# Hogan in Sports

An episode of [The Science of Personality Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1517116280), 23 Sep 2025, 58 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1134107/episodes/17891791-hogan-in-sports.mp3

In the latest episode of The Science of Personality, Ryne and Blake are joined by Nadine Maliakkal, PhD, a consultant on Hogan's Talent Analytics team, to talk about the work Hogan has been doing in the world of sports. Over the past five years, Hogan has experienced a huge uptick in work with some of the world’s leading sports teams and organizations. Whether it’s helping teams predict performance of NBA basketball players or helping NFL teams draft the best American football players, organizations are really starting to understand the importance of personality in sports. Nadine has been at the forefront of Hogan’s research in this realm, and is the perfect guest to talk about this fascinating topic.

## Transcript

[0:04] SPEAKER_00: People are the most consequential and dangerous forces on earth.
[0:09] SPEAKER_00: Psychology is about the nature of human nature, it's about people.
[0:12] SPEAKER_00: And wouldn't that be useful to know?
[0:14] SPEAKER_00: I can't I can't think of a more quick idea.
[0:32] SPEAKER_01: Dr.
[0:32] SPEAKER_01: Ryan Sherman.
[0:33] SPEAKER_01: Alongside of the PR manager and reference storyteller, Lake Lepp.
[0:37] SPEAKER_01: This podcast explores the impact of personality of life, leadership, and the nature of human nature.
[0:46] SPEAKER_05: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Science of Personality Podcast.
[0:50] SPEAKER_05: I'm your host, Ryan Sherman, along with my co-host, as always, Blake Lepp.
[0:55] SPEAKER_05: Say hello, Blake.
[0:57] SPEAKER_04: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Science of Personality Podcast, episode 134.
[1:02] SPEAKER_04: Today, Ryan and I are joined by Dr.
[1:04] SPEAKER_04: Nadine Maliakal, a consultant on Hogan's talent analytics team, to talk about the work Hogan has been doing in the world of sports.
[1:12] SPEAKER_04: Over the past five years or so, Hogan has experienced a huge uptick in work with some of the world's leading sports teams and organizations.
[1:20] SPEAKER_04: Whether it's helping teams predict performance of basketball players or helping NFL teams draft the best American football players, organizations are really starting to understand the importance of personality in sports.
[1:32] SPEAKER_04: Nadine has been at the forefront of Hogan's research in this realm, and we're excited to have her on to talk about this fascinating topic.
[1:40] SPEAKER_04: But before we get to our conversation with Nadine, if you wish to give us any ideas for upcoming episodes or you want to ask Reiner me a question, shoot us an email at hello at the science of personality.com or follow the science of personality on LinkedIn.
[1:55] SPEAKER_04: Now let's get to it.
[1:57] SPEAKER_04: Nadine, welcome to the podcast.
[1:59] SPEAKER_04: Is there anything else you'd like to share with our audience before we get started?
[2:04] SPEAKER_02: No, just thanks for having me.
[2:06] SPEAKER_02: And I guess now's a good time as any to just say, go pats, and go big red.
[2:14] SPEAKER_05: Well, uh, yeah, not only is Nadine a sports fan, uh, she is also uh and a sports researcher, as we're gonna talk about today.
[2:23] SPEAKER_05: She is also a fantastic iopsychologist, uh, and uh is uh a wonderful member of our research team.
[2:31] SPEAKER_05: Have let's see, Nadine, you've been here for two, I want to say two or three full years, but before that I know you're an intern with us.
[2:38] SPEAKER_05: That's why it's hard for me to remember the exact timeline.
[2:42] SPEAKER_05: And um, you know, I've really been instrumental uh in pushing uh our our work forward in the sports space.
[2:50] SPEAKER_05: So super, super excited to have you with us today.
[2:52] SPEAKER_05: So so thanks for joining us.
[2:54] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
[2:55] SPEAKER_03: And yes, two full-time years with Hogan and then um kind of a year of uh interning, if you will, at Hogan before that.
[3:03] SPEAKER_03: So it's exciting to be here like with you guys for your podcast and to talk about this exciting work we've got going.
[3:10] SPEAKER_04: Well, Nadine, I mean, for our listeners, I mean, I don't know, there might have been one or two episodes in our entire uh catalog where we have not brought up the topic of sports in some capacity.
[3:23] SPEAKER_04: So I can only imagine that our listeners are um uh they're not surprised that we're we're gonna discuss this topic today, but uh we're excited to have you on the podcast.
[3:35] SPEAKER_04: And you know, first and foremost, you know, you're very passionate about the work Hogan is doing in the world of sports.
[3:42] SPEAKER_04: So have you always been interested in sports, or is this something newer for you?
[3:47] SPEAKER_04: You know, could you just give our audience some background on how your work in this area evolved?
[3:52] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[3:53] SPEAKER_03: Um, so not newer, but I definitely hit new heights in my sports fandom, if you will, over the last few years.
[4:00] SPEAKER_03: Um, growing up, you know, my parents put me through all the sports.
[4:04] SPEAKER_03: I I did tennis, basketball, soccer, softball, but ballet.
[4:09] SPEAKER_03: I also even dabbled in bowling and a little bit of track and field.
[4:13] SPEAKER_03: So sports were always something that my parents put me through.
[4:17] SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I had an older brother actually that, you know, as early as age three was told that he should be a sports commentator on ESPN.
[4:24] SPEAKER_03: So my family was always big on talking about sports too.
[4:29] SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, I it's one of my proudest moments is that um, you know, in the era of Michael Jordan and Space Jam coming out, I watched that movie so many times.
[4:38] SPEAKER_03: I actually broke the VHS from watching it so many times.
[4:42] SPEAKER_03: So sports has always been integral to, you know, me and and growing up.
[4:47] SPEAKER_03: But I would say that for me as an athlete, it was when I saw Michelle Kwan figure skating on my television for the first time that I knew that that was a sport that I wanted to be a part of, almost to the point that at such a young age, I wanted it to be a part of my identity.
[5:02] SPEAKER_03: So I was fortunate enough to have parents that were on board and had the resources to set me up with all sorts of coaches, take me to all my skating practices, to set me up with the right trainers, because of course, any serious figure skater at a young age is thinking Olympics, of course.
[5:21] SPEAKER_03: Um, but then I moved actually to a different city and a whole new world of skating, figure skating got opened up.
[5:27] SPEAKER_03: And that is the world of synchronized figure skating, and a team sport in figure skating, which you don't usually think of.
[5:33] SPEAKER_03: You usually think of solo skaters or pair skaters, but synchronized figure skating is as a team sport.
[5:39] SPEAKER_03: It's about 12 to 20 people on the ice uh doing a program, doing uh uh skating to music through elements that they're creating.
[5:49] SPEAKER_03: Very much think synchronized swimming, but on the ice.
[5:52] SPEAKER_03: And it changed the game entirely for me.
[5:54] SPEAKER_03: I loved everything that synchronized skating in particular had to offer.
[5:57] SPEAKER_03: Practices were more fun, competition was just as fierce.
[6:01] SPEAKER_03: The idea of you know working as hard as you can with others who also are working as hard as they can all to achieve a goal.
[6:08] SPEAKER_03: You know, it's it sounds silly, but when you're a synchronized skater, you're only as good as your lowest common denominator of this on the sport or in the skill set of the sport.
[6:17] SPEAKER_03: And so to win, you all have to sort of show up.
[6:20] SPEAKER_03: And that really, that whole time of my life fostered such a deep appreciation for sports, athletics, team sports for me.
[6:28] SPEAKER_03: And I was fortunate enough to be in the space of synchronized skating all through college.
[6:32] SPEAKER_03: Um, shout out to University of New Hampshire synchronized skating team.
[6:38] SPEAKER_03: As far as it going into Hogan.
[6:39] SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, go ahead.
[6:40] SPEAKER_05: Sorry, sorry, Nadine.
[6:41] SPEAKER_05: You go ahead.
[6:42] SPEAKER_05: Sorry, I thought you were I was just gonna make a can I just make a quick comment about the skating thing.
[6:47] SPEAKER_05: Yes, I did not realize.
[6:49] SPEAKER_05: I was talking with somebody as we're preparing for this episode, and I said, Oh yeah, no, I I'm uh Nadine was a skater, and I I thought you were a pair skater, and so this is actually news to me that you're a synchronized skater.
[7:01] SPEAKER_05: It what it reminds me of, Nadine, is during the Olympics, I I I became really fascinated this last year with synchronized diving and the impossibility.
[7:11] SPEAKER_05: I think it's just an impossible sport.
[7:12] SPEAKER_05: I don't know, I don't I don't know how these people can actually synchronize their dives at the same moment.
[7:17] SPEAKER_05: I just I'm watching this going, this is actually impossible to do.
[7:20] SPEAKER_05: Like just the dive alone for an individual is incredibly difficult to do, but to do two them at the exact same time is seems impossible to me.
[7:27] SPEAKER_05: Synchronized skating seems even more impossible.
[7:29] SPEAKER_05: I've never even seen it, but just trying to imagine it.
[7:32] SPEAKER_05: I'm like, wait, how you said 12 people on the ice at one point?
[7:35] SPEAKER_03: It can be as you ideally ideal teams are between 12 as many as 20.
[7:40] SPEAKER_03: The sweet spot number is 16.
[7:43] SPEAKER_03: Um, and yeah, you all have to have a very similar skill level to be able to produce the elements in front of the judges um in a synchronized way.
[7:53] SPEAKER_03: Or and it's not fully synchronized, some of these elements, you know, you you sort of it they can be so complex between, you know, they call things like circles.
[8:02] SPEAKER_03: So skating in a circle down the ice, there's pinwheels, so looking like a pinwheel going down the ice.
[8:07] SPEAKER_03: Like it, it there's footwork involved, there's edges that you need to be able to showcase, there's a technicality component, and you all have to emote the music and and and display, you know, your your arms the same way, your heads the same way, you gotta all get the right timing.
[8:23] SPEAKER_03: It's it is quite a complicated uh sport to to go through from both a power sense and uh a team sense and an execution sense.
[8:34] SPEAKER_03: And and it was the best, the best times of my life.
[8:39] SPEAKER_04: Okay, I'm just I'm blown away because I didn't know any of this.
[8:42] SPEAKER_04: So Ryan at least knew you were skate.
[8:44] SPEAKER_04: I had no no clue about any of your background on this.
[8:49] SPEAKER_04: So Yeah, yeah.
[8:50] SPEAKER_04: So okay, I'm all right, go ahead and continue the rest for the second part of the question because I'm still wrapping my head around this.
[8:57] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and and Ryan, you're not wrong about somewhat of me being a pairs skater.
[9:01] SPEAKER_03: I didn't do pairs, but I did do ice dance for a while.
[9:04] SPEAKER_03: Um, that was sort of a a newer avenue within the figure skating world that I entered right before undergrad.
[9:10] SPEAKER_03: So I did a lot of solo individual skating, and then I found the world of synchronized skating, and then sort of another area to keep going in and to keep testing in and competing in was ice dance, which um is an Olympic event as well.
[9:24] SPEAKER_03: It's just the one that they're not, you know, they're not jumping and spinning together.
[9:27] SPEAKER_03: They're they're doing ice dance, which is much more like almost like ballroom dancing on the ice.
[9:32] SPEAKER_03: But yeah.
[9:33] SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, as far as like, you know, how this gets tied into what my my role is as a PhD in industrial organizational psychology, I I always had this idea that I was gonna go back to skating, but I need to meet another goal of mine, which is to be able to research, teach, and practice in the field of IOSYC.
[9:54] SPEAKER_03: Um, these goals were really important to me.
[9:56] SPEAKER_03: And so I hung up my skates, and hopefully that's temporary, to devote myself to this new craft.
[10:01] SPEAKER_03: And when I went to the University of Nebraska at Omaha for my PhD, my love for Boston sports in particular established, especially the Patriots.
[10:10] SPEAKER_03: I was fortunate enough to go through undergrad with a Super Bowl win happening and the Red Sox winning the World Series.
[10:16] SPEAKER_03: It was a great, a great time to be a college student.
[10:19] SPEAKER_03: And I got to Nebraska.
[10:21] SPEAKER_03: I got to Omaha and I was not prepared for collegiate sports taking over my life, specifically with football.
[10:27] SPEAKER_03: And the Nebraska Corn Huskers also have um a wonderful volleyball team.
[10:31] SPEAKER_03: We're one of the best in the nation.
[10:33] SPEAKER_03: So being in the collegiate sports world unlocked a whole new space of fandom for me.
[10:38] SPEAKER_03: So I adopted the Cornhuskers very quickly.
[10:41] SPEAKER_03: And being an avid football watcher, I went at least five days a week watching games between college and pros.
[10:48] SPEAKER_03: So, you know, as you go through your PhD program, what, like seven years, and you're, you know, spending your free time watching college sports or watching pro sports, you kind of start thinking, hey, maybe it'd be cool to make a career and be an IO in this space.
[11:03] SPEAKER_03: Um, but Hogan is actually uh, you know, I interned here, I mentioned earlier, or Ryan actually brought attention to how I it was an intern a few years back, and I really, really wanted to get the job that I have right now at Hogan, which is providing, you know, assessment-based insights to help people with their talent management needs, whether that's selection or development.
[11:25] SPEAKER_03: And so when Hogan sort of entered the chat, if you will, of my career, and I was thinking, hey, if I were to work anywhere in a company internally, it'd be for a sports organization.
[11:35] SPEAKER_03: When I found out that Hogan also works with sports teams, it just felt like, I don't know, the best of both worlds couldn't have collided better for my career.
[11:44] SPEAKER_03: So I it really, it really just made sense for me to continue to pursue this space that Hogan's has been had been in before I got here and to and to really see it grow and really um lean into it because I think it's really important.
[11:58] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, well, uh I mean we're really grateful too, Nadine, because uh, you know, uh Blake and I have been talking on this podcast about sports and various episodes, but really just over the last you know handful of years, really since you you came on, um, has our research in this space taken off?
[12:21] SPEAKER_05: So um, you know, and I and I know we're gonna dig into that some of that research here today, but I just want to say, you know, from my perspective, we're really appreciative of your interest in it coming on here because I'm not sure how deep we would have been able to get into this space.
[12:37] SPEAKER_05: Oh, well, yeah, we had a couple of sports teams reach out to us, but you know, um you did an amazing presentation uh back in uh what was it, January, February of this year to a large audience of uh sports psychologists, which is actually kind of interesting, I guess when you think about it.
[12:54] SPEAKER_05: This is the the group that we've really gotten in with is this group of clinical sports and team psychologists.
[13:02] SPEAKER_05: Um you might have thought, oh, we're talking with general managers about players, and and we're doing some of that, but it's really the sports psychologists.
[13:10] SPEAKER_05: I mean, well, uh just any reactions that they need, do you think that that was sort of the logical place for us to come in?
[13:17] SPEAKER_05: Or how how do you feel about those relationships that we've established there?
[13:21] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think it's so interesting and and going back to why I I see so much value with with Hogan and in general, just equipping the sports industry with personality insights because it can be it can be tackled in so many different angles or tackled in so many different ways.
[13:38] SPEAKER_03: Like when it comes to the clinical psych side of things, you know, the I think the intrigue there is oh, cool, you have an assessment around you know, normal personality that will allow me to better understand these players, to better understand where they're coming from, why they're you know, why they're you know, behaving the way that they are, how to get them out of their head, you know, and it's great that we have the specific assessments that we do that tap into the bright side, tap into the dark side, tap into the values.
[14:08] SPEAKER_03: And so it's it is a natural fit for those in the clinical psych space that are helping these athletes get out of their own head, equipping them with personality insights is almost like a no-brainer.
[14:20] SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, the other angle of that is is like, you know, the the organization leadership, uh uh more of the the corporate space, if you will, that sports is is really becoming, if not already has become.
[14:35] SPEAKER_03: And so of course we've been playing in that space um as as people providing personality insights to drive selection and development of of really any any employee in an organization.
[14:46] SPEAKER_03: So it it is really cool to see sort of the versatility that Hogan can bring to such an industry.
[14:53] SPEAKER_03: Um, it's really cool.
[14:54] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well, that was kind of you know what my next question was going to be is, you know, why are these sports organizations, you know, interested in leveraging Hogan?
[15:02] SPEAKER_04: Because, you know, that that wasn't our initial background.
[15:05] SPEAKER_04: It probably wasn't even initially what Dr.
[15:07] SPEAKER_04: Hogan set out to do whenever he was building these assessments.
[15:10] SPEAKER_04: So, how did Hogan find itself in the world of sports?
[15:13] SPEAKER_03: You know, it's so funny that you say that because I agree entirely with what you just said.
[15:17] SPEAKER_03: It wasn't necessarily uh Dr.
[15:19] SPEAKER_03: Hogan's, you know, like beginning.
[15:22] SPEAKER_03: Oh, I'm gonna create this so that we enter the sports world, but it's kind of wild actually to see what came out, you know, in the in as early as the 1980s, right?
[15:31] SPEAKER_03: With social analytic theory and these assessments and how nicely they fit into the world of sports.
[15:36] SPEAKER_03: So, you know, when it comes to organizations, there there are a lot of similarities between sports organizations and the the companies and the businesses we've been um working with for the last 30 plus years.
[15:50] SPEAKER_03: You know, both sides of the house are talking about performance.
[15:54] SPEAKER_03: They're talking about working in teams and groups and organizations.
[15:57] SPEAKER_03: They talk about leaders.
[15:58] SPEAKER_03: The context is just what makes things feel so different, right?
[16:02] SPEAKER_03: But sports world, corporate world, they're all still using the same language.
[16:08] SPEAKER_03: They're still all pursuing goals, hoping to hit new heights in their performance.
[16:12] SPEAKER_03: And, you know, what's interesting too is we also in both spaces talk about effective and ineffective leadership.
[16:18] SPEAKER_03: So it makes a lot of sense that Hogan fits in this space, but why would they come to Hogan's door specifically is a whole other ballgame.
[16:27] SPEAKER_03: You know, if we think about the sports industry and we think about um athletes, you know, they know assessment is important.
[16:34] SPEAKER_03: They want to predict who is going to be successful, especially when it comes to, for example, the the athletes that are in, let's say in the NFL drafted or or the coaches, coaching selection is so important.
[16:46] SPEAKER_03: And so it just makes sense that they know about this world of assessment and they understand the importance of things.
[16:52] SPEAKER_03: Let's just take the athletes, for example, the importance of um the physical aspects of the game.
[16:58] SPEAKER_03: But with sports organizations being the sort of total new machine that they are these days, I mean, just think about some of those rapid shifts, those seismic shifts that have been happening in um the sports industry between the professionalization of collegiate athletes, so name, image, likeness deals, uh, advanced analytics, helping people understand and evaluate performance of talent, teams, and organizations.
[17:22] SPEAKER_03: I uh Deloitte and PWC have also, for example, put out these sports industry outlooks that have talked about innovations and fan engagement and the globalization of sports and you know, record high valuations of sports franchises.
[17:35] SPEAKER_03: These are all things that are sort of bridging the sports context that we sort of think about in isolation, but also like bringing it closer to the spaces of businesses that we work with around the globe.
[17:48] SPEAKER_03: And so to me, it makes a lot of sense that they are looking into assessments that help them better understand individuals, get a read on talent that go beyond what they've been doing before.
[17:57] SPEAKER_03: And I think I think that's where personality gets cued.
[18:02] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I think Nady, yeah, you're exactly right in the sense that yeah, you know, i if you're any kind of a sports fan at all, or if you've been watching sports in the last, say, 20, 30, 40 years, everybody knows, just like in the business world, how important talent is.
[18:19] SPEAKER_05: Uh and evaluating that talent is critically important, particularly in the sports world, because okay, in the business world, uh, we know evaluating talent is important.
[18:29] SPEAKER_05: If you make if you make a mistake, it's very costly.
[18:32] SPEAKER_05: I feel like in the sports world, the mistakes are even more costly because you often only get one chance to evaluate that talent.
[18:40] SPEAKER_05: The way the way professional sports, uh at least you know, things like the NFL or the NBA are set up, you have to draft a player.
[18:49] SPEAKER_05: Um, you you can't say I'm gonna sign all these players and hope that one of them works out.
[18:54] SPEAKER_05: You only get to pick one player, and if you're wrong about that one player, it could be years of consequences from from that from that uh poor judgment of that mistake.
[19:05] SPEAKER_05: And so evaluating talent uh is important.
[19:10] SPEAKER_05: And I think the other recognition here is that uh is sports franchises, sports teams have started to recognize the value of evaluating talent beyond just that on the field sort of performance, beyond just physical attributes, the things that sort of everybody can see with their eyeballs.
[19:28] SPEAKER_05: Um I don't know.
[19:29] SPEAKER_05: What do you think, Nadina?
[19:30] SPEAKER_05: Does you think that's the the big driver?
[19:32] SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, I mean that resonates so much with me these days, especially because, you know, with the stakes being so much higher, like sports organizations that, like I said, they're they're brand, they're like almost like brand new machines.
[19:45] SPEAKER_03: Like they are innovating and and going so far with every aspect of the industry.
[19:51] SPEAKER_03: And it that's the same for athletes in particular.
[19:54] SPEAKER_03: I was actually, you know, Tom Brady actually just did some media rounds over the last couple of weeks.
[19:58] SPEAKER_03: I I want to say that was either in preparation for the the recent Kansas City Chiefs Eagles game or potentially uh the Raiders game that happened, uh, the last Raiders game that happened.
[20:09] SPEAKER_03: And it was interesting.
[20:11] SPEAKER_03: He he calls out that it's not all about physical performance.
[20:16] SPEAKER_03: It's not all about the stats you produce.
[20:18] SPEAKER_03: He actually emphasized, and I'm I'm not even kidding, it's amazing that he said these words, but he talked about the importance of things like work ethic and drive and determination and discipline, all things that Robert Hogan and Hogan Assessments have been one, theorizing about, you know, for over 30 years, but also predicting um performance or predicting these behaviors um through personality.
[20:42] SPEAKER_03: So it's really uh a really exciting time um for sports and and for uh honestly Io psychologists.
[20:50] SPEAKER_04: Well, and also think about we talk about the cost of making the wrong hire just to to everyday organizations, you know, and how how much that could just cost you from a monetary standpoint.
[21:02] SPEAKER_04: But I mean, think about the payroll of these organizations.
[21:06] SPEAKER_04: I mean, even the lowest person on an NFL team is getting paid what$300 and something thousand dollars, you know, and that's just there's 54 players on each team, but then think about the the CEO as being the quarterback.
[21:21] SPEAKER_04: I mean, they are making as much or more money than most of these top CEOs in the country.
[21:25] SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's you make the wrong decision there, that is a huge cost to your organization.
[21:33] SPEAKER_04: So it's uh assessments just make sense.
[21:36] SPEAKER_03: So it and and what they've done before was working, but how do we get how do we get better?
[21:43] SPEAKER_03: How do we get better at predicting success?
[21:45] SPEAKER_03: And I think that's that's why people have looked to alternative assessments, especially in the athletic space beyond, you know, physical performance and even cognitive ability.
[21:53] SPEAKER_03: So it's it's exciting in the athlete space and and even and even like you know, with these sports organizations.
[22:00] SPEAKER_03: Being the way that they are, functioning more like businesses, they're taking a look at, you know, how who's going to be, you know, the next coach?
[22:07] SPEAKER_03: Who's who should we be hiring to be a part of this organization?
[22:10] SPEAKER_03: And so as I mentioned before, there's there's many sort of uh there's a there's a great versatility to what we do in this in the sports industry.
[22:20] SPEAKER_04: Well, with our assessments.
[22:22] SPEAKER_04: Well, let's dig into some of the some of the stuff you've been doing because Hogan is working with basketball teams, American football teams, and other sports organizations at the highest levels.
[22:32] SPEAKER_04: So let's start with the work Hogan is doing in the NFL.
[22:35] SPEAKER_04: Uh, what are some of the ways NFL teams are leveraging Hogan?
[22:40] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so a lot of it is um driving understanding of players um before they get drafted, just to understand who they are as people, how are they showing up?
[22:50] SPEAKER_03: And assessments provide this really nice standardized way to understand player across other players or you know, to see how are they on ambition, how are they on power, these things that give insight into the player, but also, you know, what are their derailers?
[23:09] SPEAKER_03: What's going to get in their way?
[23:10] SPEAKER_03: And so uh I think the biggest thing that um is worth worth talking about is how we provide personality insights to these players um before to these organizations about players before they're getting drafted.
[23:24] SPEAKER_03: So that's one major use case is is understanding of our of the players that they could be drafting.
[23:33] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I I think that's the area where we've seen the most work in the NFL.
[23:37] SPEAKER_05: I I think you know, Nadine, when I think about the NFL, and I know you're gonna talk a little later on about some of the data, some of the some of the results we have uh with some looking at on-the-field performance from NFL players.
[23:51] SPEAKER_05: One of the things that comes to mind for me is the struggle of predicting performance in certain positions.
[23:58] SPEAKER_05: And I think more and more we are seeing that certain positions that really rely heavily on physical abilities are sort of easier to predict performance than ones that uh require not just physical abilities but also things like reaction time, uh things like film study.
[24:19] SPEAKER_05: Uh, you know, so position like so again, if you look at the NFL draft over the last say 10 years, teams have been pretty good at predicting the performance of players like wide receivers or players like uh defensive ends, where that's mostly about your physical ability.
[24:37] SPEAKER_05: Uh but they've struggled predicting performance on things like middle linebackers whose job it is to sort of captain the defense.
[24:44] SPEAKER_05: Um they've struggled to predict the performance of uh positions like um quarterbacks, of course, uh, because it's the same kind of issue, right?
[24:52] SPEAKER_05: Again, your job is to sort of captain the offense and predict about what's going to happen, have some sort of um uh larger understanding of the game, which again requires that kind of film study.
[25:04] SPEAKER_05: So I I mean, is that the kind of thing where you think we have the most value?
[25:08] SPEAKER_05: Or do you think there's, you know, uh or or or I don't know, what are your thoughts on that generally?
[25:14] SPEAKER_03: Well, honestly, some of that is just interesting in and of itself because you know, we've got a great scale called learning approach, for example, where we can better understand, oh, is this person gonna enjoy the more formal education side of things and you know, sitting in like a classroom type setting to learn, or are they gonna want to be on the field and practicing it and taking what they've learned and applying it on the job?
[25:38] SPEAKER_03: Like I think we have insights that even tap into what you just said there, Ryan, just by having certain scales that we we assess.
[25:45] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think it also, although we're not necessarily in the camp of predicting uh like performance stats, although we have done that and we have found some relationships actually that are pretty interesting between personality and these sort of performance stats in the game.
[26:02] SPEAKER_03: I think we're also getting at some of those other areas of performance that that make all the difference.
[26:08] SPEAKER_03: Going back to, you know, the idea of how important work ethic is, um, discipline.
[26:13] SPEAKER_03: Uh, you're are you gonna show up to practice every day?
[26:16] SPEAKER_03: Are you gonna give it your all?
[26:17] SPEAKER_03: Like how coachable are you?
[26:19] SPEAKER_03: I think coachability is something we've talked about forever in the world of Hogan.
[26:23] SPEAKER_03: And that is just as important to understand about a player in in sports, right?
[26:28] SPEAKER_03: Uh you need to have players that are going to listen, they're going to apply what they've learned, and they're going to execute.
[26:35] SPEAKER_03: And those are things that we can give line of sight into through through personality.
[26:40] SPEAKER_03: So I think it's like where we shine the most is some of those, uh, some of those intangibles that that Tom Brady alluded to that helped him, you know, go from being uh sort of no nothing to look at after his time in Michigan, but then everything to look at for for honestly, for the rest of football's time.
[27:03] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, yeah, they still show like his photo from like the the combine, whatever he was drafted.
[27:09] SPEAKER_04: What was he like a seventh-round draft pick?
[27:11] SPEAKER_04: Um or he's very late round, which for maybe some of our audience that doesn't follow the NFL, then you know that would be like the last round that you could be picked in um in the NFL draft.
[27:23] SPEAKER_04: But then he just turned in and evolved into the greatest quarterback that we've ever seen to this point.
[27:29] SPEAKER_04: So uh Tom Brady is an excellent example.
[27:32] SPEAKER_04: Um Nadine, we have a significant amount of data on NFL players who have been drafted over the past few years, and you know, we monitor their performance in the years following.
[27:43] SPEAKER_04: So, what are some of the things that stand out with regard to personality and who performs well based on the data that we've collected thus far?
[27:51] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so um lucky enough to be able to work with so much data from the NFL for people who before they enter the draft or before they got drafted or not drafted, I should say.
[28:04] SPEAKER_03: And we've looked into that data on football players to see what are they like personality-wise?
[28:11] SPEAKER_03: How do they differ from those that are not drafted?
[28:13] SPEAKER_03: How do defense players and offense players differ?
[28:16] SPEAKER_03: Um, can we predict, you know, performance outcomes?
[28:20] SPEAKER_03: Because that's the beauty of sports too, is there's a lot of data available on the internet around this.
[28:25] SPEAKER_03: It's it's such a high-stakes environment, right?
[28:28] SPEAKER_03: That everybody is is tuned into from a very data analytic standpoint.
[28:34] SPEAKER_03: And so uh we've been able to look at this data and and show that players on defense, you know, they they tend to be um lower on interpersonal sensitivity, they tend to be higher on moving away scales, like skeptical and reserved.
[28:49] SPEAKER_03: And they tend to value things like security and aesthetics.
[28:52] SPEAKER_03: And um, that's in comparison to offense players, uh professional football players.
[28:58] SPEAKER_03: And what's exciting is we see this um in our data on for on Hogan assessments.
[29:04] SPEAKER_03: And as Ryan mentioned, I did a presentation earlier in front of, you know, various sports psychology professionals, and they said, you got it.
[29:15] SPEAKER_03: Like that's what we see.
[29:16] SPEAKER_03: That's those findings, they make sense.
[29:19] SPEAKER_03: And so that was incredibly validating to see, you know, that the work that we're seeing, the results we're seeing are are making sense to people who have never heard of Hogan before, but we've captured it.
[29:32] SPEAKER_03: And I think also on more of like the prediction side of things, it's been it's been interesting to see that um when linking NFL defense um players on defense, there's things like higher prudence we're starting to see being linked to more tackles and and higher mischievous scores being linked to more sacks um for our defensive players.
[29:54] SPEAKER_03: And I think there's you know, a little bit of like a wonder as to why, but there is this element of you know, higher prudent individuals are are gonna do their job.
[30:05] SPEAKER_03: And what's a defensive person's job but to tackle?
[30:09] SPEAKER_03: And when it comes to sacks, like let's think about the game of sacking a quarterback.
[30:14] SPEAKER_03: You gotta understand what plays they're gonna call and sort of be the one in the no of what they're going to do.
[30:21] SPEAKER_03: So you can you can come out on top.
[30:23] SPEAKER_03: And so it's interesting that we're starting to see some of these scales predict these types of behaviors.
[30:29] SPEAKER_03: There's way more research we need to do, and data collection is is always ongoing, but it's really cool to see that our scales um, you know, predict what we what we know as far as like things like work ethic and discipline and drive and and emotional control, but it it's also really cool to start seeing some of these relationships play out in these more objective performance spaces.
[30:51] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I was gonna say that that was the thing that most surprised me.
[30:55] SPEAKER_05: I I know Nadine, when you grab some of these data and we're looking at um on-the-field performance, I was a little like, I don't know if this is really gonna work because you know, on-the-field performance, I mean, there's so many factors that drive on-the-field performance, including you know, how much playing time do you get, including uh what positions you're playing in, what defense the other team's running, what offense the other team's running, what's your scheme for that week, what your coordinators want to do, what's the play call on a specific play, uh, you know, a physical ability of the players, all of these kinds of things impact that on the field performance that you know psychological components like the things that we measure with our assessments are so far removed in some ways from what happens in that moment during a game that I was sort of like, oh geez, you know, I don't really know if this is gonna work very well.
[31:50] SPEAKER_05: And then it absolutely did.
[31:52] SPEAKER_05: Uh so um, you know, I was really impressed that that worked, and and uh kudos to you for for for digging into it.
[32:00] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's so interesting too, because I'm with you, Ryan.
[32:03] SPEAKER_03: I know it it is something that is almost like, what, why would we use personality to predict those things?
[32:08] SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, it it is still gonna be interesting.
[32:11] SPEAKER_03: And when we're talking about some of the most elite athletes in the world, sometimes those those small things that we don't expect could make all the difference for how someone performs in the space.
[32:23] SPEAKER_03: And and we're talking like the cream of the crop, athletes, right?
[32:26] SPEAKER_03: So uh it's an interesting question as far as you know, is personality getting at just that slight difference that makes all the difference for having success in the in the sport, having success on your job, in your job.
[32:38] SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it's really interesting stuff.
[32:41] SPEAKER_03: And it's been really cool to see, you know, again, things play out the way that we would suspect.
[32:46] SPEAKER_03: You know, for example, like we're not surprised all of our athletes are very high on things like our high on values, like uh power, but also cool to see some of these other scales come to life that you have to take a moment and just think like, huh, I actually could see why that is the case.
[33:02] SPEAKER_03: It's not what I would think right away, but that's that's the beauty of doing this work and doing this research in this space, is it's it's pretty novel insights to be to be a part of.
[33:12] SPEAKER_03: And it'll be interesting to see, you know, how things move forward as we collect more data and as we as we learn more about personalities' role in the sports space and with elite athletes in particular.
[33:24] SPEAKER_04: Well, my high mischievous score did not translate to more sex.
[33:28] SPEAKER_04: I can say that.
[33:30] SPEAKER_04: So that's one anomaly in the data, but but that is very interesting though, because it kind of it kind of makes sense, you know.
[33:40] SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, the the people in a defensive end position, I mean, it it's a matter of you know, seconds or split seconds that make a such a huge difference, but they've got to kind of outwit the people in front of them.
[33:53] SPEAKER_04: Um, they've got to kind of you know figure out these different ways to get around them.
[33:57] SPEAKER_04: And you know, I can see where that mischievous, you know, maybe it's it's a little trickery in how they would get around a left tackle or a right tackle, just try to get to the quarterback, you know, or or or shed a block from the line or from a running back that might be in their way.
[34:12] SPEAKER_04: But uh it's it's really fun to watch.
[34:14] SPEAKER_04: And that's also a position that is be it is evolved into being possibly the most uh the position where a person could make the most money if they're really good at it.
[34:28] SPEAKER_04: Um you know, maybe outside of a good quarterback.
[34:31] SPEAKER_04: But that's just fascinating to me.
[34:33] SPEAKER_04: So that was kind of part of my next question was about the differences between high performers on offense versus high performers on defense.
[34:40] SPEAKER_04: So you talked a little bit about defense, but can you maybe dive in a little bit more on the on the offensive side or maybe maybe what some of those different positions look like and what what scales maybe stand out?
[34:52] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so a defense, it's interesting.
[34:55] SPEAKER_03: A lot of the sort of, or sorry, with offense, it's interesting.
[34:59] SPEAKER_03: Uh what we see there is almost like more of the like a team player uh scales coming through.
[35:06] SPEAKER_03: So they're higher on interpersonal sensitivity in comparison to players on defense.
[35:12] SPEAKER_03: They're also lower on some of those moving away scales, so like skeptical and reserved and and even leisurely and bold.
[35:20] SPEAKER_03: Um, and then also their their value of affiliation is higher than defense players.
[35:27] SPEAKER_03: And so it's interesting to see when it comes to the offense, um, offense side of things, there is this a bit more of a team nature to how they how they show up, um, or a team-oriented nature to how they show up.
[35:42] SPEAKER_03: And and I think that's really interesting and makes a lot of sense because when we think about some of these offensive players, you know, they're a little bit more uh jovial, they're a little bit more, they tend to be a little bit more leadership oriented, they tend to, you know, have bigger personalities.
[35:57] SPEAKER_03: And so to see that come through as far as um the data, it's really interesting to see and and something that um I I'm looking forward to seeing, you know, more with.
[36:10] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, Nadine, one of the things I'm curious about concerns sort of like culture fit.
[36:15] SPEAKER_05: I mean, that that's a thing that a lot of people talk about, not only just in the in the case of fitting with your team and your organization, but just sort of fitting in the world of professional sports, or in this case in the NFL generally.
[36:28] SPEAKER_05: Uh any insights you can share about, you know, what kind of personality fits with professional sports?
[36:37] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think if I if I had to say one thing that just seems to be like you gotta have it, otherwise you won't make it very far, is that high need for power.
[36:47] SPEAKER_03: I think that is something that if you if you don't have that high need for power, I don't think you're gonna you're necessarily gonna go all the way for yourself and and you're not necessarily going to push to be to be the greatest.
[37:00] SPEAKER_03: And when you're at that stage of the game, I think that's that's where the value of power can really shine and really show like how far someone is willing to go.
[37:10] SPEAKER_03: I also think some other skills that really come through as far as like uh an elite or professional player are are things like diligent and dutiful.
[37:19] SPEAKER_03: I talked earlier about how important it is to be coachable.
[37:23] SPEAKER_03: Um, and you almost have to be a little bit perfectionistic if you want to go all the way.
[37:28] SPEAKER_03: So, how are you gonna do that?
[37:29] SPEAKER_03: You gotta stay disciplined, you gotta, you know, be able to cancel out the noise and just focus on your craft.
[37:34] SPEAKER_03: You gotta listen to your coaches and and you gotta, you gotta deliver, you gotta execute.
[37:40] SPEAKER_03: And so I think there's uh an interesting dynamic between, you know, very much just absorbing yourself in your craft and your job and and doing everything you can to be the best.
[37:53] SPEAKER_03: And so those those skills really speak to, at least in my opinion, to what we would expect elite professional athletes to to look like.
[38:06] SPEAKER_04: Well, this has been fascinating just talking about the NFL alone.
[38:09] SPEAKER_04: But you know, we do have uh more of an international audience uh as well.
[38:15] SPEAKER_04: So one area we've seen where you know a lot of uh you know European players or Australian players, but you know, players from all over the world are really uh coming into NBA basketball.
[38:26] SPEAKER_04: And that's another area where we've been working on.
[38:29] SPEAKER_04: So let's transition to NBA basketball players and you know what kind of personality characteristics tend to translate to success on the basketball court.
[38:37] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[38:38] SPEAKER_03: So basketball is really interesting, right?
[38:40] SPEAKER_03: It's it's a it's almost feels like a totally different game that we think about the logistics and the setup of like football.
[38:46] SPEAKER_03: Um, but no matter the professional sport, you know, the stakes are still high and personality can still be relevant and plays a factor, you know, uh in in how they play their game.
[38:56] SPEAKER_03: And so we've done some preliminary analyses with um MBA players linking their personality to rookie year performance.
[39:04] SPEAKER_03: And I found that um higher adjustment is linked to more minutes played and points scored, as well as lower interpersonal sensitivity.
[39:12] SPEAKER_03: Um, it's also linked to more minutes played and points scored.
[39:17] SPEAKER_03: And I think that makes a lot of sense.
[39:18] SPEAKER_03: When we think about what the scale adjustment taps into, we're talking about confidence and we're talking about, you know, almost like this propensity to be able to slow down the intensity of the game.
[39:29] SPEAKER_03: So seeing that positive relationship kick in there, it was really cool to see.
[39:34] SPEAKER_03: And then the interpersonal sensitivity, although, you know, in workplaces, we tend to say, you know, it's important to get along with one another and and you know, higher scores on interpersonal sensitivity generally bode well for working well with others, right?
[39:48] SPEAKER_03: But in the world of sports, aggression is is key.
[39:52] SPEAKER_03: You know, you almost expect to see aggressiveness in sports, and quite frankly, you kind of need it to win.
[39:58] SPEAKER_03: So to see that lower interpersonal sensitivity be linked to um the minutes uh played and the points is scored as well.
[40:06] SPEAKER_03: It was also a very interesting insight that really showcases how the sports world is totally equipped to like, you know, have personality assessed in it and provide insights, but it's really what's really the treat for me is to see how scales play out in that particular space in comparison to, you know, a corporate setting.
[40:27] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think that is really interesting, Nadine.
[40:29] SPEAKER_05: I mean, you pointed out adjustment, having that confidence aspect, but also there's this sort of resilience that comes with adjustment too, right?
[40:37] SPEAKER_05: So, you know, coming, you know, battling back from setbacks, uh, you know, handling stress and pressure, which is probably a lot for a rookie, especially if you're coming from playing maybe 30 to 40 games in college to a full NBA season of 82 games, yeah, you know, and being on the road all the time, right?
[40:55] SPEAKER_05: I mean, it's just a very different schedule from I think the the collegiate athlete schedule.
[41:00] SPEAKER_05: Now, of course, some of these NBA players do come from pro teams in Europe, as as Blake mentioned.
[41:05] SPEAKER_05: Um, but the interpersonal sensitivity, I think, is also interesting, right?
[41:09] SPEAKER_05: Because you know, this is the number one predictor of uh good 360 ratings in the sort of corporate environment.
[41:16] SPEAKER_05: So when you're in a corporate environment and you're high on interpersonal sensitivity, people like you, right?
[41:22] SPEAKER_05: That's I mean, uh people who who are high on interpersonal sensitivity are thoughtful, they're they're careful about what they say, they try to make friends.
[41:31] SPEAKER_05: Um and so you get really good ratings on on 360 reports and and typically very good ratings on on overall job performance ratings from supervisors as well.
[41:42] SPEAKER_05: But yeah, so it's really interesting that you know in the MBA, uh, you know, giving in to others' demands, which can make you seen as likable on a 360 in a corporate environment, uh, means you get pushed around in a in a competitive sport.
[41:58] SPEAKER_05: Um, being direct with people seems to have more value in these kinds of environments because you can just tell people, hey, that's not good enough, or uh, hey, I need you to be over here instead of sort of asking like you know, there's sometimes you know, in a fast-paced sport, there's not enough time for politeness.
[42:18] SPEAKER_05: It's more useful just to tell people how it is.
[42:21] SPEAKER_05: And then of course, there's the sort of you know, that that sort of toughness part that comes out with low interpersonal sensitivity as well.
[42:27] SPEAKER_05: Just just um, you know, uh just being having a tougher demeanor probably helps but again, particularly as a rookie coming into the NBA, where some of the veterans may uh want to bully you around a bit.
[42:42] SPEAKER_05: Um, I mean, what do you what do you think?
[42:43] SPEAKER_05: Do you think all those things are at play there?
[42:45] SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[42:47] SPEAKER_03: I mean, whenever I think through this finding, I I always just hear Dr.
[42:51] SPEAKER_03: Hogan saying, Yeah, there's no news and good news.
[42:55] SPEAKER_03: And if everything was good in sports, we'd never like, you know, learn where we can improve.
[43:00] SPEAKER_03: And some of those conversations, they need to be direct, and there isn't a lot of time.
[43:04] SPEAKER_03: And you're talking in such a fast-paced space, and then you're getting on the road to do it again and hope you don't do the same mistakes as before.
[43:11] SPEAKER_03: You have to be direct, you have to be a little bit confrontational and and maybe a lot of bit confrontational, but it really highlights uh a side of interpersonal sensitivity that it makes so much sense, but we don't necessarily, you know, say in in in businesses to you know be lower in interpostal sensory.
[43:31] SPEAKER_03: We're important, it's important to have direct and confrontational sort of conversations, especially around like you know, performance.
[43:38] SPEAKER_03: But that's exactly what these guys are doing.
[43:40] SPEAKER_03: They're performing.
[43:41] SPEAKER_03: And so these conversations have to just, you know, they might be hard to hear, but you need to hear it to be able to get better.
[43:48] SPEAKER_03: So it's it's really interesting.
[43:50] SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I I completely agree with with your analysis there, Ryan.
[43:54] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, Nadine, the other thing that you know stands out to me about this is um It's so tempting when you work in the corporate space to you know decide that these are the right scores on values to have, or these are the right scores.
[44:11] SPEAKER_05: You know, these are the best scores.
[44:13] SPEAKER_05: And we've said forever at Hogan that there that there's no uh you know, there's no perfect profile.
[44:20] SPEAKER_05: It really depends on the job, it really depends on the context.
[44:24] SPEAKER_05: Um there there's positives and negatives to every score in in the assessments.
[44:30] SPEAKER_05: And I think a lot of times people don't believe us or they roll their eyes at that.
[44:34] SPEAKER_05: But this this highlights, I think this work in with athletes really highlights that, right?
[44:39] SPEAKER_05: We've seen, for example, on the MVPI that high tradition is really, really critical if you want to be successful in the NFL.
[44:49] SPEAKER_05: Uh we've seen that low interpersonal sensitivity, as you just mentioned, is important in the MBA.
[44:55] SPEAKER_05: And these are things that in the corporate world, I just saw some research uh a couple of weeks ago looking at at values and saying that uh that uh that low tradition was really important for teamwork, that teams who had low tradition were more, but this was in a very corporate space.
[45:12] SPEAKER_05: That is just it just isn't true in an NFL context.
[45:15] SPEAKER_05: And so I think again, this really highlights it's not that there's one personality profile that's better than others, it really depends on on what you're trying to accomplish.
[45:25] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
[45:27] SPEAKER_03: I I it actually what you just said too, uh going back to values, I think this would be interesting, you know, for for our audience here is what we're talking about is team sports, right?
[45:39] SPEAKER_03: And and the NFL is a team, like the NFL of football, football is a team sport, and the value that these players score lowest on is actually affiliation.
[45:52] SPEAKER_03: And that threw me, you know, because when we talk about affiliation in the higher end, that is, you know, being a team-oriented person, working with others, uh, like finding sort of identity with others.
[46:08] SPEAKER_03: It's it's being about, you know, the organization that you're a part of, and yet they're lower.
[46:14] SPEAKER_03: And lower affiliation, we talk about how it really brings in a task focus.
[46:20] SPEAKER_03: And it goes back to some of those things that I had said earlier about like power and diligent and dutiful and lower interpersonal sensitivity.
[46:27] SPEAKER_03: Like these are all things that allowed them to be the best athlete they can be.
[46:33] SPEAKER_03: And so it's one of those interesting findings that I didn't see coming.
[46:37] SPEAKER_03: I would have thought affiliation would be not the lowest on in the set of values that we examine at Hogan.
[46:44] SPEAKER_03: Uh, and yet it was.
[46:46] SPEAKER_03: And it it made more sense seeing it that way, uh, as far as like, ah, these people are just trying to hone their craft, like no distractions, nobody else, just me and and getting getting my job done.
[46:58] SPEAKER_03: So it's really interesting stuff.
[47:01] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, the thing that stood out to me about the the basketball players, because as a public relations person, you know, I actually spend a lot of time watching interviews of people.
[47:12] SPEAKER_04: Um, and whenever I watch, you know, an interview of a rookie that is, you know, their first time in the NBA, one of the things that stands out is they they always say, well, it's the this the pace of play, the how fast things are moving is so much different than what they were used to, maybe at the collegiate level.
[47:37] SPEAKER_04: And I that makes so much sense that those with a higher adjustment score would be able to, you know, adapt to that that higher pace of play a little bit easier, or at least, you know, kind of not let it get to them quite as as much as a lower adjusted player.
[47:55] SPEAKER_04: So I I think that makes just absolutely perfect sense.
[48:00] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and also the the sort of confidence side of things, I think really, you know, NBA players have to be confident in their moves.
[48:07] SPEAKER_03: They need to be able to deliver.
[48:09] SPEAKER_03: And so it made, yeah, it made the scales that come through across all these analyses that you know we've done at Hogan around the NFL and the MBA and other sports as well.
[48:20] SPEAKER_03: It's just it again, it goes back to, yeah, Robert Hogan.
[48:24] SPEAKER_03: When he started Hogan, wasn't thinking, or maybe it was, but he wasn't necessarily thinking I'm I'm gonna create this for the sports world.
[48:31] SPEAKER_03: But it just goes to show that these insights, they work.
[48:34] SPEAKER_03: They work everywhere, but they also work specifically within the world of sports.
[48:39] SPEAKER_03: And I think that's really something that I love that I get to do, I get to lean into.
[48:45] SPEAKER_04: So you mentioned this earlier, but you know, let's go in a little bit deeper because you you've you've looked at socioanalytic theory's application to sports teams.
[48:54] SPEAKER_04: So, first, can you give our listeners a brief overview of socioanalytic theory and then tell us more about how it plays out in sports?
[49:01] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
[49:03] SPEAKER_03: So, you know, 1982 article by Robert Hogan, Dr.
[49:09] SPEAKER_03: Robert Hogan, uh talks all about the socioanalytic theory of personality.
[49:13] SPEAKER_03: And that theory has a few assumptions attached to it.
[49:17] SPEAKER_03: And first and foremost, it's that we as people, we we always live in groups.
[49:22] SPEAKER_03: There's always other people in the picture.
[49:25] SPEAKER_03: And within every one of these groups, there is some sort of status hierarchy, and there's also a culture or religion that the group uh subscribes to.
[49:36] SPEAKER_03: Also within these groups, there are these people, the people within the groups, they have needs.
[49:42] SPEAKER_03: And those needs are for social acceptance, for status, for meaning.
[49:48] SPEAKER_03: We often refer to these as motives to get along, get ahead, and find meaning.
[49:53] SPEAKER_03: Now, because we have these different motives, we also have you know differences as people in the extent to which we need to get along, get ahead, and find meaning.
[50:03] SPEAKER_03: And we also have differ in our ability to achieve these motives.
[50:06] SPEAKER_03: So one of the bigger things around uh soanic theory is that the way we can achieve these motives or meet these needs is through interpersonal interactions, right?
[50:18] SPEAKER_03: Through the people in the group.
[50:20] SPEAKER_03: And these interactions between people are sort of that ticket to be able to get along, get ahead, and find meaning.
[50:27] SPEAKER_03: And when we talk about the context context of sports, I think society theory just sort of just really comes to life.
[50:34] SPEAKER_03: Um, again, some of those things that I had said before about, I don't know if Dr.
[50:39] SPEAKER_03: Hogan was thinking about this when he was coming up with socially theory personality, but it fits so nicely.
[50:45] SPEAKER_03: So to illustrate, you know, if people always live in groups, so do athletes.
[50:49] SPEAKER_03: It can be the individual athlete and their cadre of individuals, or they can be a team's sport athletes, and and right there inherently, there's a group.
[50:59] SPEAKER_03: Um, and and these athletes, they surround themselves with so many people, right?
[51:03] SPEAKER_03: So coaches, agents, trainers, psychologists, nutritionists, technical specialists, and and when that's just if we think about just the individual sport or the individual athlete.
[51:14] SPEAKER_03: When we talk about team sports and especially like the NFL, that group gets so much bigger.
[51:20] SPEAKER_03: And so, of course, these groups have status hierarchy.
[51:23] SPEAKER_03: So, coaches, managers, owners, officials, referees, leagues, and associations, it can get real macro.
[51:30] SPEAKER_03: And and then there's also a culture or religion, of course, that comes with sports.
[51:34] SPEAKER_03: I mean, when you tune on the Olympics, how many times are you seeing, you know, certain language being used, superstitions being discussed, and legacies that athletes hope to leave behind?
[51:43] SPEAKER_03: So all these assumptions around social theory really, really ring true in this sports context.
[51:50] SPEAKER_03: Now, talking a little bit more about those needs to get along, get ahead, and find meaning, that's where things get a little bit different, right?
[51:58] SPEAKER_03: So when we think about athletes, that need for status compared to the everyday individual has got to be much, much higher, in my opinion.
[52:06] SPEAKER_03: And when it comes to professional athletes in particular, they not only have this greater need for status, but they might also have a greater ability to acquire status, hence them making it to being the most elite in their game.
[52:21] SPEAKER_03: And as I mentioned earlier, you know, we achieve our goals to get along, get ahead, and find meaning through interpersonal interaction.
[52:28] SPEAKER_03: And something else that makes things a little bit more unique in the athletic space or for elite athletes, let's say, is that interpersonal interaction is quite different than the interpersonal interactions we go through.
[52:39] SPEAKER_03: It's on a totally different scale than what we're used to.
[52:42] SPEAKER_03: Um, these people, their performance, these athletes and their performance, it's on an evaluative standard, and uh that is like unlike anything else with those stakes being so high.
[52:53] SPEAKER_03: And and going back to sort of like the sports industry as a whole, as we talked about, the stakes are are higher than ever before.
[52:59] SPEAKER_03: And and so it is just really interesting to think about not only um personality in this space, but also the fact that our assessments and personality are rooted in sociology theory and rooted in this theory that applies so well to this context.
[53:16] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, Nadine, I know you've extended this even further into looking at these sort of, you know, looking at almost what we would in the corporate world call competency models.
[53:26] SPEAKER_05: But um essentially this group of behaviors that coaches, general managers, organizations are looking for in athletes generally, uh, would you care to summarize those sort of what are these critical, what are these essential sort of almost like a big five of personality traits, but it's almost like the these these characteristics that that all coaches are looking for in their athletes?
[53:51] SPEAKER_05: Would you, would you mind sharing those?
[53:53] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[53:54] SPEAKER_03: Uh as far as like competencies that I think are important, um, you know, first and foremost is do you have the discipline?
[54:02] SPEAKER_03: You know, are you gonna come prepared to work?
[54:05] SPEAKER_03: Are you gonna follow schedules and protocols and and you know, show up to practice, show up for your team, for example, and then and drive.
[54:13] SPEAKER_03: Drive is a really big piece of this.
[54:15] SPEAKER_03: If you're not intrinsically motivated to excel, if you're not confident, if you're not feeling in control, if you're not willing to be resilient and persevere, because you know, let's be real, an athlete is putting themselves through so much risk with injuries and setbacks and losses.
[54:32] SPEAKER_03: If you don't have the the ability to persevere and push through and and and get to the other side of it, it it becomes a really a tough space to make a career.
[54:42] SPEAKER_03: I think also going back to it is is the piece around coachability, um being open and responsive to coaching, listening to others, having a willingness to learn and take accountability for your performance.
[54:55] SPEAKER_03: I think these are all things that are important to consider for for any athlete, and especially an athlete that is true trying to make a career out of this.
[55:07] SPEAKER_03: It's this is this is these are the metrics of their job performance, if you will, from a competency standpoint.
[55:14] SPEAKER_04: Well, Nadine, this has been an awesome conversation, but I I do have one final question before we let you go.
[55:20] SPEAKER_04: And that is, what's next?
[55:23] SPEAKER_04: You know, what is the future of Hogan's work in sports look like in the coming years?
[55:28] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, honestly, I mean, I said it earlier, but one of my passions outside of uh figure skating is the research.
[55:34] SPEAKER_03: And so the name of the game is more research and more findings to come.
[55:38] SPEAKER_03: We're actively working.
[55:40] SPEAKER_03: Me and my my task force uh are at Hogan are putting together some really interesting insights that we're looking forward to share when we have them ready.
[55:49] SPEAKER_03: And and honestly, you know, as mentioned, like the the interest in assessing personality and the discipline of IO psychology, it just seems to be more and more attractive to those in the sports industry.
[56:00] SPEAKER_03: And so we're just looking forward to continuing and building our partnerships with sports organizations who are looking to help, you know, their talent management needs or to sit to meet those talent management needs and doing that through personality.
[56:14] SPEAKER_03: So keeping up the work and and only growing from here.
[56:19] SPEAKER_05: Well, Nadine, I just want to say thanks so much for coming on the podcast today to share these insights uh and again reiterate how much we appreciate the research you're doing on this, really digging into uh a level of understanding uh of personality in a context where, as you've mentioned, you know, we might not have thought Hogan would have gone to in its inception, but those insights do uh have an impact in in this world as well.
[56:50] SPEAKER_05: And and we're just sort of the tip of the iceberg of discovery, I feel like, and understanding how uh athletic organizations can uh benefit from from insights like we provided Hogan.
[57:04] SPEAKER_05: And uh I really appreciate the research you're doing because it feels like every day is a new discovery when when you share research with us.
[57:12] SPEAKER_05: So thanks so much for coming on today.
[57:14] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thanks for having me.
[57:15] SPEAKER_03: It's been a great time, and again, really cool to be talking to you guys as a full-fledged io psychologist who's working at Hogan and also in the sports space.
[57:24] SPEAKER_03: So thanks for thanks for the podcast episode.
[57:26] SPEAKER_03: I really appreciate it.
[57:27] SPEAKER_03: And I hope our listeners enjoyed it too.
[57:30] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Nadine, this has been great.
[57:32] SPEAKER_04: Couldn't agree more with Brian.
[57:34] SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, hey, we're gonna have you back on uh in the future because the the work goes on.
[57:39] SPEAKER_04: And so we're we want to find out more about what you're what you learned through the research.
[57:43] SPEAKER_04: So appreciate you being on.
[57:45] SPEAKER_02: Cheers to a part two.
[57:49] SPEAKER_04: And that does it for the Science of Personality Podcast, episode 134.
[57:53] SPEAKER_04: Be sure to join us in two weeks for another fun and informative episode.
[57:57] SPEAKER_04: Cheers, everybody.
[58:00] SPEAKER_01: This has been the Science of Personality Podcast, brought to you by Hogan Assessment.
[58:05] SPEAKER_01: You can access all episodes on our website, science of personality dot com, or on the streaming service of your choice.
[58:13] SPEAKER_01: See you next time.

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