# Like Bodies Through a Meat Grinder

An episode of [Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1526682330), 26 Nov 2025, 56 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/fb8d36cf-b165-4399-b277-ae2701747cf3/fb8b4951-7311-44ac-a12b-b39a0170e59a/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=664846e2-642c-49b7-82d8-ae2701747d14

Phelps dives deeper, trying to separate fact from rumor, while new suspects come into play—and a third teen murder rocks the town of Weatherford. But could a noted serial killer be responsible for Vincent and Shelly’s murders? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:10] Speaker 1: Parker County, Texas is one of those places where you
[0:13] Speaker 1: can't get away from the people. You heard, the type
[0:17] Speaker 1: of claustrophobic atmosphere that comes of such a tight knit
[0:21] Speaker 1: community where everybody knows everybody's business, where a sidelong glance
[0:27] Speaker 1: in the grocery store or a bless your Heart carries
[0:31] Speaker 1: more weight than outsiders might register. And for families at
[0:36] Speaker 1: the heart of this murder case, as time passed and
[0:40] Speaker 1: law enforcement was no closer to solving Vincent and Shelley's murders,
[0:45] Speaker 1: it all seemed to enhance the pain both families felt.
[0:59] Speaker 1: Did you and Ronnie ever get with Vincent's family and
[1:03] Speaker 1: talk about stuff? No, what happened between the two of you? Anything?
[1:10] Speaker 2: Okay? One day I had been to the police station,
[1:15] Speaker 2: and then I came over to Debbie's, which she was
[1:18] Speaker 2: my Bluebird assistant. She was the lady that the girl
[1:22] Speaker 2: stayed with when we left. So for some reason, they
[1:26] Speaker 2: show up glad to meet you, and the first thing
[1:29] Speaker 2: the mama says to me is Shelley had a cloud
[1:32] Speaker 2: of death over her. What she says, Shelley had a
[1:37] Speaker 2: cloud that has had always had a cloud of death
[1:40] Speaker 2: over her when she would come to our home, she
[1:42] Speaker 2: would have that dark cloud of death on her.
[1:47] Speaker 1: Those remarks stunned Janetta.
[1:57] Speaker 2: So then she went into telling me, and there's two
[2:01] Speaker 2: things in my head. Okay with this, and that's the
[2:06] Speaker 2: way I've always thought, But there's two things I've never
[2:09] Speaker 2: wanted to hear. Is that she was tortured.
[2:16] Speaker 3: She was.
[2:18] Speaker 2: In my head, I don't know. I just have this
[2:21] Speaker 2: vision of they're out there and they're just aggravating her,
[2:27] Speaker 2: just you know, like pushing her, and outside of the car.
[2:32] Speaker 2: And they told me they were outside of the car
[2:35] Speaker 2: in eighty three. The police, Yes, they told me they
[2:40] Speaker 2: were outside of the car.
[2:44] Speaker 1: That strange conversation with Vincent's mother started playing like a
[2:48] Speaker 1: movie reel in Janetta's mind. Suddenly there were all these
[2:56] Speaker 1: horrific images in her head of what might have happened
[3:00] Speaker 1: to Shelley. So she contacted the Weatherford police.
[3:10] Speaker 2: And I've told them I want to see some pictures.
[3:14] Speaker 2: I want to see some pictures. And he said, I
[3:16] Speaker 2: got a picture of her shoes. You want to see
[3:19] Speaker 2: her shoes. So he showed me her shoes. Her shoes
[3:23] Speaker 2: were clean, and her clothes were Maddy, How.
[3:32] Speaker 1: Could Shelley's tennis shoes be clean and her clothes muddy
[3:36] Speaker 1: if she was at some point outside the car in
[3:41] Speaker 1: the rain. If you recall from the previous episode, Vincent
[3:47] Speaker 1: Senior's brother Raymond, said he saw an imprint in the
[3:50] Speaker 1: ground next to the side of the car where Shelley
[3:54] Speaker 1: was found sitting inside the vehicle, and he believed Shelley's
[3:58] Speaker 1: head had made that indentation.
[4:05] Speaker 2: And then that brings up another whole subject. They had
[4:10] Speaker 2: a dedication to a bench at the police station for
[4:14] Speaker 2: Shelley and Vincent. So as Ronnie and I were leaving
[4:19] Speaker 2: after all ceremony and thing was over, as this guy,
[4:23] Speaker 2: deputy come running out and no it wasn't deputy, it
[4:27] Speaker 2: was the chief. Then he come running out and handed
[4:31] Speaker 2: was going to hand me Shelley's clothes, and my brother
[4:34] Speaker 2: stopped him. He said, you are not giving those to her.
[4:39] Speaker 2: You're not giving those no, And so I did not
[4:42] Speaker 2: know that's what was going on. So my brother those
[4:46] Speaker 2: clothes had been at his house since that day. Some
[4:49] Speaker 2: people are saying they were never there, but well, you know,
[4:53] Speaker 2: I don't know then. I don't know what he did
[4:55] Speaker 2: with them. But of course he told me several times.
[4:58] Speaker 2: I've got him, They're okay.
[5:01] Speaker 1: The idea that the Weatherford Police would give clothing from
[5:06] Speaker 1: a murder victim in an ongoing open murder investigation back
[5:11] Speaker 1: to the victim's family is fundamentally ridiculous. Not only would
[5:17] Speaker 1: it be insensitive, but as far as evidence goes completely incompetent.
[5:22] Speaker 1: Even if they were done lifting any trace evidence or
[5:26] Speaker 1: potential DNA from the clothing, there would be prosecution and
[5:30] Speaker 1: chain of custody issues to consider. I asked current lieutenant
[5:35] Speaker 1: in the Weatherford PD, Johnny Qualls, if he could confirm
[5:40] Speaker 1: the clothing was given back to the family. He said
[5:43] Speaker 1: he had heard the same thing, but had no idea
[5:47] Speaker 1: if it was true. I asked where this evidence is now.
[5:56] Speaker 1: He didn't know. The families of Shelley and Vincent Junior
[6:05] Speaker 1: decided to have a joint viewing of the bodies in
[6:09] Speaker 1: town at a local funeral home two separate rooms, Shelley
[6:13] Speaker 1: in one, Vincent in the other. Same time, people could
[6:19] Speaker 1: walk in, pay their respects, offer condolences to the families,
[6:23] Speaker 1: sit and reflect before leaving. Tell me about that what happens?
[6:34] Speaker 2: Okay, my girlfriend, we were outside. There was two guys
[6:40] Speaker 2: that walks in and one had a black cowboy hat on.
[6:43] Speaker 2: I saw my brother and he asked this one boy.
[6:46] Speaker 2: He went down and he came back, and my brother
[6:49] Speaker 2: stopped him. He said something about him, He said something
[6:53] Speaker 2: about him, you know, And so he stopped him and
[6:56] Speaker 2: he said, did you know Shelley and Vincent? And he
[7:01] Speaker 2: said he just kind of looked at him and walked off.
[7:04] Speaker 2: And the other guy came from Vincent and he said
[7:08] Speaker 2: that they met up at the top, kind of just
[7:13] Speaker 2: shook head and left.
[7:16] Speaker 1: I spoke to multiple people who were at the viewing,
[7:20] Speaker 1: and they all reported seeing the same two men dressed
[7:23] Speaker 1: tip to toe in cowboy garb, stetson's boots, wranglers. They
[7:29] Speaker 1: walked in, went up to the bodies, did not kneel,
[7:32] Speaker 1: crossed themselves, offer condolences, or say anything to anyone. Instead,
[7:38] Speaker 1: they took a mental picture of the bodies, as if
[7:42] Speaker 1: making sure the kids were dead, and walked out the
[7:45] Speaker 1: front door together. And yet that wasn't the end of it.
[7:51] Speaker 1: Something else happened after they walked out of the funeral home,
[7:55] Speaker 1: something quite bizarre. In fact, I.
[8:02] Speaker 2: Bet it wasn't thirty minutes until my girlfriend and her
[8:05] Speaker 2: husband and everybody were outside and she came in and
[8:09] Speaker 2: she said, Johnny, the church is on fire. The church
[8:12] Speaker 2: is on fire. Said what she said, The church is
[8:15] Speaker 2: on fire, and she said, this black truck when it
[8:19] Speaker 2: started being on fire, this black truck come flying by.
[8:26] Speaker 1: Others reported to me they saw those same two men
[8:29] Speaker 1: walk across the street and into the church just before
[8:33] Speaker 1: the fire started. What do you think that was?
[8:38] Speaker 4: I don't know.
[8:40] Speaker 2: To me, it's gotten the light, sending a message. You know,
[8:44] Speaker 2: we did it.
[8:45] Speaker 1: There you are. Everyone else felt the same way. The
[8:50] Speaker 1: two men who came to the viewing and left abruptly
[8:54] Speaker 1: were the same men who started the church fire. Newspaper
[8:58] Speaker 1: accounts later support the chaotic scene that night and the fire.
[9:05] Speaker 1: The message most came away with afterward was leave it alone,
[9:11] Speaker 1: let it be, go on with your lives and forget
[9:15] Speaker 1: about this.
[9:25] Speaker 2: But also there was a fire start at Debbie's house
[9:29] Speaker 2: in her back like in her back room.
[9:37] Speaker 1: You've heard from Debbie earlier in the podcast, the neighbor
[9:41] Speaker 1: who was watching Shelley and her sister that weekend of
[9:44] Speaker 1: the murders. When was this?
[9:48] Speaker 2: This was during all of the funeral after all?
[9:51] Speaker 1: Love that really?
[9:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I kind of at that point, I just
[9:58] Speaker 2: I kind of stayed away from Debbie because I didn't
[10:00] Speaker 2: want any problems for her.
[10:04] Speaker 1: The fire at the church and fire at Debbie's was
[10:07] Speaker 1: only the beginning. There were several more suspicious fires in
[10:13] Speaker 1: town over the next several weeks.
[10:18] Speaker 2: They set a fire at some house. They tell me
[10:21] Speaker 2: I haven't seen it. They tell me that there was
[10:24] Speaker 2: a fireproof box there that had a note in it
[10:27] Speaker 2: saying you're getting too close to the cauliflower case.
[10:36] Speaker 1: Previously on paper ghosts, it.
[10:39] Speaker 3: Was to me it was a premeditated murderer.
[10:43] Speaker 5: It was playing.
[10:45] Speaker 2: He couldn't have been in a long place at the
[10:46] Speaker 2: long time.
[10:48] Speaker 4: They pulled me in for murder, and then they also
[10:51] Speaker 4: pulled my old brother in murder.
[10:54] Speaker 1: They pulled you in from murder for who's murder for
[10:57] Speaker 1: those kids.
[10:58] Speaker 6: I know it's going to throw a loop, but I
[11:00] Speaker 6: kind of feel that her father, Ronnie Cauliflyer, was involved
[11:03] Speaker 6: in it, or at least knew of something going on.
[11:07] Speaker 6: I've tried contacting him through his daughter, called, left messages,
[11:13] Speaker 6: text message, Facebook. I can't get him to call back.
[11:16] Speaker 6: My dad always with his brother, he would always say
[11:20] Speaker 6: had he put it, I leave you two to one
[11:24] Speaker 6: that he's involved some form or fashion. Is what my
[11:27] Speaker 6: dad would say.
[11:29] Speaker 1: My name is. I'm William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist
[11:33] Speaker 1: and the New York Times bestselling author of dozens of
[11:37] Speaker 1: true crime books. This is season five of Paper Ghosts.
[11:43] Speaker 1: The Texas Team Murders. Cold case investigation involves various stages.
[12:09] Speaker 1: In the early days, you collect information and try not
[12:13] Speaker 1: to allow any of it to steer you in a
[12:17] Speaker 1: particular direction. Talk to people, Listen, follow up. Match what
[12:24] Speaker 1: you are hearing against the known evidence. Allowing people to
[12:29] Speaker 1: tell their stories can bring the truth to the surface
[12:33] Speaker 1: like a sunrise, slow and steady. There had been at
[12:40] Speaker 1: one time some tension between Ronnie Colliflower and Debbie Billingsley,
[12:47] Speaker 1: and to this day they still do not speak. Ronnie
[12:51] Speaker 1: seemed to blame Debbie for allowing Shelley out that night,
[12:55] Speaker 1: when in truth, Janetta had been the one to give
[12:59] Speaker 1: the green light. Still, Debbie was now connected to these
[13:04] Speaker 1: kids forever, and according to Janetta, as you just heard
[13:10] Speaker 1: in the opening of the episode, somebody had set fire
[13:14] Speaker 1: to Debbie's house. Debbie knew one of the first investigators
[13:19] Speaker 1: in the case, Raymond Pritchard. The day of the murders,
[13:24] Speaker 1: Prichard and another investigator stopped by to fill her in
[13:29] Speaker 1: on what had happened and to see if Debbie had
[13:32] Speaker 1: any information.
[13:38] Speaker 4: And they came in and he sat down and he said, Debbie,
[13:41] Speaker 4: he said, we've got some really bad news. He said,
[13:44] Speaker 4: Shelley and Vincent's bodies were found this morning and they're
[13:47] Speaker 4: both deceased. And I couldn't grasp that, I guess, and
[13:55] Speaker 4: I just looked at him. You know, I was real
[13:58] Speaker 4: confused because I didn't understand how they could just be
[14:03] Speaker 4: gone like that. So I told him everything we had
[14:07] Speaker 4: done the night before, and he proceeded to tell me
[14:11] Speaker 4: that Vincent's father was the one that found him. And
[14:16] Speaker 4: then later that day, Johnetta called me and all she
[14:21] Speaker 4: kept saying was Debbie, you have to help me find her.
[14:26] Speaker 4: And I said what can I do? And she said,
[14:29] Speaker 4: can you come out here to my house? So I
[14:31] Speaker 4: went out there and she just kept telling me she's
[14:35] Speaker 4: sitting in the bedroom and she said. She took hold
[14:37] Speaker 4: of my hands and she said, you got to help
[14:39] Speaker 4: me find her. She said, I can't lose her. You
[14:42] Speaker 4: have to help me find her. And I guess that
[14:46] Speaker 4: was her way of just trying to kind of deal
[14:48] Speaker 4: with it, and some other people came in and I
[14:53] Speaker 4: stepped out into the hallway and Ronnie came in and
[14:57] Speaker 4: told me that I needed to leave. So I didn't
[15:01] Speaker 4: question anything. I just left.
[15:08] Speaker 1: Ronnie Colliflower had been in and out of the house
[15:11] Speaker 1: that morning, one would assume dealing with all that was
[15:15] Speaker 1: going on. In the last episode, you heard Troy Nichelis,
[15:20] Speaker 1: Shelley's cousin, say that his father, Ronnie's brother, was suspicious
[15:27] Speaker 1: of Ronnie. He gave no specific reason, but Troy's father
[15:32] Speaker 1: thought Ronnie knew more than he was sharing. While Debbie
[15:37] Speaker 1: was at the Collieflower house that day, Ronnie came home.
[15:43] Speaker 4: And Ronnie came in and told me that I needed
[15:45] Speaker 4: to leave. So I didn't question anything. I just left.
[15:53] Speaker 1: And how was Ronnie when he came in?
[15:57] Speaker 4: He was angry. I stepped out into the hallway. He
[16:01] Speaker 4: come in the hallway from another room and he said,
[16:04] Speaker 4: I need you to leave, and I said, okay, I
[16:09] Speaker 4: can do that, and he said, no, I want you
[16:11] Speaker 4: out of my house now. And that's when it dawned
[16:15] Speaker 4: on me. He did not know that she had given
[16:18] Speaker 4: me permission for Shelley to go. I never said anything.
[16:22] Speaker 4: I just left and that was too hard of a
[16:25] Speaker 4: time to try to explain anything, and so I just left.
[16:28] Speaker 4: And I don't know exactly when he found out that
[16:32] Speaker 4: she had told me it was okay.
[16:34] Speaker 1: Debbie took on the responsibility of being Shelley's adult babysitter
[16:39] Speaker 1: for that weekend and could make the call if she
[16:42] Speaker 1: chose to. Ronnie Will agreed to have Debbie watch the
[16:47] Speaker 1: kids knew this. Of course, Debbie was not about to
[16:53] Speaker 1: miss the funeral just because Ronnie had an issue with her,
[16:58] Speaker 1: so she went anyway. While she was up at the
[17:02] Speaker 1: casket paying her respects viewing Shelley's body, something struck her
[17:08] Speaker 1: about the condition of Shelley's remains.
[17:15] Speaker 4: Shelley had scratches all over her arms and her rot side.
[17:21] Speaker 4: I didn't see the left side, but both arms were scratched,
[17:25] Speaker 4: her hands were scratched, and her right side was scratched
[17:27] Speaker 4: up on her neck. And I questioned Johnetta. I said,
[17:32] Speaker 4: where did these marks come from? And she said, I
[17:34] Speaker 4: don't know. They won't tell me anything.
[17:38] Speaker 1: In speaking with Janetta, it's clear she loved Debbie and
[17:41] Speaker 1: had no issue with her. After all, Debbie had fallen
[17:45] Speaker 1: on her sword during that traumatizing period right after the murders,
[17:51] Speaker 1: taking responsibility for allowing Shelley out on the date, never
[17:56] Speaker 1: revealing to Ronnie that Janetta had given the okay.
[18:01] Speaker 4: And we stayed in touch for a while, and then
[18:03] Speaker 4: later on she just kind of like cut all ties
[18:07] Speaker 4: with me. And I don't know if it's because she
[18:09] Speaker 4: couldn't face Ronnie to tell him that she had said
[18:12] Speaker 4: it was okay. I don't know, and so I just
[18:14] Speaker 4: let it go. And then the next thing I knew,
[18:16] Speaker 4: she had left and moved away from Weatherford and her
[18:20] Speaker 4: and Ronnie had completely split up.
[18:24] Speaker 1: When I said earlier, bizarre things began to happen. It
[18:29] Speaker 1: wasn't just those fires and Ronnie acting suspicious in those
[18:33] Speaker 1: early days after the murders, and what were people saying.
[18:41] Speaker 4: I talked to the detectives multiple times. A couple of
[18:44] Speaker 4: other guys came up told me they were with the
[18:46] Speaker 4: Weatherford Police Department and needed to speak to me. They
[18:50] Speaker 4: showed me a badge. I let them in, We talked,
[18:54] Speaker 4: I told them what I knew.
[18:56] Speaker 1: They left in the aftermath, BE contacted the investigator she
[19:03] Speaker 1: had been speaking with at the Weatherford Police Department to
[19:07] Speaker 1: find out why they had sent different investigators to her house,
[19:12] Speaker 1: and he.
[19:13] Speaker 4: Says, Debbie, those are not policemen. He says, don't talk
[19:16] Speaker 4: to them anymore. Then another guy came said he was
[19:19] Speaker 4: with the Texas Rangers, had a badge, and I believed him.
[19:30] Speaker 1: Debbie had given Shelley fifty cents, two quarters and a
[19:34] Speaker 1: piece of paper that night. She had written her phone
[19:38] Speaker 1: number and address on the paper, explaining to Shelley that
[19:42] Speaker 1: if she ran into any trouble, call and Debbie would
[19:46] Speaker 1: come right out to get her and not ask any questions.
[19:50] Speaker 1: Debbie says, the Weatherford Police Department found those quarters, but
[19:56] Speaker 1: the piece of paper with her address and phone number
[19:59] Speaker 1: was miss.
[20:02] Speaker 4: I got very scared, and especially knowing that someone had
[20:06] Speaker 4: taken that piece of paper with my name and phone
[20:09] Speaker 4: number on it, because the corners were still in Shelley's pocket,
[20:12] Speaker 4: but the paper was gone. So we moved from where
[20:16] Speaker 4: we were, and then about a year later we completely
[20:19] Speaker 4: left Weatherford. I didn't feel safe there.
[20:29] Speaker 1: What were people saying around town about who could have
[20:32] Speaker 1: done this?
[20:33] Speaker 4: Oh, there was multiple, multiple scenarios. The talk around town
[20:38] Speaker 4: was Shelley and Vincent come up on a drug deal
[20:41] Speaker 4: and got killed out of way Another rumor was that
[20:47] Speaker 4: the one that killed them, they were the one dealing
[20:49] Speaker 4: the drugs and they killed them, that they were killed
[20:52] Speaker 4: at a different location, their bodies brought back where they
[20:55] Speaker 4: were found and their bodies were positioned in the car there.
[21:00] Speaker 4: And another rumor was that Vincent killed her and then
[21:04] Speaker 4: killed hisself.
[21:05] Speaker 3: You know.
[21:06] Speaker 4: Another one was there was infatuated with Shelley and wanted
[21:11] Speaker 4: her and he wasn't gonna let Vincent have her because
[21:13] Speaker 4: Vincent was Mexican. That was the words they used back then.
[21:17] Speaker 4: There was just all kinds of rumors and at different
[21:20] Speaker 4: points it kind of, you know, like you didn't know
[21:23] Speaker 4: what to believe because the police weren't telling me anything.
[21:26] Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, it wasn't too long after
[21:30] Speaker 4: the police, the two detectives that were working that case
[21:34] Speaker 4: were taken off of it and moved to different One
[21:36] Speaker 4: was let go and one was moved to the probation department.
[21:39] Speaker 1: And why do you think that was?
[21:41] Speaker 4: I think because they knew who did it and they
[21:44] Speaker 4: weren't going to let anything come of it. Weldon Kennedy
[21:47] Speaker 4: on a meatpacking plant there in Weatherford, and they used
[21:51] Speaker 4: to traffic a lot of drugs and people from Mexico
[21:55] Speaker 4: into Weatherford, and from Weatherford up through Oklahoma and on out,
[21:58] Speaker 4: and they weren't going to let anything become of it.
[22:01] Speaker 4: And that's what really gave me credence to believe that
[22:05] Speaker 4: had something to do with it. I never had anything
[22:09] Speaker 4: put in my hand that said, here's the proof. But
[22:12] Speaker 4: as time went on and more that was talked and
[22:15] Speaker 4: more that was said, I do believe it. I do
[22:19] Speaker 4: believe that both had something to do with their deaths.
[22:22] Speaker 4: Not going to sit here and say that they pulled
[22:24] Speaker 4: the triggers or they did what. I don't know that.
[22:27] Speaker 4: I had gone over to the sister's house with a
[22:30] Speaker 4: friend of mine one time. This was years later. We
[22:34] Speaker 4: went in his sister made a cup coffee and we
[22:37] Speaker 4: were sitting around talking and came in and sat down
[22:39] Speaker 4: at the table, and I knew who he was, but
[22:43] Speaker 4: he didn't know who I was. I told my friend,
[22:45] Speaker 4: I said it's time for us to go. I just
[22:48] Speaker 4: couldn't be in the same room with him. She didn't understand,
[22:53] Speaker 4: and so when we left, I told her what the
[22:55] Speaker 4: deal was and she says, oh, no, she wouldn't have
[22:59] Speaker 4: had any anything to do with that. There's no way
[23:02] Speaker 4: get out in his house for six months to a
[23:05] Speaker 4: year after those kids were killed, because he was too
[23:08] Speaker 4: afraid to come out. And I said, yeah, he was
[23:10] Speaker 4: afraid because he was part of it. Oh no, no, no, no,
[23:15] Speaker 4: he's totally innocent. And I said, well, I don't believe that,
[23:18] Speaker 4: but that's what his sister had told her, and so
[23:21] Speaker 4: she fullheartedly believed that.
[23:30] Speaker 1: Debbie ran into the guy whose name I censored, the
[23:33] Speaker 1: same one you've heard many of my sources mentioned. Not
[23:37] Speaker 1: long after that visit to his sister's house.
[23:47] Speaker 4: We went back by there one time to drop some
[23:49] Speaker 4: stuff off, and I didn't get out and go in,
[23:52] Speaker 4: but come out to the in the garage, to the van,
[23:56] Speaker 4: and he says, Debbie, he said, I have to tell
[23:59] Speaker 4: you I didn't have anything to do with Shelley and
[24:02] Speaker 4: Vincent's murder. He said, I didn't have anything to do
[24:06] Speaker 4: with it. I am totally innocent. I didn't have anything
[24:10] Speaker 4: to do with it. And he just kept saying that
[24:12] Speaker 4: over and over, and he started crying, and he says,
[24:15] Speaker 4: you have to believe me. I didn't have anything to
[24:17] Speaker 4: do with it. And I said, if you didn't, who did?
[24:22] Speaker 4: Do you know who did? He never would say he
[24:25] Speaker 4: knew or he did not know. I said, if you
[24:27] Speaker 4: didn't do it or have anything to do with it,
[24:30] Speaker 4: who did? And he never would answer me, So I
[24:34] Speaker 4: don't know if he knew and was just afraid for
[24:37] Speaker 4: his own luck. I don't know.
[24:54] Speaker 1: Ronnie COYLEI Flower, was not someone I would even consider
[24:58] Speaker 1: a person of interest in what is a growing list
[25:03] Speaker 1: of suspects. Why would Ronnie, if he knew anything, agree
[25:08] Speaker 1: to hire mel Mitchell, a private investigator, to look into
[25:12] Speaker 1: the murders all these years later. At face value, that
[25:17] Speaker 1: would make no sense if he was involved, Not to mention,
[25:22] Speaker 1: he loved Shelley and had brought her up as his
[25:25] Speaker 1: own daughter from the time she was a toddler. But
[25:31] Speaker 1: I still needed to talk to Ronnie and ask questions
[25:34] Speaker 1: only he could answer. Several people had mentioned his brother
[25:39] Speaker 1: as someone I needed to look into, that his brother
[25:44] Speaker 1: had connections back to the names I have been censoring
[25:49] Speaker 1: in the podcast, and that his brother was the best
[25:53] Speaker 1: meth cook in the county. I don't believe Ronnie's brother
[26:00] Speaker 1: was ever a potential suspect, but he could have information
[26:04] Speaker 1: about the case, seeing that he knew all of the
[26:07] Speaker 1: main suspects very well. While I was in Weatherford. Ronnie
[26:15] Speaker 1: seemed to be circling me, showing up at various places
[26:20] Speaker 1: I had been or coincidentally in the same area. I
[26:24] Speaker 1: was mel Mitchell and Laurie Kates, the Facebook administrator of
[26:29] Speaker 1: the Justice page who had first reached out to me,
[26:33] Speaker 1: told me Ronnie was very hesitant, but he had finally
[26:37] Speaker 1: agreed to meet me at my hotel and allow me
[26:41] Speaker 1: to interview him. So I waited, and then I got this.
[26:47] Speaker 2: When I mentionaged you, you had a feeling that he
[26:50] Speaker 2: might back out.
[26:50] Speaker 4: Sure that he took off and his friend went out
[26:54] Speaker 4: the back to try to.
[26:55] Speaker 1: Get him, and he had already left his friends a lot.
[26:59] Speaker 7: What the call.
[27:00] Speaker 2: We don't understand, you know, we don't know he was
[27:03] Speaker 2: going to go with you and then.
[27:04] Speaker 5: He backed out.
[27:06] Speaker 8: Did tell his friends about meeting with you? What before
[27:13] Speaker 8: I'd even talked about it or came over there.
[27:16] Speaker 4: They said that he is said, well, he didn't he
[27:19] Speaker 4: didn't know what a podcast was.
[27:21] Speaker 8: And you know, was thinking about meeting. So hopefully it's
[27:27] Speaker 8: just because he had a few beers.
[27:30] Speaker 1: Maybe hopefully that's.
[27:32] Speaker 8: What it was. But anyways, I just wanted to let
[27:34] Speaker 8: you know that he staged.
[28:03] Speaker 5: People report to us that there were two individuals, two
[28:06] Speaker 5: males that came in. Yeah, I guess most people didn't recognize.
[28:11] Speaker 5: And one person went to Vincent's side and kind of
[28:14] Speaker 5: looked in on the casket. The other person went to
[28:16] Speaker 5: Shelley's side, looked in on the casket, and then kind
[28:19] Speaker 5: of met up in the middle. And people are kind
[28:21] Speaker 5: of looking at them, thinking okay, or they introduce themselves,
[28:23] Speaker 5: We're gonna say hi, like hey, we knew Shelley, we
[28:26] Speaker 5: knew Vincent.
[28:27] Speaker 8: But they didn't do any of that.
[28:28] Speaker 5: They just kind of whenever they're looked in the caskets
[28:30] Speaker 5: and kind of met in the middle and then left.
[28:33] Speaker 1: I met mel Mitchell one morning in front of the church,
[28:37] Speaker 1: which had been set on fire during the viewing of
[28:40] Speaker 1: Shelley and Vincent's bodies. We talked out front. I had
[28:45] Speaker 1: her go step by step through what she had found
[28:48] Speaker 1: out about the viewing. And those two cowboy characters seemingly
[28:53] Speaker 1: straight out of Central Casting, as if they had stepped
[28:57] Speaker 1: off the set of the iconic am see crime drama
[29:01] Speaker 1: Breaking Bad.
[29:03] Speaker 5: Apparently they kind of peeled out or sort of kind
[29:06] Speaker 5: of making a scene a little bit in front of
[29:09] Speaker 5: the funeral home and then sped off. So a lot
[29:12] Speaker 5: of people kind of felt that was off, more suspicious,
[29:15] Speaker 5: didn't know why they would act that way. Literally right
[29:19] Speaker 5: across the street, like you saw, just how closed that the.
[29:22] Speaker 8: Church and the funeral home are.
[29:23] Speaker 5: I mean, right there, someone set fire to that church
[29:27] Speaker 5: and it was It's in the newspaper, is Arson, and
[29:30] Speaker 5: so no one knows who set that fire.
[29:34] Speaker 1: It's kind of like a threat, right, So two cowboys
[29:37] Speaker 1: show up and then a church catches on fire.
[29:40] Speaker 8: I would think it'd be a long intimidation line. Sure. Absolutely.
[29:49] Speaker 1: As we talked outside, Mel decided to go into the
[29:52] Speaker 1: funeral home and ask if they kept records dating back
[29:55] Speaker 1: to nineteen eighty three. Generally speaking, when the body is
[30:00] Speaker 1: prepared for a wake and funeral, the embalmber notes abnormalities
[30:05] Speaker 1: and details the condition of the body. Its standard practice
[30:11] Speaker 1: in the industry. Nearly everyone who had seen Shelley's body
[30:16] Speaker 1: that Mel and I had spoken to said the same thing.
[30:20] Speaker 1: The right side appeared to show evidence that Shelley had
[30:24] Speaker 1: been dragged through a brier patch, scratched and bruised. This
[30:31] Speaker 1: is significant in my view. If true, it could change
[30:36] Speaker 1: the entire dynamic of the motive a drug hit if
[30:40] Speaker 1: you will, that wrong place, wrong time motive would generally
[30:45] Speaker 1: be quick in execution, but if Shelley had been beaten
[30:50] Speaker 1: or dragged, it could point to a more sexual motive.
[30:55] Speaker 1: Stranger Still, that autopsy report left on the door step
[31:00] Speaker 1: of Shelley's cousin never mentions scratches or bruises on Shelley's body.
[31:08] Speaker 1: I'll be going through that report in a future episode,
[31:11] Speaker 1: but it's quite scant on any specific detail and seems
[31:16] Speaker 1: to tell only half the story. Even those attending the
[31:21] Speaker 1: view and were shocked to see how obvious it was
[31:24] Speaker 1: that Shelley's body had injuries on the right side of
[31:28] Speaker 1: her face and arms. Getting notes from the embomber might
[31:33] Speaker 1: clear it all up and give us some sort of
[31:36] Speaker 1: understanding of those alleged injuries on Shelley's body. As mel
[31:43] Speaker 1: went into the funeral home, well I waited outside that.
[31:48] Speaker 5: It was, But when the families reached out to them,
[31:52] Speaker 5: they told both families that all those reports were sent
[31:56] Speaker 5: over to the.
[31:56] Speaker 8: Sheriff's apartment or to Parker County, Okay.
[32:01] Speaker 5: So they're not able to get the reports from Emmy's
[32:04] Speaker 5: office because apparently they sent all the original copies of
[32:08] Speaker 5: the tops reports.
[32:10] Speaker 1: There are parts of this case, and I am unsure
[32:13] Speaker 1: if they can even be considered related or not. Born
[32:17] Speaker 1: strictly out of social media, the new age town hall
[32:21] Speaker 1: for spreading information and more destructively misinformation, I have learned
[32:28] Speaker 1: to take what is reported on social media about murder
[32:32] Speaker 1: investigations with a very skeptical eye. In the early days
[32:39] Speaker 1: of the case, there were three names synonymous with being
[32:43] Speaker 1: connected to the murders, accusations of which were generated by
[32:48] Speaker 1: town gossip and the rumor mill. It got so bad
[32:53] Speaker 1: several people took to the pages of the editorial section
[32:57] Speaker 1: of the local newspaper to voice their concerns over accusing
[33:02] Speaker 1: these men, whose names I have been censoring throughout simply
[33:06] Speaker 1: because they have never been charged in the case. I
[33:11] Speaker 1: asked Weatherford Police Department Lieutenant Johnny Qualls, the current cold
[33:16] Speaker 1: case investigator looking into the murders, his thoughts about this, So,
[33:23] Speaker 1: how do you even begin to look at that? Because,
[33:26] Speaker 1: as you know, and I know, one of the worst
[33:28] Speaker 1: things about a cold case is all those rumors, especially
[33:32] Speaker 1: now with the Internet, So you get all of this
[33:36] Speaker 1: misinformation and you have to sift through it all to
[33:39] Speaker 1: find the facts right and I don't think record keeping
[33:43] Speaker 1: could have been that great in a town like small
[33:47] Speaker 1: town like Weatherford back then. So you have that element.
[33:50] Speaker 1: So how do you manage that?
[33:53] Speaker 3: Yeah, you just have that. Well you just said it.
[33:55] Speaker 3: You know, you have to really focus in and hone
[33:57] Speaker 3: in on the facts, and you have it's almost it's, uh,
[34:02] Speaker 3: you know, we don't have the advantage of going back
[34:05] Speaker 3: in time and and making that a more organized operation.
[34:08] Speaker 3: That's not a knock on any of those folks. That's
[34:10] Speaker 3: a part of that either. It's just like we don't
[34:12] Speaker 3: we can't go back in time and and fix any
[34:15] Speaker 3: of that or preserve anything that maybe they didn't think
[34:20] Speaker 3: or know to to preserve back then it might be
[34:22] Speaker 3: important today. So you really have to have to set
[34:25] Speaker 3: out on a fact finding mission of like, what are
[34:28] Speaker 3: the things that we know for sure, for sure or
[34:32] Speaker 3: at least fairly certain of that happened. And then uh,
[34:35] Speaker 3: and then you almost have to take your up I
[34:37] Speaker 3: don't know, maybe like a virtual reality and walk walk
[34:40] Speaker 3: your through itself through what that crime scene might have
[34:42] Speaker 3: looked like, and consult with experts on you know, whether
[34:46] Speaker 3: it's splits ladder or various other things and sure out
[34:50] Speaker 3: their opinions, but also not discount you know, the investigative
[34:55] Speaker 3: opinions and those very too, by the way, you know,
[34:57] Speaker 3: we have the general public with various opinions, and and
[35:00] Speaker 3: then we have various investigative opinions on top of that.
[35:03] Speaker 3: So but but go back and talk to we. We
[35:06] Speaker 3: did do that. We talked to you know, the original
[35:09] Speaker 3: case agent and various other people that were that there
[35:12] Speaker 3: were still around, that were still in that part. We
[35:14] Speaker 3: were fortunate that, you know, a lot of those folks
[35:16] Speaker 3: were still around and able to kind of fill in
[35:19] Speaker 3: some of those blank spots for us as far as
[35:22] Speaker 3: you know, well, what happened here, Why do we think
[35:24] Speaker 3: this happened here, or or why do we not know
[35:27] Speaker 3: this information?
[35:31] Speaker 1: So you found the victims, so there must have been
[35:33] Speaker 1: physical evidence obviously, and you have to determine if there
[35:37] Speaker 1: was a sexual assault or a rape right motive right.
[35:40] Speaker 3: Unfortunately, none of that, none of that stuff has panned
[35:43] Speaker 3: out for us so far. And I was told, I
[35:45] Speaker 3: was told. I was told before I ever started looking
[35:49] Speaker 3: at it. When people learned that I was looking at
[35:50] Speaker 3: that case that and I say that I was that
[35:53] Speaker 3: it was a team effort that we were looking at
[35:55] Speaker 3: that case.
[35:57] Speaker 8: Uh, there was.
[35:58] Speaker 3: A comment made to me. It is like, you know,
[36:00] Speaker 3: basically it was from someone that kind of knew the
[36:03] Speaker 3: state of all that stuff. I think, but you know
[36:05] Speaker 3: before I did. And it's like, good luck, you know,
[36:07] Speaker 3: so kind of like we shot. They do these uh
[36:10] Speaker 3: they do these little I don't remember exactly what all
[36:13] Speaker 3: goes into that equation, but they do these little solvability things,
[36:17] Speaker 3: you know. Uh, they looked at Okay, let's look at
[36:20] Speaker 3: all the cold cases we have. Let's do a solvability thing. Uh,
[36:24] Speaker 3: you know, give them a solvability score. And uh. And
[36:28] Speaker 3: I was told I never I never thought what those
[36:30] Speaker 3: seats looks like or anything like that. But I was
[36:32] Speaker 3: told by someone that was a part of that process
[36:34] Speaker 3: that that the that that one, the double homicide of
[36:39] Speaker 3: those kids was just like essentially, they feel like.
[36:41] Speaker 1: It was solvable. So when Mel returned from speaking with
[36:51] Speaker 1: the funeral home, she was optimistic. They did keep detailed
[36:56] Speaker 1: records and had those files from nineteen eighty three. What's more,
[37:03] Speaker 1: each embomber took copious, comprehensive notes regarding the condition of
[37:09] Speaker 1: each body. The director of the place said she'd look
[37:13] Speaker 1: for the file and those notes and call Mel as
[37:17] Speaker 1: soon as she found them. That was hopeful those notes
[37:22] Speaker 1: could clear up some information and, depending on what was
[37:26] Speaker 1: in the report, answer several questions. As you heard in
[37:31] Speaker 1: the last episode, after forty plus years, Shelley's autopsy report,
[37:37] Speaker 1: which nobody had been able to obtain through the Freedom
[37:41] Speaker 1: of Information Act or by any other means, shows up
[37:45] Speaker 1: inside the storm door of Shelley's cousin. I wondered if
[37:49] Speaker 1: Mel had any idea where this autopsy report came from
[37:55] Speaker 1: and why now? Also why was it given to Troy
[38:00] Speaker 1: nichelis Shelley's cousin, mainly because he was not one of
[38:05] Speaker 1: the relatives most invested in the case publicly? So how
[38:12] Speaker 1: do you get the autopsy report? Because records in this
[38:15] Speaker 1: case have been hard to come by, and all of
[38:17] Speaker 1: a sudden you get a copy of an autopsy report,
[38:20] Speaker 1: How do you get it? Where does it come from?
[38:22] Speaker 1: Who dropped it off?
[38:23] Speaker 5: Ellwood had given me some documents before he passed. I
[38:28] Speaker 5: was able to briefly see him quickly after we'd spent
[38:31] Speaker 5: some extensive time together, you know, over the summer. First
[38:34] Speaker 5: with me, I spent quite a bit of time with him,
[38:36] Speaker 5: interviewing and talking with him, another time I went out
[38:38] Speaker 5: there and saw him with Laurie. You know, I had
[38:40] Speaker 5: a little bit of time to swing by and say
[38:42] Speaker 5: hello again, and that's when he was able to give
[38:45] Speaker 5: me a few documents.
[38:47] Speaker 1: If you recall, Elwood Hohertz was the police chief at
[38:52] Speaker 1: the time of the murders. I asked mel about something
[38:56] Speaker 1: I had heard and if she had verified it with Hurts.
[39:03] Speaker 1: Right after Shelley was murdered, there were undercover officer's place
[39:07] Speaker 1: in the high school.
[39:09] Speaker 5: So I had asked Elwood about that, because according to
[39:13] Speaker 5: some of Shelley's family, there was some officers placed in there,
[39:18] Speaker 5: possibly one to learn about narcotics that's going through the
[39:22] Speaker 5: high school.
[39:23] Speaker 8: Also maybe to mail names.
[39:25] Speaker 1: Vincent's stepsister here of.
[39:27] Speaker 8: Ursus stepsister friend had just been murdered.
[39:30] Speaker 5: So when I asked Elwood about it, he had said that, yes,
[39:33] Speaker 5: he had had a couple because the narcotics was such
[39:38] Speaker 5: an extensive issue that they were trying to find out
[39:42] Speaker 5: where it's coming from, you know, any kind of information
[39:46] Speaker 5: that might get them to kind of quell a lot
[39:48] Speaker 5: of the narcotics.
[39:49] Speaker 1: Back then, nothing came out of it, no leads, no
[39:53] Speaker 1: new names, no new information. I was getting the feeling
[39:58] Speaker 1: that this drug can sounded good on paper fit into
[40:03] Speaker 1: a possible murder narrative. But beyond rumor and speculation, there
[40:07] Speaker 1: wasn't much actual evidence of it, at least none that
[40:12] Speaker 1: I could see any merit in at the time. And
[40:17] Speaker 1: it needs to be said, two things can be true
[40:21] Speaker 1: at the same time, so nothing can be discounted until
[40:26] Speaker 1: it is. For example, how many people eyewitnesses can put
[40:32] Speaker 1: the two most popular names connected to the murders by
[40:36] Speaker 1: rumor at the scene near the time we know the
[40:40] Speaker 1: kids were up on Piss Hill. Mel gives me two names.
[40:48] Speaker 5: Of course, some of the people that were across the street.
[40:51] Speaker 5: You know, they're talking about a vehicle that you know
[40:53] Speaker 5: may have appeared to be that way. But more importantly
[40:56] Speaker 5: in Ellwood, he actually talks about we discussed like he
[41:00] Speaker 5: was driving the car.
[41:01] Speaker 8: I knew that. You know, there's another person that we
[41:03] Speaker 8: believed that was there as a.
[41:06] Speaker 1: She mentions somebody connected to Weldon Kennedy, the sausage.
[41:11] Speaker 5: King, because when we started looking into this case, there
[41:14] Speaker 5: were always two names that were brought up every time
[41:16] Speaker 5: was And when I talked to Elwood about it, He's like, yeah,
[41:20] Speaker 5: we had done a polygraph on and he felled two
[41:24] Speaker 5: questions and you know, when I wanted to go back
[41:27] Speaker 5: and question some more, I was like, no, brought the
[41:30] Speaker 5: turning in.
[41:30] Speaker 8: She's like, you'll never talk to him again, and we
[41:32] Speaker 8: never did. And so he had told me He's like, yeah,
[41:36] Speaker 8: well I believe that he was the.
[41:38] Speaker 5: Driver, okay, And he kind of kind of was like, well,
[41:43] Speaker 5: I can't really prove that, you.
[41:44] Speaker 8: Know, hung out together. And I'm like, okay, well I
[41:47] Speaker 8: have others that can stay that they did.
[41:48] Speaker 5: He's like, oh, well that's the case, then we've been
[41:52] Speaker 5: driving and probably have been the shooter.
[41:56] Speaker 8: Okay. So he, coming from.
[41:58] Speaker 5: The police chaf wasn't denying these two people at the scene.
[42:13] Speaker 1: So the police chief at the time told mel Mitchell
[42:17] Speaker 1: he believed those two men were behind the murders, but
[42:22] Speaker 1: because of their connections to political and law enforcement officials,
[42:26] Speaker 1: they were told to stop investigating them as persons of interest.
[42:34] Speaker 1: What would be their motive? Is this a thing about Hey,
[42:37] Speaker 1: they just rolled up on them and they wanted to
[42:39] Speaker 1: rape Shelley, and so they did what they did. They
[42:42] Speaker 1: got rid of Vince and raped her.
[42:45] Speaker 5: By all accounts, was gay. So and of course you
[42:50] Speaker 5: know how it was in the eighties, Like you just
[42:51] Speaker 5: didn't talk about that because right After's murders basically has
[42:55] Speaker 5: dropped off the face of earth, like he left town
[42:57] Speaker 5: for a little while and then he came back and
[42:59] Speaker 5: just became a reclue.
[43:28] Speaker 1: Crime is America's great industry, even referred to more bombastically
[43:34] Speaker 1: as the Great Empire. And it seems to me that
[43:39] Speaker 1: throughout the plains of Parker County, Texas, back in the
[43:42] Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, an empirical criminal syndicate was not only active
[43:48] Speaker 1: within the fabric of everyday life, but a lot of
[43:51] Speaker 1: people in high positions were turning a blind eye. Several
[43:57] Speaker 1: things bothered me about what I was hearing on my sources.
[44:01] Speaker 1: For one, the amount of fires connected back to the murders,
[44:05] Speaker 1: one of which Weatherford Police Department Chief Elwood Hohertz in
[44:11] Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three came out and said publicly was set
[44:15] Speaker 1: to cover up evidence connected to the murders. Number two,
[44:21] Speaker 1: this sausage guy Weldon Kennedy. Mel Mitchell had run this
[44:25] Speaker 1: thread down over the past several years and looked at
[44:29] Speaker 1: Kennedy and a possible connection to the murders. I could
[44:34] Speaker 1: see it, but wasn't yet sold on a human trafficker
[44:38] Speaker 1: being involved in the murders of two local teens. I'd
[44:42] Speaker 1: need more context, additional links, some sort of evidence beyond
[44:48] Speaker 1: people talking. Moreover, as we will begin to explore in
[44:54] Speaker 1: the next episode, Vincent and Shelley were not the only
[44:59] Speaker 1: teens in Parker County during the same general time period,
[45:04] Speaker 1: and so when you have multiple murders, all with similarities,
[45:10] Speaker 1: you'd have to start thinking serial killer. In Texas during
[45:16] Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties was a hotbed for
[45:21] Speaker 1: serial killers. So how would Kennedy and his crew, if
[45:28] Speaker 1: you will, be connected to any of the area murders
[45:32] Speaker 1: of young people.
[45:34] Speaker 5: I've had numerous people tell us that, I mean, on
[45:37] Speaker 5: his side, I've heard more it's like more immigrant related.
[45:41] Speaker 5: I've heard numerous people that had work there that they
[45:44] Speaker 5: would not eat any of the meat because there's a
[45:47] Speaker 5: possibility that he may have gotten rid of a couple
[45:49] Speaker 5: of bodies through meat grinder. That's not the first time
[45:52] Speaker 5: I've heard that story. Obviously I didn't work there, but
[45:55] Speaker 5: I'm just going by some of the locals that had
[45:56] Speaker 5: worked there, had worked in the meat processing area.
[45:59] Speaker 8: They had just said there was.
[46:00] Speaker 5: Up to five people that had been placed in her
[46:02] Speaker 5: meat grinder at some point in time. It's a lot
[46:04] Speaker 5: of locals when it actually eat some of the meat,
[46:06] Speaker 5: the meat products.
[46:11] Speaker 1: Is he still alive now now.
[46:13] Speaker 8: He passed away several years ago.
[46:15] Speaker 1: Who runs the place now? Well?
[46:17] Speaker 5: That one I believe had burned down, So I'm not
[46:22] Speaker 5: sure if, like when you're reading this stuff, you see
[46:23] Speaker 5: just how many fires there are. It seems like everything
[46:27] Speaker 5: burns down within this a this time period. I get
[46:33] Speaker 5: it when you have a couple of house fires here
[46:34] Speaker 5: and there, But when you have the amount of house fires,
[46:38] Speaker 5: or for instance, when Shelley had her viewing and right
[46:42] Speaker 5: across the street the church, you know, caught on fire
[46:45] Speaker 5: from the funeral home, I don't know if you could
[46:47] Speaker 5: take it as almost like a warning, because I mean,
[46:49] Speaker 5: I know that was arson, you know, And you have
[46:51] Speaker 5: other key places that eventually burn down. There's like a
[46:55] Speaker 5: hardware store that had like burned down later. You've got
[46:59] Speaker 5: that a a handover which we still cannot get any
[47:02] Speaker 5: kind of you know, solid lead on exactly who lived
[47:05] Speaker 5: there at that time.
[47:06] Speaker 8: The murders.
[47:08] Speaker 5: There's evidence in that house fire those connected to the kids' murders,
[47:12] Speaker 5: as well as a couple of other cases that were
[47:14] Speaker 5: found within that home that burned down, And they also
[47:18] Speaker 5: said that there was a warning to PD and to
[47:21] Speaker 5: others to you know, to basically back off essentially.
[47:24] Speaker 1: And this is because of evidence.
[47:26] Speaker 8: You think, I think there was evidence in the home
[47:28] Speaker 8: or whoever is living there.
[47:29] Speaker 5: I also had evidence as well and decided, Okay, the
[47:32] Speaker 5: best way to get rid of evidence is obviously to
[47:34] Speaker 5: burn it.
[47:35] Speaker 1: It seems like if you're covering up a couple of murders,
[47:39] Speaker 1: up two young people, it seems like the extreme is
[47:43] Speaker 1: met here, like this thing like gets out of hand,
[47:47] Speaker 1: or is there a bigger thing at play here that
[47:50] Speaker 1: they're covering up besides just the murders.
[47:53] Speaker 5: I don't know, because I've been repeatedly told by some
[47:57] Speaker 5: people that were in SO and departments that have since retired,
[48:03] Speaker 5: that had told me repeatedly over time with just different people.
[48:06] Speaker 5: They're like, there's bigger things at play here than you
[48:10] Speaker 5: can imagine, and there's a reason why they have to
[48:13] Speaker 5: keep it suppressed because it's not apparently it's not just
[48:15] Speaker 5: about these two kids.
[48:16] Speaker 8: It supposedly goes I.
[48:18] Speaker 5: Guess a lot deeper and higher than just what these
[48:21] Speaker 5: two kids murders represents, and so we're constantly trying to
[48:25] Speaker 5: dig deeper in and thinking, Okay, well, how much more are.
[48:29] Speaker 8: We looking at?
[48:30] Speaker 5: I mean, how much deeper is it going to get?
[48:34] Speaker 5: Or how much higher? When it comes to politics? I mean,
[48:36] Speaker 5: I don't know, but I've been repeatedly told that that
[48:39] Speaker 5: there's a much bigger picture here than just.
[48:41] Speaker 8: These two kids.
[48:45] Speaker 1: As the investigation into Shelley and Vincent's murders seemed to
[48:50] Speaker 1: stall in the years after their deaths, with still no
[48:54] Speaker 1: real solid lead in the case or even any serious
[48:58] Speaker 1: persons of interest, the unthinkable happened in Weatherford again. So
[49:10] Speaker 1: did you live in Weatherford?
[49:11] Speaker 4: Yes? I lived at Weatherford for about twenty five years.
[49:14] Speaker 1: Really when did you get there?
[49:16] Speaker 7: In the mid nineteen seventies.
[49:20] Speaker 1: In July nineteen eighty seven, nineteen year old Wendy Robinson,
[49:25] Speaker 1: a classmate of Shelley in Vincent's is living her best life,
[49:29] Speaker 1: studying at Weatherford Junior College in hopes of becoming a teacher,
[49:34] Speaker 1: spending her summers in Weatherford with friends, playing tennis and
[49:38] Speaker 1: hanging out at what locals called the Wall, a popular
[49:42] Speaker 1: spot in town along the backside of Lake Weatherford, where
[49:46] Speaker 1: teens would go to drink, hook up, sunbathe, and swim. Notably,
[49:52] Speaker 1: Wendy bears a striking resemblance to Shelley. Long flowing, thick
[49:57] Speaker 1: brunette hair, round face, soft, gentle eyes, prominent lips, and also,
[50:04] Speaker 1: as Shelley's autopsy noted quote, fully developed. As if older
[50:11] Speaker 1: than her years.
[50:13] Speaker 7: She had just finished her first year of Weatherford College.
[50:18] Speaker 7: She was a very pretty girl. She was about one
[50:21] Speaker 7: hundred and twenty pounds, about five foot four. She had
[50:24] Speaker 7: been active in the tennis team in high school. I
[50:28] Speaker 7: don't think she played in college. But she was personable,
[50:32] Speaker 7: very attractive, young gal.
[50:35] Speaker 1: And so you would have known about the Shelley Vincent murder.
[50:40] Speaker 7: Yes, that was a big deal as far as nothing
[50:42] Speaker 7: like that had happened to Wetherford before.
[50:45] Speaker 1: And it must have shocked everybody.
[50:46] Speaker 4: Oh it was, it was so senseless.
[50:49] Speaker 1: Patricia Springer started her journalism career over forty five years
[50:54] Speaker 1: ago in Weatherford as a beat reporter for the local
[50:58] Speaker 1: radio station, which she and her then husband owned. Patricia
[51:03] Speaker 1: has written books and appeared on television. She has been
[51:07] Speaker 1: reporting on Wendy Robinson since the summer of nineteen eighty seven.
[51:13] Speaker 1: She has a mass every known document from Wendy's case.
[51:19] Speaker 1: Wendy Robinson, how do you lock onto that?
[51:22] Speaker 7: Because I knew the family pretty well. Linda, Wendy's mother,
[51:26] Speaker 7: and I were tennis partners at a women's tennis league,
[51:29] Speaker 7: and so I was pretty close with Linda.
[51:31] Speaker 4: I knew Jim pretty well. And when Wendy went missing.
[51:35] Speaker 7: Then I contacted them, of course, and just followed along
[51:40] Speaker 7: the story what happens. Wendy had gone to Lake Weatherford
[51:45] Speaker 7: to a place called the Wall, and that's where kids
[51:48] Speaker 7: wit and sunbathed, and that was July eighth of nineteen
[51:52] Speaker 7: eighty seven. She went down there to sunbathe. She was alone,
[51:56] Speaker 7: and she didn't come home, and so they Jim to
[52:01] Speaker 7: her dad, called the police and reported her missing. I mean,
[52:06] Speaker 7: they couldn't imagine where she was. They called all of
[52:09] Speaker 7: her friends, anything to try to find her, and no
[52:12] Speaker 7: one in Seni her. She had plans with a friend
[52:15] Speaker 7: that night and she didn't show up. The friend called
[52:18] Speaker 7: her house, and no one in sen her. So it
[52:22] Speaker 7: was just a mystery of where she had gone.
[52:24] Speaker 1: As Wendy Robinson turns up missing, sparking new concerns in
[52:29] Speaker 1: Parker County, the Weatherford Police Department seems to catch a
[52:34] Speaker 1: break in Shelley in Vincent's case. As it turned out,
[52:39] Speaker 1: about a month after Shelley and Vincent's murders, sadistic serial
[52:44] Speaker 1: killer Oddist Tool was arrested. Toole also committed many arsons
[52:52] Speaker 1: as a way to misdirect investigators and cover up his crimes.
[52:58] Speaker 1: He had also teamed up with Henry Lee Lucas, another
[53:02] Speaker 1: barbaric serial murderer who frequently prowled around Texas in search
[53:08] Speaker 1: of victims. Between them, they had confessed to murdering over
[53:15] Speaker 1: one hundred victims. One of those confessions Tool made was
[53:19] Speaker 1: for the abduction and murder of Adam Walsh, America's most
[53:24] Speaker 1: wanted host, John Walsh's six year old son, who Tool
[53:29] Speaker 1: says he decapitated in the years after Shelley and Vincent
[53:34] Speaker 1: were murdered. Out of Nowhere, Tool steps forward and claims
[53:39] Speaker 1: to have committed the murders on Piss Hill that night.
[53:44] Speaker 1: It could make sense based on the locations. Tool and
[53:48] Speaker 1: Lucas were known to have prayed on victims, so the
[53:57] Speaker 1: Weatherford PD sent a detective to Jacksonville, Florida, where Oddist
[54:02] Speaker 1: Tool was being held on separate charges to interview him
[54:07] Speaker 1: about the murders of Shelley and Vincent. Please check out
[54:16] Speaker 1: my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with m William Phelps,
[54:20] Speaker 1: where I delve into a new missing person and cold
[54:23] Speaker 1: case murder each week on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts,
[54:28] Speaker 1: or wherever you get your favorite shows. Coming up. In
[54:34] Speaker 1: the next episode of Paper Ghosts.
[54:38] Speaker 7: There is a man that worked on that ranch that
[54:40] Speaker 7: found her Bobby laying there. He had gone to enter
[54:45] Speaker 7: the ranch and that's when he discovered her. It was
[54:48] Speaker 7: in the middle of nowhere, there were no houses around
[54:50] Speaker 7: or anything.
[54:52] Speaker 5: They were classmates, and I know that with hers. I
[54:57] Speaker 5: know that her seat was pushed all her back in
[54:59] Speaker 5: her and it sounded as though there isn't a lot
[55:05] Speaker 5: of evidence in her vehicle either.
[55:09] Speaker 7: Her father had confessed to her that he it was
[55:12] Speaker 7: part of the murderer. And then that's when they went back,
[55:17] Speaker 7: and so all of a sudden he came to the forefront.
[55:26] Speaker 1: Paper Ghost Season five is written and executive produced by
[55:30] Speaker 1: me and William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia Executive producer
[55:36] Speaker 1: Catherine Law, Production by toc Boom Productions, Audio mastering and
[55:42] Speaker 1: mixing by Brandon Dicker. The series theme number four four
[55:47] Speaker 1: to two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and
[55:51] Speaker 1: Tom Mooney.

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