# MAFS S20 Ep. 17: You Are Beyonce w/Clara from S12

An episode of [Tayne Talks: A Reality TV Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1522401890), 22 Aug 2026, 1 h 49 min.

Audio: https://pdst.fm/e/pscrb.fm/rss/p/audio3.redcircle.com/episodes/7fdd29b5-6d03-446f-a447-c350fbacc635/stream.mp3

Clara is back on the pod to share her thoughts on this episode as the disaster that is the Couples Retreat continues. With her insights from being on the show, Clara shares a theory she has about Mecca, her thoughts on Devin and I am not pleased about how Michelle and Cam choose to support their friends. You can find Clara on TikTok here and on Instagram here. Get bonus episodes on Patreon on documentaries, MAFS content and reality shows like Sister Wives and 90 Day Fiance. Different levels are available - a tier to listen to episodes ad-free ($3), a tier for bonus episodes ($5) and another to listen ad-free, bonus episodes and get regular episodes early ($10) Join the conversation in the Patreon Community Chat and on Instagram, Twitter, Bluesky and Threads - @taynetalks Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

## Transcript

[0:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Hello everybody.
[0:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Welcome to another episode of Tain Talks.
[0:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I am your host Tain here to talk to you about married at first sight season 20 episode 17 the guests continue to come in and this time I have Clara from season 12 coming to talk about this with me.
[0:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Hi, how are you?
[0:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm good.
[0:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: How are you?
[0:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I am doing well and like I told you before we started recording, I am glad that you are here for this episode because I know everyone knows I watched it like you know episode by episode and I just watched this episode 17 and I'm just I've said what the fuck so many times yeah
[0:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[0:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you know what?
[0:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm going to tell you right now.
[0:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm going to have some hot takes that people aren't going to like, oh, those are the best.
[0:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, I want to look at it from other points of view.
[1:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So that's great.
[1:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Guys, before we go in, again, patreon.com slash taint talks, you can get video over there.
[1:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can get ad free over there.
[1:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We're all in need deep in maps, but once maps is over next week, can you believe it?
[1:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We'll be back to the bonus episodes and back to documentaries and other stuff.
[1:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But even if you don't want to join, you can join for free and we are chatting over there about these crazy kids and the entertainment they're giving us this season.
[1:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, back to the episode.
[1:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Um, these, this couples retreat.
[1:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Would you want to be there, Clara?
[1:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I'm well, yes, this whole season I don't think I would have loved participating in for the fact that like I don't think that my relationship is your business as like a random person just because you're part of this experiment and people have been very loud and very
[1:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: don't love the like drama for the sake of drama as like a participant.
[2:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, clearly my season people needed to be held accountable for things, but I think this format in general I would have been like, whoa, there's a lot that's interesting and comfy.
[2:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I agree.
[2:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I know some of you think like I'm being too hard on Michelle and I'm not going to say I feel validated but it was like early early on when I gave her my ashes and I was like,
[2:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I did get a comment from a listener shot out keaks who was telling me like, I need to move on and I need to watch this season as a new season.
[2:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, this is a show for entertainment for drama, not real love, marriages and all of that fair.
[2:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Honestly fair, I'm not there yet.
[2:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm getting there.
[2:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But it's also difficult to watch, and it's just, you've been married for four weeks, like all of this getting in there, and that's what the producers want.
[2:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But then again, Cam just put out a video because that's the other thing we're going to talk about where everyone's on social media and talking about everything, and it's kind of annoying to me.
[3:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But Cam says, you guys think the producers are telling us what to do, but they're not.
[3:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That this is real.
[3:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We are saying what we want to say.
[3:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The conversations are real.
[3:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They come from us.
[3:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We're the ones having the conversations.
[3:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it's tough because we all think it's the producers.
[3:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm sure the questions come from the producers and stuff.
[3:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But he's saying that it came from them.
[3:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So what do I do with that information, guys?
[3:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know?
[3:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I would be shocked if those games at the couples retreat didn't come from production, because yes, they're saying the words that they're saying, but like producers are required to ask specific questions and like at least for our season it was like you aren't talking about finances today.
[3:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You are leaving this room until you talk about finances like so I'm saying whatever in one about finances, but I don't have a say in what we're talking about all those dates were from producers all of those games were from producers and like I would be really surprised if camera and sat around with like.
[4:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: pen and paper, you know, X, Y, Z question, throw it in the bowl.
[4:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just, yeah, that would shock me.
[4:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[4:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[4:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So maybe they mean the, I remember he said Michelle is going to bring the salt and butter and he was going to bring the popcorn.
[4:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So maybe all the other questions and commentary and stuff at the dinner party.
[4:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes.
[4:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[4:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[4:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: prompted, and they just prompted.
[4:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes.
[4:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[4:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think the scenes are set by production and then whatever they say within that is their own.
[4:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's awesome.
[4:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[4:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay.
[4:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: All right.
[4:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We're picking back up where it was seen like a breakup with Tori and Felipe and Felipe selling the boys that she may have just broken up with him and finally the girls check up on Tori.
[4:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's what forever.
[5:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Where they told don't go in, let her sit in her feelings because that seems strange.
[5:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like even They seemed to have a friendship.
[5:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It just felt like one person would have checked up on her.
[5:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I don't know Yeah, I was wondering that when the girls went in the room in in the first place I and they were like, oh, everyone's here except for Tory.
[5:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was like, are we gonna have somebody like pop their head in?
[5:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Did producers say hey she needs 10 like
[5:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: just go on without her like I was definitely curious.
[5:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was glad they finally checked in on her but yeah you're right it took a very long time.
[5:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, Tory keeps saying like you know when the girls came in she's like she's stupid and she's asking them what they think and not that he matters, but I suddenly at this moment remembered that in the beginning she said she didn't mind a party boy that she was fine if they gave her a party boy or a bad boy or something to that effect and you know the thing with wanting that or asking you know getting what you asked for is it comes with this you know they're not going to be responsible.
[5:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: with that.
[5:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So Marissa tells Tori that she is Beyonce.
[6:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She cannot be with another person who thinks that they are Beyonce.
[6:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I'm like, yes.
[6:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think that's like not terrible advice.
[6:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, I think like generally there's like somebody who shines a bit more in a relationship and
[6:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Bree is like the brightest light bulb in any room like she's just such a personality like she's so charismatic and like I think a lot of people were kind of confused on her dynamic with Vince because she's a bit more like chill and laid back and subdued and I have always I've said for five years six years like I said this point like he lets her shine and then I think a lot of people need that like yeah I think it's tough to have two people that are kind of competing to be the center of attention.
[6:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: in any given relationship.
[6:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So yeah, I was going to be nice.
[6:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, it's Marissa's language, but it's just basically her way of saying, like, you know, he got to let you shine.
[7:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, both of you can be competing for, you know, attention, because clearly Felipe likes attention, good or bad.
[7:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He just wants attention.
[7:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Correct.
[7:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[7:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Um, Felipe is still harping on about how his friends and family give him grace and, you know, he knows he's going to say stupid shit and he needs a partner that gives him grace.
[7:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is part of the problem.
[7:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: These are the things where even enabled all of this, like how about you grow up and don't say stupid shit.
[7:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let's start there.
[7:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's exactly it and there's zero accountability and it was like gaslighting 101 the way he was talking to her about being like, well, everybody else is fine with this like you need to get on board, basically like, hey, how about you're in a dull.
[7:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: like an adult like take responsibility for your actions and your words and like learn how to censor yourself and I didn't love that throughout the rest of the episode he's like oh I need to think before I answer this it was like making a mockery of the fact that she's requested this and said like I need this in this relationship but you have to.
[8:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, thank you before you speak and everybody else is like laughing and goating him like I was also kind of bothered that like the men apologize to Felipe for picking him over and over in the game.
[8:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And like the
[8:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: regardless of Tories emotions and they like don't apologize to Tories about it.
[8:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They also picked up quite a bit and don't apologize Kate when we're devoured about it.
[8:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it's like a weird dynamic where everyone's like feeding into Fully Bay constantly because I think they think it's funny.
[8:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I don't, yeah, yeah, and also because maybe they apologize also because they see the consequences with Philippe's relationship with Devon and Caitlyn, Caitlyn just kind of was like, it's funny.
[8:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's a game.
[8:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let's move on.
[8:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And they didn't make like a stink about it.
[8:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then, you know, they did it with that.
[8:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I agree with you.
[8:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And part of the problem what I mean is, I'm a person who believes in calling out people because I believe in consequences.
[8:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Now, as I've got an older,
[9:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I have learned that you don't always have to say everything.
[9:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It does not come naturally to me, guys.
[9:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But I'm learning, like, hey, let people do what they want to do.
[9:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But the reason I believe in it is because people believe like, it's okay.
[9:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then they end up being, that's just me, that's just me.
[9:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's just who I am.
[9:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And this is what we're seeing.
[9:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: His family and friends are baby him and allowed him to have bad behavior.
[9:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And now he's just like, wait, what?
[9:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Someone's not accepting it.
[9:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's your problem, not mine.
[9:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[9:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: you you haven't seen 18 but and this is not really a spoiler but there's a scene where fully based with his mom and his friend and they are feeding into this narrative continuously it's like well we just know you're like that we know you don't mean any harm it's like yeah but yeah that doesn't be good okay and yeah also that just gives him license to say and do whatever he wants and be like well yeah get on board or get out I I hate it so much it yeah yeah not again
[9:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Uh, boy.
[9:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, and then he says that he's like I can do my best not to say stupid shit, but my whole life I haven't been able to so you know what I'm not going to try.
[10:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He didn't say that part.
[10:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm not saying that is not just like what yeah.
[10:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, um, he's take away an all of this is that well she cares more about what people think.
[10:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Mecca.
[10:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, guys.
[10:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Mecca is the one who actually says, well, no, it's more than that.
[10:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like it's basically she's thinking like he was voted for the things he was voted for or reflection of her and what she has to deal with and it's just not a good look.
[10:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he also says like, and that's when to your point, Devon and Noah were saying, they were not thinking about her feelings, you know, while they were doing so and they were pointing out all these things and they were jeopardizing
[10:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: his relationship and all I'm thinking is Mecca.
[10:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If only you applied this to your relationship, just a little bit of restraint.
[10:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I feel that a bit of a little past is like they're constantly giving each other advice that they're not taking themselves.
[10:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I'm always like, are you listening to yourself?
[11:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's all of that, which we'll get the dinner later.
[11:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, same, the same thing.
[11:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[11:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, so much, so much good stuff in this episode.
[11:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Katelyn says like he's gonna talk to who's gonna say that he should cook and I'm not even sure what she meant because she's telling Tori like you should let him cook or you should cook him But you know cook vibes all I don't know what anything Me, you said the spoon like are you saying ended?
[11:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Are you saying letting him suffer?
[11:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't know.
[11:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think they were I think that was her trying to be like, let's roast him.
[11:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know like let's okay Like tell him how it is like don't hold back like I think it was like you need to like lay into him a little bit.
[11:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That was my interpretation
[11:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, I don't know if I'm aging myself and Dr. Sean is a lot of things, but let's listen to him.
[11:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let's use our words, I don't know.
[11:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I have an interpret what they mean.
[11:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So Kayling goes to talk to Felipe says that she's irritated.
[11:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She's pissed at him, but she's willing to give him perspective because the way he has approached
[12:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Tory is insensitive and cake learning is like you should have drawn a boundary with the guys because Philippe is like when I was going to have done and that is such a good point like I feel like guys are usually more focused on being in good with their fellow guys and it's like they forget to speak their minds like it's more important to look cool and funny instead of just like standing up for your wife and saying like no I don't want to participate in this you know
[12:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, and it's, I mean, Sean hit the nail on the head with Adam a couple weeks ago.
[12:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like,
[12:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It is a sign of low emotional intelligence that they're incapable of drawing these boundaries, and they just constantly want to riff off each other, because my boyfriend and his friends would never like allow each other to disrespect her partners like that.
[12:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I know it's not like all men.
[12:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It is definitely this group.
[12:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's just, I'm curious to know if Caitlin wanted to talk to Felipe, or if producers told her to talk to Felipe.
[12:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: because that felt a little we just haven't seen Caitlyn be confrontational like that so far this season I feel like yeah so it was it was a little odd to me I don't think it was quite as toxic as Devon seems to think it was but I would I would be curious enough producers were like hey you should go sit down and talk to him
[13:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That is a good point because I feel like as much as we've seen them hang out a lot this season we haven't seen like the bonds or their friendships to know who is who like in other seasons we know this person's cool this group is this so we don't know what the dynamics are and especially with Caitling I think she had a confessional
[13:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And at the dinner party and I was like, oh my god, this is the first confessional which is not crying.
[13:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it was so weird.
[13:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She was giving like an actual confessional.
[13:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So now to see her like participating and talking about another couple.
[13:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It is kind of odd.
[13:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So that's a good, you know, point like was this natural or.
[13:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: was his producers.
[14:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So while they're speaking speaking of Sean, Sean slithers in.
[14:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's the best way I can put it.
[14:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He just shows up.
[14:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then Professor Sean, he does, um, his office hours as I call it, begin.
[14:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then he starts going like, where we, you have to protect, we, we have to think about that.
[14:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And once again, he's not saying the wrong thing.
[14:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's just nothing comes out of his mouth that sounds right to me and he just sounded so preachy that you're almost like And I almost expect they can't lean to be like do you mind if we just have this moment and go away But she didn't agree she was like that what he said and Felipe is not having it Felipe says I'm not going to be not honest Like am I compatible with a person that can't give me grace and I'm like shut the fuck up with this great thing Like we're no that's not where we are with this
[14:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, I think, um, yeah, Sean just loves to interject.
[14:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I, like, I hate when I have to agree with Sean, because he has got it right, but I find him so agree, just as a human being that I'm like, I just don't want to agree with you.
[15:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But yeah, I think to a lot of the problem with this couple's retreat is the amount of alcohol that was being consumed by everyone.
[15:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It looked like they were doing shots, right?
[15:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like there was a, I mean, I know, I remember from our Tados.
[15:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, it was at the one time where it was like, you can buy as much alcohol as you want and production will pay for it.
[15:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, before it was like, I mean, within reason, right if you're going to dinner like, yeah, be cautious of it, but nobody's driving, right?
[15:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They want the drama.
[15:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it was like, hey, if you guys want three handles of Tados, go to the film.
[15:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think what Philippe looks like he's strung out 99% of the time, his entire show anyway, like I think he's a poor legitimately on substances, but I think this, he's very drunk, and when he's drunk, he's much more defensive, because you see him the next morning, and he's clearly like, slept or not, slept well on it.
[16:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And he, like, has been a different perspective, but I think when he's intoxicated, he just is really, really hard-headed with no
[16:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And when you say like he slept on it, I think that's where I struggle with Felipe, when he turns around, I don't know if genuinely have you or are you saying it to keep the peace and move on.
[16:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, maybe I never know.
[16:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it could be like he realized in the middle of the night, oh my god, I'm going to look terrible on TV.
[16:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I have to get it together, who knows?
[16:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think they'll do see the switch with him off.
[16:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I mean, he is falling back and forth of the emotional tennis court constantly, all season.
[16:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, it was pretty, like, on par for him.
[16:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[16:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, we continue to see that again.
[16:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, you haven't seen it.
[16:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I won't get into it.
[16:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He keeps it up all the way through.
[16:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh my god.
[16:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, his double down is crazy to me because he goes on to say like the things he said in the past are not crazy.
[16:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[17:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is why struggle.
[17:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You've apologized.
[17:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You've said you weren't considering now you're saying that the things that you said are not crazy.
[17:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Nicky and Sean are together at this moment and they hear Caitlyn yelling and he says the thing with Caitlyn is that she gets defensive when she comes at you.
[17:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'm like, okay, so fully, well, they move on to, sorry, were you trying to say something?
[17:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, no, I'm just, I hate Devon.
[17:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I hate Devon.
[17:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I am not a team Devon.
[17:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So, um, aside there, Nicky's like, oh, I think she's defending Tori.
[17:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He's like, I don't care.
[17:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She's toxic.
[17:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I was like, all right, pipe down, but he like, whatever.
[17:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, he's intense is where I'm at right now, but he uses a lot of buzzwords.
[17:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he feels like this batch toxic.
[17:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What's his buzzword?
[17:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We've all done from a CEO and here you understand.
[17:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You've got we got one mentioned, but now it's like toxic toxic toxic toxic toxic toxic.
[18:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, he says that he's been trying to work through things.
[18:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's been desiring her to try more and Nicky was like, you know, for me, I just made a decision.
[18:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I leaned into it and it worked and Devon was, it feels like he wants to say more.
[18:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He just keeps looking around like leaning, I'm like, what are you going to say that you're afraid to say with anyone around?
[18:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, just say whatever it is, say it with your chest.
[18:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But he says that now he's in his head after talking to everyone and, you know, that game really got into his head.
[18:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like,
[18:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I just, Devon is going to be someone who gets triggered easily by a bottom things and I'm not saying Caitlyn is insane or Caitlyn doesn't have her things, but I think he doesn't know how to regulate.
[18:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: overreact because he could always walk away.
[18:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, I think he has legitimate anger issues.
[18:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think he has quite a bit of jealousy issues that we see later.
[19:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He clearly struggles maintaining boundaries set by other people.
[19:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We've seen that all season.
[19:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I, again, I'm not a fan.
[19:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I am like, it blows my mind when I go online and I see everyone being like, he deserves so much better and she's the worst person.
[19:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She's such a villain and her and Courtney can write off and say, I'm like, are we watching the same show?
[19:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm not saying Caitlyn's thing.
[19:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She clearly has her stuff, but the fact that nobody is picking up on his
[19:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think it's because of how he was set up.
[19:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So he in the beginning, he was set up and then they were telling us his committed, Philippe is like, he's the most committed, he's all that.
[19:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then to for me, the first glimpse, at first I was like, okay, she's giving him nothing, so he really wants something.
[19:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But the first glimpse from me was like, Courtney's a lot of things, but she says she doesn't want to talk about it.
[19:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Look at me, look at me.
[19:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What do you mean?
[19:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, that's a lot.
[19:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then when they got home and Caitlin was like, oh, I don't want to talk and he's like, no, give me a hug, do this and I'm like,
[20:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: a lot.
[20:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I think the setup is confusing people and the fact that Caitlyn is also not, you know, the most open, I guess, so people together, just making people like don't like people with avoidant detachment styles and she is very clearly avoidant and that has never sat well with audiences like across any season.
[20:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I feel like people just don't.
[20:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: tend to empathize with those people in this experiment, which like is understandable, but yeah, his, I mean, throughout the season, his refusal to give people a space at anybody, like it's, we have to have this conversation right now, and it's always quite aggressive.
[20:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, yeah.
[20:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I'm going back to Caitlyn.
[20:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, I am one of them, like, slow burn, all that stuff, like just don't sign up for the show.
[20:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you know those things matter to you, like, yeah, it just doesn't work.
[20:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It doesn't work.
[21:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: On here.
[21:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So the whiplash continues for me again because we get a selfie cam from Caitlyn.
[21:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think it was like midnight to am or something like that.
[21:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she's all like, oh, she made advances to his devan.
[21:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He hopped into the shower and anytime they approach physical intimacy, he does this.
[21:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like he gets into the shower or like he's trying to avoid something.
[21:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I said this last episode of Clara.
[21:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm lost with these two.
[21:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I just, I don't understand what is happening and I drew parallels between her and Nikki because I was saying like we had the group therapy.
[21:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was disappointed in the experts because Nikki looked very uncomfortable when Sean was like, oh, I went abat.
[21:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We should massage his head about it at a time.
[21:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'm like, this is, you know, I don't like it.
[21:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She doesn't want to.
[21:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It seems like passive coercion.
[21:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Then the next thing I saw that they had a sexual experience and I'm like, oh, I sound stupid.
[21:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't know what's going on and now Caitlin was like I'm uncomfortable.
[21:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I want to go slow You don't have to have sex before a decision day now.
[22:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She's like I'm ready I want to do this again, which is her right and I don't know if it's the story telling it's just hard for me as a viewer because I'm like I want to think something I want to say something but it looks like I'm on different pages
[22:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: um, something that's been very interesting to watch.
[22:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And if you're somebody who watches while playing on your phone, you maybe wouldn't pick up on this, their body language is always very close.
[22:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They are always seated and next to each other, almost on top of each other.
[22:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: His hand is always on high.
[22:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Her hand is on high.
[22:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They are very physically affectionate.
[22:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Almost always,
[22:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: meet up with Dr. Lisa where she was like, are you attracted to him?
[22:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, every since I moment, we see them as a unit, anytime like group sessions or whatever, and you do see her, come up to him and squeeze his shoulder and like rub his back.
[22:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so to hear that he constantly is like, she's giving me nothing and there's no physical affection in this, I'm always like,
[23:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But what my eyes are telling me doesn't match what Devon is saying about the level of physicality there and like him saying they hadn't kissed since the honeymoon.
[23:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was like, that was my mind because of, it looks like they are so into each other.
[23:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I don't know.
[23:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So when she said that I was like,
[23:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Interesting.
[23:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I, I wonder, and this is me playing devil's advocate because again, I feel bad that she seems to be getting sort of a villain edit.
[23:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I wonder if he's not nearly as into her as he is claiming to have acts like and he's looking for an out and his been kind of looking for an out the whole time and so he wants this physicality as a thing he can continue to harp on.
[23:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So when she does try to initiate something he like pretends he doesn't know what's going on and then he leaves the room.
[24:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that's probably
[24:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, okay, we're going to disagree here.
[24:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay.
[24:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, completely opposite for me because absolutely agree.
[24:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Every dinner party.
[24:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She's leaning into him.
[24:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They're on any other.
[24:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But this is why I say it's whiplash and I don't know if it's a story telling.
[24:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Then she tells us, like that was a shock to me when she said, I pulled back on the physical intimacy since Mexico.
[24:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was like, oh,
[24:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What?
[24:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That was surprising to me.
[24:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then he tells us all the time and she doesn't disagree like off camera.
[24:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She doesn't want to be with.
[24:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She leaves the house and doesn't text him and tells him.
[24:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She's like, oh, that's stuff I have to remember.
[24:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then they have to negotiate about her putting her leg on him for physical intimacy.
[24:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She puts pillows in between them.
[24:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I'm just
[24:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: How do we go from that, at that point, the ball is in your court if you want the green light.
[24:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And can I just say when they showed the flashbacks over advances, did not indicate to me that she was DTF Clara.
[25:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I, for me, Sam.
[25:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So yeah, I think it's, it's confusing with these two because like I said, like, when you watch them, it's like, they're always, they're always so close.
[25:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then
[25:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: the not kissing since Mexico.
[25:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I did I did see on social media that she said that she was getting up and going to 530 a.m. workout classes every day because of the coming and work schedule.
[25:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[25:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And to be perfectly honest, if I were getting up at 430 in the morning or if my partner was getting up at 430 in the morning every single day, I don't know that I would need you to tell me goodbye when I left the house, but like, yeah, if that's what he's expressed than, you know, whatever.
[25:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[25:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I can see where in the beginning I would have been like, oh, I'm not
[25:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That is neither here or the I guess at this point.
[25:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, yeah, her I think if To me if they really have not kissed in Smaxaco and he knows that she is never physically affectionate with him I do think her little like touchy-feely things should give him a little bit of an indication that like Hey, maybe she's feeling more comfortable physically like if we're truly going from zero to a hundred here Yeah, she's at least doing something
[26:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I can see where that would be confusing.
[26:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't really understand why it needed to be a fight for them to discuss it.
[26:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I feel like they could have just been like, hey, I'm not just trying.
[26:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Hey, I didn't realize that.
[26:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, cool.
[26:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now you know.
[26:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Let's get it on.
[26:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I mean, I was talking about this we Anthony too and I'm like there is a block because we're gonna get down to it and Devon is a lot of things, but he's not wrong.
[26:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The way her eyes shown bright with Mecca that there is something there And I feel like there is a block because I said it were adults when you're attracted to someone we don't need to talk it to death like just
[26:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Do the damn thing and do whatever needs to be done.
[27:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I understand from his point like it's not like he's going to jump her or do anything.
[27:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He has to go on her own pace.
[27:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I again, I don't understand not using your words.
[27:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, he touched.
[27:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And if that's no different from leaning against him during dinner.
[27:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Right.
[27:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So if she just says, you know what, Devon, I think I'm ready.
[27:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think tonight like he's your words.
[27:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like I don't know, you know, especially because of the situation they're in, you know, but
[27:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, only other thing would be that like I think when he is sort of talking at her to death and like they are in this constant round about conversation for me and this is me projecting right like my own feelings I wouldn't feel comfortable.
[27:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: To have sex with somebody that I feel like it's constantly making me feel like I'm the bad guy and that like everything I say and do is wrong and every time we get in a group setting it feels like I'm being shit on like, which needs to be the case here like I think yeah she's a slow bar and but is he giving her the space to feel safe.
[28:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: within this relationship and feel more comfortable to then explore that.
[28:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think I think there's a bit of a cycle here where we're just like going around and Yeah, they are because then I agree and then she was like well, I feel comfortable enough And I shared things with him that only three people in my life know so I'm thinking that is progress like I get them all the props like, you know for him to even feel safe and then he reacted well
[28:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Then it comes back to I'm not safe again, but then I feel safe.
[28:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I do want to have it's a lot of whiplash and you never for something like this to me that is sensitive.
[28:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You don't want to speculate or say all the things, but it's just like I don't know as a viewer, what do I think like what you know where does it go so.
[28:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's where they are.
[28:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Um, okay.
[28:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We might have peacock money guys, but still have the couples retreat.
[28:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They have to make their own food for years.
[28:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I've been saying get this people is what is called blue apron whatever is called get the hearing therapy.
[28:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, I look for get the service or something, but no, they're still cooking their own food and I think Devon is the.
[29:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: designated chef this time.
[29:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Then we find out that Katelyn and Devon were bickering all night about him missing the cues like Clara said and this leads to Cameron saying like he's hoping optimism went down after some conversations and Michelle says Mecca was saying not nice things and shares that a little bit Katelyn but does not go into detail this is my question to you.
[29:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It is fine.
[29:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't mind that Cameron told Michelle, that's his wife, that's what happens, you know, pillow time, it was the show, it's holding things like that.
[29:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Should Belle not be the first to know.
[29:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I did not like that Michelle and Cameron or whoever, I think Cameron was uncomfortable, because I go, I'm gonna leave, shared,
[29:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I know it wasn't the whole thing, but any parts of it with Caitlyn.
[29:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I didn't like that part.
[29:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, and I didn't love Cameron's loose-lips singships.
[29:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's like, sir, you started this train.
[30:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, you told Michelle who, I think,
[30:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think everybody can tell Michelle and Cameron love to gossip, right, and they seem to have a bit of like a complex about being the best couple here, which it feels I don't know that it was Michelle's intention to
[30:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: cause drama amongst the other couples, like, in her mind, but I do think that, like, subconsciously, I saw somebody say that it feels like they're playing a game where it's like, they win more for every couple.
[30:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They knock out a whole hungaway.
[30:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Kind of feels like what's happening here.
[30:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And Max was saying, like,
[30:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Not my circus not my monkeys like if it were me with that information I wouldn't want to get involved and but you just hit the nail on the head like Bell should have been the first one to know because there's nothing worse than finding out that every single person A group has been talking about you and like know something about you that you don't know and at that point you have to tell her right like I would want
[31:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: my friends to know, but you're absolutely right that it should have gone to her first.
[31:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[31:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm not even speaking about the intent because I don't know what the intent is, but if your goal was like, oh, you wanted to tell her as a friend, you should just go to her.
[31:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It shouldn't have been.
[31:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There was something Iki about the conversation between the three of them, just like,
[31:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It was bad.
[31:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh no, I wish I didn't know like what did he say?
[31:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let me know, but it's about Belle and you know what it is.
[31:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You should just shut it down and be like, no, I have to talk to Belle first, but no, no, it's not my police to say.
[31:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So that's uh, my thoughts on that.
[31:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But um, I'm going to take a break here and I'll be back to continue the other couples.
[31:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: All right, so it's the morning after and I guess everyone has a date, but things are still awkward with Tory and Philippe and we don't see Bill Jolie and Mecca with the rest of them in the morning, but it looks like they went straight to their date.
[31:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She does tell him that she shared about his comment at the dinner table and he does say that she's always defending him, but he feels like he's not deserving because he's always messing up, but he's grateful for the grace that she has given.
[32:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I don't know if that was clipped from prior, another key point and yeah, and then we came back to I'm grateful for the grace because that is their story that she's Volturning for him and he's just embarrassed.
[32:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I have a thought on this.
[32:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay.
[32:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Sit with me for a minute.
[32:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm sitting.
[32:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm sat.
[32:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, I think her defending him is the biggest gift to him and I think
[32:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: that I have thought this for a couple of weeks that like every time she like stands 10 toes down when he's wrong, he like pulls back a little, but you see later in the episode and hopefully I'm not like jumping too far ahead, but when they ask about like, oh, who do you think you should have been paired with or whatever, he says two people, Michelle and Katelyn, the two people who have called him out on things, public.
[33:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: women who tell him, know you fucked up, that's not okay.
[33:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think he thinks Bell's Dormat, and he's not in pain.
[33:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's my theory.
[33:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, I haven't thought about that.
[33:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was still stuck on, you know, I just, you know, I got messages, I got stuff and people were just saying like, Bell is not his physical type.
[33:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He just does.
[33:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think that first date white women.
[33:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I know.
[33:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think like, I feel like the white women thing we've kind of known because his grandma made a comment at the wedding of that guy.
[33:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I thought it was his grandma that was like, oh, we've had to make sure he doesn't just like,
[33:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, yes, yes, we sounded like code for he usually dates white women and we don't love that or like outside of things and yeah, I've had that in my head and then of course Adam calls him out in the like other episode like straight up do you like white women and his ex is why that we've seen on to talk.
[34:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, yeah, I remember his dad asking Bill, what did you put did you say you wanted a black man you wanted to and I was like that was weird, but you know, he putting that all together.
[34:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, no.
[34:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, so I'm thinking about what you said.
[34:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm sitting and I'm sitting with it.
[34:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, that might be a point because we know that Mecca processes things differently and he's used to being admonished, like just being folded and that may be what's familiar.
[34:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And sometimes you gravitate to what's familiar and not necessarily what's right for you.
[34:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yep.
[34:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I mean,
[34:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know how much you've seen of his relationship with his father and the videos on the internet and like, yes, it's clear that he has a lot of stuff that needs to be worked through.
[35:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I mean, yeah, we don't have to go into speculation or anything like that.
[35:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I think you're absolutely right that it's that's what's familiar and that's how he's used to being
[35:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: by being, yeah, I've managed and put down, and I think he's drawn to that.
[35:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think that he might see eventually constantly standing up for him as a weakness of hers.
[35:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And one more thing to add to that, while Adam was doing his 60 minutes on Mecca, when he said, what is the thing that you are not attracted to and he's like, is it her way of thinking?
[35:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he said, yes, that might be one of the things
[35:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So why we need Kevin at the reunion?
[35:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, sure.
[35:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's going to be a three-year-old.
[35:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: No, it hasn't been all our hosting it, unfortunately.
[36:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, Kevin did a farewell end of an era of video that he's out.
[36:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They got him out too.
[36:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: OK, well, I mean, this is why I'm happy to have you on here.
[36:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's all I've never thought about, but we love that.
[36:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You guys let me know what you think.
[36:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let me know if you agree.
[36:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let me know if you have other thoughts on that, but I think we might be onto something here.
[36:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Um, he does read a rate that more often than not this is mega.
[36:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He is the problem and the song at the background because as we always joke and I always tell you guys if you are not paying attention, the lyrics would tell you what's going on.
[36:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The song says why hate myself or is it love that keeps cool being on so, you know, it's on your side.
[36:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Catch it over there.
[36:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Tori and Philippe, but he goes to talk to her, says he thinks he understands and he should have shut down the narrative.
[36:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Not his original thought, it is what Caitlyn told him, if you remember, and she says that, you know, he doesn't consider her feelings, he doesn't occur to him, and that's what bugs her.
[36:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, he says he's going to make space for her, and then he says, the deven thing.
[37:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I know you want me to see you to hear you to understand,
[37:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Who gave them this line?
[37:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, is, do they go to the same therapist?
[37:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, where is it from?
[37:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Am I missing something?
[37:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, let us change.
[37:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'll be my guest.
[37:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The case you didn't hear, she's like production.
[37:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So probably because this is kind of what happens.
[37:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If production wants you to say something, they're not going to tell you to say it.
[37:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They're going to ask you a question.
[37:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Do you feel blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[37:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so producers have asked bothfully by Anne Devin.
[37:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Do you feel whatever that line was?
[37:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They've both been asked that question.
[37:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Now those words are in their head.
[37:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And now it's their idea to say them.
[37:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[37:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, and we're getting a lot of repetition this season.
[37:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: A lot of people were just saying the same things over and over again.
[37:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, so Felipe says that he has PTSD of partners being ashamed of him and I may be a terrible person, guys.
[38:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't know that I believe that.
[38:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was gonna ask you what you thought about that.
[38:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't think he knows what PTSD is and I think it's quite frankly a little insulting to people with PTSD to be like,
[38:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, well, you know, people don't like me because I'm a bad partner and it's like also I'm sorry, but if we bet you cheated on your girlfriend and forgot and then kept dating her for three years like I don't yeah, I think that he just is incapable of taking responsibility for his actions and has to blame somebody else say anybody else for everything.
[38:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Also, he said that people accept him for who he was.
[38:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I know he said friends and family, but if you've had people that've been ashamed of you, it's not enough for you to think, huh, do I need to tweak something in the way that I behave?
[38:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think that he craves toxic relationships.
[39:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Quite frankly, it's sort of not similar to Maca, but I think that he is probably somebody who thrives off of the drama and the conflict.
[39:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And because he keeps saying, like, I need to find somebody who's just okay with this.
[39:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it's like, in your relationship with someone who is okay with you constantly disrespecting them is going to be a toxic relationship.
[39:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And Tori's not about that.
[39:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: My Philippe diagnosis goes back to my day one thought of him from watching the previews.
[39:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He is still a baby in his heavy quote unquote hot years.
[39:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He is not lived his full life as a hot person and he just feels hot early.
[39:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Who is my favorite man as part?
[39:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Harry quote himself.
[39:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He says, yeah, and the people that come to the restaurant and hit on him.
[39:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's still in his big ears.
[39:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He feels like he is retiring too early and the world needs to enjoy his hotness.
[39:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He needs to enjoy his hotness.
[40:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He is not fully like blossomed into life as a hot guy.
[40:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Cause you remember he made comments?
[40:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Who was he telling?
[40:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Was he Adam or camera like,
[40:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Have you been hot your whole life?
[40:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I haven't been hot.
[40:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I had to lean on my personality and he's just like I'm gonna retire now to just one person No, that to me is the access of everything that he's moving is he just spent and now he's going to have
[40:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: quote unquote peacock mass fame like his DMs are gonna be flooded.
[40:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I do am I ready to shut that down?
[40:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know that I would agree that his DMs will be flooded just on personal experience like yeah, there's gonna be people out there, but it's it'll be fewer and farther between and people think because he does not look good and I think any woman who watches the show and then it's like that's the one for me.
[40:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's what it would be rare especially for a man.
[40:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's usually what happens.
[40:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You think look at the guy from last season Come on from our season.
[40:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, I didn't watch us even but from ours.
[41:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, yeah, they're yeah I mean Chrissy's DMs were getting flooded, which Chris was an egregious one, but like I don't think Jake's DMs were getting flooded like and even with Hayley getting a villain at it I people
[41:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you're a weirdo, I don't know.
[41:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, you'll attract other weirdos.
[41:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was like, yeah, but it was lifetime.
[41:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, I feel like this season is different.
[41:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like everyone's just like 94%.
[41:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[41:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And they're getting a lot of it.
[41:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then, I don't know where in a different era now, like I always say, how's the villains is a show?
[41:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, even if you're a villain, and so she's been the space for you.
[41:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then men, he's a man.
[41:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, they will always have someone like, I thought,
[41:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Josh last season like you can do the best and then broke up his wife the EDM.
[41:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't know if you heard about it.
[41:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The burning man guy is, you know, maybe now he has a new girlfriend like, even by the reunion.
[41:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He had a new girl.
[41:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There are people.
[41:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's, you're, I mean, never, a deterrent, you know, for them.
[41:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, so he thinks, you know, the world.
[41:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So yeah, so they have that she says like they should commit to being each other's safe space They cuddle.
[42:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She says it's gonna take a while to trust and she likes him But she also thinks that they're compatible and here is where I'm gonna ask you how do you think I mean You've seen 18, but how do you think it's gonna end for these people in decision day?
[42:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What are they gonna say?
[42:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: these two
[42:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Cause I've seen I've seen 18 and 18 shows the first half of their decision day.
[42:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So if you haven't seen that, I don't want to, okay, okay, I will say, I really, really, really, really, really wanted Tory to stand on that breakup from the night before.
[42:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I want her to be done.
[42:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I want.
[42:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I wanted her because she is such like Tory has been one of my favorite people to watch the season because she is so sure of herself.
[42:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She is a strong woman.
[43:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She does not let his insecure.
[43:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, like so many women.
[43:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: they let their partners in securities be a reflection of them and she does not do that.
[43:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She knows who she is.
[43:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And just to love watching how strong she is and how she conducts herself all season.
[43:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then in this moment, this was the first time I was disappointed and hurt where I was like, oh, I wanted you to be done, which don't give me wrong.
[43:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I fully understand her being like, let's just keep trying.
[43:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We've committed to this, you know, like, let's just see it three.
[43:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We've got a week left, whatever it is.
[43:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But I wanted her to choose herself and walk away.
[43:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she didn't do that, and I was like, oh, my girl, I want more for you.
[43:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, I mean, the reason I'm asking what they were saying decision day is like, a little part of me feels like Tory is checked out and already knows what she's going to say.
[43:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But then every confessional, she says things like what she just said right now, where it's like, I like him, I think we're compatible.
[44:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We can make it work.
[44:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But then when I watch it, it just looks like a woman who's just like,
[44:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I have one more week left and I'm done with this.
[44:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[44:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: My prediction because you don't see in 18, the essence of a nose.
[44:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[44:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[44:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But my prediction will be shockingly that he will say yes, and she will say no.
[44:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Thank you.
[44:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Thank you.
[44:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think he knows that she's going to say no.
[44:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that's why he says yes.
[44:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because that way makes.
[44:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Looks like he puts it on her.
[44:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[44:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[44:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: To make that call.
[44:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, um, I'll take another break and I will be right back.
[44:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Nikki and Sean, they're face timing because, you know, Sean had to go to his mom's birthday party.
[44:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I remember Paul telling them that part of their love language is community and whatever and Sean wanting to talk to her mom.
[44:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I just wondered why couldn't she go to the party?
[44:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Is it too soon?
[45:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: or what is it like I wish they talked about it like I'm not sure maybe she wasn't comfortable but at least tell us something because you can't feed us they want community we need to talk to your mom on Tuesday at 907 p.m. and then now you're going for a big birthday and she's not there like it's kind of a producer thing where they were like hey like you're supposed to be at this
[45:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: we need at least one of you there.
[45:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know, who knows.
[45:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, for our couples retreat, I think I missed the whole first.
[45:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think we missed the whole first day because I was flying and we had to drive in the next morning.
[45:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I can't wait, remember what happened, but I know it was like, this isn't, this is a non-negotiable, you have to be there thing.
[45:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[45:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Rancid with his mother's, what was it 75th birthday?
[45:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Is that what, no?
[45:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: No, um, 72, yeah, 72 was like an odd number 72.
[45:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[45:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Kind of a weird thing to be like, oh, I have to fly to work for my mother's 72nd birthday.
[46:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's like, oh, okay, whatever.
[46:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know.
[46:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't I think when they faced time to look like it was an actual party because she was like, yeah, I look so beautiful.
[46:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I thought it was just being with her, but it looks like it was a party.
[46:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, which is what I had assumed when he left it.
[46:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Just so it was like,
[46:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know, does she have big parties over here?
[46:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Is she in poor health and like, I don't know.
[46:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, it was odd, but I wouldn't be surprised if production had been like, please have one of you in attendance.
[46:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[46:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I know it's a completely new crew or producers or something, whatever it is.
[46:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's amazing.
[46:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, um, when Kevin did his video or whoever was talking, they said they cleared out a whole bunch of people, um, that's working on the show for a while and stuff.
[46:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like a whole thing.
[46:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But, um, last season, we had a couple that did not attend at all because her grand baby was coming into town.
[46:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she, most of the time, she didn't film in the apartment.
[46:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She filmed in our house in hospital.
[47:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[47:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So we didn't move in to the apartments.
[47:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We stayed at my ex's house.
[47:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I thought that they had put in the contract after our season that everybody had to move into the apartments because nobody from our season like it was like I think only Eric and Virginia were staying in those actual apartments.
[47:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But you're right that means so much changes over the years.
[47:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think
[47:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like my producer had only worked with Greg and Diana and Brandon and Taylor, I think, and so some of them.
[47:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay.
[47:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I came in and out, but they were like,
[47:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: day players I think is what they called them where it was like okay they were contracted per season and some were asked back in some words like virginia's producer who caused a lot of drama along with amongst everyone who came from love and hip hop so
[48:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I didn't translate well to married it for a site, but then they were not asked back at that season.
[48:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay.
[48:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So some of them say some of them go, I mean, again, it's been six years, but it would be okay.
[48:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I wouldn't be surprised if they were like, start from scratch.
[48:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[48:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'll try to keep the top people and then everybody else gets new blood.
[48:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That makes sense.
[48:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That makes sense.
[48:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Um, Caitlyn and Devon, I mean, they were a big Korean last night, but they're back to being hand in hands and they were talking, I think they were going on the, they were going on a hike and she was like, she apologizes for the night before she says she feels like she was combative.
[48:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He says it was toxic.
[48:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that she eventually heard him two hours later and she's like, you know, the concept of fighting not fighting to win is the foreign concept to her and she needs to work up not because she just always wants to win.
[48:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And the conversation shifts to him saying like, you know, I don't like being shut down whenever we're having a conversation, I want to be heard and I don't like or agree with toxic communication toxic again.
[49:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it is a non-negotiable for me.
[49:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he's like in his teacher, scolding voice, like dead ass, serious, letting you know.
[49:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I was like, huh, this is interesting.
[49:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She doesn't really react, but later on, I find out why they're telling us this because it's gonna come up again.
[49:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The girls are getting ready for the dinner that they're going to have and this is when they're separated so Michelle Nikki and Belle are getting ready together and I don't know if it came up organically or anything they were talking about the dream girl but Michelle shares about you know I don't think mecha said.
[49:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Big kids or anything.
[49:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But by the way, it gets to her.
[49:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's all bigger titties and who knew that just, no, no, titties just makes it worse.
[49:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It just sounds more vulgar than it is.
[50:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But that is how it was delivered.
[50:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she does say, I do want to point out that she does say that Adam was grilling everyone about their dream girl.
[50:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Because we didn't see that.
[50:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: All he saw was he grilling Mecca.
[50:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it doesn't make it any better.
[50:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But maybe it was a round robbing thing.
[50:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Adam, guys is the one really everyone, but I just wanted to point that out and I just wonder if Mecca was the only one who to debate and they were like, aha, we got our shot right here and that's what we're going to go with.
[50:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Vel says, if I were being honest, I didn't ask for a guy that paints his nails and he could tell she was holding herself from saying more, but I am not that person.
[50:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And Nikki is like, you know, what I can relate to that conversation because off camera, she shares again, that he said that she's a 10, but it's seven in New York.
[50:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't know.
[50:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can tell me if this was in 18, but um, the internet is saying a lot of things about how it wasn't a full conversation.
[51:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Do they have this conversation in Sean says she did something first?
[51:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: before he says that she like grabbed his stomach and said, we'll get you.
[51:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then he somehow works that in.
[51:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And Sean loves he gatekeep gas like girl boss over here.
[51:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He gas like like an actual professional in the most terrifying way where he's like,
[51:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, that you heard you wrong and I didn't say this.
[51:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I'm like, I don't believe anything that comes out of that man's mouth.
[51:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But it sounds like he was trying to humble her because he felt insecure by what she had said about his death on.
[51:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, okay.
[51:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: All right.
[51:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So.
[51:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: lots of things.
[51:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But okay, so that happened.
[51:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then she says that.
[51:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And Nikki says she feels like he was humbling her.
[51:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she was kind and then react because she knows that there's a hurt little boy there.
[51:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she just wants to be soft.
[51:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That was shading.
[51:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's anyone missed it.
[52:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But that was just like.
[52:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Soft, classy, shit.
[52:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You just say, yeah, there's a boy there.
[52:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm not going to be going to sleep to that level.
[52:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She says they're good now, but the question is, is he performing and can he really be kind of compassionate on a consistent basis?
[52:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Again, I said this last episode, you guys know I didn't watch this, but I really had a problem with the way the men like to humble the women.
[52:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I just,
[52:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you don't like them, leave or whatever, or keep the thoughts to yourself, but you do not have to humble someone, it will not make you feel better.
[52:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, maybe they do.
[52:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's a very red pill thing.
[52:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think it's like very much men in the internet age of like, I don't know.
[52:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't per take in red pill media, but that it does seem to be a tactic.
[52:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Where it's like, you have to constantly assert your dominance and it's like, it's the constant nagging.
[52:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I'm like,
[52:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: How exhausting is that for you guys to like constantly feel like you have to put women down?
[52:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just can't imagine always having to feel like I have to tell my partner like little tiny negative things.
[53:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He's doing all the time.
[53:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What makes it more frustrating is like, there are options there.
[53:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can find partners who are whatever it is that you're looking for, but these men want to find women who are big and loud and vibrant and then cage them.
[53:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: When you could easily, he could easily fight someone who believes in you being the Lord, the master, the head, the everything, go get them and then you're matched together, but no.
[53:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's never the case.
[53:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's always because you're not attracted to some submissive quote-unquote women.
[53:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They get off on humbling, strong women.
[53:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They want to bring
[53:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: these vivacious women down a peg, that's what they want.
[53:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They don't, I mean, it's the, you know, Pearl, look like.
[53:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, she's a right-wing talking head propagate.
[54:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She's like very pro-trad wife, whatever.
[54:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But talking, we not at all know man will hate her.
[54:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it's like, yeah, because men don't actually want these women
[54:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They want to not face people down.
[54:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So we can go on.
[54:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's forever.
[54:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[54:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[54:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I mean, I like I said, I have had this question about Sean is like, it just feels like he's not being his true self.
[54:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's, I don't want to say performative because we views that word a lot, so not that.
[54:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But it feels like he wants to say the things that he thinks people want him to say instead of just being himself.
[54:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So he always reads as maybe not authentic all the time.
[54:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But she says she wonders if she needs to cater to him to make him a kind husband.
[54:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And hearing Bill talk about Mecca is bringing all these things up for her.
[54:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Since Michelle has been successfully married for five weeks, like she just wants to like shake this women with all the knowledge that she has.
[55:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you know, they're dealing with little boys.
[55:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she hopes that people hold themselves accountable and respect themselves.
[55:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And
[55:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That was shade again, right?
[55:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like I just, what do you think of that comment?
[55:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Is it hurt wanting better for her girls or that was shade?
[55:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think it was, you have to add in the context of Bell Julie telling Nikki, Sean's not your man.
[55:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You need to stand up.
[55:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You need to, actually, Bell Julie, I mean, you can tell she's talking about Mecca, but she's saying it about Sean.
[55:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And...
[55:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then I think Michelle feels in boldness to be like, no, all of you need to stand up.
[55:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Do I think all these women need to stand up?
[55:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes.
[55:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Do I think Michelle is the correct messenger?
[55:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Or that method?
[55:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: No.
[55:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think the way she went about it, you have to have the context of Michelle and Cameron constantly being on the high horse.
[56:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: being like, oh, we're the strongest couple in New York.
[56:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, we just had Cameron and that group dinner being like, nobody on this side of the table should say to go through it.
[56:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They clearly feel like they are the best couple.
[56:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So Michelle's being the one to say that.
[56:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, girl.
[56:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: No.
[56:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She's not like wrong.
[56:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What can I point out that this was said before to dinner party?
[56:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She hasn't even said the comments they were talking about.
[56:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying.
[56:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Not yet.
[56:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She said this right after the room stuff and was like, oh,
[56:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was talking about at the dinner table when she does this again, and she doesn't again.
[56:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And this one is like twice.
[56:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So this hadn't even happened that I was like, is this shade or is this you wanting better?
[56:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But by the time she does the same thing, she's speaking about one in the
[56:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Um, okay, so Tony and Felipe say they're good and, you know, they talked, I think they're at the dinner now and cameras like, oh, Tony and Felipe, they're like a telling novella like, um, eyebrows raised, but I'm gonna let that slide.
[57:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, um,
[57:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay.
[57:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thank you, Judge.
[57:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And Mickey says, you know, she's suffering and she like Sean and she actually misses him.
[57:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Bell says it's nothing against Sean.
[57:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is a part.
[57:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she loves that, but for her, it's a hell no.
[57:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, yeah, he's us in.
[57:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, where's this coming from?
[57:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What's happening?
[57:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'm not going to call out Michelle and also not call out Belle because this is a part where everyone is jumping into each other's relationship If she's choosing to still be with him and she didn't say hey girl, what do you think about this?
[58:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Do you think it's for me to just come right out and just be like?
[58:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, I love that you love that but for me, it's a hell no, and that's what I'm gonna like that's kind of to me.
[58:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah You know, just what I was saying earlier when I jumped.
[58:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think we all start feeling really comfortable, dog filing on people, but you can here, you can totally hear that Bell's really is talking about Mecca, and they're saying about Sean, and Mecca's sitting there going.
[58:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Is this like, I about us like, is it, is it me Jesus, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it
[58:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: be good with it.
[58:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, and I've said this like a Lego you said mentioned earlier, a lot of them are avoidance.
[59:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, Bellsure Lee doesn't like to talk about stuff immediately.
[59:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: A couple of times we've seen Mecca try to bring up stuff and she's like, Oh, do we need to talk about this now?
[59:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[59:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Now I don't know what she means.
[59:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Do we need to talk about it on camera?
[59:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I do feel virtually is about appearances, but not in a, I want to mislead you kind of way.
[59:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think she's just growing up or a kind of person who's like, I don't want to air my dirty laundry or don't give people ammunition to use against you.
[59:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let's just solve it privately between us.
[59:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I'm never quite sure if it's like a off camera.
[59:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let's not talk about it or I just don't want to talk about it.
[59:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Now I need space because I'm where I like that.
[59:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm a, I need to talk about it now.
[59:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I will, I will know when I need a breather and I feel like I know that if I don't step away from this right now, I'm going to say something that we're both going to have to deal with later.
[59:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so I, so I understand when she needs this face to sort of face this thing, but it's like she needs a space and then she comes back and she's like definitely doesn't address it at all.
[1:00:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I'm like, oh, I just, again, I, I went her so badly all season to just
[1:00:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: actually say how she feels.
[1:00:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so being like, yeah, I do the same thing.
[1:00:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I did the same thing.
[1:00:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's so much emotionally that I watch and I'm like, oh, this is my lived experience of like being uncomfortable with things that are said and done and just going beat, it's fine.
[1:00:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What I'm talking about, like, so I can't be so mad at her, but I'm like, I'm mad at myself, my past self when I watch it.
[1:00:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm like, what more for you, babe?
[1:00:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, do better.
[1:00:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I know.
[1:00:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, what I'm thinking is if you signed up for this show for some people, then there's certainly where it's like, okay, this is my last hope that's exaggerating, but like if this doesn't work, what does that say about me, blah blah blah, you're trying your absolute best so that when you come out of it, you don't feel like you didn't, so maybe that's what she's doing is just, yeah.
[1:01:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: they're going to have absolute best in this regard.
[1:01:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I have a question for you.
[1:01:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Nicky shares the comments about the 72510, whatever skill ranking that Sean said, should this have been said without him being there?
[1:01:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm thinking that's a good question.
[1:01:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think she's allowed to live her truth and talk about
[1:01:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This it's interesting because it seems like this comment was made quite a while ago and we're just now Talking about it from what I understand Maybe within the context of this season note, maybe she should have waited for him to be there.
[1:01:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I really hadn't thought about that at all Okay, I don't I get it.
[1:01:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, like he it's not maybe it's not feared for that he's not there to defend himself and like
[1:01:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He's so proud.
[1:01:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've got to be just so honest, I'm not a huge Nicki fan either.
[1:01:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I find that her and Sean very difficult to watch because it seems so disingenuous.
[1:02:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, I don't buy a word out of either of their mouths.
[1:02:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It feels really, really hamming it up for the camera and to like sell his book, which that man writing a book
[1:02:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know.
[1:02:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I can't get a good rate on either of them.
[1:02:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just feel like they're both weird.
[1:02:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I do.
[1:02:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I do think they're odd but for some reason when
[1:02:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They, the rest of the couples react to it, then I get defensive of them.
[1:02:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'm like, well, there are other people.
[1:02:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We're going to do this to them, do this to other people.
[1:02:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But I'll tell you what I thought about this.
[1:02:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, she has said that without them.
[1:02:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Again, the whip blaster we're getting with the story telling, you can't say we're good now.
[1:02:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I like him and I miss him.
[1:02:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I do this.
[1:02:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then you bring this up and he's not there.
[1:02:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: One part of me is like, are you saying this to Garner?
[1:02:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Who ever tells the story first?
[1:02:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Usually has the people support?
[1:02:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: because he should not speak at all just because he's not there.
[1:03:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think she should, I think telling the girls was fine.
[1:03:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You're telling the girls you're telling that, but you're in the table, and now we've brought it.
[1:03:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: By the time he gets it, it's got again.
[1:03:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: By the means, I'm not in this lifetime of the lifetime afterwards, but I'm just like we know that it's hunger games married for a sighted edition.
[1:03:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You put something out there, it's going to be hard to come back.
[1:03:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But you can't say, I think the kicker for me is, we're good.
[1:03:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I want to work this through.
[1:03:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then it's like, well, he said this.
[1:03:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you moved on from it, why are we saying this over?
[1:03:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's going to spread any ways.
[1:03:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But you're saying it.
[1:03:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So when he comes back and he says, oh, we're in the same page.
[1:03:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: How are my students to say, like, oh, let's go with the rooms.
[1:03:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They're saying they're fine.
[1:03:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let's go with that.
[1:03:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let's just go home with the fact that we know.
[1:03:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you say you're fine.
[1:03:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you've told everyone like, well, you made this comment.
[1:03:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I moved on, but I made this comment multiple times in front of everybody who's looking for a reason to.
[1:03:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[1:03:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That was funny thing.
[1:03:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[1:03:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: No.
[1:04:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think you are correct there.
[1:04:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I hadn't really thought about it from that lens just because again, I like, I never know what's going on with these two.
[1:04:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[1:04:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think that's like, that's been kind of a theme with a lot of these couples this whole season is like, you say things are fine and you move past them and then we keep
[1:04:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: what you have to either be moved on or address it in like be in that moment.
[1:04:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it is a very sort of awkward conversation that they have an 18 addressing that this and it's like she almost gets joy out of putting him down again, I am super not team Sean.
[1:04:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: at the same time.
[1:04:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But she enjoys talking about the things he's doing wrong and his faults and his flaws.
[1:04:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because he clearly does the same and it's such a tit for tap thing, but it's, but then it's like, but you know, we really like each other and you're like, okay, which is it?
[1:05:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[1:05:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[1:05:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And which is why I just say, I don't buy a word out of either of their mouths.
[1:05:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I, I wanna assume they're both gonna say no on decision day, but who knows?
[1:05:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: who knows, he already posted some pictures saying of what happened.
[1:05:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I was like, if there were bad terms, would he be able to post pictures of the times they had?
[1:05:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But again, what does it mean?
[1:05:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He owns posts and pictures of her in Devon, Courtney is posting pictures of her in Nick, like, which we've, like, briefly touched on them.
[1:05:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Being on social media, it's just bonkers to me.
[1:05:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[1:05:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, we were allowed to post, so like, I had to have my Instagram private.
[1:05:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: and I couldn't accept new followers.
[1:05:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But for people in my life, I was allowed to post like if it was if it was honeymoon, I could post honeymoon photos after the episode aired.
[1:05:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If it was month adversaries, like we did a helicopter ride.
[1:05:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was allowed to post his helicopter photos after that episode aired.
[1:05:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: farther than that.
[1:06:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it was only to be seen by the people who already followed you.
[1:06:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And they seem to be doing the same sort of thing where they're posting pictures of like, oh, BTS of couples are tree and it's like, I don't know, we are, you're split in the way that you're talking and like, it's just on, it's very on.
[1:06:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[1:06:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They're linking outfits.
[1:06:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I will say, Nick, Mecca, they're all up in threads.
[1:06:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you just remind me, actually cry.
[1:06:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I can't, I had to, it was too much for me, but I wanted to read to you guys what something Mecca said, which is going to just shed so much light to everything.
[1:06:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Someone said, why go on a show to get married when you're not ready or emotionally mature enough for marriage and mecca said, and I quote.
[1:06:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: After all, it is an experiment.
[1:06:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The point of the show is not to come into it necessarily, quote, ready to be married or even emotionally mature enough for marriage, but rather to work through your emotions, traumas, doubts, and fears to reach a conclusion of readiness on decision day.
[1:07:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So if that doesn't tell you what this season is about, I don't know what else.
[1:07:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: that you you just can't move past the fact that these people aren't married.
[1:07:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It has changed the entire DNA of the show.
[1:07:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[1:07:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: In a way that like, and funny enough, I posted a text talk about somebody who asked me my opinion on the new experts and I was like giving a bit of a deep dive on the old experts versus the new experts and I just kept saying like,
[1:07:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The fact that they're not married has changed every single interaction and I was surprised that nobody knew that or it was not like widespread information like all of my comments were like what do you mean they're not very what do you mean they're not very didn't like once you know that you can't unsee it and I think Devon even says it in episode 16 where he's like we have a week to decide if we want to get married or not.
[1:07:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And how they approach the conflict is completely different.
[1:08:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: How the advice is given from the experts is completely different.
[1:08:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like every single interaction is like me because it blows my mind for him to say that, but he's not wrong.
[1:08:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They don't have to be ready for marriage because they're not married.
[1:08:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So so.
[1:08:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, sorry, go ahead.
[1:08:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: No, you're good, you're good.
[1:08:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was gonna say Kristen says her guess is that they decide and then they sign the marriage license.
[1:08:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, I think they're... At the end.
[1:08:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Supposedly, like, I wanna say the marriage license was like signed at the wedding ceremony from what I understand but they didn't submit it.
[1:08:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: A total decision day.
[1:08:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Maybe that's why it's six weeks.
[1:08:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What is the time window before you can submit?
[1:08:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, I don't know.
[1:08:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know.
[1:08:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Just like we had to go to the courthouse and like have an efficient, like do the whole thing there in the moment.
[1:09:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And to your point, they go, they go back and forth.
[1:09:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, we're married, and Philippe is like, I'm not sure if I'm ready to be married.
[1:09:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And like, did you guys forget that you're allegedly supposed to be married?
[1:09:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's what I said.
[1:09:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just wanted to know if they are cause-playing married.
[1:09:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that is completely different than being married.
[1:09:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Not about anybody says, Nick and Courtney walked away barely exploit for an ex-girlfriend.
[1:09:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Truly.
[1:09:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's known his ex-wife, that's like some girl he like kissed three times and hung out with for three weeks.
[1:09:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like it's just a, it changes the whole fiber of every single thing.
[1:09:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And when you're watching all of these fights, it's like people are much more quick to give up because they can and they can walk away kind of
[1:09:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Which is why I'm just like, why do they act like it's such this heavy decision.
[1:09:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's kind of like lifted a little bit for you.
[1:10:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, right, just enjoying it.
[1:10:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Anyways, um, it's for the exact words that Bill was saying that we're for Mecca, but she was saying was for Sean, who is not actually at the dinner party.
[1:10:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She was like, it's crazy.
[1:10:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can be honest and respectful like, you know, and you have to think of them and anyone who talks like that is insecure.
[1:10:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that's when we get the faces from Mecca.
[1:10:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, is it me?
[1:10:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Um, Devon does say like it was fucked up, like they all say different things, but they all deserve grace.
[1:10:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: time.
[1:10:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So we're going to share this great thing.
[1:10:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And now this is where Michelle, St. Michelle comes in and is like, it's my opinion, you know, but you have to know into walk away.
[1:10:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You have to know your value.
[1:10:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You have to know what you deserve.
[1:10:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: that it makes you more special than just trying to get to decision day and Nicky is like, uh, hold up, like, that is a wild assumption to think that people are doing this for optic reasons.
[1:10:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Then she says, like, I mean, I think that applies to everyone, where especially when you know that that person is not your fit and they have disrespected you, we need to think more long-term.
[1:11:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Five weeks of marriage, people.
[1:11:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because you can't tell me Nikki and Sean aren't there for the optics, you can't not convince me of anything like I said before I'll say it on it right message wrong messenger.
[1:11:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, yes, patron saint of marriages Michelle.
[1:11:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She's not wrong.
[1:11:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: These women do need to stand up and walk away and.
[1:11:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: a high emotion since yes or yes, it's just not time and play spam like
[1:11:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, I mean, I was checking myself.
[1:11:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was like, is she saying anything wrong?
[1:11:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And like not really.
[1:11:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I was like, why am I so annoyed?
[1:12:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But I don't think I got the answer to me.
[1:12:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to know the answer, but yeah, but she's not saying anything.
[1:12:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think it's the tone.
[1:12:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I will not say grace.
[1:12:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Give them time to get to that point themselves, but to say, well, you just have to, and if you don't, you don't respect yourself.
[1:12:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You don't value yourself.
[1:12:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You've also only known this women for five weeks.
[1:12:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, you don't have the right to say that.
[1:12:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've had friends who are in terrible relationships, and you can only tell your friend, you hate their partners so many times before it's like, do they have to figure it out on their own?
[1:12:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And like,
[1:12:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's no longer any of my business.
[1:12:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And if you ask me my opinion, I'll give you my opinion.
[1:12:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But if you're not asking, I'm not going to waste my grass.
[1:12:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is also a better way to say this.
[1:12:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's like, listen, this is tough.
[1:12:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, you need to say we're all going through, you know, this is very difficult.
[1:12:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's like, you know, we go through these.
[1:12:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We have to go back and forward.
[1:12:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We just need to make sure everyone makes the right decision for themselves on decision day.
[1:13:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Something, but not value yourself.
[1:13:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Think more long-term, you idiots.
[1:13:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That was silenced, but much.
[1:13:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But Nikki is like, that's a wild assumption again, because we all have different relationships or more challenges than you know you guys do, but it doesn't mean we don't respect ourselves and all of that is false and it's your opinion it's your truth, but I just want to call BS you could tell Nikki was heated, but she was just she went.
[1:13:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: try to keep her close.
[1:13:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think she really got.
[1:13:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She was read to fills there like a man who was saying about everybody, but Nikki, I think Nikki took it to heart because it was true.
[1:13:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Maybe she did, you know what, I watched it completely different.
[1:13:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I thought Nikki clocked Michelle and go into the same.
[1:13:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, it's hilarious.
[1:13:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You're not wrong.
[1:13:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You're not wrong.
[1:13:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It did go back.
[1:13:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But it did.
[1:13:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, Nikki was really defensive there.
[1:14:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Because the other part of it is, yes, we get a shot of Bill Julie, just taking her drink.
[1:14:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: When she says we need to value, we need to respect herself.
[1:14:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She just told her about the big titty thing.
[1:14:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's like, oh, you just hear a smiling with the guy and you don't value yourself.
[1:14:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'm just like, oh, what?
[1:14:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This is so good.
[1:14:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, um, Felipe says, you have to understand everyone is different and mist it says in the confessional like, oh my god, being around everyone, everyone staring the pot, people get nutty, we're around each other too much, like we just need to chill and have fun.
[1:14:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I got goes to Caitlin.
[1:14:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm like, wait, they're friends.
[1:14:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[1:14:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What, and she was like, are you seeing what I'm seeing?
[1:14:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she's like, what, what?
[1:14:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she's like, seeing Belle being feisty.
[1:14:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And this was so odd to me, Clara, when she says, quote, I like that you're talking to me about this now.
[1:14:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I feel so cool.
[1:14:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What?
[1:14:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I didn't, I didn't peep that the first time and then I was rewatching and I was like, what is this an interesting reaction?
[1:15:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But you mentioned this earlier, and my friend and I do wives every Wednesday where we talk about this for weeks.
[1:15:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The editing is weird this season.
[1:15:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it's the fact that we aren't seeing these people outside of like group dinner group, whatever, like has, have they gone on double dates or her and Mecca, like, act like friends on the outside of this, like, are they,
[1:15:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What is the dynamic of the two of them before we have entered this couple's retreat?
[1:15:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Is there background of like all of them hanging out that we haven't seen?
[1:15:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Because from outside looking in with the information we've been given, weird.
[1:15:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Why Caitlin?
[1:15:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Why not one of the guys?
[1:15:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But then we're just snitched on him.
[1:15:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, well, yeah, I'm going to guess that's fair.
[1:15:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's just like it is there a friendship there that we haven't seen.
[1:16:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Or is the super random we don't if I had to pick I would say they're not friends because if you're friends, why would you feel so cool that he's coming to talk to you about this.
[1:16:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, I guess that's fair.
[1:16:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It was a weird comment.
[1:16:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I would like.
[1:16:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, odd.
[1:16:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: My read was she has a question him like if they ask her who's the most attractive You'd be like Mecca, but in her mind like oh, I don't even think he I'm his type or he notices me So it was giving oh my god, you know my name oh my god, you know you've seen me in the hallway You see me in class and you know my name.
[1:16:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's what it was giving to
[1:16:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Do have we gotten any history any, any dating history on her to she date outside of her race her.
[1:16:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I didn't know I'm going to assume with her.
[1:16:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Magadatti.
[1:16:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know that that would go over well.
[1:16:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You truly did try to make a point with their parents and then go outside.
[1:16:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I haven't got any.
[1:16:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She had God whoever it was that she said was her like celebrity crush was like some football players like Instagram.
[1:17:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They're not going to extranair.
[1:17:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't want to who the guy was because I don't keep up with athletes like this, but the guy whoever the guy was my friend sent me a picture.
[1:17:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He was like the first person at the unveiling of the Charlie Kirkstatch you and I was like oh and Devon had said his type was Sydney Sweeney.
[1:17:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I was like oh yeah conservative match made in heaven.
[1:17:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I would be curious to know if she has dated outside of her race
[1:17:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Or she just like is drawn to Mecca because again apparently he has the the Riz as Adam says.
[1:17:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I mean, he's my I've said it before he's my most attractive groom, but yeah, I think it is to know who it is, but yeah, I wasn't thinking there were friends just because of that comment that it was cool and then he's like, yeah, my girl, come on now.
[1:17:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then he asked like, is what she's had a reflection of what she feels towards me?
[1:17:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She has no idea, because I don't know in the conversation.
[1:18:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But she's just like, oh, she was pissed out when Nikki said, but she forgets that they told her there was a comment.
[1:18:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Early this morning, Michelle told her that, you know, mech has said some of the good things that we're said, but she's just so glad he's talking to her, like I think she blanked out, honestly.
[1:18:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she said, no, no, no, she's just mad at what Nikki said.
[1:18:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Then Mecca grabs Belle because Mecca is a let's talk about it right now.
[1:18:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he's like, um, what happened was going on.
[1:18:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she's like, I found out, um, the level of the attraction that you were talking about and what the attraction specifics is what she says, but as always, she doesn't want to talk about it right now.
[1:18:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, that's true, but people could hear them.
[1:18:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, not exactly what they were saying, but voices were raised.
[1:18:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So at this point, everyone is playing games and Mekka is telling her like, it was a boy's conversation.
[1:18:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He didn't think it was going to go back to her.
[1:19:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I wild comment to be like, well, yeah, of course I said it because I didn't think you'd hear it.
[1:19:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, yeah, clearly, just saying that out loud is insane.
[1:19:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can't teach.
[1:19:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: awareness I guess like again it's what Tory has been saying if you can't even think of it what the heck am I supposed to tell you yeah like and again just truly the idea that my partner would be talking about me like that when I'm not in the room and then to be so bold to be like well yeah I don't think you'd hear or so thought it'd be fine like whoa okay yeah
[1:19:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: not build a man, like we're doing.
[1:19:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He's built.
[1:19:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He's set and set on at this point.
[1:19:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Also, they're cameras guy.
[1:19:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's on a reality TV show.
[1:19:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Even if the guys didn't say anything, she's going to want you.
[1:19:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He wouldn't go watch it.
[1:19:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's quite an easiest part.
[1:20:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[1:20:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[1:20:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's crazy.
[1:20:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So Bell is like, this is why she's been holding back on saying certain things because his focus is just on her being so feisty and she's just like driving holding back because I don't want to say certain things and in case anyone is not reading between the lines.
[1:20:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: My interpretation of this is like, I know myself.
[1:20:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm going to get mad.
[1:20:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want to pop up on camera and come up a certain way, especially as a black woman.
[1:20:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So don't push me.
[1:20:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So when I say I don't want to talk about stuff, respect me, let me be, let me handle it my way, because this is what I didn't want to happen.
[1:20:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, you know, and he should know that, but I digress, but she says mech has on thin eyes that she thinks about who she is outside of this process, that she wouldn't put up with half of this and marriage is what's making her think of it.
[1:20:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that's how you know the difference in mindset.
[1:20:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: While some people are like, ah, it's not really a true marriage.
[1:20:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She's taken it seriously.
[1:20:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You're like, yes, I haven't signed it, but I am married by all accounts to this person.
[1:21:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I'm going to act like it.
[1:21:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She didn't get that way and we've seen that in previous seasons like even with page.
[1:21:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think where it's just like I take marriage sacred and I'm going to be For better or worse it makes you stay in things longer, but it's just raising that stakes personally even though the show was not putting that on you so That's where she is on that and she says the attraction thing is haunting me and she has feelings and quite frankly She's tired of talking about it
[1:21:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm kind of tired of hearing about it.
[1:21:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, I'm saying.
[1:21:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They've done it.
[1:21:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They've done it.
[1:21:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She's crying, but in the confessional, she's like, we're okay.
[1:21:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it's like that mean where the dog isn't between like the fire.
[1:21:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We're fine.
[1:21:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Everything's fine.
[1:21:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'll get it.
[1:21:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So they're playing games and they'll like spend the bottle, ask questions, messy, very messy.
[1:21:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, I don't like these kind of games.
[1:21:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I agree with Devon where I'm like, I don't like stuff like this that's meant to make people feel bad about themselves, that's the whole point of this is like, especially the first night's game, like, oh, picking the person who XYZ like, yeah, it's funny, but I don't know, it makes me sad.
[1:22:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And they don't have to foundation.
[1:22:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, like withstand the go the people have like years.
[1:22:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know people people are still trying to find their footing on people.
[1:22:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I don't know.
[1:22:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The S Bell like if not your groom who would your match be and she's like, I'm not answering this question.
[1:22:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, you know, in fact, you know what I'll pick.
[1:22:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's Tory.
[1:22:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then all the girls say, oh, no, it's this person is each other.
[1:22:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And Devon is all can I watch like a high schooler and Caitlin.
[1:22:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't like cancer and then they ask me.
[1:22:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You guys.
[1:22:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Mecha answers the question.
[1:22:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: In the that's point, everything that has happened.
[1:22:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She has told you how she feels.
[1:22:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She has told you I do not like this.
[1:22:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is embarrassing.
[1:22:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We have just barely not even got out of Titi Gate and they ask him and he gives not one answer, but two and oh, Clara, what do you have to say?
[1:23:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Two rules and not a Titi between the two of them.
[1:23:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay.
[1:23:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, so then you know that it's not really, yeah, about that, but then to your point, again, alien and Michelle, is it people that call people out?
[1:23:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, he just likes that confrontation.
[1:23:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The is, oh, is it a mother figure type thing, maybe strong personalities?
[1:23:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, I would say Michelle is clearly capable of expressing herself and she seems smart
[1:23:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She says what she thinks in a way that is not like verbal diarrhea necessarily, but like she, you know, she stands on her own business and I think he's drawn to that because we saw him, what I don't know episode to go, we're going to be called him out in either the group therapy or the group dinner and he was like, very bothered and he says he makes a positive comment of like, they're really bothered me from Michelle because I really respect her.
[1:24:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, I was going to bring that up.
[1:24:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I just occurred to me right now.
[1:24:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'm like, I know, hearing hates disappointing people.
[1:24:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But yeah, specifically because at that point, he got called out by Courtney and Michelle, but I remember I was like, oh, he didn't say Courtney, but he just said Michelle, that he was just somebody like, it's her name.
[1:24:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm by her.
[1:24:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But yes, so, again, maybe onto something.
[1:24:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But for me, this was just a nail in the coffin.
[1:24:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, I really want Ted.
[1:24:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Mecca and Bill Jolie to work out, but no, wrong girl in Saviour.
[1:24:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So yeah, because this is the third time that we know of there might be even more and even after you watch Bill Jolie site step the question and the conversation and he answered gave two answers and then says, I'm just answering the question and just answering the call even Felipe could fake it and say, I'm not, you know, doing this, but then no one else seems mad.
[1:24:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: No.
[1:24:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, not even Bell Jolie was like, here we go again.
[1:25:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'm like, what is it just me and I do into much, but what's happening right now?
[1:25:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, I, Bell Jolie, I understand her not wanting to have these conversations on camera and I do understand that she doesn't want to be perceived any specific way, but I just, I want her to call out his shit a little bit more.
[1:25:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And like,
[1:25:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She seems so good to just be like, it's fine, it's fine, it's not fine.
[1:25:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's the way that he talks to her about her, the way that he speaks to Ginger, it's not okay, especially for somebody that's supposed to be your your spouse or whoever, like, it's so disrespectful.
[1:25:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I, I mean, maybe she's already like made up her mind that she is saying no,
[1:25:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: doesn't care but she clearly has feelings for him as she said over and over and just like again I said this before I'm like I want to give her the biggest hug and be like babe like we all let's so much more for you but like when you have you you have to say something like you are being suspected out loud time after time after time you've got to address it.
[1:26:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[1:26:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[1:26:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, also Belcher Lee's on cameo, if anyone's interested.
[1:26:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it's $47 because she's $47 a year's old.
[1:26:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Hey, you know what, you know, I've got to stop it from getting their coins again.
[1:26:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's just one of the adjustments because you are right, like back in the day until the reunion before we got accepted, you know, as a follow, but now free for all very everybody.
[1:26:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: All right, the game is over and I'm thinking enough drama for the night, but no, no, no, no, no, not today.
[1:26:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Caitlyn grabs Mecca.
[1:26:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Hey, Mecca, you want to go outside for a debrief?
[1:26:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Can I pull you?
[1:26:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know what, it was, it was.
[1:26:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Can I pull you for a chat with crazy work?
[1:26:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What the hell is going on?
[1:27:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm so confused.
[1:27:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I thought Mecca had pulled her and when I re-watched it was her and I was like, what's her?
[1:27:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Got to be kind of everyone what we're going to go debrief about what like he's one of the girls.
[1:27:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What are you looking at crazy work.
[1:27:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Adam is like, what is this like, and then he turns to David, you know, we need to go on Michelle and Cameron, but Adam is an instigator right there.
[1:27:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Marissa is not going to do anything, but just a digdle and her man, but Adam is just, Adam's like, what is this like, you're just going to let your girl talk to Mekka every 15 minutes.
[1:27:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Recent up Mekka for 15 minutes.
[1:27:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Do you have an atom?
[1:27:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I can't see an atom, but when he makes me laugh, I'm like, God, he is pretty like liner.
[1:27:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Especially when he doesn't use cooked viber all that.
[1:27:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And he's just pretty.
[1:27:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But it is interesting, like, I feel like Adam and Marissa got off really Scott free in these couple episodes.
[1:27:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, there's so much going on that we don't really see them at all.
[1:27:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But you do see Adam poking and poking and poking and poking and people kind of behind the scenes.
[1:28:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, it really flies under the radar.
[1:28:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But a lot of the drama is
[1:28:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, it doesn't look like they like Michelle and Karen get in the flag, but Adam was right there like this is a cast in person's dream they got self-producers all up in here and they need to understand the assignment completely
[1:28:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Adam is telling Devin like, hey, mech is just hitting her up for you because remember, Devin and Caitlyn which already was just Ikki are supposed to have sex that night, everyone knows that and everyone was expecting.
[1:28:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So he's just like she's hitting you up for you that this is crazy like maybe they're just talking about whether you're going to have sex and like still weird and he shouldn't even be like it's none of their business.
[1:28:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Also the way the
[1:28:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's not like, oh, like he's talking about how, you know, she should be able to be like, oh, he's telling her she should fuck me.
[1:28:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's like, okay, the way he talks about their sex life and lack of is really itch to me.
[1:29:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he did it earlier and she said I don't like that like don't use that word like you know when you're talking about it.
[1:29:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But either way, Devon 0 to 1000 he's already clearly pissed.
[1:29:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's like this conversation looks very flirty and then we get flashbacks.
[1:29:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We get 238 a.m. security cam.
[1:29:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Where they're doing like, I don't know, is it promis fingers like me?
[1:29:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, Bell show these right here, like when like girl.
[1:29:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That makes me think that whatever was happening there, it was a very short clip and it maybe wasn't as sinister as that.
[1:29:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When looked, it's the necklace that's
[1:29:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: worse than me.
[1:29:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I think it's a combination of both.
[1:29:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: When I saw the kissy or whatever, and Bell Julie was there, I'm like, okay, maybe it's not that bad.
[1:29:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But also, Bell Julie is just, it's fine, whatever, and she doesn't.
[1:29:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Because sometimes it's the little things when you put it all together.
[1:30:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Then I'm like, oh, that's not bad.
[1:30:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They're just trying to instigate.
[1:30:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Then we see another shot.
[1:30:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So the first time I saw it, I thought he was massaging her shoulders.
[1:30:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But then I be wrong and then I saw like he was putting the chain on her and I'm like nah, these people are not taking this as a marriage because what the egg is like what what are we doing and like Max and I were talking about this because I was like I don't know maybe it's not that bad and he's like yeah babe because like all of our friends are very secure in their relationships and like we are very we trust each other when you have trust doing so like that maybe wouldn't be that big of a deal but none of these people trust each other their relationships are so unestablished still that like
[1:30:40] \[UNKNOWN\]: you
[1:30:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: that was crossing a line on both of it.
[1:30:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And you see Devon like looking over the couch, peeping it.
[1:30:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, yeah.
[1:30:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's multiple times.
[1:30:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Those are the ones they showed us.
[1:30:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think for me is the way she comes alive.
[1:30:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think Devon is right when he says, like, you're not giving it to me, but I see the way I sparkle when you're with him.
[1:31:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So he's not wrong.
[1:31:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think that would plain to everything, because you're telling me I'm a slow bird, but it looks like you're sparking over here.
[1:31:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like what's going on?
[1:31:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I mean, how is he supposed to know again that that was a sign when I'm seeing you do this with Mecca, you know, so then we get security cam security cam is the with how many couples do we have 14 15 cast member the season.
[1:31:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And we see Devin, Bell, Mecca, and Caitlyn in the living room, and Devin is just, this is fucking bullshit.
[1:31:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He overstepped and you played into it.
[1:31:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The he is Mecca, but you would not tell that it was Mecca because Mecca was laid out on the couch, the empty bottle of teetos.
[1:31:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Mecca and Caitlyn on one couch.
[1:31:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Devin and Bell and me on the other couch, which I was like, hmm, okay.
[1:31:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: How did we get here?
[1:31:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She says you are bringing up a bunch of dumbass fucking shit that doesn't matter and she's like, this is what happened Devon says what happened to your head or a real life.
[1:32:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm like, oh my gosh Yeah, she says shut the fuck up and that just sets him off.
[1:32:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's like
[1:32:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You need a story and he starts to get in her face.
[1:32:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I will say that like I'm not saying like he I'm seeing people online saying like oh, he just got up.
[1:32:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He just know he went forward Let's be clear intimidation.
[1:32:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He was putting his hand, you know, towards her face.
[1:32:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like you can do Yeah, they're off the couch to get more physically over her
[1:32:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, didn't like that at all.
[1:32:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, we were sitting there going, no, like I'm like, I understand that she told him to shut the fuck up.
[1:32:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He wasn't letting her finish sentences.
[1:32:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you go back and watch it, like he kept cutting her off.
[1:32:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm not saying that you're still cut at your partner.
[1:32:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But like,
[1:32:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I do understand the frustration of like I'm trying to say something and you won't let me get the words out of my mouth.
[1:33:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like can you please just stop for a second, but it's like the minute she says that.
[1:33:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think it goes back to earlier in the episode where he, he like sets rules for her and he kind of, like we saw it on their date where he's like, you will not speak to me this way.
[1:33:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You will not do this.
[1:33:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like it's very, I don't know, I feel like he kind of talks to her like she's a child sometimes and he sets these like,
[1:33:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: expectations of my partner will not do this in a way that's really not healthy, I think, and as soon as he perceives that she has crossed the boundary that he said, which like, you feel free to set boundaries.
[1:33:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think it's less about what he's saying and and more about how he says things that makes me really picky about it, especially when he doesn't
[1:33:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, he just felt compatible.
[1:33:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, exactly.
[1:33:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Their communication styles are so astronomically different.
[1:33:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But truly, it was the way that he physically got up, hand in face.
[1:34:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And Belgian police got to tap him back and like, yeah, calm that, like, you know, that was a much bigger cross line to me than her saying shut the fuck up.
[1:34:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: in my opinion.
[1:34:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I mean, Mech has just, I don't know if he's passed out, but he's not moving respond to nothing.
[1:34:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The next thing we see is, Devon saying, I'm leaving.
[1:34:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then there was a weird shot because now Mech has gone.
[1:34:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Bell has switched seats to sit with her on the couch where Mech was.
[1:34:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then we just see Caitlin hopping over the couch.
[1:34:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: to go out to Devon and you know this brought to mind earlier when she was telling Cameron and Michelle, oh maybe the fighting is forplay for us and I won.
[1:34:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, because she enjoyed this because this is what feels familiar.
[1:34:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Now I'm guessing everything all the toxicity but there could be onto something like again she comes alive when this happens and just that comment just came back
[1:35:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, no, you're not wrong.
[1:35:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think when I first watched it again, I, I just have not liked Devon for so long that I, and I have felt really bad for Caitlin's sort of internet, you know, hate that I, and you know what, I hate men, whatever.
[1:35:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I will not side with any of these men, but when I first watched it, I was really watching it of like, okay, Devon is really overreacting.
[1:35:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then the second time I watched it, it's like,
[1:35:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, she really does talk to Maca very differently.
[1:35:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She does look like she enjoys the conversation.
[1:35:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, she writes up.
[1:35:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She does, she really does.
[1:35:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And like, I think two things can be true, right?
[1:35:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think Haley and can be in the wrong and Devon can be in the wrong.
[1:35:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And they can't actually be a bad.
[1:35:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: couple, of course.
[1:35:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I almost always, I'm like, team will like Courtney was my exception this season, where I was like, I can't but yeah, it's I did have to walk you again from from the mindset of, let me see what everybody else is saying.
[1:36:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[1:36:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, you're not wrong.
[1:36:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You're not wrong.
[1:36:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There's something to it, but there was just not a good match.
[1:36:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know, from the beginning for this, but also the other thing.
[1:36:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Why did we not get a confessional from Bell Jolie?
[1:36:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What was her thoughts on the conversation and the debrief of that?
[1:36:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We don't get confessional from a lot of people a lot of times during this, which, okay, something else to be noted that it's very different this season than any other season.
[1:36:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Historically, you film a scene and then you get taken off to the side to answer questions.
[1:36:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They go out OTF's on the fly.
[1:36:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay.
[1:36:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But historically, once a week, you sit down for like four or five hours with producers and they say, Put yourself in this moment.
[1:36:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: and you have to talk as if you are there.
[1:36:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This season, they're sitting down once at the end of the season and answering everything at the end because the hair's the same, the outfit's the same to make it happen.
[1:37:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And
[1:37:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It seems like since they're not, it doesn't seem to be that they're doing these weekly sit-down interviews.
[1:37:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're not getting nearly as much insight from the people regarding things that happen.
[1:37:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, obviously, it's not happening in real time, but it's much harder to put yourself six weeks back and say what your headspace was without having six weeks worth of other things cloud.
[1:37:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When you're doing it one week at a time, it's much more accurate.
[1:37:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I have a question.
[1:37:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I've been wondering about the timing based on Mecca's hair?
[1:37:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, it's done now and we're a week five.
[1:37:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But the professionals are still week one to four hair and nail polish.
[1:37:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So was it, like, I guess I should be on the lookout for afterwards, I don't know.
[1:37:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, I would say it seems to me,
[1:38:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like it's it's very clear from the Courtney like Courtney and Nick's split that her like last little sitting on the couch in her sparkly dress moment is
[1:38:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: done after everything is said and done because she's like, all right, go find me a new husband.
[1:38:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, but if you look at those throughout the whole season, her hair does not change at all.
[1:38:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Her makeup does not change at all.
[1:38:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Her like everything is exactly the same, which makes me think it's all done in one shot.
[1:38:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, yeah, they can tell you to come in looking the same, but it's not going to be that accurate.
[1:38:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think it's back interesting.
[1:38:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Good thing to look out for.
[1:38:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Maybe they did it twice.
[1:38:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We didn't have the month of her series, like the halfway, but this isn't maybe at some point they said I don't halfway, and then they did another set.
[1:38:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But like I said, if you look at everybody's grooming, and those couch interviews, it looks like it's all done at the very end.
[1:38:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Wow, what is this?
[1:38:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: End of an era.
[1:38:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He says that, where am I?
[1:39:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, yeah, so yeah, we didn't get, like we were talking about a virtualized point of view.
[1:39:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So we got one from Devin though, because Dev, right, was it a confessional where he says it was Flirty?
[1:39:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, right?
[1:39:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[1:39:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I don't know why we didn't get one or maybe she was not to show it.
[1:39:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't know.
[1:39:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's another thing for the question and she was basically like, I wasn't bothered.
[1:39:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, she could have given enough answer and it wasn't worth showing.
[1:39:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[1:39:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay.
[1:39:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So that's what I was curious about.
[1:39:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But to wrap things up the morning after, Devon just comes in to bed with sub.
[1:39:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's eyes blue blood shot.
[1:39:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like maybe they were drinking a lot tonight, but not maybe they were.
[1:39:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We saw this.
[1:39:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[1:39:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They were.
[1:39:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he says he can't get through to her like, you know, she was wearing his chain and she's like, oh, that's so high school, dismissing everything that he's saying.
[1:39:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he was like, we have nothing to hold on to.
[1:39:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's like, listen, I don't even give a fuck about all of that.
[1:39:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, we just talked about me not being silenced all these buzzwords.
[1:40:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you're just being disrespectful.
[1:40:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he says, everything else we can work through, but not to disrespect.
[1:40:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's unhealthy.
[1:40:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You've had all these toxic relationships in the past.
[1:40:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Not cool.
[1:40:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I am not a fan of people weaponizing things that people told you in confidence.
[1:40:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she told you that.
[1:40:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She told you how sensitive it would be when you were shaking afterwards.
[1:40:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And to just bring that up, you could have made your point without bringing that up.
[1:40:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, not through at all for saying that.
[1:40:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he says it again.
[1:40:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I knew you want me to see you here.
[1:40:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You understand you, but he's not going to deal with it.
[1:40:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he is tried and she does not get it.
[1:40:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It looks like he was breaking up with her, but she's like, you're not going to do it before me.
[1:40:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So she says, what the hell am I doing here?
[1:40:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If I saw my friends doing this, I would strangle them.
[1:40:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There's something about this season.
[1:40:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like when you see a lot of natural violence.
[1:40:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, what anger myself.
[1:40:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Strangle myself guys.
[1:40:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Let's stay away from them.
[1:40:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Strangle him shoot him.
[1:40:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What's happening here for those rights and women's wrongs, however, it's a little violent.
[1:41:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, like we're going to follow that.
[1:41:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she was like, if I saw them go through this shit, so in my head, we're already done.
[1:41:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So when I said those things, I thought we were done.
[1:41:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So we didn't have a matter of what happened.
[1:41:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I didn't care.
[1:41:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was worried how you were going to see it.
[1:41:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is what juvenile I feel.
[1:41:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: back into so many corners, I feel like a bad person.
[1:41:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We do not see eye to eye, we are not compatible.
[1:41:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think calling it is the best choice.
[1:41:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like medicine after death.
[1:41:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, I think that's what he was saying, but I guess she just made it very clear.
[1:41:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She's like, I'm good here.
[1:41:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't need anything from you and his final words or I am not playing to your patterns of toxicity.
[1:41:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I am not that.
[1:41:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He also laughs the whole time she's talking.
[1:41:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He's holding in laughter.
[1:41:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They, you also will see something that's really interesting.
[1:41:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They don't show in this episode, but in 18, you get a full Ashback from the night before that shows them all partying and drinking and dancing.
[1:41:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And she's like grinding up on Devon.
[1:42:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, they are like,
[1:42:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: clearly very like close and into and it's like weird.
[1:42:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I hate when they pick and choose these little tiny clips.
[1:42:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm like, I would sit and watch the full 12 hours.
[1:42:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, yeah, so I can see the context of everything that happened because how do we go from you guys are grinding on each other but then makeup puts the chain on and like what happens first and where do we fall off and like I do kind of agree with her that it is pretty high school to like,
[1:42:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: sort of gets so mad like at the drop of a dime and and pick on little things, but I think it he was trying to end it.
[1:42:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She decided I'm not going to let you and then he's like laughing at her.
[1:42:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: trying to steal his thunder.
[1:42:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It was a very just dynamic this year.
[1:42:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think he was thinking that he was so ridiculous because he, it's the whole manner for Mars, we're whatever it is, but basically not understanding each other.
[1:42:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And he's just like, are you serious?
[1:42:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she's just like, are you serious?
[1:42:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And they just, she just don't get along.
[1:43:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But going back to what you said about the clips, this is what I'm saying is, is it them being wishy-washy on a roller coaster or is the storytelling choppy?
[1:43:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, it's it's really tough to say and I think the editing has been weird.
[1:43:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't love the thing this season where it's like in past it was Expert comes to everybody's house this episode everybody goes to visit friends this episode month of our series this episode and you really are seeing everybody do the same things at the same time and this season it's like
[1:43:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know who is doing what when and who's seeing which experts and like you can tell by meckas hair you can tell by Adam's beard and his mustache and like different things like this like The nail polish that where you're I'm trying to figure out what is happening in what order and it's really really difficult And I feel like I know a lot of people were saying like oh pasties and for so boring and they put too much in We're missing way too much a lot of 30 so I think
[1:43:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, and to your point, I mean, I was being laughed at last episode because at the dinner party, I was watching their plates one minute when they had that it was really full some people's words were done and then we came back to Felipe and then it was full.
[1:44:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So he shows us that they're not even having the conversations in order.
[1:44:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So a lot of his blind uses those gold.
[1:44:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, let's see through them and know where the drink levels are.
[1:44:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: ours is black now.
[1:44:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, ours being maps is still.
[1:44:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:44:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's more than we're in public stuff like that the first time a lot of the time, like sometimes a little bit and sometimes I have to go back and read look at it.
[1:44:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, so I think that is the benefit of well for me when I don't binge it.
[1:44:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I just watch one and then I'm like, okay, relax, but yes, it's black, but they have to drink covered but not the food because it was just like empty plate full plates and not so anyways, that was the episode, but before we go, we got to do the bouquet and the ashes.
[1:44:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So for this particular episode, who gets your bouquet?
[1:44:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Nobody.
[1:44:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know.
[1:45:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I had that in my head.
[1:45:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, I was watching.
[1:45:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I was like, man, I wanted to give it to Tories.
[1:45:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So bad, but she didn't.
[1:45:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She went back to that man.
[1:45:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I would love to give it to Bella Jolie, but she can't stand up for herself.
[1:45:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And like,
[1:45:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't think in it.
[1:45:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, help, she doesn't say too words to this whole episode.
[1:45:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, Merisa just keeps her mouth shut and I'm like, maybe that's the best.
[1:45:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Maybe I'll give it to her, but really, I've got, I got flowers for no one in ashes for everybody.
[1:45:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, love it.
[1:45:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We're on the same page.
[1:45:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Honestly, my bouquets empty right now.
[1:45:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I had a backup backup backup because now I'm just giving bouquets for who entertained me.
[1:45:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think once I get to Paul because
[1:45:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: when he laid into Felipe, I thought there was an overreaction, but I just enjoyed it so much that he got okay.
[1:45:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So for me, if I had to give a bouquet, it would probably be Nikki just actually standing up and being like, Michelle, that was BS.
[1:45:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And just naturally speaking for truth at that moment where everybody, well at least like, to me, I wish that Bell Julie said something because again, she had given you that speed.
[1:46:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: She's saying it.
[1:46:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I would have clocked it as, are you talking about me girl?
[1:46:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That is not your place.
[1:46:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So Vanilla actually saying it out loud.
[1:46:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I guess I'll give her the bouquet.
[1:46:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So who has ashes.
[1:46:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Everybody.
[1:46:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Everybody.
[1:46:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: All of them.
[1:46:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Every single one of them.
[1:46:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: All of them.
[1:46:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[1:46:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, I think we've got how many couples do we have left?
[1:46:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I guess by the end of the episode we've got.
[1:46:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: five, but six, starting out, and I think we've got five very incompatible couples and then you got Michelle and Cameron and I've got my thoughts on that anyway, so.
[1:46:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And they, they bug me.
[1:46:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I mean, we're in the same page on that.
[1:46:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that's why I was like, I, I feel I hope I was easy on them.
[1:46:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The episodes because I think I'm going too hard on them.
[1:46:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And now I just sound like a year, but yeah, I just see a lot of people are on the same page there.
[1:46:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, my biggest fear with them is I wonder if this is just Michelle and this is how she would have been with anybody.
[1:47:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know, and I think that's what Sean was saying.
[1:47:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, and I do want to point out like I did say I've mentioned a couple of times that Cameron has a new job in Cali, but now he's an assistant coach, not just a he's gotten a promotion, I guess, and it's not a community college.
[1:47:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like a East Bay or something, but I don't know if she moved, I don't know if they're together, but yeah, so there's that, but
[1:47:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I got ashes, my ashes are Mecca, Katelyn, and Devon.
[1:47:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I just tri-factor over there, like I can't look back into this again, two in one episode, the debrief.
[1:47:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You could have just said, oh, look at talk right here.
[1:47:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like you joke about everything.
[1:47:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You like what we don't need to go?
[1:47:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like again, consider Belle Jolie.
[1:47:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, she seems to be here.
[1:47:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I feel like me care more than she does.
[1:47:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But it was just ridiculous, naming, answering that question, and naming two people and saying, I think you're answering the question, that's crazy work.
[1:48:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Um, to me, Caitlyn and Devon, I don't know what y'all are doing.
[1:48:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I really hope they've called it and this is the end.
[1:48:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We don't need any more of this, but um, yeah, they get my ashes for the episode with you.
[1:48:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They get, they get my extra ashes.
[1:48:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Everybody, I got ashes for a little bit of sprinkle for everybody.
[1:48:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Biggest pile.
[1:48:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, as always Clara, it is so fun chatting with you.
[1:48:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm so glad that we were able to get to do this, but can you share with people where they can find you?
[1:48:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Uh, take talk mostly.
[1:48:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I am TikTok Instagram.
[1:48:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I guess, like the Facebook, it's all at Claire Burgess.
[1:48:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And yeah, I go on live every Wednesday evening talking about reality TV if anybody ever wants to pop in and chat.
[1:48:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, and I will put that in the show note.
[1:48:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So you guys can find that.
[1:48:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know where to find me.
[1:48:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Taint talks on all the social media platforms.
[1:48:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Please give me a 5 star rating on Apple podcast and Spotify as always.
[1:49:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Constructive criticism.
[1:49:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you do not like what you hear, go to your group chat.
[1:49:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is a talk behind people's back like everybody else.
[1:49:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And stay subscribed.
[1:49:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So you don't miss out on every other episode.
[1:49:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Until next time, guys.
[1:49:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Bye.
[1:49:24] \[UNKNOWN\]: I'm full.

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