just make that that that that cancellation policy so damn complicated.
[13:03] SPEAKER_01: Well, apparently, and I believe they got sued for like$150 million.
[13:07] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's next to impossible.
[13:09] SPEAKER_01: Yes, which is so it is a very real uh thing.
[13:13] SPEAKER_01: And I think that and and here's the thing with Adobe that that I I think a lot of people may have soured on it.
[13:19] SPEAKER_01: It's because of stuff like that.
[13:20] SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
[13:21] SPEAKER_01: Like they were they were teasing you with the with the down the free downloads, uh unlimited uh use of Firefly and all this kind of business, and then it's all credits and and you know it's that now they're gonna start charging you for all this kind of thing.
[13:35] SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, right?
[13:35] SPEAKER_01: It's ridiculous.
[13:36] SPEAKER_00: That's a shitty thing to do.
[13:38] SPEAKER_00: We have to remember that they really don't care about us.
[13:42] SPEAKER_00: They really don't.
[13:44] SPEAKER_00: They don't, you know.
[13:45] SPEAKER_00: Loyalty is a relationship.
[13:48] SPEAKER_00: Okay, but Adobe, they're just a fucking subscription.
[13:52] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[13:52] SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
[13:53] SPEAKER_00: Everything they do, the events they do, it's not because they care about the industry.
[13:57] SPEAKER_00: It's not because they actually want to promote designers and promote the advancement of what's good and what's right and what's because if that's the case, they wouldn't have flooded the Adobe stock website with 90% AI images if they actually gave a shit.
[14:11] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[14:11] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[14:12] SPEAKER_00: In my opinion, it's still a business, and they found more ways on how to actually make more money.
[14:16] SPEAKER_00: Make more money, exactly.
[14:17] SPEAKER_00: And then you got some people that go on about the ecosystem, the Adobe ecosystem.
[14:21] SPEAKER_00: And okay, wow, this is turning into a I hate Adobe episode.
[14:25] SPEAKER_00: And it's not meant to be.
[14:26] SPEAKER_00: It's not meant to be.
[14:27] SPEAKER_00: But when you start talking, it's just like, wow, you try to unravel in your mind why you're still sticking around with this company.
[14:34] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[14:34] SPEAKER_00: So, you know, they they built this ecosystem that you think is like the Apple ecosystem.
[14:39] SPEAKER_00: The Apple ecosystem is brilliant.
[14:40] SPEAKER_00: So you're thinking, okay, well, maybe the Adobe ecosystem is why we have a environment like this.
[14:46] SPEAKER_00: You know, we we can share files on the Adobe platform.
[14:50] SPEAKER_00: We can, you know, if I update my Photoshop, my Illustrator, the image that I've embedded, automatically updates.
[14:55] SPEAKER_00: Updates, yeah.
[14:56] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it doesn't really work like that.
[14:58] SPEAKER_00: You know, there's virtually no advantage.
[15:01] SPEAKER_00: I mean, as a team environment here, we don't benefit from the ecosystem.
[15:05] SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's just the way we operate.
[15:07] SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe individually, if we need files, we just share them.
[15:10] SPEAKER_00: We don't, you know, pull in from a you know a resource file that everybody shares on.
[15:15] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[15:15] SPEAKER_00: We know what that's like.
[15:16] SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, we have customers who use OneDrive or SharePoint.
[15:20] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[15:20] SPEAKER_00: How's that ecosystem working for them?
[15:23] SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if anybody's able to actually use the Adobe ecosystem in their please let me know.
[15:29] SPEAKER_00: Hit me up.
[15:29] SPEAKER_00: I'm curious on this one.
[15:31] SPEAKER_00: I really am.
[15:32] SPEAKER_00: Because I don't know if if it is a valuable ecosystem, then I get why you'd stick around.
[15:39] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but then it becomes a trap.
[15:40] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think for something like that, we the limited use that we have with these products.
[15:46] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[15:46] SPEAKER_01: And the and it's really the big three, maybe four, with the video stuff.
[15:50] SPEAKER_00: Really, though.
[15:51] SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, again, and even for us, do you do you use the video?
[15:54] SPEAKER_00: Oh, I do.
[15:54] SPEAKER_00: I do actually use Premiere Purdue.
[15:56] SPEAKER_01: And I use Audition, which I'm using right now.
[15:58] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[15:59] SPEAKER_00: Fair enough.
[15:59] SPEAKER_01: Well, and you know, yeah.
[16:01] SPEAKER_00: Uh Illustrator, Photoshop.
[16:02] SPEAKER_00: I don't touch InDesign.
[16:03] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, InDesign.
[16:04] SPEAKER_00: Unless you have to.
[16:06] SPEAKER_00: No, I don't even need I'll still build a 40-page brochure in Illustrator.
[16:11] SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, guys.
[16:12] SPEAKER_00: I know that's bad.
[16:13] SPEAKER_00: I I love pre-design to that use.
[16:17] SPEAKER_00: I mean, not 40-page brochure.
[16:20] SPEAKER_00: You'd have to be.
[16:21] SPEAKER_00: Some of our team members are going to be conversation.
[16:27] SPEAKER_00: She cringes every time.
[16:30] SPEAKER_00: I think we're just used to bugging her about it.
[16:33] SPEAKER_00: But I mean, again, it's it there's a handful of apps that we use, but we're using the whole platform or we're paying for a whole lot paying for everything.
[16:41] SPEAKER_00: Well, so here's the thing.
[16:42] SPEAKER_00: What's it gonna take for us to stay loyal to this company then?
[16:45] SPEAKER_00: Because again, I'm ride or die.
[16:47] SPEAKER_00: Oh, are you really?
[16:48] SPEAKER_00: I am, I am.
[16:49] SPEAKER_00: I don't know, man.
[16:50] SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, I I but at the same time, I don't know what it would take to get me away from it either.
[16:55] SPEAKER_00: Is it actually the best software to use, or is it just the hardest one to get out of then once you're into them?
[17:03] SPEAKER_00: It's like the mafia of all ops.
[17:06] SPEAKER_00: Once you're in, you just can't leave it's an offer.
[17:09] SPEAKER_01: We can't refuse.
[17:10] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[17:11] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[17:11] SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I you know it's funny.
[17:13] SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
[17:14] SPEAKER_01: I do I do like it.
[17:15] SPEAKER_01: I prefer I I don't think I would want to use anything else.
[17:20] SPEAKER_01: Can you justify paying for all these things that you're not even using?
[17:25] SPEAKER_01: It's funny.
[17:26] SPEAKER_01: I I I I I keep I keep hearing Chris in my head, you know, about Chris D I know.
[17:34] SPEAKER_01: But he was he was absolutely right.
[17:35] SPEAKER_01: He was like, he was like, you know, Netflix doesn't make you money.
[17:40] SPEAKER_01: Adobe makes you money.
[17:42] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
[17:43] SPEAKER_01: So there is a there is there is a value and paying their paying for their tools.
[17:48] SPEAKER_01: Right.
[17:48] SPEAKER_01: I get that in that respect.
[17:50] SPEAKER_01: Like you, I don't know, you bake it into your costs overhead, your operating costs, and you just kind of bury it in.
[17:56] SPEAKER_00: The thing that Chris that I didn't like about my conversation with Chris was the fact that it made me feel dumb about this whole loyalty thing.
[18:02] SPEAKER_00: Right, I know about this whole, and I mean again, you know, uh rightfully so.
[18:07] SPEAKER_00: It's like you're right, they don't owe me shit.
[18:08] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
[18:09] SPEAKER_00: And I get that, right?
[18:10] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[18:11] SPEAKER_00: So, you know, was I just being loyal to Adobe all these years, right?
[18:15] SPEAKER_00: Or maybe was I being loyal, or was I being insecure?
[18:20] SPEAKER_00: Okay, and and there's a kind of a different way to think about it, right?
[18:23] SPEAKER_00: Like, am I so in in wrapped into that system and it's part of who I am and it's part of the tools I use, and there's a comfort factor that I'm insecure to leave, and I don't even realize it.
[18:35] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[18:35] SPEAKER_01: Well, dude, back in the old days, you know, being a master of Photoshop was a badge of honor, right?
[18:42] SPEAKER_01: That was is it now?
[18:43] SPEAKER_01: And it's not now.
[18:44] SPEAKER_01: And it goes back to our conversation we had last week about you know what the real value of what designers bring to the table, right?
[18:51] SPEAKER_01: It's not your tools anymore.
[18:53] SPEAKER_00: It's not the tools, so it's not the mastering of the tools.
[18:56] SPEAKER_00: So because that used to be tied to your professional identity.
[18:59] SPEAKER_00: That's exactly it, right?
[19:00] SPEAKER_00: And and it was cool to be like, oh, I use Photoshop.
[19:03] SPEAKER_00: People like, oh, that's cool, yeah, yeah.
[19:05] SPEAKER_00: Right?
[19:06] SPEAKER_00: And it was like that that hot word that everybody knew what it meant, you know, but they they they didn't know how to use it.
[19:11] SPEAKER_00: Nobody knew what it meant.
[19:12] SPEAKER_00: And it was actually cool that it was expensive, so nobody would just get it for the sake of it.
[19:17] SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
[19:17] SPEAKER_00: So now these free apps are maybe um things discrediting, evenly, leveling out the leveling it out, yeah, exactly.
[19:26] SPEAKER_00: And I think this is what's gonna happen with AI software development, right?
[19:30] SPEAKER_00: Because we build our processes around the softwares that we subscribe to.
[19:36] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[19:36] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[19:37] SPEAKER_00: You you you subscribe to a project management app.
[19:40] SPEAKER_00: Well, you've got to do project management the way the app says to do it, right?
[19:44] SPEAKER_00: And remember for us, there was no app that worked for us.
[19:47] SPEAKER_00: What we tried like four or something.
[19:49] SPEAKER_00: And I remember that.
[19:50] SPEAKER_00: Every week it was like, uh, here's another one.
[19:52] SPEAKER_00: And it got to the point where it was like, screw it.
[19:55] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have the means, we'll build our own.
[19:58] SPEAKER_00: That the the fact that we built one, the way we work here, it catapulted, you know, our efficiency.
[20:03] SPEAKER_00: It is awesome.
[20:04] SPEAKER_00: It's an awesome plot.
[20:05] SPEAKER_00: Our customers love it.
[20:06] SPEAKER_00: We create our own brand around it, right?
[20:08] SPEAKER_00: So our, you know, and and it's not a project management, it's a project tracking app, right?
[20:14] SPEAKER_00: And because of this app, we're cranking out two, three thousand projects a year, largely based on this app.
[20:20] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, customers are happy, we're happy, but we had the means to build it ourselves, okay?
[20:25] SPEAKER_00: Which, you know, not not everybody does.
[20:26] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[20:27] SPEAKER_00: But now with AI, yeah, people can build apps that'll do for them just what they needed to do.
[20:34] SPEAKER_00: I was on a live um call yesterday with a few people from the James' designers group, okay.
[20:40] SPEAKER_00: And um Ryan was one of the designers on there, he's also in Instagram, he rocks, and um, he ended up, you know, showing us what he had built already.
[20:48] SPEAKER_00: And he was building custom apps for his own use for his channel.
[20:51] SPEAKER_00: Okay, Ryan Salvi, if you guys want to check it out.
[20:54] SPEAKER_00: And it was incredible to see that he is a designer, graphic designer, actually, motion motion graphics guy.
[21:00] SPEAKER_00: And um, he is building these apps, and these apps were phenomenal, but he was using them for his own purpose.
[21:05] SPEAKER_00: Dashboards, the content he was pulling in that was gonna help him with his YouTube videos and his Instagram videos, exactly.
[21:11] SPEAKER_00: So he wasn't buying an off-the-shelf platform, he was building it for him, he was creating something himself, right?
[21:16] SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's what's happening.
[21:19] SPEAKER_00: That's what potentially AI is doing in this space because it's I'm thinking now there are some small vibe-coded apps that I built because I didn't want to like buy.
[21:28] SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to do, yes, exactly.
[21:29] SPEAKER_00: I was like, I don't want 30, 40 features.
[21:32] SPEAKER_01: Just give me this one thing I need to do.
[21:34] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, perfect.
[21:35] SPEAKER_01: So there you go.
[21:36] SPEAKER_01: You answered your own question.
[21:37] SPEAKER_01: You go in there and you build yourself Illustrator 6.
[21:40] SPEAKER_01: Holy shit, right?
[21:40] SPEAKER_00: We're gonna go back, go back in time.
[21:42] SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
[21:43] SPEAKER_00: Oh, bring back the Venus to Milo and my opening.
[21:47] SPEAKER_00: I missed her.
[21:48] SPEAKER_00: Oh, she was so beautiful, wasn't she?
[21:50] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[21:51] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean that's necessity is is creating this.
[21:55] SPEAKER_00: Honestly, AI assisted development could be.
[22:00] SPEAKER_00: The future of a lot of the tools that we use.
[22:03] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[22:03] SPEAKER_01: Like obviously Ryan is was experiencing difficulty with just finding the stuff for him.
[22:08] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[22:09] SPEAKER_01: And then so, well, fuck it.
[22:10] SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to do it myself because I'm not going to A B test the shit like we did with all that software.
[22:15] SPEAKER_01: It was like that was a pain in the ass.
[22:17] SPEAKER_01: So it was better to just build it yourself.
[22:19] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[22:20] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[22:20] SPEAKER_00: That's actually kind of an interesting document.
[22:22] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's kind of neat.
[22:22] SPEAKER_00: Wait, and that could very well be what the future of software design is going to be.
[22:27] SPEAKER_00: Do you need the full Adobe suite?
[22:29] SPEAKER_00: No.
[22:29] SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're a new freelance, I doubt that anybody's even jumping in on that.
[22:33] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[22:34] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[22:34] SPEAKER_00: And that keeps costs low for you, too.
[22:37] SPEAKER_00: If you've got free software that you're going to be able to do it.
[22:39] SPEAKER_00: Why wouldn't you jump into something like Affinity or something like that?
[22:41] SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
[22:42] SPEAKER_01: Yes.
[22:42] SPEAKER_00: If you're a team or a small agency like us, yeah, that's different.
[22:47] SPEAKER_00: If you're already in there, it's hard to get out.
[22:50] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[22:50] SPEAKER_00: Because again, it's not just me, you know, changing my ways or you changing your ways.
[22:55] SPEAKER_00: We got to change a whole team.
[22:56] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[22:57] SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that's that's kind of like a to come down one day and say, okay, guys, you know, we're gonna stop using Adobe now and we're forcing you to use something else, there's gonna be quite the curve.
[23:06] SPEAKER_00: I can see people being a little pissy about it.
[23:08] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that would be hard.
[23:09] SPEAKER_00: I can see it not going, but that has to something has to change in the future because I can't imagine, you know, this being sustainable for Adobe in the future.
[23:17] SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
[23:18] SPEAKER_00: And then again, if you're just a content creator, well, you definitely don't need Adobe.
[23:22] SPEAKER_00: So it seems like Adobe has really cornered that larger market, right?
[23:27] SPEAKER_00: Where, you know, smaller shops, more independents, content creators, they might not have a need for this, especially now when there's all these free options that are just kind of just in that horizon, yeah.
[23:37] SPEAKER_00: You know, on the horizon there for you.
[23:38] SPEAKER_01: And and again, we talked about this before, too.
[23:41] SPEAKER_01: It's like you said 40% of people aren't signing up or there's no the annual reoccurring revenue sign-ups.
[23:50] SPEAKER_01: They're choosing to opt out.
[23:51] SPEAKER_01: Yes, so they're they're yeah, so they've found a different way to do this, they're obviously not getting out, yeah, yeah, kind of thing, right?
[23:58] SPEAKER_01: So I mean I think you're gonna see a lot more of that, and that's I'm gonna guess that's the younger generation doing that.
[24:05] SPEAKER_00: Well, people who are less, and it's not not less loyal, because in all fairness, loyalty has nothing to do with this.
[24:11] SPEAKER_00: I'm not sticking to Adobe due to loyalty.
[24:14] SPEAKER_01: And the kids are certainly not doing it.
[24:17] SPEAKER_01: I would be more that way.
[24:19] SPEAKER_01: You're just gonna ride or die.
[24:21] SPEAKER_01: What a horrible tool.
[24:22] SPEAKER_00: I am I know this is but but it's just so it's so okay.
[24:26] SPEAKER_00: But what if they all of a sudden so what if A, you had to pay for your own tools coming in here, like some shops do, so you have mechanics, fair enough, and then they doubled the rates.
[24:35] SPEAKER_00: Then what would you do?
[24:37] SPEAKER_01: Now that would be shitty.
[24:38] SPEAKER_01: I would bitch, yeah, but I would just get my fucking wallet out and I would and I'd read for the group.
[24:53] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm I'm on board.
[24:55] SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
[24:56] SPEAKER_01: I just I I can't I couldn't do this to me and and and especially it you know in in our kind of scenario where it's the get shit done shop, you know, you can't you can't you don't have time to learn something new.
[25:09] SPEAKER_01: You know, it's very it's very difficult to and and to throw a new a new illustrator on me would be you know it'd be hard to it would be hard to get shit done.
[25:21] SPEAKER_00: It's true, it's true, it's true, it's true, it's true.
[25:23] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think then maybe what we have to do is just see how this plays out in the future with this art craft.
[25:29] SPEAKER_00: Um now, I mean, I'm not gonna lie, the brand kind of sucks.
[25:33] SPEAKER_01: It does, it did look kind of crappy.
[25:35] SPEAKER_00: If it's for designers, they need a designer's help.
[25:37] SPEAKER_01: But was this a joke?
[25:38] SPEAKER_01: Or is this serious?
[25:40] SPEAKER_00: Serious, it's a serious competitor.
[25:42] SPEAKER_00: Wow.
[25:42] SPEAKER_00: And you is a buggy right now, yeah.
[25:45] SPEAKER_00: It's not even at a beta stage, it's at an alpha stage.
[25:48] SPEAKER_00: Does it have the tools?
[25:49] SPEAKER_00: You know, you within 10 minutes, I was like, okay, yeah, that's that tool.
[25:53] SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's you know, so you know, like so the familiarity is there.
[25:57] SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay.
[25:58] SPEAKER_00: Um, I really wish they they did a better job on their um, their brand is pretty gross.
[26:03] SPEAKER_00: You guys just need to look at it for a joke, okay?
[26:05] SPEAKER_00: The colors are awful.
[26:06] SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, right?
[26:07] SPEAKER_00: You can you can tell it wasn't a designer who built this, that's for sure.
[26:10] SPEAKER_00: It was definitely an engineer.
[26:12] SPEAKER_00: So they could employ.
[26:13] SPEAKER_00: So if you guys want uh an interesting UI project, head over to ArcCraft.com, people.
[26:21] SPEAKER_00: But it's worth checking out.
[26:23] SPEAKER_00: For sure.
[26:24] SPEAKER_00: Designers have more choice than they realize.
[26:26] SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay, true.
[26:27] SPEAKER_00: Again, Affinity is a pretty damn polished um, you know, it is a it's a great product, and again, it's another billion-dollar brand.
[26:34] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's free for students, okay?
[26:37] SPEAKER_00: It's easy entry to, you know, entry to the game, you know, instead of having to pay a license.
[26:42] SPEAKER_00: Now with this art craft company, you know, this is something that within like, geez, honestly, I give it four to six months, it'll be, it'll be right there.
[26:51] SPEAKER_00: We might have another video on on how to actually exit and go on to it.
[26:54] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because we might have done that by then.
[26:56] SPEAKER_00: And the funny thing is, it's it's not even that um, you know, I didn't mean for this to be a hate on Adobe episode.
[27:02] SPEAKER_00: It's not.
[27:02] SPEAKER_00: I love it.
[27:03] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[27:06] SPEAKER_00: I'm definitely not loyal to it.
[27:08] SPEAKER_00: You're certainly not loyal to it.
[27:10] SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's a product that I have come to accept.
[27:13] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[27:14] SPEAKER_00: That it's like I'm using it, but I'm only using it probably more than anything out of convenience.
[27:19] SPEAKER_00: And because it's just the effort to change at this point, you're right.
[27:22] SPEAKER_00: I'm maybe I'm a little bit like you.
[27:24] SPEAKER_01: Yes, and and that's why I'm I'm I'm loyal to it.
[27:26] SPEAKER_01: But would you recommend it to anybody?
[27:28] SPEAKER_01: I would not.
[27:29] SPEAKER_01: No.
[27:29] SPEAKER_01: That's the thing.
[27:30] SPEAKER_01: And isn't that funny, right?
[27:31] SPEAKER_01: I would not, I would say, but it's all the it's the price point.
[27:35] SPEAKER_01: Really?
[27:35] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[27:36] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[27:36] SPEAKER_01: Because I mean it's a fabulous, like those Illustrator and Photoshop, oh chef's kiss.
[27:43] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, there's a reason why people are making apps to that mimic those programs, right?
[27:49] SPEAKER_00: Because they're really fucking good.
[27:51] SPEAKER_00: You know, I think the reason why I am not recommending it is because that cult part is missing.
[27:56] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[27:57] SPEAKER_00: The cult part.
[27:57] SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the important part for me.
[28:00] SPEAKER_00: It's like I am, you know, loyal to Apple.
[28:02] SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure Apple doesn't give two shits.
[28:03] SPEAKER_00: Apple doesn't care about it.
[28:04] SPEAKER_00: But they do a better job at faking it.
[28:08] SPEAKER_00: They do, right?
[28:08] SPEAKER_00: Right, they do.
[28:09] SPEAKER_00: And and for years I, you know, had tied my identity to them just like, and there probably was a point in history where, you know, I I would have had an Adobe, you know, sticker on my laptop.
[28:19] SPEAKER_00: It's just it's not there anymore.
[28:21] SPEAKER_00: And they have um not sold out, but they have, you know, um definitely not proven that they are actually there for us the same way.
[28:28] SPEAKER_00: No, I think they're I think if somebody like Affinity does come out and be like the designer's tool, we're here for designers, I think there's an opportunity for it.
[28:36] SPEAKER_00: And I think it I think Affinity definitely is doing something right.
[28:39] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that.
[28:40] SPEAKER_00: I would agree with that.
[28:42] SPEAKER_00: And technically speaking, this other company, you know, is is on the right track with their development, with their software.
[28:47] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[28:48] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[28:48] SPEAKER_00: Where you know, you got a company like Adobe who's actually laying off developers and and designers, and and they're pumping up the marketing dollars and the marketing to designers.
[28:57] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[28:58] SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
[28:58] SPEAKER_00: So designers have options.
[29:00] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[29:01] SPEAKER_00: And based on where you are at in your career and what you want to do, it's just nice to know that you know you're not chained anymore like we were.
[29:09] SPEAKER_00: This would be a very different conversation three years ago.
[29:11] SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
[29:12] SPEAKER_00: There was there's nothing available to us.
[29:14] SPEAKER_00: And boy, did you feel limited.
[29:16] SPEAKER_00: You know, you felt changed.
[29:17] SPEAKER_01: And and you felt like you were, you know, getting hosed, yes.
[29:23] SPEAKER_00: Every time that screen would pop up, it's like they should have you know the opening song, you know, the opening sound?
[29:31] SPEAKER_00: It should have been a cash register symbol.
[29:33] SPEAKER_01: Chit ching.
[29:35] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they do tend to look at us like giant wallets, don't they?
[29:39] SPEAKER_01: Yes, I know.
[29:40] SPEAKER_00: Like listen, I'd like to know um if anybody else there is using uh Adobe as a team, and if you actually are taking advantage of the group of software, um, you know, seriously, check out this new hot software, this um artcraft.com forward slash apps.
[29:56] SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's worth checking out.
[29:58] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's absolutely worth checking out.
[29:59] SPEAKER_00: And I have, I really suspect that they're gonna keep going and uh because let me tell you, there's nothing, there is nothing that's more motivating than somebody telling you you can't do it or somebody pissing you off or somebody making you angry and revenge can take you far, people.
[30:20] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's absolutely true.
[30:21] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all right, guys.
[30:22] SPEAKER_00: Yeah let us know what you think about this.
[30:24] SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to sign up for our newsletter, Anger Management for Designers.
[30:28] SPEAKER_00: Okay, a little bit of this, we've got some fun stuff in there, and we are revamping a few things in the near future, so I don't want you guys to miss anything that's coming up.
[30:36] SPEAKER_01: All right, yes.
[30:37] SPEAKER_01: My name is Massimo, my name is Sean.
[30:39] SPEAKER_01: Stay creative and stay angry.

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